We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice, we are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself. -Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Total eclipse of the sun in Australia-NASA
Here is a hypothetical situation. You are about to board an airplane which has recently been repaired after a serious engine malfunction. As you board the plane, the pilot announces that all is well. The mechanics have assured him that there is now only a 40% chance of an engine failure while in flight. Would you board the plane?
Yet, some of today's churches take that risk all the time when it comes to a child predator because the predator is viewed as being no longer a problem. Here are a few reasons that are sometimes given.
- He got married.
- He became a Christian.
- His probation officer told me there is no problem.
- She has repented. (Yes, women can be pedophiles)
If a church that you attend makes these claims, it is time to ask questions.
Disclaimer: I am not addressing a situation such as 18 year old guy who has sex with his 15 year old girlfriend and lands of the sex offender registry.
Proposed Scenario:
Let's say that there is a man who has been convicted for molesting a 5 year old child and he is now attending your church. Why should you be concerned?
Statistics on pedophilia
According to this paper from Harvard called Pessimism About Pedophilia:
One challenge in the scientific literature is that most of the studies on pedophilia have involved men convicted of crimes against children, and experts estimate that only one in 20 cases of child sexual abuse is reported. It remains unclear how prevalent pedophilia is in the general population. Research on convicts may not apply to people with pedophilic tendencies who live without detection in the community or suffer silently while controlling their impulses.
What is pedophilia?
According to a TWW post, the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual link pedophilia is defined as
recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child.
Can it be cured?
From the same post:
Web MD states, "Sadly, there is no cure for pedophilia." This is true. There is no cure, but there is treatment.
I want to make an important point. Marriage does not cure pedophilia. The pedophile has a compulsive behavior and is attracted to children. Some pedophiles have been known to marry in order to have access to children within the intimate home environment link.
Unfortunately, when investigating the issues surrounding child molestation, we find statistics all over the map since so few molesters are ever caught. However, it is important to understand that pedophilia just doesn't evaporate when a person "becomes a Christian." Here are some reported stats.
Pedophiles have a high risk of reoffending.
From the above post at TWW:
According to a study by Abel in 1987, reported in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2(1), 3-25, offenders against female children had an average of 19 victims, while those against male children had an average of 50.
From a post intended to downplay the reoffense rate link
The accurate statement would be that the offenders committed an average of 128 offenses (This means there are higher and lower offense rate-ed. note)
From a later study by Abel link
A 1994 National Institute of Health survey of 453 pedophiles, conducted by Dr. Gene Abel, showed these criminals were collectively responsible for the molestation of over 67,000 children. That’s an average of 148 children per individual pedophile.
Here is a take away point. The average pedophile, by the time he is arrested, is highly likely to have molested others but was not caught.
Are all of these arrested offenders easy to spot?
"There are 400,000 registered sex offenders in the United States, and an estimated 80 to 100,000 of them are missing. They're supposed to be registered, but we don't know where they are and we don't know where they're living. -Ernie Allen, President of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Childrento co-anchor Hannah Storm on The Early Show link.
But, wouldn't good Biblical teaching prevent the pedophile from re-offending? (From previous link)
The behavior is highly repetitive, to the point of compulsion, rather than resulting from a lack of judgment. Dr. Ann Burgess, Dr. Nicholas Groth, et al. in a study of imprisoned offenders.
Don't background checks prevent this sort of thing? (From previous link)
Inmates who victimized children were less likely than other inmates to have a prior criminal record-nearly 1/3 of child victimizers had never been arrested prior to the current offense, compared to less than 20% of those who victimized adults.- BJS Survey of State Prison Inmates, 1991.
They are Christians, now. They won't do it again, right?
Wrong-would you get on a plane with the following statistical probability of engine failure?
From a Harvard paper link
One review found recidivism rates of 10% to 50% among pedophiles previously convicted of sexual abuse, although this could include anything from an arrest for any offense to reconviction on a crime against a child. One long-term study of previously convicted pedophiles (with an average follow-up of 25 years) found that one-fourth of heterosexual pedophiles and one-half of homosexual or bisexual pedophiles went on to commit another sexual offense against children.
Aren't pedophiles strangers hiding in the bushes? From the previously quoted Harvard study:
Parents should be aware that in most sexual abuse cases involving children, the perpetrator is someone the child knows.
Is it the church's fault if pedophiles show up churches?
Of course not! Pedophiles will target any institution that has trusting parents and kids. This goes for churches, Boy Scouts and youth sports. The shame belongs to those who want to hide the problem.
What should we do with a "repentant" pedophile/molester who want to come to church?
Churches often hide the fact that a convicted pedophile is at the church. This may be out of the misguided belief that conversion, Bible study and mentoring can "cure" the problem.
This is dangerous. Pedophiles are highly manipulative and can appear to be repentant when they are grooming their next victim. Or, they may want to do the right thing but are struggling with terrible urges. Remember: this is a compulsive behavior not rooted in good judgment.
What is a sign that a pedophile is not repentant?
This past summer, TWW reported a situation in which a convicted pedophile, Don Cameron, moved back into the neighborhood where his reported victims lived.The neighbors were horrified. At the same time, he was asked not return to his church campus because he did something. The church is not saying what "the something" is. You can read about it here link. By God's grace, we were able to apply some mild pressure and he moved out within days link.
This is NOT, I repeat, Not a repentant pedophile.
How do we know if a pedophile is repentant?
A pedophile/molester shows repentance by going the extra mile to be blatantly open about his past. Everyone in a church must be informed about his presence. This is the only solution, in my opinion. Wade Burleson of Emmanuel Baptist Church spoke with Janet Mefford and gave us some insight into how he handles this
We work with sex offenders in Celebrate Recovery, a program in our church, and we have those who worship, but when someone who's been convicted of a sexual crime is being ministered to in our church, we write a letter saying they are welcome to come, then we post their picture, we post their crime, and we distribute it to every person who is an employee or a servant in the church who's working with other people and say this is the person that's coming, this is what he did, you need to know his face, you need to know his name, you need to identify him, you need to love him, but he is never to be alone in any room with any person. And you know people have been upset with that. Why would you do that? And we tell the sex offender, that's the consequence of the choice you made when you abused a child. And so that's what we do."
From Wade's comment we see some helpful suggestion that a church should consider to help a pedophile/molester be truly "repentant."
- Announce his conviction and presence to the church.
- Put his picture up around the church.
- Make sure the pedophile/molester is escorted at all times.
- Make programs such as Celebrate Recovery available to those who struggle.
- Make sure people in your church understand the issues surrounding child sex abuse. (Tune in this week to E Church to hear such a sermon.)
Most importantly, TWW believes that church should make a concerted effort to remember the victims and to reach out to them when appropriate. It is not always that difficult as seen by our previously mentioned intervention in the Don Cameron situation.
A Public Service Announcement to (SGM) CrossWay Community Church in Charlotte, NC.
On 3/1/13 Marge Sweigart (she has bravely decided to use her name due to her concern for the safety of children at this church) posted the following comment at TWW.
SGM would be wise to heed Wade Burleson’s advice. I was horrified to learn yesterday that there is a registered sex offender who molested a 5 year-old who is currently an usher at my former church (CrossWay Charlotte). He was there when we were there and he is still there. I asked someone who is still at CrossWay if they recognized his face. He did. I asked if he had heard anything about him being a sex offender. He had not. NO ONE KNEW except the pastors and a few of their chosen ones. They did not inform us as care group leaders or as parents. I was involved in children’s ministry and oversaw the bathroom monitors (security for kids during church) and I was not informed. My husband was a team leader on the church’s security team and he says he doesn’t recall ever being informed.
I called Marge and asked her for some details. Her response prompted me to call CrossWay on March 1st. I was able talk with the church's executive administrator, David Moore. I identified myself and said I was an editor for TWW. I then read the above comment to him. I asked if he would confirm, deny or not comment on the statement. He told me that he did not have the "authority" to do so. He said he would talk with those who do and if they wished to respond, they would contact me. There has been no further communication.
In keeping with our belief that churches must be open and honest with their members about the presence of convicted pedophiles/molesters/sex offenders in their midst, we want to alert CrossWay that it is alleged that a man, convicted of taking indecent liberties with a 5 year old, has been attending your church since 2009. At one point it is alleged he served as an usher ( a position of respect within this community.) We believe that, if this man is penitent, he will be accepting of this post.
PS -Please forgive the overuse of the word "alleged."
Kevin Scott Davis, JR. (Convicted sex offender)
Alleged Time Line
October 2009: According to an alleged statement by Davis' wife, the two of them have been at the church since 10/09 but did not marry until 2011
October 3, 2009: Date of the offense
October/November 2009: Coverage by WBTV.com link
Huntersville Police arrested Kevin Scott Davis, Jr., on Saturday and charged him with one count of indecent liberties with a child.
According to the search warrant, Davis showed the victim a movie on his computer. Based on the child's description, the movie appeared to be pornographic in nature. Davis is also accused of inappropriately touching the child.
During the second incident which happened a month earlier, Davis is accused of tickling and inappropriately touching the victim.
September 9, 2010: From the North Carolina sex offender registry: link
Davis was sentenced to 3 years probation of taking indecent liberties with a 5 year old minor. He will be on the sex offender registry for a minimum of 10 years (9/2020).
You can see his photos on this page.
September/ 2009 or 2010: At some point it is alleged that the pastors of CrossWay became aware of this conviction and that the care group for Davis was notified.
March 2011: Davis' wife allegedly states they are a newly married couple. Therefore, she married a convicted sex offender. Was this with the pastors' blessing? We don't know.
August 2011: Kevin Davis and his wife were listed as members in the CrossWay online directory in 8/2011.
August 2011: Marge Sweigart, who says she was involved with children ministry and her husband, who says he was the team leader for the security team, leave the church after learning about the Detwiler documents. At this time, they allege that neither of them had ever had been informed of the presence of the sex offender.
November 2011: A friend of the Sweigarts allegedly finds out about the presence of Davis via the sex offender registry and allegedly expresses concern, via email, to the pastor because she/he alleges that Davis was an usher. It is alleged that the security team is informed at this time. Davis is reportedly not allowed downstairs in childrens' ministry area. Allegedly, the pastor who received the email said that Davis had become a Christian after the conviction. Why is this relevant to the safety concerns?
March 2012: Another friend leaves the church. He used to be the head of one usher team (there were allegedly two). He allegedly recognized Davis after looking at the sex registry photo. He allegedly stated that Davis was not on his usher team but did not know if he was on the other team. He allegedly states that, while he was at the church, he was not told that Davis was a sex offender.
August 2012: Kevin Davis and his wife were allegedly listed in the CrossWay membership directory for 8/12.
March 1, 2013: A close friend of the Sweigarts, who is allegedly a current teacher in the CrossWay children's ministry, claims that she hadn't been informed of the presence of Davis in the church.
March 2, 2013: A married couple, with small children, who are allegedly friends with the Sweigarts, who are allegedly current members of CrossWay were contacted via email by Marge on this date. They allegedly claim that they did not know of the presence of the sex offender.They allegedly expressed gratitude for the information.
March 2013 A close friend, who is a member of the current security team, alleges that he has been informed that Davis is a sex offender.
March 2013: An alleged employee/staff member allegedly did not know that a sex offender is present in the church.
Does this church ever inform the membership of those who are under church discipline?
From Marge:
It's interesting to me to think about how the pastors would always inform the church when people were under church discipline for things like adultery, alcoholism, and becoming a Mormon. This would sometimes be announced at a members meeting, but more often, they would either email all the church members or they would email an announcement to the care group leaders and have them read the announcement at their respective care group meetings. And those meetings had members, visitors, and teenagers at them. I remember one instance where the church was informed that a care group leader had to step down from leadership because his teenage daughter became pregnant out of wedlock. And yet when a registered sex offender joins the church, it's kept secret from all but a few people.
I asked Marge what she believes is the thinking is behind allegedly alerting the entire church about a pregnant teenager but allegedly not alerting them about a sex offender:
They do background checks on children's ministry workers and they probably do for ushers, too. It's possible that the pastors didn't know about his conviction until he decided he wanted to be an usher. I think their thinking is that the man confessed what he had done so there is no need to tell people about it. They probably want to extend grace to him and give him a chance to prove himself, but I think they are also very naive about sex offenders.
One final concern from Marge:
I also had the thought today that people should be informed when there's a sex offender because activities go on all the time in the building that involve children – dance classes, homeschool co-ops, drama, kids going with their parents for various things like rehearsals and stuff like that. The building is usually open at those times and anyone can wander around. If adults don't know that someone is a sex offender, they might see him there and not think anything of it. The pastors and his care group can't trail him 24 hours a day.
End of public service announcement
We want to commend the bravery of Marge Sweigart for speaking out about this situation. Her concern for the welfare of the children in SGM is to be commended. Jesus loves children. He warned that those who would harm them deserved a swim in sea with cement boots. Marge is a hero. Kris at SGM Survivors is a hero. Jim, formerly of SGM Refuge, is a hero. The people who were abused and brought the suit against SGM are heroes. (ed.note 3/7/13 9:23 PM- I am referring to those victims whose pedophiles were caught and were convicted. The other alleged victims are also heroes)! Please join with me in praying for these wonderful people who put themselves on the line in order to speak out and serve the most vulnerable amongst us. May God bless all of you!
Lydia's Corner: Joshua 15:1-63 Luke 18:18-43 Psalm 86:1-17 Proverbs 13:9-10
Great article and thanks for writing it Dee. This needs to be addressed. It’s a problem because in these organizations they are making decisions for the members and it’s not their place. I hope this opens the eyes of parents and members, Shake them and Wake them.
I am very thankful for my good friend Marge for coming forward and be willing to share important information for the safety of the children there. Thankful for all that come forward to share what they know so that others might be protected.
It does anger me and I will have to work through that. You can’t go back and fix what damage is done to a child when an abuse is done. As a Mother of two boys, I try to be very cautious. No matter what others say. It’s crazy because others say to me, “You’re too protective” No, I don’t think so just being aware and I am glad I am because if I left it up to Church organizations then I would be fooled.
“It’s interesting to me to think about how the pastors would always inform the church when people were under church discipline for things like adultery, alcoholism, and becoming a Mormon. . . . And yet when a registered sex offender joins the church, it’s kept secret from all but a few people.”
Something’s wrong with that? Forget the pedophiles, just let me know if there are any Mormons skulking about. How callous can be you be to keep a pedophile secret yet broadcast every ‘sin’ a member has committed? Churches like these are truly ward and twisted.
A big BRAVO and thanks to Marge for sharing this information. Marge – you have not only experienced the SGM abuse first-hand, but are making very positive steps to help bring exposure so this will stop (ie, heading up the SGM appeal sent to national church leaders). Thank YOU!!!
Dee – This information is so important to get in churches/ministries. Thank you for writing this article. I’m going to link to it the resource area on my blog.
The pedophilia issue is one that is very important to me personally as I have very personal connections with one, have observed pedophilia in my former church, and have observed how the church and various ministries have dealt (inappropriately) with pedophiles.
I have also observed how this personal acquaintance pedophile, a male, has attempted to integrate in church environments, attempting to show that he has repented. Based on these observations, I know that he has not fully repented and It has been eye-opening. Church leaders need to know these clues so they can help safeguard children in their midst.
One of the biggest patterns of a non-repentant pedophile is that they have great difficulty being under accountability because part of them still wants to indulge in the sexual crime. They really don’t want full accountability, but a loophole. Consequently, they go from place to place with the appearance of being under accountability trying to pacify those who are watching them, yet not being under full accountability. Another point – many times unrepentant pedophiles will demand relationship with their victims claiming they want full reconciliation because that’s the Christian thing to do. They have no right to make that demand. They were the perpetrator. (SGM is wrong in how they orchestrate this reconciliation process.)
Someone who is truly repentant will make absolutely sure that they have accountability. They go out of their way to make sure that the victim feels safe and that they and children are safe (ie, getting accountability partners, making sure they are never alone when going to restroom, partnering with someone whenever they are in the presence of minors, etc.) They do not demand any sort of relationship with victims, knowing that they do not deserve a relationship with them.
God bless you, Marge. I hope the parents at CrossWay will take note not only of the sex offender in their midst, but also of the church leadership who valued the offender’s privacy above the safety of their children. This makes CrossWay an unsafe environment for kids. I pray that another child has not already been victimized.
So do I understand this correctly, that the Crossway “leadership” wimped out and never called you back?
I read this blog throughout the week, and have learned a lot over the last couple of months. I have to say I have never commented because most probably would not welcome my thoughts. after all, I”m a reformed, complementarian, young earth, inerrantist, southern baptist, etc. so I don’t quite fit the mold here.
However, I am in solidarity with your post here on child abuse in the church. I am a pastor, and father of soon to be a 5th child. This scenario of abuse is my worst night mare. I minister in an area where there are convicted sex offenders. I would try to do what Wade Burelson is doing. He is absolutely right. If the offender is truly repentant, they will gladly submit to this list. I knew a man who confessed to dabbling in in teen porn at another church. He was truly repentant. He confessed to the church, and hten turned around and went to the police and confessed at the precinct (even though they had no clue). He then was forgiven by the church, but agreed publically to do whatever the elders told him which was almost exactly waht Burelson wrote. Gladly, he has never sinned again., and is now married with three beautiful children. The Gospel transfromed him. Sadly, he is dying of a brain tumor now yet a testimony to what true repentance and salvation look like.
One thing I am assured of (unfortunately) is that most of the men in leadership at SGM churches have no idea how to deal with a pedophile, or any other convicted abuser, in their midst nor how to deal with issues of abuse when they are brought to their attention. They really need to do some serious training in this area. They are well behind most ALL other organizations when it comes to caring for their own. And they call themselves pastors.
Another major problem in this case, as with many in SGM, is that the elders in the church are able to protect their families and children because they have knowledge of the issues. BUT the rest of the congregation is not given the knowledge so that they can care for their families appropriately. This is called “tiered” caring. The upper level hierarchy gets preferred care. Is this Jesus’ intention for the functioning of the Church CrossWay CC?
“Church Engine Failure, Or Some Other?”
HowDee,
“Churches often hid the fact that a convicted pedophile is at the church.” -Dee
Is the Church pilot(s) “asleep” @ da proverbial wheel?
What does that say for our children?
“”Flight””
“The people who were abused and brought the suit against SGM are heroes.” -Dee
Indeed! All those who bring awareness to this grave issue, are heroes.
…We need ta wake up da church pilot(s)?
(sadface)
>-((S㋡py((º>
—
PP wrote:
If you don’t say we can’t be Christians without these beliefs then I”m OK with you hanging out here. 🙂
After all, isn’t Wade’s church a member of the SBC?
On his blog, JMJ/Christian Monist writes a lot about the common idea that pedophilia (or similar) just evaporates when you “become a Christian”. And how IRL that just doesn’t happen (or is so rare it makes no difference). He traces it to Gnostic influences among Evangelicals, separating the Spiritual from the Physical universe and making the Unseen superior to the Seen. Like physical reality doesn’t exist and only the Spiritual is real.
When reading this article, I kept thinking about that Doug Wilson story in which he was involved with helping a pedophile marry a young lady from his church. They had to get special permission from the judge to marry. He is not allowed to be around children. I wonder if she’s gotten pregnant yet. Y’all know what Doug Wilson thinks about being fruitful . . .
When considering sex offenders and the whole “if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away,” let’s just say I think the protocol outlined in this post is a pretty good deal.
Who I am sure are taking steps to protect THEIR kids from him.
Bridget wrote:
This is called “Some are More Equal than others.”
@ PP:
“…probably would not welcome my thoughts. after all, I”m a :
reformed,
complementarian,
young earth,
inerrantist,
southern baptist,
etc., etc., etc….”
so you don’t quite fit the mold here?
hmmm…
The people who comment here are heroes, many have been abused, neglected, shunned, disfellowshipped, and so forth…
Yet they speak their mind and are heard, and listen’d too, sometimes there is also convo…
Sure, some have been hurt do dang bad, they have lost there faith…
Yet they speak their mind and are heard, and listen’d too, sometimes there is also convo…
hmmm…
…did the good Samaritan ask the guys religious persuasion, as he was lying in da road beaten and bleeding?
Please don’t da abuse kind folk’s sensibilities here.
Speak your mind…
hey,
Maybe someone will even listen.
(grin)
Ya never know…
ATB
Sopy
Yes, the whole “he said he’s sorry” theology rears it’s ugly head. Regret and even remorse are not the same as “contrition” (or repentance).
We just head this posted on our blog by Dr. George Simon, Jr. and I think pastors would do well to learn the difference:
http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/how-to-recognize-true-and-false-contrition-by-dr-george-simon-jr/
Thank You Marge. I respect and appreciate you. I absolutely agree with what you have said and what you have done to help and not censure. I hope others learn that if someone is actually repentant they would want protection for themselves and others. These crimes have to stop being protected in our churches. People must come forward and pastors must be responsible to disclose this information to the members. Thank You!
@ Julie Anne:
Yes Julie Anne. I know what you are saying concerning Doug Wilson. I had friends that followed him and I read some of his stuff but was never a big fan. Very condemning person. That kind of makes me sick to think he was setting up a pedophile and a young lady and had to get a judge to approve it.
What in the heck is wrong with people??!!
Such an honest post, Dee. This is great.
I have to say, when I read this in the Harvard excerpt: “suffer silently while controlling their impulses”…
I felt such compassion. This is so tough.
***************
Thank you for commenting, PP. A slightly tangential question: You say the Gospel transformed him. If this truly happened, wouldn’t it be more accurate to say the Holy Spirit transformed him? The explosive dunamis power of the Holy Spirit that was the agent, instead of a concept (the Gospel)?
I am very sorry for his illness. I hope for physical healing for him.
PP,
I’m a Southern Baptist (like you) while Dee no longer is, and yet we get along well. Do we all have to be Christian clones? That would be cultish, don’t you think?
JeffT wrote:
The Church Discipline for Becoming a Mormon thing– wouldn’t the Mormons also have to discipline that person for associating with a non-Mormon church? Unless the person had already left months before and forgotten to officially resign? Then again, they *disciplined* and *excommunicated* Brent years after he’d left SGM!
Jeff S wrote:
Not to mention that, just like all the public ‘apologies’ we hear from CEO’s and public figures who do or say something bad, most of the public ‘repentance’ we hear is just BS. All it means is they got caught and now they claim they are sorry but the only thing they’re sorry for is that they got caught. Yet many people buy it and the perp goes on just like before laughing all the way at all they chumps out there. I know this sounds coldhearted, but, of all the public ‘apologies’ and ‘repentances’ you’ve heard, what percentage of them were, in the end, really heartfelt based on any changes they made after the fact? In my experience, it’s pretty darn small.
@ Deb:
What is Dee now if she is no longer SBC?
@ PP:
I think the only position on your list that isn’t represented in the comments here is complementarian. (Any comps please correct me if I’m wrong.) There are Reformed, YEC, inerrantist and SBC commenters. Thanks for your contribution.
He also tips towards Reformed. @ Lynn:
Nondenominational@ Hester:
Deb
Bite your tongue. You know we have been called a “cult” in the past. We have since formed the Cult of the Holy Chocolate. With cults like that, who needs orthodoxy?@ Deb:
@ PP:
We are a smorgasbord of backgrounds. We simply stand for victims of spiritual abuse, particularly child sexual abuse. So, you are in solidarity with us. Congrats on the soon-to-be fifth child. Five is a good number, I think. 🙂
dee wrote:
Speaking of which, isn’t it about time for a communion? 🙂
@ Jeff S.:
I have to ask you something that’s been confusing me for a while. You keep referencing A Cry for Justice as “our” blog, so are you Jeff as in Jeff Crippen? This would make sense except Crippen’s bio says he is married and you keep referencing a divorce.
Sorry if this is something obvious that poor clueless me should have figured out a long time ago. : (
Been There
You betcha!
patti
Welcome to TWW and thank you for your support of Marge.
PP
Welcome to TWW. I am glad we have found a source of agreement. Also, I do not know what the mold is here. Can anyone clue me in?
@ PP:
@ Hester:
No, Jeff Crippen is a different person- he and Barbara lead the blog, but Megan C and I also adminster and write for it. On the “back end” of things we consider the “team” to be the four of us and we regularly communicate about the direction of the blog, etc.
I am not mentioned on the “about” page because I’m not comfortable with people contacting me directly (the other three all have their emails available) or exposing too much personal information.
But yes, had I realized I would have been on “the team” in the beginning I would not have posted under “Jeff” due to the confusion- alas, by the time that happened I was already well known to the regular commenters to pick a different handle.
Hope that clears it up 🙂
No one returned my call as far as i know. No messages, emails, etc. @ Muckraker:
@ Jeff:
Thanks. That clears a lot of things up.
Underneath this issue, as well as issues of repentant adulterers being restored quickly to ministry, child abusers etc is the tension between what we know secularly and are taught spiritually. On one hand, it is preached and folks desperately want to believe that once they trust in Jesus, all their sins are washed away, they are new creatures in Christ, that they can be healed etc. Yet in practice, there seems to be exceptions. No cures for pedophiles. Abusers and addicts that don’t get treatment for their issues likely to still harm or relapse. The gospel is a powerful promise to those who know their own demons, their terrible past sins and are told they can be washed white as snow, have new birth, live a completely new and different life. But then have to temper it with, your particular sin, disease is different. Quite a balancing act for pastors to deal with in ministering to the offenders and protecting the flock.
@ Hester:
Thanks for asking- I think we should probably add me to the “about” page anyway- I just fired off an email to the others 🙂
(Part of this is that it’s been an evolving relationship- they gradually pulled me in with very subtle tactics. I never meant to be a blogger!)
@ elastigirl:
That’s what I meant. 🙂 I only had a moment to comment.
@ Deb:
Of course not. 🙂
Dee,
I thought we broke the mold. We are probably one of the few Christian blogs that actually welcomes non-believers as well as those struggling with their faith.
My hubby was so sweet yesterday. He brought me a Hershey bar, so I enjoyed communion last evening… Sorry ya’ll weren’t here so we could break the chocolate together. 😉
This is NOT a scolding.
It appears we have two people commenting named Patti. It would be great (but not a requirement) if one of you would Change your handle next time you post so everyone can tell you apart.
Thanks
GBTC
Ducking back under the curtain now.
“Also, I do not know what the mold is here.”
Dee,
Chocolate is usually “molded”? :o)
PP,
SBC, Not Reformed, YEC/OEC not sure it matters in the scheme of things so not sure. Mutualist.
And your bio is ok EXCEPT you did not list your escatology. Now that could be a deal breaker! (Just kidding!!!)
thanks for your support in protecting children. It is something the church has to get real serious about. And congrats on #5!
Marge and Dee,
I think what you did here is one of the best things I have ever seen online. Putting up this essential information is a wonderful idea and I hope the entire CrossWay community learns about it, though they should have learned it from their church.
I also very much appreciate Wade Burleson’s way of handling pedophiles in the church he pastors. That sounds both wise and compassionate. It will make a distinction between repentant pedophiles who will subject themselves to that and unrepentant ones who won’t stick around for it.
Once Upon a Time wrote:
I’ve always taken that to mean my past sins when called before God. Not my secular crimes.
“Not to mention that, just like all the public ‘apologies’ we hear from CEO’s and public figures who do or say something bad, most of the public ‘repentance’ we hear is just BS. All it means is they got caught and now they claim they are sorry but the only thing they’re sorry for is that they got caught.”
This is a hot button issue for me. And this starts young. I have noticed kids/teens have learned to say this to get the pressure off but behavior does not change so they can flippantly say sorry and have no remorse for the same behavior over and over. My kids have learned they are expected to state what they are sorry for specifically and why it was wrong. I was thrilled to hear my daughters principal say she has had enough of the fake “I’m sorry”, too, and in a Christian school, no less. So she is implementing the same sort of process at the school for the constant refrains of “sorrys” with no behavior change.
@ Lynn:
To expand on this a bit. It is NOT a sin to be a pedophile. It IS a sin to act on it.
I have a sin of eating junk. (Trivial but I’m using it as an example.) Candy and such. My #1 defense is to not bring it home. If I don’t buy it I can’t eat it. With a pedophile they need to stay out of situations where they are alone with children.
Original post asked,
Is Mark Driscoll the pilot? 🙂 (Referring to this).
I’ve said this before on older threads, but a lot of Christians remain or behave very naive about these things.
They will allow known pedophiles or rapists to attend their churches, and in some cases, as a result, these guys have molested or raped people at the new church they attend.
Original post:
As I was saying on an older post, I see a lot of these issues as being inter-related.
A lot of Christians in America think being married makes a person immune from sexual sin, or above temptation.
We unmarried Christians (even though we are celibate), are assumed to be promiscuous, even though we are not.
Many preachers think a man (or woman) getting married makes them invincible to falling into fornication, online porn addiction, etc., or they think that married people are above raping or molesting people, when the numerous testimonies I see on Christian websites and television shows say otherwise.
Married Christians have just as many problems with sexual sins as unmarried ones (or maybe more, in some cases).
Original post:
Thank you!
Marriage also does not make anyone, Christian or not, immune from other types of sexual sin.
That Penn St. guy was married to a woman, and he still molested and raped lots of children.
Original post:
Yes, definitely. I think it’s doubly creepy though that many Christians automatically trust females they barely know with their children.
I’ve never been comfortable with kids, but any time I am around a new Christian person or a church, they almost immediately want me to baby sit, or work in the nursery, etc, and they barely know me.
From what I’ve read, males are more likely to molest a kid than females are (which is why police tell kids when they are lost in stores to seek out adult females not males), but still, it’s not wise for Christians to automatically assume they can or should trust each and every new female they meet.
I was at a web site a long time ago where one of the guys who had been molested at a young age wanted to make people broaden their terminology.
He was saying there are different terms depending on preferred age of targets by the molester.
I can’t remember which is which, but one group of molesters prefer to target early teen age kids, while the other group prefers kids under age ten or so.
(I can’t remember if “pedophile” is intended for people who prey on under age ten or over.)
This guy was very adamant that people not use the term “pedophile” to describe all these offenders, since it ignores other classes of victim. I can’t remember what the other term was – it may have been “pederasty”?
Original post:
Another inter-related topic…
Christians are no more immune from porn addiction,alcohol problems,etc than anyone else.
Nor are Christians immune from emotional or psychological health problems, such as depression, but there are Christians who deny it. They go so far as to tell Christians they aren’t “real”Christians if they have depression,don’t go see a psychologist, etc.
I know coming to faith in Christ has in part helped some addicts give up alcohol or drug addiction, but not for all, and the ones who it did help,the still struggled, had to see doctors, etc.
@ Lynn:
And not all sin is equal! To twist CS Lewis, some folks have the motto of “I’m as bad as you!” which means eating junk and raping a child are all one. Since I eat junk, I can’t say anything about the pedophile in my church!
These thoughts inspired by Jeff C http://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/what-about-bob-an-abusers-tactics-named-and-exposed-by-jeff-crippen/
Jeff C:’ “HOMICIDE, MAYBE, DIVORCE, NEVER!” (Exact quote from Baucham, followed by laughter in the congregation) I wonder how funny that joke would be in Ohio right now after the terrible and tragic shooting of Katherina Allen and her two daughters by her evil, wicked “husband”?’
commenter Bob:
‘Your quote here clearly illustrates that you’ve forgotten what God said:
– None are righteous, no, not one
– There is none who understands
– There is none who seeks after God
– There is none who does good, no, not one
Her evil, wicked husband? We are all evil, we all have deceitful hearts. We are all deserving of the righteous judgement of God. If you have ever so much as broken one of God’s commandments your judgement is the same as Katherina Allen’s husband.’
Bob, even any non-Christian understands that not all evil is alike! Some evil harms multitudes, some just a few, some just one’s self! Pedophilia, like homicide, usually falls in the multitudes category!
PP wrote:
I am every thing on you are on that list, except for complementarian and reformed.
I don’t know if I still think of myself as a Southern Baptist, but I was raised in SB churches in childhood.
I was raised to be a gender complementarian, but even as young as ten or so, the “man is the head of the household” stuff I was taught to believe did not match up the tone of the Bible I read (eg, in Christ all are equal) and the passages where Paul commended females for being teachers and apostles to men.
So far, I’ve been allowed to post here, even though I don’t agree 100% with every one’s opinions on every thing, so I think you will be too.
I have never been in a church with a known paedophile — so I can only guess what would happen, but certainly in this diocese no one is allowed to do anything with children (even fetch them a drink) without Safe Ministry Training, and everyone who does such training (2hr refresher course every 3 years) must submit a form for a police check. Seems common sense to me.
We did have a case a while ago of an older man who turned up and tried to get into 1×1 conversations with attractive young women and start making suggestive remarks. They complained to the minister, and the next week he took the man aside as soon as he turned up and said to the man that he was only allowed to come to church if he only approached young women when another man was present. The man screamed abuse, turned and left, which shows his real motivation.
If we have a chocolate cult going, may I join?
I don’t think I fit any moulds (note Aussie spelling) I am Anglican, ex-Calvinist, semi-charismatic and one of those bad women who preach. I’m passionate about abuse issues and social justice, and my greatest experience of spiritual abuse was in a house church.
Jeanette,
Everything’s fine here.
Thank you, Dee, for writing this informative post. Dee and Marge- you have my admiration for bringing this all to light. Safety for children is the top priority.
@ PP:
Hi PP, I affirm the doctrine of inerrancy and am an egalitarian. Although I disagree with complementarian doctrine, I regard the gender role debate in the same manner that Paul approached the question of eating “unclean” foods; I do not believe it is always prudent for a Christian to be an egalitarian, particularly when the decision to take up the doctrine is merely a hasty, reactionary choice. Hope you fit in!
I have worked with churches to set up policies and procedures to deal with sexual predation, whether adult to adult or adult to child or teen to child. And sometimes teen to teen. The largest group of predators are men in the 30s who target adult teens (17-20 yo). A good policy includes surveillance procedures in the young adult population to see who is hanging out with whom, especially if the age difference is more than ten percent of the age of the older person, and to note serial relationships that seem to be followed by one member dropping out as the relationship ends and another begins.
I believe that the church should have a published notice that says essentially: If you struggle with sexual sin or attractions to those too weak or young, or too old (! it happens), you are welcome to be here IF and ONLY IF, you alert the church staff and agree to certain terms and conditions that will help you to limit your temptations and protect those who may become victims of your sin or compulsion. Failing to do so is a sin that disqualifies you from being welcome here and will result in reporting to all appropriate authorities.
The thing I like most about this blog is that people of all beliefs are welcomed and respected. The interaction among different commenters truly makes this site stand out from the rest. Before reading this blog I had no idea the many differences between Calvinism and reformed theology, YEC and old earth, complementarians and egalitarians, etc… All I knew is that I wanted to learn about what the heck was dragging down my friends who were “drinking the koolaid” of Al Mohler and his seminary. I wanted to learn from those who were brave enough to confront the institutions that were destroying my classmates. Dee and Deb and all of the commenters here have forced me to re-examine why I believe what I believe and have shown me how to stand up to the nonsense that my friends have fallen for. I think the ultimate message of this blog is that every single person has value and is worthy of love and respect. Anything less will not be tolerated, no matter how famous you are. From that love and respect flows the overwhelming desire to stand up for the abused and neglected.
As far as our cult’s “communion” is concerned, I’d like to nominate my dried blueberry white chocolate chip pecan cookies for the wafer. There are 4.5 dozen of those cookies cooling on my counter right now and boy do they smell good! Now if only I weren’t so allergic to the gluten and nuts…
@ An Attorney:
Are you suggesting that a 36 year old man going out with a 29 year old woman is predatory (as that is a 7 year differences far more than the 3.6 years a 10% rule specifies)?
I totally understand not wanting a 38 year old guy to be hitting on 17 year old high school students, but 10% seems to be a pretty restrictive guideline.
@ Jeff S:
it is only the monitoring to which that is applied, and then to consider what happens after, like he stays and she disappears, he immediately is starting another relationship. Those flagged should be check out. Many will be innocent, others not. Some have used a sliding scale relative to age, but we are not talking about action on the observation, just making the observations and being aware.
@ Daisy:
“I think it’s doubly creepy though that many Christians automatically trust females they barely know with their children.”
Wasn’t it James Dobson who recommended that one should never hire a male babysitter because of all the “sexual things” that might happen? Clearly female pedophiles are not on his radar.
@ An Attorney:
That’s fair, I must admit I’m a terrible judge of age, so I live in constant fear that if I show any interest in a girl at church she might end up being too young and I’ll be “that creepy guy”. I drive myself nuts worrying about how people perceive me in the church. At least online you get to see ages up front.
Hey PP,
I believe much the same as you, and I’ve been welcomed. I haven’t been on much in the past week or so because, hey, life is incredibly busy at the moment.
I am incredibly grateful to Dee and Deb for their ministry here. Not only for posts like this, but just for helping me see instances where I knew something wasn’t quite right, but had a very hard time putting my finger on just what was wrong in various Christian ministries.
And quite frankly, I love reading posts by others, Christians and non Christians alike that challenge my beliefs and my “Christian” thinking.
Also, a couple of weeks ago, a sweet lady on here posted an article about proof of a common ancestor in evolution and asked me to read it. I skimmed it, and meant to tag it so I could read it when I had more time. Now I can’t find it nor can I remember the thread where she posted the link, nor can I remember her name. If anyone can help, I’d be grateful.
Daisy wrote:
“Pedophiles” target pre-pubescent children.
“Ehebephiles” target post-puberty but still under legal age “jail bait”.
@ kindakrunchy:
I believe it was Deb Baker. Sorry, I don’t remember which thread it was on.
Wow GBTC! You really get around.
GBTC,
You never cease to amaze me. I remember that day when you were showing Dee and me how to write and publish a post. It was mind boggling to me, and I never though I’d figure it out. That was about four years ago, and we’ve come a long way since then.
Jeannette,
I have been having trouble with Firefox tonight and cannot seem to access it. I’ve been using Safari.
@ Bridget:
Thank you!!
@ Mandy:
Yes!!!
I had never even heard of most of these people. The only one I had even heard of was Mark Driscol, and I have a friend that thought he was great. This blog made so many things fall into place for me.
Hey D&D!
I started a blog! …Well, more like the embryo/shell of a blog right now. I figured it would be unfair to hijack your blog to post my critiques of all those Vision Forum CDs, so I started my own. (I’m still planning on doing guest post or two on the homeschool convention though.) I now own a little tiny piece of the internet! ; )
Keep an eye on it as I hope to start posting soon, but there’s nothing there yet.
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com
Re: TWW “communion wafers”
If Mandy can eat gluten free oats, I nominate my hypoallergenic granola bar recipe with gf oats and rice crispies and dried blueberries. I’ll post the recipe in the cooking page here when baby gives me some time. I can’t even have the gf communion wafers at church now because they have soy and corn. Aargh!
Bridget wrote:
It might have been this conversation: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/02/09/breaking-news-historical-on-line-sgm-petition-calling-out-silent-leaders/
I moved the nerd/technical discussion of Jeannette Altes’ problems out of the blog. We’re discussing via email. It didn’t really apply to the topic in any way.
No conspiracy here.
I withdrew my church membership yesterday as a result of this email from one my pastors:
As you may have noticed, I have removed several of your past posts from the XXX Friends Facebook page. The posts removed deal with the crisis at Sovereign Grace. I sympathize with your concern for these important issues, however, I feel that the posts deal with the issues at play in ways that are unhelpful for our congregation and the members of the Facebook group.
Thank you for your understanding, please feel free to speak with me about any concerns you have!
Your brother in Christ,
XXX
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jVKLX1bgEkE
TW
Got your email. No worries. I’ll write later.@ TW:
Marge is one of the boldest folks I know. She will go head on with anyone, no holding back. Glad to know both our families have left there.
Kristin wrote:
This may be the greatest comment in the history of blogdom.
GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:
Don’t listen to him! It is a conspiracy, I saw it right away! Those were coded messages explaining how the names “Dee” and “Deb” result in the number 666, I’ll bet my tin foil hat on it. 🙂
Tw,
Your pastor has proved he’s a coward. He wants to play the fake Christianity that’s so popular these days.
You are right to leave. You have to wonder what else he is censoring or hiding.
TW wrote:
TW: You have my admiration for your courage. Your pastor is obviously afraid of the words of John 8:32 “and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”
PP – I am also young earth, inerrant in my beliefs on the Bible, and you should be welcome here.
Dee – THANK YOU for this post! I hope it makes it’s virtual way around the entire world of the Christian church here in America. I think people would do well to look at the (secular) website called Darkness to Light which deals with the issue of child sexual abuse. I SEARCHED the internet for DAYS to find appropriate (Christian) material on sexual abuse to teach my son…. I FOUND NONE….none…..nothing to teach my kid. THIS IS TRAGIC! The secular world really gets this issue….they teach it really well…they punish it when they find it…and the Christian world just rolls over and plays dead, and in the meantime allow some people in the church to have access to children. I do have to say, though, that I would like someone to find the statistics on female vs. male child sexual abuse…in my thinking, it is pretty much a male problem. I could be wrong, but in my area there are hundreds of male abusers, and I recall seeing only one female, so my radar is really up with the males. In another issue, I don’t recall either any female perpetrators of mass killings here in the USA – I only can recall males that have done so, so I think it’s wise to consider that it is apparent more males than females victimize. Not politically correct, but perhaps statistically accurate.
The whole SGM debacle will likely change the policies of a number of churches. To anyone who is legally exposling what happened to them – you are also my hero. Children will be safter because of your voice.
I have not commented here before but this post caught me eye due to my nine years at Crossway. In recent years I have found myself agreeing with them less and less, due to my disillusionment with their theology and the general overconfidence of the entire neoCalvinist subculture (not just CCW and SGM). Plus, the young earth creationism and love of John Piper and Mark Driscoll doesn’t help. It goes deeper than whatever CJ did, but I’ll stop there.
But what I will say is I have never felt my kids were in danger. Maybe this incident should cause me to doubt that, but the security has seemed good for a long time. I don’t know why they allegedly did not inform the children’s ministry and security teams of this person, when they have informed the church of people’s sin when doing church discipline (to be fair, they don’t broadcast every sin, just when they get to the point of excommunication, but I do remember the drunkenness one Marge mentioned). I don’t know Mickey very well, but the ones I do know have never struck me as dishonest or uncaring. Whether or not their decisions are correct, that we can debate. And when they or SGM make wrong decisions, we can discuss the reasons for the wrong decision. The one thing I will say in their defense is that at least they do seem to have good hearts.
@ justabeliever~
Don’t know how old your child is…but our family is going through these videos on abuse with out 14 year old. We just finished the first one–it is very good.
http://vimeo.com/58304996
PP wrote:
Hi PP! I am a homeschooling mom, pregnant with her sixth child, who attends a Reformed church, and not quite sure about young-vs. old earth. I do not quite fit the mold here, either, but I always know that my comments are welcome, regardless. Welcome!
Here is an excellent article questioning the “do not question authority” mantra in churches:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/03/what-is-authority/
@ Matt Redmomd:
Read your post Matt. Short and to the point. It is exactly how I feel righ now about a certain corner of Christendom. Their orthodoxy is lifeless. Thank you.
Kristen, thanks for the link. Olson hit one out of the ballpark.
Jeff S wrote:
LOL! Are you asking permission to date my daughter? Assuming you’re the 36 (or similar) year old man, you’re OK by me! She’s tried the local mega-church’s singles group and found most of the men to be my age…Same with Christian dating site. 🙁 She’s not yet tried Dates Arranged By Patriarch…. Predator Warning— she recently had coffee with a 20 year old man. She’s a chip off the old block, since I calculate next year I’ll FINALLY meet the 10% rule to date her mother!
Hester wrote:
Hester- I have been reviewing some books personally by request of a member from my former church. I don’t really want to start my own blog, I wonder if you would be interested in my blogging about some of these books and the issues they have raised. I also would like a place to put my review and recommendations about books to be used for women’s bible studies. Interested?
I am a recovering alcoholic. I don’t put myself in situations to be tempted. I don’t go to bars, I avoid getting even soft drinks at weddings and other functions where there is an open bar. I can’t stress this enough. If you have a problem you need to be removed from temptation.
I am VERY transparent about my problem. I tell people, I’m very honest and open about it. If I have a problem with something, best thing to do is not be around it, and have people “shield” you from it.
I wish this church would be transparent.
@ Dave A A:
Haha- thanks- If I ever meet your daughter then I know I don’t have to worry! :). (I just turned 37)
The rule I’ve heard for creepiness is taking half your age and adding 7 years. Anything below that is “creepy”.
That formula would work really well for me if I was any good judge of ages. On girl at my church who I thought was late 20s turned out to be early 20s, and one I thought was mid 20s was mid 30s.
@ Jeff S.:
“The rule I’ve heard for creepiness is taking half your age and adding 7 years. Anything below that is ‘creepy.'”
Good rule, I’d say. My ex-pastor’s youngest daughter recently got married at 18 to a 38-year-old divorcee with a 12-year-old daughter. According to the above rule, his lowest non-creepy dating age would be 26. So yeah, definitely creepy (and the 12-year-old daughter certainly doesn’t help). Esp. since they had been dating before that, when she was 17 and thus still “illegal” if anything had happened. (CT age of consent is 16, but there’s a two year age gap limit until age 18 – i.e., it’s okay legally if you’re 17 and you sleep with your 18-year-old boyfriend, but if you sleep with your 25-year-old boyfriend you’re going to have a problem.)
People always think I’m older than I am. When I was 15 people consistently thought I was 18 and now they think I’m around 25 (I’m 22). I’m not tall (in fact I’m kind of hobbit-ish) so maybe I’m aging prematurely… : )
@ Velvet:
Wow, an offer for guest posts and I’ve had a blog for less than 24 hours… : ) I might need some time to think about it given that I haven’t even put up anything more than an intro post yet. What books did you review?
Thank God for Boz Tchividjian and the work he is doing, and others who have taken the lead in helping us figure out what to do with these issues.
Crossway is not alone in this problem. (Not minimizing or normalizing here — it’s horrific no matter how common it is.) Most churches and church organizations do NOT have policies in place to deal with convicted sex offenders, so when the time comes that they are faced with one, they’re in uncharted waters. And they aren’t educated about pedophilia and crafty perp behavior. They are naive. I believe that the incidence of convicted sex offenders in churches is very common. What is uncommon is finding a church that has a strict policy in place for protecting them from further temptation, providing counseling for them, and most importantly, protecting children from harm. He mentioned that leaders should know where to send a person for counseling and treatment when they come to them and say, “Hey, I’ve got a problem — I’m attracted to children.”
An old friend of ours,a former PCA pastor, runs a child protection organization in Georgia. He posted on my fb wall that “…(PCA) will not engage in a dialogue about this issue. I have made repeated attempts to have this issue addressed and all I get is silence…” So sad.
Mr. T — I’ll refer to Boz Tchividjian as Mr. T because his last name is too long and too hard to type, and I’m not comfortable referring to him as Boz because I don’t know him — and I do not receive any kickbacks from sale of his books if indeed he has any! Mr. T’s information shows that churches, as a rule, have never addressed this situation or put policies into place. Every church needs to come up with a policy and let it be known to the congregation before anything ever happens. Policies that are in place and made public also discourage trolling predators — they’ll go elsewhere to look for victims, where people are still naive and trusting.
Most pedophiles do not look like the sleazy guy hiding in the bushes. Mr. T makes the point (I am loosely quoting here) that people are often shocked because predators are usually very likable people; but he stresses that likability is not the same thing as trustworthiness. Juries are often lenient because these guys likable, while the victim may be nowhere near so polished, may exhibit bad behavior, etc.
Convicted perps may come to a church and admit to having been in prison — but they will not tell the whole story — they may say that they went to prison for getting into a bar fight before they were saved, etc. The element of truth in their confession makes them credible. And most Christians are very quick to overlook anything that is purported to have occurred prior to conversion. We seem to have some heebie-jeebie idea that becoming Christian cures every vice. I used to think this way, too — and then I realized, hey, I still crave chocolate. Why would I think that someone with other cravings is somehow delivered when I am not? How I wish sanctification was instantaneous; our sins are forgiven, but we still struggle with the flesh.
He advised that if a convicted perp tells about prison time, etc., to not only look at the conviction record, but to ask for the court records/transcripts. Often (as in a high-profile case at CLC) there is a plea bargain, and the perp confesses to a lesser crime, such as battery. If a convicted offender is indeed repentant, he/she will be willing to provide such documentation and abide by the policies of the church and the directives of the court. If they are not willing, this may be a signal that they are still hoping to use the church for a way to gain access to children.
Many court records can easily be obtained on the internet these days. (www.pacer.gov) If a person is in treatment for pedophilia, ask to talk with his counselors. Another consideration is the directive of the court. For example, it may be that he is not allowed within 500 feet of children, and the church needs to know and abide by these conditions.
Mr. T said his particular preference is to NOT allow perps to attend regular worship services. He said they should be included in special care groups or other worship activities where children are not present, and if they are sincere about repentance, they will accept that. They should be provided with counseling services or programs that help them deal with their problem. They know that being excluded from worship where children are present is a consequence they themselves put into motion when they chose to offend.
But he also said that each church should craft policies that work for their own situations, which I can understand. A policy for a mega-church with a million programs and services in place would be different from that of the small church on the corner with nothing more than Sunday school and and 11:00 service. So, if a church makes it allowable for an offender to attend general services, and if a perp is in a building where there are kids present, ONE person should be assigned to be with him at all times. He said not to assign the whole care group to watch out, because then everybody assumes that someone else is watching, so it ends up that nobody is watching.
Here is a link to the videos: http://vimeo.com/58304996
At this point, Crossway and every church who knows they have a convicted pedophile in attendance needs to contact an organization such as Tchividjian’s GRACE (A Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment) or Adults Protecting Children — there are bound to be more — and find out what they need to do. They can help — and it doesn’t matter if you’re reformed, calvinista, Baptist, Armenian, complementarian, old-earth, young earth, or an evolutionist…every single pastor, leader, church, and member needs to know this stuff. We can talk about policies all day long, but if you don’t know what a policy looks like, some practical help is needed. These guys can help.
I personally had a conversation with my pastor about this last week. He’s a great guy. But he has no clue, and was very uncomfortable. Sigh.
“The rule I’ve heard for creepiness is taking half your age and adding 7 years. Anything below that is “creepy”.”
Oh dear. This means my dad was “creepy”. I guess my parents excuse (his first wife died of cancer at 28)
I guess their excuse was that there was a war on (WW2)?
My mom became his secretary after college (politically incorrect!) and over the course of two years he was talked into it by his partners to ask her to a club dance. (sexual harassment?). They were married 16 mos later.
Gee, in light of today’s church standards for dating, I would not be here. BTw: My dad was 19 years older than my mom but she made a great choice. He was her biggest cheerleader and they were crazy about each other until the day he died.
@Hester
Right now I am reviewing I Wish Someone Would Explain Hebrews to Me by Stuart Olyott. (This man is listed as part of the Gospel Coalition, so immediately my hackles went up.). Someone in my former church gave it to me to ask what I thought about it. Someone else in my former church knows the guy personally. I jumped right to the last chapters on Hebrews 13 because this other guy was arguing about what constitutes spiritual authority. I’m skipping to Hebrews 11 next, because I was reading a review on the miniseries The Bible, and the reviewer mentioned a good thought that I wanted to capture.
This other guy had also given me a book about music in the church. I couldn’t get past the first couple of pages, because it was full of polemics, not actual scholarship or experience or even scripture. And these guys get paid for this? Man, if I had a support system, I’d be really prolific.
I also have been looking for a place to record my observations about women’s book studies. We are doing a Beth Moore study again this year. All the reviews on line are saying that stuff by her, Mary Kassian, and Nancy Leigh DeMoss are good models for studying scripture. I say BLEAGCH! (How do I spell the sound of sickness?). Most Amazon reviews are not very good.
I started a blog a couple of years ago while i was unemployed, and I intended on reviewing business books, and that i would have a reference to something current i was doing. But I got too bogged down, and I couldn’t keep it up to date.
I’d like to see reviews of books that real people living in the real world write. I’m sick of the black and white thinking of having to take a side or to be responsible for something steady. I’d even review secular books if I have read them, or suggest other resources.
@ Anonymous:
FWIW, the 1/2 + 7 “rule” I first saw in a secular comic strip (though they didn’t originate it, I’m sure), so definitely NOT a “church rule”- just taking the temperature of cultural norms, I think. And cultural norms do change over time.
Nickname wrote:
Christian Monist has written on that subject (the idea that becoming Christian instantly cures every vice) a lot on his blog. He claims the idea comes from a Gnostic Dualism of a hard dividing line between Spiritual and Physical and the Spiritual always trumps the Physical.
@ Randall:
Hi Randall
Welcome to TWW.
Here is the problem with pedophiles. They are manipulative. They can appear like they are awesome people. That is how they get into groups and become trusted.
Feeling your kids are not in danger and your kids actually being sage, may be two different things. How many people are startled when a neighbor gets arrested as a serial killer and say “But he was such a nice neighbor. He always leant me his tools.”
Also, lots of people have good hearts but having a good heart is no excuse for overlooking the problems inherent in child molestation. In fact, I would say the truly “good-hearted ” people are the ones who put the safety of children above image.
Jeff S wrote:
I first heard it in Autobiography of Malcolm X where Malcolm X mentions it in passing as “the ideal age for a wife”.
Regarding cultural norms, in the 19th Century it was common for a husband to be up to a full generation older than the wife. Since a woman’s status was determined by her husband’s status, women tended to “marry up” to an older man who had established himself.
When I was growing up Post-WW2, the norms had flipped to the complete opposite — you were supposed to marry someone almost exactly the same age as you (often upon high school graduation); the bride could be NO older than the groom and a maximum of three years younger.
dee wrote:
And church is an environment of trust and acceptance — at least if you behave the accepted/right way to the other adults. And pastors/priests/elders have additional prestige and authority which translates to additional positions of trust.
And successful pedophiles, like successful serial rapists, serial killers, and sociopaths in general are masters at camouflaging what they are. If they weren’t, they’d have been found out and/or caught long ago.
“For Satan himself can change himself to appear as an Angel of Light.”
VelvetVoice wrote:
There are probably a lot fewer of them. When you have a job and a life, it cuts into your writing time. Kind of like big name fanboys or big name Netizens — when you don’t have a life, you can indulge your obsession or stay online self-promoting 24/7/365 without letup.
Anonymous wrote:
And if your mom & dad had done that today instead of post-WW2, he’d be up on charges.
Now you know why Third World mail-order brides got so popular.
Here is what I think, though sadly… I think that pedophiles will conceal their issues (especially in the case where there is no record of conviction) because if the person does not want the extreme accountability required, then they wouldn’t tell people and it would be a waiting game to see when, or if, they get caught. I think this entire solution is dependent upon the person confessing or available legal records. Which, essentially, means that parents are going to have to be extremely diligent and protective of their kids around other adults. People feel a little too safe at church, for my own personal comfort. Like some of the other women here, I’ve been allowed and asked to babysit by strangers and I was highly offended. I’m like is your date night worth your kid being potentially abused. YOu dont know me from jump street, are you crazy? I’d look at them and give them the eye, like “you should be ashamed”. No, women aren’t usually pedophiles, but there are women out here who will abuse a kid, especially physically.
I wonder, though, if or when churches begin implementing such protocols, that pedophiles will attend church at all? Or will they go from church to church, hiding about. I’m really rambling because I’m confused as to a solution. This seems really hard to resolve.
@ Velvet:
What was the name of that book about music in the church? Bad worship theology is always intriguing to church musicians. ; )
There’s a book on my shelf that I was forced to read for school called What If Jesus Had Never Been Born? by D. James Kennedy (noted almost-Reconstructionist). The music and art chapter was so inaccurate that even 13-year-old me, with only beginning music history training, could see it was complete crap and it made me really mad. I can’t imagine how many inaccuracies/misrepresentations/outright fibs were in the other chapters that I wasn’t old enough to catch. I’m thinking about this being one of the things I review.
(His whole argument in the music chapter was basically:
1. Greece and Rome BAAAAAAD and IMMORAL! So BAAAAAD that all their music was destroyed by God as JUDGMENT and we haven’t found any of it! (Fact: completely false. Archaeologists have plenty of ancient Greek and Roman music and it’s been recorded on reconstructed instruments.)
2. Music between the ancient world and the Baroque period does not exist.
3. All music between 1600 and 1900 GOOOOOOD!!!
4. All music after 1900 BAAAAAAAD because DISSONANCE! I don’t like it so NEITHER DOES GOD!)
@ Trina:
Trina, I wrote about this sometime last week — can’t remember which blog. The confessed/convicted/known pedophiles can be identified and policed. It’s the unknowns, the guys who haven’t been caught yet, who are the real problem. Child safety procedures have been in place in many churches, yet many offenses have occurred off-premises because offenders are wily, crafty, and manipulative. And they are likable. And yes, they will go from church to church, looking for an environment with the easiest obstacles to get around. They look for the families who need an Uncle Joe around. They look for kids who they believe will not resist.
Pedophiles know exactly how to get around all the safeguards. They know how to build relationships — they know how to build trust with families. They often befriend the parents first, then they become trusted ol’ Uncle Joe, sure, he can pick up the kids from school and take them to the movies! What a servant heart he has — he’s the guy who sees a single mom juggling & struggling with three kids, and offers to take them to soccer practice every Tuesday night. Many of the Penn State victims were from disadvantaged households, and their parents were thrilled to have some help.
Bottom line: parents must be hyper-vigilant. If there’s an ol’ Uncle Joe in your life who seems too good to be true, he probably isn’t trustworthy. Even if he is trustworthy, don’t let your guard down to find out for sure.
I’m currently writing the story of our friendship with an Uncle Joe, who turned out to be a convicted, diagnosed pedophile. He was released from prison in ’85; started attending our church in ’89, and was arrested in ’95 for a molestation of a church child that occurred in ’93. So, in the 10 years that he was moving about freely in society, is it possible that there were no other victims during that time? Remotely possible, if you were born in the dark last night, but not probable. These incidents pre-dated widespread internet use and the sex-offender registry, so we had no easy way of fact-finding. Was he effeminate? Not in the least. An athlete — went to college on an athletic scholarship. Was a teacher and coach, but said he changed to house-painting because he could make more money — yeah? Oh, if we’d only known then what we know now. The statistics on the number of victims per offender are staggering. And many of them keep up with names & numbers; notches on their belt. Mr. T refers to one offender he interviewed who had over 1250 victims.
In the first video, there’s a clip of an interview with a guy, a pastor, who was arrested. His comments are all about how his life was ruined by the victim. Not one word about how the victim was affected. At first, he denies — and a few minutes later, admits that he molested over 50 innocent, trusting victims. He seemed like such a Caspar Milquetoast kind of guy, maybe a little on the sissy side, and hey, everybody’s not a jock — but oh, so nice.
I am livid at myself for having been suckered in by an Uncle Joe, and will do everything in my power to help other people not fall into the same trap. I knew all the signs of predators, but dismissed them because he said he was a Christian and could spout Bible verses left and right. Do not be fooled. An Uncle Joe who is trustworthy wouldn’t expect you to trust him. He’d be as concerned about your kids’ safety as you are.
Okay, @ Nickname:
Why does this scare me because I just heard of a situation of a young guy moving in with a family to help with the kids. its not that I dont think anything about this guy. But I thought it was kind of unwise. Because it’s the exact situation you named above. It is unfair of me to think a man suspect because he is moving in with a family to help care for the kids (a single parent who is also male).
But I think, too, that parents have a responsibility of being very frank and age appropriate with their kids, but getting the message across very plainly and seriously.
My mom was diligent about that stuff when we were kids and I was never EVER afraid to tell her someone did somethign wrong because she wasn’t playing when she said she’d handle it. So someone did try… And I told my mom. And she went apeshit. And let me tell you, ALL they did was try. They didn’t even get anywhere. But my mom wasn’t having that. End of story.
Hester wrote:
Haha, that made my day to read…yeah…that is a familiar school of thought–“nothing ever happened in the world until the Reformation”…
@An Attorney –
I would be particularly interested in what church policies you recommend w/ regard to offenders who are minors.
While in most states (I’ve learned CA is an exception) there are no legal issues w/ posting the identities of individuals on the sex offender registry, I am concerned about possible liability that the 501(c)3 could incur if they inform members / staff / volunteers about an accusation of pedophilia against an adult who has not been convicted of the crime or about an alleged juvenile offender who either has not been convicted or whose record is sealed.
An Attorney wrote:
@ Dave A A:
yes, and I was 31 when I met my wife of 34 years, and she was almost but not quite 23. And I easily could have taken advantage of her. The issue is being alert to a pattern, and the pattern is more than age difference, it is a serial thing where the female drops out or leaves the group, and the guy goes on to the next relationship with another fairly quickly. It suggests that one was hurt or something and the other not, so paying a little attention may be a way to prevent a problem. I was not suggesting giving the guy the third degree.
An Attorney wrote:
Definitely. I had a high school classmate who was like this. He would go after the naive girls who were so flattered that a boy liked them that they’d just go along with it. The relationships lasted 3-4 weeks, with abundance of love notes, flowers, etc. Then it would end and suddenly he had a new girlfriend. And to think I was one of his targets. Praise God even at 15 I knew better to even flirt with that creep when he came knocking.
@ EMSoliDeoGloria:
There are many resources regarding the appropriate policy. I suggest checking several. But here are a few of my recommendations depending on the facilities and staffing.
Glass walls or large windows into rooms where children and youth are going to be. Minimum of two or three adults, mixed sex, not married to each other, in classes of children and youth. Open bathrooms in toddler and preschool areas (walls high enough to protect from children looking in on the user, but short enough for an adult to look over). Video observation of child and youth areas, recorded and reveiwed later if not live. Full screening of all workers and volunteers.
If known problem persons are in the church, restricting them from the children and youth areas, especially restrooms in those areas. Post pictures of known problem persons, near the entry to the children and youth areas, and make all workers aware that those persons are restricted from those areas and are to be reported. Buddy system, 2 or 3 adults assigned to each problem person and to be aware of where they are at all times — check up on the buddies to be sure that they are keeping track.
The only quote I ever use from Ronald Reagan: “Trust but verify”. Trust does not mean that you let anyone do anything, but that you put limits and systems in place to see that the limits are being observed and enforced.
Never, never assume that anyone is perfectly safe. Pastors have been convicted of child sexual abuse; police officers have been convicted of child sexual abuse; prosecutors have been convicted of child sexual abuse; school counselors, teachers and principals have been convicted of child sexual abuse; and even mothers have been convicted of child sexual abuse, usually facilitating the man in her life.
Hester wrote:
Ah, Hester. I’ve heard this crappy argument just so many times. I was a composition major undergrad and music history M.Mus, and have written a fair bit of dissonant music in my time 🙂 AND I’m a christian!! I once had a church lady tell me, “My dear, ONLY write BEAUTIFUL music!” Sorryt but here are just too many aspects of human-ness and existence that demand dissonance. And many, many examples of pre-20th century music that contain it!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
““Ehebephiles” target post-puberty but still under legal age “jail bait”.”
That term doesn’t look familiar to me. I wish I could remember what the guy on the other site said.
He made some good points about why people should be careful about not using the term pedophile as a catch-all to describe all targets under the age of 18.
I can’t remember all the why’s and how’s of it, or all the terms used, but he had some good observations.
@ Jeff S
The age thing is a huge pet peeve of mine.
I’ve never felt comfortable with guys more than five years older than me flirting with me, but it happens all the time.
When I was in my 20s, I did not appreciate men in their 40s (and up) hitting on me, especially.
Another annoyance is that once you hit late 30s, most single men, including Christian ones, only want to date women in their 20s and early 30s, and no, I don’t think “having babies” is the reason (as in, “Well women in those ages are fertile, maybe they want to start a family…”).
I suspect it’s largely shallowness and younger women tend to be more naive and easier to control.
But whatever, you have a lot of perfectly nice and attractive Christian women age 35 and up still unmarried because when the men of their age range decide to marry, they always want the women ages 20 – 35.
More annoying still, is even now in my 40s, even though on the dating sites on which I am a member, I state “don’t send me matches over X years my age,” and even though I say that on my profile (“please don’t contact me if you are over X years old”), I still get hit on consistently white haired 60 and 70 year old men.
Honestly, why do these old guys (old enough to be my grandpa) think a chick 10 – 20 – 30 yrs younger than them would want to date them?
Some of them are obviously 70+ years old but on their profiles, they lie and say the are 35 or 45.
Men -all of them,Christian ones too- need to date and pursue women who are around their age, instead of chasing after gals ten, 20, 30 years their junior.
@ justabeliever:
Males may molest and kill and higher rates than females (I assume), but it doesn’t mean females never do.
In the United States, we’ve had what seems like a million news stories in the past ten years of adult female teachers who have sex with their underage male students (a few stories were of female adults and female underage students).
Here’s a list of female offenders:
The big list: Female teachers with students -“Most comprehensive account on Internet of women predators on campus”
When it comes to other issues, women can be just as bad or worse than men, like bullying or harassment in the workplace. Female bosses tend to target female co workers for harassment 80% of the time.
Why Women Are The Worst Kind of Bullies – (female on female bullying on the job)
I (I’m a female) was bullied by more females more often in junior high than I was by males.
Females tend to be more cruel than guys, more catty, and backhanded (partly because they are socialized to avoid direct confrontation, so they take their aggression underground, they are less obvious about it).
I think a lot of this unwillingness to think of women as being violent or abusive is rooted in John Piper-ish fondness for traditional gender roles, females are thought of as always being sugar and spice and nurturing, men are considered violent, etc.
@ Nickname:
That was a lot of good information.
I am not a parent, but, having once been a kid with a committed Christian (yet codependent) mother, one thing I can say from my experience that might help is if Christian parents tell their kids it’s all right to stand up to adults and tell an adult “no.”
Your kid has a right to have boundaries, even around adults.
Frequently, Christian parents (especially mothers with daughters) teach them to be too obedient, too agreeable, to always go along to get along, don’t rock the boat, don’t hurt anyone’s feelings no matter what, the word “no” is a dirty (selfish) word, etc.
I love my Mom (she’s deceased now), but it’s a minor miracle I was never raped or molested growing up or in my 20s, considering how she raised me to think that being a good little Christian girl / woman meant allowing yourself to be used by people, not standing up to people, it was wrong or selfish to defend yourself, or to say “no” to people, and so on.
I was raised that a female Christian does not, or should not, have boundaries, and I see a lot of other Christian females who were raised the same way.
I realize if you are a Christian parent you don’t want to raise a selfish, bratty, rude son or daughter- but- please don’t raise them to be a too-compliant, passive, doormat type of person, because those sorts of kids (and adults) are easy pickings for predators, or people who want to exploit them (and not just sexually, but in other ways).
Your son/daughter need to know it’s not selfish or wrong to disagree with adults and tell them “no.”
Don’t obsess over hurting someone’s feelings. A lot of adult women have been raped because of this…
Their gut told them the guy on the stairwell meant them harm, but they were raised that “nice girls” aren’t rude, not even to strange men who seem to pose a threat, and instead of turning on their heel when their gut told them “something is off, you should leave NOW”, they got raped.
I’ve read excerpts from the book “The Gift of Fear,” where the author discusses how this cripples women, this teaching and conditioning of girls and women that being perceived as warm and nice is more important than anything, even their safety, because it puts their lives in danger.
But I see Christian people like John Piper who keep teaching that females need to be like this (“sugar and spice,” passive in behavior), this gender role business that women should always be kind and lovey and allow other people to abuse them with no protests, because it’s supposedly so Christian, loving, and “feminine.”
@ Hippimama:
“I once had a church lady tell me, ‘My dear, ONLY write BEAUTIFUL music!’ Sorry but here are just too many aspects of human-ness and existence that demand dissonance. And many, many examples of pre-20th century music that contain it!”
The dictum as I heard it was “Art [all art, incl. music, painting, etc.] should be beautiful and useful.” How a painting is “useful” in the normal, practical sense (like a blender or a car) is beyond me. She may have meant as a teaching tool, but that essentially limits art to only theologically acceptable, fits-neatly-in-box “lessons,” which is contrary to the entire point of art. This attitude is the main reason why most “Christian” art is so bad.
Beauty, of course, is largely in the eye of the beholder…though none of the folks who use arguments like the above will admit that. They throw out Philippians 4:8 as the “Biblical standard” for beauty as if that solves the problem but there a lot of things not covered under that list. Plus, woodenly interpreted it also eliminates teaching by negative example (i.e., cautionary tales), which goes against even how the Bible is written. And how abstract art is not good, noble, praiseworthy, etc., simply because it is not a picture “of” something, I will never understand.
The dumbest part about the dissonance argument is that, from a music theory perspective, dissonance is essential to keep “normal” music moving. If there were no dissonance, we would feel no sense of resolution at the end of a piece/phrase. Bach (their hero) used it all the time. It wasn’t just invented by atonal/serialist composers circa 1900 as they usually imply/claim.
What it really comes down to, with anti-dissonance Christians, is that they don’t like the way the music sounds (though they’ve never been taught how to listen to it correctly) and they don’t understand it…so they say it’s “ungodly.” Stravinsky, Bartok and Philip Glass seem to be their favorite targets.
Daisy wrote:
i.e. The type of Winsome Womanhood/Godly Girlhood preached by Complementarian Control Freaks.
@ Daisy:
“He made some good points about why people should be careful about not using the term pedophile as a catch-all to describe all targets under the age of 18.”
True, pedophile technically refers only to attraction to prepubescent children. Not sure what the term is for post-pubescent attraction.
The guy I knew who had problems in this area exchanged erotic letters with a 13-year-old girl in his apartment complex and was addicted to porn. He was also never prosecuted for anything. I don’t know if it was adult porn or child porn so I don’t know if he was a “true” pedophile or not.
@ dee:
The BTK serial killer (Rader) attended a church weekly. I remember that from seeing a TV special about him.
He was caught because police were able to track his BTK killer letters to them through his church computer. (Yes, he was using his church’s computer to write the taunting letters to police). BTK’s Wiki Page
He was married, too. According to the wiki page,
Daisy wrote:
When it comes to violence or dominance games, women tend to be more indirect and passive-aggressive than men. This probably originated in women tending to be smaller and less physically strong than men; in a violent male/female confrontation that goes to physical violence, the man is more likely to win. So women become aggressive from a one-down position, where he strategy and tactics are different — “A man will shoot you in the face, a woman will poison your food behind your back.”
And the Traditional Gender Roles described above — Sugar and Spice and everything Nice Nice Nice — push women into becoming even more indirect and sneaky in their aggression and dominance games. Which leads men to distrust women even more, adding self-defense as a reason for male supremacy.
Hester wrote:
EHEBEPHILE. Commonly called “hot for jail bait.”
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG, one of several reasons I am against the gender complementarian teachings is that it holds a woman back in life (it sure did with me), and it can and does put women in danger, danger of being raped, molested, and/or murdered (or taken advantage of financially or in other ways).
Gender complementarianism is essentially what the Bible refers to as “Fear of Man” (modern terminology is “codependency”), and it is condemned in the Bible.
But the gender complementarians are trying to pass it off as being biblical and admirable. 🙁
The “Fear of Man” (i.e., valuing people’s opinions and feelings more than God’s views and God’s opinions, being afraid to stand up to mean / abusive people, afraid of being outspoken, standing up for what is right, etc) is a sin that damages women, can be dangerous for women (and men), but women are told by John Piper and others that it’s not sinful, but something they ought to aspire to.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
American woman, in particular Christian ones, are socialized from the time they are wee tots to repress all anger. Nice Christian girls are not supposed to feel anger or show it.
If you are a woman who is direct with other people (especially with other females), you will get stabbed in the back and excluded/ ostraciczed by other females for being a “b_t_h.” (This nonsense even goes on among adult females, and among Christian ones.)
Sometimes some males are like that, they cannot handle females who are direct, who don’t play the indirect, ‘beat around the bush’ girly game.
Females are sometimes the biggest enemies of other females.
I’ve met plenty of male jerks over my life but dealing with them is usually preferable than dealing with the catty/nice girls, because you know where you stand with the jerk male (usually), because stuff is kept in the open.
When you say, “Which leads men to distrust women even more”
Oh, it makes women distrust other women, believe me. Some of the worst bullying I got in school days was from other females.
It’s even more of a disconnect (if you are a female) because you are taught that females are supposed to be nice and caring, so it’s hard to understand why your own gender is being so mean to you.
Not that men are never jerks, but like in the workplace, I’d much rather work with/for males than with/for females. It’s usually easier dealing with a male jerk on the job than a female, because males can deal with being confronted head on, directly.
Daisy wrote:
Jesus said, "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves." (Matthew 10:16) Being shrewd is exercising practical discernment and sagacity that can protect you and others from being exploited. It means knowing how and when to say "No!", which is something kids need to be taught. Having kids trained in karate doesn't hurt, either. Martial arts training doesn't guarantee their safety, but it does help them develop a level of awareness and skill that can be very helpful if they ever are targeted by a predator. The one young woman who got away from John Gardner, the San Diego serial rapist/murderer, had extensive martial arts training – and she used it!
@ Daisy:
I know you may not like it, but there’s nothing immoral about people preferring certain age groups, assuming we are talking about a legal age. People can’t help who they are attracted to, but they do have to live with the consequences if their desires are just too unrealistic. But no one wants to be with someone who is settling for less than what they want.
My father (in his 60s) is about to marry a girl in her late 20s. I don’t envy their relationship, but it’s their choice. Honestly, you wouldn’t want to be with him anyway. But my mom married a guy three years younger than her (and she is much happier than my father is).
I admit I’m attracted to younger women, though the last girl I dated was a little older than me. I try not to rule anyone out until I see how we interact- that’s the most Important factor. I think it’s not fair to accuse guys wanting to date younger women of being shallow and desiring to control- they just like what they like. It may be shallowness, it may be cultural, or it may be a million other things. We are complex beings, but what would you have them do? Date women they aren’t attracted to with a desire to be less shallow? That a recipe for a disastrous marriage.
I understand you are frustrated by the culture of older men dating younger women- I wish it wasn’t that way, and I wish no one who wanted to be with someone else never had to be alone. 🙁
Three thoughts, quick (been seriously lacking in time to comment much lately :-()
1) I just love reading the posts and comments here. All of them.
2) Hester has a blog? Yay! (Been considering starting one myself for months now, but I don’t know what I am doing).
3) I think that a truly repentant pedophile would consider Wade Burleson’s strategy for dealing with pedophiles a Mercy. Yes, perhaps humiliating as well. But a truly repentant pedophile would be one who has faced the gravity of what he has done, acknowledged its destructiveness, and will be grateful for any measures necessary that are taken to HELP HIM never to harm someone in that way again.
@Hester – the book I read is “Why Johnny Can’t Sing Hymns” by T David Gordon. The subtitle is How Pop Culture Rewrote the Hymnal. He has particular hostility toward guitars. This guy isn’t even a musician! I understand that we need to be serious about worship music, but there is nothing wrong with some modern music. I grew up in the Catholic Church, and some of my most significant and happy memories were about the music, some old and some new. I played in a folk group for years, and I know all the classic and traditional hymns, and some new stuff too.
In my former Christian church, we had a couple of professional piano players, and it was great when they were around. We even did a couple of long pieces of choir music for special occasions. Well, one of them died and the other went into the army. Also, a male who played guitar in the Sunday evening service moved away. I was not allowed to lead music because I was a woman. Then, the pastor took away all the contemporary music books, saying they made the services seem too casual. Then, he had a roster of 20 songs, all dirge-like hymns, and we ended up depressed every Sunday. The slow songs and the constant “you are a terrible sinner” messages, and his preaching a new Christian message with no applicable information to apply. We are supposed to get together with joy! I don’t know why we stayed so long.
My current church does mostly contemporary music, and it’s a little disconcerting, because I want music to connect me to the present and the past. I think I’m going to record and post some songs on YouTube so that group will want me to join. Maybe we can do something for E-Church, Dee and Deb, what do you think?
In my case, I was impressed with the young lady (22) and that she stood up for what she thought, even though it contradicted something I had said a few moments earlier. On the first day she was in the class, my exegesis of the passage, then hers, and she was right! But even in the late ’70s, it was rather rare for that kind of thing to happen, even in mixed singles Sunday School class. So she was bright and willing to speak her mind, two characteristics I consider attractive in any person. And not hard to look at by any means. It took two weeks and a day for me to ask her out for the next Saturday (end of week 3), and six days after that date, she proposed! So we knew each other 26 days when we became engaged. Happily married after 34 years and 2 children. And she still exegetes better than I do.
@ An Attorney:
And I am almost 9 years the older.
Okay, as expected, the pastors have sent out a CYA letter to the church members. It’s a shame they weren’t honest with them from the beginning. Makes you wonder what else they’ve been hiding.
Marge
That letter, in my opinion, is damning. He "took indecent liberties" with his 5 year old daughter. He will not be able to see her again until she is 18!!!! Oh my goodness!
They admit he was an usher. They admit they did not tell the Children's Ministry leaders. We are considering whether we should post it. This is CYA? Then they have bad advice. It is worse than I could have imagined.
Why don't you put what the cya letter said? Because it doesnt mesh with what you said marge?@ Marge Sweigart:
from the letter
March 7, 2013
Church Family,
Kevin Davis, a member of Crossway, is a registered sex offender. Kevin and his wife, Jenny, have been attending the church since October of 2009.
We are sharing this with all of you because a former member of Crossway recently participated in a blog post publicizing Kevin’s conviction and attendance at Crossway. This post has since been linked to on Facebook and is making the rounds. We recognize in the internet age that news travels fast and often is not accurate. We also recognize that in the absence of information speculation often wins the day. Rather than waiting for all of you to come to us with questions, we would like to explain to the best of our abilities how we have sought to protect our children and care for Kevin and Jenny as members of Crossway.
Kevin committed a sexual offense against his daughter the fall of 2009. He was charged with a sexual offense October 3, 2009. He was already divorced from his first wife at the time of the offense and all contact with his daughter was immediately severed. Due to his crime and subsequent conviction it will remain severed until she is 18 years of age. This offense did not take place at Crossway and was not committed against a child at Crossway. His offense happened before he was introduced to Crossway and was against his daughter.
David Clinard, a former member of Crossway, saw the news story about Kevin. Kevin was a former karate student of David’s and so David contacted Kevin to see how he was doing and asked if he would like to meet with a pastor. Kevin agreed to meet with me (Nick) and did mid-October 2009. I immediately notified the other pastors and our administrator of my meetings with Kevin and of the charges against him.
I met with Kevin and then with he and Jenny, who was then his girlfriend of 3 years. Kevin freely acknowledged his wrong doing and openly shared about his history and how his choices had led him to this sin. I shared the gospel with them over several meetings. Both of them made professions of faith and began to attend Crossway on Sunday mornings during October/November of 2009
Throughout the early stages of Kevin’s attendance he attended with Jenny and was required to sit with David Clinard or myself during the meetings. He arrived at the beginning of the service and left immediately after the service ended. He did not engage in any other church activities.
Starting in October of 2009 and for most of 2010 I met with Kevin and Jenny, counseled with him regarding his past, walked through pre-marital counseling with them and pastored them through Kevin’s criminal trial. He was convicted of taking indecent liberties with a minor in September of 2010. He was sentenced to 3 years of probation and a minimum of 10 years on the registered sex offenders list.
After the conviction and sentencing, we had a clearer picture of Kevin’s future and began to discuss what involvement at Crossway might look like for someone that has committed this crime. After consulting and being advised by lawyers who specialize in the area of sex offenders and church life, we entered into a covenant with Kevin. This covenant outlined how Kevin would be allowed to interact with others at Crossway. It was also at this time that we began talking about the idea of allowing Kevin and Jenny to build relationships with others in the church by attending a Care Group.
During the Spring of 2011 I approached David and Cheryl Elliott and asked them if they would be willing to have Kevin and Jenny join their group. We believed David and Cheryl were excellent candidates for taking on a unique situation like this. The group was relatively small and none of the children were young enough to need childcare, which eliminated the difficulties surrounding childcare.
David and Cheryl agreed and so I visited the group and spoke with all of the adults in the group. I discussed the details of Kevin’s history with them. I explained to them the details of the covenant Kevin had signed and gave them copies of the covenant to read. I expressed our desire to protect their children as well as the other children at CW. I also expressed our desire to allow Kevin and Jenny to integrate into church life in a meaningful but limited way.
We believed that between the covenant limiting Kevin’s interactions with others, pastoral accountability, the accountability of his CG, and Jenny’s accountability, as well as the normal precautions that are taken to protect the children of Crossway, that we could allow Kevin and Jenny to begin engaging in a limited but meaningful way while protecting our children. The Care Group agreed to have Kevin and Jenny join and they did so late Spring 2011.
It was also decided at that time that if a new family with children sought to join the group that we would inform them of Kevin’s conviction and allow them to decide whether they wanted to attend the group. On three separate occasions families sought to join the group and each time we informed them of Kevin’s conviction.
Over the Summer of 2012 it was suggested that we notify the Security Team of Kevin’s conviction. The Security Team was taking over responsibility for monitoring children’s ministry and we thought this was a wise and reasonable precaution to take. They were informed late summer 2012.
One aspect of church life that Kevin served in that we would not repeat would be Kevin serving as an usher. Kevin and Jenny became members of Crossway June of 2010. Kevin began serving as an usher shortly thereafter. At that time a verbal commitment was in place limiting where Kevin could be, but not a written covenant. Pastors and our administrator (who oversees the ushers) were aware of Kevin’s history, but no one else had yet been notified. Kevin’s role on the team was limited to the upstairs, which he was free to be in, but we were unwise not to see that ushers are given a degree of trust that might have placed a child at risk.
A couple at Crossway approached us during Kevin’s tenure as an usher. They had seen his picture on the registered sex offenders website and were concerned that he was serving as an usher. We informed them of the restrictions we had placed upon Kevin and that we believed those were sufficient. They were satisfied with our approach. However, in hindsight we believe we should have erred more on the side of caution. We regret this decision and would not make it again moving forward. Kevin served as an usher until October of 2012.
Another oversight was that we did not inform Bob and Julie Moore who oversee Children’s Ministry. Again, if we had it to do over again we would have informed Bob and Julie and will do so in the future if a similar situation arises.
Throughout this process we have sought to protect our children by strictly limiting Kevin’s involvement in the church while at the same time seeking to allow Kevin and Jenny to have a limited but meaningful Christian life at Crossway. By the grace of God, I believe we have done so.
How do we proceed?
First, please show compassion and care for Kevin and Jenny. They have sought to comply with every request we have made of them since our first meeting. They have both walked humbly and openly throughout this process. They have shown every sign of genuine faith as they have continued to grow as disciples of Jesus Christ. I could not commend them more highly. They are a wonderful couple. If you do not yet know them, please get to know them. They are loved by their Care Group and all those who know them closely. They love God and are dearly love by God.
Second, in hindsight, there are things we would do differently. If you disagree with how we have chosen to handle this situation, please aim your frustration at us not at Kevin and Jenny or any other member of Crossway. We made the decisions and we are responsible for them.
Lastly, we recognize that this is not the only way to have handled this situation. We have had long and numerous discussions about how broadly to share this information along the way. We came down on a policy that we believed provided both real protection for our children and a limited but loving context where Kevin and Jenny could grow as disciples. That being said, we are learning as we go. We do not have all of the answers and we are open to hearing alternative ways to handle situations like this in the future.
Obviously, given a topic of this magnitude a letter is insufficient to fully anticipate and answer all of the questions that you may have. Please know our commitment to hear your feedback and answer any and all questions you may have.
In grace,
Nick, on behalf of the Pastoral Team
sharklasers
That letter is damning to the church! Do you not see that? Are you that blind? The letter I received, purportedly from the church, made things seem even worse that I can imagined. WORSE!
The guy allegedly molested his own 5 year old daughter!!! She cannot see him until she is 18 according to that letter. I need to confirm that the letter is actually from the church. If I post it, it will not be received well by most people. I am shocked! Shame on the church leadership!
Ill let you know it is from the church because I am a member there… here is the cover letter sent from the David moore. he didn’t allegedly do anything, he did it, was convicted of it. its not damning all of that is standard legal procedings, do your homework.
Brothers and Sisters,
Attached you will find information regarding a member of Crossway who is currently listed on the North Carolina Sex Offenders Registry. We are sending you this information at this time because we have been informed that a former member of Crossway has posted this information on a blog and has linked these blogs to her Facebook page. While I find these actions reprehensible I recognize that this is the age in which we now live, and that as your pastors we need to serve you as these things occur.
I trust as you read this account you will find that we have acted in a manner that first and foremost appropriately protects our children and secondarily, cares for a man who has committed a crime, is paying the price that society rightly demands but who also is now a brother in Christ that deserves the same grace, mercy and love that God has undeservedly and unreservedly bestowed on each and every one of us through the gospel.
In some ways I think this is a crucial moment in our life together. How we choose to respond to situations like this will speak loudly to our understanding of the gospel, community, love for our neighbors and our obligations as Christians regarding biblical speech. I type these words trusting that our response will be one that adorns the gospel and glorifies God because I believe with all my heart that that’s the kind of people we are. It is a privilege to serve as your pastor.
With affection,
Mickey
@ dee:
Sharklaser
This one is on your head. The letter is damaging.
The “reprehensible” Dee
@ sharklasers:
huh?dee wrote:
if they thought it would be damaging, do you think they would have sent it out? don’t think so.@ dee:
your not reprehensible, reading comprehension is your friend@ dee:
What is date letter sent out?
this afternoon@ Anon 1:
@ Looking for You:
I just started the blog yesterday…already have two comments and one like! : ) Which is surprising to me, to be honest… I posted the address further up the thread. I’m working my way through a box of Vision Forum CDs that my family inherited from our homeschool group. First up: How to Think Like a Christian by Doug Phillips. I just finished listening to the lecture and am now looking over my notes trying to write the first article…
Glad to see you are back! Hugs, and I hope you enjoy the blog.
Sharklaser,
His 5year old daughter! He is not in prison but should be not ushering at church. Sheesh!!!
Dee, if authentic, that letter is exhibit A for the mentality pervasive at SGM!
@ Velvet:
“Then, the pastor took away all the contemporary music books, saying they made the services seem too casual. Then, he had a roster of 20 songs, all dirge-like hymns, and we ended up depressed every Sunday. The slow songs and the constant ‘you are a terrible sinner’ messages, and his preaching a new Christian message with no applicable information to apply. We are supposed to get together with joy!”
That’s sad… As an organist I can tell you that hymns don’t have to be dirges, even the very old ones from psalters, etc. I always try to play hymns at a tempo that matches the spirit of the words and is singable by the congregation. If it’s a happy song, don’t take it slow! (Esp. not on Easter Sunday!)
My old PCA church used to do something somewhat similar. They had a “vocabulary” of about 30-40 hymns and they rarely deviated from it. Unfortunately this has led to me associating “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross” with that church and Neo-Calvinism…which is dreadfully unfair to that song and I have resolved not to let it ruin it.
I’d heard of the book before but haven’t read it.
@ Heather:
Thank you!!!! Thank you!!!
I wish I could spend more time on here!!!
Hester,
Oh wow, I can’t wait to read your first article! I think I have that CD. My idea for a blog was to start posting Christian articles and quotes that I find online that confuse/anger me or leave me feeling unsettled or downright distressed. And there are a lot of those, but I often cannot put a finger on why they leave me feeling that way until I’ve written long journal entries. Why not share my musings with the world so I can also get some feedback to help me clarify even further? But I don’t even know how to set up a blog!
@ LFY:
You should probably investigate WordPress. It’s free, they have lots of “themes” (blog designs) for you to choose from and you don’t have to know HTML code, etc. to make your site look presentable. You choose the background color, name, URL, etc. and you’re pretty much good to go.
Marge Sweigart wrote:
Exactly. This current letter is not forthcoming. Every parent at CrossWay should have been informed from the beginning. Since they now claim that they could have done better, they should have sought expert counsel from the beginning.
Shark,
The only reason they sent the letter out is because they got outed. Otherwise, you would never know would you.
They were 'serving' you by keeping you ignorant.
Sheesh!
Hester, I used to be a church pianist when I was a teenager, at the church I grew up in (would love to be one again). I agree, hymns do NOT have to be boring or depressing! Especially when the congregation is heartily belting out 4-part harmony at the top of their lungs! Goodness, I miss that…
In the Reformed church I attended for years, the hymns d-r-a-g-g-e-d, I always got horrible yawn attacks, everyone sang them so mournfully, and there was no harmonizing. Being a music person who knows how powerful worshipping God through music can be, this was really depressing for me…
@ Anon 1:
Yep. It’s just damage control.
i knew about it, and feel completely comfortable how they handled the situation. hate to see you fall one day only to be shunned.@ Anon 1:
@ Anon 1:
Yes. It is interesting that they still refused to say that they should have let every member of the church know. Only certain people should know ? ! ? ! There is no reason to keep the information from the congregation, especially since it is on the sex offender registry.
@ Jeff S.:
I do agree with you that an age difference isn’t immoral. The example I shared above about the 38-year-old and the 18-year-old and how it was “creepy” stems mostly from a variety of things:
1) he has a 12-year-old daughter from his first marriage – only six years younger than his new wife;
2) she is pretty sheltered and immature and, it seemed, fairly absorbed in her own interests – she seemed to not even be interested in dating/marriage when the engagement was announced;
3) her dad is a huge fan of John Piper so it’s a little confusing to me why he’s even letting his daughter marry a divorcee (an “adulterer” according to Piper) in the first place.
I have couples in my genealogy where the husband was 29 and the wife was 18, 30 and 20, etc. They were normal “back in the day” and I think they can still work out, though obviously common sense is needed as always.
On a more personal note, I know there’s been times (as a 22-year-old single not yet dating) that I look around at guys my own age and wonder if dating a more mature man 6-10 years my senior would be a better option, given the number of younger 20-something men who seem completely uninterested in getting a job (actually uninterested – not unemployed through misfortune, etc.). Though according to the half-plus-7 rule, dating a 30-year-old would put me, at 22, right on the cusp of the “creepy zone.” : ) I take that rule as more of a guideline.
sharklasers wrote:
Your description of molesting one’s five-year-old daughter as “falling” concerns me regarding your character. Perhaps your contact with children should be limited. Most of our sins are not criminal acts. This is a matter of public safety, not shunning.
@ sharklasers:
“hate to see you fall one day only to be shunned”
UGH! Informing people IS NOT SHUNNING! Shunning is what many Godly people in SGM experienced when they wouldn’t bow to ungodly authoritarian leadership . . . the same leadership that didn’t think the people in the pews needed to know about a pedophile in their congregation. How backwards is all of this?
Sharklaser
My reading comprehension? Hmmm, that has always been one of my strengths. This letter was not smart. It validates everything. And makes it even worse. This guy boogered his own kid. And he is now remarried. There are fools and then there are darn fools…@ sharklasers:
Shark, there willl be no convincing you so i wont waste my time. That was no mere fall like falling off the wagon. That childs life is affected and altered forever. I notice she is given little thought. No wonder there is a lawsuit.
sharklasers wrote:
Why would you be shunned?
Dee – – – are you having fun yet? LOL Just another boring day on TWW, I see!
Anon1
I have to admit I am stymied. This letter not only confirms Marge but makes the situation seem worse. Sharklasers says I have poor reading comprehension. But, I think I understand the situation all too well.
Can you imagine. marrying a guy who molested his own daughter???A daughter he can’t see until she is an adult? Something is very, very wrong here. @ Bridget:
Looking for You wrote:
This is right. What is with this squeamishness about facing the gravity of what a child abuser has actually done? Grace and forgiveness doesn’t mean the consequences of your actions go away. Someone who abused a child doesn’t get to be around children again, ever. That’s not a gratuitous punishment; it’s a necessary precaution to prevent sexual predation. Is someone who abused a child and truly sorry really going to say “Well, it’s so unfair if everyone knows what I did. Also these are onerous measures and it’s just not fair and I really need to be allowed to move past this and get on with my life.” Really? Someone who understood what they did and were truly sorry would be thinking about the fact that their victims don’t have a choice about moving on…
Julie Anne
I swear I am losing my mind. The letter from the church makes things seem even worse. I cannot understand why sharklasers is saying it proves how great things are. Did I just step into a House of Mirrors?
Ahhhh-the old shun-the slap of silence. That makes me giggle. Oooooooh I am sooooooo afraid of shunning. Whatever shall I do? What happens when the people who shun you are the people you don’t want to talk to? Is it a shun or a blessing?@ Julie Anne:
Bridget
What in the world is going on? Is this SGM speak? The letter makes things seem even worse. What am I missing?
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
@ Hester:
Yes, that 38 year old marrying an 18 year old with a 12 year old daughter is definitely creepy. That has to be uncomfortable for the 12 year old.
I definitely think there is something to women wanting to date older men because they are more mature. I kind of feel like if I end up with someone my same age then I’ll be outclassed in that regard (which might not be a bad thing!). I STILL feel like a big kid on most days.
One thing I do know- dating single mothers is a whole different bag from women who have never had children, and that is a much bigger difference than the age. Mothers are not so easily impressed by shiny red cars . . .
Julie Anne,
We definitely need a break! However, I don’t know when things will settle down because Dee’s upcoming post is going to be a doozy!
@ dee:
Yeah. Time for some more chocolate.
I guess if you belong to a church that shuns you for simply asking questions then this becomes the pattern of thinking. Nobody here advocated shunning the guy. You only wanted to see people informed.
Been There
This has to be one of the most confusing situations I have ever seen. The letter from the church makes things seem a whole lot worse. I am going to bed.
@ dee:
Sweet dreams, dear Dee. Look forward to the post on Prestonwood.
@ dee:
I don’t understand the logic at all! I had a small headache that just turned into a massive one 🙁
Eagle, You have such a good heart. I don’t think you need to worry about being a hypocrite. 🙂
I fear the child molester at crossway was playing the game we all know too well. He is well aware he would never be an usher if the entire church knew….and so soon after joining! If the pastors knew, why the rush to have him serve in such a visible trusting position? Methinks the molester was affirming himself, too. Please! I hope his new wife does not have children. SGM is a totally upside down thinking place.
SGM Detox is back on Saturday. Here’s a preview: http://calltorevolution.blogspot.com/2013/03/sgm-detox-preview-lifestyle-legalism.html
@ Eagle:
You already aren’t a hypocrite. You’ve been very honest, and that’s commendable. The “pastors” that do such horrible things keep am image up that’s not real.
@ dee:
What you are missing is that he (and the church) believe that this man can be trusted within the parameters they set and you don’t. You both think your positions should be obvious, but they are not (to the other side).
For what it’s worth, I think you are right that the measures taken weren’t strong enough; however, the church’s ignorance is not surprising. Most people haven’t the first clue about how to deal with sexual abuse. I know Jeff Crippen’s story started with sexual abuse happening in his church and how he knew they handled it inadequately- so he began to learn and his current ministry was born.
Dee…cracking me up!
Yes, shunning can be a blessing
SGM: please shun me
The letter serves to prove the cult thinking. And the cult cannot see it. No surprise there. They have helped the plaintiffs though.
jeff, rightly assessed, I would also say that most churches don't even go to this length to protect the congregation. how many churches have you been to that put posters up of sexual offenders or provide such information? i've never seen one. the fact that the pastors went to the length listed as well as sought out professional legal advice i think says a lot. @ Jeff S:
Bridget wrote:
Like I said earlier in the thread.
They need to admit it and get educated.
@ sharklasers:
As a parent, I say it was not enough. So, tell me, when he molests another child, who takes responsibility for the failure to protect the child? Are the church leaders ready to assume that responsibility, or should the parents have an active role in the protection of their children?
@ lilyrosemary:
Right! This is so important – grace is always available to us, but we do not always escape consequences (nor should we). And can a repentant pedophile (who will most likely continue to struggle with temptation to some extent) REALLY “just move on with life” when his former ways are still so accessible to him, and he has to deal with that temptation every day with no one to be accountable to? I cannot imagine.
@ sharklasers:
The question I have is, what happens next? Do they regret their hand being forced, or do they realize that this public awareness was the right thing?
And progression LEGAL advice doesn’t actually speak well of them- that means they wanted to protect themselves from being sued. Prudent, but not pastoral.
Pastor Crippen, who I mentioned in my post, went to the medical community and started reading, and reading, and reading. Not to protect himself from liability, but his congregation from predators. He learned about abuse, the mindset behind it, and how good abusers are at conning their ways into access to victims. Then he went to scripture and preached on the subject for several months,
That is the response of a leader who wants to protect his flock, not seeing his lawyer.
@ sharklasers:
They all should! And maybe they don’t because they want to put on a smiley face band-aide and say there, there, instead of going to government institutions that know how to deal with it and learn something.
@ Jeff S: Jeff I would say the latter, that awareness is good, but must be done in a careful way, because as the letter said, Kevin is paying is dues, and is willing to be recognized as a sexual predator, understands what he did and is walking through that, but he is still human, and a person. I agree that all churches should improve what they do in this arena, but this problem wasnt even on the radar of churches (unfortunately) 5-10 years ago…its a game of catch up and it seems like ALL churches are always playing it.
@ sharklasers:
In fact, here you go- here’s a great place to start learning about the mindset of the abuser and what the scripture has to say about it. This should be very accessible to you: a Reformed pastor doing a 21 part series on abuse:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?sourceOnly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=crc&keyworddesc=&subsetcat=series&subsetitem=Domestic+Violence+and+Abuse
@ Bridget: you think government institutions know how to deal with this? that's laughable. i'm sorry but I don't think any church or people want to hide this stuff, i just think most pastors an church leadership both in SGM and out are ignorant and are trying to play catch up, but to propose the government knows what they are doing in this arena is hilarious.
@ Looking for You:
When I led congregational singing (2 services every Sunday for five years), I would usually lead four verses of a hymn in the time the previous person did 3 and quit. So I got kudos from some for the peppiness and for some for singing all the verses. But others complained about one or the other. But after a few months they got used to the idea of the poetry being kept intact, and we found an intermediate pace closer to my preference than to previous practice. Works especially well for some of the older hymns of praise that can be very cheerful if done at a fairly rapid pace.
A very conservative Baptist church here recently lost their music minister who led the hymns there at a pace that I found comfortable when I visited. I heard he is writing country music these days and has contracts in Nashville.
@ Jeff S: thanks for the resource, ill take a listen.
Let’s see…
The convicted sex offender served as an usher for about two years (he began this ‘role’ shortly after joining the church).
The children’s ministry leaders were not made aware of his criminal record.
The pastors are just now sharing this with the congregation and regretting their previous decisions.
It boggles the mind…
Jeff, We are reading the letter through the eyes of The victims of the lawsuit. Remember them?
The letter is CYA move because they got outed. They were doing what SGM has always done.
I do disagree with them on some things, but with this I am trying to be understanding. I agree that they should have informed security and children’s ministry long ago, which even they admit. I am not sure if I think all parents should know or not. I am still not sure. I don’t like to form opinions too quickly. All I am saying is that it is a hard situation with no good way to handle it and even though they made a mistake I am trying to sympathize with them.
I do not mean to be an apologist for them – just to provide some balance since Jesus himself hung out with tax collectors and lepers. I feel sorry for the 1st wife, the daughter, the new wife, and even this guy (even if it is his fault).
For the record, I have never met the guy (but I am acquainted with Marge).
@ Anon 1: you’re off in this, there is no lawsuit against Crossway or Kevin, why would they have to CYA? no one at crossway is being sued
but maybe after a good night’s sleep I’ll be more upset than I am
@ sharklasers:
There are plenty of people who post here who can give you the information on how much better the secular world is at addressing this. It’s not laughable. You are uninformed. And if SGM is merely ignorant, then why have they refused to address the concerns in the lawsuit. Seems like SGM doesn’t care.
Randall,
Why shouldn’t all the parents know?
It’s a matter of public record, which is why it came to light in the first place.
@ sharklasers:
I think that is a fair statement, but remember that the children in the congregation are humans and people too.
The church did have the option to make this public in a different way. Whether Kevin is truly "paying his dues" will be an open question to many here. It seems to me (and others may disagree) that by appearances Kevin has done all that he ought to have done, and it is the church that failed its people.
That doesn't make Kevin a safe person to be around; however, he will never be able to "earn" that kind of trust in this life. That is a tragedy, but if he is repentant he knows and understands this. I do believe there needs to be compassion for abusers who are repentant, but this must always come secondary to protecting victims and potential victims.
@ Randall: good word Randall, that has been my position, although I am a member and go to crossway, I don’t feel perfectly comfortable on how it was approached, but the willingness to admit where they misstepped is a HUGE deal in the “SGM” world….a year a go, they wouldn’t have even responded to this article nor accusations and claimed absolute perfect execution. I have met Kevin, and I do feel for him because the guy from all appearances that I know of and have seen him is that he is willing to be marked the “sexual predator” and he realizes that he did something horrible and wants to take on any penalty that is due him. but he is coming to this church to change and have Jesus redeem him and take that corrupt heart and make it clean. can’t fault him for that.
@ BeenThereDoneThat: Bridget said government, not secular world…and secondly this is about crossway and not SGM…that is an important distinction that needs to be made…
Deb wrote:
If my child was molested by a member that the leaders knew about but I didn’t, it would be an instant lawsuit.
@ sharklasers:
There are government and secular institutions, including psychiatrists and psychologists, that know much more about pedaphalia, how to deal with them, and the dangers they pose, than leaders of churches do. Why do we have to wait for the Church to figure out pedaphalia when there is so much helpful information out there? My experience is that many church leaders have chosen to stick their heads in the sand on this. Public schools, YMCAs, and other institutions that deal with children are leaps ahead of the church in this area. These institutions, as well as the government, are not the enemy.
@ sharklasers:
I am aware Crossway is not in the lawsuit. The letter proves the pervasive ingrained cult thinking that is SGM wide. I don’t expect you to get it. If you understood it you would not be there.
Anon 1 wrote:
Of course I remember the victims. I honestly am not sure why you would ask me that. 🙁
You KNOW I am extremely burdened for victims . . .
@ Jeff S: agreed on all fronts there…but reading this article makes it seem as if it was the church’s duty to use billboards, blimps and all other means of communications to tell everyone that there is a sexual offender at the church and I think that is unrealistic and said to evoke some sort of outcry against a church that in my humble opinion shouldn’t be lumped in with all the other “SGM” stuff. Not to mention, the way Marge Sweigart went about this is wrong, and unless the pastors put out these letters, the true story wouldn’t have been told, marge told half truths…and half truths never are right. Like I told Dee in an email, Dee asked why would i want to put something out there that in her eyes seems more damaging, and I said because the truth is worth it….let the truth speak for itself. if what the pastors did was wrong, let it be wrong, but atleast this is from the horse’s mouth and not back alley gossip like Marge was putting out there.
Anon 1 wrote:
Ok, don’t forget the church did pre-marriage counseling. WHY????????????? Shouldn’t the church have DIScouraged them from marrying? Isn’t this sounding like the Wilson story again – Doug Wilson arranged the marriage of a pedophile to a young lady, yet if they have children, he cannot be in the home. So, guess where my mind is going? How can they do this? This church is known for pushing procreation and birth control is evil. So now they make an exception – all children are a blessing except those procreated from this couple? Ack! This is all kinds of crazy. . . . . . trying not to let my mind wander to Sproul Jr., and Swanson, embedded fetuses and all of that stuff . . . . but you know . . my mind does wander. STOP the insanity!
@ sharklasers:
The attorneys that the church consulted blew it. The government approach to pedophiles is to publish their picture and send postcards to all of the residences within a radius of the residence of the pedophile, as well as to the schools, libraries, and churches, and other places children may be. The church’s approach is to keep it secret from the parents of children in the church and the children’s program leaders and make the man a trusted person by the role he was assigned. That was foolishness.
Sorry shark, You can’t get rid of SGM DNA that fast. The letter has SGM speak all over it. You can’t see it because it is so normal to you.
@ Anon 1: just because I am still here doesn’t meant i don’t get some of the pervasive, horrible, and manupulative culture of the past. but I am faithful to my friends and people that I am following Jesus with, that is what it is about to me…not some organization or group of know it alls. its about my friends in the faith and serving and living along side of them, forgive me for not wanting to give that up based on some serious leadership issues of men that are no longer leading in SGM, and the hilarious thing is the very guy that started all this, was the worst offender of them all, ask anyone who’s honest about Brent and they will tell you that man was the worst of them all.
@ sharklasers:
Well, Dee was right. All you did was show how much worse the situation is than what Marge knew about. So, thanks for furthering the premise of this post.
@ An Attorney: just because it didn’t have a marketing campaign behind it doesn’t mean it was “hidden” as you say. and as many pedophiles that live around me (by me searching the database), i have never been alerted by the authorities…I had to go find out for myself, and if I were a parent, I would be looking at that registry more often then not and not waiting on my church to tell me who’s who.
sharklasers wrote:
What do you mean by “half truth” anyway? How can something be half true? It’s either true or its false. Tell me what I said that is false.
sharklasers wrote:
I’m not following you. What are you talking about? What did Marge do wrong? What half-truths?
This is my first post here, but I have been reading for over a year; around the time that Brent went public with his documents. I did not attend Crossway, but I am very close to some that have. It is also within a 5 minute drive from my house so I have a vested interest in what is going on in my backyard (especially as it pertains to registered sex offenders, as a mom of 2 gorgeous little ones). I also attended Desiring God church for awhile. For those that aren't aware, that is a church plant from John Piper's church in Minnesota. One of the pastor's there was involved in a bible study with CJ Mahaney and they are incredibly friendly with Mickey Connolly. Praise God that we were forced to stay on the outskirts of that church due to health reasons. So when everything broke we were able to discern the craziness of that culture and hightail it out of there!
All of that to say, I just can't be quiet any longer. There are so many crazy and illogical stances the pastors at CW are taking. That letter is incredibly upsetting as it just proves that protecting the registered sex offender took higher priority over protecting all of the kids that walk through those doors. Just a quick cursory look shows that in Mickey's cover letter, he spent 3 words talking about protecting the children and 51 words were spent talking about protecting the registered sex offender! I was completely floored and horribly disappointed tonight as I was reading some facebook comments by John Morrison (a former pastor at CW – although he still attends and completely supports their ideology).
After defending CW's actions of not informing parents because it was the parent's responsibility to be completely aware of every single person's face and name that enters the doors so they can check it against the sex offender registry, he then quickly tires of the logical backlash of responses he got, and offers this lovely comment. "Anyways, this is boring and fruitless now. Over and out." I am sure the poor daughter that was abused by her father would not find this topic 'boring' nor any parent that is just finding out about this!!. It is amazing how anyone can take such a cavalier attitude towards this topic – much less in the wake of the lawsuits. What will it take for these men to see that their ideology hurts people???
@ BeenThereDoneThat: as long as it is the truth. unfortunately blogs like these and forums have become a bastion of misinformation, gossip, an outright lies. Marge should have known better to post this 3rd person he said she said, “i talked to a friend of a cousin of a friend who was an usher a few years ago” stuff.
@ Julie Anne: read the account from the pastors, and read her account, she was off factually in multiple places.
@ sharklasers:
Please point out the gossip, lies, and misinformation.
Shark, You are proud of something you should be ashamed of. Marge z cares about children. Only thing you’ve shown here is you care about the image of your church. You care more about bricks and mortar then you do little children. Please never forget a 5 year old little girl. I care about her not if her molester gets to be an usher.
This is ridiculous. Dear God! how cold hearted Christianity has become.
@ Marge Sweigart: marge you know better than that, the account you give is at best a partial account on how crossway is, its amazing to me how you would come out like this and still let your own children go to this very church…puzzling. you also know that matter of church discipline and someone joining the church are two different things as well as most people dont even know how crossway is laid out schematically so to say that he was limited to the sanctuary doesn’t mean anything to anyone unless you have been in crossway and realize that we have a huge security staff that is armed and on guard in the lobby, in the sanctuary and three of them downstairs in the children’s ministry, which by the way can only be accessed one way and at the top of those stair is a security guard, and at the bottom of those stairs is a security guard, you assert things that you know can be interpreted wrongly and don’t feel the need to clarify them…that is what I am talking about, I could go into more detail about you and steve but I won’t do what you do.
@ Anon 1: I care about the truth Anon, or why did i voluntarily put up the letters that were sent out today? you know I’m the one who did that…and it does show things weren’t handled properly..so I’m not concerned about being right, only that the truth be known and people stop acting like they are perfect and go to perfectly run churches…I was talking to someone today that no longer goes to crossway and I asked them the very question you all act like every church does “do you know if there are offenders in your new church?”…..and you know what their answer was? take a guess….
@ sharklasers:
Pastors should be doing a better job informing their congregations and making sure the children are safe and then people wouldn’t have to do something else at a different forum. From what I understand, Dee attempted to contact your pastors to get the facts correct and they did not respond. We’re not at this place because of Marge.
I can't believe it but also not surprised because it seems like the worms keep coming out of the can that has been opened. Dee & Deb, hang in there! I truly think this is just the tip of the iceberg.
I am a little loss for words. That people think the church handled this well. No they didn't and the only reason any of them know is because they want to look good in the eyes of the congregation and save whatever face they have left by writing that letter. Never do they say we have prayed for his daughter and care about that daughter and ex-wife that has to deal with this and help her daughter through this life.
I want to cry and Yell at the same time. So many emotions because when this kind of stuff gets swept under the rug, it is a horrible feeling for the child that has been abused. It's like they don't matter at all and others are more concerned about helping the offender out more. I just don't get that. I have been there, it's a horrible thing to get through. It's hard to process it. Very hard. I am thankful that it has made me extra protective over my boys. You can't undo an offense to a child. There is no way to undo it!!!!!
Good night and God speed to all who are trying help the abused.
sharklasers wrote:
They are adults and don’t need my permission to do anything.
Armed and on guard ???
@ Anon 1: you are something else….that 5 year old girl has never darkened the doors of our church nor can we do anything about it…you said crossway failed at something, and I am addressing that…of course I care about the 5 year old girl, but i don’t see how that has anything to do with the fact that the pastors did what they thought was best to let people in direct contact with kevin and the security staff know his past. I could care less if he gets to be an usher, but i do care that he has a chance to grow as a christian and have God change his heart and life. you know I’m sure you have some deep dark secrets that if anyone knew you would be ashamed of, maybe something of a similar nature, but you know what, Jesus is great than this and he came to save those whores, adulterers, child molesters, and liars…and the church is what we have until he comes back. to lose sight of what christianity is about is what you have done. and no its not about a brick and mortar church, if you read my interchange with Jeff you know that I dont feel that way….
@ sharklasers:
Well, sweetie, there were five people convicted in my former church for molesting children- that we know of. Some of them were not even reported immediately. It’s what landed them in the news. So, I suggest EVERY church had better get their act together about pedophilia. Because I CARE about the children, not because I think I’m better than everyone else. And you stumbled onto a blog that CARES about the children.
@ Marge Sweigart: nice one, i don’t care if my child was 50 years old, if they went to a “cult pedophile church” like crossway I would be doing everything in my power to get them…and you say adult…they are very young adults…don’t try to make it sound like they are 35 or something the arent barely in college.
@ Catherine – Free:
@ sharklasers:
Shark, just as Bridget said, “We are not at this place because of Marge” It’s because the lack of communication to your congregation! That’s what the truth is. Even your church staff says in hindsight they shouldn’t have let him be an usher. Why would you let him do anything that puts him in a trusted position? No matter how you all feel about this man, he shouldn’t be viewed as a trustworthy person if you haven’t fully informed your families!!! That is just crazy thinking right there!
Yeah, lets clarify Shark. Your pastors had a chance to correct or set things straight. They chose not to and what Marge has said in the original blog post is not incorrect of the context of the information. Yes, the pastors shared more but only because this was brought to light. You would have never gotten a letter like this at all, you can be sure of that!!
@ BeenThereDoneThat: I agree with one, one abuse is too much. it just seems as if people are making this out like crossway is the only church in the world that has this situation and that they were asleep at the wheel, far from it.
@ sharklasers:
Wow. That was such a Christian response. Would you spit on her, too, if she were standing in front of you? Is that the fruit of CrossWay?
@ Catherine – Free: so ends justify means eh? gotcha.
Pedophilia in the church is so prevalent that I believe it’s gonna come down to this => In order for churches to get proper insurance coverage, they are going to have to implement a full disclosure policy. All congregants must be informed about those in the church who are REGISTERED SEX OFFENDERS in order to keep insurance coverage in force. There is far too much exposure for them to do otherwise.
That’s my opinion, and I’m sticking to it…
Good night all.
Shark,
From my perspective all SGM pastors come from the same DNA – Brent included. It was only a matter of time for it to implode. You are a cult.
If not for Marge, the parents at Crossway still would not know there was a man in their midst who molested his own 5 year old daughter. And the ignorant pastors let him be an usher!
By the way the premarital counseling should have consisted of this: Don't have children! At least if you are stupid enough to marry a molester of children. Marge is a hero to me.
For those who were asking for definitions, the first link in this post goes to http://missingkids.com/en_US/publications/NC70.pdf, entitled “Child Molesters: A Behavioral Analysis”. This is another excellent resource. The author makes distinctions between legal definitions and practical definitions, and the difference between situational offenders and preferential offenders. I’ve read alot of this today, and eventually had to quit to get some fresh air after reading about such horrible things, but I will continue to learn as much about this topic as I can stand.
I was struck by Mickey’s letter, that they at first consulted an attorney about the situation with the attending pedophile. One of Boz Tchividjian’s recommendations was to consult a professional person (counselor, psychiatrist, etc.,) who specializes in sexual offender treatment — not an attorney, because generally, an attorney focuses on how to keep the church from being sued, while a professional expert focuses on protection of victims and help for perpetrators. And, by the way, Mr. T. is an attorney himself.
@ BeenThereDoneThat: explain? i’m sorry i have written too much to try and figure out what you are referring to, maybe quote it so I can see what you are calling me out about.
@ Nickname: Nickname…this attorney is in the same field as Boz, just an fyi.
@ sharklasers:
Click on your name in blue. It will take you to the post in question.
@ Deb: I agree deb..but remember…its about the kids!!!!!! not liability! 🙂
@ sharklasers:
Or maybe purple? Not sure how it shows up different colors.
@ BeenThereDoneThat: thanks… I was being serious, and the fact that she lets her young (under 25) children attend the very church she claims is a cult, hides pedophiles, and is abusive is just beyond the pail for me. don’t know why that is unchristian…
Deb wrote:
I don’t know. You might be right.
@ sharklasers:
Well, with comments like that, you just confirm all that Dee and Deb have written about the attitude in SGM’s “family of churches.” You’ve shown more interest in protecting your church’s image and the predator than the welfare of children.
@ BeenThereDoneThat: the reason I said that is because i was chastized for being about the church and not the children yet deb comes out with a practical way that church will need to “protect themselves” and I thought it was interesting that she didn’t get called out for it..
Sharklasers – when I asked for proof of what you accused Marge of saying, I did not ask for you to cut below the belt. It’s inappropriate for you to mention her husband’s name and bring her adult children in this conversation. Please knock it off. You are showing your true Kool-Aid drinking colors by this kind of tactic.
@ sharklasers:
Perhaps because Marge’s children are of age to make their own decisions. It’s not a matter of her “letting” them do anything. They are adults. And, yes, the way you addressed her was very ugly. IMHO
@ sharklasers: and please let me be completely clear with you, I know I am a sinner saved by grace and am not perfect, nor have perfect objective opinions, unlike some on here i realize that. so attacking my character is actually stating the obvious, I am in process like everyone else, and I dare say you and your church is too!
@ sharklasers:
“Pedophilia in the church is so prevalent that I believe it’s gonna come down to this => In order for churches to get proper insurance coverage, they are going to have to implement a full disclosure policy. All congregants must be informed about those in the church who are REGISTERED SEX OFFENDERS . . .”
Sorry, but Deb’s comment was still about protecting the children.
@ sharklasers:
It IS about the kids, which is why this post was written. There was no response from your pastors when clarification was asked for, and Marge knew that your congregants were unaware. It’s pretty simple.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:there is a difference between being ugly and being christian…secondly like i said, if i had children at a church that is what she says it is “cult, pedophile den, and abusive” I don’t care how old they are…especially when they are barely of age, they may even still be living with marge…I’m sorry but I would be investing my efforts in getting them out of there and not posting on blogs…just my .02…is that harsh? if so, maybe its true. everyone is willing to talk about this man that none of you know personally and the horrid sin he commited against his own child yet I can’t show the irony of this situation?
@ BeenThereDoneThat: c’mon now..finish the quote… All congregants must be informed about those in the church who are REGISTERED SEX OFFENDERS in order to keep insurance coverage in force. There is far too much exposure for them (churches) to do otherwise.
Shark, I am sure in SGMgroup think, Someone over 18 Is still under the authority of their parents. In fact doesn’t the lawsuit have a victim who was being beaten by her father at age 25? And the adults in SGM are under the authority of the pastor and or care group leader. You guys are really into all that authority over others bilge.
You also said above you were not a parent.
Sharklasers – You need to STOP bringing Marge’s adult children into this discussion NOW. This is not about her children. Stick to the subject.
@ sharklasers:
“everyone is willing to talk about this man that none of you know personally and the horrid sin he commited against his own child”
Yes, because the rest of CrossWay should be aware of his presence there.
@ Bridget: i would be interested to know when the clarification was asked for…even still, would you discuss something of this nature with some unknown person calling the church and wanting to know about sex offenders in your church? i would would be leery of that to be honest.
@ BeenThereDoneThat: again, ends justify means…got it.
sharklasers wrote:
Shark, you should know that you can’t tell a Sweigert what to do :). Seriously, they are old enough to make decisions for themselves.
@ sharklasers:
Deb’s quote was still about protecting the children. What she is saying is that if the church doesn’t change it’s policies to better protect children, they may eventually lose insurance coverage due to the increased possibility of lawsuits. Churches had better start paying attention.
@ Julie Anne: I am sticking to the subject, I was providing some context to marge’s comments and how she hasn’t been fully transparent with everyone. the fact that she lets her very young children attend this horrid church is a bit of information that i believe reveals the seriousness she takes her own comments and perception.
@ Randall: ain’t that the truth Randall.
NO, Sharklaser – the issue is NOT about her adult children. Keep them out of it. That is inappropriate. Stop it NOW. I’m not going to be polite about this. You are crossing the line.
@ BeenThereDoneThat: that is why i was joking and not making that comment seriously. sorry for the jib
Shark, if Marge had not use her real name like you aren't doing, you could not have used her family against her publicly.
See, I already know how vicious you guys are when it comes to protecting the image of your bricks and mortar over innocent children which is why i am anon. Why don't you be as brave as Marge?
@ sharklasers:
” I know I am a sinner saved by grace and am not perfect, nor have perfect objective opinions, unlike some on here i realize that”
This was uncalled for. You are presuming to know the salvation status of others?
@ Julie Anne: well I’m glad that you can TYPE IN CAPS all you want, I will make all the comments I want to make. that is why this is a public forum. sorry. but when you put your name on something, you will be critiqued. If i were to of written this stuff, i would have to come to realization that if I am inconsistent on what I say and what I do…i may be called on it…and you can say “adult” children all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that they are still kids…
@ Bridget: nope i was stating that some seem to think they are perfect and have perfectly objective opinions…not their salvation status.
@ sharklasers: Well, you've given the many people worldwide and inside look at the mindset of a member of SGM's "family of churches." It's been very enlightening indeed. Interesting that you like to wave the "I'm a sinner" flag every time someone called you on something. I don't remember it being anything to brag about. Perhaps it will work in court?
@ Anon 1: I’m not using my real name like you aren’t “anon”….lol…how ironic…nor was I willing to put my name on a blog accusing crossway of something that had no bearing or relation to me personally. if I write a blog post calling out someone or some church, Ill use my real name, even if I used my real name you would have no clue who i am so that doesn’t really matter
@ BeenThereDoneThat: you forgot the best part of that statement…saved by grace…and i said that because I don’t claim to be perfect, and am willing to admit guilt, wrong doing, and sin, I’m not afraid of that reality and am mature enough to accept such things. don’t know how that is so “scandalous”
@ sharklasers:
This is only a public forum until Dee or Deb believe you have crossed a line in not showing appropriate concern for the victims of abuse.
EVERYONE READ THIS NOW
A basic rule here is you can argue points but not argue about the person. If you feel someone hasn’t made their point ask for details. But do NOT use inuendo to make your point.
sharklasers, you said.
blogs like these and forums have become a bastion of misinformation, gossip, an outright lies. Marge should have known better to post this 3rd person he said she said, “i talked to a friend of a cousin of a friend who was an usher a few years ago” stuff.
and
marge told half truths…and half truths never are right.
You are NOT allowed to make a statement like this without bringing up exactly what the misinformation, gossip, an outright lies, and half truths are.
EVERYONE ELSE
Quit the fighting. If you think someone is over the top, make a quick comment, maybe. BUT EMAIL US. And if someone goes off the rails at 3 AM our time we’ll clean it up in the morning. Everyone yelling about it just makes it worse.
Another rule here is that is not everyone’s job to pile on when someone crosses the line. And some of the piling on here is on the edge of the line if not over it.
I have more personal opinions on this but instead of keeping this going I’m closing comments for this post for the night so EVERYONE can cool off. We’ll clean things up in the morning and re-open comments as long as everyone can behave.
OK Everyone
I am now awake. I would not have shut the comments until I had dealt with sharklasers but GBTC did the best he could in the middle of the night. Comments on! And feel free to go at it. I am really upset about this.
CrossWay needs a better spokesperson. This is downright embarrassing. Where are the controlmeisters over there? He is not doing your case any good.
sharklasers
I am not at liberty to tell you anything beyond the following. I know who the people who made those statements are. And it is hardly third hand. And it will be embarrassing to CrossWay if their identities are known. However, due to the SGM penchant for shunning, “discipline,” and other garbage, those names will not be released unless I am subpoenaed.
And let me tell you this, if such an act were to take place, it would be the most enlightening move SGM has ever made.
I will be making a statement about this today.
Been There
This is precisely why I want everyone to see these comments. This is the “laser” look at the SGM that attracted my attention many years ago.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
shark lasers
Go at it. You are not doing your cause any good. When I went to bed last evening, I wanted to sleep on it. I have and I have decided to a make a statement about the statement. In fact, I had planned to let it drop but now I cannot.
You have lived in an SGM environment for a long time. So, when you read missives from your leaders, they sound normal. When I read the “explanation” I was startled. You see, there are elements of this that actually build up what Marge said, and in some respects, makes it even worse.
If this is what qualifies as an explanation, no wonder SGM is in trouble.
@ sharklasers:
sharklasers
Do not be a butt. Bridget mentioned a number of things in her comment. Objective opinions was one of those. I believe that such was directed at you, in spite of your concern about my reading comprehension.@ Bridget:
shark lasers
I have adult children. I would express my concerns with them and then would step back to let them make their own decisions. I am not into stripping panties off my adult kids and whopping them if you get my drift.
In fact, at a former church, my then 16 year old son stayed on for awhile in spite of my little dustup with the “leaders” over a pedophile deal. He knew my concerns and he wanted to stay with some friends. Oh, he also knew exactly what to do if approached by a pedophile…
Sounds to me like Marge is a great mother. She knows when to let go, unlike some control freaks who are into managing their kids into eternity.
Did you know that the Perfect Father did not control His own children and they rebelled? Adam and Eve were quite a handful but still beloved by God.
@ sharklasers:
shark lasers
I am impressed. It appears as if you can control 50 year old “kids.” Let me know how that goes… Even God didn’t do it.
@ Randall:
“This is precisely why I want everyone to see these comments. This is the “laser” look at the SGM that attracted my attention many years ago.”
Exactly. It is almost impossible to understand until you see it in action. the hard heartedness. The rationalization and the foundational thinking behind it. And when one comes from that world, they have been taught to think that way and hardly see other ways of thinking because that is their world.
The reason you do not see it from pastors is they are more polished, careful and isolated. They are “caring” for you or ‘serving’ you. But what we saw last night is how they think. Their actions proved it. The letter was CYA cos they got outed. But it was presented as a great thing by Shark. That is how he has been taught to think. Then we go to “I am a sinner saved by grace”. Well, stop sinning. What they are really saying if you strip it all away is that sinning is righteous because they get to admit they are. And all sins are equal.
I think Steph way above in comments nailed it about the letters. And I think SGM is so ingrained in this cultic way of viewing themselves that it could take years for those who are prone to follow man to deprogram themselves.
Way to go Step. Your comment was excellent.
The bottomline: Victims are non entities at SGM. I do wonder how much of that thinking comes from seeing women and children as lesser type beings. Men are exhalted at SGM.
“I am impressed. It appears as if you can control 50 year old “kids.” Let me know how that goes… Even God didn’t it”
LOL! Well, Dee in the hierarchical pecking world of SGM, who are the lowly pew sitters going to be boss over if their children are actually trained to be adults in the real world? They will leave home and take responsibility. You lose authority over someone. Gotta have authority over “someone”.
@ Julie Anne: Julie Anne
We are now experiencing what goes on in SGM. This is a tutorial, and I am “somewhat” grateful to sharklasers for exposing why all those churches are getting the heck out of Sovereign Grace Ministries and why there are so many people at SGM Survivors.
Good night!
I am taking my daughter to the airport and then getting a piece of fish for dinner. I will return. Keep the comments coming.
Marge
I am speechless! No wonder you got out of SGM. When they can’t get you on substance, they go for the kids. Dang, I am soooooo glad I never attended such a church. I would have caused quite a scene if sharklasers pulled that on me in a church. My “former” church can testify to the fact that I do go to the mat!
Hang in there Marge! They are exposing their underbelly. Dang, are they ever stupid? This exchange will go down in the books as a birds eye view into SGM and how they handle “conflict.” I owe you a dinner! You can also join me in my fortified bunker.
Marge,
I cannot get over how brave you are to use your real name. You do realize it is not over for you. I hope you have some supports close to you because I am well aware how viscious they are when their “image” is at stake. I get the feeling they have tried to present themselves as the “non SGM” now but the DNA of SGM was all over their letters and actions leading up to the letter.
They couldn’t care less for the little girl who was molested or any future victims. They do not really see molestation of a little child as that big of a deal, really. Just another sin cause we are all worms and cannot help ourselves except being able to obey the pastor. Then we have choice.
I just want you to know that the one thing they do is drag up any and every single piece of dirt they can on you to marginalize you so that you have no influence at all. It is how they survive these things; they create a false enemy. But sharklasers “dirt” actually helps to prove how ridiculous SGM is! He thinks it is horrible one does not control their adult kids. I have seen so much of these churches tearing families apart. It is amazing the pull they have where people’s friends and social life are.
There used to be a woman posting here whose daughter married a guy involved with Mars Hill. She was shunned by her daughter.
And this is where grace is so beautiful. No matter what, you will love them. You will be waiting with open arms for them just like our Father in heaven does for us.
Leaving SGM can be like leaving Scientology as some have told me who left.
Marge,
Please know that you are in my thoughts and prayers. Be strong!
I’m setting up the EChurch post this morning and choosing the songs. I am dedicating this one to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzIABaImiK4
You can only claim someone is dealing in ‘half-truths’ and ‘gossip’ if you are able to point out what exactly was a ‘half-truth’ or ‘gossip’. Just saying it is doesn’t make it so.
The letter was a fairly forthright response to the situation, but:
1. It’s more than three years too late,
2. They had to outed and dragged kicking and screaming before they would acknowledge the situation, and
3. Members are asked to show “compassion and care” for the molester, but where was the compassion and care for the members and their children? Hiding a molester in their midst is neither compassionate nor caring regardless of what the powers that be might be conditions that are ‘good enough’ in their own mind.
Were it not for Marge, Dee, Deb and others, that letter would never have been written much less sent. I thank God for people like this that who are willing to shine a spotlight onto the dark side of Christianity and let everyone know when church leadership is endangering others.
Sharklaser –
@ Nickname:
The link in Nickname’s comment went to a 200 page report and is the 5th edition entitled
“Child Molesters: A Behavioral Analysis
For Professionals Investigating the Sexual Exploitation of Children”
It is produced by The Department of Justice.
Like I said, the government, and secular organizations that work with children, are far ahead of churches in understanding pedaphalia and knowing “what to do” to protect children. This is God’s common grace to us all I believe. They certainly know to care for the well being of children, who are or could become future victims, before the well being of the abusers. And don’t misunderstand, I’m for repentance and change for the abuser — just not at the expense of possible further abuse. Children’s safety does not need to be sacrificed for the sake of the repentant abuser nor for the sake of the Gospel. On the other hand, concern for reputation of man and protection of “branding” for organizations can be sacrificed.
sharklasers wrote:
I wonder if you saw this post above:@ PhillyInDC:
I thought it was a beautiful example of someone who truly recognizes that they are a sinner saved by grace. Not that I believe drinking alcohol is a sin. I drink occasionally myself. But, in excess, it can be harmful to the drinker, and to others if said drinker, say, gets behind the wheel of a car. Someone who recognizes their potential for harm will take the necessary steps to prevent that from happening. Does that mean we never “fall?” No, but we will go down fighting. The “sinner saved by grace” card is not synonymous with a “get out of jail free” card. The “scandal” comes in when someone uses that phrase to avoid taking the necessary steps to protect other innocent people (children) from future harm. You have a convicted pedophile in CrossWay. ALL necessary steps, including informing the parents with children at CrossWay, should be taken to insure everyone’s safety while said pedophile receives ministry there.
Dee, Deb, Anyone –
A few weeks ago someone named “Lisa” was posting on a particular thread. Does anyone remember what SGM church she was from?
JeffT wrote:
But “EES PARTY LINE, COMRADE!”
(Just like 2 + 2 = 5. L!L!B!B!)
Bridget,
I read through Lisa’s comments, and she did not identify her church as far as I can tell.
Anon 1 wrote:
From the newspaper comic strip “Beetle Bailey” many-many years ago:
The General screams at the Colonel.
The Colonel screams at the Major.
The Major screams at the Captain.
The Captain screams at the Lieutenant.
The Lieutenant screams at Sgt Snorkel.
Sgt Snorkel screams at Private Bailey.
Private Bailey kicks the barracks’ dog.
Marge is very brave. She elected to reveal her identity around the time she initiated the appeal to national Christian leaders. It puts her in a very vulnerable situation because anyone who knows Marge or her family can take low blows under a pseudonym just as Shark-soothsayer-whatever that name is- tried to do. Marge, you must know, when they take low blows like that, you touched a nerve. You have become a threat to the entire SGM system by speaking in truth and not hiding behind a fake name as that Shark dude has done. You always have a place to vent with me.
The issue with your adult children and allowing them to go to the church of their choice – – to me that showed how healthy YOU are. We’ve seen the pattern of parents in the SGM system who won’t allow their adult children to make their own decisions, to leave the home, to get jobs, to go to college. Bravo to you!
dee wrote:
You DO know Spanking Fetish is one of the more common sexual paraphilias, don’t you? And under the name “Erotic Flagellation”, it WAS the number-one kink among Respectable Victorian Men.
This might be from 20 years porn exposure in Furry Fandom, but every time I hear of “stripping panties off my adult kids and whopping them”, I keep thinking the real reason is the spanker’s sexual kink. As Driscoll’s “Visions” have shown, it IS possible to camouflage your kinks with a Christianese coat of paint to the point you can’t even admit them to yourself.
P.S. Everyone I’ve mentioned the “stripping panties off my adult kids and whopping them” has had the same response: “The Guy’s Kinky.”
@ Deb:
What thread was that Deb? I remember she was careful to identify which “Lisa” she was without giving her last name. It was as if she knew people from her church would be reading here and she wanted to be clear about who she was.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I have to say when I read the SGM account of an adult male, Tomczak, spanking an adult woman, I knew there had to be more going on than corporal punishment. It is wrong on so many levels.
Well I only just got to see all this & Dee is right, it is an education.
Firstly: that poor child. Abused by her father at the age of 5. Appalling. I hope her Mum remarries & she gets a decent Step-Dad. When I think of her, I don’t feel so concerned for her Dad (not sorry about that)& certainly not inclined to be worrying about his future rather than hers.
I find it ASTONISHING that the magnitude of this guy’s sins has not been made clearer to the people at is church before now…to abuse your own 5 yr old daughter so badly you are not allowed to see her is quite something, & it absolutely has bearing on how he should be handled, even if repentent, & even if he has a girlfrined/new wife (which I also find astonishing).
The pertinent facts are:
The very young age of the child. Five, just five. Totally pre-pubescent, no hint of adulthood whatsoever.
The fact that it was his daughter.
The fact that his abuse was severe enough that he is never again allowed to see her as a child.
There is a WORLD of psycho-sexual weirdness in there, & I can only hope, for the sake of other children, not least of all any future children he may have, that he is recieving proper psychiatric treatment. For any of that to have occurred means something is seriously wrong, & this will not have been magically removed by conversion, nor by marriage, although I understand the ‘christian marriage solves all sexual sin’ is prevalent in that environment. How does that reflect back on his first marriage?
There is a huge amount of wishful thinking, but not a lot of wisdom in the response from the church, both in what they did & now in sending out these letters. I can totally understand them wanting to help him all they can as a repentent sinner, but at the same time they seem to be underestimating what it really means to be a paedophile. And I think that’s true in large swathes of the church – we so want to believe God can & does change everything profoundly, but research shows that this one is a very tough one to crack. I’m not sure there is any such thing as a former paedophile, any more than there is a former alcoholic. There are non-drinking alcoholics…there are non-offending paedophiles. And it is such a heinous crime with such an enormous price for the victim/s to pay. And they should be trusted with children the same way an alcoholic should be trusted with alcohol, for a lifetime. Sad, but true.
It’s a shame it takes making something public on the internet to bring about awareness & actions that should have been done years ago. That same church may have downplayed the dangers from some of its congregation towards its children with many other individuals, as many churches are currently doing. It’s time they took notice. And sharklasers – just because the offence was not against a child at the church does not mean, in any way, shape or form, that the children in the church are safe, or that it’s none of your business. There still exists, objectively, under God, a molested child. If you had a repentant rapist in your congregation, & you fell bang slap into the middle of his ‘former’ target group, would you consider that a) you are safe, & b)any woman he offended against is none of your business?
I’ll say it again – abused children are everyone’s business. They are human beings, whether church kids or christian kids or muslim kids, or any kids at all, they are all made in the image of God & we are to love them as ourselves…which also includes protecting them from convicted abusers, whether inside or outside the church.
Bridget wrote:
I read the posts here but don’t always keep up with the comments. We’re at the Apex, NC church….still hoping our church will leave SGM (I realize this is so much a long shot it’s laughable). Check out who’s preaching this Sunday http://sovgracenc.org/our-life/newsletter/
I believe Lisa claimed to be from an SGM church in either Apex or Durham but I may be wrong.
@ Bridget:
Hi, Lisa. Will you be able to sit through that?!?! I noticed that they didn’t post what he is preaching on.
sharklasers wrote:
I tried to respond to this comment last night but it wouldn’t post. (I must have been typing at the point of shut down.) I decided it was worth a redo.
The response above is just, well, backwards. If a person called my church pastor and had questions or concerns about, or even mentioned the word pedophile, I would want them to respond immediately to the phone call and see what the person wanted. I mean, really, what if they had information about someone who was attending your church that might be molesting children. This is EXACTLY what a pastor should be concerned about and immediately checking into. He shouldn’t ignore the call or assume he knows what the call us about, or be in fear of the call. What does “care for the flock” mean?
Bridget wrote:
Not sure. We actually were planning to skip it…thought it would be a good morning to check out another church, but then realized we have an obligation that morning and need to be at church.
They don’t usually announce what guest speakers are preaching on. But, it’s usually not part of the regular sermon series we’re in.
Reading what shark wrote reminded me how lots of people from clc have responded over the years to those who have criticized pastors and leaders. There has been an attitude of harsh defending of them.
In my opinion, there is a cast system in sgm. You’re on the upwardly mobile list, or the f list, or somewhere in between. If you’re upwardly mobile, then maybe you will fight harder to stay there. I personally found clc to be a dog eat dog world, and men definitely rule. Also people would be upheld for unknown reasons, or knocked out, somehow. I began to see that nothing made sense.
Marge, you are brave. Thank you.
Shark- are you even a parent? Not that I really want to know because I don’t want to discuss it.
@ dee:
THIS! I just cant. I dont even understand. I haz questions. Like yes, how DO you EVEN sleep with a man who has sexually molested his own child? Do we need to consider what actually happens there? How is that simply “falling”.
The fact that the church “failed” (I’ll use their word there, but in truth, it was deliberate) deliberately chose not to alert all of the parents including the childcare ministry is entirely suspect. Why the hell not, Micky!?! Shouldn’t the freakin’ childcare workers know this dude shouldn’t be in their quarters? WTF!
And I’m sorry, but I dont feel sorry for this dudes wife. She willingly married a pedophile. What the hell is wrong with her? People are just UGH! Desperate. So darn desperate. How messed up can you be?!
@ dee:
Dee–I know you dont mean to be comical but your posts have me over here crying. I mean, on the phone, you have this sweet little southern lady voice, but GAWD! You’re a beast! I never would EVEN with you!
That is all.
Carry on.
Per the adult children thing:
1. If they’re 18, they’re old enough to help choose the next president of the United States, run for some local public offices, and join the military. I think they’re old enough to choose their own church. Also the parents can’t legally control them anymore.
2. To my knowledge, in churches that practices confirmation (Catholic, Lutheran, etc.), you’re considered an independent “adult” in the church as soon as you publicly own your Christian faith at confirmation. In the Lutheran church this happens around 13-15 years of age. So I’ve been able to vote in church matters, as a believer independent from my parents, since I was 15. At that point the only thing limiting my choice of church is the ability to drive. My parents no longer have any “authority” to direct my spiritual decisions. At least that was how it worked in my family.
@ Bridget:
Ha! Bridge, Shark would be leery of someone calling a church asking about a ped in their midst? Hmmmm… I would be leery if someone called and asked me if my fridge was running. But what’s to be leery about if someone called and asked if there was a ped there? That is not normal prankster behavior. It is so outside of what is the norm, that I would be seriously concern and address and listen to what the person has to say? Like, (1) why are you asking me this? (2) Do you know of such a person and such a conviction, (3) Can you prove this? (4) Thank you for notifying us. We will investigate. How may we contact you in the future if we have more questions?
The “leery”ness in this instance is focused in the wrong direction. I’d be “leery” that there was some ped in my church and a lil freaked out, to be honest. Some questioning, SERIOUS questioning, would be going on.
Does anyone know of a church anywhere that has been transparent with the congregation about the presence of a convicted sex offender? In my entire church-going career, and I’m no spring chick, I have never seen or heard such a thing. I would love to hear about how other churches have been transparent about these situations, so please chime in if you know of something.
Several years ago, my church received a letter from another church in town. They sent this letter to all the area churches, to let them know that a convicted sex offender had been seen in their church and in another local church, even in the children’s area — he was not a member of either church. They were alarmed enough to call police. They made it clear that their policy was to welcome the offender to worship, but that he would be accompanied whenever in the church, not allowed in the children’s area, and would not be allowed to talk to or have contact with children.
In my entire life, this is the only warning I have ever seen that alerted people to the presence of a convicted sex offender ANYWHERE.
Any other information about sex offenders in the church came after the guys had committed crimes and were sent to jail/prison.
Fortunately, I grew up never knowing that such offenses even existed outside of stranger danger. Sadly, my own children had to learn because a man they considered a friend molested a church child, and it was found that he had a heinous criminal record and had served a prison sentence. Even more horrible, his church victim had to learn first hand. How I wish they could’ve remained blissfully protected from such perversion. Between that guy and the news coverage of Bill Clinton’s extracurricular activities, my kids learned far too much detail about those things far too early for my taste.
Perhaps someone could create a database of known offenders and churches they attend?
I think the only way to know for sure if your church has a convicted sex offender attending is to search the sex offender registry in your area. I truly believe that most pastors are unaware; if they do know, they have no clue what to do. Crossway could’ve saved themselves the embarrassment of all this had they created and published a policy, received congregational input on it, tweaked it, then followed it to the letter. Had their policy said “if we have a sex offender attending church, we will do x, y, & z”, and the congregation had approved that policy, they wouldn’t be in this mess.
And again, the convicted sex offenders in this day and age, because of the internet and the sex offender registry, are the devils we know. The devils we don’t know are the ones sitting in the pews, watching for opportunities, grooming families and victims. Those are the ones we need to be vigilant about.
In reading the 200 page document about sex offender behavior, I became bleary eyed — but also much more educated, but it’s only the tip of the iceberg. I don’t know what applies in the case of the Crossway guy. But the author explains that not all child molesters are pedophiles. Some are normally attracted to adults, but will offend against anyone who is available regardless of age; or might offend against a child in order to ‘get back’ at a wife, etc.
The point is that parents, pastors, leaders, security personnel — everyone — must be aware that people anywhere are potential dangers to children, and every possible precaution must be taken to protect them. Even then, there is no way to completely insulate them.
Per posting the child molester’s photo in church, I know that I personally have a lot of trouble remembering faces and connecting them to names. There’s a chance, if the impression made was not strong enough, that I might forget his face and let him into the nursery, Sunday school area, etc. because I honestly didn’t remember. So for those of us who do not have seemingly eidetic face memory, having a constant reminder of what the molester looks like is potentially VERY important.
@ Hester: Not only that… it’s easy (for men especially) to alter their “look.” (Clean-shaven man in pic grows sideburns, longer hair, cuts hair short, grows beard or mustache, changes glasses, starts wearing contacts… lots of possibilities there).
I’ve just added a new question to ask when looking for a church: What is your policy on child protection and convicted sex offender involvement?
I can’t even read anymore of Shark’s comments. They are very sad and disturbing.
Altogether, it would serve Crossway right if they got sued for putting people’s kids in danger. They were completely aware of such danger, and refused to let others know that such a danger existed. Who cares if they believe they did their best. They also willingly deceived people too.
@ Nickname:
In these dire times, NN, you might want to also follow that up with, “…and what is your personal opinion on it?” It seems that even if there are such policies, people’s personal opinions and beliefs cloud their good judgement and even such protocols that may be in place.
Trinia,
What you said is why I believe insurance companies are going to have to implement new requirements for coverage.
When pastors deliberately withhold important information about convicted sex offenders, they put the congregation and the insurance carrier at great risk.
Dear Marge,
We paid our daughters and their husbands to leave CLC along with us when we left. You know all that tithe money you gave so generously over the years that allowed us to buy our children’s loyalty? Thank you. There’s no doubt they followed the money.
My children also know that if they hadn’t followed us to Louisville they would have been cut off. My husband would have never tolerated anything less than full and complete compliance. And the boys all knew they owed us for all the free vacations, free golf outings, free houses, and all the money we’ve given the girls so they’ve been essentially self-supported (compared to all the other SGM women that have been told to stay at home and never work and depend solely upon the income of their husbands.) Everyone knows that’s never been the case for my girls. We are the Sugar Mama, the Sugar Daddy, and the Sugar Grandparents. And we will never let our girls work outside their homes. It would ruin everything. (Besides, that’s what the Trust Funds are for.)
So, thank you for having served us. If your family has suffered any hardship as a result of their SGM involvement, all I can say is, ”Sorry for you.” To quote my dear friend Julie Kaufman, ‘I love my life!’
Nickname,
That’s a great question! We all have to stop being so trusting of church leaders. It’s time to ask the hard questions.
Eagle,
You are an inspiration to us, too! You’ve come a long way since you first showed up on our virtual doorstep, and I’m very proud of you!
@ Eagle: Eagle, those people are delusional. That's all. What else is there to be said? That they would even dare to believe that the same people who bought hook, line and sinker into a system of beliefs are all of a sudden, poof! changed? Really? That alone tells me how much the church DOESN'T know about psychology, social systems, and religious ones.
—> SGM deliberately chosing not to alert all of the parents including the childcare ministry at this N.C. Sovereign Grace Ministries affiliated church is entirely suspect.
Bingo!
Q: Had an encounter with a pedophile at your SGM church? You may be entitled to a compensation! Certainly your personal story is worth a look. SGM class action lawsuit Attorney Susan Burke in the nation’s capitol, should be notified.
SGM, hmmm… this is just another brick in he wall.
No one is this s-t-u-p-i-d. Period.
This HAS got to be about $$$ and protecting their precious SGM name brand.
(They apparently have entirely trapped themselves within their own psyco-theo-religious-baggage.)
A ‘deathwish’ perhaps?
What is simply so tragic is that SGM is eating itself from the inside, kinda like a large case of worms. Left to its own devices, SGM would destroy itself. As it has been pointed out earlier, in other posts, SGM is a deathwish, as it’s philosophy is sin, sin-sniffing, and navel gazing, preaching a relief that only comes from centralized topdown control.
In the end the remedy SGM offers simply kills the patient.
Slow but sure. We have been seeing the results for the past twenty or so years..
…have we not?
Yet, what more will it take to persuasively throttle back this dang thing?
I have a pastor friend who simply will not tale SGM refugees, simply won’t.
Why Not?
He tells them politely, he is not qualified to assist with the detox and damage control this SGM refugee and his family are going to really need.
Sad.
Leading one to the plain simple truth, this SGM psyco-theo-religious stuff is absolutely and positively quite deadly!
(toxic symbol goes here)
But Wartburg Watch readers already know dat.
Is SGM da proverbial ‘Nukes Of Religious Hazard’ ?
hmmm…
could b.
(Sadface)
Sopy
—
Trina wrote:
What is crazy about this situation is the fact that SGM got so involved and encouraged the marriage. Now, what’s important to consider that this couple drank the Kool-Aid. They probably convinced her that because he had repented that all was well. We have to keep in mind the culture here. I don’t know what led her to have a relationship with this guy in the first place, but surely SGM leaders did not help the situation.
@ Eagle: Oh and that article you posted from Christian Monist is very insightful pointing to a larger issue within Christianity to mistake the reality of real people, with real situations and feelings and experiences with that of a perceived or desired holiness or godliness that in a lot of cases, just kinda doesn’t exist. I love that he basically says it’s a fantasy.
I find it troubling that if you google pastor arrested, like he said, you get all kinds of pastors being arrested, in particular, for sexual crimes. It is my opinion and belief that there are issues inherent within Christianity that make all of this possible…and a problem. There’s a whle lot more to be said in response to that, and I wont tackle that here. But it sure is something to think about. You’d think Christians woudl listen to Jesus more, but they don’t. Instead, they listen to their pastors. Jesus said something to the affect of trust no man, call no man teacher. Pastor’s say, trust us. We know what is better for you than you know for yourself. Call me pastor/elder/leader/authority. Either pastor’s make Jesus out to be a liar, or Jesus makes pastors to be liars. But we can’t have it both ways, now can we?
Time for a tee-shirt idea: Who’s Word do you believe? Your Pastor or Christ?
Hmmm… ??
@ Julie Anne: JA, you are right. It is the sick-twisted thinking of such people. That woman's mind is gone. What woman wants a man who put his nasty-bits into a child? I'm sorry to be graphic here, but that's the reality of what we are discussing.
We are discussing men using their hands and body parts to fondle, penetrate and have sex with children. People really need to think about that and let their minds go there to understand the horror of that act. In one instance, the church wants us to believe that the act of two people's sexual organs coming into contact before marriage is the most heinous and almost unforgivable thing a person can do, and for a woman, it dehumanizes you and robs you of any value and personhood you have without possible restoration–making you unfit for marriage and unsuitable lacking anyone who would desire you.
So why on earth is it not horrific just the same, when an adult's fingers, hands, body parts, sexual organs have come in contact with a child with whom THEY CANNOT marry? I am stumped. This woman is certifiable. She's a brainless individual to allow someone to convince her to even have a relationship with such a person. I pray that the Lord closes her womb and she is never to bear any children in this marriage. Neither one of them, her or her husband, should have children. Neither of them are fit or mentally able to care for a child. That should be the most obvious.
Dear Carolyn Mahommeny,
You are welome for all my tithes for years. Also for my sacrifice of decades of my life to be an audience to your empire. Katharine Ross would be proud.
Oh and let me point out the greater issue is that men are valued far and beyond that of women and children in this religion, and in this particular sect of Christianity. This man’s value has been placed above and beyond the woman that he married because he shouldn’t have married her, and she should’ve have been convinced to marry him. But something tells me that like most of the desperate women in churches like SGM, she didn’t need a ton of convincing, and (2) his value was placed far above the child he did violate and any potential children he could violate including all of the children of the “willfull lack of notification” parents and teachers within that congregation.
This has nothing to do with forgiveness, restoration, godliness, holiness, etc… It is simple, point blank, because he is a man and his value and agency exists far above and beyond anyone else’s. His humanity is recognized while others’ humanity is robbed from them and they being made mere animals.
Oh and not that we dont have enough stories to break our hearts, this is heartbreaking: http://johnshore.com/2013/03/07/a-christianity-to-make-satan-proud/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Johnshorecom+%28JohnShore.com%29&utm_content=Yahoo!+Mail
sharklasers wrote:
This isn’t a game of catch up, and it didn’t just start 5-10 years ago. That’s extremely naive to think such a thing.
Do you seriously think it was just Catholics that hid this type of thing? No way!
Children from all walks of life that are now adults are speaking out about what happened to them, and how their places of worship swept it under the carpet. You have organizations that helped missionaries with care for their children while on the mission field now having to apologize because they did the same thing. You have children’s homes run by churches rampant with abuses of all sorts. You have adults that have left the church is droves, because they were told they must have DONE something to attract the monster than hurt them. Goodness – there are TONS of material that goes WAY back before 5-10 years ago.
So YEAH the church should have been better prepared. They choose not to due to some strange ‘image’ deal they have. I have heard all kinds of silly excuses for WHY they hide this type of thing. The stupid excuses have been going on for decades, and when they pull something like this? Its breaks the bond of trust.
The pedophile made choices, and he will live with this for the rest of his life. Churches are well aware of the failed record in the past, and should be going above and beyond. The letter in question should have gone out a long time ago, and it only went out after some facebook conversations. That’s called admitting something because they have to now. Don’t think it won’t have some fallout either!
The trust would have been broken if the pedophile didn’t mention his crime until he had to, and yet its okay for the church to do the same. That is just silly.
As a church you have people coming from all over to attend, and you really don’t know what county registers to check online due to this. So it is the church’s responsibility to let parents know. I mean lets be honest here – they were afraid people were going to freak out, and didn’t want to deal with it. That’s why they were silent, and in the current atmosphere of pedophile’s in the church in the news constantly now? It was stupid move, and they can’t ‘spiritualize’ themselves out of it. This church also is going to have to face their consequences, and it just might cost them some membership as well.
Eagle wrote:
To which I add a hearty, “Eshet Chayil!”
@ Trina:
Exactly this Trina! Exactly. The churches where this kind of crap goes down would think nothing of disciplining consenting adults who were having sex…but some how raping kids is okay? And I could not be more with you on wondering how anyone willingly has sex with someone they know has forced sexual attention onto a child… What possible reason could that person come up with that could block that out?
Looking for You wrote:
I blog over at Blogger.com, and it’s pretty easy to set up. (I’m at http://allynsalley211.blogspot.com. Just a note, I write about everything from a Christian conservative point of view.)
Nickname wrote:
While this isn’t about sexual abuse in particular, it’s the same principle:
When I went to my 20-year high school reunion, it was held at a place that had a pool. The policy was that someone had to keep an eye on the kids at all times . . . and to do so, they had a badge that could be worn around the neck identifying who it was that was watching the kids in the pool. (This was in addition to the parents who were watching their kids.)
If the badge policy hadn’t been in place, it very easily could have turned into a situation like you describe: everyone assumes everyone is watching, and it turns out that no one is watching. In both cases, it could lead to a form of drowning.
Trina wrote:
1) If her church is male-supremacist, she may have been pre-conditioned to be Godly/Sweet, Winsome, and Submissive no matter what. “WOMAN, SUBMIT!” And with male-supremacist ideology comes a corollary of children as property — especially female children.
2) Maybe he’s such a good lay that it justified anything; I think this comes into play on some secular abuse situations, so why not here?
3) He may have groomed her as a third-party for access to the target kid. This relates back to (1). And could relate to the Pastor, too. If Pastor is a Pastor-Dictator, invoke “WOMAN, SUBMIT!” on steroids plus invoking God as justification.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
When I was taking RCC Cathechism in the late Eighties, the priest in charge of the class had a favorite expression:
“Sin is not only morally wrong, but if you view it from the Outside it’s also Terminally Dumb.”