“Let all you do be done in love…”

There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus (chuckle)>b>, and by God’s grace, it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done. — Mark Driscoll

http://youtu.be/BfTmgPhmlto
.

I bet the Titanic video says nothing of the women who gave their lives willingly, or the many men who did not give it willingly but were forcibly kept from lifeboats by panicky male crew members who sent down lifeboats half-empty, or the men who stupidly chose to go full speed ahead in iceberg waters…
http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/did-patriarchy-sink-the-titanic/

Sounds a lot like the Promise Keepers 2013 Conference for (He)men, “Awakening the Warrior”

http://www.promisekeepers.org/

this documentary tells the true story of the Titanic

…as opposed to the godless librul weenie version the rest of us know. : P

@ Retha:

If I’m not mistaken, there was also a man who was not allowed to go into a lifeboat with his young son, even though the boy would be orphaned by this action. Women and children first, y’all. Common sense be damned. Open doors for women and all society’s problems will be solved.

Of course they’re merchandising manhood…because according to Mark Driscoll in the video…

Get the young men, you get families, the women, the children, the MONEY,…EVERYTHING! You don’t get the young men, you get NOTHING!

@ Alex:

So when will you be targeting Joyce Meyer, Beth Moore (or Rachel Held Evans if you dare) and othets who continue to feed heretical pop-theopsychology to their predominantly female audiences?

I agree, at least about Meyer and Moore (I’ve only read a few posts by Evans so I have to claim ignorance there). We have a family friend who is really into Beth Moore and “pop-theopsychology” is a pretty good descriptor for most of the stuff she reposts and quotes. “Name it and claim it” word of faith stuff seems to be popular here too, though that might come more from Meyer (?).

@ jack:I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks that. He strikes me as very angry and hung up on sex. Its scary how much he reminds me of my dad, before he left my mom and ‘came out’.

@ dee:
Naughty naughty Dee. You didn’t pay attention to what I said. Here it is again,

“I mean your work on one side with the kinds of errant men is great but it seems quite silent on the other on the whole.”

Not absolutely silent and I based it “one the whole” meaning the imbalance is very notable.

Details, details. But hey, who’s counting when there are so many bad men out there and the audience is by majority, women. What was that you were saying about Driscoll pandering?

While analyzing and scrutinizing the doctrines/teachings Evans (or any others) might give you the cold sweats, as someone pledged to this kind of protective ministry, it appears you would give yourself a pass here for a rather unwarranted reason, it is too daunting or something.

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

So when will you be targeting Joyce Meyer, Beth Moore (or Racheld Held Evand if you dare) and othets who continue to feed heretical pop-theopsychology to their predominantly female audiences?

Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer are old news and enjoying their mountains of cash from selling Jesus. Rachel Held Evans has a large male following, too. Ever read comments?

So not sure the slipper fits in this case. Besides, I have never seen any of them put on an “Act like Women” conference specifically devoted to pink teaching. :o)

Evans’ book, A Year of Biblical Womanhood” was a joke, academically and theologically if not rationally. She was blatantly dishonest with regard to the views of those with whom she holds objections.

If one of your favored male subjects of scrutiny published a work this bad and inconsistent, you would have been all over it like mustard on a hot dog.

‘Nuff said. Driscoll seems to be a rather easy target. It does get the choir singing, though.

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

@ dee:
dee, I was addressing those who might comment but have not done their due diligence, not the ones that have. As for “rule making”, that is up to each person’s conscience but as a rule, no reading or very selective reading makes, as most academicians would tell you, for someone who is ill-informed and has not done their homework.

Alex, I first heard of DRiscoll when Donald Miller described him as the cussing pastor in Blue Like Jazz. years ago.

Been following his trajectory ever since. But I will tell you there are certain sermons (series) that would have been enough for me to know there is a HUGE problem. Also Joyful Exiles is quite interesting. And some warning sites that have popped up over the years going through behavioral events and teaching. But from listening, reading his site, listening to videos, he is like a cultural phenomenon.

To me, it is not really about Driscoll (Charlatans everywhere these days) that much but what attracts people to him. That to me would be a very interesting sociological study.

What sort of a person would be attracted to a pastor who teaches sodomy in marriage? What sort of a person would sit and listen while his pastor relates I detail visions of other people having sex even down to describing the curtains in the room.

It really would make an interesting sociological study.

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

BTW, I hope comments reflect that they have done their due diligence and either read or listened to a fair amount of Driscoll (and company) on the matter in order to at least have a basis for a personal opinion outside of what is reported that he said or selective bits and pieces offered.

Dude. I’m betting there’s a lot of us here who have done plenty of this. I spent years listening to his podcasts, and it took a LONG time for me to finally get that in spite of his preaching ability he has real problems. So, kindly don’t make silly assumptions, ‘kay? And I’ll try not to assume you’re being condescending.

Anon 1 wrote:

Besides, I have never seen any of them put on an “Act like Women” conference specifically devoted to pink teaching.

Oooh. Feeling kinda nauseous here….of course, being a lady preacher in the presence of guys who believe that women can’t be called by God tends to do that sometimes. And don’t forget, they believe in speaking to the MEN, who will BRING their women and children with them. They don’t feel like they have to speak to us. (should I be grateful?)

Joy Huff wrote:

How many young christian women actually put up with being subjugated, the way Driscoll and others teach, today? How are young married men going to win over their wives to this life style? The young woman I know aren’t like this. It could be a hard sell in their world.

That’s what the Pearl method is for.
Beaten into Submission from birth.

dee wrote:

@ Alex Guggenheim: Do me a favor and do some searches on our site. we have documented a boat load of stuff Driscoll has said and even did one full post filled with Drisollese.

Driscoll fanboy?

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

@ dee:
Naughty naughty Dee. You didn’t pay attention to what I said. Here it is again,

Driscoll fanboy.

Striking back with the oh-so-polite “You didn’t pay attention…” and the gaslight switch of “No, this is what I REALLY said, but You Are Too Ignorant and Have An AGENDA…” (Oh-so-polite pat pat pat on your pretty little airhead.)

Growing up with a psychological abuser/sociopath teaches you to recognize such things.

@ Alex Guggenheim:
Alex must be a teacher. “Tsk tsk children! Now do your homework and remember I know the Wikipedia entries by heart.”

TedS. wrote:

It could be credibly argued that books like A Year of Biblical Womanhood cause many who are appalled by her twisting of scriptures to enter the camp of Driscoll for “balance.”

It could also be credibly argued that people like Driscoll&McDonald cause many who are appalled by their twisting of scripture to leap straight over Evans and land with relief in the atheist camp, for “balance”.

Alex, here’s the difference as I see it between Driscoll, MacDonald, et al and Meyers, Evans, Moore, etc. I don’t hear women marginalizing men. I’ve not heard any female teacher/preacher diminish the male “personhood” by elevating themselves to a position of importance to which the other is not entitled.

Big difference!

@ Mara:
I read the link you posted, it reminds me of the way I was counciled in my marriage at CLC about 10 years ago. I was pretty much to blame. Maybe these guys blame women because they are getting away with it. And they do seem to be getting away with it. We need to do all we can to shine a light on this bullying.

@ Joy Huff:

Yep, Driscoll, McDonald, CLC, Sovereign Grace etc.

They hold themselves up as the great spiritual superiors/authorities when all they spout is Adamic garbage like the first male.

Genesis 3:12 The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”

They are being men, all right. Fallen, fleshly, and walking squarely in the footsteps of Adam. They are not qualified to teach other men how to be like Jesus because they are NOT like Jesus. They are like Adam. And their manhood conferences idolize the fallen man rather than the second Adam, Jesus, who can to set things right.

I’m not doubting their salvation or sincerity. But I am greatly doubting their understanding of what being an actual follower of Christ means.

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

So unicorn you are only offended with head patting if the wrong person does it.

No, he is simply calling out your tactics. Tactics that he has become quite familiar with.

Come here and make your arguments. No one here fears them. Leave you dismissive attitude at the door. We all see through them and they weaken your arguments rather than strengthen them.

Mara wrote:

MARK DRISCOLL IS NOT A MAN. HE IS A BOY, AN ADOLESCENT PLAYING AT MANHOOD.

Whose idea of Being a Man is “I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!”

I keep wondering if he was a Beta to Omega male in high school, who found a way (through Christianese Celebrity) to become the Alpha Male for once (with Divine Right!) and is just throwing his weight around. “I’LL SHOW YOU! I’LL SHOW YOU!”

Patrice wrote:

TedS. wrote:
It could be credibly argued that books like A Year of Biblical Womanhood cause many who are appalled by her twisting of scriptures to enter the camp of Driscoll for “balance.”

It could also be credibly argued that people like Driscoll&McDonald cause many who are appalled by their twisting of scripture to leap straight over Evans and land with relief in the atheist camp, for “balance”.

Thanks Patrice, you got there first!

Although I’d like to put out there to Alex that I consider Evans a far better scholar than Driscoll will ever be – that Esther debacle will live in my mind forever – you could at least have a dialogue with Evans about what you disagreed with & why. I have read her blog for a few years now & I massively appreciate her efforts to call out various teachers & preachers for bullying. Are you absolutely sure thst you don’t take her seriously because of issues of theology, rather than scholarship…i.e. you disagree with her theology so the scholarship that got her there, rather than to where you are, must be wrong?

Alex,

Again with the “you haven’t been paying attention” tactic.

Please argue the issues. Stop gas lighting, stop patronizing, stop deflecting, stop evading

Tell us what is wrong with our take on Driscoll and McDonald or go home.

I like to argue issues.
Seeing who is better at worthless tactics accomplishes nothing nor is sporting.

I am paying attention.

What I see so far is a guy trying to stir things up with shallow tactics.

Surprise me with a comment of substance. I like being surprised.
I like a good debate.

I hate wasting time with shallow arguers who don’t have a leg to stand on.

I’m waiting.

Surprise me.

I dare you.

Joan wrote:

I read about that male University of Toronto professor who bragged that he only taught male, heterosexual authors and it struck me how neo-macho dudes are every bit as constricted by identity politics as any campus leftist. It must be so exhausting, constantly having to prove your bonafides, worrying whether liking a certain book will send the wrong message about you.

Joan, I’m already a lost cause:
* Furry fan, which sends wrong messages called “bestiality” (and “uber homsoexual” thanks to the performance of some of the fandom’s higher-profile founders). Took an email harassment campaign on the former subject some years ago.
* And Brony; I have heard the drive-time radio coverage of Bronies, the “These grown MEN are into a Cartoon for SIX YEAR OLD GIRLS!” immediately followed by the stage whisper of “pedophiles…”.

@ Mara:
Well Mara you didn’t pay attention or else you would not have accused me of a tactic you claim was mine when it was dee’s who used it as a device in responding to me and then I to her.

So either you own an acknowledgment and apology or you are a deliberate liar avoiding the truth. Why would I continue a discussion with you.

I do find much of this amusing, however.

The claimed purveyors of fairness and honesty can’t even bring themselves to acknowledge simple oversights…and you want people to pay attention to you on more serious matters?

When people claim they want to argue issues but become preoccupied with someone’s tactic which isn’t even their in the first place and then cannot admit their error when caught, that speaks for itself.

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

So whether or not some marginalizes the other gender is the criterion for determining the damage others? They all damage integral theogy thus damaging believers in their own special way.

I don’t quite see it that way, Alex. The teachings that marginalize women are directly intended toward that end. Those of Meyers, Evans, Moore albeit erroneous on some level are directed toward edifying, encouraging, strengthening the hearers. The intent is the difference.

Alex- I suppose the question is whether it is an oversight? Or whether Dee & Debs have been concentrating on the larger, rather than the smaller issues? No-one who regularly reads here believes that the only ones getting it wrong are men. There are some amazing examples of repeat offenders they have focused on, for just those reasons, rather than gender. If a woman preacher was being as outrageous as any one of those guys they’d get plenty of press here. Why not suggest some topics to help bring balance, if you perceive it as lacking? I’m pretty sure D & D are equal opportunity criticisers.

I once remember being amazed when a friend called off a discussion about God he was having with a very enthusiastic guy. When I asked why, he told me that the other guy just wanted to argue, he didn’t want to know.

@ Mara:
Yes, these guys blame women, I’ve thought for a long time now that this is just plain worldliness, and sinfulness, that they are acting out.

@ Joy Huff:

Joy, here is one of my favorite passages in the Bible.

Psalms 50
16 But to the wicked God says,
“What right have you to tell of My statutes
And to take My covenant in your mouth?
17 “For you hate discipline,
And you cast My words behind you.
18 “When you see a thief, you [g]are pleased with him,
And you associate with adulterers.
19 “You let your mouth loose in evil
And your tongue frames deceit.
20 “You sit and speak against your brother;
You slander your own mother’s son.
21 “These things you have done and I kept silence;
You thought that I was just like you;
I will reprove you and state the case in order before your eyes.

Actually, It’s verse 21 that is my favorite.

It illustrates the weakness in people to believe that whatever they think is okay must be okay because they think that God thinks the way they do.

They (okay we all) often forget that His ways are higher than ours.

Men defraud women of their position in Christ and even justice in dealing with men because they thing God thinks about women the way men do.

I say this with fear and trembling.
It is something WE ALL have to watch out for. We have to all keep going back to God and the Cross and ask God how he views things.
I just think it’s harder for those in authority. They think they must be in authority because they are somehow “better”. Then it’s easy for them to think that they understand God better.

@ dee:
I need to learn to Reply w/Quote, but I can’t figure it out. You said. So while we oldies putter along trying to define gender roles, this next group are asking different questions all togeather. That’s what I see, too. My two daughters-in-law are wonderful women, I love and respect them, but if my sons came along and said “woman obey me” or anthing like that,I think they would be picking themselves up off the floor(sons). 🙂

This reminds me, one of those sons, we he was about 3 years old, loved to stand in front of the TV, untill everyone reacted to him. I got to the point where I said “lets just ignore him” so we did and after a while he stopped. This might be something to to apply in response to some posts that may be annoying:-).

dee wrote:

Hmmm….James MacDonald says we need to be called out of a life that is self-serving. I wonder how that applies to gambling and expensive houses…

I laughed so hard. I don’t understand how people can be so blind.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

* And Brony

fwiw, My Little Pony, Friendship is Magic is one of the best written television shows in history. Regardless of intended audience, it was truly a work of excellence.

Two things:

Did that old guy with the chin hair actually use “real men” and “endangered species” in the same sentence? Now why would he do that? We have lots of real men around here where I live. Either the old guy is directly distorting the truth, or else he rarely comes into contact with real men, I suppose, because real men don’t flock to his church. Or else, maybe he would not actually know a real man if he met one.

Every time I look at some of these guys I am reminded that leather gets grimy and greasy and dries and cracks and is stiff and uncomfortable. And facial hair itches. So does a real man have to neglect personal hygiene in pursuit of swagger and ballyhoo? Pitiful.

The other thing is: when these flocks of men go off by themselves to manly men conferences, what do they do in their spare time? Does anybody have a record of what economic impact these gatherings have on the barely legal or even illegal after hours darker aspects of the cities where they meet? What better way to hide activities you would not do in your home town, or want the family to know about, than to go to a “christian” conference on manliness.

Hey, you want to be a real man? Hold a job. build a business, keep your family together, fight a war, manage a budget, stay in school, serve on the city council, visit the old folks home, jerk a knot in your teenager, cut some of your old buddies loose, cut the grass, get a flu shot, tell your wife she is still hot, teach a kid to read, sit up all night in the hospital with a dying friend, etc.

But it is not about leather or hair or tattoos-for-Jesus.

I agree with the opinion that Mark Driscoll and others like him have stunted brains regarding gender.

They are twisting the scripture of 1Corinthians to say Be a Man. Taken in context with a simple study of the original word used for man says to anyone male or female to ACT like strong man. If you want to add words to the Bible, you could better add Act like a real person, not a mouse. Paul even says it in the context of submitting to ALL who are laboring with him. So you could add words like act like a man and submit to Priscilla. But you can’t twist Paul’s words to say that it says BE a man. A woman can just as well ‘man up’ when pushing out a baby. I just watched WWZ the movie and Brad Pitt has to tell a woman to ‘gut up!’. Paul means it like that.

@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

Just the fact that Lauren Faust and Tara Strong joined the project was enough to make me give the show a shot. Been borrowing season 1 for a while now and have been enjoying the series.

At the bottom of the “Conference Gear” page is a small photo of Mark Driscoll, and about four squares over is a photo of a bus with the text “Fill the Bus.”

That is all kinds of ironic and strange, if you will recall this:
Mark Driscoll – There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus, and Driscoll thinks that is great.

Based on that audio, Driscoll thinks the more people he kicks out, ostracizes, from his church, to get things done 100% his way, the better. So of course that bus probably needs to be filled again.

From the OP (original post),

I am so tired of Christians who want to teach young men how to be ‘real men’ for a price. Vision Forum markets its DVD, etc., and the Driscoll/MacDonald ‘tribe’ charges over $100 per person to attend a two-day event

Me too.

But I feel that way about preachers selling merchandise for or about anything. The TV preachers are pretty bad about this, with selling books and DVDs.

Jim Bakker has his own show again, where he is selling dried blueberries to people that they can eat when the Anti-Christ rules America and closes all the Kroger’s.

I mentioned it before on an older thread, but it grates on my nerves the way preachers/churches commercialize Christianity, especially when the preacher claims his books explain something – a concept – that is already in the Bible.

If your concept in the Bible, I can read it there for free for myself, I don’t need to buy your $15 – $80 book/ DVD package that explains it.

Even cheesier are the T-shirt, plaques, ball caps, etc, not just from churches/ preachers, but stuff like Christian films do the same thing.

When the church-produced “Courageous” movie was released, all sorts of Courageous-related cheese was sold along with it, including $50-$60 wooden plaques with the movie’s pledge thing written on it for people to hang in their homes. 🙄

I’m still trying to watch the videos that Deb and Dee posted, but the top one is taking forever to download.

Victorious wrote:

Promise Keepers 2013 Conference for (He)men, “Awakening the Warrior”

😆 Promise Keepers 2013 Conference for (He)men, “Awakening the Warrior” 😆 Oh geeze!

Okay, I’ll awaken my inner warrior, like Xena Warrior Princess. Women can be warriors too. (The Old Testament mentions Deborah and Jael, specifically.)

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

So when will you be targeting Joyce Meyer, Beth Moore (or Racheld Held Evand if you dare) and othets who continue to feed heretical pop-theopsychology to their predominantly female audiences?

I think this blog took Moore to task a long time ago for her something.

Maybe one reason for the focus on the males teaching this stuff is that I don’t see as many females harping on “manhood,” “how to be a man,” and trying to define for other people what “biblical manhood” is.

About the only time we see women yakking about “womanhood” is vis a vis the male headed groups pushing this stuff, such as “Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.”

As to the rest of the names in your list. I don’t agree with most of Joyce Meyer’s teachings (she is Word of Faith), and I agree with RHE on a few things, but not all.

Just because someone spends more time on a blog pointing out areas of disagreement with one topic, or segment of Christian culture, does not necessarily mean they’re hunky dory with all the rest.

I’m not sure where you, Alex G, stand on gender roles and what not, but I always find it irritating when a Christian male harps on the errors being taught by female preachers and mentions over and over they are FEMALE, since they say female preachers are not permitted in the Bible, yet even as they criticize theological error by male preachers (such as Benny Hinn or whomever), they don’t stop to point out the guy’s gender.

As much as I enjoy the “Fighting for the Faith” podcast, how it grates on my nerves when the anti-female preacher host (who is a man) only points out the gender of the one he is critiquing if it’s a female.

I am using him as an example, but I see other male Christians do the same thing.

Why not just judge their sermons on its own merits and leave the gender out of it?

The male host I’m speaking of never mentions that Heath Mooneyham is a man when he critiques Mooneyham’s dodgy sermons.

The male podcast host never mentions Driscoll’s gender when critiquing Driscoll sermons, or any of the other male preachers he critiques.

It’s like the male host (and males such as him) think maleness in and of itself makes a male immune from teaching or believing in theological/doctrinal error, but it does not.

I think this goes back to their warped view that women are supposedly more easily deceived than men, since Eve ate the forbidden fruit. Men have been teaching error since the start of Christianity, when Paul had to confront Peter to his face for supporting error.

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

That is certainly expected if the numbers are by majority, men, but it serves as no excuse for you to excuse yourself from due diligence with notable female teachers of errant and confusing doctrine.

It’s their blog; they can focus on whatever they wish to focus on.

If you are so keen on pointing out error taught by female leaders, you can set up your own blog and blog away. (You can start a blog for free.)

Since women are not given much voice in Christian circles – many churches and Christian groups bar women from preaching, teaching, leading – I think it only fitting that the males get the brunt of criticism.

There are other sites, Christian apologetic sites, that expose things such as WoF heresy, and you can find many articles about female teachers and leaders examined on their sites.

On occasion, I post at RHE’s blog, and I sometimes speak up and disagree with her or her readers. You can do the same thing. You can post comments on RHE’s blog if she says something you disagree with. As long as you keep it respectful, she will allow those sorts of posts on her blog.

MacDonald talking about doctrine is a joke when I recall how he and Driscoll practically drooled all over T.D. Jakes when the latter visited their Elephant Room show. Driscoll could hardly believe it when Jakes deigned to have dinner with him. In the presence of a more “powerful” male, they folded, barely scratching the surface of Jakes’ trinitarian heresy, and not mentioning at all his health and wealth “gospel.” The same with John Piper hosting Rick Warren. I’ll begin to see them as real men when they show half the courage in confronting false or compromising teachers that Charles Spurgeon did when he engaged them in his time.

@ Alex Guggenheim: Alex, you seem to be in full attack mode whenever you comment here, ditto for other blogs (I’ve seen recent comments by you at iMonk).

I think you come here *looking* to get into flamer wars, and nobody’s obliging you.

It would be cool if you could chill out a bit and just read and *converse* with people here, but at this point, it doesn’t seem to be your goal.

Pax,
numo

I’m down the street from Copps Coliseum, and I can’t believe they could get 19 000 people in there, although they might have come close when KISS played there… I heard this promoted from the pulpit and it bothered but did not surprise me. when the guy who was promoting it first arrived, the first thing I saw him do was cause pain to a parishoner who stood in the way of his ‘vision.’

Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

and have studied martial arts for years.

I wish you’d write a post or essay on MMA, because you have the know-how to do it. As an observer (very interested in tai chi and some of the various Chinese weapons practices – especially straight sword), it seems to me that deliberately hurting people is the absolute antithesis of what true martial arts are about.

MMA seems like a real-life version of “The Fight Club” to me, and I wish the words “martial arts” were NOT in its name.

@ Daisy:
Yes! And the Proverbs 31 passage uses the same word for finding a virtuous woman as the Bible does to describe Gideon, man of valor same as woman of valor. The biased writers just couldn’t bring themselves to describe a strong woman as desirable.
But then again John Piper likes ’em, he just warns that the intimacy from that attraction might be rough and without nice walks on the beach first.

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

Not absolutely silent and I based it “one the whole” meaning the imbalance is very notable.
Details, details. But hey, who’s counting when there are so many bad men out there and the audience is by majority, women. What was that you were saying about Driscoll pandering?

I would love to count. Name some women who have big followings besides Moore and Meyer. Evans is pretty much a blogger/entertainment and has a large male following.

And I have always been a bit astonished at how many men comment here. Since surf alot on YRR pastor blogs and their movement sites, there are few women commenting there. Considering what I have seen, the amount of men who comment here is really astonishing to.

Guess it is all in how one looks at it and their experiences.

So give us some big female names who have masses of young women following them. I would love to know about them. Give us the female eqivalent to Driscoll. Or the female Mahaney. Female Mohler?

@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:

I watch lots of Christian networks, even though I disagree with about 95% of the content I hear/see, and based on the Christian blogs and sites I visit, I don’t know of too many big name female Christian leaders/ teachers.

Off the top of my head, the big ones are Beth Moore and Joyce Meyer; Paula White is kinda sorta big, but doesn’t seem to be as popular as the first two ladies.

There’s a blond Aussie woman who is sometimes a guest on Christian shows such as “Life Today.” She’s talked about her childhood abuse and how she helps kids stuck in child trafficking.

There’s an older single Christian lady who is a singer who gets interviewed on that same show on occasion. Kathy Troccoli.

There’s the ex host of 700 Club, who has a Scottish accent. She’s interviewed every so often on these shows, and goes on conference circuits for women.

Most of the other women, when they are allowed to speak during church shows, are the wives – such as John Hagee’s wife, she does the annual Mother’s Day speech thing.

There’s Taffi Dollar (wife of preacher who is allowed to address the church’s congregation/TV show) every so often.

Anne Graham, daughter of Billy Graham, occasionally cranks out a book or interview.

TBN owner Paul Crouch Sr wife, Jann. She sometimes gets her own 30 minute spots on TBN.

The only other major figure (female) I can think of is that Charismatic lady who had her own show or something in the 1970s or so. She gets referenced a lot on TBN, by WoF males with approval. Kathryn Kuhlman.

Junita Bynum.

After Billy Joe Daugherty died a few years ago, his wife took over preaching at their church (Tulsa, Okla). Their church has a weekly TV show.

There really aren’t too many hugely, influential female figures in Christendom, not like the male preachers who have the big selling books, huge memberships, etc.

dee wrote:

i have said this before and will say it again,I believe that Driscolll, and MacDonald, are one step away from a serious personal crisis and people better keep a sharp eye on them.

I figured long ago that Driscoll’s Christian Celebrity career was going to end in some sort of sex scandal. Don’t know much about MacDonald, though.

WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:

Does … Paula White not count?

I am sure she “counts” but not sure how. Does she have a church planting network training thousands of little Paula Whites on her personal doctrinal interpretations starting churches all over the place? What is her following? I know little about her.

Anyone know of any women who are the President of a seminary?

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

If there were a Driscoll sex scandal who would know if the other party stayed silent? He got rid of most of his elders. Down to 3 yes men now, I think?

I do wonder about his violent tendencies. That might be where it ends up. As far as I am concerned he has already imploded it is just that not enough people care. I read recently they are no longer publishing numbers. I know that is always a sign they are dwindling. Now, it takes a while for the high numbers to dwindle. But keep in mind for a mega church losing a few thousand is a disaster financially.

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

I mean your work on one side with the kinds of errant men is great but it seems quite silent on the other on the whole.

First, as has already been pointed out, TWW hasn’t been silent on the other side.

Second, your whole complaint seems to be that TWW doesn’t meet some male/female topic ratio you have in mind. But when the topic is spiritual abuse and gospels of oppression and harm being done to people in the name of God, and the overwhelming majority of these ‘ministers’ are male, you’re going to end up with more men as subjects than women- simple math.

Garland wrote:

For the record, copyright does not apply to names or titles of works (though such can be trademarked). So I’m not sure what’s up with that.

The only exceptions I’ve heard attempted were by fanboy amateurs who did NOT understand copyright and thought it meant that “*I* Came Up With It, IT’S MINE MINE MINE! ALL OF IT!” I had to deal with one years ago when a joint shared-universe writing project went sour. (He dithered about what a Great Author he was — you can see the warning sign — I actually wrote and got some fanzine pubs, and he called Copyright Jihad on me. Bad Craziness.)

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Some years ago, I remember an online essay where some preacher who was also a retired MMA cage fighter (after his third concussion he figured he’d quit while he was still ahead) did an analysis of Driscoll’s MMA “thing”.

This is what you’re talking about. I’m acquainted with Matt, he’s a very nice guy.
http://theotherjournal.com/2011/06/28/the-confessions-of-a-cage-fighter-masculinity-misogyny-and-the-fear-of-losing-control/

Darcyjo wrote:

This is what you’re talking about. I’m acquainted with Matt, he’s a very nice guy.
http://theotherjournal.com/2011/06/28/the-confessions-of-a-cage-fighter-masculinity-misogyny-and-the-fear-of-losing-control/

THAT’S THE ONE!

@ Daisy:
Don’t forget Gail Riplinger…

Ok, I may have spent too much time submerged in fundamentalist Baptist purgatory in the past. Fundies are like other cultic subcultures. They think their leaders are hot stuff, but the rest of the world hasn’t heard of them. It comforts me that, when I get outside of my conservative evangelical bubble, it’s rare that I find a Christian who’s heard of Driscoll et. al.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

I just looked it up, and that Courageous plaque is still for sale on several sites.

It’s originally over $80 on one site, but they have placed it on sale for around $40.

There’s even a video off to the right of that page I linked to about the plaque, showing some guy with his family hanging it up. 🙄 I just watched that video. It has scenes from the movie and dramatic music.

I wish Christians would stop commercializing everything so much. It makes the whole faith look cheap.

If you’re going to do a Christian film or book, fine, but please, lay off the tie in merchandise, such as ball caps, T shirts with the film’s logo, etc.

IMO, the only exception for this would be Christian kiddie films. I can see a kid wanting a stuffed Aslan lion toy doll, or what not. But adults don’t really need the plaques and posters.

@ Beakerj:
I agree. I like Rachel Held Evans. Her scholarship is much more solid than, for eg, John Piper’s. And Piper is better than Driscoll/MacDonald. All these guys, however, live in the Masculine Mystique Mylar Hot-Air Balloon, and they float.

I’d like to see them brought back down to earth.

Daisy wrote:

You can have correct doctrine all day long, but if you are also treating other people like trash consistently, it really makes me wonder if the faith is so true after all, or worth while.

Yes. I am fairly sure that you will end up agnostic if you look at organized Christianity to prove/disprove a loving god. I would have done so. I hope that doesn’t happen for you, Daisy.

God is amazing and completely apart from much that goes on in His/Her name. I fear for these people because when things are finally sorted out, they are going to be in deep %^#* for so cheaply misusing God.

Just a random thought:

Women are only kept out of the pulpit in SOME denominations. Women only fair poorly in SOME seminaries.

Now why on earth, if one is female, would one pass by the seminaries and denominations that welcome you, choose one that doesn’t, and then cry foul?

Sort of the same as choosing a Baptist church and then crying foul that they don’t celebrate the Mass.

@ linda:

I write from a Southern Baptist and evangelical background, and I am familiar with fundies, all of whom are not generally female friendly.

@ numo:
Just for kicks, I went to RHE’s website, and writer/speaker is exactly how she describes herself. I appreciate her writings as well.

JeffT wrote:

Whenever I see a Driscoll video I see him as a combination of Biff in Back to the Future and Johnny “Sweep the Leg” Lawrence in Karate Kid

This made me laugh! Driscoll is a total ’80s teen movie faux-tough guy. It’s amazing that he leads a church when he comes across like he’d rather be taking down Ralph Macchio in the big tournament (by fighting dirty, of course).

Can someone send Mr. Miyagi to Mars Hill?

Anon 1 wrote:

http://www.pastormelissascott.com/

Anyone know anything about her? I have heard a short clip of here teaching where she was exegeting the Hebrew in a passage. Have no idea what her views are.

Anon1 — Melissa Scott is the widow of Gene Scott. You can check out Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Scott. Here as well: http://www.drgenescott.org/

numo wrote:

As an observer…it seems to me that deliberately hurting people is the absolute antithesis of what true martial arts are about.

Yes, that is a very good observation. MMA and other “beat you to a bloody pulp” activities flies in the face of all the martial training I have received.

dee wrote:

let me channel Johnny Cash “You’ve been reading my mail.”

Johnny Cash? I thought those words were from Kris Kristoffersen’s “To beat the devil”?

well, depends on how “martial” the martial art really is. All martial arts have as their ultimate goal killing people. That’s why they’re called martial arts in terms of history and origin. Those high kicks were developed to counter adversaries who had the advantage of being on horseback. Kick them off the steed and the battle is literally leveled. So a lot depends on what is meant by MA and how it’s approached.

Not that the critique of Driscoll’s understanding (such as it is) of martial arts isn’t worth repeating. Comparable levels of physical discipline could be found in, say, ballet, right? 🙂 Rite of Spring turned 100 this year and I couldn’t afford to hit any centennial stagings.

“…remember food, housing, transportation and conference gear are (in all likelihood) NOT included.”

Well, real men sleep on the ground under the stars and ride in on a horse.

@ WenatcheeTheHatchet: Have you ever practiced any of the martial arts? They really have a great deal to do with finesse, controlled movement and the redirection of energy (by which I mean redirecting an opponent’s attacking force away from oneself and back onto the opponent), as well as with blocking. Combat on horseback or as an infantry soldier is *not* the same thing as what’s meant to be achieved in the classic Chinese martial arts (includes various forms of tai chi, btw).

I don’t know enough about Japanese or Korean martial arts to be able to comment on those.

Anon 1 wrote:

http://www.pastormelissascott.com/
Anyone know anything about her? I have heard a short clip of here teaching where she was exegeting the Hebrew in a passage. Have no idea what her views are.
Maybe we can add her in for Alex’s quota?

She’s Dr. Gene Scott’s widow…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3X-GtEnjME

Alex Guggenheim wrote:

Evans’ book, A Year of Biblical Womanhood” was a joke, academically and theologically if not rationally. She was blatantly dishonest with regard to the views of those with whom she holds objections.
So, care to quote the sections you are referring to that are blatantly dishonest? She quotes Piper directly, so it is hard to argue she is dishonest when she in fact quotes him, then comments on his own writings.

Kathy Keller (Tim’s wife) conveniently had an article posted (they are New Yorkers remember) the day the hurricane struck, also Rachel’s book release date, that I read before I read her book. I was given a very bad impression of the book, and commenters later admitted they had not read her book before commenting. I read her book looking for the problems Keller critiqued and couldn’t find them, not ONE! It surprised me how dishonest that book review was, I wasn’t aware of it until I read Rachel’s book.

So, honestly, cite the (or some) of the passages in Rachel’s book that are ‘blatantly dishonest’, because I missed them while looking for them.

Otherwise, apologize for spreading lies about her book and admit you didn’t read it.

I’d also like to add that TWW has, of course, critiqued Nancy Leigh DeMoss and Mary Kassian. And someone remind me if the Botkin sisters have been “officially” mentioned here? Though all these women could easily be interpreted as mouthpieces for men instead of teachers in their own right.

@ Steve Scott:

Well, real men sleep on the ground under the stars and ride in on a horse.

…and are swift as a coursing river; with all the force of a great typhoon; with all the strength of a raging fire; and are mysterious as the dark side of the moon!

Of course these same guys later infiltrate the emperor’s palace by crossdressing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSS5dEeMX64

Steve Scott wrote:

Well, real men sleep on the ground under the stars and ride in on a horse.

Well, seriously, some of them actually do just that.

But here is the thing. The folks who are into camping and backpacking and even extreme wilderness survival are not going around threatening to beat people up.

The NRA people and the high tech bow hunters and the people who are into competitive sharpshooter skills are not threatening to harm the populace.

The martial arts people (and one of my granddaughters is a black belt in TaeKwonDo) are not a menace to society but are, rather, athletes, some at the Olympic level. Side comment: good for you Dr Fundystan et al.

So what the blip do these belligerent so-called christians, alleged followers of the “real man” who set his face toward Jerusalem to walk straight into his own death think they are doing? It looks like the bluster and posturing that sometimes betray an inner fear, as when the weaker species in nature use display and threat against a stronger opponent. However, when fear is not due to a real and immediate threat but is rather a personality/character trait, I believe we call that cowardice. And cowardice is the life blood of some bullies, and that is surely what it looks like.

Steve Scott wrote:

“…remember food, housing, transportation and conference gear are (in all likelihood) NOT included.”

Well, real men sleep on the ground under the stars and ride in on a horse.

Is this the origin of the expression “You and the horse you rode in on!”?

Or should it be an application with these guys?

Daisy wrote:

There’s even a video off to the right of that page I linked to about the plaque, showing some guy with his family hanging it up. 🙄 I just watched that video. It has scenes from the movie and dramatic music.

Dramatic music and all?
Now that’s just double-cheezy.
Please tell me that was a fanboy production and not an official plug.

Val wrote:

esp. on the Song of Songs (and turing the verse about the beloved thinking her lover tasted sweet to a command for wives to give their husbands oral sex was so stupid I just about threw the computer across the room)

How much ya wanna bet though that if the oral eroticism went the other way he’d cherry pick stuff out of Leviticus, spin it, and try to show how it’s somehow unclean and forbidden?

Let’s just face it and call it out for what it is, women have a primal power that these guys fear and loathe.

Hester wrote:

I’d also like to add that TWW has, of course, critiqued Nancy Leigh DeMoss and Mary Kassian. And someone remind me if the Botkin sisters have been “officially” mentioned here? Though all these women could easily be interpreted as mouthpieces for men instead of teachers in their own right.

Awwww Hester…..after seeing all the young people being scooped up by the Driscoll Satellite here in my town you are such a breath of fresh hope for your generation IMO.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

Dramatic music and all?
Now that’s just double-cheezy.
Please tell me that was a fanboy production and not an official plug.

It appears professionally made.

Sorry I left the link out of my original post.

The video is on the right hand side of this page, under the “Videos about this item” heading (you can see a guy in a red shirt hanging the plaque up on the wall in the video’s preview image, while his 1954 Nuclear Family looks on approvingly):

Courageous – The Resolution FOR MEN – 14×24 Personalized Framed Print with Family Picture

It contains bold, large text slamming on the screen with overly dramatic music.

Kind of like those hokey local news reports where the graphic artist over- dramatizes weather updates…

Where there’s an every day rain shower coming up, but they put “DEADLY WEATHER!!!” in all caps on the screen with overblown graphics of large lightning flashes, etc.

@ TedS.:
I used to listen to Milissa Scott years ago, I think she is brilliant. Her problem is her past. But if Mahaney and others like him can have a following after their pasts, so can she.

Muff Potter wrote:

Let’s just face it and call it out for what it is, women have a primal power that these guys fear and loathe.

I think this is really the truth. The power women have over men is real and some men could resent that.

@ Joan:

Actually, he teaches Truman Capote and Virginia Wolfe….
As a woman, I can understand his point of view: he teaches better when he teaches the books he loves. I feel the same way and most books I “love to teach” are written by men. Well, except “To Kill A Mockingbird”.
Why should he teach a book he is not passionate about just because it allows someone to check of the box “woman author”.

@ muzjik: But he sure sounds prejudiced…

@ numo: I have to admit that I’m amused by his characterization of Chekhov and Tolstoy as He-Men (Chekhov especially). Tolstoy was a terrible womanizer when he was young, but apart from that, I jsut don’t get this.

F. Scott Fitzgerald has never struck me as being notably macho, either.

Steve D, it’s very handy for webpages generally but I’ve never heard that it can be used to find pulled audio files before. Can it even do that?

@ WenatcheeTheHatchet:

can’t assist on the Scotland thing, but here he is standing on someone’s grave at Arlington National Cemetery talking about men “having sex with their wives at least once a day”. This is what the church is tasked with concerning their teaching priorities. And perhaps this will be the topic of a break-out session at this Act Like Men conference.

http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-43007-daily-sex-with-pastor-mark

makes me want to puke

Muff Potter, don’t make the bet, you’d lose money on it. Never mind the SOS sermons, the boot camps he did for mens’ training events got even more detailed.

WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:

Muff Potter, don’t make the bet, you’d lose money on it. Never mind the SOS sermons, the boot camps he did for mens’ training events got even more detailed.

yeah, I know one woman who sat through his discourse on marital sodomy. She now wishes she had gotten up and left but her husband was an Acts 29 church planter and that was to be their income. He is no longer affiliated thank God!

Totally off thread.

I came to this site via Internet Monk. As a survivor I was interested and thankful for what the Deebs were writing. Do I like SNAP? No! But that’s not important. You have shown me Protestants. When I was a child the Klan burnt our Church. Now I live in an area that gave birth to the Posse Comitatus. Protestant missionaries tell me I don’t read the Bible, perhaps they think the seventeen Bibles in front of them are there because I need more books not to dust.

My sons are Protestants. ( boring story- short version many years I hated God )One day my older son said I needed to be under a man’s authority. After I stopped giggling I wondered where he learned such nonsense. That’s why I started reading Protestant sites – to understand such strange thinking. I don’t agree with your theology but I’ve come to love you. I spend eyesight reading your thoughts. And maybe the next time you want to write a rude remark about the Rosary, you will remember I hold you to God. Most good Jewish sons value their mothers. That sounds snarky. I want to say is that I have been wrong and I ask you to be gentle when you speak of the love some of us have for the mother of God.

Most all, thank you for your wit and caring.

@ kansaswheat:

Not all Protestants believe in male headship.

Have you heard of Christians for Biblical Equality? They are gender egalitarians.

If you do a web search for the phrase “Christians for Biblical Equality” you can find their web site.

Sometimes, Roman Catholics (are you a Roman Catholic?) believe in male headship too, such as these Roman Catholic guys:

6 Reasons to NOT Send Your Daughter to College – Fix the Family (Roman Catholic group)

You wrote,

And maybe the next time you want to write a rude remark about the Rosary,

I’m not Deb or Dee, and I’ve not read every single post on this blog, but I’ve not seen anyone make a “rude remark about the Rosary.” What is that in reference to? I don’t understand.

@ elastigirl:

having sex with their wives at least once a day

I remember this from that video. Aside from being stupid and disturbing, what with all the other things women have to do at home in hard comp, when will she find the time to have sex multiple times a day? Make dinner, take care of the kids, clean the house, do the laundry, take out the trash, and oh yeah, honey, it’s time to have sex for the THIRD TIME today! Because I can’t just do without! *headdesk*

Maybe women don’t sleep in Mark’s world.

Patti wrote:

I used to listen to Milissa Scott years ago, I think she is brilliant. Her problem is her past. But if Mahaney and others like him can have a following after their pasts, so can she.

I used to watch her deceased hubby Dr. Gene Scott (real doctorate by the way, from Stanford) on TV years ago too. I enjoy different ‘spins’ on Scripture because in a bizarre (perverse?) sort of way, it enables me to concoct my own ‘spin’ on Scripture as it were.

Or let’s find a way to compare notes, at any rate. I don’t think Driscoll actually apologized for anything he wrote in that post, just apologized that people felt offended by stuff he said he didn’t say.

Val wrote:

(and turing the verse about the beloved thinking her lover tasted sweet to a command for wives to give their husbands oral sex was so stupid I just about threw the computer across the room)

SoS says “her lover tasted sweet” — THAT was the rationale?
Talk about a wish-fulfillment interpretation….
I think we can safely assume what MD’s personal kink is.

kansaswheat wrote:

it’s been 35 years of loneliness,sometimes people call me a dyke.

I’m in my early 40s, never married, and never had sex (following biblical teachings on that), and yes, sometimes other people (especially Christians of all backgrounds) often make insulting, negative assumptions on people based on your marital status, being suspected of being homosexual is one of them, but that usually happens to single Christian men.

I’ve more often run into Christians assuming I must be a feminist, obsessed with a career, or that I must be bitter, or, the Christians I come across online assume if you’re a woman still single past age 35, it must be because I am too fat or ugly to get a man (not true either).

@ Steve D: It’s entirely possible that there are files of his speaking in the audio archives at the site. definitely wroth a try.

The site that originally hosted/advertised the Scotland 2007 sermon is thoroughly scrubbed. 🙁

Some of the most astonishing stuff was probably never made available to the public to begin with, like that bus audio clip Chris Rosebrough got a hold of.

@ Hester:

“..having sex with their wives at least once a day..”
+++++++

reduces women to appliance-status. hah, look where mark driscoll has taken hierarchy. Will someone with influence who is reading this blog hold Mark Driscoll accountable and publicly insist on an apology from him done with sincerity? Do any of you have courage and conviction? Anyone?

@ Daisy:

Pearl expected the new wife to chase crabs on the beach on their honeymoon – at night in bare feet, no shoes (IIRC), cook them up, make the bed, do this, that, and the other, on no sleep, plus he expected sex from her several times a day.

Yes, I did read that article. And if I recall correctly, he didn’t notice anything was wrong until Debi collapsed in the shower and almost hit her head, and even then his first thought was basically, “Girls are soooooo weird, my brother never acted like this when we went camping and stuff.”

My reaction.

@ Muff Potter:

Dr. Eugene Scott?? Santa Claus but slightly shorter hair and beard and in a remarkable hat (not red with white fur)? Meaner than 2nd skimmings? (to borrow from Rachel Lynde of “Anne of Green Gables”)

I was absolutely puzzled by him (many years ago) — I called the phone # on the screen just to see what would happen — never been spoken to so rudely in my life.

what did you learn/glean from him? anything worthwhile? anything of truth, or that mattered? i’m very curious.

muzjik wrote:

As a woman, I can understand his point of view: he teaches better when he teaches the books he loves…Why should he teach a book he is not passionate about just because it allows someone to check of the box “woman author”.

Teaching is not primarily about the profs. Their job is to teach what the students need. Some of the material they will adore and some they won’t. And that understanding needs to be stated up front together with the admission that we have a big world and no one human will be passionate about everything that is wonderful.

Yes, we teach best that which we love most. The hard work, which is sacrificial and obligatory, is to try our best to also teach well the material that doesn’t thrill us.

@ kansaswheat:
I had a friend who said the Catholic view of Mary gave her the only way to understand the feminine in her faith, and thus it helped her be able to fully worship. We enjoyed arguing about it because I put the feminine inside God rather than by raising Mary, but we both recognized that the traditional views wrongly excluded us and something had to give.

Anon 1 wrote:

I know one woman who sat through his discourse on marital sodomy. She now wishes she had gotten up and left but

Here is another woman’s experience with sitting through the teaching.

http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/04/driscoll-is-anal.html

@ elastigirl:

I checked out Melissa Scott’s site and found out that I could be a member of her church IF I become a “Kings Tither” first. This gives me the right to watch sermons not online. However, IF I want to visit the actual church, I have to get tickets. I kid you not.

@ Anon 1:

Another one joins the Charlatan Band Wagon, making the rounds in America, selling their religion.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:

Yes, this is the underlining issue with all of these men who teach this.
And it’s not even that all of them are watching (or still watching) vast amounts of porn right now. But they are very influenced by porn they have viewed in the past and by our pornified culture. Sadly, instead of coming out and being separate from the world, they are incorporating the porn into their teaching and making it a pornified gospel, which is no gospel at all, for anyone. Especially women.

Nancy wrote:

some bullies

You would NEVER call our friends Mark D. and James M. bullies, would you?

Muff Potter wrote:

women have power that these guys fear and loathe

Even running the danger of repeating myself – fear is the driving force of all fundamentalism. Fear of losing control over those others that used to be so submitted and are now getting “uppity” – women, blacks, you name it.

Even if many of your new YRR and complementarian crowd does not look like your average fundy.

Mara, Thanks for the link. She says something that I am hearing from many quarters these days NOT just Driscoll but from many others of his ilk:

” We discovered too late that we were so steeped in Mark’s twisted teachings about “secondary” matters–which actually became quite Primary in Mark’s teaching–that we could no longer open our Bible without seeing anger and condemnation in it. We could no longer bring ourselves to read a book of the Bible that Mark hadn’t commentated on in sermons or writing, because we couldn’t trust our own interpretations. Mark crippled our faith and our joy in the Lord when HE became our “holy spirit.””

I cannot tell you all how many people I am hearing this from. Now, there are those who say this is ridiculous and no way could this happen to those truly saved, blah blah.

But it does.

It is amazing how penetrating (no pun intended) false teaching/wolf behavior can become a person’s normal. That is how dangerous it is. It can take years to retrain our brains to think for ourselves.

Those who are able to claw their way out of these charlatan pits worked hard for it. Let me tell you.

Anon 1 wrote:

Gus, you are in Austria?

Yes.

@ gus:

yes, I’ve mistakenly misnamed him before. I own the whole series — can’t figure out why I keep doing this. so very talented, they both are (Fry & Laurie). in my opinion, they put most other comedians to shame.

but not dawn French.

What bugs me about this conference is how they are twisting that phrase to anoint their agenda. The phrase “act like men” in other translations is simply a charge to believers to be courageous or valiant. The greek word in question happens to be etymologically related to the word for “man.” It has little to do with a male “gender role,” although we all know that’s exactly what this conference is about.

Mara wrote:

And it’s not even that all of them are watching (or still watching) vast amounts of porn right now. But they are very influenced by porn they have viewed in the past and by our pornified culture.

I’ve come to the conclusion that nowadays it’s impossible to get past puberty without developing some sort of sexual paraphilia. Only hope is that your paraphiliae are only embarrassing instead of genuinely destructive.

Sadly, instead of coming out and being separate from the world, they are incorporating the porn into their teaching and making it a pornified gospel, which is no gospel at all, for anyone. Especially women.

And humans have a real bad track record of mixing the Sacred and the Erotic. No matter how you try to mix it, let Entropy set in for a couple generations and eventually you’re screwing in the groves of Asherah with all the other fertility cultists, worshipping S*E*X 24/7.

@ Patrice:

I think Ware is trying to tell us God is male and only they were created in God’s “direct” Image. Women are a derivative and only have “man’s image). I think he is missing Gen 1 from his seminary bible. :o)

elastigirl wrote:

what did you learn/glean from him? anything worthwhile? anything of truth, or that mattered? i’m very curious.

Scott’s approach was an academic one, and probably a carefully crafted part of his mystique-showmanship-on-stage-persona. Some have argued that he was the first Christian-pastor-shock-jock to hit the airwaves. I like to give credit where credit is due though. Scott would dissect Hebrew characters from right to left the way they were meant to be read (Bushnell did it too) and in my opinion, the dimensional shift can uncover nuances that Occidentals often overlook.

Deb wrote:

the true story was badly distorted

People’s lives are usually more complicated than is good for a Hollywood movie, so the true story will almost always be distorted for the screenplay.

Also, for many years people didn’t want to be reminded of the less savoury aspects, if I may call them that, of our history – that’s why the film never became a big hit in Austria when it was released – the Nazi past was not that far away then, and that’s why it never became famous in Austria.

I myself was quite surprised when I first found out in England that there was such a popular film about Austrian events that I had never heard about, and of course I did not know then that it’s such a big hit in the US.

I’m happy for you that you enjoyed your stay.

Hester wrote:

Aside from being stupid and disturbing, what with all the other things women have to do at home in hard comp, when will she find the time to have sex multiple times a day? Make dinner, take care of the kids, clean the house, do the laundry, take out the trash, and oh yeah, honey, it’s time to have sex for the THIRD TIME today! Because I can’t just do without! *headdesk*

Now THAT is a male nymphomaniac and his ***************** (ed.) doll.
Cooker, cleaner, breeder, and personal porn star.

(off topic and for HUG)
Brony Fired For ‘My Little Pony’ Obsession: ‘FiredBrony’ Tells Reddit His Co-Workers Grew Uncomfortable Over ‘MLP’ Fandom

~ (back on topic) ~

About Ware teaching that women are only indirectly made in God’s image.

Physically, that may be true of the first woman, since she was made from Adam’s rib, but… all men after that come from women.

And, “made in God’s image” seems to refer to inner qualities, such as the ability to reason, having intellect, emotion, etc, and the Bible clearly says that both male and female are in God’s image.

There is no asterisk with a footnote in the Bible saying, “but males more so,” or, “females not as much.”

@ Daisy:

Daisy, A good place to start is Gen 1. He “created them male and female”. Adam means “human”. That is ‘creation’.

In Gen 2 He “forms”.

Some scholars believe that “Image of God” refers to free will which would include your list of intellect, reasoning, etc.

elastigirl wrote:

One of my biggest indictments of Christian culture is the limited scope of reading and hearing and ingesting only what one’s peers produce. Breathing each other’s oxygen-poor, brain-dozing exhales in that “Masculine Mystique Mylar Hot-Air Balloon” Patrice mentioned. Quite a few women float around in there, too.

They believe what they want to believe because they are human and want to assuage
The pain of life that you know ~ from Madonna’s song ‘Vogue’. But I think they’d have far better luck on the dance floor as Madonna also points out in her song.

Anon 1 wrote:

@ Patrice:
I think Ware is trying to tell us God is male and only they were created in God’s “direct” Image. Women are a derivative and only have “man’s image). I think he is missing Gen 1 from his seminary bible. )

Yeah. The way I see it is their God is too small to have more than one specific creature made in his image: the human male. All those “other” humans (bless the dears!) can only derive their being through by basking in the beams reflected from those God-imaged males.

It’s the Humbuggery of Male Preeminence. Because in my reality, the only reflections are these guys’ images in the Magic Bible Mirror. “Mirror mirror on the wall, Who looks like God most of all?” Whoop!

Now if, as Daisy mentions, they were extraordinarily good-looking, one might at least see a point to it, even if still unacceptable. But not so much.

Nevertheless, I congratulate Bruce Ware on giving us any consideration at all.

Victorious wrote:

Of course they’re merchandising manhood…because according to Mark Driscoll in the video…
Get the young men, you get families, the women, the children, the MONEY,…EVERYTHING! You don’t get the young men, you get NOTHING!

Human souls don’t matter unless they’re male and under 40. Wow.

KR Wordgazer wrote:

Human souls don’t matter unless they’re male and under 40. Wow

Hi KR, human (female) souls matter when and how they want us to be of value. 🙁

Note to Alex….when WOMEN start sexually abusing children in their congregations, covering it up, and then expecting the people in the church to look the other way….you can bet dee and deb will be all over it. Overwhelmingly, sexual abuse is USUALLY MALE and that is one of the main tenants of this blog…to expose it. Deal with it.

Thank God for your website! It occurs to me in this day and age, that men like my father (who is the most Christlike, manly man I’ve ever known) never had to go to a conference, or read a best selling book to know how to be a man. They read the Bible, studied Jesus, followed His command to love others as yourself, and treated women as valuable ministers of the Word – with absolute respect. Like…..Jesus.

Question: I love Hamilton, by why are the Act Like Men guys coming here, instead of Toronto or Buffalo, both an hour away, or anywhere else? Wouldn’t think we’d be a particularly target-rich market for them…Hope the visitors have a chance to enjoy all the great hiking trails along the Niagara Escarpment…

@ Chris:

That’s awesome!

@ Chris:

your dad makes me think of a short ingredients list of 3 basic, good things. Tastes great, feels good, promotes good health.

as opposed to a very long, bewildering laboratory-sounding one — all to generate something new and improved to get attention and grab customers and keep the food company busy, replacing naturally occurring goodness (that has been unwittingly processed out) with pretend, manufactured goodness, & adding 3 more ingredients to combat the problems that the previous 4 ingredients caused.

The latter tastes nice, goes down nice, and ruins your health. but keeps pharmaceutical in business.

@ will f:
Ach, will f, you obviously love this professor. He must have some ability as a prof and he obviously knows how to write. So, a few points:

1.A writer (as any artist) can do fine work and be of questionable personal character. Likewise, a person can be a loving father/husband and yet say/do perfectly wretched things officially. This is an unfortunate truth for many of us.

2.When there is an artist who also is a good prof, that is a lovely thing. This however, doesn’t mean the artist/prof understands the importance of a broad and compassionate education for students.
3. Even if this prof was merely being snarky and was additionally a victim of a journalist with ulterior motives, he should not have said what he did. He is a man with obvious language skills and an ability to teach complex subject matter. I cannot give him a pass on what I will, on your behalf, label as poor comedy.
4. Our world remains very hard on women. Moreover, the educational system is still largely white male both in information and delivery even after the decades of (dubious) identity studies. This prof has decided to participate in the divisiveness (even if as a joke) in a way that deepens rather than alleviates an already deep human problem. I cannot approve of it.
5. I have not lynched your professor. To say so is an insult to lynching, if you know what I mean. I am criticizing his (apparently) off-handed treatment of women and his lack of understanding about education. This is fair because he made public statements.

I would never wish you to let go the good that he taught you. Anytime the world is made deeper, larger, more serious and more delightful, far be it from me to get in the way.

I find this interesting they mention the Titanic and how some men acted.

I remember one Christian speaker speaking about the Titanic and how there were some “men” that in desperation/cowardice dressed up like women as a means of getting on a lifeboat. This speaker used this to illustrate what a situation like a ship sinking will bring out in some men and how other situations can do the same thing.

IMO, the exposure of C.J. Mahaney’s sin and hypocrisy and how both Sovereign Grace Leaders and other “Calvinista” leaders responsed brought out and exposed what kind of “leaders” these men proved to be. With Mahaney, you had leaders both in and outside of the movement whitewashing C.J. Mahaney’s sin rather than exposing and dealing with it.

Just like the Titanic sinking exposed the cowardice of some men and what they would do to survive the Mahaney debacle showed just how insincere C.J. Mahaney was about doing the right thing when it applied to himself. It also exposed the corruptness or how deceived so many other “Calvinista” leaders are.

@ will f:
Thanks for linking to Gilmour’s graceful and honest piece. I also love Tolstoy and laughed that Stalin did too. It’s a funny old world, isn’t it?

I have never understood why power-hunger can be fed only through demeaning others. It’s such an expensive way to gain personal certainty!

Don’t worry about Gilmour’s career. He’s well-established. Any pushback he receives will only be good for him, if he chooses to find it so. And besides, criticism is part of the artist’s life and a thick-enough skin is developed early on.

I think he had a fine student in you. I wish you the best.

KR Wordgazer wrote:

There is a “masculine mystique” still influencing US society which these groups are capitalizing on. This blog post I did recently seems apropos to the topic:

I liked your post on your blog. I too have read Coontz and I think both of you have a knack for simplifying and distilling what others burn up thousands of words on and still not say a god-cussed thing. And before I build my own gallows and cinch the rope around my own neck, I’ll stop there…

Daisy wrote:

Good point. A lot of the stuff I’m seeing in Christianity and how lots of Christians behave, coupled with a few personal crises in my life the last few years, have caused me to have one foot planted in Agnostic Land, and the other is still barely in Christianity. This after years and years of being a goody goody, conservative Christian (I accepted Jesus as Savior as a kid) who was into apologetics for years, studying the history of the Bible (how the Bible came to us today) etc. How Christians behave (do they walk the walk, do they practice what they preach, or are they more or less hypocrites most of the time), and how they treat other people, can impact whether or not people stay in the faith or walk away. I know that’s true in my case, and I’ve talked to other people for whom it’s been true. You can have correct doctrine all day long, but if you are also treating other people like trash consistently, it really makes me wonder if the faith is so true after all, or worth while

Daisy,

I just want to take a moment to encourage you to keep hanging in there and to NOT give up on Christ! I was raised by an extremely selfish, abusive, and neglectful woman who was a mean-spirited jerk to her family behind closed doors, but knew EXACTLY how to put on the fake "Christian" face in public and in church. I know that if I were to tell a lot of those church members today about the hell she put me through, they would NEVER truly believe me because she wore the hypocritical, lying mask so perfectly well. Tragically, there are SO many abusers going to church today who are EXACTLY like that, so if and when the truth of the way they REALLY treat others finally surfaces or their victims ever discuss it, they are so often not believed. This is part of the reason why I really stopped attending church AGES ago. I am no longer affiliated with any church anywhere, and so I don't fit in well with the overall idea of what a Christian is supposed to be, that's true. But just because I find church (and really, social situations in general these days) too painful and difficult, it DOES NOT MEAN that I have ever (or WILL EVER) give up on Christ, and you shouldn't either. The God who created this planet, sunrises and sunsets and mountains and beaches and stars and INFINITE wonders IS a HOLY, PERFECT Being, and a Being who is TRULY holy and perfect and sinless (as Christ clearly is) will NOT sin against you to harm you the way that imperfect, sinful human beings do. I can well understand your feeling tempted to want to throw in the towel because I'm going through a very painful kind of trial in my own personal life and I've struggled with that temptation too, but I know Jesus loves me too much to ever give up on me so I cannot and will not give up on Him, and I beg you not to do the same. It's true that, tragically, sinful human beings CANNOT be trusted. That's a bitterly painful lesson I've learned over and over AND OVER again in my own personal life. And, tragically, just because a person is PROFESSING to be a born-again Christian, it does NOT automatically mean that he or she truly is. Tragically, I suspect that the REAL Church, the number of REAL born-again Christians in the world, is far, far smaller than the number of all the people who are simply CLAIMING to be Christians. Jesus didn't say that the path that leads to eternal life through Him is narrow and that it is few who find it for nothing. But truth and eternal life ARE IN HIM. PLEASE don't let go of something so infinitely precious as that because of the sinfulness of others. Just because humanity is sinful DOES NOT MEAN that God cannot be trusted. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit created humanity to be perfect and sinless in the beginning and the evil and cruelty in today's world is NOT something He brought into it. But I DO understand how hard it can be to lose sight of that at times. I've had so many times when I've been so terrified that God would betray me and abuse me just as my first parents did, and to be perfectly honest, that's a very deep fear in me I STILL struggle with, but my dear Lord has always treated me with great patience and kindness and understanding, and I know He'll bring me through my own personal trials and struggles now because He's done it before, and I know He'll do the same for you. *HUGS*

Patrice, as one Tolstoy fan to another, who has ever written more scenes that can squeeze your heart with an iron fist, make you feel physically sick, make you stand up and jump for joy, than that guy?
1 The bit in Master in Man when the rich guy and the driver realize they are lost in the blinding blizzard and have no clue which way to go.
2 The death of Andrei
3 The bit when Natasha goes to the party, gets all happy, then gets terrified that nobody’s going to ask her to dance, then somebody asks her to dance–and the reader feels like it’s happening to him/her…
4 The bit when Anna Karenina’s hubby finds out she’s stepping out, stays up all night pacing the floor and his life is described as a rope slung across a chasm, but now he finds out the rope is imaginary…
5 Several bits with Pierre, like when he’s leaving home, and sees a tree. Much later when he comes back and is feeling suicidal, he sees that the tree, ins spite of it all, is blooming! And that puts the wind back in his sails.
5 There’s a bit in The Death of Ivan when he finds out the only way to get pain relief is to put his feet on his slave’s shoulders. One time he falls asleep, wakes up and find that his feet are on the shoulders of the uncomplaining slave, who has also fallen asleep in that position. It is such a raw moment of human empathy it’s hard to even think about without choking up…
ok. all the best to you.

@ Steve240:

Steve what did the “real” men on the Titanic do about the women and children in steerage? There was also a big socio economic piece to who got saved.

If the Bible word was “man” as in “human” rather than “man” as in “male”, then the whole idea of “act like a man” has a totally different connotation! “Act like a Human” suggests things like compassion, caring for the weak, etc. Kind of the thing that scouting teaches. Definitely not MMA and “I can beat you up!”

Perhaps we should raise funds to send Caleb so he can report back without having to pay so much in order to do so. Perhaps we can raise enough to equip him with a secret camera, or interviewing equipment under the guise of, “reporting this momentous” event for posterity.

Just thinking out loud.

@ Arce:

I had to look at that exact word/verse on my blog in a critique of Doug Phillips’ lecture on manliness. The word is andrizomai which basically means to “man up” (derived from aner for “man” or “male”). But in context Paul is talking to the whole Corinthian church, so whatever “man up” means, Paul wants the women to do it too. Silly Paul, blurring gender and role distinctions like that. Tsk tsk.

ANON 1

Actually, General Kutozov offers a great piece of advice: “When in doubt, do nothing.” Reminds me of President Coolidge saying “Do you realize how many problems we could solve if people would just sit still and keep quiet?”

Pierre is great. He struggles feel so real! That bit when he’s on the battlefield and he’s thinking, I’m supposed to kill him, and he might kill me today, just because somebody else said so–this is all so absurd!

Henry Fonda as Pierre? Hooray for Hollywood.

dee, friends from my church are going, so I’m sure I’ll hear about it. My church is right across the street from Copps Coliseum.

“With everything that has come out, Mahaney’s “I’m the worst sinner I know” comment is quite ironic.”

We should have believed him.

Patti wrote:

When Solomon was pursuing the Shulamite girl he already had 60 women and how many does the Bible say he eventually ended up with??? Um ya, it worked out real well for that Shulamite bride, if indeed she did marry him. I like the interpretation of SOS as actually a love triangle. I think there are two men in the book, the king and the shepherd. I think she rejected the wooing of the rich sexy king and married her true love, the shepherd.

So….perhaps SoS is really prescriptive for us today in that we, the Bride of Christ, are to look carefully and opt for our true Shepherd, Jesus, instead of the flashy JMac & MD pastors of this world.

Oh, Solomon was faithful, alright, faithful to satisfy his urges to do whomever his eyes fell upon and looked attractive to him.

Only someone with severe insecurities about “being a man” would constantly obsess about telling others to “act like men.”

Most secure men probably don’t even think about “acting like a man.” They just do it naturally.

Mr H, Can my friend Joshua come along?

Dee/Deb, I’m going to head to Elevation Toronto on October 20 or 27. I’ll let you know if there is anything worth noting over there.

I would also point out that Elevation “Toronto” is actually in Mississauga (the west side of Mississauga), which is a city west of Toronto. Mississauga is part of the Greater Toronto Area but is not Toronto. I guess “Elevation Mississauga” doesn’t have the same ring to it to the brain trust down in Charlotte. Its all about the brand.

I’ve seen that Driscoll video before, but every time I re-watch it, the same thought occurs:

“Did you seriously just say that the feminine aspects of the human race are what’s keeping the church from being innovative? Wow, thanks.” :/

Check out the same issue at http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/

Arce said…
So they want to get into your anus as well as your wallet? This is the most ridiculous marketing ploy that I have seen for a Christian group ever.

And I do not think Acts 29 is healthy enough to tell others what their spiritual illnesses are. Anyone who counts Driscoll among their leaders is sick, sick, sick. Physician, heal thyself

notastepfordsheep wrote:

Men, have you had your spiritual prostate exam?

I have an extremely enlarged prostate. I am very familiar with prostate exams, both the DRE and the ultrasound-guided prostate biopsy. No fun. At least I KNOW I’m not into Driscollese sex.

What are these guys with their “spiritual prostate exams” using for reality? Have they ever had an ultrasound dildo shoved up their butt and twelve biopsy needles shot through the colon wall into their prostate? Peed blood for two weeks afterwards? (I wrecked four sets of underwear that way.) If they haven’t, they will be — if you’re not a castrato, every male’s prostate is going to go bad eventually. Maybe they’ll be singing a different tune then.

What we really need is a conference on how to put on a conference.

Eduell respectfully, you need to learn to paddle your own boat.

So point the finger at others and pick apart and dissect the good intentions of others without reason or really knowing. Others seek to do the work of the Lord, and God is working through them.

This has to be one of the most arrogant and prideful group of people to post this article let alone agree with it. I couldn’t differentiate if this was a discussion from CNN or a Christian network.

Ya know what, I kind of like Mr. Driscol and pastor James because of a few reasons that you all were very nice to point out. They are not perfect. They are sinner. It is nice to know I can better relate to them to all the perfect people hating on them on this site.

@ Tyler:

And Tyler, don’t forget: congregationalism is from Satan. James MacDonald said so.

But they are thankful for followers like you, I am sure. I would prefer you follow Christ. And no, it is not the same thing.

P.S. “Tyler” – to be fair, you have dibs on that one. Please let me know if you’d like to copyright it.

Tyler wrote:

So point the finger at others and pick apart and dissect the good intentions of others without reason or really knowing.

This is so funny to me.

A Driscolite told me to go watch a Driscoll sermon and see for myself what an awesome teacher he was.

So I did.

You know what I saw?

Driscoll was pointing the finger at others and picking apart and dissecting their good intentions without reason or really knowing or caring where those people were coming.
There was only one way, the right way, his way of looking at things. All that didn’t agree, he mocked and ridiculed to scorn without any mercy.

You know what else I found out?

When discussing Driscoll or anything, hardcore Drisconians won’t even take you seriously unless you adopt an arrogant, mockery ways of discussing things. You know why? Being peaceful and gracious is viewed as weak and feminine and wrong.
Which is what they are convinced you are anyway because you don’t agree with them. But being gracious only seals the deal for them.

So I’m just laughing inwards at your comment, Tyler.
Apparently it’s okay for Driscoll to be an over-the-top-jerk towards those he disagrees with. It’s all nice and ‘manly’ and stuff so that makes it okay.
The only thing is… he and his followers had better learn how to take what they dish out. Or better yet, they should just stop dishing it out, hand-over-fist, and then get all indignant when others don’t live by the double standard they try to set up.

Ryan wrote:

Do you disagree with their message or just that they’re making money?

Yes.

That said, there is a point to be made amidst all of the din. The church here in the UK suffers in many instances from being, not feminised, but infantilised. Collectively we are comfortable enough ministering healing to individuals, but not declaring justice to a society. We do need bold leaders – with or without penises. I only wish Mr Driscoll And Pastor James © were as passionate about defending the poor against sub-prime lenders as they are about defending the pulpit against women.

Is masculinity, or are men in general, under attack? Well, from a few quarters, yes. There are women who hate men. Some of them do so purely out of aggression. (The lack of a penis does not make one totally immune from sin.) That will always be the case. Bigots are bigots, whatever their DNA. There are men who hate women, too. There are people who hate Jews, people who hate other races, people who hate others because of their social background; people who hate people whose ears stick out (I went to school with some of them); people who hate other people for all sorts of bad reasons. All kinds of group human traits are under attack; there’s nothing special about masculinity in that respect. Trying to make men more aggressive ain’t going to stop the war.

I’m sure glad Deb and Dee are keeping up on everything going on elsewhere.

And I’m sure surprised that Driscoll/MacDonald defenders are still commenting on this September post in November.

I responded to Tyler above. But Ryan?
Ryan asked if we were okay with the attack on Manhood. Dee asked for proof of this attack. As of yet, none has been given. But Dee mentions the attack on women that is going on. And now I want to throw in my 2 cents. But my 2 cents turned in to $1.98 plus tax. So I made a post out of it.

This is for Ryan. And I’m looking for an answer. Is he okay with the attack on the feminine that is going in in evangelical circles?

http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2013/11/is-manhood-under-attack-really.html

@ Ryan:

Dude, why can’t I just leave this alone and move on?

Simple. It’s because of all the guys like you, Ryan, who have been influenced by the giant, money-making propaganda machine propelled by the likes of Driscoll and MacDonald. You have been truly convinced that there is a war on your manhood. So much so, that you come to a comment thread that is two months old and try to tell people that this war against you is really going on.

The Driscoll/MacDonald propaganda machine really has you guys under it’s spell so that you and your fellow ‘warriors’ spend lots of money on the war machine so Driscoll and MacDonald can be rich. (and you can be duped into believing that you have been helped)

Ryan, I am still waiting for proof of this war.

Meantime I have more proof of the actual war being carried out against women by Driscoll’s and MacDonald’s peers.

http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2013/11/another-attack-on-womanhood.html

To everyone else, I apologize for dragging this thread out. It should have gone inactive some time ago.
But the Ryan’s and Tyler’s of this world who keep coming here trying to convince us that the Driscoll/MacDonald war machine is right and we are wrong, they need to see proof that their idols are just that, idols who do not speak for God concerning manhood and womanhood.

@ MWorrell:

And I’m STILL looking for proof that “Manhood” is under attack. I’ve given plenty of actual (but not exhaustive) proof that womanhood and femininity IS under attack by Driscoll and MacDonald’s cronies.

MWorrell, where is the proof of this war on manhood?

Get a clue. There isn’t any.

There is only a conjured up ‘war’ on manhood. This ‘war’ has been conjured so that men will feel the need to slap down $100 or more to the Warlocks who have conjured up this war. The Warlocks have done all this conjuring so that they can have lots of fame and money.

Men leaving this conference may have walked away with masculine warm-fuzzies, believing that their manhood has been uplifted. But they also leave with a paranoia concerning this war against them and they will find enemies where none exist.

As a point of reference: I sent my husband to Promise Keepers 20 years ago, wanting him to be uplifted in who he was as a man. He came back with those masculine warm-fuzzies. But he also came back on the defensive. He came back ’empowered’ to do battle with me and to prove to himself and to me who “wore the pants in the family”. Because this always seems to be the issue at these men’s conferences.

http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/05/promise-keepers-hurt-my-marriage.html

dee wrote:

from very strangely named men. Looks like some of the “boys” at Act Like Men could use a refresher.

I can only imagine some of those strange names…
But I don’t have to imagine the spirit behind those kinds of emails. I’ve met that scoffing, mocking immaturity you speak of from many a Driscoll Proselyte.

You will know them by their fruit.

Mara, I’m sorry for your experience with your husband, and I do not know what was presented at Promise Keepers rallies because I have never been to one. I don’t recall a war on manhood being a major thing (I didn’t mention any such idea). But I can tell you that at this conference any suggestion that men should be leaders at home was in a biblical context: that is, men are to love their wives as Christ loves His church – sacrificially. If you have no problem with how Christ loves His church, you would have no problem with anything men were challenged to do at Act Like Men. If men are to be like Christ, then I would say that biblical manhood is absolutely under attack. But the proper response is not to act macho and tough. It’s to rely more heavily on the Lord. “Let all that you do be done in love.”

Dee and Anon, they did have an alter call. And those men who responded were taken to another area to receive a Bible and some additional information. So that would be the source for the count. They gave an exact figure in excess of 500, but I didn’t commit it to memory. I think a lot of people brought unsaved friends; that would be my thought on the size of the response to the Gospel.

Dee, I personally learned that I have allowed my earthly father’s bad examples to occupy too much space in my life, and that I need to keep my eyes on my perfect heavenly Father and what His Word says. I also learned that I am very good at saying to my wife that I love her, but very poor and proving it by my actions and priorities. So we had a talk when I came home, and I shared some of these things, and we made some plans for going forward. Nothing “new”, but when the Bible is preached God has a way of getting the point across. It was a really great event that the Holy Spirit used to make some permanent impact on me.

@ MWorrell:

Since you didn’t go to the link to find out what I went through, let me cut and paste the Tony Evans “Promise Keepers” quote here for your enjoyment and entertainment.

“The first thing you do is sit down with your wife and say something like this: `Honey, I’ve made a terrible mistake. I’ve given you my role. I gave up leading this family, and I forced you to take my place. Now I must reclaim this role.’ Don’t misunderstand what I’m saying here. I’m not suggesting that you ask for your role back. I’m urging you to take it back.” He went on to say, “If you simply ask for it back, your wife is likely to refuse…Unfortunately, there can be no compromise here.”

These are words of conflict, setting up a “No compromise, take no prisoners” scenario which is the opposite of what both Jesus and Paul said.

Also, if you had gone to my link you might have found where there are links between the Shepherding movement and Promise Keepers and also a link between Promise Keeper phraseology and Driscoll Phraseology.

http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/05/promise-keepers-shepherding-movement.html

I don’t expect you to go to this link either.
But in it is a link to Driscoll acting macho and tough and talking about breaking noses.

And I am STILL waiting for evidence from you or someone else concerning this war on manhood. I still don’t see it even though people keep talking about it all the time like it is established fact. All I see is a war on the feminine and trying to remove it from public expression of worship by Piper (close friend of Driscoll) and Challies (another reformed dude) and Wilson (Who Piper believes is brilliant with Driscoll’s agreement).
I provided proof of all these things in links above. There are many posts here a TWW providing links to this war on the feminine.
No one has provided proof of the war on manhood in the church.

Mara, I did go to the links, but I don’t have anything to do with Promise Keepers or Tony Evans, so I am choosing not to engage you on that matter. I see that it is a subject of great importance to you, and I respect that, but it doesn’t have anything to do with me and I don’t know enough about any of that to comment on it.

Additionally, I did not say there is a war on men. I don’t know who did, but that’s the person you should ask about that. I have a daughter and a son, and I would say that the cultural messages targeted at them both are horrid, and that if there is a war on men, it’s the same war on men that has been raging forever: to knock them off the narrow path of following Christ. It sounds like you are focused on some faction of people that I am unacquainted with.

Mark Driscoll is not my pastor. I heard him speak at the Act Like Men conference and he did not say to break anyone’s nose, and even if he had I follow Jesus, not Mark Driscoll. So I don;t really care what he says about breaking noses any more than I care when Benny Hinn says I should send him a bunch of money so I can be happy and healthy. In fact, that kinda bothers me more, because desperate old people will send Hinn money but they probably won’t break anyone’s nose. I feel that the exhortation I received at Act Like Men from all of the speakers was healthy and biblical.

I don’t think I have to answer for every joker that says something in a book or on YouTube. If you want to ask me something about James MacDonald, that’s another matter, because he actually IS my pastor and I wouldn’t be a member of his church and serving in it if I didn’t support him.

I just thought that since this was a blog post about Act Like Men, that a report from a person who actually went might be of interest.

I guess I was at a different conference from the one the blogger linked to above was at, and I think my wife would tell you I am posting here in complete sincerity. I have no interest in spinning my conference experience.

“Abuse your power. Demean women. This is what gives you the prize.”

I just don’t know what to say except that I heard every speaker start to finish and I heard absolutely nothing of the kind said or implied. In fact, of the four men I spent my time with at ALM, all of them would be flatly offended at the suggestion that they had participated in an event with that kind of message. We love and respect our wives as equals. To the degree we believe we are called to be leaders, leaders wash the feet. Leaders lay down their lives. Leaders SERVE. That was the message of the conference, and the fruit of that is obvious to my wife. She’s glad I went.

I mean, if someone regards a few jokes about stereotypes (most of them self deprecating towards men) as a sexist failure, fine. It’s probably not everyone’s idea of a great weekend. I personally do not like going to conferences where mainline protestant ministers in tweed jackets and turtlenecks with conspicuous cross pendants worn on the outside talk about why Jesus wants you to drink fair trade coffee. That’s why the Church is a big, diverse place.

It was supposed to be funny, but hey.

MWorrell wrote:

I mean, if someone regards a few jokes about stereotypes (most of them self deprecating towards men) as a sexist failure, fine. It’s probably not everyone’s idea of a great weekend.

Actually, MWorrell, you’ve hit on something here.

First off, I do believe that you are commenting here in all sincerity. And I do believe that you are surprised by the hostility shown here.
I prefer to talk to guys like you than the drive bys we often get.
You may never agree with us. You may never fully understand the concerns that we have. You may continue to dismiss some of our concerns, really thinking that they are no big deal. But at least you are willing to talk about it in a civilized manner. Just know that I do respect you for this.

Now back to where I quote you.

There are stereotypes. And I do understand laughing at some of the differences between men and women rather than getting hostile or bent out of shape.

But there is deeper level that so many dismiss because it is easier than caring about it. Caring about things make people feel vulnerable. And the stereotype that we all live with it that it’s okay for women to be vulnerable, but not men.

Anyway, Stereotypes exist. Where I have an issues is when the stereotypes become the all encompassing story. All men are supposed to be this and do that. All women are like this and act like that.

Guys get locked into these thought. It makes sense of this confusing world and it’s easy for them to make light of a woman’s issue or concern because women are ‘like that’. Women care too much for things that aren’t that big of a deal.

Well, perhaps those things really are a big deal and shouldn’t be dismissed, or worse yet, minimalized and mocked.

This comment got too long and I’ve barely scratched the surface of what I mean. But my bottom line is this.

Dee is correct in expressing concern over these conferences. They play at “getting to the deeper things”. But really, they come across as just some of the same old, kumbya that keeps everyone and everything in their boxes (especially women, and including God) that make men feel better, more important, and more in control of our lives.

You are free to give me evidence of it being otherwise.

MWorrel: “When we attended the membership class, one of the statements made by the assistant pastor was that we would “never see a woman in the pulpit”. That so angered me that as we walked to the car, I flatly said, ‘I cannot join this church.’ ”

MWorrel: “But if next week I started attending a pentecostal church with a female pastor, I’d do fine, and would no doubt have similar peripheral areas of doctrinal disagreement.”

I see that going to these churches and conferences has not completely ruined you. 😉

I’ve also seen both sides.

But I’ve seen more abuse on the Male Leadership side than on the other.

I’ve seen that a lot of men simple cannot handle that much authority and are not ready for it when it is dumped upon them. I’ve see such authority go straight to a lot men’s heads.

Being a former pastor’s wife (husband no longer a pastor, I’m still married to him) I saw the damage that occurred when relationships were reduced to roles and hierarchy. I soon realized that it was more important to teach people the golden rule than the golden roles and hierarchy.

Anyway, that’s what I’ve seen.

If what you say is true concerning your church, the men in your church, and MacDonald himself, all I can say is that though I cannot agree with the patriarchy part, I still believe that God can work through such situations.

I only wish MacDonald wouldn’t hang out with, support, or otherwise give legitimacy to Driscoll’s ministry.

have any of you ever spoken directly with any of these people? it is easy and effective.

MWorrell wrote:

James MacDonald is without a doubt the most transparent pastor I have ever had.

If true, what a sad indictment of the church that is.

Having attended the conference myself, I can say that you apparently have something out for these men. Whether you agree with them theologically or not, God is doing a great work in the lives of many men through this conference and through these men. It was not a conference about beating your chest, eating raw meat, and being a cave man. Rather it was about loving your God and family.
Take a look at Philippians 1:15-18 to see how Paul handled others preaching Christ in a way contrary to how he did it…

Interesting that people are criticizing an event they apparently didn’t attend and are clearly uninformed about. If you question the real focus of the conference either attend it to evaluate it or watch the recordings. Turns out, the focus was on the truth in the 1 Corinthians 16:13-14! Gossip and backbiting like this is hobbling Christianity. You might ask yourself what YOU are doing to encourage Christian men in their faith around you. That’d be far more productive than this sarcastic sniping from afar. Or would you rather have men sit at home watching football rather than taking a weekend to focus on God and His truth? The conference did not emphasis wearing any certain attire and was not “hyper masculine” and didn’t advocate being a tough guy. The masculinity they were calling men to is the Biblical version, not muscle flexing and grunting world’s version of being a man. Again, watch the recordings instead of making baseless assumptions. It was not “vague and confusing”, but rather straight forward and right from Scripture.

The cost? It takes money to rent a massive convention center, just like any other large event. You ask how this furthers the kingdom of God? Ask the men who actually attended and were challenged and called to change by the truth from the Word. If the truth penetrated hearts and began change in men’s lives, what’s it to you if those that attended paid admission? Being a professional critic of those who minister is exactly what the enemy of our souls wants. At the very least, be informed about what was actually taught at the conference before passing judgment.

Glad to see others who actually attending are adding some facts to the mix.

Re: “As for stuff being ‘right from Scripture’ you might want to change it to being ‘right from the interpretation of the conference organizers’ of Scripture.”

Well, that’s true of almost anything… I have never read a book by a Christian author that did not have some statement I could take exception to. If I want to like that particular book, and I consider the rest of his/her books and writings, it’s probably worse. Add everything they’ve ever said (which, increasingly, is actually available on YouTube), and there’s no way anyone is 100% agreeable.

That’s why these debates are often so circular and fruitless. Once you get beyond the creeds, you have to agree to disagree. I just don’t see the point of banging on and on about ministries that differ on minors when there are full blown cults out there to contend with. There’s no end to it.

Issues at Harvest Bible Chapel are a good example. If someone doesn’t like James MacDonald’s theology, by all means comment publicly on it because it is broadcast publicly. Don’t make a lifestyle out of it, but have your say.

But if you don’t like our elder structure? Or how we set salaries? Or how we manage our budget? Or how we execute church discipline? I already have elders for the purpose of leading my church, and I really have no need for half-informed people outside my church trying to override my own local church elder board.

Dee, I’m sorry, but there is so much judging of the men at this conference on your part. Based on your statements, you seem to think you know why they were there, that they are looking for new info rather than a proclamation of God’s unchanging Word, that they are ignorant about the financial facet of such events, that they neglect the practical care and appreciation of their wives so they can blow money on empty weekends. As a man who attended and benefited from the weekend, I utterly reject your portrayal. It is no doubt true of at least some men, I am certain, but throw a rock in the air; you’ll hit someone guilty.

I fully agree with you on many of Driscoll’s failings, but they do not amount to a betrayal of orthodox doctrine. They are debatable issues, even if I would not join his church. If you tell me he’s no longer preaching the essentials, you’ll have my full attention.

It just seems you have no ears for anything good about the weekend. I have what the Holy Spirit applied to me from it, and that’s enough for me.

Mara wrote:

There is betrayal of orthodox doctrine.
And there is a Huge betrayal of women.
Driscoll is barely qualified (if at all) to teach men basic doctrine.
He absolutely NOT qualified to teach men how to be men OR how to view and treat women. He simple is not qualified to hold these conferences or to be an invited speaker to them

Agreed!

MWorrell wrote:

I fully agree with you on many of Driscoll’s failings, but they do not amount to a betrayal of orthodox doctrine.

dee wrote:

Neither is this messenger perfect. However, one must take the overall message of those who put the conference together. Let’s start with Mark Driscoll.

These men all came to Driscoll’s venue, and lent their names to the conference – which shouts to the world their endorsement – thus providing Driscoll with a springboard to more fame and marketability. Why don’t these guys get it?

@ Nick Bulbeck:
PREACH IT, brother.

You guys probably know more about that than I do. I can comment on what I hear Driscoll say publicly, but I’m not going to draw conclusions about him from second-hand accounts of people I don’t even know. That is the business of those in his congregation and their elders, and those close enough to know the actual facts. I personally would not join his church based on some things I have actually heard him say.

Like I said, a lot of info is flying around about Harvest Bible Chapel and James MacDonald that simply is not factual, and that has educated me about the reliability of info I encounter about ministries and pastors.

MWorrell wrote:

James MacDonald is without a doubt the most transparent pastor I have ever had.

A God Can Do no Wrong.

MWorrell wrote:

… about 500 guys got saved

Maybe 500 guys got saved. Maybe many more than 500 got saved, but the Holy Spirit didn’t lead them to go forward or otherwise respond in a way that would have registered in the stats (quite possible). Maybe only a handful got saved; maybe nobody got saved. Time will tell.

For the record (and I don’t sell many records at that), I have no issue with conferences as such. They had them in ancient Israel, after all. Large gatherings are a valid part of church life. As long as it’s not a substitute for the rest of church life, and as long as the exhilaration of the stadium experience doesn’t become confused with “the presence of God”, I don’t doubt they can be beneficial.

I do think that many conferences are a missed opportunity, though. The concept of “local church” in practice nearly always means “local churches” – i.e., monocultural groups who meet near one another but isolated from one another, having (to cite the verse from Hebrews usually pushed into the faces of “nones”) forsaken assembling together, or indeed having anything to do with one another. Conferences are one of the few established activities whereby believers may actually rub shoulders with believers from very different backgrounds. Big conferences with little-known speakers, representing grass-roots organisations serving in areas that are under-represented in current Christian literature, could teach us a great deal about how to love one another.

@ An Attorney:

The thing is, there is no good reason why the church in any local area could not operate like that all the time. With much expansion on the idea of “fellowship” – groupings of people with similar callings and complementary gifts, building one another up in the pursuit of the Father’s will in their communities.

Additionally, of course, these would be people seated with Christ in heaven, and able to pray with the authority of Christ’s co-heirs. So when they get together, unrealistic things really happen, along with the hopelessly impractical and the politically impossible. If that was the substance of Matt Chandler’s message reminding us about our position in Christ cited by Nate above, then there may be cause for optimism.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

The fruit of the spirit is not twitter followers nor even congregational followers; it’s described by Paul in terms of a person’s character attributes. Orthodox doctrine is merely a part of a means to an end, and the man who uses credal orthodoxy as a cover for his unregenerate character has certainly betrayed it. As long as we judge leaders by their doctrine (which is the easiest thing in the world to manufacture), and not by the fruit evidenced in their characters, we’ll never lack deception.

Nick, I love this! It turns the whole idea of leadership upside down, which is exactly the habit of Jesus. How does a degree from seminary measure strength of character? I can tell you firsthand, as a graduate of a Bible college, that I learned just as much about deviance as I did about divinity! It breeds a sense of entitlement, and like you said Nick, of an ambition to lead. In churches today, I witness less of a humble “Who am I to speak for You LORD?” and more and more of a “Do you not know who I am to speak for the LORD?”

@ Mara:

Didn’t Driscoll admit in a video online or a blog page that he doesn’t know the bible’s original languages and acts rather proud of this? I think Chris Rosebrough brought it up on his show, and Deb and Dee may have blogged about it too.

Driscoll has also bragged about writing a two hour sermon in five minutes or something.

Mark Driscoll doesn’t want you to study the Bible

Guy does not mind letting people know he is not an intellectual and does not do much studying, probably because (just a guess) he looks more like a “cool bro” to the 20 year old guys if he paints a picture of himself as sitting around watching football and drinking beer, not with his nose in a ancient Hebrew language lexicon.

JeffT wrote:

Anyone ever done any follow-up on any of these mass conversions?

Billy Graham Ministries, to their credit, made some effort to collect precisely that information. Even they reckoned on a 90% drop off rate a year after a BG rally. Caveat: I think they based that information on regular church attendance, which isn’t the only measure, or even necessarily a good one.

MWorrell wrote:

So in spiritual terms

That would be your particular interpretation of that text. I don’t share it. It is non-sensical to tell someone they are equal spiritually but not in other ways.

You said, “But I am curious how someone who asserts that there are no biblical gender roles reconciles that concept with God’s obvious decision to make women biological mothers and men biological fathers. Setting aside any rigid concepts of “biblical” manhood/womanhood that are obviously indefensible, it would seem plain that God has instituted a purposeful distinctiveness.”

The Bible doesn’t teach “gender roles.”

I don’t see what biological differences have to do with anything, or how bio differences can be used to limit women’s talents and gifts.

A woman may have a God given gifting or talent at teaching, even if she is capable of having being pregnant

YOu said,
“In the end, there are women who want men to conform to modern gender stereotypes, and women who do not.”

Women who do not wish to conform to gender compism, how they define womanhood, are often rather insulted over it. It is implied that they are not quite Christian, or are rebelling against God and the Bible, etc.

The irony is, I am not opposed to the notion of a woman being a wife and mommy if that is what she chooses for herself, and I have been treated rudely for saying so by secular feminists on other sites.

My issue is that segments of Christianity (e.g., gender complementarians) teach it is “biblical truth” that a woman’s only, or highest, calling is to be a wife and mommy, and that women may not use any of their gifts (such as teaching or leading).

Many of these gender comp teachings, as I was just saying on another post, are about totally irrelevant to never married and childless adult women such as myself, because the only “gender roles” they define only discuss men and women in regards to marriage and parenting.

Gender compism does not know what to do with never married men and women who are age 40 or older.

Gender complementarians do not truly seek to define manhood and womanhood in generalized terms, but rather, -justify and rationalize why men get to hold all the power over women in churches, and
– why a wife must always submit to a spouse.

Point 2 is particularly irrelevant to never married females.

As I said on another post, I’ve always chatted with never married, childless, adult Christian men on other sites who find nothing of value in gender compism either, because they do not define themselves by having a wife or children.

I don’t think I was telling you to change, merely expressing a differing opinion. Your post was condescending as all get out.

You said,
“it would seem plain that God has instituted a purposeful distinctiveness.”

Bio differences do not necessitate keeping women out of ministry and so forth. It does not follow.

MWorrell wrote:
…God’s obvious decision to make women biological mothers and men biological fathers…

I think that it is because we are of the Class Mammalia and Meiosis (cell division into haploid gametes i.e. containing half the genetic material of the parent cell) is how life on earth works to give genetically unique individuals instead of cloning (vegetative reproduction) like amoebas and ‘hen and chicken’ plants.

But, being a human being is more than whether or not one is male or female. As Christians, we believe Jesus is our example of what it truly means to be human. I am finding that as I tackle being mother to my children, I gain insight into how God loves me as my Heavenly Father.

Apart from obvious physical differences, I don’t think God expects us to be limited by gender. He has a disconcerting habit of going against societal norms to carry out His plans: youngest sons, barren women, a carpenter from Nazareth who, by the way, found greater faith in a foreign woman and a Roman centurion than amongst his own people.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

A man whose caring nature causes his heart to ache and yearn to gestate and suckle a child… should grow up and get over it, and find something God has equipped him to do.

Nick – ???! I remember the actor Dustin Hoffman talking about the overwhelming need/desire he felt to be able to nurse his infant granddaughter – that’s how loving and protective he felt. She triggered a *lot* of oxytocin – and, obviously, love – in him.

I don’t think that wanting to nurture an infant or child in this way is weird or wrong, and neither, I suspect, do you – but it *is* something that is not acceptable (for the most part) for men to admit to or talk about. I’m glad Hoffman did.

As for actually nursing a baby, there are men who are able to produce mil. No kidding.

My guess is that this is all a human thing, not confined to one gender. But it’s “acceptable” for women to do it, not so “acceptable” for men.

  __

“And there was a cloud that shadowed them, and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.” ~ Mark 9:7; Mark 9:6-8 (in Context)

Wartburg,

hmmm…

    The issue here is not one of free speech, the right to assemble, religious freedom, nor free enterprise, for that matter, but one of pastoral accountability.

What?

    Yes. Certain pastors on today’s religious scene have become autonomous in their sphere of influence.  

So What?

    In certain cases these 501(c)3 religious professionals have conveniently removed all other ‘voices’ but their own, thus setting themselves up to disregard any Nathan the Almighty would seek to place in their ministries. 

Whoa!

    ‘History’ discovers this to be a slippery blind venture into madness, and tyranny. 

(sadface)

   One does not have to follow this type of religious tyranny into the jungles of Guyana to contemplate any possible outcome. 

Skreeeeeeeeetch!

    The framers of the American Constitution and the Bill Of Rights, wisely through a thorough examination of what makes for good government while presenting the least amount of interference, and burden in and upon the lives of its fair citizens, framed documents that have stood the test of time for that ‘balanced’ purpose since their ratification. 

Oh.

    The foundational principles found in the bowels of these documents find their bedrock in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. 

ok.

    The principles of the scriptures have held true for the western world…specifically after the Reformation in 1517. 

    The question one should ask is wether these principles, that have stood the test of time for so many years, are worthy of preservation in our churches, and in our nation.

    This is seen as the greatest challenge the Americas and Western Europe faces today.

I pray a favorable outcome.

I N R I *

Iesous Nazoraios Basileus Ioudaios

*

They that has ears to hear, let them hear?

hmmm…

“Let him that hath an ear hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches: To him that overcometh, will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ~ Jesus

ATB

Sopy
___
Notes:
Matthew 27:37 houtos esti Iesous basileus Ioudaios
Mark 15:26 basileus Ioudaios
John 19:19 Iesous Nazoraios basileus Ioudaios; * Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm
Luke 23:38 houtos esti basileus Ioudaios

;~)
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