Welcome to a Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg
Here Is Our Order of Worship
If you are new to EChurch, please click on this link for an explanation
All prayers, except where noted, are taken from the online Book of Common Prayer link
A Prayer for the Oppressed
Almighty and most merciful God,
we remember before you
all poor and neglected persons
whom it would be easy for us to forget:
the homeless and the destitute, the old and the sick,
and all who have none to care for them.
Help us to heal those
who are broken in body or spirit,
and to turn their sorrow into joy.
Grant this, Father, for the love of your Son,
who for our sake became poor,
Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
Prayer for Peace
Eternal God, in whose perfect kingdom no sword is drawn
but the sword of righteousness, no strength known but the
strength of love: So mightily spread abroad your Spirit, that
all peoples may be gathered under the banner of the Prince of
Peace, as children of one Father; to whom be dominion and
glory, now and for ever.
Amen.
Scripture Reading: I Corinthians 15:20 (NASB Bible Gateway)
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
A Special Prayer for the Abused from TWW
Our Father,
Today we remember those children
who have been abused by predators.
We especially remember those who have been abused in our churches
Which failed to be places of refuge.
Give these children your strength and healing.
May they know your love in the midst of pain.
We remember their parents
Give them your peace. Heal their broken hearts.
For those who have known and not cared,
We ask that you turn their hearts of stone
Into hearts of love, care and compassion.
We pray for repentance.
For those of us who know, and feel helpless,
Give us perseverance and courage.
In the name of our Lord who loved the children
Amen
O Lord, support us all the day long,
until the shadows
lengthen, and the evening comes,
and the busy world is
hushed, and the fever of life is over,
and our work is done.
Then in thy mercy, grant us a safe lodging,
and a holy rest,
and peace at the last.
Amen.
When I am moved to focus upon the wind and the waves, I begin to sink; but Jesus bid me come! His eyes upon the sparrow, my eyes upon Him!
Sopy
Sopy,
Yes, we must keep our eyes fixed on Jesus.
I feel so bad for Rick Warren and his family. I can’t imagine how it must feel to lose a child, and to know that he felt his mental torment was just too great to continue living. I don’t pray much but dear God, please be there for them. Amen.
As always, I loved this service. I do have a question for Wade in case he stops in….smile.
You said that according to 1 Cor. 15:20, because of the resurrection of Christ, we are guaranteed we will be raised from the dead. My question is, should I die tomorrow, where will I go? I think we only get our transformed, immortal body when Christ returns, so what will I be upon death until then? Spirit? Soul?
Hope I made sense about that. That time following death is an unknown and so it (kinda) worries me.
Love how you showed how Christ fulfilled the various feasts. I know some believe that Tabernacles has yet to be fulfilled. Is that so?
Thank you all for this ministry. My son and his wife haven’t been to church for years and I’ve referred them here in hopes healing will come through the caring hearts here.
Victorious,
Excellent question. Christians have disagreed on the answer. I will give you three possible answers. (1). Some, like Randy Alcorn, hold to the belief that you go immediately to heaven and are given a “temporary” body, similar to the one you have now, but it is “temporary” in that it is like a robe you get when you go to a spa. It’s used for a specific purpose and for a set time, and when Christ comes you are then given your eternal body. (2). Some believe that the moment you die you go immediately to heaven and are given your eternal body which is something different in quality than the one you have now – made fit for eternity, but recognizable (3). Others believe that your body goes into the grave and you “sleep” until you are awakened at the Second Coming, and then your body rises from the grave in perfect proportion, without disease, and made fit for eternity. All three positions hold, correctly in my view, that no human being exists apart from a body. Humans are not spirits, or angels without bodies in heaven — we are body and soul always.
I honestly am not dogmatic on this issue because I could hold all three. Jon Zens, whom I respect greatly, holds #3. Many preterists whom I respect hold to #2, and most people I know hold to #1.
Regardless, your question is “where do I go” when I do. The answer – heaven. Even if you don’t rise from the grave until the Coming of Christ, it would be a little like going under anesthesia during surgery. The VERY NEXT thing you remember after closing your eyes is waking up. When you die, the VERY NEXT thing you will remember is being in heaven with your glorified body.
How that happens is open for debate. That it happens is the essence of Christianity. By the way, heaven is the earth with the curse reversed. It is not a cloud where you float playing a harp. It is a renewed earth with the dysfunction of sin and lawlessness gone.
Hope that helps – it was typed very quickly as I was on my way out the door for evening meetings.
Thanks for listening and commenting.
Thank you, Wade! It does help in that it seems regardless of which of the three possibilities one believes, there will be peace. I can’t help wishing God had seen fit to be a bit more specific about that so we would be certain what awaits us. 🙂 I tend to think Paul saw the death of the physical/human body as the gateway to the presence of the Lord when he said:
Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord– for we walk by faith, not by sight– we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:6-8
And I certainly agree with you on this:
“By the way, heaven is the earth with the curse reversed. It is not a cloud where you float playing a harp. It is a renewed earth with the dysfunction of sin and lawlessness gone.”
Thanks for taking the time to answer, Wade.
Thank you!
@ Wade Burleson:
From the other side, eternity, there will be no awareness of the passing of “time” so, from the other side, there will be no awareness of whether we are instantly in heaven or we “sleep” for a time. That is, at death, we, as Christians, become timeless.
Wade,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to that important question posed by Victorious. I, too, have wondered what happens when we take our last breath.
Welcome back! You were definitely missed by the TWW community.
@ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:
Yesterday Tony Jones wrote of Ex 3:14, ” “Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh means “I will be that who I have yet to become.” It doesn’t mean “I am who I am,” or “I will be who I will be.””
That may not be new to anyone but me. But with that kind of name, it’s quite possible that God will be involving us in some form of sequential experiences while in heaven.
Thanks, Deb!
@ Patrice:
I am sure there will be a sequence of experiences, but that does not imply an awareness of time. On an eternal scale, a human life is like a second. Here and gone. To those on the other side, the question of do we go directly or do we sleep would be an imperceptible difference.
Discriminating Discernment: “Whoopee Cushion Logic Perhaps?”
Pastor Wade,
Hey,
Wartburg Watch has put forth the thought provoking question, (in the general sense) in a previous post: what s discernment?
What?
Which leads to the simple nagging, thought-provoking, and engaging question, why should Wartburg ‘readers’ listen to you? What discernment (powers or secret decoder ring) do you have to offer Wartburg ‘readers’ and why? There are many voices, many religious educators, whu should anyone listen to you? What is it you have to offer Wartburg ‘readers’? What makes you & your church any different from the ornamental brick an mortar proverbial religious white washed tombs many of these kind folk left behind, many out of necessity, some out of force, and some out of shear survival.
huh?
What differentiates you from the sometime nefarious and questionable leaders, educators, and teachers, Wartburg Watch has filled its pages with? Why would anyone have the corner of the religious “market” on ‘discernment’. What makes you ’eminently qualified’ to educate others? What makes you think you’ve got it (discernment) right?
hmmm…
Hath God said equals hath the Bible said equals hath pastor Wade said? Kind folks are asking…doesn’t even matter? (…delicate discerning taste buds spuds wish to inquire: How doth your garden grow? )
…To discern, or not to discern? That is the question? A dish fit for God Above? Shall I compare the church to a mid-summer’s day–Thou art more discerning? Thou art more temperate? rough winds doth shake the proverbial darling buds of May, and summer’s lease hath all too short a date?
This above all: to Christ Jesus be true? What is His church, that it should come to this? What a piece of work is the present day church! how noble in spirituality! how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how express and admirable? in action how pungent? in apprehension how Christ-like? thy beauty as of a golden ring in a swine’s snot, the paragon of precipitousness perhaps?
(sadface)
My ‘table’ being yet full, go ye ‘hither’, ‘thither’ and ‘yon’, and bid them all come? prepare ye the brightness of His coming? fresh oil for the blackened lamps, perhaps?
Sopy
—
Which leads to the simple nagging, thought-provoking, and engaging question, why should Wartburg ‘readers’ listen to you?
Because Wade loves the Lord His God with his whole heart, soul, and mind and it reflects in his sermons. Because Wade loves his neighbor as himself and that love is extended to the poor, sick, dying, of the homosexual persuasion, the wealthy, hurting, etc. and all equally.
Because Wade is transparent and has no agenda other than to serve the body of Christ. He’s said many times that the word “pastor” is a verb, not a noun. He cares for the sheep by feeding them while at the same time encouraging them to cling steadfastly to the Chief Shepherd and run the race with endurance.
So many reasons, but most of all because God has blessed his ministry and readers and listeners are maturing as a result of being fed the meat of the Word.
Sopy,
Thank you.
@ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:I like your answer. Hugh Ross says that time is its own dimension (something I gather that most scientists believe). There are apparently @ 11 dimensions which means our 3 dimensional world is encompassed within all the others. Time, as a dimension, is like a wrapper on all of those dimensions. God then could live in another dimension which is outside of that time wrapper. So, He is at once timeless and can also enter into time as well. One could imagine that once we enter His domain (dimension), we too, are outside of time.
I am of the thought that we go to heaven to be with Jesus when we die. Jesus told the thief on the cross that “Today you will be with in paradise.” That does sound rather immediate. Also, on the Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus was ministered to by Moses and Elijah which does seem to give support to some ongoing life after death. However ,since it is outside of time, things could look very different once one is embedded into a timeless dimension.
@ Victorious:Thank you for saying this. Deb and I are both thing the same way.
@ Sopwith: We can listen or not listen but Deb and I really like to listen to Wade.
@ dee: Paul talks about departing and being with the Lord.
I have always understood this – and “Today thou shalt be with me in paradise” – to mean immediately after death.
The whole “soul sleep” thing has never made much sense to me; ditto for people trying to figure out the kinds of things Wade wrote about above.
I think Sopy was giving a compliment in her usual artistic manner and I received it as such.
Of course, if I misread Sopy, I still receive her words! 🙂 Criticism is as much a gift of grace as compliments.
A Missive Ding Or An Lifesaving Spiritual Inoculation?
HowDee,
hmmm…
“….which leads to the simple nagging, thought-provoking, and engaging question, why should Wartburg ‘readers’ listen to you?” -Sopy
“So many reasons, but most of all because God has blessed his ministry and readers and listeners are maturing as a result of being fed the meat of the Word.” -Victorious
huh?
the introduction of a spiritual antigen into a living “Church Body” to stimulate the production of antibodies, perhaps?
What?
…In those days a decree went out from Wartburg Watch that all the blog readers should read meticulously read the Bible and all went to read, to each his or her own favored translation doing their best to present themselves to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth with the strong understanding that whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope therefore, do not believe every spirit in the proverbial blogosphere, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many icky false prophets have gone out into the Church, yet, every word of God proves true; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him; His word being a lamp unto our widdle feet, and a light unto His path for us!
Yahooooo!
Sopy
—
hmmm…
…maturing as a result of being “fed” the meat of the Word?
Yet, can they feed themselves?
Are they taught to do so?
To read the bible unencumbered by the trite pastoral dribble we are hearing from certain pulpits today, present company exempted…
“Give king folk a fish and you feed them for a day. Teach kind folk to fish and you feed them for a lifetime.” -Chinese Proverb, adapted.
discerning the discerned discernment, perhaps?
Sopy
—
Hey 56 years: It’s not at all important—I was just poking around, yes? Very little info about any of it and we both know that God will take care of it beautifully, any which way.
Dee wrote: “God then could live in another dimension which is outside of that time wrapper. So, He is at once timeless and can also enter into time as well. One could imagine that once we enter His domain (dimension), we too, are outside of time.” Yet, whatever we will be once this is over, we will still be our full selves, in what scripture likes to call “a new heaven and new earth”. I wonder what this heaven/earth would look like without the earth/moon revolving around sun, seasons, etc. Not to say it couldn’t be downright most amazing, if God thought it best.
I don’t suggest that there’ll be time as we understand it, or even whether it will be something that could be legitimately called “time” but it does seems to me that we will be moving through/in/along something that causes even God to say: “I will be that who I will become”
I also would prefer to be immediately with God in paradise after I’m done here: no purgatorial state, thank you very much, or required to interview with Peter before the pearly gates, or lying amoulderin’ in the ground in deep sleep. And if, on the off-chance, I do get a pair of wings and a golden harp once I’m there, well, great, as long as I can lay them aside when I wish so as to spend a great deal of (sequencing) (processing) to be my plain self but completely restored.
Thus ends this passage of silliness.
Sopy,
Yet, can they feed themselves?
Are they taught to do so?
Yep! Paul said at some point, we should be graduate from a student of the “milk” (or elementary principles) to mature believers capable of teaching.
But there’s always more to learn and different perspectives to consider and that’s where good, mature teachers, elders, and pastors minister to the sheep. That’s the beauty of “one-anothering” in the body of Christ as the one who teaches sometimes learns from those being taught.
🙂
numo wrote:
I was thinking of the same thing…
@ Sopwith:
I usually take my sermons where I can find them. Sometimes it comes from the tree in my front yard, sometimes from a book or a song or a painting, and sometimes from people around me or online.
The source of my discernment is the Holy Spirit inside of me who inspires/enlivens/awakens me to the truths out there. So sometimes Wade’s offerings will have something for me, sometimes not, depending. My job is to keep my heart open to the HS and also keep my mind/eyes/ears open to what’s out there/here.
Wade has education and practical experience working with people regarding spiritual issues, which can be particularly useful. For eg, I enjoyed his recent blog treatise on Artemis. Very helpful, Wade!
Someone likely has to run the organization when groups form into churches, but I opine that having pastors as leaders-over is not a great idea, having seen/experienced much abuse from same. You too, likely. I insist on a completely horizontal relationship between humans, where the only verticality exists with those same humans to God. So I operate as such in my own life, and I don’t go to church.
I agree that not teaching people how to fish keeps the power with the pastor instead of spreading it around to all believers. I have no idea how Wade functions in his church.
I think you make good points, Sopy.
“Blow Hard Or Blowhard?”
HowDee,
“That’s the beauty of “one-anothering” in the body of Christ as the one who teaches sometimes learns from those being taught.” -Victorious —@ Victorious:
huh?
In the present context of Wartburg Watch e-church, the victims of spiritual abuse have for the most part, no ‘Body of Christ’ ta speak of!?! …they might not even have a good lawyer.They do however have access to a bible, if they would only take the time to read it.
Blogs however ministering are not the body of Christ, they are private entities, just like private church organizations. Private church entities are not “The Body Of Christ”, Yet they can evict you from the parking lot… lol
No ‘ding’ in the fender intended Wartburg…
(grin)
You asked a generally inferred question: What is discernment?
hmmm…
I asked the simple question: Why should we listen to (name goes here) ? Pastor Wade just happened to be getting coffee…
Anyone care to take a stab at it?
Sopy
—
@ Patrice:
I mean, MY passage of silliness, not the inquiry itself by other people. Hope that didn’t come across wrong.
Sopy,
You asked the question: “Why should we listen to (name goes here)?”
You listen out of politeness, interest, or necessity. For example, some times you are forced to listen because you are attending an anniversary event, a wedding ceremony, a child’s baptism, etc…. It is polite to listen. Other times your interest is piqued by the title of a particular talk, the subject matter, or some other personal reason. Still other times you are at work and you must listen to your boss, or you are at school and must listen to the professor, etc…. Regardless, one listens out of politeness, interest, or necessity.
I think the more appropriate question is: “Why should we believe that what we are listening to is truth?” Answer: You shouldn’t.
That’s why the Berean Christians were commended by God. They heard Paul speak, but they didn’t just accept what he said as truth, but “for they received the word they received from Paul with eagerness, examining the Scriptures for themselves daily to see whether the things he said were true” (Acts 17:11).
Bottom line: You don’t receive what somebody says just because of who says it – you search it out for yourselves to see whether the things said are true according to the Scriptures. I believe this is what you are saying, and I affirm what you have said.
@ Sopwith:
Yah, I don’t even have a good lawyer, either. People like you and me are solitarized and sometimes it feels awful and it’s certainly not the way it was meant to be, especially not for people like us. I don’t know what to do about it, though; we are set into our peculiar culture, very individualistic, and when people slip through the loosely-established community cracks, they fall straight into loneliness.
I take the online substitute, flawed and limited as it is, because it helps. It helps me to read what you write, to think about it and respond back. Ditto most everyone else here. As I wrote a while back, I love to be useful and when people are useful back to me, it provides some additional meaning to me (even though incomplete).
I also find solace in what’s around me: cat, dog, couch, internet, house, garden, a friend who sometimes visits, my sister who lives “not too far”, my daughter and fiancé. These occur in 3-D color (super-sized nourishment) because they lay over/around my throughout-the-day relationship with God. Altogether, it makes for a fairly decent symphony. Not the way it’s supposed to be, at some levels deeply inadequate, but at least enough for an occasional grin on my face.
Which brings me to the Bible, which I’ll send to next comment, due to length.
@ Wade Burleson:
You wrote: “They do however have access to a bible, if they would only take the time to read it.” Well, I have been again recently picking up the Bible but I am having some problems with it:
1. I received a load of garbage about what the Bible says when I was young and it is tres difficile to pick that out of from between the lines, even now, decades later. It doesn’t help, either, that much of current Christianity spouts on in a trashy manner similar to my childhood.
2. When I read the Bible as-is, on its face, it has the dear and incredible story of Jesus, astonishing wisdom, some glaring contradictions, and occasional downright nastiness. I think it is those apparent contradictions and nastinesses that create the trash from my childhood and that still continues in the church.
3. Therefore, the Bible only makes full sense to me (even after I succeed in picking out the trash) when I understand it in context, which requires expertise in Greek/Hebrew and deep Near East history. Which I don’t have. And therefore must rely on others for.
But it doesn’t seem to me that God would set it up so that His/Her complete Word would be contained in a manuscript that, without expert study doesn’t make complete sense to later cultures. So I suspect that God meant us to use the Holy Spirit (that other aspect of Him/Her self) as a guiding light by which to be that Berean Christian Wade mentions in above comment.
I could be wrong but it works very very well for me.
@ Patrice:
Oops, Wade, I meant that as a follow-up to last comment to Sopy. Sorry!
“You don’t receive what somebody says just because of who says it – you search it out for yourselves to see whether the things said are true according to the Scriptures.” -Pastor Wade Burleson.
Wade,
Thank you.
perceptive.
next time use the nine iron…
You’ll got a better piece of it.
(grin)
Indirectly, for example, SGM, and ACTS 29 people, as you imply by your statement, these sad folks are personally responsible for what misfortune befell them as a direct result of not following the scriptural mandate of searching out the Scriptures for the truthfulness of their leader’s assertions, and actions?
That hey have suffered great harm, a great many of hem, that they have no one to blame but themselves? Is that what you are implying, or possibly inferring?
That if we don’t search out the Scriptures (for ourselves) that bad things might happen to us, maybe even to include abuse by say, a ‘Christian Pastor’?
What defense do we have when facing the possibility of maltreatment or spiritual abuse, or worse? Read the Scriptures, and follow them with personal responsibility and proper action?
(Will that keep us out of the pit certain of these present day pastors are apparently digging for ‘those’ un-discerning members?)
Trust God, His Spirit, His Son, the Word of God, yet politely all others verify?
Do we have to listen and/or follow a pastor that is spiritually abusing, possibly misleading the members of his church? How do we know? Will the pages of the Scriptures tell us?
What Spiritual ‘IFF’ system should we use?
hmmm…
Sopy
—
Patrice, Thanx for watching my six. Means a lot. Sorry the buzzards in your past confused you. Please take a moment and re-read the gospel of John, and tell me what you think? I value your presence & your input here @ Wartburg.
You Matter.
Sopy
—
Patrice wrote:
Ditto – and as an adult in the cult/church I was in. It took almost two years after I got out of there before I could even pick it up and look at it. I still struggle and don’t read it often. To contrast for perspective, when I was in the cult/church, I read a minimum of 8 chapers a day – 4 from OT and 4 from NT. And I studied….the trouble is, when you have been indoctrinated from birth with certain interpretations and doctrinal overlays to the book, it can be a real challenge to undo that – to peel back each layer, like an onion, until you get to the truth.
And I’m with you: the only one that exists that can speak truth through all things is the Holy Spirit. Men can take the bible and twist it into lies. But the Holy Spirit will speak truth through anything and everything available.
Sopwith wrote:
This is a very good point. Like I mentioned in my comment above, when you are trained to see ‘the correct interpretation’ every time you read the bible, you will see it back up what they say. I still struggle with that…thanks for making the point.
Patrice wrote:
Nothing silly about it Patrice, you bring up good questions. Maybe heaven is different for different folks who like different strokes. I sure hope it is, cuz’ I have no desire for a mansion with jewel encrusted vistas, and I certainly have NO DESIRE to rule and reign over others. I’m hoping the Almighty will just leave me to my own devices and say happy trails.
@ Muff Potter:
Jewel-encrusted vistas–is there a way to do that without being absolutely tasteless? With God, all things are possible–it’ll be fun to see how that gets worked out.
I wildly hope to collaborate on an animal with God. Say He/She is involved in yet another creation and I’m asked to make a creature for the new planet. Would take a long (process) (sequence) to learn what all goes into it, I’m sure. Oooooo fun! And then I’d stand back while God breathes life into the little beastie and I’d get to track what happens through time (likely it would exist in some form of time, yes?). Write a fully illustrated book: “The Life and Times of a Ftholusciet” 🙂
@ Sopwith:
Good morning, Sopy. I’ve been missing your curly-cues, swoops, and stars. Hope you’re doing ok and that you feel frisky today.
I like the book of John and will look into it again this week, per your request. (I see what you’re doing, trying to get me over and back, hah). Recently I read through the book of Isaiah in a sitting and cried when finished because it was splendidly beautiful and heartbreakingly accurate.
You matter, too, dear Sopwith.
Just sent long comment for Jeannette and it seems to have been lost. If it appears, delete one please?
@ Jeannette Altes:
“I read a minimum of 8 chapers a day – 4 from OT and 4 from NT. And I studied….the trouble is, when you have been indoctrinated from birth with certain interpretations and doctrinal overlays to the book, it can be a real challenge to undo that – to peel back each layer, like an onion, until you get to the truth.”
Arg yes. I suppose we can be glad that the Bible is genuinely great literature–at least we weren’t obliged to imbibe schlock along with the trash
I (and this is only me) have little desire to go through the lengthy arduous (sometimes triggering) labor of peeling layer after layer from the Bible. I take a dive here/there and where I find safety, I mark it for future reference.
I’d don’t worry about it, and here’s why. We were taught to function through the hours of our days in a structure of cranking ever-tightening discipline. We had to stay at it no matter how it felt, and we had to “make it fruitful”. (I mean, 8 chapters were the tip of the iceberg, right?) We were taught that it is the correct way to live and we endured the bleak persistence of it, year in year out, and were told that if we were right with God, it would make us happy. So we tried and tried. How we tried!
Well, that structure of “discipline” is itself garbage and I decided it also needed shredding/shedding. So I no longer crank on myself and call it good, no longer make myself search through filth for that bit of value—when I do, it feels too much like when I scoured my (supposed) dirty putrid self for that speck of redeemed goodness. I just don’t want anything to do with any of it anymore.
And it’s ok. The world is a deep expanse and God is found everywhere around/within/among. The redundancy and multiplicity God set into this world is truly remarkable and I needn’t peel back layers and layers of stinkin’ rot to get to Him/Her. Of course, there’s garbage out there, too, but not the kind that badly hurt me so it’s easier to shrug away.
Basically, I’ve gone to play where it smells better.
“Sententia Scriptium Maximus?”
HowDee,
hmmm…
The Burleson Maxim:
” You don’t receive what somebody says just because of who says it – you search it out for yourselves to see whether the things said are true according to the Scriptures.”
huh?
Kind folks received the word from Pastor (Name Goes Here) with eagerness…Yet, these kind folk “examined the Scriptures for themselves” daily to see whether the things he said were true…
Just take a pebble and cast it to the sea…
Thanx Pastor Wade.
Yet,
@ what point do we politely after intently listening to a nefarious Church Pastor that is speaking, teaching, and leading “Contrary To Scripture…” –at what point do we say to them,
“Hey, your are full of manure!”
“Hey, your are ‘really’ full of manure!”
“Hey, your are ‘really’ ‘really’ full of manure!”
-snark-
And what about their unfortunate (yet-be-Berean) victims…who have been filled with their manurial nonsense?
And I Heard A Sharp Voice Come Out Of A Nefarious_Church_Pastor: “We Are Legion…”
hmmm…
(sadface)
Sopy
—
Muff
After meeting Jesus, I look forward to the time with the saints like you guys!
Jeannette Altes,
Hey,
Younsaid:
“Like I mentioned in my comment above, when you are trained to see ‘the correct interpretation’ every time you read the bible, you will see it back up what they say. I still struggle with that…thanks for making the point.”
I said : “…misfortune befell them as a direct result of not following the scriptural mandate of searching out the Scriptures for the truthfulness of their leader’s assertions, and actions?”
There is such sadness in this.
I am very saddened by those who say they are ‘leaders of the faith’, yet deliver not the heartfelt encouraging words:
“Search Ye The Scriptures!”
…how many broken lives could be spared with these four simple words.
(sadface)
Sopy
___
P.S. Jeannette, I can not begin to fathom what you have gone through in life experiences. (I am speechless) I am just so dang happy you’ve not given up on Jesus.
Some have.
I am glad you are here @ Wartburg.
May our Lord picnic with you this spring, and refresh you with His many wonders.
My prayers go with you…
Blessings!
Sopy
—
Patrice,
Hey,
You treasure your life’s lit’l sunbeams. I am glad that the being you joy.
✿*´¨)
(¸.•` ¤ …wether it is the paint brush, or the pen…
You have so much to offer!
let you music sing.
Thank you for sharing, and for your kind words.
“He” has been gooooood ta me!
Yehaaaaaaa
>-((S“㋡”py((º>™
__
P.S. I will re-read the Gospel of John again this week as well. You Matter! 🙂
—
I just now watched this sermon. Once again, God spoke the words I need to here now, right now. When Wade said that I can be happy even though I have lost everyone and that I will see them again, I played it again and again. I have no family left here on earth. But they are all saved and I will see them again.That is my only hope in this life. I forget this when I am grieving so. God bless you Wade.
Scooter’s Mom,
Our lives are but a blink compared to eternity. Your hope in the resurrection is what true Christianity is all about. Thanks for your comment.
Wade mentioned that we christians don’t read and study the bible enough. I read it but I really don’t know how to study it. What resources do I use? which ones do I trust? Do I have to be a bible scholar and study greek to get the truth from the bible? I don’t have hours each day to study. Wade, what do I do?
@ Patrice:
Yes, any time I pick the book up and it ‘smells bad,’ I put it down and tell God what I think and we go do something else. And I get ” a dive here/there and where I find safety, I mark it for future reference.” I have a few ‘anchor’ spots that have shine through. I reference them as needed.
And yes, the reading of chapters was just the tip of the ice-burg. By the time I walked away from the church I was a leader at, I was spending 60+ hours a weeks at the church – unpaid. The freedom that came with walking away was scary at first, but now…. ah…. 😉
@ Sopwith:
Sopy, thank you.
The temptation to give up on God has been there from time to time, but then there’s Jesus. And he is the only place I have ever found even a whiff of Life, so….he’s stuck with me. 🙂
Scooter’s Mom wrote:
I’ll give you two good starting points. Get a translation easy for you to understand (or even a paraphrase). I would suggest the NAS or The Message (a paraphrase) and read the Bible like you would a Tom Clancy or John Grisham novel. Read it for pleasure and read it for the long haul. Understanding begins with familiarity.
After that, you can go to other helps, but this is a start.
Patrice wrote:
Amen to the whole comment Patrice! For years I believed that the Almighty does not tolerate different drummers, now I believe otherwise.
Thank you Wade!
Dear Wartburg readers,
Recently, I gave Pastor Wade, a golden opportunity here to tell The Wartburg Watch readers of the hope within himself, what makes him different than the multitude of proverbial so-pastors that have brought so much damage to the Protestant church here in the United States today.
He Failed. (sorta)
Even our blog hostess Dee apparently wondered as to my motivation. (sadface)
The largest problem for Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) is that they ‘replaced’ the Son of God, for a proverbial dog of a spiritual son, as it were, for a cheep imitation. (ACTS 29 was in a similar process.)
As of 2008, many of the members (of SGM) had become resistant to the very one who had come to save them. They could no longer stomach much that the Scriptures had to offer them.
hmmm…
—
Pastor Wade,
You were provide an enterprising opportunity to tell The Wartburg Watch readers, of ‘the hope that lies within you’; –that which differentiates you from the many proverbial pastoral ‘clowns’ that are rendering such havoc to the Body Of Christ, these days, here in North America.
A golden opportunity?
huh,
Might I say, you got a piece of it with the:
The Burleson Maxim: ” You don’t receive what somebody says just because of who says it – you search it out for yourselves to see whether the things said are true according to the Scriptures.”
i’m afraid that politeness went out with the :”Contrary to Scripture” , we are all hearing so much about these days,
-snark-
So many proverbial victims, so lit’l time?!?
tis, tis…
Care to try again?
I have put this off for far too long…
Why should we ‘listen’ to…(proverbial pastoral name goes right here)?
>-((S“㋡”py((º>™
—
King David’s life was filled with pressure, pain, and persecution.
What?
In spite of the circumstances in which David found himself, persecution, pressure, and possible constant pain, David found comfort in the safety of the Lord; and realized that nothing could ever destroy the relationship that he enjoyed with God.
In Psalm 4, David acknowledged that his relationship and security was not based on who he was or what he did.
His eternal safe keeping was completely from God.
He declared, “I will both lie down in peace, and sleep; for You alone, O Lord, make me dwell in safety.”
Today, we who have trusted Jesus Christ as Savior, that no matter what transpires in your life we are safe in Him.
I m reminded of an old hymn chorus :
“‘Safe Am I’. Safe am I, safe am I, in the hollow of His hand. Sheltered o’er, sheltered o’er, with His love ‘forevermore. No ill can harm me, no foe alarm me, for He keeps both day and night. Safe am I, safe am I, in the hollow of His hand.’ ‘Truly today I am eternally safe.’ ”
Ws are safe because God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, for He alone has SAVED us.
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life”
The sole condition for receiving eternal salvation from hell is faith (trust) in the Lord Jesus Christ, who died a substitutionary death on the cross for man’s sin and rose from the dead! (John 3:16-18; John 6:47; Acts 16:31).
No act of obedience, preceding or following faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, such as a commitment to obey, sorrow for sin, turning from one’s sin, baptism, or submission to the Lordship of Christ, may be added to, or considered as a part of, faith as a condition for receiving eternal salvation (Rom. 4:5; Gal. 2:26; Titus 3:5).
This saving transaction between God and the sinner is simply the giving and receiving of a free gift (Eph. 2:8,9; John 4:10; Rev. 22:17).
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
hmmm…
I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me, Jesus said.
huh?
We may not agree with the parachute manufacturer, (for example) we may not like the color, texture, or the style of it, but it still is an established fact, that the ‘ripcord’ is the only possible choice to avoid destruction. (I can insist that is just too narrow and I don’t believe it will work. Then I can also be “dead” wrong.)
Dead wrong?
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
hmmm…
Pull it, you fool!
(grin)
Sopy
—
Sopwith:
I don’t understand your question to Wade. It is clear, so clear, what the hope that lies within is with him. Listen to his sermons, read his comments to those of us who comment here. It is sooooooooo clear.
I appears that I am a little protective of Wade, although he does not need it – he can stand on his own, because he is the ONLY baptist minister I have known or heard of that is REAL and preaches truth. He & TWW are the reason I am now in a wonder church family.
Scooter’s Mom,
Thanks for the comment to Sopwith. You are correct, I do not need any defense, but am grateful for somebody (like you) who clearly recognizes where my hope lies by simply listening to me speak. I find Sopwith’s assessment of me unusual because the predominate criticism of me is that I am an antinomian – “without law” – because I proclaim Christ alone as the solution for our problems and nothing else.
Sopwith, maybe if you asked your question more pointedly and clearly without all the curly cues, you might have a better chance of receiving an answer that does not fail you. I have gone back and read your comments and (1). Had a hard time even finding any question you asked of me, and (2). Understanding anything you were saying. In reflection, I didn’t just not understand you, I MISunderstood you.
I am a meat and potatoes type of thinker and writer. I affirm you in the way you write and have no desire for you to change, but the moment you begin to expect a satisfactory answer from me it might be best to begin speaking a langugage I understand.
“For His Cloths…They Drew Lots?
HowDee,
Sopy: “Wartburg readers, When first you don’t succeed…Try, Try, Try, Try, Try again? hahahahaha ”
Sopy: ” Thank you for your latest response. ”
Wade: “I am a meat and potatoes type of thinker and writer.”
Sopy: “I hear your words. What is ‘a meat and potatoes ‘type’ of thinker and writer’, in this context?”
Sopy; “You take of fence where none as given, hmmm…?”
Wade: “In reflection, I didn’t just not understand you, I MISunderstood you.”
Sopy: “Sure. Not a problem.”
Wade “…to begin speaking a langugage I understand.”
Sopy: “Sure. I can do that.”
Wade: .”..maybe if you asked your question more pointedly and clearly… ”
Sopy: “Sure. I can do that.”
Wade: “without all the curly cues,”
Sopy: Ha! Thank you for the humor. I don’t think you received any ‘curly cues’ from me. lol
Wade: “you might have a better chance of receiving an answer that does not fail you.”
Sopy : “Sure.”
Wade: “…predominate criticism”?
Sopy: “Excuse me, I have made no criticism at all; neither inferred or implied in any of my words to you.”
*
The Burleson Maxim: ” You don’t receive what somebody says just because of who says it – you search it out for yourselves to see whether the things said are true according to the Scriptures.”
Burleson’s 2nd Maxim: “…because I proclaim Christ alone as the solution for our problems and nothing else?”
Your getting w-a-r-m-e-r…
-snicker-
Sopy: “I’ll try again…”
Sopy: “In plain language questions… Sure. (you said plain E-n-g-l-i-s-h)”
Sopy: “Wade, why are you here at ‘ The WartBurg Watch?”
Sopy: “Wade, what do you expect to accomplish here at The Wartburg Watch?”
Sopy: “Wade, what have you accomplished here at The Wartburg Watch, since you’ve been here?”
Sopy: “Wade, are you happy with the results; at the level of your effort?”
Sopy: “Wade, with all of the pastoral abuse going on in churches today, why should anyone listen to you, a pastor?”
Sopy: “Wade, what makes you different from the pastors who spiritually abuse their members?”
Sopy: “Wade, why should anyone one step removed from an abusive church situation listen to you?”
Sopy: THE Apostle Paul said that we should be prepared to give a reason or account for the hope that is within us.
Apostle Paul: “…but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame…”
Sopy: “Wade, clearly, where does your hope lie? Why?”
Sopy : “Wade, did you bring the popcorn? (grin) ”
Sopy: “Kirrrrrrrrrrrrrk! Wade, I am one of your greatest fans! But please understand absolutely no Pastor gets a free pass in today’s church climate. I am sure you can understand that. Better a friend test your metal then an enemy, no? –Ever prepared to give a reason for the hope that is within yourself?”
Sopy: “hmmm…”
Sopy: “Christ in us, the hope of glory!”
Sopy: “Yahoooooooooo!”
Sopy: “No offense given, No offense take…”
Sopy: “Wade, if Jesus was to ask you: “Look at what they have done to My church” , how would you respond to Him?”
TTFN
(grin)
Sopy
—
@ Sopwith: Dude, that’s awfully harsh.
Wade’s been gracious toward you, imo.
Wade Burleson wrote:
I don’t think that is the problem as most of us agree that Christ is the solution. It could be, perhaps, you have a different view than free will or ability to obey Christ in sanctification…with the guidance of the HOly Spirit, of course but the Holy Spirit is not forcing us to grow in Holiness. Otherwise why would we have the Driscolls, Schaaps and Mahaney’s out there as pastors? Does God force us to have good fruit?
Scooters mom, we have a tried and true method for those who have been spiritually abused. Read ONLY the Gospels for how ever long it takes (3 years for many) and you know Jesus inside and out. Pray and the Holy spirit will indwell. When you do that, you will spot a wolf in sheeps clothing miles away.
If you notice most (not all, numo) will use Paul to promote the non essentials as essentials. Paul to understand salvation. Paul to understand Justification. Paul to understand gender roles, ESS, Calvism, etc, etc. Even Peter said Paul was hard to understand!
But you cannot go wrong with Jesus. In fact, See Jesus of Nazareth as God. What is God like? See Jesus of Nazareth. IT will change your life. Although, I will tell you that you will have a harder time putting up with all the added stuff.
Anon1
Great advice at 7:40PM Excellent!
@ Muff Potter:
Isn’t it lovely to know that God loves, laughs, and dances with all the different drummers? Suddenly the world is a huge place in which to romp. And everywhere I go, when I stop to listen to yet another drummer, I find a bit more of God, something I’d never noticed before, and it makes me sooooo happy. Whoop!!
Sopy: “Wade, why are you here at ‘ The WartBurg Watch?”
Answer: I was asked to be.
Sopy: “Wade, what do you expect to accomplish here at The Wartburg Watch?”
Nothing.
Sopy: ”Wade, what have you accomplished here at The Wartburg Watch, since you’ve been here?”
Nothing.
Sopy: ”Wade, are you happy with the results; at the level of your effort?”
Yes. When you expect nothing you are not disappointed in anything.
Sopy: ”Wade, with all of the pastoral abuse going on in churches today, why should anyone listen to you, a pastor?”
I am not saying they should.
Sopy: “Wade, what makes you different from the pastors who spiritually abuse their members?”
I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who considers me spiritually abusive.
Sopy: ”Wade, why should anyone one step removed from an abusive church situation listen to you?”
I have never said they should.
Sopy: THE Apostle Paul said that we should be prepared to give a reason or account for the hope that is within us.
I am.
Apostle Paul: “…but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame…”
Amen.
Sopy: “Wade, clearly, where does your hope lie? Why?”
Christ. He is the only One deserving of Hope.
Sopy : “Wade, did you bring the popcorn? (grin) ”
Yes.
Sopy: “Kirrrrrrrrrrrrrk! Wade, I am one of your greatest fans! But please understand absolutely no Pastor gets a free pass in today’s church climate. I am sure you can understand that. Better a friend test your metal then an enemy, no? –Ever prepared to give a reason for the hope that is within yourself?”
I appreciate your Internet friendship.
Sopy: “hmmm…”
Sopy: “Christ in us, the hope of glory!”
Sopy: “Yahoooooooooo!”
Sopy: “No offense given, No offense take…”
Sopy: “Wade, if Jesus was to ask you: “Look at what they have done to My church” , how would you respond to Him?”
I am interested in bringing healing where healing is possible.
@ Patrice: i’m a percussionist, so i love this comment!
“When In Doubt: Ask?”
hmmm…
The Burleson Maxim: ” You don’t receive what somebody says just because of who says it – you search it out for yourselves to see whether the things said are true according to the Scriptures.”
Burleson’s 2nd Maxim: “proclaim Christ alone as the solution for our problems and nothing else.”
Burleson’s 3rd Maxim: “Bring healing where healing is possible.”
Thank you, Wade.
Just think…
If someone would have asked Pastor Charles Joseph Mahaney, “Why should we listen to you” sometime in the distant past, and encouraged others to “Search The Scriptures” and Bring Healing Wherever Possible, as Pastor Wade Burleson has so aptly suggested, history and the lives of the abused there at SGM, may have been quite different, and quite possibly reduced significantly. How I morn that such a simple question was (to my humble knowledge) never pressed.
May this tragic SGM history never be repeated…
(Sadface)
Sopy
—
@ Anon 1:
“The Spiritually Abused School Of Healing.”
Presenting a tried and true –a sure fire method for those who have been spiritually abused, seeking wellness:
1. Read ONLY the Gospels for how ever long it takes (3 years for many, so be patient with yourself, it takes time) and you know Jesus inside and out.
2. Pray (talk with God about everything) and the Holy spirit will indwell. (please keep in mind that God really wants to help you!)
3. When you do that (practicing steps 1&2 above), you will be able spot a wolf in sheep’s clothing (a bad church person or leader) from miles away. Stay away from these people.
4. When you do that (practicing steps 1&2 above), you will also be able to initially spot the possible improper use of Scripture, such as the books of the Bible New Testament that the Apostle Paul wrote.
5. Does the use of Scripture (at that particular church or ministry) encourage you to follow Jesus, to seek God, and to understand and do what He says? Does the use of Scripture encourage you to share what you have learned with others? Does the use of Scripture encourage you to help those less fortunate than yourself? If you don’t see these things being an out-working of some ‘church’ or church ministry, please say a prayer and move on to one that does.
6. Remember The Burleson Maxim: ” You don’t receive what somebody says just because of who says it – you search it out for yourselves to see whether the things said are true according to the Scriptures.”
7. Remember the corollary to Burleson’s 2nd Maxim: Christ alone is the solution to our problems and nothing else, and in any ‘healthy’ environment proclaimed as such.
8. Remember Burleson’s 3rd Maxim: “Bring healing where healing is possible.”
Remember your goal is to get spiritually well soon!
Get well soon!
Blessings!
Sopy
—
@ Scooter’s Mom:
You Said: …he (Pastor Wade) is the ONLY baptist minister I have known or heard of that is REAL and preaches truth. He & TWW are the reason I am now in a wonder church family.”
That is quite a complement!
I am sorry that a hundred readers did not ‘also’ come to his aid.
Did anyone in your hearing ever ask Pastor Mahaney, “Why should we listen to you”?
I have the deepest respect for you; please forgive my possible lack of warmth and sensitivity…
http://www.ftdimg.com/pics/products/F488_330x370.jpg
…yet which would you rather have, Polio, or the vaccine?
(I have seen Polio up close and personal (a relative) and I can assure you, the vaccine is the delectable alternative…)
Religious tyrants will hold sway only so long as the people remain ignorant of the great and wonderful promises contained within the pages of the Scriptures.
Religious tyrants break wind, the Scriptures break ‘Dawn’ !
Don’t forget to pray, –bless you!
TTFN
Sopy
—
Sopwith wrote:
Sopwith, I am lucky if my wife comes to my aid. 🙂 I’m grateful for the kindness of words from Scooter’s Mom, but do not feel sorrow over the fact ‘a hundred others’ have not come to my aid. I don’t even think about it. If by your comment you intend to communicate that very few people believe in what I teach, or very few people consider me a healer of others in my teaching ministry, or that very few people pay attention to anything I say — you have no argument from me! When I speak, or when I teach, I am interested in helping people discover the healing that comes from the full and free grace of God in Christ, but I have no illusions about the numbers of people who are helped or even listen. Have a great day Sopwith!
Wade, I’m glad you stuck with Sopy because it showed respect—which might’ve been half the answer to her question.
“Fruitful Endeavors: Rendering A Splendid Contrast?”
hmmm…
Wade, you said: “If by your comment you intend to communicate that very few people believe in what I teach, or very few people consider me a healer of others in my teaching ministry, or that very few people pay attention to anything I say — you have no argument from me!”
Huh?
“intend to communicate” ?
Quack! Quack!
Naaaaaaaa…
lit’l outa ma pay grade…
-snicker-
However,
…don’t you give it no never matter, gold that is pure, is tried in the fire seven times…
Youze bring da popcorn…
II’ze bring da Ice water!
Would you like lemon with dat?
(grin)
Have a great day yourself, Wade!
Yehaaaaaaaaa!
“Take no part in and have no fellowship with the fruitless deeds and enterprises of darkness, but instead [let your lives be so in contrast as to] expose and reprove and convict them.” -Apostle Paul
TTFN
Sopy
—