Welcome to a Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg
Here Is Our Order of Worship
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Prayer by John Wesley link
Most great and glorious Lord God,
accept my imperfect repentance,
and send your Spirit of adoption into my heart,
that I may again be owned by you, call you Father,
and share in the blessings of your children.
O Lord, take full possession of my heart,
raise there your throne,
and command there as you do in heaven.
Being created by you, let me live for you;
being created for you, let me always act for your glory;
being redeemed by you, let me give to you what is yours;
and let my spirit cling to you alone, for your name's sake.
Deliver me, Lord God, from a slothful mind,
from all lukewarmness,
and all dejection of spirit.
I know these cannot but deaden my love for you;
mercifully free my heart from them,
and give me a lively, zealous, active and cheerful spirit;
that I may vigorously perform whatever you command,
thankfully suffer whatever you choose for me,
and always be ardent to obey in all things your holy love.
O Lord, let us not live to be useless, for Christ's sake.
You are never tired, O Lord, of doing us good;
let us never be weary of doing you service.
But as you have pleasure in the well being of your servants,
let us take pleasure in the service of our Lord,
and abound in your work and in your love and praise evermore.
Forgive them all, O Lord:
our sins of omission and our sins of commission;
the sins of our youth and the sins of our riper years;
the sins of our souls and the sins of our bodies;
our secret and our more open sins;
our sins of ignorance and surprise,
and our more deliberate and presumptuous sins;
the sins we have done to please ourselves,
and the sins we have done to please others;
the sins we know and remember,
and the sins we have forgotten;
the sins we have striven to hide from others
and the sins by which we have offended others;
forgive them, O Lord, forgive them all for his sake,
who died for our sins and rose for our justification,
and now stands at your right hand to make intercession for us,
through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen
A Prayer by John Chrysostom (347–407AD) – early church father link
Almighty God,
who has given us the privilege of making our common requests to You,
and has promised through Your well-beloved Son
that when two or three are gathered together in his name
You will be in the midst of them:
Fulfill now, O Lord, the desires and petitions of Your servants as may be best for us;
granting us in this world a knowledge of Your truth,
and life everlasting in the world to come.
Amen.
Scripture Reading: Hebrews 12:12-13 (NASB Bible Gateway)
Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble, and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
A Prayer of Basil (c. 330–379) link
O Lord, our God, teach us, we pray, to ask rightly for the right blessings.
Steer the vessel of our soul toward your heart,
the tranquil Haven of all storm-tossed souls.
Show us the way we should go.
Renew a willing spirit within us.
Let your Spirit curb our wayward senses,
and guide us to that which is our true good,
to keep your laws,
and in all our works to rejoice in your glorious and gladdening presence.
For yours is the glory and praise from all saints forever and ever.
Amen
Benediction by Susanna Wesley (1669–1742)
Help me, Lord, to remember that religion is not to be confined to the church
or closet nor exercised only in prayer and meditation,
but that everywhere I am in your presence.
So may my every word and action have a moral content.
Amen.
There is a difference between someone who has been trashed by a so-called Christian and that so-called Christian who is broken in genuine repentance. Both people carry the consequences of evil within themselves but only one of them caused the evil. What strength do you have for those who are damaged but not guilty? This sermon spends most of its time on those who glanced away, who fell, or who were feeble all along, but as far as I can tell from this Wartburg site, it is the wounded innocent you are serving.
From last week’s service, “Mercy Me” sang:
“And I know there’ll be days
When this life brings me pain
But if that’s what it takes to praise You
Jesus, bring the rain.”
Accompanying that sentiment came this from the pastor today: “And we must learn that, as we run the race of the Christian life, everything that comes our way is designed by God for our ultimate good.”
What kind of god do you all worship? The God I know doesn’t trash His/Her creations so that they’ll come closer to Him/Her. The God I know doesn’t give children pastor-fathers who sexually/physically/mentally abuse them for their ultimate good (and mine is definitely not the worst story out there).
There is no evil in God. How do you not know that? The greatness of God is that someday, when all falls out, He/She will turn the experience of that evil into something we can use. But to confuse evil for good and to imply it is in/from God–that is a travesty!
Says the pastor, “And no matter how painful, no matter how hard, no matter how much time it takes, we should stop and we should help.” Oh, very nice of you, I’m sure, but please don’t wear yourself out.
Patrice,
Evil is not good, nor is good evil. God is able, however, to take the most horrific evil that comes our way (evil not from Him or caused by Him) and turn it around for our good. The ultimate good may not be seen, felt or even understand by us until we reach heaven (that is why we live by faith), but until then, I will do my part to be very conscientious and help anyone who has been crippled or lamed by others in the journey of faith. I do believe I am called to pay attention to those who are hurting, help them in any way I can, and encourage them by my words and actions. I am sincere in this. I apologize if my words sound trite.
They worship a cruel, abusive, evil god who is ultimately a partner in crime, no matter how they insist otherwise.
Oasis
Do you really believe that this is what we believe?
Dee, no, definitely not. Maybe I should have clarified, so sorry! By “we” and “they” I mean those whose beliefs fall into the category described by Patrice:
Oasis,
Your comment startled me. So glad you clarified.
Patrice,
I believe you have misunderstood Wade’s teaching. God is not the author of evil, but ALL things work together for good to those who love God. (Romans 8:28)
There is a lot of confusion because the message and explanations seem to contradict themselves.
“And we must learn that, as we run the race of the Christian life, everything that comes our way is designed by God for our ultimate good.”
Rape? Molestation of children? These things are not designed by God to come our way but are consequences of living in a fallen world. Satan roams and humans choose to hurt others. So saying the above and then saying God does not cause evil yet what comes our way is designed by God for our ultimate good, is confusing.
I personally think, and this is just my opinion, but the Calvinist paradigm does not work in practical application. The Sovereign God is not sending rape so that it can work out for good. We can bring good out of a rape but we must recognize it is an evil committed by evil humans directed by satan who roams this earth to devour us. I believe in free will so see these sorts of things very differently.
That really bothers me. “Designed” by God? Same as “orchestrated”? Am I to believe that God was nodding at my abusers as they destroyed me? He must have said to them, “This is about more than your free will. You have my blessing. Abuse her until she passes out. This is technically bad, but it’s also good that this is happening.” Since God claims the evil as part of his “plan,” not afterward, but before and/or while it happens? How does that not make him a partner in crime?
This means that on some level, God wanted it to happen. This makes God an abuser. An abuser who needlessly tortures his people because he’s unwilling or unable to “teach” them or to bring good into the world apart from horrible tragedy. If this is true, even I can walk away…
Deb, sorry to confuse. I’m not great at this particular form of communication sometimes.
Another way to look at this would be to say that God started the same storm that Jesus rebuked. Did God cause the storm so Jesus could rebuke it? I think not. God is not controlling every molecule. We still have to fight the principality of this world to bring good out of his evil.
Anon 1, if only you knew how much your comments helped me tonight… You and I are definitely on the same page.
Once again, my possessed hand insisted on clicking on a dangerous (for me) thread, even though I knew that because of my particular beliefs on the subject matter, and the emotions connected with them, it was a very bad idea…oops…must go back to the shadows now.
@ Anon 1:
That is an excellent point. Follow through with it from the viewpoint of the disciples. Did God cause the storm? No. Did God orchestrate or design the storm for the disciples good, particularly in terms of their faith? Yes. The definition is in the term “orchestrate.” Orchestrate means “to conduct or control” similar to the way a conductor conducts or controls an orchestra. He (the conductor) does not PLAY THE NOTES, but He carefully orchestrates when and where the notes can be played, and if one note is played contrary to his design, he steps in to stop it. Is God powerful enough to take what is evil, painful, or scary and turn it around for good for those He loves? Yes (as Deb pointed out in Romans 8:28). If evil is not part of His ultimate plan can He stop it? Yes. Jesus rebuked the storm, which seems to me to indicate He is in control of the storm.
Now listen to these verses from Isaiah 45:
I am the Lord, and there is no other. (7) I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.
(8)“Open up, O heavens, and pour out your righteousness. Let the earth open wide
so salvation and righteousness can sprout up together. I, the Lord, created them.
(9) “What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,
‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’
Does the pot exclaim, ‘How clumsy can you be?’
(10) How terrible it would be if a newborn baby said to its father, ‘Why was I born?’ or if it said to its mother, ‘Why did you make me this way?’”
(11) This is what the Lord says—the Holy One of Israel and your Creator: “Do you question what I do for my children? Do you give me orders about the work of my hands?
(12) I am the one who made the earth and created people to live on it. With my hands I stretched out the heavens. All the stars are at my command.
(13) I will raise up Cyrus to fulfill my righteous purpose, and I will guide his actions!
The word “guide” in verse 13 is used by God to describe His orchestration, direction and control over Cyrus. God DID NOT DO WHAT CYRUS DID, nor can the evil performed by this first king of the Persian empire be attributed to God – yet God designed to use Cyrus for the good of His people Israel.
This is precisely what I am attempting to say in my message, however poorly or inadequately I say it. I realize that many who hear me filter words through years of abuse, pain and torment from the hands of evil people, even those who claim to be “Christians.” God will hold the evil person accountable. God will punish the wicked. This is the reason there is an ultimate judgment.
But God is not weak. He is not unable to control the wicked. In His unconditional love for His children, He has the power to turn every heartache and pain into ultimate good. How He does this is often a mystery, but it never negates the fact that He does.
So, back to the original point. Did God cause the storm in order that Jesus could rebuke it? No. Was God always in control of the storm? Yes. Was the storm somehow used by God to strengthen the disciples faith? Yes. So, God designs all things in our lives for our ultimate good and His ultimate glory.
For those who cannot accept this message, I completely understand. To be a child of God does not require an adherence that God is in control of all things. To be a follower of Jesus Christ does not mean you have to accept Isaiah 45 or Romans 8:28 or Genesis 50 or the countless other numbers of Scripture that represent God as all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving. If it is helpful to believe something different, then by all means, feel free to disagree!
Ultimately, my job is to represent the truth of Scripture with compassion, understanding and love. I desire to be full of grace and truth. The grace comes first. Sometimes I speak through my filter and it clashes with someone else’s filter. I’m sorry. When I say God designs all things for good, I mean He is NOT the author of evil, but He definitely is aware of evil, is in control of evil (the storm), and can orchestrate evil for His child’s good.
Again, thanks everyone for your excellent comments!
@ Oasis:
Oasis,
Your comment is heartwrenching. When our four kids were growing up, we read to them Fox’s book of Martyrs at the breakfast table. There were times my eyes were filled with tears as we read about God’s people being raped, tortured, burned at the stake, and tormented. Often eyes were gouged out, people were stripped naked and paraded in the city’s square, and some had their skin torn from their bones. Mothers had their children snatched from their arms and pierced through with a sword. Fathers were decapitated in front of children. Entire families were separated and sold into slavery. Reading of the lives of Christians who have been abused in such a manner definitely made an impression on my children who were sitting in a warm kitchen, around a table filled with food.
Your abuse is painful. It makes the same kind of impression on me. My eyes fill with tears. God is not your abuser. Evil men are. God is not the author of the evil perpetrated agains you. Evil men are. They will answer to Him. Where, then, is God? The same place He was during those times of abuse in Fox’s Book of Martyrs. He comforts His children who have been afflicted, He orchestrates good from the affliction (you will not believe the changes for good that occurred in my kids who read the stories of those abused), and He will ultimately bring justice to an evil situation. Please know, were you to tell me your story, I would sit and listen and say nothing. There would also be tears in my eyes for you. I also would know because of my experiences, you are not alone and you serve a big God who can and will turn evil into good.
To All:
I have a very full day. I will be unable to respond to comments or questions until late tonight. Feel free to comment, disagree, and be angry with what you hear or read! If our faith in God does not grant room for people to disagree, then our faith is too small. Also, please know that I realize I could be wrong in my interpretation of Scripture. God’s word is infallible, I am not.
“For those who cannot accept this message, I completely understand. To be a child of God does not require an adherence that God is in control of all things. To be a follower of Jesus Christ does not mean you have to accept Isaiah 45 or Romans 8:28 or Genesis 50 or the countless other numbers of Scripture that represent God as all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving. If it is helpful to believe something different, then by all means, feel free to disagree!”
I accept all those verses. I just do not read them with the Reformed filter. I believe God is all powerful and all loving. I believe there was free will for his created beings. I do not believe those things dimish God in any way. It does not help to argue scripture verses because our filters are very different.
In Hebrews, the author is talking to those who are starting to be persecuted for their belief in Christ. Chap 12:
3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
The persecution was not so bad as to shed blood but bad enough they were turning away. That is totally different situation when it comes to discipline than those who have been abused for no reason but evil.
I would also recommend Martyrs Mirror. It includes the stories of the Reformed movement persecuting the Ana Baptists. Foxes does not include those.
Wade, I know you have good intentions and compassion–I see it in your blog. I said rather stoutly that God doesn’t contain both good and bad and you agree. I say that, yes, God will bring meaning out of it, and you agree with that too. Where we fundamentally disagree is that experiences of hell-on-earth is for our ultimate good. They are not.
Let me put it succinctly. Father slaps son across the face. Father says, “This hurts me more than it hurts you.” Father punches son in face so that he flies across the room, hits the wall, and crumbles onto the floor. “It is for your own good,” says the father. “You will thank me some day,” he says, peering into his son’s eyes. There is nothing of God in this father.
In my opinion, the problem lies at the center of the Calvinist doctrines about the nature of God. God is omnipresent and omniscient but those terms have been defined by very small creatures within time/space constraints. There is no way we can understand it, but Calvinists try to reconcile it by saying that God allows evil to happen because it is what we need. It ties into the doctrines of total depravity and predestination, and there is no way to believe these things without also: requiring God to have a vengeful character (thus some aspect of evil), and to dismiss the capacity of God to create genuinely independent creatures.
The lesson of Job wasn’t that God allows awful things and Job was wrong to complain. The truth was that God was so much more complex than Job that it was silly to think that he could understand what God was up to. God gave Job’s complaints careful attention (that’s how much He/She cared for such a small creature!), and by showing His/Her majesty, re-assured Job that He/She was all-good as well as all-powerful. We can truly rely on God to be all love and to make meaning out of the travesties in our earthly experiences. The lesson (via Job’s friends) is that never ever does God condone rampant evil for our own good, because of our own sin, or because we dare complain.
Perhaps God is sooo immensely great that He/She chooses not to run the show. A truly great teacher, a truly great artist, is one who works with what is, who responds to what happens, who doesn’t bore himself by controlling stuff top to bottom. The assumption that omniscience and omnipresence means complete control reflects more on one’s ideas of perfection than on the nature of God. And by making that assumption, an ugly insinuation creeps in, that God uses evil for our own good. After all, He/She *must do so* because He/She is in total control and look how awful this world sometimes is. It is logical.
I don’t suppose there is a lot of difference between us, really, because you wrote beautifully to Oasis. But then, again, perhaps there is, because you wrote: “To be a follower of Jesus Christ does not mean you have to accept Isaiah 45 or Romans 8:28 or Genesis 50 or the countless other numbers of Scripture that represent God as all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving. If it is helpful to believe something different, then by all means, feel free to disagree!” Translation: “Feel free to disagree with God and me, if it makes you feel better.” But that is disingenuous. We are talking about the nature of God and the meaning of torn-up lives. It is worth any number of arguments, particularly because there is no good answer this side of the divide. No need to line up all your guns. I am unarmed and would much prefer to disarm you.
I am sorry the above comment was so long.
Anon 1, yes! Particularly, “It does not help to argue scriptures because our filters are very different.” Moreover, I think it is a mistake to confuse God with scripture. It is God who is truthful and complete in love. Insomuch as scripture reveals God, it reflects His/Her infallibility. The Bible itself is a physical compendium of stories, letters, laws, poetry, prophesies written over a period of human history. Therefore, it is vulnerable to filters of all kinds.
I am grateful for a place we can discuss these differences. On most blogs a bunch of folks will immediately accuse any deviation from that filter as Open Theism which they claim is heretical.
I once heard NT Wright (I enjoy his scholarly approach but don’t agree with everything) say that one does not put poetry into a computer program and get out a meaning. And I thought, how true! And we could include idioms, literary devices, etc.Not to mention the fact we fail to read the OT in view of the serious paganism that was prevelant.
One of the problems with Calvinism is that I think it leaves Lucifer’s function and earthly power out of the equation. They present it as if he has no power at all on earth because that would dimish their idea of God’s Sovereignty. The position always goes back to “do you believe God is Sovereign in all things”? As if that makes any tension we see in scripture a moot point.
There is an example in Daniel 10 that is interesting in light of this discussion when Daniel is having a vision:
12 Then he continued, “Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. 13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia. 14 Now I have come to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future, for the vision concerns a time yet to come.”
Why would an all powerful God allow this messenger to be detained for 21 days by evil?
Because He is not controlling every molecule.
In an effort to promote that concept with their definition, they leave no room for the free will of the created beings.
I am no pentecostal but there is spiritual warfare and we must fight it. I truly believe Augustine did much more harm to Christianity than people realize when he infused his pagan beliefs that all material world is evil and only the spiritual is good. Luther was an Augustinian monk and Calvin systematized it. It becomes this idea that we wait on God to either fix everything or that the evil was sent for our own good. There is a reason we build storm shelters and safer buildings. There is a reason we should not wait for clear evidence before we seek to protect a child we think might be in danger. We must part ourselves in harms way if necessary. We are to ‘be’ the kingdom now.
Patrice,
“Let me put it succinctly. Father slaps son across the face. Father says, “This hurts me more than it hurts you.” Father punches son in face so that he flies across the room, hits the wall, and crumbles onto the floor. “It is for your own good,” says the father. “You will thank me some day,” he says, peering into his son’s eyes. There is nothing of God in this father.”
I agree. The fact that you think I am saying God is punching and hitting His kids is another indication that I am not communicating well.
You also translate my words to say: “Feel free to disagree with God and me, if it makes you feel better.” And then you say, “this is disingenuous.” Of course I am able to be disingenous, but that goes to something internal and only known by God. I believe that you have misunderstood me again. I said I am fallible, and God is not. He brings healing through His word. I am not saying God is on my side. I am saying I am attempting to faithfully represent God as He reveals Himself in Scripture and that I could be wrong. I mean that genuinely. I do not believe I am, but I could be.
So… that’s why I have no problems with anyone disagreeing! Ultimately, the standard is the Scriptures, and our interpretations are not infallible. I do believe that God causes all things to work together for good for those who are called according to His purpose.
Anon 1,
“I am grateful for a place we can discuss these differences. On most blogs a bunch of folks will immediately accuse any deviation from that filter as Open Theism which they claim is heretical.”
A hearty Amen! Greg Boyd, who holds to Open Theism, is a wonderful teacher of God’s Word and an orthodox brother in Christ. We may differ in our view of God’s sovereignty, but it will never hinder my love and appreciation for Greg.
Or Patrice, or you, or anyone else who participates at E-Church. It’s a safe place.
” The Bible itself is a physical compendium of stories, letters, laws, poetry, prophesies written over a period of human history. Therefore, it is vulnerable to filters of all kinds.” Patience
The problem is that when you state the above quoted section, the Bible is open to fallibility (filters of man). This is something which many people cannot fathom. If people feel that scripture is infallible, then they have put it (scripture) on the same level as God. And, then, why would Jesus promise the Holy Spirit to us, if we were to have scripture only? Shouldn’t we just follow scripture woodenly and we would be living a life that pleases God? Of course, I see all kinds of problems taking this route.
Please don’t misunderstand me, I do believe scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching and Godly living. I don’t believe it is equal to the work of the Holy Spirit in one’s life, because the scripture is not God. I do believe that the guiding of the Holy Spirit will be confirmed by scripture. Satan, himself, tried to use a wooden interpretation of scripture against Jesus. It didn’t go over well. The Pharisees tried the same approach. Again, a fail. At the same time, Jesus did use scripture to confirm who he was. He didn’t say that scripture would take the place of knowing him or His Spirit residing in believers and being their helper. It just appears to me that man has elevated scripture beyond God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
I hope this makes sense as I was in a bit of a hurry. It might offend some as well.
Wade, it is so refreshing to hear a pastor say that his interpretation of scripture is not infallible. Thank you.
Wade,
Your graciousness is so appreciated! Thank you for caring for those in this virtual community.
@ Anon 1:
“Open Theism” Had to Wikipedia it. A label for every proposal! Hah!
It is a peculiar idea in many parts of Christianity that there is only one accurate way to understand God, as if He/She isn’t so huge and multi-dimensional that all of our divergent personalities/ideas put together wouldn’t come close to seeing half of what He/She is.
As if “narrow is the path” means that making the exact right conclusions will get you to God, rather than that the path of love and truth is winding and easily strayed from. As if “making your path straight” means that it is rigid and unbending and, like a line of freeway through Kansas, broken only by mirage a hundred miles ahead, rather than understanding that the simplicity is walking with God.
As if we need to defend God from all the slings and arrows of fortune and heresy, because He/She can’t reveal Him/Herself without our help.
So you think that Calvinism has tended to transfer Lucifer along with all the fallen spirits over to the human soul and then labeled it “depravity”? That might be why I feel a familiar dreary twinge when reading Jack London or social Darwinists. (Raised Calvinist) It’s as much about that roaring lion prowling over the earth, looking for someone to devour as it is about soul-failure. Interesting. I’ll think about it–thanks.
I am not Pentecostal either, whatever that might actually mean. I just love God and am grateful that He/She is everywhere in this world, telling the story of glory and grace, so that I can walk along with Him/Her through the moments of my day. How could we possibly think that there is a separation between the spiritual and the physical? ☺ If we understand the nature of God, we sense His/Her love for every single art piece He/She made. Nowhere is there revulsion. It seems that Augustine had a great deal of fear and it echoed in many hearts over time.
I also agree that there’s no essential split between this life and the next. It’s all God’s kingdom and all one story. Only a river to cross on the terrain, and on the other side, a renewed earth and our journey just beginning its second stage.
Very nice to meet you.
Ok, Wade. I haven’t been able to enter back into the Christian community for decades. Every time I’ve attempted, people tried to force my experiences back into a small brown doctrine bottle, and to cork it with platitudes and sweet-nothings. Yet my experiences are also a truth, and not rare. It is a hard truth to hear, although not as hard to hear as to bear. It is also an important truth. Ignoring it allows the church to become self-satisfied and dangerously naïve, and it is done at our expense, who are left alone and faintly besmirched.
I agree with the “all things work together” passage when it is understood thusly: God will make meaning out of all that occurs here on earth. My experience with a Christian Reformed pastor-father who sexually/mentally/physically abused my sibs and me will be, somehow, used for something constructive someday. The additional unwanted lessons about evil that I had to learn via the bland and intractable denial of the church community towards me will be useful for some project God has in mind. And the same can be said for bearing permanent damage, such that I have been able to do little of what I was made to do. Likely it also can be said for my sibs who will have nothing to do with God. God has mercy. God alone knows the heart. God will grace it all with purpose. This I say with faith.
Most destructive to the human soul is the conviction of meaningless suffering. It is the direct route to suicide. But also deeply damaging is the idea that destruction comes through (even though not from) God’s guiding hand, and that it is supposed to make us feel loved. It is vital for the soul to keep evil separate, as far as the east is from the west, as does God. There is no other way to survive spiritually intact, when one goes through experiences such as those seen on this site.
I’d bet you largely agree.
Lastly, I didn’t say you were disingenuous. You don’t seem that way to me. I only said that what you wrote was. I felt it as such. Glad to be wrong.
Thanks for your welcome, even though I have been croaking and scattering my dirty feathers across the comment section like a shabby old crow 🙂
Patrice,
I do agree. One of these days I would like to meet you. We have much more in common than you might realize. And, most importantly, your comments are from from “dirty feathers.” They are real, gritty, honest, raw and needed.
I admire you for hanging on to the assembly of Christ, though you have reason to give up. Your life, testimony and teaching are powerful and can bring healing to many. Thank you for your comments and your willingness to challenge what you hear! Keep on!
Patrice, I had not even taken the time to look up Open Theism, you are way ahead of me. All I know is that it is thrown out a lot on many Reformed blogs for what I understand is a belief in free will. So I started wondering if a belief in Free Will was automatically thought of as Open Theism. But then I had a YRR here tell me I was a Pelagian and that was heretical. :o)
“So you think that Calvinism has tended to transfer Lucifer along with all the fallen spirits over to the human soul and then labeled it “depravity”? That might be why I feel a familiar dreary twinge when reading Jack London or social Darwinists. (Raised Calvinist) It’s as much about that roaring lion prowling over the earth, looking for someone to devour as it is about soul-failure. Interesting. I’ll think about it–thanks.”
No, that is not really what I was talking about. I think Calvinism rarely talks about Satan’s role or power on earth. If mentioned many tend to jump immediately that even mentioning it means we think God has no power over Satan. And I don’t believe that for one moment. I was thinking more along the line of the storm Jesus rebuked. Did that storm come from God or the principalities of this world because it is fallen?
So there is the evil that roams this earth in the form of principalities and then there is human evil because humans choose to do evil. To me, sin is more like a blood sucking tick that attaches itself to us. Not some sin juice we floated around in our mothers womb. I have met one too many professing believer (many in full time ministry) who practice sin as a lifestyle not to believe that they have a choice in the matter. They know what they are doing. They just redefine sin to make it fit their agenda.
Wade, I have heard some of Greg Boyd sermons and one of them was on evil which I agreed with. A few other things I did not agree with but have not listened to him enough to ascertain why. I do know that Piper pretty much pronounced him a heretic years ago. Which, when I found out, made me want to listen to him and pretty much acts like an endorsement to me. The same for NT Wright. :o)
I did read that Boyd is working on a book about the violence in the OT.
“Most destructive to the human soul is the conviction of meaningless suffering. It is the direct route to suicide. But also deeply damaging is the idea that destruction comes through (even though not from) God’s guiding hand, and that it is supposed to make us feel loved. It is vital for the soul to keep evil separate, as far as the east is from the west, as does God. There is no other way to survive spiritually intact, when one goes through experiences such as those seen on this site.”
Amen!
Anon,
“To me, sin is more like a blood sucking tick that attaches itself to us.”
That’s pretty darn profound anonymous.
I just wanted to chime in & say thanks to all for the discussion, this whole question of the nature of God’s relationship to evil (& the related one of what does it mean to call God good) are very very pressing questions to me also. This is not because of sexual abuse in my case, but of feeling/being really abandoned by God during my Mother’s death a few years ago, an extremely traumatic thing. These questions have me out of church right now. Last sermon I was in got very Calvinistic & I had to get up & leave.
So I lurk a bit at the Sunday Services, & thought this was a great & very profitable discussion on this topic. Anon & Patrice, I tip my hat to your learning & am richer for your comments. Oasis, my heart bleeds for you all & thanks for sticking your neck out & being properly honest. Thanks Wade for acknowledging Boyd as a brother & not letting yourself be boxed in.
I need my hands held up intermittently right now. But, I find it hard that many will “go the distance” in holding them up. I believe I am healing and obviously we all will need healing all of our lives. But, we give up on one another too easily.
Deb, I LOVED the music! I had to play the first two a couple of times and just soak. Great day “at” church for me! 😉
As always, thanks for putting this together.
Open Theism is one term for a belief that the future is not entirely predetermined and that by prayer we can ask and God may intervene, effectively causing a change. Jesus taught us to pray that God’s will be done on earth as in heaven, suggesting that not all that happens on earth is God’s will. And surely the evil that happens is not God’s will. Jesus also gave us the parable of the woman who importunes ceaselessly to the magistrate and that eventually he will accommodate her request, also suggesting that earnest prayer is effective in changing circumstances.
So, if you believe that prayer actually works, you are an open theist. And if you believe that everything is predetermined, then why pray?
What becomes of all the loss
And all the broken dreams
Existing one inside a world
Which one so seemed
A place where God was realized
And everyone agreed
Transparency and Truth were
The King and Queen
But then we discovered it was a diabolical machine.
Take all our tears and fears
Our broken hearts and pleas
Transform them into beauty
In your majestic majesty
Restore our souls, we pray
The wounds from that regime
Grant us joy and peace
And relieve our suffering
@ Anon 1:
I see. I’m trying to remember what I was taught about Satan. We were taught that he and cohorts were there, but theory was left relatively undeveloped since the focus was, as you say “sin juice we floated around in our mothers womb” lol.
Classic American Calvinism tends to the intellectual, good at logic and analysis but queasy about:
“…ghoulies and ghosties
And long-leggedy beasties
And things that go bump in the night.
Good Lord deliver us! ”
To many, the idea of evil spirits running rampant feels primitive and faery-tale-like, the psychological projections of an uneducated unsophisticated mind. They slip more easily into the dark internal regions of Freud, especially considering the sexual component, yah. This has also been true of the general intellectual American mind, the one “out there” or rather “everywhere but in the confines of the church” although it was succeeded by the equally abysmal Social Darwinist model and now is, at its forward edges, again discussing (desperately) the idea of ethics.
If Christians took their heads out of their doctrinal holes (sorry couldn’t resist), they might actually be useful right now. But instead they are sunk in the same corrupt harsh and secretive authoritarian structures that run their nation. I see it as a sparkly example of prevailing regional principalities and powers of darkness.
When one can’t absorb the chaotic willy-nilly characteristics that are part/parcel of this universe, I can see that it might be difficult to recognize that God could still be managing the show very well, thank you, and in fact, may be even deeply fascinated by the unexpected paths that His/Her astonishing artpiece takes even while He’s got the whole world in His hands. That’s sad, isn’t it, because that is where all the fun is.
So, right, this is not to say that our hearts aren’t able to deceive both ourselves and each other, and in rather florid fashion, too. Even in small quiet ways, I am sometimes made breathless by how my choice, moved a fraction of an inch off center, can slip from love and accuracy into selfishness and fear. Ugh.
I’ve read bits and pieces of NT Wright, and liked him, but will now order some books. Do you have any that you particularly recommend?
@ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:
I can tell you fairly confidently that the Calvinist would say that of course you pray–it is what God wants you to do and you want to do what He wants, and it has therefore already been included in the predetermination.
You can’t defeat it by tripping it up. It is logical and everything is explained. In the end, one can only say, I do not start from that basis.
@ Wade Burleson:
I can say unequivocally that yours are the kindest words that any pastor has said to me. I am in Detroit. If you ever come through, you are welcome at my house. That’s how much of a pushover I am 🙂
Just a thought: After many years in charismatic/evangelical churches that overemphasized the demonic (and in fact often confused physical and psychological illnesses with demonic activity), I find myself highly skeptical when the issue of Satan, demons, etc. is raised.
That is because I have seen it abused VERY badly.
Also because I honestly think it can be easier for us to blame some kind of other force for bad things that humans think up all on their own.
(Please keep in mind that I do not accept Augustine’s ideas re. “original sin,” although I do think he was very good on some other points – and, again, bad on things besides original sin. He was human… like the rest of us, and so, fallible and imperfect.)
Tammy,
Glad you enjoyed the music. It’s hard to gauge whether participants like the song selections, but we try to have some diversity.
Next Sunday is St. Patrick’s Day, and I have already added some Irish tunes. I hope they will be uplifting.
@ numo: Another point worthy of consideration: in Judaism, there is certainly the belief that people can and do sin – but NOT any belief in “original sin.”
And very little emphasis on the demonic; certain of the Hasidic groups (and some others) excepted.
I have never seen anyone who was Jewish attribute the concentration camps and Hitler’s “final solution” to the devil – rather, to human wrongs and wrongful impulses.
Worth thinking about, I believe…
“I’ve read bits and pieces of NT Wright, and liked him, but will now order some books. Do you have any that you particularly recommend?”
I find him easier to listen to than read. Before you buy any books, go to youtube and check out some of his talks. It amuses me that some will say he is a Calvinist but others say he is not. Some say he is a liberal and others say he is too conservative. :o) Mostly, he is a NT scholar.
Here is an official page with lots of links….if you scroll down there are vid/audio. The first listing are some talks he gave on Finding and Following the True Jesus at the CS Lewis foundation
http://ntwrightpage.com/
“That is because I have seen it abused VERY badly.
Also because I honestly think it can be easier for us to blame some kind of other force for bad things that humans think up all on their own.
”
I thought I touched on that but probably not profoundly enough for you. I am not sure we can blame Tsunami’s on any humans. That was my focus about one of the evils of this fallen world.
“I can say unequivocally that yours are the kindest words that any pastor has said to me”
This is very telling of what most who call themselves pastors are like. It makes me angry. The “pastors” I have been around were fake, mean and self-centered jerks. There is no real compassion or concern for others. Yes, these people do leave an imprint on others. Not that they care, of course…
“So, if you believe that prayer actually works, you are an open theist”
Oh dear. That means I am a heretic! :o)
@ numo: I wonder… I have seen ADD, anorexia and bulimia, tobacco smoking (more specifically, nicotine addiction), homosexuality, depression, anxiety – even alarm clocks ringing in the middle of the night – blamed on demonic activity…
… by people who were MORE than well-educated enough to know better. (Even myself, for some of these things, because so many people “in authority” kept saying it that I started to believe it, though not as fully as they might have liked.)
When one has been immersed in a church culture where such superstition is mistaken for theology – and where people end up using Bible verses and the name of Jesus as charms/amulets – it’s kind of hard *not* to be alarmed when folks (lots of folks; not necessarily anyone who posts here *at all*) start talking about things like the “prince of Persia.” (Whatever that means; I’m taking the 5th on that, partly because I don’t know that it means *anything* that we would believe in at this point in history.)
Even some NT books have some very odd citations – like Jude, where the Book of Enoch – which is something akin to 1st-c. sci-fi – is cited. Even Paul seems to have believed in some parts of the Book of Enoch – which means that he was very much a man of his time.)
@ numo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Spirit
I have heard FAR more about this – from people who believe it and promote it as normative – for 20 lifetimes (supposing such a thing as 20 lifetimes exists).
At any rate, I hope that helps clarify what I was trying to say.
Numo, Seriously? That is what you thought I was saying? What a leap!
Numo, what do you think Eph 6:12 is referring to? Just curious. Just because I think it means there IS a Satan does not mean I believe any of the other things you have stated and I think it is poisoning the well to bring such bizarre teachings into the convo when I cannot see anything that would begin to map to that sort of thing said here.
Please direct me to one thing I have said in any comment you think maps to any of the experiences you have had or the teaching on the things you have mentioned.
@ Anon 1: No, I’m saying that that IS what a lot of OTHER people are saying – and have been saying for several decades.
Red flags go up for me whenever someone takes that “prince of Persia” reference and puts it together with the devil.
funny how Jesus said “Now is the prince of this world cast out”… (Again, I am not saying that anyone here is talking like they’re a character in one of Frank Perretti’s books – however, a lot of people believe that Perretti’s books contain literal truth about spiritual things. Exceedingly literal.)
anyone who hasn’t spent time around charismatic 3d Wave types might think that the beliefs I’ve mentioned are on the far fringes of xtianity, but they have become pretty well accepted in some surprising places.
@ Anon 1:
Now is the prince of this world cast out, yes?
Patrice
I am so glad that you see Wade and Deb and I do. He truly cares.@ Patrice:
“Red flags go up for me whenever someone takes that “prince of Persia” reference and puts it together with the devil.”
Did you not notice my take away from that passage:
“Why would an all powerful God allow this messenger to be detained for 21 days by evil?”
Scholars are split on that one.
“Now is the prince of this world cast out, yes?”
I have NO idea what you are asking me. Daniel was having a “vision”. My take away was the 21 days spent fighting evil…and God controlling every molecule thinking.
If you are asking me if all evil/Satan has been cast out of the world what do you do with Eph6 I mentioned above? Or 1 Peter 5?
Sheesh! Now you have me declaring territorial demonic spirits because I mention Daniel 10. What a way to end a great convo thread. I might as well go back to being called a heretic by the Calvinists!
See ya later
Anon1
I will slap the next person who calls me Pelagian. It is their way for saying they are saved and I am not.@ Anon 1:
@ numo:
I’ve not been the recipient of that kind of belief system. How creepy and unstable it makes the world, filled with boogey-men and all evil their fault! Kind of easy, too, in a way, because everything is a result of an evil spirit and when “cast out”, voila, hands clean. And when not “cast out”, it’s your fault, so rinse and repeat ad nauseum.
Moral of the story, I suppose, is that we are all very silly for taking on one part of an issue and then making the whole world (of evil, in this case) about that one side, on and on until we collapse from sheer nonsense. Any which way.
There is something though, when one finds a common bit of rottenness running end to end through a culture. It is usually called a “zeitgeist”, even by academics at ivy-league schools. It is German for “spirit of the age”, nothing at all to do with Wagner et al but yet getting at something that breathes through the ideas and behaviors of a particular group of people that somehow produces a bad set of results. It could be just a conglomeration of bad attitudes, economic pressures, and the amount of carbon dioxide in the air, I don’t know, but it’s something and it can be nasty.
Maybe, given your past experience, it’s best to let that side go altogether. You’ve done that, time for the other. I mean, no use adding bells and whistles to evil, right? It’s nasty enough just as it is.
Peretti is merely a writer of fairy-tales, and not a very good one, either. The church needs art education!
I have never heard of 3d wave types. I will enjoy looking it up.
@ Anon 1: Thanks very much!
@ Patrice: Great points!
The “strategic-level spiritual warfare” types (many of who are Third Wave aka New Apostolic Reformation proponents) have built a whole doctrine of “territorial spirits” based on the “prince of Persia” mentioned in Daniel + their perceptions of references to Satan and demons in the NT. I have a feeling that what Jesus was trying to say was not at all what they’ve taken away from it – either by attributing far too much power to the devil, or else by using “the devil made me do it” as an excuse (literally) or both at the same time.
I have been away from it for a little over 10 years, yet there’s still a part of me that will – unconsciously, til I stop it – revert to some of those ways of believing when under intense stress. Habits can be unlearned, but at times, they still die hard.
Plus, i do think that everyone – even professed atheists – looks for meaning and ways to explain that which we cannot explain, be it strange noises in the night, what happens to at death, why suffering exists (and “Why is it happening to me?”) and anything/everything else that we just can’t get our heads around.
I guess it’s like those inscriptions on some very old maps: “here be dragons.” 🙂
anon 1 – I am NOT accusing you of anything, nor claiming that *you* are making certain assumptions.
I very clearly said that OTHER people – lots of them – are swayed by that kind of thinking (or is it not thinking?)
So can we please just let this drop? It is NOT about you; only about what the churches I used to attend push as supposedly sound doctrine. Their numbers, sadly, are growing.
56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC wrote:
Sadly, hyper-Calvinists that I know have left off praying for anything but The End.
@ numo:
I looked around a bit and saw that 3d wave is the latest edition of the signs and wonders movement. I met a couple a few years back who were involved in it. I had them over and they prayed throughout my house, casting out demons, speaking in tongues, inviting the Holy Spirit even into my closets. I found it curious and rather touching. But they were also deeply weird, lying on their stomachs on the floor for hours, arms flung out, waiting for God to speak to them, to receive “words”. Some of those “words” couldn’t have possibly been from God, being banal and goofy. Not that God doesn’t have His/Her goofy side, but banal? Nah
When I was still in the severe throes of PTSD, I went to a healing prayer room they recommended. Four women stood around me. Then one of them took it upon herself to berate me for not trusting God enough and she said things that were deeply and accurately cruel, things I’d never told her and that weren’t at all obvious. It was streaming out of her during the time that we were supposed to be talking with God. I was stunned! I shook off the cooties as I exited, and was upset until I realized that if some kind of evil was going out of its way to try to hurt me, I was obviously somewhere right, so whatever.
It also made me realize that it was quite dangerous to bounce between the plain ridiculous and naively opening up to whatever might be tromping by from the invisible world. Proverbial fools!
But evil cannot ever take God away from us. The beginning and the end of it is to be with God. We can tell where God is by the sense of being fully known and loved. From that safe place, we can more easily see what does and doesn’t need explaining in this wild wooly world.
I wish you the best in continuing to beat back the ancient lies inside of you. I have my own. Nasty old things. Good night.
Patrice–
I’ve very much enjoyed your comments. You’ve articulated we’ll a number of thoughts I’ve had for a very long time that have been a swirling around, resisting being grabbed ad pinned down in words. I hope you hang around and chime in.
@ Patrice: There are people that know how and when and where to say hurtful words – people who enjoy doing so.
I suspect that woman took advantage of your vulnerability. How ugly – and how human. It is an evil thing to do, but I don’t think it’s necessarily all that “spiritual.” (Am not implying that you were; only that many who come from that kind of background would say that she was being motivated by the demonic.)
the thing about the third Wave is that it also something that calls itself the “New Apostolic Reformation.” Many in the movement believe that they are supposed to cast out “territorial spirits” and “reclaim territory for God.” And that means actual, geographically mappable territory. (Some of them are deeply involved in what they refer to as “spiritual mapping.”) The thing is, if they ere “taking territory,” they’re not just supposedly reclaiming it from demons – they’re saying, by default, that the *people* who live there are complicit with evil.
Which leads to horrible things very fast. (I don’t think it needs spelling out.)
In other words, this is more than “signs and wonders,” it’s… political. Even if/when its proponents will not recognize it as such.
George Otis Jr. (of The Sentinel Group) and C. Peter Wagner believe that they and their teams of “prayer warriors” literally “killed Mother Teresa with [our] prayers.” Princess Diana was supposed to have died for much the same reason, as these people believe that both of them were involved with an evil “Goddess” spirit of some kind.
I know this all sounds crazy, but people with these beliefs have made serious inroads in political circles here in the US – and not just on a local level in a few back-of-beyond towns.
The church that booted me is very much into this garbage, and it’s located on Capitol Hill in D.C.
Which is one of the reasons I feel on edge whenever these things come up, and usually say something – at times more than is wise.
As for the source of bad thoughts and actions, well… there’s that time that Jesus was approached by some people who were upset about his appearing not to fall the ceremonial rules about washing things. And he said … that what defiles comes from inside a person, from their own hearts and minds. (I’m sure he believed that we are capable of good, but that wouldn’t have answered the question that was being put to him.)
Thank you, and the same to you!
@ Patrice:
“Thanks for your welcome, even though I have been croaking and scattering my dirty feathers across the comment section like a shabby old crow.” – Patrice
Patrice,
HowDee,
☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺Very nice to meet you! ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺
…bother us?
What?
Naaaaaaaaaaa…
-snicker-
Youze gots your reasons!
hmmm…
“croak”and “scatter” away!
Your bruises, and bitterness don’t un-make your beauty!
Itz right ‘there’ for anyone that takes the time ta see, wittle sparrow!
Cheeeeeeeeese!
They beat the cr@p outa ma Jesus, den daze turned n’ beat da cr@p outa me.
Youze in gooooood company!
Sit a spell, talk a while!
hum, hum, hum… “Just take a pebble …and cast it in to da sea…”
(Sigh…)
Sopy
—
Wade, I’ll admit that I am very angry at you right now. And I hate being angry at you, because I literally grew wings and flew around (alright, not literally…) for at least two days after listening to your teaching concerning women and the image of God. That series was an answer to prayer, and came at just the right time, the night after I cried out to God and asked him/her to help me heal by telling me the truth and showing me how he really feels about/sees his female creations.
Now some of your words seem so callous to me, and this time the tears are from pain. The truth is that I feel spiritually abused whenever anyone has the audacity to tell me that God sent the abuse into my life or that it was part of his design. I hate Calvinism and I hope it’s not true (and I know you’re not trying to change any minds here). It gives me tremendous relief and great peace to remember that I am free to believe otherwise. Because if the god you describe had a hand in the abuse, in that he was actively controlling what happened to me, and on some level wanted it to happen, then I have a few colorful words for this god and no longer wish to be a Christian. There is never a good reason for abuse to happen. I hate this god, who is void of love, and want nothing to do with him/her. In this case I would consider myself to have been conned by a sociopath, to have believed the lie that if there is a creator, she/he must be good.
Not sure how to explain why I feel the need to creep out of the shadows and say this…
This thread reminds me of the only line I remember from The Simpsons, “…and thank you for sending Lisa to protect us from the moth that you sent.” Never was a fan of that show.
“anon 1 – I am NOT accusing you of anything, nor claiming that *you* are making certain assumptions.
I very clearly said that OTHER people – lots of them – are swayed by that kind of thinking (or is it not thinking?)
So can we please just let this drop? It is NOT about you; only about what the churches I used to attend push as supposedly sound doctrine. Their numbers, sadly, are growing.”
I think it would be civil and appropriate to actually ASK a person if that is what they were thinking of or where they are coming from. What other scriptures should I be concerned to mention because cults use it for something bizarre? So, why not ask instead of poisoning wells first? Why the sneaky dance? Why try to totally hijack a convo over it? I am sure lots of OT verses can be used for some bizarre cult. This is not the first time you have done this. You seem to like to pick on me. I wish you would IGNORE my comments and not feel the need to try make them into something bizarro world. You are passive aggressive and need to deal with it. It is NOT honest.
“Forget Youze Dark Glasses?”
@ Oasis:
Oasis,
HowDee,
hmmm…
Jesus: “Before Calvin, I am.”
Pls. remba dat.
P.S. Jesus can dry your ‘tears’, and healz your ‘hurtz’.
if ☺
youze☺
letz☺
Him…☺
(☺Pls. Letz um!)
✿*´¨)
¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•` ¤ “Jesus can bringz dem bright warm SunB-e-a-m-s,”*´¨)
☺☺☺☺☺☺Tooooooo your dark ‘shadows’…☺☺☺☺☺☺
*
i prayed for u dis morn.
hmmm…
…it’s trash day.
(throw out ‘everything’ dat doesn’t work…)
if ‘any person’ b (in Christ) theyz susposta b a new creation, da old passes away, behold, da new has come, kinda good stuff.
huh?
Step into da Son_shine, sassy,
What?
Emotional tears are secreted in da moments of intense feeling – sometimes joy, but more often sorrow. (sadface) They contain doze stress hormones as a way of getting rid of dem. This may be one reason that crying is therapeutic when we’re under a lot of stress.
He is q-u-i-t-e capable of dry’in youze ‘crocodile tears’…
*
Keep’in da ‘real’ thingy, da ‘real’ thing?
…stop a accept’in doze Jezus “knock-offs”!
-snicker-
Youze get a’ Soul SunBURN.
datz um ba bad 4 your ‘magnifique’ complexion…huh?
(grin)
“I came that they might have life, and that life more abundantly.” -Jesus
P.S. Youze in good hands wit ‘Wartburg’. Theyz a’ care.
Cheeeeeeeese!
ATB
Sopy
—
@ Anon 1:
“Beautiful Take-Off?”
Anon1,
hmmm…
Yo! Bro,
Me thinks youze a’ runn’in outa runway, fella.
I hear doze engines a’ redlining…
Might wanna “‘take-off'” fo youze hurt somebuddy.
De air @ 40,000 feet is much, much cooler, don’t ya think?
Atterrissage heureux !
ATB
S“㋡”py!
—
@ Oasis:
I would have nothing to do with a god like that either, Oasis. I would spit on him, turn my back and walk straight into hell rather then enter a heaven of his sort. But the God I know is not like that. Here is the God worth believing in:
“Even though I walk through the valley of death, I fear no evil, for you are with me.” (Ps)
“Shout for joy, you heavens!
Rejoice, you earth!
Burst into song, you mountains!
For the Lord comforts his people
And he loves his suffering ones.” (Is)
“For You formed my inward parts,
You wove me in my mother’s womb.
I will give thanks to You
For I am astonishingly and wonderfully made.
Wonderful are Your works!”
It is in this house of truth that you can be safe and nurtured by genuine love.
Insomuch as Calvinism presents you with a different god, it is wrong. What you hear in it feels so awful because it echoes horrible suspicions you had when reeling from the abuse. But those suspicions are only suspicions. I know this. “So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper, I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?” (Heb) Mere mortals can say anything, right? Apparently even God believes in free speech, yah.
You are courageous to keep coming back to the issue. You are wise for recognizing it as the core of your pain. Wade gave you part of the picture regarding men’s power-hunger over women. The joy and relief you felt came from finding God. Stay there. Wade may or may not be wrong about stuff but our worthy God is not, ever.
My two cents.
^Also, what sopy said.^
Oasis wrote:
Oasis, thank you for your comment. I wish we could visit face to face because it is hard for my compassion and softness toward you and my respect for you to be seen in my face or felt from my voice. However, I will do my best to convey a few things that I hope will be helpful.
(1). You are absolutely correct! I am not attempting to change your mind to believe something I believe.
(2). I am attempting, however poorly, to better communicate what I believe. I have never believed Scriptures teach God “sends” abuse into anyone’s life. I have always believed Scriptures teach that God is able to take sin and evil (evil that originates from and is performed by sinners in rebellion to a good God) and orchestrate from it ultimate good to those who are called according to His purpose. In other words, God sends good.
(3). What good can God send from evil? Well, that’s a very, very big question that varies from person to person.
First, the promise that God works all things together for good is only given to “those called according to His purpose.” In other words, the person without Christ has no such promise. Every believer in Christ (like me and you) has this promise. Second, sometimes the good that God works out is not seen until years later. Beethoven’s mother was the victim of a horrific rape. Beethoven was the child of that rape. The rapist will be judged by God in time for his crime, and at that time God will be glorified in the display of His holy and infinite holiness and justice. Yet, until then, a number of God’s people have found their souls soothed in life by Beethoven’s work–including Beethoven’s own mother. God did not send the rape. God did not cause the rape. God worked good from the rape of Beethoven’s mother. Finally, we will sometimes not know the good God works out from any criminal abuse until we get to heaven. I believe this is part of God “wiping away every tear” in heaven.
(4). My understanding of God’s infinite power only enhances my understanding of his unconditional love. BUT, if for reasons of your pain because of evil perpetrated against you in this world, you must come to the place of having to deny God’s ability to know the future you must believe that God is powerless to stop evil — in order to maintain a belief that God is love— then there is not argument from me (and should be no argument from other people like me) when you state your beliefs. Why? Because we AGREE with you! God is love
So Oasis, if my words do not drive you to a deeper appreciation of God’s love; if my words do not find for you a fuller experience of His love; if my words do not move your mind to meditate more on His everlasting love for you — then by all means reject what I am saying! For me, God’s love is NEVER greater or richer than when I grasp by faith His power to work all things for my good. However, if my words do not communicate His love more richly and deeply to others, then I have failed – His love has not failed,nor have those who have listened to me failed, but I have failed. I cannot deny what is true in my own life (as you cannot either). I cannot contradict what I believe the Scriptures to teach (as you cannot either). I must declare those words that draw me deeper into His love.
So, if my words do not move you into a deeper understanding of God’s love for you, you have three choices: (a). Listen to them and reject them as not from God, or (b). Receive them (painfully) and realize that there may not YET be a deeper appreciation for God’s love because my words are not yet fully understood. Or, (c). Don’t listen to the messages that deal with God’s sovereingty. This third option is a very real option. There is a season for everything, and in the middle of any pain caused by abuse, its time for a season of emotional healing, not theological understanding. Some would argue that emotional healing comes from theological understanding. I say, “Nope. Emotional healing comes through a sympathetic hug.” Theological understanding only prepares someone for the future, not the past.
In the church I pastor, I go verse by verse through a book, but I have often told people who struggle with certain passages (like Romans 9 for instance) to stay away until I get through. One of my best friends struggles with election. During Romans 9 I encouraged him to stay away till I was through (it took six months). He skipped church for those six months, came back when I was through with Romans 9, and to this day (the incident happened ten years ago) we remain close and fast friends.
I am not saying which of the three above choices you should make. That’s between you and God, and as I have said before, my interpretation of Scripture could be wrong! However, when I speak of God’s power, God’s love, and God’s reign over all things I am compelled to sing:
“O love of God, how rich and deep!
Could we with ink the ocean fill,
And were the skies of parchment made;
Were every stalk on earth a quill,
And every man a scribe by trade;
To write the love of God above
Would drain the ocean dry;
Nor could the scroll contain the whole,
Though stretched from sky to sky.”
(5). I am used to people being angry when I teach! You should have seen the expressions of some when I showed how Scripture represents the full-orbed image of God in BOTH the male AND the female! I always appreciate people who express to me that they are angry. It means they are connected to their emotions, they are thinking through difficult issues, and they care enough to tell me the truth.
Thank you for your comments! Thank you for listening to the messages! My prayer for you, Oasis, is as follows (I have already prayed it using your name).
“For this reason I bow my knees before the Father from whom Oasis derives her name. I pray that He would grant Oasis, according to the riches of His glory, to be strenthened with power through His Spirit in her inner person, so that Christ may abide in her heart through her faith, and that Oasis, being rooted and grounded in HIs love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and height and depth of God’s love, and that Oasis may know this love which surpasses knowledge, that Oasis may be filled up with all the fullness of God, for God is love.”
Oasis, that is a BIG prayer, but I have assurance God will answer it:
“Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that I ask or think, according to the power that works within Oasis, to Him be the glory in Oasis’ life in Christ Jesus, to all generations to come, forever and ever. Amen.”
numo wrote:
Wouldn’t be the first time fanboys mistook fiction for fact. Author Mercedes Lackey used to have an essay up on the Web about when that happened to one of her fantasy series plus some horror stories of how far such fanboy obsession could go.
It’s probably compounded in Christianese by a phenomenon mentioned somewhere over at Slacktivist’s — inside the Christianese bubble, you don’t get exposed to much fiction (except Approved Bowdlerized Jesus Junk) so when the power of fiction does hit, it hits HARD. With confusion between Fiction and Fact. And with the Spiritual Warfare crowd, you get the distinct vibe of LARPing as Masters of Mighty Magick, learning the names of and commanding/rebuking Demons. (Move over Aliester Crowley…)
Now for Peretti himself. With his “spiritual warfare” thrillers, Peretti DID do something original in the line of Supernatural Thriller — the Seen and the Unseen working off each other, with mortals only conscious of the Seen. (I have heard of a genre of classic Chinese Opera which uses a similar premise.) Though I have also heard he was the type of author who needed a strong editor to really shine, and he didn’t have one until fairly late in his career (long after he made his bones with the Spiritual Warfare stuff).
I read parts of his earlier novels when they were The Next Big Thing and all I can say is “Yeah. Like you couldn’t be more obvious?” Above and beyond the fact that his first novel had a major strategic plot hole, building up his Big Bad (the Demon Prince of Persia) only to defeat/dispose of him trivially at the end.
And for what it’s worth, the last news I heard about Peretti was he had discontinued the Spiritual Warfare thrillers because too many fanboys were taking them for fact.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: His early books (the only ones I’ve read) were very badly written – and the Buffy comparison (Big Bad) is very apt!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
This!
numo wrote:
This sounds like something out of the Malleus Malefacarium, where Demons and Witches are Everywhere. (Except for Us, of course.)
As an aside, the Spanish Inquisition usually didn’t roll on Witchcraft accusations. (Inquisitors were paid a flat salary instead of a cut of the property of the Witches burned — funny about that.) When they did, the actual charge was “Heresy: Attributing Too Much Power to the Devil.”
And a lot of today’s Spiritual Warfare wanna-bes have made the Devil so Mighty even God would be helpless without the Mighty Spiritual Warriors and their Mighty White Magick to wallop all those Demons. Makes the Spiritual Warfare types really important, no? And explains why so many of them are so obsessed and shrill; they have made the Devil so Omnipotent that maybe deep down inside they’re afraid they picked the losing side.
numo wrote:
Like I heard at the Christian Fandom panel at that one WorldCon several years ago, he needed a strong editor and didn’t have one at the time.
One early Peretti scene that still haunts me is when all the Enemy types meet to plan how to destroy Born Again Bible Believing Christians in the one town. They come from afar to the meeting, each and every one controlled by DEMONS like Voudun Loa riding their Horses. And as each was introduced, my exact reaction was “THAT’s Madelyn Murry O’Hair, THAT’s The Amazing Randi, THAT’s Carl Sagan, THAT’s Dr Ruth Westeheimer, THAT’s Steven Jay Gould…” It was THAT obvious.
That scene is still on file as a “How NOT to Do It”, right up there with the Giant Rubber Scorpion Stinger scene from the one Thief in the Night sequel.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Bingo!
It gives meaning to their lives, I’m convinced. The idea of somehow leading a normal (or even banal, humdrum) existence while secretly being both sides of the Clark Kent-Superman equation is a powerful draw for many.
What’s very sad: it leaves those people high and dry; never having their real needs addressed. With no tools to know how to live.
Been there, done that. (Though I never got into the wholesale “spiritual warfare” thing in the way that many around me did… it made me extremely uncomfortable, especially when they started citing the wilder claims of both C. Peter Wagner and George otis Jr. – Otis is, not at all coincidentally, very good friends with the “pastor” of That Church. They met decades ago via YWAM.)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: The fact that the Big Bad types in “This Present Darkness” were presented as wholly and utterly evil – rather than as human beings – made me very uneasy, back when the book 1st came out.
Every character in those books had a predetermined role to play, and Frank Peretti got to stand in for God in making them mindless God (or devil) drones rather than people who were capable of making choices on their own.
numo wrote:
SF litfan since 1975. Small-time author in the genre (infrequent small-press only). For me, writing imaginative genre fiction is a balancing act. Your fantastic/fictional setting MUST be real enough to you that you can write effectively and powerfully in it, yet not real enough that you lose touch with Reality. It’s a balancing act. When done right, it can put the reader into that alternate reality for the duration of the read yet still (hopefully) bring him down afterwards.
numo wrote:
Makes me wish someone had turned them on to Dee & Dee instead of Spiritual Warfare. Then they could level up as Mighty Wizards and Clerics bashing all the balrogs they want without dragging all the rest of us in as minor NPCs.
I wonder… Do you think the reason they denounced Dee & Dee as Satanic was they didn’t want competiton for their own LARPing?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: Very likely yes.
@ Anon 1:
anon1,
i think you’re over-reating & coming on too strong to numo. She has communicated nothing unreasonable. I don’t think she was really addressing you initially. i have never observed any passive aggression.
This is not my website or my comment section but I would like to quibble with Wade some more. Would that be ok?
Patrice,
Rachelle and I are heading out of the country, going to Greece and Turkey. I will be gone for two weeks and I will have no access to a computer or phone. I would love to correspond with you more (quibbling is something I with which I am unfamiliar 🙂 ), but it would probably be best to wait to dialogue until I get back after Easter. I enjoyed our conversations.
Numo –
I did get your email response. Thanks. I tried to let you know by responding to it, but my response wouldn’t go through.
@ Bridget: Uh oh – try the Gmail addy by itself; there’s something wrong (glitchy) with my Gmail settings and I need to check into that.
Sorry for problems!
@ Bridget: I *think* the problem has been fixed – could you try again?
Thanks so much for your patience, Bridget! My apologies for any inconvenience. This account was hacked a year and a half ago, and I had to set up some temporary protection/forwarding stuff that’s no longer needed. (I hope, anyway!)
numo wrote:
Now in an event (plot) or theme-driven story, you can get by with pretty thin characterization, just enough to tell the story and/or make the point. I assume this was a lot more than that?
Is Peretti a Calvinist by any chance? Because that sounds a lot like either the Utter Predestination of Calvin (and Mohammed) or spillover from the run-on-rails checklist plot of Christian Apocalyptic.
P.S. I took the term “Big Bad” for the main villain from TV Tropes. I didn’t know Buffy coined it.
P.P.S. Undercutting the Big Bad weakens the storytelling considerably. A hero’s exploits are only as big as the villain he faces, and the villain usually sparks the plot situation in the first place. You need a strong villain to have strong heroes, to put power behind the conflict. Otherwise, you sabotage your own storytelling.
Tim Challies now reviewing a desk he got for free. http://www.challies.com/articles/sitting-is-the-new-smoking#more
At least we know what’s REALLY Important to him.
Numo –
Will try again later in the day. No apologies needed 🙂
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: Buffy fans coined “Big Bad,” as far as I know, though I really have no idea, since I’m not part of that crew.
I think Peretti is charismatic.
Oasis,
Pastor Burleson is a kind & good man. Why not accept him on that basis alone regardless of his religious and/or theological belief system?
@ numo:
Yeah, “Big Bad” came from Buffy herself. I watched it with my daughter every week when she was in high school. Much better than Peretti but still tv. But we enjoyed it thoroughly, alternately mocking it and being breathless about the slow coming of the ultimate “Big Bad”. And it was! Blew a deep hole in the town and everything. Lol
@ Patrice: I never watched it when it was airing; am only now getting to it in bits and pieces, via Netflix. Have pretty much been watching the episodes that are part of the main story arc and skipping the others – I can always go back…
@ Bridget: Cool!
@ Sopwith:
Thank you, Sopwith!
Patrice:
I said almost exactly the same thing to myself last night. I have no intention of ever leaving my Messiah…I am his and he is mine. Calvinism breaks my heart because in it, the God I know crumbles before my very eyes. Everything changes when I consider the abuse to have been part of his so-called “good” plan or design. That would mean he wanted it to happen.
Oh, thank you, God, for your wonderful plan of child abuse? You conducted my destruction like a glorious symphony!? Now I know for sure that you really love me!? I REALLY APPRECIATE IT!? /sarcasm
There is never a good “reason” for abuse to happen. No amount of “good” can ever make up for the abuse or make the events worthwhile or necessary.
Wade Burleson:
That’s not what I believe. I believe he knows the future and is all-powerful, but not that he is all-controlling and micromanaging all people and events.
Thank you for your prayer and please forgive me if I was too harsh. I do agree with Muff, and I’ll go away now, partly because I’m getting on my nerves but also because I agree with Anon 1:
The doctrine of total depravity sees evil as completely destroying the human soul instead of understanding it as an ongoing tendency to fall into brokenness. If one stays true to the doctrine of , one cannot exist in this world without constantly denying self in the most literal fashion, leaving the Holy Spirit to do everything through our emptied vehicles. (By the way, most Calvinists don’t stay true to it.)
I believe, however, that the work of Christ is to restore us to that which was originally in the mind of God when He/She made us. We still slip and turn away and wreck stuff, obviously, but the process of sanctification (cooperation with the Holy Spirit) is to become ever more as God intended. He/She liked how we were made! And He/She intended company/conversation, varieties of simplicity/complexity, and enjoyment/excitement. He/She didn’t want us to simply glorify like some co-dependent to a narcissist.
When the Calvinist looks at sin from this perspective, God Him/Herself would also naturally be emphasized as managing and predetermining everything. He/She’d have to, right? There’d be no other way to get through.
It is respectful to see God as so very much beyond us, but is is dangerous when it encourages us to see ourselves as empty vehicles mirroring a narcissist. I think this is why it is so unacceptable to people who have been recipients of severe relational abuse.
“Love God with all your soul and all your mind and all your might and your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and prophets [the complete Bible!].” Here are multiple distinct entities existing in mutual relationships of love and respect. The only vertical aspect is us to God and back–and since He/She is so absolutely good and loving, there are no worries that we will be despised, manipulated, slapped and wacked and broken, and told to shut up.
I sometimes wonder if one of the reasons that so many corrupt leaders have recently emerged in the Am Church is because of this incorrect understanding of God and sin. If we see God as a narcissist, then that is the relationship structure that is approved, and that is what we will imitate.
Patrice wrote:
Not only will we imitate that relationship, but we will expect that kind of relationship from people. We will see nothing wrong with that kind of relationship and accept it as normal on the giving and receiving end of it.
I agree with you, Patrice. Much of the American Church is infected with a view of God that does not reflect what God is like. That view of God is being perpetuated on the Church by many who are quite comfortable with the idea that God is an authoritarian who must control every molecule, hence they imitate what they believe. In my opinion, this is a small view of God and God’s abilities. (Is it not possible for God to have created such a perfect universe that once set in motion it could function and perpetuate itself without end? Why would God have to hold everything in place if He/She already created it to stay in place?) God said that what He/She created was “very good” when referring to mankind that was created in the image of God. How does mankind then become “so depraved” that we cannot be anything like what God intended? Was God so feeble in creating mankind that evil can completely take over that creation? (I think we would be seeing much worse evil on this earth if that were so.) I believe mankind can be somewhat like God intended which I would call “common grace.” All this being said, it does not negate the issue of evil and man’s will, which does not always desire the will of God as evidenced in the garden and as we can see within ourselves.
So much more can be said. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, even though many might not agree. It takes courage to put forth a different perspective these days. It seems that the “politically correct” (doctrine) mantra gets spouted from the Church as well.
@ Patrice: Excellnt points!
Patrice, are you Orthodox now?
@ Bridget:
Love it, Bridget!
The problem with reformed Christianity is that the confuse Sovereignty with the use of power rather than with having the authority and power. God is fully sovereign, but like any wise sovereign, does not use all of the power and authority that he has to determine every little thing that will happen in the future, so that human beings have no choice in the matter. Rather, by his love, he provides a means of grace for us to accept and return his love for us. Like any good parent, he desire that we choose to love him, because of his goodness and love, and not because we are robots mindlessly following some predetermined script.
@ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:
Yes! Sovereignty (in many circles) has become synonymous with “force.”
@ numo:
No, I belong to no denomination anymore. Attending church kept being painful, so I stop trying a while back. Besides, I am physically ill and services are a drain.
It’s important to remember that not all people under the umbrella of Calvinism are of the ilk decried on this site. A core of lovely believers took the perspective of Abraham Kuiper and then Herman Dooyeweerd, from whom Schaeffer drew the body of his ideas. Hans Rookmaaker is also connected with this stream of thought. It is a wonderful open view towards God and the world.
Unfortunately Schaeffer was also somewhat influenced by Cornelius Van Til, an old-time hard-ass type. Rushdoony nurtured that small seed, and thus grew a gigantic pernicious weed, where old Calvinism combined with ideas of theonomy and OT law to create the poisonous fruits we deal with now.
@ Bridget:
“Not only will we imitate that [narcissistic] relationship, but we will expect that kind of relationship from people. We will see nothing wrong with that kind of relationship and accept it as normal on the giving and receiving end of it.”
Yep. And it’s not seen only among the Calvinist-based communities.
Since people these days seem to enjoy the playground game of bullying each other over imagined heresies, I’ll chime in to say that this is a real one, and a stinker.
Patrice,
I like your thinking. I’m wondering though, didn’t Schaeffer make an attempt to try and distance himself from Rushdoony, much Like Luther tried to smooth over his piece: On the Jews and Their Lies?
@ Muff Potter:
Yes, he did back away from it. But that he had to “back away” kind of proves the point, yah.
However, it’s not his fault that Rushdoony et al picked up that tone, then also grabbed Dooyeweerds/Schaeffer’s beautiful proposal, that all the world is God’s and every place worthy of Christian endeavor, and gave it a wicked little twist, so that it became “all the world is God’s and every place should be brought under the umbrella of Christianity”. Just a little turn of the screw from “going out there” to “bringing it all in” and the whole thing turned to rot. Bah
Thus Michelle Bachmann said that her earliest influences were Schaeffer, followed by the ideas of Rushdoony. Thus the essential face of Reconstructionism, with it’s emphasis on control and authority and the harsher points of Calvinism married to OT law, have risen to the top of Christianity, first via the likes of Gary North (who married Rushdoony’s daughter) and Dobson, and now superceded by these YRR boys in all their man-i(n)festations and books on the foyer table of every church across the US. Humbug
Meanwhile the nation is going to hell in a handbasket, its business/banking CEOs and politicians having taken precisely the same kind of authoritarian elitist positions as these religious leaders, even down to the nepotism and deliberate opaqueness regarding their monies, rationales, and internal activities.
So one can see that, in the end, the Reconstructionists wildly succeeded in bringing the broad world under the umbrella of the church. Of course, they have no clue because it snuck in by way of their hearts, through their corrupted longings for power and control. And that is a story as old as humanity, even older than Calvinism lol
Thanks, Muff. I’m not sure you should be giving me encouragement–I do go on.
@ Patrice: As someone who spent a short time at Swiss L’Abri in the late 70s, I have to say that I was surprised by the rigidity of some of the thinking there, both from the way that a certain kind of Presbyterianism was held to as well as to the “culture war” stuff that was already coming into play.
I was both confounded by and deeply disappointed in L’Abri, partly because I’d idealized it, and partly because of the rigidity that I saw in many workers and in the church services (to some degree; I used to zone out because I had never heard hour+ sermons before and church always seemed to go on forever…).
But – I *did* meet a lot of really nice people there!
@ numo:
Ach. I was an undergrad in the late 70s and wanted very much to attend L’Abri. I needed those ideals to keep me vertical so it’s a good thing I couldn’t manage it. And after having spent my youth staring at my wretched father as he gave his twice-weekly sermons, 1+ hour sermons would’ve sent me into grand mal seizures, hah. Thank God for small favors.
Do you remember how the “war” part of “culture war” was presented? Did it have a “take over the world for Jesus” feel?
@ Patrice: “Take over the world…”: No, not from L’Abri staff (that I ever heard, at least), but some of the people who came there from the US had that attitude.
And they were showing Franky’s film series in the town hall at the time. it was wretched, but local people got a kick out of it, as many of them were in it, sometimes dressed up in a lot of Roman Catholic regalia (i seem to recall a cardinal in a sedan chair?).
As I’d grown up Lutheran, I was dumbfounded to see that they brushed by Luther (and Hus) with barely a word for either. You’d think Calvin and Co. were THE reformers. (Lowercase-r is deliberate.)
@ Patrice: Hey – there were some great people there, and… some strange ones.
I will NEVER forget being made to iron underwear (even little kids’ underwear) by a couple who were from England and who lived in one of the chalets that was pretty far up the ridge. (Am blanking on its name at the moment.) I mean – ????!!! If you’re gonna be THAT picky about your linens, do it yourself, lady!!!
56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC wrote:
And God is reduced to nothing but raw POWER.
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering among your inferiors.” — Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984
And to be Godly and Righteous, you have to seize POWER, too. And rule as you imagine God to rule — with His boot stamping on man’s face. Forever.
Because when you reduce things to POWER and Power Struggle, there are only two possible end states — My boot stamping on your face or your boot stamping on my face. Everybody look at the picture of Big Brother on the wall and everybody stamp harder.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
“Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak; and that it is doing God’s service when it is violating all His laws.” John Adams
“The power of authority is never more subtle and effective than when it produces a psychological “atmosphere” or “climate” favorable to the life of certain modes of belief, unfavorable, and even fatal, to the life of others.” Arthur Balfour The Foundations of Belief, 1895
“What luck for the rulers that men do not think.” Adolf Hitler
numo: ironing underwear. Idle hands are a devil’s workshop, upstairs/downstairs Brit style. lol
numo wrote:
Hey Numes, I need to email you with potential names for this! Patrice, I have a very long standing association with British L’Abir & have headed table discussion & done some during the week lectures.
L’Abir? Time for me to go to bed.
@ Beakerj: While I realize that wash and wear fabrics were a new thing in Europe c. mid-late 70s, I have:
1. never met anyone else who ironed underwear
2. never met anyone else who would assume that someone else should iron their underwear
3. and never seen anyone else grouch about supposedly wrinkly underwear when it was perfectly fine and not wrinkle at all, especially, the toddlers’ stuff
Between that and having to clean up a sink in which someone had trimmed his beard and hair and left fast to go to another chalet so that he didn’t have to clean up the mess himself, i just….!!!!
Oh, and the heavy tread of the proctors in the study room. At that point, there were few books but an abundance of reel-to-reel tapes of lectures. I’ve never done well with listening to lectures on tape (even audiobooks are hard for me), so spending half the day doing *that* and trying to not get caught while surreptitiously sketching (which is something I can do while listening)… sigh.
I was so glad when my student term was up. My guess is that I was there at the wrong time of year (summer), but then, staying through the winter meant having to deal with a super starch-heavy diet. A friend who did that put on 30 lbs. in a very short time and had quite a battle to get rid of it.
@ Beakerj: And then there was mandatory high tea on Sunday.
In some ways, the place was charming, while in others, just plain eccentric and sometimes outrightly weird.
There were also cute little goats and small red (and I do mean red!) cows, and good food at the two local bistros. (Though better food was to be had further up/down the mountain.)
The only time I felt truly relaxed was while at an informal dinner at John and Prisca’s house. I wish their style had been de rigeur, but…
@ Patrice
Hey,
Thanx fer da inspiration. ☺
*
Uricka! Da Cream OF Christianity: Da proverbial Twisting of Francis Schaeffer’s Beautiful Little ‘RootSeller’ Pro-pos-al?
What? (mo puzzle pieces) ☺
“Christianity provides a unified answer for the whole of life.” -Francis Schaeffer
o.k. ☺
…dat all the world is God’s, and every place worthy of ‘Christian’ endeavor?
o.k. ☺
These were wonderful ‘thoughts’ of thankfulness expressed to the ‘Sovereign’ God of the universe!
sure. ☺
Ize rememba a piece of dis here ole hymn:
* “All the world is God’s own field, fruit unto His praise to yield; Wheat and tares together sown unto joy or sorrow grown.” -Henry Alford.
o.k. ☺
Screeeeeeeeeeeeeech!
Crunch!
What?
…but it would seem dat somebudy gave dis ‘thought’, just a wicked widdle lit’l twist, so dat it became:
Dunt, Dunt, Dunt-Dunt…
“…all the world is God’s, and every plaze should be brought under da umbrella of Christianity”.
Hmmm…
Just a wee lit’l turn of da ‘screw’ from:
“going out there…”
to:
“bringing it all in!”
and den da whole dang gone thingy has turned ta rot!?!
huh?
Francis Schaeffer…, followed by the ideas of Rushdoony,
(…who nurtured that small seed, and thus grew a gigantic ‘pernicious’ weed, where old Calvinism combined with ideas of theonomy and OT law to create the ‘poisonous’ fruits we deal with now…)
(light bulb moment. ka chink!)
…thus the essential face of Reconstructionism appeared,
Ta Daa! (instant horse hockey…)
(with it’s emphasis on ‘Control’ and ‘Authority’ and the various ‘harsher points’ of Calvinism married to da Bible O.T. law), have now risen ‘like proverbial cream’ to the top of Christianity?)
KaaaaChunk! (sound familiar?)
…first via da likes of the illustrious Gary North, and others, and now superseded by them there proverbial YRR ‘boyz’ in all their man-i(n)festations (he, he good one!) and books on the foyer table of every church across the US.~
hmmm…
I can see clearly now, da fog is gone, there ain’t no rushdoony gooey,
in my way…
-snicker-
So one can see that, -in the end, the Reconstructionists (have?) wildly succeeded in bringing the broad world under the umbrella of the church… ?
Ho!
Of course, they have no clue because it snuck in by way of their hearts, through their corrupted longings for ‘Power’ and ‘Control’?
Screeeeeeeeeeeeeech!
…And that is a story as old as humanity, even older than Calvinism?
*
Patrice…youze so funny!
…not so sure we should b giving you any encouragement, you do go on, and on…?!?
hmmm…
No snacks perhaps fer youze after midnight, dearie!
do b do…
Thanx fer da ‘Edison’ moment!
(grin)
S_py-_-_-_-_“㋡”
___
P.S. (I hope ya feelz bedder real soon!) ☺
—