Being single doesn't always mean you are available, sometimes you have to put a DO NOT DISTURB sign on your heart.link
Yesterday, I highlighted a quote from Al Mohler who implied that one needs to be married to be a pastor or his ministry will not be as effective. In fact, he seemed to imply that being married with children will insure the highest efficacy potential of a pastor.
I won't argue that Jesus was single because we can get off on some fascinating theological tracks and the Gospel of Thomas will likely make an appearance. Voila! We will be off topic. I am determined to stick to the knitting out of respect for the single people who deserve our focus!
However, Paul not only was single, but was arguable the most prolific apostle and church planter in the history of the faith. He commended singleness as an asset to ministry, something that Al Mohler denies. I have been dying to say this for awhile. Mohler is simply unbiblical in his application!
It is important to note that this perspective on singles is not limited to the Calvinista camp. It is even found in more moderate circles. A female pastor wrote an article in the Associated Baptist Press, here, titled Why Are You Still Single?
At the same time, the process was a painful one on a personal level. I expected to run into questions about my age and experience. After all, I was fresh out of seminary with many years of internships and part-time service in the church but no full-time experience. For obvious reasons, I was also prepared and re-prepared to run into questions about my gender.
What caught me by surprise were all of the questions about why I am single (which I know is an extension of the gender issue). Almost every church I interviewed with asked me some version of “why are you still single?”
Some simply seemed curious. Others asked it in such a way that implied that being 25 and single is a major character flaw (why are you still single?). I had direct questions about my dating life, sexuality and all sorts of other things that I had difficulty imagining would make a significant difference in how I minister.
I found myself getting defensive about these questions and had to do some exploring about my own response. I did not fit what search committees imagined their new minister to look like, and I began internalizing the insecurities of the committees as they interviewed me. Do married ministers get asked questions about why they are married?
Yesterday, I highlighted a post by Collin Hansen which gave a unexpected (and most likely, unintended ) insight into the problem with assumptions regarding singles called Singleness Is Not a Curse link. Despite the title, he went on to discuss homosexuality exclusively.
More than ever, we need to learn from the example and counsel of Christians who have fought in the grace of God and power of the gospel to pursue holiness and shun the temptation of homosexuality.
Hansen spoke highly of Christopher Yuan, who is a celibate homosexual and has an inspiring testimony. You can read his story here. As an aside, I do not want to get into the homosexual debate. I have made my view clear and you can search for it under our series on homosexuality. I want to focus on singles.
Singleness is often treated as a "fail" by the church.
Nevertheless, Hansen may have inadvertently admitted to the real problem within the church when he says that singleness is not a curse. Why? Whoever said it was a curse? Is there an undercurrent that singleness is considered "a fail" within the church community? I believe this to be the case. The testimony of singles, along with pronouncements from Al Mohler and others, indicate that singleness is not a good thing if one wishes to minister, or be in leadership, within the church. I will discuss this more next week.
1. Singleness
Singles are very different. Here are a few categories. I bet there are more, please feel free to add to this list.
- heterosexual singles by choice,
- homosexual singles by choice,
- asexual singles by choice,
- heterosexuals single by default,
- homosexual singles by default
- widows and widowers
- divorced
- single parents
When a church or blogger wishes to address this issue in a sensitive manner, one should address these differences.
2. Not a Curse
Being single is not a curse if a church behaves biblically. However, it is a curse if one listens carefully to the stories of many single people stuck in churches that glorify those that are married, with children. Such churches do not recognize the individual gifting of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.
I Corinthians 14 link discusses the distribution of gifts. Where in this passage does it say that these gifts are given on the basis of marital status? Oh yeah, 1 Corinthians was written by Paul, a single apostle.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
12 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body.17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
It is evident that God has given all Christian certain gifts. Therefore, any church which limits a person from serving on the basis of marital status is deliberately ignoring the Bible. In other words, the body of Christ is impoverished if we do not utilize the wonderful gifts the Spirit is pouring into our single brothers and sisters.
Of course, the "gotcha" passage is Titus 1:6 (NIV).
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
Carefully look at that passage. It says a husband of but one wife. Polygamous husbands need not apply. This does not refer to singles. It is also important to note that PAUL wrote Titus as well.
So, perhaps singleness is a curse in some churches if one is like the Apostle Paul, and wants to be a pastor or church leader.
3. Marginalization of singles
A recurring theme in many of the emails that we received had to do with single people feeling marginalized by their church.
Here is a heartfelt comment from one single.
Overlooked, left out, abandoned, forgotten, ignored, rejected, exclusion, avoided, judged and HAVING NO VOICE!!!!!!! Even when you use your voice no one listens so, you are NOT HEARD!!!!!
Often judged with "They're gay" or "something must be wrong with them" comments as to why we are still single!!!I don't want to walk around telling everyone or justifying things, but I sometimes do and I'm going to proceed to do that here: childhood sexual abuse, alcoholic father, guy that I was going to marry(we talked about it all the time) after college he cheated on me with a good friend at undergrad school! I then said "forget it" regarding the marriage/guy thing and went into grad school and wouldn't date(significantly hard program) and focused on career, dated for about 3 years and then had major neck injury/surgery and then, had cancer surgery. So, I've had a crazy time frame here of not being able to date at all!!! So, when people judge without know my story OR just simply, knowing ME!!!Maybe more pain and anger than you wanted for your singles blog, but it is definitely where I am at right now!!!! I HATE IT!!!!!!!
I am stunned to believe that churches invest so much in children's ministry, college ministry, and family centered ministries and then if you don't get your MRS or MR in college (Bible college that is) you fall into a black hole.
As a 46 year old single mom of a grown daughter I am tired of being relegated to the back seat of Christian ministry because I am single and because I am female.
I am tired of being marginalized as a single and as woman and I am delighted to learn that this is not how God intended it to be. I do believe that the journey I took to get here is important and that God cares about the journey. I am not in the waiting room of God's Will. He is directing my path and using me to minister to others (mostly women) who have been marginalized as well.
Me: This says that women's classes are full. Can I still attend? I am visiting.
Desk woman: Sorry, they are full.
Me: Well, I am single, but I am 33. Where shall I go?
Desk woman: Well, Singles is for people over 40. You could try Young Marrieds.
Me: But I am not married. I guess I fit in college and career.
Desk woman: Well, we have to have an age cut-off in there, or else men who are too old keep hanging around.
Me: So, where do I go?
Desk woman: I guess you have to go to seniors.
Me: But I am not 65.
Desk woman: They won't care.
During the Sunday morning infomercial, the pastor announced in his usual animated style that we’d be finishing our current sermon series on something-or-other in two weeks and then – wait for it – a six week series on improving your marriage! Oh, this would be a really great time to explore all those issues that can trip us up, hold us back, weigh us down. So get ready. Bliss and blessing on the way … yes, this was go-ing to be a-maz-ing!
I glanced around to see what kinds of responses this was getting. The couples in our midst certainly seemed enthused. And then my sight landed on some fellow singles. They certainly didn’t seem amused. Talk about “flat affect” or even sadly looking down at the carpet. So much for being postmodernly inclusive, I thought.
So I did what any good consultant would do. I embarrassed the pastor – good naturedly, of course – to help him feel the effect of his spiritual faux pas. I went up to him during the break and said, “So, the next sermon series sounds cool! And are you going to do a six-week series for us single people after that?”
His smiling face went blank, then scrunched into a quizzical look. “Well, no …”
“Oh! Okay,” I chirped. “Well, then, I guess you won’t mind if all of us [and then I rattled off a series of names of very active single adults in the church] go somewhere else for the next couple months, since there won’t be anything for us here, right?”
“Well, no … this is your church. We’re here for you guys, too!”
Rightee-oh. I noted his use of the eunuch term, guys, to describe the gender amorphous lot of us. Plus I noticed that his expression had gone from scrunched-up eyebrows to wide-eyed shock and his color had flushed to a rosy pink.
That did the trick. The pastor got the message that his seeker-sensitive [for married folk only] series was a rather tweaker-insensitive [to the rest of us] move. At least he was willing to work with us to figure out a way to include singles in the series. As it turned out, a group of us who were never married or were single again did a panel interview for the entire sermon period one Sunday. We shared what it’s like to be single in the midst of mostly marrieds and families, and how lonely that can be, and how we don’t like to be set up for Marriage Match-Up Ministry, but how we appreciate being included in the lives of families and couples, and what we as single people bring to the table – when we’re allowed to – for friendships, for extended families, and for ministries.
And many people, married couples included, commented on what a great affirmation it had been (for those who already included us) or what an important reminder it had been (for those who needed to include us). If nothing else, at least we singles were no longer The Invisible Man/Woman who needed to find a spouse [read that as be helped to find a spouse] so we could get a “real” life. And oh, yes, as a bonus application, the pastor became a bit more sensitive in his selection of sermon series to try to be more relevant and inclusive to all.
Next week we will discuss more topics surrounding the plight of singles in today's churches. In the meantime, I think we all can learn something from this funny video which deal with stupid things people say to single people.
Lydia's Corner: Joshua 3:1-4:24 Luke 14:7-35 Psalm 80:1-19 Proverbs 12:27-28
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That video was great. I think I’ll tweet it to Hansen.
On a more serious note: I appreciate the story at the end about the pastor and the marriage series. At least some singles were given the opportunity to share their perspective. I’m glad Brad spoke up.
If I am completely honest, I don’t understand why pastors give sermon series on marriage. I think it is indulgent and perhaps the most surefire way to alienate a good portion of their congregation. Maybe this is one reason why I appreciate the homilies in my parish: there are no series of any kind.
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I don’t get the hype for segregated ministry. The more you segregate the greater risk of just becoming “self help” for all your life issues, whether it is marriage, children, or singleness, whatever. I think it hurts way more than it helps the body of Christ. I have the same reservations about youth ministry (and we wonder why young adults have a hard time finding their place in the church once they turn 18!)
My husband and I find married groups really boring anyways.
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Dee,
This post reminded me of why I sooo love this blog. People using their brains!
Paul and Jesus were single. The END! Anything added to that is equivocating.
Thanks for your brain!!
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As a homeschooler, can I just add how much of a public school “grades” mindset is behind that conversation with the receptionist? God forbid the eighth graders mix with the seventh graders…or the “young marrieds” with the young singles. Sad that when people try to ditch this mindset, they swing all the way to the FIC.
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Also, totally correct that singles groups seem to be either exclusively 20-somethings or 45+. It’s like people in their 30s don’t exist or something.
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Vid was funny. Man I feel for anyone defined by anything besides their name.
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As a woman and a widow, I was so tired of being marginalized in my church that I stopped attending. I have not attended any service since June, and did not even attend on Christmas. Every time I think of finding a new church, my anxiety is so great that heart pounds so fast I can hardly breathe, even as I write this. Then I decide that I will wait until later.
The world has many problems and is not always kind, but in the world as a single, widowed woman I have so many opportunities for fellowship and ministry. In the church, I have none. I am so much happier now that I am not attending church. I do not have to worry every Sunday who will be rude to me and who will shun me. I do not have to analyze what I can do differently at church or wonder what is wrong with me. Life is good and full of promise.
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Seems to me that if each of us concentrate on being the christian that God wants us to be, which is in the bible, then all these “self help” sermons on marriage, raising kids, etc. would be moot. Marriage would automatically be healthy.
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This stuff happens at work, too. I married when I was 33 and before that it was always, oh send her on that trip, she does not have kids. The singles were expected to work late and travel more. So then you leave work and go to church to find yourself in the midst of more folks who think you are some sort of cultural anomaly with no life.
Does anyone else find it strange we do not have any more than a few references to the Apostles married lives? Who do we know was married for sure? Some say that Paul WAS married at one time because Pharisees got married young and perhaps his wife died or something. I don’t buy that. We do know Peter was married and not home a lot and perhaps traveling around the country with Jesus and WOMEN both married and unmarried like Mary M and Joanna. Yikes! What do they do with stuff like this?
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LOVE that video!
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That vid is HILARIOUS!!!!
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Hey Anon 1
Where are the praises to their wives that I read over at the TGC blog “Married to the woman that I do not deserve” comments?
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As a young aromantic asexual women, I want to thank you Dee for including us in your post! It can be a bit rough trying to tell folks that I’m not interested in the male sex, or the female, for that matter. 🙂
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AlaskAnna
I spoke of you on the blog a couple fo days ago, sans name. We now have a reader in Antarctica and I said we now cover pole to pole with you in mind!
No explanations needed here.Thank you for willing to be vulnerable. So, what’s the temperature in your neck of the woods these days? How are the goats?
I am warning you…I shall visit one day! I am so, so glad to hear from you. I pray for you from time to time and think about your when I am complaining about cold days in North Carolina.
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@ Anon 1:
1 Cor. 9:5 – “Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”
I take from this that the other apostles beside Paul were indeed married – though I don’t think this proves much in either direction, since Paul’s spiritual career was clearly not harmed by the fact that he was single.
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“Jeeeeeeesus is your boyfriend now”
Bwahahahahahahahaha! 🙂 🙂 🙂
@ Teri Anne:
Teri Anne, within a very short time after I decided to give myself a much-needed break from church attendance, I met a wonderful man and had a pretty serious relationship. It didn’t work out in the end but I’m very grateful for that time and for him.
And I can tell you that it was a bloody relief to not have the 10,000 lb. weight of churchianity/Christian culture hanging over me at that time, either.
Whodathunkit?
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Dee, nice to talk to you again! I just updated my blog for the first time in a bit, so you should check over there 🙂 But we are all faring fairly well, thank you!
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AlaskAnna
You like Dr Who? Guess who we might go to lunch with. The head of the Dr Who fan club-Jeri Massi.She also runs a blog about IFB abuse.
Back to your blog. I had to tell you.
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@ Hester: Given how much Paul traveled – and how much danger he was in at times – I wonder if he felt it would be best not to marry so as not to
– be the cause of constant worry and pain for his (hypothetical) wife, via separation for long periods of time
– feel that he could not ask a woman to travel with him all – or most – of the time, as the hardships and dangers were great
It might not have been an easy decision for him… we don’t know, nor can we know if he was (possibly) married prior to his conversion. He’s silent about that, at least in the texts we have available to us.
I don’t usually like to go on wild speculative goose chases about things like this, but…
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@ dee: Current Doctor Who or old-school Doctor Who?
My faves are David Tennant and Tom Baker, though Matt Smith is pretty sweet, too. 😉
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Because of the small size of my church (we probably average 80 in attendance) we have very few small groups, but of the 5 singles over 20 in the church, 3 of us are involved in them right along side the married folks. There is no concept of a “singles ministry”. I appreciate that, so I mentioned this to one of the pastors. He told me that’s one reason he prefers small churches- you can’t separate people because there just aren’t enough people to make separate groups- everyone in it together. I wonder how size of church affects singles and their ability to plug in?
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@ numo:
I saw the Doctor Who symphony at the end of last year. I’ve only seen the full seasons of Matt Smith’s Doctor, but have seen large parts of Tennant and Eccleston (it used to be on the same night as my old evening church, so I’d miss part or all of episodes regularly) and remember bits of Tom Baker. My heart belongs to Rory, though.
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Dee wrote, “In fact, he (Mohler)seemed to imply that being married with children will insure the highest efficacy potential of a pastor.”
These guys sometimes try to distinguish/distance themselves from the patriarchs like the Baylys and the Dougs, but notice the similarity.
From Doug Phillips’ bio from the Vision Forum website:
” Doug came to realize that the greatest witness a man could offer for Jesus Christ was not what he knew, but how he lived his life as a father and a husband.”
So if Paul or any other apostle/believer/martyr in the New Testament was single, they could not POSSIBLY offer Jesus the GREATEST witness.
Rest of their syllogism: the Gospelly Bible CLEARLY teaches that Paul WAS the greatest witness, ever!
Therefore, ex post facto, summa cum laude, vini visi vici, it is proven that Paul could not possibly have been single!!
I challenged Doug about his bio statement via email, asking for ONE SOLITARY EXAMPLE of ANY New Testament disciple whose witness for Jesus consisted in being a good father, husband, wife, mother, son, daughter etc. I received only a form letter in reply, thanking me for my interest, way too busy to reply, check out our new products, etc.
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Yeah, no patience with singles ministries any more. In my new church, my friend has become involved with some of the older singles, but I am not interested right now. I’d rather get to know a variety of people. Unfortunately I know a lot of singles over 40 who don’t attend church any more. It seems there’s nothing out there for them, and they’d rather watch church on t.v. Somehow I think the whole church is missing out in that situation.
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When I first moved to my new hometown, I visited quite a few churches. One of the first questions I always asked was “How can I get involved and how can I serve?” Every single time I was told that the nursery or children’s ministry was desperately in need of volunteers and that it was crucial for singles to fill those positions so that the parents could attend services. The singles ministry had its events and Bible studies during the week. So apparently all singles are good for is changing diapers and keeping kids from burning down the building. Notice that I wasn’t invited to work with the youth group, which would have been my preference. Surely I’m not the only person, single or married, who has no desire to change diapers.
I love coming to this blog because it doesn’t matter what your relationship status is. All that matters is that you contribute in a healthy manner and show love to the victims. It is a safe haven where labels just don’t matter. Thank you Dee and Deb for providing a virtual home for us.
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Dee
Bless you for this post about singles.
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@ Mandy:
You’re not the only one. Although, as a single guy, they let me volunteer to help with the youth and with technical stuff (e.g. sound, computer networks, etc.), because those things are evidently seen as normative for my gender. Single guys just don’t get asked to work in the nursery, in my experience. Sexism at work, I guess. It makes me wonder if the opposite happens sometimes as well: a single guy who is gifted in working with children, but isn’t given the opportunity? I mentioned one time in a board meeting that I’d love to get men and women involved in the tech arts ministry, and received some incredulous looks (“What? Women doing technology? That would never happen!“).
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JOsh, at a certain church guys were urged to work in the nursery and childrens’ ministry (those ministries that we were at one point told were never going to exist because that would unfairly segregate demographics on the congregation) because working in the nursery would lead to finding hotties of the opposite sex who could then be married.
Didn’t buy that and it’s not because i have no willingness to help with the little ones. Using the possibility of marriage and sex as a way to get single guys to volunteer in children’s ministry just seemed skeezy and cheap, that’s all.
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I am so grateful that having returned to church after a 20-year absence, I found a place where nobody talks about marital status, the small groups are open, and one of the ministry council members (who is also in my small group) is a 50-something twice divorced single mother/ grandmother. I too am a middle -aged divorcee and no one has EVER tried to marginalize either one of us. Pastor is married with 4 kids but he treats everybody the same regardless of status.
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I have so much to say about this topic. I was single until age 36. I spent most of that time without a church home. Some true experiences:
*As a young Christian school teacher, I visited a church where I was informed that I should attend youth ministry events as it was designed for all teens (13+), and all unmarried adults up to age 40. Yes. Truly. Single adults were expected to hang out with 13 year olds and assumed to have the same spiritual needs. I would have literally been expected to worship and fellowship with teens including my own students.
*Visited another where I was told I could not be part of the women’s Bible study I expressed interest in as singles were to stay in the singles group where it was hoped they would eventually pair up. Tried out the group for two events. It was horrifying. Nothing but a meat market. Men sizing up women and women pissed that there might be new competition, since there were more women than men.
*Moved to a smaller town and visited a small Evangelical church. Two members of their welcome committee visited me and informed me that they didn’t really know what I could do in their church as all their ministries were for families. I had already concluded this from a welcome letter I had received that summarized their ministries.
*Attended a bridal shower for a former student whose mother felt she was flouting convention being a “very mature bride” at all of 25. Her mother’s sister informed me while making small talk that she didn’t really know how to have a conversation with a woman like me who had no husband and kids and said “you really have nothing, do you?” No idea how one answers that question politely.
*Dealt with a principal at a Christian high school who felt that my being an unmarried female employee of his entitled him to be my “spiritual father” and intervene in my personal life. Luckily, he was not at the school for long.
I ended up marrying a Catholic and converting. I worked in a Catholic school for ten years where marital status was not considered a vital issue in regard to one’s spirituality. While many Catholics and even more Protestants wring their hands over the celibacy of the priesthood, I think they have no idea that it at least leads to a church where no one is thoroughly marginalized for remaining unmarried.
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I don’t want to shift the focus from singles to a debate about something else (the meaning of marriage), but it sometimes seems to me as if a logical consequence of the definition and sacralization of a “biblical” view of marriage always leads to the marginalization of (any) singles, because this definition always goes back to the creation story and thus the idea that only man and woman as a pair constitute the image of God- and if this is true, then why is the argument that singles are deficient wrong? Adam was not good alone, and so a woman was created as a marriage partner….rather than another creation choice for companionship, such as a whole additional group of human beings, or another man as a friend, etc. I have been troubled for a while by what seems an attempt to fix the image of God- to fix how we are supposed to bring God into the world- into literal physical terms. If man/woman in union is the image of God and yet singleness is also good, is there something off in the whole analogy? If we want to take Paul as an example instead, does that call into question man/woman as the only image of God? Or in that case, is it enough that men and women both exist in the world, even if many are single/celibate? But that is not the view in the creation story. And as a 31 year old single woman, I often get the feeling there are limits as to how much I’m really supposed to associate with men in the church without it seeming too friendly or suspicious. So it becomes a matter of men existing in the world somewhat removed from me, and yet man/woman being somehow essential for God’s truth (I suppose strict complementarians solve this problem by enshrining different roles for men and women within church structure itself).
I guess this comment is not very helpful for practical solutions along the lines of fixing small groups and things. But I sometimes feel that these persistent problems have their roots in deep unresolved theological issues. As an aside, I think it’s no accident that for thousands of years dedicated singles formed their own separate communities (monasteries and convents) in the Catholic church…or that the history of Catholic priests has been so troubled. The Christian community’s efforts to come to grips with what singleness means have always been complicated.
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@alr. I have a good one. When I first moved to the area I live in now (about 10 years ago) I joined the church singles group. I was amongst the youngest at 36. Everybody else was my age to just over 50. The featured speaker at the retreat was a young guy who gave Christian (TM) dating advice. Yes, you read it correctly, dating advice to a bunch of folks most of whom were significantly older than the misguided speaker. I should have seen the writing on the wall . . .
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Hester wrote:
I’d also add 40s age range to that. I have come across a few never married Christians who are in their 50s, and they feel that way too, they don’t fit in.
I have seen some ladies who are 60+ years old say that once their husbands died, they were treated differently (worse) by their churches, treated differently by married friends in general, and by married couples they used to be friends with at church. They were ignored, or people acted awkward around them, they were no longer invited over for lunch, to participate in stuff, etc.
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For your original list at the top of the page, probably the biggest and most confused and frustrated group (among Christian singles) is the…
– hetero-sexual Christian women who want to be married, and who expected to be married, but who have never been married, and they don’t know why they never got married.
This is the group that was repeatedly assured by churches, pastors, Christian books about dating and marriage, that if they prayed enough, had faith (and/or stayed sexually pure and/or stayed pretty – there are all sorts of rules), there was no question that they would get a spouse, in God’s timing, and it would be “God’s best.”
Other major points you might want to discuss later:
1.) Some Christian groups and speakers (such as Al Mohler) are now teaching that prolonged singleness (that is, not getting married, and/or not getting married young) is a sin. Yes, a sin.
1a.) Al Mohler and guys like him are now publishing blogs, books, etc, advising that Christians should get married as young as age 18 – 23
(specific age varies depending on which of these guys you are reading; one author might say age 22 is the ideal, Mohler might say 18 or 19)
2. The excessive focus on marriage and parenting among Christians today has kind of undermined Christ’s teachings/ authority and the Gospel message, in that-
2a. Christ taught that His kingdom would be spread and enlarged by sharing the Gospel with unsaved people (not by people who believe in Him having babies).
(Some of the Reconstructionists/ Quiverfull type movements believe that to take back America and make it godly, people of their view point will have to “out- breed” atheists, liberals, etc., hence the strange, recurring emphasis on marrying young and having lots of kids)
2b. The teachings of Christ that He is to be first, above all, have been ignored in the marriage- family- parenting- crazy Christian culture, such as,
“If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine.” (Matthew 10:37)
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@ Ann:
Having had to study church history (in Catholic high school), I really think that you are looking at monastic life wrongly. Giving up marriage was considered (and still is) to be a sacrifice not the purpose of the group’s existence. And as a Catholic, I have found that single people are much more accepted in the life of the church. As a single childless woman over 30, I was not welcome to work with children’s ministries anymore in Evangelical church. This summer, I was welcomed as a VBS teacher with open arms and no questions about my motives. Mass is not a time for marital PDA as I often noticed in the evangelical churches I attended (I remember a single friend of mine talking once about how she longed for the day when she had a husband to hold hands with in church…and her fantasy is not outside reality at any evangelical church I’ve been to). And, as someone already mentioned, there is no such thing as a sermon series on marriage. In my previous parish, there was a single, never married, woman in her 50s who held several important leadership roles–something I had never seen in a Protestant church of any stripe. No one batted an eye at her role or mentioned her marital status. I only realized it when she spoke with students at the parish school where I taught about singleness as a vocation–which the church regards as equal to marriage.
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@ alr:
I hear you, though I’m not Catholic (Lutheran). I spent a lot of time around Catholic religious when I was in my late teens-early 20s and even though that was s while ago, you’re right – there is a FAR healthier attitude toward single people in most Catholic parishes than in evangelical Protestant circles.
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I was 46 when I lost my husband. It was really funny when the funeral home director thought I was the daughter instead of the wife, because I looked much younger. I strongly suspect that my youthful appearance has made things much more difficult at my former church. As some readers pointed out, many churches are very age segregated and people do not mix with people who are not the same age. Consequently, the women my age did not recognize me as being part of their peer group and would not speak to me. It did not help to tell people my real age and that I was a widow. I got so frustrated that I seriously considered dyeing my hair grey!
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I think Ann at 10:46 brings up a good point.
Most discussion of Adam and Eve relate to them as marriage partners but I think there is more to it than that. We are told that God said it was not good for the human to be alone so He created the Woman from the Man. I see this as not just the start of the nuclear family, which is so prized in Western society, but the start of the extended family and of society as a whole. We need friends, neighbours, acquaintances, colleagues, second cousins and great aunts. And jumping to the Gospels and epistles, much of the emphasis is on relating to one another as neighbours (think Good Samaritan and ‘Do as you would be done by’) or as brothers and sisters, ie part of God’s family.
“Ubuntu ungamuntu ngabanye abantu” is a Xhosa proverb meaning “People are people through other people.” I think the Genesis story teaches us that we are made to live in community with others, to be inter-dependent. Marriage relationships are part of that but are not the full picture.
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alr wrote:
That is worse than either a more age-integrated or a more segregated approach, IMO. If I were a mother of a daughter of, say, 15, I will find it acceptable to take her to a church event I or anyone else could be at. Or to send her to a teen event. I would not find it good to send her to a place a mother cannot go, but 38-year old single men are grouped with teens.
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numo wrote:
Jeri is old Who – #3 (Jon Pertwee) is her fave. Mine are #4 (Tom Baker) and #8 (Paul McGann), though I’m a fan of NuWho, too.
I’ll give more thought to the actual topic of the post and respond if I think of something to add.
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I’ve seen the same type of grouping, not as bad as teens to 39, but 20’s to 50’s. It was at my one (and only) visit to Orange County, CA’s megachurch. Even though I was still Baptist at the time, I knew that the needs were just too different to be a good fit.
As a never-married single Catholic, it is better, but because Catholics at my parish aren’t really good at welcoming the new-comer it has been hard. I’m just very thankful that I have other places to grow and teach my faith.
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@ alr
Thanks for the perspective on the Catholic context! I’m intrigued that the attitude towards singles seems to be so much healthier. My (possibly wrong) thought about the monastic life was that singleness seemed to be a radical enough decision that extra-supportive communities were part of choosing it. So, not that giving up marriage was not a sacrifice, but that the very strong community of a convent/monastery helps people with that sacrifice. Whereas in (evangelical) churches, single people, even if they choose it as a vocation, don’t have that kind of option. But as I said, it’s interesting and encouraging to me that a healthier attitude towards singles seems to run all throughout the Catholic church, apart from particular contexts.
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Josh wrote:
My church doesn’t allow men to work ages 2 and under. There is a stigma on the parents end with dropping off babies needing diaper changes to men they don’t know. And given SGM situation I don’t blame them. On one hand this appears sexist but I think reasonable boundary to cater to parents peace of mind. Men are welcome ages Prek+ but not many volunteers. We also do background checks on everyone in children’s wing and each classroom has 2 adults – never just one.
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Ann
You bring up some good points. Todya’s complementarians push the idea that the husband/wife relationship examplifies an earthly view of the Father/Son relationship. But, as I often point out, if this is what it is supposed to reporesent, it is an epic fail. Not once have I ever heard the following “Fred and Susie sure help me get the Father/Son relationship.”
If this realtionship were vital to such an understanding, then Paul would nothave remoained single and he would have said that everyone should get married. He did not. Yet Paul exemplified a humble submission to the call of Jesus and an understanding of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer.
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Daisy
Great comment at 11:10PM
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air
Your comment reflects some other things that I have beeen reading. It seems to me that the Catholic church has a much higher view of singles than do the evangelical church. Perhaps it is because of the examples of priests and nuns? Fascinating. This is definitely something to think about.
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Teri Anne
Rejoice in your youthful appearance! However, I am interested in your views of being a widow in a marriage oriented church. I am sorry for you loss at such a young age amd am interested in your unique struggles.
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Estelle
Great comment as 12:38 AM
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Retha
Oh my goodness. A 38 year old woman is supposed to hang out with a 13 year old. The nuts have taken over!
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Tikatu/numo
I have decided to work my way through all of te Dr Whos. I have only watched drips and drabs. I like Paul McGann but I am not position to rule out others at this point.
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Dee. All Dr. Who is good. Even the ones with the tinfoil Cybermen.
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alr wrote:
I had to laugh, but only because what you are saying is SO true! I had forgotten the marital PDA in many Protestant churches. I have never seen that take place during Mass. Granted, I haven’t been a Catholic for long, and maybe you see more of that in other parishes.
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Retha Faurie wrote:
That is worse than either a more age-integrated or a more segregated approach, IMO. If I were a mother of a daughter of, say, 15, I will find it acceptable to take her to a church event I or anyone else could be at. Or to send her to a teen event. I would not find it good to send her to a place a mother cannot go, but 38-year old single men are grouped with teens.
And to make matters worse, I know of at least one marriage that came out of that group in which the groom was 35 and the bride was 19. I’m sure there were others. And the relationship started during her senior year of high school. The parents were apparently okay with it all because he was from the church after all. I also know of a relationship within that group in which the man was 26 and the girl was 16. They dated for two years with her parents’ blessing, again because he was from church. Age differences in marriage are a personal matter between the couple, IMO, but with the caveat that both are consenting adults at the beginning.
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Dee,
You asked about my struggles as a widow at church. Although I am still on the roster as a member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS), I stopped attending in June. The last straw this fall was seeing my friend put under church discipline for separating from her abusive, law-breaking husband. My ten year WELS experience has been so devastating that I am experiencing the disorientation experienced by people leaving a cult, as if being a widow was not hard enough. But now I am much happier because I no longer experience the frustration of being shunned due completely to circumstances beyond my control. I feel wonderfully free of the oppressive Christian culture, and I am never going back to a conservative church. I may go to a Progressive, gay-friendly church soon.
I joined the Wisconsin Synod Lutheran Church a week after my husband died, and immediately began attending the five month class required to join the church. The class covered orthodox Christian doctrine and was based on Martin Luther’s Small Catechism. Gender roles were discussed only briefly. No one gave me an orientation to WELS culture, probably because it would sound ridiculous, and the contrast between the doctrine and the WELS culture was extremely confusing. I did not understand until my friend was punished for showing initiative that WELS culture forbids women from ever having an idea. Because my kind first pastor allowed me to ask questions, I also did not understand that in WELS culture disagreeing with the pastor was very much frowned upon.
Because very few people actually talked to me, no one ever explained when I made a cultural blunder and I never knew what I did “wrong”. Instead I got a lot of cold stares which I was unable to interpret. I tried very hard to be friendly, but in retrospect being friendly only acerbated the problem because another “rule” was that people are only supposed to be candid with their own family.
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As a 46 year old single mom of a grown daughter I am tired of being relegated to the back seat of Christian ministry because I am single and because I am female.
If it’s of any comfort to you, being single and male, and 50-something in my case, isn’t any better in that regard.
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I have a friend who was dating a young lady when they were both graduate students at Texas Tech a number of years ago. They even had planned to elope and get married in their pastor’s office. Unfortunately, she lost her life in an auto accident. He never really dated anyone else and has never married.
He moved back to East Texas after he got his master’s at Tech and got a job in the Houston area, even serving for a time as a youth pastor at his church.
He was asked to resign his non-paying youth pastor’s job when when a new minister was hired by the church because ” He wasn’t married, how could he give advice on the courtship phase of life.”
Later, he moved to another church and after turning down attempts by members of the congregation to ” set him up” with a widow at the church, he had a person accuse him of being a homosexual.
He has not been to a church since….
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@ Teri Anne:
As a Lutheran, I apologize for the WELS church…they’re pretty well known to be nuts by the rest of the Lutheran community. Your description matches others I have read/heard. Just curious, in what area of the country was this congregation?
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“If it’s of any comfort to you, being single and male, and 50-something in my case, isn’t any better in that regard.”
No it certainly is not.
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KD
I am going to include this comment in a post.
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KD, When I read about your friend’s story, my heart just broke. Please tell him that he is loved.
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Anna A wrote:
My sense, as a convert and having experienced both worlds, is that Catholic parishes don’t have that “community center” approach where they try to create enough activities to become the center of parishioners’ social lives. While there is a women’s group, it meets four times a year. There are not “fellowship groups” or “small groups” or “accountability groups” (which always puzzled me–it was wrong for Catholics to confess to a priest but okay for them to confess to a whole group of people??) or sports leagues or social groups, etc…My parish has a Bible study available except in the summer that is open to anyone of any age, gender or marital status. It has a youth group for teens and catechesis for children preK-high school. But not the rest. The church is just not meant to be the social center of everyone’s life. And mass is not for fellowship with each other. An evangelical friend basically chewed me out once when she found out that my husband I don’t go to mass at the same time every week because “how are (we) able to get close to the people (we) are fellowshiping with?” My answer was that we don’t go to mass to hang out with the other parishioners but to worship and receive the eucharist. She was confused and upset by that idea.
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air
Thank you for that great description of a Catholic view on church. Please feel free to elaborate. It is very interesting to me.
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@ alr:
alr, your description of church life sounds so … refreshing.
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@ dee: A lot of the older TV shows are missing, so there are continuity problems.
I used to *love* the cheap, cheesy sets they used (during the Tom Baker era) for other planets. My favorite: the decor (so to speak) of the Doctor’s home planet, Gallifrey. One of the scenes shows the Doctor and another character using what’s obviously an exterior exit at the studio where the series was filmed. They decorated the handrail with what looks like plastic crepe paper! (Imagine the fiery paper plates – aka flying saucers – from Plan Nine from Outer Space and you’ll get the idea, although the Gallifrey scenes are in color and kinda groovy in their shabby chic way…)
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@ Rafiki: Yes, it does!
I’d have to say that more mainstream Lutheran churches are pretty similar in many respects. (WELS is *not* mainstream by any stretch of the imagination – you know, they used to excommunicate members for being involved in Boy Scouts and members are still supposed to avoid it, supposedly due to the fact that the BSA is promoting another religion. I am not joking; Google WELS and Boy Scouts and you’ll find tons of info.)
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@ numo:
Yes it is true that WELS members are supposed to avoid scouting, so I never mentioned that my former boyfriend was heavily involved in scouting. WELS members are also not supposed to pray with Christians from other denominations, even Missouri Synod Lutherans. I ignored that rule all the time.
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@ Teri Anne: The head of the Missouri Synod made a *terrible* comment about the ecumenical prayer services that were held in Newtown, CT, following the murders there.
i.e., he thought that it was wrong for people from differing traditions to have “prayer fellowship.” Period. 🙁
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@ dee: One thing I want to add (partly gained from my time living with the nuns, back in the 70s) is that celibacy and the religious life (being a priest, monk or nun) was *heavily* idealized prior to Vatican II; also that it was presented as the highest form of service to God.
I knew one nun who tole me that if she’d known then (as a young woman considering the convent) what she knew now (in the early 70s), she would not have entered the convent… and eventually, she did leave and get married. She was one of the most dedicated nuns I knew.
It was very hard – in many ways – for religious to lead normal lives until the changes of Vatican II. An example: young nuns were not permitted to go to weddings (in this order and likely in others), even of immediate family members, because it was assumed that they’d end up leaving the religious life. Instead, the wedding party had to come and visit you in the convent parlor.
I wish I was making that up, but it was standard operating procedure for a very long time.
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@ numo:
My pastor was very unhappy with the memorial service held in Tucson after the January 8, 2010 shooting. The President and Mrs Obama, Attorney General Eric Holder, Governor Brewer and many other dignitaries attended the ceremony. I waited in line for 5 hours, and was rewarded with a good seat. The opening song was a Lutheran hymn, and the Bible was quoted frequently in the speeches. But my pastor was unhappy because the ceremony also included a Native American prayer.
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@ numo: P.s.: there’s a great deal of idealization of virginity (or at least, there was), and many Catholic men struggled with a view of women as either Madonnas or … whores. You can see that playing out in many Italian films of the 50s and 60s, and it certainly has been a *big* thing in other nominally Catholic countries.
That kind of thinking has a lot to do with some Catholics’ view of Mary, but I *don’t* want to get into that here! (I will say that most of the nuns, priests and laypeople that I knew back in the 70s had totally ditched veneration of Mary and other saints, other than remembering them as good people who are part of the church universal and who can serve as an example for us.)
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@ Teri Anne: Too bad for him!
I’m so glad you were able to attend.
I really do not get the whole WELS thing, and am glad I’ve never been exposed to it.
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Readers may be asking themselves how did I ever get myself into such a cult-like church? The answer is that WELS initially seemed like a conventional Protestant church. The New Member classes were very straight-forward. Except in passing, bizarre rules like not associating with scouting were not discussed. Because so few people talked to me, I kept wondering what social blunders I was making, and redoubled my efforts to be more friendly. Finally after 5 years I made a friend who was a lifelong member, and she explained a lot of things to me that were previously very confusing. Through reading, discussions with my friend, and observation, I slowly pieced together an understanding of the bizarre WELS culture.
And why did I not leave, many people will wonder. Two years after my husband died, I moved West and enrolled in graduate school in the physical sciences. My studies were very demanding, I had an autoimmune disorder that almost made me lose my vision, and I was not ready to deal with the hassle of finding a new church. A few years ago, I did investigate other churches but decided to stay because the WELS church was close to campus and I needed a parking permit. As I got close to graduation and a time when I no longer needed a parking permit, I decided to bank upon my previous good attendance at weekly services and simply stopped attending.
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numo wrote:
I attended Catholic school for all of my secondary education (grades 7-12) (essentially for the latter half of the 1980s), taught in a Catholic school for 10 years and became Catholic four years ago. I would say that the idealization of virginity is a thing of the past in the American church. The pre-Vatican II past and perhaps earlier. And I always caution people to realize that the ideas and attitudes of the people in the pews is often different than that of the leaders, especially those in monastic communities and the Vatican itself. There are cultural and social divides that contribute to that phenomenon. Devotion to Mary among white American Catholics is an entirely different animal than devotion to Mary among recent Hispanic immigrants or Latin American Catholics. The church is simply not at all monolithic.
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Teri Anne wrote:
I’m Native American and a tribal member of the Menominees in Northern Wisconsin (but I now live in Southern Calif.). The Jesuits were the first Europeans to make contact with my people, and through a syncretic approach, they were able to produce a lasting Catholic legacy. Evangelical Protestantism on the other hand was never able to gain a foothold amongst the tribe.
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Muff, I’ve been told that slow and steady approach is why a large number of American Indians in Alaska are Eastern Orthodox.
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@ Numo:
To play devil’s advocate for just a moment – and I don’t agree with the broader LCMS reaction to that prayer service – it wasn’t just different Christian denominations who were present at the prayer service in Newtown. There were also Jews, Muslims and Bahai. So I can understand why some would be upset, though I don’t agree. Now, off devil’s advocate. : )
The Newtown LCMS church is in my district and that fuss was kept very quiet locally. I didn’t find out about it until last week. The district president who was involved (not the same pastor who attended the prayer service) is actually preaching at my church tomorrow, but unfortunately I will be playing the organ elsewhere.
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Addendum @ Numo:
Basically, the LCMS, at least in my area, doesn’t freak out over “prayer fellowship” like the WELS church unless there’s actually another religion involved. Can’t speak for the rest of the country, though.
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@ Numo:
“I will say that most of the nuns, priests and laypeople that I knew back in the 70s had totally ditched veneration of Mary and other saints, other than remembering them as good people who are part of the church universal and who can serve as an example for us.”
Funny story. When I explained the Immaculate Conception to my dad – raised Catholic, family has been either German or French-Canadian Catholic for ~400 years (with the notable exception of a line of New England Puritans whom none of the living family members believe me about) – he looked at me like I had rocks in my head. He swore up and down he had never heard that before in the Catholic church and he always thought the IC referred to Jesus’ conception. Maybe he wasn’t paying attention in catechism class? : )
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Well, depending on how systematic one would apply the generationist origin of the soul as a way of transmitting the sin nature (which I’ve read Catholics actually reject) then the Immaculate conception might be considered necessary to establish that Jesus was born without sin because no aspect of human parentage could have been tainted by sin nature.
That’s my Protestant guesstimate on how such an idea may have developed in light of what I know about different scholastic ideas on how the nature of the origin of the soul might connect to the continuation of sin in the world.
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@ Hester: A few months ago I found some very extensive documentation (a thesis, iirc) on the split between the LCMS and WELS over “prayer fellowship.”
It was absolutely mind-boggling (as in, scarcely believable, except that the documentation was extremely thorough).
I thank god that I was raised LCA!
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@ alr: I think this is very true for/of *most* US Catholics at this time, but not all. I can say that only because a close relative married into a family that still has to catch up to the Vatican II reforms. (In other words, they do not accept them, although they are not – as far as I know – part of one of the breakaway groups that have reverted to the Tridentene Mass, etc.).
The older adults in that family were adamant that the sexual abuse cases that were publicized in the early 00s were a lie; that no priest would ever do such a thing.
🙁
on another topic, there are Quiverfull Catholics out there. Google will provide you with plenty of material; I used to frequent a discussion forum where one is a mod.
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@ Hester: I don’t think St. Louis is very happy about congregations like yours, Hester. I’ve been around one that was similar, back in the mid-late 80s (in the D.C. area).
And then there are lay organizations like the Brothers of John the Steadfast – Miguel mentioned them once in a comment here, and I Googled them. I found some scary results (including their official website).
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@ alr: Can I juat say that I know of parishes where the Blue Army was a bid deal, back in the 70s? (One of the nuns I knew taught at one of these parishes…)
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Muff and Wenatchee, another reason for the preponderance of Eastern Orthodoxy in Alaska may be due to the fact that until the later 19th century it was actually Russian territory (you probably knew that anyway). But it’s interesting that many of the Alaskans have remained with that denomination.
A tendency I noted in one church influenced by the SGM/Joshua Harris thing was the tendency to suddenly start segregating singles, including those of working adult age (say 21 to 39). Even if this was only for Bible studies, it seemed to me bizarre especially in light of the fact that most if not all of these members would have been freely working among both sexes during the day. Also I noticed the age of that group was then lowered from 18-40 to 18-25, after which people were placed in home groups instead.
I would agree however that teens below aged 18 mixing with single people in their 20s and 30s is not healthy or even of practical use, unless maybe the teenager has already started working full-time (which is less likely these days as most seem to continue in education until 18).
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@ Kolya: Yes, we tend to forget that down here in the Lower 48!
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Ann wrote:
Ann, you raise an excellent point and I think its vital to work from a proper exegesis of scripture to get what God intentions were in the creation of man (plural).
Heres my viewpoint and maybe it will shed some light depending upon whether you believe what Im saying is true to scripture. As I see it, God (meaning Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is a perfect community of Oneness. Within the trinity or the godhead, there is no lack of harmony or unity, only perfect communion and self-sustaining relationship. God said, “Let Us make man in our image, male and female,” and so He did. But its not that God was in need of companionship. He created us out of His love, in my view, to share His Life with us.
So out of the ground he formed the man. And after having done so, God had Adam wisely name all the animals. In doing so Adam saw all the amazing creatures and their companion. He saw they all were given the means by which they could produce after their own kind, right? And so God helped Adam to realize that he, too, needed a companion like what the animals had, “but among them no suitable helper was found.” God had set the stage to reveal to Adam his will. And then he caused a deep sleep to fall upon him and from his rib (not from the ground as if to make another seperate creature with unique DNA – but using the same DNA material found in Adam’s bone/body) he created the woman. And when Adam saw her, after having seen all the animals and their counterparts, he knew for sure that she was “bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh.”
Eve was the suitable helper to Adam because by himself he was unable to create community like what was found in the Godhead. The animals could all create families and offspring but Adam was missing that ability, which is why God said it wasnt good that he was alone. It wasnt good because he couldnt create community, which was Gods intention all along. “Let US make man (plural) in OUR image..” So, Eve wasnt an afterthought or created as a subordinate intended to improve the quality of male life in the srnse the word “helper” is so often understood. Rather they were both 100% made in Gods image, just as Jesus is 100% God, the Holy Spirit is 100% God and the Father is 100% God. They are all perfect equals as are the male of the species and the female of the species. And the woman doesnt need the man to be fully human, nor does the female. The one does not complete the humanity of the other. But they need each other to “be fruitful and multiply.” And in doing so they are able to create communities of oneness.
But it is most certainly not the case that a man or a woman has to be married to enjoy full and unbroken communion with God because Jesus our brother has, by his death, resurrection, and ascension removed all the obstacles and healed our alienation from God. And the Spirit is our Helper who rescues us from our alone state and catches us up into a relationship with God our Father, in Whom we are perfectly accepted in the Beloved. And that is what Eve as “helper” did for Adam – she rescued (the actual definition of the word helper used in Genesis to descirbe Gods purpose in Eve) him from his alienation – from his “aloneness” – from his inability by himself to create community and thus in doing so reflect the Community that exists in the plurality and equality (not hierarchy) of the Trinity.
So, none of should ever feel incomplete or half human if we are unmarried. And no one who tells others their being “single” (or a female) disqualifies then from ministry because they are misrepresenting God’s will to us and being an obstacle to all God wants to do in and through us as fully completed participants in the Kingdom of God – glory to God!!
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http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vincecoakley/2013/02/23/sgm-detox
Off topic: If you have not listened to vince coakly today, it is well worth it.
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Very interesting conversation. I plan to spend more time reading all the different comments and the next posts about these issues.
Personally, I can’t say that as a 33 year old single male I have noticed any particular attitude towards me related with this issue in the church I attend, which is actually pretty large… But I think I’m still relatively new to the evangelical waters and many things still surprise me. Besides, I have a personality which, at times, makes me a bit oblivious about what’s going on around me. I simply do what I consider right, not necessarily considering what others may be thinking, and have my peculiar ways of looking at things.
However, you’ve made me think about all these issues and it’s true that there may be be a certain level of compartimentalisation in the congregation. For example, there’s a large group of university students and they have their own programme, but there tends to be some mingling with the rest of the congregation. Also, there was a 20’s group which I attended for a couple of years. However, you had to leave when you reached your 30’s, and the group was disbanded when somebody thought that the following year there wouldn’t be enough members. There’s no singles ministry or anything like that as far as I know.
I’ve also got the impression that there may be more chances of being invited to certain social events if you’re in a relationship, even if you’re not yet married. I’ve heard some friends talking about that. One has commented that as a single female, also in her 30’s, she’s noticed some kind of marginalisation.
However, from the little I know, it seems that the situation in my church is quite far from what happens in other places… And, really, I’ve never heard anything about being considered homosexual simply because I’m single past certain age. I wonder if, in my case, it’s different because I’m still a postgraduate student.
That last point, which some commented here, really shocked me… Because, not talking whether you act on it or not, what’s the problem on being homosexual and being in church? I guess that, for some, simply having those tendencies is a horrible sin.
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@ Martos:
“But I think I’m still relatively new to the evangelical waters and many things still surprise me”
**************
hello, martos. I’d be interested to hear more about what has surprised you.
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Martos
“Because, not talking whether you act on it or not, what’s the problem on being homosexual and being in church? I guess that, for some, simply having those tendencies is a horrible sin.”
There are a number of people in the United States who believe that the mere orientation is a sin. We did a series on homosexuality and Christianity in which we discussed some of these issues. This attitude is deeply distubing to us.
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Kristin wrote:
Background checks and multiple simultaneous volunteers are always good, regardless of the age of students (I assume your church does them for Jr/HS leaders also, as my church does). The point about parents’ comfort I can understand. I was just trying to think about it from the perspective of a guy who was gifted in children’s ministry (as I don’t have the gift of not finding children annoying), but safety issues clearly take priority over that.
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dee wrote:
The series was great! To start at the very beginning (a very good place to start)…
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/08/13/homosexuality-towards-compassion-we-need-your-questions/
@Martos, sadly, we still have people in the good ol’ U S and A who think that LGBT folks should be rounded up and imprisoned, or even worse! These types are, thankfully, quite in the minority.
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My husband converted to Catholicism several years ago. I still have not joined the Catholic Church (I’m still on the fence over a variety of issues – we attend a mainline protestant church with our kids right now – my children and I may occasionally go to mass with him).
I admire the Catholic Churche’s attitude/respect toward people despite their marital status, gender or sexual orientation. I am not thoroughly knowledgeable regarding the Catholic Church, but several things stand out to me. A number of single women seem to hold a great amount of respect. Mother Angelica founded the Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN) and is greatly admired, especially among the more conservative Catholics. There are a large number of women saints. Of the approximately 35 Doctors of the Church since its beginning – four or five are women. Also, women like Flannery O’Connor (author), Dorothy Day (social activist) and Edith Stein (philosopher, nun and martyr) are well known and repected. There are probably many others, but those are some of the ones I’ve heard mentioned.
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Martos wrote:
Hi Martos, I could relate to this. Ive had to learn how to be more awake and aware of what was going on, what people were thinking, etc. Generally speaking I tend to mind my own business, do what I consider is the right thing like you said, and not worry about what other people think too much. For this reason, I didnt notice for a long time how strictly compartmentalized everything had become in the church I was a member of, because I was happy to go with my own flow, not recognizing how they had made channels and strove to control the flow of life to narrowly confined channels. I credit my good friend who is a quiet, extremely observant (naturally), and introverted for showing me how to be more observant. Ive learned it by hanging out around with her. I have discernment, but Ive had to learn to be more observant and with that proactive.
I would say so. I was thinking about Al Mohlers comment and the post here about him having made the statement about how he thinks its a sin to delay marriage. Others may disagree, and Im not saying marriage shouldnt be about love, mutual admiration and respect because of course it should be. But I think that one of the biggest reaso ns people should choose to get married is because they feel they are ready and willing to start a family.
I say this because I saw a lot of young people in their early 20’s getting married when I was in SGM and heard of many more afterwards. CJ Mahaneys daughters never dated that I know of and each married relatively quickly the first guy that came along. This became a pattern and Josh Harris and his book I Kissed Dating Goodbye was the textbook on relationships, which meant going on dates with variuos people was virtually a crime. So kids got married young, it would seem, so they could kiss and stuff freely and all they wanted – just as long as they were married. But in a many of these cases were couples married early, they really delayed having children. And I get that because having a child (ren) is a total deal changer. Your own youth is replaced with having to invest your time, energy, finances into supporting the life of a dependent child.
So I had trouble with Mohlers statement for lots of reasons and I wondered how he felt about couples who got married quite young but then delayed having children like many of them do. Would he say thats also a sin, barring no fertility issues of course? It just comes across to me like some early marriages boil down to having ones own bed buddy. But marriage is more than that in my view. So I think its best to wait until you have gained an education and sufficient work experience so as to have come into your own mind, and then get married if youre prepared to sustain a challenging relationship alongside a preparedness for children. Up until that time date whenever the possibility arises, because there’s so much to be learned about ourselves and what works and doesnt work. Thats normal! But I know my position puts me in the crosshairs of those in favor of gay marriage, because I cant get past marriage being for the purpose of procreation. But I also know I was born a heterosexual and didnt choose to be one. So, Im still trying to come to grips with it all. I cant say Im for gay marriage, but Im not against homosexuals. Which brings me to your next point…
That last point, which some commented here, really shocked me… Because, not talking whether you act on it or not, what’s the problem on being homosexual and being in church? I guess that, for some, simply having those tendencies is a horrible sin.I totally agree. The church needs to be have a generous all-comers policy. And pedophilia is certainly not limited to one particular sexual orientation, thats for sure.
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@ Jill:
Exactly. It’s the flip side of the all-male clergy.
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Geez Im sorry I got to rambling and missed saying that I think it makes a difference that Martos is in post grad school because I think people tend to recognize when someone is occupied with something that requires a lot of their time & energy. Because of that hey have a valid reason to “delay” marriage, as it were. Their singleness is socially acceptable. But life takes on many different forms and sometimes just getting the basics down take a lot of ones energy. So I really think people should be given a WIDE BERTH when it comes to readiness for marriage, without saying things that make people think they should hurry up and get hitched esp with the divorce rate being what it is! And thise people who always say things like their marriage is made in heaven are perpetuating a myth!
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@ dee:
You may have a little trouble finding the the first Doctor, William Hartnell; back in the day the BBC tended to tape over old video to reuse it. Still, there is some audio left that is intermixed with stills. Same for the second Doctor, Patrick Troughton.
As far as singles in my own household are concerned, only my youngest really would be interested in going to church, I think, and only if there were kids he knows in the youth group. My daughter, in her early twenties, is not at all interested in being in church — she says she doesn’t want a romantic relationship and is very much the introvert. My oldest son would find it difficult to fit in with a college group if he were interested in spiritual things — which I think he is not. (At the risk of derailing the topic, I think what has turned him away more than anything is the insistance of YEC in the churches where we have belonged. He is a scientist and can’t reconcile YEC with what he has been taught is true.)
Whether my kids were single or not, they’d have a hard time fitting in. The whole “being single” just makes things worse, IMO.
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@ Daisy:
2a. You left out Muslims. THEY’RE the real target whose fertility we need to outdo, according to one Mohler statement.
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@ Tikatu:
I had the same problem growing up as your son. My (temporary) solution was to keep church and science in two separate boxes. I was even a member of the Creation Research Society for a while, until I recognized that I couldn’t judge the quality of the science.
Finally, I realized that creation other than the fact that God created us, isn’t a big deal. The important things are that we search for Truth, wherever it leads, and that, if possible, we are in a loving relationship with God, hopefully through His Son, Jesus
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Here’s a real question that I have. If your living in sin, so to say, will you go to hell? I’ve been thinking about this because I have young adult children. I’m sick of worrying about this because of them. What is the truth about sexual misconduct? Or whatever you want to call it.
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Turtle, your concern about your children is completely understandable. I take great comfort in knowing that God is loving and merciful and forgiving and He loves my kids infinitely more than I do. And I love them a whole, whole lot!
And btw, I don’t really want to get into a debate about the existence of hell, but I’ve been doing a lot of reading and studying on the topic the last few months and I’m starting to think that maybe the idea of eternal torment and punishment is just made up. I never, ever would have imagined myself even questioning it, but since leaving SGM I have been re-examining everything they taught me and trying to find out what the Bible really says.
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@ Tikatu: There are some videos of the 1st two Doctors available on Netflix streaming…
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Marge, can you give me your resources about hell. I’ve been thinking about this lately.
My father-in-law is 82 and has serious illnesses and probably will die soon, it’s hard to believe he’s going to hell. He’s not saved.
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Turtle, you can email me: my first and last name (no spaces) @ yahoo dot com
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@ turtle:
Perhaps the Catholic view may help. We believe that God responds with love, even at the very last second. We also believe that He is aware of, and considers hindrances to believing, such as being abused by a priest or pastor; having an abusive father and only hearing about God the Father, etc.
I remember reading about this tale. A widow was talking to a priest who was later declared a saint(I don’t remember who), about her late husband was died when thrown from a horse. He was an unbeliever. The saint prayed and reassured her, “in the time between he was thrown and landed, he cried out to God and was saved.”
I hope that this encourages you. I have the same concerns about my family, who are not saved in any recognizable way.
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In thinking about the Pastor that was asked to step down because his wife left him, I rembered something…. Pastor Charles Stanley. His church voted to keep him on even though his wife filed for divorce in the 1990’s. He is a Southern Baptist. He has always been a good teacher of Scripture. So, to my mind, Charles Stanley is living proof that a single person is qualified to be a leader.
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Margie, on the topic of hell: The Bible uses 4 words which are all translated with the english word hell.
I think much of the traditional teaching on hell combine different topics, like for example:
> If one texts say hell lasts forever and another passage talk of evil people in hell, it does not mean the people will be there forever. (Similar language example: The city of Pretoria existed for more than 100 years by now, but I lived there for a year-and-a-half.)
> If a text talk of hell -one Greek word – being a lake of fire, and another of people being in hell – another Greek word -, it gives no reason to believe the people will be in the lake of fire.
So, I am a Bible believer on the topic, but do not take the traditional view.
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@numo–
I am well aware of the, shall we say, “diversity” of views and practices among American Catholics. I happen to live next door to what is widely regarded as the most conservative diocese in the U.S. We have concluded, in fact, that our future options are a bit limited by our desire to not live in that diocese. For a few examples of their (mis)adventures–you are basically not allowed to receive communion in your hands; some parishes have a dress code for mass; women/girls are excluded from altar service, being lectors and may only cantor if a male is unavailable; EMHCs are never allowed; and they have founded their own seminary lest priests in the diocese be corrupted by liberal ideas such as that people wearing sneakers should be allowed in church.
In my own parish, we have a family that shows up in the front row with wife and daughters wearing oversized prairie dresses and not allowed to speak for themselves. They occasionally show up at parish events in order to later complain about them to the priest. VBS was a big hot button for them. The father stood in the back for morning singing time then chewed out our senior pastor and the VBS directory for the inappropriate music with its inappropriate actions including hand waving.
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Jill/Josh
I may use your comments in my post tomorrow.
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Evie
Great comment! I think I need to deal with the homosexual issue within the topic of singleness due to a number of people picking up on this. I think it is important for our European friends to understand the current climate in evangelical churches in America. It’s not pretty.
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Tikatu
THANK YOU!!! I have been stressing this aspect of militant YEC for years and I get flack for it all the time.
At the risk of derailing the topic, I think what has turned him away more than anything is the insistance of YEC in the churches where we have belonged. He is a scientist and can’t reconcile YEC with what he has been taught is true.
That is why I miff everybody off with my strong stance on OEC/TE. We are losing people over this issue and I am determined to show that there are strong Christians who do not buy YEC.
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@ alr: Are you in the Midwest, by any chance? (No need to answer; it’s just that the relatives I mention are out there, in a diocese that sounds somewhat like yours.)
I really feel for everyone who made the Great leap Forward post-Vatican II, as they’re getting squashed by a lot of the hierarchy now. 🙁
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@ Numo:
“I don’t think St. Louis is very happy about congregations like yours”
If they are they’ll have to excommunicate my entire county…my congregation is very easygoing and judging by the other pastors I’ve met/worked with locally, they all are too. Though I’ll keep you posted, as we’ll probably be getting a new associate pastor before summer, fresh out of the St. Louis seminary. If any wonkiness arrives with him I will be sure to inform you (and my pastor). I’m a little nervous because all three candidates on our call committee’s preference list were interested in “family ministry.” Whatever the heck that means. Nowadays it usually means trouble.
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@ alr & Numo:
And judging by alr’s comment all the Catholics in my area are very easygoing too…but it’s New England so what can I say…
If they didn’t let women cantor around here there would be no cantors. Funny story about sneakers – I sing in Catholic choirs and the first time I sang at Mass, I thought my robe would be long enough to hide the sneakers. It wasn’t and the bishop was coming that day. I had no other shoes and I had to walk right in front of the bishop in my sneakers…
The diocese alr described probably won’t even let Protestants sing in their choirs.
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Addendum @ Numo:
Also, all this reading about the religious nutjobs in other parts of the country and the many statements issued to me that read “You live in New England and that’s different,” are just confirming my long-held ambition to never move out of state… : )
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@ dee: I agree that it’s very important.
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@ alr: Are women wearing mantillas? (I suspect the answer is “yes.”)
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@ Pam: I think Rory’s a lovely guy, but not for me.
Matt Smith, otoh… (Is it TMI to say that sometimes I wish I was River Song? That’s for her general kick-*ss-ness, not just her ongoing romance.)
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Dee- Please feel free to use any comments 🙂
alr- The parish’s that we have visited in our area of Ohio (and formerly KY) are nothing like you have described. Very welcoming to all people, casual or formal, no dress codes, etc.
Dee and Tikatu – With regard to militant YEC, I was raised in a conservative Baptist Church that very much falls in line with Ken Ham and supports The Creation Museum, etc. (Ken Ham used to attend the church). Bottom line: I’m not happy with his approach. I’m not a scientist and my knowledge in that area is limited; however, I believe that God created the earth and I don’t view Genesis as having to be literal to be true. When my parents have brought up Ken Ham or YEC with me (they strongly support both), I have tried to gently explain my views but it is difficult as they are so stong in their convictions. . . . .that is only one of the many reasons I’m more attracted to the main line protestant churches or the Catholic Church – they allow discussion and have a much more nuanced view of the creation story and are open to reasonable discussion about it. (A different topic, but one area I struggle with in regard to many mainline protestant churches is their weakness in the pro-life areas/many are pro-choice).
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@ turtle:
“If your living in sin, so to say, will you go to hell? … What is the truth about sexual misconduct?”
***********
turtle,
This is something I’ve begun to explore in my mind — although i’ve only scratched the surface of the topic.
*does the bible actually say “you must not have sex before marriage”? I haven’t embarked on poring over what the bible actually says.
*2 people are in love. they want to commit their lives to each other. they want to formalize it through a wedding ceremony. a few nights before their ceremony, they have sex. this is sin? this is wrong? what kind of hokus pokus does a “ceremony” confer on them that makes their commitment any more authentic than it already was?
*2 people are in love. they want to commit their lives to each other. they do commit their lives to each other. they see ceremonies as perfunctory, costing a lot of money, being unnecessarily complicated (logistically and relationally). But more importantly, unnecessarily complicated emotionally. They see a wedding ceremony/reception as being all about the event itself and not at all about what they are actually doing (committing their lives to each other). They choose to marry themselves, in their own way, on their own terms, as is meaningful to them. They go on with their lives, and have a good, healthy relationship through the years.
They are in sin? This is wrong? Their relationship is invalid, illegitimate?
*If the christian community recognizes a couple as married who were married in a hindu, buddhist, jewish, mormon, islamic, etc. tradition, will the christian community not recognize a couple as married who have a common law marriage? who married themselves?
*Does God recognize a couple as married who were married in a hindu, buddhist, jewish, mormon, islamic, etc. tradition? A common law marriage? A couple having married themselves?
*Does it all boil down to a man in a suit deemed an authority to legitimize a relationship???
*Isn’t commitment itself the issue?
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elastigirl,
I have a story on people recognizing a marriage….my grandparents were married by the Justice of the Peace in their tiny county, and were married over 50 years. There were people who did not think they were “actually” married because they went to the JP for the ceremony.
He was Cumberland Presbyterian and she was SBC. Until my grandfather passed, there were people in both denominations who thought they had “never married.”
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elastigirl wrote:
Hi elastigirl. Thanks for the question. I have been thinking a lot about it today, and I’m finding it hard to pinpoint many specific ‘surprises’ at the moment. However, here are a few thoughts and a bit of context which may help to understand where I’m coming from.
About 4 years ago I left a particular church that many openly declare as a cult, but which, on the surface, may not look that different from other conservative denominations. However, I had many disagreements with their doctrines and ended up leaving after spending most of my life in that church. At the time I had several friends at the Christian Union of my university, so I decided to visit their churches. After a few months I visited the church where I’m at the moment and decided to stay there.
I quickly embraced everything I found in my new evangelical church, which tends towards the Reformed side of things… Mostly , I think, because I didn’t know any better. For some reason I thought that was the main line of theology besides Catholicism. I knew something about Arminianism, but that was it. During that time I felt very excited and I even started thinking BIG about ministry… Don’t-waste-your-life style.
However, after a couple of years I started feeling a bit lost and restless. It was frustrating because leaving my previous church hadn’t been easy and I thought that I had finally arrived to a place where all those questions and doubts would be stilled. And since then the restlessness has only grown.
I realised something important: when I left the first church I also abandoned a distinct sense of identity and a particular culture which, somehow, defined who I was. It was easy to know, according to what they taught, who you were within the context of the church and the world. You see, we were a people with a special message. But when I made the move I simply substituted my previous identity with a new Evangelical identity.
At the moment I’m still a member of the evangelical church because I think a lot of it is good… But I still feel restless. I feel uprooted. The last few months have been particularly tough in that sense, because it’s like I’m in some sort of Christian ‘no man’s land’… And as I don’t have any particular attachment to the term ‘Evangelical’, I feel like I wouldn’t mind abandoning it.
Maybe what surprised me the most is what I found out about myself… However, I’d like to mention a few things:
– I was initially surprised to find a lot of the same attitudes which were very familiar to me in the ‘cult’ church… I guess a lot of it is just human nature. And I should add that, generally, people looked and felt more ‘free’ in the new church… But, still, I came across legalism in unhealthy doses as well.
– In Evangelical churches there’s a lot of talk about living according to the Bible, but I do think there’s also a culture that underlines a lot of what you do and how you do it. And although much of it may not actually be Biblical, very often is accepted as such. There’s a strong sense of identity in being ‘Evangelical’, despite all the talk about only finding your identity in Jesus.
– I think that part of my restlessness have been caused by discovering a thousand different theological responses to a single question, even from within one particular school of thought… At times that can be very tiring.
– I was surprised to find out how influential many American pastors and authors are, especially people from the Neo-Calvinist persuasion. For example, some people seem to be John Piper fanboys… However, large portions of Christianity seem to be largely ignored.
I’ll stop here… I need to go to bed, and I think my post is long enough by now. But I can continue with this topic at another time.
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@ dee:
Thanks for your response. I followed the series on homosexuality and my opinion is that it was very well done and interesting. I’m thinking on reading it again at some point.
It just happens that TWW is updated so often that, at times, it can be hard to remember everything we’ve already gone through 🙂 I guess that may be another sign that you’re doing a good work… Keep it on!
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@ Evie:
Thank you very much for your interesting comment.
From my experience I got the impression that, in Christian circles in the UK, many tend to marry younger and after a relatively shorter time of being together than in the general population… Not saying that it is bad in itself, but it’s an interesting thing… I guess that some, as you said, marry to be able to do certain things they’re not supposed to do in other circumstances.
However, I wonder if that’s human nature as well… You take some decisions, maybe when you’re a bit too young or unprepared, and then have to live with it, growing up a bit faster to face it all.
However, I do believe it’s bad when that is encouraged and used with other purposes in mind. For example, with the idea of producing a lot of ‘Christian’ babies… I’m not sure if there is any influence from Al Mohler and his ideas over here, but I know quite a few who bought those books written by Joshua Harris about kissing dating goodbye and boys meeting girls and what not.
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CLC Members Not Empowered to Vote to Split With SGM According to CLC’s Bylaws/CLC is Likely Still Legally Part of SGM if SGM’s Audited Financial Statements are Valid
Sorry to break into the conversation yet any members of Covenant Life Church, who believe their vote is what enabled CLC to split from Sovereign Grace Ministries, may want to take a look at CLC’s bylaws which are linked below and publicly available through the Maryland State Department of Assessments and Taxation’s website. Article 10 of CLC’s bylaws states specifically that only pastors, not members, can make decisions for the tax-exempt corporation.
If so, the voting process the CLC pastors set up, that was designed to make it look as though members had a say in the organization’s decision to leave SGM, was sheer pageantry that borders on/perhaps is fraud, in my opinion.
In addition, as I recall, the last few SGM audited financial statements also clearly state that CLC and SGM cannot sever ties without giving each 18 months of notice and concluding a transaction whereby CLC pays SGM back for the percentage of the building SGM bought from CLC. As I recall, that sale was in the high six figure or low seven figure range so, if they intended to adhere to contract law, there was potentially a huge financial cost to leaving SGM that the CLC pastors didn’t seem to mention in their meetings with members either.
CLC’s Members Have No Say in How the Corporation is Run Bylaw
It’s Article 10.
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/ucc-charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000363&Folio=0094&Pages=0003&Date=04%2001%202002&Ack=1000361986842726&Domain=Charter&ID=D06734453&Name=COVENANT%20LIFE%20CHURCH,%20INC.&source=1
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@ elastigirl: I’m with you on all of this, in that I think the answers are about what people decide in their own hearts and minds, and not ins some “magical” claptrap re. marriage ceremonies and licenses.
Which will set me apart from our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters, but then, I have the “excuse” that Lutherans only believe in two sacraments – baptism and holy communion.
If marriage itself (as in, the commitment of two people to each other) is so important that it’s there in Genesis (without lots of money spent and general folderol and stress), well then… I think that also is something that validates marriage, period. (I will spare everyone my further views on the LGBT marriage issue, but I suspect most of you regulars know where I stand on that as well.)
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@ elastigirl: A couple more comments –
– I know people who are not legally married who are as deeply committed to each other as anyone I know who’s gone through a marriage ceremony – and arguably, these folks are much more committed to each other than some married couples who come to mind
– I would like to see a clear OT example of a wedding ceremony… what’s striking to me is that there are so many assumptions made about texts like the Song of Songs in. re. marriage. I mean simply that the “marriage ceremony” part of most interpretations of the book is conspicuously absent from the text itself… And then there’s Isaac and Rebekah, who clearly *didn’t* (if we go by the text) have a big party on her arrival – or maybe they did, but the writer didn’t seem to view it as important enough to comment on.
– I do not – and have never – viewed marriages in other faiths as not legitimate, and I’m confused as to why others might, but then ???
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@ numo:
numo– actually, i’ve never run across a christian person/entity who did not consider a marriage legitimate which had been performed under the auspsices of a faith other than christianity.
But, my reasoning is if “being married” is so all-important to the christian faith, yet christians recognize a couple as married under a hindu, islamic, etc. tradition, then all it really comes down to a mere ceremony of sorts…. and that’s it????
what’s the big deal about that????
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@ elastigirl: Yes, I hear you re. that kind of person/entity, but still…
Frankly, with weddings and receptions being the spending bash that they are – and so incredibly stressful! – I wouldn’t want (and never did want) that kind of ceremony. If I ever do get married, I think a justice of the peace would suffice – and after that, maybe a small church ceremony.
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@ elastigirl: You know, I think American evangelical culture is really good at making something out of nothing… but then, as Martos said earlier, it’s a human tendency to do so. The church (not just evangelical churches) often attempts to sanctify or “Jesus-ize” things that have nothing to do with Christ.
Like big fancy weddings performed by ordained ministers rather than by secular civil servants.
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turtle wrote:
Ask yourself in your heart of hearts if your father-in-law deserves such an horrific medieval punishment after death.
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numo, elastigirl and others have brought up an interesting point. How do we define a “legitimate” marriage, especially given the differences among denominations and religions. Is it the proclamation of vows before a minister, a signed legal document filed with the government, a simple spoken commitment between two people in love or a signed contract between parties? Are interfaith marriages valid in both religions? A distant relative of mine and his wife had a marriage ceremony, performed by his dad, in which they committed themselves to each other (dad was an ordained minister). But for the legal side they simply registered their marriage (common-law marriage) instead of a filing for a full marriage license. There are some family members who don’t view this union as a legitimate marriage because of the lack of a marriage license.
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On the marriage topic . . . I’m curious as well as to what qualifies as a marriage before God. I don’t think it need be anything like what it has been made into. It really is a commitment between two people before God (for a Christian).
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Dee,
I attended a church once that took a literal interpretation of the KJV: “…the husband of one wife…” 1 Tim 3:2. He must have exactly one wife. Not two or more, not zero. If an elder’s wife died, he was immediately un[dis?]qualified to be an elder and was required to resign. It happened, too, before I started attending there.
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@ Evie
Your statement of 7:42 Saturday was beautiful; thank you. Yes, I think that is the heart of the story. Yet we need to remember as you say that from Adam & Eve came all community and not just family. Too narrow an emphasis leaves the impression, I sometimes think, of just a marriage rather than (as was the case) all humanity….but the latter is important because we create and grow communities in many ways besides only having children.
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Mandy wrote:
Singles are a free labor pool to do all the church scutwork so the marrieds can Focus on Their Families, nothing more.
And the only way out of it is to Get Married and be allowed to sit at the grownups’ table with the other grownups.
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K.D. wrote:
Anyone considered he might be able to give an outsider’s perspective on the situation?
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numo wrote:
Just like Missionary to Darkest Africa or Kickin’ Praise & Worship Singer is among Evangelicals.
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Bridget wrote:
I always figured that marriage before God was defined by the laws of the land.
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Unicorn Guy
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
The new preacher wanted it, so he got it….never mind we ” think this thing through.”
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Steve
This is the problem with extreme literalism when reading the Bible. I wonder, how did they look at Paul?
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Off topic, but the latest episode of SGM Detox is in incredible.
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Dee, Deb, I’m really glad you guys are looking at this issue.
I remember seeing an article in Christianity Today a couple of years ago about the average age of first-time married couples. I was startled to see the writer dressing the church down for “not supporting” early marriage. WHAT??? I could not believe my eyes. The church doesn’t support early marriage? Yet me and all of my friends were married by the time we were 25, and all of our churches and spiritual mentors had been very supportive of it.
Then I read a little further and saw that…oh…he’s talking about getting married even younger. Like, by the time you’re 20. AND he’s questioning whether women should go to college during prime childbearing years (he wasn’t saying that all women should be banned from going to college, but he was saying that Christians should stop “expecting” all of them to go and re-introduce the practice of “encouraging” early childbearing). There was, of course, no question about whether men should forgo college to become better fathers. There was also no attempt to address the obvious social reality that uneducated women are more in danger of poverty should their husbands die or leave them (with all these kids that they’ve been having since 18!) I’m all for women having kids young if they want to, but to suggest that this is the “better” way, and that churches should start pushing it, is irresponsible and unfair (to women and men who aren’t ready for parenthood, and especially to singles).
I was pretty surprised to see that in Christianity Today. Not only was I surprised, I was angry. This article could have been (and probably was) extremely hurtful to any single Christian who read it.
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@ Oasis:
So, in your thinking then, if common law commitment is accepted in a state or country, then it would be acceptable in God’s eyes? (Not trying to put you on the spot). When I really stop and think about the concept of marriage, it seems that much of the reason behind the institution is more of a legal issue concerning combining and separating money issues. I suppose the legal act of marriage can be as much a protection for people as anything else. It seems more fit to protect against the brokenness of the world/people.
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K.D. wrote:
I know the drill.
“We Think This Thing Through until all of You Agree Completely With MEEEEEEE!”
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Marshall Coleman wrote:
The Baba Saddam/Comrade Dear Leader school of holding show elections.
Just like any Third World dictator.
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Mike wrote:
And they have their own Quiverfull faction passing fatwas on Outbreeding the Infidel.
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@ Teri Anne:
Terry Ann,
I am soooooooo with you on this. I have to attend church out of love for my wife and family who deem it of supreme importance. If not for them though, so out if there. I admire your courage and your stand. Rock on.
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dee wrote:
Okay, I am a huge Dr. Who fan and I raise goats. Alaskanna, blog link, please?
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@ Bridget:
Maybe I’m just tired. My mind is a little fuzzy trying to follow the conversation on common-law marriage. Are people here arguing on whether or not it’s legitimate? Just trying to understand. My reason for asking is that I realized, after the fact of a rather large church wedding, that I am only common-law married. My state does recognize this. But it was a crushing blow to find out it wasn’t “legal.” I followed my church’s wedding plan papers, which did not include obtaining a license. They determine whether or not you can even marry in their “church.” Everything, including who you marry, has to meet with the ministers’ approval. So, I just followed their rules, and the license issue never even occurred to me. I really struggle with this one. I did everything “right,” and I’m not legally married. How would other Christians view my marriage?
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StacieMao
Look on my home page with blog roll to the right.
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@ StacieMao: Check the TWW blogroll…
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So what should singles do when they’re marginalized and misunderstood? Should singles inflitrate the groups they’re excluded from hoping to shed light on the situation? Should they invite a married couple out for lunch after church? Should they talk to the pastor about what it’s like to be single there? Should they accept what goes on and just go to church for the worship and forget the fellowship? Should they quit and try to find another church?
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Bridget
CS Lewis proposed two types of marriages. One endorsed by the state/ country/ authority. The other marriage would be one endorsed by the church-one which stresses the faith basis for that particular act. In some churches marriage is considered a sacrament.
In the US, we have mixed up the state and the church and get a funny hybrid. In many countries, people will get married by the state and then proceed to be married in the church which recognizes two types of authority.
Common law marriage can be intentional although it is not always. Unfortunately, common law marriage is often viewed as a default position which rears itself when coupled decided to dissolve their living situation and must divide up property and kids. There was a case in Sweden recently in which the long time cohabitation between Stieg Larsson, the author of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and his girlfriend amounted to nothing when he passed away. She got nothing and sued. Sweden, which is not known for its conservative social values, did not recognize the situation.
I may disagree with the theology surrounding certain gender roles but I do believe that Christian marriage should be recognized by some form of church gathering as part of a community (however ineffective) recognition of this union in God’s eyes.
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Several of us were discussing what constitutes “marriage” before God. (You may need to read further up the thread.) I believe the rules that qualify a “legal” marriage are different by state. In the state where I was married, I needed a license (issued by the state) and then had to be married by a representative of that state. In most states, this representative can be a pastor (who is licensed by their denomination as such and can perform marriages) or a judge. Since we are encouraged in scripture to honor the authorities in the counties where we live, it is probably a good idea to do just that. As I pondered in my last comment, it is probably a protection to have the “legal” binding.
As far as the idea if sexual activities before this “legal” binding, that is another consideration all together. If two Christians make a promise before God without the “legal” binding, I personally would consider that binding before God. I think it is still wise to abide by the laws of the land. (Dealing with parents and family being left out of any celebration is an entirely separate consideration and not to be taken lightly.) 😉
In many states there is “common law” status which implies that if you have lived as husband and wife (for a certain time period) even though you never had a license or ceremony, the union is considered the same as a legal marriage. I believe this is to protect people from taking advantage of one another if they later decide to part ways and divide up proteries and care for children (if any).
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@ Bridget:
One more thing — you can obtain a license and go before a judge to say “I do” at any time if it will ease your mind. If you are in a different state than where you were married, you may now be considered married if that state has common law marriage status. You’d need to check that out.
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@ dee:
Well, you would have to get into the whole denominational (sacramental) aspect of marriage. I would have to see all the arguments around this.
I do agree with the Christian community witness and celebration. Most covenant making was a community event.
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@ dee: I honestly think Lewis was going out on a limb on this topic, but that’s just me… A legal marriage is a legal marriage, though I suspect part of his take has to do with a misinterpretation of Anglican views on marriage. (Just a hunch; I have no proof!)
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O.K. Now I feel like I have been terribly insensitive taking up “this” subject on “this particular” thread. I am sorry — even knowing we often go off subject. Big duhh for me!!
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@ Bridget:
I don’t want to high jack this thread either. Thank you so much for your answer. That really helps.
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@ Argo:
Totally agree with you, Argo. This was good and refreshing! My pondering leads me to how does one find these types of people and hang out with them? How do we be the Church without “doing institutional church” as we see it today?
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Ann wrote:
I’m glad you picked up on that Ann because that was what I really wanted to end up emphasizing. Thank you!
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Marshall Coleman wrote:
This is so interesting that you would share this, Marshall. It should be apparent to everyone by now that the whole SGM operation was never a church in the true sense and the pastors never functioned as if the people were the main priority. The main priority was always the pastors. Plus, when I heard the members of CLC were voting, it never rang true to me because I know as long as the pastors are in control, the people will never be invested with authority in the proper new covenant sense. The whole thing is fraudulent, you’re right!
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I love classic literature with strong female characters. Sometimes I think what would this one do or what would that one do. I don’t know how classic Anne of Green Gables is but I love Marilla Cuthbert in the story. She certainly was strong and had purpose. There were times during my sgm years when those characters gave me some relief from the insanity of church. I’ m not single but we are all humans trying to get by on this earth.
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@ Shannon H.:
I wish we could take what we have here at TWW and bring it into the “institutionalized” church. We interact pretty freely here regardless our “marital status,” theology, gender, etc. How to approach that in a local church would depend, I guess. If most of the single people in your church feel marginalized as you do, it may be worth bringing your collective concerns to your pastor. Switching churches may or may not help if many of your local churches tend to organize things the same way. Your idea of asking another a married couple out for lunch after church sounds like a great start. Maybe it would take you making that move to get the ball rolling.
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@ BTDT:
This is what I learned this winter about historical views on what made a marriage “legitimate.” Don’t know if this contributes to this discussion, but I’ve often found a historical perspective often helps. Seems that folks in the past would definitely have considered your marriage to be legitimate as long you committed yourself to your husband and moved in. : )
“The Fourth Lateran Council’s [1215] listing of marriage as a sacrament was an important step in a trend that had been gaining momentum in the previous century – demanding a church ceremony for legitimation of a marriage. In the year 1000 the majority of people in Christian Europe were not married in a church ceremony. Marriage involved Germanic-style cohabitation, frequently signified by the giving of a ring. By 1200 perhaps half the people in Western Europe, particularly among the wealthier and more literate classes, were married by a priest. After the Fourth Lateran Council, sacramental marriage in the church became the prescribed norm, although in 1500 there were still many peasants who were married by the simple rite of cohabitation. If the family involved had property, church marriage was now a necessity in order to assure legitimacy of offspring and uncontested inheritance. This was a way of increasing the importance of the priesthood in everyday life.”
-Norman Cantor, Civilization of the Middle Ages, p. 419
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@ Numo:
A sort of postscript to the things I said about whether my LCMS district is too “liberal” for St. Louis – today my mom told me that our district president quoted Albus Dumbledore from the pulpit as a sermon illustration. Don’t know if that means anything but I thought you’d find it amusing. : )
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FYI regarding state marriage licenses – I believe on the “No Longer Quiverfull” blog (or could be another linked there) that Vision Forum and the Botkins have discouraged couples from getting a marriage license. It may have been discussed on TWW.
Just like SGM’s obsession with the wicked “civil authorities” my guess is that they don’t want their “godly” marriages “tainted” by the requirements of the state.
Those people, like the issue with Steig Larsson, will be SOL if one of the spouses dies. In the eyes of the state they will not be married.
What a bloody crock and how criminally irresponsible. According to this logic then I guess wills are “ungodly” as the family patriarch will dispose of the deceased person’s assets? Sheesh.
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Shannon
I will try to touch on your questions on Wednesday.
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Isn’t it interesting how the internet has been used to broaden communication between people and worked to break down walls that normally divide human beings along the lines you mentioned such as married or single, theology, gender – and I might add nationality, economic class, race and age?
And isn’t that what Jesus worked to accomplish? To break down all those same barriers and make us one in Him?
Yet, what do we find in the very place where people are supposed to be experiencing that freedom of expression and mutual interaction? We usually find those walls that divide us, and sometimes more narrowly defined than the world! Yet those very church institutions will be the ones to claim how counter-culture they are! They are not counter culture at all! Their institutions are built on worldly principles verses the principles of God’s Kingdom. Consequently the communication and interaction that God wills to happen between His people for the purpose of edification and building up the Body is suppressed and controlled by church leaders that place their own manmade restrictions on it. Like the scripture asks, “When the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?”
I always thinks its rather a litmus test as well when you see these same groups that are structured on obsolete, legalistic, worldly principles who denounce the internet and the free exchange of information between all kinds of people. I think they despise it when they aren’t the ones controlling the terms and conditions upon which unity and agreement can be established and built between people, especially when it involves people who come together in agreement over their spiritually abusive conduct and behavior! Clearly they don’t like the people to have any power!
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@ Rafiki:
Not surprised to hear that about Vision Forum. But lest we think only hyper-conservatives do this, Tony Jones also doesn’t believe in state recognition of marriage and he’s pretty far in the other direction from Phillips’ position theologically. Very different logic, same result. Personally I agree with you that this is pretty risky per the legal standing of the spouse in inheritance law.
http://www.mereorthodoxy.com/hubbub-marriage-tony-jones-lisa-miller/
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@Hester
It’s good to know that, historically, the church viewed a Christian ceremonial marriage as legitimate. 🙂
@Rafiki
Yes, I believe my church had the same views as Vision Forum and the Botkins. (Though I’d never heard of either of them until after I was out of my church) The fallout that would take place should one of us die has me concerned.
So, if there are any single people reading this blog who belong to a church that does not allow marriage licenses, please consider this carefully. These are typically the same types of churches that will “disfellowship” you for minor infractions (like not agreeing with the pastor), and leave you in the larger world where your marriage may be questionable. In retrospect, I wished we’d left the church and had a civil ceremony.
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numo wrote:
Numo – I think I’m a lone voice for Christopher Eccleston. When I was wee, John Pertwee was the Doctor, and he used to scare me more than the monsters.
(For any younger readers, I should point out that in those days we were not hardened by CGI and other special effects, so a lumbering studio hand in a latex foam monster suit actually was scary.)
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@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Sorry to get worked up in my last comment, BTDT. Didn’t mean for my foot stomping editorializing on Vision Forum to sound as if I was casting judgement your particular situation or to cause you to feel bad. 🙁
I think that getting the license is analogous to having a will drawn up is all. “Dotting the ‘i’s’ and crossing the ‘t’s’ ” and protecting oneself regarding the law – as you noted. 🙂
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@ Nick Bulbeck: I liked Christopher Eccleston, but I think he either
– wasn’t allowed to develop the character properly
– was (maybe) a bit miscast
As for being scared by John Pertwee, I can imagine! otoh, I have a blogging pal whose small children love to “play Daleks.” (Not sure if they’ve seen the newest versions – I kinda doubt it.)
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alr wrote:
Alr – that is very interesting, and something that I’d never realised properly until I read your post. And I can’t help but make an observation here.
However confused and upset your evangelical friend may have been by your actions, the reality is that she almost certainly doesn’t get any real fellowship in her Sunday meetings either. There’s coffee and chit-chat, to be sure, and possibly some praying together here and there. But she’ll get perhaps two minutes of conversation with each person. That ain’t koinonia.
It saddens me to say this, but the cheap slinging around of the word “fellowship” in many congregations, both evangelical and charismatic, has meant that many Christians have never really discovered true friendship. You cannot truly share the ups, downs, triumphs and tragedies of life together in a traditional evangelical service. For that matter, you can’t actually do a fat lot together in any kind of artificial, liturgical setting. Real life happens out there as we face challenges together, and if I’m honest, I’ve had far closer fellowship with my rock-climbing buddies as we worked away at a hard problem on Yorkshire gritstone – until we’d all beaten it – than I have in most church settings.
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@ Nick Bulbeck: Or
– they didn’t quite know where they were going with the character at first
my money is on this and my (possibly) whether Eccleston had the freedom to develop the character
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@ BeenThereDoneThat: Re. marriage licenses – it’s hard enough for widows (legally) in terms of finances after a husband dies. For someone who *doesn’t* have the correct legal status, it could be even more of a nightmare, especially if there are young children involved.
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@ Rafiki:
No worries. I didn’t even read your last comment as “foot stomping.” 🙂 Honestly, I’m just so glad to have all of you to talk to. Married, single, or whatever. 🙂 I just appreciate the input.
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@ Hester: That *is* funny!
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@ BeenThereDoneThat: Likewise!
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numo wrote:
Eccleston’s departure after only one series caused a little surprise and was shrouded in a certain amount of mystery; Eccleston himself was fairly tight-lipped about it and only later revealed that he left “because I could not get along with the senior people. I left because of politics. I did not see eye to eye with them. I didn’t agree with the way things were being run. I didn’t like the culture that had grown up around the series. So I left, I felt, over a principle.” Which was a shame.
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@ numo:
Thank you, Numo. That is the kind of thought that’s helping me to make the decisions I need to make. I thought I had it covered. 🙂 But, I’ll face it, and deal with it now. We’ll probably register our common-law marriage with the county.
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick – I liked him too.
Did you hide behind the sofa when you watched Dr Who as a kind? I know I did 🙂
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*kid* as a kid…note to self; do not comment after a busy Youth Club session…
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Sorry to take us a little off topic, but I’ve been reading the transcript of that comment by Christopher Eccleston and I was struck by this part of it. Bear with me, everyone: this is instructive.
I think that captures the essence of why many (not all, but many) people remain in abusive/controlling churches. I spend a decade in such a church because I honestly believed that it would in some way give me a secure career spiritually (it certainly wasn’t going to benefit me financially). I did this despite all the s**t I had to eat in the process. Of course, when you do that, “on a grand scale you will lose whatever it is about you and it will be present in your work” – which in the context of an actor speaking, means that it will diminish all of your God-given gifts and calling.
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Beakerj wrote:
No, I used to watch from behind the lounge door.
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Evie wrote:
This is one reason I’m alarmed to find that authoritarianism is creeping into the SBC and other denominations. The problem of marital status segregation will likely get worse. And the pastor won’t want to hear any criticism of how HIS church is falling short.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The key to a successful con/swindle is to get the mark/sucker so emotionally involved in the con that he can’t back out, even when he realizes he’s being taken. You see the same idea with Vegas slots being programmed to ALMOST hit the Big Jackpot when they miss. The idea that “I *ALMOST* HIT THE JACKPOT!” is what keeps the sucker dropping the coins and pulling the level until all his money is gone.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Further confusing the issue, American Christianese uses “Fellowship” as both noun and verb to describe any sort of interaction. Some splinter churches who don’t want to be called churches also call themselves “Christian Fellowships” instead of churches.
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@ BTDT:
Oops…what I meant to point out with that excerpt was that church ceremonials were NOT required for at least the first thousand years of Christianity (thus the part about peasants simply initiating cohabitation before the year 1000). Sorry if I didn’t make that clear. : )
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
If you have to schlep over to the courthouse you might as well make a party of it by going out afterwards for a big “honeymoon” dinner with your husband. 🙂
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Thank you, BTDT. I’m an admin. on a secular discussion board and it’s like here–people will mention they’re married or single, and it’s no issue. But I have also noticed on *Christian* discussion boards they are very segregated into groups.
Thanks, Dee re Wednesday.
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@ Nick Bulbeck: He’s a very talented actor, and I can easily see him doing Shakespeare and the like.
Also, I have no doubt that what he says about the insider stuff is all true…
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Bridget wrote:
Yes, in my thinking. Acceptable to God but probably not ideal (or as meaningful or “real”) in a lot of people’s eyes. I think what matters the most when it comes to common law marriage, is what is in the hearts of the two people involved. If they call it marriage and it’s considered such legally then…well, that would be good enough for me, at least. The mere existence of laws of the land regarding marriage personally irritate me, but as you and others have said, they are often for the best…
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Nick
We just figured out our smart tv which is waaaaaay smarter than my husband and me.We had been using Apple Tv without difficulty but have made the leap to internet based programming via Amazon. I have long been a member of Amazon Primebecause of their 2 day shipping and they now have free movies and tv shows for members, including all of the Dr Who seasons (and Downton Abbey). So, I have decded to go through all of the seasons, catching up on missed episodes. It should be a lovely spring.
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Been There
I am really interested in doing a post on this marriage license thing. I had not heard of this before. However, i once knew a guy who had been into one pf these fringe groups which believed it was unbiblical to pay taxes, get driver’s licenses, etc. he was arrested and sent to prison for 15 months. He landed in a Bible study group I attended, tottally mollifed and upset that eh had been sucked in. He was really nice guy but he needed to get back to Christianity 101.
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Dee – You might check out Mike Pearl. In my KoolAid days, we heard him speak several times and he used to pretty much brag about the fact that his adult children were not getting married licenses with the heathen government.
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Dee, if I remember correctly, they looked at Paul as single, but he was an apostle at the beginning of the church, not an elder today.