"He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?"
Themis armed with a sword and scales
As we discussed last week, The Gospel Coalition (TGC) and Together for the Gospel (T4G) issued concurrent statements in the wake of a judge's dismissal of a lawsuit against Sovereign Grace Ministries et al. Here are those posts:
Statement from Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, and Al Mohler (T4G)
This is how Dever, Duncan, and Mohler described their relationship with Mahaney:
"A Christian leader, charged with any credible, serious, and direct wrongdoing, would usually be well advised to step down from public ministry. No such accusation of direct wrongdoing was ever made against C. J. Mahaney. Instead, he was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals. For this reason, we, along with many others, refused to step away from C. J. in any way. We do not regret that decision. We are profoundly thankful for C. J. as friend, and we are equally thankful for the vast influence for good he has been among so many Gospel-minded people."
Dee challenged what TGC had to say (link), and I called attention to T4G's blunder in publishing its statement (link). It is certainly noteworthy that Kevin DeYoung, who contributed to TGC's statement, spoke at SGM's Transfer Conference last weekend and that Mark Dever will be delivering the sermon at Sovereign Grace Church Louisville this Sunday, June 2.
On Wednesday, May 29, Susan Burke and Bill O'Neil filed a Motion for Reconsideration on behalf of the plaintiffs (see below).
Screen Shot of Motion to Reconsider Filed May 29, 2013
This motion contains two arguments, specifically:
I. Civil Conspiracy Claims Are Timely Filed as Such Claims Accrued at the Time of Discovery of the Conspiracy.
From the Conclusion of the Motion to Reconsider (p. 8):
"The application of the discovery rule to civil conspiracy claims dictates that such claims accrue at the time the plaintiffs discover or should have discovered the facts establishing the elements required to bring a conspiracy claim. Under this rule, Plaintiffs civil conspiracy claims are timely filed."
II. Claims of Certain Plaintiffs Are Timely Filed Within the Requirements of § 5-117
From the Conclusion of the Motion to Reconsider (p. 8):
"Moreover, based on the allegations in the SAC, the allegations by Renee Palmer Gamby and Donna Doe arise out of incidents of alleged sexual abuse that occurred when the plaintiffs were minors. As such, the applicable period of limitations is seven years from the age of majority, and claims by both Gamby and Doe were filed within the allowable limitations period."
In the Motion to Reconsider, the plaintiffs' attorneys point out that Maryland law was amended in October 2003 by passage of the following:
Maryland Code, Courts and Judicial Proceedings 5-117
(a) In this section, "sexual abuse" has the meaning stated in § 5-701 of the Family Law Article.
(b) An action for damages arising out of an alleged incident or incidents of sexual abuse that occurred while the victim was a minor shall be filed within 7 years of the date that the victim attains the age of majority.
Perhaps lawmakers are beginning to view child sex abuse as more heinous than some other crimes and thereby changing the statute of limitations for that particular crime.
As previously noted, we are not attorneys; however, we believe it is important to pass along this information to those who may be interested in keeping up with the legal proceedings involving SGM et al. To read the entire motion, click on the link below.
Motion for reconsideration (file stamped)
This is just one tiny step in what is expected to be an arduous and lengthy process in attempting to take this case to trial. It is also a way to get the information out to those interested in the problems inherent in the prosecution of child sex abuse.
In recent years there has been a huge outcry against child sex abuse, particularly at the hands of clergy. Advances in technology have helped keep this scourge in the public eye.
You might be interested to know that there are similar situations playing out in other states. Here is but one example from Minnesota involving an attorney named Jeff Anderson who has successfully represented some of the victims of Catholic priests. We have had the pleasure of speaking with Jeff Anderson in the past and found him to be extremely knowledgeable on matters concerning the sexual abuse of children.
On May 29, 2013 (the same day this Motion for Reconsideration was filed), the following headline appeared in the StarTribune: Minn. churches are sued under new sex abuse law.
The article begins as follows:
"A 51-year-old Twin Cities man sued Wednesday alleging sexual abuse by a Catholic priest in the 1970s, the first such lawsuit since the Child Victims Act was signed into law last week by Gov. Mark Dayton.
The act strips away the statute of limitations that previously gave child sex-abuse victims until the age of 24 to sue. Exactly what impact it will have is unclear, but St. Paul attorney Jeff Anderson, who is representing the man, said more litigation is inevitable.
“He was suffering in the shadows,” Anderson said of his client, who is remaining anonymous. 'There are going to be many more [suits] to come, as they should. Now is the time for reckoning.' "
Could it be that lawmakers around the country are beginning to take another look at the statute of limitations pertaining to victims of child sexual abuse? We can only hope…
We will continue to monitor the SGM situation and keep you apprised on any developments.
Lydia's Corner: 2 Samuel 22:1-23:23 Acts 2:1-47 Psalm 122:1-9 Proverbs 16:19-20
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It’s interesting how these laws vary from state to state. I thought Colorado’s were a little lenient…until I started hearing about Maryland and Virginia….
In Colorado, The statute of limitations to file on child sexual abuse is 10 years from the time the victim, as an adult, remembers. So if they never buried it, then they’d have until they were 28. If, like me, things were buried and only came out in the light when I started looking at the bits sticking out of the corners, then for one perp, the clock started ticking when I was 24 (had till I was 34) – for another, it didn’t start ticking until I was 45…I still have 5 years on that one….
Also, in Colorado, clergy are legally mandated reports and can face criminal charges for not reporting within (I think) 48 hours.
In Colorado, it is also a class 4 felony for a pastor to seduce or make sexual advances to one of his congregants – they face the same penalties a therapist would face in that situation. Unfortunately, the statute of limitations on that is only 3 years.
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A great new article was just posted at the netgrace.org site. Here is my tweet about it:
It is better to be of a lowly spirit with the poor [oppressed] than to divide the spoil with the proud. http://goo.gl/89Gn6
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Instead, he was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals.
That is what they are saying he was charged with?
That’s BS.
That statement just shows the contempt these self-appointed/self-exalted masters hold for the rank and file believers and the church at large.
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It’s really shocking that C.J. Mahaney is allowed to preach anywhere, given the numerous allegations of his knowledge of the pedophiles in the church/school and covering it up in order to avoid financial repercussions. After reading the reports about the financial ties between Mahaney and the 6 men who are standing by him, I no longer wonder about them. But the attendees at Sovereign Grace Church in Louisville? How has the attendance/giving been affected?
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Kevin DeYoung – that impartial judge who declared Mahaney ‘fit for ministry’ – is fun to watch. Interesting how he weighed in again right before joining Mahaney and gang at an Orlando resort where they strategized about the future of SGM.
Who is still buying this baloney???
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@ Janey: From what I can tell, the attendance has not been overwhelming. They are meeting in a small room at a Marriott. Interestingly, if the pictures were correct, they enlarged the room (dividers I think) and, from what I can tell, it was not filled for the John Piper “CJ is my man” sermon.
I think that the church is merely the shell for CJ continuing to run SGM even though he stepped down and claims he is just a little ol’ preacher…
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@ Deb: Objective…right. They now have a real problem. They have stood by him and made such absolute fools of themselves by drooling over him that they can’t back out. They will look foolish so they hang on, hoping that this will all go away.
They have lost their moral high ground and their culture wars will be even more difficult because people know that they stood on the side of CJ with all of his baggage.
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I think the lawsuit makes much more sense now. It is not about the specific abuse per se but the conspiracy to cover it up and the damages resulting from covering it up (ie more abuse). The plaintiffs are alleging that if SGM actions had been different they might not have been abused at all, or to the degree they were. Could they also sure for the lost damages from the inability to directly sue their abusers, because the conspiracy hampered their ability to appeal to the law?
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Kristin wrote:
Kristen — Yes, it appears to me that this document from this legal team is more concerned with the (alleged) cover up and conspiracy. But there is another legal team doing criminal investigations on this case. There’s no statute of limitations on felonies.
Attorney Bill O’Neil said that about 1/3rd of the defendants have already been brought to the attention of authorities. Two were convicted of child sex crimes and are in jail. One went through the juvenile system. One case in Maryland is ongoing.
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Deb wrote:
Deb — Obviously none of the commenters on DeYoung’s post about Transfer are drinking the grape stuff. Be sure to get a screen shot before he deletes them all again and closes comments as other Gospel Coalition Mahaney supporters have done. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2013/05/11/transfer-conference/?comments#comments
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@ Janey: Thank you. I just took a screen shot. You know what I find interesting? I have no idea who the people who are protesting the response to the SGM saga are! I do not recognize their screen names and I do not recognize their writing style.
I have been joking that I want to start a new forensic specialty-figuring out people by their comments, even when they change heir screen names.
From what I can tell, there is a groundswell occurring that is not being manipulated by any one group. There is no question in my mind that this scandal will be a book one day. I would not want the legacy that some of the CJ supporters have when history looks back on who cared about “the least of these.”
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If the conspiracy SOL argument in this motion prevails, does that bring back the other aspects of the original suit so that Fairfax victims are back the case? It doesn’t seem so to me, but maybe I’m missing something.
If not, does anyone know if there is a separate plan to bring suit in Virginia for the Fairfax plaintiffs?
Those situations were horrible, and I’d hate to see them dropped because they were out of Maryland jurisdiction.
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Kristin wrote:
You’ve got it!
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@ dee:
If these actions are their moral high ground, then maybe they’re a wee bit morally bankrupt?
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Anon wrote:
Again, just like the Communists, Purity of Ideology is all that matters.
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dee wrote:
Make that HUMBLE little ol’ preacher.
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Bridget
When they do not care for the weakest among us, they have lost their call. When it becomes about the pastor or the program, they have lost their call. They have become no different that a gazillion secular business in which profits trump responsibility.
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@ Janey:
That article has been up for a bit. Kevin seemed to be doing a bit of advertising for the Transfer Conference which was last week. I’m wondering if other comments were already deleted?
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Deb, you’ve plastered one of my favorite verses at the top! Praying that leaders would take it to heart, maybe even ask God “how” they can do that. Maybe make it a goal for their church. . . institution. . . business. Many businesses in the secular realm are trying this. Undercover boss comes to mind!
Hey, I know, how about a new show “Undercover Pastor/Elder”? Wow, think what they could discover down in the trenches !?!?
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@ dee:
Dee – I keep an eye on Sharper Iron forum (don’t ask) where there are a lot of pastors and I have been watching their responses re: SGM situation. Over the past year, most of the comments have been “why should I get involved – I’m not part of SGM?” I am definitely seeing a turn and more pastors are deciding that it is appropriate to speak out even though CJ has nothing to do with their ministry.
Here’s the tough question to ask church leaders: did you air your opinion about the Penn State case before Sandusky went to trial? Then why aren’t you willing to say something in this case when this SGM case is far bigger, more perpetrators (3 of whom have been tried/convicted), more churches and church leaders involved, etc.
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Julie Anne wrote:
Julie Anne, I totally understand about “keeping an eye” out. As I started researching trends in Christendom back in 2002 for a project, I came across other things that astounded me that only the internet gave us insight into. And you have hit on one of them.
Much of evangelicalism has been involved in a culture war for decades. But I saw something very disconcerting about this, they ignored their corrupt own culture and even defended it. So you saw a lot of railing against “the outside world” while defending the same things in the Body.
Christians would pack courtrooms to protest porn zoning violation hearings but then pack it again when a pervert from their church was on trial to give character references and ask the judge to go light on him. Why?
What is going on? I have come to the conclusion after seeing this for many years that their thinking is backwards: if you are a professed Christian and in the church, your sin is viewed differently. It gets more of a pass. The rules of society do not seem to apply.
Christians are their own worst enemies. Saying sorry or that you repent while doing evil as a professing Christian should not get one more of a pass on doing evil.
So they will speak out on Penn State while doing all they can to sweep the same evil in their churches under the carpet or seek to protect the molester in their midst if reported. I do wonder. Wouldn’t doing the evil while proclaiming the Name of Christ be worse? Or are we so inundated with throw away lines like “sinners sin”, we cannot see that anymore?
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@ Julie Anne
The Sharper Iron blog is an IFB(Independent Fundamental Baptist) blog. I have not researched the blog to fact check, but, I would be curious to know if they were as vocal to stand up against those in their own camp three years ago. There was a 20/20 special three years ago featuring Jocelyn Zichterman who offers a support system to help sexual abuse victims within the IFB cult. Anyway, that special called out several IFB institions….namely Pastor Chuck Phelps, for his involvement in covering up a crime. Northland Baptist Bible College was also named. Funny, they have since the airing of the 20/20 special conveniently dropped the name Baptist from their title and now go by the name Northland International University. Bob Jones University was also mentioned in the special. The point I am trying to make is this. Does Sharper Iron always stand up for victims of sexual abuse? Were they vocal about the abuses and cover up within their own camp, or, are they just delighted that the spotlight is now on the reformed group? That would be an interesting thing to research.
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Here is a link from Sharper Iron in defense of Bob Jones University and their definition of “repentance”.
Issues We Have With G.R.A.C.E. Investigating BJU
The pot calling the kettle black??
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Looks like the link won’t work, but you can read it on their blog.
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Bridget wrote:
Love the idea. What is really going on at church.
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“Instead, he was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals.” (quote from Dever, Duncan, Mohler statement)
They really do think the rest of us are nothing but dumb sheep don’t they.
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dee wrote:
Dee — It feels the same way to me. It’s definitely a groundswell of God-fearing Christians who haven’t forgotten what they learned about Jesus in Sunday School.
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DaveinTN wrote:
Here is the problem with this statement. We were once told by an SBC elder that a pastor cannot be a pastor if it is found that he deliberately lied. So, what do we do when the leaders are not being straight with us? They are disqualifying their leadership by this statement. They know it is not true and yet they say it.
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Bridget wrote:
Bridget — That’s a possibility. They are so cocksure that everyone agrees with them, that they have a tendency to set it and forget it. They found out earlier this week that they are very mistaken.
As you know, when they posted their support statement for Mahaney on the Together for the Gospel Facebook page, they didn’t recheck it for a few hours. There were more than 100 comments, of which 90% were critical–and most appear to be comments from their own Reformed Facebook fans.
Bill Kinnon got a screenshot before Together for the Gospel started deleting the comments and finally deleted the post:
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s2/sh/e3623beb-3591-4ba2-a332-30f2e94bb79c/48ade443a4715458c112553f82acf8c9
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DaveinTN wrote:
I’ve been wondering about that. Maybe when one promotes/directs a sin&guilt-based system, those who remain in it are people sunk in fear and who see the solution to be obedience. Their fear would keep them blindly following. Certainly their abject obedience wouldn’t allow development of solid critical thought.
So these leaders might genuinely believe that the unwashed masses are this naïve and simple, not recognizing that their followers are disabled by their own pathetic construction of the gospel.
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dee wrote:
Dee — The Mahaney Seven aren’t going to look good. (Al Mohler, Mark Dever, Ligon Duncan, D. A. Carson, Kevin DeYoung, Justin Taylor & Denny Burk.)
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Julie Anne wrote:
This is an amazing article! I hope there are many more pastors like this man out there.
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Tim Challies reviewed a book on sexual assault on his blog on May 28. “Oddly,” no comments are allowed. I found this interesting:
“I do not understand the consequences of sexual assault upon its victims. There were times as a child I came perilously close to being victimized—that school janitor, that older boy. But each time someone or something intervened. I am grateful for my ignorance here. I do not understand how and why this kind of assault impacts its victims at such a deep level and how those consequences can extend through an entire lifetime. But I want to understand as much as I am able. I know so many people who have fallen prey to predators, so many who bear the marks on their bodies and souls. And I want to be able to love them well, to walk with them through their healing.”
This doesn’t exactly jibe with his defense of SGM. Except the part about not understanding.
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As bad as the “held to be true by vast millions” (love that “vast”) remark is, it’s not as bad as TGC saying: “As to the specific matter of C. J. participating in some massive cover-up, the legal evidence was so paltry (more like non-existent) that the judge did not think a trial was even warranted.” Are they fools or knaves? Either way, this is a lie.
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JeffB wrote:
CJ called Al Mohler "the smartest guy on the planet. So, if this is true, then he knows he is not telling the truth.
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I’d suggest silent demonstrations on public property outside of the churches Mahaney, Dever, Mohler, etc., preach at, with the allegations succinctly spelled out on a flyer and/or a link to a website with the allegations succinctly spelled out. That would get their attention–and they might resort to the Scientological technique of labeling their enemies “religious bigots.”
Don’t expect you’re going to get their attention the first weekend or even the first dozen months of weekends. Based on my experience with that notorious space alien cult, it took over 10 years of lots of people doing all sorts of things to begin to hit critical mass. But you know, I don’t regret standing in front of the cult’s orgs with a sign, because education ultimately works.
And yes, I totally understand why Christians won’t do this. Which is why one didn’t find very many Christians of any sort among people fighting Scientology. It was left to the irreligious, atheists, agnostics, secularists and people in general who were just concerned about a dangerous organization taking people’s money and causing great harm.
And at bottom–maybe that’s the problem. Nobody is flat-out saying what Mahaney, Mohler, Dever and the rest of the neo-Calvinist crowd are leaders of a dangerous organization that does not recognize the human rights of out-of-power men, all women and all children. Because if a *secular* organization did this, you’d be outraged and raising ****. But because these guys hold to the proper DOCTRINE, I get the feeling that the outrage is absolutely hamstrung.
Forget doctrine–these guys are hurting people. Seriously.
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JeffB wrote:
That's been interesting to see Challies and several of the Gospel Coalition guys this past 8 days: Justin Taylor posted on having a child sexual abuse plan — one day after his endorsement of Mahaney who is a defendant in a child sexual abuse cover up lawsuit; Thabiti posts a TED Talk on domestic violence (which is really pretty good); and DeYoung posts a veiled threat to anyone trying to leave his church (5/29). Whoops, I guess DeYoung didn't get the memo.
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Deb — See my email.
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And another. I love her gentle exposition of how our loving Father desires to deal with sin, even scandalous sin.
http://www.sometimesalight.com/1/post/2013/05/the-grace-of-scandal.html
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Phoenix wrote:
Phoenix — Thank you. Such a beautiful blog post and worded with so much grace.
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@ Janey: Got it. 🙂
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“Take Up Thy Neo-Cal Non-profit And Go Home?”
Dink!
Continued widespread negative feedback on TGC, T4G statements concerning ole C.J. Mahaney?
hmmm….
TWW readers are seeing SGM’s sexual abuse defense, getting wiped a bit?
What?
It is miraculously happening.
Ho!
Wonders never cease….
What is easer, to say your sins are forgiven, or to say : “take up your proverbial lame Neo-Calvinist 501c non-profit organization and go home”?
(grin)
*
I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father, but by Me.
-Jesus
*
Ring the doorbell all you want..
The whole world is laughing.
Burrrrrrrp!
Might wanna stop drinkin’ Da Ceege’s KoolAid.
hahahahahaha
Sopy
—
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
“The Church is not first and foremost an audience for our sermons and our books; it is the people of God among whom we are our real selves.”
Wow. That really nails it.
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Psalm 82:2-3 (Message)
“Enough! You’ve corrupted justice long enough,
you’ve let the wicked get away with murder.
You’re here to defend the defenseless,
to make sure that underdogs get a fair break;
Your job is to stand up for the powerless,
and prosecute all those who exploit them.”
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Leigh wrote:
No and no. They were highly supportive of Phelps (and Olsen) at the time. Still are, AFAIK. If you can search there, look up “Tina Andersen” to see for yourself.
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Janey wrote:
Thank you for the laugh. That was excellent.
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@ Janey:
Janey, I have no doubt that they get prompted for their articles. There was one going around about domestic abuse a while back and we saw a bunch of articles come out at the same time. (If I remember correctly, It was also around the same time Piper was getting push back on a video where he was telling wives to endure abuse for at time and he gave an attempt at a clarifying statement which really wasn’t very clarifying.)
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@ Bridget:
“Hey, I know, how about a new show “Undercover Pastor/Elder”? Wow, think what they could discover down in the trenches !?!?”
++++++++++++++
Awesome idea!
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@ Anon:
…and, as if the “vast majority of Evangelicals” hold to the teachings that sexual abuse should be hidden from secular authorities.
These guys are dreaming. These churches are part of the reason the secular authorities have the power they do.
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@ Val:
I’ll taske it a little farther and that these guys are the reason the secular authorities need the authority they do.
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@ Jeannette Altes:
I’ll take it a little farther and say that these guys are the reason the secular authorities need the authority they do.
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@ Julie Anne:
Wasn’t that guy who got upset with you about HA from Sharper Iron?
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Julie Anne wrote:
Julie Anne — I read both of Piper’s comments too and felt sick. These men seems to be soft on wife abuse (not spouse abuse). And of course, Piper’s support for Mahaney indicates he is soft on child sexual abuse too. Basically, in these men’s churches, if you aren’t a man, you’re not as important. Jesus taught a lot about children and demonstrated the proper treatment of women. He was pretty vocal toward people who treated them badly. Jesus makes it clear that if you don’t care for the “least of these,” you end up in eternal fire.
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So if you Google SGM, it is now known as authoritarian religious cult that harbors and gives safe haven to pedophiles?
Q: Who offers a support system to help sexual abuse victims within the Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) authoritarian religious cult, anyway? Who can the victims turn to for assistance? Apparently, it would appear that the religious authorities have turned a deaf ear.
Q: Why does the Neo-Calvinists associated with TGC, TFG, or 9 Marks religious 501c non-profits organizations support the SGM religious cult anyway? Are these organizations authoritarian religious cults that harbor and give safe haven to pedophiles also?
—
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Julie Anne wrote:
What is amusing to me is when they choreograph these articles they cannot see how obvious they are. As if their being “one voice” on the same page makes a difference to the facts on the ground. It probably works for their followers, though, because they are used to being told how to think.
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JeffB wrote:
Why would he share he doesn’t understand because each time something ‘intervened’?
Also, what is his point about emphasizing how some people are affected for a lifetime?
If I had read that as a victim of sexual assault, I think it would make me feel bad. Like, why didn’t someone intervene in my case? And why haven’t I been able to just get over it?
Maybe it’s just me, but I got the impression Challies and his compatriots share a belief about sin that basically leaves them innovulated against it. And so if a tornado strikes, for instance (re: Piper), God has allowed it for some reason. And surely CJ’s troubles are caused by those people, you know, the ones that aren’t innovulated. The ones that for some reason were victimized, and are somehow still struggling. So, instead Challies has stood in support of Mahaney because, well, he’s one of the elect. It’s those other people, those victims, who are trying to drag him down and involve him in whatever happened to them when no one was there to intervene.
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Innovulated? How in the world…?
It should have been inoculated
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Julie Anne@DefendTheSheep31 May
It is better to be of a lowly spirit with the poor [oppressed] than to divide the spoil with the proud.
http://goo.gl/89Gn6
Great tweet Julie Anne.
I have long thought what we are seeing today is parallel to the priests of the OT which made God very angry.
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Sopwith wrote:
Sopy–It’s horrible to consider, but other people have brought that up too.
Are you aware of the massive BBC child sexual abuse scandal that’s erupted in the past 6 months in the U.K.? Here’s an article from 3 days ago in the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/may/30/bbc-staff-child-sex-abuse-allegations
Twenty BBC current or former employees have faced total of 36 allegations of sexual abuse against children and teenagers since October.
“The complaints about an unknown number of victims under the age of 18 have come to light in the six months since October, according to a Freedom of Information request to the BBC.
The corporation said it was “horrified” by the allegations made against the 20, who have worked for the BBC in some capacity over the past five decades.
The complaints were among a total of 152 recent and historic allegations of sexual abuse against 81 BBC employees and freelancers, including 48 about Savile. Each of the complaints, involving adults and children, have been made to the BBC since October.”
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Anon 1 wrote:
That tweet is a direct quote from the article. I hope people read it. it’s great.
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Anon 1 wrote:
It’s funny – – when they posting blog articles about domestic violence and appropriate response and linked to the International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women, these guys focused solely on wives facing domestic violence. The UN event was really about violence and oppression of women and girls, not just married women. So they referenced this UN event, but focused on only what they wanted to focus on.
Maybe they didn’t want to touch on oppression of girls/young ladies – you know in patriarchal homes where dads own their daughters until they are married.
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Hester wrote:
Yes, he is. But he used a pseudonym and so I don’t know who it is.
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Fascinating interview on child sexual abuse in churches from Church Mutual Insurance Company. Harvard Ph.D. Anna Salter answers questions.
Q: Do religious institutions pose a greater opportunity for sexual offenders?
A: Dr. Anna Salter: Yes, they do, for some very fundamental reasons surrounding faith, as well as some other reasons more indicative of society in general. First, religious institutions are built upon a belief that people are fundamentally good and there to help others. People are compelled by faith to believe that clergy, staff and volunteers at a religious institution are there to help in response to some sort of higher calling. As one of the offenders I interviewed said, “I consider church people easy to fool…they have a trust that comes from being Christians.”
Read the rest here…
https://www.churchmutual.com/dsp/dsp_RiskReporter.cfm?riskReporterID=30&page=qa
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@ elastigirl:
Yah. That undercover bosses seem to come away from that experience changed and enlightened in regards to the people who work for them and the jobs they do. Let’s have pastor/elder be a regular Joe member for a week or two. He can:
Work as an auto mechanic 44-50 hours a week.
Be at his sons two baseball games a week.
Take care of his home and yard weekly.
Be at church Sunday morning (and early to serve) and one midweek or Sunday night.
Be at one other meeting a week for church deacons or school or ?
Help homeschool his kids.
Give financially.
Be told the church is now going to take on a building project and we need to give even more finances and time volunteering so we can save money on the projects.
Are we remembering to be hospitable and making friends in the neighborhood SO we can bring them to church to hear the preached word?
Be awakened most nights with new babe noise.
Be a joy to pastor!! He needs to give an account for your soul.
Oh, yes, your first priority is your wife and family, so sqeeze in a date night, keep up with those family nights, and daily family devotions.
Bless you brother!
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@ Bridget: That was good!
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CJ Mahaney is to the Reformed Community what Lance Armstrong is to the World of Professional Cyclists.
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Bridget wrote:
Bridget — This would be a great idea if the pastor/elder was a loving caring person. I did this in my own church and it completely changed my view of women’s ministry.
But from reading their own words, it seems fairly obvious that the arrogant pastors/bloggers we’re laughing at on the Wartburg Watch don’t care about the concerns of the average church member.
In fact, their only reason to do “Undercover Pastor/Elder” would be to pry into your life and dig up dirt on you.
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Evie wrote:
Evie — I agree with you. I was going to write something about Challies’s strange comments, but you’ve done a much better job than I could have.
There is something sick in their theology that prevents them from being like Jesus. Can you imagine Jesus writing something like that? Can you imagine Jesus being incapable of showing sympathy? Can you imagine Jesus talking to a broken person and saying “I cannot figure out why the abuse you received as a child is still affecting you”?
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Janey wrote:
Janey, Great link! everyone should read it. I especially liked this snippet as it is important to discern in so much of life in general:
People often cite “niceness” as the reason why they trust an individual. Author Gavin DeBecker said, “Niceness is a decision — a strategy of social interaction; it is not a character trait.”
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I remember believing that CJ labored to give a sermon that was with the congregation of CLC in mind, because that’s the way he made it seem.
Then, it so happens, I was visiting a different SGM church the Sunday after CJ had preached at CLC, and he preached the same exact message I had heard the week before. Only the second time, in the other location, I noticed he was acting. He had been so emotional the first time, but the second time I could tell he was putting on a show. All this from a guy we were constantly told was always so authentic.
Then come to find out he took these shows on the road, repeating the same performance based on the same script over and over.
That became another one of those red flags. I always believed that it was important for preachers/teachers to seek God before delivering a message so that it ministers from the Spirit to that particular congregation. That there should be a prophetic element to a message, which takes special effort. That involves a close walk with the Lord and seeking him as to how to serve the specific needs of a specific congregation. And that builds trust, and people end up feeling really loved and cared for rather than just a number in the crowd.
But that’s not how Mahaney “served the Lord.” He came up with messages in which there was no demonstration of it having come from God or his having heard from God. Instead, he was out to indoctrinate people according to his agenda, and in order with what he wished to achieve. The individuals listening didn’t matter. What mattered was achieving his goals. Mahaney was always plotting, always strategizing, always working on his next move. And people weren’t there to serve, they were there to manipulate.
The reason so many people are so adamantly opposed to Mahaney – Christian men & women – is because of the realization that he used “the gospel” and the name of “the Savior” to carry out his self-serving agenda. And that is not only antithetical to the message, it gets you into some serious hot water with God & His people.
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Patrice wrote:
That’s exactly my point.
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Evie wrote:
Evie and JeffB — I agree with you. I was going to write something about Tim Challies’s strange comments, but you’ve done a much better job than I could have.
There is something sick in their theology that prevents them from being like Jesus. Can you imagine Jesus writing something like that? Can you imagine Jesus being incapable of showing sympathy? Can you imagine Jesus talking to a broken person and saying “I cannot figure out why the abuse you received as a child is still affecting you”?
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Dee/Deb — Two of my comments are stuck in moderation. Help. Just delete the first one.
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Evie wrote:
Evie,
Over the span of a year, I saw the same thing with Paul Washer. There is nothing wrong with the same “theme” in a sermon but when certain points have specific emotions attached to them each time, one can see it is affectation. Thing is, it is usually a different group so unless one is tracking it hear the sermon over and over, they won’t pick up on it.
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dee wrote:
Yes, that statement is absolutely a lie. But their lie only has power if enough people are naïve enough to believe it, which I think is what they are counting on. This could be their downfall or at least the start of it.
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Anon 1 wrote:
Exactly Anon 1. Mahaney knew, back then, that few people knew he was operating on the basis on a strategy instead of being led by the Spirit.
He had designated himself an “Apostle,” and Christians familiar with their bibles thought of Paul and his journeys to minister to various churches whom he “fathered” in the Lord. This was the imagery CJ conjured in our minds – of a Father who deeply cares and is so concerned for the people in his care. And like a father, he was so proud of his family, for how well they listened and made him the luckiest of men, to be in the “happiest place on earth,” unlike those other men out there who pastored churches where, for them, it simply wasn’t “a joy.”
He flattered people into thinking he cared see specifically for them, and especially CLC, his happy place.
The place he left in a heartbeat when his little darling sock puppets started seeing they were something he put on his hands and controlled, and he liked them only as long as they repeated exactly what he wanted them to say.
Once the “joy” was gone, he was gone!!
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Bridget wrote:
What would regular members and deacons be able to do then?
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@ Julie Anne:
That might explain a few things if Sharper Iron is IFB.
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@ Anon 1:
That’s funny because the only emotion I’ve ever seen/heard Paul Washer display is YELL.
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@ Hester:
DaveinTN wrote:
HEre is the thing. Anyone who STILL views them as “Christian leaders” or “pastors” is the one who is woefully naive. When the money dries up, they will go away. They need a following to exist.
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Evie wrote:
The first time I encountered Mahaney was on a T4G promo video when it first started. I thought then he was using “flattery” as a sort of court jester so enamoured with the “greats” he got to be around. I thought the flattery was too obvious and I was stumped as to why guys like Mohler, etc did not see through it. Now I know why.
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Janey wrote:
IMO, even a little worse than being devoid of empathy and sympathy, is to joke about sexual abuse of children and make flippant comments about it, like that Turk guy did on Twitter.
It’s one thing for these guys to feel relief that their buddy got out of legal problems (not that I agree with that, but it’s a little understandable from their vantage), but to crack jokes about kids being abused?
Getting off over legal technicalities, or even being found not guilty, doesn’t necessarily mean that person is truly innocent.
O J Simpson got off the murder charges in the trial by jury, but is there anyone outside of the 12 people, who really thinks O J Simpson is innocent?
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Anon 1 wrote: (quoting Salter):
I don’t know if that’s true of most churches. Many denominations, and I’d say the Neo Calvinists in particular, and a lot of very conservative Baptists, would say people are fundamentally evil and sinful, hence their need for a Savior.
But she makes some very good points. You can read excerpts from her book “Predators” online, and it contains some absolutely hair raising content.
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Daisy wrote:
Daisy, I agree she gets that wrong but I think I understand the concept she is aiming for as in most tend to think people going to church know they are sinners and have been saved. Therefore we should be able to trust them
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And this from Matt B Redmond http://mattbredmond.com/2013/06/01/what-kind-of-hard-heart/comment-page-1/#comment-1733‘
Here is his response to a commenter who accused him of encouraging people to be judgmental:
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Phoenix wrote:
Fantastic, way to go, Matt (HT: Phoenix)
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Another website mentions the Sovereign Grace Ministries child sexual abuse and cover up lawsuit:
http://urbanchristiannews.com/ucn/2013/06/lawyers-for-plaintiffs-ask-judge-to-reconsider-sovereign-grace-ministries-case.html#.Uavc2etAtzY
The silence is being broken one blogger at a time. Victims are being heard. About 1/3rd of the defendants have already been convicted. Three have been brought to the attention of the authorities: 2 were convicted and 1 proceeded in the juvenile system. One trial is pending in Montgomery Co., Maryland.
Still silent are BIG Christian media: “Christian Post” and “Christianity Today” and “World Magazine.” No peep from them about the allegations since they were released to the public on 5/14/2013. CT’s Gleanings blog has mentioned it twice, but not their headline news site.
“[Their] heart is hard as a stone, hard as the lower millstone.” – Job 41:24
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@ Janey: I don’t know about you, but I am really NOT surprised at the way the large media outlets that you’re monitoring are being conspicuously silent.
I wonder if the Religion News Service (a wire service used by many newspapers) has run anything?
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numo wrote:
numo — yes, RNS ran this:
http://www.religionnews.com/2013/05/24/evangelical-leaders-stand-by-pastor-accused-of-abuse-cover-up/
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I’ve noted this before, but it’s worth noting again…one problem with all of these male leaders is that since they became adults, they have not had any women in authority over them. They have stood in authority over every woman. This is so totally unlike my experience at a secular job. I would personally pay good money to see my executive VP go after a Dever, Piper, Mohler, Mahaney, etc. She is insanely smart and remembers EVERYTHING. She’ll ask a somewhat benign question, and if you don’t give her the detail she’s asking for, she will bore into you with intensity. (Keep in mind, we’re talking about management of an extremely complex worldwide technical environment in a Fortune 500 company.) If my VP’s portfolio was child sexual abuse rather than keeping a large corporation running on a 24/7 basis, she’d be all over these guys and not only would they know it, they’d be ready with a plan to present to her before she even asked the first question.
I’m not saying this is something that is unique to women, but I do think that there’s something missing when you cut out half the human race from the start and then work with a whole set of truly messed-up assumptions about problems and how to fix them (e.g., like that a victim of child rape needs to reconcile with her rapist). There’s just So Much Wrong here, I can’t even begin…but I do know that the Mohlers, Devers, Mahaneys, etc. would HATE my VP, because she would not take their excuses.
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A Catholic blogger comments about the Sovereign Grace Ministries child sex abuse and cover up lawsuit, with an interest perspective.
http://crossed-the-tiber.blogspot.com/2013/05/sex-abuse-crisis-is-not-just-in.html
Blogger Dr. Russ Rentler writes:
“In 1975, I went to a “christian woodstock” called Jesus 75*. It was a huge Jesus festival of music and preaching and charismatic worship with rock bands that was held on a muddy farm in the middle of Pennsylvania. I sat transfixed listening to the testimony and preaching of CJ Mahaney and Larry Tomczak. Both were still twenty-something Catholics at the time and had not yet left the Church and were popular speakers in the charismatic movement of the early 70’s.”
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And this is apropos of nothing, but I found out today that there are churches where the pastors preach sermon series’ on the “Duck Dynasty” cable show. And my mother wonders why I don’t go to church….
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Janey wrote:
I do not know if that is true. I remember back in the late 1970s borrowing a book from the mother of a friend of mine by Larry Tomczak called “Clap Your Hands!” and it was about how his Catholic family started going to (if memory serves, I could be wrong) an Assembly of God church. I do remember the foreward stating that back when the events of the book happened, there was a definite divide between Protestants and Catholics and the book stated “this is not really the case now.” It may be that Tomczak was claiming a Catholic hereitage while at the same time being completely ensconced within Protestant charismatic evangelicalism. It was a long time ago and I was a teenager.
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numo wrote:
nume — Many eyeballs are reading this blog. I would estimate that The Wartburg Watch (TWW) gets at least 500-1000 new visitors EVERY DAY. It’s so important to show that there is a news blackout.
However dozens of bloggers, mainly survivor sites such as SGMSurvivors.com and TheWartburgWatch.com as well as many others are speaking up. For people who are new: Some of the best source material on the Sovereign Grace Ministries child sex abuse and cover up lawsuit is at Brent Detwiler [dot] com. Up until 2009, he was the #2 man at SGM, and his site has links to all of the public legal documents, the attorney contact info, etc.
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Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Southwestern Discomfort (I love that name, by the way) — Yes, the blogger Dr. Rentler mentions the book and the event. The blog post is worth a read.
http://crossed-the-tiber.blogspot.com/2013/05/sex-abuse-crisis-is-not-just-in.html
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@ Southwestern Discomfort:
I haven't read Clap Your Hands (I think Dee did a long time ago), but I found this helpful review over at Amazon.
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Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Southwestern Discomfort — Heh heh. The visual on this is making me laugh out loud.
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For those of you who need a laugh — try out The Martin Luther Insulter. (Similar to the I Shakespeare Insulter.)
http://ergofabulous.org/luther/
(HT: Rachel Held Evans)
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@ Janey:
I know it’s not part of the “Big Christian Media,” but just out of curiosity, has the Christian Science Monitor run anything?
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“I do not understand how and why this kind of assault impacts its victims at such a deep level and how those consequences can extend through an entire lifetime. But I want to understand as much as I am able.”
Glad Challies wants to understand, but I’m not sure why he’s having trouble doing so. I’ve never had trouble understanding how rape, molestation, etc. would give someone some serious baggage to work through, esp. if it happened when they were a child. Sexual acts just aren’t supposed to happen to children. They’re not set up for them physically, emotionally, etc. Having some trouble sympathizing with Challies as I don’t see anything hard to understand about that (and I was never molested either – never even had any “close encounters” like Challies alludes to – so I should have even more trouble understanding than he does).
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Hester wrote:
Hester — I just did a search and saw nothing at csmonitor.com. You’re right. They are usually on top of these things. Here’s their contact page:
http://www.csmonitor.com/About/Contact?nav=undefined-undefined-footerNav
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The next Big Box post is up:
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/02/6000-years-of-earth-history-in-one-hour-tbb/
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@ Southwestern Discomfort: On the contrary – there was a very great deal of Catholic/Protestant intermingling at that time, due to the charismatic renewal. (Including AoGs and Catholics praying together – I have met older RC women who pretty much learned how to pray out loud by following the lead of AoGers.)
I was at Jesus 73, fwiw, and I think maybe Tomczack et. al. were there, too, but I got ill and had to leave before the main speakers were trotted out. It was stiflingly hot; the thing was held in a couple of farm fields in Lancaster County, PA.
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@ Deb: Yep, that’;s my time period as well – and back when SGM was called TAG (for Take and Give), which later morphed into GOB, then PDI (People of Destiny Int’l), and then SGM.
Some of us really have been there and done that! 😉
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@ Janey: I’ve had some go-rounds in the not too distant past with CT, mainly as a commenter, though occasionally as an emailer (to the ed.). In at least one case, I wish I had written an actual, on-paper letter.
There has been a strange drift rightward (theologically and otherwise) at CT since 2008. (Might have started prior to then, but iirc, there was a big change in senior editorial staff in late 07 or early 08.)
They don’t report on a LOT of things that (I think) they should be covering – this is not the only thing by any stretch of the imagination…)
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@ Southwestern Discomfort: fwiw, the Catholic charismatic renewal started in the late 1960s, at a retreat at Duquesne U. in Pittsburgh, though there were other places that could probably be cited as “the first.”
Ecumenism in the wake of Vatican II brought about some tremendous changes, though I’m afraid that there have been persistent attempts to roll things back to the old days in recent decades. 9Just my opinion; neither here nor there for the purposes of this blog.)
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Janey wrote:
Just FYI, the comments are deleted and closed there. Who’s gonna post the screenshot?
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Tikatu wrote:
Tikatu — Deb got a screenshot and so did I. Here they are:
Comments on Kevin DeYoung’s blog post on the Transfer Conference on May 11, 2013 before they were deleted and the comments were closed on 6/2/2013:
1. “You people are sick. I cant believe that you are being involved in this conference with these sick, sick individuals. May the Lord have mercy on your souls.”
May 16, 2013 at 8:48 am, FuzzyWuzzy
2. “I have to question your discernment brother.”
May 16, 2013 at 11:49 pm, Todd Wilhelm
3. “Have you fasted and asked God if maybe, just maybe you have been wrong about CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries? They fooled a lot of us. It’s nothing to be ashamed about, unless you don’t repent when the Lord leads you to.”
May 19, 2013 at 9:31 pm, Becky Boyd
Now this is how it looks — All comments deleted!
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2013/05/11/transfer-conference/
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When the link was posted, I poked my head in and saw about 8 comments. I guess I should have taken a snapshot of that myself.
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Tikatu wrote:
Tikatu and everyone else, you might want to download the free webpage clipper Evernote at http://www.evernote.com. I just did this so that I don’t have to hand transcribe these comments in the future. Sign up using your screen name and whenever you want to save a website and comments, you are set. Evernote saves the webpage in a way you can copy, paste, and search.
Once you install it, you click the icon and it highlights the article you are reading, then you have a choice to save the article or the entire page with the header.
It does take a minute or two to process, so if the page doesn’t load perfectly just wait. I also found that it won’t grab everything. So if there’s an important paragraph or image, you’ll need to do a screen capture as a backup.
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Tikatu wrote:
Tikatu — On their own website, you’d think they would have a lot of supporters, but after watching the Together for the Gospel Facebook page fiasco, where they posted their support for C.J. Mahaney, and several hours later, they deleted 115 comments and deleted the post, I am starting to wonder.
Bill Kinnon copied that Facebook thread before it all got deleted. You’ll see that the comments are running against them about 9 to 1, and most of the commenters appear to be their own Facebook fans:
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s2/sh/e3623beb-3591-4ba2-a332-30f2e94bb79c/48ade443a4715458c112553f82acf8c9
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numo wrote:
numo — I remember a lot of changes. I never asked about the back story.
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Not another conference?!!
The SGM Transfer Conference.
Transfer is for… Young Adults. Transfer will be geared especially toward young adults (18 and over)…
Transfer is for… Teens…
Transfer is for… Parents…
It’s for… Anyone…
Yes. Transfer out of SGM while you still can without being totally tainted by the scandal.
“Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”
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Janey wrote:
Print copies of CT and WM contain lots of ads for RBD’s books and conferences. Perhaps the magazines are afraid of biting the hands that feed them.
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@ Southwestern Discomfort:
You should listen to ‘Fighting for the Faith’ podcast.
Not that I always agree with the show’s host on every issue, but he routinely critiques terrible sermons. He will air the sermons, then comment after them.
In one broadcast, he repeated a sermon by a pastor who used constipation as a point of comparison to Christians who aren’t spiritually productive (or something, I don’t remember what).
Here’s a link to that one:
Constipated Christians?
.
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@ Numo:
I never commented at CT but I did read one (long) comment thread to the end. It was on one of the articles pushing young marriages. It was the most bizarre mix of left and right I’d ever seen, and the right was really strident in some cases. There was one guy who posted in ALL CAPS about how A WOMAN CAN’T JUDGE IF HE’S MATURE BECAUSE HE’S A MAN AND SHE’S A WOMAN and SURE I’M STILL SINGLE BUT I WOULD NEVER DATE AN UNGODLY WOMAN LIKE THAT, etc. (Three guesses why he’s still single…)
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Jenny wrote:
It would be interesting to know how much of it is the shareholder/CEO’s personal preference (Harold Smith at Christianity Today; Richard Land at Christian Post) and how much is Reformed Big Dogs (RBD) advertising. Both motivations have been suggested in comments on TWW. Others have commented that they were silent about the So. Baptist child sex abuse scandal, too, even though perpetrators were convicted.
When Christian magazines consistently cover up the actions of child molesters, and refuse to sound the warning to the average Christian parent who takes her kids to Sunday school and camp, then it has chosen the wrong priorities. God help them.
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TedS. wrote:
Isn’t that the truth!
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Hester wrote:
I happen to believe that underneath what we see happening with SGM, T4G & TGC is an erosion of the “biblical manhood/womanhood” platform. I’ve been told this issue is my “hobby horse” but it is their “hill to die on.” I think it’s the glue that binds these guys together. They believe gender roles and excluding women from full participation in all areas of church ministry is an essential expression of the true gospel, and they must stick together together as a team in order to preserve male authority in the church. But they are wrong, the tide is turning, and it’s true – complementarianism is being challenged, not because it’s under persecution, but because it’s based in sexism and isn’t supported by the religion of Jesus Christ.
Kevin De Young had it wrong when he recently tweeted, “Being a man or a woman has nothing to do with how much God loves you, but it does have something to do with how you love God.” But my guess is, the ALL CAPS commenter who believes it’s wrong for a woman to judge a man would agree. He would use that quote to tell women they aren’t loving God the way they should by engaging in public debate of any kind with men. That they should stay at home where they belong and be quiet. Because that’s how a woman is supposed to express love. Kevin De Young would no doubt agree.
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Bottom line is, when you can silence half your church (the women) and prevent them from participating, it’s much easier to maintain control, isn’t it?
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@ Evie:
He was a very strange commenter…sounded as if he had been dumped/rejected because the girl thought he wasn’t mature enough. At which point he decided to inform the world about HOW MATURE HE WAS by screaming it from the rooftops.
One of my (male) friends once expressed befuddlement at why I got so worked up about gender/abuse issues because they “aren’t as important as gay marriage.” Apparently the church must have a one-track mind and is only allowed to do one thing at a time…?
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Janey wrote:
As much as we’d like this to be true the numbers are smaller. We DO get a 1000 or more new visitors each day but most don’t return which leads us to believe they got here by mistake or think we are nuts and don’t come back. 🙂
Around 3000 a day are repeats. Still not bad for a kitchen table organization. 🙂
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Janey wrote:
The comments are gone – and it’s closed.
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@ Evie:
Yes, it is bizarre that a sidelining view of women is a cornerstone of retro-theology (of all things!). To hold it requires a twisted convolution not only of the tenor of scripture, but also their own consciences and what their lying eyes see in the functioning world. It is not sustainable.
How earthshaking it is for some to accept that women are fully half the Kingdom of God. To avoid it, they remake God in their own image. But really?
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Evie wrote:
I saw him tweet this over and over. And I found myself saying, “Where is that in the Bible?”
I feel sorry for the educated intelligent women in his church. It’s so disrespectful. I don’t hold out any hope of him changing. His Gospel Coalition blog post on 5/29/13 was a message to his church members that he won’t listen to any criticism and all protest is in vain.
Here is his tweet from this weekend that said that you had to stay in your church indefinitely.
https://twitter.com/RevKevDeYoung/status/336978073796870144
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numo wrote:
🙂 My future wife was at Jesus NW in ’78 and fled to the beach to escape the stifling heat and smell of the pea-patch. After she left, Keith Green famously had most of the crowd face-down in that field.
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GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
GBTC — Thank you! I think TWW does a fantastic job for a kitchen table operation. I cannot believe what you guys have achieved. Just the comment moderation alone is a full time job. Keep up the good work!
We commenters need to give as much context as possible to help the newbies. I was a newbie myself not too long ago and I’m still trying to figure out the acronyms and the insider language you all use. Even if 60%-80% of the new visitors bounce, there are still hundreds that stick around and lurk for minutes if not hours.
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Liz wrote:
Liz — A few of us took screen shots. I transcribed 3 of the missing comments from Kevin DeYoung’s blog post on the Transfer Conference on May 11, 2013 before they were deleted and the comments were closed on 6/2/2013. Apparently there were at least 5 more. Does anyone have them captured?:
1. “You people are sick. I cant believe that you are being involved in this conference with these sick, sick individuals. May the Lord have mercy on your souls.”
May 16, 2013 at 8:48 am, FuzzyWuzzy
2. “I have to question your discernment brother.”
May 16, 2013 at 11:49 pm, Todd Wilhelm
3. “Have you fasted and asked God if maybe, just maybe you have been wrong about CJ Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries? They fooled a lot of us. It’s nothing to be ashamed about, unless you don’t repent when the Lord leads you to.”
May 19, 2013 at 9:31 pm, Becky Boyd
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GuyBehindtheCurtain, if TheWartburgWatch.com gets that many visitors a day, you are probably one of the Top 1% or 2% websites on the Internet. Congratulations. Keep standing up for the voiceless, the oppressed, and the needy.
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@ Janey:
From your link, Kevin de Young twitters: “If you are passionate about community show up at church frequently and stick with your church indefinitely.”
Long form: /i/ “I have a dream that people will stay with me no matter what I say, no matter how I hurt others, and no matter how self-righteous I become.
I have a dream that God wants me to be as he is and when all of God’s children see this, that they are to stay with God no matter how wrathful he is, and that they are to stay with me likewise…
Then they will come together to affirm the glory of De Young In God, and then we allow freedom to ring from every village and hamlet, from every state and every city…
Because, as we have been told, it is obedience that will, in the end, cause us to sing, “Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty…” /<i/
/s
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“From your link, Kevin de Young twitters: “If you are passionate about community show up at church frequently and stick with your church indefinitely.”
Amazing how many people fall for this. I think we should require high schoolers to watch the Milgram Experiment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk
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@ Janey:
He’s more subtly condemning than that. He says:
“If you are passionate about community show up at church frequently and stick with your church indefinitely.” Kevin DeYoung
‘Passion’ is apparently a big issue these days. It’s the qualifier in this statement. If you’re not ‘passionate about community,’ you probably are already considered probematic. (I wonder who gets to define what ‘passionate about community’ looks like?) And if you are passionate, according to this pastor, you should show up at the church frequently and stay with that church indefinitely. One thing’s for sure, YOU (member) are the problem if you do anything other than come and stay.
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That tweet seemed to set some bells and whistles off!
I’m sure the problem is us — not.
What’s doubly scary is the mindless ‘amens’ and ‘so goods’ of his followers. 🙁
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@ Hester:
“Apparently the church must have a one-track mind and is only allowed to do one thing at a time…?”
+++++++++++++++++++++
like my husband (and many men I observe). My mother-in-law always says, “Don’t give him any gum!”
surely multi-task-minded women serve church-running very well.
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@ Anon 1:
“From your link, Kevin de Young twitters: “If you are passionate about community show up at church frequently and stick with your church indefinitely.”
++++++++++++
job security for him, and the appearance and feeling of success.
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Someday, some judge of the female persuasion is going to get one of these cases and I would love to be there. Because this male superiority thing is not going to go over very well. (Don’t get me wrong; I think these guys believe they’re above all human judges, male and female, but it would be more obvious witha woman judge.)
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Just know that while you are “sticking with your church indefinitely” the pastor will fly all over the country and speak at conferences. He will also use lots of time to write books and maintain a highly active blog. So while you’re sticking with him indefinitely, he’ll be actively pushing his own agenda with his conference buddies. But by all means, passionately stick with him so the money keeps coming in!
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Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
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scotT wrote:
ScotT — It would be interesting to know what their speaking fees are.
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DeYoung’s denomination ordains women. (RCA) One would think that with the strength of his conviction on this matter, he’d leave the denomination.
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@ Anon 1: Gosh… I don’t want to sound pedantic, but that’s not my understanding of the ruling.
The judge stated that the statute of limitations had expired re. the MD-based plaintiffs.
She did not rule on the merit of the plantiffs’ arguments. The point she made is a technicality, not a declaration on the substance of the civil suit.
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numo wrote:
Gosh, that is not what I meant to communicate and I am sorry it was so fuzzy. Let me explain better. And btw, a lawyer has told me it is NOT a “technicality” and I tend to believe her. She was upholding the SoL law which I believe is a bad law but law it is.
Anywhoo, As per Southwests comment concerning these men and strong career women, I responded that a WOMAN judge, by virtue of not agreeing there was a conspiracy to override the SoL, let Mahaney off scot free. Why? Because if they cannot overcome the SoL in Maryland, not sure how this will ever get to Mahaney. Ergo, strong career woman benefitted Mahaney
Does that make more sense? Now if I got that all wrong, please feel free to correct me. :o)
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scotT wrote:
Bingo Scott!!!
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Anon 1 wrote:
Forgive me if I’ve got this wrong, but aren’t attorneys for the (alleged) victims going for the 7-year statute of limitations in Maryland for Gamby and Doe, as well?
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Janey wrote:
This stuff draws the sycophants out of the woodwork like ants to a picnic.
It’s a veritable love-fest!
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@ Janey: to the best of my knowledge, they are.
this stuff is unnecessarily complicated, imo, but… it’s the way things work. Kind of like chess: your move, the opponent makes a counter, and then you think about the next move, and the next and then 10 down the line.
I’m not surprised that the civil suit met with some initial resistance – and there are criminal investigations going on that have not been publicized, so…
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Janey wrote:
That is what I understand.
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@ Anon 1: This kind of case … well, it’s likely to spur the state legislature to change the law on the statute of limitations.
It has far-reaching implications, but the changes will come a bit further down the road.
The Sandusky case has made waves in PA, per changes in laws regarding the reporting of (alleged) sexual abuse – something that was long overdue.
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Numo, That is what I am hoping for But I am not holding my breath.
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When we visited Providence Baptist Church in Raleigh in February 2013 searching for a church that has a pastor who not only preaches the Word but refuses to be in the old boy club of the Southern Baptists, I was disturbed when the senior pastor introduced CJ Mahaney. I literally thought I was going to get sick. And there was the head elder right up there supporting this man.
I looked around and wondered if I was the only person who was even aware of the countless accusations against this man regarding precious children. I checked with a number of friends and no one knew anything. Clueless.
This is my prediction: the liberals are watching this case closely as evidenced by the Huffington Post. At just the right moment near election time, they will pounce on this big time and the Dems are going to look like angels and fundamentalists Christians are going to be made out to be monsters. Thing is, if this case is true, these people are monsters. When are Baptist ministers going to man up to Mohler and Piper?
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Mark Dever, in addressing CJ’s Louisville Church this past Sunday, mentions he overheard gossips at Al Mohler’s daughter’s wedding on Sat. saying nice things about CJ. Here’s my take on that:
After noticing Mark Dever eavesdropping nearby, the “gossips” probably quickly changed the subject, afraid that Mark might tell Al that his wedding guests were discussing their Mahaney endorsement. The Mahaney’s were probably invited to the wedding along with Dever (and Duncan) but declined attending because it was Carolyn’s birthday, which proved to be a convenient excuse for them to avoid an awkward social situation. Even the statement Mohler co-authored wouldn’t have prevented CJ & Carolyn from being looked at and talked about by Mohler’s wedding guests, many of whom wereo probably aware of “the situation.” My guess is the Mahaney’s would have wanted to be there, but fitting in comfortably with the Louisville social set is proving more difficult than they had planned. Best to retreat into themselves, huddle up with the clan, and do their best to act normal like nothing is wrong, when they all know something is. The Mahaney’s are good about protecting their bubble.
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This goes with my above comment: (hope the link works)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Gdm95YENyYY
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Janice McKenzie wrote:
Janice — Thanks for this story. These men have a 30 year head start. Fortunately the Internet levels the playing field. It’s so important that we have clear summary statements to give people an overview. We will win this one heart at a time. As someone else commented a few days ago, it took 3 years for people to accept the Sandusky victims’ story. There was a lot of resistance. We should accept the same. But the good news is that a lot of public opinion has already shifted.
As you already know, when the six men who support Mahaney put their statement on Facebook May 23, 2013, they had no idea they would get an outpouring of disgust from their own Facebook followers. Within hours more than 100 comments were posted, with the negative comments running 9-to-1 over the supportive ones. Here’s a screenshot taken before Mahaney’s supporters took it down.
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s2/sh/e3623beb-3591-4ba2-a332-30f2e94bb79c/48ade443a4715458c112553f82acf8c9
+ + + +
These are the 4 places I send people who want a quick overview.
+ + + + +
Know the Basics of the Sovereign Grace Ministries Child Sexual Abuse and Cover Up Allegations in 12 minutes or less
1. ABC TV Overview + discussion of defendants who have already been convicted for other child sex crimes (4 minutes, ABC TV affiliate WJLA) – http://www.wjla.com/video/2013/05/church-sex-abuse-allegations.html
2. ABC TV Update on the lawsuit (2 minutes, ABC TV affiliate WJLA)) – http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/05/sovereign-grace-ministries-class-action-civil-lawsuit-involving-child-sex-abuse-88894.html
3. Huffington Post article about the evangelical pastors who are standing up for Mahaney, the key defendant- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/c-j-mahaney-scandal-evangelical-leaders-defend-pastor-accused-of-abuse-cover-up_n_3334500.html
4. What the attorneys plan to do next: Janet Mefferd Show (Christian radio) interview with attorney Bill O’Neil. Interview starts at minute 26:00 – http://www.janetmefferdpremium.com/2013/05/20/janet-mefferd-radio-show-20130520-hr-1/
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Evie wrote:
Evie — This 1.5-minute endorsement of C.J. Mahaney by Mark Dever is strange. Thanks for the insider view of what’s going on behind the scenes.
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Janice
Welcome to TWW. We were aware that PBC had Mahaney there. We are not surprised that Mahaney spoke at that church. There is history. Remember the old adage-birds of a feather?
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@ Janey: Considering Mahaney's stance (he's innocent of all wrong doing; turned his back on CLC, finding refuge in Dever's Capitol Hill Baptist Church before going to Louisville; had SGM leaders issue statement making Brent Detwiler a marked man; believes what people are saying against him on the blogs is all slander, as do his supporters and family members, etc) CJ would have been deeply troubled by Dever's opening words since in them Mark didn't simply ignore the current predicament, something Mahaney had wished he'd done, similar to Piper. Dever even had the guts to mention that he and his church were praying for SGCL, and that its not even legit yet since they don't officially have members. I'm sure that made all the Mahaney's squirm in their seats, so used to having assumed positions of superiority over others. And now, there they all sit in a non-church, the object of the care and concern of others! How humiliating! And CJ hates to be humiliated. All his talk about being humble and the worst sinner he knows was a cover for his very sensitive and easily wounded pride.
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Evie wrote:
Evie — Thanks for sharing this. It's hard for an outsider to understand what's going on in their heads. Would you infer from this that Mahaney's friends have reached their limit, or do you think they are willing to continue to lose their own reputations for him?
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dee wrote:
I definitely agree. They’ve essentially gone “all in” with their wagers. No backing out now without heavy fallout.
I also think that one big issue here is the Neo-Reformed movement in general. If you are a Piper or Mohler or Dever or Carson, an attack against the way Mahaney handled this situation is an attack on the way you would handle this situation. So, in my view, this is also about protecting an entire way of doing ministry (the Neo-Reformed/YRR/Calvinista way). For them, this lawsuit doesn’t just threaten Mahaney, it threatens his (and their) hyper-authoritarian, nouthetic, complementarian, Neo-Reformed ministry model.
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Also, I was thinking the other day about the now infamous T4G and TGC statements, and it struck me that many of the men who signed them also represent well-known evangelical institutions. Mohler and the SBC, Carson and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Dever and 9Marks, etc.
I wonder – how do Southern Baptists feel about one of their most well-known figures making such a public, foolish, and sinful blunder? And how does the EFCA feel about one of the most famous professors at their flagship seminary (TEDS) doing the same?
I can’t help but think that the SBC and EFCA should be hearing warning bells going off, at least in terms of PR, and at best in terms of doing the right thing.
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“Instead, he was charged with founding a ministry and for teaching doctrines and principles that are held to be true by vast millions of American evangelicals.”
Can any light be shed on why they think this way? Is there something that whey are referring to that I am missing?
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Jon wrote:
Jon — They are trying to play the Christians-are-being-persecuted card. It’s an attempt to deflect attention from the child sexual abuse and cover up lawsuit where Mahaney is a key defendant. (From this point forward everything below is “alleged” for the lawyers out there.)
The sentence you are quoting is from the middle of a paragraph that begins like this:
Bottom line?
C.J. Mahaney *is* being accused of credible serious and direct wrong doing.
Here are some of the paragraphs in the lawsuit that mention him directly:
#109
Defendants Ecelbarger, Mullery and V. Hinders, conspiring together with Mahaney and Loftness, violated the mandatory reporting obligations and conspired together to cover up [name withheld pending court ruling on defense motion]‘s molestation of children.
#157
Rather than report the ongoing abuse to secular authorities or take any steps to stop the abuse, Defendants informed the father that his children had reported the abuse. This led to further abuse by the father. In exchange for the conspiracy of silence, the abusive father paid to send Defendants Mahaney, Ricucci, and Layman and their families on vacation to the Kiawah Islands, South Carolina.
#138
Discovery will show that Defendants Mullery, David Hinder and Vince Hinders (sic) spoke with Maryland-based Defendants Mahaney and Loftness, and together conspired to prevent any reporting to the secular authorities.
— Just to give you an idea, here are summaries (not verbatim due to the graphic nature) of just a few of the 150+ paragraphs that give names, locations, and sexual acts committed to children. —
#51
Defendant David Adams was convicted and served jail time. He was welcomed back into the church without the church taking any effective steps to prevent him from having continued access to children.
#178
Defendants permitted David Adams, a known pedophile, to attend church-sponsored sleepovers without advising parents about his sexual deviance.
#173
…they permitted Griney to teach and have unfettered access to children, and conspired to cover up the facts.
#177
On or about August 17, 2011, Defendants admitted during a meeting that they placed protecting the churches from lawsuits over and above the safety of children. This admission revealed ….[they were] acting for financially motivated reasons, had designed and agreed upon a plan to obstruct justice, yet permit predators to continue to have unfettered access to children in church and school settings.
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About 1/3 of the defendants have already been reported to the authorities for child sex crimes. Two have been convicted and are in jail. One proceeded in the juvenile system. One case is ongoing now.
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Mr. H
Sometims people need to see the underbelly to understand the problem with the way these men interpret their bibles to suit themselves. I am so glad this happened. Suddenly, the polished leaders do not see quite so bright. They fogot to polish their hearts and t makes them rather dull indeed.
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@ Jon: Janey answered it well in her comment. My $0.02 worth? They appear to be telling a “falsehood.” It’s Scriptural if you are a “leader.”
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dee wrote:
This truly is sad…sad for the victims of abuse for sure, but also sad for the kingdom. Micah 6:8 is so aptly missing from the statements and actions of these “leaders” The world is watching.
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@ Janey:
Thank you so much for taking the time and explaining this to me.
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Mr.H wrote:
This is crazy….even if you are in line with those things they can not be justification for abuse and covering that abuse up. As I said…this is simply crazy!
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Jon wrote:
Friends and business arrangements trump justice in the secular world. Why not here? One thing is for certain, depravity is alive and well in the rarefied circles of “leadership.”
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@ Evie:
@ Janey:
How and where did you get this information? Can we get the more detailed report? I am horrified to hear this and to read that these top Christian leaders can still back CJ; but then, the past 20 years of my own personal experience with them has seen CLC/SGM leader after CLC/SGM leader cover for CJ. These things do need to be taken to secular courts because SGM has refused over and over again to follow what they’ve preached themselves at CLC and at Ken Sande’s Peacemaker Conferences, should be taking place in the church, about following Matt. 5 and 18 to resolve offenses. I would have had a far fairer, just, Biblical hearing in a secular court than I could ever get at CLC, and CJ was the main offender against me (no sexual or physical abuse here).