Mark Driscoll and His Mars Hill “Advisory” Board: Time to Step Down

"The way to work with a bully is to take the ball and go home. First time, every time. When there's no ball, there's no game. Bullies hate that. So they'll either behave so they can play with you or they'll go bully someone else."  Seth Godin link

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/bullies.htmlMars Hill 

TWW has been blogging for about 5 years. In that time, we have called for two resignations. The first was for the resignation of Paige Patterson who bragged about sending an abused wife back into the home to get abused again. When the inevitable happened, Patterson said her two black eyes were worth it because her husband finally came to church. Of course, the guy who is happy about black eyes on abused women still reigns at SWBTS.

The second one occurred in  Mark Driscoll Should Step Down and Acts 29 Should Step Away. Please refer to the post for a litany of issues, not the least of which were his ignorant statements about British Christians. In this particular instance, Driscoll did step down from Acts 29. 

However, Driscoll's star continued to rise and John Piper jumped on the Driscoll bandwagon, expressing his devoted love for Driscoll's theology. And when Piper speaks, well, it is ex cathedra and all the "gospel" boys proclaimed it settled. We could not understand this. Driscoll's take on Esther was beyond bizarre with Driscoll quoting his 14 year old daughter as evidence that his interpretation was correct. 

The icing on the cake were the testimonies of Bent Meyer and Paul Petry, former Mars Hill elders, about the despicable machinations that surrounded their firings. This blog has documented antic after antic of the boy-child known as Mark Driscoll. Each time we have done so, we remain perplexed by the generalized support of this man. A line was crossed when his buddies and business associates attacked Janet Mefferd. Janet's sin was to reveal the "citation" problems surrounding Driscoll's books when she interviewed him on the air. Janet did not realize that you never, ever, ever confront one of these stars. Who became the bad guy? Janet Mefferd! The gospel boys rose to Driscoll's defense with Justin Taylor calling for an "author" boycott of Mefferd's show! (If a person plagiarizes, is he still the author or is the guy who wrote the original words the author?)

Screen Shot 2013-11-25 at 2.43.35 PMOk-So the two of us are "just women" without the obvious authority and good sense displayed by Piper and Taylor. But the two of us have spent hours discussing what appeared to be evident problems in Driscoll's ministry. Why didn't the "real leaders" see this?

Its funny. It took cheating on the New York Times bestseller list to begin to shake these guys out of their stupor. It wasn't Driscoll's long-standing history of outright foolishness. It was the buying of notoriety that ticked them off. Why is that? And why haven't they apologized? I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

So, to recap what is going on here, we are providing a number of links to help you understand the back story. Frankly, we are having a tought time staying on top of hour by hour revelations.There will be more coming shortly. Remember, this story is less than a week old. The heroes are Warren Cole Smith of World Magazine, Dr Warren Throckmorton of Patheos, Dr James Duncan of Pajama Pages and Wenatchee the Hatchett.

The big reveal by Warren Cole Smith

On March 5, Warren Cole Smith of World Magazine reveals that Mars Hill entered into a contract with ResultSource Inc to buy Mark Driscoll a Number One spot on the New York Times bestseller list for his controversial book, Real Marriage. This is a book which has been alleged to have citation errors.(Well, it seems to be more than alleged but the lawyers are hovering…)

A gag order

At the same time, Warren Cole Smith indicates that there is a gag order on all employees at Mars Hill Church.

Who is ResultSource Inc?

Dr Warren Throckmorton outlines how ResultSource Inc (RSI) accomplishes their goal of providing clients a spot of the NY Times bestseller list. He provides readers with the alleged actual contract. 

The Mars Hill Accountability Board responds to the controversy.

Here is a list of these people who are supposed to hold Driscoll and the church "accountable." 

  • Paul Tripp, 
  • John Phelps, 
  • Michael Van Skaik, 
  • James MacDonald, 
  • Larry Osborne, 
  • Mark Driscoll, 
  • Dave Bruskas,
  • Sutton Turner.

Fascinating. Three of the members are the pastors themselves!!! I bet they won't vote down their salaries….Add James MacDonald, who is fielding his own controversy over serious debt problems and turmoil amongst his elders, and you have a serious problem of objective accountability. This is par for the course these days in many of the mega churches as well as authoritarian churches. Plurality of elders has come to mean "those dudes who agree with me and my large salary."

The inevitable "scrubbing" of the website biography of Driscoll begins.

Suddenly, the NY Times brags seem a little awkward.

Former Mars Hill pastor, David Kraft tells his story (and it ain't pretty) and former leader Jeff Bettger backs him up link.

He presents an insider's look at the turmoil and pain at Mars Hill. We also learn that there are a number of former pastors and leaders who are coming forward to tell their stories. There should be some interesting stories in the days ahead.

The Mars Hill Non-Disclosure Agreement link.

Did you know that spouses also were barred from ever saying anything negative about the church?

Amended bylaws restated by Mars Hill link

Don't worry, Mark is still in charge.

Could Mars Hill's actions with ResultSource Inc be considered illegal? Ever hear of inurement?

Well, quite possibly… There is no question that this whole arrangement is shady at best. But, Dr Duncan outlines the possible legal probabilities in this post.

The IRS defines inurement as

“any unjust enrichment” of an individual or corporation out of the earnings of a tax-exempt organization. Remember that all of the activities of the organization must be devoted “exclusively” to its mission. If the efforts aren’t exclusive, the tax exemption can be revoked.

An organization is not operated exclusively for one or more exempt purposes if its net earnings inure in whole or in part to the benefit of private individuals.

Mars Hill doesn’t need all of its income to go to Mark Driscoll, so just a little bit of “unjust enrichment” is enough to violate the exclusivity rule.

Second, the whole point of the campaign was to generate income. As Throckmorton points out, just two days ago Mars Hill were describing the campaign as an “investment.” The placement on the NYT list generated its own sales from an increase in buzz and reputation, from which Driscoll and his publishers profited. As we see in so many celebrity pastors’ biographies, they market themselves as NYT best sellers to drive up their value on the speaking circuit.

In that post, Dr Duncan reviews the infamous Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker case and how it relates to Driscoll.

While on the topic of analogous cases, the IRS document discusses the case of Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, who used donations to their ministry to grow fabulously wealthy. Their board was singled out for particular criticism:

Although PTL had a Board of 6 or 7 persons, some Board members were insiders. The unrelated Board members received contributions for their own ministries for their service on the Board. While nominally independent, the Board functioned as a rubber stamp, approving without discussion unspecified amounts of “bonuses” for the Bakkers which amounted to millions of dollars…. In addition to their “bonuses,” the Bakkers drained millions of dollars from their ministry through excessive salaries, expenses, and fringe benefit payments. [Emphasis added]

Wenatchee the Hatchet has documented the cozy relationship between Driscoll and his board, but the Board of Advisers and Accountability's’s statement last night looks familiar:

The BOAA stands unreservedly behind Pastors Mark Driscoll, Sutton Turner and Dave Bruskas as the Executive Elders of Mars Hill Church. We deeply appreciate their endurance through false accusation, their submission to authority, and their humility where regrettable decisions from the past have come to light. [Emphasis added]

After the recent scandals involving plagiarism and deceptive marketing, a board that unreservedly endorses the people it’s supposed to be overseeing can be of little more value than a rubber stamp.

Wenatchee the Hatchet looks at the non-disclosure agreement in context. 

Then Wenatchee the Hatchet weighs in. Wenatchee is the indisputable expert on all things Mars Hill and has been a thorn in their side for years. He never, ever lets them get away with scrubbing history or websites. He keeps track of it all. Wenatchee published a most important piece which gives an incredible insight into the non-disclosure agreement . 

In that post Warren Throckmorton publishes MH non-disclosure agreement, revisiting Sutton Turner's "How to Leave Well", a question gets raised. Could severance benefits, inncluding health care, be contingent on keeping your mouth shut? Read the article and draw your own conclusion.

From the Executive Elders:

Mars Hill, we are also very sad to see our good friend Tim move on from Mars Hill. It is not our desire for Tim to leave, as we love the Gaydos family very much, and we believe Tim is well suited for this job. We would prefer that Tim remain as the Lead Pastor of Mars Hill Downtown Seattle indefinitely, especially in light of the recent relocation to the heart of downtown, the growing influence of the church, and our big Easter celebration broadcasting live from the Downtown church in just a few weeks.
However, Tim believes it is time for him to move onto something else. While Tim offered to stay on staff until a replacement is found, the executive elders met with Tim and made the decision that it would be in the best interest of the church for his resignation to take effect immediately, and the Downtown Seattle elders concurred with the decision. We love him and his family and we don’t want them to suffer through this transition, so we have offered him 3 months of severance, and will continue to pay for his medical benefits through the birth of their new baby. [emphasis added]

If the wording in the separation and release agreement Firstenberg provided to Warren Throckmorton is a typical example then making a severance payment/medical coverage package conditional on non-disclosure could mean that the medical coverage of a wife, a child, or even a not-yet-born baby might be a condition that would have to be weighed against a willingness to divulge information at some point in the future.  Now whether or not Gaydos was offered, let alone signed, a separation and release agreement can only be verified by others.  There's plenty of questions about how enforceable any of the claims in the separation and release agreement are.

Finally, it does appear that Mars Hill admits to its share of "acrimonious" leave-taking by staff and it appears to us that Driscoll and his buddies didn't give a damn…

Remember those disgusting statements about piles of bodies under the bus?

Reading the NDA, it appears to me that MHC leaders hope to use fear of legal action and loss of severance pay to keep former staff quiet. Some who have been watching the Mars Hill saga unfold have asked me privately why few have been aware of the incredible tensions, discord and significant staff turnover at MHC. Furthermore, I have been amazed at how fearful staffers have been to discuss their experiences. I think both of these observations relate to the fear that the massive engine that MHC is will come down on individuals who have relatively few resources to defend themselves.

According to the statement from the Board of Advisors and Accountability, numerous staff transitions have been acrimonious and they have made changes to “detrimental management patterns.” According to Firstenberg, no sustained effort has been made to address his concerns. And according to Dave Kraft, the statement involving him is inaccurate and ignores the totality of his claims and concerns. The BOAA statement also defends the use of the non-disclosure agreement which really causes me to wonder if the “detrimental management patterns” have truly been addressed.

I asked Firstenberg for his reactions to the BOAA statement. He began by questioning whether or not Mark Driscoll and other executive elders have really faced the implications of the massive staff discord and turnover over the last 2-3 years. Firstenberg: “How have they “owned” their part?” According to Firstenberg, “There has been no response or repentance from those leaders, in fact no response at all from this accountability group to the very elders that they have sinned against. How is that owning their part?”

Real Marriage and Grace Driscoll

We started this post off by discussing  Paige Patterson's unfortunate response to domestic violence. We want to end it by stating our concern about Grace Driscoll and the book Real Marriage. There are a number of observers who found Mark's depiction of Grace disturbing. In our opinion, he made a strong case that Grace was to blame for the lack of affection in their marriage. Mark has a penchant for blaming everyone but himself. We believe that this is the real tragedy of this book. Mark Driscoll showed an example of how NOT to act like a man and all of his fans applauded. 

Screen Shot 2014-03-10 at 5.24.57 PM

 

So the ladies of TWW have decided to say that it is time for Mark Driscoll and his sorry excuse for an advisory board to step away from their positions and do some soul searching. We also believe that there are a number of Driscoll fanboys who need to reevaluate if this is how they define a "successful" gospel living church. There are some people who also owe Janet Mefferd an apology as well but we won't hold our breath. This is not a gang that believes in doing humility, merely writing about it and hoping it gets endorsed by another high-rolling, aging, hipster pastor. 

Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 35:1-36:32 1 Timothy 5:1-25 Psalm 89:14-37 Proverbs 25:25-27

Comments

Mark Driscoll and His Mars Hill “Advisory” Board: Time to Step Down — 203 Comments

  1. BOYCHILD??? 😯 Driscoll is a man still going through puberty for the last 30 years!!! :-p

  2. Naaaaaaaaza……humility for this crowd means supporting Der Humble One after blackmail and writjng a book on Humility. Maybe Mark Driscoll can write a book on Humility!!

  3. Driscoll’s doing what all these greedy, narcissistic ‘Christian’ preachers do when found out – rather than defend his outrageous actions, he runs and hides (perhaps they know they are indefensible?). And, like the others, he’ll come back and either go into full on attack mode claiming his critics are not really after him but they’re after Jesus and he’s proud to be a martyr for the church. Or, he’ll stand up and offer some lame non-apologetic apology, shed a few fake tears and, like CJ, claim to be humbled, and go on as before. Either way, he will never repent – guys like him never do, but he’ll make a damm good show of looking like it, because the only that in the world that matters to him is him.

  4. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    @ Eagle:

    Nah…wait for it…the next book will be on persecution for the cause….

    Repentance and Reconciliation: Now with 100% Less Apologies and Amends. Because forgiveness is a right, not a gift.

  5. How many disgruntled former pastors and elders does it take for people to finally get that something is WRONG at Mars Hill?? Is there a running list somewhere? I didn’t realize Dave Kraft has now been added to the casualty list.

  6. Has anyone taken on the task of doing a serious and thorough background check on Mark Driscoll? What this situation needs is a talented P.I. or Investigative Journalist. There’s something there that is fueling this entire phenomenon. Until people find out the cause, the focus on the effect is like watching a never ending trainwreck.

  7. The stream of what and who that comes out of Mars Hill… I am amazed at the constant supply of grotesque fascination. Politics and the entertainment industry are nothing compared to this.

    Aside from the man fail at the helm, the names of so many Mars Hill men, past and present, are so deeply associated with arrogance, moral corruption, and the word “jerk”. Even if they wanted to come clean and reinvent their reputation, it seems they were in a straightjacket of fear of reprisals. Perhaps this will be a new day for them.

  8. there are a bunch us “gospel boys” reformed type people that have been vocal about Driscoll for years….Piper too. sadly, we our time is consumed with pastoring are churches (like I once did) or working in a secular job to put food on the table (like I am now) which keeps us from being more public in our criticism. And for the record ladies, I disagree with some of your theological positions, but I commend you for work here. Keep it up! 🙂 if I ever find the time to engage you on some of issues you raise here, I hope you will welcome the conversation. 🙂

  9. Do you go to Mars Hill Church? Did’nt think so…keep your nose out of our business. ALL the money went to the church, Pastor Mark is a humble, loving leader that would never deceive us or mislead us. We are fine, attendance was up yesterday, worship was rocking, and Jesus is Lord.
    Pastor Mark will get a standing O this weekend and we will move forward with the mission of Jesus and you will be sitting in Raleigh with your cheetos and yoo hoos.

    Get a life sister

  10. PP wrote:

    “gospel boys” reformed type people that have been vocal about Driscoll for years

    You are not a gospel boy if that is true.

  11. @ PP:

    “sadly, our time is consumed with pastoring are churches (like I once did) or working in a secular job to put food on the table (like I am now) which keeps us from being more public in our criticism”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Hi, PP.

    I appreciate the comment. But just so you know, everyone who has been public in their criticism is consumed with their job to put food on the table, whatever job it might be. They have deemed it important enough that they have made time for it. If you and your gospel boys have influence, perhaps this day could have come sooner had you made the time for it as well.

  12. Shed, I think you have mistaken “humble” for “cowardly”. Publically shaming his wife in no way reflects the love of God. Making fun of men who aren’t as “manly” as him is nowhere in the Bible. I don’t know what your beef with N.C. is, unless it is sour grapes not getting into Duke, UNC or Davidson. I guess our Cheetos, YooHoos, and don’t forget pig’s feet must be powerful brain food for us to have such good universities. (Oh and Elon, N.C. State, Appalachian etc—–). Dee and Deb, thank you for the important work you do!

  13. dee wrote:

    @ Eagle:
    Never forget that Mahaney was assigned to mentor him.

    Indeed!  Let's not forget that both Mahaney and Piper mentored Driscoll. Tim Challies weighed in on it.

    March 06, 2008

    Last Sunday, at Mars Hill Church, Mark Driscoll preached a sermon on the Regulative Principle. For a few minutes, just at the end of the sermon, he discussed some “behind-the-scenes” time he has spent with both C.J. Mahaney and John Piper. In this brief audio excerpt, posted below, he explains to his congregation some of the ways he has failed to serve them and how he hopes to grow in and by God’s grace. This is in light of some private brotherly correction and feedback he received from John Piper and C.J. Mahaney at the recent Resurgence conference.

    When I hear things like this, I am filled with gratitude for this incredible, unique body called the church. I love to see Christians serving, challenging, exhorting and blessing other Christians in this way. I thank God for Piper and Mahaney and their ministry to Mark Driscoll and, through him, to the church at large.

    http://www.challies.com/sites/all/files/legacy/media/driscoll.mp3  (Listen at the 7-1/2 minute mark…)

    That was about six months before TWW launched into the blogosphere (when Dee and I didn't have a clue about what was going on in the Neo-Cal movement).  Back then Dee and I were members of different Southern Baptist churches, and unbeknownst to us our pastors were caught up in this movement. 

    Much has changed in the five years that have transpired.

  14. Shed Larringer wrote:

    Do you go to Mars Hill Church? Did’nt think so…keep your nose out of our business.

    What the heck?
    Are you another parody? Or are you for real?

    Well, in case you are for real then let me tell you something.
    I’ll leave Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill alone when Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill stops peddling their bad doctrine and wrong teachings in college and universities and stop trying to shove their books and sermons down the throats of Christians in the U.S. and abroad.

    In other words. I’ll leave you all alone when you leave me alone. That’s right. When you leave the NYT best-sellers list alone, Janet Mefferd alone, colleges and universities alone, Christian Book sellers alone, then I’ll leave you alone.

    Until then, shut up. When Mark Driscoll makes his personal life my business and drags his wife out and put her and her ‘sins’ on public display, nobody has the right to tell me to mind my own business. I wasn’t the one who made Driscoll’s business my business. He did.

    You totally lost any credibility to ask to be left alone when you, your church, and your pastor started troubling the world with your broken and defective version of doctrine and how to do marriage.

    So tell your pastor to leave ME alone and to stop making The Song of Solomon all about men getting as much pornographic sex out of their wives as they can.
    The day Driscoll decided to use God’s word as a manipulative tool against his wife and all women everywhere is the day he exposed himself to the ridicule that he so much deserves!

    He sowed to the wind with his false teaching.
    Now he is reaping the whirlwind.

  15. I think Mark Driscoll should have stepped down over the following:

    1) telling people publicly that if he’d known his wife Grace had some sort of sexual experience prior to their marriage he would have never married her.

    2) telling people about how unhappy he was when Grace cut her hair from long, luxurious, sexy to a Mom cut just before the birth of their first child.

    I’ve never been to Mars Hill. I SHOULD NOT KNOW THESE THINGS. But I do. For that reason, Mark Driscoll should not be a pastor, because he’ll belittle anyone, even his wife.

  16. If I wasn’t so zonked from work, I’d compare this severance contract that Driscoll and Mars Hill have departing staff members sign to the contracts that Scientology has departing Sea Org members sign. But I’m not going to. Instead, I’ll note that these contracts do not cover observing illegal acts and that it doesn’t surprise me at all to see a high-control organization like Mars Hill in the business of emulating Scientology.

  17. Shed Larringer wrote:

    Pastor Mark will get a standing O this weekend and we will move forward with the mission of Jesus and you will be sitting in Raleigh with your cheetos and yoo hoos.
    Get a life sister

    And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love,
    Yes, they’ll know we are Christians by our love.

  18. @ Mara:

    Are you another parody? Or are you for real?

    If memory serves, these megachurch “trolls” that keep showing up have first names that start with S and last names that start with L. Parodies all I think, by the same person.

  19. JeffT wrote:

    Driscoll’s doing what all these greedy, narcissistic ‘Christian’ preachers do when found out – rather than defend his outrageous actions, he runs and hides (perhaps they know they are indefensible?). And, like the others, he’ll come back and either go into full on attack mode claiming his critics are not really after him but they’re after Jesus and he’s proud to be a martyr for the church. Or, he’ll stand up and offer some lame non-apologetic apology, shed a few fake tears and, like CJ, claim to be humbled, and go on as before. Either way, he will never repent – guys like him never do, but he’ll make a damm good show of looking like it, because the only that in the world that matters to him is him.

    I tend to agree with Jeff here.

  20. Shed Larringer wrote:

    Pastor Mark is a humble, loving leader that would never deceive us or mislead us.

    Let me get this straight … Mark Driscoll would NEVER deceive you or mislead you? NEVER? Seriously?

    So I guess this means Fiscal is above the need for any accountability and he must have been delivered into this world through the second immaculate conception, since he doesn’t have a sin nature. (cough!)

    That’s some serious man-worship. I’d be very scared, scared at how you could have such blind loyalty. It will cost you. Sadly, I know from having dabbled in man worship, myself. It doesn’t end well.

  21. @ Tim:
    I have a feeling that went towards a down payment on his Woodway home, so to define “benefiting” MD could be the issue. I am positive it was rationalized in a way that on paper it doesn’t directly “benefit” him.

  22. Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    because he’ll belittle anyone, even his wife.

    upon the prompting of a polite MDFanBoy, I went to watch one of Driscoll’s infamous teaching on The Songs.

    The thing that bothered me the most was his assumptions concerning certain phrases in The Songs having overly sexual mean or being misapplied beyond reason.
    The second thing that bothered me was this mockery and scorn (overthetop belittling) of all who disagreed with his version.

    And yes, this is reason enough for him to step down.

  23. From James Duncan’s latest post. (thanks Tim)
    http://www.pajamapages.com/see-how-the-result-source-campaign-made-mark-driscoll-a-half-million-dollars/

    “The $210,000 that the church spent had the immediate and direct effect of boosting Mark Driscoll’s earnings by $330,000, with an indirect effect of earning $180,000 more based on the buzz that led to the media interviews, for a total of just over a half million dollars.

    By my calculations, Mark Driscoll used $210,000 of other people’s money to earn $510,000 for himself. That is why the Result Source campaign was initially considered an “investment,” but didn’t became “unwise” until just last week.”

    I have a question for my US friends – are any of you able to file a complaint with the IRS?
    In Canada, if we believe or have evidence a charity may be shady, we have a number we can call. Revenue Canada takes the complaint, and investigates (which is confidential). If the charity licence is revoked, that is published.

  24. It was the buying of notoriety that ticked them off. Why is that?

    Because he thought of it before they did?

  25. Eagle wrote:

    BOYCHILD??? 😯 Driscoll is a man still going through puberty for the last 30 years!!! :-p

    Peter Pan Syndrome a la Michael Jackson.

  26. dee wrote:

    @ Eagle:
    Never forget that Mahaney was assigned to mentor him.

    HUMBLY, of course. (chuckle chuckle)

  27. Kristin wrote:

    I didn’t realize Dave Kraft has now been added to the casualty list.

    Just another body under the bus…

  28. @ Southwestern Discomfort:
    ‘I should not know these things, but I do’

    Yes, gag orders and clauses of silence don’t apply to Mark Driscoll, just to everyone else.

    It’s great, when you legally shut a person up, you can thoroughly revise that person’s Mars Hill history, scrub the records and rewrite the incident(s). A few years later and the church won’t remember who you were, it will all be recorded differently.

  29. Shed Larringer wrote:

    Pastor Mark is a humble

    No. 😆

    A big no on “humble.” I won’t dispute all the other adjectives on your list because I don’t know, but “humble?” No.

  30. @ dee:

    I want to know if you and Deb eat cheetos and yoo hoos as you blog. You have to be careful about the cheetos, you don’t want to get the orange, fuzzy stuff all over your keyboard. 😆 I’m not sure what yoo hoos are, are they little Debbie snack cake things?

  31. ANN — I can’t believe you left out Wake Forest!!! Now, I do love Elon, am an alum of one of the UNC divisions, love all the NC schools (plus Climpsun), but you KNOW that God is a Wake Forest fan — why else would the Bible be black and gold??

    Ann wrote:

    I don’t know what your beef with N.C. is, unless it is sour grapes not getting into Duke, UNC or Davidson. I guess our Cheetos, YooHoos, and don’t forget pig’s feet must be powerful brain food for us to have such good universities. (Oh and Elon, N.C. State, Appalachian etc—–).

  32. Let me just say that as someone who has been at Mars Hill for a long time, the NYTimes stuff is absolutely nothing close to what is going on there. I have heard Driscoll threaten to destroy people numerous times…it is scary stuff, no joke.

  33. Shed Larringer wrote:

    Do you go to Mars Hill Church? Did’nt think so…keep your nose out of our business. ALL the money went to the church, Pastor Mark is a humble, loving leader that would never deceive us or mislead us. We are fine, attendance was up yesterday, worship was rocking, and Jesus is Lord.
    Pastor Mark will get a standing O this weekend and we will move forward with the mission of Jesus and you will be sitting in Raleigh with your cheetos and yoo hoos.
    Get a life sister

    How long have you gone to Mars Hill? As an ex-member I advice you, please listen to what is being said. Things may “seem” fine until it turns on you. Thank you TWW

  34. Dee & Deb, here’s to a case of Cheerwine and a bag of pork rinds to go with your Cheetos.

  35. dee wrote:

    @ Shed Larringer:
    Do you know Mr. Rogers?

    I can verify with certainty — Shed is every bit as real as I am! 🙂

  36. @ Fred Rogers:
    But the real Fred Rogers ONLY comments from way up in Heaven upon Elevation topics, never upon Hill ones. Therefore, I must not be the real me.

  37. My wife and I were so impressed with your answer.

    We have been talking about why we feel such disquiet about those calling for us to ‘mind our own business’. You answer is excellent. Thank you.

    Can we use your answer and give you credit for saying it – Are you on twitter?

  38. This was a reply to Shed alar ringer

    My wife and I were so impressed with your answer.
    We have been talking about why we feel such disquiet about those calling for us to ‘mind our own business’. You answer is excellent. Thank you.
    Can we use your answer and give you credit for saying it – Are you on twitter?

  39. Now I am really getting it wrong. It seems that Mara was the one who wrote the answer. At least I think so. I am one of your older readers so get very confused about who said what.

    Anyway – I was agreeing with the part that said Mark Driscoll has made it our business.

    @ Mara:

  40. Shed Larringer wrote:

    Do you go to Mars Hill Church? Did’nt think so…keep your nose out of our business. ALL the money went to the church, Pastor Mark is a humble, loving leader that would never deceive us or mislead us. We are fine, attendance was up yesterday, worship was rocking, and Jesus is Lord. Pastor Mark will get a standing O this weekend and we will move forward with the mission of Jesus and you will be sitting in Raleigh with your cheetos and yoo hoos. Get a life sister

    Y'all must be drinking something stronger than coffee and kool-aid on Mark's Hill to be falling for Driscoll's charade.  Bless your heart!

  41. @ Nickname:

    Such a wonderful gesture, but we've given up pork rinds for Lent. 😉 

    We can still eat hushpuppies (like the ones from Calabash).  😆

  42. @ Mara:

    Great comment! When Driscoll came and spoke at my daughter's college, that's when I became gravely concerned. He was pushing his sexpertise instead of Christianity, and I decided I had to take a stand against his corrupting influence.

  43. Great line Dee – it bears repeating. 🙂

    “There are some people who also owe Janet Mefferd an apology as well but we won’t hold our breath. This is not a gang that believes in doing humility, merely writing about it and hoping it gets endorsed by another high-rolling, aging, hipster pastor.”

  44. So many unfit men in the pulpit these days…….false shepherds who beat the sheep but go ever so easy on themselves. These men, Driscoll, Furtick, Mahaney, Mohler, Piper…….all of them (and their buds) have done so much damage to the body but worse yet, have disgraced the name of Christ to the nations.

    These power grubbing, money / sex obsessed, "leaders", who show no compassion but instead overlook perversion, are true Pharisees. They heap up burdens on the people, while they live large and burden free. They will throw everyone under the bus but themselves.

    I can’t say I am optimistic about any of them being remorseful, repentant. (seared consciences and all that) I am hopeful though of their influences becoming greatly diminished, especially as cases come to the courts for trial and perhaps the IRS does some poking around in finances.

  45. Pastor Mark has been blessed by God with Teflon on his soul. This “hate” does not hurt him, in fact, he is getting stronger in his spirit because of your bile.
    Jesus said “All who live godly will suffer persecution”. Pastor Mark has done NOTHING wrong. I haven’t slept all night but that’s ok, I spent the night praying for Pastor Mark and our amazing Church. He is full of the Holy Ghost and will persevere and overcome your bitterness and hate.
    Shame on you

  46. In other news, Blighty finally enjoys a period of settled weather. There are only 5 remaining flood-warnings nationwide, down from nearly 200 at one point.

    In celebration of this, I’ve added a winter photo to my award-winning* blog gallery. It additionally gives me great pleasure to announce that my blog has recently topped the Nick Bulbeck International Bestseller list **.

    * Shortlisted for the highly prestigious Best Gallery By Someone Called Nick Bulbeck award of 2014. May not actually have won the award, which may not actually be prestigious. Existence of award not guaranteed. Can aid slimming only as part of a calorie-controlled diet. May contain traces of nuts.

    **Blogs By Nick Bulbeck category.

  47. @ Daisy:

    A preacher started a web site called “Sundays are the worst” where he allows wait staff to complain about stingy Christian tippers.

    I’ve heard this from wait staff for years. Glad to see all those stories are gonna get collected in one place.

  48. Lin wrote:

    “leaders”, who show no compassion

    This is bang on. The first test of whether anyone who calls themselves ‘Christian’ is truly Christian is whether or not they show any signs of empathy. You can spout all the doctrine you want, but if you have no empathy, your doctrine will be warped and you are incapable of following the Second Great Commandment.

  49. To our readers

    Interesting: There are a number of tweets out there which are passing around Shed Larringer’s comment, screen shot and all. These are people who I do not know but who appeared to be clued in to Mars Hill nonsense. They believe that he is NOT joking (I thought he was) and they call him a Mars Hillbot.

    Shed, if this is a joke, could you clarify that? I thought it was a joke-kind of like the “Rogers” family of Elevation. Given the information out there, I may be forced to revise my assumption and it will be so embarrassing for Mars Hill as others see your comment. It is getting around very quickly.

    @ Shed Larringer:

  50. Shed Larringer wrote:

    Pastor Mark will get a standing O this weekend

    That’s one of the saddest things I’ve ever read about a pastor. I hope you wrote it as satire, but if this is really how people who attend Mars Hill respond to Mr. Driscoll’s sermons then he has a lot of work to do to teach them to praise Jesus instead.

  51. Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    I’d compare this severance contract that Driscoll and Mars Hill have departing staff members sign to the contracts that Scientology has departing Sea Org members sign.

    You know, i am getting lots of comments about the comparison of Mars HIll to Scientology. Nothing is new under the sun except which book they choose to comment from.

  52. Mara wrote:

    I’ll leave Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill alone when Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill stops peddling their bad doctrine and wrong teachings in college and universities and stop trying to shove their books and sermons down the throats of Christians in the U.S. and abroad.

    Whoo hooo-you go! Great answer.

  53. Tim wrote:

    Shed Larringer wrote:

    Pastor Mark will get a standing O this weekend

    “SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! FUEHRER! FUEHRER! FUEHRER!”
    — Leon Uris, “Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin”

    “THE VOICE OF A GOD! NOT OF A MAN!
    THE VOICE OF A GOD! NOT OF A MAN!”
    — Book of Acts, regarding Herod Agrippa

  54. Alan Molineaux wrote:

    Now I am really getting it wrong. It seems that Mara was the one who wrote the answer. At least I think so. I am one of your older readers so get very confused about who said what.

    Anyway – I was agreeing with the part that said Mark Driscoll has made it our business.
    ……..

    🙂 Me too. Also heartily agree with Mara’s post.
    @ Mara:

  55. @ JadedOne:
    I am planning on looking into pastors’ homes. I think I may stick up a page to which we can add descriptors of the homes: including cost, theaters, wine cellars, etc.

  56. Karen Hester wrote:

    Pastor Mark has been blessed by God with Teflon on his soul. This “hate” does not hurt him, in fact, he is getting stronger in his spirit because of your bile.
    Jesus said “All who live godly will suffer persecution”.

    And so the spin begins.

    From a Harley Quinn.

  57. Marie wrote:

    How long have you gone to Mars Hill? As an ex-member I advice you, please listen to what is being said. Things may “seem” fine until it turns on you.

    “But that’ll never happen! I’m Pastor Mark’s Court Favorite! How do I know? I got to throw last week’s Court Favorite under the bus!”

  58. @ Katie:
    He has a warped view of mankind and sin. One which is perpetrated by fleecing pastors. Pastors do not sin except for overeating. The rest of us sin, period!

  59. @ BD:
    It might take a person who gave money to Mars HIll to do so. In fact, from what I have been hearing, the reason that Catanzaro got in trouble is a former patient of his reported him but I am waiting for confirmation.

  60. @ Deb:
    I think Mark likes artisan microbrews. I think a number of them have been sipping a wee bit much recently.

  61. Karen Hester wrote:

    Pastor Mark has done NOTHING wrong.

    Bless your heart. I would suggest that you do some reading. It is hard when the guy you admire is shown to be somewhat less than Jesus… The one thing I can promise you is that Jesus will never let you down. Mark has and will continue to do so. There is something wrong and I bet you know it.

    Pray for Grace-she is the one who has been and will continue to be hurt and embarrassed by her husband.

  62. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    ve added a winter photo to my award-winning* blog gallery. I

    Alert: Your link takes me to your sign on page to your dashboard. I really want to see the award winning photos!

  63. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Someday, I want to spend an evening with you in a quaint pub…I would imagine it will be one of the funniest things on record.

    Years ago, I was standing in line to a hotel restaurant in Moscow. A guy who worked for British Airways approached my party and asked if we could squeeze him in since he was in the back of the line. We said yes and it was the best decision we could have made. This guy could do spot on imitations of every Monty Python skit ever made.

    As the night wore on (service is terribly slow there) he became more boisterous, standing up, running around the tables and acting out the skits. Half the people in the restaurant were laughing so hard, the others half were wondering if he should be committed.

    Somehow, I think you might be a lot like him.

  64. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    You can always tell the faithful. The write their full name and send on their comment so that the anointed will pat them on their head as they stick out their hand for dough to keep the temperature at the right place for optimum cooling in the wine cellar. PS-said person does not get to drink the wine.

  65. Yes, I am waiting for him to tell me how to “think biblically” about this situation.

    dee wrote:

    @ Deb:
    Well, Challies needs to step up to the plate and say something.

  66. Tim wrote:

    but if this is really how people who attend Mars Hill respond to Mr. Driscoll’s sermons then he has a lot of work to do to teach them to praise Jesus instead.

    If it’s any consolation the average pew sitter at Mars Hill would not really be applauding Mark Driscoll for a good sermon. They would actually be unknowingly applauding a ghost writer at Docent Research. Driscoll is more like your evening news reporter on television – a handsome, “winsome” man who is good at delivering somebody else’s work.

    http://www.docentgroup.com

  67. @ Karen Hester:

    “Pastor Mark has been blessed by God with Teflon on his soul”
    ++++++++++

    Karen…. not a blessing, but very abnormal. more like some scary personality disorder cocktail.

  68. Daniel P. McGhee wrote:

    Did you see this from a former Elder at Mars Hill?
    http://davekraft.squarespace.com/posts/2014/3/8/do-you-swear-to-tell-the-truth-the-whole-truth-and-nothing-b.html

    If you all haven’t read the comments on this, do so. Some Martians are telling Dave he should sit down and shut up, some are playing the bitterness card, etc– but there are many good responses– including some from recognizable names of former staff. And Dave promises to bring more to light soon.

  69. @ Karen Hester:

    After reading this GEM…I’m thinking of what PT Barnum said about suckers. What really amazes me is why some of these people continue to march to the drum despite the damage that is done. The “gospel” at Mars Hill Seattle is not the “Gospel” that Jesus taught. Instead its the “Gospel” that Paul wanred the Galatians to avoid.

  70. The one thing I am wondering…where is John Piper in all of this?!? He always has a commnet for everything. I wonder if Mark Driscoll destroys Mars Hill would John Piper believe in God’s sovereingty at work? Or would he sin agaisnt God and continue to try and prop up the system and rebel.

  71. @ Eagle:

    “…where is John Piper in all of this?!?”
    +++++++++++++++

    cloistered away with all the other bozo gospel enablers in their members only pastor’s club.

  72. Deb, Dee, everybody:

    Remember Womb Tomb Swanson?

    He may have surfaced this morning on local morning drive-time radio. They played a couple sound bites from a “Swanson” (didn’t catch his first name) denouncing Disney/Pixar’s “Frozen” as “take your five-year-old to see it so she can be indoctrinated in Lesbianism and Bestiality”. Given the subject matter, I think it had to be Womb Tomb.

    Remember how every picture of Womb Tomb Swanson has struck me as “he looks like a high school dorky kid”? If this was him, he also SOUNDS like the dorky kid in high school. More and more he appears to be a dorky Omega Male who found a way to become an Alpha Male by Divine Right, and has been throwing his weight around ever since.

  73. Eagle wrote:

    The one thing I am wondering…where is John Piper in all of this?!? He always has a commnet for everything.

    Since his video several months ago threatening that God was going to bring down the Burj Khalifa tower in Dubai he hasn’t said much. Perhaps he and Pat Robertson are now on the same medication.

  74. dee wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    They are all humble and we are troublemakers.

    Anyone for a Pay Per View “HUMBLE-off” between Cee Jay Mahaney and Bee Jay Driscoll?

  75. dee wrote:

    @ JadedOne:
    I am planning on looking into pastors’ homes. I think I may stick up a page to which we can add descriptors of the homes: including cost, theaters, wine cellars, etc.

    Having grown up in that area, I can tell you it’s nothing to sneeze at. WtH has done excellent public information uncovering with all that, of course.

    On another note regarding MD: I am really troubled by responses I am seeing, and I can draw so many parallels to Fred Phelps, LRH, etc. A biblically sound sermon does not dress-down your wife in front of thousands. It does not talk about people under the bus. The examples are numerous, and the followers are truly blind. A number of my neighbors who have attended in the past are slowly leaving because of what is being said isn’t sitting right in their hearts.

    There is true redemption in those that are repentant, but from the purposeful tweets and fb postings I’ve seen, it isn’t going to happen in this week. There’s too much to lose.

  76. dee wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    They are all humble and we are troublemakers.

    And they even have liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before them to announce how HUMBLE they are!

  77. Eagle wrote:

    After reading this GEM…I’m thinking of what PT Barnum said about suckers. What really amazes me is why some of these people continue to march to the drum despite the damage that is done.

    Because they’re getting personal ego-boo out of it.
    The Anointed actually mentioning them by name as he pats them on the head!
    One of God’s Speshul Pets, part of a Great Movement!
    “THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!”

  78. @ JadedOne:
    Ok., I really want to talk about this, because of something I witnessed repeatedly too, and it wasn’t egven in one of the big mega-churches like Driscoll’s. My Independent Baptist pastor at least every week made deprecating comments about his wife in his sermons, no matter what the subject of the sermon happened to be, and she sat there and took it while the amen corner in the congregation laughed. I often thought, then, and later, how humiliated I would have been if I had been in her shoes, and believe that when someone gains his gratification by belittling and demeaning others and tooting his own horn about how humble he is (and we heard plenty of that) there must be something very wrong with that person, something that ill-qualified them to be a shepherd of Christ’s flock.

  79. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    My family has watched Frozen several times, and I don’t know what Swanson is talking about. Perhaps he “Sees Things,” too. Maybe he is on the same medication that TW speculates Pat Robertson and John Piper are on. @ TW:

  80. Mara wrote:

    Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
    because he’ll belittle anyone, even his wife.
    upon the prompting of a polite MDFanBoy, I went to watch one of Driscoll’s infamous teaching on The Songs.
    The thing that bothered me the most was his assumptions concerning certain phrases in The Songs having overly sexual mean or being misapplied beyond reason.
    The second thing that bothered me was this mockery and scorn (overthetop belittling) of all who disagreed with his version.
    And yes, this is reason enough for him to step down.

    For me it was the BJ evangelism, twisting 1 Peter 3 to about the exact opposite of what it really says

    Women have been MD victims for YEARS!

  81. andrea wrote:

    My Independent Baptist pastor at least every week made deprecating comments about his wife in his sermons

    I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; (Matt 12 : 36)

    Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness. (Jam 3 : 1)

  82. @ Daisy:

    Hi Daisy, I can’t say that I am intimately familiar with the rest of the story but I just wanted to point out that we have wonderful chocolately flavored milk drinks up here in the Northeast called bottles of Yoo Hoo. If I have time later today I will look up to see if they are Southern in origin. I had interpreted the comment as Deb and Dee had previously posted that Yoo Hoo was their favorite drink.

    Maybe someone can clear that up?

    Peace to all…

  83. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Yes, it is the same Womb Tomb Swanson you heard on the radio this morning. Right-wing Watch posted a link to the story in which he makes comments about Disney’s “Frozen” at http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/swanson-disneys-frozen-satanic-push-turn-kids-gay Where is the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and sermonaudio.com in all this? Seemingly every time he says something, it’s ridiculous –so much so that it would be funny if it weren’t so sad. There are no doubt many, in the Reformed Churches and in the OPC, who do not agree with or believe what Swanson is saying, and it’s a shame somebody doesn’t point this out. I also don’t know what “Frozen” is about, but think it’s sad that, based on the warnings of Swanson that people ought not to go see it, they will accept Swanson’s conclusions without question. I grew up in a Fundamentalist church and heard it all .. everything from backward masking to warnings that we should not watch the made-for-Tv movies “Jesus” and “Judas” which were rushed into circulation when “The Passion of the Christ” was released. I might not have liked everything about how a character was portrayed in those movies, but seeing them didn’t undermine my faith or convert me into an atheist or agnostic. A year from now we may look back at Swanson’s comments as silly.

  84. Someone may have brought this up already….

    When ardent followers use the following kinds of phrases to DEFEND THEIR LEADERS: so-and-so leader “would never deceive us,” “is ALWAYS looking out for our best interest,” “preaches Jesus and sets people free and would NEVER hurt anyone,” “is just being PERSECUTED for being a [man or woman] of God, “etc. etc. AND use the following kinds of phrases to UNDERMINE DETRACTORS: “if someone isn’t helped that’s the person’s fault not the leader’s,” “people are just OUT TO GET” said leader, “you must just be resentful,” “you just don’t care about the work of Jesus,” “you are EVIL AND STUPID,” etc. etc., there is strong evidence that cult-like tactics have been and are being used within that leadership/follower-ship sphere.

    Most thinking, healthy followers will be able to, at the end of the day, recognize that a leader is human and fallible. They may defend/support their leaders, but they will use different phrases to do so: “It’s not been my experience that the leader is abusive. I am very surprised to hear this. Regardless, I’m so sorry for what you went through.”

    Likewise, a thinking, healthy leader will recognize that he or she is human and fallible and will NEVER encourage their followers to think otherwise. Ever. This is so important. Healthy leaders consistently point to Jesus and not to themselves. They consistently discuss their flaws by being humble and contrite (not by bragging about them). They become concerned when their followers put them on a pedestal because they know they should not be there.

    The problem with cult/brainwashing techniques is that they discourage healthy critical thinking and encourage one narrative only: leader good, detractors evil.

    Also, I don’t think every leader who engages in brainwashing techniques actively know they are doing it. Some do, some don’t. If a leader has been groomed within an environment (SGM is a great example) that [allegedly] promotes brainwashing techniques as a cultural norm without calling them brainwashing techniques, the leader will be far more likely to implement them in his or her own leadership. Throw in a propensity for narcissism or other disordered personality traits and you’ve got trouble. Brainwashing begets brainwashing begets brainwashing.

    The BITE model is excellent in explaining all of this much better than I could. I’m kind of just summarizing what I’ve gleaned from it and from my own experiences in a certain destructive Christian counseling “ministry” that implemented the above strategies and whose “successful” graduates are constantly defending their leader and decrying detractors using the above phrases.

    Anyway, thanks for letting me share and vent!

  85. @ Sara:
    Love your comment!
    I have another phrase to add to your list: “Those ex-members are like Judas selling Jesus for the silver.”

  86. dee wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    ve added a winter photo to my award-winning* blog gallery. I
    Alert: Your link takes me to your sign on page to your dashboard. I really want to see the award winning photos!

    Duh… try this.

  87. andrea wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Yes, it is the same Womb Tomb Swanson you heard on the radio this morning. Right-wing Watch posted a link to the story in which he makes comments about Disney’s “Frozen” at http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/swanson-disneys-frozen-satanic-push-turn-kids-gay Where is the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and sermonaudio.com in all this? Seemingly every time he says something, it’s ridiculous –so much so that it would be funny if it weren’t so sad. There are no doubt many, in the Reformed Churches and in the OPC, who do not agree with or believe what Swanson is saying, and it’s a shame somebody doesn’t point this out. I also don’t know what “Frozen” is about, but think it’s sad that, based on the warnings of Swanson that people ought not to go see it, they will accept Swanson’s conclusions without question. I grew up in a Fundamentalist church and heard it all .. everything from backward masking to warnings that we should not watch the made-for-Tv movies “Jesus” and “Judas” which were rushed into circulation when “The Passion of the Christ” was released. I might not have liked everything about how a character was portrayed in those movies, but seeing them didn’t undermine my faith or convert me into an atheist or agnostic. A year from now we may look back at Swanson’s comments as silly.

    ohmygosh, Frozen was, hands-down, one of the best movies of 2013. I found it powerful, engaging, spiritually on point — it actually pointed me toward re-engaging with Jesus — and therapeutic. And I am 32 years old! Sigh. Some fundamentalists…

  88. Alan Molineaux wrote:

    Can we use your answer and give you credit for saying it – Are you on twitter?

    You most certainly may use my answer. The more people saying it, the bigger the impact. Plus, I’m a bit honored.

    Nope, not on twitter. I’m a part-time blogger/TWWcommentor. I don’t have time for what I’m trying to do now. Not wise to add more stuff to my plate at this time.
    But this shouldn’t stop others from tweeting appropriate quotes from me and others without accounts.

  89. @ andrea:
    I wonder . . . You know how upset many people were when the Academy rescinded the nomination of “Alone Yet Not Alone” from Best Song category? Well, “Let It Go” from Frozen won. Could there be a connection between this and the bashing of Frozen?

  90. Swanson’s kind of late to the lesbian parade on “Frozen.” A Mormon woman in Utah came unglued about “Frozen” back on February 17. And that woman admitted she’d seen the movie three times! (It’s believed Kathryn Skaggs of “A Well-Behaved Woman was reading her own tribulations about her adult lesbian daughter into the movie. ) So Swanson is also wildly unoriginal.

  91. isn’t it funny how quick we are to judge?

    I thought we were innocent until proven guilty?

    Here you are you Pharisee, calling for pastor Mark’s resignation, you should stop drinking so much cool aid and get some oxygen to your nappy head.

    He is innocent people!!

    There is NO evidence at all of sin here. As Pastor Mark teaches us consistently, “Hurt people hurt people!

    You need to go to the eye doctor, that big log you have in your eye is making you write some weird stuff.

    Truth hurts honey

  92. Larry Tolbert wrote:

    isn’t it funny how quick we are to judge?

    I thought we were innocent until proven guilty?

    Here you are you Pharisee, calling for pastor Mark’s resignation, you should stop drinking so much cool aid and get some oxygen to your nappy head.

    He is innocent people!!

    There is NO evidence at all of sin here. As Pastor Mark teaches us consistently, “Hurt people hurt people!

    You need to go to the eye doctor, that big log you have in your eye is making you write some weird stuff.

    Truth hurts honey

    I’m curious: How do you know, unequivocally, that he is innocent? Rather, what kinds of evidence would it take for you to believe that he, or anyone, is guilty?

  93. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ Sara:
    Love your comment!
    I have another phrase to add to your list: “Those ex-members are like Judas selling Jesus for the silver.”

    Ugh. Yes. That one. Sigh.

  94. Larry Tolbert wrote:

    isn’t it funny how quick we are to judge?

    I thought we were innocent until proven guilty?

    Here you are you Pharisee, calling for pastor Mark’s resignation, you should stop drinking so much cool aid and get some oxygen to your nappy head.

    He is innocent people!!

    There is NO evidence at all of sin here. As Pastor Mark teaches us consistently, “Hurt people hurt people!

    You need to go to the eye doctor, that big log you have in your eye is making you write some weird stuff.

    Truth hurts honey

    Larry,

    Oh you courageous soul, as this is not a court of law, your burden of proof argument is utterly out of place.

    No evidence of sin at all? There is a tremendous amount, and as this is my line of work, I do kind of have some notion of what constitutes “evidence”, both in and out of a court of law, so I’ll certainly not defer to you on this point.

    It would actually seem as if the circling of the wagons mentality that you display is greater evidence of pharisaism that what you’re criticizing in TWW.

    And congratulations on your use of ad hominem, nice demonstration of the spirit that exists within.

  95. Larry Tolbert wrote:

    As Pastor Mark teaches us consistently, “Hurt people hurt people!

    There is plenty of evidence, but I find this a curious thing to quote from MD. How did those elders, lay people, members, etc get hurt exactly? I fear that bus above them did some damage.

  96. Larry Tolbert wrote:

    There is NO evidence at all of sin here. As Pastor Mark teaches us consistently, “Hurt people hurt people!

    Hmm….just an observation. This phrase is one of my abusive ex-pastor’s favorites. After a few years away from his influence and observing other abusers use it, I realized it is a ‘get out of jail free’ type of statement. And it is totally insulting to victims who are hurt and do NOT pass it on…which is the vast majority of them. This statement has become a red flag to me.

  97. @ dee:
    Amidst all Larry’s “sweetness” you may have overlooked a racist remark, ala Imus, which may need edited.

  98. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Larry Tolbert wrote:

    There is NO evidence at all of sin here. As Pastor Mark teaches us consistently, “Hurt people hurt people!

    Hmm….just an observation. This phrase is one of my abusive ex-pastor’s favorites. After a few years away from his influence and observing other abusers use it, I realized it is a ‘get out of jail free’ type of statement. And it is totally insulting to victims who are hurt and do NOT pass it on…which is the vast majority of them. This statement has become a red flag to me.

    It also has that cutesy, word-play, pun-like, bumper sticker-level thought attraction to it–perfect for the weaker members of the herd to latch onto as a catch phrase. More than that, it says essentially nothing, it’s basically tautological.

    It is in sum and substance a perfect phrase for the cultist.

  99. By now, anyone still defending Mark Driscoll, Furtick, Mahaney, etc. MUST be doing so tongue-in-cheek, right? In other words, every comment/commenter here that continues to defend those destructive stage-actors in light of everything that the Lord has been bringing out into the light MUST be a parody, correct? I have been assuming that for some time now, so if any commenter here at TWW is writing to ACTUALLY defend their celebrity “pastor” and to ACTUALLY engage with the community here, please make yourself clearer! Otherwise I (and many others) are just laughing at your comments!

  100. dee wrote:

    Larry Tolbert wrote:
    Truth hurts honey

    Last time someone used “TRUTH HURTS, DOESN’T IT?” on me, it was an internet troll accusing me of bestiality in an email harassment campaign.

  101. Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Right Wing Watch identified the speaker as Kevin “Womb Tomb” Swanson.

    I figured as much.
    Still say the guy sounds as well as looks like a High School Dork from Central Casting.

  102. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Remember Womb Tomb Swanson?
    He may have surfaced this morning on local morning drive-time radio. They played a couple sound bites from a “Swanson” (didn’t catch his first name) denouncing Disney/Pixar’s “Frozen” as “take your five-year-old to see it so she can be indoctrinated in Lesbianism and Bestiality”. Given the subject matter, I think it had to be Womb Tomb.

    I only have cable television and don’t get out to the movie theater often, but, I do sometimes read lots of movie reviews and movie spoilers of current movies, and I read about that one, Frozen.

    I don’t know where he’s getting the “bestiality” part from (I think there is a reindeer character in the film, but the reviews/spoilers I read said nothing about sex. I don’t think a kid’s film would have that type of content anyway).

    As for the “lesbianism.” Unless I am mixing up in my mind the spoilers and reviews of Frozen with some other recent movie, I think it’s a move that has a plot with two sisters. One of the sisters marries some guy she barely knows.

    She later learns the guy who is dating her, a Prince Charming, is a jerk. This is contrary to most Disney movies that show a woman immediately marrying Prince Charming she just met.

    This movie has a lesson to ladies to not be in such a hurry to marry, if you do want to marry, be sure you know the guy well (he may be a jerk playing the part of a dream boat).

    Another related sub plot has the sister breaking off her romance with the Prince Charming to go rescue her sister.

    I happen to think that’s a good lesson. As an adult, never married person, I can tell you our secular and Christian culture makes much too much out of romance, finding a soul mate, and marriage. It’s refreshing to see single characters on screen, or someone who chooses say, friend or family, over romance.

    The sister choosing to save her sister and dumping the jerky Prince Charming may be where the guy on the radio show is getting the lesbianism angle from, but I don’t see how a “sister caring about a sister = lesbianism.” I think it’s icky reading lesbianism or incest, into a normal caring, sibling relationship.

  103. Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    Swanson’s kind of late to the lesbian parade on “Frozen.”

    Hawt Lezbo Action is a favorite subject/plotline of straight male porn. Like they’re going for an audience of male “fag hags” or something. Think I’m onto something, considering how so many of these Culture Warrior types seem so terrified of Lesbians. (I’d cue up “Here Come the Leaping Lesbians from classic Dr Demento right now, but all the YouTube copies have crappy sound quality.) Or pissed off because if she’s Lesbian, she’s unavailable for the Manly Man’s Penetrating/Colonizing/Conquering/Planting and that cannot be allowed to be.

  104. Charis wrote:

    For me it was the BJ evangelism, twisting 1 Peter 3 to about the exact opposite of what it really says
    Women have been MD victims for YEARS!

    I said in a post yesterday, and I still feel, it’s odd that Driscoll has views so sexist about women – he seems to view them as blow up dolls for their spouses and not much more, and he depicts biblical women such as Esther as being trollops, etc.

    Yet, on some pages at the Mars Hill site, or in press releases I’ve seen about his books or whatever, he is presented as being a champion of women, someone who truly, deeply cares about women, especially abused women.

    I saw that just saw that type of comment this past week on some site – he or his church described him as caring very much about “abused women.”

    Some of his views, teachings, and attitudes toward women undergird the very abuse by husbands against women he claims to be against, so I’m at a loss. If you really are opposed to abuse against women, stop supporting and spreading some of the very attitudes that support it in the first place.

  105. @ Marie2:

    Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing bottles of a chocolate drink called “Yoo Hoo” in stores before, though I’ve never bought any myself. It escaped me reading that person’s post above who brought it up, though. I couldn’t remember what it was.

  106. Sara wrote:

    Also, I don’t think every leader who engages in brainwashing techniques actively know they are doing it. Some do, some don’t. If a leader has been groomed within an environment (SGM is a great example) that [allegedly] promotes brainwashing techniques as a cultural norm without calling them brainwashing techniques, the leader will be far more likely to implement them in his or her own leadership.

    I have heard similar said about Scientology. When L Ron Hubbard died (spun as “shed his body to research higher and hither levels of Scientology”), his leadership role as “Flag” was taken up by David Miscavage, head of Sea Org, said to have been born and raised in Scientology.

  107. Dave A A wrote:

    @ dee:
    Amidst all Larry’s “sweetness” you may have overlooked a racist remark, ala Imus, which may need edited.

    Thank you for bringing that up. I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought that.

  108. Dave A A wrote:

    @ dee:
    Amidst all Larry’s “sweetness” you may have overlooked a racist remark, ala Imus, which may need edited.

    Yeah, that jumped out at me, too. It’s bizarre, and really makes me think some of the commenters lately are somewhat unhinged.

  109. Daisy wrote:

    I think it’s icky reading lesbianism or incest, into a normal caring, sibling relationship.

    Unless the guy reading it in has a Very Dirty Mind to begin with.

    Which may very well be the case; if I remember right Womb Tomb Swanson was born and raised in the extreme Evangelical Homeschool subculture, which would tend to produce an extended period of guilt-ridden Horny Celibacy from puberty to marriage. Seems to me that could easily result in runaway sexual fantasies which cannot be uttered aloud. (Which in itself could lead to a double life of deceit and pretending and mask-wearing until — like that old Twilight Zone episode — your face shapes itself into the mask. Permanently.)

  110. Larry Tolbert wrote:

    I thought we were innocent until proven guilty?

    I thought Driscoll and/or his church had already admitted to some wrong doing for some of the incidents in the past months, and for the stuff they did not, they removed evidence of it from their web site?

    In the case of buying Mars Hill’s way on to NY times list, the folks at Mars Hill don’t deny they did it but are attempting to spin it as being normal behavior anyone would do.

    Mark Driscoll Takes Apologetic Tone During Sermon; Mars Hill Church Board Addresses Latest Controversy

  111. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I wonder . . . You know how upset many people were when the Academy rescinded the nomination of “Alone Yet Not Alone” from Best Song category? Well, “Let It Go” from Frozen won. Could there be a connection between this and the bashing of Frozen?

    As in “I Didn’t Win, SO I’LL MAKE SURE NOBODY CAN!!!!!!”?

    Like a three-year-old who’s never heard the word “No”.

  112. Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    Swanson’s kind of late to the lesbian parade on “Frozen.” A Mormon woman in Utah came unglued about “Frozen” back on February 17.

    “Mormon woman in Utah”

    From talking to California Mormons, Utah Mormons have the reputation as the most rigid and extreme. “Fundamentalist”, if that term in Mormonism hadn’t already been taken by polygamist cults.

  113. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Ever notice that outside of these guys’ yes-men and drooling fanboys, they’re laughingstocks?

    Yep. It looks like nobody inside the Elevation church saw anything weird about the “Steve Furtick, support the pastor’s vision” kid coloring book.

    To the rest of us who saw it on, it was alarming or weird. Stuff like that is normal to people in the culture but to people not a part of it, it’s like 😯

  114. Dave A A wrote:

    Amidst all Larry’s “sweetness” you may have overlooked a racist remark, ala Imus, which may need edited.

    “Your nappy head” as in “nappy” subbing for another N-word?

  115. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    Amidst all Larry’s “sweetness” you may have overlooked a racist remark, ala Imus, which may need edited.
    “Your nappy head” as in “nappy” subbing for another N-word?

    Even if it’s not used as a substitution, it’s historically been used in a derogatory manner. Not always–I think the meaning depends a lot on context, but the context here was to be rude, and to use a word with racial connotations to do so.

  116. Daisy wrote:

    Yep. It looks like nobody inside the Elevation church saw anything weird about the “Steve Furtick, support the pastor’s vision” kid coloring book.

    To the rest of us who saw it on, it was alarming or weird. Stuff like that is normal to people in the culture but to people not a part of it, it’s like

    It’s hard to imagine how anyone looking at the Elevation coloring book couldn’t see stunning similarities to Soviet, North Korean, and Nazi propaganda. But it goes to show what happens when someone–either through cowardice or due to serious psychological disorder–abdicates their responsibility to think for themselves and face God; it’s much easier to turn this over to someone else

  117. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Sara wrote:
    Also, I don’t think every leader who engages in brainwashing techniques actively know they are doing it. Some do, some don’t. If a leader has been groomed within an environment (SGM is a great example) that [allegedly] promotes brainwashing techniques as a cultural norm without calling them brainwashing techniques, the leader will be far more likely to implement them in his or her own leadership.
    I have heard similar said about Scientology. When L Ron Hubbard died (spun as “shed his body to research higher and hither levels of Scientology”), his leadership role as “Flag” was taken up by David Miscavage, head of Sea Org, said to have been born and raised in Scientology.

    Absolutely. Scientology is, in my opinion, one of the worst perpetrators of systematic brainwashing. Allegedly and all that.

  118. lemonaidfizz wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    Amidst all Larry’s “sweetness” you may have overlooked a racist remark, ala Imus, which may need edited.
    “Your nappy head” as in “nappy” subbing for another N-word?

    Even if it’s not used as a substitution, it’s historically been used in a derogatory manner. Not always–I think the meaning depends a lot on context, but the context here was to be rude, and to use a word with racial connotations to do so.

    Even I picked that up. Given the very poor judgement & powers of discernment shown in his whole email he really may be being racist. Very sad.

  119. @ Daisy:
    Daisy.

    Yes, Yoo Hoo is a chocolate drink. And truthfully, I think it is profoundly odd to suggest pairing it with Cheetos as I just don’t think they play to each other’s strengths, but rather get in each other’s way.

    I think Yoo Hoo ironically goes better with another chocolate snack, like a Hostess chocolate cupcake. Or if that’s just too much chocolate at once (there are times when less is more, after all), you could pair it with Twinkies. If you were inclined in the chip direction, you could get away with plain potato chips (ridged is fine) or more likely Fritos corn chips. I’m not sure about flavored chips, though you might be able to do it with sour cream and onion or perhaps barbeque. But I’d stay away from cheese flavored chips with You Hoo.

    You could also have it with a sandwich, though probably not an Italian sub type thing. It would certainly work with peanut butter, especially on white.

    But for Cheetos I think a better pairing would be something like 7 Up, or perhaps if you were feeling more daring you could try Fresca or even ginger ale. I believe Snapple tea might work too, in a pinch, though it’s not my first choice.

    But Yoo Hoo and Cheetos? Not feelin’ that, personally.

    This is, of course, all strictly a matter of opinion. Maybe the Yoo Hoo/Cheetos combination is what they do at Mars Hill when they are trolling other people’s blogs and so they assume everyone else does it too. Dunno. It’s just not something I would do myself.

  120. http://davekraft.squarespace.com/posts/2014/3/8/do-you-swear-to-tell-the-truth-the-whole-truth-and-nothing-b.html?currentPage=5#comments

    mars hill pdx, leader x was asked to step down was put in someone’s small group. small group leader (y) asked questions from a pastor about leader x, about “not allowing him to be alone with children or not allowing him to walk the babysitter home. pastor said it wasn’t anything like that and I shouldn’t concern myself with it.”

    turns out leader x had committed sex crime. he’s no longer allowed to be in leadership. but small group leader y was lied to, questions deflected, not warned, told not to worry.

  121.   __

    “Give Up Hope All Ye Who Enter Marzhill” ?

    hmmm…

      Must the pastor(s) of Mars Hill beat Jesus’ church in Seattle, Washington,  beyond all visible recognition before someone will listen, and act?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoJpW6U7sVg

    (tears)

    “It’s still a mystery to me,
    That the hands of God,
    Could be so small, 
    How tiny fingers,
    reaching in the night,
    (could be)
    …the very hands that measured the sky… ~ Joy Williams
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EosUH0orVUg

    *
    “Take these things away; stop making My Father’s house a place of business…” ~Jesus

    *
    My Lord’s house shall be called a house of prayer, and you have made it a den of a New York Times bestseller?

    What?

    Most Gracious Heavenly Father, the zeal of commercialism hath eaten thine house up!

    …see ye to it, I pray thee!

    (sadface)

    before da proverbial locusts come…

    Ut’O

    Sopy
    __
    clip: ‘Walking on Water’ from the 2014 film ‘Son of God’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONeM2X309I8

  122. Crucify him crucify him! The time for talk and half measures is over. Lets all get together and literally lynch him. None of these men are saved or have any shot at salvation, there is no room for grace with these bastards and we must not show any.

    This blog is sad a more appropriate name for this blog would be bloodthirstyandbitter

    The unsaved are a stones throw away, but we would rather throw those stones at each other.

  123. As more and more comes out, we begin to see some classic Mars Hill/Acts 29 defense techniques:

    (i) Attack/shame the whistleblower as a way to negate their critique (i.e. “You are only saying these things because you’re bitter/anger/sinful in some way, therefore what you have to say is invalid.”)

    (ii) Non-sequiturs (“Mars Hill has a great [preaching/youth/homeless/CG] ministry, therefore what you are saying must be invalid.”). As an aside, I do empathize with those individuals who are sincerely struggling with severe cognitive dissonance during this time.

    (iii) Conflate the church with the accused wrongdoer as a way of shutting down critique of said wrongdoer (i.e. “By critiquing Pastor X, you are hurting the church! How horrible and sinful! Stop critiquing Pastor X so you don’t hurt the church!”).

  124. As long as these men equate numbers (attendance) and income with success, they will NEVER ADMIT WRONG.

    These men have made a serious error (one among many): They have believed their own press. Most men who begin to be used by God are soon set aside by pride. Their organizations may indeed have begun in the Spirit, but due to pride must be maintained by the flesh – programs, events, fear and flattery.

    The problem with pride is that it always leads to blindness; they are unable to see their sin for what it is, but consider themselves quite capable of “seeing” the sins of others (just consider Bill Gothard).

    In the end, their sin will find them out. The patience of God is limited – the Spirit of God will not strive with a man forever (Genesis 6:3).

  125. Larry Tolbert wrote:

    There is NO evidence at all of sin here.

    Who needs to go to the eye doctor? Who is drinking the kool-aid?
    This is rich.
    These parodies are getting better and better all the time. More outlandish, more over-the-top, more comical in their denial of the mountains of sin-evidence piled up behind the spiritually-murderous Mars Hill take-no-prisoners bus.
    Yep, this is rich.
    And somewhat entertaining in a pathetic way.

  126. Daisy wrote:

    folks at Mars Hill don’t deny they did it but are attempting to spin it as being normal behavior anyone would do.
    Mark Driscoll Takes Apologetic Tone During Sermon; Mars Hill Church Board Addresses Latest Controversy

    Mark Driscoll from Daisy’s link:
    “When we started Mars Hill I was more like an angry young prophet,” he said. “Very loud, very intense, and honestly had a lot of anger. As I’m getting older, what the Holy Spirit is really convicting me of, especially in the last year, is that I need to be more like a spiritual father. My tone needs to be fatherly,”

    Wow. He compares his young self to a prophet. Now he wants everyone to see him as fatherly.

    Uhm. No.

    You don’t get to do that. You don’t get to leave piles and piles of bodies behind the Mars Hill bus with no apologies, repentance, and time off to think about what you’ve done, and then expect people to look upon you as a Spiritual father. Doesn’t happen that way.

    Don’t flatter yourself with such grandiose imaginations, past and present.

    You were an angry, perverted, and misguided teacher of falsehoods concerning the Song of Solomon. In NO WAY IMAGINABLE a prophet
    You were and still may be a bully.
    You were and still may be misogynous.
    You were and still may be a plagiarizer.
    You did and still may worship the masculine and yourself.

    Until public acknowledgement and repentance for all these very public sins are made, we have no way of knowing that there is any real change. You do not qualify as a spiritual father because you have been abusive. And you probably still are.

  127. @ Fatchel Gilsmith:
    Did you know that your very comment points out the reason why Driscoll is in so much trouble? You use cliche phrases that we have written about on this blog for years.The reason that you do so is that you have been taught by a guy who can only go just so far with his schtick. Weak and tedious…

    If you really knew your Scripture, you would know that we are to be Bereans and to weigh what is going on. your pastor has jumped up and down to be noticed. Well, he is getting noticed and you don’t get to tell us what we see.

  128. MARS HILLBOTS

    Suggestions from an experienced blogger. If you want to make your case, try very hard not to sound like Mark Driscoll. Take it from me. He is NOT a good role model. There is a reason for constant staff turnover and statements about “acrimonious” leave taking.

    State your point of view without threats or insults. If you use these techniques, you lose. People outside of your little group of people merely laugh at you and shake their heads. Get clever and show that you can actually think for yourself.

    You are all sounding like a Kool aid cult. Good night!

    I am going to bed. if you are new and if you are insulting, you may be stuck in moderation until 8AM EST.

  129. Fatchel Gilsmith wrote:

    he unsaved are a stones throw away, but we would rather throw those stones at each other.

    Driscoll threw the first stones and fired the first shots. He did so through his insults, mockery, and belittling of those he didn’t agree with and who didn’t agree with him.
    So if you want someone to blame for casting the first hundred, perhaps thousand stones, blame your god, your lord and savior, Mark Driscoll.

  130. Fatchel Gilsmith wrote:

    This blog is sad a more appropriate name for this blog would be bloodthirstyandbitter

    Interesting you found a way around the prohibited use of the word “bitter.”

    The word “bitter” is banned from TWW. Use a thesaurus for alternatives/

  131. Mara wrote:

    Wow. He compares his young self to a prophet. Now he wants everyone to see him as fatherly.

    I think the real reason he’s tacking that tack now?

    As revealed in some other interview he gave not too long ago, he said he wants to be a pastor to pastors now, which means he has to tone down the frat boy look and persona, or trash it totally and play up the wise, older, fatherly persona.

    In other words, I think it’s motivated by money. I guess he did the frat boy persona to attract the 20 year old guys to his church.

  132. Daisy wrote:

    play up the wise, older, fatherly persona.

    Patriarchy anyone?
    It never dies. They just repackage it and demand that we agree with their doctrine again.

  133. Dave A A wrote:

    @ dee:
    Amidst all Larry’s “sweetness” you may have overlooked a racist remark, ala Imus, which may need edited.

    That was the first thing I saw, too. (It is more than a little revelatory of the nature of the author of the post).

  134. Fatchel Gilsmith wrote:

    Crucify him crucify him! The time for talk and half measures is over. Lets all get together and literally lynch him. None of these men are saved or have any shot at salvation, there is no room for grace with these bastards and we must not show any.

    This blog is sad a more appropriate name for this blog would be bloodthirstyandbitter

    The unsaved are a stones throw away, but we would rather throw those stones at each other.

    Oh, dear. You’ve been at the cheap drugs and bathtub gin again, haven’t you, yean? I can tell by the glazed expression in your (quoted) post.

  135. zooey111 wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    @ dee:
    Amidst all Larry’s “sweetness” you may have overlooked a racist remark, ala Imus, which may need edited.
    That was the first thing I saw, too. (It is more than a little revelatory of the nature of the author of the post).

    I’m sure Larry is a parody, just like his best buds Shed and Fatchel. Poe’s Law declares:
    “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.”
    Of course, Martians might NOT like to be thought of as fundamentalists. They’re too cool for that!

  136. Sara wrote:

    I don’t think every leader who engages in brainwashing techniques actively know they are doing it. Some do, some don’t. If a leader has been groomed within an environment (SGM is a great example) that [allegedly] promotes brainwashing techniques as a cultural norm without calling them brainwashing techniques, the leader will be far more likely to implement them in his or her own leadership.

    Same with Calvary Chapel. It becomes the cultural norm to act in such a way as a leader, so one thinks they must display these sorts of actions/attitudes in order to be seen as a quality leader, recognized as such by peers.

  137. dee wrote:

    your pastor has jumped up and down to be noticed. Well, he is getting noticed and you don’t get to tell us what we see.

    One of the best lines I’ve ever read! Gonna have to use this one.

  138. dee wrote:

    Pray for Grace-she is the one who has been and will continue to be hurt and embarrassed by her husband.

    For years many people felt so sorry for our Calvary Chapel pastor’s wife, because he made many comments from the pulpit that put his wife in a bad light. He tried to sound like he worked through their marriage issues, but he always left us thinking that he was still blaming her … which he did, again, when he got caught with 4 different women. During his “repentance” speech from the pulpit he blamed his temptations on his wife, yet again. No one was buying what he was selling.

    However, after years of praying for his wife and giving her all the compassion, she still supported him when he returned to set up a new church up the road from the old one only a year after he was thrown out. He still hasn’t shown repentance, and still denies some things that are verifiable. It’s also come to light just how much Jesus money she was and continues to spend. We are not so compassionate and supportive of her anymore. She has become an enabler of the narcissist.

    I hope Grace has not yet become an enabler. But may she be warned that if she doesn’t begin to stand up to her husband and his bad behavior, she will be known as a participant.

  139. @ Katie:

    The way Mark and Grace sit/act together on TV interviews creeps me out. Grace spends the entire interview smiling and staring adoringly at his face while he talks (she’s often silent), usually with one hand on his leg. I’m sure a lot of people think this is sweet, but it makes me think of abused and intimidated “submissive” wives who’ve lost their personhood entirely.

    It’s funny, because our church is looking to call an associate pastor right now from the LCMS seminaries. They did Skype interviews with the candidates and some of them brought their wives. A lot of people commented on how adoring and devoted the wives looked. I don’t think it was to the level of Grace (I wasn’t at these interviews, my mom was), but it still made me nervous because it reminded me of Grace’s interview behavior. After exposure to enforced public happiness in patriarchy, you realize that it’s not necessarily a positive quality if the wife acts like that.

  140. Hester wrote:

    The way Mark and Grace sit/act together on TV interviews creeps me out.

    Funny you should say that. But when I saw some of the sermons where MD called his wife to say something (I think mostly to do with his Real Marriage preaching), Grace’s behaviour and voice made me think “abused wife – survivor – Stockholm syndrome”. I felt really sorry for her just watching her.

    I know of course that remote diagnosis is impossible and something only charlatans would do (including certain prechers), and I realise that I could be completely wrong. The impression that I must feel sorry for her was very strong, though.

    If this whole thing blows up, I think that we must relly fear for her.

  141. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    The views in those photos are breathtaking! Did you take those yourself?

    In our text conversation the other day, my brother asked our father about our Scottish ancestry. My grandmother’s maiden name was McDuff. (We, like many Americans, are a melting pot of nationalities.) When we visited Scotland many years ago, we purchased some woolen skirts and scarves made from the McDuff plaid. I guess my father has found more info since then. (He loves genealogy, and is like a child in a sweet shop since discovering Ancestry dot com.) My sixth great grandfather, Thomas McElduff (born about 1732) came from Scotland. His son changed the name to McDuff after the war.
    So, I learned something new.

  142. Mara wrote:

    Mark Driscoll from Daisy’s link:
    “When we started Mars Hill I was more like an angry young prophet,” he said. “Very loud, very intense, and honestly had a lot of anger. As I’m getting older, what the Holy Spirit is really convicting me of, especially in the last year, is that I need to be more like a spiritual father. My tone needs to be fatherly,”

    Wow. He compares his young self to a prophet. Now he wants everyone to see him as fatherly.

    Uhm. No.

    Exactly.

    A “faterly tone” does not a father figure make. That is something that you have earn. Like trust. “Trust me, I’m a pastor!” won’t cut it. Trust is earned. (If it’s not earned, it’s something else altogether. Trusting someone deeply who hast’t earned it is gullibility.)

    Same for authority. You don’t have authority because you say so, or because someone gives you a certificate of anything, but you will be an authority when people see that you are trustworthy, know exactly what you are doing, and transparent with them.

    I think so much of the toxic and abusive culture is caused by the cult of “leadership” that started in the 1980s. From the business world, where executives get hugeely inappropriate salaries and even more inappropriate golden handshakes when they’ve really messed up (http://www.minyanville.com/businessmarkets/articles/ceo-salary-executive-salaries-golden-handsakes/10/28/2011/id/37619 and http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/299382-nokia-ceo-ignores-outrage-over-25-million-golden-handshake/ and http://www.newsday.com/business/when-compensation-is-golden-critics-say-pay-committees-grasso-set-bad-examples-1.275755 ), to celebrity magachurch pastors who expect CEO-level pay and perks and real submission by their team: insufficient submission to leadership was the one thing that led to the firing of MH elders. But authority has to be earned, it does not come with the nice office and title of “senior …”.

    You’re only a leader, if people trust you because you have earned their trust. Otherwise, you are a wolf among the sheep.

  143. Katie wrote:
    Same with Calvary Chapel. It becomes the cultural norm to act in such a way as a leader, so one thinks they must display these sorts of actions/attitudes in order to be seen as a quality leader, recognized as such by peers.

    Oh, Katie, that’s terrible. I’m so sorry!

  144. Katie wrote:

    It’s also come to light just how much Jesus money she was and continues to spend. We are not so compassionate and supportive of her anymore. She has become an enabler of the narcissist.

    Shopping is often a diversion/distraction for women. If she lacks companionship. it becomes a panacea much the same as golfing, sports, etc. does for many men.

    Of course it’s natural imo for women to become enablers if their entire existence is dependent on her husband’s income and/or position. Some women in my grandmothers generation didn’t know how to drive a vehicle or even write a check. Learned helplessness should not be valued today, but unfortunately it often is in churches and even applauded.

  145. If you think that the leadership at MH would take correction or spiritual counsel from a woman and honor your request to step down, you are sorely mistaken. How convenient it is for them to have created an environment where women’s voices are restricted. It’s often the case that the women in the church have greater insight into the spiritual and emotional well-being of its attendees. The MH men in charge don’t want to be encumbered by the those “emotions”. They are driving a bus and don’t care who ends up underneath.

  146. David wrote:

    If you think that the leadership at MH would take correction or spiritual counsel from a woman and honor your request to step down, you are sorely mistaken. How convenient it is for them to have created an environment where women’s voilces are restricted. It’s often the case that the women in the church have greater insight into the spiritual and emotional well-being of its attendees. The MH men in charge don’t want to be encumbered by the those “emotions”. They are driving a bus and don’t care who ends up underneath.

    It is quite interesting to see what is going on in churches where (gifted) women have been silenced and may have no part of the infamous “leadership” functions isn’t it? I can only imagine what Paul would say in a letter.

  147.    __

    MerkyD: “Thump! Thump! , Don’t Stop Me… ?”

    “They (ed. MH) are driving a bus and don’t care who ends up underneath.” ~ David

    hmmm…

    “…anyone who has foolishly sought to navigate the proverbial Mars Hill bus from dis here 501(c)3 non- profit’s corporate back seat, has wound up quickly shoved out the emergency exit and under it’s wheels…”

    __
    comic relief?: “A proverbial ‘religious’ bus on da highway to where?” (Ukrainian Folk Version)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3YQ24i1wP0

    ;~)

  148. Bridget wrote:

    David wrote:

    If you think that the leadership at MH would take correction or spiritual counsel from a woman and honor your request to step down, you are sorely mistaken. How convenient it is for them to have created an environment where women’s voilces are restricted. It’s often the case that the women in the church have greater insight into the spiritual and emotional well-being of its attendees. The MH men in charge don’t want to be encumbered by the those “emotions”. They are driving a bus and don’t care who ends up underneath.

    It is quite interesting to see what is going on in churches where (gifted) women have been silenced and may have no part of the infamous “leadership” functions isn’t it? I can only imagine what Paul would say in a letter.

    David and Bridget are dead on. I went to a NeoCal New Frontiers church that practiced this more-or-less. I was even on the Board of Elders, and when I suggested that perhaps a woman could be on the board with her responsibilities to be over women’s ministries I was shot down in flames, based on their interpretation of the Bible. Now mind you, this was a Board of Elders that included young passionate misguided men barely out of their teens who’d become believers (if they really were, but that’s a subject for another time) in their late teens. In other words, the pastor and his right hand man/enforcer (who reminded me of a more muscular, bald Driscoll) were perfectly willing to violate the Bible when it came to having spanking new believers as elders (whom they could push around and make into “yes men”), but got ultra pedantic about women as elders (whom, at least with regard to my wife and some other qualified middle aged women there, they definitely couldn’t).

    Men definitely need women, the most humble man on the face of the earth needed a Zipporah to fiercely upbraid him, otherwise he’d have been killed by the Lord Himself–you could look it up. This is likely why we see such issues among these types, they’ve cut off their women and lost their counterbalance.

    My wife likens this phenomenon to a washing machine where all the clothes have gone to one side and it starts clank clanking and walking across the laundry room.

  149. LawProf wrote:

    My wife likens this phenomenon to a washing machine where all the clothes have gone to one side and it starts clank clanking and walking across the laundry room.

    Love it!

  150. Victorious wrote:

    LawProf wrote:

    My wife likens this phenomenon to a washing machine where all the clothes have gone to one side and it starts clank clanking and walking across the laundry room.

    Love it!

    Yep. My wife’s the brains of the outfit, always has this insight, comes up with great analogies, has multiple hard sciences degrees, and she kicks my butt rhetorically when I start listing towards Driscollesque attitudes.

  151. @ Shed Larringer:
    Really? Cannot believe the nerve you have Shred. I am one of the many many people under that bus, with my husband and children of course. We have been through HELL because of this one man’s power trip and ego. He is an infection spreading through our community. His doctrines victimize women and damage our savior. I will NOT BE TOLD TO BE SILENT ever again! You are a fool, and others who follow him are fools as well…eveyone knows you don’t eat cheetos with yahoo…sigh.

  152. Deb does anyone have the name of a good lawyer, we have decided to push this further and sue Mr. Driscoll for what happened to our family while apart of his Acts 29 travesty. We feel they crossed a line when they handed out those letters about us and we still are being ostracized by people out here who won’t talk to us or if they do it is an ugly confrontation we get. The last one happened just a few days ago, years after we were thrown out. We are tired and cannot afford to move as my whole life is here and my children and grandkids. If someone could help us find a good lawyer who will work for a percentage we are willing to shove this lawsuit up his ….nose…lol. Thanks.

  153. Hester wrote:

    After exposure to enforced public happiness in patriarchy, you realize that it’s not necessarily a positive quality if the wife acts like that.

    “Hell has no torment as terrible as Constant Forced Cheerfulness.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, “Three Tools of Death” (Father Brown Mystery)

  154. @ rebeccalynn:

    The best resource may be some of the elders who were also tossed out and put under the bus. You need a local or not far from local attorney, since the suit will have to be in a local court, whether state or federal. And do not delay, as their is a statute of limitations (SOL) and if you pass that date, you will be SOL (not the nice word there as the S, outta luck!). Of course, the damage is still happening, so that may extend the SOL, depending upon state law. The other means of finding an attorney is to contact the local bar association or state bar. Your case is probably a case of defamation (slander, libel), and if the children are affected you should be listed as a plaintiff for yourself and as “next friends” of your children.

  155. @ rebeccalynn:

    The best resource may be some of the elders who were also tossed out and put under the bus. You need a local or not far from local attorney, since the suit will have to be in a local court, whether state or federal. And do not delay, as their is a statute of limitations (SOL) and if you pass that date, you will be SOL (not the nice word there as the S, outta luck!). Of course, the damage is still happening, so that may extend the SOL, depending upon state law. The other means of finding an attorney is to contact the local bar association or state bar. Your case is probably a case of defamation (slander, libel), and if the children are affected you should be listed as a plaintiff for yourself and as “next friends” of your children.

  156.   __

    Striking Religious Phenomenon: “Juzz Wanna…What?”

    hmmm…

    MerkyD, Live at da proverbial Marzhil church ; first person singular:  “I juzzzz wanna bang on ma bully pulpit all da dang day…Try and stoppppp me?”

    Bonk! Bonk! Bonk! Bonk! Bonk!…

    Clank! Clank!

    (crash!)
    __
    comic relief: “Letz Get Stupid?!?”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNQLJJbbc5w

  157. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    It’s a braw country right enough; yes, I did take them (which means I got to be there). A more accomplished photographer than I – which would be, an accomplished photographer – would make them look even better.

    Interesting to hear about your ancestry. Oddly enough, every American preacher who visited the christian motivational speaking businesses (or “church”, as the CEO called it) we were part of in Glasgow claimed some Scottish ancestry. I think they were trying to be cool. But evidently you actually have some!

    Ironically, I probably don’t. Never mind…

  158. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    My spouse’s mother was a Burns and our son has visited, coming back with a kilt and accouterments thereto. Mine ancestry were mostly common English trade names like Baker, except for one GGGmother (maybe another G or two) who left the Trail of Tears (Cherokee).

  159. @ Mr.H:
    You just summed up my situation in three points! If only our church had ran away from the Acts 29 machine as fast as it could. It might still be a vibrant church home with ministries reaching out to our community still. Instead we have an empty building and another Acts 29 plant that failed and moved across town to another building taking with it the spoils of war.

  160. @ Daisy:

    On the one hand it didn’t bother me, since the associate’s family is going to be part of the congregation. The profile from the seminary also gave information about whether the wife had a degree, where she was from, etc. Then on the other hand, our pastor had to keep reminding the call committee that we aren’t hiring the wife.

  161. rebeccalynn wrote:

    Deb does anyone have the name of a good lawyer, we have decided to push this further and sue Mr. Driscoll for what happened to our family while apart of his Acts 29 travesty. We feel they crossed a line when they handed out those letters about us and we still are being ostracized by people out here who won’t talk to us or if they do it is an ugly confrontation we get. The last one happened just a few days ago, years after we were thrown out. We are tired and cannot afford to move as my whole life is here and my children and grandkids. If someone could help us find a good lawyer who will work for a percentage we are willing to shove this lawsuit up his ….nose…lol. Thanks.

    I don’t know any in your area, but there’s a good resource (www.martindale.com) for looking up attorney ratings, peer reviews and the like. If Driscoll told lies about you and particularly put them in writing, that’s libel, and a loss of reputation, friends and acquaintances is actionable damages in that case. Best to you, very sorry to hear about the way you were treated. Perhaps survivors of the church ought to attempt to get a class action certified.

  162. Regarding the use of the word ‘nappy’: I was born and brought up in the Carolinas, and never once thought this was a racial slur – never heard it used as such, though I can see how someone might think it has a negative racial connotation. In my world, it simply means curly or wooly. If you’ve ever sewn, you know that pattern layouts are designated for fabrics ‘with nap’ or ‘without nap.’ Corduroy, velvet, and velour have nap. Cotton does noes not.

    Here’s the definition from dictionary.com — note that the origin is dated 1490-1500:
    nap¡py3 [nap-ee] Show IPA
    adjective, nap¡pi¡er, nap¡pi¡est.
    1.
    covered with nap; downy.
    2.
    (of hair) kinky.
    Origin:
    1490–1500; nap2 + -y1lemonaidfizz wrote:

    Dave A A wrote:
    Amidst all Larry’s “sweetness” you may have overlooked a racist remark, ala Imus, which may need edited.
    “Your nappy head” as in “nappy” subbing for another N-word?
    Even if it’s not used as a substitution, it’s historically been used in a derogatory manner. Not always–I think the meaning depends a lot on context, but the context here was to be rude, and to use a word with racial connotations to do so.

  163. __

    According to the scriptures, any one in the office of elder whose character and reputation are not above reproach, or whose authority is undermined by ‘a recurring pattern’ of sinful behavior in their life, ought to be removed from office.

  164. Why? Mars Hill is a television church in the same vein as Joel Osteen. Anyone with a a functional internet connection can see the content of public messages. Osteen sells a bill of goods to the poor, the depressed, the suffering. Driscoll sells a different version of prosperity to boys that embrace a hyper-masculinized understanding of gender.
    While many of us will not go to this church, we have friends and family who are being caught up in this web. It is our Christian responsibility to evil leaders to repentance, and cry out warnings to those who are being taught a false gospel.

    @ Shed Larringer:

  165.  __

    “Incredible Happenings”

    Hmmm…

    Dee: “Incredible Happenings Surrounding Mars Hill. We will write more tomorrow. For now, Rob Smith-a former elder, has started a Facebook page to exonerate Bent Meyer and Paul Petry while a long time member is telling people to evacuate Mars Hill”

    Dee: “See this post by Warren Throckmorton”:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/03/20/more-mars-hill-church-grievances-former-member-calls-for-evacuation/

    ___
    Reference: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/03/19/is-cbmw-the-bellwether-for-the-complementarian-movement/#comment-136126

  166. @ BD:

    yes, we should question their tax exempt status. since it's all about money, let them have as much $$$ as they want and pay taxes on it. any suggestions on how to bring this case before IRS?