The Enigma of Beth Moore

Almost any difficulty will move in the face of honesty. When I am honest I never feel stupid. And when I am honest I am automatically humble.
— Hugh Prather 

 

I approach this topic with fear and trepidation. In preparation for this post, I read a goodly number of articles, viewed some talks, and reviewed some blogs. Beth Moore has a veritable army of defenders and they are quite vocal in taking on any perceived (real or not) criticism of her and her ministry. One poor blog writer who had the temerity of question Moore’s theology posted some comments in which a fair number of words had to be bleeped out. Another had this to say. “I have been warned, no, actually I have been threatened; DO NOT write anything negative about Beth Moore”.

 

TWW experienced a few of those unprintable tongue-lashings when we discussed Mark Driscoll. Do these folks actually think this is a Christian response?!!  So, with a deep breath, here I go.
 

 

In the interest of full disclosure, I am not a fan of traditional women’s Bible studies. I couldn’t abide by the rules of BSF, I flunked pencils in Precepts, and I despise women’s conferences in which breakout sessions feature table decorating and scrapbooking. I once joined a church book discussion group, hoping we could discuss books by Tozier, Lewis, etc. Instead they decided to read Jan Karon’s The Mitford Series, which I enjoyed. When I suggested that we look at some of the theology presented in the books, I was told, in no uncertain terms, that the women would not be interested in discussing such things. So, I quit. I just don’t do fill in the blanks very well.
 

I want to state a few things up front. I have no doubt that Moore loves the Lord and is following what she believes to be good and true. In other words, I have no intention on judging her motivation.

 

Secondly, I agree with every article written that says she is an attractive woman. Why articles written about Christian women always mentions their appearance( in Moore’s case:  big hair, French tipped fingernails and lovely clothes) is beyond me. I guess plain women need not apply to be great speakers. But, have no fear; your blog queens will continue to do their part in bringing glamour to the evangelical church!
 

A number of blogs written by women, sadly, criticize Moore for allowing men to be present for her conferences because this means she is a woman who might teach a man. Great Scott! Head for the hills! What is she supposed to do? Have guards who forcibly remove anyone who has a “Y” chromosome? Can’t these big, strong, manly men police themselves? I believe that Scripture does allow women to teach men so I find this criticism to be unimportant.
 

I am also glad that Moore emphasizes the Bible in her teachings even though I do not always fall lockstep with her conclusions.

 

Beth Moore is big business and she, by virtue of her teaching, has set herself up as a role model. She has inserted herself  into the public eye as a Christian role model and teacher. As such, she must be willing to open herself up to being analyzed by the public.
 

 

I am taking most of my information from the August 2010 Christianity Today which did a bang up job looking at Moore’s ministry. The two articles were entitled,” Why Women Want Moore” and “First Came the Bible”. I commend Halle Gray Scott and Sarah Pulliam Bailey for their frank review of Moore’s life and theology. Frankly, I was startled with some things that I learned and I am not sure many Christians are aware of these issues.
 

Mark Galli, the Senior Managing Editor of CT, made some interesting comments in his "Inside CT" column (p. 7). He said that, a few years ago, he was impressed with Moore and decided to assign reporters to do a story on her. However, years went on and no one seemed to be able to pull an article together. He goes on to say. “ We assigned the story to one writer, than another but for different reasons, the story was never completed. Finally, our inimitable online editor, Sarah Pulliam Bailey, managed to pull it off.” I found this an odd comment but, upon reading the article, I have a hunch as to why the others could not write an article. Read the following and decide for yourself.

 

Privacy:

It took several interview requests to achieve an interview with Moore. There was a strict time limit, one hour, and all questions had to be submitted and approved in advance or Moore would not do the interview. The reporter was only allowed access to the ground floor of her ministry and everything else was off limits. Follow up questions that came up after the interview were declined. Frankly, this raises the obvious question. What is Moore afraid of? There is a quote by an unknown author which states, “Truth fears no questions.” Moore should ponder that.
 

 

The tragedy of her son, Michael:
 

This, I believe, is the reason for her paranoia and well it should be. Did you know that Moore adopted a son and then gave him back to his birth mother 7 years later? This shocked me.
 

Due to Moore's reticence to give any information on this subject,  it is difficult to determine the age of the son at the time of adoption. Several sources put him at about 4 years old. In her book, Things Pondered, she says “his name was Michael, that he had developed “alarming behaviors” and that his birth mother resurfaced, strongly desiring to reclaim her son”. (p. 23) She refuses to give any further details.
 

If this is true, than Moore has some serious explaining to do. Can any of you imagine giving away a son whom you cared for and loved for over 7 years??? Does the explanation of “alarming behaviors” excuse such an action? And then  to give him back to the woman who gave him up in the first place? Huh?
 

I am a friend of a family who adopted a biracial infant who had fetal alcohol syndrome. I watched him grow from about 4-14 years of age This boy was hyperactive and needed much medical and psychiatric care. To say his behavior was “alarming” is an understatement. But his mom and dad stood by his side, loving him through the ups and downs and even got him through school. Today he is married and serving our country as a Marine. I know they could never fathom how anyone could give up a child.
 

Does Moore know how this appears? It sounds like she had a boy that needed more than the usual care and attention and she wasn’t willing to hang in there. Can the reader imagine what this does to the psyche of the boy who was given back? One might imagine that he could think that he is “damaged goods.” His own mother rejected him. Recently there was a high profile news story in which the American mother of an adopted Russian boy put him on a plane and sent him back to an orphanage in Russia, stating that she could not handle him. This family was roundly condemned for their action. Here is the story

 

It is interesting that Moore will talk openly about her daughter’s struggle with anorexia. However, anorexia is one of those “understandable” or “good” sins, especially in Texas culture. Radical skinniness is a virtue in the outwardly obsessed, Texas doll-baby ethos. So, it is understandable that a daughter might want to look the part, especially with a skinny, attractive mother. Getting rid of a son with “alarming behaviors” is not as forgivable. Hence we have a possible reason for her reticence in speaking of this matter.

 

 

I strongly believe that if Moore is going to teach others how to live victoriously, she must come to grips with this secret part of her life and be more forthcoming. One person commented that Moore is “completely vulnerable and transparent.” (CT P.23) No she is not. Perhaps there is a legitimate reason for her actions. Unfortunately, I can’t think of one. No wonder she doesn’t want “follow-up” questions.

 

Authority:
 

Moore is described as a “cornerstone” author for Lifeway. Translation: She makes them a lot of moola. As our readers know, the SBC owns Lifeway and Moore must be cognizant of and cater to the tender feelings of the SBC hierarchy. She makes a big point to say that she only teaches women. She addresses men who attend her conferences by stating, “I have no desire to have any kind of authority of you.”
 

I do not think Moore has to take care of the feelings of any guy who wanders into her lectures. This statement strikes me as a sort of apology. Why does she feel she needs to take responsibility for anyone’s actions? It is the man’s choice to be there. But, I would love this Bible teacher to define what in the world she means by having “authority” over a man. How do you speak with and without authority?
 

For example, how does one say the following authoritatively and non authoritatively “David should not have had an affair with Bathsheba.” Let’s see, should she say to men, “Maybe David should not have had an affair with Bathsheba?” Or, “Sorry for saying this but David might not should have had a relationship with Bathsheba.” Or “Deary me, do you think it was a bit forward of David to have an affair with Bathsheba?”
 

 

A Plea for Justice:
 

Moore states she was sexually abused throughout her childhood but she is vague about who did the abusing. Having been involved with several teens who were sexually abused, I am aware of the depths of pain of those who were harmed. Moore teaches others to overcome the pain of these acts, which she calls “strongholds,” and claims she has surmounted such grief in her own life.
 

However, she states that the abuse was never reported to the authorities. I beg her to reconsider this lack of response. We have written extensively on the issue of pedophilia on this blog. Here is link to one such article.

 

The average pedophile abuses over 100 children before he is brought to justice. It is safe to say that her abuser harmed others. Even if he is now dead,  (she gives us no indication on his current or past status) the effects of his heinous behavior lives on in the lives of those he molested. This pain can linger for their entire lives. One only has to look at the Catholic Church to see the long-term pain caused by pedophile priests. The SBC also has a large number of pastors who have abused as well. Please read Christa Brown’s excellent blog stopbaptistpredators.org for further insight.
 

There may be others who are still suffering in silence. I beg Moore to name her molester and report the abuse to the police. If she has truly overcome this stronghold, she should be strong enough to help others who were hurt by the same monster.
 

 

Theology:
 

The article entitled "First Came the Bible" (pp. 27-28)  does a fine job analyzing Moore’s teaching. There are four points that are worth considering.

1. Biblicism:

Moore shows some disdain for theology as seminaries have portrayed it. She is primarily self-taught and believes that Scripture needs to teach Scripture. Although she uses commentaries in her preparation, she claims to use her intuition for applying Scripture.

For the most part, she does stay within orthodox Christianity. However, she could benefit from the history of the development of the doctrine within the church as well as the years of careful scholarship by great theologians to help her guard against heresy and poor exegesis.

 

2.Spiritual Warfare:

“Moore tends to portray humans as victims of sin wither through generational strongholds, bondage from past sins, or increasing oppression by Satan.” She also believes that we are in the last days and that demonic assault is reaching “a whole new level.” (p. 28) Such a statement is not based in fact but in feeling. What is the evidence that Satan is "taking it to a whole new level"? These statements need to be based in evidence, not feelings and emotions. Frankly, way too many Christians like to make a lot of hay that we are living in the last days. Its far more exciting to imagine that then to deal with the possibility that Christ may not return for centuries to come. Frankly, none of us know. We must stop crying wolf.

 

Secondly, this sort of teaching could possibly eclipse the main issue which is our human propensity to sin. We do just fine sinning on our own and we need to focus on our own guilt and the process of sanctification.

 

3.Mysticism:

Moore often states she experiences direct revelation from God and even has conversations with God. (p.28) Scott, the author of this article, makes the following comment. “Readers may believe that direct revelation is normative, and the lack of such experiences means something is wrong.” (p.28) In other words, is God really directly talking or is Moore just pondering?

 

4. Pop psychology:

In her more recent books, Moore seems to share primarily through her own experiences or those of her readers. As Scott observes, her recent books appear to be “long on anecdotes and short on theology and biblical analysis.” (p.28)
 

 

I would like to end on a positive note. I am gratified to see a compelling woman teacher who is drawing women and men to listen to her speak. She emphasizes that all of us should be reading the Scriptures and growing in our understanding. But, it is also important not to make an icon out of Moore. She is imperfect like the rest of us and has some issues that warrant closer scrutiny. 

 

 

Tomorrow, we are excited to be able to present an incredible new guest author. He writes of his experiences as an inmate of a local prison and how he found Christ in the midst of his incarceration.He plans to be an occasional contributor to TWW.

Comments

The Enigma of Beth Moore — 127 Comments

  1. Wow. A bit harsh.

    Just want to comment on the mysticism point. “Direct revelation” is quite a lofty way to put it…. isn’t it simply insights and impressions, even in word form, as a result of spending time reading the bible and seeking to connect with God with all we’ve got? Why should this be a concern to anyone? I’m quite sure this is the means for the inspiration for a good deal of sermons around the world that happen each week. The only alternative is to function with brain only. Quite a limitation.

  2. Elastigirl

    Thank you for your comments.I appreciate that you took the time to express your concern.

    I am not trying to be harsh. I am trying to be real. That can be hard when it involves folks who are loved by the evangelical crowd. But the are not above error. If someone goes public, then they have to be willing to stand the heat of public scrutiny.

    It is interesting that the majority of theologians who comment on Moore mention this aspect of her thinking the most. Moore does not refer to it as simply insights and impressions. She actually says she is receiving direct revelation from God. Here is one statement of many. “And this came as a direct revelation of the Spirit because this would never have come to me. I know God spoke this over me as He began turning through a concordance in my mind and I started thinking about one Scripture after another.”

    Once you start talking about direct revelation then you are talking about the very words of God. Those words cannot be in error. In other words, when the prophets spoke of direct revelation, they were speaking for God.One must be very, very careful when using words such as direct revelation.

    Far too frequently, we hear folks say things like : God told me I am going to be healed of cancer.” Then they die. Or, “We are in the last days” such as Moore has said.How does she know?

    She does not use the word impression and simple insights when she says God told her. if she did, I, and others, would not express concern.

    The word, mysticism, I took directly from the article in Christianity Today. I hope you might take a look at it. These folks are far more gifted than I and I was impressed with their review. You might want to take a look at the following blog: http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2008/05/beth-moore-revisited.html which also outlines some direct words from Moore.

    I hasten to add that I do not agree with everything written in either the above blog but they did give some examples of her own word.

  3. Several years ago I had a deacon question the practice of deacons’ wives helping wash the communion dishes since a woman would be touching the sacred items. Scary, but true. I sometimes wonder if we will get to the place where women and men in Southern Baptist churches will worship in separate facilities to avoid any appearance of women exercising authority over women.

  4. Oh my, not harsh enough! (wink) At least not from my view.

    What is the last deal with Moore? oh yeah…”confidence”. Why need for the Holy Spirit when you can have Beth Moore Confidence?

    The lengths they go to, to protect Moore’s image especially for interviews, etc, is very typical with many celebrity Christians. If you have noticed, those that do not stay on carefully managed talking points, get into a big trouble. (Had Tiger not been so managed, we would have known he was an immature jerk a long time ago)

    So, Beth does not want to be asked any inconvenient questions? That is reason right there for me to avoid her at all costs. I thought she was just down to earth and had nothing to hide?

    Of course Moore is popular. I call this the Soap Opera syndrome. There are women who will insist they know Moore’s character and intentions and defend her to the death. They also believe anything she teaches them (remember, a tiny bit of leaven ruins truth).

    In the Soap Opera syndrome, folks believe they really do know the person on stage. The carefully crafted stage persona is called “image branding” in the world of Christian marketing. Moore is a brand. Lifeway could not get her to crank out books, study materials fast enough. She is a veritable gold mine.

    Millions of women will insist Moore is wonderful based upon this crafted image. (This is true about many other Christian celebrities and only shows how gullible we are and really no different from other groupies who follow their favorite celebrity)

    A few years back, Slice of Laodicea caught her in an embarassing situation. or perahps Moore really is ignorant. It was over her part in the contemplative prayer CD. She claimed she had no idea it was promoting contemplative prayer. The way Moore handled the inquiry about her part in this led me to believe she has the typical image people on board. She gave out a statement saying she was a good baptist girl and did not believe in such things and would never be a part of something like that. But she never gave reason for her part in the project and she went ahead with it. Double meanings…covers many inquiries. Too bad it works with gullible followers.

    (And we wonder how the anti Christs will do it? First you start with biblically ignorant people who do not study on their own, then add a charismatic teacher who is very attractive with a great stage persona….then you add a bit of lie to the truth. Folks will follow them anywhere and make excuses for them)

    The situation about her son is curious. Esp since she has spends so much time focusing on her abuse and her daughter’s problem. We have heard about that ad nauseum. Those are “victim” sins and therefore make one more sympathetic. (And if we care about other kids, why not protect them from this monster?)

    The deal with her son is a whole other problem. I have quite a few friends who have adopted Russian kids with serious problems and yes it is horrible. But they also found a program at a university that deals with these sort of thing.

    I think the problem is that her son’s neediness would have hurt her career and she knew it. She is also not very deep. Her studies are so shallow I cannot imagine bothering with it.

    It is no different than the Warren Syndrome…with so many following that showman. Beth is a showwoman. And she has made a fortune in the Christian marketing world.

    And I ditto your views on women’s studies. Blech.

    Oh, one more thing…to show how DEEP Beth is, one of the questions on her Patriarch study was something like this: What present would you have taken Sarah to her baby shower?

    Seriously? Shallow women eat this stuff up.

  5. BTW: I helped coordinate a BM appearance (that is what I call them. 2 hours on stage for ONE night) and the gate was 495,000. Yep, one half million for 2 hours. (And believe it or not, 2000 women stood in line 6 hours early to get a front seat before the other 7 thousand got there. It caused a horrible traffic jam. There were even ticket scalpers!. Many were trying to sell the 55 buck ticket for 100 bucks and people were paying it!)

    The venue was FREE because it was in a mega church. The church did get a cut off everything sold. But the mega wants BM fans to come to their church…they can get them as members that way.

    After paying security, hotels, travel, staff, PR people, manager, etc, she clears quite a nice chunk of change. Most likely more than 200,000 for 2 hours of work. And this does NOT include royalties from stuff sold at the event.

    BEth is riding a big gravy train. If she taught the deep truths of the Word, she would not be so popular at all.

  6. http://www.extremetheology.com/2010/03/beth-moores-dangerous-bible-twisting.html

    Chris Roseborough does a good job here of showing how BM proof texts and twists scripture to fit her premise. IN this case, he is speaking about her twisting of a few verses in Hebrews 10 and how BM turns it into “self confidence”.

    If people KNEW the Word, this stuff would not work. But most in her audiences have most likely NEVER studied Hebrews on their own.

    (PS: I disagree with Chris when he makes a snide remark about BM and this being why women shoudl not be preachers. Logic demands we acknowledge there have been far more ‘male’ false teachers)

  7. Lydia,

    Interesting info.

    I did two Beth Moore Bible studies with a group of women at my church years ago. Watching the hour long DVD got old because it seemed to be all about Beth instead of all about Jesus. I know those who love Beth will disagree with me, but that’s my take on her Bible studies. Furthermore, I no longer have the patience to answer fill in the blank questions. Give me some meat! Obviously, they are meeting the needs of many Christian women.

  8. Back in my “franchised Christian” years I heard BM speak in Memphis. She talked about giving up the adopted son after years of therapy and trying to love and help him. My memory for details isn’t good but I recall that he had attachment disorder and was violent. She talked about how gut wrenching the decision was to give him back. I don’t remember her mentioning the birth mother at the time but that doesn’t mean she didn’t. My memory is that she returned him to whatever organization she got him from. She cried and said she did this to protect and preserve the rest of her family. It seemed to be a pretty recent event at the time. I couldn’t have a lot of sympathy for her for personal reasons. But I think she pretty much pulled off being a hero with the majority of the crowd.

    It makes sense that she would present the SBC’s “get over it” attitude about sexual abuse since she is a big ticket person with Lifeway and the SBC. She might use her Texas girl bits to please the crowds but she is no fool…she would be out if she didn’t toe the line with the good ol boys.
    I remember she was an engaging speaker but I also remember all the emotion and “cheerleading” type stuff. I didn’t feel like jumping around and clapping about everything. At the time, that wasn’t going on at my “mega” but it soon became the norm.
    I don’t think she is “bad” but she fits the “profile” for where the powers that be would like us to stay as women…and as Christians. She made several “mystical” references that day which I wasn’t use to at the time.
    It seems there is a lot of ignorance along with arrogance in today’s franchised Christianity. How dumb are we to think the creator of the universe needs our kind of marketing and branding to “sell” Him? I don’t blame non believers for not buying into this.

  9. Hi Valarie

    Thanks for your unique insights. Tune in on Thursday when I discuss a Wall St. Journal article on “hip” pastors. It was not very flattering.

    Funny thing about attachment disorders ad violence. The human race had an attachment disorder and God dealt with it by sending Jesus. He didn’t dump us.She did say in her book that she did give him back to his birth mother. I still don’t see how she could give away her own son after 7 years. Her inability to deal with him is suspect. So many people today are heroically caring for Russian orphans who have severe attachment disorders. It is painful and requires much time and effort. Maybe her speaking and writing schedule interfered with her ability to deal with this. I still think this issue needs to be clarified.

    We Christians protest a whole bunch about abortions and encourage adoptions. Her response to her son gives fuel to the fire that Christians talk a good talk about saving children but aren’t always willing to extend themselves when the going gets tough.

  10. Lydia
    I had to laugh when the CT article said that Moore only takes in about 12.9 million each year since Joyce Meyer and Ann Lotz clear a whole bunch more. ONLY 12.9 million? That’s a lot of French tipped nails if you ask me.

  11. Egads- a baby present for Sarah? In her Esther study did she ask what fashion advice you would have given Esther before she went to the king? Casual or cocktail? Hair down or in a chignon?

    No wonder some men don’t take women seriously.

  12. J Carver

    Unbelievable. The SBC is starting to mirror the Pharisees of old. I would love to hear the Scripture the deacon would quote regarding his thoughts.

    I still don’t get what “exercising authority” would look like. Every time I ask the question, I don’t get a straight answer. I am not sure anyone knows the answer to my question.

    Thanks for your enlightening comment.

  13. Every time I see one of these pimps on TV I know what’s comming before the interview is over. Buy my book or tape or seminar or whatever. These people are interested in one thing. Money. Christians have to be either the stupidist or most gullible people on planet earth. I remember Lotz being interviewed recently about daddy and his life. It was nothing but an infomercial for the umpteenth book she has written about Graham senior. The title of this great work was Magnificent Obsession. Now doesn’t that bring a tear to your eye?

  14. “I still don’t get what “exercising authority” would look like. Every time I ask the question, I don’t get a straight answer. I am not sure anyone knows the answer to my question.”

    I have been told by CBMW that it looks like servant leadership. See, they want to be in authority but just not look like they are in authority. :o)

  15. And I know some comp women who teach a class based upon “beautifying yourself for your husband like Esther did”.

    Can you imagine? Taking the rituals of a pagan king and “Christianizing” them?

  16. And Joyce Meyer got nailed and had to pay a bunch of money.

    In any event, seems to me Beth could have afforded to hire lots of professional help for that poor boy she gave back.

  17. My last comments were probably a bit sarcastic so let me apologize to anyone who might follow Moore or any of the other Christian authors.I don’t know what motivates them. It just seems like everybody is out for the fast buck these days.

  18. I have never been to a BM event or read a BM book. They do have that “women’s feel” that one gets in some Christian circles.

    I don’t mind BM at all, and I am glad for her. She seems positive and tries to be biblically based. So, that’s a net positive.

    My own personal taste is not for these women-type speakers. I would rather that women be exposed to deep theology, just as much as men. I always get a queesy feeling when every woman in the church is expected to go for BM, but not want to go to Together for the Gospel. Or Precept, or BSF. Again, I am not against these offerings. I am for them.

    I am just not for them being the ONLY option for women.

    I have a thing about womens’ ministries in churches, too. I would like to hear Dee, Deb and Lydia comment. It seems that whenever a womens’ ministry group forms that no matter what the topic, there is a cultural element that is central to the group, and that the women in the group are expected to follow.

    With guys, you can have a landscaper, a banker, a coach, a doctor, a 50 year old, and a 25 year old. All in the same group. The speaker talks about a topic. But I have rarley seen some cultural norm that all of the guys are supposed to get and follow. They take what they learn and adapt it to their lives as they live them.

    With women, there is always some angle. The speaker or organizers live their lives in a certain way, and the subtle expectation is that the women should do that, too.

    Do you guys ever see that?

    As an example, let me ask this. Do you guys think that an urban, edgy, grad school educated, professional woman would feel comfortable at a BM conference or one of the similar women’s ministry conferences? I get the sense that there would be some cultural barriers that would make it tough for women like that to be fully engaged – unless they got married, moved to the suburbs, had kids, dressed a certain way, did certain things etc.

    The guys that go to hear anyone from Mark Driscoll to Al Mohler to Jerry Vines typically come from a much wider social and cultural spectrum.

    I would like to hear your comments and whether you guys feel any pressure like this.

  19. Bill:

    For what it’s worth, you should not call Ms. Moore a pimp. Not only is it wrong gender, it’s not classy.

    But at least you said that was “a bit sarcastic” which is a good sign. I have posted things that I should not have said and have had to apologize. I think that is a sign of emotional health.

    If we couldn’t do that, then we would really be bad off.

  20. “I don’t mind BM at all, and I am glad for her. She seems positive and tries to be biblically based. So, that’s a net positive.”

    My biggest problem with BM is that she is not really biblically based at all. There is a huge problem in the evangelical world that most cannot spot error because they really do not know scripture at all.

    BM has TONS of error in her teaching. If you listen to the link I gave above, you see a huge one in the way she twists Hebrews 10 to fit her pop psychology premise.

    But really this sort of thing is so typical, BM is just one of many. The danger comes because she is so popular and millions of women hang on her every word.

    All false teachers combine a little error with truth. It is how they last so long. But Jesus said that little bit is pure poison.

    Beth wants you to believe that “self confidence” is being taught in Hebrews 10. That is a lie from the pit of hell. The confidence is in Jesus Christ being our true redeemer.

    False teachers present what we want to hear. That is why we like them. But they are deadly for the soul.

    BM presents us with revelations from God that only she hears and then teaches others as truth. Anyone who knows the Word knows that God was not speaking of self confidence in Hebrews 10.

    I have also noticed that BM is never questioned publicly in a uncontrolled environment.

    This is is a HUGE problem in evangelicalism with our celebrity teachers and pastors.

    I dealt with this all the time in the mega world. The celebrities do not want to be presented with hard questions in theology or in their personal lives. They live in a bubble that their fans helped to create.

    When BM was confronted by Slice, it was by calling her office and leaving the inquiry with a staffer. A day later a faxed statement was sent out that never really answered the question but was a defense of Beth being a good baptist girl who would never be involved in the mystical contemplative prayer movement. But SHE WAS! She went ahead with the project after being warned. So, she lied? Or is she just ignorant?

    No, she was playing the PR game. She knew Slice would post her statement.

    So, being “positive” is a consideration? I know a lot of “positive” Mormons. Truth can be our only consideration.

  21. When I used the word pimp I was referring to anyone that trys to make a fast buck off religion. There are plenty of pulpit pimps male and female and I think you know what I meant with the comment. I do not know what Moores motivation is and I am not her judge but I do have an opinion just like all of us do.

  22. “As an example, let me ask this. Do you guys think that an urban, edgy, grad school educated, professional woman would feel comfortable at a BM conference or one of the similar women’s ministry conferences?”

    One of the reasons BM sells so well is that she cuts across social economic lines of women. The gate had everything from teens to young unmarried career women to old ladies and even men! They all love Beth.

    You don’t make 12.9 mill a year marketing to a very narrow niche. Beth is a performer and entertainer.

  23. First, I will say up front that I have been doing Beth’s studies for 10 years and I have been to several conferences and I have also volunteered as an encourager at her conferences. I have met her and prayed over her and she has also prayed for me and her ministry helped my family a year ago when we were in danger of losing our home. All of that to say that I respect her as a teacher, mentor and friend but I do not idolize her . In fact, the very first conference that I went to the attendees began clapping for her but she told them to give all praise to God and God alone.

    The main thing I want to comment on is this: Michael….if you had taken any of her earlier studies you would have heard her talking about Michael and the heartbreak she endured when he ended up going back to his birth mother, which by the way is a family member. This is their business and none of ours. No one knows the situation or the pain they all endured during this time and again, none of our business. You are attacking her personally all because she is a popular Bible teacher. I have to wonder if she were not so well known if this would even be a concern to you?

    Where does it say that if you are in the public eye (so to speak) that you have to convey every detail of every personal family issue to the public? She is following the calling that God placed on her life. To bring women and if they so choose to sit under her, men to a closer relationship with Jesus. She has no prejudice on denomination. She loves all women and women’s ministry. Again, as I have experienced personally how much she cares for her fellow man or woman.

    I will end with this, I have learned so much from Beth and her love for Jesus is contagious and her daughters are as sweet and kind as their mom. They all have servants hearts(including her staff at LPM) and if you spend 5 minutes with them you will see this.

    Thank you for allowing me to comment.

  24. “Where does it say that if you are in the public eye (so to speak) that you have to convey every detail of every personal family issue to the public? ”

    First of all, BM is the one that talks about herself a lot in her teaching. She makes herself the center of attention. She is the one who uses examples of her life as teaching moments and claims God talks to her. She invites scrutiny.

    I would prefer that teachers not talk about themselves at all but only exposit the Word.

    “She is following the calling that God placed on her life”

    God does not call people to twist His Word. Why not listen to the link I gave above and tell me why Chris is wrong in his analysis of BM’s teaching on Hebrews 10. The problem is that BM takes many verses out of context to fit HER premise.

    Most false teachers are very nice and have great stage persona’s or they would not be so popular. Being nice has nothing to do with truth.

  25. Dee,
    I would venture to say that your blog post falls under the following category of “foolish and stupid arguments”. You are not pointing out a false teacher as you may think. I am not really sure what your motive is other than to exercise your right to freedom of speech.
    She has a great book out called “So Long Insecurity” and I am sure if you wrote her staff they may mail you a copy.

    2 Timothy 2:22-24 (New International Version)

    22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

  26. Bill, Evangelicalism is full of pimps. It has reached epic mass and the seminaires are chugging out new ones every day who hope to rise to the top levels of fame and perhaps a bit of fortune, too..

  27. Hi, Dee.

    I love your blog and read almost daily.

    * I agree that no one is above error, including celebrity christians. However, they are just as vulnerable and feeling as you & me. The issues you mention of the adoption and the abuse from her childhood have to be the most intensely personal and painful of her life. Just because she has talked about them publicly in whatever detail or lack of detail does not mean it’s open season on stark public scrutiny. I should think that if one is going to subject a person like Beth Moore to a public grilling about such intensely private & excruciatingly painful things, a more sensitive approach is in order. Required, if kindness means anything.

    * I read the Watchmans Bagpipes blog, and quite frankly nothing Beth Moore is quoted as having said seems troubling. In fact, to me it is quite the norm. But perhaps this comes down to church culture. I’ve never been to a baptist church, but have always gone to churches of other affiliations and styles on the west coast. I do think that people tend to be suspicious of & reluctant to embrace people, things, methods and styles that are different from what they’re used to… and when “God” is in the picture, it’s a germy hotbed of opinion. I include myself in this observation, to my own regret. Opinion is good and impossible not to have, but an unwillingness to give something different a fair consideration keeps us in a static place and makes us unavailable to truths we had been unaware of. No one has a corner on truth.

    * I agree that some “God told me so”s are questionable if not doubtful. Yet God does communicate with us. It’s just a fact (a super awesome one). Insights can be far from simple. I’ve had some insights or mental pictures that have been very powerful and full of clarity, you probably have, too. I could refer to those as direct revelation, however if I were to share them with someone or with a group and prefaced it by saying “Thus saith the Lord” or “God gave these to me by direct revelation” it would surely provoke alarm bells in any discerning person amongst my audience. However, it would have no bearing on the validity of the content, but rather on the ability of the listener to hear and discern without prejudice.

    * Such fuss about the label “mysticism”. Who has the right to legislate prayer anyway?? It is a highly individual activity. The triune God is revealed in the bible with much clarity, but there is still a good deal of mystery. Where are you, God? Do you hear me? Why can’t I hear you? How one pursues communicating to and with God is unique to the person. American christianity is steeped in and infused with western thought & practice. Jesus was a middler easterner, not a European. While we have the wording of some of his prayers, no one knows what his habit, practice, and posture was (other than he spent much time doing it alone). I’m quite sure it looked & sounded much different from what we see on a typical Sunday morning.

  28. Thanks to Lydia for the link. I listened to the first 20 minutes and Lydia’s right. Beth completely goes off into a direction that has nothing to do with the context of the chapter or the context of the entire book.

    It’s called MEology, not theology. It’s the self-improvement gospel, instead of the glorify God gospel.

    And trust me, it’s not because she’s a woman. There are plenty of men who do the same thing.

    It’s a shame that she butchers the text so badly, because Hebrews is so rich. And when you really consider the context, it’s conveying the exact opposite of what so many misinterpret it to say; that you can lose your salvation. But, the writer is contrasting the temporal nature of the Old Testament with the permanence of Christ’s sacrifice and proclaiming the opposite of that; that we are those who endure to the end, placing our faith in the sacrifice that never has to be made again. It’s so rich and beautiful and uplifting that our confidence in Christ’s work is all the confidence we’ll ever need. She completely misses the point. And it’s when we put our confidence in ourselves that we DON’T have confidence and we doubt. What a shame.

  29. “Such fuss about the label “mysticism”. Who has the right to legislate prayer anyway?? It is a highly individual activity.”

    That is a strange statement considering that Moore promoted Brendan Manning and other contemplatives in her book, When Godly People Do Ungodly Things, who DO claim such things as the path to God. Manning, Richard Foster and others are pantheists. The Word of God is not enough. This is a dangerous road to go down.

    I think people miss the fact that this view (and her view of “self confidence”) totally negate the function of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

  30. “I do think that people tend to be suspicious of & reluctant to embrace people, things, methods and styles that are different from what they’re used to… and when “God” is in the picture, it’s a germy hotbed of opinion.”

    When it comes to Moore, it is a question of her twisting the Word to fit her premise. That has been proven if you care to investigate. It has nothing to do with methods or who I like or don’t like. We are not to embrace or excuse false teachers because we like them. We are guardians of truth. Not diplomats. We should always love Jesus enough to defend the truth of His Word to us.

    I would agree that we can overlook quite a few things but twisting the Word to fit a premise is not one of them. We are accountable if we go along with that. And we are accountable if we do not know better because we do not know the Word well enough to tell if it is being twisted. Paul commended the Bereans for questioning him. Why? Because it was only truth that Paul was concerned about.

    We should WANT people to mature spiritually through the Word. Problem is, we have to wean them off their celebrity teachers, first. And encourage them that Jesus Christ said He was sending the BEST TEACHER: The Holy Spirit. For free!

  31. Wow – you people are MEAN! When you can fill a venue with over 20,000 women who are blessed beyond measure and have genuine hearts to worship and study together, someone may listen to you.

    Otherwise, I may just need about 1/2 of a baby aspirin to “get over” this pointless scrutiny…

    Don’t kick her down – she is NOT your enemy. You do know there is an Enemy out there, don’t you?

    Spend time on fighting that enemy of our souls…not one who is being used in a mighty way as an encourager.

    A Christ follower

  32. We certainly should not be mean to our sister in Christ, I agree.

    False teaching and error, though, should be exposed and corrected, both to the one teaching error and to the ones who have heard and have been deceived by it. I think that was the original intent, here.

    By pointing out the error, it heightens the awareness of those reading here to listen and study more critically concerning what Beth Moore and what other teachers and pastors are sharing.

    It is not loving and kind to let a generation of undiscerning women have the wool pulled over their eyes with MEology. It’s time they mature in Christ and stop drinking the Koolaid, I mean milk.

    “When you can fill a venue with over 20,000 women who are blessed beyond measure and have genuine hearts to worship and study together, someone may listen to you.”

    Have you filled a venue with over 20,000 women who were blessed? I need the answer to know whether or not you’re qualified enough for me to consider your points.

    I am happy that there are that many women desiring to study God’s word. But are they GETTING God’s word taught to them when, in the valid example Lydia shared, she plucks verses out and applies them completely out of context and pretty much makes them fit what HER message is, rather than conforming her message to God’s word, contextually? With 20,000 women present, all the more reason why these errors should be discussed.

  33. Patty:

    Great comments. I did not go there on purpose, and primarily because I don’t know that much about Ms. Moore.

  34. I think that Dee and Deb will welcome you Beth Moore supporters. I am glad that you are chiming in.

    This blog group can be tough. It’s good to see some different thinking.

  35. Read Matthew 6-7 very close before you think having 20,000 women hang on your every word is a blessing. Pay close attention to the end of Matt 7.

    Besides, you guys forgot to call me hateful and jealous, too. Ad hominem is always popular these days but once again, I ask either one of you to explain how Beth has NOT twisted Hebrews 10 in the linked teaching. If you are familiar at all with Hebrews in context, there is no way you can agree with what BM is teaching.

  36. Michael:

    I don’t think that the people who have objected to some (not all) of the observations of this blog and some of the comments are arguing the point that Beth Moore never made a mistake about the scriptures.

    I am sure that we could pick at the interpretation of various passages that every pastor or speaker in America has addressed. I do that every morning when I catch Chuck Swindoll or Adrian Rogers etc. Sometimes they, and others, miss the boat in may opinion.

    I see the objections addressing the points related to Ms. Moore’s adoption, how much money she makes, etc. Those are personal matters. I even think that Dee and Deb in raising them did no harm. They just raised them and asked “why not say more?”

    But I feel certain, since Ms. Moore disclosed it from the beginning of her ministry and from what little I have seen just posted here, that for me it is a personal, family matter that doesn’t need to be discussed further.

    I, also, feel that the money issue and calling people pimps is not where we should be going.

    Finally, I do think that some of the nitpicking and cheap shots may be born out of some hypercritical personalities that we simply have to live with because we are not going to change any adults here on this blog.

    But discussing the teaching and such. That’s fair game in a public ministry.

  37. Michael:

    Analyzing the teaching is not mean.

    Calling someone a pimp is mean, isn’t it?

    Hectoring someone over a failed adoption is either mean or at least is bad social form.

    Don’t you agree?

  38. Here we go again. Need I expound once more on this point? “Bitter” is a word that is chronically used to shut down conversation. It is tactic used by spiritually abusive churches that has subtly made its way into the Christian mainstream. Frankly, it is a term used by the unimaginative when they are unable to argue their points of view in a rational manner. Please, ladies, show the world that Christians can debate a topic without descending into silly adjectives which have absolutely no basis in fact. You do not know us and do not know we if we are bitter.

    Now, I am waiting for the typical follow-up comment. “Well, if people are accusing you of being bitter, then you must be.” YAWN

    Also, if you insist on using this overused pronouncement, at least show some thoughtfulness and use synonyms takes some thought. I personally like the word, “mordant.” It has a Lord of the Rings appeal.

  39. Lydia:

    Criticizing the teaching is not mean, I agree. That’s fair game.

    But calling her a pimp? Isn’t that mean?

    Pointing out (or trying to claim to know, whichever it is) how much money she makes is Ad hominem, isn’t it?

  40. Patty,

    I’m glad Beth Moore has been a blessing in your life; however, I’ll be frank. When I read the CT article and discovered that Beth had given up her adopted son after raising him for SEVEN years, I was stunned! Why? Because she holds herself up as a Bible teacher, instructing countless women around the world on how to live the Christian life. What if her followers follow her lead and do the same?

    My heart breaks for this young man, and I am keeping him in my prayers.

  41. This blog is open to all comments even the most difficult. Maybe it is time for Christians to hear things that they are protected from in their holy huddles.

    I have spent a large amount of time on sites such as Ex Christians.net in which people verbalize, sometimes crassly, why they have left the faith. It isn’t pretty but it is real.

    This site is not church. It is a place where people can come to express their thoughts, even if we don’t like them. We have published, at length, things that Mark Driscoll has said that would make the word “pimp” seem like good manners.

    I do not think anything I said was deliberately mean but can understand how “sensitive” types might cringe from thoughtfully spelled out critique.

    So, let’s get off the MIss Manners discussion and get back to the matter at hand. Seeking honesty and truth is hard but I think most of our readers can handle it.

    Also, this blog does not necessarily endorse the comments it receives. This is a blog. It is a stream of people’s thoughts.

  42. Anonymous

    BM organization is required to report its income. So is your church. The information is publicly available. Christianity Today published her income.How in the world is that ad hominem?

    Ad hominem attacks have nothing to do with subject at hand. It is personal .Here is a potential ad hominem attack. “Obama is stupid” instead of simply arguing the point.

  43. In light of the current discussion, I thought it might be helpful to take a look at what Almighty God has to say about teachers in His kingdom.

    “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.” James 3:1 (NASB)

    According to God’s admonition, He will hold Beth Moore to a higher standard because she has elevated herself as a Bible teacher.

  44. I think it would be great if more teachers of the Word did not take the big money. I think it really hurts credibility for all Christians…Her credibility is not hurt with her followers, of course.

    But then, BM does not even really know the Word. Most of it is pop psychology, (Meology as Michael terms it) or mysticism with her “revelations” from God.

    I remembered that Bob Dewaay pointed out some other BM error years back. It only proves she does not understand scripture or twists it to fit her premise.

    http://www.erwm.com/BobDeWaay5.htm

  45. The adoption subject is tough because we don’t know all the facts. But it is relevant to bring up that fact, without passing judgement on her, to consider as a part of her credibility. It might help if she was more transparent about it, but it might be too painful for her to do that, and she may not feel she needs to inform people. Whether she does or doesn’t, it’s a losing game for her.

    Calling someone a pimp IS mean. I agree. However, it might be the most accurate description of actions taken, when you consider the amount of money made.

    Calling religious leaders hypocrites, snakes, brood of vipers, is pretty mean, too, as well as swinging a whip at them, but not sinful. If you think it is, you can talk to Jesus about that. He’s the one who did those things, appropriately.

  46. It might be that her judgement is simply what is happening here; that believers who are familiar with her teaching are accurately judging the biblical merits of her teaching, good or bad. There is a responsibility to discern whether she’s on track or not, correcting where she’s off. I agree that it would be ideal if people were more kind, but I understand their impatience because of how pervasive these problems of excessive profits and man-centered erroneous teachings are in the church.

  47. Elastigirl (Your name reminds of a superhero)

    Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

    -On the issue of Beth Moore’s son : Moore brought this up for discussion. She wanted people to “understand” her and as you said, came off as a hero in a particular conference. What if someone else has a different take on what she said? Is that being unkind? I have not been a follower of Moore and had neither negative or positive things to say about her until I read the CT article. I don’t like her explanation and find it strangely lacking for a woman who claims to have said good-bye to insecurity.

    She brought it up in front of thousands and has written about in in a book probably read by millions. I don’t see how my blog asking for clarification is lacking in sensitivity. It is a simple question and concern.Frankly, I was shocked by the revelation and I think that is an honest and understandable response.If I had the reaction, I am sure many others felt the same way. I just happen to have a blog. I think she is a big girl and can deal with some little blog raising a question.

    -On the subject of direct revelation:

    I find it troubling when someone gets a direct revelation that we are in the last days and that Satan is on the rise. Prophets of God need to have their revelations tested. She makes these statements without any explanation. I could make the case that, based on circumstances, that Satan was on the rise during the time of Hitler, the Inquisition, the time of the persecution on the early church, etc. I guess I get tired of people making comments that we are in the last days with such assurance.If someone makes these comments and they are wrong, couldn’t we claim that they are not hearing from God and are making this stuff up?

    -I have no trouble with looking at new ways to do things. However, I don’t see anything that Moore is doing as being “new”.It seems more of the same-her Bible studies are not ground breaking and her psychology is recycled. My raised concerns have nothing at all to do with something being new. In fact, the Bible is correct: there is nothing new under the sun.

    -I was raised in a liberal non-Christian family so I don’t have biases from a childhood church upbringing.In fact, I was raised in Massachusetts which I think rivals California in its liberalism. Also, I was only Baptist for about 10 years, total. I am nondenominational in my outlook.

    -I do not like cultural mores being imposed on Christianity. I agree that much of what passes for the faith these days is simply mimicking the culture at large.Much of what Jesus taught was definitely at odds with His culture which is the reason He was crucified.

    -However, I don;t think we can infer things about Jesus’ prayer life that is not printed in Scripture. He was part of a Triunity and His relationship within the Godhead is something that we cannot fathom. I am not sure we can make a judgement on what constitutes biblical prayer based on what we do not know about Jesus’ actions in His private times. My guess is that we are not told because it might not be particularly relevant to our conversations with God.

    Once again, i thank you for your thoughtfulness.

  48. Beth seeks publicity. She also talks about herself excessively. To say that speaking of her income of 29 million is mean or using the word pimp, which is tacky, makes the point of what a false teacher does who rakes in the money for presenting a false Gospel (a little poison ruins it all). It is USING Jesus for personal gain whether she realizes it or not.

    She might be deceived but she might also not be. But the bottomline is that much of her teaching is false using proof texts out of context to fit her premise. (We have not even touched on her recommending “chanting” each day or her “blue bracelet” weirdness. Sounds like Kabballah! It is nothing but showmanship and entertainment. And deceived women flock to it and pay to be taught this drivel.

    She brought up the adoption herself. She is the one who puts her life in the spotlight. So folks who wonder what the facts are about a teacher of the Word who gives back an adopted child, are mean?

    You might want to consider these facts when you are looking at teachers of the Word:

    Of the 210 verses that refer to false prophets, priests, elders and Pharisees, here is a summary of their content:
    • 99 verses (47%) concern Behavior
    • 66 verses (31%) concern Fruit
    • 24 verses (12%) concern Motives
    • 21 verses (10%) concern Doctrine
    -Dr. Paul Martin

    I hardly ever recommend teachers or books because I want folks in the Word..alone. But some folks have to have human teachers. For a real female theologian, I recommend Carolyn Custis James. Her book, The Gospel of Ruth is incredible.

    Carolyn is committed to encouraging women to become Theologians…as in study the Word deeply on their own with the Holy Spirit illuminating truth with prayer. If they would, there would be fewer BM types out there.

    http://files.whitbyforum.com/carolyn.html

    But she is only a human and everything she teaches MUST be tested. I have tested her teaching but I recommend each person do their own testing as in being a Berean on ALL teaching.

  49. Anonymous

    Are you suggesting that I need to swallow what someone says and not question? Are you suggesting that to question an explanation is kicking someone? Do you believe that 20,000 people attending a conference constitutes Christian validity?

    If so, then you may be in for some surprises in your life. For example, Gwen Shamblin drew thousands to hear her speak. Her programs were endorsed by all manner of churches. She helped many to come to faith while following her diet program. Yet, after many years, she was proven to be a false teacher. The same goes for others such as the Ezzos.

    Scripture is quite clear that we are to question what is being put in front of us. That means everything and everyone. Scripture also teaches us that each one of us is fallen and is a sinner and that means BM as well. we should question what she says.

    Also, I am a Christ follower as you claim to be. i read the article in Christianity Today. This post is my reaction. I can assure you that if I feel this way, so will others. I believe that BM is a big girl and can handle our critique. I am more concerned about some of her followers. Way too many folks base their faith on their leaders. When their leader is called into account, followers can feel threatened because they have based much of what they believe on the image of their teacher. If the teacher falls, the faith of the followers falls.

    That is why our faith needs to be in Christ not in BM, Rick Warren, Billy Graham, etc.

    BTW we do feel that we are spending time fighting the enemy. The enemy is very clever and is alive and well and present in what we believe to be Christian circles.

    Following Christ; not man.

  50. Jenny

    Good night, woman! Where in the world did you see where I said she was a false teacher! Your response in not based on fact but on pure emotionalism. In fact, it is you that needs to read the book on insecurity. I raise a few questions about a woman who you obviously admire and become so enrages you use words like foolish and stupid. You even suggest you know what my motive might be. You don’t and I don’t know yours.

    You show your ignorance of my arguments by using pejorative words. In fact, to “anonymous” who is fussing about ad hominem attacks, here is a prime example.

    Do you really want to play dueling Bible verses? Surely you are well read enough to know how easy it is to find verses to justify just about anything. From James 1 we read

    19 My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.

    So, Jenny, I would love it if you would try agin by presenting a cogent argument refuting my thoughts.

  51. Lydia

    It is fascinating to see the response by some followers of Moore.Instead of arguing the issues raised, they use the superficial responses of emotionalism. Foolish, stupid, bitter, mean, etc.

    Why don’t they argue the points? Is this why men use the excuse that women are gullible and easily deceived?

    I know how I reacted when I read the CT article. I was shocked about the story of her son. If I was so taken aback, I know that others were as well. Does she get a pass because she is cute and likable?

    So many people base their faith in a person. If that person does something wrong, they must be protected at all costs. If not, the person who follows them finds their faith being challenged.

    When will we learn that we must follow Jesus and His perfection. He will never fail us or let us down. We don’t have to defend HIm. His life speaks for itself.

  52. Valarie

    You are absolutely correct when you speak about the SBC attitude on sexual abuse as being “just get over it.” The SBC refuses to set up a sexual predator data base that will list pastors who were convicted of sexual abuse, pedophilia, etc.

    I know a church that refused to believe that a seminarian could be a sexual predator, calling a young man who reported him…crazy. Until a year later they found out this guy grossly violated many young teen boys in the church. He was jailed. The pastors involved are still running around claiming they had no idea. They didn’t even offer the kids professional counseling until they were embarrassed into doing s. They still claim the parents of the young boy were not telling the truth about reporting this.

    And there are women here who say i need to be battling the enemy instead of pointing out concerns about Christian leaders.
    I have seen way too much to back down. All Christians need to question their leaders and teachers. Also, teachers are supposed to be called to a higher standing. So, BM should not get her panties in a wad if a few obscure people like us question her.

    She, as a survivor of sexual abuse, should question why her denomination isn’t doing more to help those who are harmed by pedophiles in the church.Hope she is.

  53. Anonymous

    I absolutely agree that there is a strong cultural component to many women’s ministry programs. here is a funny example. years ago I went to a women’s night at a church. The speaker was well-known local women’s church speaker (not nationally known.) While she was speaking, I began to feel a sense of deja vu. And then it hit me. This woman was mimicking the inflections and hand gestures of Ann Graham Lotz. Darned if she didn’t have it down pat, right to the finger about the top lip with an arched eyebrow pondering look.

    I know we are supposed to look for good role models but does that mean to become the role models? Needless to say, I didn’t attend anymore of her talks. if I want Lotz I would go hear Lotz not some pretender.

  54. Bill
    There are a lot of people who have been hurt by pastors who were in it for the money and the fame. You spoke from the heart. I think it is about time that leaders hear how their actions can hurt.

  55. Lydia
    Thanks for the recommendation. The book sound great.
    What is the blue bracelet weirdness? i somehow overlooked that.

  56. Michael

    In the post, I said some nice things about Moore. Then, I questioned some of her actions and words.The problem with questioning an admired leader is this. A simple question is taken as a full fledged frontal assault and the troops swing into action, believing that they must go to war over simple questions.

    I think it is legitimate to question our leaders in as straight forward a manner as possible.She is a leader who puts herself in front of thousands. Shouldn’t one of the thousand occasionally raise a comment?

    It is fascinating to see what happened on other blogs when others tried to raise a couple of questions on Moore. Some of the comments that we received show a singular lack of Christian thoughtfulness. If this is how her followers respond to questions, then I must question what, exactly, are they learning?

  57. I appreciate the forum to bring these things to light.

    I found that in our former church, the leaders monopolized the whole conversation through sermons, announcements, bulletins, web info, and the spinmeisters spun a web of deception that nobody could debunk because their was no medium to voice a contradictory view. If you did it in a business meeting, you were alienated and made out to be the bad guy.

    So keep questioning and keep writing because it is truly beneficial. And thank the Lord that there is controversy because that’s when you know you’re actually making a difference.

  58. I think it is only fair that I make it clear that I am the one who calls Moore a false teacher. I take full repsonsiblity for that statement. I have provided a few links to show a few of her errors that are very serious. There are tons of BM error and almost all spring from proof texting to fit a premise, claiming God speaks to her things she must tell people and her penchant for mysticism ala Richard Foster, Brennan Manning, Dallas Willard, etc. (Willard calls the Blood Atonement “vampire Christianity”. All are false teachers who say some really good things mixed in with their error)

    I honestly do not think that the millions of Beth followers can recognize her error. Let’s face it, false teachers don’t come on wearing a red tail. They mix truth with error and it always sounds good. That is why it works. Evangelicalism is absolutely exploding with such false teaching. And it has gone on so long that many have no clue because they have chosen not to study on their own seriously seeking the deep truths of the Word.

    The blue bracelet was a gimmick at one of her shows that she wanted them to wear to remind them to pray or perhaps it was to chant something…I cannot remember…but I do remember it reminded me of Kaballah. It only made me wonder if Beth is aware of the function of the Holy Spirit in a believers life?

  59. Lydia

    It does sound a bit like Kaballah, doesn’t it. I seem to recall Madonna going through her Kaballah red bracelet phase. It seemed rather funny, her dancing combined with Jewish mysticism. Talk about strange bedfellows!

    BTW, I have no trouble with BM being called a false teacher. i am more concerned that commenters get so bent out of shape that they don’t read what is really being said. I personally need to read a bit more on Moore.

    I thought of you the other night when I was falling asleep and I couldn’t stop laughing. Why? Do you remember the comment you made about you being 5’11” and Russell Moore being a small guy and how you could fling him over your shoulder and carry him (I think it was during some discussion on the roles of women)? For some reason, a picture of said event flashed into my mind and for some reason, I could almost here him yelling, PUT ME DOWN,WOMAN! There I go, laughing again.

  60. Michael
    That is why they hate bloggers. The internet equalizes the deck and allows for all sides to be heard. The world has changed and pastors and teachers must now understand that they will be held accountable for their actions. I happen to know a few who are none too pleased.But they are big boys and should be able to deal with it.

  61. Dee,

    Here’s information on the blue bracelet. I had never heard of it before now. BTW, I don’t need to purchase this $25 bracelet to be reminded of God because I think of Him constantly.

    http://www.hiscreationsjewelry.com/products.asp?cat=35

    “Beth Moore Purity Bracelet

    I have named this piece the “Purity Bracelet”, because it was inspired by Beth Moore’s book, Believing God. In the study of this particular book, Beth Moore recommends that you wear a blue bracelet as a reminder of God’s laws, to trust Him, and to help you remain obedient.

    The scripture (below) I use for this piece is found on page 35 and was discovered by her teenage daughter who was struggling to stay pure. This would make a wonderful gift for a young woman graduating from high school, or at her confirmation. It will also be a great reminder to trust and obey God for any woman, young or old.

    Numbers 15:38-39 Throughout the generations to come you are to make tassels on the corners of your garments with a blue cord on each tassel. You will have these tassels to look at so you will remember all the commands of the Lord, that you may obey them.”

  62. Dee,

    Surprise, surprise! You can order the Believe God Bracelet from LifeWay. Check this out:

    http://www.lifewaystores.com/lwstore/product.asp?isbn=0633160407

    “The Believe God Bracelet with its sterling silver and blue beads is a reminder to trust God with everything. It can also help you share with others what it truly means to Believe God. Designed exclusively for LifeWay Christian Stores. Reproduction is prohibited. ©2003.”

    Type: Jewelry
    ISBN: 0633160407
    Product No.: 005009698
    Price: $38.00

  63. Deb

    OK, its time to start our own line of glamorous accouterments.

    Rhinestone pen: $35 to remind us to fill out our workbooks

    Rhinestone lip ring: $100- to remind us to always say things “nicely”and never, ever be mean

    Rhinestone studded model of the Wartburg castle:$250 for our readers to think about us every day(while we are on our cruise paid for by the proceeds

    Rhinestone studded front door mat: for those who follow the patriarch model

    I have so many thoughts. The Wartburg Gift Shop:to be open for business soon!

  64. Deb

    Further comment: I figured out a possible reason why BM will not let anyone into her building above the first floor. She might be running one of the fulfillment centers for the “As Seen on TV” products. You know, like Slap Chop, Magic Jack and Sham Wow! One must have a sense of humor about these things.

  65. Thanks for equalizing.

    Another way things were dealt with around here was an anonymous sarcastic newsletter with a Pinocchio in various forms, called a Truthmeter. The slogan was, “We meant to mislead you, we just didn’t count on being caught. It was sent to one deacon only. Since only one leader got it, no one could accuse someone of distributing it to the membership to be divisive. If we found out that someone else heard about it, we knew that one of the leaders was responsible for sharing it.

    Even though only one person got it, the church leaders didn’t know that no one else got it, so it was always a threat. It was a way of saying, “We know you’re lying and you better stop, or this could certainly go out.”

    On a side note, I hope everyone will celebrate with me today, since two years ago, today, I was infomed that the leaders were kicking me out of church. It’s not popular among deacons or the pastor to be able to prove that the pastor repeatedly lied and for them to know that I had guts enough to let others know exactly how he did lie.

    It was the hardest thing my wife and family had been through, but God was merciful and gracious, restored us completely, prospered us, and brought us to a wonderful church. We’re happy to be where we are, but not happy about how we got here.

  66. Michael

    Welcome to the Fellowship of the Wounded. Although we quit before we could be kicked out, the pastor called a new church we were considering and said enough that we were not invited to join the church. So even if you can get away, they chase you. We, too, had proof of a lie, on tape, yet. We played it for the “leadership” but they stared blankly, refusing to believe the tape. However, the tape exists, for time and for eternity. Someday, they will have to face the ultimate truth.

    All this to say Michael, there are a whole bunch of us out here who have been shocked, let down, and hurt by admirals in rowboats; small men who find power by ruling over insignificant churches yet who believe they are someone “in authority.”

    Our thing happened 1 1/2 years ago. However, it brought us back to a wonderful church in which we have found freedom and peace. They also know what I am doing here and they are aware of what happened at our old church.

    So, we are with you and your wife, Michael. Our thoughts and prayers are with you tonight.

  67. Michael,

    I echo what Dee has shared.

    I’ll never forget Dee’s phone call immediately after meeting with the pastor at her new church. Yes, I was the first person she called, and what her former pastor did was ugly!

    There is a secret play book out there; however, we’re now recognizing the schemes of these hyper-authoritarian pastors, and we’re calling them on it!

    Isn’t it strange that we can now celebrate the injustices done to us? Let’s help others see God’s truth here at TWW.

  68. Patty

    Why does his going back to his birth mother who happens to be a family member make any difference? She states that this woman “resurfaced” after some years. Just because she shares DNA with Moore doesn’t mean she is any more valid to take back a child she gave up. I find this whole thing bizarre.

    The moment you walk into the public eye, hold yourself up as a teacher, sell your studies to churches and other group, and make over 12 million a year from the public, you are going to be asked questions. You are right. If she wasn’t famous, we wouldn’t ask questions. She could have kept herself in relative obscurity and then she wouldn’t risk being asked difficult questions.But, she likes the limelight except when it focuses on issues that she cant control.

    Also, she told the story. She asked the question of being able to share just a little and not be expected t say more. Well, I answered her and said no. When you talk about something weird, I want to know more. And, if you are a mother, don’t you, deep down inside, think it is a little bit weird to give away your little boy after raising him for 7 years!!! If a secular female politician had done it, the Christian women’s groups would be outraged. But not when its one of their own. And, don’t forget, she is the one who talked about it first. Not me.

    Finally, she is the one who won’t allow “follow-up” questions. Why? because she knows the questions will not be easy. She wants the questions spelled out. No surprises. She is trying to control the questions but she can’t do it forever.

  69. Dee and Deb:

    Thank you for your kind and compassionate words. It IS strange that we can celebrate. I am celebrating, not what the enemy meant for evil, but how God was glorified in it.

    I feel for you, Dee. It takes time for wounds to heal and I understand the desire for vindication. Let it come, Lord. I know that the pain inflicted on you and your family has become a well of life, where mercy is shown to victims and God’s care is revealed to others. And I’m glad to know you’re in a good fellowship.

    God has truly brought us through these hurtful times and prepared a table for us in the presence of our enemies. He has healed my wife; He has helped our marraige; He has restored multiple times what was lost; my kids have matured through it.

    Thank you both for pulling the veil back on the evil done in secret by prideful and ignorant people. I’ll do my best to be right there with you, uncovering these ills and empowering believers.

    Thank you for celebrating with me, today, what God has accomplished.

  70. I’m sorry but the ability to gather 20,000 people into one place proves nothing to me. Benny Hinn can do it. So can Joel Osteen. And Billy Graham. And that flake on PBS during pledge week with the globes and such behind him as he tells you how to center yourself to achieve spiritual happiness.

    Crowd size doesn’t equate with spiritual truth.

    IMNERHO

  71. Glad to amuse. But it is reality. Not long ago I was in a meeting where Moore spoke. (Ironically, subject was Adoption. And my 90 year old uncle kept referring to him as ‘that little guy from the seminary’)

    Moore comes to about my shoulder and that is with his elevator shoes on. I would be stunned if he weighs 100 lbs.

    Now, that may sound mean…but if you are listening to this man pontificate on the need for MORE patriarchy and the leadership and protection role males must play for women, one cannot help but get the giggles…if he is standing there…all 5 ft of him in his elevator shoes.

    Bruce Ware, the one who teaches that unsubmissive wives trigger abuse from their husbands (even Christian ones) is also about 4’9ft tall. A little patriarch who teaches big scary things.

    It really is not a stretch for me to see these guys, hear their masculinists teaching and think that my almost 6ft person might just have to save them if there was a crisis. They certainly would not be saving me! (wink)

  72. Can you say, money changers?

    I get so sick of this stuff. People actually feel more holy because they wear a special bracelet or have a plastic fish on their car. My favorite are the breath mints shaped like Crosses that all mega churches sell in their gift sho…er…uh…I mean book stores.

    It is the same with so many Christian speakers who are raking it in…buy my book, do my study and folks think they are not only more holy but they really think they are learning truth! But they never check it in depth because that takes too much time. How much easier it is to follow a human! And they PAY them to teach them what they should be doing themselves!

    Check out the museum of idolatry. That is what this stuff is…like the bracelet…it only proves that Moore does not understand the function of the Holy Spirit…

    http://www.alittleleaven.com

  73. That’s hilarious. But I have to admit that I did that – when I was 18 learning to preach!!!!

    Hopefully, we learn to “be ourselves” as we age.

  74. Even though I complimented them, don’t let the bitter comment shut down discussion.

    Someone can say it, but the other person can respond.

    Personally, I don’t care for suspicions about motives and attitudes. Especially if the only way we know someone is by a few internet postings.

  75. Dee,

    I agree. The discussion about the teaching is really fair game.

    Also, I don’t mind the mentioning of the adoption and all, but there does seem to be an explanation that has been shared previously by Ms. Moore. With that, unless someone can dig up something else (and I don’t mind them trying – remember Ergun Caner), let’s leave off the adoption thing and money (again, unless there is something more here than speculation and inuendo).

    But the teaching is definitely fair game.

  76. First, my church, or any church, is not required to report its income. Check with your church’s lawyer.

    BM ministry is. There is a difference.

    The ministry may be required to report the income, but I don’t know that Ms. Moore’s personal returns and income are public information. I don’t believe that personal returns are public information. Isn’t that why Presidential candidates have to give permission to release their returns? (note: Ms. Moore may have given permission for all I know.)

    And just because the income for the ministry may be correct, it is ad hominem. If one is debating another’s ministry, whether they teach correctly and such, to bring up how much money they make in the context of your blog post is a smear.

    I suppose if the post were about money and how much various ministries made, it would not be. I think that another blog did that recently, and I found it interesting. But if person did a post, say, on Billy Graham, his background teaching etc., and some posted a comment – “yea, and did you know he rakes in $1,500,000 (or whatever) that would clearly be ad hominem.

  77. Lydia:

    Although I have said other things about – I agree with you completely. It would be MUCH better if they did not take big money. I cannot tell you how much I agree with you on that.

  78. I agree, Michael. Despite that I do not care for the some of the things that were said, this blog has been helpful, even though I don’t follow BM, haven’t read a book and won’t ever hear her speak.

    I like Lance Armstrong’s yellow bracelets.

    I ride with one of Lance’s doctor friends who is on his foundation board. I don’t know where all that money goes, but I suspect it goes to cancer research and such.

  79. Lydia:

    I am sincerely grateful to your pointing out the teaching issues. Keep it up. I will never read one of her books or hear her speak, but at least I know something about her teaching now. The other guys that you mention, I do know about. I am not into that stuff.

    Oops. Got to get to yoga class. Namaste!

  80. Anonymous

    No can do. She brought it up. She asked for understanding. I don’t understand. So, I am still asking the question.

    Here is a thought.

    We know that Moore makes a great deal of money. This is not meant as pejorative. It is fac

    If the boy was so violent, why couldn’t she have hired a full time, 24 hour aide? Also, why didn’t she take time off from all teaching and care for the least amongst us-her son? Maybe she did but she sure is not telling us. Why not?

    This issue got brought up with Amy Grant’s divorce. Her husband was a problem, no question. But, as a teacher with Campus Crusade once said to me, she never once, in all of the battles, stopped her concerts. They were more important to her.And then, after the divorce, she had an affair with Vince Gill and was named as an accessory in his divorce. Yet, so many Christian women defended her.

    Anyway, I am stubborn. You need to convince me why i shouldn’t be.

  81. Anonymous
    There is nothing you can say that will ever shut us up. We are merely educating others who read this blog, and there seem to be more and more, how the current hyper authoritarian crowd uses tactics to shut down communication. It is time to deal honestly with one another and we are making sure people know the rules of the game.

  82. Nope, disagree totally. In order to understand a ministry we must know what pressures come to bear on such a ministry. We have written extensively on the income of various ministries and we believe that income does affect how people conduct ministry.

    Ad hominem is when you say-She makes 12.9 million dollars and she is in it for the money. Or She is a typical rich Texas babe.

    Why would you say that her reported earning constitute a smear? Why does it make you feel uncomfortable?

    Also, the amount of money she makes gives a picture of the extent of the success for her ministry.

  83. BTW
    Correct on your point. The church is not required to report its income but must report the salaries paid to the pastors including benefits such as housing allowance.

    The church must also file forms tax exempt the church from reporting but must be cautious in its activities. If they engage in overt political activity, including endorsement of candidates or they run a business which generates regular income.

    Also, if any church does not allow any member to see its income,salaries, expenses, that church should be avoided at all costs.

  84. Egads! I didn’t know that. Wendy Zoba wrote an excellent article in Christianity Today about Amy’s excuse for getting a divorce. She claimed that, although the Bible spoke against divorce, God spoke to her and told her it was OK. Whoops, gotta go, I just heard God tell me that it was OK to shoot my neighbor’s dog who is barking. Its upsetting my pug dogs.

  85. Can you please provide a reference for “Bruce Ware, the one who teaches that unsubmissive wives trigger abuse from their husbands (even Christian ones)…”

    Thanks.

  86. JT
    Start here at Ethics Daily.

    http://ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=12922

    If you need more, let us know. This is an infamous statement and has been written about extensively in the blogosphere. Hit Google and have a field day.

    He is just another ho-hum Calvinista at Southern Seminary. I am amazed that so many Baptist churches and pastors follow this nonsense. No wonder we look like fools to the world. Unfortunately, not fools for Christ; just fools for fools’ sake.

  87. Lydia

    I understand Patterson is a little guy as well. Am I misinformed? Wouldn’t it be weird if this strange patriarchal doctrine was made up by some guys who had difficulty dealing with their stature and needed to pump themselves up with silly doctrine and rules? Nah, I can’t be right, can I?

  88. “Can you please provide a reference for “Bruce Ware, the one who teaches that unsubmissive wives trigger abuse from their husbands (even Christian ones)…”

    Oh, you missed all the fun? This was from a sermon he preached back in 2008 at the Denton Bible Church in Tx. It was quite the sensation in blogger circles.

    Burke, editor of the CBMW journal had a blog post about it and it ended up with 1000+ comments. He ended up taking them down…seems there were too many biblically educated people pointing out how Ware’s attempt to justify his remarks were “unbiblical”.

    I have heard Ware quite a few times and was glad that more people are waking up to what he is really about. (His ESS is even worse!)

  89. I have often wondered myself. Doug Phillips of Vision Forum, a legalistic masculinist, is quite tiny.

  90. Believe it or not, around the time of the BFM 2000, my family belonged to the same church as the Pattersons. Of course, they rarely attended because he had important speaking engagements around the world.

    Paige Patterson delivered the sermon one Mother’s Day, and I walked up to shake his hand. He was wearing cowboy boots to elevate his height. His excuse – he’s a Texan…

  91. Could it be? A doctrine based on height issues? And Deb, watch the comments about Texans. I have a great pair of boots and a hat and adore brisket.

  92. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable. I believe the “she is in it for the money or is a typical rich Texas babe” was implied by the way it was presented here.

  93. Well, the church gives its employees a W-2, but that’s no different from any employer. It’s reporting on the employee, not the church.

    Of course the other items you mention were not part of the discussion, but you are correct.

    And I wholeheartedly agree. Any church that does not have open books for its members to the penny of everything spent is not practicing full disclosure and good management principles.

  94. I do. The yoga class that I go to is called “Hot Yoga”. They heat the room up to over 100 degrees. I don’t go that often. Just enough to get some relief from the pounding of running.

    The ONLY part of that yoga class that includes any spiritual aspect of yoga is when the teacher says “Namaste” at the end of the class. We all say it back. But for me, it’s like saying “baloney sandwich.” The same is true for most of the people in there.

    They do have the “spiritual classes” where they teach all of the other stuff related to yoga. I don’t go to those.

    Thanks, seriously, for the warning though. I appreciate it. I know that you said it out of genuine concern.

  95. Yikes…this sounds like a monastic beating to me! Here I am always in search of COLD! The heat has been unbearable this summer.

    I am thinking next time, you should say ‘baloney sandwich’ back. I love that…:o)

    I love stretching and most yoga “stretches” are so good for us…esp as we age to stay limber. I was complaining about it being called Yoga one day to a friend of mine and she said to call it Yogi as in bear. Or, how about just calling it stretching?

  96. Pingback: Friday Favorites | August 20 | 2010 UNITED STATES

  97. More information on the Napoleon Complex:

    http://ezinearticles.com/?Napoleon-Complex-Or-Small-Person-Syndrome&id=3950905

    “Also called “Short Man syndrome”, “Little Man syndrome” or “Small Man syndrome”. What was originally called the “Napoleon complex” is a term used in referring to people who are short in stature with a complex regarding that stature. It also refers to people who are very competitive due to height constraints.

    One Dictionary describes it thus: An angry male of below the average height who feels it necessary to act out in an attempt to gain respect and recognition from others to compensate for his abnormally short stature.

    The aggressive behavior sometimes displayed is possibly a reaction to repeated discrimination about his height in the school, workplace or rejection by women because of his height. If the same behavior was adopted by a tall guy, no one would notice. His height can develop into an “inferiority complex”. The “short person” always assumes rightly or wrongly, that he is being pushed about by taller men, pushed to the point of explosive aggression toward his antagonist, this reaction can amuse the tall aggressor who keeps up his taunts believing the short person incapable of retaliation.

    Scientific studies do indicate the short man syndrome mentally affects the “small person”, his relationships with his peers and with women. It also shows that the small man to be much more jealous than taller men.”

  98. Please quote the context specifically. The Texas babe ethos was in discussing the anorexia of her daughter and how that was understandable in the culture she lives in. I lived in Dallas for 11 years and am familiar with the mores within that area.

    Now, she is in it for the money is something that someone else commented on this site. I do not know if that is true or not and do not intend to make a judgement on that matter.We allow for all sorts of opinions to be expressed on this page, even when we are called silly and foolish and a whole lot worse (warthogs is one of my personal favorites).

    We have only bleeped out extreme vulgarities and that was on one occasion written by a Mark Driscoll fan so his use of vulgarity is normative but we deleted it anyway.

    BTW, one other point that might help you to understand us a bit better. We both have MBAs. It is second nature to review financials in our circles. In fact, I know an old professor who would give me three lashes with the WSJ if I didn’t mention the financials of any person or organization that I was covering.

    For us, it isn’t an ad hominem but an objective factor.

  99. I hale from the Boston area. Namaste means not putting anything yellow on that baloney sandwich.

  100. I agree. In fact, Paul even prayed the Ephesians would be given a spirit of wisdom and revelation. All knowledge from God is a revelation. We could not reach up into heaven to grasp the knowledge of God. It has to be revealed to us. So, while it’s mystical, it’s also commonplace. In addition, all believers have the same potential to have God reveal things to them as Paul, the apostle.

    On a side note, it would do us well to consider I Corinthians 14, how praying in tongues fits into this discussion about revelation.

  101. Dee – I met you a few months ago at the “super early” Bible study at the church and we discussed hypercalvinism and womens bible study. Its been a chaotic few months, but I checked into your blog to ask you if you had any info or knowledge of the “D” bible study on Genesis at your church – you may imagine what my concerns are with such a controversial book as the topic.

    Re the Beth moore, did you see the article about moore on the internet monk?

  102. like a child

    Do not worry. They hold to an old earth/ theistic evolution. Husband spoke about it when he did a sermon about 5 months ago. Actually I am thinking about coming for the fall. I am still working on the idea for a new sort of study. I think you would like her very much.

    I did see the stuff on the Internet Monk.I really enjoyed the discussion. You may be interested in seeing what I write about today-it has to do with the responses of some men and a couple of women to my post.

    Thank you so much for commenting. I wondered if you were still around the other week.

  103. Just wanted confirm – it is the Thursday study we are talking about right? What are you all studying on Sun mornings? We have still been visiting churches…it has been hard to settle on something after our previous experience. I’ve been meaning to email you directly…

  104. Sometimes I get my days confused. Is this the one led by KR? I wish you well in your search.And always feel free to email me.

  105. To respond to Michael —

    Well, it’s connection with God. A spiritual activity, our spiritual side interacting with God’s spiritual side (His Holy Spirit). To keep this can-of-worms topic within the bounds of this discussion, it’s just reasonable to conclude that it is a spiritually nutritious activity that can only help facilitate hearing and receiving from God simply what He wants to say, or do in us or through us.

    Kind of like, to keep from getting dehydrated you simply drink plenty of water. That keeps one’s physical body running optimally. Without plenty of water, we don’t function as well as could.

  106. KT
    Thank you for sharing this site with us. I read the review and found it thoughtful. I noticed that the ladies seemed to take a Reformed view of things. As far as I can tell, Moore does not. It is interesting to note that there seems to be a growing split between reformed Baptists and nonreformed Baptists. This was also evidenced by the various opinions of the Caner debacle.

  107. I’m stunned by your misinformation yet your willingness to speak as if you know it all. Beth Moore was very clear about Michael’s story in the Bible study on Paul. The child was the son of a close relative and she took him on the condition that she would not have to ever give him up. The relative apparently straightened her life out and wanted a chance to reconnect with her son. Those who were counseling Michael and the Moores felt it was essential for Michael to be with his birth mother.
    The story you have given here is despicable in light of the things she has shared openly about the situation.

  108. youneedmoreinfo

    Thank you for your passionate defense of Beth Moore. She is blessed to have such followers.

    If you read my post, you will see that I based my post on the article in Christianity Today which is a reputable magazine. The two female reporters, both very strong and educated Christian women, thoughtfully analyzed her ministry and I was responding to their thoughts. So, be not “stunned”. Read the article.

    Beth Moore is not very clear on this and a couple of other issues and she has allowed her ministry to be shrouded in mystery. She only allowed the reporters one hour with her with pre submitted questions. She then refused followup questions. Such a policy will naturally leave many questions unanswered.

    I am not surprised by your response to this article. Other bloggers have expressed concern about the response of Moore followers to any sort of question about her ministry.It is emotional and vehement. This concerns this woman because it gives rise to the unfortunate portrayal of women as “emotional” as opposed to level headed. The Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood has allowed women to be portrayed as gullible and easily deceived and melodramatic words (despicable) do nothing to dispel such stupid analysis of women.

    I believe that this sort of response is due to the unnatural pedestal upon which we, both men and women, place our leaders. I see incredible effort in attempting to give an apologetic level of response to questions about a mere human. It appears to me that such a defense reaches the same level of defense of Jesus and the Bible.

    Beth Moore is a fallen human being, just like all of us. And sometimes, her actions and teachings will be called into question. That is to be expected. We are to be like Bereans, questioning everything through the filter of Scripture.

    You say that she has been forthcoming and you give your reasons. I do not believe that your explanation has clarified anything about this unusual adoption. The woman who came back into his life was not his mother, merely his birth mother. She gave up her mother card when she gave him up for adoption.Beth Moore was his real, honest to goodness mother. If you don’t believe that then there are millions of adoptees who are being cared for by something other than mothers.

    Moore was his mother for the majority of his life when this event occurred. It sounds odd to me and to others. Now perhaps there is good reason for her choice. It has not been elucidated in a fashion that many understand. I am not saying there is NOT a good reason.I am saying that I haven’t heard it yet.

    Moore raised this issue herself. She has been giving bits and pieces of the story and is expecting us to “understand.” If she did not want this issue discussed, she should not have raised in in such a regular public fashion. She could have said simply “No comment.” But she didn’t and so the subject is on the table.

    The two of us are women and have been involved in women’s ministries and have participated in Beth Moore studies. We are sympathetic to her. You can be well assured that if we have questions, so will the secular press and they will not be as reserved.

    Perhaps it would be wise if she and her ministry could be a bit more open and allow for followup questions after interviews. Until then, she is responsible for the misunderstandings that arise.

    You can’t have it both ways. You are either transparent or you are not. Partial answers cause more questions and this should not be a surprise.

    Finally, honest questions are not despicable. I would encourage everyone to remember that only Jesus is perfect. Human leaders will fail us and we should not be surprised when they do. Weak faith is one based on the perfection of another human being. So much energy is taken up by defending and explaining one’s hero.

    True faith is one firmly rooted in the perfection of Jesus. I bet Beth Moore would agree.

  109. First, I would question who appointed you as Beth Moore’s judge?
    Secondly, who made Christianity Today the “end all” in truth?
    You call me “emotional” and a “follower” of Beth Moore. You know this to be true about me after a paragraph? You are so insightful!
    I am a follower of Jesus. I have been greatly encouraged by Beth Moore’s Bible Studies and appreciate that she meets women where they are. Both seasoned believers and unbelievers can gain from her studies. Do I agree with everything she says just because she says it? No. I do search the Scriptures if I have a question, but I don’t feel it’s my job to slander her to others. I also feel no need to know more of her personal life than she is willing to share. God is her judge and she will stand before Him and I believe she will hear a “well done”. My teenaged daughter and her friends were excited to do mother/daughter Bible studies because they were able to receive from someone so real and “approachable”. My daughter committed her life to Christ as a result of one of the Bible Studies. So yes, I admire Beth Moore and have received much from her, but she isn’t on a pedestal.
    One of the things I admire most is her lack of self-righteousness. The self righteousness of Christians was a stumbling block to me as a teenager seeking truth.
    Your site REEKS of it. That’s probably too emotional for you…any “emotion” you discern is a response to your self righteous attitudes. The Bereans searched the Scriptures. It says nothing about them setting themselves up as the judge of all in Christian ministry.
    On your charge of “mysticism”…Scripture speaks of the “still small voice”. It’s biblical.
    Lastly, I agree with you on adoption, but I don’t think her situation was the norm. I also don’t understand your belief that you have to know and judge such personal matters.
    Family situations are often complicated and painful. She has been transparent but that doesn’t give you or the media a right to dig further.
    The saddest thing about your blog is that it would lead those who may receive encouragement from the Christian leaders you’ve attacked to a place of feeling they can’t trust anyone in ministry.
    I believe your site grieves the heart of God.
    You may answer this, but I won’t be back to respond.
    1 Corinthians 11:31

  110. youneedmoreinfo,

    I’m really happy that your daughter is now a follower of Christ in large part because of Beth Moore. That’s fantastic!

    Dee has some valid concerns about this high profile Christian leader, and she shared them in this post. She wasn’t NEARLY as critical of Beth Moore as some other websites, particularly with regard to doctrine.

    I believe Dee is justified in questioning Moore’s failed adoption and the protection of her abuser who committed a crime. Why? Because Beth has tremendous influence over her followers, as you have proven through your commentary. According to James 3:1, God holds Bible teachers to a higher standard because of the great influence they have over His children.

  111. I know you do not intend to return but I want to answer you point by point. Once again, I commend you for passionately defending Moore. She is fortunate to have such a friend.

    -I am judging her??? What do you mean by judge. I am certainly not questioning her faith. I am merely questioning a few specifics. Questioning, mind you, not judging. The word “judge” is misapplied whenever one questions the behavior or thoughts of another. I saw this in the Caner situation. He lied, everyone knows it and a few said that saying he lied was “judging.” The Scripture does not say we are not to question but that we are not to judge the state of a person’s soul. I did not judge Moore’s soul.

    -Where did I say that Christianity Today was the “end” of all truth? I said they asked some questions, did some analysis and made some interesting observations.It is a good magazine, however.

    -You are emotional. See above statement. You put words in my mouth.You use words like “REEKS” and you are obviously deeply disturbed by this post.Sarcasm is also part of an emotional response. I would actually like to have a conversation based on your and my thoughts.

    -You mention the word “slander.” Do you know the definition of the word? Slander is “verbal” defamation. Perhaps you meant libel which is “written” defamation? Inherent in libel is a false statement that maligns someone’s reputation. Where in my post did I say anything false? Perhaps you meant something different. If so, I guess I will never know because you are running away.

    -How was I self righteous? Just because I asked some questions based on a news story? Have you never asked questions based on things that you read? In what snetence did I put myself up as a righteous person?

    -Did you notice that I said that I, as well as my fellow blog queen, have participated in Moore studies? Did we say that anyone should not be in a Moore study? Please point out to me where I said that one shouldn’t ever listen to Moore? I am happy your daughter became a Christian through a Moore study.

    -Once again, you say you are emotional in response to a self righteous attitude due to the fact that we are judging “all” in Christian ministry. HUH??? We have written over 350 posts. Could you please tell us exactly where you see that we have judged ALL in Christian ministry? Or have we merely raised some questions on a few in Christian ministry? Once again, please define judge? Perhaps you use it differently than we do.

    -No, Moore has not been transparent. She has purposely brought up some issues and retreated. There is always a “right” to ask questions on issues that she has raised. Can you please tell me why I have no “right” to ask questions? i am most perplexed.

    -As for the adoption, i did not judge her-what is it with you and that word?

    -Now, here is where I intend to be strong. There are a number of people in ministry that have no right to be there. They abuse people, they use the church for their own ego and personal gain, they lead people astray. Make sure you understand that I am not saying this about Moore. Read that last sentence again.

    I have seen pastors cover up pedophiles in their churches, use pornography, embezzle funds, and act like pompous jerks, stepping on some little guys to further their kingdoms. And if you were smart, you would read about some of those people on this site. Sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to listen as some churches and pastors harm others is naive.

    Take a stroll over to ExChristians. net and see how many have left the faith due to abuse, poor teaching and lousy role models.Read the stories of those who have been spiritually and emotionally abused at SGMsurvivors. You should be glad that their are people asking questions of some truly terrible situations.

    -I am sorry that you need to run. It is hard to carefully and thoughtfully defend a point of view. Its far easier to sit in a safe pew and answer some carefully defined questions.

    -Your Bible verse does not apply in this context. Check your commentary. Perhaps you meant another?

  112. We are all work in progress and yet it does not stop God from calling us into His kingdom work. As a previous blogger stated I have done Beth Moore studies for 10 years and likewise I do not put her on a pedestal or blindly accept what she teaches. I was surprised to see a whole group of women believers put into a stereotype as if helpless and by my sisters and brothers in Christ but atlast my Jesus loves you and Beth. We are not here on this earth to judge each other, hold each other accountable but only God knows the heart. To quote Amy Grant from her ex husband’s grandmother, There’s a little good in the worse of us,so much bad in the best of us, so it never behooves any of us to criticize the rest of us.

    If you look hard enough you’ll see or find it, good, bad… Let the one without sin or a little off the mark theology in our christian lives throw the first stone. I’ve had a few missed interpreted revelations in my days as a Sunday School teacher and must say God was never too lax or slow to set me right. It just was not my calling to go into public teaching. Thank God because not sure I would have been so fast or faithful as Beth Moore to be obedient as flawed as I was at 18 which is when she first accepted her calling. And call it what you like, God does reveal and how do we know that His personal revelation to her isn’t that we are in the last days…Time will tell but Thess. teaches us to be ready and not lazy thinking we have all the time there it before His return. Bible teaches we do not know the hour but I’d rather have spent my time studying His word in preparation than criticizing those who may be crying wolf. Finally remember Paul called Peter out on His behavior but the glory is His because He used Paul as correction for Peter who God did directly give visions and revelations…Perhaps Beth is one of those daughters who will prophetize…Even the prophets had human weakness but God Himself took care of His own, whatever the weakness, whatever was lacked in order to bring His good to the poor, the brokenhearted, freedom for the captives and release prisoners from the darkness. This is the focus. Pray for her and pray for her and her minstry to be the best they can be for His glory. Pray for each other. Then let’s be the body of Christ to do His work.

  113. Sorry misprint, should read:
    We are not here on this earth to judge each other, yes to hold each other accountable but only God knows the heart

  114. m

    Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Once again, we were responding to a much more in depth article written by Christianity Today. All that we responded to are issues that Moore has made public. When we as Christians, put ourselves in the public eye, we must be ready for public response. As you can see, we received quite a bit of response about our motives, our article, our personal lives, etc. We accept that since we have gone public with our blog.

    I think Moore isa strong individual and can handle the outsiders peek into her ministry. Just as we receive suggestions (such as “drop dead”) with amusement, she probably does the same. Just as we learn from others taking a critical look at what we do, so can she. I want to reiterate that both of us have read Moore’s books and have participated in her studies. None of us are without fault and none of us are above scrutiny.