Hallowing Halloween and Hell House Madness

"Halloween was confusing. All my life my parents said, "Never take candy from strangers." And then they dressed me up and said, "Go beg for it." I didn’t know what to do! I’d knock on people’s doors and go, "Trick or treat." "No thank you." Rita Rudner

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Wikicommons:3268zauber

 

This post is merely my perspective on Halloween. I assume there will be Christians who disagree with me.

As many of our readers know, I grew up in Salem, Massachusetts. My high school mascot was a witch on a broomstick. Salem’s chief industry is tourism due to the rich history which includes the misguided and superstitious Puritan witch trials. All Salem school children are taught that the people who were hung (one was pressed-no burnings in Salem) were not witches but people caught in a web of superstition and land grabs. So, for us, dressing up on Halloween was awesome fun and Salem did it up big. In fact, except for Christmas morning, Halloween was my favorite “holiday.”

So, when my kids came along, I wanted them to experience the same joy and fun. In fact, my kids and I trick or treated with Ed Young JR and his family one Halloween a long, long time ago. How far I have fallen!

I was surprised when some Christians told me that I was supporting the devil’s holiday by my activities. Was I? Well, Dee was not about to give up on Halloween without sufficient evidence. How did that turn out? Well, today, I am munching on candy corn as I look at my soon to be carved pumpkin. I only wish I had a little kid to accompany on her glorious rounds.

In fact, my now college aged son told me recently that Halloween was his absolute favorite holiday. I have precious memories of him dressed up as a Ninja, running around the neighborhood with his little buddies and then coming back to my house, dumping their treats in piles and trying to decide who got the most! He always saved some Baby Ruth bars for his mom!

As he got older, I let him attend the Halloween Houses sponsored by the Jaycees. One of the funniest memories I have is of him, in the 7th grade, tearing out of the “house”, while screaming, with his three best buddies, being pursued by a skeleton wielding a very loud saw-less chain saw.  Worried that it was too much for him, I told him we could go home. He refused, saying it was a “blast” and reentered several times.

So now you have it. I am a godless, Satan worshipping, abusive mom!  Or am I?

Today, I would like to address two topics. One is my perspective on the Halloween and the other is my concern about the plethora of Hell Houses.

The History of Halloween

Joe Carter wrote an article on the history of Halloween called 9 Things You should Know About Halloween, which was posted at The Gospel Coalition here.

Here are four of the nine points. The last two points were particularly relevant to my hometown of Salem which had many immigrants from Ireland.

  • The word Halloween was first used in the 16th century and represents a Scottish variant of the fuller All Hallows' Even ('evening'), the night before All Hallows' Day.
  • Reformation Day celebrates Martin Luther's nailing his ninety-five theses to the church door Wittenberg, Germany on October 31, 1517.
  • The Puritans maintained strong opposition to Halloween and it was not until the mass Irish and Scottish immigration during the 19th century that it was brought to North America.
  • Taking from Irish and English traditions, Americans in the mid-1800's began to dress up in costumes and go house to house asking for food or money, a practice that eventually became today's "trick-or-treat" tradition.

Russell Moore took a break from developing the definitive rules for gospel and biblical gender roles to write a humorous post called Halloween and Evangelical Identity here. Don’t say I have never said a nice thing about Calvinistas.

  • An evangelical is a fundamentalist whose kids dress up for Halloween.
  • A conservative evangelical is a fundamentalist whose kids dress up for the church’s “Fall Festival.”
  • A confessional evangelical is a fundamentalist whose kids dress up as Zwingli and Bucer for “Reformation Day.”
  • A revivalist evangelical is a fundamentalist whose kids dress up as demons and angels for the church’s Judgment House community evangelism outreach.
  • An Emerging Church evangelical is a fundamentalist who has no kids, but who dresses up for Halloween anyway.
  • A fundamentalist is a fundamentalist whose kids hand out gospel tracts to all those mentioned above.

Hell Houses

So, what s the deal with what Moore calls “Judgment Houses.” McLean Bible Church, the former church of Eagle-our regular commenter and friend, has such a "house." (This one is for you, Eagle). Here is an excerpt from the Christian Post called Virginia Megachurch Hosts Halloween Terror Maze for Hundreds of Students.

“Kelsey Herrera, spokeswoman from The Rock Student Ministries (ed. Note MBC youth program), told The Christian Post that the main purpose of the event is "to clearly share the Gospel with the 6th-12th graders who go through the maze."

"This is the only reason we host the event (or any event here at the Rock), to have the opportunity to tell students about the person and work of Jesus Christ," said Herrera.”

Sutherland “stressed that the goal will be "to scare" the students, albeit within limits.

“According to Herrera, this year the "Terror Maze" had over 1,500 volunteers and students present. There were 79 students who decided to commit their lives to Jesus Christ.”

Here are their main talking points.

  • These houses appear to target middle and high school students.
  • The kids are supposed to be scared.
  • The church is sharing the "Gospel."
  • The church expects kids to “commit" their lives to Jesus.

My concerns:

  • Is this an effective way to present the Gospel to children?
  • Could it be perceived as coercive?
  • Are conversions in the midst of coercion true conversions?
  • Why don’t any of these churches follow up with their youth conversions over a number of years to see how many “took?”

I will get back to this in a moment.

What is the history behind these Hell Houses?

The Huffington Post wrote an interesting article on Hell Houses here.

  • “Keenan Roberts has done more than anyone else to turn it into an industry. For $299—and with the Denver-based pastor’s approval—you can build your own “Hell House,” complete with theatrical scenes of teen suicides and gay marriages gone wrong.”
  • Roberts did not invent the idea but he has capitalized on it.
  • Apparently,  “Jerry Falwell is generally credited with first popularizing the idea in the 70s.”


Roberts stated goal (besides making money):

“The number one priority is reaching people with the message that sin destroys and Jesus saves,”

Are Hell Houses effective in meeting the stated goal?

  • He claims around “1 in 4 of the more than 75,000 who have attended his church’s version have decided to join the Christian faith or renewed their commitment to it.”
  • Is there an agenda?
  • “Since 1996, has sold more than one thousand Hell House kits to youth pastors and churches. “

Once again, I need to point out that there is rarely any follow-up that assesses the actual,long-term, Christian commitment after a coercive event. I tire of hearing that xxxxx number of people gave their lives to Jesus. Did they? Only time will tell. Could it be that they do not want to know how ineffective such coercive conversions really are?

What is in the “Hell House” kit.

“Roberts’s house typically consists of seven rooms. In each, a different “sin” is played out to its horrid conclusion. Roberts plays a demon. Dressed in a long black robe, with a bumpy grey mask and large black horns, he guides guests from room to room—from a lesbian suicide to a drunk-driving induced car crash to a rave where a church girl takes ecstasy and dies, (the manual suggests the demon tour guide declare here, “just another day at the office!”). The themes vary a bit from year to year, but abortion and damned gay people are constants.”

Two Christian posts opposing Hell Houses:

Post 1

Once again, (this is going to be a record, probably due to candy corn over-dosage) I found a post by Russell Moore called Seven Reasons Halloween Judgment Houses Often Miss the Mark here. I disagree with some of his perspectives. However, the following two points are thoughtful

"6. The Holy Spirit doesn’t usually like to work that way.
Pop quiz: How many people do you know who came to know Christ through the witness of a friend? How many do you know who came to know Christ through faithful parents? How many are in Christ due to the week-to-week preaching of Christ in a local church? Probably a lot, right?
Okay, now answer this: How many people do you know who came to know Christ through a Halloween “Judgment House” or “Hell House”? If you know one, you’re outpacing me, and everyone I’ve ever talked to about this. The Holy Spirit tends to work through the preaching of Christ (Rom 10:17). That’s how he points the world to sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8)."


"7. They’re easier to pull off than talking to people.
But the fact remains that most lost people in your neighborhood are going to be saved the same way people have always been saved, by Christian people loving them enough to build relationships, invite them to church, share the gospel, and witness to Christ. The problem is that for many Christian’s that’s scarier than a haunted house."

Post 2

I found an excellent article opposed to Hell Houses on the Reclaiming the Mind blog called A Real Halloween Horror Hell House link. I highly recommend that you read the whole post. Dee gives them a standing ovation!

“to frighten and condemn people using such deceptive and horrific tactics is abusive, both to the people who witness them and to the gospel itself, not to mention that it makes Christianity look vicious.

“I see nothing of these tactics used in the pages of scripture to win people to Christ.  If anything, Jesus Himself reached out to the very ones these scenarios condemn – the outcast, the abused, the neglected and the mistreated.  Can you imagine if He made the woman with the issue of blood watch a scenario that only emphasized the horror of her situation?”

“The problem with highlighting these scenarios and equating them with damnation, is that it negates the real problem that separates us from God.  Sin is our problem not bad behavior. “

“Friends, this is no way to do evangelism.  It is abusive to people and to the gospel.  It treats people as nothing more than commodities to gain in order to satisfy a quest of Christian accomplishment.  If we are so concerned about the people that God came to rescue, wouldn’t it be better to use the opportunity of Halloween to feed people, to give them treats and not tricks?“

But can Christians enjoy Halloween?

The short answer is yes!

About 12 years ago, I found an excellent article written by Anderson Rearick called Hallowing Halloween posted in Christianity Today link.  I made copies of it and kept them around in case another “friend” pointed out my appalling lack of Christian commitment by letting my kids “trick or treat.” It is still my “go to” article.

“Should the forces of evil be mocked? Should Satan be laughed at? He most certainly should be. At the beginning of The Screwtape Letters, C. S. Lewis includes two telling quotations, the first from Martin Luther, the second from Thomas More

1. "The best way to drive out the devil, if he will not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."

2. "The devil … the proud spirit cannot endure to be mocked."

“The one thing Satan cannot bear is to be a source of laughter. His pride is undermined by his own knowledge that his infernal rebellion against God is in reality an absurd farce. Hating laughter, he demands to be taken seriously.”

“Indeed, I would say that those Christians who spend the night of October 31 filled with concern over what evils might be (and sometimes are) taking place are doing the very thing Lucifer wants them to do. By giving him this respect, such believers are giving his authority credence.”

“In any event, I doubt the anti-Halloween party will prevail. This tactic was tried before—with Christmas. In the 17th century, because of its pagan ancestry and because it was a Roman Catholic holiday (Christ-mass!), many Protestants decided that true believers should not recognize Christmas. In 1620 our pilgrim forefathers purposely started unloading the Mayflower on Christmas Day to make the point to the crew that they were not going to observe such an evil day.”

Hmm, we are back to the Puritans of my hometown of Salem. For those of you who have never been inside a Hell House, here is a You Tube video. Warning: It is graphic. Now, back to eating candy corn. Happy Halloween all!

Lydia's Corner: Leviticus 14:1-57 Mark 6:30-56 Psalm 40:1-10 Proverbs 10:11-12

Comments

Hallowing Halloween and Hell House Madness — 292 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I was traumatized as a child when I knocked on a door for candy and was turned away with the very somber and ominous words, “We doooon’t cellebrate halloweeeen”. I mean I really seriously was shaken. I assume they were JW’s, because they were the only folks I knew back then, who never celebrated anything.
    Slightly unrelated, years later I was at a sporting event and some people nearby didn’t stand for the national anthem. Likely JW’s again. “Communists!” my friend muttered.
    Still later, my wife and I went through a patriarchal/overprotective phase, but without the homeschooling. So we took the kids out of school for the halloween and “winter” parties. The only other parents to do so? JW’s!


  2. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    See,

    How silly can we get…Ghosts, Goblins, Ghouls, Witches and Warlocks….no different than Jesus, God, Holy Spirit and Angles…all make believe. Hey maybe a holiday where we can all dress up as Jesus or God..then maybe we won’t take them seriously either.


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    Fendrel

    Just because goblins and other made up beings are make believe does not mean that all are make believe. And, Jesus did too good a job of being Jesus, I couldn’t even begin to imitate Him!

     


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “The problem with highlighting these scenarios and equating them with damnation, is that it negates the real problem that separates us from God. Sin is our problem not bad behavior. “

    But accepting this statement would require a complete rework many peoples ‘theology’. It is all about the ‘do’, and the hell house is another ‘do’ to show that you are a good christian.


  5. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Here is even more irony about Hell Houses. Lucifer. He is not red with horns and pitchfork holding a glass of poison. He is deceptive. He is alluring. He asks makes very subtle suggestions such as “surely God did not say….” He makes very tempting offers: If you do this….I will give you that….


  6. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    The hell houses are certainly silly and miss the mark, no question. But what I find interesting is how much they are a reflection of mainstream evangelicalism’s moralism, which often focuses only on sins that affect the body and virtually ignore other sins that rot the mind and soul. Specifically, the sins of greed, covetousness, lust for power, and contempt for other human beings are usually passsed over (often with all too predictable results).

    As for us, we’ll take the opportunity to demonstrate the kind of ridiculous generosity and joy that Jesus brings, without beating people over the head. We bought the big bag of chocolate goodies at Costco (teh good stuff, no cheap hard candies) and will be handing out lots of it to all the trick or treaters tonight.


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    ” But what I find interesting is how much they are a reflection of mainstream evangelicalism’s moralism, which often focuses only on sins that affect the body and virtually ignore other sins that rot the mind and soul. Specifically, the sins of greed, covetousness, lust for power, and contempt for other human beings are usually passsed over (often with all too predictable results).”

    Oh John, you are so right!


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Fendrel said, “Hey maybe a holiday where we can all dress up as Jesus or God..then maybe we won’t take them seriously either.”
    I’m reminded of Lewis’ Last Battle, where he has an Ass dress up as Aslan. Then this conversation:
    ‘”Assuredly,” said the Calormene. “The enlightened Ape-Man, I mean-is in the right. Aslan means neither less nor more than Tash.”
    “Especially, Aslan means no more than Tash?” suggested the Cat.
    “No more at all,” said the Calormene, looking the Cat straight in the face.’


  9. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    John

    Awesome comment. “But what I find interesting is how much they are a reflection of mainstream evangelicalism’s moralism, which often focuses only on sins that affect the body and virtually ignore other sins that rot the mind and soul. Specifically, the sins of greed, covetousness, lust for power, and contempt for other human beings are usually passsed over (often with all too predictable results).”

    PS Make sure you save me some Baby Ruths!


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Centurion faith: heeling for the nation?

        Hello,

           One afternoon, a certain man prayed fervently and quietly: Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. That is why for some time I have not even considered myself worthy to come before to you in prayer. But say the word, and my nation will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with men under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my employee, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 

    When Jesus heard this, he was quite amazed at the man, and turning to His Father, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in all of America.”  I shall give him all he asks!

    Consider Carefully?

    You Decide.

    IronClad


  11. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Thanks for this article, Dee! I admire you guys greatly, and here’s even one more reason to do so. I have always loved Halloween, and my parents always let me make a big deal about celebrating it (even though I had a few friends who thought it was evil).

    Now, as an adult, I still celebrate! We decorate the house. I dress up to hand out candy (usually as my favorite movie or TV character). We enjoy spooky movies. I freely admit that Halloween is actually my 2nd favorite holiday.

    Ironically, my favorite holiday is Easter 🙂 Which many people would think is a contradiction in terms. But I have just never seen the big deal about shunning Halloween. I’m pretty sure Jesus knows what’s in my heart, and he knows that I”m handing out candy and having fun.


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    My mom used to think of Halloween as a great opportunity to show hospitality and love to people we do not know well. What other holiday do perfect strangers come to your home and they can walk away thinking, what nice people– I would like to know them better?


  13. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I’ve always liked the “fall” things associated with Halloween (cider, carving pumpkins, etc.) but the spooky aspects have never been my thing. So… all that to say that I was part of the anti-Halloween brigade for a few years.

    Now, though…not so much (at all!) I wonder if Halloween has become our version of Carnival (mostly celebrated in Roman Catholic countries) where people put on crazy costumes and everything gets turned upside down for a few days… 😉

    I *would* give candy to trick-or-treaters *if* they were neighborhood kids, but these days, they’re kids who are driven into the ‘hood from neighboring towns; some of them have to be HS age.

    So – no candy for you, impostors! 😉


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    Numo “No candy for you, imposters!”
    After a couple anti-halloween evenings spent hiding in our basement, we started taking an approach like yours. We would give candy to JHS and HS aged kids, but ONLY in costume, and we’d make them do tricks for it. Saw some pretty good song-and-dance, gymnastics, poetry etc!


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dave A A – well hey – that sounds like fun!!! If I had some candy here, I’d give it a try. (Am recovering from being sick, plus the stores cleared out almost all H’ween stuff a few weeks ago to put in xmas decs., candy, etc.)

    I *still* don’t like a lot of H’ween imagery, but I think it’s great for kids to be able to run around in costumes, get candy, and generally have fun.


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    DaveAA

    A+ reference from the Last Battle. A dressed up ass will always look like a dressed up ass. Eventually, they will act like an ass and that is what gives them away.


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    Numo

    Will and two of friends went out on Halloween when they were juniors in high school. They dressed up as Domino’s pizza guys-hat, costume and a thing for the roof of their car. They would go up to homes and say “Here is your pepperoni pizza. That will be $x.” And stand there and stare. As the person launched into how they didn’t order a pizza, they woud say “trick or treat.” The nieghbors laughed and many took pictures with them. Oh yeah, they gave them candy as well and Will brought me home a couple of Baby Ruth bars

    I told him I was afraid that people would be mad. But, he showed me the pictures of people laughing and taking pictures with him and their families. He is a lot like his old lady, I think!


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dave AA 

    See what my son did at that age! 


  19. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee – that’s hilarious!!! *Definitely* candy-worthy. 😀


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    MBC: A church that values Jesus & people?

        Hello,

           Our friend Eagle has, at times past, mentioned the ministry of the believers of McLean Bible Church. As it is important to give a balanced view, the following has been graciously included for the readers of Wartburg Watch:

    For further information, Pastor Lon Solomon can be reached @ 703.639.2000

           At McLean Bible, everything they do is defined and guided by ten core values, ensuring that everything they do is aligned with the vision, God has graciously given them. Which is, they are dedicated to developing fully devoted followers of Jesus Christ, encouraging others to grow, connect, serve,  and share in what Christ has done for them. They have many events and programs, studies, locations,and services, to ensure this is possible.

           Lon Solomon and the believers at MBC are making a difference in Washington and beyond,  and just so that you know, he has extended a warm invitation, open to all, he smiles and says this often, always following it up with: “Not a sermon, just a thought!”

    So What? What is at the core of McLean Bible Church?

    Let’s take a closer look:

    People matter to God and to this group of believers. Luke 15

    The Gospel message transforms people’s lives. 2 Corinthians 5:17

    The goal of this church ministry is to transform people into fully devoted followers of Christ. Matthew 28:18-20, Ephesians 4:11-16

    At MBC, they believe that ministry and evangelism must be carried out in a relevant way. 1 Corinthians 9:22b

    At MBC, they believe that people must be treated gently and respectfully. 1 Peter 3:15

    Thar people need to be connected to a caring community. Acts 4:34-35

    That every Christian has a God-given ministry. Ephesians 4:12

    At MBC, they are encouraged and exhorted that everything they do must be done with excellence. Colossians 3:23-24

    That the believers at MBC church must have an evangelistic impact on our community. Acts 6:7, 1 Thessalonians 1:8

    To accomplish their mission, believers must be willing to step out in visionary faith and take risks for God. Hebrews 11:6

    They have, they will, they do, 365 days a year!

    Your kind prayers are requested.

    Blessings!

    IronClad


    Reference:
    http://www.mcleanbible.org/uploads/Core_Values(2).pdf


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    Dee- what is on Miss Petunias agenda this evening? Will she be wearing a costume and going trick or treating?

    How about a pug blog? You could call it The Pampered Pug Watch and give us daily updates on Miss Tulip, Lily and Petunia!


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    Ironclad

    Excellent observation from MBC site. 


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    The belted Cow

    Hmmmm, i neither recognize your name or your email but you obviously know me. So, I wonder….did you make a visit to The Fearrington House recently. Those are my favorite cows!!! I am currently enjoying some wonderful chocolates as well!


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    Belted Cow

    The girls miss the attention. I am way too boring.


  25. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I have not done the Halloween bit in years. Several personal reasons why. If you want to, call it Halloween, Fall Festival, Reformation Day Celebration, have at it.
    We now live so far out in the woods we don’t have not had anyone come by in years, so we’ll probably just make some roasted peanuts, drink a Dr Pepper, and watch a movie on Netflix….Pretty much a normal Fall night at our house.


  26. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I know Eagle did not have a good experience at McLean Bible. I, on the other hand, had some good experiences and know some people well worth knowing there. However, I felt it had grown too big and too impersonal. I was actually surprised at the house of horrors event, and don’t remember such an event when I attended there.


  27. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Shhh! Don’t tell the fundamentalists and Calvinistas, but the Puritans were none too fond of Christmas either.


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    Halloween never made it down here. There are now some decorations sold in shops (it’s another way to make money!) but it isn’t observed. Trick or treating is pretty much non-existent, but some adults use it as an excuse to have fancy dress parties.
    I watched that video, and I don’t see how anyone could take that Hell House seriously – it was so unintentionally hilarious. I think most people would go through it laughing, and probably see Christians as utterly ridiculous. It’s pretty clear the people who make up the scenarios don’t know what they’re talking about. I haven’t been to a rave, but I’ve been to scores of concerts and music festivals, and the worst I’ve encountered is a couple of people pushing through the crowd. The ‘let’s drug and rape the new girl’ scenario? Doesn’t really happen.
    I’m sure those running the Hell Houses think their doing great (gospel) work, but I doubt they have any positive impact.


  29. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Fendrel, this isn’t the place to try to convert people to atheism.


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    The other thing that stood out to me was the (apologies if this term is offensive to some) slut-shaming. Everything negative related to women and girls was about them being dirty tramps. Why, when the discussion is about premarital sex, is it always the woman who is blamed and seen as the bad example? As they say, it takes two to tango.


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    Pam, the spiking of drinks and rapes at parties do indeed happen.


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    Dee,
    A dressed-up Ass may even wear a three-piece suit. 🙂 or even a mickey-mouse t-shirt.


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    Nicholas, they’re very rare occurances. They certainly do not occur in the way the video above presents them, that was completely farcical. Most rapes and assaults are by people the victim knows, not by a random stranger.


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    Dee –

    I was in Hell House before. But I’ve been out of SGM for several years now. Those guys scared the evangelical out of me!

    Warmly,
    Former SG Pastor

    PS – For Halloween this year I am re-re-rereading CSL “The Great Divorce”. It abounds with ghosts and spirits and pithy treats. Also, Ms FSGP and I will attend an outdoor screening of “Dark Shadows”. Bwahahaha!


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    Interesting comments all.

    Maybe it’s a European thing, but my own feeling is that Halloween does get a little close to some of the pagan beliefs that held sway in the British Isles. However a read through of the Wikipedia article seems to indicate that there is disagreement about the origin of the custom, how far it is influenced by either Christianity or paganism, and how Christian groups view it today. Personally I feel it is a bit odd to want to commemorate entities which are largely seen as negative, but I’m not going to get into a battle about it (Rom 14).

    I think our church got a reasonable approach in suggesting that people give sweets to trick or treaters and a leaflet (a reasonable one, not some of the more lurid ones!). But actually this year it’s been quiet – maybe the cold weather had something to do with it!

    I have reservations about the “Hell House” phenomena as well. I wouldn’t say that God hasn’t saved people before through an awakening of their fear of his judgement, but again that may be the Holy Spirit’s working in a particular individual, perhaps one who could not be reached either way. C S Lewis noted in one of his essays that “divines” of previous ages seemed surprised and shocked that people were not generally converted no matter how luridly they portrayed the effect of a Christless eternity, and he suggested that once the purely psychological effect wore off the listeners’ hearts were unchanged. On the other hand, Jonathan Edwards’ notorious “Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God” did have some effect – but R T Kendall said when he tried to repeat the experiment with this sermon, it seemed to have no effect and at least one person had fallen asleep! So I would fall on the “sovereignty” side of the debate in this particular example in that I believe God uses whichever methods he chooses to bring people to himself – trying to manufacture revivals, whether by Finney’s methods or more modern ones, seems to have a bit of a chequered history.


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    Sorry, I meant “…. one who could not be reached any other way”.


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    Hmmm….first, every person I’ve known who went through a Hell House, far from being ‘convicted’ and ‘converted’, was just plain ticked off. They spent good money to go through a haunted house and felt like they got the old bait and switch. Which, actually, they did. This concept that we have to highlight and magnify people’s sins or they will never get saved is so not (pardon the use of the word) Scriptural. Paul actually wrote that (gasp) it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance.

    I was confronted by a Calvinista type on another blog a while back. He accused me of being a heretic, blasphemous, back-slidden and following the blog author to hell. When that didn’t seem to rile me up, he asked, “are you trying to tell me that you came to salvation without having the Law preached to you?” That was the point where I just walked away. But the short answer is, “Yes.” It was the preaching and condemnation of the Law that almost drove me away from Him.

    As to the Jaycees Haunted Houses…. I was a Jaycee for some time – even spent a couple years as president. And our Haunted House was a local legend/landmark. 🙂
    Ours had a 9 foot grim reaper with a chain-less chainsaw. He was a contractor and would wear drywall stilts and had a custom made costume. He scared people the most and was why they came. And yes, they would run out screaming – full tilt…and get right back in line. It was a blast!


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    Oh, I also wanted to add, on the idea of coerced confessions… they generally do not hold up in a court of law…..


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    FSGP

    I grew up watching the old Dark Shadows. Love it! And The Great Divorce was awesome. But you must eat candy corns while watching and reading.


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    Halloween in Salem! Must be nearly an art form. We were in Salem the weekend before Halloween last year and got caught in the middle of an elementary school costume parade outside the witch museum. Adorable and some very creative outfits.

    My family didn’t do Halloween when I was kid. My parents had some “Christian” reasons, but they weren’t very strident and they’ve sort of eroded over the years. (I think mostly they were a bit nervous because there were two active covens in our area.) Then last year I dressed up as the original Hester for a presentation and I realized that dressing up is more fun than I thought it would be…

    What’s even funnier than how paranoid some Christians get about Halloween are all the Christian alternatives that are NOT THE SAME AS HALLOWEEN!!!! Like the somewhat ambiguous phenomenon of the “harvest party,” where all the kids dress up and go to each classroom and get candy (which is NOT trick-or-treating!). And sorry to be blunt, but hell houses are just stupid. Good point above that they only focus on “showy” sins and not the insidious ones.


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    Have you heard of “Hellbound?” It’s an very insightful new documentary that examines the Biblical doctrine of Hell. In it are several scenes from a hell house. Director Kevin Miller asks one of the church members hosting the house if he thinks Jesus would use them as a way to witness. The guys response: “Welllllllll . . . . I’d have to think about that.” Point made.

    Incidentally: the movie also features Driscoll drawing what he calls “state boundaries” (grey areas where Christians can move freely back and forth and, in his mind, still be Christians) and “National boundaries” that simply can’t be crossed (the idea of universal reconciliation being, in his mind, a National boundary).


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    “The Puritans maintained strong opposition to Halloween and it was not until the mass Irish and Scottish immigration during the 19th century that it was brought to North America.”

    Yes, well, the Puritans maintained “strong opposition” to a lot of things – church organs, religious sculpture and fiction, just to name a few. Christmas was another one. It wasn’t widely celebrated in New England till the late 19th century. So he may be proving too much here by appealing to the Puritans.


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    And yes, Dee, Russell Moore’s list there is actually pretty funny. One to add to the “confessional evangelical” category – the folks at the PCA church I used to attend made a cake for Reformation Day decorated like the Wittenberg church doors.


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    Nicholas – Fendrel is a long-time commenter, actually.. and seems like a pretty nice guy to me, though I disagree with him as far as atheism/belief in God.

    Hester – my *favorite* H’ween thing is to recommend that people read Nathaniel Hawthorne’s story “Young Goodman Brown.” Talk about church-related horror! (Obvy, his family’s involvement in the witch trials has a lot to do with what he depicts in the story, as well as his reason for writing it in the 1st place.)

    As for dressing up, hey – it’s fun! I’m really not a fan of the more “lurid” (as Kolya says) aspects of H’ween, but I love seeing little kids in creative costumes… and for us adults, it’s a chance to kick back a bit, wearing costumes and all of that.

    Maybe I need to visit Salem at H’ween time – while I realize that Samhain is a “pagan” holiday, there’s also William Booth’s (founder of Salvation army) comment re. “Why should the devil have all the good tunes?”

    And it can – as Anon 1 pointed out above – be a time for hospitality.

    personally, my fave on-the-rack costume this year was a baby snuggle sack that looked like a ladybug. (If they’d had jack o’ lantern hats in adult sizes, I would have bought one and worn it!)


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    the folks at the PCA church I used to attend made a cake for Reformation Day decorated like the Wittenberg church doors.

    How funny – they go much further than Lutherans would. 😉

    In this area, most Lutheran and Methodist churches have Reformation Sunday recitals/concerts. We Lutherans love our chorales!


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    Dee – Dark Shadows was so much fun, and silly, too. I was about 13 when it 1st came on, and remember that a lot of girls had crushes on Barnabas Collins. (I thought he was attractive, but a little too gaunt.)


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    @ Numo:

    Yeah, nowadays Neo-Calvinists talk more about Luther than Lutherans do. I think they actually do think he’s Reformed and “one of them.”

    I have to admit, I haven’t yet read Young Goodman Brown (somehow). But yes, you definitely should visit Salem in October! It’s a blast – lots more to see/do than just witches and Halloween too. And LOTS of costumes to see.

    I’m not really into lurid either. I’ve only ever enjoyed one thing in the horror genre and that was a video game – horror movies usually either gross me out or annoy me. I read Frankenstein in high school and I seem to recall it was interesting, but that’s the original book and not any of the various (essentially unrelated) Halloween-ish remakes. (There’s no character in the original book named Igor. Where did he come from, anyway?)


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    Irascimini?

    Eagle,

        Hello,

           I am glad you are feeling better. You have been in my prayers.  I take no offense at your thought provoking  response. I also feel no need to subscribe to the defense of  MBC’s core values, as they are balanced, orderly, and spiritually focused. I have heard of the many that have come to know Christ, Jesus through the kind and thoughtful believers that fellowship at their central Rt. 7 campus. I also feel no need to pronounce a pejorative word concerning you present state of acute agnosticism. Your multifaceted journey has left you the sad discomfort of a few noticeable scars. I am sure they still bring you much pain. I certainly do not wish to add to them.  JoshM once told me, if I was looking for the perfect church, to be sure not to join it once found, for I would ruin it. (as no man nor ministry, is perfect) JohnE impressed  me a few years back with the idea that his effort was worth the criticism, if he was able to wake up a few men out of their armchair complacency to see the every day value of walking with a God who is close, up front, and above all, personal. LonS has for many years changed the Washington area’s spiritual landscape with a faithful message of Christ, Jesus. He has my sincerest thanks, the heavens still rejoicing over one sinner who finds repentance.

        I will light a candle for you, with my morning prayers, the Lord being ever faithful to his word. Wait for it. May you find his peace.

    ὀργίζεσθε καὶ μὴ ἁμαρτάνετε 

    Blessings!

    IronClad


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    Ironclad – I lived in NoVA for 21 years and, back in the day (before Eagle’s time at McLean Bible), I knew of some very – to my mind – questionable practices and doctrines there.

    That’s not to say that everyone associated with the church is off the wall, only that the place has been controversial since the early-mid 1980s.

    Which might be an indication that something was wrong to begin with… but I’ve been out of D.c. for a long time, and thus, out of the loop.


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    Hester – re. Luther being “one of them,” little do they know! 😉

    It’s kinda like the way a lot of them read all kinds of things into the Nicene Creed that simply aren’t there and were never meant to be.

    Just for you, a link to the full text of “Young Goodman Brown.”


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    I feel uncomfortable with Halloween, but for a very different reason. It is not a traditional Australian holiday — never existed here when I was a kid, and even when my kids were growing up I’d never come across it. But just in the last few years it’s started to appear round here — last night was the first time in my life I’ve ever had trick or treaters knock on our door. Thankfully I always have sweets in the house, so I found them something — I want to be a polite neighbour, but it leaves me feeling disturbed because it’s something that’s obviously being fostered by commercial interests. It has no roots here — and when you consider that we’re having it in the middle of Spring, it’s even odder.

    or maybe I’m just a curmudgeon ..


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    Lynn T wrote

    but it leaves me feeling disturbed because it’s something that’s obviously being fostered by commercial interests.

    That’s *very* true here as well. There’s been an explosion in Halloween-related merchandise since the early 90s – greeting cards, outdoor decorations, seasonal promotions by all kinds of companies – and people buy into it big-time.

    I think most folks who buy this stuff are throwing their money away, but the greeting card companies, makers of decorations, etc. are laughing all the way to the proverbial bank.


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    Halloween was always a traditional thing over here in the UK, but it’s noticeable that the North American custom of trick or treat has only appeared in the last 10 years or so (from my own observation). Having said that, I don’t think it has got any more commercial, although obviously supermarkets and fancy-dress shops see it as an opportunity. We haven’t seen greeting cards yet anyway!


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    PS hail has just been coming down fast into my garden while there was blue sky over the other side of town – crazy climate? Hope you are all OK in the eastern states. Blessings.


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    Hi Eagle, re your “Horror House” (quite satirical!), I don’t think the problem for most of us is Richard Dawkins teaching biology – when he’s just talking that he seems OK. It’s when he lurches into religion that the red mist comes over his eyes.

    I also appreciate what you say re Piper and cancer. If a believer wants to believe that their cancer is a gift from God, the sentiment at least is admirable. However for someone to tell a cancer sufferer the same is rather hair-raising to say the least.


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    Numo

    I had a crush on him as well. The gauntness only added to the mysteriousness of his tortured soul (teen girl speaking…)


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    Lynne T

    It is easier to buy a bit of candy for the revelers (In the US- it probably costs about $10) than buy all the stuff associated with Christmas. It is all commercial-even Easter.


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    Lucifer. He is not red with horns and pitchfork holding a glass of poison. He is deceptive. He is alluring. He asks makes very subtle suggestions such as “surely God did not say….” He makes very tempting offers: If you do this….I will give you that…. — Anon1

    Here is a My Little Pony fanfic on just that subject (temptation and the seduction of evil), using the main character and opening-episode villain from the current show:

    And the Temptress Came Unto Her


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    @ Dee:

    Around here the commercialization of Easter is starting to look a lot like a pastel version of Halloween. Easter “baskets” that look like trick-or-treating buckets, pink skulls, etc. LOTS of pink skulls. Don’t ask me why. I still can’t figure it out. Maybe because both holidays involve candy…?


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    Don’t tell the fundamentalists and Calvinistas, but the Puritans were none too fond of Christmas either. — Lee

    Too ROMISH.

    Fendrel, this isn’t the place to try to convert people to atheism. — Nicholas

    Just Compulsive WITNESS WITNESS WITNESSING for Brights, that’s all. At least he isn’t passing out tracts or hollering through a bullhorn on a street corner.

    Hester – my *favorite* H’ween thing is to recommend that people read Nathaniel Hawthorne’s story “Young Goodman Brown.” Talk about church-related horror! — Numo

    Not just Church-related Horror, but an excursion into Conspiracy Paranoia with similar punch line to Bob Dylan’s “Talking John Birch Society Blues”. (Because the theoretical end state of Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory is EVERYBODY in the cosmos except for the Conspiracy Theorist is part of The Conspiracy.)

    What’s even funnier than how paranoid some Christians get about Halloween are all the Christian alternatives that are NOT THE SAME AS HALLOWEEN!!!! Like the somewhat ambiguous phenomenon of the “harvest party,” where all the kids dress up and go to each classroom and get candy (which is NOT trick-or-treating!). And sorry to be blunt, but hell houses are just stupid. Good point above that they only focus on “showy” sins and not the insidious ones. — Hester

    Tip: When you can describe something as “Just like Fill-in-the-Blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”, it’s NOT a good sign.

    As for “showy” sins — you mean SEXUAL sins, especially THOSE OTHERS’ sexual sins?


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    Hester

    Have you noticed that one can now get red and green candy corns at Christmas and pink nad light blue candy corns at Easter? The same goes for Peeps-those marshamallow candies I also occ eat at Easter.

     


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    It’s THAT time of the year for Hell Houses (“Just like Haunted House, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”), Trunk-or-treat (“Just like Trick-or-Treat, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”), and Christian Harvest Fall Festivals/Reformation Day (“Just like Halloween, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”). If you’re tired of the Christian Culture War Mobilization over Halloween (which this year seems to be pre-empted by Culture War Mobilization over the election), here’s an alternative from the list’s 57-year-old Brony:

    The story of Nightmare Night — the My Little Pony world’s equivalent of Halloween.

    (and what happened immediately afterwards that night outside Ponyville)

    Full episode the above clips were taken from

    And from the massive amount of creative output from the fans:
    Original Music
    Music video mash-up (Lauren Faust meets Tim
    Burton)

    And an online anthology of Pony Horror Stories (in order — Werewolf, Vampire, Kaiju, Ghostbusters, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and Lovecraftia)
    And another Lauren Faust/Tim Burton mash-up, this one a novelette instead of a music video

    And if you’re so Truly Reformed you’re only into Reformation Day, there’s a Pony for that, too!

    Enjoy!


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    HUG, Thanks for the link. Exactly!


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    @ HUG:

    Reformation ponies…?!?!?!?!??!

    My world/mind is expanded daily.


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    MBC: Facing a formidable brick road?

    Numo,

        Hello,

           It has been said that Mclean Bible Church is, by every worldly standard of success, is an immense and glorious triumph of a church. That what MBC does, people want. It is big, prosperous, and diverse, and offers a cornucopia of ministries and services that fully meets the perceived needs of those who attend it’s many worships and groups and studies. 

    If you’re looking for best practices for building a successful faith organization, be advised, you’ve come to the right place.They’ve got a tried and tested business model. Afflicted with church revitalization maylase? Not on your life.Thriving and growing. you bet!

    As for the route seven central building complex, it is unquestionably of a utilitarian design being a modified structure under several occupants over the years, practical and immediately useful. Does it have a church feel? Certainly the plethora of flat screen monitors strategically seeded throughout the complex give general continuity. Even those tired feet in the bathroom lounge are not left out.

    Considering a  visit to this “great golden Jesus behemoth”? 

    First of all, McLean Bible Church seems on a first encounter, to give the appearance of community in name only. Is it simply too vast to serve that purpose, you ask? An overwhelming experience? On any given Sunday, while in attendance, you are as acquainted with the individuals around you as you would be, say, at the local Multiplex theaters, or as you wind your way through the crowded Tysons 1 mall.  While in observance, the behavior of most was predictable in such a large setting, as there were little clusters, those who knew one another, but a  sense of connectedness between the clusters was alien. Typical of this type of environment, people who knew one another tended to bunch together. It is a fast pace environment, where the individual tends to submerge in a sea of the moving masses. Is it an easy place to disappear, to be both nameless and faceless? Possibly. But isn’t this, quite frankly, the challenge in any megachurch? Certainly MBC’s leadership knows this, as seen by their relentlessly pitch for connectedness; i.e. for small groups, various diverse study groups, and a plethora ministries to help people connect to a sub-community within the church. But, to be sure, it is easy, oh so easy, to move through the church like shadow mist. But is this not, quite frankly, the challenge in any megachurch?

    Does this environment provide little opportunity for transforming relationships in the broader life of the church, you ask? Does this environment runs the strong risk of being “diverse” in the way a high school cafeteria is diverse. Or, again, as a mall is diverse? Large, diverse, and impersonal? How do you interact meaningfully with people who are different from you, or don’t share your particular interests? That is an age old question, and MBC is certainly a diverse lot! Then there is the issue that this is a church that while diverse in attendance, is run entirely by men. That perhaps is not going to endear it to some of the ladies here at Wartburg. Yet they don’t seem to rub it in. 

     Connect & Plug in!

    This ministry is intentionally structured around appealing to particular demographic categories or areas of affinity. Find yourself following a formidable brick road? Well, a map and a wall of information packets, an information desk, a welcome center, should serve as an able deterrent to anonymity and that hollow sense of feeling lost in the vastness, unless of course your not willing to take the plung. In that case just welcome your self to a cup of joe, and a tasty pastry, there’s a bookstore and a full cafeteria for your connivence.  

    Ultimately, does it felt too conformed to the world? In skillfully using the tools of the marketplace, It gives ever appearance it has wildly succeeded according to the terms of the marketplace. But…as the early church learned when it conformed itself to the power of the state and reaped worldly prosperity…sometimes that comes with a cost.

    Say what you will about the “WalMart aura of that Route Seven traffic monstrosity”, the “incessant commercialism” and the “perpetual self-promotion” by Lon Solomon- but I have it on reliable sources that this former recreational Pharmacist is not selling absolution.

    Message? What message? Oh! I heard that Saturday on the Internet. Pass the salt!

    Blessings!

    IronClad


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    Ironclad – No offense, but I am not wanting to get into a rundown on specifics. There are too many toxic churches out there, and too little time to deal with them all, no?


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    I don’t think the problem for most of us is Richard Dawkins teaching biology – when he’s just talking that he seems OK. It’s when he lurches into religion that the red mist comes over his eyes. — Kolya

    And he starts foaming at the mouth and HOLLERING like a Calvinista Megachurch Preacher. Dawkins is just as Fundamentalist as any IFB, just in the opposite direction. Funhouse mirror reflections of the Other, just like Ayn Rand and Josef Stalin.


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    Dear All

    Regarding “saints’ days” (of which Halloween is one),Luther wrote “Would to God that in Christendom there were no holidays except Sundays…..But these days we are plagued with many holy days, to the destruction of souls, bodies, and goods”(Treatise on Good Works, published 1520).

    And about those who see no harm in such things he says “They want to impute to Christendom the damage wrought by their own negligence….The question here is: What is or is not God’s word? What is not God’s word does not make Christendom” (On Translating: An Open Letter,published 1530)

    Regards
    Gavin


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    No joy?

    Numo,

        Hello,

    “questionable practices and doctrines there”?

    Where there is smoke….?

    Careful with the matches?

    Blessings!

    IronClad

    P.S. Glad you weathered the Frankinstorm OK.


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    Last night, for the very first time, I took my 3 youngest kids trick-or-treating. They came up with their own costumes in 10 minutes. I texted my 25-yr old and told her and she immediately phoned me saying: “who has my mother’s phone and where is she?” LOL

    I am so tired of having “Christians” tell me what I should and should not be doing. I am questioning everything the homeschool movement and conservative Christian people have taught me. I blogged about it. I wonder how many blog readers I will lose after fessing up – lol. I don’t care anymore. I’m so tired of outward appearances.


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    MBC: Without a vision, the people lavish in peril?

    Eagle,

        Hello,

           The vision of McLean Bible Church is to make an impact on secular Washington with the message of Jesus Christ. 

    As you know, the Metropolitan Washington area is a unique place. With over six million people, it is one of the most powerful, educated, and diverse cities in the world. It is also one of the most secularized. Understanding that, MBC believes that God has assigned a unique role to group of believers, which is to “to impact secular Washington with the message of Jesus Christ.” This vision has guided every element of their ministry for over a decade. 

    In Romans 1:16, Paul says, “I am not ashamed of the message of Jesus Christ, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes.” 

    At McLean Bible Church, they believe that a relationship with Jesus Christ is the only thing that can transform a person’s life. 

    How about you?

    Their church is unashamedly dedicated to presenting this message, so that every person in the Washington area is given a chance to understand it and believe.

    Blessings!

    IronClad


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    Gavin

    Yep-I knew someone would accuse me of  ungodly behavior. I only wish such thoughtfulness was applied to the child sex abuse scandals.


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    Nicholas,

    It wasn’t “trying to convert”, it was more just making a point that belief in the supernatural without evidence is equally absurd whether you believe in goblins, unicorns, Santa, God or Jesus…

    I would actually prefer that no one change their mind based on something I say, not that there is much risk of that, but rather because they re-examine their own basis for belief and decide for themselves that it is insufficient. I like to think I am prodding others to think for themselves and not that I am evangelizing or trying to convert based on what I say alone.

    Hope that helps


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    Julie Anne

    Get any Baby Ruth bars?


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    No, unfortunately not, Dee, but my kids were very pleased with their loot – no cheapo candy here! 🙂


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    Wouldn’t the hell houses be more appropriate if they featured Pharisees being cast into the sea with millstones tied to their necks?


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    Dr Fundy

    Your name cracks me up and so did your comment. But, we wouldn’t want to implicate any of our beloved leaders now, would we?


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    I hear ya Fendrel about empirical evidence vs. belief in the supernatural without evidence, but what can I say? I’m still as incorrigible as Judy Garland singing “Somewhere Over the Rainbow”.


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    Muff…and sadly there will be no ruby slippers at the end for you. 🙁


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    Dear Dee

    Baahózhó Doo Hashkał Bá Haz’á̜.

    Try as I might I can’t see that anyone accused you of anything anywhere. Maybe you mistook Luther for a Calvinists?

    Regards
    Gavin


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    Sorry I meant Calvinista


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    Dear Dee
    And now another view of Salem

    http://www.strecorsoc.org/gummere/ch01.html

    A year or two before, the Puritans at Salem had turned upon their own people the persecutions they had inflicted upon the Quakers; and even the excesses of those Quakers whose religious excitement had led them over the borders of sanity, do not furnish a parallel to those of the Salem people themselves. But a clear line of demarcation must be drawn between the Puritans of Salem and all others. In the Old Colony there were but two cases tried, witnesses cross-examined, the testimony scanned and charges found “not proved.” In this respect they are nearly as clear as Pennsylvania, and the deeds of Salem must not be charged to the entire community. In 1669 there was much tendency to suicide in the neighborhood, due to the hardness of the Calvinistic doctrine, preceding the Salem outburst. It is not true, as has been recently asserted, that suicide is an evidence of culture. The Dutch in Manhattan were free from witchcraft persecutions when the Quakers first went there, and the sensible Hollanders laughed at the credulity. This was also the attitude of the Pilgrims at Plymouth. The blight of 1665 that extinguished all hope of wealth from the growth of wheat in Massachusetts, was attributed by the common people, not to witchcraft, but to the vengeance of God for the execution of the Quaker martyrs. These Quakers, however, were victims of Boston, not Plymouth, and the accusations of witchcraft were made by the inhabitants of the former town.

    It was impossible in a community of the intelligence of New England for any witchcraft creed long to survive. Many more persons were executed in a single county in England than was the case in the whole of America. English laws influenced all the executions in New England, where broader and generally superior standards of living, and the application of higher moral aims, made such lapses as that of the witchcraft persecutions in Salem the more conspicuous. Professor G. L. Kittredge, in the Proceedings of the American Antiquarian Society (Vol. XVIII), ably and successfully defends the Puritan forefathers at Salem for sharing in the errors of their time, proving that their exceptional quality lay in the virtue of a prompt acknowledgment by judge and jury of their mistaken course, rather than in the crime of condemning twenty-eight persons to death for a cause, which, in England and on the continent of Europe, was responsible for the death of thousands

    Regards
    Gavin


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    @ Gavin:

    1. You’ve taken a quote from a letter about Bible translation and made it sound as if Luther was talking about holidays when he said that.

    2. Halloween (the modern secular holiday Dee is referencing in the article) has nothing to do with saints anymore. It has much more to do with zombies, pumpkins and candy. Yes, it just so happens to coincide with the day before All Saints’ Day. (BTW, just for everyone’s general info, that’s different from All Souls’ Day in the Catholic church, which is 11/2.) But it’s a big stretch to claim that Halloween as currently practiced is a “saint’s day.” Your objection would apply much more to All Saints’ Day. Are you against All Saints’ Day?

    (Also, since you quoted Luther – I have never ever even heard of a Lutheran church that did not observe All Saints’ Day. So if he was against it, he apparently failed to get the message across to his theological descendants – though personally I think it highly unlikely he was against All Saints’ Day. He was probably referring to the proliferation of saints’ days that frequently stopped work in the Middle Ages because they were “holy days.” Just take a look at a Catholic liturgical calendar. There are a GAZILLION saints’ days – thus Luther’s phrase “many holy days.”)

    3. “What is or is not God’s word? What is not God’s word does not make Christendom.”

    Okay, I can’t help myself. You actually used this quote in a post in which you did not quote a single word of Scripture – only Luther? Teeheehee.


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    Gavin

    But, as a child steeped in the history of Salem, I know there were other atrocities. Remember, i spent my childhood playing in the museums which had free admission for kids in the Salem school system.(I repent for the hard time I gave the guards who were convinced we would crash through the displays at any minute.) There were those who used the trials as a land grab and so built their fortunes on those who they had condemned as witches and who languished in the jails. As far as I can tell, there was not a wholesale return of these ill gotten gains, perhaps showing that their repentance stopped at their pocketbook.

    I do not share your sentiments that the Puritans were a partcularly good group of people.They share characteristics with those of today of who exhibit a  severe view of grace and an interest in obatining wealth on the backs of those they deem lesser mortals than they are.

    I know the House of the Seven Gables very well. Bet I could conduct a tour there. Nathaniel Hawthorne, who was far more closely connected to the Puritan history than we are today, and far less likely to glorify them as heroes, gave us some insights into their history.

    ” Considered serious and solitary by nature, Hawthorne used these character traits to clearly portray his feelings toward Puritanism.Hawthorne found himself haunted as well as intrigued by the history of his hometown of Salem, Massachusetts. Surrounded by the town’s past, he struggled to rectify in his mind the incongruence of Puritan practice. Further adding to the complexity of his situation was the reality of his Puritan ancestry. Not only was he the descendent of Puritan immigrants, but had a great-great grandfather who served as a judge for the Salem witch trials (Pennell 2; Bloom 11). Perhaps a feeling of personal responsibility and guilt led Hawthorne to select Puritanism as a theme for so many of his works. Exposing Puritan transgressions and forcing the reader to acknowledge the wrongdoings of the past gave Hawthorne an outlet for the misplaced blame he laid on himself. His first person fictional introduction to The Scarlet Letter (entitled The Custom House) divulges his sense of duty toward exposing the cruelties of the Puritan era.”
    http://voices.yahoo.com/the-significance-puritanism-nathaniel-hawthornes-129270.html

    The Puritans showed just as much hypocrisy as the church of today.My point is not that they were through and through evil, only that they were not terribly different than us and showed superstition not carefully grounded in the faith not unlike today. I think of the men who would patrol the lengthy church services with sticks that had hard knobs on the end. Any child who did not sit perfectly still or a man, exhausted from his difficult labor, who fell asleep, got bopped on the head. 

    I know I am a lone voice speaking against the currently untouchable class of the Puritans who lag behind the glorification of Calvin only by a millimeter. But, I am a child of Salem and not unaware of the history. 


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    Hester

    Awesome, appluase worthy comment at 4:57 PM.


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    Gavin

    You are one slippery dude!


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    Fendrel

    So you say. However, just as we were given hunger, along with the food to satisfy it perhpas we have been given a God hunger because there is more. 


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    Muff

    I sing the rather heartrending version by Izzy.
     Link
    I believe there is an “over the rainbow.”


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    @ Dee:

    “Any child who did not sit perfectly still or a man, exhausted from his difficult labor, who fell asleep, got bopped on the head.”

    I’m pretty sure G. I. Williamson’s commentary on the Westminster Shorter Catechism says that not paying adequate attention in church is a form of taking the name of the Lord in vain.


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    @ Dee:

    “But, as a child steeped in the history of Salem, I know there were other atrocities.”

    Like the de facto execution of Giles Corey? – who hadn’t been convicted of anything at all. That and the interesting point that, to my knowledge, the only known uses of folk magic (“witchcraft”) were by, or at least in the households of, the accusers.


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    “I’m pretty sure G. I. Williamson’s commentary on the Westminster Shorter Catechism says that not paying adequate attention in church is a form of taking the name of the Lord in vain.”

    Someone please explain to me how this does not sound like Pharisees keeping to the letter of the law. Not to mention that paying attention in church (to a preacher) is not the same as taking the name of the Lord in vain.


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    ironclad – just curious: are you a member of McLean Bible?

    I was in a number of bad churches in D.c. – only after getting badly burned can I see that.

    and nope, I sure as hell wasn’t the one playing with matches!!! o.O


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    Dear Hester
    1 If you read the whole treatise you will see that is exactly what Luther was talking about notwithstanding the fact that the main subject was translation.
    2 Like all of our times our festivals are rooted in history and yes since all believers are saints I don’t celebrate all saints day. (Too much self adoration!)
    3 I quoted Luther to explain Luther.

    Dear Dee
    My denomination did not cover itself in glory either in its early days. It was common practice to chain “sinners” to the gateposts at the entrance to the churchyard(see Protestantism in Early Modern Scotland).
    Which takes me back to the first point I made in Wartburg, none of us is without sin and we should hang back on the judgment of others.
    Regards
    Gavin
    Slippery? Me? Surely some mistake!


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    Sail On Sailor, Sail On,  “…Sailor!”

    Empirical Evidence vs. Belief In The Supernatural Without Evidence?

    HowDee YaAll,

    Muff: “what can I say? I’m still as incorrigible as Judy Garland singing ‘Somewhere Over “the Rainbow”‘.”

    Fendrel: “Sadly there will be no ruby slippers at the end for you.”

    hmmm…

    “Here is my journey’s end, here is my butt; And very sea-mark of my utmost sail”? WmS

    (grin)

    It is not in the stars to hold our destiny, nor in ourselves, but Christ alone, who holds both the stars and the believer’s life in his very hands, stir my heart and blow divine winds, blow, gently,  …heavenward!

    hum,  hum,hum…

    …♪♫♪ I sailed an ocean, unsettled ocean,
    Through restful waters and deep commotion,
    Often frightened, unenlightened,
    Sail on, sail on sailor!

    …♪♫♪ I wrest the waters, fight Neptune’s waters,
    Sail through the sorrows of life’s marauders,
    Unrepenting, often empty,
    Sail on, sail on sailor!

    …♪♫♪ Seldom stumble, never crumble
    Try to tumble, life’s a rumble
    Feel the stinging I’ve been given
    Never ending, unrelenting
    Heartbreak searing, always fearing
    Never caring, persevering
    Sail on, sail on, sailor!

    …♪♫♪ I work the seaways, the gale-swept seaways,
    Past shipwrecked daughters of wicked waters,
    Uninspired, drenched and tired,
    Wail on, wail on, sailor

    …♪♫♪ Always needing, even bleeding,
    Never feeding all my feelings,
    Damn the thunder, must I blunder?
    There’s no wonder all I’m under,
    Stop the crying and the lying,
    And the sighing and my dying,

    …♪♫♪ Sail on, sail on sailor,
    Sail on, sail on sailor,
    …♪♫♪ Sail on, sail on sailor! *

        “If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable.” WmS

    (sadface)

    S“㋡”py
    ___
    *lyrics “Sail on Sailor” (c) Brian Wilson, with Tandyn Almer, Jack Rieley, and Ray Kennedy. (lyrics reflect parody adaptation, disclaimer: U.S. Title 17 infringement unintended.)


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    Halloween’s pagan roots probably are a little closer to the surface over here in Europe. (Oddly enough, it’s much bigger among the weans here in Scotland than it was in England where I grew up – don’t remember any of us even noticing it, to be honest.)

    But hey; pagan shmagan. Most, if not all, of the traditional “christian” festivals emerged from a syncretistic blend of christian trappings and Roman paganism anyway. Just like reformed theology is a syncretism of christian soteriology and classical Greek scholasticism.

    I love the comment from the RHE thread about post-reformation theologians turning Paul into Moses – puts it really well. On top of turning Paul into Moses, they’ve repaired the veil of the temple, exorcised the Holy Spirit and packed God off back to the top of a holy mountain somewhere.


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    Just take a look at a Catholic liturgical calendar. There are a GAZILLION saints’ days – thus Luther’s phrase “many holy days.” — Hester

    After 2000 years of accretion, EVERY day is a Saint’s Day for SOME Saint. Often multiple ones — how many officially canonized saints are there? And there are only 365 available days in a year (366 on leap years).


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    Fendrel;

    Every time I read your handle, I think of that (Tom Baker) Doctor Who two-parter.


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    @ Gavin:

    Thanks for answering the question about All Saints’ Day…though I see you have not addressed my point about modern Halloween being completely secular and having nothing to do with saints’ days anymore. : )


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    Gavin

    “Which takes me back to the first point I made in Wartburg, none of us is without sin and we should hang back on the judgment of others.” Oh, I beg to differ. We are to judge one another’s actions. The judgement we are warned against has to do with salvation and I never judge that. It is above my paygrade. We are given many, many lists of things that are wrong-greed, being unkind to others, lack of love, etc. We can definitively say that these things are wrong.

    As we regard one another and our forefathers, we are to give a full testimony and stop pretending that some are just a bit better than other. We are all screwups. I prefer to look to Jesus as an example of perfection and learn from the mistakes of mere mortals like the Puritans.


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    Needles & pushpins: The long and winding road?

    Numo,

        Hello,

           Not at the present. Was there to see friends about two weeks ago. The long and winding road, perhaps?Their breakfast was particularly good! Do you remember LonS in his intern days at BarcroftB with ButchH? Brings back memories.

    Consider: Is the Lord using the simple things to confound the wise?

    (You did not say how you are after the Storm?)

    Blessings!

    IronClad


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    @ Gavin:

    “If you read the whole treatise you will see that is exactly what Luther was talking about notwithstanding the fact that the main subject was translation.”

    I have located and read the open letter and yes, it is indeed clear in context what Luther is talking about. He says it himself in introducing the second section: “On the other question, as to whether the departed saints intercede for us.” Luther is talking about praying to/worshipping saints. This is hardly the same as thanking God for the saints around you and who have gone before you (which is all I’ve ever seen at a Protestant All Saints’ Day service), and in any case has absolutely nothing to do with modern secular Halloween celebrations. For Luther’s words here to have any relevance at all to this discussion (and even then minimal relevance at best), you must first prove that modern secular Halloween is a “saint’s day.”

    (Note also: All Saints’ Day is November 1st – always has been. All Hallows’ Eve/Halloween is October 31st – always has been. You maintain that All Saints’ Day is a “saint’s day.” But under your own premise, then, November 1st would then be the “saint’s day,” NOT October 31st. Ergo, any celebrations, religious or not, on October 31st are not “saint’s day” celebrations. Eves of holidays and the holiday itself are not interchangeable. Case in point: it doesn’t become 2013 on December 31st just because the word “New Year’s” appears in the name “New Year’s Eve.”)

  102. Pingback: Halloween | Created to be His


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    @ HUG
    Since there are so many more (canonised) saints than there are days in the year, who is the poor saint who got relegated to Feb 29, and only gets celebrated 1/4 as often? Think I feel sorry for the semi-demi-saint


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    “…there’s no place like home…there’s no place like home…”


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    Dee- did Tulip behave herself on Halloween or was she sent to time out?

    I might have to take a yearly drive-by the Fearrington. It was awesome! Plus we need to find where they keep the goats.


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    Gavin & Hester – Lutherans and Anglicans *love* to sing Ralph Vaughan Williams’ hymn For all the saints on All Saints’ Day (or All Saints’ Sunday, as it’s often celebrated on that day of the week in Lutheran churches.

    Here are the 1st three verses – note how the “communion of saints” is mentioned here (from the Apostles – and other – creeds) –

    For all the saints who from their labors rest,
    who to the world by faith their Lord confessed,
    your name, O Jesus, be forever blest.
    Alleluia, alleluia!

    You were their rock, their fortress, and their might;
    you, Lord, their captain in the well-fought fight,
    and in the darkness drear, their one true light.
    Alleluia, alleluia!

    May all your soldiers, faithful, true, and bold,
    fight as the saints who nobly fought of old,
    and win with them the victor’s crown of gold.
    Alleluia, alleluia!

    O blest communion, fellowship divine!
    We feebly struggle, they in glory shine;
    yet all are one within your great design.
    Alleluia, alleluia! …

    I really love this one, musically and otherwise, though the tune is not the easiest to pick up, and has some tough intervals and leaps for voice (possibly for organ as well – Hester & Kolya, what do you think?)

    Gavin, both Luther and Calvin thought that devotions to Mary were good things. We all tend to cherrypick the Refomers when we don’t like their ideas, ans this is no exception.

    btw, as a cradle Lutheran, I’ve gotta affirm what Hester’s saying about All Saints’ Day vs. daysw commemorating individual saints vs. (didn’t expect a 3d one, did you? ;)) various holy days and feasts that are still part of the Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran church calendars. (The Orthodox have all of that, too, but the saints are not – foe the most part – known in the West, and some of the holy days and feast are different as well.)

    You could check an online lectionary or church calendar to see what Hester and I are referring to…


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    Lynne T – I bet 2/29 belongs to some hapless monk who came up with calculations re. needing to switch from the Julian to Gregorian calendar… 😉


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    Did someone say “goats”? I would *love to have a couple of pygmy goats – and a pet sheep or two – to go along with my spoiled indoor bunny! (the goats and sheep would live outside, though… :))


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    IronClad – thanks so much for asking! All is OK – we definitely got off a *lot* easier than was predicted… I could just sit and cry for all those who weren’t so fortunate, in NJ especially.


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    Nick – re. Halloween’s pagan roots, I think it’s yes *and* no. Keep in mind that tons of Scots, Irish, and what we usually refer to as Scots-Irish emigrated to the US and Canada, though at different times – and often for different reasons.

    Case in point: how St. Patrick’s Day is a church thing in Eire, but in the US, it’s an excuse to drink lots of beer with green food coloring in it, don leprechaun outfits (complete with sequined derbies), take part in raucous parades and proclaim that everyone “has a little bit of Irish in them” – particularly true in cities with large Irish populaions, like NYC, Boston, Chicago et. al. (Never mind that most of the big breweries here in the US were started by German immigrants and are, in some case, still run by their descendants or other people of German descent.)


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    Dear Dee
    I agree that we have to exercise judgment/discrimination in our every day lives and I also agree that we shouldn’t put people on pedestals or pretend that we are better than we actually are. The problem lies in judging a whole group – Puritans, Lutherans Catholics – as being wrong because of what some may or may not have done, particularly as we are applying our own contemporary values to distant times. So I don’t think our views are all that different. Even if they are we can agree to disagree. That’s what a discussion does.

    Dear Hester
    I don’t agree that Halloween is purely secular. It is pagan, like Christmas, and we simply dress it up in modern clothes to make it acceptable.

    I recognise that all Christians are saints whose lives can be remembered with gratitude but I don’t think it is helpful to set aside special days to do so as it can lead to hero worship (something lovers of Puritan writings seem to be accused of) I don’t accept canonisation of saints. I lived in Poland for a number of years and saw first hand inordinate devotion to saints days and name days.

    Dear Nick
    I agree that there was a fusion of Greek philosophical thought with Christian teaching, but I also think that over the centuries the limitations of this fusion were recognised and addressed. I think I’m right in saying that many of the current generation of theologians and church leaders – for example in the Gospel Coalition – are addressing the issue. Similarly I agree there is often a tendency to fall back into a form of legalism which binds people to intolerable burdens.

    Dear Numo
    I like the hymn as well as it celebrates in The Church Militant, the rest of the Church Triumphant.(although it was written by Bishop How of Wakefield).This hymnal used a new setting by Ralph Vaughan Williams which he called Sine Nomine (literally, “without name”) in reference to its use on the Feast of All Saints, November 1, or the first Sunday in November, All Saints Sunday in the Lutheran Church. It has been described as “one of the finest hymn tunes of [the 20th] century (according to Wikipedia).

    With regard to Mary, it is one thing to recognise her importance in the story of salvation, but Calvin was quite withering in his comments on the Veneration of the Saints Bk3.20.22. and he included Mary in his comments. He also quoted early church fathers in support of his view.

    Best wishes
    Gavin


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    @ Gavin:

    “I don’t agree that Halloween is purely secular. It is pagan, like Christmas, and we simply dress it up in modern clothes to make it acceptable.”

    Thank you for stating your position so clearly. I take it you don’t celebrate Christmas either, then?

    (BTW, saying Halloween is pagan is different than saying it is a “saint’s day”…)


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    @ Numo:

    Learning that hymn for Sunday at the Episcopal church! : ) Though it’s a little hard to find a practice organ when none of the churches around you have electricity after a hurricane.


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    Dear Hester
    Like many pagan festivals the early roman church adapted them to their own purposes so to me there is no substantive difference between the two categories. As for Christmas, what can I say? The Victorian nonsense that is the norm, is, well, nonsense, and is, dare I say it, a form of exploitation of the people.
    Regards
    Gavin
    (It might be appropriate at this point to counter your earlier tee hee hee with a Ho Ho Ho 🙂


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    Dee, you said,

    “So you say. However, just as we were given hunger, along with the food to satisfy it perhaps we have been given a God hunger because there is more.”

    It’s the “perhaps” which is problematic…”perhaps” young girls are enchanted by unicorns so that hunters may more easily capture them, or “perhaps” the earth has only a single moon to symbolize that like mother earth, human mothers should only have a single child (and need to keep it at a distance!).

    You see the word “perhaps” is nothing more that a wish, an adorable, sweet idea, with no evidence to support it…a child’s way of explaining the world around them…certainly nothing for an adult to embrace and allow to wield control in their lives.


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    The Belted Cow

    Tulip has ony needed about 5 time outs since your visit. Before you come, I will find the location of the goats.

    Next time, you must go to SkyTop Orchard. We went a couple days after you left. It was stunning and we picked some apples. Unfortunately, I broke my lo carb diet, first with some lovely chocolates and then with SkyTop’s handmade, not apple cider donuts.Coupld that with the coming trip and Christmas and I am a goner!


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    Gavin

    I would contend that Mary is all but forgotten in the patriarchal movement. She is brought out and dusted off once a year, looking calm, cool and collected after just giving birth in a cave.

    In my opinion, Mary should be studied and thought about far more than she is. But, she is a woman and the powers act as if she is merely a convenient womb. I sometimes feel that the message sent by the benign neglect of Mary by evangelcials is that she is necessary evil and God would have been far better served by having Jesus appear fully formed and taken care of by some men who would be sure that he was not affected by a woman who is “gullible and easily deceived.”

     


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    Hester

    Good comment at 6:50. I was about to go there with Gavin and instead took a different route since you addressed it so well.


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    Gavin

    Luther is the one who drgged a tree into the house and decorated it, knowing full well that he was countering a pagan tradition. We can redeem those things for use in the church. 


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    Fendrel

    It is no more a wish than your hope that all that happens after death is that you rot in the ground and your dustvsomehow joins the stars in another galaxy. You have no more proof of that than you say we have proof of our beliefs. In the end, there was an Uncaused First Cause, no matter which side of the fence you sit. I believe that the hope we have is there because there is reason to hope. 


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    Since there are so many more (canonised) saints than there are days in the year, who is the poor saint who got relegated to Feb 29, and only gets celebrated 1/4 as often? Think I feel sorry for the semi-demi-saint — Lynne T

    That’s what All Saints’ Day is for. Commemorating the forgotten saints, and those who were never formally canonized.

    I would contend that Mary is all but forgotten in the patriarchal movement. She is brought out and dusted off once a year, looking calm, cool and collected after just giving birth in a cave. — Dee

    She’s forgotten because Mary is too Romish.

    Swim the Tiber and go Catholic. The complaint about us Romish Papists is we overemphasize St Mary. (Though if you want to see X-Treme Mary fanboying, you can’t top Ethiopian Coptics.)

    In my opinion, Mary should be studied and thought about far more than she is. But, she is a woman and the powers act as if she is merely a convenient womb. — Dee

    To Patrios, ALL women are merely convenient wombs. Weapons in the Culture War to Restore Pure Christian America and nothing more.


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    Dear Dee
    I’m sorry but the Luther and the Christmas tree story is a complete myth.

    http://www.orlutheran.com/html/chrtree.html

    Never let the facts get in the way of dogma or prejudice.

    As for Mary, what has Abraham and co got to do with it? Or are you taking aim at your puritan loving brethren again?

    Best wishes
    Gavin

    Regards
    Gavin


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    Okay let’s have a frank discussion about Washington, D.C. culture and life. Yes I know what exists here in DC. — Eagle

    “That nest of Vipers over in Washington…”
    — Al Swearingen, Deadwood


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    “The best weapons Christians have is love and grace and they choose not to use it”

    Reading about and from the early Christians affirms this even more for me. BEFORE the doctrinal wars started and Christianity became a political movement with it’s own nation state.


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    Dee,

    isn’t this fun…I missed these discussions….

    It isn’t the same…my belief that when you die, you rot in the ground, doesn’t ADD anything to what I already do know and for which there is evidence (organic material decomposes after death). Your position that there is another, eternal, life which might possibly be lived either in the presence of the Christian God or separated from His presence adds an incredible amount of information for which there is no supporting evidence. Surely you can see that they not even remotely similar positions can’t you?

    Even if we say that we both accept the idea of a first cause (and I actually am not so sure I would accept that premise..but for the time being, let’s go with it), saying that the evidence at hand points to a first cause, and saying that you know what that first cause was, are two very different things.

    I do not need to go beyond the evidence at hand to postulate a first cause scenario, but you need to exceed by leaps and bounds the evidence at hand to insist that it is some type of living, divine being who has existed eternally and who is personally involved in the affairs of this universe and the human race in particular. As you can see…they are very different positions indeed.


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    Gavin

    There are others who might disagree since there are many (google it) who claim that story is true but it might be the same things a George cutting down the apple tree and I will bow to you knowledge on that. To your point, Luther did not like Christmas as a celebration. I read it in two books on Christmas traditions put out by some evangelcial organizations.

    I brought up Mary in response to some comments on the veneration of saints. I believe the evangelcial church has gone to the extreme, once again, and written her out of the story. Good night! She raised God, in a certtain sense, or did He come potty trained?


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    Dee,

    Someone once remarked that Protestants treat Mary like a warm water slide God skidded through on His way into the world.


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    Gavin – your chameleon-like responses are … well, they are what they are.

    You seem so very determined to prove everyone here wrong, no matter what. I’m sorry you feel that this is a bash-fest, because so many of us have been deeply hurt by churches.

    so it seems (to me) that you’re missing a lot of the points being made.

    best regards,
    n.


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    Eagle @ 11:55 AM

    “From my perspective Christianity if it’s going to work is about love, grace and nothing more. If you can’t show love and grace then you can’t live out the faith. And that is why Christianity is ugly, because people focus on doctrine and they do this while being condescending, pretentious, arrogant, self righteous, etc… The best weapons Christians have is love and grace and they choose not to use it. Unless Christians show love and grace they are ultimately irrelevant. ”

    Love this. Eagle, how, as an agnostic, do you have such an accurate perspective (in my opinion) of what Christianity SHOULD be? You seem to “get it” better than so many Christians I know (and I’m not talking about the ones here at TWW :-)).


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    Fendrel – on reading your latest, it strikes me that there is as much belief/faith in what you say as there is in any of Dee’s posts. It’s faith in a different system or set of ideas, but faith nonetheless. (No offense meant at all; just sayin’… :))

    Re. unicorns, iirc, it’s the unicorns who were attracted to the young girls (see Unicorn Tapestry series at the Met in NYC).


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    Gavin –

    “I agree that there was a fusion of Greek philosophical thought with Christian teaching, but I also think that over the centuries the limitations of this fusion were recognised and addressed. I think I’m right in saying that many of the current generation of theologians and church leaders – for example in the Gospel Coalition – are addressing the issue.”

    Really Gavin? From almost everything I have been exposed to for the past 15 or so years from TGC leads me to believe something completely different — it’s called gospel contemplationism. In other words, all you need after salvation is more gospel. Maybe that’s because after salvation you are still totally depraved, full of sin, and not able to do anything good or pleasing to God. Well, I guess if they think like this, then they do still need the gospel message over and over and over. They never view themselves as righteous before God. It is a vicious loop.


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    Numo,

    Is that in regard to my most recent post (12:16)..if so could you comment in more detail, because otherwise we most be on different planets…Mars/Venus maybe maybe 🙂


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    Fendrel – sorry for not explaining more clearly!

    I simply meant that your current belief system requires that you choose to believe it – i.e., it is, in its own way, something that requires faith on your part. (Obvy not in a supreme being, but in a total absence thereof.)

    In your unicorn analogy, you said that unicorns charmed young girls, when, to the best of my recollection, it’s the other way around. Young (virgin) girls were sent out to sit and wait for unicorns to come – they can be (so the folklore goes) charmed and captured by virgins. That’s what you see in the images in the Met’s famed Unicorn tapestries…


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    SW Disc. – re. Spanier, I know… but my guess is that he will be found guilty; also that he will take early retirement.

    I have never liked the guy, for reasons that have little to do with the Sandusky (and related) problems….


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    SW Disc. – are you aware that Spanier was hired by the Feds some months ago? I forget the name of the agency/job description, but it requires a very high security clearance. o.O

    No doubt you can find the info. on pennlive.com or centredaily.com


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    Numo,

    Take a look at 12:16 comment, I’d like to hear your opinion.

    Thanks


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    @ Gavin & Dee:

    There is no denying that pagan festivals/symbols were adapted by the Catholic church. But in all honesty, I really don’t care. God made trees, holly and ivy, not Druids, and the things God created are good and give Him glory, no matter how many pagans use them in their festivals. Therefore a Christian reclaiming these things and using them to give even MORE glory to God (by using them as symbols of the Trinity and the Crucifixion) is not a bad thing.

    This quote from the article I’ll link to below (for everyone’s perusal) pretty much sums up my thoughts, and to me, all “pagan Christmas” arguments to the contrary will never have a prayer of ever surmounting the Biblical fact that God, not the Druids, is the REAL owner of pine trees.

    “And the straw that finally broke the camel’s back–on the issue of whether something’s more-or-less-unknown history still ‘taints’ it, or makes it ‘unclean’–came the day I learned that the English word ‘nice’ came from an Old Latin word ‘nescius”–which meant ‘stupid’. I realized that the ancient meaning of that word–as a linguistic symbol–was in NO WAY ‘smuggled into’ my uses of the modern word ‘nice’. [And the same for many other words, phrases, symbols of no consequence today.] I realized that the origin or some ancient meaning/significance to something MIGHT HAVE BEEN a reason to not use it BACK THEN, but it had NO BEARING on whether I should bless someone’s heart today by telling them ‘nice job’ or ‘what a nice gesture’ or ‘what nice children.'”

    http://christianthinktank.com/treesok.html


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    Hester,

    now just to play devil’s advocate … what about the idea that Christians are supposed to avoid even “the appearance of evil”. While you can justify reclaiming the holidays, isn’t there something to be said for the perception it might create in those not quite so enlightened?


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    @ Gavin:

    Also, just curious – are you Scottish Presbyterian? You mentioned your denomination being connected with early Protestantism in Scotland.


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    Dear Hester

    Commenting on the usage of the word ‘nice’, that great defender of good grammar and proper etymology, Mr Fowler said,” By 1926, it was pronounced “too great a favorite with the ladies, who have charmed out of it all its individuality and converted it into a mere diffuser of vague and mild agreeableness.” ” Quite apt.

    I’m not a great lover of denominations as such but I would describe myself as reformed, evangelical,presbyterian, baptist, occasionally charismatic, who is married to a roman catholic and I also have a lot of time for the Eastern rite, hasidic Judaism and political Islam. I can’t be more specific. I love Gaelic Psalm singing – the music of Heaven – even although I am a Lowlander and don’t speak Gaelic

    Best wishes
    Gavin


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    @ Fendrel:

    In my experience, the only people who spontaneously see “deeper” pagan meanings behind holiday symbols are conservative/fundamentalist Christians… The average Joe simply sees a Christmas tree as a fun holiday tradition that we do because it’s Christmas and hey, it’s fun to decorate. As for modern pagans, the ones I’ve talked to openly acknowledge that “their” meanings are now a distinct cultural minority, and while they do make a few cracks now and again that Christians “stole” their symbols, they certainly don’t believe that Christians are actually worshipping Druid gods by putting up Christmas trees.

    As a further example, someone on my FB last spring made a comment that the word “Easter” was derived from the name of the Babylonian goddess Ishtar, and wondered if Christians should therefore stop using the word “Easter.” Now in all honesty, I think it’s highly unlikely that the average person will drive past a church, see the word “Easter” on the sign, and think, “Oh dear! Those Christians are worshipping Babylonian gods in there!”

    So no, I don’t believe that Christmas trees are generally seen as “the appearance of paganism” (let alone “evil”). I hope that answers your question.


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    @ Gavin:

    Though I do agree that “nice” is an overused and watered-down term…I doubt Mr. Fowler thought those ladies were actually insulting people when they called them “nice.” : )


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    Hester,

    Quite well thank you. I would add though that there is at least one group who would view it that way…Jehovah’s Witnesses which in the US alone based on a 2011 census accounted for roughly 1.2 million people.


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    So What? What is at the ‘core’ of McLean Bible Church?

    Eagle,

        Hello,

           It is my sincerest understanding that LonS and the believers at Mclean Bible Church have for many years changed the Washington area’s spiritual landscape to the positive with a faithful message of Christ, Jesus.  Again, he and the believers at MBC  have my sincerest thanks, the heavens still rejoicing over one sinner who finds repentance. Is it the MBC core ten or is it a possible fault in their execution you find somewhat troubling?

    Again, (for our TWW readers review) let’s take a closer look at MBC’s core values:

    People matter to God and to this group of believers. Luke 15

    The Gospel message transforms people’s lives. 2 Corinthians 5:17

    The goal of this church ministry is to transform people into fully devoted followers of Christ. Matthew 28:18-20, Ephesians 4:11-16

    At MBC, they believe that ministry and evangelism must be carried out in a relevant way. 1 Corinthians 9:22b

    At MBC, they believe that people must be treated gently and respectfully. 1 Peter 3:15

    Thar people need to be connected to a caring community. Acts 4:34-35

    That every Christian has a God-given ministry. Ephesians 4:12

    At MBC, they are encouraged and exhorted that everything they do must be done with excellence. Colossians 3:23-24

    That the believers at MBC church must have an evangelistic impact on our community. Acts 6:7, 1 Thessalonians 1:8

    To accomplish their mission, believers must be willing to step out in visionary faith and take risks for God. Hebrews 11:6

    Again, is it identification or execution, you find most troubling?

    Consider Carefully? You Decide.

    Blessings!

    IronClad


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    As a general note, attempts to purge all traces of paganism from “Christian” society are hardly new. There were some Puritans who even proposed changing the names of the days of the week to eliminate the etymological references to Norse gods.


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    @ Fendrel:

    True about the JWs – though they even reject birthdays as pagan so I suppose you just can’t win with some people. : ) And JWs do definitely qualify as conservative religious folk.


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    Hester,

    Well if we are going to purge all traces of paganism from Christianity could we please start with the resurrection and virgin birth…that would go along way toward improving things.


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    “Atheistic Shock Jock Bashed Wartburg Watch?”

    Cough, Cough, Scoff, Scoff… 

    Fendrel, youze such a scoundrel?!? Purging the resurrection and and the virgin birth from Christianity, you say? What a hoot! (that is so bizarre, so post-modern)

    …my Jesus walked on da water… What is yours doin? In da cellar dig’in holes? Whatcha gonna do we da real storm comes? (Dat foxhole bedder be a deep one, friend!)

    Whatya expect us ta do bend over and grab our ankles?

    (grin)

    hahahahahahahaha

    hum, hum, hum…

    …♪♫♪ “A mighty fortress is our God…”

    hum, hum, hum… hum!

    S“㋡”py


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    Sopwith,

    Never met a dead Christian in a foxhole who didn’t pray.


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    Fendrel – I’ve gotta agree with Hester on “pagan” customs having made their way into all kinds of Western holiday celebrations. I mean, so what?! 😉

    Most people don’t give a hoot – and things that are fun (and, like trees, wreaths, greens and lights) and make a literally dark season less so are, imo, most welcome! (I have SAD, use a light box daily and *still* need the seasonal lift of xmas lights and decorations. It helps a lot, on a purely visual level – and makes things feel a little less cold and dark, somehow.)

    Keep in mind that xtianity developed in urban centers (of the Roman empire) that were nothing if not pluralistic and cosmopolitan – major cities in India today would probably be a reasonably good analogy. And established social customs were what they were. In order for xtianity (or Judaism, for that matter) to be “culturally ‘pure,'” its followers would have had to emulate the Essenes and live apart from the rest of society.

    Even Jesus didn’t do that. (Quite the opposite, as far as we know.) So why people get their knickers in a twist over xtian holidays having been melded with “pagan” ones is beyond me. (So is the so-called War on Xmas, but that’s another story entirely!)

    As for renaming days and months, well… that was done after the French Revolution, and the calendar/name changes didn’t last long. I doubt any but the most die-hard Jacobins liked them.

    Fendrel, per your comment at 12:16, I have already tried to reply to it in my previous comments above. You are (more or less) stumping for a kind of faith, even though it is an absence of all religious belief.

    As for “evidence,” not sure that being unable to prove the existence of something invalidates belief in it, whatever “it” happens to be. Think of the absolute shock people got when they were 1st able to see a whole microscopic world via finely-ground lenses, and the literal revolution in thought that accompanied the development and refinement of the telescope. If nothing else, that put paid to old notions of the “heavens” being an upturned blow of sort, with various “spheres” (Greek idea) and/or holes rent in it as an explanation for stars; planets and stars being determinants of peoples’ destinies (though of course that’s never died off) and much, much more.

    If I use only visual evidence for things, I cannot believe in the reality of sound waves, barometric pressure or electricity. Even though I might use instruments to detect these things, I *still* can’t see them with my eyes, hear them, feel, taste or touch them – though i can see artificial lights, I can feel the effects of barometric pressure (it’s a big factor in many kinds of chronic pain, for example), and I can listen to music using all kinds of speakers, even “hear” via bone conduction.

    Another example: animals can see, hear and smell things that are beyond the range of human senses. Does that make their visual, auditory and olfactory perceptions invalid? I don’t think so… (but I’m a big believer – hah! – in the intelligence and heightened perceptions of many other species, so…)

    OK, I’m rambling – time to call it quits! 🙂


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    RE: Dee on Fri Nov 02,2012 at 09:25 AM,

    Right on Dee! Back when I was a captive, I remember fundamentalist churchmen who’d go out of their way to minimize Mary and the Magnificat in Luke’s Gospel. Butcha’ know what? They weren’t able then and they won’t succeed anytime soon in subtracting one electron from the mystery and magic of her person.


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    “bowl,” not “blow.”

    Oh man, my typing… 😉


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    Numo,

    it’s not about having a visual or auditory component, it’s about test-ability and whether the data we currently have supports it.

    The data that we have, for example, is in harmony with the idea that life ends at death and the body decomposes, it does not “prove” that there is no life after death, but given what we currently know, it is reasonable to assume that this is how things work. If you want to go beyond the data then you must provide some evidence that outweighs the data we currently have. It is not enough to simply say “I want it to be true”.

    I choose to believe that there is no life after death, so you are correct in the sense that it is a belief, but it is belief based on the best information that we currently have, it’s what the data and evidence imply, and it a more rational course of action then jumping to a conclusion which has no supporting evidence, certainly not sufficient evidence to overturn what we currently know.


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    Yep – neither you nor I – nor anyone else – knows for certain (based on empirical evidence) whether there is – or isn’t – life after death.

    You and I can look at the same data and come to different conclusions, based on our beliefs about that data + other things (religious and/or philosophical beliefs, cultural influences, etc.).

    But then, I know atheists who enjoy singing xmas carols… and people of other faiths who do as well. And I don’t mean “Frosty the Snowman” – more like “O Come All ye Faithful,” “Gesu Bambino,” etc.


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    Numo,

    no, no, no … there is no way to come to a different “conclusion” on whether the data supports life after death…it doesn’t and that isn’t a matter of “belief” or “interpretation”.

    That’s like saying that the moon could be revolving clockwise or counter-clockwise around the earth based on my interpretation….that’s just plain lunacy (pardon the pun)…if that’s the case then you might as well throw out all of reality and retreat to an insane asylum because the ability to define anything would be permanently lost!

    All the evidence shows that when things die…that’s the end. There is no evidence or data to examine which shows some form of eternal (how would you measure that anyway?) life…period.

    arrrgh … running to the corner of my room…sitting on the floor…pulling my hair out (the “fact” that I might have hair is open to “interpretation”!)


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    well, science-minded people used to believe in spontaneous generation… 😉

    I am trying to say that we have no data to support the belief in life after death. Data does not equal how people interpret it, per further conclusions (if any).

    And yes, data is data, but in studies it *is* interpreted (depending on the kind of study and the discipline, of course). But given the number of “hard science” people who argue over the meaning of many different kinds of data, I have to conclude that people are making conclusions about what data means… ergo, they are choosing to believe in/interpret data (on whatever) to mean one thing or another.

    Clear now?


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    cf. quarks, “charm” and much more – or Schroedinger’s cat, for that matter!


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    iow, the whole realm of theoretical physics is… equations and ? 😉 (I know I’m drastically oversimplifying this, ’cause theoretical physics isn’t exactly my forte, but hey… ;))


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    Or, precisely put (sort of): when input changes, our perceptions and beliefs end up changing along with the evidence – microscopic life, for ex., or the stars, planets etc. as physical bodies, not all the many things people had believed them to be (including scientists) up ’til the advent of the 1st decent telescope.

    Thus, “but it does move.” (Alas for Galileo… the RC church was anything but kind to him.)


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    Fendrel

    So, if you lived in the 1300s and did not know that there were bacteria because you couldn’t see the little buggers, you would have to reject that such a thing existed until you saw the proof? So, just because you can’t know it, it doesn’t exist?


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    To the microscopes! 😀


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    A fave of mine – that until very recent times, most respectable natural science types believed that birds hibernated in the mud, underwater, all winter long.

    I know that sounds totally crazy, but that *is* what people held to be true, until some folks noticed that birds actually migrate. (How they know where to go + how they navigate is yet another mystery to us, still…)


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    “Ghost Soldiers?”

    Fendrel, 

    HowDee,

    Your so original! Your overwhelmingly less substantial affinity for Christianity is touching. Please try,try, “try” harder.

    ( Yeah o.k. …if your gonna do da chicken dance…you might wanna put da snake down)

     -snicker-

    hahahahahahaha

    S“㋡”py


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    Dee, Numo

    What you need to look at is not whether those beliefs turned out to be correct or incorrect, but rather whether the data and information they possessed at the time made those the most logical conclusions.

    That’s what science does, it keeps gathering information and building a more accurate picture of how nature works…The difference between how science works and faith works is that faith thinks it already has the ultimate answers, science on the other hand, basis what it believes to be true based on the data at hand at the time. Science doesn’t claim to have “truth” only that it has confidence in a particular answer because the lion’s share of the currently available data points to a particular thing or not.

    This is why it is difficult, if not fun, to have discussions with people of faith…they believe they already know the ultimate truth and are unwilling to constrain their “beliefs” based on existing data.

    You may choose to believe that life continues after death, and in the end you may even being right, but the assumption that this is an accurate representation of realty is unwarranted by the data, it belongs solely to the domain of faith and religious conviction and thus, in not based on reason or logic.


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    Fendrel – I know it can be very hard to talk with xtians (and people who believe in other religions as well), because I have a lot of difficulty with this myself – even here at times.

    I’m not at all meaning to be dismissive of your beliefs/ideas – it’s just that (I guess) you and I differ on many matters, not just that of faith in a supreme being(s) of some sort.

    To be honest, I think faith has many paradoxes and difficulties, and that anyone who goes through this life with their shiny new list of beliefs unchanged … well, they ahve not really lived, nor have they had much experience of suffering (their own as well as others).

    Life can be marvelous, but it also very, very hard – and it can be awfully cruel. I think confronting human cruelty is one of *the* single most difficult things in life – including what lies within us. We are all, I think, capable of great good – and great evil as well. (Notice that I’m not using xtian language here; these things are a constant, no matter what a person does or does not believe per religion – or lack thereof).

    I guess that in some ways, i can be described as agnostic… a place I never thought I’d get to, but one which makes sense to me in certain respects (for myself). I think maybe a lot of people are what I might call “functionally agnostic.”

    And in the end, we’re all confronted with death – that of others, and our own. Which is perhaps the most difficult thing of all, because it’s such an unknown territory.

    Who would fardels bear,
    To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
    But that the dread of something after death,
    The undiscovere’d country, from whose bourn
    No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
    And makes us rather bear those ills we have
    Than fly to others that we know not of?

    – Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act III, scene 1 (from Hamlet’s soliloquy)


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    Fendrel – I also think you might be skirting around the problems posed by scientific data’s unavailability… and the clear fact that even scientists believe in something (many “somethings,” I’d guess) even if their faith is *only* in the data they collect and study.

    Even then, making sense of the data requires more than sheer logic.

    But then, I’m not good at hard science – lab reports and all of that – nor at math. My strong suits are music and some of the other arts, and I have difficulty with logic problems, etc. etc. (I know that higher mathematics can be very beautiful in an aesthetic sense, but “lower” math is a struggle for me, so …)


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    Fendrel

    Oh, I think the doctors and scientists of those days thought they knew the answers. They didn’t. Neither do you know exactly what happens after death-just confidence on your interpretation. We all gotta believe in something. You will die soon; so will I. You base your beliefs on what you think will be shown to be true just as I do. Seems like  a draw.


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    Dee,

    my friend (uh oh now you’re in trouble! At least I didn’t use your middle name!), please tell me though that you can see that the class of belief is very different between you and I, that you are extending and going way beyond what the data would indicate about death while my position is to stay very close to home as it were…and continue on the line of reasoning that the current data would indicate is correct.

    I am NOT saying that I am right and you are wrong, only that your belief is NOT in line with the data we currently have while mine follows what the current evidence (or lack thereof) implies…that life does not continue after death.

    I am not trying to make a case for who’s position will ultimately be found out to be true. I am only trying to get an acknowledgement that your beliefs go way beyond what the data implies.


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    Fendrel

    Glad you are back!  Let me see if i understand you. The lack of evidence regarding, let’s say, an after life, means that the only logical conclusion is that there is no after life?


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    Dee,

    Close, I would say that the only rational course of action is to adopt or accept a belief that is in line with the data that you DO have as opposed to adopting a belief system that is either in opposition to the existing data or which is unsupported by data at all.

    It is not rational, in my view, to adopt as a “truth” a proposition which is different from that implied by existing data. What is rational is to accept as a provisional fact whatever the data implies and also to be willing to change or adjust those beliefs as more data comes to light.

    If a child who lived during Jesus’ time pronounced that they believed light sometimes behaved like a particles and at other times like waves…they obviously would have been correct, but since they decided to “believe” that at a time when there was no evidence to support that fact…their “beliefs” were still illogical and not rational…it was a lucky guess..no more. It doesn’t make their supposition rational or logical just because it luckily turned out to be correct.

    Maybe there is life after death, but to believe that it is true without supporting evidence and when all the existing evidence points in the opposite direction is illogical and irrational, regardless of whether it turns out to right or wrong in the end. This is true of life after death, the existence of God, virgin birth, walking on water, etc.


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    Fendrel

    “Maybe there is life after death, but to believe that it is true without supporting evidence and when all the existing evidence points in the opposite direction is illogical and irrational, regardless of whether it turns out to right or wrong in the end.”

    First, to which evidence are you referring when you say “thhe existing evidence points in the opposite direction?”

    And without those who bucked against common “wisdom”  and “evidence” we would not have computers on Mars sending us home data. In the end, I do not mind being thought of as a fool. I am in good company.


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    “God’s Promises: Suitable For Our Able Support?”

    HowDee YaAll,

    We certainly concede that there truly is life after your bad breath, Fendrel. 

    Certainty? 

    You are looking for empirical evidence for the truth of the hereafter? 

    In some fields, quantitative research may begin with a research question (e.g., “Does listening to your own voice Fendrel, heighten the effect upon your ego?”) which is then tested through experimentation in an unsuspecting TWW lab, when it is really quite simple…

    What?

    …tested with a suitable experimentation?

    hmmm…

    We here at Wartburg look no further that the Lord’s very promises. They are yea and amen. (2 Cor.1:20)

     In giving this answer in His person and life, Christ ( e.g. In Him is in His person: through Him, by His agency) puts the emphatic confirmation upon God’s promises, even as in the assembly the people when saying: Amen, Verily. 

    (the “Amen” to be the Amen at the close of our grateful thanksgiving? huh?…your mileage may very) 

    Would you prefer an adult beverage to a cock fight?

    My Ark (Christ) is before your most pernicious and  impertinent reason & logic…

    and ma glass is rais’d, 

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

    S“㋡”py!
    ___
    Notes:
     
    For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us.

    “For all the promises of God in him – All the promises which God has made through him. This is another reason why Paul felt himself bound to maintain a character of the strictest veracity. The reason was, that God always evinced that; and that since none of His promises failed, he felt himself sacredly bound to imitate Him, and to adhere to all His. 

    The promises of God which are made through Christ, relate to the pardon of sin to the penitent; the sanctification of his people: support in temptation and trial; guidance in perplexity; peace in death, and eternal glory beyond the grave. All of these are made through a Redeemer, and none of these shall fail.

    Yea, these shall all be certainly fulfilled. There shall be no vacillation on the part of God; no fickleness; no abandoning of his gracious intention. In Revelation 3:14, the Lord Jesus is called the “Amen.” The word means true, faithful, certain. And the expression here means that all the promises which are made to people through a Redeemer shall be certainly fulfilled. (They are promises which are confirmed and established, and which shall by no means fail.)” Barnes’ Notes

    “…God has made many promises to his people: mention is here made of “promises”, and of “all” the promises; or, as the words may be rendered, “as many promises of God”. 

    There are some which concern the temporal good of the saints; as that they shall not want any good thing; and though they shall be attended with afflictions, these shall work for their good, and they shall be supported under them. 

    Others concern their spiritual good; some of which relate to God himself, that he will be their God, which includes his everlasting love, his gracious presence, and divine protection. 

    Others relate to Christ as their surety and Saviour, by whom they are, and shall be justified and pardoned, in whom they are adopted, and by whom they shall be saved with an everlasting salvation: and others relate to the Spirit of God, as a spirit of illumination, faith, comfort, strength, and assistance, and to supplies of grace by him from Christ.

    Others concern everlasting life and happiness, and are all of them very ancient, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; are exceeding great and precious, suited to the various cases of God’s people; are free and unconditional, immutable and irrevocable, and will all of them have their certain accomplishment. 

    These promises are all “in” Christ; with and in whom could they be but in him, since he only existed when they were made, which was from everlasting? with and in whom should they be of right, but in him with whom the covenant, which contains these promises, were made, and who undertook the accomplishment of them? where could they be safe and secure but in him, in whose hands are the persons, grace, and glory of his people? not in Adam, nor in angels, nor in themselves, only in him. 

    Moreover, these promises are “in him yea”, and in him amen; they are like the Gospel which exhibits them, consistent, and all of a piece; like the covenant which contains them, and is ordered in all things, and sure; and like the author of them, whose faithfulness and lovingkindness to his in Christ shall never fail; and like Christ himself, in whom they are, who is “the amen, the true and faithful witness, the same today, yesterday, and for ever”; by whose blood, the covenant, and all the promises of it, are ratified and confirmed, and in whom, who is the truth of them, they are all fulfilled. 

    And these are unto the glory of God by us; these serve to illustrate and advance the glory of God, when they are preached by us, and held forth by us in the Gospel, just as they are in Christ, free, absolute, and unconditional; and when they are received “by us” as believers in Christ; for the stronger we are in the faith of the promises, the more glory we give to God; faith by laying hold on, and embracing the promises, glorifies the veracity, faithfulness, power, and grace of God.”  Gill’s Exposition 

    ✿*´¨)
    ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.. faith is the substance of things hoped for, the strong conviction of things yet unseen… 
    >

    hope, with me…  

    ;~)


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    Dee,

    The evidence all around us that seems to imply once you die…you stay that way … a rotting corpse, friends not returning from the dead … in this particular case it’s more a matter of lack of evidence…..

    People didn’t buck evidence … they had an idea (almost always because the actually followed the evidence at hand … which others were reluctant to do because it meant change) … but even if they went in a direction totally opposite the evidence (why would anyone do that?) .. they went out and found the evidence that not only supported their view, but also provided a better more comprehensive explanation for what they did understand.

    Give me one example of someone who “discovered” something by going against what the evidence pointed to? Note that I said against the evidence..not against whatever the commonly held belief at the time was.


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    Sopwith,

    I don’t mean this to be rude, so please do not take it that way…but,
    all you have done is present one large circular argument…”My belief is true because God said so, and God is real because the Bible says so, and the Bible is right because God wrote it”

    While I acknowledge that seems perfectly sane from the viewpoint of having faith, it is virtually the definition of being irrational and illogical. I am not looking to prove that Christian theology is true by virtue of some objective scientific evidence…quite the opposite, I am trying to get some Christians to accept that faith is NOT a function of logic or rationality…it is, as quoted, “..the substance of things hoped for…”

    The problem I have is that Christians, many of them, have deluded themselves into believing that their belief systems and objects of their faith are somehow the result of rational, logical thinking…and they are not. Once that is accepted…it is a relatively small step to atheism for most. Even the great reformer Martin Luther understood that saying that “Reason is the enemy of faith”


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    Fendrel – I’m really enjoying having you here! Can I ask a bit about your back story? Am I remembering rightly that Dee said something about you having been involved in conservative church circles before, or am I imagining that?


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    Fendrel

    Abigail Adams did. The evidence of that day said that if you exposed yourself to small pox, you would catch it and die. So, along came a doctor who scratched a needled into a pox, and then injected the dirty needle into humans. Adams and her family decided to give it a go. They all survived and became immune.


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    Fendrel

    “Christians, many of them, have deluded themselves into believing that their belief systems and objects of their faith are somehow the result of rational, logical thinking…and they are not.” If people saw Christ die and then saw him alive, that is both observable and rational.

    James, the half brother of Jesus said he was crazy. Later we find he becomes the head of the church and eventually is martyred for refusing to recant his belief in Jesus as the Christ. Jesus appeared to James after his resurrection and that appearance changed everything. In fact, one might think it was irrational to deny what he saw with his own eyes.

    In fact, since all of the disciples, except for John, died as martyrs, one would have to say they were insane for going to their deaths for something that they knew they did not see. I sure as heck wouldn’t. 


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    ✿*´¨)
    ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.. “Where is the way where light dwells?” Job 38:19… >((((º>

    Dear Father, you promised to take me to da fair when you return…

    “Wouldn’t it be lovely?”

    I’ll b wait’in in da parlor…

    (smile)

    hum, hum, hum-hum…

    …♪♫♪ “All I want is a room somewhere,
    Far away from the cold night air!
    With one enormous chair,
    Oh, wouldn’t it be loverly?
    Lots of chocolate for me to eat,
    Lots of coal makin’ lots of heat,
    Warm face, warm hands, warm feet!
    Aow, wouldn’t it be loverly?
    Loverly, loverly, loverly, loverly…”

    Aow, wouldn’t it be loverly?

    S“㋡”py!


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    Sopy,

    You’re missing Fendrel’s point. In the realm of strictly linear propositions based on verifiable data, and of logical operators such as and, or, if and only if, etc., there is no such thing as the hereafter.

    It can also be shown with a simple proof by contradiction that there is no such thing as a kind and loving God.

    Bear in mind also that the above is not an endorsement nor is it necessarily in agreement with Fendrel’s position.


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    Dee,

    Actually that’s not accurate, variolation was known to work as early as the late 1600’s and by the 1700’s was practiced in Asia, Africa, India and the Ottoman Empire. African slaves introduced variolation into America. In Massachusetts, Cotton Mather learned about the practice from his slave, Onesimus. Mather publicized the technique and the procedure was first tried during a smallpox epidemic in Boston in 1721. Between 1% to 2% of those variolated died as compared to 30% who died when they contracted the disease naturally.

    John Adams had traveled from Braintree to Boston—about 12 miles—for variolation following a smallpox epidemic in 1764. At the time and for years later Abigail’s mother, terrified of the risky treatment, would not allow her to get the treatment. By 1776, however, Abigail’s mother was dead, another epidemic had swept through Boston, and Abigail was determined to take advantage of it.

    So on July 12, she and her four children were part of a party that traveled up to Boston from Braintree. In a letter to John, Abigail explained that she brought with them a cow, some hay, and wood, as well. Abigail, her sisters, and their broods were among 17 people, including two maids and a black man, who crowded into a Boston house for the treatment. Abigail noted that the town was crowded with people from the countryside undergoing the same treatment.

    This was not an instance of someone making a discovery by running contrary to the data…sorry.

    Regarding martyrdom, if you’ll forgive the expression, OMG!

    History is replete with people who died as martyrs for something they either thought was true, but wasn’t…knew was untrue but believed that their death would serve a greater purpose, were simply mentally deranged or of course those who became martyrs quite unwillingly.

    Muff,

    But it should be 🙂


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    Fendrel,

    You are so certain that I will not get my ruby slippers! Even I’m uncertain (Heisenberg principle) as to the eventual outcome. I know full well that my path in this life will not run forever and that I will go into the clearing probably sooner rather than later. Even so, I still choose to hope in a better resurrection despite empirical evidence to the contrary. Note also that hope is not the same as assurance.

    Even if I don’t get my ruby slippers and only become worm food, that’s ok too. I have loved & been loved, have had good fortune & have been hammered, have made a difference for the better in lives here and now and in lives yet unborn by the butterfly effect. What’s more to ask for? I am a happy camper.


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    Muff,

    I wish that happiness for you as well, and if I could make those ruby slippers for you myself I’d begin work immediately…I’m sure that very few could deserve them more my friend.


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    “Dancing n’ Singing:  In Da Face Of Reason?”

    Muff, 

    HowDee,

    Thanx!  I am quite clear of Fendrel’s furiously ferret’d  facade. …in things of ‘faith’, boolean logic x = y need not apply.

    Elementary, my dear Watson!

    “Who is this that darkeneth counsel 
      By words without knowledge? 
           Gird up now thy loins like a man; 
      For I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 
         Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? 
      Declare, if thou hast understanding.”

                                             …Our Father in Heaven said this!

    hmmm…

    wherez ma tar bucket n’ featherz?

    (grin)

    hahahahahahahah

    S“㋡”py!


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    Sopy – Dude… Fendrel used to be a member of an SGM church.

    I can *totally* get his current atheism; I have friends (not from SGM) who’ve gone the same route after being in highly abusive churches/religious systems.


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    Fendrel – My apologies if I’m making assumptions about how/why you became an atheist. It’s been a while since we last had those convos, and I don’t mean to be presumptuous… but it does seem to me that your changes in belief mirror those of many others who’ve been a similar route.

    Thanks muchly for all the info. on smallpox/cowpox vaccination! ‘Tis truly fascinating!


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    numo,

    Unfortunately SGM had no impact on my becoming an atheist which occurred maybe 15 or so years later after I had left, but it was a reasonable guess 🙂

    It seems that Sop both gets my point and misses it at the same time … what shall I do 🙂

    Dee,

    Still owe me an example 🙂


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    Fendrel – well then, should we blame it on the MO Synod? 😉 [joking, joking, peeps!]


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    Fendrel

    It must make you feel secure knowing that you are not mentally deranged and that all others who were martyrs either were deranged or liars. 


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    Fendrel

    So, Abigail was smart when she decided to get  the small pox “scratch” but she was not so smart because she believed in God?


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    Dee & Fendrel,

    In my opinion, belief in the Almighty has little to do with smarts or lack of smarts. Throughout human history mental titans, dullards, and everything in between have chosen to believe or disbelieve based solely on their own overall uniqueness as human beings.


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    Sorry, can I butt in on the question asked to Dee? re: “Give me one example of someone who “discovered” something by going against what the evidence pointed to? Note that I said against the evidence..not against whatever the commonly held belief at the time was”.

    I’d be further involved in the discussion here (which I’m loving) but I’m pedal to the metal at the moment. Anyhow, here’s an answer to Fendrel – try googling H pylori and Doctors Marshall and Warren (two Australians, woop woop woop). There’s an interesting back story as to how they went against the medical establishment – he ended up having to infect himself to prove it.

    Some quotes from the link below:

    Nobel for stomach ulcer discovery

    Stomach ulcers can be treated with antibiotics
    Two Australian scientists have been awarded the Nobel prize for medicine for their discovery that stomach ulcers can be caused by a bacterial infection.

    Lord May of Oxford, President of the Royal Society, said: “The work by Barry Marshall and Robin Warren produced one of the most radical and important changes in the last 50 years in the perception of a medical condition.

    “Their results led to the recognition that gastric disorders are infectious diseases, and overturned the previous view that they were physiological illnesses.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4304290.stm


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    Fendrel @ 11.43 am “Maybe there is life after death, but to believe that it is true without supporting evidence and when all the existing evidence points in the opposite direction is illogical and irrational, regardless of whether it turns out to right or wrong in the end”.

    Fendrel – what is the existing evidence that points out that there is not life after death?

    (note: I have read above posts but only very quickly and still trying to get my head around some of the philosophical arguments, so apologies if I’ve asked a question twice)


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    Dee,

    It’s not about being “smart” in general….I think we have an opportunity to exercise at each “fork in the road” so to speak, either rational, logical thought or something else (in this case faith).

    A person can be a genius and still manage to have beliefs in certain areas that do not conform to rationality or logic…in fact I am reasonably sure that most people are a mix or rational thought and irrational…sometimes knowingly and at other times unwittingly…it has little if anything to do with IQ

    I know of very few people who will close their eyes, trusting God or Fate for their safety while crossing a busy street…we all seem to handle street crossing in a rational manner, i.e. we look first! On the other hand most of us probably hold on to some idea of an idyllic afterlife to which loved ones have gone and it’s probably envisioned differently by just about everyone….not a very rational thought process there…more faith and a need to feel like our loved ones are happy…especially true if their life here hasn’t been so wonderful.

    So I would maintain that Abigail’s action in seeking out a smallpox vaccine based on previously successful trials…was a rational act…her persistent belief in an invisible, omniscient, omnipotent being that talked to her…not so rational.

    Haitch,

    Glad you’re enjoying to chat! In that case there is no evidence either way…since, unless Dee is holding out on us, she can’t die, record what happens and then come back under controlled conditions! 🙂

    Since there isn’t evidence either way…I would argue that the most rational course of action is to look at what we do know…namely that living things seems to die, stop working, and eventually rot and decompose after which they no longer interact with the world around them. Based on that…there is simply no compelling reason to suppose that there is something magical happening behind the scenes. Evidence should compel our belief, not blind faith.

    Hey, I’m all for hypothesizing, but there should be something driving the hypothesis…maybe something that we see which is unexplained by the data or else data that seems to contradict the knowledge we already have. Faith operates very differently, it not only hypothesizes, but those exercising faith actually believe that the object of their faith is not only an idea or hypothesis but actual fact…in the absence of evidence and they have such a strong belief in what they believe that they allow it to affect their daily lives…this is not rational.

    Please note, it doesn’t mean they are incorrect…maybe what they have faith in really does exist…but for now…without supporting evidence…it is not a rational course of action to believe in it.

    Ultimately I am not trying to convince anyone that they are wrong…only that to believe in the supernatural is not a rational or logical course of action. I find it difficult to understand why Christians seem to feel the need to defend their beliefs as rational…when faith and reason are clearly at odds.


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    Fendrel, here’s my thoughts on it at the moment. I see it the other way. That there’s not enough evidence to prove that there’s not an afterlife. Similarly, there’s not enough evidence to prove that afterlife does not exist. I would be foolish to be emphatic and labour the point because – no one knows. So the jury is out with me.

    One guy in the bible escaped death – Elijah. No one else seems to. I’m not sure in comparative religions if there are similar stories. Aside from that, it seems pretty convincing to me that we’re all going to die one day, I’ll take that as a fact. As to the ‘what next’ – that’s intriguing. I held someone when they died and took their last breath. The rational part of me asked, ‘well I don’t know if that is it – is it final or not?’ It certainly is for the body (note my last wishes – I wish to have a Zoastrian-Australian-Haitch style burial where I get placed on a really remote outback road and the Wedge Tailed Eagles can have a feed).

    But as to the spirit, or soul, or essence of a person or whatever you want to call it? Logically and rationally, I cannot call it either way. I don’t know if that life essence dies with the person or not. So I don’t believe there is any evidence that determines what happens after the point of death.


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    Fendrel said “In that case there is no evidence either way…since, unless Dee is holding out on us, she can’t die, record what happens and then come back under controlled conditions! 🙂 ”

    Oh, I just re-watched Source Code today. I nominate Dee to be the next ‘control’ when she ‘passes over’. IMAGINE what that 8 minutes would do to the blogging world of TWW and wider !!!!! (so sorry if my macabre sense of humour is coming to the fore)


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    Haitch,

    Getting late ..or is it early..in any case I’ll try to be brief

    If saying that there isn’t enough evidence to disprove an afterlife, therefore you find believing in it to be a rational decision would imply that believing in almost anything would be equally rational…for example…maybe we all go to mars after we die, or possibly we all turn into flying unicorns or garden gnomes…the list of things for which there is no evidence is almost limitless…shall we believe in all of them?

    Is there any difference, from an empirical evidence standpoint between believing in an afterlife in heaven and believing that we turn into pink geese or maybe that we come back to life in a parallel universe as sand fleas, after all each of those options seems to be supported by the same amount of evidence…how can we call them logical or rational beliefs?


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    It’s later afternoon, all good.
    Fendrel – I actually think you can answer that question.


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    Muff

    I agree that “belief in the Almighty has little to do with smarts or lack of smarts.” However, todays Neo-Atheists are hell bent on deningrating the IQ of the faithful. And if you bring up a Francis Collins, they then claim that these people are bordering on deranged. So, I have a purpose in arguing both for the sanity, and the IQ, of believers.


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    Haitch

    That was truly a remarkable find. So many people were doomed to inadequte treatment which led to lifethreatening stomach bleeds. And to think that, in most instances it was not stress but bacteria!


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    Fendrel

    “On the other hand most of us probably hold on to some idea of an idyllic afterlife to which loved ones have gone and it’s probably envisioned differently by just about everyone….not a very rational thought process there…more faith and a need to feel like our loved ones are happy…especially true if their life here hasn’t been so wonderful.”

    You consistently bring up “rational” as if somehow atheist are “rational” and others are not. That has beed the push of the NeoAtheists. The leaders even suggested the name “Brights”  as an alternative to Atheist.

    As you know, the vast majority of the world believe in an afterlife. What you are implying, whether you mean to or not, is the majority of the world is irrational in this area and you, along with the rest of the “brights” are rational.

    As for faith being a balm because someone’s life is not so wonderful, I would contenc that there is much in life that is sad and hard and that even the “Brights” have difficult lives. So, shoudl I say atheists are not raional becauase they see their hard lives and use it to prove tht God  does not exist, In fat, that is one of the reasons behind in athiesm-life bites, see the earthquakes so God does not exist. I argue your point right back at you.


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    Haitch

    Spring for my plane ticket and i will make sure  it is done just to see what you are talking about.

    “note my last wishes – I wish to have a Zoastrian-Australian-Haitch style burial where I get placed on a really remote outback road and the Wedge Tailed Eagles can have a feed.”


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    Haith

    There is a hysterical Christian comedy site called Lark News. One of their headlines was “8year old dies and goes to heaven and then is brought back to life. Reports Grandma is not there.”


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    Dee,

    I am trying very hard NOT to throw out the baby with the bath water! It is individual decisions that are either rational or not…it is NOT the person as a whole. Atheists are just as capable as anyone else of making irrational choices and, having been one, I am confident in saying that people who hold on to religious beliefs are quite capable of making rational choices.

    In summary…

    Point #1.

    ALL I am trying to get at is that the decision to accept as factual the existence of the supernatural, in the absence of hard evidence to support it and in most cases contrary to the evidence that we DO posses, is not a rational decision. This is true no matter who makes the decision or what their IQ might be.

    Point #2

    An extension to point #1 is that, while I may indulge myself and choose to believe in the existence of unicorns, I realize and acknowledge it for what it is…an imaginary indulgence that makes me feel good when I’m tired (I lay back in my chair and imagine colorful unicorns outside grazing in the grass). But if I allow myself to become so enamored with my own fantasy that I start to really believe that unicorns exist to the point that I let that imagined existence affect or control my life…then I have allowed it to go too far… from a harmless indulgence to something which can exert control over me in the real world…I have become delusional….at least in that one area…I may still be perfectly sane everywhere else.

    Point #3

    Now imagine that I have so convinced myself of the reality of Unicorns that I not only build my life around their existence, but I go a step further and dedicate a portion of my life trying to convince others of their existence… teaching children to believe in them and instructing them on how to model their lives after what the unicorns want…replete with a unicorn theology, schools to study unicorns, libraries of books on the unicorn and of course, ultimately, to wars, killing those who maintain that dragons and not unicorns are the true guardians of the human race!

    Sound familiar?


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    .
    ✿*´¨)
    ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
    (¸.•´ (¸.•`  ¤ “Illusionary Comport Perhaps?”*´¨)

    HowDee YaAll,

    …Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered, weak and weary, over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore, while I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping, as of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door. “‘Tis some visitor,” I muttered, “tapping at my chamber door, only this, and nothing more.”

    tap, tap, tap…

    Hey, “Numo”, I gotz dis here spiritual tyre pump….

    Huh?

    Fendrel’s convinced that the proper order of his wheels turning about are a flat one! Wump, Wump, Wump! Try as anyone might, however sincere, convincing him (or others like him) otherwise is a ‘net zero proposition’. He has disregarded a position of supernatural import convinced to an assurity of his present conviction. Deterring him from his fisurable and fractured position will be of no avail. He is thorouly convinced his cause is just. He is a true un-believer seeking others exhorably to his ‘ennobled’ cause.

    He is not like the fallen angels, however, nor their prince, for he has convinced himself of their ‘reasonable’ impossibility? He is in ‘hell’ , yet knows it not. (Wartburg post- ‘Hell House Madness’ pun intended.)

    Like many of the readers here at Wartbug, I have managed to keep my faith ‘reasonably’ intact. Men, of yet, have not succeeded in damaging the scripture to the point of unreconition, or impinged upon their usefulness in presenting a supreme and elastic hope and an enviably comforting provisioning for a creature that has met with misfortune, becoming far removed from his original nobel stature. It would appear that modern man is ‘hell-bent” upon marring the remaining civility between this condition and the promise generously offered him presently, by Christ, Jesus, himself.

    What?

    “…least they stretch forth their hand…a sword to guard the way?”

    know your scriptures…

    woosh, woos, woosh!  woosh, woos, woosh! woosh, woos, woosh! woosh, woos, woosh! woosh, woos, woosh! woosh, woos, woosh! woosh, woos, woosh!

    (I’ze a using ma tyre pump…)    -snicker-

    “I came that they might have life”, “…all those who come to me, I shall not turn away” , “…come unto me all you who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest!” Jesus

     “pump up the volume?”  (sure thing!)

    Jesus offers you, dear reader, ‘faith’ in his precious promises, and his gracious salvation. Let us ‘reason’ together, says the Lord, though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as wool. A separation in times past, can become a wonderful fellowship moving forward, as I said, hope deferred…makes one’s heart sick, yet Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Alas, hope can ‘b’ renewed…

    That being said, I am inclined to be empathic, simpethic, and quite understanding to Fendrel’s  blight’d condition partly due to the nefarious disheveled conditions  of SGM or some other blighted vineyard perhaps? Fendrel our ‘Madness’ director, offers a fascination with what death has to offer (or not!) , however,  Jesus came to offer the words of  “eternal life”

    It’s not a hard choice, it only looks like it. 🙂

    Careful, don’t let the “goblins” get you!

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

    S“㋡”py!


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    Fendrel

    Your hermeneutic falls flat in the beginning. It starts with your premise. You assume that believing in the supernatural is “irrational.” This is the typical atheist construct and is used to subtly suggest the irrationality of religious belief in spite of your protests to the contrary. Remember, I spent years reading the atheists and reading the antitestimonials at ExChristian so I know the schtick. The reason that the atheists do not make major headway is people see through the arguments to me “bright; you “irrational.” In fact, one might be tempted to say that atheists are the ones tiltng at windmills since the concept of God is deeply embedded in the belief systems of all cultures. Could it be that atheists are actively ignoring that still, small voice of something more? 

    Believing in the supernatural can be rational. In fact, what if the supernatural were true? Then the supernatural becomes the natural. For example, it is rational to assume that everything proceeds from  cause. One looks at the universe. One has two choices.. Either the universe is an uncaused first cause, perpetually expanding and contracting, or there is another uncaused first cause. You do not know the answer to that since you have only existed what appears to be a slowly expanding universe. (I am not a physicist so I have no problem with anyone clarifying that expansion thing for me). This is hardly dreaming up the Flying Spaghetti Monster and comparing those who believe in God to that that creature is silly  and could be considered condescending. (Same thing with unicorns).

    If I were an atheist, I would start by being nice like the dude at the Friendly Atheist and then get involved in that crowd who are attemtping to define moral/ethical values outside of the Bible. Both of those actually add to the discussion without denigrating the “raionality”  of the other.

     


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    Dee,

    I was being nice…and as you know I spent many years on the other side of the fence…so I have some idea of what’s involved and, even though you don’t seem to agree with me, I believe that I am contributing.

    Since you say that I am assuming what I am trying to prove…let me put the question to you as directly as possible…

    Question #1

    Do you think that someone who holds a position and insists on the correctness of their position in the absence of any objective evidence is being rational?

    Question #2

    Do you think that the exercise of faith must be rational in order to be useful?

    Question #3

    If faith is indeed based on evidence and is also rational and logical why do suppose it is so difficult to get an atheist, who supposedly values those traits, to change their mind and embrace faith in the supernatural?


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    Fendrel

    Your bias is showing in all three questions. You are attempting to prove that atheism is rational and religion is irrational.I deeply disagree with you. This is a typical atheist trajectory with a particular goal.  If an atheist can get the Christian to cede rationality, ergo baseless faith, then it is quite easy to dismiss the entirety of their claims.

    I believe there is objective evidence. There is the testimony, and post resurrection behavior of the disciples aand other witnesses.In a court of law-a jury gets to decide on the fate of those  who are being charged with a crime. They weigh the evidence and come to a conclusion based on that evidence. You can say you disagree with their conclusion but you cannot accuse them all of being irrational. I believe the accounts of the eye witness testimony and so do many others. You don’t. You don’t get a win out of this argument-merely a hung jury.

    I am not convinced that all atheists are atheists due to their superior rationality as you seem to argue.  “why do suppose it is so difficult to get an atheist, who supposedly values those traits, to change their mind and embrace faith in the supernatural?”

    There are many reasons that people might reject faith. You are presenting to me, once again, that pure rationality is part of the decision-making process of atheists. Atheists are human beings with feelings as well. They are no different than Christians.  Some come to atheism out of pain, others out of rational thinking.  And for almost all, the motives and thinking are intertwined. The same things goes for Christians. But, I will not cede raionality to the realm of the atheists alone.We all deal with mixed motives.


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    On the rational vs. the irrational:

    I will agree that faith and hope are irrational. In an arithmetic sense, they don’t stop with neat and finite ratios of known quantities that terminate with zeros or repeat over and over with the same decimal sequence.

    At present and as far as I can see into the future I will remain incurably irrational with regard to my belief in the Almighty.


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    Muff,

    Tis all I ask. 🙂

    Dee,

    But why not answer the questions directly … especially the 1st one. We can discuss later whether there is in fact evidence, but there is little sense moving forward until we both agree on some definition of what it means to be irrational.

    If you have a better one that I proposed, i.e. certainty of belief in the absence of evidence, than please propose another.

    If you wish me to accept your premise that faith and belief in the supernatural is rational and logical and based on objective evidence, than I do not think it is either being mean spirited, or insensitive or demeaning to ask that you provide such evidence, that the evidence be of sufficient kind and quality to overwhelm what we experience and know of the world around us and that if it doesn’t exists, that you at least acknowledge that belief in the supernatural is outside of and not dependent on any type of scientific methodology or objective evidence.

    Muff seems to not have a problem with that concept, but you seem to rebel against it…what am I missing?


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    fendrel

    Here is the problem.You say ” I do not think it is either being mean spirited, or insensitive or demeaning to ask that you provide such evidence, that the evidence be of sufficient kind and quality to overwhelm what we experience and know of the world around us and that if it doesn’t exists. “

    You define “sufficient” and “quality”  with your own prejudices. I say that the testimony of the eyewitnesses that saw a Resurrected Savior is sufficient. You do not. If presented with that evidence in a court of law, I would vote in favor the witnesses and say that they saw someone who was dead come alive. You think they they are full of it. That happens all the time in courts. So, we have a hung jury because you do not buy the evidence. I do. If you kept harping on a jury member who voted against what you believed to be the evidence, it could be perceived as being insensitive, demeaning, etc. You obviously are putting your definition of good evidence above my thoughts on the matter. I do not cede to your definition of objective evidence.  

    As for Muff, I think he has weighed the evidence of Christianity based on something besides indigestion. I was going to suggest to him that he attempt to elucidate why he chose Christianity as opposed to another faith. My guess is that the narrative of Christianity has some appeal to him and that he is not as irrational as he would claim. In fact, I think Muff is pretty intelligent as well as being a nice guy!


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    ah,

    give me an example of an eyewitness to the resurrection.


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    Fendrel

    You know to whom am referring and you will now spend time telling me you do not accept the Bible.But I do and so do others. The evidence is sufficient for me.


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    Dee,

    I have to admit that knowing what I am going to say, before I have said it, certainly would save time in our discussions…because then you could dismiss me without event giving me an opportunity to speak…but in this case I think you would have been incorrect.

    What I was going to point out was that you do not have an eyewitness account. What you have, in fact, is a written record some 70 years or more after the event written by a person who says that another person said that he saw Christ after his resurrection…this is NOT eyewitness testimony, and in any court of law it would be thrown out in an instant.

    Now if you actually KNOW someone living who is willing to confess to seeing Jesus, I would be willing to consider that…

    I understand that you may still choose to accept what you have as evidence and that’s certainly your right to do so, but I find it difficult to call that a reasonable assumption (i.e. that it must be true)

    Secondly, I do not define “sufficient” or “quality” with my own prejudices, although I must start somewhere, so yes I do have a definition in mind, but I am more than open to change those definitions if we can agree on something different, as long as we don’t just throw those definitions to the wind so they lose virtually any meaning.


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    Since an awful lot of things that we do in life – good things, I might add – aren’t necessarily based on the most rational or logical choices, I wonder if we can drop “logical” and “rational” for a while?

    None of us are Mr. Spock, and even he had an “irrational” side!


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    Further… I think some atheists are pretty much deifying both “reason” and “logic.”

    ‘Tis my opinion, of course… 😉


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    numo,

    I actually had the same thought…it seems those words, unfortunately, are becoming a bit inflammatory…although I have tried to explain what I mean by them.

    How does the word “reasonable” work?

    So, to rephrase my basic question with our new word it would be…

    Is it reasonable to accept an axiom as true, without demanding verifiable, objective evidence of a scientific nature of sufficient quality and in sufficient quantity, to be determined by how different the axiom is, from our daily experiences and what we can experimentally verify as true.

    maybe that’s a bit verbose … but if we want to have any discussions of faith versus science, then we need to come up with a definition of terms, otherwise it will be hopeless.

    anyone else who’s following this thread care to jump in?


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    Fendrel

    You said precisely that I thought you would say. You rare using the skeptics view of when the gospels were written after 70 AD. In fact, there is a great dea lof debate about this. Do we really need to go to the my sources versus your sources?  In fact, there is some evidence that they were written within 20 years of the Resurrection. I believe that the evidence is credible. BTW you might like this article. It was written in the Washington Post-Atheists Don’t Own Reason. Link


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    Dee,

    I’ll check it out…but even if it was 20 years, it’s still a long time, and it’s still I said that he said, etc. still not close to “eyewitness” anything.

    I glanced at the article briefly while writing this (I will read it in full later), but I’d like to comment on what I saw…

    The author may be absolutely correct, and each of the atheists listed may in fact be guilty of using rhetoric and emotionally charged language, and have made irrational or illogical arguments….

    So what? The fact they they too are human and not perfect in no way diminished the basic message which is that reason and logic are the best methods we have of understanding our world and that accepting things as true without requiring any supporting scientific evidence is not reasonable.

    It is the same argument that atheists use against religion when they accuse religion of being evil simply because some practitioners misused or twisted biblical text to support their own purpose. The fact that someone misquotes or twists a good message into a bad one, doesn’t nullify the message.

    Because Harris or Dennet or Hitchens sometimes falter and are guilty of being irrational or illogical doesn’t alter the fact the reason and logic should be used to the best of our abilities in our search for truth. The author of the Acts of the Apostles would no doubt concur (Acts 17:11).


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    .
    ✿*´¨)
    ¸.•´¸.•*´¨) ¸.•*¨)
    (¸.•´ (¸.•`  ¤ “Jump: Say What?”*´¨)

    HowDee YaAll,

    Fendrel,

    At present and as far as I can see into the future I will remain absolutely totally incurably ‘rational’ with esteemed regard to my ‘faith’ in the Almighty; He’s got the best dang game in town: ‘Eternal Life’.

    Besides, any self-respecting rodere knows how ta jump from a burning vessel… Jump fella! “Jump!” -snark-

    Faith is the generous substance of things hoped for: Jesus will catch ya!

    *
    Pants on fire? Sorry fella, can’t help you there…

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    S“㋡”py!


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    I watched Alfred Hitchcock’s “The Birds” by candlelight with a glass of wine to recover with my inner introvert after all the halloween engingeering (costume, candy, and social) that comes with the mom hat (at least my mom hat).

    An annual post trick=or=treating solitary indulgence.


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    Re. the whole notion of “eyewitness” testimony, I seriously doubt that the writers and early readers of the Gospels had the same concept of it as we do today. We’ve been influenced by our legal system – and many other things in our society – to accept certain things as true and reasonable and others as not, even when – like the research on viral and bacterial causes of many stomach problems – both older data *and* conventional wisdom turned out to be dead wrong…


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    Fendrel

    The point of the article was not that Dawkins , et al, are human. It was to point out that they do not hold the corner on reason, something that they like to pretend in their talks and books.And, after reading ExChristians for years, so do many of the folks over there. That is bunkum. Yes, they are rational but so are Christians. We just disagree on the evidence.

    Secondly, do you remember where you were when the Challenger blew up? I do.I was home with pneumonia and lying on the couch. I remember what I was wearing and what I ate that day. That was in 1986, over 26 years ago. Certain things you never forget

    20 years, post Resurrection, was not that long. And let me tell you, a Resurrection is not something that you would forget. 20 years post facto, the disciples were still alive. James had not been pushed off the Temple roof in martyrdom.  Paul, although not an actual one of the original 12, knew them and was still around. All of them would have vigorously protested any letter which did not state the truth. Never forget that Paul said that it the resurrection did not happen, then all of them were fools. That does not sound like the writing of a mad man.

    That is one of the reasons that people who are adamantly opposed to religion like to say the letters were written 70 years later. That is highly unlikely. You see,the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, something that would have been mentioned in the writings. The Temple figured prominently in the life of the Jews,the Christians still gathered in the areas around the Temple, and you can be sure the early Christians would have noted such an occurrence.

    That is one of the reasons that I wrote Valerie Tarico when she stated that the Book of Revelation was written around 90 AD. I said that, in fact, since the destruction of the Temple was not mentioned, that date was highly suspect. Surprise of surprises! She contacted an expert friend of hers (and you can be sure said friend was not an evangelical) who said that, indeed, I could well be correct. Tarico had the guts to tell me that and for that I give her props.

    Now, I know you do not accept this as evidence.You are rational.  I do and I am rational. Hung jury. 


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    Numo

    Good comment!


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    elastigirl

    I believe The Birds, Wait Until Dark and Psycho are the scariest movies of all time. 


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    I have never been able to watch more than 5 minutes of “The Birds” – it’s too terrifying.

    My H’ween viewing is more along the lines of “It’s the Great Pumpkin, charlie Brown!” and some of the South Park H’ween episodes. (“Spooky Fish” and “Pink Eye” are 2 of my faves – the latter because I hate zombie movies/TV shows and it’s a satire of zombie flicks, w/o all the blood and guts… the zombies all have – you guessed it – pink eye!)


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    Re. believing "eyewitness testimony," may I submit an exhibit?

    It's the very 1st photograph of a human being – really, it's a daguerreotype, taken by none other than Louis-Jacques Daguerre himself, back in 1838. It depicts one of the busiest streets in Paris, and yet… the exposure was so long (early daguerreotype exposures took 10+ minutes in the very best lighting conditions), so… none of the traffic – human and horse-drawn – is visible. We see an empty boulevard. What we see is not what Daguerre saw while he was sitting with the camera pointed out his window.

    I 1st saw this image in the early 1970s, while taking a course on the history of photography. It's so still and almost ghostly (Paris appears to be completely uninhabited) that it made a huge impression on me – one that I've never been able to alter in my mind's eye.

    Even though I know – intellectually – that the street was incredibly crowded, I cannot convince myself that it looked – or was – anything other than what we can see in this daguerreotype. (i.e., devoid of people, except for the shoeshine man and his customer, down in the lower left.)


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    i love The Birds. No music, ever. Adds to the eeriness.

    I love Bodega Bay, and the fact that Rod Taylor works in congested San Francisco, but goes home to this sleepy, oh so quiet Bodega Bay on week ends. Love the contrast. I love wide open, minimal human noise, unpopulated places. The antidote to my noisy, very peopled life.


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    numo,

    well, you can’t beat “It’s The Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown”, can you. I forgot to watch that this year. Snoopy pretending to be the Great Pumpkin, rising out of the pumpkins making this ascending “woooooooooooooo” sound with his dog tone of voice. So funny!


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    dee,

    hmmmm, scariest movies of all time…. i can’t do truly scary, but I like dark. I thought Bladerunner was deliciously dark & interesting.


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    elastigirl – you don’t think The Birds is scary?! o.O

    Blade Runner is fascinating, and very dark.

    but… a few nights ago I watched (wait for it) The Fifth Element… definitely on my list of all-time worst movies, and not in an enjoyable way. (I had never seen it before, though a couple of years ago I watched the 1st 15+ minutes and promptly shut it off, because it was just too stupid for words. I should have stood firm this time around!)


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    elastigirl (again) – Wasn’t Hitchcock driving poor Tippi Hedren around the bend while The Birds was being made?

    Now there’s a horror story for sure. (I know it did happen, but am vague as to when, other than it being somehow linked with the filming of The Birds…)


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    Hi,numo.

    No, I don’t think The Birds is scary. But evocative! And nostalgic.

    Never heard of The Fifth Element — but i’m very out of touch with a number of things. I’ll avoid it. Was it meant to be scary? I think making a truly scary film is a job few can do.

    Driving Tippi around the bend? As in rolling in the sheets with? Yeah, very disturbing!

    Trivia — i found Jimmy Stewart’s apartment in San Francisco from Vertigo by deductive reasoning looking at a street map. I’m sort of proud of that. I love to drive by it.


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    “Driving her around the bend” as in following her, trying to force her to have sex with him and – I looked it up – locking her in a pen with a swarm of birds for several hours during the filming. (And yes, they pecked her…)

    he really was a sick man.


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    very weird! the dark side of genious?


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    He was obsessed with blondes – more specifically, with the blonde actresses that he cast… think about it. (Eva Marie Saint, Janet Leigh, Tippi Hedren…)

    It was still the era of men in power in H’wood doing what they wanted, when they wanted… no such thing as a sexual harrassement suit back then.


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    Dee,

    So, if I understand you correctly…you believe that the writings which took place in the first century, claiming that other people had witnessed the coming back to life of a Jewish carpenter, which were selectively compiled from what was available, in an age when resurrection stories were rather common place in stories that both of us would classify as myths, in a world where there are roughly 56 million deaths occurring per year and not a single instance of someone coming back from the dead has ever been verified in all the years that you or I have been living (not counting medical resuscitation…talking about absolutely brain dead…or whatever qualifications you would say were requisite for Jesus’ resurrection) is, for you, sufficient evidence that miracles can occur.

    If that’s an accurate description then you are correct, we are about as far apart on a definition of “reasonable” as we can probably get. I don’t say any of these things to be mean spirited, I think you know me better than that, I am just in shock and find it difficult to believe that something so flimsy…in comparison to our real time observations of how death works (repeated millions and millions of times over) could convince anyone.

    Regarding early manuscripts, could you please provide some references for your early dates, I was unable to find anything for the time period you offered (<70 years). Most of what I found was similar to the snippet below.

    The manuscripts dating from 100 to 300 AD are almost entirely papyrus fragments. These fragments are named with a “P” followed by a number. The vast majority of them were found in Egypt in the twentieth century, and are now kept in various museums and libraries throughout the world, including at Dublin, Ann Arbor, Cologny (Switzerland), the Vatican and Vienna.

    The earliest manuscript of the New Testament was discovered about 50 years ago. P52 is a small papyrus fragment of the Gospel of John (18:31-33 on the front; 18:37-38 on the back), and it has been dated to about 125 AD. This makes it a very important little manuscript, because John has been almost unanimously held by scholars to be the latest of the four gospels. So if copies of John were in circulation by 125, the others must have been written considerably earlier. Moreover, the Gospel of John’s greater theological development when compared with the other three gospels has led some scholars to conclude it was written as late as 120 or even 150 AD. The P52 fragment seems to make such late dates impossible. {4}

    In addition to the early papyrus fragments, a large number of parchment manuscripts have been found that date from 300 AD onward. These are usually named for the place in which they were discovered and are abbreviated by a letter or sometimes a number. The manuscripts A/02 (Codex Alexandrinus), B/03 (Codex Vaticanus), and Sin./01 (Codex Sinaiticus) contain nearly complete sets of the New Testament. By comparing these to the earlier papyrus fragments, they have been shown to be quite reliable.

    Codex Vaticanus (B), the earliest of the great parchment manuscripts at about 300 AD, has resided in the Vatican since the middle ages and remains there today. It is one of the most important manuscripts for textual criticism.

    Codex Sinaiticus (Sin.) dates to about 350 AD. It was discovered in 1844 in a monastery on Mount Sinai by a Russian. After some resistance, he persuaded the resident monks to allow him to take it to St. Petersburg. On Christmas Eve, 1933, the Soviet government sold it to the British Museum for 100,000 pounds. It was put on permanent display in the British Library, where it still resides, along with other early biblical manuscripts. {5}

    Codex Alexandrinus (A), dating to circa 450 AD, was transferred from the Christian library in Alexandria to the British Library in the seventeenth century, where it still resides today. The Catholic Encyclopedia details its history:


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    elastigirl

    “goes home to this sleepy, oh so quiet Bodega Bay on week ends.” Except for the attack birds!!!!


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    numo

    I did not know that about the 1st photo of a human being. Fascinating…. But, that one eyewitness to what appears to be a deserted street is clarified by other sources that assure us Paris was busy during that time. The same goes for the number of sources that describe the growing Christian community which followed a Resurrected Christ. The persecutions are well documented. I do believe it boils down to whether or not one believes the testimony of the eyewitnesses. After taking lots of things into consideration, including the fact that a no-nothing group of upstarts became a major religion in fairly short order, I say that the Resurrection is true. I am usually rational-especially after a cup of coffee.


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    elastigirl

    Bladerunner is a classic. It sure raises the question of what constitutes a human.


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    Frank Morrison: “Who Really Moved The Stone?”

        Hello,

           Many owe Frank Morison a great debt of gratitude. 

    How So?

    Well, his book: “Who Moved the Stone?”, really makes a solid connection. It’s use has afforded many an important early link in a long chain of evidence that God used to bring them into Christ’s kingdom. This may very well be an excellent starting point for anyone’s spiritual investigation.

    Let’s take a closer look:

    Well, for Frank, apparently the strangeness of the Resurrection story captured his attention, and being influenced by more than a few skeptic thinkers at the turn of the century, he simply set out to prove that the story of Christ’s Resurrection was bogus, a hoax, aka only a myth. His probings, however, led him an unanticipated path, -that of discovering the validity of the biblical record, for himself, in a very moving and personal way!  

    Worth a look? You bet!

    “This is a well-researched book that is as fascinating in its appeal to reason as it is accurate to the truthfulness of the Resurrection.”

    Consider Carefully?

    You Decide.

    Blessings!

    IronClad


    “Who Moved the Stone?”
    ISBN-10: 0310295610
    ISBN-13: 978-0310295617


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    I hope no one minds my joining this conversation so late, and out of the blue. And as a first time commenter on this blog, to boot. Still, there is something I want to say on the subject at hand (quite a bit to say, in fact, but lack of time and energy constrain me), and Fendrel seems to have left the door open.

    Fendrel

    Your definition of “rational” or “reasonable” seems to be restricted to empirical evidence alone. And if you think that empiricism is the only valid source of knowledge, then religion probably must seem utterly unreasonable.

    Speaking for myself, I’m not an empiricist. I’m convinced that there are questions that experimentation and observation alone can’t answer. And I accept that other kinds of knowledge exist — and that one of them is “revealed knowledge”, or revelation. What I primarily accept as “revealed” evidence of God’s nature and character is the Bible. I have several reasons for doing so; some are logical and intellectual, others are more emotional and intuitive. (Can’t get into too much detail at the moment — must sleep soon.)

    You may look on the writings of the Bible as very flimsy evidence. From a strictly scientific point of view, they might very well be so. However, I don’t apply scientific standards to the evidence in the Bible, at least not to decide whether it speaks accurately about God and our relationship to Him. Revelation is a different kind of knowledge from empiricism — the kind of evidence for it will be different, and should be subject to other criteria, I think.

    In other words, it may very well seem “irrational” to believe in Christianity, but only to those who subscribe to a very narrow definition of “reasonable”, and who accept only one kind of knowledge. I don’t.

    If I’m mistaken about any of my assessments of you above, please let us all know. Also, I don’t mean for my statements to be representative of all Christians. This is just how I see it — my very partial response to some of the questions you’re raising.

    (My apologies in advance if I can’t answer questions anyone has for me right away. I live half a world away, with a full time job. Will join in again if and when I have time.)


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    IronClad,

    Here is a link of a good review of that book…and I have included one of my favorite comments..

    “Despite Morison’s repeated claims that anybody can tell that the Gospels are true just by reading them, he acknowledges that there are some things which don’t seem so true. For example, in Chapter 9, he points out that there was a seven week gap between the resurrection of Jesus and the disciples proclamation in Jerusalem that Jesus had risen.

    Morison writes that this is ‘…. an anachronism of the first order. It does not help the credibility of the apostles’ story. It embarrasses it. It provides an unnecessary and even incomprehensible stumbling-block to faith. It leaves the door wide open for the entry of the greatest suspicion.'”

    and even better…

    “Morison, despite being a ‘sceptic’, thinks nothing of inventing far-out explanations to cover up contradictions in the Gospels. For example, Mark says the women set out ‘when the sun was risen’, while John says it was ‘early, while it was yet dark.’ Morison writes that there is no problem because ‘women are specially prone to unforeseen delays when engaged in joint expeditions….’ ‘In any case’, Morison writes, ‘the unanimous witness of the first documents is that it was early…’ . So they only contradict themselves a bit, and if the Gospels say that women set off early, then the women set off early. After all, it’s in the Bible, so it must be true. ”

    Not to mention the is more than sufficient reason to believe that he was not a skeptic at all but believed a priori in the inerrency of the gospels.


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    Fendrel

    I am not avoiding the “evidence” that you have presented. I am leaving on a lengthy vacation in a couple of days and must write 4 posts for this blog and another 4 for a blog I edit for a medical group. So, let me say this. Do you really think that all of the theologians that follow Christianity do not have answers to your “evidence?” They do, tons. You are subselecting one or two Google articles that fit your narrative.

    When I went through my struggle with faith about 15+ years ago, I decided to ask a bunch of questions. Bart Ehrman and I both were challenged by the account of the woman caught in adultery not being in the original manuscripts. He went down the path of “happy agnosticism.” I, however, decided to go a different route. I knew that intelligent people had asked these questions and had found answers tthat made sense to them and so they continued in the faith. So, I read Ehrman, but I also read the great theologians. They have answers- tons of them.

    So, in a short answer to your question, I do believe the evidence. You continue to harp on the issue of rationality and that is the core of the atheist message. Me-“bright”; you “dumb.” You pick and choose amongst the evidence to “prove” your point. Intelligent people know that there is far more than the short “proof” you offered unless you wish to contend that ALL Christians throughout time are just a bunch of irrational fools, which, seems to be the narrative of the current athiest crowd.

    I spent years, long before the advent of the internet, reading books on how we got our canon, what the manuscript evidence shows, the historical development of doctrine, etc.I still remember sitting on a beach reading FF Bruce’s book on the history of the  Canon while everyone else was reading mysteries. 

    So, you retreat to the typical, ho-hum argument that I am irrational and a believer in slim to no evidence. If you believe that, so be it.  You are wrong about me but it will make you feel better about your own rationality. And remember, I did not question your rationality in this argument. You questioned mine.

    I believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, his death on the Cross for the forgiveness of my sins and His Resurrection. I enjoy the communion with the Holy Spirit and find my faith deepening through the years. There is joy in this faith and I have found meaning and life.  If you wish to denigrate my rationality and my experience, so be it. 

    I will not cede rationality to the camp of the atheists.

     


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    Serving in Japan

    Welcome! What a great place to be. i have had many friends from Japan through the years. Thank you for adding your thoughts to the discussion. It is a different way to approach the subject and I appreciated your perspective.


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    It’s never been about me bright and you dumb, although you’ve accused me of that at least twice now.

    If I say something about a piece of evidence that you feel is incorrect or illogical, please correct me, I do not believe that I have a corner on logical reasoning and certainly not on knowledge.

    The basic premise for almost all of our discussions is:

    “Does sufficient evidence exist to justify belief in the supernatural?”

    What constitutes “sufficient” is open to debate as is whether belief in the absence of whatever we define as sufficient should be considered “rational” or not.

    If you wish to pursue the question, and limit it to that initial question is up to you, as I am willing if you are…maybe even a separate blog entry just dedicated to that single question might be fun, that way those who are interested can join in.


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    Serving in Japan,

    I appreciate your comments and joining in the fray!

    I agree with you, almost 100%. I am not trying to say that empiricism is the only source of knowledge. All I am saying is that, from a scientific perspective there isn’t sufficient evidence to support the claims of Christianity and I think that Christians hurt their own case when they try.

    I will argue, till my dying breath it seems, that a strictly scientific approach cannot and does not provide sufficient cause for the beliefs of Christian theology…and that is ALL I am trying to say…no more than that!

    The Christians may in the end be right, or maybe Islam will be proven correct, or the Hindus…or some variation on those ideas…who knows, we’ll find out after we die, what I am arguing against is that those concepts do not have a basis in scientific fact or a scientific methodology for arriving at knowledge.

    I probably shouldn’t use words such as rationality because it has become a bit inflammatory. But I mean it only in the context of a scientific approach to knowledge, not any other.

    I hope that explains my position a bit more.

    BTW – I spent 25 years as a born again Christian before becoming an atheist, so I do feel like I have some understanding from both sides of the fence, and I certainly do NOT agree with everything that the atheist community says either, especially when it comes to criticizing the bible or theology as they rarely do their homework either.


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    Heaven: making a connection?

    Fendrel,

        Hello, 

           Draw a circle (circle A), place the word ‘Man’ within the circle you have drawn, add the words ‘reason,’ and ‘logic’. Then draw another circle (circle B), place the word ‘God’ in it.

    (For our present purposes, there is presently no direct connection between the two circles (spheres) A & B.)

    Circle A represents all of universal matter. For are present purposes, Circle B represents God and the place in which he himself dwells, all of heaven.

    Since no direct connection exist between sphere A, Matter, and sphere B, Heaven, what is required to make such a connection?

    In your dialog here at Wartburg, Heaven does not exist, albeit nothing exists outside of Matter. Therein lies the rub. Since the tools do not exist in the sphere A, to connect to sphere B, to the observer within sphere A, nothing else exists apart from what the tools at his present disposal (Reason & Logic) can discover.

    This is where ‘revelation’ serves as a connection sought for between the two spheres.

    This connection: “revelation” is outside of sphere A.

    Unless this outside connection “revelation” is made, no other tool exists from within Sphere A that would enable the occupant of said sphere to make such a connection if so desired. (Remember our example: nothing appears to exist outside sphere A.)

    Revelation is that very connection that links the two spheres.

    But since this connection exists outside sphere A, something or someone ‘outside’ sphere A must make the connection. ‘Revelation’ is such a connection.’Revelation’ is what the Bible is all about. It is a ‘recored’ of God making a connection with man.

    Just because one does not believe in the connection (revelation) doesn’t mean there isn’t one. It is just that one simply can not perceive it as such.

    So (for our present purposes) we now have a connection ‘revelation’ made between the two spheres A & B. But we have no apparent inclination of that connection, hence no idea of what may lie in sphere B, or that there is even a sphere B.

    For us today, the Bible makes that connection, and what is more, the bible examines the significance of that very connection, and our relationship to it, although we may presently be unknowingly ignorant of it’s existence.

    Remember, a fish does not know it lives in water. To it, that is it’s world. A frog, however learns that the little pond it was born in is not all there is to it. The frog is free by it’s nature to explore the world outside the pond from which it came.

    In the same token, the Bible gives a link outside our little pond, to a much bigger world “outside”. Unless you are willing to jump out of the pond, as it were, you have what could be considered, a limited existence. Only you don’t know it. (perceive it)

    That is how it is with us, the mortician removes the blood from our veins and sticks our remains in a refrigerated holding tray awaiting disposition. And that’s it.

    Or is it?

    That is where the Bible comes in. It tells us of the ‘world’ beyond this one. Is there such a place? Yes, the mortician’s tray does not have to be end, it only seems that way.

    Consider Carefully?

    You Decide.

    Blessings!

    IronClad


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    Dee, you ought to change the title of this thread to “The Fendrel Show” or “Fendrel vs All Comers”. Reminds me way too much of how Young Earth Creationist Uber Alles types took over a Yahoogroup I was on, turned it into a never-ending Celebrity Deathmatch (Us & God vs Darwin) until the never-ending flamewar drove all the rest of us off the list. With Fendrel in the role of the YEC.

    Especially because Fendrel said he’d “spent 25 years as a born again Christian”. This might be the same dynamic you see in Furry Fandom with Pathological Furry Haters. Something (usually a burn job or serious disillusionment) sparks an allergic reaction and they flip one-eighty, from Total Blind Adoration to Total Blind Hatred of the exact same intensity. Yet they can never let go of the subject, they maintain the intensity just as if they remained a fanboy instead of a hater.

    IronClad, have you been taking writing lessons from Sopwith?


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    Headless,

    you make some good points, yes the intensity is still there, I think that’s just my nature, regardless of the topic, but I do think that overall religion is harmful to society and individuals, so don’t I have a responsibility to speak out, especially to those I consider friends?

    Regarding the 180 degree turn…it is not quite that, although I think Saul/Paul is a better example. I have no hatred of God or those who believe in the supernatural, and it certainly wasn’t an overnight or road to Damascus experience…it was a slow process over a long period of time and at any given point I was probably a bit on both sides at the same time.


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    Dee and all,

    I’m really behind reading the latest posts and no time to read all the comments here. I’ve been creating costumes for my husband, myself, and four kids and going to parties, festivals, trunk or treats, and trick-or-treating. We partied for days! 🙂

    I just wanted to say a big thank you to Dee for this great post! For many years in my evangelical circles, it was fashionable to hate Halloween, refuse to be a part of this evil ritual, accuse those who celebrated Halloween as cooperating with Satan, look down on alternatives such as fall festivals, and generally be grouchy and grumpy the whole month of October.

    Over the past couple of years, churches in my area seem to have loosened up a bit. There are more alternatives (fall festivals, harvest parties, trunk or treats). It’s the same thing, same premise, same time; they just don’t call it “Halloween”.

    I’ve NEVER abandoned Halloween and never will. It’s loads of fun. My husband, kids, and I love coming up with individual costumes or family-themed costumes. One year, I was Cruella De Vil and my husband and four kids were Dalmatians. Another year, we were Scooby Doo and the Gang. This year, everyone chose something unrelated, and we all had fun and looked awesome. As someone else said, God knows our hearts and knows this is simply a way to dress up, admire and appreciate the various costumes and creativity, spend time with family and friends, carve pumpkins, drink cider, show hospitality, and eat candy.

    As for teens… I see a lot of teens still dressing up and trick-or-treating in our area. I think it’s magnificent. Little kids shouldn’t have all the fun. Teens are still kids. Many of them still like to dress up and participate in the holiday.

    Every Halloween, I think of my childhood friend who has become a Calvinista. Years ago, she said she hated Halloween and couldn’t wait until it was over every year. She said she couldn’t understand how people, especially Christians, could enjoy Halloween. Every year, I feel sorry for her and her child. How could anyone NOT love Halloween? 🙂


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    Wendy,

    I agree both as a Christian (former) and as an atheist (now) .. Halloween rocks! It’s right up there with “Talk Like a Pirate Day!”


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    Fendrel

    It is precisely about irrational  and rational. People who behave irrationally are sent to psychiatrists and put on medication.  If you can “prove” that Christianity is irrational then you can dismiss it and pat us on the head and say “There, there-it will be alright, poor things.”

    I have already made my point that people can look at a body of evidence and disagree as to the conclusion. It happens in court all the time. I believe that the manuscript evidence and the testimony of the eyewitnesses, coupled with the unparalleled growth or a nascent church, is enough evidence for me to rationally accept the faith.

    The two of us could reprint entire books on the evidence for and against the manuscripts, scrolls, testimonies, etc. It could get mighty boring playing tit for tat. I have read enough to say that the Christian faith, both from an evidentiary perspective and from a narratve perspective give me the best explanation that I can see for both the physical world and the problem of sin. I believe that my perspective is rational and fits in with  a gazillion other people throughout the ages. 

    You will not be able to prove me mad or irrational even though Dawkins often pats himself on the back that he has. It must feel good for him to know just how more evolved he is than us.

     


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    Fendrel, The 1978 Nobel Physics Prize (Penzias & Wilson) was for experimental evidence, the 3 degree Kelvin background cosmic microwave radiation, confirming the Big Bang, the birth of our universe. The 2011 Nobel Physics (Perlmutter, Schmidt & Riess) was for astronomical observations indicating the expansion of universe is accelerating, not decelerating. Our universe had a moment of creation but does not appear to have a built-in end. There is no support of an infinite repeating cycle of universe creations and deaths. The universe is a unique event. This suggests there may be something “outside” of the observable universe. Rationally what might it be?


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    A bit of perspective might be good here. Compared with classical writings, the documentary evidence supporting the contents of the NT canon is overwhelming when compared to the evidence supporting classical Greek texts, for example. More than 5700 Greek NT manuscripts are still in existence. Don’t be put off by the word “fragment” – many of them are quite substantial. Then add the Latin, Coptic’ Syriac, Armenian, Georgian, Gothic and Armenian texts. The figure jumps to over 20000 documents. Thrown them all away you could still produce almost the entire NT from quotations in tracts, sermons and commentaries, written by the ancient teachers of the church. In fact the church fathers quote the NT over a million times, as far as we know. The average Classical Greek or Latin author can boast maybe an average of 20 manuscripts. Scientifically speaking, the NT is 1000 times more reliable.
    What about time span. It’s generally agreed that between 10 and 15 manuscripts were written within a hundred years of the events they describe. Within 200 years there are over twenty such documents. 99 documents written before AD400 still exist. There are no copies of classical authors for more than half a millennium. So the gap between the originals and the manuscripts is quite short. These facts come courtesy of the ESV and you can find charts there too citing other authors and so on.

    What you really have to decide is whether or not you believe what the records say. Paul acknowledged Peter’s writings and Peter acknowledged Paul’s. the Lord Jesus testified to the authenticity of the OT.

    Which leaves the resurrection. The two Marys believed the angel when he said He is not here for He has risen as He said. Come and see the place where He lay. The resurrection was the central plank of the Gospel message and Peter used it to confront the people and the rulers.You crucified him, you killed him but God raised him up. That is the basis of our forgiveness, our fruitfulness and our hope. It is a bit of an old chestnut to say if no one was actually there to see it then it didn’t happen. God the Father and God the Spirit were there. The apostles were there and were appointed to their task precisely because they had been with Jesus and could testify to all that He said and did. They saw Him after the resurrection. How do we know this? They told people, They wrote it down and some of their listeners wrote it down. And so the good news spread. Where’s the proof? Go back to the thousands of manuscripts.
    Why is it thought incredible by any of you that God raises the dead?


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    Faith is in the Air: What is the means by which differences can be resolved?

    Headless Unicorn Guy,

        Hello,

           The following questions have merit:

    What is the relationship between “the exercise of faith”, and “rationality”? and: What is one’s faith based on?

    Also, the following are a great body of ‘witnesses’. Is Fendrel implying that they might have been mistaken?

    The uncials: א and B of the fourth century, A, C, D of the fifth, E, L, V of the eighth, F, H, K, M, Γ, Δ, Λ, Π, Χ of the ninth, and G, S, U of the tenth, or twenty in all, besides fragments I, N, Q, T of the 5th, I, N, P, R, T, Z, Θ of the 6th, T, Θ of the 7th and O, W, Y of the 8th century. 

    The versions:  a.d. 150, Peschito and Old Latin; a.d. ; a.d. 200, Curetonian-Syriac, Coptic, Sahidic ; a.d. 350, Gothic, 400 Vulgate ; a.d. 450, Armenian, Jerusalem Syriac; a.d. 500, Philox. Syriac; 550 Aethiopic.

    The Fathers: a.d. 100. Clemens, Ignatius; 150. Justin ; 175. Irenæus, Theophilus, Athenagoras; 200. Tertullian; 225. Clemens, Hippolytus, Africanus; 250. Cyprian; Origen, Dionysius; 300. Arnobius, Lactantius; 325. Eusebius, Juvencus; 350. Athanasius, Ephrem, Hilary; 375. Basil, Cyril-Jer., the Gregories, Caesarius, Optatus; 400. Ambrose, August., Chrysostom, Jerome, Gaudentius, Epiphanius, Victor of Antioch, Isidore, Prudentius; 425. Prosper, Cyril Alex; 450. Leo, Salvian, Theodoret; 500. Fulgentius, Gelasius, Caesarius of Arles; 600. Gregory of Rome.

    Just had this in my head this morning:

    “So, let us not be blind to our differences – – but let us also direct attention to our common interests and to means by which those differences can be resolved. And if we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children’s future. And we are all mortal.”

    Gleaning much of what has been said here, Sopy appears to cherish Jesus very much, and in this endeavor, this writer wholly concurs.

     Lord, how love I your word, it is my meditation all day long, and because of it I have refrained my feet from every evil way!

    Cheers!

    IronClad


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    Gavin,

    Good information…my only comment is the statement “Scientifically speaking, the NT is 1000 times more reliable”

    The manuscripts may be 1000 times more plentiful, and certainly because there are so many is seems reasonable to say that we have an accurate representation of what they say… but I would still say that quantity, or in this case, repetition, does not mean that the contents of they say are accurate, only that we have an accurate representation of what they said…there’s a difference.

    While we do take at face value the historicity of many things from classical literature, they are not supernatural things or things which run contrary to what we know about the world, so the burden of proof required is less.

    A simple example might be that my neighbor tells me that their cousin has a black cat that they dressed in a witches costume for Halloween..I accept that at face value (no further proofs required…it’s reasonable). Now if that same neighbor added that this cat could self levitate and hover in mid air…I’m afraid I would not accept their testimony because the claim is outrageous when compared to what I know about the laws of physics and cats..I would demand much more evidence than just their word…and it would be reasonable to do so, wouldn’t you agree?


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    Fendrel,

    Oh, we love Talk Like a Pirate Day too! I was asked to sub at my son’s preschool that day. I scrambled around that morning looking for my pirate attire and enjoyed talking like a pirate all day. 🙂


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    Fendrel
    Methinks we’re playing with words:-)
    Regards
    Gavin


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    Fendrel
    I think the most you can say is that you don’t accept that the resurrection happened, not that it didn’t happen. A miracle after all is something that is out of the ordinary, supernatural. What we have is the testimony and record of ordinary people who saw something extraordinary happen and who recorded it. To the law and to the testimony.
    Regards
    Gavin


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    Gavin

    I liked this comment. ” I think the most you can say is that you don’t accept that the resurrection happened, not that it didn’t happen.”  It is a goal of many of the neo-atheists to get Christians to capitulate in the area of rational thinking-you know “blind faith.” Once that occurs, they have the upper hand. The Christian becomes an object to be pitied, kind of like a guy who thinks he is Napoleon and is hospitalized in a lock down unit. “Poor bloke, his mum didn’t give him the right vitamins.”

    I claim that there is evidence for the supernatural event. It is rational to believe such evidence. However, there is free will and no one is forced to accept the evidence. I refuse to cede rationality in the faith argument.


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    Dee- I am on a low carb diet as well. But cheated when I saw the tea time snacks at The Fearrington. I have to go back there. It was the best place I ever stayed at. I’m trying to convince my traveling companion to take me back soon. You can meet us there for tea time. Plus we need to see the goats!

    I hope Tulip did not create too much of a ruckus in her time outs. I don’t think she likes to be alone. Where do they sleep at night?


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    Gavin,

    Well yes..of course that’s all I can say…it is exactly the same thing that I can say about invisible cows orbiting Mars…the most I can say is that I don’t believe it, not that it doesn’t happen…I’m not sure that I get your point.

    So what you are saying, is that you consider the evidence to of such magnitude that it is sufficient to overrule everything you have seen and learned in your personal life regarding the finality of death, to such an extent that it would be irrational for a person NOT to accept the truth of life after death?

    Is that a fair statement?


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    The Belted Cow

    I would love to join you for tea. That is one awesome palce. Also, there is a hotel in Cary called The Umstead which serves a high tea with one tea poured over a flower which opens while you drink it. So, we can do two teas with your friend.

    They sleep in their beds in the dining room. My husband thinks they snore too loud for him to sleep. When he is out of town, the slepp with me! Lilly knows. As soon as Bill leaves the house, she walks upstairs and waits to be liften onto the bed.

    I hope they will do OK with my 11 days away. They get to stay home with friends and family staying at the house. 

     


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    RE: Wendy on Mon Nov 05, 2012 at 12:49 PM,

    Hoorah for you Wendy! You have fun and good times with your family, these are the most precious times you will ever have. The joy in the kids’ faces and the joy in your own heart too. Don’t worry much about the dire pronouncements of pious nincompoops. It wasn’t so long ago that they also denounced Ben Franklin’s lightning rods as interfering with the Almighty’s sovereign punishment of the wicked.


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    Whoa! I didn’t think my comment on the rational vs. the irrational would generate so much debate on the terms. I meant it strictly in the context of rational vs. irrational numbers, and how the irrationals never terminate or repeat with their decimal expansions. And so it goes with my faith, which will remain irrational in this limited context and meaning.


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    Muff – iirc, umbrellas and the earliest bicycles (the ones with the iron frames) generated a lot of disapproving comments from people who thought that if God meant us to go out in the rain and stay dry… (etc. etc. etc.).

    Fendrel – you are imaginative! The “cows orbiting Mars” bit made me think of Pigs in Space (Muppet Show).

    Dee – heeheehee about the dogs coming up to sleep with you. 😉


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    Dear Fendren
    Basically yes because God is not a man that he should lie and I have no reason to doubt Him. On the other hand I have every reason to believe Him. I know pots like to look in the mirror and admire their own handiwork but the truth is the potter made them.
    Best wishes Gavin


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    Dee wrote:

    “…I was going to suggest to him that he attempt to elucidate why he chose Christianity as opposed to another faith. My guess is that the narrative of Christianity has some appeal to him and that he is not as irrational as he would claim…”

    You’re absolutely right. The narrative does have appeal to me. But it’s an appeal not based on fear of hell or theological abstractions concocted by the medievals (both Catholic & Protestant). In fact, I’d just as soon pen my own declaration of independence from them all.

    The reason I have chosen Jesus of Nazareth (or did he choose me?) is because of the visceral and gut appeal he exerts on me. We’ve all heard pious churchmen declare that we can’t trust our feelings because they’re hopelessly corrupt. And to that I have a one word reply: Horseshit. It was gut feeling that convinced me that the stories of Jesus are true. A resonance that is true for me because I hold the Judaic view (pre-Hellenist) that body & soul are an integral unit and not bifurcated entities. I would not want to live in a shell that hates itself and its feelings and pines to get out.

    Even aside from the Biblical record, and when I picture his mother Mary teaching him little songs on feast days and seeing him clap his little hands, the image will bring me to tears every time. And as Blake wondered, did Joseph of Arimathea take him to Britannia on business during his teen years? The time he grilled fish and ate with his friends after he rose from the dead is for me the best news I’ve ever heard.


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    Muff – you know, the mere fact that Jesus didn’t run around doing Amazing Feats (like a comic-book superbeing) after his resurrection is, for me, one of the most compelling reasons to believe that he is who he said he is – that, and, of course, what he taught and how he lived.

    he was humble in the true sense of the word, which is a whole universe and then some away from the way MD views humility.

    Also, while I lean toward your view 9the body is good), I don’t think belief in a soul of some kind has to be the kind of matter = bad, spiritual = good view that many people believe in.


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    Gavin,

    Not to beat a dead horse (tool late for that I guess), but isn’t that a bit circular…I believe in God because He wouldn’t lie to me


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    Dee- count me in for tea at The Umstead. And my traveling companion too. She’s always up for an adventure.

    Our dog always slept in our beds and under the covers. Each bed in the house had its own carpeted doggie stairs. Our dog broke her leg clean in half at our house in Greensboro and so she had a metal plate and screws that the vet said had to stay in for the rest of her life. Her legs were very fragile and jumping off beds was not a good idea. Plus she was extremely spoiled and pampered.

    Have a good time on your family vacation. I’m sure the pugs will be fine. We all need a break from each other once in a while, even if we are a dog.


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    Muff

    That comment has to be one of the most  beautiful I have ever read. Talk about tears coming to one’s eyes!  If anything proves why i love to hear from you, this comment does. You are awesome! Thank you for blessing my night.

    “Even aside from the Biblical record, and when I picture his mother Mary teaching him little songs on feast days and seeing him clap his little hands, the image will bring me to tears every time. And as Blake wondered, did Joseph of Arimathea take him to Britannia on business during his teen years? The time he grilled fish and ate with his friends after he rose from the dead is for me the best news I’ve ever heard.”


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    The Belted Cow

    If Bill didn’t mind snoring, i woud look into those stairs!


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    Muff, Numo — it’s like cool water to actually talk about Jesus. Even more so in his humanity.

    I’m sure Paul was a nice guy, and had some good things to say. But I’ve long overdosed on him.


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    elastigirl – yes, very refreshing!


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    Dear Fendrel
    I suppose it is but that’s how I see it. Then again, maybe not a circular argument because God was there in the beginning. Everything we see and experience is a form of revelation. The heavens declare his magnificence, his word declares his purpose and our place in it and his son shows us the way to real fulfilment, achieving ultimately all that He has wanted for us.
    I’m a bit like the blind man Jesus cured. All I know is once I was blind, now I can see. How did it happen? Are you telling me that as teachers of the law you don’t know how it happened,who he is or where he got his power from? Why are you asking me so many questions? Do you also want to become one of his disciples?
    I hope you keep looking.
    Best wishes
    Gavin


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    Gavin,

    Thanks…appreciate your answer. Whether God was there in the beginning doesn’t make the argument non-circular though 🙂

    Elastigirl –

    You might like this article (excerpt from a book) very interesting even if you’ve “overdosed” on Paul…


    http://mainereason.blogspot.com/2011/02/problem-of-paul-excerpt-from-mythmaker.html


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    Elastigirl

    I have a pastor who says that Paul’s purpose is to point back to Jesus and the Cross. When I take that approach with his writings, I see him less as a rule maker and more as a Jesus illuminator. Paul always talked up the Cross and the grace inherent in that act. If that is his emphasis, and I am convinced that it is, we can take his writings and look at then through the lens of grace which gives a different spin on things.

    Paul did not intend to be an apologist for today’s authoritarian pastors. In fact, he is very weak in that area. That is why people like Mark Driscoll returned to the OT to get his silly concept of king, judge, priest and Chuck Smith returned to the OT to get his ridiculous Moses model.

     


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    “NOGOD: Doubt Induced Structural Failure?”

    What?

    What do you do when “reason” and “logic” fail?

    hmmm…

    What color is your parachute?

    there is a way that seems right to a man, but that way leeds unto death…

    yet…

    on the third day Jesus rose from the dead according to the scriptures!

    yet…

    In the last days perilous times shall come?

    for 
         men 
                   shall 
                               be 
    lovers of themselves, and not God?

    are we there yet?

    (sadface)

    Come unto me all who are heavy burdened, and I shall give you comfort.    Jesus 

    Sopy

    ___
    This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come…

    For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away…

    For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth!

    Watch! for them… 🙂

    they are not selling vacuums or delivering milk… 


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    Sop,

    Where do you find those good drugs! 🙂


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    “Blind Faith: Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence?”

    Fendrel,

    Justifying the means to an end, have you found the ultimate excuse: you’ve painted your own?

    Sorry fella, you must excuse us but Jesus has painted his own too!

    We like his bedder!

    “Send in da Clowns?”

    -snicker-

    My heart is fixed! I have inclined mine heart Lord Jesus, to perform thy statutes…

    “Kick the Tires, Light the Fires!”

    Yeeeeehaaaaaaaaa!

    Sopy


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    Off topic –

    OMG (pardon the expression) you have GOT to watch this video…it is soooo adorable.

    Dee,

    Maybe this is what happened to Mark Driscoll and others when they were kids.

    (it is subtitled in Spanish, but spoken in english)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jgTaaD_a7c


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    Muff Potter,

    Thank you! I always appreciate your wisdom and perspective.


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    Hi, Dee.

    I remember quite a few years ago, I had some NT frustration in that I found Paul’s writings so much more interesting and fuller of content than the descriptions of and words ascribed to Jesus. It bothered me. I knew (& still know) that Jesus Christ was/is ultra-amazing incarnate. But he himself was sidelined.

    It seemed that I, just like christian culture surrounding me, was assigning Jesus Christ the job of posterboy for our religion — like Ronald McDonald for McDonalds. Willliam Shatner for Priceline. That actor with the wonderful low gravitas voice who is the face and voice of Allstate Insurance.

    And after acknowledging Jesus’ image and name in all the christian regalia (whether depicted alive or dying or alive), we seem to say, “Ok, now let’s get on to what really matters — Paul.” And our bible’s automatically open up to Romans,Corinthians, Ephesians, etc. because of the deep creases there. And we spend all our focus meditating on and deciperhing and puzzling together all Paul’s wordiness. Because there’s so much content, so much for the exercise of the mind [enough to go around to justify all kinds of salaried positions! but that’s another topic]…..

    ….but all that intelligent wordiness keeps us fixed and fixated on itself. Like being pulled down into text itself & getting caught up in some vortex of information. And I found that my conclusions and ideas were getting fancier and more convoluted all the time, to the point that my practice of my beliefs became so complicated in so many realms of life — so many filters of shoulds, shouldn’ts, that I imposed on myself and how to do life. (i was really only reflecting back the input i was getting from christian culture)

    To wrap this up, I desire to focus on the fact that Jesus is alive & breathing and moving around and talking and has a personality unique to him and is as personally knowable as anyone. Ultra-amazing incarnate, but equally so a human being always ready to engage with.

    hmmm… i don’t think i quite hit the mark in getting my thoughts out here….


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    Muff Potter,

    I also loved your comment at 7:24 PM. I really must start copying and pasting comments I like on here to my journal – the ones that pull me back in from my doubts and make me want to worship a good God.


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    elastigirl,

    I love your writing style and how you express your thoughts. Very interesting thoughts on Jesus as posterboy. Or maybe the mascot at a football game, on the sidelines. While obsessed fans cheer on Paul the quarterback and get annoyed if Jesus the mascot bumps into them or blocks their view. (Pardon the sports analogy, I actually can’t stand football lol).


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    Fendrel,
    That vid was hilarious! Somebody ought to send it to Voddie Baucham and ask him how 1 Peter 3:7 can also be true.


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    Hi, Looking for You.

    Thank you very much. I feel complimented.

    Yes, like the mascot at a football game. People cheer enthusiastically when he/she comes out before the game starts, but then people want him/her out of the way for a better view of where the action is.

    What you said.


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    Fendrel, that video was hysterical! Don’t tell me women are too emotional! lol


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    Muff, Victorious –

    Thanks! That little boy is going to have some serious commitment issues later in life I suspect…and woe to the man who marries that little girl!

    🙂