"We who are associated with the so-called reformed evangelical movement, whether because we want to be or because others just make the connection, now look as corrupt and worldly as the despicable televangelists of a previous generation."
Briefcase With A Million Dollars
Did you seen Mark Driscoll's tweet earlier today? He posted this:
How do you define your identity? Pay attention to what you count: Weight? Money? Facebook friends? GPA? Net worth?
Not surprisingly, someone quickly replied: "books sold?" Update 3/12- Please forgive us for leaving out this screen shot.
When the Driscolls' book Real Marriage made The New York Times best seller list, Mark Driscoll likely never imagined the barrage of negative publicity that would follow just a couple years later. Interestingly, Real Marriage has never made the L.A. Times bestseller list…
For two years Mark Driscoll was lauded far and wide as a best selling author — e.g. listen to the opening remarks in this video, which includes the following description:
Pastor of Harvest Bible Chapel, Robbie Symons chats with New York Times Bestseller Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church on location. A deep conversation about the spiritual landscape of North America and what we can do to shine in such times.
Clearly, Driscoll is not what he presented himself to be, and we are left wondering what kind of psychological gymnastics one must do to pretend that he is an acclaimed author.
We must ask the question: What kind of man buys his way onto the NYT best seller list and then acts like he earned his way there, secretly knowing that it's not true? Did Driscoll feel just a tinge of guilt before the big reveal? And more importantly, is this the sign of a deep character flaw?
Just five years ago, Dee and I knew very little about Mark Driscoll. During the summer of 2008 my daughter was required to read his book Radical Reformission because she was on the leadership team for her college ministry. The following February, Driscoll came to our area, speaking at the SEBTS 20/20 Collegiate Conference (along with C.J. Mahaney) and to my daughter's college ministry group. I was NOT impressed with his 'Naked and Unashamed' schtick.
Not long after that Driscoll came under fire for his sexually explicit contextualization of the Song of Solomon at a church in Scotland. It was the first time we realized that Driscoll's controversial material has a tendency to disappear…
So much has changed in the last five years (since Driscoll came onto our radar screen). He has gained much notoriety, but we are fairly certain he's not happy about the attention he has been getting of late. The internet (which just turned 25 today!) is abuzz with news and opinions about Mark Driscoll.
The Atlantic just published an article by Ruth Graham entitled Can Mega Churches Deal with Mega Money in a Christian Way?
Here is an important excerpt:
A church spokesman told Smith that Mars Hill invests in marketing because it wants to reach a large audience, and “we want to tell lots of people about Jesus by every means available.” But that defense didn’t stick for long. On Friday, the church posted a statement on its website calling its work with ResultSource an “unwise” one-time error, and emphasizing that all profits from Driscoll’s book sales have always gone to the church. By Saturday, the church had edited Driscoll’s online biography to remove a description of Real Marriage as a “No. 1 New York Times best-selling” book. (Mars Hill declined to answer questions for this story.)
Even before the ResultSource controversy, Driscoll was one of the most divisive figures in contemporary evangelicalism. Just within the last few months, he has been accused by other Christians of plagiarism, of failing to give credit to his research assistants, and of pressuring departing staff members to sign onerous non-disclosure agreements. With a dissent-averse leadership style, he is faced with a growing community of disgruntled ex-members and -leaders. (I spoke with four of them for this story, and have talked to others in the past.)
Graham then explains that the seven-man board that determines salaries and appoints elders includes two executive elders who are close allies, along with Driscoll himself. She goes on to explain that there may be more serious issues in the days ahead. (see below)
Mars Hill does not publicly report Driscoll’s annual salary. In a current climate of acrimony and scrutiny, that number could become a matter of controversy, depending on how high it is.
(Mars Hill’s most recent annual report lists $12,515,894 in spending on personnel, but does not provide a breakdown of individual salaries. The church has been a member of the the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, a respected accreditation agency, since 2012. The ECFA’s president, Dan Busby, sent me a statement confirming the church’s good standing in light of the fact that it terminated the ResultSource contract before applying for ECFA membership; Busby called participation in schemes such as ResultSource's “unethical and deceptive.”)
Kyle Firstenberg, who served as a salaried executive pastor at the church's Orange County site until 2012, told me that Mars Hill’s finances are “not anything close to transparent.”
Carl Trueman, a professor at Westminster Seminary has just weighted in with a post entitled: Celebrity Pastors A Retrospective. While we wish he would call out individuals specifically, there can be no doubt to whom he is referring. Trueman writes:
…here is the rub: If there are people out there who still believe that there is such a thing as reformed evangelicalism as a trans-denominational movement, if they believe that this movement will play a key role in the future of the church, and if they believe that they are important leaders in this movement, then they need to speak directly, clearly, and firmly to precisely these issues. You cannot be a leader without leading publicly on the major issues and major personalities of the day who impact your movement and your chosen constituency. It is not enough to say 'That person is no longer one of us' when you helped to create a culture in which accountability is not transparent and where your public silence encouraged the big names to think they could do what they wanted and not be held publicly to account. That is where today's problems started.
That accountability question has always been the Achilles' Heel of the evangelical parachurch movement. Now that there are huge sums of money involved, that question is far more pressing and yet far more complicated than ever before. We who are associated with the so-called reformed evangelical movement, whether because we want to be or because others just make the connection, now look as corrupt and worldly as the despicable televangelists of a previous generation.
The longer the Neo-Cals remain tight-lipped about the controversies surrounding Mark Driscoll, the more we believe they will hurt their cause. We agree with Carl Trueman's contention that 'you cannot be a leader without leading publicly'. So far the silence coming from the Calvinista crowd has been deafening. It's time for the leaders of the Neo-Cal movement to issue proclamations regarding these serious issues involving Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill.
Driscoll doesn't hold back from criticizing Joel Osteen (which he did last fall).
Come on guys, MAN UP! It's time for a chorus of voices to speak out about Mark Driscoll's unbiblical and unethical practices.
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 37:1-38:28 1 Timothy 6:1-21 Psalm 89:38-52 Proverbs 25:28
Ha Ha. First!!!! Sorry Eagle!!!
As a “Neo-Cal” pastor who frequently and publicly calls out folks like Mark Driscoll on these issues, and other “Neo-Cals” on things like rape culture, I want to say a few things:
1) Thank you for all you do.
2) Those of us who do what you suggest naturally have much smaller “constituencies” and therefore escape your notice, but we do exist. I mean, if you despise the entire “celebrity pastor” thing and believe in actually shepherding the flock among you (as Peter calls us to do), then you can’t very well spend much time creating a following/cult that gets you noticed on the national stage.
3) Thank you for all you do.
@ rebeccalynn: Congrats!
@ A New Problem:
🙂 Thumbs up.
While I agree that it is long past time for the reformed community to police its own, I am not gonna hold my breath waiting for that to start. It is sad that bloggers and secular new organizations have to do the work that we the church have been called to do, but that seems to have been happening for quite sometime. The really funny thing is how they will just delete some information from a website and act as if it never existed. I assume that since the dumb masses at their weekly gatherings believe everything the leaders say, they must assume the rest of the world will follow along.
@ A New Problem:
Welcome to TWW! We are grateful that you are outspoken on these matters.
I especially liked this portion of your comment:
Blessings to you and your congregation!
A New Problem,
Sure appreciate your comment!
Noooooooooooooo!!!!!!!! 😯 Third!! 🙂
@ Eagle:
Actually, you're seventh – my favorite 'Biblical' number. 😉
Here’s what I posted on Dave Kraft’s blog. I linked the comment to this wonderful blog. I’ll spill the beans about something that you will hear about down the road in great detail. How I repented of agnosticism and sought forgiveness from about 140 people and put my finances and personal reputation on the line. But that’s a story for another day.
—
James 3:1 ESV ” Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.”
Acts 17:10-11 ESV “The brothers[b] immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.”
I respect and commend the bravery of Dave Kraft. The Bible calls all of us to repentance and to humbly admit our sins. I have recently returned to the faith in the past year and did so by repenting of agnosticism and seeking forgiveness from nearly 140 Christians, and reconciling with most of them. I did it in a way where I put my name, and financial reputation on the line. I repented because it was the right thing to do and to honor Jesus and because Matthew 5:23-24 compelled me.
“So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.”
Mark Driscoll needs to repent he needs to stop approaching the altar and stop teaching. What has occurred is that many have engaged in idolatry in worshiping Mark. The sad part is that if he repented not only would I be compelled to forgive him but he would give a great witness to “the Gospel”. Christians today have a problem with repentance. Repentance is not saying I am sorry or expressing regret. Repentance is a turning and redeeming of sin. Mark Driscoll cannot continue as if its business as usual. His sin is damaging “the Gospel” and Christian witness. Consider-
1. His treatment of Paul Petry and Bent Myer
2. His plagiarism of multiple books
3. Gaming and defrauding the New York Times Best Seller list.
4. His abuse of authority
Teaching “the Gospel” is a privilege and not a right. Mark Driscoll thinks its a right. He needs to repent of his abuse of authority.
This is about a chain of events, and a continued pattern. If Mark Driscoll’s sin was dealt with by the church in 2008 than he would not have put Mars Hill 501-(c)(3) listing at risk. “The Gospel” is bigger than Mars Hill. Mars Hill is nothing but a brand. Churches rise and fall in history and yet “The Gospel” continues. The international church will not fall if Mark Driscoll steps down. “The Gospel” is bigger than Mark and needs to be remembered as such. Many people today have turned celebrity pastors into idols. They have replaced them over the Lord and in their own way need to repent of sin. I want Mark Driscoll to repent. Repentance is healthy, its Biblical, and its what each and EVERY Christian is called to do. I learned by repenting to 140 people. Mark Driscoll is not above the Gospel…it applies to him also. Actually if you read James 3:1 it says that teachers are held to a higher standard. Why should Mark Driscoll get a pass when many members at Mars Hill are disciplined or rebuked? Is Christianity going to be ruled by favoritism and is a caste system that places pastors above “The Gospel?”
Members and worshippers of Mars Hill I plead and ask you to practice discernment. If you love Mark Driscoll you will call for him to repent of his fraud he has committed and how he has treated Dave Kraft, Bent Myer and Paul Petry. The only thing that will grow stronger in all this is The Gospel…and that is if it is followed.
With Deep Respect
Eagle
ANP
Your #2 is exactly on point. If celebrity mega stars would begin to act as pastors of the flock they have assigned to them and quit trying to rise to world leader, they would find they have plenty of work to fill the day. I say this all the time, if you spend more time someplace other than the town your church is in, you are not a “pastor” to your church. When men tended a flock they never left that flock. I recently read Ezk 34, let me share just a few choice verses that should cause sleepless nights for pastors who refuse to take care of the sheep.
“7 “‘Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.” and picking up in verse 17
17 “‘As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?
20 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the Lord have spoken.”
Thank you Father that you have sent our true shepherd, your son Jesus. Thank you Jesus for those servants of yours who really take care of your flock and thank you that one day you will judge those who have used and abused your people. May you come quickly Lord Jesus.
@ A New Problem:
Do you mind sharing where you pastor at? I’m honestly curious….
Honestly I think the biggest problem Mark Driscoll has is Mark Driscoll. He believes his own hype, drinks his own kool aid and wants everyone around him to blindly follow with no original thought or speech allowed. He obviously does not understand the scriptures as well as he acts. I feel real sorry for his wife…I bet his ego requires a separate bed it is sooo big! I cannot believe the teachings the church has swallowed coming out of his books with very little dissent until recently. I read one of his old books recently called Death by Love because one of the ladies in my recovery group for grief said there were things in it she could not believe. Pages 150-152 details women as seen by Driscoll and Breshears broke down into four types. But what really offends any survivor of sex abuse is the idea that in one of the paragraphs he calls the woman "Mary" out to repent for what was done to her. So the woman needed to repent for not telling people she was abused and for hiding it, are you gee golly kidding me? I cleaned that up I promise…He uses Romans 1:18. Check it out folks it is in there. Suppression is a very real thing for those of us who have been abused. So this was really hurtful. IT caused an entire discussion in group that was healthy, and our disdain of Driscoll was magnified. His doctrine of blame the victim is alive and well.
Hi friends,
Thanks for the warm welcome 🙂
I try to keep a somewhat low profile, so I was disappointed that a photo appeared next to my original post, but I suppose it is what it is. [MOD: Photo removed.] So for Eagle’s curiosity, I’ll let you know that I’m a very strange animal, actually. Over the last 3 years, I’ve been a stay-at-home dad and a part-time pastor in the Chicago area. I was drawn to TWW because of my experiences with abusive, authoritarian, and egocentric pastors.
Until June of last year, my work with a parachurch ministry had me mostly in PCUSA and ELCA churches, though my preferences run more to the EFCA. From June to December, I was the lead pastor of a “temporary congregation” that came into being from a church split. Now, I continue to work for the parachurch ministry but – for the first time in a long time – I am sitting in a pew with my wife and daughters on Sundays. For a while, at least.
Thank you, A New Problem, for your very telling comment. I hope we get to know you better.
A New Problem wrote:
When will the Reformed(TM) community police their own?
When God Predestines them to. “In’shal’lah…”
Until then, they are too busy trying to climb to POWER like Calvin had in Geneva. “In’shal’lah…”
rebeccalynn wrote:
Don’t forget “I SEE THINGS…” including both ends of the alimentary canal.
Juicing his book onto the best-seller lists…
I was sure the guy would go down in a SEX scandal…
Uh, not really.
This is the problem when using the general media for technical stories. They rarely get the details right as editors tend to dumb thing down to the point of getting it wrong.
TBL came up with the concept of the World Wide Web 25 years ago. URLs and such. Web browsing and all of that. This was and is still a really, really, really big deal. But this sits ON TOP of the Internet. The Internet had to exist for him to come up with the concept of web browsing. Email, FTP, and other things were using the internet before he came up with http://…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet
If any date can be considered the birth of the internet it would be 29 October 1969l
Things then evolved into what we have today. (Sorry but I really like getting that word into this comment. 🙂 )
No back to exposing MD for the power hungry person he is.
You make it sound singular.
@ A New Problem:
I have a history with the Evangelical Free Church of America (EFCA) so we could probably talk in depth!! 🙂
@ Mitch:
AMEN.
rebeccalynn wrote:
I haven't read Death by Love (and don't plan to), but that sounds an awful lot like what has come out about Grace Driscoll. Grace mentions it after the one minute mark in this interview with the ladies on The View.
(WARNING: Triggering / explicit topics are discussed in this short clip).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pALrVyg9pqY
srs wrote:
You've got a point there…
@ NC Now:
Thanks so much for that history lesson. 🙂
@ rebeccalynn:
This reminds me of something I heard yesterday. Someone told me I was “missing something” because I didn’t mention that “for every one of these patriarchal men, there’s a woman enabling him.” Now I do recognize that sometimes women/wives are more into hardcore patriarchy than their husbands, but on the other hand what this statement really amounts to, is a moral equivalency between a man completely controlling his wife’s life (financially, etc.) and abusing her, and the wife just trying to survive the situation. That’s not a moral equivalency, and certainly doesn’t recognize things like control psychology in cultic environments, etc. It p***ed me off pretty bad in the moment.
The reason Pastor Mark is not repenting is because he has nothing to repent of.
Is not a sin to write a book.
He has a strong personality, that’s the way the Lord made him.
The apostle Paul had a strong personality, just ask Barnabas.
If you think you’re going to destroy Pastor Mark, you are sadly mistaken. The Lord is the one who lifted him up and the Lord can keep him propped up because we need Pastor Mark.
He’s God’s mouthpiece for our generation, if you don’t like it, go listen to reruns of Jerry Falwell.
@ Larry Tolbert:
How you can even communicate on this blog with your head so buried in the sand… that in itself is a miracle.
Deb
If Trueman wants accountability then he, too, must man up and say to whom he is referring. His crowd has played games with child sex abuse, pretending that they care but not acting when it does come time to care. Same thing here. I believe they will all talk a good game and then go back to their conference/book deal games.
But I will give him props for saying that his people are NO different than the televangelists. Sex and money-they protect it all. Not only are they as bad as the televangelists who mess with Scripture to shore up their lifestyle, but they are just as bad as men like Bernie Madoff who at least didn’t pretend he was some sort of gospel preacher.
Hope DRiscoll had a nice night in his mansion. Bet he has a fancy espresso machine just like Ed Young Jr. Driscoll and Young-exactly the same except for some nuances on theology.So, what does theology really matter when ti comes down to this?
@ Larry Tolbert:
Once again, a Mark defender exposes his underbelly. You know, if you would send me a first class ticket, i could fly out there and do a “rah rah” meeting (you know, like Driscoll on how to shill his book). Instead i would tell you how to actually write a meaningful comment instead of one like this that everyone will laugh off as an example of Mars Hill theology.
So, just to show you that I, too, can offer free things as a come on, here it goes. You guys never, ever once mention the people who got thrown under the bus-not once!!! No mention of good men like Petry, Meyer and others.
This demonstrates to the world the hole in your heart and the hole in your pastor’s theology. You are just another ho-hum robot who mouths the same old, same old and actually think you have “really told them.” You are hurting yourselves and your idol. Either take a clue or zip the lip. However, knowing Driscoll’s penchant for mouthing off, I doubt you will.
@ Raymond:
Here is my bottom line on these guys. They are sad parodies of Driscoll until the discuss the piles of people under the bus and express concern for them. Until then, they are just foot soldiers for their own little “Dear Leader.” -See North Korea for examples.
Thanks for your help in exposing this fraud by Mark Driscoll. My husband and I are apparently one of the many who received a “free” copy of Real Marriage in exchange for donating to the ministry. I now feel duped and dirty for participating in this scheme. Anyone who says it’s not right to call out MD publicly needs to WAKE UP to reality.
The book was awful too.
@ Raymond:
Aw, now, don’t let him bother you. Feed not the trolls. 🙂
To answer the question at the beginning of the post:
Never. Nobody who is “anyone” in the Neo-Calvinist movement will ever openly admit that one of their big guns is doing anything wrong. Mahaney is still out there, waiting for his bad publicity to go away, Furtick isn’t going anywhere, Piper is saying nothing and hoping that nobody will eventually remember his enthusiastic support of abusive spotlight hogs, and Mark Driscoll will go on his merry way doing what he wants until and unless he is caught doing something that will get him arrested.
Just my two cents, as a Methodist gal shepherding my little flock on the coast.
Larry Tolbert wrote:
I don’t remember anyone here saying that. You must be a drive-by, not reading the comments, thinking you know what’s up while and thinking everyone who doesn’t agree with you is dumb.
It’s what’s in the book that is a sin. [Blaming Grace, exposing Grace (while covering his own sin], stating that certain behavior is acceptable according to the bible when this can’t be proven (this would be called taking God’s name in vain)]
And it’s how he promoted it. He was deceitful, a charlatan, pretending to be a NYT best-seller when he was no such thing. Lying like this is a sin.
@ NC Now:
Thank you for the history. Years ago, in my youth, I dates a guy from MIT. I went to his lab and he played a game with me. he told me to sit down at the computer and have a conversation. Immediately the computer started telling me things about myself. To make a long story short, it was a friend on another computer way in another lab. I remember thinking at the time, “This will change the world.”
Larry Tolbert wrote:
He has a strong personality disorder.
This is what the fall did to him.
Instead of overcoming sin and his personality defects, he’s giving into them and calling them divine, inspired of God.
@ A New Problem:
Thank you and welcome to commenting. Glad you are here and thank you for being a good dad!
Larry Tolbert wrote:
Larry and the way he treated Paul Petry and Bent Meyer? This isn't about one incident…this is about a pattern of abuse and sin which he has not repented. if the church had dealt with Driscoll in 2008 than Mars Hill would not have risked his 501(c)(3) status. If the IRS investigates remember it was foreordained by God ok? As long as the situation with Paul Petry and Bent Myer is unresolved Mark Driscoll is wasting his time and being disobedient to God. (see Matthew 5:23-24) Do we need to have Mark Driscoll and Jesus face off in a MMA match at Ballard? Does Jesus need to be thrown under the bus? Answers please….
Mara wrote:
Yep and thank you doe bringing up Grace. I cannot believe that these men who have propped up Driscoll have not spoken to him about his disgusting depiction of Grace in his book. Oh right, he really had visions about sex and couldn’t sleep.
Driscoll should get this. He should be having visions about telling the truth and being kind. Funny how those visions only center around sex. What nonsense! And the poor people in his church actually believe its true. He has sucked them into his delusions and the fanboys all want to be like him-lots of money and dreams about illicit sex. What a joke!
@ dee:
Deebs…I think you and Deb should get on the next plane to Seattle and crash Mars Hill. We need a female version of 2 women crashing “Strange Fire” 😛 Maybe you can sell t-shirts on the sidewalk that say to people “I was thrown under the bus at Mars Hill” 😛
Larry Tolbert wrote:
Wow- what a way to write off sin. “Strong Personality Given By Gawd.”
Eagle wrote:
What an awesome idea!!!
Eagle wrote:
You get it! These poor people do not. They think treating people like this is the "gospel."
Larry Tolbert wrote:
First of all, let us get one thing straight. Paul never threw Barnabas under the bus. He never threw anyone under the bus. He threw himself under the bus.
Second of all, your comment shows just how biblically illiterate you really are.
Here is what Paul said about himself.
I Corinthians 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the [a]testimony of God. 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
Wow. This is like the total opposite of Mark Driscoll.
Larry, do you see this?
Probably not because you are just one of many cowardly drive-bys. You shoot and run, not sticking around to see what happens.
Too bad, because I was going to warn you about comparing Driscoll to Paul. It’s baseless and ignorant.
@ Hester:
I’ve read TWW for a few months, but I don’t think I’ve commented before. 😀 I was one of the women who embraced patriarchy without my husband REALLY knowing what was going on. The books promoting it [by the Pearls, et al] were passed around the women’s ministry, woman-to-woman, as “God’s Will for our marriage,” I didn’t ask my husband first if I should START submitting—I just started submitting. It was a long descent into losing my identity, losing my ability to call my husband out on sin in his life, and losing my own calling as a child of God. I started it, and I certainly enabled my husband to continue in his own sin. He then, slowly, took up his own mantle of authority, and became oppressive. The super-Calvinista [love that term] belief that a woman’s submission will lead to God’s blessings and a holy marriage are just outright false. Instead, my submission led my husband to [reasonably] assume that he was just smarter than me, since I never crossed his will, and that I was totally unable to make decisions on my own. I became, oddly enough, a burden to him, instead of the Calvinista-helpmeet. [I remember the first time he ever yelled at me: “Make a decision,” while slamming his hand on the steering wheel.] After four years of this nonsense, I finally realized it DIDN’T WORK. That there was no place in the Bible that suggested enabling my husband was somehow holy, that making my own relationship with God dependent on another person was spiritual and emotional suicide, and I finally put my foot down on a couple of serious matters. It made all the difference in the world. We’ve spent the last year and a half putting our marriage back together, and we’ve become the dreaded “functional egalitarians” that the Piperatzi so eagerly decry. 😀 It’s been wonderful. I just share this to let you know that it IS possible for women to fall into Patriarchy first, that sometimes they genuinely don’t know the way out, and like any other enabler, it may take a catastrophic event to wake up their soul to the sad truth that they’ve been deceived.
Perhaps we’re missing the point with the steady stream of comments vehemently exalting Pastormark™. Perhaps all the scorn, acrimony and accusation in the comments is not parodying Mars Hill acolytes but a genuine and sincere expression of their godly and loving hearts.
Consider. Pastormark™ himself teaches that “soft words make hard hearts; hard words make soft hearts”. Fiscal himself, deep down, genuinely loves it when he is criticised – in fact, the more hurtful and abrasive the criticism the more he loves it – because that’s what makes him tender-hearted, humble and godly.
Two things follow from this. Firstly, there would be no need for Fiscal’s supporters to “defend” him from criticism; they would welcome it, because it would give their Pastor a public platform on which to demonstrate godly tender-heartedness. And secondly, perhaps all the diatribes sent hither are just them following their Shepherd, and copying his example of what it means to love people.
At least, that’s what would follow from what Fiscal teaches.
dee wrote:
Funny thing about this: I actually do believe that some prophecy among believers is Biblical, but no teaching I’ve ever encountered would say that Driscoll’s is legitimate. [ I’m NOT saying all of our spiritual-gifts teaching is necessarily true–I’m in a place in life where I’m re-evaluating every teaching that I’ve ever absorbed without careful analysis.] I was taught that prophecy was to BUILD UP BELIEVERS, to encourage, and was NOT to be “directional or correctional” unless you had “specific authority over that person.” Even if a pastor was given a directional/correctional word for a fellow pastor, he/she was supposed to keep it to him/herself, and pray for that fellow pastor.
You know what these teachers would have called Driscoll’s visions of sin and darkness? Witchcraft and Divination. They would claim that it was directly from Satan. I’ve seen another person do this type of “Oh, I see your sexual sin/ or the sexual abuse that happened to you” stuff, and it was actually accurate, and it deceived the person he was dating. They got married, and she found out he was a liar and lived a double-life.
By any standards of prophetic ministry I’ve encountered, Driscoll WOULD be convicted of his own sin, or would be approached by other prophetic ministers to call him out. Again, I’m not endorsing prophetic ministry, or calling other people to believe in it—I’m just saying that Driscoll’s beliefs are not internally consistent with anything I’ve seen in that movement.
dee wrote:
Then King Joffrey on the Iron Throne of Westeros is the Most Gospelly ruler ever.
(Except maybe one of his predecessors, “The Mad King”…)
dee wrote:
“I SEE Things…”
How else can a Godly Gospelly CELEBRITY Gigapastor indulge his sexual fantasies?
(Gigachurch — when Megachurch isn’t big enough for you.)
Kristin wrote:
So you were one of the ResultSource shills?
We are not going to take it anymore! Pastor Mark is fed up and so am I.
God does not bless your rancor and your poison in the Body of Christ.
Stop this mess and get your heart tender before Jesus.
This is a phantom issue, please stop the trashing of Godly people and please take a look in the mirror.
Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm.” Ps. 105:15
When you take a long look in the mirror, you will see a hypocrite, pharisee, and a rebel.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
Your pastor stole your money to promote his book, and you’re ok with this?
Your pastor stole someone else’s work and claimed it was his own, and you’re ok with this?
Your pastor went onto someone else’s property at a conference, gave his books to them for free, and then claimed they were confiscated, and you’re ok with this?
Your pastor practices a form of prophecy that I’ve personally seen as destructive and demonically influenced [the whole “I see sexual sins” thing] and you’re ok with this?
Your pastor lied and called himself a NYT bestselling author, and you’re ok with this?
HOW, in the name of all that’s holy, is this the problem of the people who write this blog?
Dan Youngerling wrote:
This has been used to silence victims of clergy abuse for decades. That manipulation will not work here.
@ dee:
I will join you both, I think we need a rally here. Fill some buses with the masses of folks who have suffered under Mark's particular brand of doctrine. Just stand outside of mars hill silently with signs.
ONE WORD>>>>>REPENT!
Just a thought.
Larry Tolbert wrote:
Nope, God didn’t lift him up.
The evidence of all the dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus is evident that Mark D lifted himself up, stepping on people all the way up.
You many need Pastor Mark for reasons I’ll get into later. (Hint: They are not good reasons). But I need for Mark to stop undermining the gospel for his own personal gain because he is making Christianity look really, really bad.
@ Dan Youngerling:
Pull your head out of your backside Dan. We are not going to take it anymore. Mark's doctrine is flawed and far from the true gospel. He has made a huge mess and refuses to own it. It will always be someone else's fault. Period. If he does not repent with true humility the spirit of the living GOD will bear testimony against him. Mars Hill is teetering on the edge of a precipice and it is up to him whether it goes over. My personal testimony of what I have suffered is just a small drop in a large slop bucket. The reason people are yelling the emperor has no clothes is because he has NO CLOTHES!!!!! This man is a liar, abusive to his wife and the wives of others, he has proven he will NOT be chastened. His theology about women has done much to break our necks and spirits and nothing to build us up. Esther was not a whore, Songs was not just about some King getting laid, Mark has defiled the marriage bed with his smut, and I personally won't be silent anymore. I am sick of this garbage.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
Was that a veiled threat? Given the Driscollite penchant for cage fighting and violence, one has to wonder.
Larry Tolbert wrote:
First of all, DON’T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!
Now that I have that off my chest, back to why YOU need Driscoll.
He is not God’s mouthpiece for your generation. He is YOUR mouthpiece for how you want God to be.
You Fanboys want your cake and to eat it too.
You want to be able to hold onto all the old, masculine sins of previous generations all the while living under the delusion that you are right with God.
You like Driscoll because he find imaginary references to pornographic sex in the Bible and sees porno visions while he ignores inconvenient scriptures that tell you that you CAN’T hold onto your pet sins.
He ignores the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT that call upon you to be gentle, patient and self-controlled.
He ignores the definition of Love in I Corinthians 13 that talks about not bragging or being arrogant etc.
Yes, Larry. You need him. You need him to justify your own sins and shortcomings. Because you simply don’t want to face them and repent of them. Driscoll strokes your ego. Sadly, you are too smitten to realize that you are being had as he takes money from guys like you to build his own kingdom rather than God’s.
Here’s a thought. I looked briefly at the “recent comments” list before coming to this page. What was it about the name “Dan Youngerling” that made me expect his comment to be aggressively pro-Fiscal?
Eagle wrote:
Personally, I think this is an excellent idea.
It may be time to bring these protests to their front door.
Off topic suggestion: Can you make the links in your banners (current example, for “Mars HIll’s gag order.”) actual links? (Clicking easier than copy, open new tab, paste)
@ Mara:
Let me add that I don’t think it should be done Westboro Baptist style.
I think smiles, t-shirts, and “Jesus even loves wayward pastors who throw people under the bus” should be in order.
(He loves those pastors so much, He wants them to repent, Zacchaeus style, and escape the judgment they are heaping upon themselves by abusing the sheep.)
On topic – there has been commentary about M.D.’s actions putting his Mars Hill’s 5013C status at risk. How would this (hypothetically) happen? What signs*/actions/etc would the public see?
(* not visions)
@ Dan Youngerling:
Sigh.
So many dunderheaded doofuses.
So little time.
dee wrote:
Interestingly enough, it wasn’t too long ago that someone directed me to a video of Driscoll and his wife saying that being a stay-at-home dad makes me worse than an unbeliever…
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Touching not the anointed and prophets always begs the question of just who is anointed and who is a prophet, and in any event is OT in context.
In the NT, try Revelation 2 : 2 instead:
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false…”
Such testing is absolutely essential to prevent us going into deception, and should not be stopped in its tracks by quoting (and imo misusing) Psalm 105 referred to above.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
Dan, is that a threat? It sure reads that way.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
Okay, just a few more before I go. (I can stop when I want to. Really.)
But He blesses Driscoll’s poison?
I think not.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
This is rich coming from a disciple of Mark “I break their noses” Driscoll.
Hypocrisy, anyone?
A New Problem wrote:
I’m afraid there are a host of preachers and their followers who would think that 🙁
This thinking is what happens when you walk in the flesh, and by your flesh, and think your flesh determines everything you should do and be, instead of walking in the spirit.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
What makes you think that I don’t know myself? What makes you think that anyone that comes against the blatant sins of your leader are as delusional and un-self-aware as he is?
Again. STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO. You are trying to take false authority over my life just like your false teacher has taken false authority over others. It may work on some of the people some of the time. But there was never a time when it could work on everybody.
More and more people are seeing this false authority and speaking out against it.
If you want to call exposing error “trashing” you are free to do so. But know that Driscoll needs push back. The man is out of control and needs to reign it in. A lot.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
And yet, Driscoll has not just touched a multitude of anointed ones, he has mercilessly thrown them under the bus like Jezebel on a rampage.
Neither you nor Driscoll have the right to use this scripture to defend him since he is the so guilty of this very thing. All the bodies behind the Mars Hill bus scream in accusation against your idol. No amount of shaming and power posturing by you or you idol will make those bodies go away.
Driscoll is guilty. I don’t care if you and Driscoll are fed up or not. Puffing up like a blowfish isn’t going to save either of you this time.
@ Bridget:
PS – It’s disturbing to see Christian leaders(?) who think they speak for God that don’t know the difference between the spirit and the flesh.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
You wish.
But wishing doesn’t make your fantasy come true.
And wishing out loud like this exposes your folly.
"If there are people out there who still believe that there is such a thing as reformed evangelicalism as a trans-denominational movement, if they believe that this movement will play a key role in the future of the church, and if they believe that they are important leaders in this movement, then they need to speak directly, clearly, and firmly to precisely these issues."
...crickets chirping…
..crickets chirping..
(apparently your comment system doesn’t like the enclosure I used in the previous comment)
Came across this:
http://www.driscollcontroversy.com
It’s incredible it came to this….
That Bad Dog wrote:
I empathise. It doesn’t like my attempts to find a working superscript html tag either.
I have determined in my heart to consider it pure joy.
Back to the Fiscal fanboys.
You may have heard of a computer program called Chomskybot. It is designed to generate prose in the style of linguist Noam Chomsky.
I wonder if someone’s written a similar program that we might call Heyhaterbot. That is, it’s designed to generate prose in the style of someone who thinks Arnold Celebritypastor (fill in the blank) is the Messiah.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Keep in mind that a “mega” isn’t a “mega” due to the number of people, which are measured in thousands not millions. So such a church is a Kilo-church in terms of people. It is a “mega” church in terms of the remuneration of the pastor and his family, and possibly his sins, particularly if you count each dollar of ill-gotten gain as a separate sin. And perhaps it is a “Giga” if you add up all the sins of the congregation for failing to follow the scriptural directive to not follow false teachers and prophets.
dee wrote:
I don’t usually dream about sex; the one or two times it happened, I woke up feeling…well, dirty. It never crossed my mind to share them with others. And my dreams only involved heterosexual, consensual coupling!
Dan Youngerling wrote:
You misapply the scripture and should direct it to yourself and your pastor. It is he who in poisoning the body with his sinful grasping for money and power and his treatment of other Christians.
Second, we do have tender hearts and we worship Jesus not some false prophet. Our hearts are tender for the victims of the Driscoll charade, including you, btw.
And no one here is trashing anyone who is Godly as you have done in your comment. To claim that Driscoll is Godly or a true prophet of God is to spread a falsehood, a lie. You need to repent of your spreading of lies and focus on Jesus, not Driscoll, for Driscoll is leading you to perdition.
And the verse you cite applies not to Driscoll, but to people who are willing to challenge him on his sinful behavior. Look up Berean in the New Testament and see what you should be doing instead of kissing Driscoll’s feet.
Deb wrote:
I saw this when it was on tv. If you watch the clip you shared, look Whoopi's expression. I would love to see her rip into Mark.
@ Taylor Joy:
Excellent comment and welcome to TWW! We are so glad you are taking part in this conversation.
Love the term "piperatzi". Wish I had thought of that.
rebeccalynn wrote:
My sister brought up an interesting point to me the other day about this. She wonders if he simply projects onto other women all of his own (dysfunctional) neuroses/fixations about his own wife not telling him about her abuse (gee I wonder why), or about any consensual sexual contact before marriage, etc. She also remarked that this would also explain his ludicrous treatment of Esther’s story and the judgments he attaches to all that is known and unknown about her.
Anyway, I found her thoughts really fascinating.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Sorry, I posted before finishing. I also want to tell you how sorry I am for your group’s distress. It’s horrible. For those of us who’ve experienced our fair share of distress due to abuse, we don’t need any more of it, especially from a pseudo-counselor-pastor who doesn’t know what the you-know-what he is talking about. I’m so so sorry.
Larry Tolbert wrote:
*sigh*
Why must it always come down to young OR old in the Church? Why not young AND old?
My husband and I were briefly involved in a Mars Hill wannabe church plant in our area, but left when we realized that a) in our mid-30s we would be the second oldest couple there and b) most of the young congregation genuinely thought that the traditional ways of doing and thinking about church had nothing to offer. At all. I’m a church history grad student and teacher, and this is a dangerous attitude to take toward history. The traditional church and older generations of Christians are no more perfect than millennials in missional communities, but we do have some experience under our belt that we would love to share if you’d let us. You need our experience, we need your energy and innovation.
And for the record, Jerry Fallwell was a poor choice.
@ Sara: I’ve been wondering about some of this myself, given the way MD ridicules both Catholic priests (in one of his books; he’s speaking of his childhood parish priest specifically) and high-church Anglican priests. It goes far beyond “men in dresses,” especially in whatever book it is where he briefly speaks about his childhood. He also ridicules the parish priest for being gay and alcoholic.
It’s a very ugly and resentful swipe, to say the least.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
And what, Dan, are you going to do about it, exactly. How are you “not going to take it anymore.” Hmmmm?
@ A New Problem:
Thank you, sir. May your tribe increase.
@ Taylor Joy:
Thanks for sharing your story. I didn’t intend my original comment to mean that enabling could never happen, but the way the original statement made to me was phrased implied that every patriarchal man comes from an enabling situation. As I’m sure you know, many of them are not because they’re abusing their wives, and the wives are just trying to survive. I’ve actually heard equal numbers of stories from both directions – i.e., wives discovering patriarchy first, or husbands discovering it first. I also know firsthand that sometimes the women who advocate for patriarchy can be even more vicious than the men (just go read the patriarchal women’s blogosphere!).
Also the person who made the original statements reads men’s rights material a lot, so that colors my perception of his meaning. Men’s rights is basically just a way for abusive men to paint themselves as victims and give flagrant misogyny a noble-sounding name. And men’s rights advocates who aren’t abusers, are pretty much across the board totally ignorant about domestic abuse, how abusers behave and the language they use. There are also, unsurprisingly, strong connections to patriarchy when you get into “Christian” men’s rights circles.
So basically, I heard the person in question oversimplifying the situation, and repeating a narrative from men’s rights that tries to shift all the blame onto the woman no matter what. I hope that clears up what i meant.
Kristin wrote:
I was just going through his fb page (noticing nothing new today…hmmmmm, strange because he has posts go up several times a day), and I didn’t realize he just had a Real Marriage simulcast 3 weeks ago. I am wondering if the “2000 folks” feel as you do? I’m sorry you are feeling this way, just know that not all pastors are this contemptuous–my own pastor is openly humble, tho’ I have felt he was a MD fanboy in the past. I just hope he does not invite MD to anymore men’s breakfasts.
@ Dan Youngerling:
OMG sounds almost like fighting words. Problem is the only way this stuff is going to go away for you and Marky is for true repentance and change or you and Marky jump under a real moving bus.
Taylor Joy wrote:
The sad thing is that some people will not see any connection between the theology and your experience. They’ll just claim you did it “wrong.” You didn’t, by the way, and I’ve heard plenty of stories like yours.
I am wondering how many of the MD fans are the young men living in one of the Mars Hill-owned homes? That person would have a lot to lose (housing) if they didn’t speak in support of him. The critical thinking skills aren’t quite in place yet (this is not a put down, but scientifically studied) to realize how many people (that may have also lived in those MH homes at one point in their young adulthood) have been thrown under the bus for questioning MD’s tactics.
Seriously speaking, it is troubling how red flags can be simply waved away–but if many of these young men have no where else to go, they will sign the contracts to not speak out when there is much to lose.
I used to be really angry at Driscoll all the time–I mean, personally furious at him in a way that isn’t completely rational for someone who doesn’t know the man 🙂 Over the last year or so, as I’ve thought more about the whole situation, my intense feelings of anger at him have dissipated and morphed more into what I call concern. Concern over the fact that hurt is still coming from Mars Hill, that hurt is probably going on in Mark’s personal life, and concern that a large and visible church culture would let him get away with so much without correction.
I’m not saying no one has a right to feel angry with him. I’m just saying that what has come to disturb me is the fact that “the system” he’s in has allowed him to become a tyrant with no rules. How is that healthy for Christians, or a good witness to anyone else?
As Christians, we all hope to have the checks-and-balances of other believers. These are spouses, pastors, friends, mentors, who lovingly call out our sin and help us to not be devoured by sin. It has become more and more clear that Driscoll has no such checks-and-balances in his life, and it appears that because of that, his ego has run amok and damaged his life–and, embarrassingly, this has happened in front of all of North America.
I think people around Driscoll should have lovingly asked him to take a break from leadership long ago. It would have stopped so much hurt that has come from Mars Hill. It also would have stopped a lot of pain that Driscoll will now have to repair in his own life. Everyone loses. No one wins.
I have a feeling that Driscoll’s pastor buddies won’t throw him under the bus unless he’s caught “with a dead girl or live boy” (to quote *colorful* Louisiana politician Edwin Edwards). If the IRS were to go after Driscoll for tax violations, his buddies will likely cry “persecution”!
To add to my comment, I believe there are many people within the Mars Hill system who truly desire to do God’s will. But when The System starts looking to a human pastor to head the ship, then bad things are going to happen and people are going to give in to their sin natures. Honestly, I want better than that for everyone involved at Mars Hill. And if there are people (as there are in every organization) who have bad motives, I want those people to come to repentance too. Like I said, it’s a situation where everyone loses. Any church community has great capacity for good. But any church community isn’t immune to human sin making bad things happen between people. Ideally, when that happens, people would be honest enough to call it out and make it stop, with God’s help, so the community can continue on in health.
rebeccalynn wrote:
This kind of thinking is sadly common in certain Christian groups.
I read a book by a guy a couple of years ago (who I later found out is into "biblical" or nouthetic counseling, I didn't know that at the time I got the book), and his book threw me for a loop because he had something in it where he felt a 35 year old woman (who was a patient of his) needed to repent for her part in her being raped by her dad when she was ten years old, or something like that.
I have never been sexually assaulted myself (well, there was one incident when I was a toddler by a neighbor kid, but nowhere near as severe as rape), but I had to keep from throwing the book at the wall in anger.
Larry Tolbert wrote:
Driscoll has only himself to blame. BTW, the secular media (people who may or may not be Christian) have been airing these tid bits about Driscoll.
I think an atheist lady even did an article about Driscoll’s connection with that shady doctor guy. I linked to her article a couple of weeks ago, and someone else here said, “Oh, that’s by so and so, she’s a famous atheist.” I had no idea she was an atheist, but the paper she was writing for was not expressly a religious / Christian one.
I’ve also seen some secular press in the Seattle area cover Driscoll/ Mars Hill.
@ Dan Youngerling:
Dan: “We are not going to take it anymore! Pastor Mark is fed up and so am I.”
–Threat? Is this how we are to respond to having sin exposed?
Dan: “God does not bless your rancor and your poison in the Body of Christ.”
–Does God consider exposing sin as “rancor” and “poison”?
Dan: “Stop this mess and get your heart tender before Jesus.”
–“Stop this mess” is what Driscoll and his enablers need to do. What does a “tender heart” look like? Does it look like how Driscoll acts? Does it throw people under the bus? Demean women, including his wife ever so publicly? Was it how he treated the elders he fired? Etc…
Dan: “This is a phantom issue,”
–Phantom? Tell that to Paul Petry and Brent Meyer … and all the other collateral damage. Tell that to the college president who was recently fired for plagiarism … along with the many throughout time who’ve been publicly reprimanded and punished for plagiarism.
Dan: “… please stop the trashing of Godly people and please take a look in the mirror.”
–Again, is calling a public figure to accountability due to public unrepented sins “trashing?” James 5:20 “you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.” So I don’t think your statement can be appropriately applied to those calling Mark Driscoll to repent; however, I do think you might want to consider applying this statement to yourself.
Dan: “Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm.” Ps. 105:15”
–The “anointed ones” were the kings God appointed in the OT. This scripture has been misapplied by many as a manipulative ploy to allow leaders to operate with impunity, regardless of the fact that other scriptures support accountability for leaders and protection for the congregation, such as we see in Acts where the Apostle Paul first appoints elders in Ephesus. He tells them their job is to protect the sheep … not a pastor.
Dan: “When you take a long look in the mirror, you will see a hypocrite, pharisee, and a rebel.”
–Dan, you may not realize it, but this statement is for you and all who enable a pastor in unrepentant public disqualifying sin.
Take heart, Dan. I used to do what you are doing. It was embarrassing and humiliating to realize what I’d done when I finally saw past what I was told to see and began to see what was actually going on. But there is life on the other side, God walked me through it and gave me a safe place to land.
mirele wrote:
Then let the “PERSECUTION(TM)!!!!!!!!” begin.
This guy needs to go down before he destroys any more of his flock.
EMSoliDeoGloria wrote:
In Scientology, they call it “The Tech” instead of “theology.”
In the old Soviet Union, they called it “Purity of Ideology” instead of “theology”.
But it’s all the same: Just like Chin Dynasty Legalism, The System Must Be All in All, The System Can Do No Wrong, and All Must Be Broken to The System.
dee wrote:
Dee, I cannot imagine you even in the past as a starry-eyed college chick not even dry behind the ears yet, because now you make me think of a full-on Reverend Mother whom I have oceans of respect for. Enough orbits about the sun change us all in more ways than one.
dee wrote:
Deb and Dee, if you are still planning on doing a run down on pastor mansions in future posts. One thing you might also want to include…. I saw a blog post months ago and can’t recall off hand who wrote it…
I think the blog post was in the context of discussing Steve Furtick’s big house when that controversy broke awhile ago, though I may be wrong. The guy who wrote the page said some preachers are sneakier about their greed.
This guy wrote that some preachers know not to be conspicuous about the wealth, so they will live in a modest house driving a modest car, saving up all the money in the meantime.
In the meantime, what such preachers do is spend the funds on intangible / less visible things, like pricey vacations (I think he used preacher Perry Noble as an example for this, if I remember right).
It’s harder for the media or church members to get suspicious about the preacher bilking a church if the loot is spent on expensive vacations a time or two per year, rather than if the preacher is buying a new BMW and driving it around town, or showing up to church in a new Rolex watch, every six months.
I did some checking, and I think this is the page I was thinking of:
Steven Furtick and the Walter White conundrum by James Duncan, Pajama Pages
JadedOne wrote:
That reminds me of a local political campaign scandal when I was a kid. There was a candidate who put it all over the media of a “Committee of Ten Thousand” backing him — in a town of less than 5000. (And using the same photo of the same people in all his ads, spun as “We’re from (different city each time).” When this was pointed out to him on the air, he started calling the interviewer a COMMUNIST(TM).
@ Daisy:
P.S. As a matter of fact, you may have linked to that very page from this blog on an older post. Maybe that is where I first saw it! But I think the points on that page would be good to remind people of, if you do a future post about preacher greed.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
#1 Until Dave Kraft opens up, you don’t know if he is lying.
#2 MD is the one that shot the arrow across the bow in regards to Mr Kraft.
#3 Critically think and consider that perhaps you are actually holding up another LRH who is sitting happily in his posh home, thinking about how to keep the young majority of his tithers in line with pithy sayings.
MD’s church is built on sinking sand.
Hester wrote:
That pattern also held in the Ku Klux Klan of the Roaring Twenties. The “Ladies Auxilliaries” often cracked the P-whip over their Manly Man Klansmen and gave the REAL orders.
In male supremacist cultures, the only way for a woman to wield Power is indirectly, through deceit — by manipulating a Man to carry out Her Will. You end up with a lot of men in official positions of Patriarchal Power strutting around saying “I”M IN CHARGE!” while She Who Must Be Obeyed in Private carries his testicles around in her purse (“Yes, Dear.”).
This does not do good things to either his or her personality or attitude.
Mara wrote:
The funny thing is, Driscoll didn’t even write all of the “Real Marriage” book (and a few of the other books that appear under his name), his ghost writer did, or whomever the material was lifted from. 😆
On The Allegations Of Plagiarism Against Mark Driscoll
Taylor Joy wrote:
“The Party Can Do No Wrong. Ees Party Line, Comrade.”
“The Party Can Do No Wrong. Ees Party Line, Comrade.”
“The Party Can Do No Wrong. Ees Party Line, Comrade.”
“The Party Can Do No Wrong. Ees Party Line, Comrade.”
“The Party Can Do No Wrong. Ees Party Line, Comrade.”
doubleplusgoodthink INGSOC,
doubleplusbellyfeel INGSOC,
doubleplusduckspeak INGSOC.
Eagle wrote:
I agree. I’ve said that on the past Driscoll thread of two, where his defenders scold Deb and Dee for picking on Driscoll for “X” and only “X.”
It’s not just “X,” Driscoll has also done A, B, C, D, E, F, G, Hi, etc (insert rest of alphabet here), and that he treats other people horribly.
(But it depends on what we’re talking about; I think sometimes it’s warranted to be critical of just one thing, if, for example, it’s something like a pastor using church funds to buy himself a huge mansion.)
TO OUR READERs: WE HAVE A CERTIFIED TROLL
Dan Youngerling, Larry Tolbert, Karen Hester, Shed Larringer, Susan Lanskey, and PP are one and the same. This guy, girl, whatever, has claimed to be a pastor, then he claimed to be baptized as a woman at Elevation Church and now claims involvement at Mars Hill. I am sure that there are a few psych experts who could give us reasons for him to do this. Unfortunately, we do not have time. We will begin blocking his/her/whatever comments but a few may slip through until we get ALL of his cotton picking identities entered.
PS He is in NC-the cold winter is starting to affect people.
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ dee:
so when youngerling said he was going to tell all his friends not to come here, did he mean him/herselfs? 🙂
@ Taylor Joy:
Your post describes something I’ve noticed before, that partriachy / complementarianism beliefs and teachings mirrors codependency.
A lot of the behavior considered “biblically feminine” for wives (or for all women) is nothing but codependency dressed up in Christian jargon. It’s very sneaky how that works.
I am glad that you and your spouse have worked things out and having a great marriage.
dee wrote:
Somebody’s got too much time on their hands while living in Mom’s basement.
Daisy wrote:
It’s the remedy of choice for men with low self-worth.
JeffT wrote:
They need to get a dog not a wife
@ dee:
How can you tell? Same IP address?
JadedOne wrote:
Too funny-he/she may be doing an internet version of the movie Sybil.
Think of it this way-Driscoll has about 5 fewer people defending him. This could be good.
Just watching him, you can tell he has a huge ego. Once I was at a talk given by Father Thomas Dubay which regarded him personally. His response, “I don’t enjoy talking about myself.”
Stopped me in my tracks. Because I do love to talk about myself. Gave me lots to pray about in my life.
@ rebeccalynn:
@ srs:
You get the drift.
@ elizabeth:
I frankly get bored of myself at times. That’s why I love to blog. i get to hear from so many thoughtful people and a few multiple personalities.
@ dee:
Makes me wonder if the sycophant is emulating his/her idols (Driscoll, Furtick, etc.)
Ya know, I get it. I get why people want to go to hip churches from a cultural standpoint. I get why people who’ve never darkened the door of a church before would go to a culturally relevant church, at least culturally relevant to them.
I just wish the leaders of hip churches were more careful in how they organize the church (need for meaningful accountability;) and more careful about guarding from temptations that come from growing and receiving more money (need for financial accountability and limiting.)
I also wish that hip mega-churches had multiple leadership so that no celebrity pastor can gain control. It just seems like much of the teaching these days is guys making stuff up. If you know a tiny bit of hermeneutics (which could be taught in church easily,) you can see the pastor is saying something is in scripture that just isn’t there. Hip churches are often dumbed down.
A New Problem wrote:
I have, at some point in time, either been on the paid staff, a Sunday School teacher, or a regular attender at a PCUSA, an ELCA and an EFCA. So we have that in common.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Now, carry that idea one step further. Do not limit your comments to patriarchal cultures. The sad fact is that there are a lot of people, both male and female, who go out looking for somebody to take responsibility for them and tell them what to do. And there are a gracious plenty people, both male and female, who are only too glad to take on that responsibility for someone else.
IMO, these people who tell men that they need to “act like men” might have a fairly large audience who needs to hear that. Too bad that some of those who think they can lecture other men on how to be a man (like MD) don’t seem to have figured it out for themselves yet.
And those people who think they should tell women how to act like women, also have a large potential audience to draw from. Problem is, all they seem to know to tell women is how to appear dependent and how to look busy and trivial. Nobody needs to tell women how to be manipulative, we are born knowing that.
So there, I think, is one dynamic of the popularity of MD and his ilk. MD can tell the poor soul who left his testicles in some woman’s purse that all he has to do to be a real man is stomp around the house. Of course, there is no real power in stomping, but the guy can pretend that there is. And he can tell the woman that as long as she “wears ruffles and makes cupcakes” actually and metaphorically, then she can be as manipulative as she wants and is called by God to be “better than” all the other women. In fact, she might re-direct her controlling and manipulative behavior toward the children, other women and even the society at large (from home of course.) Wouldn’t that be a real winner.
In other words, it lets people continue in their dysfunctional behavior while showing them how to better disguise it. As in, I”m not a weakling, watch me stomp. And as in, I’m not manipulative, see how sweet and docile I can (pretend to) be if I need to.
Why do I think this. There has to be some explanation why MD et al can blatantly distort scripture and apparently nobody among his thousands calls him on it. It look like nobody cares, and they probably don’t care because it is not about God and not really about sex and is primarily preying on troubled people’s personality problems. With the benefit, of course, for the predators to make a lot of money in the process.
I am not saying that everybody in those thousands fall into this category. There are certainly other variables at work, But I sure do think that this is one of the issues.
@ dee<@ dee:
Shoot…I was hoping for more and now it’s going to be less.
Power. Sex. Money.
It’s always one or more of these three things that corrupts when the wrong person gets into a position of authority with little or no accountability. There was already evidence of Driscoll’s misuse of power. Now there is evidence of the same with money. If the behaviors exhibited so far aren’t put in check, it’s may be just a matter of time until there’s some scandal involving sex.
Tragically, more destructiveness will probably come to light, or be wrought, before it’s all over.
@ sad observer:
sad observer wrote:
Problem is the people that surround Pastors like Driscoll have been hand picked by Driscoll and are in fact little Driscoll clones. They just not as far up the church food chain as the Head Man, but way above the common seat warmer in the pews. Just like Driscoll, they have tasted the Ruth Chris of what the church has to offer and would never eat just beans again.
Nancy wrote:
Good insight Doc; specially about women – -:)
Dan Youngerling wrote:
Only if 2 mega church pastors are standing behind me.
Taylor Joy wrote:
So Dan, what exactly are you going to do? If you’re not going to take it, how are you going to stop it? Give us an action plan.
Larry Tolbert wrote:
Funny how this doesn’t ring true for females with strong personalities, in MD’s circles. Satan makes those, evidently.
__
“Whom Do Da Proverbial Marzhil Bus Wheels Toll 4 Now?”
huh?
“Mark Driscoll, I would enjoy time with you but I can’t because you’re under church discipline. You can join me if we can talk about your refusal to listen to God and the church…”
-snicker-
hmmm… (where oh where have we heard ‘that’ before?)
What goes around, comes around, huh?
Do unto others as ___________. (fill in the blank)
Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
(bump)
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me…” -Jesus
*
“Said the robin to the sparrow, ‘I should really like to know why these anxious human beings rush about and worry so.?
Said the sparrow to the robin, ‘Friend, I think that it must be that they have no Heavenly Father such as cares for you and me…'”
His eyes are ever upon da lit’l sparrow…
(smiley face goes here)
Sopy
__
inspiration: Justice Gilbert : “Wasting Another Moment?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqMZQtQIQn8
🙂
—
rebeccalynn wrote:
This actually brought tears to my eyes. That poor/those poor women. Let’s break the broken reeds shall we?
Dan Youngerling wrote:
Of course, TWW was born when Deebs decided exactly that.
Anon wrote:
Interesting. Although they lost some credibility with their tattoo rant. I don’t have a tattoo my body, but their logic strikes of good old fashioned independent fundamentalist baptist rantings that I’d hear as a kid. Nice to see that the tradition of silliness is still alive and well.
Next I’m expecting to see a post there on how wine was merely some Welches juice equivalent (or even ‘grape jelly,’ I kid you not). Yes, I went to a wacky Christian high school as a kid. 🙂
Beakerj wrote:
Beaks – with which of the three do you associate (as though we couldn’t guess)?
Personally, I’d bags “rebel”, and I’m guessing you would too. 🙂
In fact, how about a little TWW competition?
Complete the following joke:
A hypocrite, a pharisee, and a rebel walked into a bar…
A New Problem wrote:
Yes, we had a poor fellow at our neocal cultic church, a genuinely good guy, who chose to stay at home for a period of years to raise his child and homeschool her while wife ran a successful business. He’s a little awkward, but truly good-hearted and with unappreciated wisdom. He was mocked and marginalized, I stood up for him more than once (which was part of the reason I was hated there). The young turks and the pastor would get together to confront him with his “sin” of not working outside the home. The teenage boys of the right hand man/elder who I call The Enforcer peppered the guy’s Facebook page with ridicule about how “stupid” and delusional he was long after he left the fellowship. Anytime someone’s belief system justifies allowing their teen to mock an adult like that, you know there’s something massively amiss.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Unicorn Guy I been waiting for the right opportunity to begin my Kool-Aide Ministry, and I think Driscoll has brought me to that point. What I need is one million of The Wartburg Watch readers to go out and buy a single pack of grape unsweetened Kool-Aide. Use the contents for supper that night, (if you mail a full pack Driscoll will probably gather them and resell them) Next take the empty Kool-Aide pack and put it in a plain white envelope. On a designated date yet to be determined by my executive staff of (3), all one million envelopes will be sent to the Mars Hill Executive office 1411 NW 50th
Seattle, WA 98107. This will make Mars Hill first on the receiving end of the New Kool Aide Ministry. Please don’t put a return address unless you wish to receive a request for donation letter in return.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
If the allegations and controversy are a “total sham”, why did MHC issue an apology for them, calling what Driscoll and the church did “unwise” and promising to never do it again?
I cannot imagine anyone but a brainwashed cultist still claiming this “has no basis in fact” when the contract has already been produced for public consumption and the church “apology” has already been issued. But then again, I think the answer to that question lies in the stating of it.
LawProf wrote:
Good for you. In case anybody wondered, after my rant, your behavior is an example of how “real men” ought to do. There is real personal power in inner-motivated being, thinking and doing regardless of whether others like it or not.
Just saying.
Dee – VERY SORRY – Just this moment saw your admonition above to not feed the troll, which I was feeding. Probably some teenage kid having sport with us. LOL
Sorry I fed him, too.
But the troll did a find job of representing the clouded and self-serving thinking of groups like Mars Hill. It’s exactly the same in Calvary Chapel. Same old tired manipulative out-of-context and demeaning phrases and scripture.
Nancy wrote:
You’re very kind. But I probably hate bullies when I shouldn’t–at least my wife reminds me of that. Anyway, I would just seethe with rage when someone at a men’s meeting, always one of the leaders (typically The Enforcer whom I’ve described elsewhere) always seemed to find a way to critique whatever Mr. S. said, no matter what it was, always questioning his motives, whether he was really a good husband at all, but always in a viciously passive-aggressive way, always towards the ends of “In a spirit of love, correcting a brother”, but doing it in the most humiliating way possible when the young turks were around who just ate up The Enforcer’s every word. The leaders never gave him a good honest chance to defend himself or get a foothold because their mockery was always dripping with faux honey. Had he ever fired back, I’ll bet they’d have nodded knowingly at the young turks as if to say: “See, told ya he’s divisive”.
I knew exactly what was going on, knew the way they’d talk about him behind his back. I’d chime in with “Well I agree with what Mr. S says 100%, he’s got the right idea, he’s the one here who really knows how to [do whatever it was they were mocking him for].” Man, that made the leaders burn! Thank God Mr. S and family left soon after my family and I left, told me I was one of the big reasons they left–made my day.
Beakerj wrote:
Comment of the day, maybe even the week!
Katie wrote:
I didn’t. I worked out anagrams of his/her pseudonyms.
I’d like to note two issues that consistently accompany celebrity pastors and are clearly seen in all of Mark Driscoll’s situations:
– confession. they never repent. they will ride the fame wagon in spite of clear evidence of guilt. celebrity pastors will not confess because they view their job as preserving the frail organizations they have established. celebrity pastors all work with a mixture of two ingredients: Gospel and greed. celebrity pastors’ greatest problem is their commitment to sell a modded Gospel.
– financial transparency. this is such a problem in the megachurch fantasy land. being at the top of these organizations is the only way to view this information in a raw form. everyone else is receiving massaged numbers that are formed to give the appearance of a financially sound organization.
from what I have seen, mars hill gave around 3% of its gross revenue to missions in 2012 (reference their public budget for 2012 available online). however, how much of that 3% went to flights and hotels for short term teams? did they count the missions pastor’s salary in that money? there isn’t anyone from the outside that would be given clear documentation to answer these questions. this applies to the book sales controversy as well. if the money didn’t go to mark, then show us where it went. mars hill’s response to the book sales controversy provides their members and public with ALL the right questions they have the right to ask. i.e. how the church handles profits from the church (again, show us the raw data/numbers), how they picked the recipients who received the books on the church’s dime, how could a church their size not have enough common sense to walk away from the RSI deal if they are competent enough to run an organization the size of Mars Hill, etc.?
I don’t listen to PR campaigns – show us the raw financials to exonerate your church and its leaders. EVERYTHING can be clearly explained and understood by outsiders with access to raw financials such as those that are declared by all other 501(c)3’s via their form 990 (that you can view for free on guidestar.org). the refusal of “churches” to be above reproach in the area of financial transparency is proof enough that it operates under a questionable use of the funds it receives. quit giving to these organizations. even if they have an ECFA seal, it only means to me that the church is faithfully dedicating funds directly to what the organization wants to give to – not that the church is a steward of its resources.
as for x-staffers being scared to speak out and break their NDA’s, I think more of us need to stand forward and live lives that do not have a price. while I can absolutely and personally empathize with going through such a situation, I find it to be EXTREMELY unfortunate that people are being bought out. this is the same spiritual crime that grips the leadership of celebrity pastors – they protect their post the secrets of the church because of personal security. the new testament overflows with guidance on how to carry one’s cross and deny one’s self, which I firmly believe leads to other results than fear at the cost of allowing people to walk in spiritual blindness under the foolishness of church marketing geniuses. I hope that more celebrity pastor church staff members will view their participation as helping the problem, even if they took their jobs with pure motives. I hope wives and husbands will support one another when one or both decides that obedience to Christ and one’s willingness to suffer for Him stares directly at them begging a response.
@ Nick Bulbeck: Yup!
@ Deb:
Definitely comment of the week.
dee wrote:
Maybe he’s a mega-church pastor whose particular vice is not sex-visioneering or plagiarism but internet trolling…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
….and Mark Driscoll said, “Ow, who put that bar in the way?”
dee wrote:
So this “person” is the Hydra of Mars Hill, eh? And just when I thought MD’s fanboys couldn’t get any more batsh*t crazy.
“Roses are red,
Violets are blue.
I’m schizophrenic,
And so am I.”
Nancy wrote:
Yes, I agree and believe it is quite common. It is not limited to MD’s church. In the churches I’ve attended the scripture was not obviously distorted, but it seemed that a good number of the congregation appeared to be socially maladjusted.
dee wrote:
Okay.
Just one question.
Where is the line dividing “feeding the troll” from “answering a fool according to his folly”?
JadedOne wrote:
🙂
@ Mara:
The problem is who is the fool? he appears to be many people.
A New Problem wrote:
🙂
Mara wrote:
Y'all are a witty bunch! Another G-R-E-A-T comment!
Joe wrote:
“Socially maladjusted” types make up a LOT of the various fandoms I’ve been involved with — D&D, comics, Furry, Brony. A lot of them flock to it because they can be accepted into a community of those with the same interest/obsession. Many first-generation fans came from abusive upbringings; most all were the Omegas of their school years.
Mara wrote:
Well, for one thing, when the “fool” is actually just a computer, like “Dean” (see this comment, which was obviously generated by a “chatbot”, i.e. a computer program designed to generate fake prose. They’re not very sophisticated as yet).
JadedOne wrote:
This calls for another Classic Momento from Dr Demento:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3Ps5-CicEE
Raymond wrote:
Agreed! That’s maybe what I was getting at, but you put it better 🙂 It’s really concerning to me that it’s par for the course for mega churches to be run this way, where one person gets to decide who’s in and who’s out.
Of course, you also have other well-known pastors who aren’t quite as dependent on Driscoll (think, for instance, John Piper, who has his own ministry) and they aren’t rushing to reprimand him either. The mega-church culture has gotten to the point where if someone agrees with you theologically and has made their own mega-church look good, no one is willing to call them out, underlings and peers alike. Something is hugely wrong.
Daisy wrote:
As if Bee Jay’s not doing a good enough job by himself?
This is probably one of those things where one crack forms in the façade, then another, then another, then everything crumbles at once. Like the WTC on 9/11 when the heat from the fires hit critical temperature and the steel weakened enough and everything came down all at once.
In Isaiah, isn’t there some sort of promise from God to pants the false teacher in public and leave him standing there flapping in the breeze in front of everyone?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I don’t have any problem with with the fact that people have problems. That is one of the definitions of being human. What I have problems with is the fact that the church—the church for crying out loud— would tolerate and even have in leadership those who prey on people. Especially when Jesus himself set exactly the opposite example. It is the predation that I find so inexcusable.
@ Raymond:
In other news, it turns out that I am not alone in thinking that “Ruth’s Chris” is a stupid name for a chain of eateries (or, indeed, for anything, even a Chris belonging to Ruth). In fact, Ruth herself hates it.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
That’s Ruth Fertel, obviously.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
And apologies, I should have said that Ruth hated it. She died in 2002.
Raymond wrote:
Something similar happened with the former Mayor of Los Angeles, Villaragosa (AKA “Mayor Viva-La-Raza”). He made some comment about “We clean your toilets!” and a couple afternoon drive-time radio guys took him up on it. Told all their listeners to buy a toilet brush at WalMart or the local dollar store and mail it to the mayor at City Hall. Overflowed the City Hall mailroom and then some.
And post-Jonestown there was a mixed drink recipe called “Guyana Punch”: Koolaid made with vodka or Everclear cut with almond extract (to smell like cyanide).
dee wrote:
For a second I thought you were asking me who the fool was, him or me?
Should have known that’s not what you meant. It just reminded me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9gOk51hoqI
And I thought, “Who is more foolish… the fool or the fool who follows him?” (Into conversation.)
🙂
@ Raymond:
Another great idea for a protest.
@ rebeccalynn:
It is actually worse than that. Mark follows the older charismatic idea that unconfessed sin = bondage to it. So, he wants her (everyone) to confess all their sexual past in order to “heal” them. But, since he is twisted, once he has someone’s confession, he then uses it against them. Notice how his wife Grace isn’t really ever free of her past to him. Notice how the guy who had to sign the church discipline contract written over at MPT’s blog also had to “confess all his sins”. The “working through it” becomes an indefinite amount of time where an untrained care group leader, and his superiors keep a person under their control because of their past sexual history…and all care group leaders are men, so imagine them trying to relate to women’s sexual past.
That shepherding involves being scrutinized, being told who you can and can’t date (that came out a while ago), getting in trouble for not handing over 10% of your income, having to endlessly meet with a barrage of untrained leaders to confess, repent, confess repent, while they treat you as if you are broken and damaged and need to just live to meet with them.
Let me guess the four types of women in the book are: temptress (all young unmarried women), frigid (all married women), upity (all smart, confident women, Judge Deborah), and bimbo (all pretty, successful women and Queen Esther) in their minds. Because Mark is such an expert on women, I’m sure his book is packed with sage advice /sarc./
Mara wrote:
I love Mara! No way. I was making a quip about the various names he/she/it is using. Will the actual fool stand up?
Val wrote:
I have always wanted to be known as a temptress-it has a certain ring to it.
@ dee:
Usually I am known as a Jezebel!
Joe wrote:
This. The people at the evangelical churches I’ve been to often have some of the worst social skills. At a small group I was a part of for a while at my A29 church, socializing was very, very strange. People would continually interrupt each other– not just during a debate, when things got heated, but just in ordinary conversation. Additionally, they were *WAY* too friendly with new people– in a very uncomfortable way. They would ask personal questions of people they barely knew. They thrived on hearing about each other’s sin. We had “social time” each week after discussing the sermon for that week. I was in the habit of leaving early, because I had such little free-time during that period (and I think subconsciously I knew that I needed to spend as little time with these people as possible in order to keep myself mentally healthy). One night, a guy *cornered* me in the kitchen and forced me to talk to him (I am female, btw). He wanted to know why I was always leaving early, and when I explained it to him and tried to exit, he stepped in my way! He forced me to chat with him. That was the last time I ever went to that group.
I can’t imagine the church makes these people like this? I think there has to be some crazy in them beforehand. The sad thing is, for a long time I thought I must be the one lacking in social skills because I never managed to fit in.
dee wrote:
At the risk of sounding like Driscoll (i.e., “Hurt people hurt people”), it’s been my experience that Jezebels specialize in calling decent people Jezebels.
Moxie wrote:
Lovebombing – Sin sniffing
__
Bizarre ‘ Religious’ Bobblehead(s) : “Da Marzhil/Resurgence Driven Christian ‘Church’ Consumer Market ?”
huh?
>>—> Target 18-25 year olds, get um involved, exploit them to build a church growth empire, n’ discard um when they start asking too many questions?
(repeat…)
clip: “Church Needs Dudes”: Desiring God Interview with Mark Driscoll on church planting and the need for young, innovative men…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lex6orNNzTs
And none call it ‘exploitation’?
hmmm…
(sadface)
Mark Driscoll: “it is an honor to serve…”
(grin)
hahahahahaha
Sopy
___
Comic relief: Marzhil Now! ” I love the smell of controversy in the morning…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jts9suWIDlU
;~)
—
mirele wrote:
He could always take to the seas, like good ol’ Elron Hubbard!
dee wrote:
What? The troll is in NC? Certainly not Tar Heel born and Tar Heel bred. Real Carolinians have much better manners. I swan, the border patrols just aren’t what they used to be; after all, they let SGM in to plant several churches. Sigh.
dee wrote:
Is this the same guy who sent you those email threats?
Or just some ordinary jerk?
Wesley wrote:
Don’t forget the jiggly teenage “Commodore’s Assistants” in string bikinis…
Elron is Xenu!
Val wrote:
Sounds like an opportunity to get his jollies in the process (JUICY! JUICY! JUICY!) without having to actually SEE Things(TM).
Just like Scientology auditing.
Moxie wrote:
I think that it is both a church problem and a person problem. Some churches, and I am thinking of a large SBC church in my town with which I am familiar, practically force people into “small groups” to the extent that they have changed sunday school into a small group format to include meeting in the members homes in addition to sunday meetings, and they want people to talk about their problems/sins/issues. When they were not getting this done too well, they stopped handing out the announcements in the worship services and told people that if they wanted to know what was going on in the church they had to go to “bible fellowship” which is the name for sunday school now.
This emphasis on having people who are basically strangers, and who are not any way chosen by each other trample other people’s boundaries in order to establish “belonging” is way over the line. For example, let us assume that there is some level of social misfit-dom about a person, and that person ventures into church, how “right” is it to tell this person that yes, you can come be with us if and only if you let yourself become even more vulnerable than you already are, all the time knowing that the vultures among them will try to destroy this person. Choose any paradigm you want, call it sick or evil or just ill advised, it is still wrong, wrong, wrong.
At the same time, some people fall into line with that, and those are the ones that I think have some pre-existing serious problems. Apparently they have not been able to establish a sense of belonging any way and they may be desperate to deal with their aloneness. And here comes a church situation designed to furnish mice to the vultures, and some people let it happen to them. I know that sounds harsh, but that is the way I see it. That is not how to create an environment in which people can thrive.
The ones who refuse to participate, however they do that, seem to be better able to understand how to survive (I am trying to not use psych or psychobabble terms.)
You, Moxie, certainly were a misfit in such a situation, since you are apparently sane and a survivor. Hooray for you.
Disclaimer (again): There is a thing going on at my son’s episcopal church that appears purely social and seems to work well. Obviously, some systems work well. In this case there is only an emphasis on getting to know people, and it seems to be packed out with high dominance folks who are comfortable with protecting themselves should it be necessary. So it does not become necessary. Imagine that.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Slightly disagree here.
His biggest problem was that there were two dozen elders, each with the same LEGAL authority as Driscoll. All were voting officers of the corporation known as Mars Hill Church. They abdicated their responsibility, their sacred duty, to keep Driscoll accountable and the church books/records transparent. Had those so-called elders not acquiesced and knuckled under to Driscoll’s bullying insistence to change the church bylaws without deliberation, the monstrous cult-of-personality evident today would have been nipped in the bud, and perhaps Driscoll himself would have humbly accepted the correction of the council of elders.
Instead, they pragmatically voted to adopt the new bylaws Driscoll drafted, which stripped all the elders of their legal right to ever vote on anything again and installed Driscoll with lifetime tenure as the “Lead Teaching and Vision Pastor” – accountable to no one (except a Potemkin board of men handpicked by Driscoll).
Yes, Driscoll needs to be held accountable for his actions and repent. But just as importantly, every single one of those “elders” who voted for his takeover of the church in 2007 and served as jurors/inquisitors at the kangaroo trials of Meyer and Petry, need to man-up for the roles they played – their dereliction of sacred duty, their complicity in the spiritual abuse of the church body, and their failure to speak up when they had the opportunity.
The MH elders had the opportunity to hold Driscoll in check and help him to be the great pastor that he may have been called to be. Instead, they allowed themselves to be bullied and through their action or non-action, allowed Driscoll to become drunk with power and the corrupting influence of fame and riches. They were more interested in their own ministries, influence, and careers, than they were in their calling to serve as overseers of the church and are as guilty of what has happened as Driscoll.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nick, I assumed he was a Young Underling. What did you come up with?
Dan Youngerling:
There it is!
It was just a matter of time before some acolyte dragged that one out.
What took ’em so long?
LawProf wrote:
When I was a young new Christian, the books circulating were all about the high value of transparency, being vulnerable, confession. I wanted to grow into a mature Christian and began applying what I read. Looking back, I was the only person in the room actually doing what they all said was a hallmark of a mature believer. It took awhile to figure out that it was not wise to lay all my cards on the table so others could figure out how they were going to handle me.
My understanding is that a similar sort of indoctrination occurs at Mars Hill, as it does in Calvary Chapels, where a person is repeatedly informed that they must be open, transparent, freely giving up all info that can (and will) be used against them. Since the congregation is said to be made up of many new believers, it may be that they are simply trying to be good Christians by following such teachings. The leaders, meanwhile, are not exampling this themselves. They know better.
Anon wrote:
When the first elders were appointed by the Apostle Paul in Ephesus, as recorded in the book of Acts, they were charged to fulfill the duty to protect the sheep … not the leaders!
This underlines a huge issue of who trains the elders what their responsibility is in these churches? When men stand up to the leader because they know better from training elsewhere, or from simply reading scripture, they get thrown under the bus. Which is precisely why we can’t just leave churches and move on, because that just weeds out those who know better and leaves those who don’t know better. This weeds out elders who would actually do the job God has told elders to do, and lemmings remain to fill the positions.
dee wrote:
Don’t forget Paul Recorde! Can you tell whether he’s near Danville, Va? As I said last night on the last thread:
“Deebs. Notice the mention of Ergun Caner? Likely a poke at NC (both North Carolina and NeoCalvinist) Driscoll fan Dr. John C. , MDiv., Phd. That kindly Puritan scholar wrote an article about how no one should criticize Driscoll, because Caner is worse…. very much like Recorde, Youngerling, and Clones (a musical group ?)…”
@ dee: I kinda suspected that it was the same person…
@ Eagle:
“Do we need to have Mark Driscoll and Jesus face off in a MMA match at Ballard? Does Jesus need to be thrown under the bus?”
One of Driscoll’s deathless sayings is that he couldn’t respect Jesus if he could beat him up. So if he literally threw Him under the bus, he would probably lose his faith. I see one of two possible results: 1) Deep despair. 2) Realizing that he’s stronger than Jesus, he would proclaim himself the Messiah. The fact that this would come so easily to him would confirm his belief.
Guess which result would manifest itself.
“…beat Him up.”
@ Sara:
It is really ok Sara. We had a really good and healthy discussion. Mark’s book did cause harm to the woman who read it first, she spoke to me about it and then I looked at it with her, I was able to share some scripture with her and our whole group got into the action of comforting her. But the real problem is the attitude and teachings that are coming out of this movement. Women are having their spirits broken with the doctrine of Driscoll, I am so angry about that. His book really seems to perpetuate a stereotypes, and further it is irresponsible for someone not trained to put himself out there as an expert in some sort of counseling when his advice or counsel continues to victimize those already wounded. Shame on him. And all those people who support this kind of tripe. This man could not counsel anyone out of a paper bag, period. He has no desire to understand the abused and suffering women in this country, and I sincerely hope and pray he continues to implode.
@ Dave A A:
Nope- said individual is not from that area.
I like Trueman’s words, but I can’t help thinking back to him being one of the “objective” people on the tiny committee that was quickly formed to exonerate Mahaney shortly after Brent’s documents were published online. They looked at the tip of the iceberg that was Mahaney’s wrongdoings and unsurprisingly pronounced him “fit to minister.” I wonder if Trueman would have done the same if some non-famous pastor was in trouble.
@ numo:
I always have said that your are smart. 🙂
@ Dave A A:
OMG…for real? Dr. John C. Carpenter. Dave, someone needs to post this man’s information so we can all work together to shut him down. I feel real sorry for the women in his life. I personally had that one article removed at the post when he came out with it, that and his bipolar behavior towards the moderator made sure it got yanked immediately after it was published. This John Carpenter is a something else. I think we tangled with him over at Warren’s blog, right Dave?
JeffB wrote:
Trueman will always have that hanging over his head. He, along with the typical crowd have surrounded Mahaney and have refused to see what was going on at SGM. They would see him at conferences, sucking up to them, kissing their feet and in some cases throwing around money in the correct directions. Surely he must be OK.
Driscoll, on the other hand, always acted like alpha and I can assure you he did not throw money in any direction but Seattle.
Katie wrote:
Great observation.
Katie wrote:
What you do say can, and will, be used against you. 5 years of blogging has proved that to the Deebs.
Anon wrote:
Here is the real problem under the real problem. I saw this in a former church which supposedly had a plurality of elders. The elder system in most churches is broken. Most elders exist to serve the pastor and his vision. They are chosen for their compliance and their position in the community.
When was the last time that you ever saw an elder board who was not picked because the “in” elders decided who the next ones would be. The slate is prechosen and the vote, if there is one, is pro forma.
So, Mars Hill is no different than my last church in which, as the lead pastor said, “only disagree with me twice in 28 years! ” This is the church in America that we have created. And men like Driscoll show the underbelly of our elder system.
@ Raymond:
I personally will mail 100 Kool Aid packets myself. Just let me know when…please? This sounds like too much fun, and I might find a rainbow colored packet just for giggles!!!
dee wrote:
Chalk it up to having been a moderator on a busy forum at one point. All kinds of people showed up, and some had more than one name/profile. Pretty common internet behavior, unfortunately.
@ dee: I tried to reply to this and ended up replying to myself instead. See comment above this one…
rebeccalynn wrote:
This is so true. But back 4 or 5 years ago, we couldn’t find any woman that had experience this at Mars Hill to come forward and confirm our fears. We read what he said. Watch his sermons. We knew how hurtful his doctrine was. But we couldn’t find people to confirm this.
Was there a reason for this?
rebeccalynn wrote:
I wrote these words in a blog post almost 5 years ago concerning MD’s SoS teaching:
“Why? Because SOS is not JUST about the male pov. Neither is it about the female pov that men approve of and want to see (more on this in a later post). It is also about the wounded female heart that many men don’t want to see and gloss over as though such a thing doesn’t exist. Or if a woman’s heart really is wounded, it is somehow the woman’s own fault and she just needs to shape up, all the while serving the man with a sweet disposition.”
And:
“What do these men know about a woman’s heart? Nothing.
They know nothing because they do not care. The heart of a woman is of little value to them. They care about the outward rather than the inward. If the outward is not seemly enough, then let the ridicule fly. If the outward attitude is not sweet, then run her off and call her Jezebel since she is of no use to the man and not worth his trouble.
Thank God, He knows everything about women. Thank God, He cares deeply about every wound. Thank God, He sees past the sometimes prickly self-defenses of a wounded woman and seeks after her heart. He poured Himself out generously to heal and comfort every woman cursed and spoken against by self-righteous preachers, supposed brothers, false shepherds who attack the ewes to garner favor with the rams.
God heals and comforts without adding shame. He is the LORD our Healer. He is the LORD our Provider. And you can find those aspects of God in SOS.”
I wrote this in frustration, seeing the hurtful teaching coming out of Mars Hill. But people accused me of being an alarmist and not understanding how relevant and spiritual Driscoll was. I knew the teaching was hurtful. But it seemed no one in the world agreed with me, until I stumbled on Freedom4Captives and later TWW.
(Evidence that I wrote this in a blog July of 2009. The above words are towards the end of the blog post.)
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2009/07/manipulating-scripture-for-personal.html
numo wrote:
Ugh 🙁
Dee, I cannot imagine you even in the past as a starry-eyed college chick not even dry behind the ears yet, because now you make me think of a full-on Reverend Mother whom I have oceans of respect for. Enough orbits about the sun change us all in more ways than one.
this is so awesome. and so true.
forgive me for screwing up the formatting in the previous comment. I was trying to comment on muff potter’s (awesome) quote.
Dee…how is Anon 1 doing. I miss her and enjoyed her analysis and commentary. Is she okay? I haven’t seen her in a while.
John wrote:
You’re like the one billionth person I’ve seen just in this last week alone who has said that same thing. I myself have considered it. Driscoll, to most observers, has some sort of issues with sex, that’s for sure, and it does make you wonder if something is going on there.
Maybe all the constant preaching about sex and the lewdness was meant, from his perspective, to get more members at his church, or more views on his You Tube videos, but I think that backfired (if that was the plan).
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
I think it’s more accurate to say that women are sort of trained to be manipulative by gender complementarian upbringing in religious families and churches.
Females are not in some ways left much of a choice as they are growing up.
Also, females tend to use their catty, manipulative techniques on other females, usually not on males. (That point does not go over well on some secular feminist blogs when I bring it up, because secular feminists like to think the biggest bullies against females are males, but IMO and experience, no.)
When you teach girls from a young age that they must always be indirect, passive, kind-hearted, and non-asssertive, and that is because that’s how biblical ladies should act (and I got those messages all the time from my Christian, June Cleaver-ish Mom, as well as the Baptist churches I attended), I was taught to hide or bury anger.
When I got angry, I therefore had to use passive aggressive means (manipulation) to express that anger or to get what I wanted.
A lot of women, even ones not brought up in particularly religious families, were also raised the same way.
Studies I have seen that have been done show that female teachers reward little girls in schools for using stereotypical quiet, submissive, docile behavior in the classroom, while teachers encourage the males to hoop, holler, speak up, speak out, and be assertive.
Sopwith wrote:
Was that Mark Driscoll running his Mars Hill bus over some poor church member? Someone call an ambulance!
Sara wrote:
“Climb ev’ry mountain….”
Reid wrote:
Speaking of which (from this blog):
Driscoll, Acts 29 Deny Haiti Relief Because of a Female Pastor
dee wrote:
Probably some Ele-hater from Charlotte! 🙂 😉
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Have you ever heard of the American restaurant chain Fuddrucker’s? Say that aloud, and it sounds similar to an American cuss word. The first time my mom heard it, she couldn’t stop laughing.
@ rebeccalynn:
And then he reposted his article somewhere else. IIRC, he thought Caner supporters got the first one removed, when in reality it was you! He’s gone quiet on the Driscoll topic for now, from what I’ve seen.
Val wrote:
I wonder if that’s the thinking in other denominations, because there is a Baptist preacher I see on TV who frequently pulls that line out, and similar. Anytime anyone writes him for advice, he shifts the blame to them.
I grew up in SBC, but I don’t remember hearing it too much at the churches I went to, but I see this on TV from TV preachers.
Like, if someone writes this TV preacher for help to say they’ve been praying for 10 years for a healing, or financial help, or, why did God allow my Aunt Mary to die after I prayed 4 months for a healing, why is God not answering my prayer?
It doesn’t matter the problem they write him with, even if it sounds like they did not do anything wrong, he tells them stuff like, “Ask yourself if you have unconfessed sin in your life, do you have unforgiveness in your heart?”
He implies they are not getting their prayers answered because they are doing something wrong. That drives me up the wall.
What do you do if you are that person, and you have been the best Christian you know how to be, so no, you haven’t been living in unrepentant sin, haven’t held grudges, and so forth? Preachers usually have no words for folks like that. Many preachers seem to prefer shifting the blame to the person who is already hurting and seeking answers or reassurance.
@ Moxie:
I went to the adults singles (both genders) class at a large Baptist church once, never been there before, and there were a few odd ducks there all right.
One guy would talk to everyone a little bit which was fine, but sometimes, for no apparent reason, he’d giggle aloud, to himself. There was no context to his giggling. It’s not like someone just told a joke or anything.
My parents used to tell me if I wanted marriage that I’d meet Mr Right at a local church. There are usually not many single guys at any church I go to, but when I have gone to singles classes, many of the singles are odd folks.
I’m introverted, have my own share of problems, and used to be very shy, but I was otherwise normal, and I felt uncomfortable with the other adults singles, like the ‘giggling for no apparent’ reason guy.
When I was a young new Christian, the books circulating were all about the high value of transparency, being vulnerable, confession.
I was talking about this very thing in a thread on Internet Monk a few weeks ago.
I see a lot of that mentioned on Christian TV shows. There are a lot of speakers on Christian shows that implore Christians in the audience to “keep church real,” to be transparent, to share your flaws and struggles with everyone at your church, because they (the talking head) is so tired of acting fake and shiny happy.
I am empathetic with these people, and it would be nice to be vulnerable with other Christians at a local church when you’re hurting, but, I’m older and wiser now. I noticed after my Mom died, and I began seeking out other Christians (family and local church), and I opened up to them, boy did I regret it. I had salt poured into the wounds. I got everything but the love, encouragement and support I needed and wanted.
I got lots of simplistic, happy-clappy advice and suggestions, some condemnation, judgement, criticism. No thank you. Never again, lesson learned. That was also a painful lesson to learn. I thought I could count on other Christians for support and love.
I since learned to be cautious about how much I share and how fast, especially around people (in face to face encounters) I don’t know very well. I don’t trust that just because someone is in a church and says they are Christian I can open up to them.
Daisy wrote:
I believe this is called “taking a field trip to your frontal lobes.”
And Yes, there are times when I’ve been that out-of-it.
Daisy wrote:
When I was at Cal Poly Pomona in the Seventies, there was a local bar/nightclub called “Fumduckers”.
Daisy wrote:
Don’t get me started … I was seriously ill, in danger of dying. Someone carted me off to a “Healing Prayer Room,” and low and behold … I was not healed by the time they were done praying. They told me I did not have enough faith, or else there must be unconfessed sin in my life. Ugh! As if a sick person needs that kind of condemnation. It’s just passing the blame, because it can’t be that their faith wasn’t enough.
Jesus said it was the faith of the people who lowered the lame man through the roof that made the lame man whole. I guess the ladies who prayed for me missed that one.
KMD wrote:
Love your sense of humor, KMD!
So many layers of funny, in so few words.
JeffB wrote:
Well, he was beat up by the Pharisees and hung on a cross and would have been murdered had Jesus not chosen to die on his own for the sins of the world.
Maybe Fiscal doesn’t remember the details of the gospel?
Gotta watch those missions budgets. I started paying attention to a $350K a year missions budget and found that very little of it -in a supposedly very missions minded church- is going towards actual missions work.
The salaries of the men involved in overseeing the missions venture seems okay at first glance, then upon closer inspection, you see how many times a year they take trips to “see the field.” That would be fine if there’s a need, but they are taking their families and including extended and frequent luxury vacations attached to the seemingly unnecessary trips. I know the details because I’m friends with them. After years of living on a tight budget they are excited to be able to live the high life now. SAD.
The missions arrangement of providing for over 50 missionaries for over 50 years was suddenly changed. Almost 30 missionaries were dropped suddenly so there would be more money for the leaders’ trips.
And this is going on in what would be labeled as a healthy church by most. Can you imagine what is going on in churches where the finances are not out in the open and the leadership has had years to perfect their abuses?
@ LawProf:
“The young turks and the pastor would get together to confront him with his “sin” of not working outside the home.”
++++++++++++++++++++
did you or anyone else ever speak plainly and say “you guys are jerks”?
@ Katie:
” then upon closer inspection, you see how many times a year they take trips to “see the field.” taking their families and including extended and frequent luxury vacations attached to the seemingly unnecessary trips.
The missions arrangement of providing for over 50 missionaries for over 50 years was suddenly changed. Almost 30 missionaries were dropped suddenly so there would be more money for the leaders’ trips.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
do you ever speak plainly and say “this is wrong”?
@ Beakerj:
I went home after that meeting and cried too. I saw those ugly words in that book given to my friend. This person meant well but had NO IDEA who the real Mark Driscoll is. I cried because I know there are women in that church right now that are being made victims AGAIN by this slop bucket theology. I am heartsick at that thought. I know that my story has been told, what about theirs? How many have been broken again by the idea that they themselves need to repent for something they did not do. How could I, a little girl in dresses, sneakers and pony tails have had anything to do with what happened to me? How did I somehow attract that deacon to molest me? And then when I told my grandma she told me she loved me and held me tight and then kept me silent because she was afraid for me if I told. How I am I to blame for any of that? Why the hell would I owe anyone an apology? My own mother never knew what happened until just a few years ago, grandma and I kept this one secret together that long. Until I started talking to Dee and Deb and began to share my Acts 29 horror story, I had never really let that secret leave my mouth. I never looked at it, or wanted to deal with it. But when I looked back I began to see a pattern that honestly needed to be broken. I have always tended to wind up in churches that are very anti-women, with strict gender roles and a consequence of those choices brought me here today. I am not to blame for any of the bad stuff that happened, but speaking out gave me alot of clarity. I have felt more whole than I have in about 15 years. I am grateful for this blog and the many others I have commented on, cause once I began using my voice I am not sure I will ever stop. As believers we all need to take a stand and say enough of the abuse, the degradation of women, and all the manipulative theologies out here making more victims. Is not the church supposed to be the place of healing.. well, then it is time that it really is!!
elastigirl wrote:
I’ve not been in Fiscal’s church, but it really sounds like a similar culture to the Calvary Chapels I’ve been in. You are slowly conditioned, like the frog being cooked, to not react. I thought of myself as an educated, independent thinker, who was older and hopefully more mature than most at the church. I have a theology degree from a reputable school and had experience in churches outside of that culture. You’d think I would have quickly figured it out and stood up. Not so easy … Not so clear …
There were so many things that blurred our vision. So many things distracted us from what should have been obvious; and the relationships make it difficult to be honest and objective … at least before you get burned, that is. Once burned, the scales fell off my eyes and then suddenly I could see clearly. Wow! It was far worse than I ever could have imagined.
By the time you can see, you are also intimately acquainted with the price of speaking up. It’s so devastating to you and your family, that you just want to keep your mouth shut and get out fast. You nod submissively and RUN! Then when you can stomach the backlash you take to the internet and your contacts list and start talking … and never shut up!
In my case, the pastor was finally found out, unearthing far more serious sin than any of us had figured out. Even with that clear-cut of a case, those of us who were slandered, thrown out of the church and shunned in our own neighborhoods (read our kids lost their friends,) still were not received back. They were trained for so long that they must not talk to people who are not blindly loyal, that they still can’t, to this day, speak to us.
I may not be a Fiscal gospel road kill, but I know the cultural dynamic that takes well-meaning people and turns them into empty headed lemmings.
@ Dave A A:
Nope I made the phone call myself and spoke to the circulation department about what he had been up to. Forwarded them screenshots of some of his more abusive comments. Specially the one where he called me Satan and it was off the site in the next half hour. They also said they would do a better job vetting out the folks who contribute so as not to attract the douche canoes anymore. I was surprised at how willing they actually were until I saw he had already attacked the moderator several times with his vitrol. He did most of the work for me. That was frown upside down kinda day for me I confess.
Stuck in moderation.
elastigirl wrote:
I have spoken directly with the missions pastor, someone I’ve known for a long time. I’ve also spoken with an elder, along with other concerned mission supporters. The elder says the power structure has changed and the committee that is set up to keep him in check has him and 2 yes men out voting the two elders. The missions pastor is defensive and imo not listening. He just talks a blue streak and confuses the issue till the time runs out. The other supporters either left or decided to simply keep supporting the cut missionaries regardless of this man’s decisions.
The truly sad part is I spoke with the pastor of this large church. He supports the missions pastor and said, “Yeah, it sucks to be the missionary who gets cut. But it will be good for our new direction.” My conclusion is that they don’t want to hear. The organizational chart is skewed so there’s no recourse.
And to further complicate matters, elastigirl, I’m one of their out-going missionaries. Standing up to them and saying they are screwing up an historically healthy missions outreach, will probably cost me. I’ve even gone to bat for two of the missionary couples they fired and got them rehired. Later I found out they just fired others in their place. It was a lose/lose.
I believe the issue is growing faster than the infrastructure could keep up. They grew by 400% in 3 years. Suddenly, the congregation lost it’s vote and the elders (I’m guessing) are no longer powerful in the more and more celebrity driven church. The money they are pulling in is outrageous. Yes, they are doing good things with it, but leaders are less and less accountable and I am seeing glimpses of financial wrongs growing.
Typical: Lower the accountability, raise the money and VOILA! It’s the manure that helps the corruption grow!
in moderation
__
“The Father’s love, came richly to us, in the person of His Son, Jesus…He stirs da healing waters, He sets us free…”
Katie,
Jesus also said, “take up thy bed and go home…”
i know itz not much, but I pray things R ok now…
(sadface)
pray’in , pray’in , pray’in , pray’in , pray’in…
[Sorry this was your past experience, lit’l sparrow…]
(kind meaning folks can be so dumb at times, huh?)
hmmm…
thy sins were forgiven by da one who ‘forever’ holds your widdle hand…
(happyface goes here ! )
The Lord is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, ever abounding in love towards you…
And surely God demonstrated His own love for you in this; that while you were still confused in your sins, Christ’s redemption was totally wait’in 4you; so that in believing in His name…you R free…
YaHoooooooo!
Pls. rely on the love God has for You!
… “He is good n’ His abounding love, – abounding love… (sweet !!!) endures 4you 4ever…”
pls. take strength in this, k?
Sopy
__
Inspirational relief: Joy Williams: “We”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WERMZRP-Sw8
Just because:Joy Williams – “How Deep The Father’s Love For Us”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngIR-EtbvQo
🙂
—
Larry Tolbert wrote:
;-(
Oh, go put a sock in it.
Dan Youngerling wrote:
Dear DY:
You’re full of something you step in when you get too close to the south end of a northbound horse.
Signed,
Zooey
Speaking of elders . . . my husband and I are waist deep in elder muck and will be neck deep in the next few days. Would love prayer from any who feel inclined. The past week has been sleepless and oppressive as I have come to understand the reason I have not been able to enjoy worship and fellowship for the past year . . . and I thought it was simply a disagreement with doctrine. Silly me. Some beloved elders are already under the bus. The light will be shining as to why quite soon . . . deeds done in dark, back rooms never bear good fruit. God, please have mercy.
Bridget wrote:
Bridget, I will pray for you!
__
Bridget
, don’t you quit on us now…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KY_pTVfz3gU
Pray’in.
Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
Mountain movers r us…
-snicker-
hum, hum, hum… ♩ ♪ ♫ ♬ Pastor, It’s just your jive talkin’ this church telling me lies, yeah
Jive talkin’ this church wears a disguise,
spiritual jive talkin’ members misunderstood, yeah
Jive talkin’ pastor, you’re really no good…
Nobody any longer believes what you guyz say,
It’s just your jive talkin’ that gets in the way,
Leavin’ me lookin’ like a dumbstruck lemming? (1)
(that ain’t no good…)
Its all that jive talkin’ pastor just gets in your eye, yeah
♪ ♫ Oh jive talkin’
Jive talkin’
Jive talkin’… (2)
hum, hum, hum… 🙂
*
Jesus, pls. bring ‘your’ light n’ victory to Bridget’s present situation!
ATB
Sopy
__
(1) ‘Lemming’: a member of a large group of people who blindly follow one another on a course of action that may lead to a very bad end for all dem who keepz drink’in da nefariously addicting ‘Jive’ KoolAid.
(2) Comic relief? : Bee Gees – “Jive Talkin'”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBw25CrUS-o
(Lyrics reflect parody adaptation ) – Lyrics Songwriters: Barry, Maurice & Ernest Gibb, Robin Hugh. “Jive Talkin'” © Warner/Chappell Music, Universal Music Publishing Group.; All rights Reserved. [US Title 17 Infringement Unintended.]
;~)
—
You’ve all been busy overnight, clearly, so I’ve a lot of comments to catch up on!
Part 1 of 3
@ Katie: The way your story unfolds here is similar to my and Lesley’s, and of course to that of many other people who’ve been thrown under similar buses. I don’t know whether you’ve visited joyful exiles, in which Paul and Jonna Petry tell their own story of being thrown out of Fiscal’s empire; but their story is similar too.
One angle is the “sheep amongst wolves” Thing. Specifically, we were all fooled by wolves in sheep’s clothing. We all attempted to walk things through with leadership in some bible-consistent manner, on the assumption that the leaders were playing by the same rules as we were. Jonna Petry’s story is especially instructive; at each stage of it all beginning to go wrong, she wondered what was wrong, why something didn’t seem right, why Fiscal would have been so angry about x, y and z, and whether it was all just her. Had she (or any of us) been working in a secular organisation where the CEO made no secret of his personal ambition, she wouldn’t have wondered any of this. She wouldn’t have reflexively ascribed the highest godly motives to an ungodly man, and being on her guard, she would have found it much easier to work around him.
@ rebeccalynn:
Someone linked Zack Hoag’s article on Driscoll with a clip of Driscoll asking people to not throw rocks because he stumbled in what he said.
Zach said something along the lines that he’d rather see Driscoll repent and get right than to disappear. But he wasn’t holding his breath.
He also asked for others to chime in.
I really wanted to, but that would of required registering with disgus, something I have attempted in the past but got tired of fighting with.
But I still wanted to chime in and link your above comment in the comment section.
So instead, I did what I often do.
I blog about it.
So I’ve linked Zack and quoted you on my blog today.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2014/03/dont-throw-rocks-really.html
Part 2 of 3
There’ve been several comments, especially on the recent Fiscal, Furtick, Gothard, 9 Marks etc thread, about parachurch organisations and the local church.
Stuck Record alert…
So here’s the obvious point which, like the proverbial emperor’s new clothes, has been hiding in plain sight for so long that nobody even notices it any more. Each particular local church is itself a para-church organisation. Mars Hill Church is a para-church organisation. Every “church” affiliated to 9 Marks is a para-church organisation. Every other particular “church” in Seattle is a para-church organisation. At best, they are each a part of the local church. There’s nothing wrong with that in a city of 600 kilopeople with a large number of professing believers.
If only these separate, lone-ranger groups would come under the authority of the local church, it would be much harder for leaders to arrogate unbiblical authority to themselves and subsequently abuse it. Imagine if Mars Hill Church were answerable to the local church (as Paul might have addressed them, “the saints in Seattle”)! Fiscal would have to get along with, and mutually submit to, people who came from whole nuther traditions and had honestly and studiously reached whole nuther conclusions about scribsher. He – along with everybody else – would have to answer to people he did not appoint, would not have chosen, and could not fire. If he were willing to die to self, then he could be a true leader (Romans 12) instead of a false teacher, pastor, prophet, apostle or anything else that he is not.
Part 3 of 3
Anagrams for the troll.
“Dan Youngerling” isn’t quite an anagram of “young underling”. The best I came up with was the one I mentioned, “rears herdlings” for Shed Laringer. But they do all look like made-up names, don’t they?
@ Daisy:
Daisy, the last time I was a visitor to a Sunday school class, the regulars spent the class talking about how to limit ‘newcomers’. Now, that is an awkward Christian moment.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Never stop, the truth sets us free and there are many who need freeing. You go girl!
@ Bridget:
I am so, so sorry for this conflict. I know that you are doing the right thing. If they get mean with you, let the Deebs know. We shall rise to the defense of our Bridget and that would bring a spotlight on things. We are dusting off our armor as we speak!
Sara wrote:
I like that “Reverend Mother”. Does this mean I get to swat trolls with rulers? Those things hurt. My friends in parochial schools demonstrated this to me.
Part 4 of 3
On socially awkward types, and being transparent, in church. Here in Blighty, the problem is less that any confessed sins will be used to accuse you later, and more that any admitted vulnerabilities will be used as an excuse to treat you like a helpless baby.
If you were to ask me (which you haven’t, but I’ll pretend you have so that I can massage my ego by answering you): does God transform you into a new creation as soon as you’re born again, or does he take a lifetime over it? then my answer would be: Yes, he does.
I’m hardly the first person to come up with that, but my point is that sometimes in our church cultures we miss that point. We try and take on the mantle and authority of mature believers when we’re simply believers. I’m a Christian, and I fancy myself as a bit of a counsellor and pastor, so I can solve all your problems. The trouble is that because I actually have very little wisdom and few resources with which to solve them, they only way I can do it is to trivialise your problems until I’ve reduced them to a size which my pat answers can solve. If your only tool is a hammer, as the saying goes, everything looks like a nail. But if it’s a toy hammer, you have to go around pretending to fix things by hitting imaginary nails.
Daisy wrote:
I think he does it because that is what he thinks and dreams about. I have always found him to be a bit obsessed with the subject.
@ Uppity Bimbo:
Hi Uppity
Welcome to TWW.
@ Dave A A:
Right ballpark-you and numo need to get together. The two of you could smoke all of them out.
@ Dave A A:
Right ballpark-you and numo need to get together. The two of you could smoke all of them out.Katie wrote:
This is the one of the most despicable things that these types of people do to others. i have watched parents of children who have died become deeply depressed because they “didn’t have enough faith.”
This way, the charlatans always win-healed or not healed.
@ Katie:
You story is so sad and shared by many people who read here.
@ Katie:
I am sorry about moderation in the middle of the night-we are all sleeping usually-EST. You probably tripped some word that awakens the ever present mod bot.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This is an important comment.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Two of them start preaching at the other for being in a bar, indicating that neither is living like a redeemed saint. The rebel enjoys his beer and leaves the other two arguing over who is the greater preacher.
dee wrote:
So you like Temptress AND Reverend Mother?
Odd combination. Was going to tell you to pick one. Then I realized that by forcing you into that box I’m playing into the whore/virgin dichotomy that men like Driscoll thrive on. And I’m so opposed to their games that I’m gonna back away from this one, slowly.
@ sad observer:
And at MH, those who tried ended up under the bus.
@ sad observer:
And at Mars Hill, at least two who tried ended up under the bus.
Muff Pottter wrote:
Just to give credit where credit is due, all of it goes to Muff for the above awesomeness. I was commenting on his comment using my iPhone (too late) last night and that never goes well. I wish I’d come up with it, though. It’s epic 🙂
The joke competition:
A hypocrite, a rebel and a Pharisee walk into a bar…
An Attorney wrote:
Brilliant!
If I might suggest: it would be 7.3 % funnier still if you replaced “arguing” with “brawling”.
@ Bridget:
“The past week has been sleepless and oppressive …Some beloved elders are already under the bus. The light will be shining as to why quite soon . . . deeds done in dark, back rooms never bear good fruit.”
++++++++++++++++
hi, bridget. I fully know the sleeplessness over this kind of thing. you and your circumstances are quite anonymous. Can you explain more, for the sake of “elucidation”?
the honesty here, getting these things out in words (nailing it with words) which people are doing is amazing… it’s like fog suddenly lifting and things coming into crystal clear focus.
when someone has an aha moment, they have some momentum or magnetism and can bring others along with them into the clarity. by communicating, spelling it out.
Katie wrote:
I remember a cutesy video shown by the pastor at the neocal church I and family attended for over a year (that ended up being a destructive cult). They showed this guy saying some fairly reasonable-sounding things, stuff like, “Look, you don’t know these people in your groups very well yet, you need to establish some healthy boundaries, hold back a little, don’t just make yourself open and vulnerable to anyone.” Can’t remember the exact wording, but that was the gist. Said it all with a nice smile and smooth voice. The punch line at the end of the video was he said “Let me introduce myself” and he slapped a name tag on his chest: “Satan”.
I certainly understand the notion of being transparent (I tend to take it too far), Paul said as much (“Confess your sins one to another…”). But of course it has to be in a milieu where you’ve known people, seen them through good and bad, seen them at their worst/best and learned that they’re the type of person whom you can trust. This artificial manufactured “community” that so many of these churches promote and the demand that you submit yourself fully to them and share your darkest inner rooms when you’ve perhaps known this 20-something group leader and earnest 20-something group members for months is foolishness writ large. It’s just a cultic means of controlling people and creating artificially “meaningful relationships”.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Yes!
Moderation, boom, boom.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
And 74.3 % of all statistics are made up on-the-spot.
Daisy wrote:
The teacher I live with never encouraged anybody to misbehave in the classroom. Or at home. Or at church. Or at the mall. Teachers are a lot of things, some of which can get on other people’s nerves. but encouraging people to misbehave? Nah.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
“What’r yuh drinkin’?” asks the mixologist as the religious trilogy saddle on up to the bar.
“How about an Under-the-Bus Bloody Mary?” says the Pharisee.
“NDA Mocktale for me,” says the Rebel.
“Just holy water for me,” says the Hypocrite. “I’m the designated bus driver …”
One of the catholic historians on here needs to comment on this one. When I was in RCIA the priest gave a talk on the development of confession to a priest in the catholic church. He said that originally when someone had sinned and needed to be reconciled to the church they had to go around individually and confess to each person in the church (I assume these were little churches) and be individually reconciled with each. He said that this caused a lot of trouble and commotion in the church with people getting to know everybody else’s business and people taking sides and such. In that climate (and for other reasons also perhaps) confession to a priest as a representative of the church developed. This did not, of course, address the issue of confession to God–this was specifically about the church.
I know not what the truth may be.
I tell the tale as ’twas told to me.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Don’t ever stop. The more women that find their voices, the less power Mark Driscoll has. And this both frightens and angers him.
Mark Driscoll tries to rob women of their voices. I was aware of this, again, back in 2009 and was discussing with a friend on her blog.
http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/discoveries/#comment-379
Sorry for my insistence on walking down memory lane.
Right or wrong, I’m feeling a little vindicated.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Alright…. show’s over… I know who you are, Clink Cubkeb
elastigirl wrote:
g manye amonElasti – This is onelastigirl wrote:
They were beyond jerks, they were, in my opinion, destructive monsters. E.g., when one young man decided to move away to get a job in another part of the country and because he was interested in pursuing a relationship w/ a Christian grad student in that area, he asked to have one final meeting with pastor to pray and reminisce. Pastor said fine, then secretly got the Board of Elders together, and when young man went to pastor’s office a few days before he was scheduled to leave, all five of them started attacking him with how unsubmissive he was to attempt to leave w/o them giving their approval (by the way, they’d never said anything negative about it before), told him they’d tell his new pastor how ungodly/unsubmissive he was, told him the only reason he was leaving was because of his sinful libido and then they started parading out privately-confessed sins, deep dark stuff, and discussing them openly among the group. They cut him off every time he tried to defend himself.
Yes, I told pastor what a monster he was. The church folded about 18 months later, people just couldn’t take it any more, went to pastor, told him they were “spiritually dead”, and that was that.
Katie wrote:
They probably were told to blame you for the pastor’s fall. We have to realize that many people adopt their faith like people adopt a football team as a fan. They can learn all about the church and the leaders and the doctrines, argue forcefully for them, feel passionately about them, get teary-eyed when singing about them, praying for them, shout “Lord, Lord” every Sunday, Wednesday, etc., but the truth isn’t in them and they just don’t know the Lord at all. In fact, it’s probably closer to say they hate Him–that’s why they expend so much effort harming His followers.
I’m not saying all destructive leaders, enabling wives, starry-eyed followers don’t know Jesus, because we can all be stupid and deceived at times, but when I look at the fruits, year after year, I have to admit that a lot of people who are most passionate about church hate Jesus and His followers.
Dave A A wrote:
You’re right. I think John Carpenter is from NC from what I recall. You’d think after all this time–just the last 5 months!–the critical thinking would have kicked in. Can’t even blame being young on him either.
@ Katie:
“You are slowly conditioned, like the frog being cooked, to not react. I thought of myself as an educated, independent thinker, who was older and hopefully more mature than most at the church. I have a theology degree from a reputable school and had experience in churches outside of that culture. You’d think I would have quickly figured it out and stood up. Not so easy … Not so clear …
There were so many things that blurred our vision. So many things distracted us from what should have been obvious; and the relationships make it difficult to be honest and objective … at least before you get burned, that is. Once burned, the scales fell off my eyes and then suddenly I could see clearly. Wow! It was far worse than I ever could have imagined.”
++++++++++++++
ain’t it the truth.
I appreciate your comments, Katie. I fully understand. I fancy myself very objective, enlightened, & educated but I, too, was under the spell for some years. I cannot believe I succumbed to it. I thought I was better than that. Never again.
the same fervor & persuasion-to-be-resisted as a multi-level marketing rally, but the God card legitimizes it all with great ease.
@ Katie:
“…empty headed lemmings”
++++++++++
Ha! great word. “You empty headed lemming!!” i’m putting that one in my back pocket. With anticipation.
Being upfront, plain-speaking, & calling a spade a spade (whatever word sums these up) has fast become my #1 value.
(well, it ties with treating people the way I want to be treated)
this whole amazing thing that is happening right now concerning Mars Hill / schmark schmiscoll has ultra-fast-forwarded plain-speaking-directness-to-religious-influence to the same priority as “do you have your homework? did you brush your teeth? are you wearing underwear?”
@ Katie:
“Lower the accountability, raise the money and VOILA! It’s the manure that helps the corruption grow!”
++++++++++++
what you describe is despicable. stupid.
bringing things into the open for public scrutiny can bring pressure for positive change. can be a sudden strong wind that blows the fog away. can you name names? the name of the church? can you find an investigative journalist?
to me what you describe is so lousy & rotten in the ethics department. deceptive. The missionaries, the people in the church who sacrificially give of their money deserve better. GOD deserves better.
@ LawProf:
Good. a merciful end for all involved, even the jerks themselves.
good for you for speaking plainly.
no dripping syrup required for speaking truth.
I think Christians are addicted to sugar. unless words’ potency is processed out into ambiguity and folded in sweetness, they can’t be tolerated.
but not you, LawProf.
I think many are fast becoming sick of it all, too.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Just FYI – mine is made up, too. I hope I’m not a troll without knowing it 😮
>elastigirl wrote:
________________________
Thanks, I have my own issues that are not minor, I can be a massive jerk, but one thing I hope I’ve learned after being in three cultic churches which I stupidly blundered into, is not to remain silent and not to put up with the gaslighting ever again.
Anyone notice how silent MD’s facebook and twitter feed have become over the past two days? Very unlike him. Something coming? Like a public apology?
nmgirl wrote:
😯 I’m sorry. I bet that was incredibly awkward, in addition to being hurtful and maybe offensive.
At this stage in my life, I would have called them out on that. I would have pointed out to them how awful it sounded, and as a newbie in their class, ‘I found it offensive.’
If that sort of thing had happened to me in my younger years, I would have remained silent and just never returned to their class.
A New Problem wrote:
I don’t know… you don’t write like one, but if you’re unsure you should probably stay out of direct sunlight.
JadedOne wrote:
I don’t follow either, but if the content has dried up it probably just means the ghost-writer is on gardening leave.
elastigirl wrote:
Yes, indeed. With a need to keep my head clear and be prepared for the next few days, I don’t want to go into much detail now. The crux of the issue is authoritarianism in leadership. The kind Jesus warned against when instructing his disciples. Be assured, this can come in soft, genteel voices that appear loving, kind and repentant, yet aren’t.
Here is something else I’ve seen. When you personally believe in a hierarchy in the Trinity, comp in marriage (hard or soft), then you are going to believe in hierarchy in church government no matter what you say you are going to practice. Your fundamental beliefs (doctrines) are going to come through in your life and practices apart from the Spirit bringing revelation and complete change in your life from your beliefs (doctrines) forward. For me, anyway, this need to control is a complete lack of faith in God to work in and amongst his people. Nuf said.
Bridget wrote:
This also makes the recipient appear to be the cray cray one for responding to what’s actually being said/done.
Bridget, I’m so sorry. Thinking of you.
LawProf wrote:
😯 That is obnoxious and dangerous teaching, especially for someone who is very vulnerable and/or rather naive.
Jesus said there would be false Messiahs, wolves dressed as sheep and false teachers, and Paul also discussed that too. You are to be on the look out for them and not assume everyone who says they believe in Jesus can be trusted.
Having boundaries is safe and normal. Yikes and gag me that a church is shaming people for trying to be healthy and safe.
I wrote about my experiences of trying to “open up” to people (including Christian people) in a post several posts above yours on this page (this post).
As a result of what happened to me at that time in my life, I learned to take sharing very personal things about myself (in face to face encounters) at a very slow rate and not to divulge everything about myself and not to just anyone (even other Christians).
So that church can take their “having boundaries is Satanic” view point and cram it.
Nancy wrote:
I did not say misbehave.
What I was getting at is that teachers in these studies allowed and encouraged boys to be assertive.
Male students were rewarded by the teahcers for being assertive (and/or encouraged to be so, or allowed to be so),
But the teachers rewarded females for being passive, quiet, being rule followers, and being perfectionists.
Males were rewarded and encouraged for speaking up – for having a view and expressing it. Females were rewarded for keeping still, not voicing opinions, etc.
Gender Bias in Education
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Is this a thing?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
LOL Good point HUG, why don’t his visions include a loving, caring, honest community who is not caught up in worldly power and money? The fact he has only had visions about women’s sex lives is pretty telling.
@ Mara:
“Gardening leave” is a standard euphemism in the UK for being suspended from work (albeit usually paid) pending disciplinary proceedings. Eg, for questioning your boss in some way (that is not a disciplinary offence in most healthy corporations, but we’re not talking about a healthy corporation here).
@ Nick Bulbeck:
LOL! I just spit my drink all over the screen. We have no idea who writes what for that guy. The problem with his marketing schtick is that “selling the Brand” trumped personal integrity and Christian witness. The older generation requires integrity the younger generation likes genuineness. That doesn’t leave a large mark share for his exposed brand of “other peoples work” and dubious popularity.
OT
Rachel Held Evans has a blog post talking about abuse in Patriarchial / complementarian circles.
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/patriarchy-abuse
@ Sopwith:
Thank you, Sopy! 🙂
@ Bridget:
Bridget, just prayed.
It is so confusing when you are in the middle of it. You question yourself and all sorts of things create a fog of distractions from the real issues. I know this can suck the life out of you, but hang in there. Keep strong, though you don’t feel like it. Don’t be weary in well-doing. You are in this position for “such a time as this.” May God give the strength and then give you the recovery you need afterwards.
I’m glad for the others that you are there now.
I’m a writer, and my agent, Chip MacGregor, is well-known in the industry as a real “mover and shaker.” So when he weighs in on MD situation, you can bet he completely nails the guy.
To wit: http://www.chipmacgregor.com/questions-from-beginners/whats-wrong-buying-way-onto-bestseller-list/
I’m catching up, because I’ve been away at a conference… yeah, a Christian one, too… (ducks to avoid flying objects)
(but some keynotes and sessions were by female pastors… am I redeemed?) 😉
Daisy wrote:
When what I say can and will be used against me, I’ll not be too inclined to be transparent. As a stereotypical millennial, I value transparency – not to say that people of other generations don’t, of course! With that said, I’m far more transparent with my “secular world” friends, some of whom are Christians, than I am with the “church people” Christians I meet in Sunday morning services and small groups. I’m simply not fond of being transparent with people who have a track record of stabbing in the back people who admit weakness.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yes, Nick, I have visited Joyful Exiles. I have been drawn to watching you all talk through your unfolding issues in your Christian circle, and found many similarities to what I experienced in Calvary Chapel. I like the way you all are handling it.
Nick, did your situation unfold in England?
Btw, I did not post a response to the TTU apology. Sometimes I run out of steam on some subjects. I’ll let you know if I ever decide to do it.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well put! This is exactly what I have done in the past and how my CC pastor operated. I will always be grateful for a roomful of patient older people who gently set me straight. It was the beginning of an awakening, of sorts, some 30 years ago. My poor ex-pastor still doesn’t realize he’s unwise and unrepentant.
dee wrote:
It is more common than I had realized; which is why I like reading here. I can see more clearly from other’s stories what the common denominators are in spiritual abuse. It’s also comforting to know I’m not alone and that speaking up was the right thing to do.
Josh wrote:
Couldn’t agree more, Josh! If you give (some) of them the ammunition, be ready to have it used against you. How sad…
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Just for the record, I caught this. LOL!
LawProf wrote:
The blight of Evangelical subculture these days, imo.
@ Sara,
The ‘Reverend Mother’ appellation for Dee was pilfered from the Herbert’s (Frank the elder & Brian the son) Dune series of books. I thought it prudent to be up-front and honest about that. I mean after all, hasn’t a certain Seattle based preacher been pilloried to the nth degree for plagiarism? Why should Potter get a pass?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I knew it had to be a euphemism of some sort.
Euphemism: a mild or pleasant word or phrase that is used instead of one that is unpleasant or offensive
Because a “Gardening leave” sounds very pleasant to me as I’m stuck in the office when where I’d really rather be is out in the beautiful weather, gardening.
I hope Driscoll’s ghost writer grows to love his gardening leave. It HAS to be better than being harangued by Driscoll.
LawProf wrote:
No, I had a relatively minor issue that he handled in a bizarre way. That opened my eyes with each misstep he took. Over a 16 month period, I saw and realized more and more, till it became obvious that he had his own set of rules, but everyone else was held to a different standard. He was actually an outright bully.
It was a year and a half after he removed me from the church, that he was caught with several women and tons of ill-gotten gain $. But those issues were merely symptoms.
In case it hasn’t been seen:
https://mobile.twitter.com/CelebrityPastor
elastigirl wrote:
Funny you should mention multi-level marketing, because several of the involved women were also into MLM. I had to tell them that I would not buy their products based on principle that I don’t do business in the church, nor could I violate my conscience of participating in someone using up their Christian friend circles. (No offense to those who are selling to their friends without using them.)
Often I was at the alter receiving people who were coming forward for prayer, when they would interrupt the prayer time to try and sell me on their product “out of the goodness of their hearts wanting to help me be a better me!” Ugh! I told them kindly, but firmly, that the prayer alter was not a place of business. But these women were easily swooped up in the MLM hype, especially after they returned from their big Rah Rah gatherings.
I actually thought I was there to help these poor misguided young women who meant well but didn’t know any better. Now I just think I enabled a crooked machine to eat people up.
Mark Driscoll has posted to Dave Kraft’s post on page 8 of the comments. Very lengthy.
http://davekraft.squarespace.com/posts/2014/3/8/do-you-swear-to-tell-the-truth-the-whole-truth-and-nothing-b.html?currentPage=8#comments
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nope, looks like he is taking a year off from social media–according to the post on Dave Krafts post.
Daisy wrote:
Daisy,
Actually, they can’t “shove it”, because that church doesn’t exist anymore. The pastor who led it and his right hand man were vicious liars/possible sociopaths masquerading as “Godly men”. That church finally became so overtly abusive that every single couple over 30 (except the pastor and wife) left in exasperation, rage or disgust. Finally even the 20-something neocals couldn’t take it anymore and the church simply dissolved.
JadedOne wrote:
Driscoll: “Train leaders (especially men)”
Lest anyone forget.
Mara wrote:
That made the hairs on my neck stand up when I read that. MD may as well be grooming them himself, as he has been for years. As I have noted here before, I believe there is a connection with the homes that Mars Hill owns which houses these young men–who are promised jobs as elders, deacons, and more. A personal acquaintance was going to leave everything with the promise of his own church if he served for one year in another state. Unfortunately/fortunately he became a victim of the December staff cuts at Mars Hill and decided he needed something more stable to support his young family.
@ Mara:
Not much in that comment encouraged me at all, except he’s spending more time with his family.
@ JadedOne:
Wow. This is my opinion only….but having walked away from an abusive church in the middle of the ‘senior’ pastor getting caught with his pants down – and seeing the spin that took place in the wake of that….this letter is very familiar. Sound apologetic for the things you can’t reasonably deny…but do so in a way that makes the victims of your abuse look ungrateful for your reaching out to reconcile if they don’t accept….talk about how Jesus is all in the middle of what you are NOW doing….talk about family and loving them and praising them….yep. V E R Y familiar….. 🙁
Mark Driscoll says he’s cutting back by going off social media for at least the remainder of the year, so he can spend energy on his priorities.
Here’s his list of what he’s doing:
1. “growing in Christ-like character”
2. Wife and kids (3 teenagers, total 5 kids)
3. Serving Mars Hill Church
4. Bible teaching
5. Blogs and podcasts at Resurgence.
6. Teaching at Corban University and Western Seminary (Starting this fall)
7. Making disciples
8. Planting churches
9. Speaking engagements (though less)
10. Evangelistic outreaches
11. Writing (though trying to lessen the intense schedule he has.
Most of these priorities, alone, would be all consuming. He says he’s cutting back and then adds teaching at two seminaries in the fall. I had a pastor of a small church that taught at one seminary; and that, alone, ruined him as a pastor. He began to recycle sermons because there was no time to prepare and see his wife and kids on his day off. And he wasn’t writing books, managing a mega-church, and speaking elsewhere.
This doesn’t pass the sniff test for me.
@ Jeannette Altes:
I agree with our assessment, Jeannette.
@ Jeannette Altes:
…meanwhile, his victims were actually thrown under the bus, lied about….and I stood by one of them while she sued him and the church (the church because his wife, who knew of his past behavior in this area, did nothing as the Church Administrator to protect future victims). It got ugly. He finally offered to settle out of court when he realized she was not going to be intimidated into backing down…and she settled because she didn’t want her young sons to have to go through the added trauma of the publicity it would cause.
So, this letter does not encourage me. He may get smarter at the ‘flaunting his bad behavior’ thing, and even behave for a while. But, if he is anything like my ex-pastor, he will be right back at it within a year, at most…..
Katie wrote:
And this one makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end.
Have you ever followed his Bible teaching?
As our famous Nick Bulbeck is quoted as saying:
“Mark Driscoll isn’t a teacher, but is merely adept at using the Bible as a sock-puppet that always agrees with him”.
(He’ll correct me if I didn’t get it quite right and he knows I don’t mind at all. It’s his quote, after and I believe in giving credit where credit is due.)
dee wrote:
I love Bette Davis. ;=0
Jeannette Altes wrote:
As I said, I won’t be satisfied in his repentance until he repents Zacchaeus style, where he pays back double everyone he has defrauded.
I don’t see anything like that in his comment.
I only see, “Me, I, my,” etc. No concern for all the lives he has destroyed.
@ Katie:
I agree with your dissection of his “new priorities”.
I also agree that he can safely repent for certain issues, but he still has not come forward regarding Dave Kraft–unless he expects to put him in the column of the others where forgiveness hasn’t happened yet. No mention about being the first to shoot the arrow across the bow in Dave’s regard either.
JadedOne wrote:
The old Bunker strategy – go into hiding, engage only with the fanboys, and wait for it all to blow over. That whole post was as empty as a politician’s promise. No acknowledgement of greed or how badly he’s treated people. The only thing he’s sorry for is that he was exposed for the narcissist he is.
Josh wrote:
This is stinkin brilliant!! When The Kid was young she was always after us to be more involved. We were a homeschool family and belonged to a church and also attended a bible study that had mostly homeschool families. We were involved to a point but keep alot to ourselves. When she was about 20 she told me “man you and dad are smart”. We had played it close to the vest and now after 12+ years (and plenty of Gothard) the church has closed and fellowship has broken. It was ugly and there is still fallout. We try and do what we can to pick up the pieces.
Mara wrote:
Here’s a line that played in my mind when I read Driscoll’s post:
“But my dreams they aren’t as empty as my conscience seems to be”
JadedOne wrote:
Oh formatting, how I hate thee.
@ Katie:
Through our experience, it was a Godsend we had our kids in public school. My son’s friends are Christian, from other churches, so the fallout for us was minimal. Plus, they now have great friends at our new church.
It makes me suspicious of churches wanting to monopolize all your time. I remember reading the stories of abuse at CJ Mahaney’s churches. The kids all went to the church schools, the families were pressured to meet together weeknights, any time a crisis came up as well as Sundays and hold down a job. How would anyone maintain outside friends in these situations? – often all their family attended too. So, when tragedy struck, they rug was ripped out from under the victim’s families and they were completely ostracized, landing hard in a strange, non-church world.
Churches aren’t healthy if they are insular communities.
JeffT wrote:
“Nobody knows what it’s like to be the bad man…”
Apparently it’s lucrative.
Still waiting for him to pay back double to all those he has defrauded.
Then I’ll know he’s serious and that it’s not just spin and deflection.
Pajama Pages is reporting that NewSpring and Perry Noble are also Result Source clients.
http://www.pajamapages.com/newspring-and-perry-noble-are-also-result-source-clients/
BeakerJ wrote:
Indubitably
It looks like Driscoll’s letter has been driscollized™ from Kraft’s website.
@ Anon:
So that explains why I couldn't find it…
Anon wrote:
hmmmmm….. Wonder why (I assume) Dave Kraft would remove it?
Mykingdomforahorse wrote:
Me too! Davis was awesome.
They had style. They had grace. And Rita Hayworth gave good face.
from: Madonna’s song Vogue
@ Mara:
Wow. Thank you Mara!!! I have been reading up on your blog and really loved your rebuttal to Mark’s teaching on Songs. I am humbled that you included one of my quotes in your blog. I did not realize how much talking would do for me. I have started leaving my house more and even driving the car again. I have not driven in over four years. I have been in stasis it seems. Recently I made friends with my new pastor’s wife. We had been attending this church for almost four years and I would go back stay back from everyone. Instead of hiding away in my home with my books I have started going on adventures, I have started an ebay business and it is doing well. All sorts of things started happening when I took back what someone had taken from me. My story is out there, you can see what happened not only to me but my daughters, son, and husband. But there is so much to do and say isn’t there? So many other stories not yet told. The truth is there are more of me out there, some as wounded as I was, and frozen in their pain. I want to see those people listened too and helped. I will continue to get better, make myself leave the house, and reach out to people so I can be part of the solution. My prayer is that as people speak out help will come for them, I won’t hold my breath over Mark’s repentance we all know how that will turn out. Instead I will focus on sharing, speaking and praying for all those wounded and hurt.
Nancy wrote:
That’s my understanding, too, Nancy.
I have read somewhere that the model for the change came from the Irish church, which had long used the model of the preChristian Irish in establishing another individual as your “Anam Chara” ( literally “spiritual friend”) to whom you confessed, & who was honor bound to never, ever, reveal your secrets to any other person, even under threat of death.
(It was only as I was typing this that I realized how apropos the timing of this is. Being so close to 🙂 St Patrick’s feast day, & all).
Val wrote:
Totally agree!
Our last church actually went out of their way to plan events during any town events to keep the people busy at church and not in the community.
I always say we need to be good neighbors in a natural way. But you have to have time to be available. If one is always at the church, then people know not to even try to interact.
In my neighborhood, there were several leaders’ families. Not one of them were neighborly at all. It actually made our being friends with others difficult when they found out we went to the same church. They respected us when they found out we left. (They didn’t know we got thrown out.)
JadedOne wrote:
Something …. Like … A public apology. But not quite. Not quite an apology, and not public. Whatever you do, don’t read the not-quite-apology here: http://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/20gg40/mark_driscoll_addresses_mars_hill_church/
Because the not-quite-apology is proprietary, confidential, privileged information intended for a limited audience.
JadedOne wrote:
Good question.
Why the cover-up, if Dave did indeed remove it?
Was he threatened?
Was he just still trying to sit on the fence?
How about everyone here go to Dave’s website and ask him why?
http://davekraft.squarespace.com/posts/2014/3/8/do-you-swear-to-tell-the-truth-the-whole-truth-and-nothing-b.html
Anon wrote:
Just did. We’ll see if he even posts it.
Part 5 of 3
Pondering @ Val and @ Katie‘s comments on churches as insular communities…
I’ve previously mentioned our association with Christians Against Poverty. CAP regularly see their clients (the people they help out of unmanageable debt) become Christians. This is in large part because their clients encounter non-judgemental acceptance, love and friendship through their CAP reps; not to mention a God who actually does Useful Stuff in answer to prayer. In fact, historically, a majority of people who become Christians (at least in the UK) do so because they find friendship in Christian circles.
Moreover, CAP is a charity based in Yorkshire but works all over the country, so it depends on good working relationships with local church congregations. This setup invariably involves more than one congregation working together, as well as with CAP. So immediately, you have groups of Christians who have learned to get along with different groups, who are reaching out from their own circles, and do not have their heads wedged up their own backsides (“rear ends” in the US).
What is happening with people who leave the insular HUB’s * whereof Katie and Val spake, is the reverse process. They are trapped in false religion, but then find love and acceptance out in the secular community that they looked for in the “church” but never found.
* HUB: I propose this as a new acronym for a cultic, personality-led church group that has no meaningful relationship with any other church groups locally – as distinct from a remotely distributed network of congregations who are hundreds of miles away but who don’t challenge them doctrinally. HUB stands for “Head Up its Backside group”.
Thing is, I believe I can lay claim to initiating both the code-name “Park Fiscal” and the affectionate collective nickname “Deebs”, both of which seem to have become reasonably well embedded here.
I’m on a the hat-trick…
@ Nick Bulbeck:
and then you have HUBs within HUBs . . .
rebeccalynn wrote:
I can relate. My experience wasn’t with MH, but it had the same isolating effect on me. I just recently drove myself to the big city to meet a friend at the airport. It was terrifying and exhilarating all at the same time.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Where is your story? And your daughters and son and husbands? I’ve missed it somehow except for the few things I’ve seen you share recently. Unless you have shared under another name perhaps?
I live to see the wounded healed and the prisoner set free.
My belief is that the God’s house should be a house of prayer and healing and deliverance. But thieves have come in and stolen peoples voices and understanding of God. They have made God’s house a place of brokenness, shaming, and spiritual death.
I praise and thank God for your victories because it is a testimony to God’s Love, Goodness, and Faithfulness. And your victories are a testimony to the human spirit reaching out and finding God and triumphing in His grace.
@ Mara:
Mara, RebeccaLynn’s story is here at TWW, it was posted a couple of months ago? (trying to remember).
I am so thankful for this site as it has helped me to not feel alone in regards to seeing abuse within churches. Most everyone knows of Phelps “church”, but there are so many others under the radar leaving victims under the bus that never are heard of. It’s hard to heal from these experiences and not want to leave the gospel you may feel is true in your heart. Reconciling the two can be a challenge.
JadedOne wrote:
It is a challenge. I would never have thought that my faith would ever feel shaky, but it did. How could I question that God who definitely changed my life from darkness to Light in an “Apostle Paul experience?” I knew that I knew that I knew that God invaded my heart! Yet, decades later, I questioned Him just like the Israelites did in the desert after the miraculous exit from Egypt, and in-spite of the daily provisions and guidance from God.
But God can handle it. In hindsight from where I am now, He never lets go. He understands. He weeps at the injustices, the evil, the simple lack of kindness, and the ignorance. He gets it more than I do.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
CONGRATULATIONS! WAY TO GO!
Bridget wrote:
So true!
We are more diligent now to not have all our eggs in one basket. We keep up old friendships outside of our church, Christian and non-Christian alike, mingling with those who have differing theology, cultures, and general points of view. It keeps us a little more aware of the developing insular language, thoughts, and actions at church.
JadedOne wrote:
Thanks, JadedOne. It’s sort of coming back to me now. I must have read it if it was here AND concerned Driscoll. Darn this getting old garbage. Anyone remember the title of it so I can review?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick, I really like this ministry approach you describe! It’s very winsome.
As one who lives in an area hard hit by the economic downturn, we saw loads of people lose their jobs, their homes, and more. We, too, were finally hit. Because we were on the tail end of it, many had already learned to be compassionate and nonjudgmental; but we still ran into some unpleasant judgement, people feeling superior to us since it did not happen to them. It’s a false sense of security.
Compassionate help for the poor is precious. Issues that lead one into poverty vary greatly, but the humiliation is the same. And no one is motivated by being shamed. I’ve given up defending myself to those who don’t understand.
God bless your ministry, Nick! When we get to Europe, we’ll have to visit your group!
@ Mara:
My story was told in several parts on this blog several months ago. I was a member of the now closed Countryside Christian Church. We were taken over by Acts 29 and a Pastor named Kevin Galloway. Our large church was thriving until he took over. Many people thrown under the bus quietly. I just refused to go quietly so my husband children and I were walked out by an off duty police officer. The oldest child has never been back to church and is now a professing atheist. My son is a special child with a low IQ who still struggles with what happened. And my youngest has developed a very thick skin made to protect herself from everyone in church. While she goes she does not plug in much. She stays back still. I do understand. I stopped driving and going out for years. I only left to shop for groceries, and when I ran into people they turned their backs to me so I would go home and hide even harder. My husband has spent a long time being the driver and caretaker while I fell apart, I am so grateful for him. He stood with me while they wrote letters tearing us both apart. As I have decided to live again things are looking up for both of us, when people shun us we shake our heads and move on. I have an ebay business to run and new friends amongst the ladies of my church. I have watched my incredibly humble pastor lead and feel safe under him. I have begun to hope again, and that is a heady thing.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Ah yes. I do remember that. I just made the mistake of thinking, since we were talking about Driscoll here, that your story was a little closer to Seattle.
Either way, Driscoll’s influence, near and far, is just plain bad.
rebeccalynn wrote:
Good. Shake the dust and ashes off your feet and live a truly abundant life.
Katie wrote:
Many times the misunderstandings are perpetrated from the pulpit. The last church I attended (I no longer attend church–but I have NOT renounced my faith in Jesus, I’m taking a sabbatical from corporate Sabbath) featured a pastor who I actually heard quoting Psalm 37:25 (“I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread.”) in a corporate prayer in which he stated “We know Lord that the poor are not your children, because, as King David said…[insert Psalm 37:25].” I still cannot believe I didn’t leap up in the middle of Sunday service and shout him down. I heard it, but couldn’t make myself believe I’d heard it.
elastigirl wrote:
This comment has made me laugh every few minutes for the last 24 hours. Genius.
Though surely you mean Nubble Icckk?
LawProf wrote:
That’s what happens. It’s like seeing a giraffe in your living room. Because it doesn’t belong there you can’t understand what you are seeing. The better part of wisdom is what holds us back from making loud reactive responses until we’ve processed and gathered enough info to be sure of what we speak.
@ JeffT:
I was thinking some PR guy told him to use the Bunker strategy also. OK, my thoughts aren’t so far-fetched.
Val
Katie wrote:
I’ve seen that as well. Blame the victim for being unemployed. It’s so sad how so many people blame victims for their circumstances as a way to deny it could happen to them.
@ zooey111:
What I read was that confession started as a concession. It was back in the persecution of Christians in Ancient Rome. When a Christian denied their faith, and survived a persecution, arrest, etc. then went to confess their sin of denial, it split the believers. Since to deny Christ meant he would deny you, some Christians felt a denier needed to be ex-communicated for their denial. Others supported this. This began private confession, where a person could go to their bishop and confess the sin of denial privately, and be absolved, without the whole church knowing who was a denier.
Sort of makes sense since it would be pretty weak of a person to deny Christ, when many others were being thrown to the lions for their faith. It is around this time that elders become almost exclusively men, because the role of elders in those days was to stay behind in a raid and get arrested, in order to allow the congregants to escape. Rome was getting a lot of backlash over killing so many young women (I mean they didn’t look like a massive threat to the mighty Roman Empire, and the area attendees were having trouble booing instead of sympathizing with a beautiful young woman), so they began only persecuting the men. In people’s minds, only men, therefore, were elders. I read once long, long, ago, but have never found it confirmed again, that the church struck a deal with the Roman Centurion that they would only appoint male elders for a bit of a break in persecution, that, however, sounds a lot like denial of Christ, so I don’t know if it is actually valid, but the switching of elders to only men rose from the mass persecution against Christians and the squeamishness of seeing so many young, beautiful maidens dying for Christ, well, specifically for refusing to marry whom their fathers had selected, but that was for a life with Christ.
@ Beakerj:
I’m glad SOMEBODY noticed! I don’t think “nick” knows we’re on to him.
JeffT wrote:
I think seeing so many needs in front of a person is frustrating; and sometimes blaming the victim for their circumstances is a way to alleviate guilt (real or false) for not helping out.
Mara wrote:
My understanding is that Fiscoll studied the Calvary Chapel game plan, since so many of the CC pastors have mega churches and got really rich without those pesky accountability factors. Since Fiscal changed his original organizational structure to look more like CC’s, it rings true. So remember that Calvary Chapel (and all it’s corruption and unhealthy church culture) has influenced Fiscal and ACTS 29.
It’s just systemic.
___
“Capitol ‘Righteous’ Thunder Claps, Com’in Perhaps?”
MerkD has declared, “No Joy” ?
huh?
The dayz of da Marzhil righteous religious bully’in are over?
What?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwtbC1VCNMk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0xQu5n4sYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUa0MJZDFcc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L51KjeSKMtY
We stand a little stronger, N’ a little taller; ‘church’ ain’t for da bully’s ta get da best of us…but for us ta learn ta be like Jesus!
Whew!
hahahahahaha
Safe. (grin) Way ta go Jesus!
(bump)
His eyes R ever on da sparrow.
ATB
Sopy
—
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
I can so relate to both of you and your experiences of isolation. My situation is slightly different, but I also became withdrawn and isolated after being spiritually squashed by religious leaders. Only as I’m coming out of it, do I see how bad I was – never opening the curtains, only leaving the house once a week, etc.
A couple of months ago, I started writing a “Daily New” journal. My goal is to do something for the first time, or go someplace I’ve never been before, or try a food I’ve never eaten before, etc., and then write about my new experience each day. I’ve realized that even if I fail at what I’m trying to do, I’ve still succeeded by trying. And I’m meeting new people along the way. It is both scary and exciting at the same time. But mostly, I feel like I’m starting to live again. And I’m thankful.
Daisy wrote:
Part of these church’s m.o. is to capitalize on the partnerships they make (which is why they have so few). When the partnerships cease to benefit the church (aka they’d rather spend the money on a “better investment” that yields greater returns to the church) they have no problem cutting the relationship. What is always fascinating to me is how these scenarios are public knowledge yet the public does not discern the issue.
LawProf wrote:
I wonder whether he ever quoted from Ezekiel 16 in a corporate prayer:
Once the poor, the disadvantaged, the marginalised and the oppressed no longer matter, then true depravity (as opposed to TULIP “depravity”) is not far behind.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Or, as I suppose the Cals would have to say, they are already utterly depraved.
@ Nancy:
Sorry, instead of “or” I should have said “and.” Both kinds of depravity.
@ Darcyjo:
I’m late to the game, but the Gospel Coalition published a pretty pointed article about Mark on its blog a few weeks ago. Hope I got the link to work.
@ Wendy Alsup:
This is nice to see even though I don’t agree with a lot, especially his walking on eggshells not to offend, dance.*
It’s still nice to see.
Wish that others would rise up and do something similar, even if they also do the tip toe through the tulips dance of trying not to bruise his monster ego.
(*Sorry. It still bothers me that Driscoll gets to offend, offend, offend, while others have to kowtow in order to be considered not-a-hater and to expect to ever be heard, and even then act like if Driscoll does listen, Driscoll is doing the kowtower such a huge favor. Driscoll dished it out. He never should have if he couldn’t take it. He obviously can’t take it. Nor do expect him to very soon. [he can surprise me and make me wrong any time he wants to.] Still, thanks Wendy. for the link.)
@ Wendy Alsup:
While I do appreciate your pointing out that article on The Gospel Coalition website, it's certainly worth noting that it was published three months ago.
So much has already happened in 2014 regarding Mark Driscoll. Why the all the silence from that corner of Christendom?
Finally, why did Jared Wilson shut down comments on that post?
Driscoll has submitted his damage-control statement. He is going on vacation (taking a sabbatical from social media). No effort made to bind up the wounds of the hurt and suffereing. No restorration of or sorrow for those he has thrown under the bus.
His fans are declaring that he has “repented” (for the umpteenth time).
“This is old news. Let’s move on…”
Until the next scandal makes the news.
Deb wrote:
Wow, Deb. You’re right. Somehow I missed that.
Jared Wilson: “Mark, you don’t owe me anything; you’ve already given me so much. I love you. And I am willing to lose friends and favor in posting this publicly. But I think it’s worth it, because I think you’re worth it and the integrity of gospel ministry is worth it.”
I wish that Driscoll actually appreciated friends like this and would respond accordingly. As far as i can tell, he does not deserve the loyalty that so many give him. He doesn’t deserve it because of all the betrayal and abuse he’s handed out.
TedS. wrote:
We are going to post James Duncan’s fascinating post tomorrow along with some pointed commentary. Driscoll, in my opinion, is playing another game and that post will show why.
Deb wrote:
I think it is because Wilson might have thought that the commenters would pile it on and he didn’t want it. However, Wilson needs to understand that the number of issues surrounding this guy means that Driscoll deserves the piling on.
Mara wrote:
This sort of loyalty is toxic loyalty.
elastigirl wrote:
Oh, I have my eye out for “nick”.
Hold on..2 women…1 cause…’The Bulbeck Watch’…it feels like it’s meant to be somehow 🙂
Kristin wrote:
Keep it around to remind that pastors can be hurtful. Even the ones who theology John Piper looooooves.
Let this be a reminder to you that these supposed leaders will do anything to back up any sort of individual, especially if they have big churches, so long as they kow tow to gospel© as they define it.
Beakerj wrote:
THE FOOLS! Little do they suspect…
I will RULE their WORLD!!!!
BUWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ Nice Kekbulb:
Mr. Nice
Can I sit at your right hand?
That’s weird – Kekbulb’s avatar looks like mine…
dee wrote:
Ever heard the advice to treat someone poorly and it'll make them try all the harder to please you? Seems Fiscal found it works for him.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
It would indeed be “as opposed to TULIP depravity” in that particular case, because the pastor was a rock-ribbed Arminian. Depraved is depraved–this guy was just a less competent Driscollesque sadist. The reason I say less competent is because he couldn’t manage to hold more than about 35 or 40 people in services, people kept cycling out because the guy just couldn’t find a way to appeal to people. At least Driscoll’s schtick is attractive to a certain type of neanderthal.
I’m behind on reading posts and comments, so perhaps someone has already posted this, but if not here is Chris Rosebrough’s interview with Janet Mefford from a few days ago on the Driscoll controversy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k83yNhMJdQ&feature=share
M. Joy wrote:
Wow that interview is great stuff, refreshing to hear Christian media people tell it straight and strong without all the mealy-mouthed tripe (“Well, you never know, it really could be God leadin
M. Joy wrote:
Wow that interview is great stuff! Refreshing to hear Christian media tell it straight and strong without all the mealy-mouthed tripe (“Well, you never know…it really could be God leading Mark to do these things…we really don’t have the right to judge a brother…’All things work together for good’…Mark’s just a f
LawProf wrote:
[inadvertently truncated previous post]
…flawed man, like Samson, don’t throw baby out with bathwater…”, etc. etc. ad nauseum, ad infinitum.) Thank God for people less invested in their career progression than in telling the truth.
Dee & Deb,
The fix is in.
The gospel whitewashing machine is in full spin cycle:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/rayortlund/2014/03/17/what-just-happened-2/?comments#comments
TedS. wrote:
Absolutely pathetic.
TedS. wrote:
Like I’ve said before, so many of these guys are out-and-out cowards. Makes a post calling Driscoll’s non-apology apology ‘owning up’ to pacify the neo-Cal fanboys, calling critics “haters”, turns off comments because he won’t defend himself, then runs away.
JeffT wrote:
@ LawProf:
Notice: No comments allowed. Why? he knows. Watch for my post in about one hour and lets see how truthful Driscoll really is.
@ M. Joy:
This was a GREAT interview.
And then I see TGC link…. oy! So frustrating!
TedS. wrote:
All I hear is The Gospel Coalition saying is, “Ka-Ching $$$.” Save the business.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I’d be scared if I was you, his Interpol record said he was a master of disguise. Also his victims just disa
__
According to the scriptures, any one in the office of elder whose character and reputation are not above reproach, or whose authority is undermined by ‘a recurring pattern’ of sinful behavior in their life, ought to be removed from office.
—
A New Problem
I do not how he slipped through. I have been at the doctors today with my mother’s husband. He is having a difficult time.Consequently, the old brain is not sharp. He is gone.
Two comments removed by editor.
I am not exactly sure what we are calling out Mark Driscoll about in this blog? Is it that he wrote a book that has sex and bible verses at the same time? Is it that he might be, possibly making too much money as a pastor? Or is it that he and his church leaders decided to buy their way into the NYT best sellers list in order to sell more books? I haven’t seen a shred of solid evidence against him in these arguments against him yet. He has definitely done some dumb stuff in his years, but from what I have heard about his church is that they love and worship Jesus. They have a weird culture there in Seattle(I’ve been a few times), but I haven’t seen him or Mars Hill do anything wrong that they have not quickly repented of and apologized for and that is what the bible demands. Right? I think the best thing for you to do is go to Pastor Mark or one of his current leaders and calmly talk to them face to face before anymore blogging goes on. Same goes for me. I will be open to giving my number out if you want to call
me about what I’ve said. Just message me back and I’ll give it to you. @ Mara:
@ Johnny:
I’m just commenting here to hold this place and draw attention to your comment Johnny.
With all this going on about SGM and C. J., Driscoll has become old news. I’ll bet he’s happy about that. I’m sure he’s tired of being a lightening rod. He needs a break and C. J., his good buddy and mentor, has been kind enough to provide one for him.
Anyone else what to address Johnny’s claim that there isn’t a shred of solid evidence against Driscoll? Johnny is wrong, of course. But he could probably get away with it right now, here, because of of all that is going on elsewhere.
@ Johnny:
I’m back.
I’m trying not to roll my eyes at the suggestion of going to talk to Mark Driscoll. I’d never get passed the body guards and (very, very, very) well paid team of lawyers. Driscoll is not interested in anything I have to say.
As far as any proof of wrongdoing. There is plenty. You simply don’t want to see it, preferring to live in your deep denial. I’m not going to rehash what has been well documented.
Here is one place to go is you want balanced, objective coverage of what went on:
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/
Go take you objections there.
I have more links but will make a new comment for them.
Johnny wrote:
Frankly I am swamped on the SGM thing for the moment. However, this blog, Wenatchee the Hatchett and Warren Throckmorton have down a yeoman’s job in outlining the issues surrounding Driscoll.
I do not intend to do the heavy lifting for you. Google his name on any of the three sites and get reading. One thing is for certain, you will see original writing at all three site with not a hint of plagiarism. Hint, hint.
@ Johnny:
Here’s another site that documents well the sins of Driscoll:
http://joyfulexiles.com/
His sins are serious enough to disqualify him from leadership, that is, if people actually cared what the Bible has to say concerning this topic.
Driscoll threw these people under the bus. And bragged about it. Claiming that these things are either not that bad or never exist means you, again, are in deep denial, or that you know all this but are going to go ahead and lie along with Driscoll and his supporters.
It’s your choice, you can lie and/or stay in your denial. OR you can open your eyes and seek the truth. I really don’t care what you do at this point.
Dee has dropped in and mentioned Warren Throckmorton. His was the next blog that I was going to link. I think I still will so that you will have absolutely no excuse for your ignorance concerning Driscoll disqualifying himself as a leader:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/
Perhaps you aren’t a Driscoll fan at all. Perhaps you are really a C.J. fan and this is you limited attempt to try to draw fire away from him and back onto Driscoll (M.D. is such an easy target, after all.)
I’m pretty sure nothing you can do will draw fire away from C.J. Sure, Driscoll has done wrong and has disqualified himself from leadership many times over. But from the looks of things now, he’s small beans compared to his friend and mentor, C.J.