EChurch@Wartburg – 4.22.12

Welcome to Our Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg

Enhanced Rainbow by Barb Ver Sluis

Here is our order of worship


A Prayer for Strength and Wisdom Link
Thank you, Lord, for being there for me and allowing me to cry out to you in my times of need.
It is amazing to me that the Lord of the Universe would take time to listen to me and to care about what I say.
God, there are things happening around me right now that I do not understand. 
Some of these things make me feel weak, helpless and afraid.
Even in the midst of this, I know that you are the Lord.
I know that the situation is in Your hand, and I trust You.
I beseech you for strength and for wisdom that I would be able to endure this situation 
and be able to handle it in a way that would bring glory to Your name.
In Jesus name. Amen.

(If you click on the You Tube symbol, bottom right, you can watch the video and see the lyrics)

A prayer of Dietrich Bonhoeffer  Link

O God, early in the morning I cry to you.
Help me to pray
And to concentrate my thoughts on you:
I cannot do this alone.
In me there is darkness,
But with you there is light;
I am lonely, but you do not leave me;
I am feeble in heart, but with you there is help;
I am restless, but with you there is peace.
In me there is bitterness, but with you there is patience;
I do not understand your ways,
But you know the way for me…
Restore me to liberty,
And enable me to live now
That I may answer before you and before me.
Lord, whatever this day may bring,
Your name be praised.


If you are new to EChurch, please click on this link for an explanation

Scripture Reading:  Hebrews 10:22 (NASB Bible Gateway)

"…let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

Please pray:

The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall not want.
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
He leads me beside quiet waters, He restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness for His name's sake.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil, for You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.
Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life,
And I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
Amen. NASB

The Aaronic Blessing

Unto God’s gracious mercy and protection we commit you.
The Lord bless you and keep you.
The Lord make his face to shine upon you,
and be gracious to you.
The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
(Numbers 6: 24-6)

Thank you for spending your precious time worshipping the Lord.


EChurch@Wartburg – 4.22.12 — 26 Comments

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    Thank you, Wade. That change of conscience? Oh, it happens! But hang in there, my brother and sisters, it can take a long time, a lifetime. Do not be discouraged by slow growth, cuz it’s not up to you. I will happen.
    Grace, peace, and blessings. Thanks to dee and deb also for hosting Wade on your site.

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    Agreed! Thanks for the encouraging word!


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    I started my Saturday morning with EChurch and have had such a blessed day! I am very grateful…

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    “I have to say to you…”

    HowDee YaAll,


    You shared in your message concerning intimacy with God that if we don’t do it for ourselves, it won’t happen; so we must take responsibility for our own heart, and for our own intimacy with God, as no one else can do it for us.


    Today, personal church injury (much identified as coming from the church pulpit) is keeping many from subjecting themselves again to such a potentially abusive situation, such as the many documented encounters in Sovereign Grace Ministries, and Acts 29 churches.  That may mean continued absence of church attendance.  Many are having a time of it trying to separate the injury they have encountered, from the sources. Personal church injury is also keeping many from trusting the words found in the bible. Many are now seeing the misuse of the bible in the pulpit and its misuse also in the associated church care groups, as one of the sole reasons they are walking away from church attendance all together, and from spiritual things in general. We are now apparently witnessing some type of corruption of the venerable SBC by the proverbial leaven of SGM, ACTS29, 9Marks, and the T4G organizations. There may be other organizations involved also. Many are wondering, how long it will be before SBC churches succumb to the same spiritually abusive practices that have been profusely documented to date in the aforementioned church organizations? How long will it be before the SBC compromises the churches within its own establishment (if not already), and possibly yours as well?

    Where are kind folk going to attend church then?

    Well, kind folks have TWW…

    That’s ‘Good News’ (grin)

    Thanx Dee, Thanx Deb!

    What a wonderful thing y’all are doing. Self-less, Genuine, Ever Hopeful.

    Hear these words of our Dear Sweet Lord Jesus, who Crowned, will one day rule the Earth, as ancient Hebrew prophesy, hath foretold:   

    “When you have done this to the least of these, you have done it to me.”

    Thank you, from the bottom of my widdle he♥rt.


    n’ He ever hearz me! Sweeeeeeeeeet!!



     BarlowGirl – “Never Alone”

    Comic relief: In Honor: Harrison Ford – On Indiana Jones And Sean Connery at the AFI Life Achievement Award

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    I wondered how long it would take before someone commented on that portion of the message! 🙂 Thanks for listening so well and for your comment.

    I think you have PRECISELY hit my meaning. Nobody is responsible for your intimacy with God but you. And, if a church is PROHIBITING your walk with God from deepening and become more personal and intimate, then the church has failed — but you can’t blame the church! Do something yourself!

    And, I think our friends Deb and Dee are helping! 🙂

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    Each week during the intro to Pastor Wade’s sermon, I feel a great sense of anticipation. I can’t put my finger on it…the appropriate word for it escapes me, but there’s a tremendous difference between being entertained and/or shamed through a sermon and being spiritually strengthened and edified.

    Only one other time in my 37 yrs. of walking with the Lord did the Word bring such a powerful reaction. At the end of a prophetic word, the entire church in unison fell to their knees. It was indeed an experience I’ll never forget.

    That’s the reaction my soul experiences with Pastor Wade’s sermons. Sometimes, strangely enough, when it feels almost more than I can bear, I have to stop the video and get up to regain my “composure.” My spirit is soooo full and is rejoicing at the words spoken.

    I can’t thank you all enough for this e-church.

    Bless you!

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    Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this church. It is our hope that folks will see how freeing a good leader can be.

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    What a powerful testimony. I am definitely grateful for the work of the Holy Spirit in your life (and mine) through the freeing truth of His Word! The faithful, consistent exposition of the Word brings joy and freedom, just as you say! Thanks for taking the time to comment!

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    I am so sorry. I will pray for you, you dad and your family.

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    Eagle –

    Praying for you and your family.

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    Incredibly sorry the scan came back with bad news. Will continue to pray for this tough situation..

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    Eagle: I respect your honesty. I don’t think we can be anything other than who we really are, and you can smell a fake a mile away. You can’t be that way. I think that is great.

    I am not sure I should respond in the way I am going to, but felt compelled to share something with you. You don’t need a building such as a church or another person to be able to have intimacy with God. As Wade has said, you must understand that the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed you from all guilt.

    I was raised in a very strict legalistic Baptist church. As I became an adult, I would read scripture on my own. The Psalms was a book that I dove into because David committed sin, went through a lot of what I felt I was going through with Saul after him wanting to kill him, yet he still had this honest relationship(intimacy) with God. At this same time I had discovered Keith Green’s music at a Christian book store and had bought a LP(shows my age) of his music. I was blown away at his deep love for Christ, his intimacy with Christ. I wanted that so deeply I began to pray to have this same kind of relationship. God more than answered my prayer, and I was as far from the church as one could get at the time. I just began to have a deep desire and followed that desire. Many, many years later, and many times refusing to be a fake, to be real, it’s been wonderful.

    I have never blamed God for anything but I have cried out to God in the privacy of my room, for certain circumstances that have occurred. I have yelled at God, questioned God, cried out in deep pain to God, revealing my utmost well….everything that was on my heart, not worrying whether it was the right or wrong thing to do. It’s been beyond my wildest dreams the intimacy I have with God, that anyone can have who has Christ as their Savior. I believe even if one is not born again yet, if that desire for intimacy is there, it is leading to something and God hears and responds.

    The Psalms is a great book to see what intimacy with God looks like.

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    BTW: The song that I heard from Keith Green that pierced my heart, making me see who I really was in Christ was

    I heard this song and cried literally for hours. It begins “My son, my son, my son why are you striving?”

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    Listened to Wade yesterday morning. I am still chewing over the message. I don’t know why I am having confusing feelings about it. I understand the responsibility part. No matter what my old church did to me, it is my responsibility to accept or deny God and foster a relationship with him. As a sinner saved by grace (fundy terminology), wouldn’t I feel even more guilty over the sins I keep committing and battle with every day?? I pray for God to work thru me and help rid these feelings of unforgiveness, judging, being critical, etc. I heard James McDonald this morning on the radio say that if I have a critical spirit toward others who are Christian, I’m not saved. (sound familiar!!) Anyway, I’m confused but will listen to Wade’s message again.

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    Scooter’s Mom,

    I thought of you during the message. I wondered, “I wonder how Scooter’s Mom will receive this part on responsibility?” That may sound strange, but I do think of individuals as I am teaching.

    I thought there was great potential for misunderstanding, so I am delighted you commented (as well as Eagle, whom I will respond to in just a moment). Here’s what I’m hoping I communicate from the message: Religious institutions hurt people. Controlling pastors hurt people. Legitimate hurt from controlling, abusive religious leaders is real. BUT…

    Nobody can take away your intimacy with God. Nobody steps between you and your Father. Ultimately, to assign my inability to relate to God to another human being is not taking responsibility myself for learning about God’s immeasurable grace, His unfathomable and unconditional love, and His warm embrace of me no matter how unfaithful I am to Him. That’s what the cross and the resurrection of Christ does for the person who trusts in Christ.

    Now, having said the above, the state (which Eagle makes) is a good one … “Maybe that was part of the problem with what I was taught earlier. And the fruit of that teaching was setting myself up for crushing disappointment.”


    Debbie Kaufman gets it. The Christian who renews his or her mind with the incredible, freeing, good news (the truth sets you free) will never again take the position “YOU have taken away my ability to relate to God!” Why? Because the truth is like a lion uncaged. There is no stopping it. And, when the truth sets you free, you can’t be stopped from having incredible, personal, freeing intimacy with God.

    I don’t know if this makes sense, but I trust that the next message on Hebrews will help. Thanks so much for thinking, for chewing, for commenting. Whether you agree with me or not is not the issue. I pray for freedom in your soul.

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    Debbie Kaufman and I wish you were at Emmanuel! Your comment reveals the PRECISE type of Christianity we value: real, raw, vulnerable, expressive, etc… What an incredible comment!

    What struck me is this paragraph: “So today I feel like I have to do one of two things. Be perfect for the church and have no problems with sin, or crushing personal doubt. Or I could pretend and play the game and live a double life. Say one thing and do another. Personally I can’t do that… Yet I have known Christians who have done that…”

    Next EChurch at Wartburg will answer your dilemma from Hebrews 10:23. I hope to show you that Christ forever PUT AWAY SIN for you and when He comes for you a second time (the first time was Calvary), He will come for you (at death or His coming to usher in eternity) WITHOUT REFERENCE TO SIN. God demands from you NEITHER perfection nor crushing guilt. Why? Because He has GIVEN PERFECT RIGHTEOUS to you in His Son and He has REMOVED ALL GUILT through His Son. Now, quit focusing on your sin so much and start focusing on His love.

    The evangelical church gets the message wrong. They say to the world who has never come to faith in Christ – “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life,” but when those folks come to Christ and enter the church then pastors hammer believers with “God wants you to cease your struggle with sin and be Perfect like His Son.” The use of abuse, discipline and spiritual “authority” and control by church leaders to “hammer sin out” of church members is about the sickest thing going on in the evangelical church.

    If you have come to faith in Christ – relax and enjoy. Relax and enjoy life. Relax and enjoy Him. I believe next week’s message will help you see the biblical basis for this joy and confidence in Him.

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    Thanks for addressing the concerns of Eagle and Scooter’s Mom.

    I wholeheartedly agree with your statement: “The use of abuse, discipline and spiritual “authority” and control by church leaders to “hammer sin out” of church members is about the sickest thing going on in the evangelical church.”

    Hammering out sin in church members is alive and well, especially in Calvinista-type churches.

    For example, in the Ambassadors of Reconciliation report that was released last week, the “Doctrine of Sin” was discussed. Page 15 of the AoR Report states:

    Doctrine of Sin

    “As we met with people, they often mentioned the Doctrine of Sin and described the impact on their personal and corporate lives. Obviously the organization’s teaching on the Doctrine of Sin plays an important role in the church’s preaching and practice as well as within small group ministries.

    Many described the extent at which small groups would hold one another accountable by scrutinizing each other’s lives according to the Doctrine of Sin. A number of people noted how this had helped them or others grow deeply in their understanding of Scripture and their personal faith.

    Some who were critical of SGM (including those still in SGM churches) described how small group leaders or pastors or SGM leaders worked to “drill down” (an actual quote) to the root causes of people’s sins. Some described being examined by their leader (in various levels) for several hours. Although seen as a blessing or strength by many, others saw an abusive side of the practice of this teaching when it had the affect of beating people down or unfairly scrutinizing them.” (p. 15)

    We discussed the AoR report last week. For more information, go here.

    Then last week we started getting comments about Redemption Groups being established at Mars Hill Church. Something similar to what occurs in SGM happens in these groups. The leaders are trained to “drill down” to the root causes of people’s sins. We are investigating Redemption Groups and will be reporting on them soon.

    It is extremely disconcerting that SGM and Mars Hill are engaging in these ungodly practices and likely teaching others (pastors & churches) to do the same.

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    Wade, Deb, & Eagle

    Wade – you did help to clarify the responsibility issue. I was on my way to that conclusion, albeit verrrry slowly!! I absolutely love what you wrote here – “God demands from you NEITHER perfection nor crushing guilt. Why? Because He has GIVEN PERFECT RIGHTEOUS to you in His Son and He has REMOVED ALL GUILT through His Son. Now, quit focusing on your sin so much and start focusing on His love” – You, Deb, & Dee along with the other commentors have helped me start this journey of focusing on God’s love. I have setbacks but I have to keep moving forward. Can’t wait for next week’s message. FYI – I feel closer to God now than I ever have in my life. I, by myself, keep searching and learning more about Him. and in turn, He is becoming more real to me.

    Eagle – I so love to read your insights. I agree with so much that you say. We could have grown up in the same church!! Like you, I love Yancey. He says out loud what many christians are thinking and afraid to ask. Now wonder he is considered “liberal” by many baptist churches.

    Thank you Deb & Dee, for staying positive and giving a slap on the back to all of us.

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    “Today’s people would be the alcoholics, those dealing with porn, the homosexual who can’t break the cycle, the person with HIV, the single mother who had a kid from a one night stand after meeting someone in a bar, etc. A lot of the later really don’t darken churches today. One thing that I have a hard time reconciling is some of the bar conversations I’ve had with a few people. They were willing to tell me stuff they would never tell in church. I don’t know if this was because I told them I no longer considered myself Christian.”

    Wow. That is my kind of church. Give me the city, the bar’s name, and the street, and I would like to join you one night.

    I’m dead serious.

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    Jesus came offering life, living water, freedom from oppression, comfort for the brokenhearted, liberty for those held captive, and to bring good news to the afflicted. It was the Pharisees who placed heavy burdens on others that they themselves couldn’t bear.

    Jesus came to clothe those who have a spirit of heaviness and grief with a garment of joy and praise.


    This is the central message of the gospel and is the one that is most often neglected in many churches.

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    Next time you visit our Nation’s Capitol, you’ll have to Eagle know in advance since that’s where he lives.

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    Scooter’s Mom,

    If someone has been trapped in legalism for a while, s(he) must go through a process of de-programming. That’s what I believe you’re experiencing right now. It’s likely two steps forward and one step back – at times it may be one step forward and two steps back. Hopefully, there is a forward progression in the Christian walk. Don’t forget, we’re walking this path together! Be patient and trust in the Lord.

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    Yes, one step forward two steps back. thank you Deb.

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    sprinkled, dipped, or dunked, -faith is the path we walk.

    have u strayed upon another?

    bury’d in Him, yet raised to life through Him…

    have u strayed upon another path?

    Please hear His kind & sooth’in words:

    “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.”

    …tie them as a pair of shinny lit’l red bells for each shoe upon thy feet, kind Sir! When you walk upon the path, they will jingle, and give a pleasant sound!, n’ remain in your thoughts, these words: “It is He, the Kind Shepherd, Jesus, that shall direct thine path.”

    So for now: Rest ye thine head, here upon the blanket we have placed here  near the Shade Tree of TWW,  where there is cool water ta drink, and rest for you weary soul.

    You are among friends!

    Try the egg salad sandwiches, they are particularly good! 


    …have a bless’d day. (your dad is prayfully in good hands!)


    S㋡py & friends
    Air1 – BarlowGirl “Never Alone”

    Inspiration: “Isaiah 53” -His servant ‘stricken’ so we would not be…

    Rest ye, your weary head… (for)
    Surely  He -The Messiah, Jesus, Hath Borne Our Griefs…

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    Deb: PERF last comment.

    Eagle: Wade is dead serious when he says he is dead serious.