“If we discover a desire within us that nothing in this world can satisfy, also we should begin to wonder if perhaps we were created for another world. -CS Lewis
This is a difficult post to write because some of my thinking is in transition. My guess is that I will please few people but here it goes.
As most of our readers know my daughter as diagnosed with a large malignant brain tumor when she was 3 years old. Her prognosis was poor and we thought she would die. This story, however, has a happy ending. Not only did she survive, but also she is now an Emergency Room nurse, serving those who are starting their fearsome journey into the medical world.
Because I would not know for years how her life would turn out, I went through a tough time, questioning what life is all about. I spent untold hours, through the years, waiting to see doctors in the Neuro-Oncology Clinic. We spent days and weeks in the hospital as my daughter underwent extensive, exacting neurosurgery. We watched little children suffer and die from their diseases and watched one too many families dissolve under the pressures.
And I wrestled with God, trying to figure out the answers to life’s difficult questions. Many times, I just spent time crying my eyes out and praying for strength.
Here were my some of my questions:
- Why does God allow little children to suffer?
- What is the point of creating these little ones, only to have them die at the age of 3?
- Why did He choose my sweet daughter to suffer?
- Why me?
Those questions gave rise to even more ponderings.
- Why are people born with handicaps?
- Why do some people seem to struggle with issues such as homosexuality?
- Why are kids born into horribly abusive homes?
About 6 weeks before my daughter became ill, I read a book called Disappointment with God by Philip Yancey, Amazon link.
At Amazon, it is described as this.
“Is God unfair? Is he silent? Is he hidden? In this profoundly personal book, these questions are answered with clarity, richness, and biblical certainty. Philip Yancey points to the odd disparity between our concept of God and the realities of life.”
This book began to chip away at my assumptions about God. Perhaps the idea that most resonated with me was God’s purpose in His relationship with His people. He provided miracle after miracle for his people, they would repent and within short order go back to worshipping idols. Miracles did not ensure faith. Maybe faith is maintained by something deeper. Could it be the promise of the life to come?
Over time, I began to see that the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites were a perfect metaphor for the trajectory of our lives. We are on this planet, walking through a wilderness, heading to a Promised Land. But, we will not reach the Promised Land in this life (unless Jesus returns). In other words, we are currently stuck in a world that is filled with pain and suffering. All is not as it should be. Of course we have the joys of family and friendship (if we are so blessed), we have God leading the way, giving us the Holy Spirit as Comforter, and we have occasional moments at the oasis, with refreshing water and rest. But, we were not meant to stay in this fallen world.
Jesus gave us a clue that there is something far more important is afoot.
Please read this event in Mark 2:1-12. (NIV)
1. A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”
Jesus was more interested in forgiving this man’s sins, not healing his paralysis! Why? The sin thing was far more important than the healing. Of course He healed the man perhaps to show the Pharisees that He had the ability to forgive sins..
Why was the healing of this man’s sins so important? Wasn’t it a little presumptuous of Jesus to discuss this man’s sins when he was obviously in need of healing?
Did Jesus know something that the man, the Pharisees and his friends did not? He most certainly did. He knew that this man was going to die in the near future. The healing of his legs was a short-term solution. Jesus had a permanent answer. That was the promise of eternity. Not just any eternity- an eternity marked with no more pain and suffering, along with the promise of joy, love, fellowship and creativity. It will be an eternal home with no more wilderness wanderings.
And there is a longing in all mankind for a permanent resolution. We long for a world that exhibits justice, mercy, forgiveness, love and understanding. Yet, throughout the history of mankind, we have tried and have not been able to provide such a place. We have legislated, fought wars for freedom and wars against poverty. Yet, man has not essentially changed. And we long for a better world.
CS Lewis said: “If we discover a desire within us that nothing in this world can satisfy, also we should begin to wonder if perhaps we were created for another world.”
John backs that up. John 17-14-16 (NIV)
"I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it."
The Mystery: We Are Made for Another World!
The answer to all of my questions, in part is this. Someday, all will be made right. But, not right now. For now, we are a group of travelers walking through a wilderness, heading for home. So, when that 3 year old dies, she has walked through the wilderness, straight into her new home and into the embrace of her Savior. When the schizophrenic cannot overcome his delusions and eventually dies, he is now free. He has survived his walk in the wilderness and is now home, totally healed, rejoicing he is now part of a greater reality that is not colored by delusions.
The longer I live, the more I see that there is no “final” solution in this world, although we are called to care for the poor, the lost, the sick and the dying. We are to help them on their wilderness journey, perhaps pushing them in their wheelchairs, holding their hands, and encouraging them on the way, embraced by the rest of the Fellowship of the Wounded who know where to find healing.
We Christians are blessed. We have been given the Holy Spirit as our travelling companion. We know the truth and can wrestle with the Bible’s admonitions.
But, what about those who do not see the world to come? They reject it and therefore reject the commandments of our Bible. Herein lies my struggle. For these people, this world is all they know and they have no assurances of a life to come. So, they seek happiness for today.
I have a friend who I met before she was a Christian. One day she asked me about the prolife stance of Christians. I told her that it would be very difficult for me to convince her of my beliefs because, at the core, I believe that God is the author of life and I seek to follow His ways.
Instead, I focused on the faith. Shortly thereafter, my friend became a Christian. She once again asked me to explain why I was opposed to abortion. I took her through the Scriptures, which now made sense to her, and today she volunteers in a pregnancy support center.
There is another thing that occurs when we become Christians. We are imbued with the Holy Spirit who is our encourager and illuminator. This Holy Spirit gives us courage to bear the impossible and to live within the parameters of the Scriptures. Can we really expect those who do not hold to absolute truth and do not have the presence of the Spirit to act in the same manner as Christians?
Once again, I call attention to a quote by C S Lewis.
"There ought to be two distinct kinds of marriage: one governed by the State with rules enforced on all citizens, the other governed by the Church with rules enforced by her on her own members. The distinction ought to be quite sharp, so that a man knows which couples are married in a Christian sense and which are not.”
"Before leaving the question of divorce, I should like to distinguish two things which are very often confused. The Christian conception of marriage is one: the other is the quite different question — how far Christians, if they are voters or Members of Parliament, ought to try to force their views of marriage on the rest of the community by embodying them in the divorce laws.
A great many people seem to think that if you are a Christian yourself you should try to make divorce difficult for every one. I do not think that. At least I know I should be very angry if the Mahommedans tried to prevent the rest of us from drinking wine. My own view is that the Churches should frankly recognise that the majority of the British people are not Christians and, therefore, cannot be expected to live Christian lives."
I had the unique opportunity to discuss the faith with a conservative Christian female pastor (yes, folks, such a person exists) who is unmarried. She wishes to be married but has not found a spouse. She said that she has found love and strength in the fellowship of her brothers and sisters in her church. She is included in holidays, has more friends than she could ever have imagined and has experienced the deep love within the context of the community to which she belongs. She made a poignant point. She reminded me that, in heaven, there will be no marriage and instead, we will share the deeper communion found in the unity of brothers and sisters. She says that she has experienced a taste of that future state in her current church.
So, is it fair that the Bible says a Christian homosexual cannot act on his passions? What about the man whose wife contracts Lou Gehrig’s disease and cannot be a wife to him? How about the single woman who never meets a spouse and wishes she could be married? How about the mother of four children whose husband dumped her for another?
The answer is quite simple, yet very difficult. We are not made for this world. Life is not fair at this time, yet all will be well. Instead we must join hands and act like the loving fellowship that we are called to be while helping each other to survive the wilderness. And we must believe that the Holy Spirit will strengthen and provide.
How about those who are not Christians?
I will be honest. This question is very difficult. Although I believe that God’s truths apply to all mankind, I also do not know how those who do not have the encouragement of the Spirit in their lives can be expected to see things our way.
God has put in place our government. In the United States that means all people have access to vote for the laws of the land. Certainly Christians can vote their conscience. However, we can assume that those who do not know God may vote and influence things in a very different direction.
For example, in the United Sates, it is legal for a man and woman to live together. Just a few short years ago, laws were overturned to make this a reality. Yet, I rarely see Christians trying to influence those laws. Why?
Wade Burleson, commenting here on the previous quote by Lewis said:
“The problem with political liberals and political conservatives who happen to be Christian is that they confuse the church with the state and vice-versa. Christ said, "My kingdom is NOT of this world" and the sooner His followers realize this, the less angry we Christians will be when the political world moves in directions opposite of the principles of Scripture. It doesn't mean we don't participate in the political process, it just means as C.S. Lewis brilliantly pointed out, that we cannot expect the majority of people in America to live Christian lives, for the majority of people in America may not even know the Christ of whom we speak.”
Here is our problem. We cannot expect those who do not adhere to our principles to accept our premise of what constitutes a moral life. We can preach it, teach it, vote it and screech it. But, without the presence of the Sprit in the lives of the non-believers, how do we convince them of the truth?
If we look at the early church, we see that the church thrived in the midst of a pagan culture, which rejected the values of these Jesus followers. The immorality of the Romans was legendary. The Christians were despised and martyred in droves. Yet, the faith survived and grew, becoming the predominant religion by the 300s.
A funny thing happened when Christians acquired this new-found acceptance. They became the persecutors-forcing conversions and killing those who stood in their way. Does power corrupt the faith?
I believe that we should look at those who do not know the Lord with compassion and we should also demonstrate our understanding this life is all they know. They walk through the wilderness without the benefit of the Spirit. They are bereft of a holy Garmin that points to the end destination. We should show compassion for them, demonstrating that we understand why they search for loving relationships and joy in this life. And maybe they will see our love for them and one another and join us on our trek through the wilderness.
Lydia's Corner: 2 Chronicles 6:12-8:10 Romans 7:14-8:8 Psalm 18:1-15 Proverbs 19:24-25
Well said.
Wow.
Dear Pastor Dee, thanks so much. With flowing tears a hundred thoughts are rushing though my mind, and as many feelings pulsing through my heart.
The 1st thought that popped into my mind:
What do you tell a teenager who is being bullied by other kids for
1. Appearing to be (or being) gay/lesbian?
2. To a straight boy or girl who is being bullied for other reasons, but especially when the epithets include slurs against gays and lesbians?
3. Especially when some – or all – of the bullies families’ claim to be “Christian”?
Words hurt. Condemnation hurts. Being told – as a gay teen – that you are NOT ok, that in fact, you cannot grow up to lead a “normal” life because of your sexual orientation and attractions… I just could not be party to that, not anymore. (Not after having been bullied myself through most of my school years, though not for being perceived as gay or lesbian.)
What about the gay and lesbian and trans folks in Uganda, Jamaica and other countries (including the USA) who have been raped, jailed, tortured – and killed – for their sexual orientation? (Trust me, this is real…)
*
If we were able to time-travel, what would we say to
– people disembarking from slave ships?
– people being persecuted by the KKK?
– all those who were harmed by Jim Crow laws?
I can’t imagine that the answer could ever be “You will get justice (or love, or grace, or whatever) after you die, because God cares enough about your immortal soul – but not your mortal life, not really.”
Hmm..
(Good post, btw, Dee – just not sure it goes quite far enough, but it’s good.)
Well, you sure haven’t offended me! But then, if you live in a country where Christians don’t have the same political power as they do in the US, you live your life in the awareness that you can’t control what the world says and does, you can only seek to live your own life in obedient faith (surviving because we look forward to another world where all that is broken and missing shall be fixed and fulfilled)In the last 25 years in Australia our Prime Ministers have included 2 avowed atheists (our present PM is not only an atheist but lives with a man she is not married to) and, amongst others, there was another who, after leaving office upon electoral defeat, left his (very beautiful) wife and entered a gay relationship (which the press barely mentioned). And we Christians are just as free as we ever were, in the midst of all this, to go on seeking to live godly lives according to our understanding of what that means. The world hasn’t ended.
“If we were able to time-travel, what would we say to
– people disembarking from slave ships
– people being persecuted by the KKK?
– all those who were harmed by Jim Crow laws?
I keep thinking about the business meeting held at my SBC church about 1970 when I was in high school. It was the longest and best attended meeting I could ever remember. The topic was “what do we do if one of them shows up and wants to join”. I was dumb enough to be surprised there would be a question. There was no decision made but our family friend, the pastor, was soon asked to leave as he was obviously on the side of “why is this an issue”.
Jack
I want you to know that you are frequently in my thoughts and I pray for you regularly. After all, you are my church of one!
Numo
Thanks for your kind words. If you carefully read what I said, you will find that I said some things that will cause some people within the evangelical church to get really mad at me.
As you know, there is a dominionism movement that is gaining strength. I am trying to finish up reading on the history of this movement before i start writing. Did you know that there are some who would advocate killing people who do not adhere to the OT “rules?” Of course, that would be only if they got into power which they won’t, in my opinion. But, their ideas are subtly influencing the mainstream of evangelicalism and it is from this root that I believe the vitriol is coming.
Numo
I agree with you that the following is hideous “What do you tell a teenager who is being bullied by other kids for 1. Appearing to be (or being) gay/lesbian?2. To a straight boy or girl who is being bullied for other reasons, but especially when the epithets include slurs against gays and lesbians?” What makes me sad is that many of the kids doing this are being raised in Christian homes. This is abhorrent to the Lord. Yet parents, who want their kids to be “popular” let it go. If only these parents could see themselves through God’s eyes…
Lynne
Once again, thank you for your comment. It helps us all to see that we truly live in two worlds. No matter what happens in the outside world, Christians will be just fine. We should strive to spend more time influencing individuals and less time advocating for political solutions. Politics will not save anyone but Jesus will. Don;t get me wrong. We have a right to intervene in the process and have our voice heard. But, do people hear us as a lovely sound or just another subgroup screaming for “our rights?”
Lynn
Ouch!
Dee–
Excellent post. I can see that your focus was not on trying to be comprehensive in understanding why we experience suffering, but to help us think about our expectations and purpose in this life, versus the next.
I think the thoughts on non-Christians and our expectations of them is helpful as well. I know that I need to have more compassion and understanding for others. As a Christian, I still sometimes live as if this life is the only one. How then should I understand more than someone who doesn’t know God would live? I’d live the same as they are: seeking all joy and gratification in the here and now. It makes sense. It really makes sense.
Hmmm… lots to think about.
I love Yancey because he asks the questions we want to ask, but sometimes are afraid to. I also appreciate his effort in making it all make sense, even when it still doesn’t make sense.
Thank you for also sharing more about what happened with your daughter. I have wondered about that and how she is now. I can’t imagine going to the hospital and seeing other children die like that, which is heartbreaking, and then thinking the same could happen to your own. I feel sad for those other families, yet rejoice that your daughter is healthy.
My co-worker’s mom was just diagnosed with gall bladder cancer. Her faith is along the lines of name-it, claim-it, and healing is based on faith and godliness. She asked what I believed, and I told her that I believe that prayer is effective, but that God simply will decide what shall happen. In the end, I have to know that even if God doesn’t answer the way that I have prayed for, that it wasn’t because of my faith or lack thereof, or because of my lack of quiet times, or because of anything else. But it doesn’t have anything to do with his love or understanding. I told her that I believe that God makes decisions we don’t agree with and in any case, it could go either way. But to have hope and pray for the outcome and see what he does. I prayed with her, and we asked that God would heal her mom completely. I dont know what God is going to do, but life has taught me that He doesn’t always say yes. That’s the hard part.
I have lost 3 people in my family this year, and although I prayed for their healing, it was very real to me that the possibility was high that they would die. They did die. But it was my expectation that it would go either way. And so I was not surprised. Nevertheless, there were still shed tears, mourning and grief.
Oh and I’m ordering this one on Amazon right now. This is the VERY argument that God and I have been having these past few months, and last week, it was quite a heated one. This internal struggle to believe that God loves you, especially when you see gross unfairness and injustice in life, and particularly, in the church. It’s a hard situation to regard and make sense of. Especially when you thought you were being obedient to God’s commands, or doing what he required, only to find out completely different that they were wrong and you were wrong. I’m like God, how can you fix all this? And why are you letting me suffer becasue of it? Doesn’t it mean anything to you that I have tried my best?
So we will see what He, God, has to say about it all. But right now, I’m like a disgruntled spouse.
Interesting observation as well: It seemed to me that my theologically correct, superior doctrine church always had something to say about word-faith theology, name-it, claim-it. You can get what you want as long as you pray hard enough for it, say the right prayer a millino times (Jabez), and fast. Clearly, to the neo-Reformed, that was misapplication of Scripture.
BUT they couldn’t see that they do the same exact thing, just in a more “biblically” correct manner. Because if you do this right, serve this way, read this book, pray this way, go to this conference, pattern your life, marriage, kids this way, court and not date, have everybody involved in your relationship to the most intimate levels, and so forth–then you will have a good life. You will get the marriage, the kids, the sanctification, the holiness and be counted as a REAL bonafide Christian. I know I’m not the only one who sees that?
I read the article very quickly, but did I see a hint of universalism or the possibility of it in that post?
(BTW – no condemnation from me if there is.)
Word. Dee, thank you for that. Those are the kind of words, strung together, that the current mega-church preacher ought to use, rather than all the hype and flash they use to attract a crowd. These words change lives, not just heat them up and then leave them wanting. I can only imagine…comes to mind.
NLR
We all want the correct formula that guarantees success. And, when it doesn’t work out, some leave the faith and others just keep adding more and more rules. The rest of us, however, argue it through with God and admit our inability to totally understand what is going on. Someone said that our ability to understand God is like the mollusk’s ability to understand us. We have some basic guidelines as put forth in Scripture. But, we must always remember that God created everything that we see and can even imagine. His ways are beyond us and we need to have some humility when we tell others that “if you follow these rules, you will have a happy……marriage, kids, career, whatever. Nope- no guarantees.
Former Fellow
Thanks for you comments. I only have one bone to pick. If you are referring to the song Imagine-I do believe that there is religion but that it is bound up in a relationship with Jesus Christ. It was this understanding or relationship that brought me into the other world and the goal to which I am pressing on.
There seemed to be a lot of empathy for unbelievers in your post. I have had to look at my life before I came to know Jesus Christ. As far as I can tell looking back, it was not that I was rejecting Jesus or God, it was just ignorance. I was raised in a traditional church, but I went just because my parents wanted me to. I never really got it.
My main question was – “Jesus came back to life in 3 days, so where is the big sacrifice? He did not stay dead.” It was an honest question that no one could answer for me. I don’t feel that I was rejecting Christ, it just did not make sense to me.
So like you said in your post, God knows more about us that we know about ourselves. He knows exactly what makes us tick, and why we think the way we do. I do not know why anyone with a correct understanding of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Father, and the salvation that they bring, would reject it. I rejected a fallacy – a wrong idea about Jesus, I was not rejecting Jesus Himself. When I did finally meet Him, I fell deeply in love with Him. What was there to reject? NOTHING! He was totally glorious and magnificent! He was beautiful beyond compare!
So anyway, I think people are unbelievers in their ignorance. I think a true knowing of Christ will melt even the most rebellious heart, just like David Berkowitz – the Son of Sam.
Just me 2 cents
Everyone here, Dee, Deb, Guy, Christains, atheists, etc…as a Christian, I get more out of this site than you can possibly know. This site is a great place to understand, to love, and to remember what’s important.
Eagle while what you state might have some truth the heart of the problem is sin. Many Christians (Protestants and Catholic alike) view homosexuality as a sin because that is scriptural view of it. That is what angers homosexuals the most about Christians, not anything Focus on the Family does. It’s that we think it’s wrong and therefore they want our acceptance of their lifestyle to be forced and have turned to the government to make that happen. This is where I think Christians do have a place in influencing laws and government Dee. Our freedom to think and believe however we want is threatened. These are freedoms our forefathers fought for we should too. You are right though; government should not be in the bussiness of legislating morality, we should however (within the law) fight whenever our freedoms are threatened.
@ Dee: yep, I’m all too aware of the folks (a diverse group) who want to make homosexuality a capital crime. (Hint: look at US evangelical/charismatic influence in Uganda…)
Am waiting for the upcoming series of posts, and really, in this one, you’ve hit it out of the ballpark in re. that.
Dee, the MercyMe version. But I am old enough to have been referring to Mr. Lennon.
I just read my post and it is confusing. I am not saying that homosexuals and child molesters are on the same level. I was simply trying to point out that both are in a sexually perverted state. Adults who are sexually attracted to children are perverted. Something has gone terribly wrong. Although it is not on the same level, homosexuality (in my estimation) means something has gone terribly wrong also. I do not know what, but I do know that many have turned a 180 to heterosexuality. Therapy helps some. Prayer helps some. Conversion to Christianity has helped many!
Again, I realize this may be terribly offensive to some, but that is not my intent whatsoever. Just wanting to express my mindset on the matter from one Christian’s dilemma over this.
Jerry
Interestingly, it is when Christians do not have the freedom of expression that the church grows. Could it be that freedom promotes complacency? Does persecution breed a greater number who find understand that our kingdom is not of this world?
Former
Sorry- I love the Mercy Me song. I am a little touchy. i have recently been accused of being more sympathetic to atheists than Christians. Glad to know you are part of the wilderness wanderers.
Lynn wrote
I keep thinking about the business meeting held at my SBC church about 1970 when I was in high school. It was the longest and best attended meeting I could ever remember. The topic was “what do we do if one of them shows up and wants to join”. I was dumb enough to be surprised there would be a question. There was no decision made but our family friend, the pastor, was soon asked to leave as he was obviously on the side of “why is this an issue”.
Which is pretty much why I posted those questions… meaning re. the attitudes of people in this church, not you personally.
Great thoughts!
Dee I gotta be honest here. I’ll take Lennon’s “Imagine” any day of the week. I have no desire to go to conservative evangelical heaven anyway. I’d prefer something like Lennon’s version any day too. Why can’t “heaven” be different for different folks?
Anyways, in all sincerity, have you considered Divinity School? I rather like the sound of Rev. Dee, it has a ring to it.
Eagle
I think the basis for judging sin is this. Does the person want to deal with it? Interestingly, I had a discussion on another blog with a man who said that he couldn’t lose weight even though he exercised, etc. So he had stopped being concerned. I saw a picture of him and he was morbidly obese. When I asked him what diet he was on, he refused to answer. His problem is that he did not want to deal with his sin, even when that sin would most likely lead to an early death which would hurt his loved one.
Now, I know some people who really try to lose weight by watching what they eat, getting help, etc. Sure, they fail at times but they “want to.”
I that God is more interested in the struggle, not the end result. Face it, in heaven, we will not be morbidly obese.Temptation will cease. But, until the day we get there, we will struggle and commit, falling down, picking ourselves up and starting all over again. And that, Eagle, is the essence of the faith-the struggle not the victory. There will be some victories but there will always be struggles that replace it. And the grace of Jesus covers our failures and applauds our willing spirits.
Comment at 3:58 removed by editor.
Muff
I rather like becoming Rev Dee by popular proclamation or uprising as opposed to being abused in seminary.
I guess, in some respects, ( in response to Lennon’s song)there will no longer be religion in heaven. It will be a deep relationship with our God and Savior and deep communion with one another. Our joy and worship will not be canned, flowing unimpeded from our very being.
Anonymous
Thanks.
How does giving homosexuals rights to marry or have families threatening to christian freedom if that legislation does not prevent Christiand from marrying and worshipping as they wish? I think our forefathers fought for everyone’s freedom and not just ours as a Christian. It’s also purely subjective to say this nation was founded n Christian principles when more than half the signers of our declaration were Freemasons?
This country could easily become Muslim and practice Shari’a law. That would then threaten our freedom. But gay marriage and relationships do not threaten any freedom we have. It just makes THEM free to live like everyone else. But it makes it hard for us as Christiand because of our beliefs about such lifestyles.
I take that back… Our forefathers fought for some people’s freedoms while enslaving my ancestors considering them subhuman and property.
NLR
Even if Muslims took over the country, the Christian faith would survive, and most likely flourish. The faith does better when challenged.
Dee–
True!! Very true!!
Jerry,
What gays think about Christians has a lot to do with hypocrisy. Philandering pastors preaching against same sex marriage. Greed in the pulpit. Pastors and priests sexually abusing children. Pastors with porno on their screens. And all the railing about same sex relationships but nothing about “players”, those who seek to have hetero sex without any relationship at all and those who have affairs during the week and sit in the pew on sunday and applaud their pastor preaching against same sex marriage.
P.S. I do not want to be around those “Christians” either.
Arce
I so agree with your comment. There are far too many pastors who preach against sexual sin and yet are having affairs or covering up affairs of friends. I have no desire to be around them as well.
NLR:”I take that back… Our forefathers fought for some people’s freedoms while enslaving my ancestors considering them subhuman and property.”
Let’s be fair–not all of them were that way. Jefferson epitomized that attitude and proved it in his conduct towards his slaves (having children with at least one.) But there was also Franklin who not only freed his slaves but became a major abolitionist.
It is a long, lingering legacy, though…
D.C. has historically been one of the last places in the nation (sometimes the very last) re. implementing Civil Rights legislation and Supreme Court decisions.
And… 25 or so years ago, there were people in Fairfax County, VA (a bit west of D.C.) who were not only descendants of people enslaved by Lord Fairfax (from whom the county takes its name), but literally living on the same pieces of land where their ancestors had lived.
I could say more, but this isn’t (imo) a good place to get into it and I don’t want to cause any disruptions! Our blog queens and GuyBTC have had more than enough of those lately.
If you want an interesting take on the founding fathers and how they came up with the Declaration of Independence check out the movie 1776. A bit corny at times (BF doing song and dance in the streets with JA and TJ) but it tries to show a history not taught when I went to school. One where these guys almost didn’t come together and start this country due to all kinds of issues. Slavery being one of them.
The movie is over 30 years old so it may be hard to find. And as to historical accuracy I have no idea.
Anonymous–
In what world is making your slave a concubine/object of pleasure/control “honorable”? Many of my family members display the characteristics of mixed race people who were the results of rape and force and abuse by their masters. History is completely subjective. I am not one to buy into the Sunday night Hallmark ABC version of Jefferson and Sally Hemmings and some hot love story. I won’t get on the topic of slavery here, but your comment is lacking a real awareness of how slaves, particularly black/African women were used to satisfy the sexual appetites of their master, as well as be an object of abuse and control, and many clearly raped. Of course there’s always an exception to the rule. I did not say all. But for the MOST part, and generally, and overall, there wasn’t freedom for everyone. And I do not consider the American idea of “forefather” any father of mine. This is not to discredit those who genuinely fought for civil rights. But I digress… Back tko your regular programming.
NLR
The history of the church and tis response to slavery and racism is dismal, at best. Of course, there were some shining lights, like William Wilberforce, etc. But, for the most part, most whites supported both slavery and racial segregation. There is a similar history with the American Indian.
I remember growing up in Massachusetts thinking that the northerners were morally superior to those in the south because we were on the “right” side in the Civil War. What startled me was learning that northerners were heavily involved in the slave trade, providing slaves to the south! I quickly jumped off my high horse.The older I get, the more and more I admire Martin Luther King Jr for his devotion to nonviolent protest. He was a model of restraint. I am not sure I could have been so passive if it was my children who were being discriminated against. Oh, do we need the grace of Jesus for the church’s part in such a history.
Lynn
I knew i liked you for a reason. The critics panned the movie but I enjoyed it and watched it a couple of times.
Numo
This is one discussion that I am in favor of. the church’s history in this matter is despicable. I think it should prive to some of hte “holier than thou” typpes that we are in much need of the gracious forgiveness of our Lord.
Dee–
You said awhile ago that many of us (Christians) don’t really know church history. I think that is so true. I think you had mentioned a few ancient writings and things that were quite surprising with their content. The funny thing is that before comign to this site, and after leaving my neo-Reformed church, I thought church history began at the Reformation. Hahahahaha!~ And when you look at it from that time period, well… naturally you don’t get all the other crap done in the name of Christ.
I think it’s funny these “church history” theologians and pastors who love to preach about Augustine and Calvin, Luther and so forth. But yet, they never teach in depth about the history of the church in America from other cultural viewpoints other than caucasian American history. It does look like a shining beacon of light from the angle they preach. Hell! They even make the Puritans look good!
Actually modern slavery is a much bigger problem -27 million world wide, 80% who are women and children- than the Atlantic slave trade (12 million). Modern slavery and human trafficking is, according to some statistics, a 30 billion$ business and the fastest growing organized crime. Yet very little is said about this in the church. Maybe because the victims are mostly women and children. We should be outraged.
Re: church history, presentation of accurate info in church:
I think going to weekly church is simply the convenient store version of trying to incorporate God into one’s routine.
“We need milk, & some bread and cheese for the kid’s lunches tomorrow. I’m just going to run down to the corner store, be back in a flash. Yeah, it’s only wonder bread and American cheese, but at least it’s something.”
People are genuinely busy and worn out, and if a weekly church gig of the garden variety is all one is able to do, well, it’s better than nothing. But you will only get the cliff notes version of things — the highlights, which are not unimportant. But a very simplified presentation. And sometimes you’ll get the historically inaccurate version. A very slanted presentation.
I could also compare church to prime time television, and movies shooting for revenue. It all aims for the lowest common denominator in interest and awareness — excellence and intelligence aside. That way, they figure they can get more people, giving them, well, something at least.
A person will never begin the approach to deeper & more accurate understanding without true digging and researching for oneself.
Jefferson did not free any of his children by Sally Hemings, nor did he free her, nor did he acknowledge his children by her as his own.
I had a colleague who was writing an article (years ago) about the way in which Jeffersonian-style democracy presupposes – is built upon – chattel slavery.
As for acknowledging the good guys vs. the bad in this arena, I’ll just mention that there is a statue of “good Episcopalian” Robert E. Lee (mounted on Traveler) standing right outside the nave of the Washington National Cathedral. That always struck me as one of the worst juxtapositions possible, for all kinds of reasons. (Not that I hate Lee, but…) Please note that the Anglican church in VA was full of what some folks from the Caribbean call “the plantocracy.” (State church and all that, during colonial times.)
J-
That is true! In the context of this conversation, my reply was regarding freedoms our forefathers fought for. But in regards to your statement, it is also true that human trafficking and the modern slave trade is huge and ridiculous. Very little is said about it in the church, so little that I dont think there is even a general awareness of how bad and big it is. Luckily, I have some friends who work for IJM, and for me, it has been eyeopening and very sad.
Numo–
You always bring it 😉
NLR – well, I take my position as Abbess very seriously! 😉
You know, I grew up in a mid-Atlantic state, in a rural area where there were almost (but not quite) zero black folks. So moving to the D.C. area, back in the early 80s, was very eye-opening, in terms of how some people want to continue The Old Dominion (includes their “privileges” not being extended to those with darker skin than theirs)… also from becoming aware of how the black community in D.C. had functioned (still functions, in many respects) as a separate society… because Jim Crow laws made it necessary.
The Bible speaks strongly, but rarely, about sexual sin. It speaks often about the sin of greed and of abusive practices against the poor, including dishonest scales, inflated prices, biased courts and decision-makers, allowing hunger, not helping the alien, not taking care of the widows and orphans, etc. About a third of the verses have something to do with social justice.
I am currently reading a book titled “The New Jim Crow” which is about the causes and effects of allegedly color-blind justice in this country, which seems to selectively target blacks and Hispanics. A term for some of this is “disproportionality”. Studies in Texas seem to find disproportionality in the actions of the agencies that deal with child abuse, elder abuse, traffic stops and their results, spousal abuse, parole and probation, etc.
Arce, there are a LOT of Spanish-speaking immigrants in the D.C. metro area; there were many in my old ‘hood in Arlington, VA.
So… I was kind of alluding to them in the “darker skin than theirs” comment above. Spanish-speaking people with brown skin definitely *are* the targets of hatred and discrimination. It happens a LOT with people from the Middle East and N. Africa as well – regardless of their religious beliefs and/or nominal faith (Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Druze…).
Guys when I talk about forefathers I don’t just mean George Washington or Thomas Jefferson….I mean guys like Sgt Paul Rogers (my grandfather WWII vet) and Seaman Walt Drake (my other grandfather WWII). Freedom isn’t free folks and generations before us have ensured we have it. FYI it continues today (my name is Sgt Rogers too). You are right Dee, people often take freedom for granted and yearn for it the most when threatened. I don’t think that means we should court trouble.
Also, for the record, I’m an equal oportunity sin hater. I hate all sin. Especially my own. You’ll notice folks I said I hate sin and not people. Homosexuality is no worse than any other sin, but it’s still a sin. Nuff said.
Swarthy, bearded male that he was, Yeshua would certainly be detained–for some questioning at least–if he wandered into Dulles International today. There’s something about expensive middle-eastern perfumes from the 1st century…
Numo brings it indeed ! Dear Abbes, are you still in the DMV ? How do I get your email add ? I know NLR btw, but she knows me under a different name : )
Yinka – nope, I moved!
You can get my email addy from NLR. Looking forward to some chattin’!
Jerry
Let’s clarify the term homosexuality. Would you say a person who has same sex attraction, and does not act upon it, remaining celibate,is in sin?
NLR – I did not mean in any way to discount or minimize the Atlantic slave trade, my statement was only to contrast it with the current slave trade, and why attention to it is absent in the church. You know, when I am asleep in my cushy bed at night, there are millions of little girls all over the world being used as sex slaves. It makes me sick and breaks my heart at the same time. As for IJM they receive most of the money that I used to give to my church. I got tired of seeing the church spend money on lavish unnecessary church accoutrements. I mean do they really need another video screen?
J Terry
Thank you for your thoughts on sex slavery. I know a woman who is involved through her church in working to eliminate this travesty. I think a post is in order.
Yinka, Numo, NLR
Notify me and I will share your emails if you wish.
Thanks so much! I have NLR’s, and she has mine… Yinka’s the one I’m trying to connect with.
Email sent to you, btw.
also… there is still chattel slavery in this world, and there are still abolitionist societies attempting to get rid of it entirely and get full social standing for enslaved people.
Google “Mauritania” and “slavery,” for example…
Re. Mauritania, this is a very good article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4091579.stm
Yinka
If you wish to correspond with Numo, could you send me an email via the email system for TWW? I will forward it to her and send you hers.
Hi, Dee.
My, what a deep post. You touched on many things. I can tell you spent much time and wrestling, organizing thoughts & getting them out. Thank you for doing this.
Many things triggered thoughts of my own. I’m running out of energy today to get into all of them, but I’ll pursue one of them.
You mention, “So, is it fair that the Bible says a Christian homosexual cannot act on his passions?” You then equate that with the tragedy of love and intimacy lost through disease, death, and betrayal.
I think of my own sexual feelings and impulses, desires and drives — they are as much a part of me as my INFP personality, as much a part of me as my love of music, history, travel, reading, indian food. As much a part of me as the color of my eyes & the blood flowing through my veins. They are me, as much as anything else about my DNA and personality and talents and interests is me.
And then I think of Keith, Justin, and Julie — gay and lesbian people i know who are exceptional human beings — to think that their own natural feelings, impulses, desires and drives (which are who they are just as my own impulses, etc. are who I am) are like a disease, a moral ugliness, a tragedy…
To call the essence of who a person is, the stuff of who they are, their very existence — to call it diseased, ugly, a tragedy… It’s beyond devastating. It’s even more than that.
The person whose wife contracts Lou Gehrig’s disease, the single woman, the mother whose husband took off — they still have their dignity, their essence and the stuff of who they are is considered valid and good.
But not Keith, Justin, and Julie. They are not even allowed that.
Again Dee, I love the wiggle room you and Burleson use when it comes to Christian principles and government. Both of you leave it general and open enough so that it can go either way.
I still gotta say though, the only tangible good Christianity has done in America, is what has come out of the abolitionist movement, the women’s movement, and Dr. King’s civil rights struggle.
Thanks again for allowing an old lefty and borderline heretic like me comment here. I am banned from most other places. Long live TWW!
Elastigirl: Brava!!!
Yinka–
I dont know who you are. You’ll have to tell me the name I know you under if you want me to give Numo your email.
Jerry–
Thanks for the explanation. I like how you chose to give your money to IJM rather than your local church. Before now, I wouldn’t have considered giving my money to an outside organizatino first. You know: tradition and loyalty. But the more I have thought about it, I have often wondered why we believe we must give to our churches first, or give them the most. Certainly, I believe that we should assist with the expenses of the church. We want lights and seats and running water, cleanliness and toilets. We also want our pastors to at least have their general needs met, but sometimes, I really think they need to get jobs, unless one is pastoring and caring for the flock full time, i.e. hospita visits, caring for the widows, the fatherless, the single moms, etc… But I like your thinking and if I were to join a church, I would do what you’re doing, rather than giving my local congregation a certain percentage of my income.
Funny thing is, I never saw a missions focus on issues like chattle slavery and human trafficking in my nice cushy church on the Hill. They always wnat to focus on going to Asia and spreading the gospel there. There’s never any focus on getting hands dirty and helping people with immediate needs with all that money.
Muff
I get it. Your comments and thoughts are understandable and hold merit. Why you banned from other sites is a mystery to me. Old leftys and borderline heretics often ask the best questions and challenge the comfortable. Long live the Muff!
Elastigirl
Truly I understand what you are saying. I find this very difficult but I also have to contend with what I read in Scripture. Believe it or not, my thoughts on this issue are rejected by a large number of Christians who believe I am compromising even more rigid standards. Sometimes, I find that I am getting warmer is when all sides roundly condemn my approach for different reasons. I am still in process and will be until the day I die on many issues.
I would like to address this comment “The person whose wife contracts Lou Gehrig’s disease, the single woman, the mother whose husband took off — they still have their dignity, their essence and the stuff of who they are is considered valid and good.”
As you know, I was a nurse. Did you know that many people with chronic disease feel they have been rejected and do not have dignity because of the system? So many people get tired of dealing with those who have chronic conditions, making the sick feel rather worthless and unloved. I have watched spouses carry on affairs right under the noses of the chronically ill. I watched one lady, whose husband didn’t take the time to perceive her understanding, bring his “friend” up to the floor of her long term care facility, cry as he turned around to leave after his perfunctory visit.
Ask women whose husbands deserted them how they are treated by the church. They are often ignore and are made irrelevant because many churches subtly convey the message that maybe if the wife had been more submissive…hadn’t married a jerk and had bad judgment… she should get over it… she really shouldn’t be invited to family functions…
People, in general, ignore the chronically ill, and the lost and letdown. We mouth dignity but act very, very differently.
Deb/Dee/Numo thanks….
Got in touch with NLR, she’s making the intros…
I lied. I know Yinka. Period. LOL
Dee to answer your question: I sure hope not….I, like most people I think, have all kinds of bad thoughts/wants/desires that pop unbidden into my brain. Thankfully I choose not to act on many of them but I still fall on occasion. Just because I thought about them doesn’t mean I’m guilty of them; BUT I do think there is such a thing as “sins of the mind” for lack of a better term. For example if I choose to lust after something or turn green with envy over something someone else has or covet….those are sins I committ in my head. I may not physically act on these things but I’m guilty of the sin. I don’t have to physically committ a carnal act to be guilty of lust. So given the homosexual in your example, it depends on far he/she carries that attraction in their head as well as whether they act on it physically, same as it is for a hetrosexual like me.
NLR regarding your last post….I think you may have my comments confused with someone elses.
Jerry
Let me push you a bit on your good answer. How about the alcoholic, who, after years after struggle becomes sober. Yet, he still desires that drink every day and fights the urge and prays for strength. Is he in sin as he contends with these feelings?
Ha!~ It was J. Terry, not Jerry. Funny
Hi, Dee.
While your approach is not one I’m taking, know that I’m not condemning — & I have no doubts about your kindness and sincere compassion where this topic is concerned. I’m venting the exquisite frustration I feel with the tension between reality and the words as they appear in the bible.
Yes, I don’t doubt the rejection experienced by people with chronic illness, women whose husbands desert them, and women with failed marriages (for whatever reason), and the resulting assault to their dignity. This cruelty & double standard has to be one of the uglier sides to human nature. It’s stinkin’ disappointing that many christians don’t rise above it.
I still feel it’s not quite a fair comparison, though. While illness & being abandoned by one’s mate, in turn prompting more rejection from peers is a horrible blow to one’s dignity, it’s not quite the same as being given the message explicitly or implicitly that one’s self (not their body or mind, but who they are as a human being) is diseased.
The only option is to become someone else (to please God’s people and, it would seem, God himself).
Elastigirl & Dee,
I’ve been following this thread and hope you don’t mind if I jump in.
Easlastigirl you say –
“… (not their body or mind, but who they are as a human being) is diseased.”
I would have to say, yes, they are diseased and so am I and so are you and so are the physically sick and the abandoned women. We ALL live in a fallen world that is not as God intended it to be – we are all diseased. However, I don’t believe that homosexuals are somehow more fallen than anyone else. They need the same savior that I needed. And after I was saved I did become someone else and I am still becoming someone else. I am in a process of sanctification. Thankfully, because of Jesus life, death and resurrection, when I was saved God no longer looked at me and saw a sinner. He looked at me and saw Christ’s blood. He has adopted me into the body of Christ and now calls me a saint and I can call him my Father. I am someone else. The only thing that will ever “please God” is what Jesus did on our behalf.
It’s just that, now, I desire to please my Father because of the grace He bestowed to me through Christ. I want to be more like Christ. So, I ask myself, “How would Jesus interact with homosexuals?” How did he interact with prostitutes, tax collectors, adulterers, sinners?” He treated them the same way he treated me – with grace. For that matter, the folks He seemed to get the most upset with were the pharisees and self-righteous leaders of his day – and we have plenty of that going on these days.
Dee good discussion on the nature of sin. To my way of tinking sin are those things/thoughts/actions we have that come between us and God. Some are clearcut and the same for everyone and some are actions that are personnal and unique to us as individuals. Let me illustrate. One of my hobbies is music. I love playing the instruments I play, I’m a decent singer and God has blessed me with a modest talent. I try to use that talent by playing and singing at church on a regular basis BUT I’ve noticed over the years that due to my character flaws I am highly suseptable to the sin of pride when it comes to my musical talents. So much so that for years I actually had to quit. Even now that I’m playing again I still have to be on guard and still struggle. So, for me, playing in church might actually be sinful(wierd huh)because vainity and pride comes between me and God.
So back to your recovering alcoholic…obviously giving into his/her addiction is a bad thing but generally that daily struggle you speak of rarely comes between us and God. I’ve had some experience with addiction. (In my case smoking which is a far cry from alcoholism but close enough that you get the tiniest inkling of what these people go through to beat their addictions)In fact it’s my experience that those daily struggles often bring us closer to Him. Especially if He is the one we lean on to make it through.
Elastigirl: I dunno about having a chronic illness being that different… people can and often DO treat those with chronic illnesses as if they *are* diseased, both in and out of church.
and then there’s the tendency to slam people with “It’s all your fault,” because you didn’t do something (abide by certain rules), etc.). Meanwhile, there is pretty much nothing that the person with the chronic illness can do to change the fact that they have a chronic illness – and some people DO see that as a failure of character, a moral failure – however you want to put it.
I am *not* saying it’s the same as being LGBTQ, but I am saying it can be damned hard. (I can say this because i have some chronic illnesses and got hounded by a number of people at That Church – the one that kicked me out because they believed I lied in order to get SSA disability benefits.)
Also, re. chronic illness being treated as a stigma, ask anyone who’s bipolar, has dealt with anxiety disorder, severe depression, OCD, etc. etc. etc.
Things are better than they used to be, but still not as good as they need to be, in regard to compassion, education *and* effective treatment.
Numo
They kicked you out???? Oh good night, no!! They refused to believe you? Listen, been there myself. I was a member of a church which believed a pastor over a group of members who had years of dedication to the faith. Ah, well, God knows the truth and those who judged wrongly will have to face it one day. And that is why I believe that there must be ultimate justice. All will be made known.
Dee – yes, they did. The “pastor” thought I had lied deliberately.
Ultimately, I was kicked out for supposedly lying about something I didn’t even do. (The thing is, I look healthy, like a lot of other folks with “invisible” chronic health issues… so that stacked the deck against me.)
And if that doesn’t make sense, well… it shouldn’t!
Didn’t we talk about this a while back?
Numo
Yes, but I am chronically absent minded. Many people with chronic illnesses may look well but unless the pastor is your doctor and knows the diagnosis, he shouldn’t be in the business of making medical judgments. But, then again, there are some pastors who believe they can be judge and jury of many things and yet have zero training. Run from those churches. He probably did you a favor.
Jerry
That is why I wanted to clarify what you are saying. Some people say that a person who struggles with homosexual feelings is sinful for merely feeling that way. I know many folks in this situation who are celibate and honor God in their lives.
As for your playing, rejoice in the fact that God has given you His grace. We all will struggle with pride and vanity til the day we die and, for most, we will not overcome it. That is why Jesus had to come. You are forgiven. Use your talents and enjoy them and don’t be too hard on yourself.
Its the guys like Mahaney that worry me. To me, he exemplifies the epitome of pride and he writes books on humility. How strange is that?
Bridget2
I loved how you said it. Thank you.
“Also, re. chronic illness being treated as a stigma, ask anyone who’s bipolar,”
It also cuts the other way. When you have people with such conditions who believe it must be them loosing the battle with the devil and/or sin.
My mother was one of these. My brothers and I have come to the conclusion that she is bi-polar. She’s now in her 70s and only now beginning to accept that there might just possibly almost kind of be a medical issue here.
Made for a strang ride growing up.
“In Christ, there is nothing I can do that would make You love me more, and nothing I have done makes You love me less.”
J. D. Greear
Lynn
Great comment. I know some people who believed that if they just “trusted God” enough, their daughter would have been healed from cancer. She died. Can you imagine what that does to them. It was their fault-they didn’t trust hard enough, they had doubts, etc???
I hope your mother will allow her family to get her to take meds. She would feel so much better. Try some reverse psychology. Tell her that the devil is trying to prevent her from taking the medicine.
bridget2,
I appreciate your reply. I want to respond as best I can, out of respect for the the thought you put into yours.
******
RE: “…yes, they are diseased and so am I and so are you …We ALL live in a fallen world that is not as God intended it to be – we are all diseased.”
I agree. This is a spiritual truth. While your statement has an equalizing effect, accurately putting all humanity on the same spiritual plane, it doesn’t take into account the following: it’s just not the reality of living life. Especially in what is logically the ultimate center of spiritual truth, God’s church.
People with same-sex attraction are NOT treated as equals in God’s church — perhaps theoretically they are, and perhaps in the minds of hetero christians they are. But this is not the reality.
I think of a gay man I know. While he never talks about it, it is understood that he is. I recall being at a formal event which he also attended. He did not make his hand available to shake anyone’s hand, & was more subdued than normal. I understood that it had become simply too painful — he was accustomed to people not wanting to shake his hand, avoiding him in such situations (no doubt in other situations, as well), as if they would be contaminated by him. While everyone else was free to be themselves and interact and connect with their fellow human beings, he was not.
So, while your statement is beyond argument a spiritual truth, it is at the same time overspiritualizing and oversimplifying the complexities of living life (as I see it).
******
RE: “However, I don’t believe that homosexuals are somehow more fallen than anyone else. They need the same savior that I needed.”
Yes, it is true, and I love your perspective. You strike me as someone who would do her darnedest to live out her perspective in embracing all people equally. As I see it, however, you are much in the minority.
******
RE: “And after I was saved I did become someone else and I am still becoming someone else. I am in a process of sanctification…. Thankfully, because of Jesus life, death and resurrection, when I was saved God no longer looked at me and saw a sinner. He looked at me and saw Christ’s blood. He has adopted me into the body of Christ and now calls me a saint and I can call him my Father. I am someone else.”
Yes, this, too, is a spiritual truth. But, again, I see it as an overspiritualization and oversimplification of the complexities of actually living life.
I, too, have experienced powerful change that was akin to having the lights suddenly flicked on in the midst of being in a dark room. And the continual outworkings of it, albeit through hills and valleys. Surely people of same-sex attraction who know God also experience powerful change. However, this is not what I’m talking about.
Because of phobias, prejudice, subtle messages unconsiously communicated, people of same-sex attraction know they must keep that part of themselves deeply hidden at risk of social ostracization. They must pretend they are someone else.
Should they feel more able to honestly share that part of who they are in an environment of trust (whether or not that “trust” pans out as being warranted), they open themselves up to the only possible eventuality: become either a-sexual or heterosexual. They have forever closed the door on who they really are, and the sheer possibility of true intimacy in the deepest sense. They must become someone else. And it is because of rejection of who they are.
Hi, Numo.
I don’t mean to minimize the rejection and misunderstanding people with chronic illness experience. It just really sucks. I understand full well — if i had a quarter for every time someone said to me with a peppy, happy smile “the joy of the lord is your strength” “or come on, be happy!”, or “Rejoice!” while in the years of deep depression, I would have been a millionaire. But still deeply depressed, mingled with new shades of hopelessness and emphasized loneliness.
“People with same-sex attraction are NOT treated as equals in God’s church”
They are somewhat. About the same as those with a mental illness or those who can’t find a job.
Lynn —
So very disappointing, in ridiculous proportion to what God’s church purports itself to be, advertised with crosses, doves, and the word love splashed around everywhere.
Elastigirl,
Thanks for responding. I am enjoying and learning much from our conversation so I hope you don’t mind if I continue it for a bit longer.
I’m sorry I came across as overspiritualizing and oversimplifying. That wasn’t my intent. I totally agree with you about homosexuals and people with same-sex attraction being treated badly “in reality” by Christians. The commandment “love thy neighbor as yourself” doesn’t seem to be applied here. I also agree that the Church, where they should find grace, “in reality” is a place they usally don’t find it. It is a sad reality that I would like to see changed. But, if we (Christians) don’t talk about it and think about it and pray about it, it might never change – ugh! Not a pleasant thought. I also don’t know that we should make light of spiritual truths because we don’t see them in reality? We might never experience complete unity of spiritual truth “in realilty” until we are with Christ or He returns?
I don’t know about you, but I often have what I call “head knowledge” about a spiritual truth, but that doesn’t mean that I have “heart knowledge” of that same truth. Many christians have oodles of spiritual knowledge and have been instructed to the nth degree. Speaking for myself, though, I don’t always find that the scriptures have seeped into my very being. In my growing in Godliness, I find myself praying for my heart to be changed to be more like Christ. Many times I find that this happens when I go through challenges and heartache, and I’m crying out to God to show me what I need and to help me with that need. Many times it has to do with loving people the way God wants me to love them (not the way “I think” they should be loved). This is when I find the spiritual truths seeping into my heart – at last! I must confess, I am not a person with great natural empathy (could be many reasons for this, which don’t really matter because I know what God has asked me to do 🙂 I’m still putting off the old self and putting on the new. (I can’t do it by mere will power alone either – though I try.) Also, we, Christians, are all at a different place of putting off and putting on. You seem like you have a lot of empathy – maybe that is an area you don’t struggle in. I’ve known for a long time that this is an area I need God’s help to change in. I won’t go into what has happened in my life since I have seen this lack and started praying about it. That could be a book in itself!
I do wonder what you mean in your last paragraph when you say-
“they open themselves up to the only possible eventuality: become either a-sexual or heterosexual (this sounds very sad and final, I know it would be hard, but can God make this fulfilling for them, or is their sexuality all that exists about them?) They have forever closed the door on who they really are (is this who they really are or does God want to show them who they are?), and the sheer possibility of true intimacy in the deepest sense (does true intimacy in the “deepest sense” come from another human being?) They must become someone else (they might have to stop doing certain things with their body, but do they need to become someone else?). And it is because of rejection of who they are (humans, in their sinfulness, may reject them but is God rejecting them?)”
God was able to raise Christ from the dead – is He able to redeem, sustain, and fulfill a homosexual?
Along with you, I am grappling with these thoughts and wanting to love as Christ loved.
Bridget
Hi, bridget2.
Thanks for replying. I do have thoughts in response.
…sigh, but i’m having getting them out. I’m really getting down into the nitty gritty of the things that have been deeply troubled me for years that I have never articulated.
Ugh it’s arduous. It’s like finally, after avoiding it for so long, opening up a storage unit that has been packed with things for years, & trying to organize it all into separate categories.
This is great, though. This is the most honest thing I’ve done in years.
Please stay tuned (??).
Elastigirl –
Staying tuned 🙂 and it is arduous and complex, like you stated before. And God is the Good Shepherd.
This has been a wonderful comment thread so far…!
Elastigirl, my apologies for having forgotten about the aftermath of your accident. The man who avoids contact for fear of rebuffs… I wish I knew what to say to that.
Keep unpacking – hopefully, we can all help you with the sorting, if you need us.
@NLR:
I think you may have misunderstood my post. When I said that “Jefferson epitomized that attitude” I meant that he was a prime example of the hypocrisy of presumably fighting for liberty while enslaving and taking sexual advantage of his fellow people. While that is true of Jefferson, not >every< founder was that way–Franklin being the best example in his becoming a major abolitionist.
Elastigirl
Thank you for all of your thoughts. I am challenged as I read what you have to say.
Hi, bridget2.
(sound of breathing in through clenched teeth)… here goes. Warning – it’s long (but you can see that). I’m dividing it up into at least 2 comments. Please don’t be scared away by the length. There was more in my mental storage unit than I expected. And I haven’t organized it all very efficiently. There’s still more to unpack, actually.
bridget2, I can tell you’re a quality person. With your initial comment in our conversation, I felt that what you were saying came across as overspiritualizing and oversimplifying – but I can tell that you are deeper and, well, just better than that. I think I made you the scapegoat for all the people who have tossed spiritualisms around as a convenient way to respond to questions and problems that are trickier than they care to work through, and messier than they want to deal with. I am sorry for that.
Concerning your recent substantial comment, I’ll respond to what triggered some thoughts:
******
RE: “But, if we (Christians) don’t talk about it and think about it and pray about it, it might never change – ugh! Not a pleasant thought.“
I agree. I’ve had these quandries for a long time, and have put them way in the back of my mind – unfortunately, too busy with church busy-ness (& life busy-ness) to face them and seek to articulate them. I consider that as very dishonest, and I’m disappointed in myself.
******
RE: “I also don’t know that we should make light of spiritual truths because we don’t see them in reality? We might never experience complete unity of spiritual truth “in realilty” until we are with Christ or He returns?”
It would be wrong to make light of spiritual truths. That is something I never want to do. It may have sounded like I was, but that wasn’t my intent. This is the deal: for the longest time my church experience has been so heavy on the lofty, theologically conceptual that so many things about life here & now were left completely untouched, unaddressed. The practical things. The real things. Real, as in the fact that people are hungry, people are cold, people can’t see a doctor or dentist when their bodies are malfunctioning, people are unemployed and the life they were trying for is unravelling, people are lonely. Real things, as in women are discriminated against in God’s church (let’s call it what it is and not “sanctify” it with christianese language). Real things, as in rejecting people of same-sex attraction (let’s call THIS what it is and leave off the “hate the sin, but love the sinner” bit (which more often than not is one of the most dishonest, self-deluded things a person could ever say in this context).
I love spiritual truths, and think many of them are so exciting and intriguing. But all too often these spiritual truths are tossed out like pocket change to a lonely, struggling Vietnam vet – which makes us feel like we’re at least doing “something” toward this unfortunate situation, but we’re obviously not going to make the time or effort to grapple with the reality of it to understand it and make things better. These spiritual truths are often spoken out as if in a vacuum, as if that is all that needs to be said. But when they land they are juxtaposed alongside the realities of living life on planet earth. They are anything but neat and tidy, anything but satisfactory and “enough” in and of themselves.
Actually, because I’ve never really heard honest discourse about how christians treat people of same-sex attraction (such as we are having now) in a christian setting, I suspect that most “pastors” are more than happy to keep this issue under wraps, and when asked about it to simply throw a coin into the hat, so to speak, to deal with it in the form of bible boilerplate, in the quickest and tidiest of fashion. I suspect that this is the case, because to face this issue and see it through will open up more questions about what biblical inerrancy means & methods of interpretation & semantics than most pastors are qualified to truly handle well, without giving pat answers. It is certainly a sensitive subject, a volatile subject. Granted, it is not easy to discuss. But since people in church are mostly married or appear to be headed in that direction, perhaps many pastors and christians say to themselves, “I really don’t have to deal with this, do I? And the single people, they all appear to be straight so I’m sure they are – afterall, that’s what is means to be a christian.” And they do that thing that little kids do – if I close my eyes and hide under the covers, the scary thing doesn’t exist, right?
It is understandable that giving this subject fair treatment will open up a can of worms that many pastors / christians do not want to have to deal with.
But, if we’re honest, we wrestle, grapple, and face the messy and hard questions. The SCARY, threatening questions. And as you said, we might never experience spiritual truth in reality until the great hereafter with God himself. But we keep pursuing.
******
(Hi, bridget2, continued)
You wondered what I meant in my last paragraph:
RE: “they open themselves up to the only possible eventuality: become either a-sexual or heterosexual (this sounds very sad and final, I know it would be hard, but can God make this fulfilling for them, or is their sexuality all that exists about them?)“
–I just try to imagine if it were me. This incomparably strong & powerful drive, the longing, the excitement of having a crush, the thrill of it being mutual, the magic of falling in love, the excitement of pursuing a relationship (not always easy, of course). The whole thing is just the most instinctive, natural, real, & powerful thing I’ve ever experienced. It’s hard to believe this is not the case with most people. What if this most instinctive, real, & powerful thing was deemed all wrong, unacceptable, even in an ultimate sense with God. What if I was required to deny it, to give it all up, and the only options left to me are to close the door on intimacy forever, or to make this incomprehensible switch & force myself to pursue and engage in intimacy with someone in a way I just cannot fathom. It’s not that I don’t think the person is attractive or likeable, it’s just…. having to do something that is so absolutely contrary to what feels right in every fiber of my being. It feels so absolutely wrong in every fiber of my being. And then I start to think to myself, “I’m so alone, I want to share my life with someone, & I have this darn libido – well, “maybe” I could consider a “switch”. Yeah, so-&-so is nice-looking, we seem to have some things in common, I enjoy our conversation… I don’t know if I can do this, but maybe in time I could bite the bullet and just see about it…… But…. how in the world could this be remotely fair to so-&-so?………… & what kind of intimacy is that??”
I can hear someone now, saying, “Well, we can’t run our life by feelings, can we. Afterall, faith is not a feeling.” And to that I would say, “Then YOU try it.”
Or, what about this scenario: I have found my soulmate, & together we’ve carved out and forged a life together, a bond born of joy and pain, conflict and sweet reconciliation, my faithful companion with whom I have so much fun living my life. What if I found out that the very fact of our relationship was wrong, incorrect, unacceptable. And my only option was to terminate it. Give it up. Consider it like a deadly habit I can never allow myself to be near again…… My soul mate, the love of my life….
And I can hear someone now, saying, “Well, God never said it would be easy.” And to that I would say, “Then YOU try it!”
******
RE: “They have forever closed the door on who they really are (is this who they really are or does God want to show them who they are?)”
–Is the left-handed person really left-handed? Or does God want to show them that they are truly right-handed, and force the use of the right hand only. It is the correct way after all, and ultimately will be so much better for the person. Because this is how they were meant to be. And sure, this denial of the left hand and adopting of the right hand will be difficult. But it is through these difficulties that God will show them who they really are and it will be so marvelous a thing that the psychological issues that resulted from this switch won’t seem all that important.
******
RE: “They have forever closed the door on who they really are and the sheer possibility of true intimacy in the deepest sense (does true intimacy in the “deepest sense” come from another human being?)“
–I’m sure it’s just pale shades of true intimate connection with God. But that kind of connection with God, if it is even possible this side of heaven, is unique and not the norm for most people. I see being in love, erotic love, faithful love and the intimacy it all leads to as stemming from of the complete and perfect intimacy we were designed to have with God (& one day will). But I consider the fact that we can have such pleasure in physical and emotional intimacy on the horizontal human plane to be a fabulous gift from God. Yes, true intimacy in the deepest sense is in relation to God. But true and deep intimacy in love on the human plane is a wonder to be treasured.
******
RE: “They must become someone else (they might have to stop doing certain things with their body, but do they need to become someone else?)”
–As I described previously, I see sexual orientation as part of the stuff of a human being. As much a part of who a person is as their personality, their talents, their handwritten autograph. I only say this because I know how much a part of me it is. In considering my life as a whole, I can’t think of a more basic, integral & powerful force in me (except maybe the drive to survive and to protect my children and loved ones from harm and danger). I know this, because of how unnatural & odd an opposite sexual orientation feels to me compared with how utterly natural my own sexual orietnation feels. I venture to guess that this is the case with most people, of course including people of same-sex attraction. To have to deny such a basic, integral part of oneself and switch to something so foreign (in the realm of intimacy), to me, must be like having to close down who you are and put on someone else.
******
RE: “And it is because of rejection of who they are (humans, in their sinfulness, may reject them but is God rejecting them?)”
–If I knew that what is so natural & instinctive to me – as natural & beautiful as my love of and talent for music is to me – ….if I knew that what is as natural and instinctive to me as my sex drive and who I feel it for (and the beauty & honor of a love commitment that comes out of it) was hated by God… oh… it’s hard to imagine something as painful as that. I would know that God created us all, formed our inward parts & we are fearfully wonderfully made, and it was good, it was very good – except it turns out that God actually hates how he made me. He created me, fashioned me — in a despicable way… on purpose!? And I thought rejection of my peers was heart-breaking.
******
RE: “God was able to raise Christ from the dead – is He able to redeem, sustain, and fulfill a homosexual?”
–Nothing is too difficult for God. But again, I offer the analogy of forcing a left-handed person to use the righ-hand exclusively. On the grounds that it is the only correct, right, and appropriate way. I have become aware of too many people who have only experienced attraction to their same sex, from their very earliest memory of noticing people and having crushes. They have come from good childhoods, good homes, good parents, heathy families, even on-fire christian homes. And they, too, are on-fire christians. I have become aware of enough of these kinds of people to really, truly, make me question the notion that all human beings are created & meant to be hetero – therefore anything else is wrong.
Elastigirl –
Pondering many thoughts 🙂 Is life fair??? Will be back.
Dee-
Thanks for letting us “reason together” here. If we need to move on let us know.
Hello Elastigirl –
Hope all is well with you today.
BBBiiiggg sssiiiggghhh . . . .I agree with you. It is probably easier for most all of us to just slide on by the whole homosexual/same-sex attraction issues never giving them a second thought, other than what we read in scripture, and then just quote scriptures at people. I’m thinking this attitude and response is not helpful in the least to people in this place. I’m sure that there are many reasons people choose that lifstyle (I have seen some horrible things done to children, that could cause them to grow up hating the opposite gender), or some have that tendancy from birth.
So, if this tendancy is from birth, and a person feels compelled and attracked to the same sex from the beginning, how do we reconcile that with what we see in scripture? We could discount certain scripture to accommodate our own beliefs; we could say that scripture must be fallible (but does that mean God is fallible?); we could study and find that translators twisted scripture, though there are evidences in the Old and New Testament that indicate this behavior is not pleasing to God.
Thinking about people having these feelings from birth and reconciling that “God made them that way from birth – so maybe it’s acceptable,” I would also have to take into account all the other brokenness that people come into this world with; every disease, handicap, disfigurement, and what about people who are attracked to children (pedophiles) – they might say (I don’t know any personally) they have had these urges from birth. We wonder, as Dee stated in this post, why do these things have to be? Again, the only answer I have is that it is the broken/fallen state of this world. And every part of us is infected with the fall (in our DNA?). Taking all this into account, I don’t know if we can set same-sex attraction appart and say that those who feel this way are different then EVERYONE else born sick and broken in some other way.
Please understand, I AM NOT discounting that setting aside the same-sex attraction part of their being could cause great suffering. I can imagine that it would be extremely difficult. But I also have to think of a person like Joni Erickson Tada (sp) who was paralyzed from the neck down in her late teens. Can she have her sexual desires fulfilled? Should she just stop living and give up if she can’t have them fulfilled? Should she turn from God? You may know of her, she has a tremendous ministry to the handicapped and, actually to all of us. She is a testimony to what God can do in someones life. Now, in the last few years, she has also been diagnosed with breast cancer – WHAT God? Aren’t you asking too much of her? I also think of the story of Job – WHAT God? Did God ask too much of Job?
The longer I live the more I realize that most all of us suffer in some way at some time in our lives; for example, Dee watching her daughter, Dee’s daughter, me watching my son turn from God (was being born with a cleft lip a sign to him that God somehow didn’t love him like he loved others?), people born deformed, people disfigured from fire and accidents, alcoholics. Scripture tells us that we will suffer because of the state of this world as well as sometimes because of our own choices. It comes in various ways, and at different times to all of us.
Is same sex-attraction something that God would ask a person to give up and trust Him with this part of their life? Have you given something up that you truely desired, knowing that you needed to trust God in that area? Does God have the right to ask that of His creation? Will God fulfill us even more when we come to a place of wanting Him more than anything this life can give us? (Job) Were we meant for this world?
I think these are hard questions that won’t always have an answer this side of heaven? Do I have a right to an answer this side of heaven? (I often think I do – eek.)
bridget2 – I think a lot hinges on how people interpret the few passages in Scripture that actually mention homosexual sex. (fwiw, the idea of “homosexuals” and “heterosexuals” is quite new – dating to the mid-19th c. Before that, strict category labels didn’t exist.)
Is that passage in Romans 2 part of something bigger, for example? (by which I mean that Paul was using that example to drive home some points he had set up a bit earlier – and then adding to that by piling up example of awfulness, til he gets to *the* point he wanted to make.)
also… by no means do I think I have *the* answers on this topic; I am not comfortable with a lot of the interpretations of the Scriptures (pro and con) out there, from *any* side, since I think people overreach at times in order to make their respective points.
Hi Numo-
I think the interpretation of the few scriptures is all important. I would just add that it is not just the few scriptures that should be evaluated, but the entire body of scripture all the way back to creation and man and woman’s purposes in creation (biologically speaking). It’s always good to look at the big picture and not just focus on specific scripture as you mentioned. I have not studied in-depth in this area so I’m by no means an expert either. Speaking of experts, I don’t think those who we (or they) consider great experts are, necessarily, so! Unless, of course, they have a direct line, unencumbered by sin, to God himself.
BTW, Numo, a while back you mentioned that you would forward some, information (as in books, articles, writings?) on Job. Maybe you posted something and I missed it. If you did happen to find the info, could you forward to me. I’m still interested 🙂 Thanks much!
Hi, bridget2–
i intend to respond — still unwinding from “the big unpack”.
Elastigirl –
Take your time. I check in here a few times a day. Thx for letting me know though. I thought I might have unintentionally “packed you back up.”
Bridget 2 – re. Job, basically all I was able to find via the internet is pretty much what I said back then, regarding the “satan” of Job being viewed not as the devil, but as a member of the heavenly court who was taking the position (so to speak) of devil’s advocate… in other words, like an attorney for the prosecution vs. an attorney for the defense.
Christianity has greatly elaborated on the idea of an adversary… perhaps not always in a healthy manner. Judaism is different in this, though I feel I haven’t even begun to scratch the surface in my reading and study (re. comparative religion).
Thanks Numo!
De nada, Bridget2!
Hi, bridget2,
I’ll try to respond. I’m sort of shell-shocked from drama of all kinds with my young kids tonight, but I’ve wanted to respond for some days now. So, let’s see what burblings I can manage:
RE: “So, if this tendancy is from birth, and a person feels compelled and attracked to the same sex from the beginning, how do we reconcile that with what we see in scripture? We could discount certain scripture to accommodate our own beliefs;”
–I’m really questioning what inerrant, infallible, and inspired mean, and wondering where these notions came from. I think God had something to do with the writers as they wrote. But to extend that same assumption of divine involvement (or the same level of divine involvement) to all the copiers of the copies of the copies of the copies of the copies of the original manuscripts, as well as to the group(s)of men who decided what qualified as “inspired” so as to be included in the eventual “bible”… i dunno, it seems to me like it’s more of a leap of faith than would enter the minds of most christians. I don’t think most christians even bother to wonder and question the basis for justifying such a leap. I don’t mean to sound judgemental or condescending — afterall, i never bothered to ask these questions myself until recently. Too preoccupied with “doing church”, practically and politically, to get off the treadmill and say “actually… i don’t know if I’m really buying into all this afterall.”
But these things are too enormous for me to get any further on at the moment. True study of this/these topics seems to require that both an available mind and available time coincide. I don’t see that happening any time soon with mommy-brain and mommy-life. (yeah, i’m frustrated)
Re: “we could say that scripture must be fallible (but does that mean God is fallible?);
–Some portions of scripture are fallible, on certain levels. God isn’t fallible.
Re: “…we could study and find that translators twisted scripture, though there are evidences in the Old and New Testament that indicate this behavior is not pleasing to God.”
–I’m sure it’s very unpleasing to God, if and when it has happened. But the fact remains that all of the bible that’s in our hands is an interpretation, based on the worldviews and belief systems that inform the choices of those individuals who are translating, etc. I think most have done an honest job of it, however. But it’s many generations of copy away from the original manuscripts (which no one has), to which interpretive filters have been applied.
RE: “Thinking about people having these feelings from birth and reconciling that “God made them that way from birth – so maybe it’s acceptable,” I would also have to take into account all the other brokenness that people come into this world with; every disease, handicap, disfigurement, and what about people who are attracked to children (pedophiles)…”
–To equate same-sex attraction (which can blossom into faithful love and an honorable commitment in the same way that opposite-sex attraction can) with disease, anti-social personality disorder, and predatory tendencies is beyond devastating. Although I know it is not your intention to devastate anyone.
my brain is running out… of………..gas…….
Elastigirl
I so appreciate your thoughtful comments and I can understand your frustration. When I found out that the woman caught in adultery was not in the original text, it shook me to my core which is precisely what God had in mind. It took me on a journey that brought me right back to the faith. Much of that peace came with an understanding that the canon has been remarkably preserved throughout the ages. If you are interested in a classic book, unfortunately very dry, The History of the Canon by FF Bruce is very helpful.
We have thousands of ancient documents that show us that today’s Bible is remarkably coherent and consistent. Let me play devil’s advocate here. I have an MBA. One lesson I learned in school, early on, is that it is important to know the rules of the game for any organization. Now, many of the rules are written in “procedure manuals.” However, some are not and you must learn those as well like “Occasionally bring donuts and cookies to Susie in the director’s office and she will make sure your phone calls get through.” If you don’t understand this about Susie, then you may have broken communications with the director. This is not fair but it is a fact.
Here is the problem with a Bible which is totally fallible, wrong and mistaken. We believe that it is a document of the rules of the game for Christians (amongst other things such as our history, Gods character etc.) If God did not preserve His Book in a form that is understandable throughout the years and cultures, then how do we know what is true and what is not? In other words, God then plays a game of unwritten rules, just like Susie and the coffee). In fact, is this were true, He could be accused of being unfair and capricious.
I believe that God has preserved His word so that we have a good understanding of the rules of the game.The Bible is that manual of the rules of the game. I have a great deal of empathy for those who are homosexual in orientation. I have an uncle and a friend who are. I also believe that some people may be born with this tendency, just like people are born with genetic mutations that cause much pain and suffering. I see this in some of the people I read to each week in a facility for those profoundly handicapped. I do not expect those who are outside of the faith to understand the Bible in this area. In fact, I think it might be darned near impossible.
But, I cannot get around the clear history of the Scripture when it comes to this issue. It begins in the Garden in which the woman was made to be a companion to man, not another man. God could have created another man for Adam. Heck, he could have gotten around this whole issue and just made a bunch of guys as buddies and skipped the whole sex thing altogether but He did not.
I have just been told of a book called Slaves, Women and Homosexuals in which the author is opposed to slavery, is egalitarian, but continues to say that the practice of homosexuality is a sin. I hope to read it in the coming months.
Finally, don’t worry about your mommy brain. When my kids were small and my daughter was sick, I used to think and think and think and came up with all sorts of thoughts. I often wondered what I was going to do with all of them . Most of my friends eyes would glaze over when I would talk about these thoughts.So, I started teaching Sunday school for adults and eventually those thoughts and technology merged and here I am. Work it through. Who knows what’s in your future!!
Just know this. I think it is good that your are working this through. So many people pew sit and never, ever give this stuff a second thought.
Thanks, Dee, very much for your gracious comment, & for taking the time to put so much thought into it. I really, really appreciate it.
I’m encouraged to hear of your own “mommy brain” and how you made yourself useful as a means to solve your problem (gain knowledge and undertanding through teaching Sun. school). Very smart of you.
And I’m very glad I’m working through these longtime frustrations. In spite of it all, God is more real to me than ever. My prayer time with Moms In Touch just blows me away — here I’ve been dissin’ God for at least 5 years, and (having come into a clearing) now that I’m talking to him again, he just shows up like never before. It’s like he’s just tickled pink and more than delighted and gushing all over me with the 5-years’-worth of the hugs and kisses that weren’t, all at once.
I’ll keep that very dry book, The History of the Canon by FF Bruce, in mind.
******
Some thoughts in response to your thoughts:
Re: “Here is the problem with a Bible which is totally fallible, wrong and mistaken….We believe that it is a document of the rules of the game for Christians ”
–I don’t think the bible is totally fallible. I think reading it all in a literal way, or taking every word choice as God’s exact words (as God’s own deliberate word choice) is silly. You know, missing the forest for the trees. The point, the boiled-down message of the writer to the historical audience, is what matters.
I take the bible “with a grain of salt”, believing that God was involved in the individuals who wrote down and “oral traditioned” the original content. While it is clear that amazing attention to detail & accuracy in copying did happen, prior to that I don’t see how the material can’t have been mucked up some, goofed up some, and editorialized or politicized a bit.
Re: “If God did not preserve His Book in a form that is understandable throughout the years and cultures, then how do we know what is true and what is not? In other words, God then plays a game of unwritten rules, just like Susie and the coffee). I believe that God has preserved His word so that we have a good understanding of the rules of the game…The Bible is that manual of the rules of the game.”
–hmmmmm…. I hear what you’re saying. But considering the bible to be laying out ALL the rules of the game is what leads to a whole host of problems — women being subjugated (even benevolently) by men, public school as evil and “sin”, birth control as “sin”, pastors controlling people, child molesters being promoted… ok, i’m getting tired of rolling my eyes at the idiocy of it all. And as far as I’m concerned, reading the bible as a rule book can lead people to missing the point. Similar to how the pharisees missed the point(s).
Which brings me to my next thought (which I brought up on the Fred post) — the pharisees were diligently mastering all the “rules” of the book(s) that existed. And that got them severely off track. Not only did they miss the point, but their focus on the words and the rules actually got them farther from the heart of God, not closer. So, while the written material is helpful, it is not the key to knowing God.
Another thing — why in the world did Jesus say the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth, if all that was needed was the written word, a manual? Did the Holy Spirit guide the canon into “leather-bound all truth” and then say “see ya”? Don’t think so.
Re: “…homosexual in orientation…some people may be born with this tendency…But, I cannot get around the clear history of the Scripture…It begins in the Garden in which the woman was made to be a companion to man, not another man.”
–Well, the human race had to procreate somehow. But does this Garden of Eden / woman-made-for-the-man example, taken alone, mean that it is therefore wrong for any intimate relationship BUT woman/man to happen? I can see this story as saying that human connection is vital and good. It doesn’t say necessarily that man/man or woman/woman connection is bad. It doesn’t go that far.
But I know there are other things in the bible that inform how one reads back into Genesis.
Re: “Work it through. Who knows what’s in your future!!”
–Well, that’s just the most exciting thing I’ve heard in a long time!
Elastigirl –
I see you responded and Dee jumped in. I have more thoughts but don’t feel compelled to add them on now. I’m ssssoooo glad to hear that you are feeling hugged and loved by God these days. That is the most wonderful thing of all, isn’t it? Over the thirty years that I have been a Christian, I have gone through many, what I call, “peaks and valleys” or “romps in the desert.” I always find that I am overwhelmed with God’s goodness and love as I am coming out of the low, or dry places. I always hope to not enter the desert again, but one just never knows what is in the future. We hope and pray for the best but should be prepared for the battle, as Paul suggests.
Thanks, bridget2, for your kindness and encouragement.