So this is the basis of the lawsuit

The pastors did not handle the trauma of the victims.
They protected the perpetrator
They kept the incidents quiet and did not alert others in the church.
They used intimidation to enforce the silence.
It appears they were more concerned about the reputation and the finances of the church.
They portrayed the civil authorities as untrustworthy.
They portrayed the pastors as being trustworthy to handle the situation.
They emphasized homeschooling and created fear and distrust of secular authorities.
The pastors had little training for their position, either in seminary or otherwise.
The parents were led to believe that they were the only ones that that had this happen due to the culture of silence.
The various blogs helped people to find one another and realize that they were not the only ones who experienced these events these events.
These incidents fall well within the statute of limitations.
More people are coming forward so the class action suit is the most logical way to help those coming forward.
She emphasized the story of a 3 year old child who was made to meet with and forgive her abuser. The poor child was so afraid she hid under a chair. (Dee is throwing things and screaming in horror at this point).
The son of a high level church official was involved in some form of predation.

Of all the hoopla describing CJ, (humble, wise, brilliant, charismatic, committed to scripture, great preacher, great illustrator, passionate) the one virtue sadly missing was compassionate.

The video was a perfect example of overkill.

We’ve also had this discussion before about the superiority of the secular therapist versus untrained pastors.

“The state board of medicine Friday accepted a Harvard psychiatrist’s unconditional resignation of her medical license, ending a six month inquiry that included charges of bizarre psychiatric techniques and doctor-patient sex.
As a result of the resignation, Dr. Margaret Bean-Bayog ’65, an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, will no longer be permitted to practice medicine in the United States. She may, however, continue to work as a psychotherapist.”

[ There are many, many other stories of professional misconduct by those in the mental health field. You can google them.]

“we were the problems” This is typical in the narcissists and the minions world. They don’t take responsibility for anything.

“Every Ork In Mordor Is Gonna Hear dis Racket?”

HowDeeYaAll,

“Ceege” couldn’t take TWW Hobbit food…

He’d rather eat crow?

(grin)

hahahahahahaha

S“㋡”py
___
Go! SusanB, Go!; go spread the words too! ♥♫♥

Seriously, Jimmy? Are you for real or are you joking? They got sued for not caring enough to take action to protect children. What on earth is so hard to understand about that?

Deb and Dee, I was struck by the accusation of “character assassination” you had to endure, merely for suggesting that action by Mr. Mahaney to reach out to victims and their families who were church members would help them. In a way, both character and actions will be on trial in this lawsuit, so true wisdom will eventually be borne out by its fruit …

Just this morning, a friend of mine posted a picture of a window sign on Facebook. The sign said: “Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you.”

To which I would add, “… and it is also shown by how you protect and assist those who are not able to do a thing themselves.”

And here’s a quote on a related note from a scholar of literary fame who is known as an advocate and activist in confronting evil: “If you want to know what a man’s like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.” ~ Sirius Black, *Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire* (page 525)

We’re already seeing people’s character demonstrated, whether in the creation of a class action lawsuit after stymied attempts to find justice within the non-profit’s system, or in responses (or lack thereof) to the lawsuit. And, as best I understand the situation, since this is a civil lawsuit and not a criminal trial, the jury will be required by law to determine the status of actions involved and the sources of damage, based on the preponderance of evidence. So, that may also be taken as a thermometer of character, as since action emerges from character. And then, shall we not then also see people’s “deep character” versus any persona, as demonstrated by who shows “biblical” adherence to Romans 13:1-7 and the verdicts legally rendered?

Character, reputation, integrity – all these will be huge issues here. This lawsuit and the reasons for it give us an opportunity to become a “learning community” to take in lessons for our own selves and our organizations. We should be watching, and we will be … Thanks for facilitating some of that learning.

Jimmy —
Discouraging reporting and interfering with criminal investigations is also alleged and is a serious crime.

Jimmy, you need to apply for a job with SGM.

Just reading around I am seeing a bit ;ush to rehab Josh Harris. Did anyone see the news report where Josh was interviewed? It is getting more confusing. He was basically defending “SGM” if you think about it.

Harris, was mentored by Mahaney. Yes, he sorta kinda stood up to him in a way. But remember, Josh has been patriarchal from day one. He was raised in a patriarchal family that made their living off the “Christian” market niche. This is all he knows: Protect the organization and income. He is a legalist in his own right with his ridiculous teaching on “courting”. He also went along with CJ for years.

Right now is his big leadership moment. He blew it. He covered for them.

Jimmy,You are definitely cynical. You cannot even find compassion for a molested 3 year old girl.

“Tar n’ Feather’d?”

HowDee YaAll,

Q: “How long will it take for The Gospel Coalition/Al Mohler/Ligon Duncan/Mark Dever to mention the SGM/Mahaney ‘situation?’ ”

A: As long as it takes ta getz da tar off their faces, eh?

-snicker-

Dee, the lonely “goatherd” isn’t alone any more, huh?

(grin)

S“㋡”py

Jimmy,

By defending those who have allowed children to be abused you are contributing to the poor responses of those in authority who have failed to protect those children.

BTW, I forgot to point out that the imposed silence was to “protect the image of God”….

Watching the testimonial to Mahaney reminds me that discernment is not necessarily related to intelligence or other attributes or gifts. The very gifted pastor of a congregation I once attended did not see the way one of the elders undermined it year after year, despite many people informing him of it. The pastor is now gone, the elder is just an ordinary member, and the congregation has never regained health. I was condemned for blatantly bringing the problem to the fore. Of course, I haven’t attended for years since then.

I know nothing of the other guy, but Mohler is no dummy. And yet he cannot (will not?) see what is right before his eyes. This is a big problem in the church today – not being able to see the negative aspects of a “leader.” I think it goes beyond the instructions not to criticize – instructions that, of course, issued from leaders in my former congregation. People so want things to “run smoothly,” and for people to “be nice,” that they blind themselves to unpleasant realities.

Concerning Jimmy: I suggest that the troll no longer be fed. It’s obvious that he loves the attention. Ignore him and eventually he’ll go away. Assuming, dee and deb, that you don’t ban him for ignoring your prime directive.

Ok, I’m sick after nearly 2 minutes. Do the accolades really go on for nearly 10 minutes? — Julie Anne

At least it’s only ten minutes. Comrade Stalin and Baba Saddam required their accolades to last over an hour, until clapping hands were bloody from the constant applause and throats were hoarse whispers from screaming constant praises. All watched and monitored by Enforcers who would drag out and disappear anyone who stopped or otherwise faltered in enthusiastic devotion for the Great Leader.

3 of the last 4 posts are about THE LAWSUIT.

I am discussing THE LAWSUIT.

And because I am posting my thoughts on THE LAWSUIT I’m accused of being a heartless, non-compassionate person?

The big Hoop-dee-doo is about THE LAWSUIT. I have some serious questions about it.

[p.s. – For those of you who have criticized SGM pastors in the past for consulting with lawyers; NOW you know why. Potential LAWSUITS ]

“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.” -Romans 13:3-4

@ Hester: inspired choice of verse there 🙂

I seems to me that Jimmy has more than proven that he is not interested in caring for the victims and he persists in disregarding the “prime directive” of this blog.

Jimmy is an abettor of the abuse that the victims have suffered, and an encourager to those who cover up abuse. Were this blog about terrorism or international relations, he could be prosecuted for a crime for that kind of support of the enemies of justice.

I did NOT defend Sandusky. I DID defend the legal process. Big difference. Sandusky has received his just reward.

Has anyone read the comments at the end of this article:

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/10/sex-scandal-church-turned-deaf-ear-to-alleged-abuse-81189.html

Yet another SGM church is called out for a cover up (read all the comments) and this is a church not mentioned in the law suit (I know the poster has been in touch with Susan, so I am sure this one will be added to the case. CJ’s Joseph Goebbels AKA Steve Shank is implicated in the cover up_

I agree with JeffB. Jimmy is a troll, and we shouldn’t feed him. Calling him out doesn’t work. He sits behind his computer and waits for Dee and Deb’s next post so he can be the first to say something provocative. He relishes the anger, frustration, and exasperation other commenters feel toward him and thoroughly enjoys the arguments that ensue. He can’t risk being banned, so he walks the edge. He says everything he can possibly get away with to elicit responses of anger, frustration, and hurt. Then he backs off, plays coy, and pretends that isn’t what he meant at all. At best, this is a big game to Jimmy. But I wonder if there’s something more.

My husband is just like Jimmy.

Here’s what happened. When he was pre-school he was exposed to hard core porn (if not sodomized) and was corncobbing himself in the barn. His daddy observed this behavior and worried his boy might be a homosexual, so he made sure to expose him to porn frequently. By age 12, my husband’s walls were plastered with centerfolds. And just to be sure he would “love women”, his daddy gave him a hands on demonstration on a 12 year old female neighbor.

To this day, my husband defends his daddy and won’t admit that molesting a 12 year old was wrong/criminal. My husband says “she giggled and must have liked it” “my dad was afraid I would be a homo and this was his way of showing LOVE to me”.

My husband is also a patriarchal fundamentalist Christian, and rabidly anti-psychology and counseling. I think it is because he fears psychology. Psychology might bring some light into the darkness.

All that to say, I think there is more going on with Jimmy than meets the eye… If my husband posted on blogs, I would suspect that his screen name was “Jimmy”

@ Beaker:

When I looked up the verse I noticed it was right next to Jimmy’s… At the end of Romans 12 Paul tells Christians not to avenge themselves and says that God will execute vengeance. Then at the beginning of Romans 13, he says that the authorities are God’s ministers to execute vengeance (read: justice) on evildoers. Maybe that means we’re supposed to let the authorities take care of it instead of carrying out vigilante justice? And since is a lawsuit is essentially an appeal to the courts to examine a situation and decree whether or not “vengeance” should be meted out and if so, to whom…that would make this kind of lawsuit completely Biblical. (Note: this is different than the petty vindictive lawsuits Paul mentions elsewhere, which are personal disputes blown all out of proportion and don’t involve actual C-R-I-M-E-S.)

BTW, sadly I do have to agree that the autism comment went a little too far… The spectrum is very large and not everyone on it is emotionally disconnected to that degree. I myself may be on the spectrum and don’t have a huge problem with this. I’m not offended at what you said, I just wanted to point this out.

incognito: My heart goes out to you – – – truly. That is a difficult place to be. I’ve seen the pattern you’ve described before and it’s very sad. ~ja

Jimmy has mentioned a wife.
Pray for her
and for the children (if they have any)

The lack of empathy and the attitude of entitlement to do ANYTHING with no accountability or consequences… brrrrrrrrr

Enormous apologies if I offended anyone with my autistic spectrum comment. I work with a fair few YP with autism & aspergers, & to be honest, Jimmy’s obsession with legal form over personal welfare, his inability to empathise emotionally & his repetitive pointing out of the same points over & over have often rung this bell for me. Either that, or something worse.

“3 of the last 4 posts are about THE LAWSUIT.
I am discussing THE LAWSUIT.
And because I am posting my thoughts on THE LAWSUIT I’m accused of being a heartless, non-compassionate person?
The big Hoop-dee-doo is about THE LAWSUIT. I have some serious questions about it.
[p.s. – For those of you who have criticized SGM pastors in the past for consulting with lawyers; NOW you know why. Potential LAWSUITS]” Jimmy

Well, yes, I see. They were worried about who? Oh, themselves. Their money. Their reputations. Their livelihood. The image of God??

Read the Beatitudes, Jimmy. If SGM had been doing what God asks ALL of us to do, they wouldn’t be in the mess they are in right now. They should have been hiring lawyers and “trained” counselors for their members who were hurt, not for themselves. And they should have spoken in court for victims, not perpetrators, as it appears they did. And they should not have covered anything up. I pray all the truth is revealed – even if I don’t like it!

BTW I should also add that I know of no country where sexual activity between a minor and an adult is not punishable under the law. The fact that some individuals flout the law does not mean it does not stand. I meant “misconduct hearings” in relation with other acts of sexual predation (such as health professionals or ministers abusing their position), not which children, which is far more serious.

Beakerj,

I, for one, think that the autistic/asperger suggestion was merciful toward Jimmy. A counselor suggested “Asperger Syndrome” as a possible diagnosis for my husband. Husband laughs and denies it but researching it certainly helped me to cope with his entrenched empathic failure.

Ordinary cognitive therapy does not work with Asperger patients. Only behavior modification works. ie they will NEVER be able to empathize with someone they have hurt. To extinguish unacceptable behavior, they must experience consequences painful to them (as well as guidelines and positive reinforcement for “good behavior”)

Incognito – I suppose, with people who come across as Jimmy does, I’d rather believe he is incapable somehow of appreciating the emotional component of these situations, rather than he is just choosing not to see it. I often wonder it in the case of those systematic theology obsessed calvinistas who just ‘cannot’ see why people have a hard time emotionally with what their doctrines say about the character of God. People are drawn to different things for reasons.

I can see why counsellors suggest it in cases of ‘entrenched empathic failure’….I have worked with teenagers who also seem only to respond to negative personal consequences, as their emotional identification with others is very impaired. It’s the same with my MIL who is undoubtedly suffering from a personality disorder.

I am really sorry for you having to deal with this – I’m sorry for him too, with his background, so awful. I wish all good things for you.

Wouldn't some of the same symptoms be narcissism? As in no empathy and really no basic moral code except what looks good for those watching at the time they want to impress. I personally think narcissists are very dangerous to the mental health of the person who has to live or work with them.

Jimmy,
The lawsuit provides accountability and negative consequences for bad behavior. Without such measures, someone with empathic failure will continue to carelessly inflict pain on others.

Nicely stated, incognito.

Thank you to Dee, Deb and every commenter who has shown such amazing support for these victims. As a victim myself, whose life was ruined by teenage boys at a very young age, I can relate in many ways…and if I personally have felt so loved, supported and validated by God through your comments, then how many more who visit this site are also feeling the love?

Incognito, Can I recommend a book for you? It has helped so many married to such people.

http://www.amazon.com/Promise-Despise-Abuse-Until-Death/dp/0615406564

Anon 1, Sat Oct 20 3:17pm I completely agree.

Thank you for deleting Jimmy. Please ban him. IMO he is an effective proxy for the abusers, and he may be re-traumatizing some who turn to this blog for support.

Eagle,

    Hello,

       Many have been deeply concerned about SGM, reportedly the number of victims, the specific reported cases of abuse, and the number of allegations about this type of abuse for some time now. Are you saying that the SGM way of doing church creates an environment that actually creates and/or attracts and enables molestators?  i.e. Does the SGM cultural system actually create molestators, or simply attract and/or enable them? Are you saying that supporting SGM financially is supporting a cultural system where molestations are know, and likely to occur? i.e. making anyone who contributes an unwitting accessory to molestations? Or are these just topics for possiple discussion?

I hope your leg is better.

IronClad

Again, I have to wonder if the same thing is happening here–some churchy person or group has decided that going Scientological is going to save the day. Lemme tell ya (based on nearly 20 years experience tangling with the cult of greed and power), if you want your organization to become the punchline for a lot of jokes on late night television, keep it up. — SW Discomfort

Or if you want a South Park episode dedicated to your organization.

Wouldn’t some of the same symptoms be narcissism? As in no empathy and really no basic moral code except what looks good for those watching at the time they want to impress. I personally think narcissists are very dangerous to the mental health of the person who has to live or work with them. — Anon1

As far as I can tell, I am probably borderline Aspergers, right at the bottom line of the spectrum. And I grew up with an NPD in my family; almost 40 years later, the damage is still there.

Check out the motives behind this big Internet troll:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/19/michael-brutsch-anderson-cooper-360-reddit_n_1983825.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10492645

My word. The SGM class action suit made the British Gurardian.

There is a big, big difference between people thinking/behaving in a narcissistic manner and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I feel like sometimes people online are equating the two.

Please let me get this out first and foremost. Any kid being molested is a henious crime. My gut reaction used to be castration, forced masectomies, and hymen closure. Some go further and say stone them.

The bible says that we should go to our brothers first, which I’m sure you’ve done. Paul says that we shouldn’t sue one another. Which is maybe where Jimmy is coming from. In the end, this is a very ugly mess with Christians suing Christians. That is NEVER a good thing.

I’m not trying to stick up for Jimmy. However, he is correct in bringing up others to show that this is not unlike any other mess whether it’s the RCC, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Boys Clubs, Girls Clubs, or your kids 3rd grade teacher at school. It’s possible Jimmy’s issue w/secular psyche could be with shrinks who rape and/or take advantage of their supposed clients. That happens a lot of times and I’m sure more than what others will admit. Who wants to admit they went to a shrink for marriage counseling and got counseled on the finer aspects of client priveledges?

In none of these cases does it make it correct.

I’m not sure why you’d pick specifically on Nouethetic counseling. The short answer to this counseling, which isn’t that short, is: you talk about whatever problem you are having. However, you DO have to get ‘over it’ as best as you can. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Nouethetic or a secular shrink. You can talk and talk and talk, but in the end, you have to deal with the issue as best you can and move on. You do have to forgive the person because if you don’t you’ll allow it to eat at you and make it worse. If the person apologizes, then maybe that helps out, but in the end… will it?

You can be angry because your parents were horrible parents, go to a shrink or christian counselor and talk about it. Hopefully, wounds can be mended between them. But, in the end, your parents were who they were and we have to move on in our lives. Is it easy? No, but it is what needs to be done.

So, Then, what is it that a person would look for? Do you want castration? Monetary? Throw a way the key forever? Close SGM down country/worldwide? Hang CJ and the rest?

Will it matter really if you were to win millions per person?

By the way, there are plenty of reasons why people don’t believe that secular pysche is a valid ‘science’ as such. We can start with Kinsey if you choose. In fact, there are plenty of studies and books done by people in the field that state it’s not what it’s said to be.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone quoting scripture for problems since God says that the bible is the whole counsel of God.

In the end, if we don’t give our problems to the Lord, then we’re much worse problems moving forward. No matter what the issue we believe we’ve been hurt by.

In Christ,
Lew

Lew, are you sure that all sins require us to “go to our brother first”? There are examples of the Apostles in their letters rendering judgement on individuals who they certainly hadn’t gone to personally first.

Regarding Christians suing Christians,  first off the admonishment appears to be over petty things that need not be judged in the courts. When we are talking about molestation, we are WAY beyond what the church can deal with on its own. Secondly, the church HAS demonstrated an inability to judge rightly, so yes, the authorities stepping it does shame us- but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong for the authorities to get involve- it means we messed up.

Nouthetic counseling is very different from regular counseling because it blames the victim for the issue. The question is “what sin to you need to repent of?”- there is no acknowledgment of the need for justice (which God calls His people to do) for people affected by OTHER people’s sin. Yes, any traumatized person is going to have to take responsibility for healing and work toward moving on, but that is very different from accepting the blame that it is their own sin causing their problems. The difference between Nouthetic and secular therapy is that with Nouthetic you “move on” by accepting blame and repenting, whereas in secular therapy you work toward understand your pain and dealing with it, even when the cause is external.

As for what i am looking for, I can’t speak for everyone, but for me:
-Genuine empathy for the victims
-Genuine repentance
-Acknowledging that they were responsible to protect and defend the victims and did not do so
-Acknowledging that they created an environments in which molestation was allowed to thrive
-Pay enough to cover the therapy and lifetime damages caused by their actions
-Have a reasonable plan to show they are addressing these issues in the future

I am disturbed by your comment about “giving things to the Lord”. Are you suggesting the victims didn’t do that? What exactly does that mean to you?

Do you deny justice for the victims? Are they not allowed to desire justice? Are we as the church not supposed to desire justice?

Hmm…thinking about this and the general response of the church, both historically (in my experience) and currently…Here’s what keeps coming to my mind….

Jesus told us to be a light in the darkness. Hmm… if a light shines for all it’s worth in the middle of a room full of lights, it doesn’t have much effect – it’s hardly noticeable. But if even a flickering faltering light stands in the darkness, it becomes a beacon….

Hmmm….also, if we want to be a light in the darkness, we must be willing to look into that darkness. Light exposes what is hiding in the darkness and we must not be afraid to shine the light on those ugly things that lurk in the shadows because the only way to deal with them is to look them in the eye and acknowledge they are there and let the light expose…..

God be with the victims and their families as well as their attorney as they focus the light of truth on the ugly things lurking in the darkness. Let healing ride on the wings of the truth.

Judicial Resignation?

    Hello,

Lew said : “So, Then, what is it that a person would look for? Do you want castration? Monetary? Throw a way the key forever? Close SGM down country/worldwide? Hang CJ and the rest?”

Lew said: “There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone quoting scripture for problems since God says that the bible is the whole counsel of God.”

Lew implies:  Scriptures O.K. “counsel of God” in the scriptures O.K.

Good beginning.

Lew said: “In the end, if we don’t give our problems to the Lord, then we’re much worse problems moving forward. No matter what the issue we believe we’ve been hurt by.”

Question : Lew, Are you resigned to “give our problems to the Lord” and waiting for an outcome? For “evil to triumph” “good men simply do nothing” approach?

Isn’t that the type of behavior that has progressed this situation to it’s present and sad state of affairs?

What happened to bringing truth, and light? 
What happend to fighting for, and bringing  justice? 
What happen to defending the helpless, the poor, the defenseless?

Check The Book: The Lord of the Earth is not opposed to bringing the temporal powers to bear upon a situation if and when it is warranted. The Lord, after all is “Sovereign Over All” ? Right?

Check The History: The current ecclesiastical powers have failed to police their own. Men have done evil and broken the peace. Men have sought to cover up that evil for selfish purposes, and have suppressed  the the truth in unrighteousness. Other men have turned a blind eye to the the evil men do. Other men aid the men responsible for the suppression of the truth. 

Check The Reality: It is no simple matter anymore. It is no longer an ecclesiastical matter, but a temporal and civil matter. The peace has been broken. Justice will be satisfied to the last farthing. The veneer and the whitewash will no longer satisfy.

Check The Gravity Of The Situation: Render unto Caesar what is Ceasar’s, render unto God what is Gods? They both carry swords, right?  For not?

You Consider.

IronClad

I’m afraid that SGM has a better chance to win in courts because they are already aware of a legal precedent, Heroux vs. Carpentier, as it is evident in the book “A Tale of Two Governments”. Basically the court admitted as being under its jurisdiction only the sexual offender, but not the church polity that enabled him to perpetrate his crimes.

An excellent example of this kind of distinction in practice is a Rhode Island Superior Court decision on a claim against a church based on an alleged act of molestation by a priest.23   In this case, the court distinguished two different issues.  One is whether the priest could be held responsible; the answer was, of course.  The second issue was whether the church should also be held responsible for failing to adequately supervise the priest.  On this issue, the court said no.  Such an inquiry was barred by the autonomy doctrine, because to determine whether the diocese was negligent would require inquiry into the church’s manner of employing the priest.  In order to make a ruling on this issue, the court would have to decide what a “reasonable” church would do to supervise a priest, and this would require an examination of “the rules, policies and doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.”24   Because of this doctrinal element, the court recognized that this “examination . . . is prohibited by the First Amendment.”25

Robert J. Renaud; Lael D. Weinberger A Tale of Two Governments (Kindle Locations 1685-1694). Dunrobin Publishing. Kindle Edition.

In a similar way SGM may appeal to their right of treating the sexual offenders according to their internal policies without interference from the state. Personally I don’t have high hopes for the trial, given the way in which the state/church relation is set at this moment. Suppose I want to bring the criminal to court but the church wants me to reconcile with him and discipline me for going to courts, that falls in the category of church polity that is immune to secular law, I suppose.

@ Hester at 06.46 AM

It isn’t just you!

Lew said: “God says that the bible is the whole counsel of God.”

Lew, where does God talk about the 66-book collection called the Bible? I’d also like His opinion on that 66-book collection…

Lew said:
However, he is correct in bringing up others to show that this is not unlike any other mess whether it’s the RCC, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Boys Clubs, Girls Clubs, or your kids 3rd grade teacher at school.

Oh, I beg to differ with you. This is very different because the perpetrators are those who know Jesus Christ and His Words. They know (or should) the value of life, the horror of sins against children, and the far-reaching effects of immorality. They should know that those guilty of crime are subject to the governing authorities; i.e. federal, state, etc. and that those authorities are designed by God for our protection.

There’s a big difference between non-believers commiting a crime and one who professes Christianity commiting a crime.

Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. Rom 13:5

“The bible says that we should go to our brothers first, which I’m sure you’ve done.”

Lew, Are you trying to apply Matt 18 to criminal behavior hidden by the church leaders? Not sure how you are trying to apply it here. If you are trying to apply it to bloggers discussing a PUBLIC lawsuit, then you don’t understand the passage which is typical. It is badly taught in most churches to silence people.

” Paul says that we shouldn’t sue one another.”

Acutally Paul does not make a blanket statement to that effect. If you look closer he asks,”Is there non wise enough to judge among you”?

In this case, obviously not. Who would be the wise one to judge SGM behavior that Mahaney and co would submit to? Mohler? Driscoll? Duncan?

Besides, what you are really suggesting is that anyone who claims to be a Christian (or is a leader with a title) should be exempt from the civil law or basic common sense of protecting children and it is ok for them to protect predators. That would be the result of your thinking. In fact, that thinking is why there IS a lawsuit. Many people thought that way in SGM until they got out.

“Regarding the whole distrust of secular therapy thing, this is not uncommon in evangelical churches- one need not be a scientologist in order to have this view. My old church held this view and it led to a lot of pain. It comes from an inconsistent application of the sufficiency of scripture. For some reason scripture is not sufficient to deal with a broken leg, but it is a broken mind.”

I have to agree with this one, JeffS. Many seeker mega’s got into the counseling business because they advocated “Christian counseling”. And we see the same problems. I would get pilloried for saying this in evangelical circles but the Bible does not have an application for everything. They tend to forget it was written to 1st Century audience. They don’t even take into consideration that when you see Paul use the word “heart” it really refers to “mind”, in most cases. Back then, they though the heart was where decisions/thinking came from. The “head” is what supplied the “body”. So you can see where applications might go awry.

“Lew, where does God talk about the 66-book collection called the Bible? I’d also like His opinion on that 66-book collection…”

Retha, I think most of us confused the “Word” with a book when it is really referring to Jesus Christ. The Bible is inspired but it is not the “Word”. Jesus is. That is why He sent the Holy Spirit, so we could get 9t. John does refer to what is “written down in this book” in Revelation. And there are other references but I think people forget when reading the NT, that not everyone in every city had read all the letters yet.

A funny side note to this is when discussing comp claims and using 1 Timothy. What was written to Ephesus was not written to Philippi, for example. So how would they know? :o)

Great idea, Brad. An attorney going into court in a suit where there is a different terminology needs to have a dictionary of the argot or slang of the group, get that information into the hands of the jury, use it in depositions, etc. It would be of great assistance for former SGMers to create such a document for the plaintiffs and their attorney to use in preparing for court.

Yes Anon1, and as you know, even texts that refer to scripture do not refer to the 66-book collection. For example, 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,.
That cannot refer to this particular 66 books, as some of them was not even written, and the rest were not on one list of “this is all scripture, anything else is not.”

Brad, Thanks for that resource. I was thinking of Lifton when I wrote the comment. Undermuchgrace.com also has a lot of resources concerning cultic thinking and methods. Another great source when it comes to understanding how SGM was able to get so many people to follow them is the Milgram experiment. The Lucifer Effect, by Zimbardo, is also instructive in how “group think” can manifest itself in institutions.

The only concern I have about developing a glossery of terms is that I have personally witnessed over the last 8 years how the Reformed movement in general changes definitions to fit the situation. I have seen this play out in many convo’s and debates.

The plantiff’s might have their own understanding of common terms as used in SGM that the leadership would say they “misunderstood”. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. From reading around the SGM world, I also see “concepts” that will have to be explained such as “spiritual covering” and what that encompasses in the SGM mindset. For example, would the mother of a molested child believe she is following God’s command to allow the molester dad to stay in the home because he is the “spiritual head” of the family and that is utmost of importance. Why would she believe that? Spiritual covering of the SGM leadership.

The mind control that has gone on is incredible. It is hard for folks who live in a free country to realize how much of it goes on in these groups.

All these things play into why the plantiff’s went along with the pastor in the beginning. And how some of them had to either get out to see it fully OR they found out there were other victims and they were not alone. The closed system really helped this go on for a long time. Believing that talking about it was gossip and sinful.

CJ has a lot to answer for not just to courts, either.

Anon 1 – – Beyond the theological and organizational terms and definitions … which are a struggle and, as you suggested, they keep changing … I am just having a “learning cliff” of a time trying to sort out all the acronyms. LT, SGM, AoR, RBDs. And realizing CJ is not the same as C-J (the abbreviation for the Courier-Journal newspaper), though both are (now) based in Louisville.

P.S. Thanks for the additional resources on group think and social coercion/conditioning. Will add them to my list to check out.

I also have a question for the attorney’s here. Since they are asking for a Jury trial and SGM has moved to Louisville, can SGM request the trial take place in Louisville?

Brad, What concerns me most is that the Jury will become inundated with the terminology and figuring it all out. People have a tendancy to check out when something is so chaotic and intense. It is also easier to obfiscate. It is one reason why so many have been led astray. Many of us have been, in fact. And I have tried to think on this deeply and come to a very childish explanation: We have allowed people to make Christianity too complex. And we went along with it thinking there were truths we could not understand without the help of a human. (Nevermind the Holy Spirit, right?).

I will never forget watching an interview with some famous academic theologian (name escapes me) who said all his years of study brought him to one conclusion: Jesus loves me this I know.

Thanks Bridget. The link came through. I did read up on this a few years back when there was a big convo about Christian counseling and what folks were teaching about secular counseling.

I came to the conclusion that many are afraid the secualar counseling hurt their control over people. One aspect of secualar counseling seems to be independence of thought. That will never do for many church leaders.

You know, a lot of people think Scott Peck is reprobate but I think there is much to be mined from some of his books on this subject. His, “People of the Lie” changed the way many Christians saw evil.

There is much to be minded from his “Road Less Traveled”, too. Independence of thought is one of them.

Not likely. The suit has defendants in Md, that is where a lot of the events took place, and the plaintiffs have filed suit there. If you look at the Grenier suit in Visalia CA, what his attorney there did was add a local person as a defendant to be able to keep the suit there, although they will have to prove some relationship between the two defendants. If they do not, a good attorney could file a motion to sever the cases against the two defendants, allege that the local defendant was added solely to avoid suing in the home county of the other defendant, and force it to be dismissed and refiled there. It is called forum non-conveniens (sp?).

WRT SGM, there are too many factors tying everyone to Md to do that. In fact, if there is any evidence that CJ moved to avoid the suit, that fact will be used against him and SGM in court.

Brad –

Last year someone had a link at SGM Refuge that had a time line of SGM (Sovereign Grace Ministries), formerly PDI (People of Destiny International), formerly TAG (Take and Give). It went back to the beginning of the Movement and covered major people and events. If you emailed Jim at that site he could probably give you the link with that information.

Bridget there is so much wrong with what is taught in this video, I do not konw where to start. Lots of truth mixed with lies to make up a doctrine that is real convenient for them.

One example where truth is mixed with lies is mixing the doctrine of “felt needs” that many seeker megas used to recruit people mixed with the idea of secular counseling. It is not the same thing at all. He is declaring something that is not so. I see this all the time from these guys and people believe it.

By the way, wonder how he deals with Ephesians which says “be filled with the Holy Spirit”? That would be a “love cup”. (wink)

Fact is, the Holy Spirit bothers these guys because the Holy Spirit would take their place.

By the way, if one is “born again”, a “new creature” in Christ, how on earth could they remain “wicked”? That is denegrating what happened on the Cross. Denigrating the sacrifice of our Savior, Jesus Christ. But they have managed (the entire Reformed movement, btw) to convince people that even though they are saved they remain totally depraved, totally “unable” and wicked. No wonder molesting little girls is not seen as a big deal. It is normal in their world for a believer to behave that way.

This vid helps to see why victims are devalued in SGM. In their world, the victim is just as evil and wicked as the born again molester.

“By the way, if one is “born again”, a “new creature” in Christ, how on earth could they remain “wicked”?”

Thanks Anon 1. That reminded me of this:

“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” Ezekiel 36:27 nasb

Or- move you to follow; or- so that you will follow; or- enable you to live; or- so that in My statutes ye walk.

“All that have an interest in the new covenant, have a new heart and a new spirit, in order to their walking in newness of life. God would give a heart of flesh, a soft and tender heart, complying with his holy will. Renewing grace works as great a change in the soul, as the turning a dead stone into living flesh. God will put his Spirit within, as a Teacher, Guide, and Sanctifier. The promise of God’s grace to fit us for our duty, should quicken our constant care and endeavour to do our duty. These are promises to be pleaded by, and will be fulfilled to, all true believers in every age.”

http://bible.cc/ezekiel/36-27.htm

Maybe it sounds a bit unfair to those money- and power-crazies, but Randy Newman had it right in – I don’t really remember – the 1970ies. Can you spot a preacher in the text below?

I don’t love the mountains
And I don’t love the sea
And I don’t love Jesus
He never done a thing for me
I ain’t pretty like my sister
Or smart like my dad
Or good like my mama
It’s Money That I Love
It’s Money That I Love
(Randy Newman)

I was just at the SGM website and there’s a page where they introduce their friend Pastor Thabiti Anyabwile.

Check this out. Their good buddy Thabiti holds B.A. and M.S. degrees in psychology from North Carolina State University. Here’s a little blurb:

If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?

Oooohhh…. I’d have two, I think. I’d want to be in Geneva with Calvin. The man knew his Bible, the classics, the Fathers, the languages, and how to train men. Right now I can’t imagine a better person to learn from, speaking purely in terms of his worthiness as a theologian. Plus I’d really like to know what happened with Servetus and provide the once and for all account of what went down!

Julie Ann, Thanks for sharing that!

Amazing how blind they are about Calvin. They forget he had the backing of the state to be a “great theologian”. My take is that if you love Calvin’s doctrinal views, you have to love a form of Platonic thought which is not similar at all to Christological thinking. Calvin definitely had view of the “imcompetent masses” having to be led by the enlightened few.

Seems like Thebiti gets it about the Puritans but cannot map the same type of thinking/doctrine to Calvin.

There are plenty of sources for what went down with Servetus, including the sources from the Petit council of Genevea. Calvin was up to his eyeballs in it. In fact, the Reformers usually leave out of their history the fact that Calvin had written to a friend that if SErvetus ever showed up in Geneva he would not leave alive. Nor the fact that Calvin was furious (again a letter) that SErvetus dared to send him his own manuscript with corrections and notes in the margins. Servetus saw Calvin as his intellectual peer. That did not set well with Calvin and he wrote about it to a friend. So, we have murdering Servetus as a premeditated and planned sin by the icon of the Reformed movement. In fact, Calvin had no need to point Servetus out when he came to hear Calvin preach except to puniish him.

Gabriel Proksch,

I think that’s a very valid concern re: cases like Heroux. But here’s where I’d distinguish this case, if I’m Attorney Burke: in all the cases I’ve ever read where a court declined to involve itself in “internal church affairs,” the holding was justified on a the denomination having a well-defined polity and internal dispute resolution mechanisms. See eg the disputes over property with parishes leaving the Episcopal Church (TEC): TEC and other Anglican denoms have a highly-developed system of canon law, church courts, well-defined roles for everyone from the laity to the Presiding Bishop…and it’s all there in black and white, for anyone to see.

SGM, by contrast, has been infamously vague about their polity for decades now. They’re ecclesiology isn’t even prepared to say what SGM *is*: is it a denomination? A para-church organization? A brand name with franchises available?

I’d have to think that a Court would have a far easier time justifying some “internal meddling” in this case, because it seems to me that the 1st amendment concerns are greatly reduced when there are not clearly established internal structures. Remember, the Courts don’t mess with TEC et al. because their canon law is based on religious grounds. SGM has no canon law…

If the pastor or church organization is authoritarian in structure, as SGM is, and any action is approved by the pastor, then the church itself can be held liable. No theology need be in between. The violation of individuals protected by state law is not trumped by any religious claims, not even under the first amendment, because the laws are of general application to everyone, everywhere. Children are not to be abused, and covering up, failing to report, interfering in police investigation and possible prosecution are criminal offenses of general application. It is not a matter of religious belief or interpretation.

An Attorney,

Absolutely true, but in terms of finding the national org liable for what occurred in “local churches”… I’m guessing SGM–the national org– is going to come out and say that the local churches were doing their own thing, no agency relationship existed, etc.

If this question arose in a TEC church, for instance, you could look at the applicable canon law, and find out that perhaps individual dioceses are responsible for carrying out sex abuse prevention policies and reporting crimes to the police (I have no idea if that’s actually the case, just throwing that out there as an analogy). At that point, the Court has to stop, because they cannot evaluate whether the national denom should be responsible for what takes place in the Diocese of XYZ, because their canon law says they aren’t.

By contrast, since SGM has never had a clear polity, clear procedures, etc. So then, in establishing an agency relationship between the national org and local churches, doesn’t the Court have a clearer justification for diving into SGM polity and questioning how decisions are made?

This vid helps to see why victims are devalued in SGM. In their world, the victim is just as evil and wicked as the born again molester. — Anon1

So all “born-again”, “Saved”, “Elect”, etc means is a Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free card. Go directly to Heaven, do not pass “Go”, do not collect $200.

Eagle, I couldn’t agree more…

Thanks for the link, Bridget (Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 12:37 PM) on the SGM crisis timeline. Will check that out…

And nobody would ever believe me. “He’s sooo POLITE!” “See, he ‘Swore to God’, he can’t possibly be lying!” “You’re the one with the problem!”

P.S.

“Tell them if you want. It’s your word against mine. And NOBODY will Ever believe you. EVER.”

All delivered with wide-eyed Innocence and butter-wouldn’t-melt-in-his-mouth Utter Sincerity.

Eagle –

I’m glad your relative is able to get the help they need because, unlike some people, I believe God can work however he wants, through whomever he wants, to bring healing and hope. I don’t believe he confined himself to what we see in Scripture. I do believe scripture has great purpose for us and can lead us in our understanding of God, but God said he would write his laws on our hearts. Pharisees had the written law, yet Jesus referred to them as whitewashed tombs. It seems that they didn’t have the laws weitten on their hearts. Jesus also said he would send his helper, the Holy Spirit, who would guide us. Jesus said that he, himself, would never leave us nor forsake us. We are to know the Scripture, yet find our life in Jesus. I would be lost, even with the Scripture, if I didn’t commune with Jesus and ask the Holy Spirit for help.

“Unlike numerous others who post here, I believe Scripture is ABSOLUTELY SUFFICIENT for how life should be lived. It’s all there.”

In the 1st Century. To use it as “how to” manual is very interesting. Do you greet your male friends with a Holy Kiss? I would guess your wife has to cover, too. Guess you have no need for the Holy Spirit, Jimmy, since you have the manual.

An Attorney –

“Did CJ or anyone else at SGM have the right to appoint or remove a pastor at an SGM church, or otherwise discipline anyone in that church? Without contrary policies in writing, that makes the church an agency of SGM, thereby the actions of the church subject SGM to potential liability. Second, if it can be shown that anyone outside the local church but within SGM was consulted by the local church or its personnel or leadership, then that act makes an agency relationship.”

There was a signed membership agreement between SGM and local churches (not sure of the exact content). SGM representatives would be involved with removal of any pastors/elders. SGM representatives were always consulted for counsel.

I just spent 90+ minutes going through nearly all of the texts on the SGM Crisis timeline that Bridget posted a link for earlier …

http://www.dipity.com/JennGrover/SGM-Crisis/

… and then well over an hour processing my thoughts for this comment.

First, whoever you are, Jenn Grover, thanks for your work in putting that together. It was immensely helpful as a “Grand Tour” to get an overview.

Second, I don’t know if I will, but I might go back another time to read/view the documentation materials at each link supplied in the many Dipity information frames. More detail may change my interpretations or fine-tune them, but I still thought it would be beneficial to offer some first-take impressions on what I read, as that might be similar to what a jury member would have to consider upon a first exposure to this information.

Third, I think I “get it” about organizational development and church conflict. Since shifting to evangelical and theologically conservative churches almost 40 years ago, I’ve been in the middle of, or observer to: church systems that failed, others that split, one church that was literally taken over (i.e., commandeered/stolen) by an insider group, others that were held captive to/by malignant leaders or “kidnapped” by outsiders who infiltrated in, some that had toxic doctrine that created toxic internal cultures, and a few had multiples of these factors all rolled into one spiritually suffocating combination.

So — with all that 35+ years of framework in my own background — after reading this timeline, I come away with one overwhelming impression, based on the assumption that this timeline seems documented well enough to give a significantly accurate and sufficient base of observations from which to develop opinions. And here it is, the big-picture impression:

It seems to me that there really has not been much recent “forward trajectory” at SGM based on “fixing eyes on Jesus” as a guide-wire for going into the future. Instead, for at least two decades, the SGM systems (leaders, laypeople, churches, trainings, associations, boards) all have been tethered to the polarizing agency of Mr. Mahaney. If you map out the various interrelationships of *dramatis personae* since about 1997, it appears that ALL the lines of friendship, and dominant theological stances, and who’s in authority, and relational conflicts, and individual and church departures, eventually all connect somehow with him.

Thus, as in tetherball, SGM insiders get hit clockwise then counterclockwise, reverse and repeat, to a dizzying degree, based on the metaphorical hits Mr. Mahaney takes or makes. There is a lot of action, but basically the whole thing has gone nowhere for at least the last 15 years but ’round and around on the integrating pole of Mr. Mahaney and the same plotline chain of dramatic controversies.

And if one man has that much direct and indirect preeminence in such a huge amount of activity, I wonder if it’s fair to say then, that there has been an idolatrous amount of attention paid to him. If so, that enormous expenditure of energy on adoration or revulsion, protection or correction — at the leadership level of SGM especially, and with outside celebrity leaders and non-profit organizations — might make sense as system-wide set-ups for many things remaining overlooked or ignored instead of properly overseen, being done in a dysfunctional way, swept under the carpet, slipping between the cracks, etc. Hence, here they find themselves in this lawsuit –- the SGM organization and several of its most prominent individuals.

After my own series of difficult experiences in churches, I’m used to such mega-drama, though I still get emotionally churned up over it (anger, sadness, numbness). However, this contentious history put me on the verge of exasperation. I just wonder how a civil lawsuit jury will respond to what seems to be an organizational context of extreme distraction due to uber-leader-level drama during the exact same time period of the alleged cases of mishandling instances of sexual abuse plus questioned practices of pastoral care or cover-up …

Brad –

You summed that up pretty well in a short amount of time 🙂 Now you can see why many people refer to CJ as the Pope. I presume that you could see how every significant person who had some conflict with him, or his ever changing doctrines, was eliminated from the playing field. You might also be able to see why people never felt like justice was served when they were in conflict with him. He wrote a book on “Humility” during the early 90’s when many observations were being brought to him. His entire leadership team (the enablers) and outside supporters (RBDs – Reformed Big Dogs) continue to shield him and make excuses for him and this “family of churches,” as they call themselves. TGC (The Gospel Coalition) has also been supportive of this “difficult season” that CJ has endured (eye-roll). As far as I can tell, anything CJ has endured he has brought on himself.

Brad, if you really want to get exasperated, read the sgmwikileaks docs. But eat your wheaties, first. It is a study in and of itself of what happens to men in ministry with too much power, time and money on their hands. I could not believe the level of disingenuousness!

Thank you Dee and Deb. This blog has been a small part of my investigating church history and specifically the Roman Catholic church and doctrines. With the nudging of the Holy Spirit I have come to see that they alone are the true church that Jesus Christ founded. What is written here about various protestant preachers is but one small sub-section of the 35,000+ protestant denominations, all claiming they are led by the Holy Spirit into truth, but none having agreement on even the basics of truth (unless you agree with the viewpoint of the person you are talking to). Protestants have built churches on individual interpretations of Scripture and it leads to just the sort of things this blog calls out. Rightly so. Through a veil for sure, but ultimately this blog indirectly gives light to the Truth.

@ Kolya:

What actually happened over here, with many of cases where more conservative congregations tried to leave TEC USA, were property disputes – i.e., whether the congregation or diocese/TEC owned the breakaway congregation’s building. To my knowledge, there is a very clear canon law stating that the diocese owns the building, but problems arose because this canon law was written years after many of the congregations had bought/built their churches with their own money. Thus why many of the breakaway congregations alleged that the diocese was trying to “steal” their property.

To my knowledge, most of the breakaway congregations have lost their cases and been forced to move out, and the Supreme Court has refused several TEC cases because they want the church to handle its own disputes with its own rules (like commenters above mentioned). To be honest, from a separation of church and state standpoint, I really can’t fault the Court – the last thing we need is the state meddling in canon law. Whether this “handle it in-house” stance would apply to a looser (and much more recent) organization like SGM, however, I don’t know.

Of course, many of these congregations, if some kind of anti-discrimination law was passed, would be the first ones to call “freedom of religion” and demand the state not punish them for their stance on gays. But then when their own denomination’s rules go against them, they run to the courts to ask them to supersede/overturn canon law?

Let’s just say I couldn’t say these things in front of my Christian friends… They’d be royally p*** off to say the least.

typo *atheist* (or non-theist – take your pick)

I grew up with a mother who, though undiagnosed, I believe exhibits all the characteristics of NPD. She’s undiagnosed because she would never set foot in a counseling session. — Jeanette Altes

Which is why most NPDs are never diagnosed.

…a bold faced liar on so many things – some so unnecessary as to defy logic – unless you understand the narcissist’s need to present a ‘perfect’ image at all costs – especially to themselves….. — Jeanette Altes

“Not out of Heavenly Virtue, but Hellish Respectability.”
— G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries

And not just “bold-faced”, Jeanette. Utterly Totally Sincere, Utterly Totally Truthful, Utterly Totally Innocent, Butter Wouldn’t Melt In Her Mouth Innocence.

Because NOBODY is as Compassionate and Understanding and Sincere and Truthful and Innocent and Helpful as an NPD. Until the instant you have Outlived your Usefulness.

@Hester at 8:12

I completely agree. I have a lot of friends in the Anglican world, and at some points I’ve badly wanted to interject with “but do you *really* want the Courts to do that?”

Thank you Arce for your comment. What you share is always an encouragement. I appreciate how the good Lord has shaped your faith. You are a blessing.

@ HUG:

“And not just ‘bold-faced,’ Jeanette. Utterly Totally Sincere, Utterly Totally Truthful, Utterly Totally Innocent, Butter Wouldn’t Melt In Her Mouth Innocence. Because NOBODY is as Compassionate and Understanding and Sincere and Truthful and Innocent and Helpful as an NPD. Until the instant you have Outlived your Usefulness.”

Is it true that many NPDs are compulsive or near-compulsive liars? I’ve heard stories like this before – NPDs lying automatically, even when they don’t have to, just to make themselves look good, without any regard to the contextual plausibility of the lie.

Hester-
Yes. I have seen her revise history even when the history was less than a day old. Even in the span of a conversation, you can quote to them what they said 5 minutes ago and they will vehemently and convincingly deny having ever said it. If you are going to confront a narcissist on anything, it is important that there are witnesses. I one of the articles I read, it said, essentially, if you leave a conversation with someone and you feel confused, unsettled, and questioning your own sanity, take a deep breath…you just been talking to a narcissist.

Often, I would make choices on how to deal with her and what to do based on what she had said. Then she would ask why I was doing that, I would quote what she said, she would frown, with a very sincere look of perplexity mingled with irritation and state categorically that she said no such thing, that she would never say something like that. I have a near photographic memory and her behavior would routinely cause me to doubt my own memories….which, I think, was at least part of the point.

And they have no ability to empathize. It hard to spot at first because they learn early on to mimic ‘acceptable responses’ to situations. But they will always seem, even if sincere, a bit off, like an alien trying to imitate human behavior and almost getting it right….among many other thing she recorded in my baby book, was this telling entry: at 15 weeks, the baby is spoiled rotten by her grandparents. She cries sometimes when I put her down.

Often, I would make choices on how to deal with her and what to do based on what she had said. Then she would ask why I was doing that, I would quote what she said, she would frown, with a very sincere look of perplexity mingled with irritation and state categorically that she said no such thing, that she would never say something like that. I have a near photographic memory and her behavior would routinely cause me to doubt my own memories…. Which, I think, was at least part of the point.

Jeanette, Hester, have you ever heard of the term “Gaslighting”?

It’s like NPDs and charismatic sociopaths have this Reality Redefinition Field radiating from them, sometimes focusing down into a Reality Redefintion/Induce Guilt Ray.

War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength, Oceania has Always Been at Peace with Eurasia, the Chocolate Ration of Twenty Grams has been Increased to Ten, Two Plus Two Equals Five and YOU’RE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT…

(Aside: Jeanette, could she turn emotional responses (such as remorse and/or sincerity) on or off like flipping a light switch?)

Jeanette, Hester, Deb, Dee:

Regarding NPDs, sociopaths, and the like, didn’t Jesus speak about a “Father of Lies” who could “Transform himself into an Angel of Light”?

Some are going to disagree but I’m of the opinion that those who think SGM could have simply apologized, come clean, and all this lawsuit wouldn’t have happened just don’t get it. They may see that problems exist, but I don’t think they realize how corrupt SGM is.

If you have been in SGM like I’ve been for any length of time and have had your eyes
opened, what you come to realize is that SGM lied to you! They haven’t been dedicated to serving Christ. It’s a counterfeit cult led by a man whose true intention was to amass wealth.

Seriously, stop thinking things are going to change and suddenly things are going to revert back to being something true & good. Have you not read the verses in the bible that specifically address these very kind of people?

What is it going to take for some of you people to realize what you are looking at is the judgement of God against false teachers and false brethren. They have caused serious harm and damage. We do not owe them our prayers, our pity, or our participation.

How do you think God views all of this? You don’t think He’s angry? CJ & his proxies can blather on all they want about how good God is to them and how Satan hates the Louisville church plant, but it won’t make it true no matter how much they say it!

@ Eagle:

“Wouldn’t it be beautiful if evidence written about on the blogs could be entered into a trial as evidence. Or assist an attorney in preparing her case?”

Isn’t that called an amicus brief? Might be worth looking into. An Attorney might be able to help here.

re: the discussion on NPD’s – I’ll have to dig out a DSM from somewhere to refresh my knowledge, but I totally relate to what has been shared to date. Yes to the gaslighting effect and the superb subtleness in which they do it. They also have ability to climb the management structure. If only all conversations could be recorded more easily, but the tip on writing up notes was spot on. Unfortunately you cannot ignore a NPD person and hope they’ll go away – you need to watch your back for all their perverse pathologies, as well as looking forward and keeping to your own direction also. Ignore either at your peril.

Eagle, that’s exactly my concern.

Hester, an amicus brief is usually something done at the appeals level, not the trial level. Here in Massachusetts (where I’m admitted to the bar), you’d be hard-pressed to get a trial judge to accept one, and even harder pressed to get him/her to let the jury see it. You’d ordinarily need actual in-court testimony. But again, what’s true in one state ain’t necessarily true in another…

Re NPD. I think narcissists are attracted to the ministry. Where else can you be paid to be in front of a crowd every week for 1/2 hour or so, be the boss (formally or informally), get people to pay you and adore you for that as well, travel only when you really want to, etc., etc. And there are huge tax advantages too. And narcissists are generally capable of putting on the humility act when needed — it is a great tool while getting and keeping control. Favorite quote: “Well, this is all of y’alls decision to make, but if I were making it . . ..” Guess what most churches will end up doing.

The pulpit encourages over development of the ego. But if you hang around seminaries much, you will find that the incoming classes are well-endowed with ego to begin with. And narcissism it there as well, in large doses.

Yes, she can turn her emotional responses on and off like a light switch. Its eery. Think of a 2 year old throwing a tantrum until a) they get what they want or b) someone else walks into the room. — Jeanette Altes

Scary, isn’t it? To see the switch go CLICK! and this Sweet Innocent Benevolence replace the abusive rage. Then the third-party witness turns his/her back or leaves the room and CLICK!

Only thing that could make it worse is if your family is influenced by PA Dutch culture (Harrisburg area), where Passive-Agressive backstabbing and crazymaking is honed to a fine art. (My writing partner is a country preacher in that area, and he has to deal with that all the time in church feuds and power plays.)

Re NPD. I think narcissists are attracted to the ministry. Where else can you be paid to be in front of a crowd every week for 1/2 hour or so, be the boss (formally or informally), get people to pay you and adore you for that as well, travel only when you really want to, etc., etc — Arce

And the Ministry has an additional advantage form NPDs. Divine Right. Closest thing to being proclaimed a god yourself, the end-stage goal of any NPD. You have (literally) Cosmic-level Justification as a Man-o-GAWD. The LOOOORD(TM) Himself backs up everything you do.

It is a woman who is scheduled to hear the case. This was posted on SGMSurvivors. I believe the source must be the Montgomery County Court System.

Female judge: BURRELL, SHARON V

Dates:

Court Scheduling Information
(Schedule is subject to change)
Event Date: 01/18/2013 Event Time: 09:00 AM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
Description: SCHEDULING HEARING
Event Date: 01/18/2013
Description: PLT EXPERTS IDENTIFIED/FILED BY
Event Date: 02/12/2013
Description: MOTION FOR ALT SVC DEADLINE
Event Date: 03/14/2013
Description: DEF EXPERTS IDENTIFIED/FILED BY
Event Date: 05/28/2013
Description: ALL WRITTEN DISCOVERY SERVED BY
Event Date: 07/12/2013
Description: DISCOVERY COMPLETED
Event Date: 07/23/2013
Description: ADD’L PARTIES JOINDER DEADLINE
Event Date: 08/09/2013 Event Time: 08:30 AM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
Description: STATUS HEARING
Event Date: 08/09/2013
Description: MOTIONS/INC DISPOSITIVE FILED BY
Event Date: 08/09/2013
Description: MEETING OF ALL COUNSEL
Event Date: 08/09/2013
Description: RULE 2-504.3(B) NOTICE DEADLINE
Event Date: 08/19/2013
Description: JOINT PRETRIAL STMT FILED BY
Event Date: 09/06/2013 Event Time: 01:30 PM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
Description: SETTLEMENT/PRETRIAL HRG

I’m sure individuals with NPD just tend to be in positions of leadership regardless of the context, but there is something about the Neo-Reformed movement that seems to draw an unusually high number of NPD individuals. — Mr.H

I think it’s because of Hypercalvinism’s obsession with Predestination and The Elect. Besides the “Get Out of Hell Free” card (no matter what you do), what bigger masturbation of an NPD’s ego that Everything *I* Want, Everything *I* Do was Willed by GOD?

And Calvin throwing his weight around in Geneva feeds the POWER fantasies. As the probable NPD in my family put it “POWER means I Can Do Anything I Want. ANYTHING.”

P.S. I’d like to see CJ arrive for the deposition preceded by his Armorbearers blowing trumpets and announcing how Humble he is.

HUG,

Good points. It’d be interesting to do a study on

(1) the correlations between Hyper-Calvinist theology and NPD

(2) influential Calvinists and their personality vis-a-vis NPD

“I think it’s because of Hypercalvinism’s obsession with Predestination and The Elect. Besides the “Get Out of Hell Free” card (no matter what you do), what bigger masturbation of an NPD’s ego that Everything *I* Want, Everything *I* Do was Willed by GOD”

…..And then there is that, too. :o)

CJ says: I am the worst sinner I know.

Anon 1 says to CJ: Well, Stop sinning. (Bob Newhart advice)

It is not something to brag about. It is something ones strives to stop doing. (Esp ministers who make their living telling others how to live)

as to the polygraph, and deposition if it comes to that….perhaps that will be one time CJ won’t be “giggling”. He is certainly a “giggly” sort of guy.

I would argue that “an apology” is not the same as repentance.

Calvinistas run full-speed into all kinds of stupid mistakes, then want to just apologize and then keep running in the same direction at the same speed.

True repentance, in biblical Hebrew, means “turning around” or “changing direction.” That is clearly not happening here.

Eagle, it’s important to note that Calvinism is notorious for its difficulty in dealing with theodicy.

I do not think that Reformed beliefs are linked to NPD- the environment in the evangelical church that is ripe for abuse is not limited to Reformed churches.
In fact, when I went church searching after my recent move I specifically went looking for a PCA church because my last one had such an environment of grace and humility that it was a stark contrast from my previous bible church (which was a Calvinist church in terms of predestination, but not holding to other Reformed beliefs). I found an amazing fellowship that extends grace to all people, has humility in leadership, and does not attempt to control people.

I think many people in this thread are drawing false conclusions about what has allowed for this abuse to happen and remain unpunished. It is not the theological belief of atonement that is the problem- it is organizations that are top down with no accountability- and these exist in many churches with lots of different doctrinal teaching.

I know I may be swimming upstream here, but I really think more healing will come when the problems are identified and addressed accurately. Much of what is said has absolutely been on target, but making soteriology the issue hurts the ability of victims to get relief. The fight is not against Calvinism, but churches that abandon their people and create environments that encourage abuse.

Jeff S-

Sorry, but I think Calvinism is very good fit to NPD. Yes, Evangelical churches don’t have to be Calvinistic to have a NPD problem (just look at the Word of Faith movement), but the rigid doctrines and absoluteness of God’s will and Providence (not to mention the attribute of immutability) are perfect fits for people that are immutable to other peoples emotions/problems and believe in the absolute correctness of their doctrine and practice.

Escape From Freedom buy Fromm has some excellent insight into Luther and Calvin, in my opinion.

http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Freedom-Erich-Fromm/dp/0805031499

An Attorney,

Yes, I absolutely do. SGM is not a straightforward hierarchy a la TEC or the RC Church. Its structure has gone through very large changes over the past 30 years, not all of which have been well-publicized. And discovery is going to be tough unless you get a handle on SGM-ese.

I’m more than willing to help on any of that, and I know there are plenty more of us out here in the blogosphere who would as well.

Doubtful, I keep hearing about that book but never bothered. I am going to read it!

JeffS, Here is my take on it with my limited knowledge. Some of the more liturgical Calvinists are freaking out at the YRR and are quick to say, ‘we are not like them’! These are what I call the more sacramental type Calvinists, baptizing infants, etc. The majority are liberal but some are very conservative such as the OPC. One of my cousins married a “Cumberland” Presbyterian and he was very rigid and an early follower of Piper. That is how I heard of Piper way back in early 90’s.

This YRR/NC is a different breed all together. As with the entire history of REformed movement, it keeps reinventing how it applies its beliefs and changing definitions.

I’m not saying large churches are a problem- there are lots of factors that contribute, but ultimately it’s about giving an NPD (or someone with these traits) the platform and authority to control others.

“And I don’t think that exalting leadership is a tenet of Reformed doctrine, though it has certainly been modeled by the larger, more public Reformed churches.”

JeffS, I gotta disagree. I think you are a very open person and I have really enjoyed reading your comments. But this one I gotta disagree. Think about it for a moment….

Reformed doctrine focuses almost to the neglect of God’s other attributes: His Sovereignty. He has foreordained the movement of every molecule since before creation.

Merge that with this Reformed teaching:

You are Totally Depraved and Totally UNABLE to take responsiblity for your sin whether you are saved or not. (They will parse this one depending on who talking to)

We wil ignore the rest of TULIP for now. Those 2 are the big focus of Reformed. If you do not agree with their definition of God’s Sovereignty then you are elevating yourself above man. That is their typical mantra. You don’t want to do that so you accept their definition. Now, you are theirs. And you are totally depraved. Do you see the problem? Many believe this and therefore follow the leader.

Add to this other control concepts being taught as biblical. Mohler is teaching that pastors are “God’s appointed agents to keep you from ignorance”. Dever is teaching keys to the kingdom which means only certain titled positions can say if you are really saved or not.

Include in this mix, the concpet of church discipline as they teach it and practice it.

You have a recipe with many different ingredients diverging at several places for authoritarianism and spiritual tyranny. AFter all, you want to agree that God is totally Sovereign, right? What ninny would disagree with that?

It is all in the definitions. The biggest problem we have are people following man instead of Christ. If all new believers sought the guiding of the Holy Spirit, CJ Mahaney would not have made it past Take and Give. Al Mohler would still be working at the Index.

Rarely does one hear in Reformed circles teaching on being guided by the Holy Spirit and being in the Holy Priesthood as in all are equals. This is another reason they hate congregational polity and are doing all they can to eradicate in new church plants in the SBC. They really do believe the average pew sitter is ignorant. You should read their blogs.

I didn’t mean to derail this discussion- my intention was when thinking about how to solve the problem of abuse within the church to be very careful about how we frame the causes. We could tell people to avoid large churches, reformed churches, or any other trials of places like SGM, but the real issues to avoid are churches that exalt leaders and have leadership who not show a quality of serving their congregations.

If Reformed doctrine or church size can more easily give rise to exalted leadership, this doesn’t mean we throw out those churches, but it does mean those churches need to be very intentional about addressing their vulnerability.

Jeff, I admit I am very radical and have turned a corner concerning the institutional church that pretty much operates as a business or jobs program. I suggest we go back to the Gospels and letters and beg for our filters to be removed by the Holy Spirit and ask for leading on this question: “What IS a Church”? What would the Body of Christ look like?

I suggest we stop excusing the early church problems as models for our own. We have more information. We have more resources to study. We are not being persecuted by the government. Most of them did not even have all the letters! They were both pagan and Jews. In case of the pagans they came from a background of having tons of gods. The Jews were bringing in the oral law. etc.

I have been flogging myself for falling for so much man centered thinking. There are times I think it is more of a sin to go into one of these religious institutions than it is to stay home and pray. Not all of them but frankly it is becoming rare to find one that is not in some way elevating man and/or a building.

I think it is important to note who the influencers are for these bully pastors. My pastor’s primary influence is John MacArthur. I never thought of John MacArthur as a bully and in fact up until the lawsuit, I had a lot of respect for the guy. (Keep in mind I knew nothing about Calvinistas.)

However, for the first time in my life, I came to the realization that there is a culture of degrading women at my former church and Grace Community church. 4 out of 4 of my PERSONAL interactions with Grace Community folks have shown me there is obviously common thread about the degradation of women, treating them less than men, etc. Rather than wanting to discuss the actions of an abusive pastor and how a pastor went against scripture and was filing a $500,000 lawsuit against 4 women and 1 male college student, they spent a large portion of our conversations wanting to discuss: “How is your marriage doing?” “How is your family doing?” “Does your husband approve of you blogging?” I am still shocked about it, but now thru stories people send to my blog, I am seeing the pattern over and over again in churches like SGM, Mars Hill, Piper’s church, Grace Community, Calvary Chapel, Family Integrated Churches, IFBs.

Julie Anne, sadly I am divorced. I am very sensitive to the issue of how women are treated, though. I think your observations are very much on target. When a church treats women as inferior it has already set the stage to create an enviornment of oppressive behavior.

Jeff S… lol

Anon 1 wrote~

“You are Totally Depraved and Totally UNABLE to take responsiblity for your sin whether you are saved or not. (They will parse this one depending on who talking to)”

Do the pastors seem themselves as totally depraved too? Sometimes I see they teach yes (worse sinner in the world) other times no (but yet somehow endowed from on high to show you how horrible you are). Carl Trueman says–

“Given this, it is not surprising to see leaders fall frequently and spectacularly. It is not simply that leaders have greater opportunities to sin; it is that the very nature of leadership will seduce all but the most careful into believing that they are little gods, that they make the rules, and that they can get away with anything. Surround these leaders with crowds of uncritically adoring supporters and you have the perfect storm: self-deception followed by self-destruction are, humanly speaking, almost unavoidable.”
http://www.reformation21.org/counterpoints/carl-truemanleadership-holy-men-and.php

Yes…perhaps Trueman (“I may be a middle-aged balding guy but I can spot a con man when I see one”) can “spot” the Ted Haggards, TD Jakes (and recently) D’Souzas of the world. But I am waiting for Truman’s article on the lawsuit. After all, he can spot a con man…evidently his friend Mahaney is not one- since Trueman found him fit for ministry–(surely no con man could slide past Trueman) so where is the love, support and encouragement? Kevin? Ray?

If Christians are stil depraved, who exactly are these “all but the most careful” ones?

Jeff S – I agree with you, in that *any* system (sacred or secular) that is authoritarian – or that can be made into an authoritarian system by those with the inclination – is a place that’s ripe for abuses of all kinds.

I have seen it plenty in churches (non-denom, charismatic/evangelical) that have nothing to do with the YRR and/or neo-calvinist movements. In fact, the 1st one I encountered was back in the mid-1970s.

These problems are *not* unique to calvinistas, nor are they (imo) anything close to unique to Calvinist/Reformed doctrine of any stripe. *All* doctrine can be twisted and reshaped into something toxic, if there’s no check on “leadership,” and if certain types of people (with serious psychological problems – not limited to those with NPD) start running things.

Maybe a look at Eric Hoffer’s book “The True Believer” will help folks put this all in context – ? (Not sure; it’s just a suggestion.)

He exhibits the very same programming of SGM ‘lifers’ who have not rejected or seriously scrutinized their parent religion of SGM. If he is like another that I know it’s almost like there is a planted trigger that sends them into an alter ego that’s not really who they are. The written word does not seem to work for their deprogramming as the logical arguments here would seem to persuade. — Patti

A couple years ago, I ran into a guy who had been Army Intel in Iraq, and he related pretty much the same thing with a lot of Iraqi Muslims he had to deal with. (He did not mention whetehr these were friendlies, hostiles, or both.)

He said that no matter how educated they were, there was this point where if you pushed a little too far, “The Wall in their Mind would slam down”, after which there was only a repeating loop of “IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN! AL’LAH’U AKBAR! AL’LAH’U AKBAR! AL’LAH’U AKBAR!”

Both Calvin and Mohammed were heavily into God’s Soverignity, God’s Omnipotence, and God’s Will above all other Divine attributes. I would expect similar results when their Hyper-followers push the doctrine until it snaps.

aaahhh…Love your neighbor as yourself seems to be the Biblical equivalent of self-esteem. How can you love your neighbor if you have no love for yourself?

It easily could have stated esteem your neighbor as much as you esteem yourself.

The other problem I have, is with your equating all problems to adult children who can’t get over their selfish desires to be the center of the universe. Fine, we’ve all met these folks.

But by making it seem that all counseling operates this way, you’re ignoring the overwhelming problems many deal with because of very real abuse (physical, emotional, sexual) that adults carry around and do not know what to do with. For many, simply speaking to a counselor allows them to process and begin to deal with the truth of their childhood and how it affects their present relationships.

Please don’t equate victims of real abuse with immature adults. It’s inaccurate and unfair.

“Hold Your Horses, Fella!”

HowDee Jeff,

Horsehocky, what is dat smell!

“I do not think that Reformed beliefs are linked to NPD- the environment in the evangelical church that is ripe for abuse is not limited to Reformed churches.” Jeff S

Ahem! Abusive so called re-form-ed beliefs are linked to wacky SGM preachers, as glue sticks  are to their children’s bottoms. Doesn’t make it right on ether account. Faux grace and humility, is exactly what they practice.

News Flash! They are “predestinated” to fail.

A church extending grace to all people, possessing humility in leadership, and makes no attempts to control the people, they have been called upon to serve?

hmmm…

Q: …what has allowed for this abuse to happen and remain unpunished?

Ans: A bad man welding a holy book, and a faux doctrine with an exclusive audience.

…top down with no accountability, you bet! 

These exist in many churches with lots of different doctrinal teaching, you bet! 

Hold your horses, fella! Two wonderful women, and a blog…

>>====> one tyrannical church at a time.

(grin)

hahahahahahaha

S“㋡”py

Julie Anne, yes I am the same Jeff. I figure you didn’t recognize me yet 🙂

I think a three way phone conversation would be very revealing.

Jimmy, as one who was molested by a church member at the age of 12, I’d like to tell you something, but I’m pretty sure Dee & Deb would object to the use of the eff word here. Use your imagination.

Jeff S,

I have Phil Johnson’s personal cell #. Shall we? 🙂

(picturing Phil Johnson ditching his phone # about right now!)

@ Anon 1~

ok….

So they are still depraved wicked sinners (ala Matt Chandler’s words); yet, ordained by God to be obeyed — because God told them He wanted them to be pastors (that He ordained from the very beginning). 🙂

How do they know they are supposed to be pastors? How do they know FOR CERTAIN God ordained this? (Don’t tell me because they say so lol.) I mean, what is their reasoning? It can’t be because God “told” them because they do not believe God really speaks in a voice…so to speak. So they have this internal witness, or what have you? Is that the God ordained proof of pastorhood?

Who are false teachers in their world? False teachers cannot just be in the wof/signs and wonders/fill in the blank world. Do they believe God ordained/s false teachers? (Jesus said they are here and will get worse.) If so, how do they know they’re not one? Is it just because they say so?

Diane, God foreordained the false teachers, too. (trust me, been down this road with the YRR). See, the false teachers are simply being their natural evil selves. They cannot help it. They are not elect.

See they (the YRR/NC) have ‘correct” doctrine so they are always right. If you disagree, then you do not believe God is Sovereign. It is circular reasoning even though reason is “The damned whore” according to Luther. There is no winning any point with the YRR because God is Sovereign so…..it goes round and round. If you don’t agree then you are saying God is not Sovereign. That means you elevate yourself over God.

Why do you think you have to “preach the Gospel to yourself every day”? Why do you think it is “Gospel” everything? Why do you think you must stay at the cross and not progress to sanctification living out your faith with the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

God is Sovereign. He “Appointed these YRR/NC pastors as God’s messengers to preach so you would not stay ignorant” (or something to that effect was taught by Mohler at a pastors conference last year)

Yes, there are authoritarians in every denom, group, movement, etc. But the thing that kills me about the Reformed movement is that it is inherent in their doctrinal beliefs. It fits perfect with the state church mentality. It has to use other methods of control in a free society, though. If they can get you to believe you are totally depraved and UNABLE to do anything righteous then they can keep you navel gazing and since God is Sovereign, all this foreordained, then what else can you do if you believe it but go along?

(Where is Argo when you need him? He explains this much better than I can)

BTW: Many of them believe the free will guys are false teachers as evidenced by the Trad statement some SBC folks put out outlining their doctrinal beliefs. The YRR immediately came out with charges of heresy. Some of them charged Pelagianism, some said it was semi-Pelagianism and other said it was “leaning toward” semi Pelagianism. The point was, most folks think any Pelagianism is heresy. So there were being called “heretics” and the YRR were very serious. It is a very mean movement. But it would not stand without Calvin’s teachings behind it.

“It is circular reasoning”

Yes…how convenient.

“How do they know they are supposed to be pastors? How do they know FOR CERTAIN God ordained this? (Don’t tell me because they say so lol.) I mean, what is their reasoning?”

Oh Diane, I forgot to tell you how they “know”. Because they ARE! See, God foreordained it. It had nothing to do with them. They could not help it. God foreordained the rapes, the poverty, the wars, the rich, etc. Did you not get the memo? We are UNABLE to do anything but evil. If we are saved we are still evil but Jesus “obeys” for us on the CRoss so we don’t have to worry when we do bad things.

Jimmy really got jettisoned? Until he learns better empathy skills I would imagine.

One more thing I want to say about Nouthetic Counseling- what gets me most is the approach behind it. The idea that secular truth must be automatically rejected and everything regarding mental health must come from scripture. The scripture never claims to be the instruction manual on mental health any more than it does on physical health. Reconciliation with God is not about mental health- it is about spiritual health. The two are often related, but not the same things. Someone who was molested does not have a spiritual issue, he or she has a mental issue. Now spiritual issues may arise, but the core issue is mental damage.

Now we’ll throw out all of the wonderful progress that has been made through general revelation in the area of mental health? I think Jay Adams was definitely responding to a legitimate issue, but he went too far. We MUST critique knowledge received from general revelation using scripture, but that doesn’t mean ignoring general revelation altogether.

I get that people languish in mental hospitals with spiritual issues. I’ve seen it. In fact I’ve never been around so many people aware of their spiritual needs without the ability to address them. And why were they not addressed? Because the hospitals are simply not equipped to deal with them and have to talk about a “higher power”. And the onrs who have the actual answers keep abandoning these people by rejecting all the good work done in mental health and insisting they come to their counselors with little training who are ill equipped to deal with severe mental issues. Even the integrationist I saw felt like the worst of both worlds- soft on biblical truth and not enough knowledge of mental health for me to trust him.

When Nothetic Counsling starts acknowledging that all the work in secular therapy has value if filtered though the guidance of scripture, then I will start listening. Until then I will consider it less effective at best and harmful at worst.

I read the lawsuit and it is all so sad. Children and families should not be treated this way.

I don’t know anyone who goes to an SGM church, but I have to assume that no one would start a ministry like that and start churches with the intent of doing wrong.

But as I have said here before, Mahaney’s lack on education and his belief that is and Apostle of sorts is going to come back to haunt him.

I am not clear how SGM churches work or relate to each other. I don’t know if they are separately incorporated, name their own boards of directors – or if they are incorporated at all.

I have some random thoughts about lawsuits generally and this lawsuit in particular.

This lawsuit should be about compensating the victims. If it has secondary effects, great. But I am more interested in seeing the victims receive what they are due.

Was that a scheduling order that someone posted up above? If so, that is a really tight schedule, especially in a class action setting.

The facts in this case are not set. They are fluid. I suppose there could be hundreds of witnesses. Be prepared for the facts, as we know them, to shift. The church leaders could say things that are different from what we understand to be the case. Loyal members may pop up and rebut the allegations made by the victims’ families. I suppose it could all get messy by the end.

Someone above asked in the trial could take place in Louisville. No. The trial will be in MD.

In reading the complaint, it’s hard to sort out (especially when the facts are in flux) what is actionable (can be a basis for recovery) and what is not acitionable. For example, failing to notify the police of allegations of child abuse is probably a violation of the law, especially if one is in a job that is especially directed to do that (e.g. medical professionals etc.) But violating the law by failing ot notify may not be a basis for recovery from the person abused. And then again, if one is the NEXT person to be abused, the failure to report the prior abuse is highly relevant and a basis for a lawsuit if the abuse is repeated on a later victim.

So, the legal causes of action in the particular are difficult to settle out at this stage. They won’t be when the facts are determined.

Despite the aggressive schedule the court has put down, I would expect this to go on for 3 or so years in the trial court and longer on appeal. You never know, it could end sooner with a settlement or something.

I assume that the churches have turned this over to their insurance carriers (unless the churches thought that insurance wasn’t biblical – in which case, you are out of luck.) If the insurers are going to provide a defense, don’t be surprised if a female lawyer or lawyers are not retained.

I don’t know anything about the MD venue where this lawsuit has been filed. Anyone? Juries can range widely in education and temperament. Trying a case before a New Orleans jury is different from a jury in Richmond, VA.

One thing that I noticed about the complaint is how it is almost tailor made to let Mahaney off the hook – or get him in deeper. Several of the defendants are distinguised for having had “personal knowledge” or first hand knowledge, or something like that, of the events. The Complaint nevers says that Mahaney did. This could create, I believe, a great deal of tension among the leaders. Does Mahaney say, “I never knew about all of this. I had no first hand knowledge.” And do the pastors suppor that? Or do the pastors say that they were following strict orders and instruction from Mahaney? All of that could get very interesting. Josh Harris will be in the middle of this, I guess.

I cannot imagine what this type of development would do to a church. Bust it apart? Bring it together? Does this kind of publicity make it more or less seeker friendly?

What does this do to Mahaney’s role at T4TG or TGC? If he survives, he’s damaged still. And in the meantime, he looks like Lance Armstrong. He still has the titles, but it could all get stripped away.

I think that right now Mahaney is wishing he never called himself an Apostle. And I bet SGM or any churches he starts in the future will have more of a Baptist polity. Each church is autonomous. Each church is separate, controlled by its own people. The connection to a denomination is strictly voluntary and involves only giving money.

This lawsuit may help the SBC continue with its course with regard to establishing a database and tracking sex offenders in the churches. If you take that on and make a mistake, you are liable. If you never take it on, and encourage churches to avail themselves of good resources and tools, the churches become the focal point of stopping this kind of behavior. The churches are in the best position to stop this – or to cover it up, which is apparently what happened at SGM churches.

I cannot even begin to predict what will happen in this lawsuit, but I am glad that we live in a country where these things can be determined by neutral parites.

The term in the OT is “divorce for any reason”. What that means is that any and all reasons (essentially no reason necessary) were acceptable for that kind of divorce, which was allowed by the Mosaic code. That is the kind of divorce Jesus said was wrong. He explicitly allowed divorce for adultery. Some say divorce where the marriage vows have been violated is also permissible in the same way, such as physical abuse, abandonment, and the like.

Diane,

They believe that even false teachers in the pulpit are there by God’s predestination. So, being in the pulpit does not mean they are Godly preachers, they might be evil false preachers, since both would be in pulpits by predestination! So there is no objective or subjective means in their theology to tell which they are!!!!! Until that is, some authority tells them they are good or bad. Of course that was predestined as well. So, you just need to say that God predestined you to come to them and tell them that they are false teachers, wolves in sheep clothing, and must leave the pulpit or pay a special price in eternity for leading God’s chosen children astray.

@ Arce~

“So, you just need to say that God predestined you to come to them and tell them that they are false teachers, wolves in sheep clothing, and must leave the pulpit or pay a special price in eternity for leading God’s chosen children astray.”

Well, maybe my hubby could do that — beings a woman cannot possibly be predestined to teach a pastor/men anything.

“This is a bit of a sticky wicket since it involves pedophilia. It plays poorly in the public and anyone associated with it will be tarred in some way. ”

Bingo.

Anonymous, how do you think MOhler should respond?

“One thing that I noticed about the complaint is how it is almost tailor made to let Mahaney off the hook – or get him in deeper”

This really depends on how loyal his troops are. Right now, that is not looking good with the ship leaking. But you never know, they could use the Nuremburg defense that it was SGM polity from the Apostle taught at the pastors college. (I am speaking of handling all matters “in house” and not using those evil secular authorities).

If it can be shown that SGM operates as a “Franchise” type system (sending current leaders and members to plant new churches and make up a congregation like they are doing in Louisville) which operate very much like their previous church then the whole “turnkey” operation is an issue that shows a top down structure. Also pastors had to attend their “pastors” college and could be “degifted” by SGM.

On the other hand, the SBC, which can argue they are not top down, have cooperating churches who can hire pastors outside their own “system” of seminaries (even if they don’t). In SGM that was not happening during the days of the molestations. They were pastor college grads if you can call them that since it was only 9mos.

Calling Dr Mohler! What say you about your friend who only practiced “strong leadership” the bloggers did not like? Those rebellious evil bloggers!

We’re only a few days into the unfolding of this lawsuit, and the feeling I had that organizational structure may prove a huge area of focus is only getting stronger. Who is ultimately and actually “in control” of policy (regardless of the polity on paper) will be crucial.

I’m wondering if there may be clues to the assumedly “official” polity in the non-profit incorporation papers of Sovereign Grace Ministries (the association) and each SGM “member” church – – even while knowing (and potentially showing) that the polity in actuality functioned differently.

From reading the main “cards” at the SGM Crisis Timeline link, it would appear that there is (using political terms here, though perhaps someone with a business theory background could supply the business enterprise/corporation equivalents) a hybrid of oligarchy (rule by an elite group) and dictatorship (rule by one). OLIGARCHY – Despite who may be on the SGM board of directors, interrim board, and “new” board, you could create a checklist of the same men consistently serving on those boards and/or showing up as prominent individuals of influence. DICTATORSHIP – As I noted yesterday in my initial impressions after reviewing the timeline, every controversy, every relationship, every hiring/firing seems to trace back to Mr. Mahaney directly or indirectly. Why would that be so if he were not “in charge”? But that seems to be SGM’s understanding of the term *apostle* rather than what is the more missional/missionary understanding of an apostle as one who catalyzes – – not one who controls.

From my work both with Christian non-profits working in modernist and postmodernist settings, and teams who catalyze missional start-up projects in post-Christendom settings, I’ve seen where the shareholders (leaders of the project) become the stakeholders (beneficiaries of the project), you have big-time trouble a-brewin’. Seems to me this is why all the discussion of narcissism is also very relevant here. Narcissists often end up in the leadership roles – – but ultimately become the beneficiaries of the systems they lead.

I expect there will be a lot more revealed about the official versus actual form of “government” for the SGM system. Hopefully that will find its way into constructive lessons for the future in church plants, ministry networks, etc. …

Anon1:

I know exactly how I would advise Dr. Mohler to respond. I am not going to be asked to advise him, but since you asked, here is what I would advise Dr. Mohler to say:

I (we) have heard that a lawsuit has been filed. I have not read it. However, I understand that the lawsuit involves allegations relating to child moletstation, which is tragic and something that we all take seriously.

Beyond that, it would not be wise for us to comment on or speculate about things that now part of the court system. We believe that this lawsuit should work its way through the justice system, and that it would not be helpful to me or Southern Seminary to make any further comments.

If he is asked, what about your support for Mahaney etc., he should say, until all matters are resolved in a proper forum and all of the proof is heard, it would be unwise of me to comment or prejudge the proof.

He will be asked additional questions, and he should just stick with that.

Mohler should get in the business of betting on a lawsuit, and he should surely not speak the religious equivalent of “I am not going to turn my back on Alger Hiss.”

Well, Mohler (or anyone else) can have the lawsuit read to him word for word and still get by with saying “I have not read the lawsuit myself” (say that phrase rapidly and then endlessly pontificate about gossip, not judging, respecting the God given court system. Repeat as necessary).

“Dead silence shows they are very, very uncomfortable.”

Exactly

RE: Anon 1 on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:21 AM,

I too got a chuckle out of the young fella’s query about God as narcissist. Did you notice also the tap danced circle and specially plead escape hatch the Reformed pastor used to get out of any meaningful dealing with the question?

In the world of the ancients who wrote the Bible and the medievals who refined it into a religion, there was no such thing as the rights of man (ala Paine & other Enlightenment thinkers). You thought and did as you were told by your betters or you faced rather unpleasant consequences. In my opinion, this is where the Calvinist’s obsession with sovereignty has its origin.

“In Plain English”

Just for you, HUG

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (or test) the spirits to see whether they are of God or not: because unfortunately many false apostles have gone out into the world. Remember, you are of God, little children, and have overcome the corruptors, because greater is He that is in you, than he that is leading Sovereign Grave Miseries.

His eye is ever upon “the sparrow.”

(…and I don’t mean Jack)

-grin-

S㋡py

“too got a chuckle out of the young fella’s query about God as narcissist. Did you notice also the tap danced circle and specially plead escape hatch the Reformed pastor used to get out of any meaningful dealing with the question”

Yep. I liked the commenter who made the point that narcissists don’t hang on trees for the sins of others. Touche’. Too bad the YRR pastor did not think of it. Hmmm

Dee,

Re: schizophrenia. Calvinista preacher once told me schizophrenia did not exist because there was no test for it. =O
So, I asked him if that was also true of say, diabetes or did that only come into existence once lab-tested? We were eventually kicked out of that church. A point made to us by one of the yes-men, albeit beneath his breathe, was that we, “read and think.”

My heart aches for the dear children so horribly wronged in this SGM mess. Spent all today with my toddler grandbabies and wept while watching them sleep.
Hope every book possible gets thrown at the guilty.

lew said: “Where in scripture does it talk about your self esteem? Most every reference self esteem is referred to in derogatory terms. The bible says that we’re ALL sinners. We all do deceitful things each day. Our worth is NOT on our own. Our worth only comes from God. There is scant evidence that in and of ourselves we’re much of anything.”

I was brought up with that refrain. It was triggering alright. It’s like there was a palpable fear that you might get too much self-esteem or something, and is possibly a response to supposed humanist and secularist thought. The anti self-esteem refrain to me was harmful and damaging with life consequences. Poor boundaries, poor choices, poor planning and lack of direction. Because you’re not worth it you see. I have a theory that self-esteem is genetic – you inherit it (or the lack thereof) from your parents. Couple that with a “look to God in all things” mentality and you’re in for a psychological bruiser. It takes a good while to reverse the mental downtrodden-ness and what I think of as a dishonest mindset.

Irish – amen to mmj use! (And not just for cancer – I have found it extremely helpful for chronic pain. Beats being hooked on opioids any day!)

One of the important things to keep in mind is that mj is a *very* chemically complex plant, and the various cannabinoids (and, iirc, terpenes) in the plant interact in ways that can effectively work as anti-inflammatories (cannabidiol, or CBD, in particular). There are people in the US (legal states), Canada, Western Europe and Israel who are working on creating and stabilizing high-CBD, low-THC strains as I type…

Not only that: mmj can be taken in a variety of forms that *don’t* involve combustion or even inhaling vapor. I’m all for tinctures, oils, and – for that matter – vaporization if super-rapid delivery is needed, though vapor is my least favorite method. (Tinctures can be made in either an alcohol or food-grade glycerin base – a few drops under the tongue does the trick; it bypasses the stomach completely in that way.)

Finally, medical mj saved the life of a very close family member. At the time of their illness (very severe combination of things that caused extreme weight loss), they were 6′ and about 100 lbs. mmj – compounded in capsules, which were taken like any other oral med – restored appetite and gave this family member some respite from the pain they were experiencing.

This person is now very healthy. I thank God that they lived in a legal state at the time of that illness and subsequent rehab, or… I doubt they would still be alive.

Tag on my last post: I can’t take anti-inflammatories (my body reacts very badly to them), so I don’t have a lot of options.

Sadly, more and more people are being pushed toward the heavier opiods, now that propoxyphene (chief active ingredient in Darvocet) has been banned here in the US. (imo, the research behind that ban was extremely shoddy and there were big pharma interests at work – but that’s a story for another time, and probably another forum.)

[/end threadjack]

Anon – I think you missed the point, but that’s OK. 😉

Haitch,
Bingo. Just smack me in the face again and don’t forget to say thank you. Big breath. (See I can spell if I want to.)

Mr. H,
Calvinist churches with which I am familiar, are known for emptying out real or perceived elder material.

Numo,
…and between us we shall lick the platter clean. I’m allergic to opiates and need anti-inflammatories. MJ is a good fit for my medical needs.

Anon,
You can have the non-medical brownies. 🙂

The anti self-esteem refrain to me was harmful and damaging with life consequences. Poor boundaries, poor choices, poor planning and lack of direction. Because you’re not worth it you see. — Haitch

Sounds like a perfect fit (and side effect) of “Worm Theology”, which denigrates you to glorify God in a zero-sum game.

Yes. Handed a letter telling us we would have to “remove [ourselves] from the church” if a vote swung in a particular direction and verbally told to keep quiet about our view.

No, I haven’t told my story here. It’s wearying. Enough to say, it boils down to a lone-wolf preacher who isn’t afraid to lie and manipulate, and his sufficiently stupid yes-men.

We are thankful to be out and see it now as God sparing our children from the hateful, cultic, Calvinistic mindset.

Is it a sin to want to knock Jimmy’s teeth through the back of his head?

Do you think he’d sue me?

Irish wrote

MJ needs to come off the books as a restricted herb. There are other plants in my backyard of equal or greater psychotropic value and those are not restricted or prohibited. My grandfather was a physician in the early 20th century, his wife, my grandmother was a pharmacist. Before prohibition, they prescribed oral, tincture and MJ salves from plants they grew.

I should be able to legally grow my supply in my home garden the way I’m legally allowed to brew my own beer in the garage. IMHO prohibition has created drug problems. Lifting it would resolve a lot. And I don’t think we really need to isolate specific compounds or even fully understand how they work. When you are desperate with life-threatening illness, it changes what you are willing to accept.

Exactly!

As for “hallucinogenic” effects, that’s… debatable. There’s no single strain of mj; there are (at this point) so many it’s not funny, and even when one grows – hypothetically – 10 plants of the same strain, there is absolutely no guarantee that the levels of chemicals that can be tested for (THC and CBD are only two) will be the same in every mature plant – or even in various parts of *the same plant.*

that’s one of the things that makes regulation hard… because it’s a natural product, there are bound to be variations, no matter how tightly controlled the growing situation (type and amount of light, growing media, fertilizers, etc.).

The thing is… back in the 70s, most of what was sold (illegally) in the US were cannabis sativa strains. Since the 80s, there’s been a big increase in the introduction and use of cannabis indica, which (like the name says) comes from the Indian subcontinent and Central Asia. Sativas are – generally speaking – the types that tend to send people into space; indicas are much more relaxing and have sedative effects. the vast majority of available strains in the US, Canad and Europe are indica/sativa hybrids.

roughly: sativas/sativa-dominant hybrids tend to be more useful for cancer patients – and nausea in general, appetite stimulation, and certain kinds of pain relief = they worked very well for many, many AIDS patients back in the 80s and 90s, prior to the introduction of protease inhibitors. Indicas/indica-dominant hybrids are more often used for pain relief, inflammation, etc.

And, as Irish mentioned, various kinds of balms and salves can be made from the plant (leaves, stems, even roots). I currently use a topical balm that’s made from roots only – and it is *entirely legal* in all 50 states, as the roots contain no THC. I get mine from an herbalist in CA who developed this particular root/other herb balm to help herself when she experienced some severe wounds/injuries some years ago. It helps a *lot* with topical pain relief, and also use it for minor cuts, scratches, bug bites and the like – they heal so fast, it’s amazing. here’s her web site: http://tierrasolfarm.com/

Irish is also correct in stating that there are quite a few plants that can be legally grown in anyone’s backyard that have much stronger psychoactive effects than mj – and are far more dangerous.

I would never have gone to this alternative had it not been for the extreme narrowing of options available to me for pain relief – the ban on propoxyphene was the last straw! There is NO way I’m going to take something like Oxycontin – and now I only need opioids for things like acute dental pain (root canals, etc.), which is what the danged drugs are meant for. (Though I don’t have any problem with the use of morphine in low doses for chronic pain patients *so long as* patients are carefully monitored by the prescribing physicians – also for people who are terminally ill – I mean, who the h*ll cares about someone being addicted to a drug that helps tremendously with end-of-life suffering?!)

I think we could kill a lot of Mexican cartel activity in the US and Canada via legalization, taxation and regulation… though for previously stated reasons, testing and regulation for medical use can be difficult. Still, it would be better to try and do that than insist that people take Marinol (synthetic THC that costs $$$, is not covered by insurance and has some nasty side effects – like severe nausea and vomiting), Sativex (ditto on the $$$ and insurance; it’s a tincture that’s currently undergoing trials here in the US – it’s legal in the UK, but the MS patients who were in control groups said that home-made tinctures work a lot more effectively – looks like the drug company is trying too hard to “refine” the raw plant product).

Muff – I’m kinda leaning in favor of full legalization. See below!

Dee wrote

The problem has been the dearth of big name studies with major universities. They tend to be made up of a really small population due to the fact the FDA will not give permission for large scale studies that are necessary.Those prosepctive, randomized, double blind studies are essential for more precise understanding.

If the FDA were to take mj off Schedule I and reclassify it as Schedule II, III or lower, this would *definitely* change. As is, “extract” (i.e., that being used by the Sativex people in their trials here in the US) is currently classified as Schedule III – but only for them, so that they can do their clinical trials.

*If* the FDA and NIDA would reassess their priorities on what are truly dangerous drugs – and, say, refocus on things like crystal meth instead of total prohibition of mj – we might have an altogether healthier nation. The painful irony – in my neck of the (literal) woods is the high amount of both heroin and meth addiction. The former started back in the mid-90s (most of it comes through Philadelphia and Baltimore); the latter is more recent, but it took a while for crystal meth to filter to the East Coast from out west.

Taking mj isn’t going to kill someone. Heroin, cocaine, crack cocaine and meth can and do destroy peoples’ lives, families and more (just like alcohol). I also find it painfully ironic that anyone of legal age in my state can walk into a state-owned liquor store and buy as many fifths of vodka, gin, whiskey etc. as they can afford. Binge drinking at area colleges – the kind of binge drinking that can kill – is a HUGE problem. Frankly, I’d much rather see those kids lighting a joint or two – the negative effects are minimal compared to those from alcohol consumption. (I’m *not* against banning alcohol, either, but am all too aware of its potential negative effects. Those who can drink in moderation are fortunate souls, imo!)

err – “hemp,” not “hem.”

Ah well!

“should NOT surprise anyone.”

I need to proof more carefully!

Agreed on *not* decriminalizing narcotics.

I think a parent has to be so abused and controlled by these evil people that they wouldn’t have snatched their child up and ran out of there. It just goes to show that the lack of “normal” response from the parent means that the amount of mind-control the leadership had over them was sickening. Does a child at that age even know how to forgive?

@Ironclad, so basically, their ‘worm theology’ advantages paedophiles…

Doubtful,

We are made in God’s image, but that was broken many moons ago by Adam and Eve. Today, you and I are:

There are none righteous, NO not ONE!

We are as FILTHY rags

You ARE right that we have self esteem, but we’re told to esteem others MORE than ourselves!

Was Hitler worth giving self esteem? He certainly was in his circles!

2 Timothy 3:1-4 says “But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful arrogant…disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy…rather than lovers of God.

“Love each other as brothers and sisters and honor others MORE than you do yourself? ” Rom. 12:10

“Love isn’t selfish or quick tempered. It doesn’t keep a record of wrongs that others do”(1 Cor 13:5)

Bible teach us that we ought to love God with all our heart and with all our soul Mt. 22:37

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others MORE significant than yourselves.

*** It’s apparent that we DO them from rivalry and conceit, or we wouldn’t be told NOT to.

Jesus said: Love God AND your neighbor as yourself.

What that tells you is that you already LOVE yourself. What it is telling you to DO, is to love your neighbor and especially God like you’re supposed to. Which is MORE than you! We have to LEARN to love others.

I would also add MYSELF to the list of people who think/thought their stuff doesn’t stink! That’s unhealthy.

Loving ourselves is a FALSE sense of esteem. As shown, it can very well mean we love yourself too much! Conceited people LOVE themselves to high heaven.

Do I have something to offer? Yes, but if it’s on my own…. not good. In fact, on my own… I can be pretty ugly person. With Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit…. a lot better!

All verses that speak nicely of people are because of what God has done for them; such as knitting and creating you in the womb. GIVING you.

However, those are predicated on us honoring and obeying him. Not being scared, not turning from good works, not leaving our first love, being of sober judgement, GIVING our yoke to him, etc…

To the rest, I’m neither a Calvinist, nor an Arminist. I search the scriptures with the intent to be a biblicist.

Lew, What do you think the “image of God” means when it comes to humans being made in His imagae?

Pop! a dead man pushing up tulips?

    Hello,

       Let me get this straight, for 500 plus years, the reformed churches have been following the follower created  TULIP theological system gleaned from the teachings of a dead man? Is he not under the tulips? Is not our life as believers hid in the Christ of God, seated upon the throne in heaven?

As for me and my house we shall follow the teaching of a risen Savior who now sits at the right hand of God? Why waste your time pushing up tulips? when you are free to follow Christ? Isn’t TULIP a myopic and extremely limited theological system? Did not John Calvin bid us follow Christ? I certainly hope so!  Anything else makes John a dull boy. And we certainly wouldn’t want that, now would we?

As believers, are we not risen with Christ? Has he not said: Come unto me all you who are heavy laden, and I shall give you rest? Has he not given us as believers new hearts and a new nature, and a new spirit? Tulip pushers can worm, root, and roost all they want to. Champagne corks are popping in heaven over one sinner who repents!

Pop! 

What about you?

Consider Carefully?

You Decide. 

IronClad

In light of full disclosure, I have to admit up front that I am commenting from the confessionally Reformed Presbyterian point-of-view, which is, I think, different in many significant ways from the neo-Reformed, who sometimes reduce what it means to be Reformed to bare predestinarianism and often have a more or less deficient or non-existent ecclesiology, sacrementology, view of the teaching elder’s role as restricted to declarative authority only and not a totalizing authority, etc.

Well, to the issue at hand. We confessionally reformed confess, as one seminary prof. put it, “Not only do we believe we are depraved; we practice it.” What we cannot miss here is that when we do so, we are talking about ourselves as Christians. Presumably, many of those already deciding the case in favor of SGM would at least intellectually assent to this, but they are showing a rather stunning incapacity to actually believe it and apply it. I mean, the statement by one that “C.J. is only human” sounds like something most non-Christians would say when justifying sin.

I think a more sober and theologically coherent response would be, “Well, CJ is sinful, even depraved, like all of us, and therefore is capable of some horrendous sins, and so I hold out the possibility that he may have indeed sinned terribly in this situation and if proven that he has, should be disciplined accordingly and held accountable to the civil authorities if guilty of breaking any laws.”