The SGM Lawsuit, the Alleged Victims’ Attorney, Al Mohler, and Mahaney

They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace. Jeremiah 6:14

Susan Burke-The Attorney
Link to biography


Update: How long will it take for The Gospel Coalition/Al Mohler/Ligon Duncan/Mark Dever to mention the SGM/Mahaney 'situation?' 

Date of notification of filing 10/17:  Day: 1  2  3   4  5


About a year and a half ago, TWW was contacted by a pastor to clear up some “misperceptions” that we might have about his ministry. We happened to know that this pastor was friendly with CJ Mahaney. By this time, we were deeply concerned about SGM and the number of allegations about abuse.

As our readers know, we believe that the needs of the victims of abuse must be prioritized. We went out on a limb and begged the pastor to speak to his buddy, CJ, and ask him to help these people who were members of his churches.

Well, we were slammed hard for our request. We were told that we were guilty of “character assassination.” We were the problems. Not one word was mentioned about the victims. Not one! For that we say, loud and clear, “Shame on you.” And shame on all the people who rallied around CJ and SGM.  We may have been ineffective but we, at least, gave a darn-unlike some of these men.

Al Mohler and Ambassadors of "Reconciliation".

Like, for example, Al Mohler, who can be seen in this video, honoring CJ Mahaney.  I wonder if Al Mohler has cause to regret this video in which he calls him a man of true humility and a man of truth. There is also footage of John Bettler praising Mahaney as well.  Warning: If you have been hurt by SGM, this video could send you over the top

Al Mohler, along with a myriad of other “friends” of CJ vigorously defended him after his last dustup a year ago. So nothing has changed in the past few years. Here is what Al Mohler had to say as quoted by the Courier Journal. Note what is missing. There was not one mention for the victims. No wonder SGM and CJ moved to Louisville. 

“I always have had only the highest estimation of C.J. Mahaney as a man and a minister,” Mohler said in an interview — his first public comments on the situation involving Mahaney, one of his fellow leaders in the Reformed, neo-Calvinist movement. “That continues absolutely unchanged. There is nothing in this current situation which would leave me to have even the slightest pause of confidence in him.”

There is nothing disqualifying in terms of anything that is disclosed in this,” said Mohler, who regularly speaks on programs along with Mahaney. “It’s just evidence we knew all along, that C.J. is human but a deeply committed Christian and a visionary Christian leader.”

Remember, the report did mention the allegations of abuse. Nothing disqualifying? What does it take to get disqualified? Oh right, not agreeing with complementarianism. If you go to the link, you can see a picture of CJ autographing an admirer’s book at a conference.

By the way, TWW does not recommend that any non-leader church member participate in such "reconciliation" meetings. The deck appears stacked against the"little guy" since the church leaders are the ones who call in these groups and pay them. There is no incentive to find in favor of the non-leader. Business 101-follow the money.

A radio interview with Attorney Susan Burke

Yesterday, the assertive and compassionate attorney for the victims, Susan Burke, was interviewed on the Janet Mefferd Show. You can listen to it here. The host, Janet Mefferd, stated that child sex abuse is rampant in today’s church. Burke made the following allegations about those named in the lawsuit. Warning: the second to the last comment may be difficult to read.

  • The pastors did not handle the trauma of the victims.
  • They protected the perpetrator
  • They kept the incidents quiet and did not alert others in the church.
  • They used intimidation to enforce the silence.
  • It appears they were more concerned about the reputation and the finances of the church.
  • They portrayed the civil authorities as untrustworthy.
  • They portrayed the pastors as being trustworthy to handle the situation.
  • They emphasized homeschooling and created fear and distrust of secular authorities.
  • The pastors had little training for their position, either in seminary or otherwise.
  • The parents were led to believe that they were the only ones that that had this happen due to the culture of silence.
  • The various blogs helped people to find one another and realize that they were not the only ones who experienced these events these events.
  • These incidents fall well within the statute of limitations.
  • More people are coming forward so the class action suit is the most logical way to help those coming forward.
  • She emphasized the story of a 3 year old child who was made to meet with and forgive her abuser. The poor child was so afraid she hid under a chair. (Dee is throwing things and screaming in horror at this point).
  • The son of a high level church official was involved in some form of predation.

Media Coverage

This lawsuit is gone viral and is bring covered by all of the major media outlets, blogs, television, etc. This time, a little visit by some “peacemaking “ group will not suffice. Had SGM sincerely apologized as much a 6 months ago, I believe that this action would have been averted. Instead, a suspiciously ineffective “reconciliation” group blew it big time, criticizing the blogs and the emotions of the victims and throwing the game in favor of the “leadership.”

How is this alleged abuse playing out in the media? As of 4 PM  today, there are 659 comments over at the Huffington Post. The comments are overwhelmingly negative.  SGM, along with the all of their supporters,  are responsible for allowing this to get this far.Here are three. Link.

“Despite all their prayer and faith in God. These people who claim to be religious can't seem to stop having sex with children. Men that are heterosexual and pedophiles abusing young men and women and having someone cover for them. I don't believe in Hell but if there is a such thing I hope they have a super torture room for them.”

The sexual molestations and bizarre cover-ups / reconciliations are really abuses of power, something that authoritarian, patriarchal, sexually sick religions pursue in many guises, be they fundamentalist or evangelical or Catholic or whatever.

Here's our (quick) story on why we were drawn in to Sovereign Grace churches – we are a well-educated family, but I suppose we weren't very bright – we let our guard down and wrongly assumed that "this is a group of humble Christian leaders that we can trust." Wrong. We are fortunate to have opened our eyes and are long gone…

And our critics say we are hurting the witness of the church…

Contacts in Louisville

Here is some information that might be of value to some of our readers. It was sent in by Anon1.

The Christian school where the new SGM church is located is called Christian Academy of Louisville, English Station Campus. The Superintendent of Christian Academy is Tim Greener who can be reached at caschools.us

The Board chairman is Mark Lagestee who is Director of People Development at YUM! Brands which includes the Pizza Hut, KFC and Taco Bell franchises. Here is a contact page for that company.

A number of years ago, Dee and Deb were involved in a church that did, in our opinion, an atrocious job of handling a pedophile situation. That experience is the wind beneath of wings. We will do anything in our power to help the victims of child abuse.

When we started this blog, we wrote a letter to the boys called A Memorial Day Apology to a Group of Innocent Boys. We are reprinting part of that here today to stand the courageous people behind this lawsuit. You deserve a standing ovation for your courage. The boys to whom this was addressed were older teens at the time this was written. They were in their early teens at the time of their abuse.

To the victims:

On behalf of the worldwide church of our Lord, I beg you for your forgiveness. Yes, I know it happened at a particular church but the church is not a building or a location. The church is everywhere where there are those who gather to follow the faith of the Scriptures. The church did not protect you and you were horribly injured: physically, psychologically, and spiritually. This pedophile stole the innocence you had as you entered your teen-age years. So, instead of getting up the courage to ask a pretty girl to go to the movies; you were brutalized and forced to perform acts that were confusing.


YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME! You did nothing wrong. The pedophile abused you. I know that there are church leaders who have said or implied that you might bear some fault. Not only are they wrong, they are despicable to have suggested such a thing. You were young teens. He was a manipulative monster who played games with your mind.

Jesus said that anyone who causes a little one to stumble should tie a cement block on his feet and jump into an endlessly deep ocean. Jesus understands and He weeps at what happened to you. The perpetrator and those who treated you callously will stand before Jesus someday and will have to give an account for their contemptible actions.


Why do I apologize? I was there when they told us about what happened. I was also there when they told us they would give you intensive help and that we should not talk about what happened in order to “protect” you. I did something stupid. I believed them and thought I was leaving you all in good hands. I didn’t care enough to ask about you. I refused to remember that even church leaders are sinful and can care more about themselves then those they serve. I should have asked sooner. I should have checked to see if the promised help was being provided. You weren’t helped in any significant way. Many of them never spoke with you. I shall bear that burden for the rest of my life. Please forgive me.


I know that some of your family members have had difficulty dealing with what happened to you. Please understand. They were raised to trust their pastors. Over many years, they have given a lot of time and money to their church. They believed that your involvement with church would bring you closer to God.

When these loathsome events became known, they were shocked and had difficulty imagining the extent of your damage. Believe it or not, parents aren’t given a manual on how to deal with this sort of abuse. This scenario did not fit the beautiful dreams that they imagined for your life.

Some (members of the church) of them were embarrassed. Others blamed themselves and had trouble admitting it. Some of them wanted to pretend this never happened. Others, may God forgive them, actually believed that this monster deserved a second chance and should not go to jail! Your parents were victims of this rapist and the callous church as well. Some of them want to believe that everything is still OK, both at the church and with you, because they can’t deal with the pain.


The pastors and church leaders failed you. They may have been afraid that the church would be sued. They wanted to protect a building instead of openly caring for you, come what may. Some of them said that they were dealing with other more troubling issues. HUH??? Some may have even said that they don’t owe you any apologies! Some may have even lied or claimed that everything was just fine at the church and that they never noticed one little thing until the rapist was exposed. May God forgive them. Your pastors and church leaders sinned against you. You did not deserve to be re-victimized. How strange that a church that says to love your neighbor and to stand as a light upon a hill became secretive and unloving. 
 

Please know that many Christians love you. Some of these folks you have never met. Some have given up their church and have been subjected to ridicule, name-calling, rejection, and even pursued to other churches. They have gladly born the persecution and abuse because they remembered that you experienced far worse trials. Not a day goes by that you aren’t remembered in prayer. You have not been forgotten.


We were the silent church. However, we are finally gaining our voice, and we speak for many. We will no longer be silent or silenced. It is understandable that you might reject the faith due to the actions of an aberrant and callous church leadership. However, in those moments, think of those who also loved you enough to bear the anger of those comfortable in their darkness. We, too, know the Lord and hope you will take some small comfort that there are those who have, and will. sacrifice much to reach out to you in your pain.

We are here for you. Please let us know if we can do anything for you other than firmly standing for the truth. If anyone out there is reading this story and wants help, please contact us through the comment section of this post. We believe you, we don’t blame you and we love you. You do not need to face this alone.

Please join TWW in praying for these families.

We close with a song called Too Late to Apologize. You see, there was time when an apology would have been gladly accepted by some of these folks. Instead of an apology, they were hurt, badly hurt. (The music starts about 10 seconds in)

Lydia's Corner:  Leviticus 4:1-5:19 Mark 2:13-3:6 Psalm 36:1-12 Proverbs 10:1-2

Comments

The SGM Lawsuit, the Alleged Victims’ Attorney, Al Mohler, and Mahaney — 393 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    So this is the basis of the lawsuit

    The pastors did not handle the trauma of the victims.
    They protected the perpetrator
    They kept the incidents quiet and did not alert others in the church.
    They used intimidation to enforce the silence.
    It appears they were more concerned about the reputation and the finances of the church.
    They portrayed the civil authorities as untrustworthy.
    They portrayed the pastors as being trustworthy to handle the situation.
    They emphasized homeschooling and created fear and distrust of secular authorities.
    The pastors had little training for their position, either in seminary or otherwise.
    The parents were led to believe that they were the only ones that that had this happen due to the culture of silence.
    The various blogs helped people to find one another and realize that they were not the only ones who experienced these events these events.
    These incidents fall well within the statute of limitations.
    More people are coming forward so the class action suit is the most logical way to help those coming forward.
    She emphasized the story of a 3 year old child who was made to meet with and forgive her abuser. The poor child was so afraid she hid under a chair. (Dee is throwing things and screaming in horror at this point).
    The son of a high level church official was involved in some form of predation.


  2. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jimmy
    Remember, she was discussing some of the background on a radio program. I happen to know that there is much, much more. This is merely the overview and it will not sit well with the watching public. Oh yeah, “Gee Mildred, let’s go to church over at that SGM church. Sounds deep.”


  3. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Of all the hoopla describing CJ, (humble, wise, brilliant, charismatic, committed to scripture, great preacher, great illustrator, passionate) the one virtue sadly missing was compassionate.

    The video was a perfect example of overkill.


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ok, I’m sick after nearly 2 minutes. Do the accolades really go on for nearly 10 minutes?


  5. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    We’ve also had this discussion before about the superiority of the secular therapist versus untrained pastors.

    “The state board of medicine Friday accepted a Harvard psychiatrist’s unconditional resignation of her medical license, ending a six month inquiry that included charges of bizarre psychiatric techniques and doctor-patient sex.
    As a result of the resignation, Dr. Margaret Bean-Bayog ’65, an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, will no longer be permitted to practice medicine in the United States. She may, however, continue to work as a psychotherapist.”

    [ There are many, many other stories of professional misconduct by those in the mental health field. You can google them.]


  6. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jimmy

    Just as many inside the faith-right?


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “we were the problems” This is typical in the narcissists and the minions world. They don’t take responsibility for anything.


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    It’s hard to get through this video and I never went to a SGC. These “men of God” are so narcissitic it’s sick…..


  9. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Every Ork In Mordor Is Gonna Hear dis Racket?”

    HowDeeYaAll,

    “Ceege” couldn’t take TWW Hobbit food…

    He’d rather eat crow?

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

    S“㋡”py
    ___
    Go! SusanB, Go!; go spread the words too! ♥♫♥


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    It also appears, the pastors are being sued for not being compassionate enough; according to somebody’s standards.

    Since when do we get to sue people for not exhibiting sufficient compassion ( Other than Seinfeld, final 2 episodes.)

    Pastors DO GET FIRED for that; not sure it rises to the level of a lawsuit.


  11. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Seriously, Jimmy? Are you for real or are you joking? They got sued for not caring enough to take action to protect children. What on earth is so hard to understand about that?


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    We’ve also had this discussion before about the superiority of the secular therapist versus untrained pastors.

    [ There are many, many other stories of professional misconduct by those in the mental health field. You can google them.] — Jimmy

    I have heard similar propaganda re secular “psyclo” therapists VS Scientology Auditing. Very similar.

    Is Jimmy a Scientologist?


  13. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Deb and Dee, I was struck by the accusation of “character assassination” you had to endure, merely for suggesting that action by Mr. Mahaney to reach out to victims and their families who were church members would help them. In a way, both character and actions will be on trial in this lawsuit, so true wisdom will eventually be borne out by its fruit …

    Just this morning, a friend of mine posted a picture of a window sign on Facebook. The sign said: “Character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you.”

    To which I would add, “… and it is also shown by how you protect and assist those who are not able to do a thing themselves.”

    And here’s a quote on a related note from a scholar of literary fame who is known as an advocate and activist in confronting evil: “If you want to know what a man’s like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.” ~ Sirius Black, *Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire* (page 525)

    We’re already seeing people’s character demonstrated, whether in the creation of a class action lawsuit after stymied attempts to find justice within the non-profit’s system, or in responses (or lack thereof) to the lawsuit. And, as best I understand the situation, since this is a civil lawsuit and not a criminal trial, the jury will be required by law to determine the status of actions involved and the sources of damage, based on the preponderance of evidence. So, that may also be taken as a thermometer of character, as since action emerges from character. And then, shall we not then also see people’s “deep character” versus any persona, as demonstrated by who shows “biblical” adherence to Romans 13:1-7 and the verdicts legally rendered?

    Character, reputation, integrity – all these will be huge issues here. This lawsuit and the reasons for it give us an opportunity to become a “learning community” to take in lessons for our own selves and our organizations. We should be watching, and we will be … Thanks for facilitating some of that learning.


  14. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    That drippy-gooey 10 minutes of flattery is too much.
    No wonder the world just looks on and wants nothing to do with the “visions” these guys are peddling. Perhaps Christians will start wising up. I’m not holding my breath.


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jimmy —
    Discouraging reporting and interfering with criminal investigations is also alleged and is a serious crime.


  16. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    jimmy

    it really doesn’t matter if you are not sure. You are not a lawyer. Burke has one heckuva good lawsuit here.  You, however, have yet to express concern for the victims. If I remember correctly, you showed sympathy to Sandusky as well. Do you ever side with a victim?


  17. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    HUG

    Jimmy as a Scientologist….hmmm..I can see it.


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Jimmy:

    The lawsuit is available online, so you can read all the charges for yourself. It goes far beyond not being “compassionate” enough.

    Some things really are a C-R-I-M-E…even though that’s a bad word in some sectors of the Christian community.


  19. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jimmy, you need to apply for a job with SGM.


  20. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Anon1

    TWW would be happy to give JImmy a recommendation for a job at SGM. 


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Just reading around I am seeing a bit ;ush to rehab Josh Harris. Did anyone see the news report where Josh was interviewed? It is getting more confusing. He was basically defending “SGM” if you think about it.

    Harris, was mentored by Mahaney. Yes, he sorta kinda stood up to him in a way. But remember, Josh has been patriarchal from day one. He was raised in a patriarchal family that made their living off the “Christian” market niche. This is all he knows: Protect the organization and income. He is a legalist in his own right with his ridiculous teaching on “courting”. He also went along with CJ for years.

    Right now is his big leadership moment. He blew it. He covered for them.


  22. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Sue Burke “More people are coming forward so the class action suit is the most logical way to help those coming forward.”

    If one were cynical, you might think Ms Burke is TROLLING for more because the case she has isn’t all that strong.

    I think Ms Burke is hoping she can find a staff member who engaged in sexual abuse and then leadership hushed it up. For all I know there is someone out there who did exactly that. If she can come up with that, she’s got a boffo case. Otherwise?????

    Now I’m accused of being a Scientologist? Hmm – that’s a new one.
    I don’t think SGM will employ me if I’m a scientologist.


  23. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jimmy,You are definitely cynical. You cannot even find compassion for a molested 3 year old girl.


  24. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    JImmy
    Oh yeah, Burke needs to troll. She has had plenty of work. Haven’t you read her bio? Or is that it? It is a woman going up against your authority patriarchs.CJ will have to be cross examined, and tell the truth, to a woman! What a come down for the “Apostle.’

    Why do you hate those who defend the let down? Is there no empathy in your soul? Or is this about the fact that, once again, one of the authoritarian groups and/or people that you admire and fashion yourself after, is looking like an absolute failure and is embarrassing themselves in the court of public opinion.

    You were wrong about Sandusky and you will be proven wrong here. We have been following this for years. Finally, people are paying attention and you are stomping your foot. You can’t control it and neither could they.


  25. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Tar n’ Feather’d?”

    HowDee YaAll,

    Q: “How long will it take for The Gospel Coalition/Al Mohler/Ligon Duncan/Mark Dever to mention the SGM/Mahaney ‘situation?’ ”

    A: As long as it takes ta getz da tar off their faces, eh?

    -snicker-

    Dee, the lonely “goatherd” isn’t alone any more, huh?

    (grin)

    S“㋡”py


  26. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jimmy – I would never let you near a child. I don’t care at all that you don’t want to be near a child. I don’t care that you have tried not to be involved with children’s ministries in the past. I don’t think you are cute at all when you say that. You are only revealing your disdain for the weak and defenseless. You are a danger to children – because you consistently defend those who allow children to be abused. What is wrong with you? Do you think that defenseless children should have to be raped, touched, intimidated and tortured to proved how important your heroes are?

    I don’t care at all that this is not new. I don’t care at all that there have always been injustices. I don’t care that you think TWW is wrong to point out these injustices – you seem to think that C.J. Mahaney cannot be criticized because someone somewhere else has done something wrong. You are a problem. You are an obstacle to a solution. It is exactly because of people like you that abuse continues and lawsuits like this are necessary.

    Whatever is wrong with you?


  27. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Jimmy,

    By defending those who have allowed children to be abused you are contributing to the poor responses of those in authority who have failed to protect those children.


  28. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hmm…this one is tough. It hits close to home. As some here know, I was first molested when I was 2 1/2 years old. And my mother chose to cover it up and twist me up in fear so that I almost forgot that it happened…at least consciously…..

    All through reading this and the previous posts on this, I have been thinking of a short post I did several years ago. It is a window into how this bulls*** affects the child for life. Dee & Deb, I am going to paste the post here. If that is not kosher, feel free to remove it……

    I posted this almost 4 years ago. I woke up and had this conversation running in my head and just posted it as it played. It hasn’t been so strong lately…..slow but steady healing.

    I posted a link at the bottom to an Aerosmith video that shows that these guys are lucky the victims are pursuing relief through the court system….

    (I hope the italics work)

    I’m damaged.
    No you’re not.
    Yes, I’m damaged. It hurts.
    Well, it’s your own fault.
    What?
    It’s your own fault. You damaged yourself.
    I damaged myself?
    Yes.
    How…?
    By thinking about it and dwelling on it.
    Um, no… that’s not what damaged me….
    Yes, it is.
    No. Someone else damaged me. I am not the one who put their your-know-what where it didn’t belong.
    Well (frowning)…. but continuing to dwell on that is what damaged you.
    No!
    Well, fine. But now it’s time to stop.
    Stop what?
    Being damaged.
    Stop being damaged?
    Yes. Fine, you were damaged. Now, stop.
    Stop? How do I stop?
    You just heal, then you stop being damaged.
    Just heal? How do I heal?
    By not thinking about it.
    Not thinking about it?
    Yes. Stop thinking about it. Then you will heal and quit being damaged.
    I can’t stop thinking about it.
    You don’t want to stop thinking about it.
    Umm…?
    If you wanted to, you would just stop thinking about it. Then you would quit damaging yourself.
    Okay, but….
    Now….
    Um…I will quit thinking about it…
    Yes…
    I will quit being damaged…
    Good…
    I will quit being damaged….
    About time, too.
    I will quit being…
    That’s enough. Leave it alone, now.
    It still hurts.
    Well…. you just aren’t trying hard enough.
    How….?
    You don’t really want it.
    But…
    You don’t care how you make others feel.
    I’m sorry.
    You make your own problems.
    I’m sorry.
    Don’t expect others to help you fix your own stupid stuff.
    No, I’m sorry.
    Good…
    I’m so sorry. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to…

    http://youtu.be/RqQn2ADZE1A


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    BTW, I forgot to point out that the imposed silence was to “protect the image of God”….


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    Dee and Deb –

    My suspicion might be true. A poster is comfirming it on Survivors.


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    Watching the testimonial to Mahaney reminds me that discernment is not necessarily related to intelligence or other attributes or gifts. The very gifted pastor of a congregation I once attended did not see the way one of the elders undermined it year after year, despite many people informing him of it. The pastor is now gone, the elder is just an ordinary member, and the congregation has never regained health. I was condemned for blatantly bringing the problem to the fore. Of course, I haven’t attended for years since then.

    I know nothing of the other guy, but Mohler is no dummy. And yet he cannot (will not?) see what is right before his eyes. This is a big problem in the church today – not being able to see the negative aspects of a “leader.” I think it goes beyond the instructions not to criticize – instructions that, of course, issued from leaders in my former congregation. People so want things to “run smoothly,” and for people to “be nice,” that they blind themselves to unpleasant realities.

    Concerning Jimmy: I suggest that the troll no longer be fed. It’s obvious that he loves the attention. Ignore him and eventually he’ll go away. Assuming, dee and deb, that you don’t ban him for ignoring your prime directive.


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    Why do you hate those who defend the let down? Is there no empathy in your soul? Or is this about the fact that, once again, one of the authoritarian groups and/or people that you admire and fashion yourself after, is looking like an absolute failure and is embarrassing themselves in the court of public opinion. — De re Jimmy

    Because Jimmy is one of the Predestined Elect, of course. When you can flash a “Get Out of Hell Free” card signed by God himself before the creation of the world, you can do anything you want without worrying about your salvation. Anything.


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    Ok, I’m sick after nearly 2 minutes. Do the accolades really go on for nearly 10 minutes? — Julie Anne

    At least it’s only ten minutes. Comrade Stalin and Baba Saddam required their accolades to last over an hour, until clapping hands were bloody from the constant applause and throats were hoarse whispers from screaming constant praises. All watched and monitored by Enforcers who would drag out and disappear anyone who stopped or otherwise faltered in enthusiastic devotion for the Great Leader.


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    @ Jeannette Altes

    Jeannette, thank you for sharing that heart-breaking conversation. It powerfully brings home the terrible effect of the vile abuse and re-abuse you suffered. I am so sorry.

    I pray for you and others who have been forced to carry such a horrible burden. May the Lord bring you comfort and more healing with each passing day.


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    3 of the last 4 posts are about THE LAWSUIT.

    I am discussing THE LAWSUIT.

    And because I am posting my thoughts on THE LAWSUIT I’m accused of being a heartless, non-compassionate person?

    The big Hoop-dee-doo is about THE LAWSUIT. I have some serious questions about it.

    [p.s. – For those of you who have criticized SGM pastors in the past for consulting with lawyers; NOW you know why. Potential LAWSUITS ]


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    In my readings this a.m.
    Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

    (Romans 12:19-21 ESV)


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    “For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.” -Romans 13:3-4


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    Jimmy: as TWW’s resident troll you’d know all about trolling.

    I laughed so hard when you said that about Susan Burke because she is the real deal & SGM should be wetting themselves over her appointment. She’d never have pursued this case unless she could win it. And it’s completely normal, that when an abuser is unmasked (look at what’s happening here in the UK around Jimmy Saville, a TV star & charity fundraiser)that those who previously thought they were alone in their abuse, or were too scared to come forward, find the courage to speak out.

    You also know that the Bible teaches that the secular authorities wield the sword over those who do evil. Are you really suggesting that people allow this culture of abuse & re-victimisation to continue? You’re fine with more children being raped? Do you actually know what that means?

    Have you been diagnosed as being on the Autistic Spectrum somewhere?, because your missing emotional understanding is very suggestive.


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    @ Hester: inspired choice of verse there 🙂


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    Jimmy –

    There is a lawsuit because there are VICTIMS.

    I am not accusing you of being heartless,I am accusing you of being the very type of person who makes their VICTIMIZATION possible.

    I have some serious questions about your involvement anywhere there are children because you always defend the predator (Sandusky) or those who shield the predator.

    Your comments have the attitude that no one should worry about the VICIMIZATIION of children because children have always been VICTIMIZED and great men that you love should never be hindered by that.

    My comment was about YOU. The lawsuit exists because there are VICTIMS and men like you will not respond properly to their plight.


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    I seems to me that Jimmy has more than proven that he is not interested in caring for the victims and he persists in disregarding the “prime directive” of this blog.


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    Ok, I’m sick after nearly 2 minutes. Do the accolades really go on for nearly 10 minutes? — Julie Anne

    Julie Anne and HUG,

    I believe it’s worth noting that Mohler’s tribute to Mahaney was NOT for public consumption.  As I remember, it was a video shown at the Mahaney LOVEFEST when CJ turned the reins over to Joshua Harris back in 2004. Someone posted a series of videos on YouTube when Mahaney was regaled by his friends in family, including Brent Detwiler, Joshua Harris, Mark Dever, the Mahaney ‘girls’, yadda, yadda, yadda. Because someone uploaded these videos for all to see, what happened in Gaithersburg didn’t stay in Gaithersburg.

    Just think about what happened after that:

    Mahaney’s book Humility, which Mohler endorsed.

    C.J.’s book The Cross Centered Life, for which Mohler wrote the Foreward.

    Mahaney’s frequent appearances at Southern Seminary.

    T$G – 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012 . . .

    Not to mention the other conferences like Resolved and TGC Annual Conferences, where they made joint appearances.

    Where do they go from here?  Only God knows…


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    Jimmy

    Looks like I have to issue a warning. If your comments continue on their trajectory and you do not mention concern for the victims, we will institute the game called "Where's Jimmy?"


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    Eagle

    Awesome thoughts. I think these points need to be raised. We will get them into a post. 


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    To Commenters

    My husband has convinced me to break away from the computer and drive down the Blue Ridge Parkway to see the fall colors. I will check in tonight when we find a place to stay. Please pray for these brave families.


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    Jimmy

    Look at my last post. We stressed the victims. Watch it!


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    Jimmy is an abettor of the abuse that the victims have suffered, and an encourager to those who cover up abuse. Were this blog about terrorism or international relations, he could be prosecuted for a crime for that kind of support of the enemies of justice.


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    Now I’m prosecutable for expressing opinions about a lawsuit? Sheesh


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    I did NOT defend Sandusky. I DID defend the legal process. Big difference. Sandusky has received his just reward.


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    I have to wonder if Jimmy’s a Scientologist, given the way he trashes the mental health professions.

    I would note, however, that at least the mental health professions (psychiatrists, psychologists, etc.) have requirements and licensing boards. Churches, well, you know, you can self-ordain and just call yourself the First Church of What’s Happening Now! (apologies to the late Flip Wilson)

    There’s no oversight and the only way to get these people to straighten up is to file a lawsuit over their torts. Or have them arrested if they’ve committed a crime. Which is why these same groups have no problem (as per this lawsuit and we all know it happens) telling victims and their families to just SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP to protect the perps.


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    Has anyone read the comments at the end of this article:

    http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/10/sex-scandal-church-turned-deaf-ear-to-alleged-abuse-81189.html

    Yet another SGM church is called out for a cover up (read all the comments) and this is a church not mentioned in the law suit (I know the poster has been in touch with Susan, so I am sure this one will be added to the case. CJ’s Joseph Goebbels AKA Steve Shank is implicated in the cover up_


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    “character is how you treat those who can do nothing for you” So true.


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    I agree with JeffB. Jimmy is a troll, and we shouldn’t feed him. Calling him out doesn’t work. He sits behind his computer and waits for Dee and Deb’s next post so he can be the first to say something provocative. He relishes the anger, frustration, and exasperation other commenters feel toward him and thoroughly enjoys the arguments that ensue. He can’t risk being banned, so he walks the edge. He says everything he can possibly get away with to elicit responses of anger, frustration, and hurt. Then he backs off, plays coy, and pretends that isn’t what he meant at all. At best, this is a big game to Jimmy. But I wonder if there’s something more.


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    Dee,

    I hope you’re enjoying the fall splendor here in the mountains. You may be close to me here in Asheville.


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    My husband is just like Jimmy.

    Here’s what happened. When he was pre-school he was exposed to hard core porn (if not sodomized) and was corncobbing himself in the barn. His daddy observed this behavior and worried his boy might be a homosexual, so he made sure to expose him to porn frequently. By age 12, my husband’s walls were plastered with centerfolds. And just to be sure he would “love women”, his daddy gave him a hands on demonstration on a 12 year old female neighbor.

    To this day, my husband defends his daddy and won’t admit that molesting a 12 year old was wrong/criminal. My husband says “she giggled and must have liked it” “my dad was afraid I would be a homo and this was his way of showing LOVE to me”.

    My husband is also a patriarchal fundamentalist Christian, and rabidly anti-psychology and counseling. I think it is because he fears psychology. Psychology might bring some light into the darkness.

    All that to say, I think there is more going on with Jimmy than meets the eye… If my husband posted on blogs, I would suspect that his screen name was “Jimmy”


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    incognito,

    Oh my!  I will definitely keep you in my prayers.  Maybe your husband really is “Jimmy” incognito.  I have been ignoring his comments because he has no compassion for victims of sexual abuse. 


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    @ Beaker:

    When I looked up the verse I noticed it was right next to Jimmy’s… At the end of Romans 12 Paul tells Christians not to avenge themselves and says that God will execute vengeance. Then at the beginning of Romans 13, he says that the authorities are God’s ministers to execute vengeance (read: justice) on evildoers. Maybe that means we’re supposed to let the authorities take care of it instead of carrying out vigilante justice? And since is a lawsuit is essentially an appeal to the courts to examine a situation and decree whether or not “vengeance” should be meted out and if so, to whom…that would make this kind of lawsuit completely Biblical. (Note: this is different than the petty vindictive lawsuits Paul mentions elsewhere, which are personal disputes blown all out of proportion and don’t involve actual C-R-I-M-E-S.)

    BTW, sadly I do have to agree that the autism comment went a little too far… The spectrum is very large and not everyone on it is emotionally disconnected to that degree. I myself may be on the spectrum and don’t have a huge problem with this. I’m not offended at what you said, I just wanted to point this out.


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    How long will it take for The Gospel Coalition/Al Mohler/Ligon Duncan/Mark Dever to mention the SGM/Mahaney ‘situation?’

    I’m very curious about the response of the other members of the Association of Celebrity Pastors as well. Whatever their responses are, even silence, I’m pretty much willing to bet the mortgage that it will have nothing to do with truth, justice, or concern about victims of abuse in the church.


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    incognito: My heart goes out to you – – – truly. That is a difficult place to be. I’ve seen the pattern you’ve described before and it’s very sad. ~ja

  60. Pingback: some great links


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    Jimmy, if somebody went into your house and took all your stuff, and you knew who it was, would you go to the law to get your stuff back? Or would that be vengeance?


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    Jimmy has mentioned a wife.
    Pray for her
    and for the children (if they have any)

    The lack of empathy and the attitude of entitlement to do ANYTHING with no accountability or consequences… brrrrrrrrr


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    FOLKS – regular commenters……….if we IGNORE jimmy, he will go away. He LIKES making everyone mad – like a toddler with a tantrum. Let’s all just take his toys away and see if he goes away too.


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    Enormous apologies if I offended anyone with my autistic spectrum comment. I work with a fair few YP with autism & aspergers, & to be honest, Jimmy’s obsession with legal form over personal welfare, his inability to empathise emotionally & his repetitive pointing out of the same points over & over have often rung this bell for me. Either that, or something worse.


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    I am new to this site. This is a really difficult subject to deal with and for someone who is still (after 50 years) dealing with their own abuse even more difficult. If you continue to allow Jimmy to offend and abuse on your site I will just go away because I can’t deal with it. I am “voting him off the island”. I am out of here for the rest of the day since you won’t be monitoring this.


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    “3 of the last 4 posts are about THE LAWSUIT.
    I am discussing THE LAWSUIT.
    And because I am posting my thoughts on THE LAWSUIT I’m accused of being a heartless, non-compassionate person?
    The big Hoop-dee-doo is about THE LAWSUIT. I have some serious questions about it.
    [p.s. – For those of you who have criticized SGM pastors in the past for consulting with lawyers; NOW you know why. Potential LAWSUITS]”
    Jimmy

    Well, yes, I see. They were worried about who? Oh, themselves. Their money. Their reputations. Their livelihood. The image of God??

    Read the Beatitudes, Jimmy. If SGM had been doing what God asks ALL of us to do, they wouldn’t be in the mess they are in right now. They should have been hiring lawyers and “trained” counselors for their members who were hurt, not for themselves. And they should have spoken in court for victims, not perpetrators, as it appears they did. And they should not have covered anything up. I pray all the truth is revealed – even if I don’t like it!


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    OK, here’s my two cents/pence sterling….

    1. I don’t think Jimmy has any disorder.
    2. Name-calling him sometimes goes a bit far.
    3. At the same time Jimmy seems to me to somehow think that two wrongs make a right. I remember on a previous post he mused aloud how Episcopalians might feel about gay couples adopting children. Now he’s posted about a couple of cases of psychiatric misdoing (which rightly resulted in shame and/or loss of licence). I would say to Jimmy that these cases do not invalidate the concerns going on here, but rather reinforce it. Sexual predators are subject to the law, and misconduct hearings at the very least, no matter what their line of work is. This is especially true where children are involved.


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    BTW I should also add that I know of no country where sexual activity between a minor and an adult is not punishable under the law. The fact that some individuals flout the law does not mean it does not stand. I meant “misconduct hearings” in relation with other acts of sexual predation (such as health professionals or ministers abusing their position), not which children, which is far more serious.


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    Wisdomchaser,

    Dee may be out enjoying the beautiful fall foliage, but I am here ON DUTY.

    We are so glad you have joined the conversation!


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    Beakerj,

    I, for one, think that the autistic/asperger suggestion was merciful toward Jimmy. A counselor suggested “Asperger Syndrome” as a possible diagnosis for my husband. Husband laughs and denies it but researching it certainly helped me to cope with his entrenched empathic failure.

    Ordinary cognitive therapy does not work with Asperger patients. Only behavior modification works. ie they will NEVER be able to empathize with someone they have hurt. To extinguish unacceptable behavior, they must experience consequences painful to them (as well as guidelines and positive reinforcement for “good behavior”)


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    Jimmy’s deflection tactics remind me so much of what Scientology does, I had to bring it up.

    I know we’re not supposed to reply to trolls, but Jimmy’s anti-mental health shtick is REALLY making me wonder if he’s not a Scientologist, or if he’s getting his information from Scientology-run websites that purport to expose the evils of psychiatry. Because this is a tactic used by Scientology whenever its evils are exposed–“look, over there! it’s an evil psychiatrist!”

    I always thought (and I went to law school) that Scientology’s attorneys were the lowest of the low, and other attorneys would not stoop to use their tactics. Then (and this was before 2002) a lawsuit was filed against the Catholic archdiocese of Boston. The tactics used by those attorneys in the defense of their client were so cruel and so vindictive, it made me wonder if they’d been taking lessons from Scientology attorneys.

    Again, I have to wonder if the same thing is happening here–some churchy person or group has decided that going Scientological is going to save the day. Lemme tell ya (based on nearly 20 years experience tangling with the cult of greed and power), if you want your organization to become the punchline for a lot of jokes on late night television, keep it up. And in the meantime, all your secrets will be exposed. Just keep it up.


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    Incognito – I suppose, with people who come across as Jimmy does, I’d rather believe he is incapable somehow of appreciating the emotional component of these situations, rather than he is just choosing not to see it. I often wonder it in the case of those systematic theology obsessed calvinistas who just ‘cannot’ see why people have a hard time emotionally with what their doctrines say about the character of God. People are drawn to different things for reasons.

    I can see why counsellors suggest it in cases of ‘entrenched empathic failure’….I have worked with teenagers who also seem only to respond to negative personal consequences, as their emotional identification with others is very impaired. It’s the same with my MIL who is undoubtedly suffering from a personality disorder.

    I am really sorry for you having to deal with this – I’m sorry for him too, with his background, so awful. I wish all good things for you.


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    Oh & I wanted to make absolutely sure that everyone understood that when I talked about the autistic spectrum I meant it in a DESCRIPTIVE & not a PEJORATIVE sense. Having a neuro-developmental disorder is not a charcter flaw.


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    Wouldn't some of the same symptoms be narcissism? As in no empathy and really no basic moral code except what looks good for those watching at the time they want to impress. I personally think narcissists are very dangerous to the mental health of the person who has to live or work with them.


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    As a former-SGMer and a law school grad, I have to second Eagle’s suggestion up at 10:53 last night… That kind of analysis might even prove helpful to the victims’ attorney, because I’m guessing she will have to establish an agency relationship between SGM and the “local churches” in order to get the national org on the hook (though I know nothing about MD or VA law)…


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    Jimmy,
    The lawsuit provides accountability and negative consequences for bad behavior. Without such measures, someone with empathic failure will continue to carelessly inflict pain on others.


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    I usually only read this blog, and never comment. But I would like to point out that this post was originally about compassion and support for child sex abuse victims within a church setting. That’s why I was reading it. My heart goes out to those who have been violated, and I’m outraged over the aspect of obstruction of justice in this matter.

    However this blog has been allowed to deteriorate into a story about “Jimmy” and his sly mocking. This has effectively robbed the post of it’s original power, and side-tracked the message, which I suspect was the intent.

    I think it’s been a disservice to the whole situation to allow him to commandeer this conversation. Just sayin’.


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    Nicely stated, incognito.


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    I betcha jimmy has a career in the field of pyschiatric medicine or something similar. He mentions misbehaving psychiatrists quite a bit.


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    Carol,

    I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. 

    Dee has already issued Jimmy a warning, and I plan to carry it out. 


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    “Oh & I wanted to make absolutely sure that everyone understood that when I talked about the autistic spectrum I meant it in a DESCRIPTIVE & not a PEJORATIVE sense. Having a neuro-developmental disorder is not a charcter flaw.”

    I think I understand where you are coming from. While “lack of empathy” *can* be true of some individuals on the autism spectrum, it isn’t true for all of them. I have a child on the autism spectrum, and he definitely can show empathy. My husband was sick with a cold this week and my son kept asking if he was feeling better. 🙂 One of the sayings in the autism community is, “if you’ve met someone on the spectrum, you’ve met someone on the spectrum” because autism presents differently in each individual who is dealing with it. Just my .04, adjusted for inflation. 🙂


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    Thank you to Dee, Deb and every commenter who has shown such amazing support for these victims. As a victim myself, whose life was ruined by teenage boys at a very young age, I can relate in many ways…and if I personally have felt so loved, supported and validated by God through your comments, then how many more who visit this site are also feeling the love?


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    Jimmy, Aren’t you the same guy that trolled over at FBCJaxwatchdog to defend the behavior of mega pastor Mac Brunson who used the civil authorities to go after watchdog?


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    Re:Jimmy

    Two comments have been removed. Jimmy-so flaming what if a Harvard prof was a molester. That does not negate that pastors and church members are molesters. JImmy, whatever is going on with you needs to be dealt with.  Now try a bit harder.


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    Wisdomchaser

    Jimmy is gone for now. Let’s see if he shapes up.


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    Deb

    I think JImmy has crossed the line. I got rid of two comments while eating a piece of Cracker Barrell candy at a Hampton Inn.


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    BeakerJ

    This has nothing to do with you. You are fine. Jimmy is not. I removed two of his comments.


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    Ryan

    When I get back I will look into it. Let me know if you have any further thoughts.


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    Carol

    Jimmy has been deleted. Let’s see if he learns anything. If he doesn’t, he is banned.


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    J Terry

    Could t be that Jimmy has been misbehaving? You’ve got me thinking….


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    Anon 1, Sat Oct 20 3:17pm I completely agree.


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    Oasis

    This blog is in the business of supporting victims. The pastors have plenty of supporters. The victims are the ones who are marginalized by awful leaders who persecute those who have been harmed. We have seen it first hand and I can assure you, we will always be there.
    We have reached out to the victims families in this suit and have said we will support them in anyway possible. And if that makes us biased, so be it. There are worse things than taking the side of the hurt and let down. Jesus seemed to do that a lot. he didn’t like the church leaders of his day very much, did he?


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    Anon1

    Yes, Jimmy has been around the block on the blogs. He has been banned at some. I keep hoping that he will actually be convicted by the issues we cover. i must admit, I am losing hope.


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    Dee did you check out that Hampton Inn for wily critters on bedbugreports.com?


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    Thank you for deleting Jimmy. Please ban him. IMO he is an effective proxy for the abusers, and he may be re-traumatizing some who turn to this blog for support.


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    J Terry

    Oh no! I didn’t. I shall do that now!! Still smiling after the visit!


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    J Terry
    Whoosh! This Hampton has no reports!


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    Dee—you gotta do a room sweep. Check it out physically for bugs, every hotel, every time.


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    Eagle,

        Hello,

           Many have been deeply concerned about SGM, reportedly the number of victims, the specific reported cases of abuse, and the number of allegations about this type of abuse for some time now. Are you saying that the SGM way of doing church creates an environment that actually creates and/or attracts and enables molestators?  i.e. Does the SGM cultural system actually create molestators, or simply attract and/or enable them? Are you saying that supporting SGM financially is supporting a cultural system where molestations are know, and likely to occur? i.e. making anyone who contributes an unwitting accessory to molestations? Or are these just topics for possiple discussion?

    I hope your leg is better.

    IronClad


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    I betcha jimmy has a career in the field of pyschiatric medicine or something similar. He mentions misbehaving psychiatrists quite a bit. — JTerry

    So does Scientology. Because SGM-style Noethic(?) counseling and Dianetics are both direct competitors of psychiatric medicine, and bad-mouting the competition is an old one.


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    Again, I have to wonder if the same thing is happening here–some churchy person or group has decided that going Scientological is going to save the day. Lemme tell ya (based on nearly 20 years experience tangling with the cult of greed and power), if you want your organization to become the punchline for a lot of jokes on late night television, keep it up. — SW Discomfort

    Or if you want a South Park episode dedicated to your organization.

    Wouldn’t some of the same symptoms be narcissism? As in no empathy and really no basic moral code except what looks good for those watching at the time they want to impress. I personally think narcissists are very dangerous to the mental health of the person who has to live or work with them. — Anon1

    As far as I can tell, I am probably borderline Aspergers, right at the bottom line of the spectrum. And I grew up with an NPD in my family; almost 40 years later, the damage is still there.


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    HUG, I think NPD is insidious. The reason? They look so normal to people who know them but do not live with them or are not their ‘targets’. It can take a long time to realize there is a serious problem when you live with them! And their tactic has been all along to make you think you are the one with the problem. When dealing with children, this can be soul shattering.

    Therefore there is really no one to turn to because they seem too great to others. All this is planned and implemented to preciseness. They know what they are doing. They have no conscience.

    I do believe many in celebrity ministry positions are narcissist attracted to the stage, inherent power of a ministry “position”, the adulation that people give because of the title, etc. Think about it, very few people join a church and right away start questioning the pastor. If they did consistently, they would learn there was a problem sooner.

    I think it is a thing to watch. I am seeing narcissistic behavior come out with many celebs especially when they dare to interact with the peasants. Thank God for the internet.


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    Michael Brutsch is sorry posting offensive comments:

    “There are hot-button topics that you can make a comment about and just enrage people,” Brutsch told Griffin. “Sadly for me, I enjoyed doing that. […] Apparently I have a gift for pushing buttons.”

    Jimmy anyone?


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    @ HUG & Anon 1:

    I’ve only known one person with (diagnosed) NPD. Totally nuts. He was apparently, at one point (before I was born), an up-and-coming new pastor locally, but let’s just say he had some “issues” w/sex… He was addicted to porn and flirted with pedophilia and it (not surprisingly) broke up his marriage.

    He also stunk at distinguishing his interpretation of the Bible from The Truth. For instance, he once said that “there’s only one answer in the Greek” and all you had to do to the find “the answer” was to go get someone who spoke Greek. He never did explain what happened if two people who both spoke Greek disagreed on “the answer.” My guess is that HIS answer would always be “the answer.”


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    There is a big, big difference between people thinking/behaving in a narcissistic manner and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I feel like sometimes people online are equating the two.


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    Regarding the whole distrust of secular therapy thing, this is not uncommon in evangelical churches- one need not be a scientologist in order to have this view. My old church held this view and it led to a lot of pain. It comes from an inconsistent application of the sufficiency of scripture. For some reason scripture is not sufficient to deal with a broken leg, but it is a broken mind.

    This kind of thinking is exactly what ends up protecting abusers within the church. People can’t even say they are hurting because the pastors will tell them they aren’t, and if their opinion is the only valid one, the victim has no recourse.


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    Please let me get this out first and foremost. Any kid being molested is a henious crime. My gut reaction used to be castration, forced masectomies, and hymen closure. Some go further and say stone them.

    The bible says that we should go to our brothers first, which I’m sure you’ve done. Paul says that we shouldn’t sue one another. Which is maybe where Jimmy is coming from. In the end, this is a very ugly mess with Christians suing Christians. That is NEVER a good thing.

    I’m not trying to stick up for Jimmy. However, he is correct in bringing up others to show that this is not unlike any other mess whether it’s the RCC, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Boys Clubs, Girls Clubs, or your kids 3rd grade teacher at school. It’s possible Jimmy’s issue w/secular psyche could be with shrinks who rape and/or take advantage of their supposed clients. That happens a lot of times and I’m sure more than what others will admit. Who wants to admit they went to a shrink for marriage counseling and got counseled on the finer aspects of client priveledges?

    In none of these cases does it make it correct.

    I’m not sure why you’d pick specifically on Nouethetic counseling. The short answer to this counseling, which isn’t that short, is: you talk about whatever problem you are having. However, you DO have to get ‘over it’ as best as you can. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Nouethetic or a secular shrink. You can talk and talk and talk, but in the end, you have to deal with the issue as best you can and move on. You do have to forgive the person because if you don’t you’ll allow it to eat at you and make it worse. If the person apologizes, then maybe that helps out, but in the end… will it?

    You can be angry because your parents were horrible parents, go to a shrink or christian counselor and talk about it. Hopefully, wounds can be mended between them. But, in the end, your parents were who they were and we have to move on in our lives. Is it easy? No, but it is what needs to be done.

    So, Then, what is it that a person would look for? Do you want castration? Monetary? Throw a way the key forever? Close SGM down country/worldwide? Hang CJ and the rest?

    Will it matter really if you were to win millions per person?

    By the way, there are plenty of reasons why people don’t believe that secular pysche is a valid ‘science’ as such. We can start with Kinsey if you choose. In fact, there are plenty of studies and books done by people in the field that state it’s not what it’s said to be.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone quoting scripture for problems since God says that the bible is the whole counsel of God.

    In the end, if we don’t give our problems to the Lord, then we’re much worse problems moving forward. No matter what the issue we believe we’ve been hurt by.

    In Christ,
    Lew


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    Numo, it’s that way with most medical terms- just like “depression” is used to mean a general feeling of being down instead of the very serious issue it is.

    I would also say I think the mental health specialists are far from consistently being able to identify personality disorders and there are disagreements on how to go about it. My ex didn’t “ring the bell” for any personality disorders, but I had a doctor tell me her traits were well enough on the way that she had major problems.

    But all that being said- we are all a little narcissistic, but the true NPD is a different animal, as you say. I wouldn’t say it is unreasonable to think that some of the major preaching personalities have NPD- it would explain a lot.


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    Lew, are you sure that all sins require us to “go to our brother first”? There are examples of the Apostles in their letters rendering judgement on individuals who they certainly hadn’t gone to personally first.

    Regarding Christians suing Christians,  first off the admonishment appears to be over petty things that need not be judged in the courts. When we are talking about molestation, we are WAY beyond what the church can deal with on its own. Secondly, the church HAS demonstrated an inability to judge rightly, so yes, the authorities stepping it does shame us- but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong for the authorities to get involve- it means we messed up.

    Nouthetic counseling is very different from regular counseling because it blames the victim for the issue. The question is “what sin to you need to repent of?”- there is no acknowledgment of the need for justice (which God calls His people to do) for people affected by OTHER people’s sin. Yes, any traumatized person is going to have to take responsibility for healing and work toward moving on, but that is very different from accepting the blame that it is their own sin causing their problems. The difference between Nouthetic and secular therapy is that with Nouthetic you “move on” by accepting blame and repenting, whereas in secular therapy you work toward understand your pain and dealing with it, even when the cause is external.

    As for what i am looking for, I can’t speak for everyone, but for me:
    -Genuine empathy for the victims
    -Genuine repentance
    -Acknowledging that they were responsible to protect and defend the victims and did not do so
    -Acknowledging that they created an environments in which molestation was allowed to thrive
    -Pay enough to cover the therapy and lifetime damages caused by their actions
    -Have a reasonable plan to show they are addressing these issues in the future

    I am disturbed by your comment about “giving things to the Lord”. Are you suggesting the victims didn’t do that? What exactly does that mean to you?

    Do you deny justice for the victims? Are they not allowed to desire justice? Are we as the church not supposed to desire justice?

  110. Pingback: FLAGSHIP CHURCHES PREPARE TO LEAVE AS LAWSUIT CHARGES SOVEREIGN GRACE MINISTRIES OF C.J. MAHANEY WITH COVERING UP CHILD SEX ABUSE « Endtime News With Prophecy In Mind


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    Lew said: You do have to forgive the person because if you don’t you’ll allow it to eat at you and make it worse. If the person apologizes, then maybe that helps out, but in the end… will it?

    In these cases, the victims were children. We heard of a 3 year old who was forced to meet with the perpetrator to forgive him. WTH is that all about? Who puts a 3-yr old in a room with the perpetrator for the purpose of reconciliation? We also heard that said child hid under the table in fear at that meeting. I want to cry just typing this. I cannot get that visual out of my mind. The child had just turned THREE YEARS OLD. This is the kind of nonsense SGM did. They re-victimized the victim and families by making them do their way of “counseling”. This is putting legalistic church rules of forgiveness and reconciliation before genuinely loving and caring for a family in the midst of a horrible crisis.


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    Hmm…thinking about this and the general response of the church, both historically (in my experience) and currently…Here’s what keeps coming to my mind….

    Jesus told us to be a light in the darkness. Hmm… if a light shines for all it’s worth in the middle of a room full of lights, it doesn’t have much effect – it’s hardly noticeable. But if even a flickering faltering light stands in the darkness, it becomes a beacon….

    Hmmm….also, if we want to be a light in the darkness, we must be willing to look into that darkness. Light exposes what is hiding in the darkness and we must not be afraid to shine the light on those ugly things that lurk in the shadows because the only way to deal with them is to look them in the eye and acknowledge they are there and let the light expose…..

    God be with the victims and their families as well as their attorney as they focus the light of truth on the ugly things lurking in the darkness. Let healing ride on the wings of the truth.


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    re: all the discussion about the ‘how’ of reconciliation

    A number of years ago I studied reconciliation and conflict resolution (more on the societal scale, but the principles are the same). The most basic part of any reconciliation process, is it has to be dictated by the victim. It is not the job of someone outside – or, God forbid, the perpetrator – to tell the victim how they are to process the event, or how they are to be reconciled. This means it can vary between individuals and groups. This can be seen in (again, peace and conflict background) the different processes used in different places around the world: the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, the Northern Ireland Good Friday Agreement, Australia’s apology to the Stolen Generations. Other places, such as Rwanda, East Timor, and Bougainville, adapted traditional community justice methods.


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    Judicial Resignation?

        Hello,

    Lew said : “So, Then, what is it that a person would look for? Do you want castration? Monetary? Throw a way the key forever? Close SGM down country/worldwide? Hang CJ and the rest?”

    Lew said: “There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone quoting scripture for problems since God says that the bible is the whole counsel of God.”

    Lew implies:  Scriptures O.K. “counsel of God” in the scriptures O.K.

    Good beginning.

    Lew said: “In the end, if we don’t give our problems to the Lord, then we’re much worse problems moving forward. No matter what the issue we believe we’ve been hurt by.”

    Question : Lew, Are you resigned to “give our problems to the Lord” and waiting for an outcome? For “evil to triumph” “good men simply do nothing” approach?

    Isn’t that the type of behavior that has progressed this situation to it’s present and sad state of affairs?

    What happened to bringing truth, and light? 
    What happend to fighting for, and bringing  justice? 
    What happen to defending the helpless, the poor, the defenseless?

    Check The Book: The Lord of the Earth is not opposed to bringing the temporal powers to bear upon a situation if and when it is warranted. The Lord, after all is “Sovereign Over All” ? Right?

    Check The History: The current ecclesiastical powers have failed to police their own. Men have done evil and broken the peace. Men have sought to cover up that evil for selfish purposes, and have suppressed  the the truth in unrighteousness. Other men have turned a blind eye to the the evil men do. Other men aid the men responsible for the suppression of the truth. 

    Check The Reality: It is no simple matter anymore. It is no longer an ecclesiastical matter, but a temporal and civil matter. The peace has been broken. Justice will be satisfied to the last farthing. The veneer and the whitewash will no longer satisfy.

    Check The Gravity Of The Situation: Render unto Caesar what is Ceasar’s, render unto God what is Gods? They both carry swords, right?  For not?

    You Consider.

    IronClad


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    And don’t even start mentioning Nouthetic counselling when it comes to the sexually abused. It is a pitiless approach & I would never never never let anyone I loved anywhere near it. There may be compassionate people who use it (somewhere, maybe), but it is tantamount to blaming the victim for feeling bad, as it means they are not being obedient enough.
    I hope that those in this lawsuit, & all those reading that it’s relevant to, get something far better & far more Christlike: someone who weeps with them.


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    I’m afraid that SGM has a better chance to win in courts because they are already aware of a legal precedent, Heroux vs. Carpentier, as it is evident in the book “A Tale of Two Governments”. Basically the court admitted as being under its jurisdiction only the sexual offender, but not the church polity that enabled him to perpetrate his crimes.

    An excellent example of this kind of distinction in practice is a Rhode Island Superior Court decision on a claim against a church based on an alleged act of molestation by a priest.23   In this case, the court distinguished two different issues.  One is whether the priest could be held responsible; the answer was, of course.  The second issue was whether the church should also be held responsible for failing to adequately supervise the priest.  On this issue, the court said no.  Such an inquiry was barred by the autonomy doctrine, because to determine whether the diocese was negligent would require inquiry into the church’s manner of employing the priest.  In order to make a ruling on this issue, the court would have to decide what a “reasonable” church would do to supervise a priest, and this would require an examination of “the rules, policies and doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church.”24   Because of this doctrinal element, the court recognized that this “examination . . . is prohibited by the First Amendment.”25

    Robert J. Renaud; Lael D. Weinberger A Tale of Two Governments (Kindle Locations 1685-1694). Dunrobin Publishing. Kindle Edition.

    In a similar way SGM may appeal to their right of treating the sexual offenders according to their internal policies without interference from the state. Personally I don’t have high hopes for the trial, given the way in which the state/church relation is set at this moment. Suppose I want to bring the criminal to court but the church wants me to reconcile with him and discipline me for going to courts, that falls in the category of church polity that is immune to secular law, I suppose.


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    “In the end, this is a very ugly mess with Christians suing Christians. That is NEVER a good thing.”

    Personally, I would wonder very much if someone who molested a 3-year-old child and then hid from the consequences behind a church structure was regenerate. Maybe that’s just me.


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    @ Hester at 06.46 AM

    It isn’t just you!


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    A nouthetic counselor says, applying Jesus words, that the victim needs to follow Christ’s directive and “turn the other cheek”, and that failing to do so is sin. Absolutely inappropriate for the victim of child abuse, or of spiritual abuse, shunning, etc.

    It compounds the sin against the victim and misplaces the blame for their situation on them and not on the perp or the enablers of the perp.

    The problem is that the warped theology and ecclesiology of SGM (read CJ and friends) enable the sexual abuse of children and protected the abusers, rather than caring for the victims. It is pathetic and sick. And if the Christian world cannot do better, then it must become subject to the civil authorities.

    Some churches are worse than criminal gangs. Society seeks to disband and destroy criminal gangs. The Christian community needs to act to do the same to criminal ministries, which is what some are, because the aid and abet and cover up abuse to the little children that Jesus loves


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    Lew said: “God says that the bible is the whole counsel of God.”

    Lew, where does God talk about the 66-book collection called the Bible? I’d also like His opinion on that 66-book collection…


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    Gabriel

    There is a reason this well respected lawyer is taking on this case. The danger here is the court of public opinion. People are sick and tired of pedophiles being allowed to run unnimparied in churches. This will be a jury trial in a civil class action suit. The trial itself will damage, seriously, SGM. In my opinion, they deserve it. If I were SGM I would be very, very afraid of the jury.


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    lew

    Nouthetic counseling is discredited by even Christians who are leaders in the psych field. But, my guess is, you will blow them off as not really quite meeting your definition of Christian. How do you know that regular counseling does not deal with wrong actions on the part of the client? Perhaps you have been told that by “real” Christian counselors?

    I disagree with your assessment of this situation. The people involved did bring it to the “brother”, then the “brother” brought it to them, big time! It makes me sad to think that there are those in the church who have far lower expectations than our rule of law. Just shut up and forgive. Right? Did you know that a kid associated with the suit has been in and out of psych hospitals? Their “brother” (SGM) allegedly has not assisted them and only began to talk they might after years of stalling.

    The men involved in this are creeps. CJ should be ashamed of this climate, along with his own role in these situation. They may be saved but they are despicable. And as for a large settlement, which I hope they get, maybe, just maybe, since love and compassion does not seem to be a hallmark of the SGM crowd, they will get the message with a sting of money. The next time, I can bet they will be very sure to do “the right thing.” Too bad they didn’t do the right thing because of their faith. And from my vantage point, it would not be any great whoop if SGM dissolved. Maybe it might teach some arrogant people about consequences of actions.

    As for Jimmy, you don’t know the half of it.


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    lew

    PS If I hear you blame the victims in this situation, you can be sure you will go the way of Jimmy. You will sound like just another ho hum person who thinks Christians play by a different law and that law must be good because they are pastors. Pastors are sinners, just like us and I believe there must be consequences for these pastors.


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    Lew said:
    However, he is correct in bringing up others to show that this is not unlike any other mess whether it’s the RCC, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Boys Clubs, Girls Clubs, or your kids 3rd grade teacher at school.

    Oh, I beg to differ with you. This is very different because the perpetrators are those who know Jesus Christ and His Words. They know (or should) the value of life, the horror of sins against children, and the far-reaching effects of immorality. They should know that those guilty of crime are subject to the governing authorities; i.e. federal, state, etc. and that those authorities are designed by God for our protection.

    There’s a big difference between non-believers commiting a crime and one who professes Christianity commiting a crime.

    Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. Rom 13:5


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    “I would also say I think the mental health specialists are far from consistently being able to identify personality disorders and there are disagreements on how to go about it.”

    That is the problem. Hard to diagnose because narcissist do not thnk they have a problem for the most part. Anyone familiar with Sam Vadim (think that is his name). He has done a ton of videos on this. And he is a narcissist/ The irony of diagnosing this is– would narcissist would undergo an assessment? Not.

    This would mean we cannot use the term at all, then. But I know so many people that just putting a name to what they have experienced and lived with was very helpful. Helped them know they were not insane.

    “I wouldn’t say it is unreasonable to think that some of the major preaching personalities have NPD- it would explain a lot.”

    I based that comment on working with several mega church leaders in the 90’s. I knew little of narcissism back then. But when I started looking into it, I was stunned at the mapping of their behavior to the traits. The irony is that being in a mega church with so much distance between them and the average pew sitter is what saves them. They are adored which means they get their narcissistic supply. They do tend to go through staff but that is always done in such a way as to not taint them. And those around them, their yes men, are so thrilled with the results, they rarely challenge them. Of course it cannot go on forever as we are seeing in some organizations. But they can have a very good run.


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    “The bible says that we should go to our brothers first, which I’m sure you’ve done.”

    Lew, Are you trying to apply Matt 18 to criminal behavior hidden by the church leaders? Not sure how you are trying to apply it here. If you are trying to apply it to bloggers discussing a PUBLIC lawsuit, then you don’t understand the passage which is typical. It is badly taught in most churches to silence people.

    ” Paul says that we shouldn’t sue one another.”

    Acutally Paul does not make a blanket statement to that effect. If you look closer he asks,”Is there non wise enough to judge among you”?

    In this case, obviously not. Who would be the wise one to judge SGM behavior that Mahaney and co would submit to? Mohler? Driscoll? Duncan?

    Besides, what you are really suggesting is that anyone who claims to be a Christian (or is a leader with a title) should be exempt from the civil law or basic common sense of protecting children and it is ok for them to protect predators. That would be the result of your thinking. In fact, that thinking is why there IS a lawsuit. Many people thought that way in SGM until they got out.


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    “There is a reason this well respected lawyer is taking on this case. The danger here is the court of public opinion. People are sick and tired of pedophiles being allowed to run unnimparied in churches. This will be a jury trial in a civil class action suit. The trial itself will damage, seriously, SGM. In my opinion, they deserve it. If I were SGM I would be very, very afraid of the jury.”

    Bingo. There is more to this than “winning”. Every aspect of what it means to be a “shepherding cult” is going to be outed and analyzed. It is going to sound like a reeducation camp in Mao’s China to most outsiders. Just the special SGM terminology is going to be interesting to see dealt with by a Jury, if it gets to that point. It is to SGM’s advantage to keep that from getting to that point. Mohler’s, too.


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    “Regarding the whole distrust of secular therapy thing, this is not uncommon in evangelical churches- one need not be a scientologist in order to have this view. My old church held this view and it led to a lot of pain. It comes from an inconsistent application of the sufficiency of scripture. For some reason scripture is not sufficient to deal with a broken leg, but it is a broken mind.”

    I have to agree with this one, JeffS. Many seeker mega’s got into the counseling business because they advocated “Christian counseling”. And we see the same problems. I would get pilloried for saying this in evangelical circles but the Bible does not have an application for everything. They tend to forget it was written to 1st Century audience. They don’t even take into consideration that when you see Paul use the word “heart” it really refers to “mind”, in most cases. Back then, they though the heart was where decisions/thinking came from. The “head” is what supplied the “body”. So you can see where applications might go awry.


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    “Personally, I would wonder very much if someone who molested a 3-year-old child and then hid from the consequences behind a church structure was regenerate. Maybe that’s just me.”

    Ditto


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    “Lew, where does God talk about the 66-book collection called the Bible? I’d also like His opinion on that 66-book collection…”

    Retha, I think most of us confused the “Word” with a book when it is really referring to Jesus Christ. The Bible is inspired but it is not the “Word”. Jesus is. That is why He sent the Holy Spirit, so we could get 9t. John does refer to what is “written down in this book” in Revelation. And there are other references but I think people forget when reading the NT, that not everyone in every city had read all the letters yet.

    A funny side note to this is when discussing comp claims and using 1 Timothy. What was written to Ephesus was not written to Philippi, for example. So how would they know? :o)


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    Anon 1 on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 09:39 AM said: “[…] Just the special SGM terminology is going to be interesting to see dealt with by a Jury, if it gets to that point.”

    The more I read of the background behind the lawsuit against SGM, the more new terms and abbreviations and acronyms I run across that insiders use. It’s daunting. A glossary would help. Those terms are sure to come up in documents and depositions. Maybe a glossary is something we posters-readers-commenters on survivor blogs could help crowd-source to create …


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    Great idea, Brad. An attorney going into court in a suit where there is a different terminology needs to have a dictionary of the argot or slang of the group, get that information into the hands of the jury, use it in depositions, etc. It would be of great assistance for former SGMers to create such a document for the plaintiffs and their attorney to use in preparing for court.


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    Anon 1 on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 09:39 AM said: [[Every aspect of what it means to be a “shepherding cult” is going to be outed and analyzed. It is going to sound like a reeducation camp in Mao’s China to most outsiders.]]

    For a refresher course on what “re-education” in Maoist China was about, I did a three-part series on Robert J. Lifton’s classic eight criteria for identifying total-control “cults.” He based these on analysis of the social conditioning and “brainwashing” of political prisoners from Mao’s China of the 1950s. Lifton’s criteria have been used as markers of social, philosophical, and religious cults for over 50 years. The parallels to toxic organizational structures apparent here are rather stark.

    The first post is here, and there’s also a downloadable PDF of the series near the top of the post:

    http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/05/16/the-hunger-games-trilogy-5a/


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    Yes Anon1, and as you know, even texts that refer to scripture do not refer to the 66-book collection. For example, 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,.
    That cannot refer to this particular 66 books, as some of them was not even written, and the rest were not on one list of “this is all scripture, anything else is not.”


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    P.S. to An Attorney.

    Besides a glossary and “dramatis personæ” list/history of key figures in the SGM system, I know a chronological chart showing when specific leaders and churches entered the scene would be helpful too, at least to me as an outsider trying to get up to speed with the history of how SGM as an “association” unfolded. It is a maze of details.

    Are there other kinds of tools that would help us as a “learning community” (as well as a jury) get up to speed with tracking the progress of this lawsuit and interpreting details in the historical context?

    Any suggestions on ways to crowd-source these efficiently? A wiki or something?

    Would providing these kinds of backgrounder resources as a community of survivors potentially change the landscape of lawsuits like this in the future? Or is stuff like this already been done/being done?


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    Brad, Thanks for that resource. I was thinking of Lifton when I wrote the comment. Undermuchgrace.com also has a lot of resources concerning cultic thinking and methods. Another great source when it comes to understanding how SGM was able to get so many people to follow them is the Milgram experiment. The Lucifer Effect, by Zimbardo, is also instructive in how “group think” can manifest itself in institutions.

    The only concern I have about developing a glossery of terms is that I have personally witnessed over the last 8 years how the Reformed movement in general changes definitions to fit the situation. I have seen this play out in many convo’s and debates.

    The plantiff’s might have their own understanding of common terms as used in SGM that the leadership would say they “misunderstood”. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. From reading around the SGM world, I also see “concepts” that will have to be explained such as “spiritual covering” and what that encompasses in the SGM mindset. For example, would the mother of a molested child believe she is following God’s command to allow the molester dad to stay in the home because he is the “spiritual head” of the family and that is utmost of importance. Why would she believe that? Spiritual covering of the SGM leadership.

    The mind control that has gone on is incredible. It is hard for folks who live in a free country to realize how much of it goes on in these groups.

    All these things play into why the plantiff’s went along with the pastor in the beginning. And how some of them had to either get out to see it fully OR they found out there were other victims and they were not alone. The closed system really helped this go on for a long time. Believing that talking about it was gossip and sinful.

    CJ has a lot to answer for not just to courts, either.


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    On second thought, the bloggers over at survivors could be a great resource for the glossery. Most are former members of SGM from different churches. Agreeing on common usage of certain terms would show how they were understood by the average pew sitter in SGM not to mention how they were used. Also former SGM pastors who went through the Pastors college would be of help to such an endeavor.


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    Anon 1 – – Beyond the theological and organizational terms and definitions … which are a struggle and, as you suggested, they keep changing … I am just having a “learning cliff” of a time trying to sort out all the acronyms. LT, SGM, AoR, RBDs. And realizing CJ is not the same as C-J (the abbreviation for the Courier-Journal newspaper), though both are (now) based in Louisville.

    P.S. Thanks for the additional resources on group think and social coercion/conditioning. Will add them to my list to check out.


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    Anon 1and anyone –

    If you want a little blip into how CJ feels about counseling, and how he could misuse his position, take a listen to this. This is even worse as it has had “music” added to it for effect. This was from 2009.

    http://www.youtube.com/watchv=K0aO8UCjVDE&sns=em

    You might need to cut and paste it. I don’t know how to make a link from my phone. Sorry.


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    I also have a question for the attorney’s here. Since they are asking for a Jury trial and SGM has moved to Louisville, can SGM request the trial take place in Louisville?

    Brad, What concerns me most is that the Jury will become inundated with the terminology and figuring it all out. People have a tendancy to check out when something is so chaotic and intense. It is also easier to obfiscate. It is one reason why so many have been led astray. Many of us have been, in fact. And I have tried to think on this deeply and come to a very childish explanation: We have allowed people to make Christianity too complex. And we went along with it thinking there were truths we could not understand without the help of a human. (Nevermind the Holy Spirit, right?).

    I will never forget watching an interview with some famous academic theologian (name escapes me) who said all his years of study brought him to one conclusion: Jesus loves me this I know.


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    Brad,
    Better to have someone coordinating the collection and organization who knows how to do that. Perhaps three people, one working on the org chart/history, one on bios of key players, and one on the vocabulary. Perhaps creating three web sites with the basic of each site the information as gathered, with places for contributions. It may become a bit time consuming. I am sure there are already resources on the web that would help, and key people who could provide fact-checking. For work-load reasons, I cannot take it on, as I am hugely backlogged and have a couple of terminally ill clients I am spending the day helping.


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    Thanks Bridget. The link came through. I did read up on this a few years back when there was a big convo about Christian counseling and what folks were teaching about secular counseling.

    I came to the conclusion that many are afraid the secualar counseling hurt their control over people. One aspect of secualar counseling seems to be independence of thought. That will never do for many church leaders.


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    You know, a lot of people think Scott Peck is reprobate but I think there is much to be mined from some of his books on this subject. His, “People of the Lie” changed the way many Christians saw evil.

    There is much to be minded from his “Road Less Traveled”, too. Independence of thought is one of them.


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    Bridget, these sorts of vids that show SGM doctrine need to be copied by someone. I have a feeling many are going to disapear soon.


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    Not likely. The suit has defendants in Md, that is where a lot of the events took place, and the plaintiffs have filed suit there. If you look at the Grenier suit in Visalia CA, what his attorney there did was add a local person as a defendant to be able to keep the suit there, although they will have to prove some relationship between the two defendants. If they do not, a good attorney could file a motion to sever the cases against the two defendants, allege that the local defendant was added solely to avoid suing in the home county of the other defendant, and force it to be dismissed and refiled there. It is called forum non-conveniens (sp?).

    WRT SGM, there are too many factors tying everyone to Md to do that. In fact, if there is any evidence that CJ moved to avoid the suit, that fact will be used against him and SGM in court.


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    At this point, after the suit has been filed and served on the defendants, destroying or removing anything can be charged as spoliation of evidence, which then allows the court to find that the action was an attempt to remove damaging material and that the other side can tell the jury that that is evidence of guilt. In some jurisdictions, it is also a crime.


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    Brad –

    Last year someone had a link at SGM Refuge that had a time line of SGM (Sovereign Grace Ministries), formerly PDI (People of Destiny International), formerly TAG (Take and Give). It went back to the beginning of the Movement and covered major people and events. If you emailed Jim at that site he could probably give you the link with that information.


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    Thanks for the lead, Bridget … even just that series helped! Will follow up on this.


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    Bridget there is so much wrong with what is taught in this video, I do not konw where to start. Lots of truth mixed with lies to make up a doctrine that is real convenient for them.

    One example where truth is mixed with lies is mixing the doctrine of “felt needs” that many seeker megas used to recruit people mixed with the idea of secular counseling. It is not the same thing at all. He is declaring something that is not so. I see this all the time from these guys and people believe it.

    By the way, wonder how he deals with Ephesians which says “be filled with the Holy Spirit”? That would be a “love cup”. (wink)

    Fact is, the Holy Spirit bothers these guys because the Holy Spirit would take their place.

    By the way, if one is “born again”, a “new creature” in Christ, how on earth could they remain “wicked”? That is denegrating what happened on the Cross. Denigrating the sacrifice of our Savior, Jesus Christ. But they have managed (the entire Reformed movement, btw) to convince people that even though they are saved they remain totally depraved, totally “unable” and wicked. No wonder molesting little girls is not seen as a big deal. It is normal in their world for a believer to behave that way.

    This vid helps to see why victims are devalued in SGM. In their world, the victim is just as evil and wicked as the born again molester.


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    Anon 1 –

    Besides the issue of control in counseling, the other thing that came across in that little clip was “money.” He was using the “spending of money” as a negative.

    There was really just so much wrong with that small clip. As it ended you feel like “love” has nothing to do with anything! I just looked at my husband and said “what are the two greatest commandments?” and why did Jesus come into the world? ALL the answers involve LOVE. So why does CJ stand there and tell people that one of our greatest needs isn’t to be loved, especially when God tells us to love our neighbors. The whole thing is twisted and sick.

    It does make sense, now, why they might not have wanted to engage in counseling for any of the victims. They also probably felt like they (leaders) had all the answers since they have the Bible. It seems that if they quoted scriptures and prayed for people they expected clear results. If emotional healing didn’t come — well it had to be sin. So now the victim is in sin . . . more and more so it seems if victory doesn’t come. These are victims of crimes . . . not the average person that comes in to the pastor’s office for help and counseling.


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    “By the way, if one is “born again”, a “new creature” in Christ, how on earth could they remain “wicked”?”

    Thanks Anon 1. That reminded me of this:

    “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” Ezekiel 36:27 nasb

    Or- move you to follow; or- so that you will follow; or- enable you to live; or- so that in My statutes ye walk.

    “All that have an interest in the new covenant, have a new heart and a new spirit, in order to their walking in newness of life. God would give a heart of flesh, a soft and tender heart, complying with his holy will. Renewing grace works as great a change in the soul, as the turning a dead stone into living flesh. God will put his Spirit within, as a Teacher, Guide, and Sanctifier. The promise of God’s grace to fit us for our duty, should quicken our constant care and endeavour to do our duty. These are promises to be pleaded by, and will be fulfilled to, all true believers in every age.”

    http://bible.cc/ezekiel/36-27.htm


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    Anon 1 –

    We were writing at the same time. Seems we came to similar conclusions — imagine that!


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    Maybe it sounds a bit unfair to those money- and power-crazies, but Randy Newman had it right in – I don’t really remember – the 1970ies. Can you spot a preacher in the text below?

    I don’t love the mountains
    And I don’t love the sea
    And I don’t love Jesus
    He never done a thing for me
    I ain’t pretty like my sister
    Or smart like my dad
    Or good like my mama
    It’s Money That I Love
    It’s Money That I Love
    (Randy Newman)


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    “Braved, Checked, Rebuked, Defied?”

    HowDee YaAll,

    The Lord is my strength and song, 
            And he is become my salvation: 
                 He is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; 
            My father’s God, and I will exalt him. 
    The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name. 

    C.J. Mahaney’s chariots and his host hath he cast into Court.

    “Cassius is aweary of the world:
    Hated by one he loves; braved by his brother;
    Checked like a bondman; all his faults observed,
    Set in a notebook, learned and conned by rote
    To cast into my teeth.”   William Shakespeare (Cassius, in Julius Caesar, act 4, sc. 3, l. 95-9)

    I will set myself upon the wall, one hand upon the trowel, the other upon the sword of truth.

    Our God shall prevail…

    None shall deter him.  zip, nada.

    Yahooooooooooooooooooooo!

    Ecce advenit dominator Dominus: et regnum in manu eius, et potestas, et imperium.
    Deus, iudicium tuum regi da: et iustitiam tuam Filio regis.
    Ecce advenit dominator Dominus: et regnum in manu eius, et potestas, et imperium.

    waiting
    for how long I’m not too sure…
    yet, it’s gonna b’ a long way back from where I’ve been
    don’t think darz nowherez else ta go
    so here I’ll stand
    with my face to da wind
    with my back to the world
    I’ll follow you, Jesus
    not gonna b’ afraid
    not turn’in back… *

    S“㋡”py
    ___
    *Thanx, Will Kappen, fer da inspiration in “Stand” 


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    I was just at the SGM website and there’s a page where they introduce their friend Pastor Thabiti Anyabwile.

    Check this out. Their good buddy Thabiti holds B.A. and M.S. degrees in psychology from North Carolina State University. Here’s a little blurb:

    If you could study under any theologian in church history (excluding those men in Scripture), who would it be and why?

    Oooohhh…. I’d have two, I think. I’d want to be in Geneva with Calvin. The man knew his Bible, the classics, the Fathers, the languages, and how to train men. Right now I can’t imagine a better person to learn from, speaking purely in terms of his worthiness as a theologian. Plus I’d really like to know what happened with Servetus and provide the once and for all account of what went down!


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    Julie Ann, Thanks for sharing that!

    Amazing how blind they are about Calvin. They forget he had the backing of the state to be a “great theologian”. My take is that if you love Calvin’s doctrinal views, you have to love a form of Platonic thought which is not similar at all to Christological thinking. Calvin definitely had view of the “imcompetent masses” having to be led by the enlightened few.

    Seems like Thebiti gets it about the Puritans but cannot map the same type of thinking/doctrine to Calvin.

    There are plenty of sources for what went down with Servetus, including the sources from the Petit council of Genevea. Calvin was up to his eyeballs in it. In fact, the Reformers usually leave out of their history the fact that Calvin had written to a friend that if SErvetus ever showed up in Geneva he would not leave alive. Nor the fact that Calvin was furious (again a letter) that SErvetus dared to send him his own manuscript with corrections and notes in the margins. Servetus saw Calvin as his intellectual peer. That did not set well with Calvin and he wrote about it to a friend. So, we have murdering Servetus as a premeditated and planned sin by the icon of the Reformed movement. In fact, Calvin had no need to point Servetus out when he came to hear Calvin preach except to puniish him.


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    . . . the “Fathers?” Calvin new how to train (indoctrinate) men . . .

    Not much of a surprise that the only person they revere is Calvin.


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    Gabriel Proksch,

    I think that’s a very valid concern re: cases like Heroux. But here’s where I’d distinguish this case, if I’m Attorney Burke: in all the cases I’ve ever read where a court declined to involve itself in “internal church affairs,” the holding was justified on a the denomination having a well-defined polity and internal dispute resolution mechanisms. See eg the disputes over property with parishes leaving the Episcopal Church (TEC): TEC and other Anglican denoms have a highly-developed system of canon law, church courts, well-defined roles for everyone from the laity to the Presiding Bishop…and it’s all there in black and white, for anyone to see.

    SGM, by contrast, has been infamously vague about their polity for decades now. They’re ecclesiology isn’t even prepared to say what SGM *is*: is it a denomination? A para-church organization? A brand name with franchises available?

    I’d have to think that a Court would have a far easier time justifying some “internal meddling” in this case, because it seems to me that the 1st amendment concerns are greatly reduced when there are not clearly established internal structures. Remember, the Courts don’t mess with TEC et al. because their canon law is based on religious grounds. SGM has no canon law…


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    @ Ryan:

    Those are good points. I’ve worked at an Episcopal church that tried to leave TEC and lost its case. While I sympathize with them on the one hand, it also seemed on the other hand like the congregants wanted to have their cake and eat it too – they wanted to call themselves Episcopalian/Anglican but operate with a more congregational polity when it came to their hot-button issues. Unfortunately, however, it doesn’t work that way.

    I think that even if SGM wins this case, their credibility might be destroyed to the point where it might not matter. It is, as Dee said, the court of public opinion that matters. And judging by how the court of public opinion treated the Catholic church and Penn State – well…


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    If the pastor or church organization is authoritarian in structure, as SGM is, and any action is approved by the pastor, then the church itself can be held liable. No theology need be in between. The violation of individuals protected by state law is not trumped by any religious claims, not even under the first amendment, because the laws are of general application to everyone, everywhere. Children are not to be abused, and covering up, failing to report, interfering in police investigation and possible prosecution are criminal offenses of general application. It is not a matter of religious belief or interpretation.


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    NPD refers to a particular set of traits, behaviors etc.

    That’s not the same thing as narcissism per se, although narcissistic thought/behaviors/attitudes are certainly part of it.

    That is all I was attempting to say.


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    An Attorney,

    Absolutely true, but in terms of finding the national org liable for what occurred in “local churches”… I’m guessing SGM–the national org– is going to come out and say that the local churches were doing their own thing, no agency relationship existed, etc.

    If this question arose in a TEC church, for instance, you could look at the applicable canon law, and find out that perhaps individual dioceses are responsible for carrying out sex abuse prevention policies and reporting crimes to the police (I have no idea if that’s actually the case, just throwing that out there as an analogy). At that point, the Court has to stop, because they cannot evaluate whether the national denom should be responsible for what takes place in the Diocese of XYZ, because their canon law says they aren’t.

    By contrast, since SGM has never had a clear polity, clear procedures, etc. So then, in establishing an agency relationship between the national org and local churches, doesn’t the Court have a clearer justification for diving into SGM polity and questioning how decisions are made?


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    RE: Anon 1 on Sun Oct 21,2012 at 09:49 AM,

    “…I would get pilloried for saying this in evangelical circles but the Bible does not have an application for everything…”

    You are in good company. They’d have me burned at the stake if they could. The belief that the Bible is an all inclusive magic answer book for all of life’s situations & dilemmas is not much older than 40 yrs. I would argue that it was birthed out of Chuck Smith’s resurgent fundamentalism via his Calvary Chapel movement in the very early 70s.


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    This vid helps to see why victims are devalued in SGM. In their world, the victim is just as evil and wicked as the born again molester. — Anon1

    So all “born-again”, “Saved”, “Elect”, etc means is a Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free card. Go directly to Heaven, do not pass “Go”, do not collect $200.


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    THREE THINGS:

    !) Unlike numerous others who post here, I believe Scripture is ABSOLUTELY SUFFICIENT for how life should be lived. It’s all there.

    2) It’s good to see, while I’ve been away, that this column ACTUALLY IS about THE LAWSUIT (as the title spells out.)

    3) Thabiti holds degrees in psychology from NSU? That speaks volumes.


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    Eagle, I couldn’t agree more…


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    HUG, I think NPD is insidious. The reason? They look so normal to people who know them but do not live with them or are not their ‘targets’. It can take a long time to realize there is a serious problem when you live with them! And their tactic has been all along to make you think you are the one with the problem. When dealing with children, this can be soul shattering. — Anon1

    Been there, done that, sixteen years without relief. And nobody would ever believe me. “He’s sooo POLITE!” “See, he ‘Swore to God’, he can’t possibly be lying!” “You’re the one with the problem!” I was the Crazy Kid, he was the Sweet Little Angel.

    Remember the movie “The Bad Seed”? The original black-and-white version, without the deus ex machina ending obviously tacked on by the Hays Office? That Sweet Little Angel of a little girl IS an accurate portrayal of a kid with NPD.

    Therefore there is really no one to turn to because they seem too great to others. All this is planned and implemented to preciseness. — Anon1

    With every move on the chessboard planned out for twenty moves ahead. Every piece moved according to plan, thought-out and set up for the past twenty moves.


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    Thanks for the link, Bridget (Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 12:37 PM) on the SGM crisis timeline. Will check that out…


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    Thanks for the link on the SGM crisis timeline, Bridget (Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 12:37 PM). It’s a relief to have historical groundwork laid out (which is one of the reasons why I always recommend that non-profit organizations invest of finding an archivist person, because you never know when present or future directions/decisions will depend on past events and changes). Will check that out…


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    And nobody would ever believe me. “He’s sooo POLITE!” “See, he ‘Swore to God’, he can’t possibly be lying!” “You’re the one with the problem!”

    P.S.

    “Tell them if you want. It’s your word against mine. And NOBODY will Ever believe you. EVER.”

    All delivered with wide-eyed Innocence and butter-wouldn’t-melt-in-his-mouth Utter Sincerity.


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    Hmm….there’s another element to the preaching that psychology / psychotherapy is evil. Abusers hate psychologists because they will be exposed….

    I grew up with a mother who, though undiagnosed, I believe exhibits all the characteristics of NPD. She’s undiagnosed because she would never set foot in a counseling session. I grew up being taught that psychiatrists were, at best, ‘quacks’, and at worst, actively out to perpetrate evil control against Christians. (No, Scientologists do not have a corner on the anti-psych mentality). When I finally decided to start counseling a few years ago, my mom flipped out – she started warning me that they would plant false memories in my head and then went off on how they would hypnotize me and make me believe in past lives…her reaction was so over the top it didn’t even make sense.

    Oddly enough, it wasn’t the counseling that led me to believe my mom was NPD, or a ‘malignant narcissist’, it was research on my own, both in finding out what the characteristics are and calling family members and just bluntly asking them questions and discovering the my ‘godly pillar-of-religion, go to person on the Bible’ mother was a bold faced liar on so many things – some so unnecessary as to defy logic – unless you understand the narcissist’s need to present a ‘perfect’ image at all costs – especially to themselves…..and that people are of no consequence except in regard to how they can help preserve that image.


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    Eagle –

    I’m glad your relative is able to get the help they need because, unlike some people, I believe God can work however he wants, through whomever he wants, to bring healing and hope. I don’t believe he confined himself to what we see in Scripture. I do believe scripture has great purpose for us and can lead us in our understanding of God, but God said he would write his laws on our hearts. Pharisees had the written law, yet Jesus referred to them as whitewashed tombs. It seems that they didn’t have the laws weitten on their hearts. Jesus also said he would send his helper, the Holy Spirit, who would guide us. Jesus said that he, himself, would never leave us nor forsake us. We are to know the Scripture, yet find our life in Jesus. I would be lost, even with the Scripture, if I didn’t commune with Jesus and ask the Holy Spirit for help.


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    @Ryan M. on Sun Oct 21, 2012 at 02:30 PM

    Question: Did CJ or anyone else at SGM have the right to appoint or remove a pastor at an SGM church, or otherwise discipline anyone in that church? Without contrary policies in writing, that makes the church an agency of SGM, thereby the actions of the church subject SGM to potential liability. Second, if it can be shown that anyone outside the local church but within SGM was consulted by the local church or its personnel or leadership, then that act makes an agency relationship.


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    “Unlike numerous others who post here, I believe Scripture is ABSOLUTELY SUFFICIENT for how life should be lived. It’s all there.”

    In the 1st Century. To use it as “how to” manual is very interesting. Do you greet your male friends with a Holy Kiss? I would guess your wife has to cover, too. Guess you have no need for the Holy Spirit, Jimmy, since you have the manual.


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    For those who assert that the church has done nothing wrong by protecting the sexual offenders and insisting there not be judgement, what do you do with this?

    But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” (1 Corinthians 5:11-13 ESV)

    We are called to judge some things within the church, and when the church fails to judge things it ought to judge, it is failing to be salt and light. If child molestation doesn’t fit within this scripture, I don’t know what does. Forcing the abused to “forgive” is the exact opposite of what this scripture says to do.


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    An Attorney –

    “Did CJ or anyone else at SGM have the right to appoint or remove a pastor at an SGM church, or otherwise discipline anyone in that church? Without contrary policies in writing, that makes the church an agency of SGM, thereby the actions of the church subject SGM to potential liability. Second, if it can be shown that anyone outside the local church but within SGM was consulted by the local church or its personnel or leadership, then that act makes an agency relationship.”

    There was a signed membership agreement between SGM and local churches (not sure of the exact content). SGM representatives would be involved with removal of any pastors/elders. SGM representatives were always consulted for counsel.


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    “Unlike numerous others who post here, I believe Scripture is ABSOLUTELY SUFFICIENT for how life should be lived. It’s all there.”

    Scripture is not sufficient to tell us how to mend a broken arm.

    It IS sufficient to tell us how to be reconciled to God.


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    Ryan

    However, the national organization, SGM,  had the power to “degift a pastor.” He owuld then cease to be pastor. They would then assign another guy. Therefore, they had some control over the local churches.


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    Jimmy

    OK,I have let this comment stand because I am actually interested in your reason for saying “Thabiti holds degrees in psychology from NSU? That speaks volumes.” What do you mean? Be careful, Deb’s daughter is a student there  and my son is transferring into State (that’s how the natives say it) in January. I am looking forward to this answer.


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    An Attorney

    SGM central got rid of pastors all the time. Oh, excuse me, they “degifted” pastors all the time.


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    JeffS

    Wonderful answer at 4:29 PM.


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    Jimmy

    Oh yeah, you also write the abbreviation as NCSU. Go WOLFPACK!!!!!!!!!!


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    Don’t know whether I can improve on JeffS, but the Bible isn’t even sufficient to tell us all about Jesus. After all, he did many other things as well, which if they were all written down, John (who knew Jesus personally on earth and whom Jesus loved) supposed that even the whole world would not contain the books that would be written. Sorry, but it ain’t all there.

    At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, you can’t replace the Holy Spirit with bible-study and scholarship. The Pharisees tried it long ago. They ended up trying to kill God, and so would we.


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    I just spent 90+ minutes going through nearly all of the texts on the SGM Crisis timeline that Bridget posted a link for earlier …

    http://www.dipity.com/JennGrover/SGM-Crisis/

    … and then well over an hour processing my thoughts for this comment.

    First, whoever you are, Jenn Grover, thanks for your work in putting that together. It was immensely helpful as a “Grand Tour” to get an overview.

    Second, I don’t know if I will, but I might go back another time to read/view the documentation materials at each link supplied in the many Dipity information frames. More detail may change my interpretations or fine-tune them, but I still thought it would be beneficial to offer some first-take impressions on what I read, as that might be similar to what a jury member would have to consider upon a first exposure to this information.

    Third, I think I “get it” about organizational development and church conflict. Since shifting to evangelical and theologically conservative churches almost 40 years ago, I’ve been in the middle of, or observer to: church systems that failed, others that split, one church that was literally taken over (i.e., commandeered/stolen) by an insider group, others that were held captive to/by malignant leaders or “kidnapped” by outsiders who infiltrated in, some that had toxic doctrine that created toxic internal cultures, and a few had multiples of these factors all rolled into one spiritually suffocating combination.

    So — with all that 35+ years of framework in my own background — after reading this timeline, I come away with one overwhelming impression, based on the assumption that this timeline seems documented well enough to give a significantly accurate and sufficient base of observations from which to develop opinions. And here it is, the big-picture impression:

    It seems to me that there really has not been much recent “forward trajectory” at SGM based on “fixing eyes on Jesus” as a guide-wire for going into the future. Instead, for at least two decades, the SGM systems (leaders, laypeople, churches, trainings, associations, boards) all have been tethered to the polarizing agency of Mr. Mahaney. If you map out the various interrelationships of *dramatis personae* since about 1997, it appears that ALL the lines of friendship, and dominant theological stances, and who’s in authority, and relational conflicts, and individual and church departures, eventually all connect somehow with him.

    Thus, as in tetherball, SGM insiders get hit clockwise then counterclockwise, reverse and repeat, to a dizzying degree, based on the metaphorical hits Mr. Mahaney takes or makes. There is a lot of action, but basically the whole thing has gone nowhere for at least the last 15 years but ’round and around on the integrating pole of Mr. Mahaney and the same plotline chain of dramatic controversies.

    And if one man has that much direct and indirect preeminence in such a huge amount of activity, I wonder if it’s fair to say then, that there has been an idolatrous amount of attention paid to him. If so, that enormous expenditure of energy on adoration or revulsion, protection or correction — at the leadership level of SGM especially, and with outside celebrity leaders and non-profit organizations — might make sense as system-wide set-ups for many things remaining overlooked or ignored instead of properly overseen, being done in a dysfunctional way, swept under the carpet, slipping between the cracks, etc. Hence, here they find themselves in this lawsuit –- the SGM organization and several of its most prominent individuals.

    After my own series of difficult experiences in churches, I’m used to such mega-drama, though I still get emotionally churned up over it (anger, sadness, numbness). However, this contentious history put me on the verge of exasperation. I just wonder how a civil lawsuit jury will respond to what seems to be an organizational context of extreme distraction due to uber-leader-level drama during the exact same time period of the alleged cases of mishandling instances of sexual abuse plus questioned practices of pastoral care or cover-up …


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    I would argue that the Bible teaches all that is necessary for salvation, and how a Christian should live. It does not teach us all about “life” in the sense of how to cook meals, fix cars or get a job in the 21st century West, nor about science or the details of life before the Fall, etc. That is not its intention.

    Hester, I have noticed this in the UK, that some evangelical Anglicans do try to have their cake and eat it too. I sympathise with them up to a point, but only so far. I do not agree for example with the practice of evangelical Anglicans planting churches in other ministers’ parishes and then claiming that they are “non-denominational”, simply because the evangelicals don’t agree with the existing incumbent’s theology. That seems a bit deceitful to me. On the other hand, sometimes you have to wonder at just what is taught from some Anglican pulpits….

    Could someone enlighten this poor Brit about NSU/NCSU? 🙂


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    Brad –

    You summed that up pretty well in a short amount of time 🙂 Now you can see why many people refer to CJ as the Pope. I presume that you could see how every significant person who had some conflict with him, or his ever changing doctrines, was eliminated from the playing field. You might also be able to see why people never felt like justice was served when they were in conflict with him. He wrote a book on “Humility” during the early 90’s when many observations were being brought to him. His entire leadership team (the enablers) and outside supporters (RBDs – Reformed Big Dogs) continue to shield him and make excuses for him and this “family of churches,” as they call themselves. TGC (The Gospel Coalition) has also been supportive of this “difficult season” that CJ has endured (eye-roll). As far as I can tell, anything CJ has endured he has brought on himself.


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    Brad, I saw something similar in some mega church’s. My impressoin was that it actually paralyzes the organiztion to a certain degree. No one wants to be outside the ‘will” of the leader. And when the organiztion is large, this makes it paralyzed to a certain degree.

    Then you get the whole thing about who is closest to the throne. Who can speak for the leader, etc. That usually changed depending on who was in and who was out.

    In the meantime, the impressoin was given to the pew sitters that they were all a big happy cooperating team for Jesus.

    I do not think folks understand just how devestating it was for CJ to have to step down, AoR being brought in and then move to Louisville. Do folks realize how much money has been spent to try and keep the name of CJ pure and in some sort of power position? Amazing


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    Brad, if you really want to get exasperated, read the sgmwikileaks docs. But eat your wheaties, first. It is a study in and of itself of what happens to men in ministry with too much power, time and money on their hands. I could not believe the level of disingenuousness!


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    Kolya – Indeed (re. the Bible). I see no recipes, nor instructions on how to build houses, make pottery, weave cloth, etc. etc. in its texts.

    Jeanette – re. exposure, bingo! I think the constant admonitions to stay away from psychotherapy are about as sensible as telling people with acute appendicitis that they really don’t need surgery, hospitals, doctors… the whole deal.

    The fear that so many “xtians” inculcate in others is, in itself, pretty damning evidence that they have something to hide (imo).


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    Thank you Dee and Deb. This blog has been a small part of my investigating church history and specifically the Roman Catholic church and doctrines. With the nudging of the Holy Spirit I have come to see that they alone are the true church that Jesus Christ founded. What is written here about various protestant preachers is but one small sub-section of the 35,000+ protestant denominations, all claiming they are led by the Holy Spirit into truth, but none having agreement on even the basics of truth (unless you agree with the viewpoint of the person you are talking to). Protestants have built churches on individual interpretations of Scripture and it leads to just the sort of things this blog calls out. Rightly so. Through a veil for sure, but ultimately this blog indirectly gives light to the Truth.


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    @Numo,
    Just spent the morning reading up on Fanda Eagles (New Tribes Mission abuses) and the GRACE report which I believe you mentioned in a post last year on Bill Zeller. Thanks.

    The extent of the systemic and cultural abuse just blows me. I’m always interested in how the authoritarian structures of these organisations develop and are maintained, including how cover-up is fostered. Both of these issues are still ‘pending’ re: outcomes for victims, and maybe they always will be, but I think it’s the beginning of the end for NTM. Maybe, as speculated, it will rebadge itself. As to Bill Zeller’s perpetrator, you can’t hide from the interwebs and your other victims for much longer. The truth will out.

    My respect to those who had and have the courage to front for the SGM lawsuit – you are victims no longer.


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    @ Kolya:

    What actually happened over here, with many of cases where more conservative congregations tried to leave TEC USA, were property disputes – i.e., whether the congregation or diocese/TEC owned the breakaway congregation’s building. To my knowledge, there is a very clear canon law stating that the diocese owns the building, but problems arose because this canon law was written years after many of the congregations had bought/built their churches with their own money. Thus why many of the breakaway congregations alleged that the diocese was trying to “steal” their property.

    To my knowledge, most of the breakaway congregations have lost their cases and been forced to move out, and the Supreme Court has refused several TEC cases because they want the church to handle its own disputes with its own rules (like commenters above mentioned). To be honest, from a separation of church and state standpoint, I really can’t fault the Court – the last thing we need is the state meddling in canon law. Whether this “handle it in-house” stance would apply to a looser (and much more recent) organization like SGM, however, I don’t know.

    Of course, many of these congregations, if some kind of anti-discrimination law was passed, would be the first ones to call “freedom of religion” and demand the state not punish them for their stance on gays. But then when their own denomination’s rules go against them, they run to the courts to ask them to supersede/overturn canon law?

    Let’s just say I couldn’t say these things in front of my Christian friends… They’d be royally p*** off to say the least.


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    @Mark 7.15pm, there’s a chap you may take to over at the facebook SCCL site called Adam Gonski, he makes similar comments. I’m at the stage where I prefer to stay away from any church building or large fellowship to protect my mental health but that’s just me. Then an athetist friend rang me up on the weekend and invited me to church with her (Anglican – pretty similar to the Catholic church depending on where you live). Nothing like being surprised now and then!


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    typo *atheist* (or non-theist – take your pick)


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    BTW, Dee & Deb, this was our lectionary reading today at the Lutheran church and it made me think of you and the SGM kerfuffle. Apparently the wicked Israelites hated “the one who rebukes in the gate [“court” in the translation my church uses]”…

    Amos 5:4-15

    “For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel: ‘Seek me and live; but do not seek Bethel, nor enter Gilgal, nor pass over to Beersheba; for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, and Bethel shall come to nothing. Seek the Lord and live, lest He break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, with no one to quench it in Bethel – you who turn justice to wormwood, and lay righteousness to rest in the earth!’

    He made the Pleiades and Orion; He turns the shadow of death into morning and makes the day dark as night; He calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth; the Lord is His name. He rains ruin upon the strong, so that fury comes upon the fortress.

    They hate the one who rebukes in the gate, and they abhor the one who speaks uprightly. Therefore, because you tread down the poor and take grain taxes from him, though you have built houses of hewn stone, yet you shall not dwell in them; you have planted pleasant vineyards, but you shall not drink wine from them. For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: afflicting the just and taking bribes; diverting the poor from justice at the gate. Therefore the prudent keep silent at that time, for it is an evil time.

    Seek good and not evil, that you may live; so the Lord God of hosts will be with you, as you have spoken. Hate evil, love good; establish justice in the gate. It may be that the Lord God of hosts will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.”


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    I grew up with a mother who, though undiagnosed, I believe exhibits all the characteristics of NPD. She’s undiagnosed because she would never set foot in a counseling session. — Jeanette Altes

    Which is why most NPDs are never diagnosed.

    …a bold faced liar on so many things – some so unnecessary as to defy logic – unless you understand the narcissist’s need to present a ‘perfect’ image at all costs – especially to themselves….. — Jeanette Altes

    “Not out of Heavenly Virtue, but Hellish Respectability.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries

    And not just “bold-faced”, Jeanette. Utterly Totally Sincere, Utterly Totally Truthful, Utterly Totally Innocent, Butter Wouldn’t Melt In Her Mouth Innocence.

    Because NOBODY is as Compassionate and Understanding and Sincere and Truthful and Innocent and Helpful as an NPD. Until the instant you have Outlived your Usefulness.


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    Dee,

    This may have been a regional difference within SGM, but when I was a member/pastoral intern in a SGM church in Florida, the relationship with the hierarchy was a lot more cloudy (now that I think about that, maybe there’s a connection between that and the fact that FL churches have been some of the first to depart in recent weeks). Don’t get me wrong, those of us in the pews had no doubt who was in charge… but, for instance, the whole de-gifting thing was done a lot more indirectly and under-the-table. I knew of instances where that occurred, and the reasons why it happened were as plain as day to those of who spoke SGM-ese and knew the culture, but I would have had a difficult time telling you whose idea it was, who carried it out, whether the final decision came from Gaithersburg or somewhere else, etc.

    There were also major vacillations over time as to what the roles of the various “apostles,” “regional leaders,” “the B-team leaders,” etc. actually were and who had what authority.

    All that to say, I still think Eagle’s suggestion is a good one, because I think in Court the power structure in SGM is going to bewilder the average juror, and it’s not been plainly written out anywhere to my knowledge. And to get the national org on the hook, someone is going to have be able to make the case clearly that they were the ones ultimately calling the shots.


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    @Hester at 8:12

    I completely agree. I have a lot of friends in the Anglican world, and at some points I’ve badly wanted to interject with “but do you *really* want the Courts to do that?”


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    There is no “one true church” represented by an earthly entity. Rather, the one true church is composed of all who believe in Jesus Christ, that He is One with God and the Holy Spirit, that He did for us, and who seek to live as He taught – to love God with everything we have and to human beings as much as we love ourself.

    EVERY earthly organization, including the Catholic church, gets part of what it teaches wrong, because loving (maintaining) the structure is as important as loving each and every human being. And organizations tend to foster sin in order to protect their existence and power, hence the inquisition, indulgences, etc. And there are teachings that have no biblical basis and no theological basis, such as tithing as a command in the modern church (as opposed to a guideline), that Mary’s mother was a virgin when she was conceived, etc. And I would add to that list the partiarchy — the male hierarchy and the denial that God could conceivably use a woman to preach and teach, or for that matter, lead the church. It denies the full humanity of women, and I believe it is a sin.


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    Thank you Arce for your comment. What you share is always an encouragement. I appreciate how the good Lord has shaped your faith. You are a blessing.


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    Could someone enlighten this poor Brit about NSU/NCSU

    The area of North Carolina called “The Triangle” is the area around Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill. (Although Cary claims to have replaced Chapel Hill due to it’s growth over the last twenty years but that getting deep in the local puffed out chest weeds.)

    In this area you have North Carolina State University, North Carolina University (- Chapel Hill), and Duke. With Wake Forest and Eastern Carolina University nearby. So you have NCSU, UNC, Duke, WF, and ECU flags all over everywhere most Saturdays in the fall. For that game we call Football in the US and you think of as that bizarre spectacle with a ball that isn’t round. On a typical home game around here there will be over 50,000 people in the stands. (And we, the ACC, are small fry compared to the SEC, Big 10, Big 12, etc…

    Wander around here if you want to learn more about our strange sports habits.
    http://espn.go.com/college-football/
    Check out the Standings link to see how the ACC schools are doing.

    And just to make this even more strange to people from other distant lands, football around here isn’t nearly as big a deal as basketball at these schools. Not even close.

    As to Jimmy’s comment, the NCSU team mascot(logo) is a wolf and the team is know as the Wolfpack. And they beat Maryland yesterday on a truly bizarre last 2 minutes of play. Ditto Duke winning over UNC for the 2nd time is 20 years or so.

    But as best I know Dee’s ties are strongest to UNC.


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    Made a mistake that locally would get me in the stocks. It is University of North Carolina or UNC. For a while University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill but that trailer got added about 10 years ago and recently dropped due to alumni pressure and maybe some language inserted into a state law. After all UNC is THE NC university, no need to specify which campus. 🙂


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    Is it “too late to apologize”?

        Hello,
     
           Found this blog comments spot on:

    “I don’t get it. I’ve never been able to get it.
    If they (SGM) had just taken ownership of everything and been totally forthright and honest about everything, apologizing and seeking forgiveness and offering to make amends, this all would have gone away a long time ago. The worst stories would likely never have come to light.” 

                                                             Kris@SGM Survivors

    “What’s ironic is that I’ve heard from a number of people that SGM’s number one reason for not admitting fault has been the fear of resulting lawsuits.”

                                                                  “Kris@SGM Survivors”


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    @ HUG:

    “And not just ‘bold-faced,’ Jeanette. Utterly Totally Sincere, Utterly Totally Truthful, Utterly Totally Innocent, Butter Wouldn’t Melt In Her Mouth Innocence. Because NOBODY is as Compassionate and Understanding and Sincere and Truthful and Innocent and Helpful as an NPD. Until the instant you have Outlived your Usefulness.”

    Is it true that many NPDs are compulsive or near-compulsive liars? I’ve heard stories like this before – NPDs lying automatically, even when they don’t have to, just to make themselves look good, without any regard to the contextual plausibility of the lie.


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    Noteworthy News articles:

     SGM, A controversial church-planting network with ties to a Southern Baptist Convention seminary has been sued in Maryland for allegedly covering up allegations of sexual abuse of children in the 1980s and 1990s? “Link”

    As you all know, one of Mahaney’s staunch defenders throughout the last SGM ordeal was none other than Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., and, alongside Mahaney, a leading figure in the new Calvinism, also known as Reformed, church movement. “Link”


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    Hester-
    Yes. I have seen her revise history even when the history was less than a day old. Even in the span of a conversation, you can quote to them what they said 5 minutes ago and they will vehemently and convincingly deny having ever said it. If you are going to confront a narcissist on anything, it is important that there are witnesses. I one of the articles I read, it said, essentially, if you leave a conversation with someone and you feel confused, unsettled, and questioning your own sanity, take a deep breath…you just been talking to a narcissist.

    Often, I would make choices on how to deal with her and what to do based on what she had said. Then she would ask why I was doing that, I would quote what she said, she would frown, with a very sincere look of perplexity mingled with irritation and state categorically that she said no such thing, that she would never say something like that. I have a near photographic memory and her behavior would routinely cause me to doubt my own memories….which, I think, was at least part of the point.

    And they have no ability to empathize. It hard to spot at first because they learn early on to mimic ‘acceptable responses’ to situations. But they will always seem, even if sincere, a bit off, like an alien trying to imitate human behavior and almost getting it right….among many other thing she recorded in my baby book, was this telling entry: at 15 weeks, the baby is spoiled rotten by her grandparents. She cries sometimes when I put her down.


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    “SGM Magma Displacement?”

    HowDee YaAll,

    “I always have had only the highest estimation of C.J. Mahaney as a man and a minister, that continues absolutely unchanged. There is nothing in this current situation which would leave me to have even the slightest pause of confidence in him.”  Al Mohler

    There is nothing disqualifying in terms of anything that is disclosed in this now?

    hmmm…

    (Open the eyes of his heart, Lord!)

    Care ta modify dat statement a widdle bit? Now dat da barby is red hot Al buddy, wouldn’t want youze ta fall in!

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

    *
    (…all else is sink’in sussssss sand?)

    hmmm…

    S“㋡”py


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    Often, I would make choices on how to deal with her and what to do based on what she had said. Then she would ask why I was doing that, I would quote what she said, she would frown, with a very sincere look of perplexity mingled with irritation and state categorically that she said no such thing, that she would never say something like that. I have a near photographic memory and her behavior would routinely cause me to doubt my own memories…. Which, I think, was at least part of the point.

    Jeanette, Hester, have you ever heard of the term “Gaslighting”?

    It’s like NPDs and charismatic sociopaths have this Reality Redefinition Field radiating from them, sometimes focusing down into a Reality Redefintion/Induce Guilt Ray.

    War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength, Oceania has Always Been at Peace with Eurasia, the Chocolate Ration of Twenty Grams has been Increased to Ten, Two Plus Two Equals Five and YOU’RE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT IT’S ALL YOUR FAULT…

    (Aside: Jeanette, could she turn emotional responses (such as remorse and/or sincerity) on or off like flipping a light switch?)


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    among many other thing she recorded in my baby book, was this telling entry: at 15 weeks, the baby is spoiled rotten by her grandparents. She cries sometimes when I put her down. — Jeanette Altes

    Isn’t that also what Ezzo and the Pearls (of quarter-inch plumbing supply line fame) also say and teach?


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    Jeanette, Hester, Deb, Dee:

    Regarding NPDs, sociopaths, and the like, didn’t Jesus speak about a “Father of Lies” who could “Transform himself into an Angel of Light”?


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    My sister’s unfortunately married to a sociopath…perfect description there, HUG.


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    Some are going to disagree but I’m of the opinion that those who think SGM could have simply apologized, come clean, and all this lawsuit wouldn’t have happened just don’t get it. They may see that problems exist, but I don’t think they realize how corrupt SGM is.

    If you have been in SGM like I’ve been for any length of time and have had your eyes
    opened, what you come to realize is that SGM lied to you! They haven’t been dedicated to serving Christ. It’s a counterfeit cult led by a man whose true intention was to amass wealth.

    Seriously, stop thinking things are going to change and suddenly things are going to revert back to being something true & good. Have you not read the verses in the bible that specifically address these very kind of people?

    What is it going to take for some of you people to realize what you are looking at is the judgement of God against false teachers and false brethren. They have caused serious harm and damage. We do not owe them our prayers, our pity, or our participation.

    How do you think God views all of this? You don’t think He’s angry? CJ & his proxies can blather on all they want about how good God is to them and how Satan hates the Louisville church plant, but it won’t make it true no matter how much they say it!


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    HUG – gaslighting is, in a simpler form at least, a surprisingly common human trait, I think. I used to work in a newsagent’s shop in south Glasgow, and we had persistent problems with a particular local shoplifter. On one occasion he swiped a load of cigarettes off the shelf right in front of my face and immediately – vehemently and with great righteous indignation – denied having done it… even though he had been looking me directly in the eyes as he did it.

    I don’t think he was a calculating NPD per se; he was just a young man stealing to support a drug habit and trying to get away with it any which way he could. But his behaviour was eerily reminiscent of the leader of the church I was a part of at that time. One church member – a good friend, a decent and honest believer, but at the same time, nobody’s fool – ended up taking minutes at each 1:1 meeting with the leader, to protect himself from the gaslighting trick. To this day, I really do think that leader has perfected the Orwellian art to which you alluded: that of deliberately concocting fictitious or misleading claims, while at the same time believing them to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    How did that happen? To be frank, I think a number of us have to share some responsibility. In the early days of that church, when it was small, we all exercised an unhealthy deference towards this gifted young man who was highly spoken-of by the leaders of the denomination. Too few of us questioned his inconsistencies, and too many of us made excuses for him that we would not have made for others. We colluded, that is, in his establishing of double standards that favoured himself. I say “young man”; that was over 20 years ago, and I was only 22 at the time, whereas he was in his early thirties. But nowadays, I consider that far too young to be the primary elder of a zealous and outward-looking church with a big vision. I am not that man’s Judge, and I don’t know what was in his heart when he set out on what he believed – sincerely, I think – was God’s call on his life. But, deprived of any real discipline and honest feedback, and surrounded instead by committed yes-men, it’s hard to see how he could have kept his feet on the ground even if he’d wanted to.


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    @ Eagle:

    “Wouldn’t it be beautiful if evidence written about on the blogs could be entered into a trial as evidence. Or assist an attorney in preparing her case?”

    Isn’t that called an amicus brief? Might be worth looking into. An Attorney might be able to help here.


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    re: the discussion on NPD’s – I’ll have to dig out a DSM from somewhere to refresh my knowledge, but I totally relate to what has been shared to date. Yes to the gaslighting effect and the superb subtleness in which they do it. They also have ability to climb the management structure. If only all conversations could be recorded more easily, but the tip on writing up notes was spot on. Unfortunately you cannot ignore a NPD person and hope they’ll go away – you need to watch your back for all their perverse pathologies, as well as looking forward and keeping to your own direction also. Ignore either at your peril.


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    GuyBehindTheCurtain, thanks for your information :-). I had some inkling that college football (non-soccer kind) was quite important in the US, now I know!

    To confuse matters more, we have a game with a similar non-round ball but call it rugby.


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    Evie said:

    “If you have been in SGM like I’ve been for any length of time and have had your eyes opened, what you come to realize is that SGM lied to you! They haven’t been dedicated to serving Christ. It’s a counterfeit cult led by a man whose true intention was to amass wealth.”

    I am looking for the bottom line for why Al Mohler staunchly defended Mahaney last year when he stepped down as President of SGM. Ligon Duncan quickly joined Mohler in defending Mahaney. I believe it may have something to do with T$G (oops – T4G).


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    Guy Behind the Curtain said:

    “Ditto Duke winning over UNC for the 2nd time is 20 years or so.”

    GO DUKE!!!


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    Eagle, that’s exactly my concern.

    Hester, an amicus brief is usually something done at the appeals level, not the trial level. Here in Massachusetts (where I’m admitted to the bar), you’d be hard-pressed to get a trial judge to accept one, and even harder pressed to get him/her to let the jury see it. You’d ordinarily need actual in-court testimony. But again, what’s true in one state ain’t necessarily true in another…


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    HUG-

    Yes, she can turn her emotional responses on and off like a light switch. Its eery. Think of a 2 year old throwing a tantrum until a) they get what they want or b) someone else walks into the room. As to gaslighting, yes, that is the correct term. Another one often used is crazy-making.


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    Guy

    Oh, have you stepped in it. The color is blue but it is NOT Carolina. We will now add some red to the mix.


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    Ironclad

    These men, such as Mohler and a local guy who will remain anonymous, were his boys-hook, line and sinker. Never once did I see them show any concern for the numbers of people who were hurt. But, i guess, the  Pharisees have more fun at dinner partties with each other.


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    Jeanette,

    I am so sorry that your mother would write something like that in your baby book. What makes it all the more sad is that today, people like Ezzo and the Pearls would write the same thing. I wonder-is the evangelcial faith populated by many with NPD who then justify it with their little theories? And then these pastors actually buy into it. But, perhpas it takes one to know one.


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    Ryan, do you think that structure of the organization, bios on key actors (i.e., defendants), dictionary of SGM lingo, any policy or procedure documents they may have put out. Do you think that obtaining these from people who were affiliated with SGM over the last 30 years or so would be of use to the attorney in conducting discovery and prepping for trial?


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    Re NPD. I think narcissists are attracted to the ministry. Where else can you be paid to be in front of a crowd every week for 1/2 hour or so, be the boss (formally or informally), get people to pay you and adore you for that as well, travel only when you really want to, etc., etc. And there are huge tax advantages too. And narcissists are generally capable of putting on the humility act when needed — it is a great tool while getting and keeping control. Favorite quote: “Well, this is all of y’alls decision to make, but if I were making it . . ..” Guess what most churches will end up doing.

    The pulpit encourages over development of the ego. But if you hang around seminaries much, you will find that the incoming classes are well-endowed with ego to begin with. And narcissism it there as well, in large doses.


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    Do you also have an SGM abuse story to tell?

        Hello,

           Ms Burke’s specialty is class action, where a few representative plaintiffs, whose names are protected, represent a larger group of people. You too will find an able advocate in Ms Burke. I would like to also encourage everyone or anyone who has been involved in not just sexual abuse but also in SGM domestic abuse, to contact Susan Burke and tell her your story. Many may think, “my story isn’t important. It doesn’t matter.” But sure it does. So, adding your story just maybe what the judge & Jury (should it come to that) needs to see that these (currently) three stories are NOT just isolated incidents but deep ingrained patterns of abuse that has happened within Sovereign Grace Ministries Churches over the past thirty years. Sure it’s scary, sure maybe you are doubting wether or not your story is worthy of an additional  sheet of paper, of being part of a possible class action law suit. But again, I would like to encourage you to contact Susan Burke and tell your story and let her decide if it’s something noteworthy. Maybe your SGM abuse situation was mishandled or overlooked too.  I believe you can contact Susan Burke at either sburke@burkepllc.com or 202.386.9622.

    She could also use our prayers, if you are so inclined.

    Blessings!

    IronClad


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    Yes, she can turn her emotional responses on and off like a light switch. Its eery. Think of a 2 year old throwing a tantrum until a) they get what they want or b) someone else walks into the room. — Jeanette Altes

    Scary, isn’t it? To see the switch go CLICK! and this Sweet Innocent Benevolence replace the abusive rage. Then the third-party witness turns his/her back or leaves the room and CLICK!

    Only thing that could make it worse is if your family is influenced by PA Dutch culture (Harrisburg area), where Passive-Agressive backstabbing and crazymaking is honed to a fine art. (My writing partner is a country preacher in that area, and he has to deal with that all the time in church feuds and power plays.)


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    Makes me sick. Praying for the victims for healing and recovery.

    Re: Jimmy. Seriously? Are you actually Jay Adams or CJ in disguise? Your ad hominem and red herring arguments are so obvious that it’s awkward. I am grieved by your attitude and I hope, for your sake, that the Lord is gracious with you.


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    Re NPD. I think narcissists are attracted to the ministry. Where else can you be paid to be in front of a crowd every week for 1/2 hour or so, be the boss (formally or informally), get people to pay you and adore you for that as well, travel only when you really want to, etc., etc — Arce

    And the Ministry has an additional advantage form NPDs. Divine Right. Closest thing to being proclaimed a god yourself, the end-stage goal of any NPD. You have (literally) Cosmic-level Justification as a Man-o-GAWD. The LOOOORD(TM) Himself backs up everything you do.


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    What makes it all the more sad is that today, people like Ezzo and the Pearls would write the same thing. I wonder-is the evangelcial faith populated by many with NPD who then justify it with their little theories? — Dee

    Given what you’ve been covering on this blog, re SGM and MH and Acts 29 and the others, I’d say the answer is YES.

    “Nowhere do we tempt as successfully as at the very foot of the altar!”
    — Screwtape


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    Evie

    I hope that yoou didn’t misunderstand me. Having grown to understand the SGM mindset over the past number of years, I have come to the conclusion that, had CJ and gang, “showed” compassion (read: acted, pretended, whatever) and expressively apologised, many of these folks would have backed off. Now, I am not saying that this is the correct response, I, personally, would have said thanks and reported the alleged unsafe environment directly to CPS. In fact, that is what I believe that everyone should do after going one round of trying to fix the problem.  A certain former church well remember my attempt at changing the system… I am definitely not one of those who “goes quietly into that still, dark night.”

    There is great value in this lawsuit, no matter the outcome.  It will givethe litigants and lawyers an opportunity to expose the issues inherent in SGM. It will not be pretty and it will hurt the “brand name” of SGM. I think it will be interesting to see Mahaney being deposed by a woman. I am actually praying that it will be heard in front of a female judge. Hardness of heart to young pedophile victims will not play well in the media.  Make no mistake about this, SGM will be damaged by this.


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    Arce,

    I completely agree. My experience with the Calvinista movement (I was, and in some ways still am, in the thick of it!) is that it is FULL of narcissists, many of whom could be clinically diagnosed with NPD.

    I’m sure individuals with NPD just tend to be in positions of leadership regardless of the context, but there is something about the Neo-Reformed movement that seems to draw an unusually high number of NPD individuals.

    c.f. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001930/

    A person with narcissistic personality disorder may:

    – React to criticism with rage, shame, or humiliation

    – Take advantage of other people to achieve his or her own goals

    – Have excessive feelings of self-importance

    – Exaggerate achievements and talents

    – Be preoccupied with fantasies of success, power, beauty, intelligence, or ideal love

    – Have unreasonable expectations of favorable treatment

    – Need constant attention and admiration

    – Disregard the feelings of others, and have little ability to feel empathy

    – Have obsessive self-interest

    – Pursue mainly selfish goals


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    It is a woman who is scheduled to hear the case. This was posted on SGMSurvivors. I believe the source must be the Montgomery County Court System.

    Female judge: BURRELL, SHARON V

    Dates:

    Court Scheduling Information
    (Schedule is subject to change)
    Event Date: 01/18/2013 Event Time: 09:00 AM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
    Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
    Description: SCHEDULING HEARING
    Event Date: 01/18/2013
    Description: PLT EXPERTS IDENTIFIED/FILED BY
    Event Date: 02/12/2013
    Description: MOTION FOR ALT SVC DEADLINE
    Event Date: 03/14/2013
    Description: DEF EXPERTS IDENTIFIED/FILED BY
    Event Date: 05/28/2013
    Description: ALL WRITTEN DISCOVERY SERVED BY
    Event Date: 07/12/2013
    Description: DISCOVERY COMPLETED
    Event Date: 07/23/2013
    Description: ADD’L PARTIES JOINDER DEADLINE
    Event Date: 08/09/2013 Event Time: 08:30 AM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
    Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
    Description: STATUS HEARING
    Event Date: 08/09/2013
    Description: MOTIONS/INC DISPOSITIVE FILED BY
    Event Date: 08/09/2013
    Description: MEETING OF ALL COUNSEL
    Event Date: 08/09/2013
    Description: RULE 2-504.3(B) NOTICE DEADLINE
    Event Date: 08/19/2013
    Description: JOINT PRETRIAL STMT FILED BY
    Event Date: 09/06/2013 Event Time: 01:30 PM Judge: BURRELL, SHARON V
    Location: 50 Maryland Avenue 9th Floor Courtroom: 2
    Description: SETTLEMENT/PRETRIAL HRG


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    Plaintiff’s attorney is female…
    Judge is female…
    Will defendants preach about Woman’s God-Commanded Submission and Keeping Silent?


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    I’m sure individuals with NPD just tend to be in positions of leadership regardless of the context, but there is something about the Neo-Reformed movement that seems to draw an unusually high number of NPD individuals. — Mr.H

    I think it’s because of Hypercalvinism’s obsession with Predestination and The Elect. Besides the “Get Out of Hell Free” card (no matter what you do), what bigger masturbation of an NPD’s ego that Everything *I* Want, Everything *I* Do was Willed by GOD?

    And Calvin throwing his weight around in Geneva feeds the POWER fantasies. As the probable NPD in my family put it “POWER means I Can Do Anything I Want. ANYTHING.”

    P.S. I’d like to see CJ arrive for the deposition preceded by his Armorbearers blowing trumpets and announcing how Humble he is.


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    We Wonder…
    How long will it take for The Gospel Coalition/Al Mohler/Ligon Duncan/Mark Dever to mention the SGM/Mahaney ‘situation?’ Day 4

    What SGM/Maheney “situation”?
    There is no situation.
    There never has been a situation.
    There never will be a situation.
    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunevents.
    memhole.
    L! L! B! B!


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    HUG,

    Good points. It’d be interesting to do a study on

    (1) the correlations between Hyper-Calvinist theology and NPD

    (2) influential Calvinists and their personality vis-a-vis NPD


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    Mr. H, I have to agree with you. I have been around the YRR movment up close and personal for the last 8 years or so and I remain stunned. I kept thinking there was a seminary class on how to be a self serving, arrogant despot. It is uncanny how many are acting exactly the same way. Historically you see that sort of things in certain movements and it is not pretty.

    They do not realize, either, how uneducated they really are. And that works fine in their reformed bubble. They are great at regurgitating their favorite ST gurus. But, When they get out of that bubble, all they have are declarative statements from other gurus and ad hominem arguments which go like this: If you understood Calvinism, you would be a Calvinist. I amazes me how their defense is mainly comprised from church history and the Augustinian filter read back into Scripture. They always start with the filter of “God is Sovereign” so that means…..

    I almost chocked on my coffee reading a blog post from a Reformed young pastor of a young man asking him if “God is a narcissist”. Where would taht come from? Well, if you listen to these guys long enough and have no background in basic Christianity, I can imagine where that would come from listening to the likes of Piper, Mahaney, etc, etc.

    http://sbcvoices.com/is-god-a-narcissist/

    So, does the REformed movement attract those with narcissistic traits or are those traits instilled in very young men by their mentors and those they are listening to? I also believe, to some degree, REformed attracts those who desire power over others and want to feel pious. Young men who want to feel important, have “position” and probably would not make a great splash in the corporate world. If you watch what is going on, many want thier own churches very young. That is why there is such a push for “church planting” even in areas with tons of churches. Ministry is safer for these guys if you are well connected.


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    “I think it’s because of Hypercalvinism’s obsession with Predestination and The Elect. Besides the “Get Out of Hell Free” card (no matter what you do), what bigger masturbation of an NPD’s ego that Everything *I* Want, Everything *I* Do was Willed by GOD”

    …..And then there is that, too. :o)

    CJ says: I am the worst sinner I know.

    Anon 1 says to CJ: Well, Stop sinning. (Bob Newhart advice)

    It is not something to brag about. It is something ones strives to stop doing. (Esp ministers who make their living telling others how to live)


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    Half the Jury should be female, too! Too many women who have too much power over CJ’s future. How can we help but not find that interesting considering what they teach about women?

    Wonder if it will give CJ’s wife some independent ideas?

    EVie, I totally agree with you about the whole idea of SGM leaders saying sorry and it being accepted by the victims. It should NOT be accepted. The whole idea is ridiculous. That would not protect one girl in the future from their method of protecting predators or believing they were just “experimenting” on a 3 year old. Their beliefs are ingrained. That is not changing overnight even if they fake it for a while to gain acceptance.

    These men are sickos.


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    as to the polygraph, and deposition if it comes to that….perhaps that will be one time CJ won’t be “giggling”. He is certainly a “giggly” sort of guy.


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    Good points, Anon 1.

    What you’ve said resonates with my experience among the YRR crowd – many young, young (in their mid twenties!) kids who wants to jump in and be a senior pastor.

    You raise an interesting question re: “which came first?” Are young NPD kids drawn to this because it is infested with NPD? Or are they drawn for other reasons and then slowly succumb to NPD-like symptoms? Many of the YRR crowd have no formal training and instead are “educated” by their mentors or idols (Driscoll, Mahaney, Piper, etc.), so I can definitely see the potential for NPD symptoms to trickle down.


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    I would argue that “an apology” is not the same as repentance.

    Calvinistas run full-speed into all kinds of stupid mistakes, then want to just apologize and then keep running in the same direction at the same speed.

    True repentance, in biblical Hebrew, means “turning around” or “changing direction.” That is clearly not happening here.


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    Eagle, Something very bad did happen to some Calvinist friends of mine who were on the mission field. It was horrible. And they were die hard Reformed SBC. The wife no longer believes but pretends for his career which is in a different para church ministry back in the states.

    Her “Determinst” God is not working anymore. A Calvinist would say she never really believed. She would argue with that one. I often pray her Calvin filter is removed so she can hear the Holy Spirit. But it is hard since their income sort of depends on his being Reformed.


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    Eagle, it’s important to note that Calvinism is notorious for its difficulty in dealing with theodicy.


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    The fallout continues?

        Hello,

    Evie,

           Two of the three largest churches in the SGM network—Covenant Life Church in Gaithersburg, Maryland, and Sovereign Grace Church in Fairfax, Virginia—are still mulling plans to separate from SGM and possibly begin a new association of churches, according to a former SGM pastor and board member, Brent Detwiler, who led the 2011 charges against Mahaney. In addition, Sovereign Grace Church of Daytona Beach, Florida, has announced that it will end its SGM partnership, citing “loss of trust” and “insufficient accountability.”

    The crack continue. Substantial Fissures? TBD? This has been more than a three and a half year effort. 

    (Evie, we are trying to be constructive here.)

     Many of us have met these men. Some have expressed, from the very beginning of T.A.G. days. Some from the beginning of the Maryland church plant days.  Reporters have written stories. A few have written books outlining the abuse. Many, many people have contacted them, and spoken to AoR. For what it is worth, many have contacted former SGM pastor and board member Brent Detwiler. Many former PDI/SGM pastors, and members, are now involved here in this effort. Countless blogs are involved in this effort. Now a major lawsuit.  

    I can assure you that no one is discounting anything.  

    (I am sorry you feel that way.)

    Please understand that soon, the whole world will know once again, that spiritual tyranny, and that this type of church abuse, does not pay. That pastors hurting Church people under their care, and  allowing others to do the same, is something they should think twice about. That our children should not be put at risk.

    Evie, we are pushing back, however, there is always room for one more story, as we certainly have, in this case, what looks to be more than three bags full, and certainly what looks to be more to follow.

    Blessings!

    IronClad


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    I do not think that Reformed beliefs are linked to NPD- the environment in the evangelical church that is ripe for abuse is not limited to Reformed churches.
    In fact, when I went church searching after my recent move I specifically went looking for a PCA church because my last one had such an environment of grace and humility that it was a stark contrast from my previous bible church (which was a Calvinist church in terms of predestination, but not holding to other Reformed beliefs). I found an amazing fellowship that extends grace to all people, has humility in leadership, and does not attempt to control people.

    I think many people in this thread are drawing false conclusions about what has allowed for this abuse to happen and remain unpunished. It is not the theological belief of atonement that is the problem- it is organizations that are top down with no accountability- and these exist in many churches with lots of different doctrinal teaching.

    I know I may be swimming upstream here, but I really think more healing will come when the problems are identified and addressed accurately. Much of what is said has absolutely been on target, but making soteriology the issue hurts the ability of victims to get relief. The fight is not against Calvinism, but churches that abandon their people and create environments that encourage abuse.


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    The Temporary Ban of Jimmy

    Jimmy

    We have tried to be patient with you. As you know, you have not been well received on other blogs. But, we are the optimistic types. We hoped that, as you met interesting people and dialogued with them, that you might learn some better methods for getting your point across. Occasionally, there were some glimmers. However, in the last series of exchanges, we are becoming less hopeful. 

    We believe that you are becoming a distraction on our blog. It is rather odd how the conversations are now centering around you- what you say, how you say it, etc. So, here is what we are going to do immediately. You will not be allowed to comment for the next few weeks. You can communicate with us via email. Hoping that you will change, we will allow you to return at some point in the near future. But that will be up to you to figure out when.One day we will unblacklist you.  Your comments will then go into permanent moderation. From this point on, it is up to you.

    We do not expect you to agree with us. We just expect you to show some compassion and understanding.You certainly have accomplished something. We have done this with only a very few people in the history of this blog.

    Also, know this. I am praying for you and do care about you despite our profound differences. I also ask anyone reading this to pray for JImmy.

    PS-Any attempt to come in under a pseudonym will result in a permanent ban until we meet on the other side.


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    Jeff S-

    Sorry, but I think Calvinism is very good fit to NPD. Yes, Evangelical churches don’t have to be Calvinistic to have a NPD problem (just look at the Word of Faith movement), but the rigid doctrines and absoluteness of God’s will and Providence (not to mention the attribute of immutability) are perfect fits for people that are immutable to other peoples emotions/problems and believe in the absolute correctness of their doctrine and practice.

    Escape From Freedom buy Fromm has some excellent insight into Luther and Calvin, in my opinion.

    http://www.amazon.com/Escape-Freedom-Erich-Fromm/dp/0805031499


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    So Jimmy finally went too far, huh?


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    An Attorney,

    Yes, I absolutely do. SGM is not a straightforward hierarchy a la TEC or the RC Church. Its structure has gone through very large changes over the past 30 years, not all of which have been well-publicized. And discovery is going to be tough unless you get a handle on SGM-ese.

    I’m more than willing to help on any of that, and I know there are plenty more of us out here in the blogosphere who would as well.


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    When they get out of that bubble, all they have are declarative statements from other gurus and ad hominem arguments which go like this: If you understood Calvinism, you would be a Calvinist. — Anon1

    “You obviously do NOT have a Rational Mind. If you had a Rational Mind, you would agree completely with Me.” — attr to Ayn Rand

    I amazes me how their defense is mainly comprised from church history and the Augustinian filter read back into Scripture. They always start with the filter of “God is Sovereign” so that means…..

    “God is Sovereign” or “Al’lah’u Akbar!”?


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    Phoenix

    This ought to be interesting. I wonder if he will use the women are gullible and easily deceived argument?


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    I agree that NPD can easily twist Calvinist doctrine to meet his or her goals- in that sense it’s a “good fit”. But I don’t think Calvinism is unique in that respect. Any organization that offers a platform and exalts its leadership is going to be a “good fit”. And I don’t think that exalting leadership is a tenet of Reformed doctrine, though it has certainly been modeled by the larger, more public Reformed churches.

    I would think that the more common denominator would be church size than doctrine. In fact, my guess is if you took all of the large non-Reformed churches and compared them to Reformed small churches, you’d fine proportionally more abusive personalities in the large churches.


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    HUG

    Thaks for the laugh. 
    “What SGM/Maheney “situation”?
    There is no situation.
    There never has been a situation.
    There never will be a situation.”


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    Anon1

     

    “CJ says: I am the worst sinner I know.” I say let’s take him at his word. I would suggest that he be replaced by some guy in the upper 1/3 of the worst sinner category.

     

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    JeffS

    Let’s say that you are correct. That Reformed ideas do not lead to abuse. But, is it possible that a pastor who is allowed to run unchecked by a yes man board is the reason that certain reformed beliefs might attract those who are NPD, abusive, whatever. Could it be that the “annointed” pastoriate allows this to occur more frequently? Could it be that the intense focus on the sins could attract those who can use that to their advantage? 

    Also, please be aware that we are fighting NeoCalvinism or what we call Calvinistas-not Reformed theology. There is a difference.


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    JeffS

    Julie Anne Smith of the BGBC Survivors site was the recipient of an out of control pastor in a small church.


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    Doubtful, I keep hearing about that book but never bothered. I am going to read it!

    JeffS, Here is my take on it with my limited knowledge. Some of the more liturgical Calvinists are freaking out at the YRR and are quick to say, ‘we are not like them’! These are what I call the more sacramental type Calvinists, baptizing infants, etc. The majority are liberal but some are very conservative such as the OPC. One of my cousins married a “Cumberland” Presbyterian and he was very rigid and an early follower of Piper. That is how I heard of Piper way back in early 90’s.

    This YRR/NC is a different breed all together. As with the entire history of REformed movement, it keeps reinventing how it applies its beliefs and changing definitions.


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    Dee, I do understand your disinclined between Calvinista and Reformed- I think it’s a wonderful distinction and agree completely. In fact, this was basically the point I was trying to make- the Calvinista are not a problem because of their Reformed beliefs, but their particular way of using them.

    Yes, I believe that a pastor running unchecked is absolutely the problem.


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    I’m not saying large churches are a problem- there are lots of factors that contribute, but ultimately it’s about giving an NPD (or someone with these traits) the platform and authority to control others.


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    “And I don’t think that exalting leadership is a tenet of Reformed doctrine, though it has certainly been modeled by the larger, more public Reformed churches.”

    JeffS, I gotta disagree. I think you are a very open person and I have really enjoyed reading your comments. But this one I gotta disagree. Think about it for a moment….

    Reformed doctrine focuses almost to the neglect of God’s other attributes: His Sovereignty. He has foreordained the movement of every molecule since before creation.

    Merge that with this Reformed teaching:

    You are Totally Depraved and Totally UNABLE to take responsiblity for your sin whether you are saved or not. (They will parse this one depending on who talking to)

    We wil ignore the rest of TULIP for now. Those 2 are the big focus of Reformed. If you do not agree with their definition of God’s Sovereignty then you are elevating yourself above man. That is their typical mantra. You don’t want to do that so you accept their definition. Now, you are theirs. And you are totally depraved. Do you see the problem? Many believe this and therefore follow the leader.

    Add to this other control concepts being taught as biblical. Mohler is teaching that pastors are “God’s appointed agents to keep you from ignorance”. Dever is teaching keys to the kingdom which means only certain titled positions can say if you are really saved or not.

    Include in this mix, the concpet of church discipline as they teach it and practice it.

    You have a recipe with many different ingredients diverging at several places for authoritarianism and spiritual tyranny. AFter all, you want to agree that God is totally Sovereign, right? What ninny would disagree with that?

    It is all in the definitions. The biggest problem we have are people following man instead of Christ. If all new believers sought the guiding of the Holy Spirit, CJ Mahaney would not have made it past Take and Give. Al Mohler would still be working at the Index.

    Rarely does one hear in Reformed circles teaching on being guided by the Holy Spirit and being in the Holy Priesthood as in all are equals. This is another reason they hate congregational polity and are doing all they can to eradicate in new church plants in the SBC. They really do believe the average pew sitter is ignorant. You should read their blogs.


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    I pray that Jimmy will meet and fellowship with people like many of the commenters here. He exhibits the very same programming of SGM ‘lifers’ who have not rejected or seriously scrutinized their parent religion of SGM. If he is like another that I know it’s almost like there is a planted trigger that sends them into an alter ego that’s not really who they are. The written word does not seem to work for their deprogramming as the logical arguments here would seem to persuade. But getting away from their own religious controllers and making friends with free in Christ people can start a person to using their own grown up brain that was never allowed to mature. My guess is that Jimmy is an SGM et.al. victim of spiritual abuse. I pray that his eyes be opened. He must be miserable.


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    I didn’t mean to derail this discussion- my intention was when thinking about how to solve the problem of abuse within the church to be very careful about how we frame the causes. We could tell people to avoid large churches, reformed churches, or any other trials of places like SGM, but the real issues to avoid are churches that exalt leaders and have leadership who not show a quality of serving their congregations.

    If Reformed doctrine or church size can more easily give rise to exalted leadership, this doesn’t mean we throw out those churches, but it does mean those churches need to be very intentional about addressing their vulnerability.


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    I’m sorry that I mentioned Jimmy as we were trying to forget him. I sat here wishing I could feel the same prayerful care for my own abuser’s miserable life. I have had that care in the past but not right now. The spiritual abuse that was involved still makes me mad. This wasn’t a time to lesson the weight of our topic today.


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    Jeff, I admit I am very radical and have turned a corner concerning the institutional church that pretty much operates as a business or jobs program. I suggest we go back to the Gospels and letters and beg for our filters to be removed by the Holy Spirit and ask for leading on this question: “What IS a Church”? What would the Body of Christ look like?

    I suggest we stop excusing the early church problems as models for our own. We have more information. We have more resources to study. We are not being persecuted by the government. Most of them did not even have all the letters! They were both pagan and Jews. In case of the pagans they came from a background of having tons of gods. The Jews were bringing in the oral law. etc.

    I have been flogging myself for falling for so much man centered thinking. There are times I think it is more of a sin to go into one of these religious institutions than it is to stay home and pray. Not all of them but frankly it is becoming rare to find one that is not in some way elevating man and/or a building.


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    Anon 1, I appreciate the civility. I guess a lot comes down to experience, because my experience has not been an avoidance of the Holy Spirit (in fact, that was the focus of our sermon on Sunday- how the Holy Spirit helps us make decisions we won’t regret) or this idea that total depravity means submission to leadership. In fact, I’ve never heard a preacher teach total depravity AFTER conversion.

    One more thing I will relate- I specifically asked about church discipline before joining my new church. The answer I was given was that it was never used, but the place where they came closest was over a guy who was beating people over the head with his doctrine. It was not his teaching that was problematic, but his attitude. The church leadership saw this behavior as abusive and probably would have asked him to leave if he didn’t end up going on his own (they had approached him to straighten up).

    What I see with Driscole, Piper, and other NeoCals is quite different than I’ve experienced. In fact, the only experiences I’ve had with abusive personalities in the church have very rarely been Calvinists- those with a “get smart choose God” attitude have been a lot more difficult for me to get along with.

    But you know, I think we actually agree mostly on where the issues are. If you saw more people like those at my current and precious church, you might have a different view. And if I hadn’t, I might have a view closer to yours.


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    I think it is important to note who the influencers are for these bully pastors. My pastor’s primary influence is John MacArthur. I never thought of John MacArthur as a bully and in fact up until the lawsuit, I had a lot of respect for the guy. (Keep in mind I knew nothing about Calvinistas.)

    However, for the first time in my life, I came to the realization that there is a culture of degrading women at my former church and Grace Community church. 4 out of 4 of my PERSONAL interactions with Grace Community folks have shown me there is obviously common thread about the degradation of women, treating them less than men, etc. Rather than wanting to discuss the actions of an abusive pastor and how a pastor went against scripture and was filing a $500,000 lawsuit against 4 women and 1 male college student, they spent a large portion of our conversations wanting to discuss: “How is your marriage doing?” “How is your family doing?” “Does your husband approve of you blogging?” I am still shocked about it, but now thru stories people send to my blog, I am seeing the pattern over and over again in churches like SGM, Mars Hill, Piper’s church, Grace Community, Calvary Chapel, Family Integrated Churches, IFBs.


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    Jeff S – – If you are married, put your wife on the phone with some of these men and see how she gets treated. I told Pastor Bill Shannon of Grace Community Church straight up I felt he was treating me like a less than and that I had a hunch if I handed the phone to my husband, he would listen and respond much better. You see, women aren’t supposed to be bringing up these difficult church issues. That’s a man’s job.


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    Julie Anne, sadly I am divorced. I am very sensitive to the issue of how women are treated, though. I think your observations are very much on target. When a church treats women as inferior it has already set the stage to create an enviornment of oppressive behavior.


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    Haha- I did not mean to call my church “precious”- as very Lord of the Rings as that is, I meatn “previous”.


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    Jeff S… lol


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    Jeff S – – Ok, I’m now making the connection that you also post on Cry of Justice blog and I am familiar with your story (it’s sad!) I didn’t want to make that assumption. If you want to hear how these pastors treat women, maybe we can do a 3-way conversation and I can call one just so you can hear 🙂


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    Anon 1 wrote~

    “You are Totally Depraved and Totally UNABLE to take responsiblity for your sin whether you are saved or not. (They will parse this one depending on who talking to)”

    Do the pastors seem themselves as totally depraved too? Sometimes I see they teach yes (worse sinner in the world) other times no (but yet somehow endowed from on high to show you how horrible you are). Carl Trueman says–

    “Given this, it is not surprising to see leaders fall frequently and spectacularly. It is not simply that leaders have greater opportunities to sin; it is that the very nature of leadership will seduce all but the most careful into believing that they are little gods, that they make the rules, and that they can get away with anything. Surround these leaders with crowds of uncritically adoring supporters and you have the perfect storm: self-deception followed by self-destruction are, humanly speaking, almost unavoidable.”
    http://www.reformation21.org/counterpoints/carl-truemanleadership-holy-men-and.php

    Yes…perhaps Trueman (“I may be a middle-aged balding guy but I can spot a con man when I see one”) can “spot” the Ted Haggards, TD Jakes (and recently) D’Souzas of the world. But I am waiting for Truman’s article on the lawsuit. After all, he can spot a con man…evidently his friend Mahaney is not one- since Trueman found him fit for ministry–(surely no con man could slide past Trueman) so where is the love, support and encouragement? Kevin? Ray?

    If Christians are stil depraved, who exactly are these “all but the most careful” ones?


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    I sympathize with the victims of any abuse.

    Jimmy- you should have just stated at the beginning of every post “I sympathize with the victims of any abuse” and then continued. Then you can’t be excoriated that you don’t care.


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    Jeff S – I agree with you, in that *any* system (sacred or secular) that is authoritarian – or that can be made into an authoritarian system by those with the inclination – is a place that’s ripe for abuses of all kinds.

    I have seen it plenty in churches (non-denom, charismatic/evangelical) that have nothing to do with the YRR and/or neo-calvinist movements. In fact, the 1st one I encountered was back in the mid-1970s.

    These problems are *not* unique to calvinistas, nor are they (imo) anything close to unique to Calvinist/Reformed doctrine of any stripe. *All* doctrine can be twisted and reshaped into something toxic, if there’s no check on “leadership,” and if certain types of people (with serious psychological problems – not limited to those with NPD) start running things.

    Maybe a look at Eric Hoffer’s book “The True Believer” will help folks put this all in context – ? (Not sure; it’s just a suggestion.)


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    Reformed doctrine focuses almost to the neglect of God’s other attributes: His Sovereignty. He has foreordained the movement of every molecule since before creation. — Anon1

    Just like Islam.
    “In’shal’lah…”
    “Eh, Kismet…”
    “Al’lah’u Akbar!”
    “Your Fate has been written on your forehead before the foundation of the world…”

    Rather than wanting to discuss the actions of an abusive pastor and how a pastor went against scripture and was filing a $500,000 lawsuit against 4 women and 1 male college student, they spent a large portion of our conversations wanting to discuss: “How is your marriage doing?” “How is your family doing?” “Does your husband approve of you blogging?” — Jeanette Altes

    i.e. “WHAT’S YOUR PROBLEM? YOU’RE THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM! CONFESS YOUR SECRET SIN! YOU’RE NOT PROPERLY GODLY! WOMAN, SUBMIT!” etc…

    Remember Gaslighting and Crazy-Making?


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    He exhibits the very same programming of SGM ‘lifers’ who have not rejected or seriously scrutinized their parent religion of SGM. If he is like another that I know it’s almost like there is a planted trigger that sends them into an alter ego that’s not really who they are. The written word does not seem to work for their deprogramming as the logical arguments here would seem to persuade. — Patti

    A couple years ago, I ran into a guy who had been Army Intel in Iraq, and he related pretty much the same thing with a lot of Iraqi Muslims he had to deal with. (He did not mention whetehr these were friendlies, hostiles, or both.)

    He said that no matter how educated they were, there was this point where if you pushed a little too far, “The Wall in their Mind would slam down”, after which there was only a repeating loop of “IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN! IT IS WRITTEN! AL’LAH’U AKBAR! AL’LAH’U AKBAR! AL’LAH’U AKBAR!”

    Both Calvin and Mohammed were heavily into God’s Soverignity, God’s Omnipotence, and God’s Will above all other Divine attributes. I would expect similar results when their Hyper-followers push the doctrine until it snaps.


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    Jeff,
    Where in scripture does it talk about your self esteem? Most every reference self esteem is reffered to in derogatory terms. The bible says that we’re ALL sinners. We all do deceitful things each day. Our worth is NOT on our own. Our worth only comes from God. There is scant evidence that in and of ourselves we’re much of anything.

    Secular or ‘Christianized’ psyche says you’re the cats meow. It’s based on a false premise and a faulty view of mankind. Although, some are actually writing books now saying that we aren’t the cat’s meow, which is good.

    At risk of sounding like I don’t believe the Holy Spirit is alive and living in each believer, I do believe. However, whatever you think the HS is telling you NEEDS to line up with scripture or it ain’t the HS, but a bowl of chili. A littany of names could be written of those who thought and think that they’re words are God’s. Piper, Warren, Hinn, Dollar, etc…

    As far as anyone at SGM being held accountable they should be. I didn’t say they shouldn’t. I said it’s a sad commentary, and said the church is NO different than the secular world. I then showed a number of others including public school teachers who do as well.

    Although, millions of people would argue that since the RCC is the Catholic Church, they would argue thay are christians as well. In fact, if I’m not mistaken, Mr. Mahaney and Tomszack came from RCC backgrounds.

    I would say that this goes to show what happens when we hold people in rock star status unfortunately. It also goes to show that maybe the Independents might have something in being autonomuous churches.

    Jeff.. I do not believe sexing your mother is a ‘minor’ issue. Seemed to be a pretty big one. Not paying God what you said you would appeared to be a death knell. The Apostles didn’t kill them, God did. I also don’t think homosexuality is a small issue, nor adultery, etc…

    Now, having said that, I do believe messing with little kids is akin to the millstone around the neck verse. Seems to be in the same category as above possibly. It’s also not a very good outcome for whomever does so.

    Jeff said: “Nouthetic counseling is very different from regular counseling because it blames the victim for the issue.”

    I’ve read people who said it was said, but I’ve never read that a victim is THE problem. Maybe I missed it, but that is possible. Please let me know what page and book it’s in because I’d like to read it. Most attribute it to Adams in Competent to Counsel, but I didn’t find it there either.

    Although, I have seen men and woman who blame the other (no matter the issue) and say they’re the victim. Yet, when in counseling they don’t mention themselves as part of the problem when they are. If that’s what is meant, I think that’s disengenious. I do clearly remember Adams stating that on numerous occasions.

    I’ve read him say that we should try to stay in a marriage, but that was was for both spouses, not only the woman. Seems like God hates divorce, so it’s good advice. I remember him stating that if ya spouse hits another, they should move out, seek help for everyone involved.

    He recommends that you visit a doctor if need be as well. Just not as first resort. Depending on circumstances, all of that is absolutely compentent advice.

    Secular/Regular/Pop counseling (of which I’ve been involved in it more than I would like) says do what you think you should. You’re an animal. You evolved from a monkey, what do you want? You can’t help it you were born that way. Not feeling good? Take a pill. Not able to handle life?

    Take a pill. We’re the most overly medicated society on the face of the plant and a good portion are still smoking pot too! If you can’t be somewhat mellow smoking pot and taking ludes… Homosexuality? No need to change.

    Talk about your problems when your spouse isn’t in the room? Sure. All your problems in life began when your parent didn’t play ball with you and that’s why you drink like a fish today.

    Who says to do that? Psychologist’s do. In fact, there’s a growing number in christian circles that approve of smoking pot! There’s also a growing number who want to “OK” pedophilia if you can believe that.
    In the middle many of the ‘christo-psyche’s’ you get much of the same only Jesus is put in the equation somewhere.

    Actually Jeff, your list is a good one. I have no problem with those 5 things except to say that there is no way you can truly know whether there is true empathy or repentent. They are but outward appearance and no way it can be certain. The last 3 are ok as well, but I would hope it would be done out of court.

    Don’t be disturbed Jeff. Giving it to the Lord means just that. Even if they receive everything you stipulate above and a gazillion dollars more, it doesn’t mean they will forgive. In the end, it DOES need to be given to the Lord. He’s the only one who can free them from the pain and suffering. Can and should it be talked through? ON the other hand, there are plenty of people who never forgive and it eats at them forever.

    I have never done perpetrated its, nor been on the receiving end, but please believe me when I say I know this issue to a decent degree. Thankfully, it wasn’t church involvement.

    In Christ


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    aaahhh…Love your neighbor as yourself seems to be the Biblical equivalent of self-esteem. How can you love your neighbor if you have no love for yourself?

    It easily could have stated esteem your neighbor as much as you esteem yourself.

    The other problem I have, is with your equating all problems to adult children who can’t get over their selfish desires to be the center of the universe. Fine, we’ve all met these folks.

    But by making it seem that all counseling operates this way, you’re ignoring the overwhelming problems many deal with because of very real abuse (physical, emotional, sexual) that adults carry around and do not know what to do with. For many, simply speaking to a counselor allows them to process and begin to deal with the truth of their childhood and how it affects their present relationships.

    Please don’t equate victims of real abuse with immature adults. It’s inaccurate and unfair.


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    Julie Anne,

    What you are saying about these men and their view of women is very interesting to me. I am especially intrigued by your mention of a problem with this at MacArthur’s church. Many years ago I read a book of MacArthur’s called Different By Design. I recall at the time I agreed with the teaching in it (I don’t now recall any of what he said so I don’t know if I still would agree or not), but I do remember several times MacArthur would start to say something about women and preface it with “I don’t mean this to be demeaning to women in any way, but…” and then he’d say whatever he said. The thing that was remarkable to me about that was while I thought I agreed with him on what he said, nevertheless I DID feel demeaned, even though he specifically said that was not his intent and I agreed with him!

    The more I think about this and what you encountered, the more disturbed I get.


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    “Hold Your Horses, Fella!”

    HowDee Jeff,

    Horsehocky, what is dat smell!

    “I do not think that Reformed beliefs are linked to NPD- the environment in the evangelical church that is ripe for abuse is not limited to Reformed churches.” Jeff S

    Ahem! Abusive so called re-form-ed beliefs are linked to wacky SGM preachers, as glue sticks  are to their children’s bottoms. Doesn’t make it right on ether account. Faux grace and humility, is exactly what they practice.

    News Flash! They are “predestinated” to fail.

    A church extending grace to all people, possessing humility in leadership, and makes no attempts to control the people, they have been called upon to serve?

    hmmm…

    Q: …what has allowed for this abuse to happen and remain unpunished?

    Ans: A bad man welding a holy book, and a faux doctrine with an exclusive audience.

    …top down with no accountability, you bet! 

    These exist in many churches with lots of different doctrinal teaching, you bet! 

    Hold your horses, fella! Two wonderful women, and a blog…

    >>====> one tyrannical church at a time.

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

    S“㋡”py


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    Lew,

    “Where in scripture does it talk about your self esteem?”

    I didn’t bring up self esteem, so I’m not sure where this question is coming from. I’m fact, I believe that a healy self image is to view ourselves as God views us, which means as loved and having worth. If God believes that I am lovable, who am I to say any differently?

    “The bible says that we’re ALL sinners. We all do deceitful things each day. Our worth is NOT on our own. Our worth only comes from God. There is scant evidence that in and of ourselves we’re much of anything.”

    Yes, in terms of our standing before a Holy God, on our own merit we deserve hell. Yet this is not the only view of what we “deserve” and our what our “worth” is in scripture. We were created as God’s image bearers and we are not utterly sinful- we still bear the mark of God even unredeemed. All people do. As image bearers of God, all people are deserving of justice, which means more than punishment- it means lifting up and showing compassion to the oppressed. How often does God command the Israelites to give aid to widows, aliens, and orphans?

    The fact is all people have worh- it i given by God in Creation for all and in redemption for the regenerate, but while this should give us humility, we cannot redefine “worth” to be meaningless. If we do not view ourselves as lovable and having worth, we are not viewing ourself in the Truth.

    “Secular or ‘Christianized’ psyche says you’re the cats meow. It’s based on a false premise and a faulty view of mankind. Although, some are actually writing books now saying that we aren’t the cat’s meow, which is good.”

    Well, I went to a secular therapist and he did NOT say this, nor did he prescribe me a pill. In fact he spent most of the time showing me how I was ignoring and not addressing problem areas in my life. I viewed this as pointing out sin, though he wouldn’t have said it that way. He did encourage me that I was a lovable person, but since God agrees with him i cant fault him too much for that. This view that therapy says we’re all ok and justifies our poor behavior is not the experience I had AT ALL.

    “I would say that this goes to show what happens when we hold people in rock star status unfortunately.”

    I agree with this.

    “Jeff said: “Nouthetic counseling is very different from regular counseling because it blames the victim for the issue.” I’ve read people who said it was said, but I’ve never read that a victim is THE problem.  Maybe I missed it, but that is possible. Please let me know what page and book it’s in because I’d like to read it. Most attribute it to Adams in Competent to Counsel, but I didn’t find it there either.”

    When a person comes and says I’m hurt and the response is “what sin did you commit?” then this is blaming the victim. Whatever is officially taught, this is what happens in Nouthetic Counsling. There are too many testimonies of this being done to say it isn’t.

    “Although, I have seen men and woman who blame the other (no matter the issue) and say they’re the victim. Yet, when in counseling they don’t mention themselves as part of the problem when they are.”

    Stop here. Full stop. There are victims who are NOT part of the problem. That 3 year old who was abused? Not part of the problem. This is a HUGE issue with Nouthetic Counseling, always viewing everyone as guilty. This is not biblical in any shape- in a lot of situations there are issues in both sides, but sometimes one party is guilty and needs to be held accountable. God calls us to seek justice for the oppressed. Responding to the oppressed and asking what their sin is is NOT justice- it is co-abuse. 

    “Seems like God hates divorce, so it’s good advice.” 

    This is a mistranslation. The Bible does NOT say “God hates divorce”- read Malachi in the ESV to see, and if you think the translation is wrong then go look up the resources on the topic. It is overwhelming that “God hates divorce” is not the proper translation.

    Divorce for no reason is treachery, but divorce in the case of adultery, abuse, or abandonment is just and biblical. I won’t go into the discussion of Jesus teaching on this, but he was not issuing a blanket prohibition on divorce and this is clear from reading other first centry texts that use the same language he does. Read David Instone-Brewer for a more thorough unpacking of this- I don’t know of anyone who has come anywhere close to the thorough look of divorce in the Bible that he does.

    “I remember him stating that if ya spouse hits another, they should move out, seek help for everyone involved.”

    The problem is that the church has a tendency to push for reconciliation in these cases, something the Bible does not ask for, and is very dangerous for an abuse victim.

    “He recommends that you visit a doctor if need be as well. Just not as first resort. ”

    Why not?

    “Actually Jeff, your list is a good one. I have no problem with those 5 things except to say that there is no way you can truly know whether there is true empathy or repentent. They are but outward appearance and no way it can be certain. The last 3 are ok as well, but I would hope it would be done out of court.”

    Yes, repentance is VERY hard to judge- which is why it is absolutely tragic that abused people are asked to reconcile with abusers after the say they are sorry and will not do it again. I would say protection of abused victim/congregation should come before restoration of the perpetrator in terms of priority.

    “Don’t be disturbed Jeff. Giving it to the Lord means just that. Even if they receive everything you stipulate above and a gazillion dollars more, it doesn’t mean they will forgive. In the end, it DOES need to be given to the Lord. He’s the only one who can free them from the pain and suffering. Can and should it be talked through? ON the other hand, there are plenty of people who never forgive and it eats at them forever.”

    I agree with what you are saying here- more than you probably know. In fact the reason I choose the therapist I did was that he had the guts to stand up in front of a bunch of hurting and abused people in a mental institution and say “you will not heal until you take responsibility for it”. He did NOT mean that they were responsible for what happened to them (though some were), but he did mean you can not wait on the abuser to come along and make it “ok” and you will not heal without a lot of effort and work. 

    To me, forgiveness is saying “you don’t owe me anything for what you’ve done to hurt me, and I don’t expect you to try and make it up. You have no debt with me.” But it does NOT mean closing our eyes and submitting to future pain and it does not mean allowing the perpetrator to escape justice. He or she may not owe the victim, but if there are laws in place to protect the population, forgiveness does not mean ignoring those laws. Forgiving a molester who goes to another church and continues to molesting is not just.


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    Julie Anne, yes I am the same Jeff. I figure you didn’t recognize me yet 🙂

    I think a three way phone conversation would be very revealing.


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    “Do the pastors seem themselves as totally depraved too? Sometimes I see they teach yes (worse sinner in the world) other times no (but yet somehow endowed from on high to show you how horrible you are).”

    Diane, I love it! This is exactly what I would try to point out but I forgot something very important about the doctrine which they always pointed right back to: God is Sovereign, remember? He directs every molecule and forordained every single action before the creation of the world.

    Therefore….since they are pastors….God foreordained they would be pastors and that you would not be a pastor but a follower of a pastor. God even foreordained that you would show up at their church to be a follower of them!

    And don’t forget Hebrews 13:17, the most badly translated verse in the NT (besides 1 Tim 2-3 and 1 Corin 11) which states you are to obey them because they are the leaders AND God foreordained it.

    See how that works?

    Where there authoritarians in the seeker movement I was in? You better betcha. But their problem was their doctrine did not really affirm it in the same way because they also believed in free will.. So they used other very clever methods to control. It was not a full orbed doctrinal stance as you have in the Reformed world of “God foreordained me to have a title of pastor/elder/leader and therefore I am to be obeyed”.


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    Jimmy, as one who was molested by a church member at the age of 12, I’d like to tell you something, but I’m pretty sure Dee & Deb would object to the use of the eff word here. Use your imagination.


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    Somethings weird. Sopwith actually made sense with that last comment.


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    Jeff S,

    I have Phil Johnson’s personal cell #. Shall we? 🙂

    (picturing Phil Johnson ditching his phone # about right now!)


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    Hahaha. You could call and then put the results up in YouTube


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    @ Anon 1~

    ok….

    So they are still depraved wicked sinners (ala Matt Chandler’s words); yet, ordained by God to be obeyed — because God told them He wanted them to be pastors (that He ordained from the very beginning). 🙂

    How do they know they are supposed to be pastors? How do they know FOR CERTAIN God ordained this? (Don’t tell me because they say so lol.) I mean, what is their reasoning? It can’t be because God “told” them because they do not believe God really speaks in a voice…so to speak. So they have this internal witness, or what have you? Is that the God ordained proof of pastorhood?

    Who are false teachers in their world? False teachers cannot just be in the wof/signs and wonders/fill in the blank world. Do they believe God ordained/s false teachers? (Jesus said they are here and will get worse.) If so, how do they know they’re not one? Is it just because they say so?


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    anonymous,

    (re: her comment to Julie Anne & John MacArthur’s “Different By Design”)

    “The thing that was remarkable to me about that was while I thought I agreed with him on what he said, nevertheless I DID feel demeaned, even though he specifically said that was not his intent and I agreed with him!”

    Perhaps truth on an intuitive level had been replaced with dogma, the presentation of which make it near impossible to mentally reject? and the dogma is starting to not take anymore? And disturbed is a healthy and normal reaction?


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    Diane, God foreordained the false teachers, too. (trust me, been down this road with the YRR). See, the false teachers are simply being their natural evil selves. They cannot help it. They are not elect.

    See they (the YRR/NC) have ‘correct” doctrine so they are always right. If you disagree, then you do not believe God is Sovereign. It is circular reasoning even though reason is “The damned whore” according to Luther. There is no winning any point with the YRR because God is Sovereign so…..it goes round and round. If you don’t agree then you are saying God is not Sovereign. That means you elevate yourself over God.

    Why do you think you have to “preach the Gospel to yourself every day”? Why do you think it is “Gospel” everything? Why do you think you must stay at the cross and not progress to sanctification living out your faith with the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

    God is Sovereign. He “Appointed these YRR/NC pastors as God’s messengers to preach so you would not stay ignorant” (or something to that effect was taught by Mohler at a pastors conference last year)

    Yes, there are authoritarians in every denom, group, movement, etc. But the thing that kills me about the Reformed movement is that it is inherent in their doctrinal beliefs. It fits perfect with the state church mentality. It has to use other methods of control in a free society, though. If they can get you to believe you are totally depraved and UNABLE to do anything righteous then they can keep you navel gazing and since God is Sovereign, all this foreordained, then what else can you do if you believe it but go along?

    (Where is Argo when you need him? He explains this much better than I can)

    BTW: Many of them believe the free will guys are false teachers as evidenced by the Trad statement some SBC folks put out outlining their doctrinal beliefs. The YRR immediately came out with charges of heresy. Some of them charged Pelagianism, some said it was semi-Pelagianism and other said it was “leaning toward” semi Pelagianism. The point was, most folks think any Pelagianism is heresy. So there were being called “heretics” and the YRR were very serious. It is a very mean movement. But it would not stand without Calvin’s teachings behind it.


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    I burned “Different by Design” in my fireplace. I would not give it away or sell it. I do not push propaganda or false teaching.

    I once heard McARthur say that long hair on men was a sin (1 Corin 11) and short hair on women was not God’s design. Cheryl Schatz had the same clip I heard on her DVD “Women in Ministry”.

    (Nevermind that Nazerite vow Paul took, I guess McArthur missed that one? You know, if you analyze these guys long enough you start seeing how ridiculous they are)


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    “It is circular reasoning”

    Yes…how convenient.


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    Diane, I love it! This is exactly what I would try to point out but I forgot something very important about the doctrine which they always pointed right back to: God is Sovereign, remember? He directs every molecule and forordained every single action before the creation of the world. — Anon1

    As per Mohammed abu-Hamid al-Ghazali, who completely disconnected cause-and-effect in Islamic theology some 800 years ago.

    Therefore….since they are pastors….God foreordained they would be pastors and that you would not be a pastor but a follower of a pastor. God even foreordained that you would show up at their church to be a follower of them! — Anon1

    In’shal’lah…


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    “How do they know they are supposed to be pastors? How do they know FOR CERTAIN God ordained this? (Don’t tell me because they say so lol.) I mean, what is their reasoning?”

    Oh Diane, I forgot to tell you how they “know”. Because they ARE! See, God foreordained it. It had nothing to do with them. They could not help it. God foreordained the rapes, the poverty, the wars, the rich, etc. Did you not get the memo? We are UNABLE to do anything but evil. If we are saved we are still evil but Jesus “obeys” for us on the CRoss so we don’t have to worry when we do bad things.


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    Anon1 “leaning toward semi-pegagianism” — or maybe semi-leaning? and speaking of Mrs Schatz and semi-heresies, she makes a pretty good case about ESS semi-leaning toward semi-Arianism! (or more)


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    Jimmy really got jettisoned? Until he learns better empathy skills I would imagine.


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    So…lol…if I were to say to, for example, CJ Mahaney, that I believe him to be a false teacher, he can say to me, “am not”…and I have to believe him or I am discounting the sovereignty of God.

    IOW–these men are saying God ordained them from the beginning of time to be pastors, even though they have no proof other than their words. So–all Christians have the potential to be deceived…but pastors?


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    lew

     “You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,” said Aslan. “And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor in earth. Be content.” CS Lewis

    Lew, there is esteem in being created in the image fo God and loved by the King of the Universe. And we can rejoice in this fact instead of focusing on our worm like status who are disgusting cretans who should be bound for hell. In HIm we find esteem. In Him we find honor. And He lifts us up. 

    As for pills, lew, can you tell me your medical qualifications for deciding whether or not a psychotropic drug is indicated? Not your “opinion” but your medical background. I am involved in a ministry with doctors and know some nationally respected psychiatrists who are Christians.  When these folks prescribe a medication, you can be darn sure it is indicated. Of course, you know that things like bipolar disease have been determined to be biological in origen and “the pill” is effective in treating this. The same goes for schizophrenia, etc.

    Secondly, could you please tell me your understanding of the use of the medical ingredient in pot for overcoming nausea for those who are sick from being treated for cancer? I happen to know a great deal about the research ongoing in this area. What if they could extract it and put it in a pill-would that make you happier. Oh yeah, I also believe that it should be a controlled substance used under the prescription of a doctor for limited conditions.

    Also, your understanding of evolution from the perspective of a Christian needs some development.In fact, there is a great deal of what you said that could be far more nuanced. Instead you have come across as some talking points for some Pharisees. 


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    Ohhhhh…

    Pastors really ARE a special class of humanity. Sucks to be us.


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    One more thing I want to say about Nouthetic Counseling- what gets me most is the approach behind it. The idea that secular truth must be automatically rejected and everything regarding mental health must come from scripture. The scripture never claims to be the instruction manual on mental health any more than it does on physical health. Reconciliation with God is not about mental health- it is about spiritual health. The two are often related, but not the same things. Someone who was molested does not have a spiritual issue, he or she has a mental issue. Now spiritual issues may arise, but the core issue is mental damage.

    Now we’ll throw out all of the wonderful progress that has been made through general revelation in the area of mental health? I think Jay Adams was definitely responding to a legitimate issue, but he went too far. We MUST critique knowledge received from general revelation using scripture, but that doesn’t mean ignoring general revelation altogether.

    I get that people languish in mental hospitals with spiritual issues. I’ve seen it. In fact I’ve never been around so many people aware of their spiritual needs without the ability to address them. And why were they not addressed? Because the hospitals are simply not equipped to deal with them and have to talk about a “higher power”. And the onrs who have the actual answers keep abandoning these people by rejecting all the good work done in mental health and insisting they come to their counselors with little training who are ill equipped to deal with severe mental issues. Even the integrationist I saw felt like the worst of both worlds- soft on biblical truth and not enough knowledge of mental health for me to trust him.

    When Nothetic Counsling starts acknowledging that all the work in secular therapy has value if filtered though the guidance of scripture, then I will start listening. Until then I will consider it less effective at best and harmful at worst.


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    Dee,

    nice quote from Lewis. Said much better than me!


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    I read the lawsuit and it is all so sad. Children and families should not be treated this way.

    I don’t know anyone who goes to an SGM church, but I have to assume that no one would start a ministry like that and start churches with the intent of doing wrong.

    But as I have said here before, Mahaney’s lack on education and his belief that is and Apostle of sorts is going to come back to haunt him.

    I am not clear how SGM churches work or relate to each other. I don’t know if they are separately incorporated, name their own boards of directors – or if they are incorporated at all.

    I have some random thoughts about lawsuits generally and this lawsuit in particular.

    This lawsuit should be about compensating the victims. If it has secondary effects, great. But I am more interested in seeing the victims receive what they are due.

    Was that a scheduling order that someone posted up above? If so, that is a really tight schedule, especially in a class action setting.

    The facts in this case are not set. They are fluid. I suppose there could be hundreds of witnesses. Be prepared for the facts, as we know them, to shift. The church leaders could say things that are different from what we understand to be the case. Loyal members may pop up and rebut the allegations made by the victims’ families. I suppose it could all get messy by the end.

    Someone above asked in the trial could take place in Louisville. No. The trial will be in MD.

    In reading the complaint, it’s hard to sort out (especially when the facts are in flux) what is actionable (can be a basis for recovery) and what is not acitionable. For example, failing to notify the police of allegations of child abuse is probably a violation of the law, especially if one is in a job that is especially directed to do that (e.g. medical professionals etc.) But violating the law by failing ot notify may not be a basis for recovery from the person abused. And then again, if one is the NEXT person to be abused, the failure to report the prior abuse is highly relevant and a basis for a lawsuit if the abuse is repeated on a later victim.

    So, the legal causes of action in the particular are difficult to settle out at this stage. They won’t be when the facts are determined.

    Despite the aggressive schedule the court has put down, I would expect this to go on for 3 or so years in the trial court and longer on appeal. You never know, it could end sooner with a settlement or something.

    I assume that the churches have turned this over to their insurance carriers (unless the churches thought that insurance wasn’t biblical – in which case, you are out of luck.) If the insurers are going to provide a defense, don’t be surprised if a female lawyer or lawyers are not retained.

    I don’t know anything about the MD venue where this lawsuit has been filed. Anyone? Juries can range widely in education and temperament. Trying a case before a New Orleans jury is different from a jury in Richmond, VA.

    One thing that I noticed about the complaint is how it is almost tailor made to let Mahaney off the hook – or get him in deeper. Several of the defendants are distinguised for having had “personal knowledge” or first hand knowledge, or something like that, of the events. The Complaint nevers says that Mahaney did. This could create, I believe, a great deal of tension among the leaders. Does Mahaney say, “I never knew about all of this. I had no first hand knowledge.” And do the pastors suppor that? Or do the pastors say that they were following strict orders and instruction from Mahaney? All of that could get very interesting. Josh Harris will be in the middle of this, I guess.

    I cannot imagine what this type of development would do to a church. Bust it apart? Bring it together? Does this kind of publicity make it more or less seeker friendly?

    What does this do to Mahaney’s role at T4TG or TGC? If he survives, he’s damaged still. And in the meantime, he looks like Lance Armstrong. He still has the titles, but it could all get stripped away.

    I think that right now Mahaney is wishing he never called himself an Apostle. And I bet SGM or any churches he starts in the future will have more of a Baptist polity. Each church is autonomous. Each church is separate, controlled by its own people. The connection to a denomination is strictly voluntary and involves only giving money.

    This lawsuit may help the SBC continue with its course with regard to establishing a database and tracking sex offenders in the churches. If you take that on and make a mistake, you are liable. If you never take it on, and encourage churches to avail themselves of good resources and tools, the churches become the focal point of stopping this kind of behavior. The churches are in the best position to stop this – or to cover it up, which is apparently what happened at SGM churches.

    I cannot even begin to predict what will happen in this lawsuit, but I am glad that we live in a country where these things can be determined by neutral parites.


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    You could call and then put the results up in YouTube

    Oooooo! There’s an idea! 😀


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    The term in the OT is “divorce for any reason”. What that means is that any and all reasons (essentially no reason necessary) were acceptable for that kind of divorce, which was allowed by the Mosaic code. That is the kind of divorce Jesus said was wrong. He explicitly allowed divorce for adultery. Some say divorce where the marriage vows have been violated is also permissible in the same way, such as physical abuse, abandonment, and the like.


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    Oh, one other thought that I had about this was inter interplay with the First Amendment.

    I am not an expert on SGM or the First Amendment. And there is a lot of difficult interplay between religious conviction and the First Amendment. Don’t Scientoloigists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Amish and other groups regularly battle it out over this.

    You might see Jay Sekulow or some other First Amendment Hot Shot get involved in this.

    And, again, the First Amendment might be a defense to some things, but not others.


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    Diane,

    They believe that even false teachers in the pulpit are there by God’s predestination. So, being in the pulpit does not mean they are Godly preachers, they might be evil false preachers, since both would be in pulpits by predestination! So there is no objective or subjective means in their theology to tell which they are!!!!! Until that is, some authority tells them they are good or bad. Of course that was predestined as well. So, you just need to say that God predestined you to come to them and tell them that they are false teachers, wolves in sheep clothing, and must leave the pulpit or pay a special price in eternity for leading God’s chosen children astray.


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    Muff

    Just a few weeks of being JImmy less then we shall see.


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    Anonymous

    This is a bit of a sticky wicket since it involves pedophilia. It plays poorly in the public and anyone associated with it will be tarred in some way. 


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    Acre, specifically it was a mistranslation that the OT allowed for divorce for any reason. The verse in question is:

    “When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, (Deuteronomy 24:1 ESV)

    The issue was the part translated as “found some indecency in her” which had an usual wording. Liberal translators in the first century were interpreting this to mean “for any reason” OR “adultery”- they found two clauses rather than one. The conservative translators were saying that no, this verse only meant adultery. Note that neither side addressed divorces for neglect, which both affirmed.

    Jesus was asked about the exegesis on this passage and his answer was that it only applied to adultery. He stated nothing about divorce for neglect (but he did comment on other marriage issues, including condemning the conservatives for recognizing invalid divorces performed byte liberals).


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    Anonymous

    AWesome evalutaion of the lawsuit. Thank you for taking the time. i would not want to be the lawyer called to defend the SGM side of things-female or not! Yes, CJ not only used Apostle but “Haed Apostle.” Sound pretty much in control if you ask me.


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    Perhaps truth on an intuitive level had been replaced with dogma, the presentation of which make it near impossible to mentally reject? and the dogma is starting to not take anymore? And disturbed is a healthy and normal reaction?

    elastigirl,

    I did figure being disturbed was appropriate. At the time I was thinking it was not the doctrine but the man I was reacting to. In other words, not so much what he said but how he said it. I still think that’s true (the man deserved that reaction). However, there may be more of a connection between the man and the doctrine than I gave credit for.

    Of course, in order to find out for sure I’d have to reread the book, which excites me about as much as eating a box of Kleenex.


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    @ Arce~

    “So, you just need to say that God predestined you to come to them and tell them that they are false teachers, wolves in sheep clothing, and must leave the pulpit or pay a special price in eternity for leading God’s chosen children astray.”

    Well, maybe my hubby could do that — beings a woman cannot possibly be predestined to teach a pastor/men anything.


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    I once heard McARthur say that long hair on men was a sin (1 Corin 11) and short hair on women was not God’s design. Cheryl Schatz had the same clip I heard on her DVD “Women in Ministry”.

    It’s a crying shame I look awful with short hair or I would get it chopped just to spite them.


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    “This is a bit of a sticky wicket since it involves pedophilia. It plays poorly in the public and anyone associated with it will be tarred in some way. ”

    Bingo.

    Anonymous, how do you think MOhler should respond?


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    Diane and Anon1 “how do they know they’re supposed to be pastors?” this ? takes me back to the belief *someone* yesterday stated that “Scripture is ABSOLUTELY SUFFICIENT for how life should be lived. It’s all there.” If pastors who say they believe this really DID believe this, what Scripture could they possibly use to confirm their personal pastoral calling? They might know from scripture that Christ has given SOME as pastors/teachers, but why them, and why that gift? Why not the gift of helps? Or celibacy? Personally, I know I’m NOT supposed to be a pastor, and did not read this in Scripture– but no scripture could prove me mistaken!


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    “One thing that I noticed about the complaint is how it is almost tailor made to let Mahaney off the hook – or get him in deeper”

    This really depends on how loyal his troops are. Right now, that is not looking good with the ship leaking. But you never know, they could use the Nuremburg defense that it was SGM polity from the Apostle taught at the pastors college. (I am speaking of handling all matters “in house” and not using those evil secular authorities).

    If it can be shown that SGM operates as a “Franchise” type system (sending current leaders and members to plant new churches and make up a congregation like they are doing in Louisville) which operate very much like their previous church then the whole “turnkey” operation is an issue that shows a top down structure. Also pastors had to attend their “pastors” college and could be “degifted” by SGM.

    On the other hand, the SBC, which can argue they are not top down, have cooperating churches who can hire pastors outside their own “system” of seminaries (even if they don’t). In SGM that was not happening during the days of the molestations. They were pastor college grads if you can call them that since it was only 9mos.

    Calling Dr Mohler! What say you about your friend who only practiced “strong leadership” the bloggers did not like? Those rebellious evil bloggers!


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    Dave AA, What is even more telling is that the word “pastor” in scripture has been redefined to mean something totally different than what we see practiced today. (I contend this was part of what came out of the Reformation in making the preacher the center of the stage instead of the sacraments) It is not like we see teh word used in every epistle or even that all epistles addressed to them. And add to that there is no “office” in scripture as that word was added by translators. They ahve taken a function and made it into an official high office!

    My favorite though, is “Senior” pastor. :o)


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    We’re only a few days into the unfolding of this lawsuit, and the feeling I had that organizational structure may prove a huge area of focus is only getting stronger. Who is ultimately and actually “in control” of policy (regardless of the polity on paper) will be crucial.

    I’m wondering if there may be clues to the assumedly “official” polity in the non-profit incorporation papers of Sovereign Grace Ministries (the association) and each SGM “member” church – – even while knowing (and potentially showing) that the polity in actuality functioned differently.

    From reading the main “cards” at the SGM Crisis Timeline link, it would appear that there is (using political terms here, though perhaps someone with a business theory background could supply the business enterprise/corporation equivalents) a hybrid of oligarchy (rule by an elite group) and dictatorship (rule by one). OLIGARCHY – Despite who may be on the SGM board of directors, interrim board, and “new” board, you could create a checklist of the same men consistently serving on those boards and/or showing up as prominent individuals of influence. DICTATORSHIP – As I noted yesterday in my initial impressions after reviewing the timeline, every controversy, every relationship, every hiring/firing seems to trace back to Mr. Mahaney directly or indirectly. Why would that be so if he were not “in charge”? But that seems to be SGM’s understanding of the term *apostle* rather than what is the more missional/missionary understanding of an apostle as one who catalyzes – – not one who controls.

    From my work both with Christian non-profits working in modernist and postmodernist settings, and teams who catalyze missional start-up projects in post-Christendom settings, I’ve seen where the shareholders (leaders of the project) become the stakeholders (beneficiaries of the project), you have big-time trouble a-brewin’. Seems to me this is why all the discussion of narcissism is also very relevant here. Narcissists often end up in the leadership roles – – but ultimately become the beneficiaries of the systems they lead.

    I expect there will be a lot more revealed about the official versus actual form of “government” for the SGM system. Hopefully that will find its way into constructive lessons for the future in church plants, ministry networks, etc. …


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    Victorious

    Yes, they are holding it at the extensive Rosen Shingle Resort which I, your humble blog queen, stayed at for a conference a few years ago. SGM must have loads and loads of money to spend. I hope the tithers like their money going to such posh venues-I guess it is missional???? Well, I am glad they have so much dough.  Perhaps they will give it to some of these alleged victims who have needed help?

    Note to Carolyn Mahaney and the rest of the Girl Talk girls-The Rosen Shingle spa is great. Their cedar lime scrub is the absolute best. 


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    Another potential clue to who is *actually* in control is to look at all the individuals and organizations that caused protests when they were appointed or hired, with questioners/opponents suggesting these should instead recuse themselves from commenting or serving because they had prior relationships with those they were evaluating/investigating and couldn’t be objective.

    So … who serves as relational link to tie these various evaluation panelists, organizations (like Ambassadors of Reconciliation), and other individuals together? Does that person/those persons serve as adviser, mentor, board member, contributor, etc., for any of these panelists and/or organizations? That’s who is likely key to the actual polity.

    A relational map like this could be very intriguing …


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    Anon1:

    I know exactly how I would advise Dr. Mohler to respond. I am not going to be asked to advise him, but since you asked, here is what I would advise Dr. Mohler to say:

    I (we) have heard that a lawsuit has been filed. I have not read it. However, I understand that the lawsuit involves allegations relating to child moletstation, which is tragic and something that we all take seriously.

    Beyond that, it would not be wise for us to comment on or speculate about things that now part of the court system. We believe that this lawsuit should work its way through the justice system, and that it would not be helpful to me or Southern Seminary to make any further comments.

    If he is asked, what about your support for Mahaney etc., he should say, until all matters are resolved in a proper forum and all of the proof is heard, it would be unwise of me to comment or prejudge the proof.

    He will be asked additional questions, and he should just stick with that.

    Mohler should get in the business of betting on a lawsuit, and he should surely not speak the religious equivalent of “I am not going to turn my back on Alger Hiss.”


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    “Mohler should get in the business of betting on a lawsuit, and he should surely not speak the religious equivalent of “I am not going to turn my back on Alger Hiss.””

    But he is on record as supporting Alger Hiss….deeply. To the point of promoting CJ not abiding by the policies he put in place at SGM for others to be disciplined by.

    Mohler is on record of promoting and protecting a group who protected pedophiles. It is not new information. Many of us have known about the problems at SGM for years. Still, Mohler chose to rebuke the bloggers who brought the bad news and not only support Mahaney but claim the bloggers just did not like firm leadership. He supported a known wolf. He is in way deep. But he will wriggle out of it as he always does.

    And I bet you anything he has minions who have read the lawsuit for him and summarized. That way, he can say with a straight face, he has not read the lawsuit. We all know the game well. And Mohler is not a man of integrity. He seeks to “marginalize” people as he recently declared, who dare disagree with his YRR/NC doctrinal stance and then gets put on unity committees for the SBC. My take is he was given power way too young and we are reaping what we sowed.


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    Well, Mohler (or anyone else) can have the lawsuit read to him word for word and still get by with saying “I have not read the lawsuit myself” (say that phrase rapidly and then endlessly pontificate about gossip, not judging, respecting the God given court system. Repeat as necessary).


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    Anonymous –

    Montgomery County MD is a suburb of Washington DC. On the MD side of things it is one the wealthier suburbs of DC. It also has a high percentage of a politically liberal mindset – not sure if or how that will effect things because it is pretty racially diverse – and I am not sure how the mix will end up viewing the issues. I am also not sure how many of my neighbors are actually in the jury pool. Because of its proximity to DC there are a huge number of transplants from all over the country and world. Many of the foreign transplants have obtained or are in the process of obtaining citizenship – which means that the jury pool has the potential to be really diverse.

    To sum up: the area is highly liberal, however, it is also very racially and religiously diverse, and depending on who ends up in the jury pool it could get interesting.


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    Anonymous

    Al Mohler and The Gospel Coalition need to say something even to say they are not going to say anything. Dead silence shows they are very, very uncomfortable. 


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    ES

    I would like to see a really diverse jury pool looking at that situation. SGM has enjoyed their tight little group with the inherent weirdnesses brought by the strange practices of CJ Mahaney and his boys. Let’s see what happens when the light shines in on it.


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    “Dead silence shows they are very, very uncomfortable.”

    Exactly


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    As a former speechwriter, candidate (long ago and recently) and former office holder (long ago), I have had specific training in the “non-comment comment”, as I am sure Mohler or his speech preparer has. “Yes, I have heard that there is a lawsuit, but I do not think it wise for me to comment at this time. The matter does not appear to relate to or affect Southern Seminary nor the Southern Baptist Convention, so a comment would be inappropriate.”


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    RE: Anon 1 on Mon Oct 22, 2012 at 11:21 AM,

    I too got a chuckle out of the young fella’s query about God as narcissist. Did you notice also the tap danced circle and specially plead escape hatch the Reformed pastor used to get out of any meaningful dealing with the question?

    In the world of the ancients who wrote the Bible and the medievals who refined it into a religion, there was no such thing as the rights of man (ala Paine & other Enlightenment thinkers). You thought and did as you were told by your betters or you faced rather unpleasant consequences. In my opinion, this is where the Calvinist’s obsession with sovereignty has its origin.


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    It is uncanny how many are acting exactly the same way. Historically you see that sort of things in certain movements and it is not pretty. — Anon1

    “Certain movements” — Communists, NSDAP, or both?

    You thought and did as you were told by your betters or you faced rather unpleasant consequences. In my opinion, this is where the Calvinist’s obsession with sovereignty has its origin. — Muff Potter

    In other words, the default mode of 99% of human societies — one percent with the boot stamping on the face of the other 99%. I keep telling people that throughout history, what’s normal is the likes of Baba Saddam, his sons, Dear Leader Comrade Kim Jong-Il, and Brother Leader Muammar Gadhafi. They’re what’s normal — WE’RE the freaks!


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    “In Plain English”

    Just for you, HUG

    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (or test) the spirits to see whether they are of God or not: because unfortunately many false apostles have gone out into the world. Remember, you are of God, little children, and have overcome the corruptors, because greater is He that is in you, than he that is leading Sovereign Grave Miseries.

    His eye is ever upon “the sparrow.”

    (…and I don’t mean Jack)

    -grin-

    S㋡py


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    Guy Behind the Curtain: Just one more teeny-weeny North Carolina university system correction. There is no Eastern Carolina University. There is simply East Carolina University (ECU), the Pirates, long known as a party school, but now with some decent academic standing and a med school, originally called EEceeTEEcee — East Carolina Teacher’s College.
    To muddy the water, there is WESTERN Carolina University over in the mountains at Cullowhee.
    And, to further confuse things, UNC is called “Carolina” in NC, while University of South Carolina is called “Carolina” in SC. And while we’re in SC, please don’t ever call it “Clehm-zun”. The proper pronunciation is “Climpsun”, thank you.

    Almost as confusing as all those churches called Sovereign Grace, but much more fun.


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    Nickname,

    You really know your universities in the Carolinas!  🙂


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    “You thought and did as you were told by your betters or you faced rather unpleasant consequences. In my opinion, this is where the Calvinist’s obsession with sovereignty has its origin. — Muff Potter

    This is what i think is going on subconsciously with that doctrine–they map God’s Sovereignty with His forordaining them to ministry and therefore their sovereignty over others who were not foreordained to “paid” ministry.


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    “too got a chuckle out of the young fella’s query about God as narcissist. Did you notice also the tap danced circle and specially plead escape hatch the Reformed pastor used to get out of any meaningful dealing with the question”

    Yep. I liked the commenter who made the point that narcissists don’t hang on trees for the sins of others. Touche’. Too bad the YRR pastor did not think of it. Hmmm


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    Lew,

    I’m one of those christians, who says marijuana prohibition should be repealed and legal for medical use.

    I am an old nurse. There was a time when I use to pour a mixture of heroin, morphine, cocaine, alcohol and tranquilizer down the throats of dying cancer patients. Marijuana would have accomplished the same desired effect without nasty side effects including the worry that I might inadvertently kill them.

    Too, I would like to have had access to marijuana when I did chemo myself. Instead, I watched my weight plummet and no amount of nausea meds, kept me from spending 6 months with my head either in the toilet or asleep. Marijuana would have remedied all that. Should my cancer return, this christian will be using marijuana and would like to have easy and unstigmatized access to it.

    And, did you know that a compound in marijuana has been shown to stop cancer from metastasizing? That alone would prompt me to put a few plants next to the beefsteaks.

    As for the rest of your comments – triggering, this whole discussion in fact.
    Calvinism. The love is so, not. there.


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    Dee,

    Re: schizophrenia. Calvinista preacher once told me schizophrenia did not exist because there was no test for it. =O
    So, I asked him if that was also true of say, diabetes or did that only come into existence once lab-tested? We were eventually kicked out of that church. A point made to us by one of the yes-men, albeit beneath his breathe, was that we, “read and think.”

    My heart aches for the dear children so horribly wronged in this SGM mess. Spent all today with my toddler grandbabies and wept while watching them sleep.
    Hope every book possible gets thrown at the guilty.


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    I’ve lived in NC for 24 years now. And never heard it called anything but ECU. I was extrapolating.

    As to UNC vs. Carolina, yes light blue shirted folks call it that and assume there is none other.

    As to me, I was raised as a blue wildcat. So I have fun sitting in the middle of all of this.


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    lew said: “Where in scripture does it talk about your self esteem? Most every reference self esteem is referred to in derogatory terms. The bible says that we’re ALL sinners. We all do deceitful things each day. Our worth is NOT on our own. Our worth only comes from God. There is scant evidence that in and of ourselves we’re much of anything.”

    I was brought up with that refrain. It was triggering alright. It’s like there was a palpable fear that you might get too much self-esteem or something, and is possibly a response to supposed humanist and secularist thought. The anti self-esteem refrain to me was harmful and damaging with life consequences. Poor boundaries, poor choices, poor planning and lack of direction. Because you’re not worth it you see. I have a theory that self-esteem is genetic – you inherit it (or the lack thereof) from your parents. Couple that with a “look to God in all things” mentality and you’re in for a psychological bruiser. It takes a good while to reverse the mental downtrodden-ness and what I think of as a dishonest mindset.


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    @Irish:

    Good for you for standing up to that Calvinista preacher. The only real solution, in my opinion, to the problems of the YRR crowd is an informed, confident, and Spirit-led Body of Christ who “read and think.”

    There will always be Driscolls and Mahaneys, unfortunately. Thank the Lord for the readers and thinkers, which includes you and the wonderful folks on this site!


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    Irish – amen to mmj use! (And not just for cancer – I have found it extremely helpful for chronic pain. Beats being hooked on opioids any day!)

    One of the important things to keep in mind is that mj is a *very* chemically complex plant, and the various cannabinoids (and, iirc, terpenes) in the plant interact in ways that can effectively work as anti-inflammatories (cannabidiol, or CBD, in particular). There are people in the US (legal states), Canada, Western Europe and Israel who are working on creating and stabilizing high-CBD, low-THC strains as I type…

    Not only that: mmj can be taken in a variety of forms that *don’t* involve combustion or even inhaling vapor. I’m all for tinctures, oils, and – for that matter – vaporization if super-rapid delivery is needed, though vapor is my least favorite method. (Tinctures can be made in either an alcohol or food-grade glycerin base – a few drops under the tongue does the trick; it bypasses the stomach completely in that way.)

    Finally, medical mj saved the life of a very close family member. At the time of their illness (very severe combination of things that caused extreme weight loss), they were 6′ and about 100 lbs. mmj – compounded in capsules, which were taken like any other oral med – restored appetite and gave this family member some respite from the pain they were experiencing.

    This person is now very healthy. I thank God that they lived in a legal state at the time of that illness and subsequent rehab, or… I doubt they would still be alive.


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    Great.
    With all this bad news, no wonder.
    Let’s all just go get stoned, eh?


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    Tag on my last post: I can’t take anti-inflammatories (my body reacts very badly to them), so I don’t have a lot of options.

    Sadly, more and more people are being pushed toward the heavier opiods, now that propoxyphene (chief active ingredient in Darvocet) has been banned here in the US. (imo, the research behind that ban was extremely shoddy and there were big pharma interests at work – but that’s a story for another time, and probably another forum.)

    [/end threadjack]


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    Can you just imagine watching that entire Mohler video totally wiped out on weed?
    Whoa, baby!


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    Anon – I think you missed the point, but that’s OK. 😉


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    Anon

    Thank you for giving me the laugh of the day. “With all this bad news, no wonder.Let’s all just go get stoned, eh?”


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    Haitch,
    Bingo. Just smack me in the face again and don’t forget to say thank you. Big breath. (See I can spell if I want to.)

    Mr. H,
    Calvinist churches with which I am familiar, are known for emptying out real or perceived elder material.

    Numo,
    …and between us we shall lick the platter clean. I’m allergic to opiates and need anti-inflammatories. MJ is a good fit for my medical needs.

    Anon,
    You can have the non-medical brownies. 🙂


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    Irish

    Kicked out of the church? Have you told your story here? We would love for you to do so. You are not alone by any means. There is a nice little fellowship forming of those kicked out of churches and proud to say they were!

    Here is a piece we did on shcizophrenia and the idiotic way the nouthetic people treat it. We contrast it with a wonderful story written in Christianity Today by a young man who struggles with schizophrenia. Link


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    The anti self-esteem refrain to me was harmful and damaging with life consequences. Poor boundaries, poor choices, poor planning and lack of direction. Because you’re not worth it you see. — Haitch

    Sounds like a perfect fit (and side effect) of “Worm Theology”, which denigrates you to glorify God in a zero-sum game.


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    Irish

    My son did a semester long project investigating the claims of medical marijuana. I was fascinated. I think there are two hurdles to overcome while allowing for its compassionate use. The actual active ingredient is not fully known since there are many ingredients. Secondly, there needs to be a way that doctors would write a prescription and that it would be filled by regular pharmacies. Pharmacies are currently afraid since each batch of marijuana can have varying degrees of the active ingredients. Lawsuits could easily ensue.That, in itself, maybe the major hindrance to the widepread embrace of such a treatment modality.

    I think it just needs to be tightened up a bit and that is beginning to happen. Most physicians groups are pushing for further research on the question. 

    I would far rather see patients using this drug instead of more highly addictive drugs such as oxycontin.


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    Yes. Handed a letter telling us we would have to “remove [ourselves] from the church” if a vote swung in a particular direction and verbally told to keep quiet about our view.

    No, I haven’t told my story here. It’s wearying. Enough to say, it boils down to a lone-wolf preacher who isn’t afraid to lie and manipulate, and his sufficiently stupid yes-men.

    We are thankful to be out and see it now as God sparing our children from the hateful, cultic, Calvinistic mindset.


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    Dee,
    Pfft, yeah, oxycontin, aside from the anaphylactic shock, it terrified me too.

    Med MJ grown by the Government of Canada apparently has problems with grade. And try finding a MD to prescribe and then getting that approved by the governmental peons or still accessing even once that’s approved. When I was looking into Med MJ a few years ago, the MD’s seem scared to be associated with it.

    MJ needs to come off the books as a restricted herb. There are other plants in my backyard of equal or greater psychotropic value and those are not restricted or prohibited. My grandfather was a physician in the early 20th century, his wife, my grandmother was a pharmacist. Before prohibition, they prescribed oral, tincture and MJ salves from plants they grew.

    I should be able to legally grow my supply in my home garden the way I’m legally allowed to brew my own beer in the garage. IMHO prohibition has created drug problems. Lifting it would resolve a lot. And I don’t think we really need to isolate specific compounds or even fully understand how they work. When you are desperate with life-threatening illness, it changes what you are willing to accept.

    Interesting subjects.


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    Is it a sin to want to knock Jimmy’s teeth through the back of his head?

    Do you think he’d sue me?


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    Jim

    Not only would he sue you but he would take to the airways to claim that you are just a victim to be crushed!

    Hope all is well with you. Just when you think “That’s all she wrote”, you learn the wisdom of the old saw “It’s not over until the fat lady sings.”


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    irish

    I think one big concern is over the hallucinogenic properties which can varu from individual to individual. Those side effects need to be quatified a bit for safety parameters. The problem has been the dearth of big name studies with major universities. They tend to be made up of a really small population due to the fact the FDA will not give permission for large scale studies that are necessary.Those prosepctive, randomized, double blind studies are essential for more precise understanding. However, you are correct. There does not seem to be much regulation for “magic mushrooms.”


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    @HUG – worm theology – spot on. Glad to put a name to it.


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    Irish wrote

    MJ needs to come off the books as a restricted herb. There are other plants in my backyard of equal or greater psychotropic value and those are not restricted or prohibited. My grandfather was a physician in the early 20th century, his wife, my grandmother was a pharmacist. Before prohibition, they prescribed oral, tincture and MJ salves from plants they grew.

    I should be able to legally grow my supply in my home garden the way I’m legally allowed to brew my own beer in the garage. IMHO prohibition has created drug problems. Lifting it would resolve a lot. And I don’t think we really need to isolate specific compounds or even fully understand how they work. When you are desperate with life-threatening illness, it changes what you are willing to accept.

    Exactly!

    As for “hallucinogenic” effects, that’s… debatable. There’s no single strain of mj; there are (at this point) so many it’s not funny, and even when one grows – hypothetically – 10 plants of the same strain, there is absolutely no guarantee that the levels of chemicals that can be tested for (THC and CBD are only two) will be the same in every mature plant – or even in various parts of *the same plant.*

    that’s one of the things that makes regulation hard… because it’s a natural product, there are bound to be variations, no matter how tightly controlled the growing situation (type and amount of light, growing media, fertilizers, etc.).

    The thing is… back in the 70s, most of what was sold (illegally) in the US were cannabis sativa strains. Since the 80s, there’s been a big increase in the introduction and use of cannabis indica, which (like the name says) comes from the Indian subcontinent and Central Asia. Sativas are – generally speaking – the types that tend to send people into space; indicas are much more relaxing and have sedative effects. the vast majority of available strains in the US, Canad and Europe are indica/sativa hybrids.

    roughly: sativas/sativa-dominant hybrids tend to be more useful for cancer patients – and nausea in general, appetite stimulation, and certain kinds of pain relief = they worked very well for many, many AIDS patients back in the 80s and 90s, prior to the introduction of protease inhibitors. Indicas/indica-dominant hybrids are more often used for pain relief, inflammation, etc.

    And, as Irish mentioned, various kinds of balms and salves can be made from the plant (leaves, stems, even roots). I currently use a topical balm that’s made from roots only – and it is *entirely legal* in all 50 states, as the roots contain no THC. I get mine from an herbalist in CA who developed this particular root/other herb balm to help herself when she experienced some severe wounds/injuries some years ago. It helps a *lot* with topical pain relief, and also use it for minor cuts, scratches, bug bites and the like – they heal so fast, it’s amazing. here’s her web site: http://tierrasolfarm.com/

    Irish is also correct in stating that there are quite a few plants that can be legally grown in anyone’s backyard that have much stronger psychoactive effects than mj – and are far more dangerous.

    I would never have gone to this alternative had it not been for the extreme narrowing of options available to me for pain relief – the ban on propoxyphene was the last straw! There is NO way I’m going to take something like Oxycontin – and now I only need opioids for things like acute dental pain (root canals, etc.), which is what the danged drugs are meant for. (Though I don’t have any problem with the use of morphine in low doses for chronic pain patients *so long as* patients are carefully monitored by the prescribing physicians – also for people who are terminally ill – I mean, who the h*ll cares about someone being addicted to a drug that helps tremendously with end-of-life suffering?!)

    I think we could kill a lot of Mexican cartel activity in the US and Canada via legalization, taxation and regulation… though for previously stated reasons, testing and regulation for medical use can be difficult. Still, it would be better to try and do that than insist that people take Marinol (synthetic THC that costs $$$, is not covered by insurance and has some nasty side effects – like severe nausea and vomiting), Sativex (ditto on the $$$ and insurance; it’s a tincture that’s currently undergoing trials here in the US – it’s legal in the UK, but the MS patients who were in control groups said that home-made tinctures work a lot more effectively – looks like the drug company is trying too hard to “refine” the raw plant product).


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    @ Dee, Irish, & numo,

    Why not go a step further and adopt the European model of decriminalization when it comes to illicit drug use? Hasn’t this silly redux of prohibition (Volstead act) gone on long enough?

    The only beneficiaries of the decades long War on Drugs have been the drug lords themselves and the DEA in terms of ever more bloated budgets. Over 50,000 dead in Northern Mexico as collateral damage in this stupid war, and we have nothing to show for it. I can only echo the sentiments of George McGovern when he wanted to stop the Vietnam War in 72’. We made a mistake and should stop repeating it.


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    Muff – I’m kinda leaning in favor of full legalization. See below!

    Dee wrote

    The problem has been the dearth of big name studies with major universities. They tend to be made up of a really small population due to the fact the FDA will not give permission for large scale studies that are necessary.Those prosepctive, randomized, double blind studies are essential for more precise understanding.

    If the FDA were to take mj off Schedule I and reclassify it as Schedule II, III or lower, this would *definitely* change. As is, “extract” (i.e., that being used by the Sativex people in their trials here in the US) is currently classified as Schedule III – but only for them, so that they can do their clinical trials.

    *If* the FDA and NIDA would reassess their priorities on what are truly dangerous drugs – and, say, refocus on things like crystal meth instead of total prohibition of mj – we might have an altogether healthier nation. The painful irony – in my neck of the (literal) woods is the high amount of both heroin and meth addiction. The former started back in the mid-90s (most of it comes through Philadelphia and Baltimore); the latter is more recent, but it took a while for crystal meth to filter to the East Coast from out west.

    Taking mj isn’t going to kill someone. Heroin, cocaine, crack cocaine and meth can and do destroy peoples’ lives, families and more (just like alcohol). I also find it painfully ironic that anyone of legal age in my state can walk into a state-owned liquor store and buy as many fifths of vodka, gin, whiskey etc. as they can afford. Binge drinking at area colleges – the kind of binge drinking that can kill – is a HUGE problem. Frankly, I’d much rather see those kids lighting a joint or two – the negative effects are minimal compared to those from alcohol consumption. (I’m *not* against banning alcohol, either, but am all too aware of its potential negative effects. Those who can drink in moderation are fortunate souls, imo!)


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    Muff – I also think it’s insane that the growth and use of industrial hemp in the US is also prohibited. “Funny” thing (not, really): if you look into the history of mj prohibition in the US, it seems that lots of cotton growers (and their lobbies) from the Jim Crow states were involved in the promotion of total prohibition – not just of mj, but of hem (as textile, etc.).

    And looking at the way that attitudes were hardened – back in the 20s and 30s – re. mj use, you’ll also find that a *ton* of racist thinking and “white power” activism was involved – mainly leveled against black folks and Mexicans. (A lot of US citizens were introduced to mj during the Mexican Civil War, when the US sent troops to Mexico… and Mexican immigrants brought mj to the US during the 20s, 30s and 40s, along with the growing Afro-Caribbean immigrant population on the East Coast of the US).

    It should surprise anyone that the height of early anti-mj activism coincided with the intensification of Jim Crow laws – and their enforcement – in the American South.

    I could go on about negative perceptions of Mexicans and black people that were used in a big way in anti-mj literature, etc. during the 20s-40s, but it’s not hard to find actual examples (very much including films like “Reefer madness”).


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    err – “hemp,” not “hem.”

    Ah well!


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    oh – I’m not FOR banning alcohol! (I think Prohibition was a mess, and created tons of problems that are still with us.)


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    “should NOT surprise anyone.”

    I need to proof more carefully!


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    Muff,
    Yes, I’m in favour of decriminalization for marijuana, but not narcotics.
    It’s the only reason Justin Trudeau will ever get my vote if he gains the Liberal leadership.


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    Agreed on *not* decriminalizing narcotics.


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    This: She emphasized the story of a 3 year old child who was made to meet with and forgive her abuser. The poor child was so afraid she hid under a chair. (Dee is throwing things and screaming in horror at this point).

    That was too much for me. I just fell out crying. That poor baby. I am so angry right now. This hurts and it’s not even me or my child. Gosh, Dee, you did warn me. I should have taken that advice. This. Is. Unreal.


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    I think a parent has to be so abused and controlled by these evil people that they wouldn’t have snatched their child up and ran out of there. It just goes to show that the lack of “normal” response from the parent means that the amount of mind-control the leadership had over them was sickening. Does a child at that age even know how to forgive?


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    “Does a child at that age even know how to forgive?” Trina

    No they don’t, Trina. The only way they could forgive is if they have been able to process what has happened to them, and a three year-old can’t process the events of sexual molestation. These “leaders” had no frickin idea what they were doing and shouldn’t have been acting like they did. The sooner they admit it and make restitution, the better. If they don’t make restitution on their own (which they have been refusing to do to this point) then I hope the suit makes them pay out the ying yang!


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    Eagle

    Thank you for the best laugh all day. “What will Mahaeney’s next book be? “Don’t Waste Your Polygraph?” or “Don’t waste Your Deposition?”


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    Understanding the SGM mindset: “Protecting the perp, castigating the victim.”

    “…To me, this (below) helps to make sense of why, in SGM…., the victims are minimized while the perps are protected…”

    -thereformedtraveler

    Let’s take a look:

    “Deeply embedded in the SGM mindset are some assumptions:
     
    1. All sins are just as vile in the eyes of God.
     
    2. One of the clearest signs of “rebellion” is when a person sees himself as an injured party, because no injury that can be perpetrated against the person could ever surpass the horror that the person’s own sin is in the eyes of God.

    3. The clearest sign of a “repentant” person is eager confession of wrongdoing.”

    “Taking those three SGM assumptions, let’s examine Noel’s pastors’ response to her family’s situation. ” :

    Noel’s story:

    http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2008/12/31/noels-story

    “In light of these assumptions, I think we can more clearly understand a bit of what went through those pastors’ minds as they offered more sympathy and support to the perp rather than the victims.”

    “Even though the pastoral responses are basically incomprehensible to a normal person, they sort of start to make sense when you think of it in this way:

    Because of SGM’s belief that each of us must always be “the worst sinner that we ourselves know,” we basically give up our rights to ANY victimhood, no matter how heinous the crime committed against us.”

    “In other words, even though what happened to Noel’s family was absolutely horrific, SGM’s foundational teachings would say that Noel’s only legitimate “biblical” response would be to examine her own sinfulness and see herself as “the worst sinner” she knows. Her pastors would see it as their duty to direct Noel’s attention first of all to her own indwelling sin, her own wretchedness in God’s eyes. I believe they sincerely think that this is “bringing the Gospel into” everything they do. For them, “the Gospel” is firstly and foremostly about our own sin.”

    “But instinctively, we know that something is jacked up in this view.” 

    “God’s own Word would tell us that He does see some sins as having broader and more lasting consequences than other sins. Yes, all sin is an abomination in God’s eyes…theoretically. But we all know the REALITY, that if I go out and kill someone, there are far more ramifications all the way around than if I lie by calling in sick to work one day when I’m not actually sick and just want to go shopping with my friends. Both the murder and the lie are sins in God’s eyes and both are wretched, but if you lie to me, I’m probably going to be less upset than if you kill someone near and dear to me.”

           “In SGM…., though, this normal human reaction – one that the even the Bible would seem to support, if you examine how God outlined so many very specific laws and guidelines governing behavior for Old Testament Israel – is circumvented. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been the victim of a liar or a murderer. In your SGM pastor’s mind, you’ve got NO RIGHT to see yourself as a victim, of any sort. In order to “bring the Gospel in,” they’re duty-bound to remind you of your own sinfulness, like it’s some sort of tonic for the normal grief that you might feel because of the ramifications of the sin that was perpetrated against you…like somehow, if I as the victim can just focus on my own badness, I’ll forget that someone molested my child.”

    “So OK. In SGM…., all sins are created equal.
    Now, enter the perp. Perp expresses sorrow and remorse for his sin. He truly IS the “worst sinner that he knows,” so such a mindset comes easily and naturally to him. In the eyes of his SGM pastors, he automatically then becomes the “more righteous” person, since his response is the only “truly biblical” repsonse that they can find acceptable.”

    “It gets worse if the victim stands up for himself/herself in any fashion.”

    “SGM pastors immediately see this as unforgiveness, which of course is a sin, which then makes the victim even WORSE than the remorseful (and therefore righteous) perp.”

    “Again, I did not think of this myself. Someone else initially posted these general thoughts. But I thought these were some brilliant observations that did far more to shed light on Noel’s pastors’ really twisted and bizarre behavior than just about anything else.”

    “To me, this helps to make sense of why, in SGM…., the victims are minimized while the perps are protected. It’s because in SGM…., the only thing that is really righteous is seeing oneself as “the worst sinner one knows.” If one has had a crime – particularly a heinous crime like child abuse – perpetrated against one, there is NO HONEST WAY that one can authentically and enthusiastically embrace “worst sinner” status in one’s thinking. One instinctively knows that someone else’s sin (in this case, one’s perp’s sin) is greater than one’s own sin. So one naturally raises objections to embracing “worst sinner” status.”

    “SGM pastors sense this and seem to hone in on it, interpreting standing up for oneself as a sign of pride and sin and un-forgiveness.”

    “Meanwhile, the perp is over in his corner crying his genuine tears of sorrow. Because he truly IS the “worst sinner he knows” at that moment, he is more righteous, and hence more worthy of protection.”

    ( quotes from) :-thereformedtraveler

        Hello,

    Please be mindful of the following:

           It would appear that SGM Pastors are trained to believe:

    1. That : “you’ve got NO RIGHT to see yourself as a victim, of any sort”.

    2. That : “In order to “bring the Gospel in,” they’re duty-bound to remind you of your own sinfulness…”

    (hence SGM’s focus on “sin”)

    Please be careful, In SGM, it would appear, that believers are constantly being measured by their (SGM) own internal standard to the detriment of the believer. 

    Should SGM church participants beware?

    You Decide. 

    IronClad


    Reference(s):

    http://thereformedtraveler.com/2012/10/24/spousal-abuse-in-sovereign-grace-ministries-churches-via-bgbc-survivors/

    http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/2011/09/02/why-sovereign-grace-ministries-doesnt-like-victims/


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    @Ironclad, so basically, their ‘worm theology’ advantages paedophiles…


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    SpellBound?

    @Ironclad, so basically, their ‘worm theology’ advantages paedophiles… Haitch

    Haitch, sure looks like it, what a sad state of affairs? What is your take?

        Hello, 

           Has Reverend Mahaney got you spellbound?

    Has he (Mahaney) driven his central SGM thematic message home: “You are the worst sinner you know” ?

    Have you swallow this “hard truth”?

    Do you sit in the pew as he continues to outline how you are nothing but a ‘worthless worm’ before God?

    Worthless worm?  Before God? 

    (can you believe it?)

    Has Reverend Charles Mahaney, in his great compassion, kindness, and deeply accumulated wisdom, “graciously” offered his slick soothing remedy: Follow me!

    Please keep in mind, Jesus said there would come a time  where many would come with soothing words and lead believers astray. This self-proclaimed apostle, Reverend Charles Joseph Mahaney, apparently, is such a man. 

    Folly can not be far behind?

    Again, caution is advised.

    You Decide.

    IronClad


    Reference:
    http://sgmrefuge.com/2012/10/12/sovereign-grace-church-of-daytona-beach/#comment-104430


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    Doubtful,

    We are made in God’s image, but that was broken many moons ago by Adam and Eve. Today, you and I are:

    There are none righteous, NO not ONE!

    We are as FILTHY rags

    You ARE right that we have self esteem, but we’re told to esteem others MORE than ourselves!

    Was Hitler worth giving self esteem? He certainly was in his circles!

    2 Timothy 3:1-4 says “But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful arrogant…disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy…rather than lovers of God.

    “Love each other as brothers and sisters and honor others MORE than you do yourself? ” Rom. 12:10

    “Love isn’t selfish or quick tempered. It doesn’t keep a record of wrongs that others do”(1 Cor 13:5)

    Bible teach us that we ought to love God with all our heart and with all our soul Mt. 22:37

    Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others MORE significant than yourselves.

    *** It’s apparent that we DO them from rivalry and conceit, or we wouldn’t be told NOT to.

    Jesus said: Love God AND your neighbor as yourself.

    What that tells you is that you already LOVE yourself. What it is telling you to DO, is to love your neighbor and especially God like you’re supposed to. Which is MORE than you! We have to LEARN to love others.

    I would also add MYSELF to the list of people who think/thought their stuff doesn’t stink! That’s unhealthy.

    Loving ourselves is a FALSE sense of esteem. As shown, it can very well mean we love yourself too much! Conceited people LOVE themselves to high heaven.

    Do I have something to offer? Yes, but if it’s on my own…. not good. In fact, on my own… I can be pretty ugly person. With Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit…. a lot better!

    All verses that speak nicely of people are because of what God has done for them; such as knitting and creating you in the womb. GIVING you.

    However, those are predicated on us honoring and obeying him. Not being scared, not turning from good works, not leaving our first love, being of sober judgement, GIVING our yoke to him, etc…

    To the rest, I’m neither a Calvinist, nor an Arminist. I search the scriptures with the intent to be a biblicist.


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    I was brought up with that refrain. It was triggering alright. It’s like there was a palpable fear that you might get too much self-esteem or something, and is possibly a response to supposed humanist and secularist thought. The anti self-esteem refrain to me was harmful and damaging with life consequences. Poor boundaries, poor choices, poor planning and lack of direction. Because you’re not worth it you see. I have a theory that self-esteem is genetic – you inherit it (or the lack thereof) from your parents. Couple that with a “look to God in all things” mentality and you’re in for a psychological bruiser. It takes a good while to reverse the mental downtrodden-ness and what I think of as a dishonest mindset.
    ————————————————–

    You may think that, but I have a decent idea of who I am and what scripture says about humanity. I know my inner fleshly desires, and I know they’re no good! My suspicions are you know yourself as well!

    I do not deny that you LEARN certain traits from your parents, nor will I deny you can inherit certain traits from your parents. However, you have a serious generalization problem!

    There are so many examples of the opposite of what you state that it’s difficult to name them all. Millions of people live in total squalor from their parents in say India, who never knew Christ, yet today, there the ones leading the charge in the underground churches! Same thing for those in China, African villages, Pakistan, Arabia, onto Timbuktu. All changed by the gospel of Christ.

    How do we explain that? From arranged marriages, forceable rapes, drunkards, disowning by families because of their faith, living in huts made of cow dung and circled by the cows, so that malaria is rampant in their lives.

    Don’t believe all the lies.


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    Lew, What do you think the “image of God” means when it comes to humans being made in His imagae?


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    For Lew:

    http://www.theologyforwomen.org/2012/10/esther-victims-and-reformed-view-of.html

    Because the Calvinists lose me at the T in TULIP. Because “Total Depravity” mentally cancels out “Made in the image of God” in my mind. BUT Wendy at the above link comes up with a term that I can better accept. “Pervasive Depravity” makes much more sense to me and makes room for “Made in God’s image” that “Total Depravity” does not.


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    lew

    I, too, am a biblicist and I look at things very differently than you do. We ARE created in the imagoe of God-now and then.That image is not totally gone and God loves those who are created in His image. There is still the voice inside of us that points us to being kind and loving, even if we do not know Him.There is a sense of right and wrong even if we do not follow Him. There is a remnant in our soul that knows there is truth, goodness and beauty. Our sin nature muddles it up and we cannot in any way affect our salvation on our own without Christ, but we are not, individually, as bad as we could be. If we were, there would be more Hitlers along with uncontrollable anarchy.

    Now, as far as I can tell-even when we come to Christ and receive the Holy Spirit, we Christians can still be very ugly.So, let’s take a guy like Ghandi and compare his peaceful ways to those covering up pedophilia in the church. Is the Christian in these situation somehow “better” than Ghandi? Not on his own, he isn’t. Christ is our covering.

    You said 

    “Do I have something to offer? Yes, but if it’s on my own…. not good. In fact, on my own… I can be pretty ugly person. With Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit…. a lot better!”   I think that you are mistaken here and that is where Christians get themselves into all sorts of hot water. This is important-we are positionally holy but functionally sinful. The greatest Christian amongst us is capable of sin and they have sin in their livesthat they will never get rid of until the day that she/he goes home.

    Without Christ, you are not forgiven and therefore dead in your sins. With Christ, you are forgiven of your sin and sin nature but you will still sin. Now, many Christians like to say “Well, I am not as bad as my neighbor who drinks and cusses a blue streak. ” YOu are not better than that neighbor. But, we are still coverup our own sins and present a very nice condmning face to the world. And frankly, the world looks at “biblicists” and has a good laugh because they pick and choose the sins that are “bad.” The only reason we are “better”  is Christ and Christ alone.

    The only reaso


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    lew

    To quote Aslan: 
    ‘You come of the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve,’ said Aslan. ‘And that is both honor enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth. Be content.'”


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    Pop! a dead man pushing up tulips?

        Hello,

           Let me get this straight, for 500 plus years, the reformed churches have been following the follower created  TULIP theological system gleaned from the teachings of a dead man? Is he not under the tulips? Is not our life as believers hid in the Christ of God, seated upon the throne in heaven?

    As for me and my house we shall follow the teaching of a risen Savior who now sits at the right hand of God? Why waste your time pushing up tulips? when you are free to follow Christ? Isn’t TULIP a myopic and extremely limited theological system? Did not John Calvin bid us follow Christ? I certainly hope so!  Anything else makes John a dull boy. And we certainly wouldn’t want that, now would we?

    As believers, are we not risen with Christ? Has he not said: Come unto me all you who are heavy laden, and I shall give you rest? Has he not given us as believers new hearts and a new nature, and a new spirit? Tulip pushers can worm, root, and roost all they want to. Champagne corks are popping in heaven over one sinner who repents!

    Pop! 

    What about you?

    Consider Carefully?

    You Decide. 

    IronClad


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    lew-

    Do me a favor…if we are ever neighbors, do not love me as you love yourself. I’ve had enough of this “I am but a worm” and “filthy rags” garbage.

    Oh, thanks for for the Hitler example, nothing like jumping to extremes to make your point. I’m sure I’m just one breath away from going on a decades long quest to lock up and exterminate all those that disagree with me… after all, I’m just as filthy rag and sin filled as Hitler…right?


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    doubtful

    I feel sorry for lew. He is caught in a system that requires him to view himself in such a manner. I continue to claim that I believe that these extremes are necessary for them because, deep down insude, they are fearful that they are not of the elect.  When a recent admired Calvinist converted to Catholicism, the statements flying around the barnyard was that this was “proof” that he had never been truly one of the “regenerated” ones-doublespeak for “probably on his way to hell.”

    This is very scary for those who follow this system. If such a man, who was a theologian and highly respected, can be “discovered”, after a lifetime of being a leader, to not be one of the elect, what does that say about the average Joe in the pew. (PS-You do know that I don’t buy this whole line of reasoning but I am trying to make a point).

    So, let’s take an average Calvinista-lew. He has a problem. Maybe he isn’t one of the elect. That scares him. What does he do? He “proves” he is one of the elect by saying he has no problem with being viewed as a worm crawling in excrement. Well, gosh darn it, if he keeps saying it a whole bunch, it must surely “prove” he is one of the elect.

    I, on the other hand, am a big believer in grace and don’t spend a lot of time crawling in the mud with lew.


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    Lew did not respond to my long response to him. I am disappointed.

    I wish more people would read Tim Keller’s book “Generous Justice”- not only does he make the case quite compelling for treating others as image bearers of God, he quotes Johnathan Edwards to make his point.

    As much as Edwards is knocked for his hellfire and brimstone sermons, he was far more compassionate toward the oppressed than the Calvinistas (at least as presented by Keller). I’ll bet that Edwards would not be silent about SGM were he alive today.


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    In light of full disclosure, I have to admit up front that I am commenting from the confessionally Reformed Presbyterian point-of-view, which is, I think, different in many significant ways from the neo-Reformed, who sometimes reduce what it means to be Reformed to bare predestinarianism and often have a more or less deficient or non-existent ecclesiology, sacrementology, view of the teaching elder’s role as restricted to declarative authority only and not a totalizing authority, etc.

    Well, to the issue at hand. We confessionally reformed confess, as one seminary prof. put it, “Not only do we believe we are depraved; we practice it.” What we cannot miss here is that when we do so, we are talking about ourselves as Christians. Presumably, many of those already deciding the case in favor of SGM would at least intellectually assent to this, but they are showing a rather stunning incapacity to actually believe it and apply it. I mean, the statement by one that “C.J. is only human” sounds like something most non-Christians would say when justifying sin.

    I think a more sober and theologically coherent response would be, “Well, CJ is sinful, even depraved, like all of us, and therefore is capable of some horrendous sins, and so I hold out the possibility that he may have indeed sinned terribly in this situation and if proven that he has, should be disciplined accordingly and held accountable to the civil authorities if guilty of breaking any laws.”