John Piper Cautions the New Reformed Movement

A British chap named Dan, who is a blogging friend of TWW, commented early this morning. He, too, has a blog, and occasionally I check in as I did this morning. His current post alerted me to a thought-provoking article at Desiring God entitled: “What cautions do you have for the New Reformed Movement?”


Desiring God is generous in granting permission to share information provided on its website, so here is the article in its entirety.
 

What cautions do you have for the New Reformed Movement?

"July 13, 2010 By John Piper
 

The following is an edited transcript of the audio.
 

Would there be any cautions that you would have for the New Reformed/New Calvinist Movement you referenced earlier?
 

Yes.
 

I will give you one that is from a prophetic word given to me yesterday—take it or leave it. I'm cautious when people come to me with these kinds of things. But this rung true, and you can see that it is true without making a claim to special divine authority.
 

My caution concerns making theology God instead of God God. Loving doing theology rather than loving God.
 

Sam Crabtree said to me once, "The danger of the contemporary worship awakening is that we love loving God more than we love God." That was very profound. And you might love thinking about God more than you love God. Or arguing for God more than you love God. Or defending God more than you love God. Or writing about God more than you love God. Or preaching more than you love God. Or evangelizing more than you love God.
 

Reformed people tend to be thoughtful. That is, they come to the Bible and they want to use their minds to make sense of it. The best of them want to make sense of all of the Bible and do not pick and choose saying, "I don't like that verse. That sounds like an Arminian verse, so we will set it aside." No! Fix your brain, don't fix the Bible.
 

The kind of person that is prone to systematize and fit things together, like me, is wired dangerously to begin to idolize the system. I don't want to go here too much, because I think the whiplash starts to swing the other direction, and we minimize the system, thinking, and doctrine to the degree that we start to lose a foothold in the Bible.
 

But that would be a big caution. We should be intellectually and emotionally more engaged with the person of Christ, the person of God—the Trinity—than we are with thinking about him. Thinking about God and engaging with him are inextricably woven together. But the reason you are reading the Bible, and the reason you are framing thoughts about God from the Bible, is to make your way through those thoughts to the real person.
 

The danger on the other side is to say, "All that intellectual stuff, no, no, no. Doctrine, no. Intellect, no. Study, no. Experience, yes!" People who do this wind up worshipping a God of their own imagination. It feels so right, so free, and so humble because they are not getting involved in all those debates. But it isn't. It is losing a grip on reality. So we are compelled to think hard about God and the Bible.
 

Hanging on with the danger I am speaking of is pride—a certain species of pride. There are many species of pride, and this is just one of them. You can call it intellectualism. There is also emotionalism, but that isn't the danger we are talking about right now. Intellectualism is a species of pride, because we begin to prize our abilities to interpret the Bible over the God of the Bible or the Bible itself.
 

When I asked Rick Warren, "What is your doctrine of the Bible?" He said, "Inerrant and authoritative. But I don't mean all my interpretations of it are inerrant and authoritative." And that is of course right. We should talk that way.
 

So that would be my flag, the danger of intellectualism. And maybe the danger of certain aspects of it becoming so argumentative or defensive that it becomes unnecessarily narrow. That is funny for me to say because I think I am a really narrow guy, and a lot of other people think so too.
 

By John Piper. © Desiring God. Website: desiringGod.org

 

We believe John Piper has given all of us something to take to heart, and we hope he is enjoying his time with his wife Noel.

 

 

2:20 PM Addendum  I, Dee, would like to add a couple of comments/questions.
 

Tomorrow I intend to show a video of Ed Young Jr that Tom Rich had on his site. This video will help to highlight the problem of ignorance of both doctrine and Scripture. I heartily agree with Piper on this point.

 

However, his narrative appears to stop short of some of the real problems of the Reformed movement. Have any of you listened to a pastor who states that he is a sinner and then gives an inane example like, "I spend so much time caring for the flock that I don't exercise enough". This is what I call a "good" sin. The flock smile thinking, "What a great pastor. He sacrifices even his body for us."

 

The pastor never confesses the deep sins that no one would smile at. For example, he abuses his wife, he is arrogant, etc. In fact, he leaves the congregation with the idea that he has conquered all the really "bad" sins. The problem is, he hasn't.

 

Piper states the his concern for the Reformed movement is a self assured intellectualism at the possible expense of seeking Christ. This is commendable. I have a pastor who says that many Calvinists have a rote formula that reduces the Bible to a series of equations.

 

However, it is also a backhanded compliment to the "intellectualism" of the Reformed movement. I would have like to see him address the underlying problems of this self assured arrogance which lead to serious sin and abuse of the flock.

 

What happens when self-assured intellectualism results in minor doctrines that are elevated to the level of "A" issues? These might include a young earth creationism, a certain eschatological bent, size of family, patriarchy, etc. Then, those who disagree are thrown out of Sunday school classes, told they are bordering on heresy, etc.

 

What happens when these self assured pastors then abuse people by utilizing techniques such as "turning them over "to Satan, degifting, church discipline, reporting them to other churches, etc.?

 

Also, what happens if there are those who disagree with their conclusions on certain controversial passages of Scripture such as baptism? In fact, some of what he calls intellectualism could be looked at as pseudo-intellectualism since it begins with presuppositions. (Once again I state that we are theologically conservative).

 

Finally, he does not address the concerns of a great many people who have been hurt by churches such as Sovereign Grace Ministries. This organization is headed by C J Mahaney who preaches the supposed "intellectualism" of the Reformed movement. Yet the result of this "intellectualism" is devastating if the numbers of reported abuse is to be believed.

 

So, I hope Piper will look below the surface of his comments and attempt to address the real sin of this movement. But, unlike "intellectualism", these sins won't sound so "nice."

 

Comments

John Piper Cautions the New Reformed Movement — 134 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “The kind of person that is prone to systematize and fit things together, like me, is wired dangerously to begin to idolize the system”

    Too late. It is already a huge problem. ST has been drilled into the young minds full of mush at the seminaries and bible colleges. They know the Word THROUGH ST. Go to SBTS and you will see they all know Grudem’s ST.

    Not only that but Piper has elevated complimentarianism to a primary salvic level.

    He is part of the problem. But promoting Rick Warren is only compounding the problem by going too far the other way. The Gospel is not about “felt needs”.


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    Thanks, Lydia, for your insightful comment. These are the important matters that must be discussed openly within Christendom, and I’m glad the internet is allowing us to do just that!


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    I’m going to go out on a limb and speak UP for Piper … I know Dee and Deb don’t mind a bit of discussion!! 😉 Plus I know Piper’s not very popular in some circles for A. his friendship with SGM/Mahaney and B. his complementarianism.

    I like Piper because of mainly his PASSION. Intellect and theology – yes. I’ve heard him speak countless times whenever he comes to the UK and love his brilliant mind. But what grabs my attention is when he is frequently moved to REAL (not Mahaney-esque) tears by his passion for God. He seems to tend towards a more healthy balance between emotions and intellect than many of the other “New Reformed” types like Mahaney and Driscoll etc.

    But re: the complementarianism – I really do know the problems. I used to be complementarian until I saw the abuses in SGM which really soured me. Take Wayne Grudem, who does nothing but writes, speaks and clearly thinks nothing but complementarianism. Piper doesn’t seem to go that extreme – but I still hear the cautions.

    That’s my pro-Piper plug. I like him. I’ll go hide now 😉


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    Dan, you are welcome to like Piper. I liked him for a long time and thought he was genuine. I would only caution you to be careful. My questioning of him started a few years back when some family members moved to Minn after Wheaton to not only work for him but study under him. I was a bit stunned at their change when they came home to visit. At that point, I started paying more attention to not only his preaching but his actions. And I kept seeing many inconsistencies. If you take away his “passionate” presentations, what do you have? His theology,which has elevated comp doctrine to salvic position. Piper is a huge proponet of comp doctrine. Have you read his stuff? His views go from “be careful when giving men driving directions so you do not appear to be leading them’ to “take abuse for a season from your husband’. Oh, and if women who work have direct reports who are men, they MUST be careful not to give them commands. They ARE allowed to give them suggestions. See, it is not right for a woman to be in leadership over a man even in the secular world. It is not natural.

    In effect, Piper is very extreme. You should have heard his talk at the TW conference.Check out some of his stuff on CBMW. You might be surprised at the Piper you did not know. There is so much more but I will stop now.

    But don’t even get me started on the Rick Warren thing with Piper. Piper is having to ignore a lot to say that Warren presents the FULL Gospel. I think Piper got snowed by Warren which happens a lot to many. (Thank God Bob Dewaay did not fall for it)

    Warren is one of the nicest guys around in public. But he is also a chameleon when it comes to Theology. And there is that pesky truth that members of Saddleback sign a “covenant” that says they will not critisize the leadership or the church.


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    Fair play Lydia – I really do take that on board. Trouble with me is that when I like someone I tend to go a bit overboard and you are right, it’s important to look a bit deeper below the surface!


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    Mark Twain (creator of that drunken old sot Muff Potter) had much to say about religion in general; most of it directed at Calvinism, none of it charitable. He had this to say:

    “Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain.”
    from: –Notebook, 1879–

    I think all humans want certainty to one degree or another. It drives all of us to want a good outcome. Whether it’s for our stock portfolios to recover, or assurance of a better place beyond the grave, we all want certainty. I am glad that Piper is calling for a fulcrum point between intellectual and emotional certainty.


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    To our readers

    I was going to add a comment but decided to add my thoughts to today’s post which can be read above after the 2:20 addendum.


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    I like very much what Piper had to say in this article. I also like the addendum by Dee, and the comments thus far.

    I know the problems with some of Piper’s teachings, and I know that there are other problems in Reformed circles that Piper doesn’t address that can’t be brushed aside and need to be addressed. But in this specific matter, the danger of placing a love of theology above a love of God Himself, Piper is right on target.

    But the problems Piper describing, and those mentioned by Dee and others, are by no means unique to the Reformed camp. I’ve known very intellectual lovers of systematic theology who were Arminian who could just as easily put their love of theology before their love for God. Likewise, there are hyper-authoritarians amongst both Calvinists and non-Calvinists. In Southern Baptist circles, the authoritarian mindset prevails among much of the leadership, and the new Reformed types are still a minority in SB life (though a growing one). Same is true of those who elevate secondary and tertiary doctrines to primary level.

    There was definitely something of a “good sin” mindset in what Piper had to say. His response of “Calvinists can be too intellectual”, is a lot like answering a job interview question of “What are your greatest weaknesses?” with “I’m too dedicated to my job, too loyal to my employers, and spend too much time in the office.” Also, Piper’s statements seem to imply or assume that non-Calvinists are non- or anti-intellectual. I suspect that scholars like Roger Olson and Gordon Fee would disagree with that assumption.

    What I’d like to see is Piper and other New Reformed leaders address problems that may be unique to their movement, rather than something that could be said of many non-Calvinists today as well. But maybe there aren’t many problems that are unique to the New Reformed movement – maybe the problems we see in so many churches today are more the result of sinful human actions than a particular doctrinal perspective.


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    I left this on your previous post, but just to make sure everyone knows the truth, I’m re-posting it here, too.

    Yes, I have figured out your secret identities. Now it is time for the whole world to see …

    The Real Dee and Deb


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    Junkster

    You are a double nut! If only…..


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    Junkster,

    You definitely get the prize for figuring out our secret identities. Just to be clear, Dee is the one in front. I’m guarding her back.


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    Deb
    You really need to go red. For me to look like that it would require the removal of lots of subcutaneous tissue along with all sorts of additives like I used to see in Dallas.

    Actually, is Junkster saying we are the Angelina Jolies of the evangelical blogging world?


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    How about a blast from the past – Charlie’s Angels? Trying to right the wrongs in Christendom…


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    Junkster

    Great comment. I have always admired Gordon Fee.

    You are right about these problems being endemic to all doctrinal perspectives. It does seem amusing to me that, for all of their “correct intellectualism, these guys have not solved church conflict.


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    More like “Mission Impossible.”


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    Dee & Deb,

    Have you ever heard of Tony Crisp? He is another fake Dr. Just wanting to know if you know anything about him.


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    It’s just how I see you ladies.

    I’ve always been partial to red hair …


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    What I find hard to accept in hyper-Calvinism: (aside from the complementarianism thing — I have been an egalitarian on race since about age 10, on gender since about age 15, and on sexual identity since about age 35)

    They worship the sovereignty of God, making it more powerful that God himself. It is as if God is not sovereign over his own sovereignty. But he is, and he choses to not exercise his sovereignty over us, allowing us to choose to love him and to obey him out of that love. Thus free will does NOT contradict the sovereignty of God.

    As a parent, I wanted my children to love me and obey me. I could have commanded them to do so. I could have made all of their choices for them. But then they would not have learned how to choose and their love would not be love by choice, and it probably would be closer to fear and respect than to love.

    BTW, we made our children explain what choices they had made that resulted unhappy adults because of their behavior, beginning about age 3. We would talk with them about consequences, and soon made them talk about how behavior sometimes had a natural consequence and sometimes an adult imposed consequence (never spanking in our house, but a lot of lost privileges and time out). Before age four, our son said “Daddy, don’t make me talk about choices and consequences, just spank me like Bobby’s daddy spanks him.” Now both of our children are competent adults who know how to make good decisions and to weight outcomes and consequences.

    All of that required that we withhold some of our sovereignty over our children so that we did not determine their behavior, only some of the consequences of that behavior.

    I believe that God is a better parent than I ever could be, and more generous and loving, enough to come and die to remove the consequence of my disobedient choices. To say he is trapped by his sovereignty is to make him a god I could not worship, which is why I cannot be a Calvinist.


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    Wow junkster, GREAT points…the cloaks of false humility can be so obvious at times. “Calvinistas” have perfected the art to a T.

    Anyways, it is very clear GOD is working on John Piper’s heart during this hiatus and time of reflection. I pray that God continues to open his heart and mind and EYES to all the problems addressed on this blog.

    I don’t want to expect TOO much, but it would mean a lot for someone of his stature to change the tone of his ministry and publicly reconsider some aspects of his doctrinal focus altogether!

    IT would be great if he could read some blogs like TWW and SGM Survivors…


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    Piper’s article is excellent. The reformed movement needs to hear this very much.

    The addendum are excellent thoughts, too.

    I have never read a Piper book or heard him speak. I have read some of his articles.

    I believe one of the things that will keep pastors and other Christians from the error that Piper identifies is practical ministry. Many of the super reformed people I know are big on theology discussions and short on real ministry.

    When you spend time with struggling and hurting people (and has been noted here – empathize with them because you, yourself have the same problems), your interest in theological systems is tempered at bit.

    Great post.


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    Annonymous,

    Excellent points! The Reformed Big Dogs are so busy speaking at conferences that they never model “real” ministry for their followers. Personally, I think they draw thousands of young, restless, and reformed because they want to be the next Piper, Mohler, MacArthur, or Mahaney. This phenomenon is akin to what happens at AMWAY function (aka conferences). I will have much more to say about this in the coming week in a post to be called “muti-level ministry”.


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    Doug Pirkle,

    I have never heard of Tony Crisp. Is he someone we should investigate?

    Good to hear from you.


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    Doug,

    I’m at the beach with just my Blackberry. Tony preached at Central Baptist in Douglasville last Sunday, right?

    Looks like he was at the SBC Annual Meeting in Orlando promoting his ministry True Life Concepts. I saw his educational credentials. What concerns you about them?


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    Arce:

    Great post regarding your views on the sovereignty of God and man’s free will. I agree with you that God allowing free will, while maintaining His sovereignty, is a more accurate characterization of God’s enormity and just makes a lot of good sense. Your example was excellent.

    I also believe in the equality of men and women, regardless of race or sexual behaviour they choose to identify with. However, it seems pretty clear to me that, while being equal, men and women do have clearly defined roles that are different and do complement each other. The bible also differentiates those roles in relation to marraige and in relation to church ministry.

    Also, while a person chooses to engage in sexual behaviour of their liking, that also doesn’t make them unequal with those who might have a problem with their choices. However, it is clear that they are choices, and there is no reasonable scientific evidence whatsoever that could prove that someone is born a homosexual. The bible is definitive in pointing out that homosexuality is sin. But, it is not more of a sin than fornication or adultery.

    Finally, it is funny how Calvinists and Free-willers go at it, when the whole argument is a bogus one, taken from out-of-context scriptures.

    If you think about what the promise was to Abraham and Isaac, that, “All Nations,” not just the Jews, would be blessed through them, (meaning through their seed, who was Christ, as it points out in Galatians), you understand that the predestination that Paul was talking about in Ephesians and Romans, was that the Gentiles were every bit as chosen to be in Christ as the Jews were. Read Ephesians 2. In Romans, Paul points out to Jews that he who is a Jew is one inwardly, not of the flesh, and they have to be saved through faith in Jesus Christ to be saved. He is talking to those who had a superiority complex and was leveling the playing field with the Gentiles.

    Then, in Ephesians, he is talking to Gentiles, who have an inferiority complex, pointing out that they had been predestined, or chosen, just like the Jews had been to receive salvation through Jesus Christ, as well, who came through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, through the circumcision, etc.

    That is the big revelation that Paul had regarding the Gentiles, that they, too, had been chosen before time to be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. THAT is the predestination that Paul refers to; not some ridiculous, you’re in, you’re out, hand-picking of who will be saved. That’s nuts.


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    “I also believe in the equality of men and women, regardless of race or sexual behaviour they choose to identify with. However, it seems pretty clear to me that, while being equal, men and women do have clearly defined roles that are different and do complement each other. The bible also differentiates those roles in relation to marraige and in relation to church ministry.”

    Michael, While I agree with you about gender and sex and disagree with ARce on that issue, I have to wonder how CHRISTIAN men and women can be equal but have clearly defined “roles” outside the biological ones. Can you elaborate what those “roles” are outside of the obvious biological “roles”? And please be specific.

    (And you do realize that “roles” are something we pretend to be. The root is French denoting the scroll actors used once upon a time for their ‘pretend’ role)


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    Lydia:

    First, regarding the word, “role,” yes, actors used scrolls to learn their parts, but before they used these scrolls, it just meant what it was, “a roll,” as of parchment. And although actors used the scroll, it came to have a more general meaning relating to parts one played off stage, such as one’s function, job, duty.

    I am not going to leave out biology because biology was created on purpose by God, in order for each gender to function as he or she should regarding many things. One of my jobs tonight as we prepare to leave for vacation is to put the storage compartment on top of the car. It’s my job because I’m stronger and taller than my wife. That doesn’t make her less equal than me. So, biology does dictate some of the jobs we have, again making neither less equal.

    Ephesians says that the husband is the head of the wife. The wife is not the head. He is using that figuratively to paint a picture of Christ and the church, but also to lay out how a man and woman should relate to one another. They are not both heads, nor are they both bodies. So, it’s clear that a man and woman are different, but he makes no remark here that one is better or higher than the other. The body and the head cannot exist without each other, so they are to be mutually submissive, loving, and respectful to each other. Ultimately, does one have authority in the relationship? I think so. But authority serves, it doesn’t lord over. In fact, it lowers itself willingly below the other. That is authority’s true function, Jesus being the example of humbling Himself below those whom He serves, bearing the penalty for our sin. With authority also comes greater responsibility.

    In relation to the Body of Christ, there are places where women serve and minister and there are places they don’t. There are places where men minister and places they don’t. There are certainly references in Joel and Acts to women prophesying. There indicates in Timothy that women can serve as deacons. There is no indication that I’ve seen where they were elders, except that the older women were to teach younger women. Teaching the younger women would be one of those jobs that a woman can do that a man has no instruction to do. So, in relation to that function, you could say that a woman has both the responsibility and authority in that area.

    Whether biological, family relations, or relations in the Body of Christ, there may be different functions and layers of authority, but authority is not a synonym for superiority; it would be more synonymous with being a servant. And whether in authority or under authority, there remains equality, because of our intrinsic value as God’s creations.


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    Hi Michael

    I am neither a complementarian or an egalitarian. I find both of those terms confusing and I don’t clearly fit into either just as I don’t clearly fit Reformed or Arminian. Instead I have a series of questions that I struggle with..

    1. Many theologians, including Tim Keller (well-known theological conservative), agree that Junius, who was outstanding among the apostles was actually Junia, a woman. Keller writes that in his book, Misquoting Truth in which he writes a response to Bart Ehrman. So, was there a woman in that group? If so, what gives?

    2. I know more about theology than many men. I write about theology on this blog. If a man (I am not referring to you) reads what I have written, learns something and he is a conservative who believes a woman should not teach a man, is he in sin?

    3. I know a female doctor who serves on a numbers of Christian boards. She had two children. Her husband elected to stay at home with the children. They have a very happy marriage. There are many conservative Christians who would condemn the man for “reversing roles.”Why is this a problem?

    4. What happens when a woman (I speak from personal experience) knows more than men on a particular theological issue? Should she teach them? (I did, so was I wrong)?

    5.I have not been impressed with a number of churches in their response to pedophilia and spousal abuse.I contend that the churches would do better by having women amongst the elders. I have not seen many elders wives who are proactive in this area.

    Pete Briscoe, the son of Jill and Stuart Briscoe (beloved amongst the evangelicals), now has a woman as an assistant pastor at Bent Tree Bible Fellowship in Dallas. I know her and can attest to the fact that she is very conservative theologically. The church is a lively, missional, conservative church. No lightening bolts have struck the church. Are he and the elders in sin for allowing this?

    As time has passed for me, I have some concerns that cultural mandates are being passed off as Biblical mandates. I am less sure of the gender thing than I used to be. But, it is not an “A” issue for me as it is for some.


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    Radiance

    I wish he would read SGM Survivors. But, I think he knows there are issues and doesn’t want to have to deal with them. I join you in your prayers.


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    I was there and I had his information pulled within 5 minutes. He put on quite a show. He maybe fine, but he is using an honorary doctoral degree as if he earned it and I blistered my pastor for introducing him as a doctor. I also asked him after the service if his doctor degree was earned. He said no and I asked him way he thought it was ok to lie. I pulled my girls away from his table and he did not know what to do.


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    Junkster

    I agree with you. These problems are endemic to all sides of the theological divide. I think the problem with the Calvinista crowd is that they believe they will solve the problems if folks buy their theology. The problem is that “perfect theology” isn’t and that is their problem. They create many issues by demanding that everyone view things through their “perfect”lens. That is why they go overboard with the “B” issues. If they feel that their way is the only way to look at things, then they will insist that everyone march lockstep with the little things. This will cause much unnecessary grief.


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    You go, Doug!!!!


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    Michael, I am 5’1l and it would be more likely that I would put the case on the car for say…Piper… who is very tiny. I could probably pick Russell Moore (who wants more patriarchy because comps are wimps) up and carry him out of a burning building because he is so tiny. But he could not save all 5’11 of me. And don’t forget all those pioneer women who had babies in the back of the wagon and worked the fields with the men. Sometimes our view of “roles” comes right out of Ozzie and Harriet. But some conveniently forget the cruel necessity of centuries.

    Kephale does not mean authority. There are quite a few clear authority words the Holy Spirit could have Inspired for authority but He did not. There are enough head/body metaphors in the scripture to understand what it means what those in the 1st Century would have understood.

    You are not your wife’s Savior, nor her earthly mediator, the metaphor does not relate to authority. But to love.

    So, I guess it also means NO single men as elders.

    That is just for starters because what you are describing is not “equal” in the Body at all when it comes to how to Body functions.


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    Michael

    I do have a question and I promise you that I have no particular bone to pick. Please help me to understand what “authority” specifically, not theoretical, looks like in a marriage. I do not like the typical one…the husband makes the decision if the two cannot agree. If servanthood is in play on both sides then both should be servants. I am looking for concrete authority. And if this authority is given by God, what will the husband be judged on, separately from the wife, before God? Once again, I am looking for specifics.


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    I always miss an opportunity! So, I will see if Micheal will outline for us exactly what his “authority” means in his marriage. What does it look like on a day to day basis.


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    Lydia

    So Paul should not have served as an apostle since he was single. Good point about NO single men serving.It does say that an elder has to be the husband of one wife. What if his wife dies? Is he disqualified?


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    Head in that context means source, as in the head of a river or stream. It does not mean boss.


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    Arce

    Could you please elaborate? If the husband is the head or source, what is he the source of? My views on this subject started evolving directly as a result of being in Pete Briscoe’s church and seeing his belief in women being allowed to go beyond what is the norm in most conservative churches.

    Pete urged me to teach a class on the history of the Reformation which I knew something about. I pointed out to him I was a woman and he challenged me to prove why I couldn’t teach such a class. I couldn’t and I went on to develop a two year course on church history using various published resources.

    When I read Keller’s book about three years ago, I was further challenged by the very real possibility that a female, Junia, was considered among the outstanding apostles.

    Then I read an issue of Christian History Magazine on the role of women in the early church. It showed a picture found in the catacombs of a woman lecturing, with a Bible in hand to a group of men gathered around a table with a loaf and drink on the table.

    So, I am continuing to look at all insights into this considering the fact that I am one of two women writing a blog which often critiques the evangelical church. In Mahaney’s world, women are allowed no input into the pastors and their roles in the church. Yet, I am doing something quite similar in this blog.And, I am definitely critiquing pastors:)


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    Dee,

    Thank you for your thoughtful questions. Wow, I hit some hot button, because this all began when I made some vague comment to Arce about different roles, but affirming equality among men and women.

    But, I’ll try to address your questions and others’.

    1. As you know, whether Junias was a woman or not is up for debate. Weren’t you the one the other day who asked me if I was going to base my theology on one verse? If Junias was a woman that would put an interesting twist on things for some. So, to your question, “Was there a woman in that group?” I don’t know. Do you know there was a woman in that group? The fact is, some believe but no one knows. So I’m not going to speculate that there was. However, those who speculate that Junias was a woman also speculate that she was married to Adronicus. So, if she was serving as an Apostle, she was serving jointly with her husband.
    2. To answer your second question, I don’t believe men have a corner on knowledge and I’ve learned so much from women throughout my life; from my mother, from Kay Brady, who taught me Sunday School at FBC, Dallas, when I was in high school, various other great women teachers in college, and my wife, whom I’ve learned so much from, not necessarily theology, though.
    3. Concerning your female doctor friend, as long as her and her husband are in agreement, I don’t see what the problem is, theologically. I know that Titus 2:5 says that women are to be workers at home, but that might be in contrast to being idle or an idle gossiper at home, as is instructed somewhere else. The verse also says to be subject to their husbands. The word subject means to arrange under, to subordinate, to put under…So, you said her husband elected to stay at home with the children, so for her to work outside the home in this case seems appropriate. I do have questions about why he would choose to stay at home, though.
    4. I don’t have a problem with men learning theology from women. I think many of these questions are digging at the scripture where Paul tells Timothy that he doesn’t allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. I think the emphasis here is not so much the teaching, but the exercise of authority over a man with regard to teaching. However, I really don’t know how a woman would do that. So, this verse has always been a question mark in my mind, hoping I will understand it more clearly later.
    5. I agree that pedophilia and spousal abuse have not been addressed adequately, and far too many men wrongfully mistreat their wives. I would add that far too many wives mistreat and do not show respect to their husbands. And I agree that women offer a different and unique perspective that men don’t have. And I wish that elders would seek their wives’ counsel. If they don’t they’re stupid. And if they don’t ask for it, then the women should give it anyway. That is their God-given duty. Elders who are single would do well to seek the counsel of women as well. But, you’re going to have to convince me, biblically, for me to pull the trigger on appointing women as elders.

    If I am reading you correctly, I share the same concerns that cultural mandates are being passed off as Biblical mandates. I believe part of the reason is that there is still a push back on long-held beliefs that seem to push women down, instead of lift them up. Maybe when men learn how to love their wives properly and pastors and elders stop lording over, then we will gain more trust in these areas.


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    Dee:

    I am still learning in this area, but I’d like to share with you what I learned in the first three months of my marriage.

    My wife and I were not in agreement about which church we should go to. I liked the church I had been attending for a year and really believed that was where the Lord would have us worship. My wife disagreed.

    I remember so clearly when I walked into the bathroom one Sunday morning, I looked into the mirror, and I know the Lord asked me, “Are YOU willing to change?” That was quite a question because I was taught by the misguided bible scholars that SHE was the one who was supposed to change, not ME, since I had, “authority,” in the marriage. I felt like the Lord was also asking me through that experience, “Where do you think your wife learns humility?” “From you.” Guess what? I WAS willing to change and the next week we went to another church and my wife and I agreed that was the church we needed to attend.

    I think authority in that situation was leading with humility, preferring her over myself, and setting a right example of laying down my wrongly- perceived right to demand her compliance. One of the Greek words for authority means the power to choose. So, I used the power of choice to choose something we could agree on. I could have used that authority to demand my way, and my wife would have complied, but reluctantly. But, that would not have been godly and it would have hurt my marriage.

    I also developed a belief early on that, no matter who was right or wrong and no matter who started an argument, I was the one who was responsible for initiating reconciliation. It seemed to me that if I was the head of the wife like Christ was head of the church, and even though He was the One offended by our sin, yet HE was the One who initiated reconciliation, then even if I was the wronged in our marriage, I was the one who was responsible for initiating reconciliation.

    I’m not saying that my wife shouldn’t, I’m just saying that I thought it was my responsibility; a leadership responsibility that carries the power to choose. I could choose not to, but again, it would not be godly and it would not help my marriage.

    When you ask about authority, I think and answer regarding responsibility. When someone has a responsibility, I believe they have authority in that area. So authority means to have the power to decide. But with that power comes another responsibility; to love. And if one has the responsibility and authority to love, then he will choose ways where he and his wife are in agreement or wait until they are in agreement. He is not to lord over his wife.

    I think the husband’s judgment comes in the way of a crappy marriage if he doesn’t treat his wife right. We tend to reap what we sow, right?


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    Lydia:

    If you had come over to my house tonight and wanted to help me put my storage unit on top of my car, I would have welcomed the help. Are you one who thinks women can compete at the same level athletically, as well? I’m referring to the rule, not the exception.

    Regardless, I don’t think I could have helped my wife breastfeed our children. And guess what? I didn’t feel like I was not her equal because I was not allowed by God to function the way she functions. The point is, men and women ARE different biologically, psychologically, behaviorally, etc., as much as you seem not to want to admit it, and those differences don’t make one…or the other less than the other.

    Kephale means head. However, the way it is used in Ephesians, metaphorically, it DOES mean authority, according to the Greek Lexicon and Vines Greek dictionary. Thayer’s Lexicon says, “Metaph. Anything supreme, chief, prominent; of persons, master, lord:…of a husband in relation to his wife.” Vines says,
    “metaphorically, of authority or direction of God in relation to Christ, of Christ in relation to believing men, of husband in relation to the wife.”

    Furthermore, if you’ll read this whole passage in context, before that verse it says, “Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.” The word, “subject,” does not mean submit, but pertaining to one’ s self, which in the sentence probably means, belong to your husband. (Thayer’s Lexicon says part of the definition is, “belonging to another.”).

    And following the verse about the husbands being the head of the wife, it says, “But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.” “Subject,” in this verse means to arrange under, to subordinate, obey, to submit to one’s control. So, the context strengthens the meaning that the head is about authority.

    But, having said that, it is not referring to the lord it over type of authority that is not of God, it is referring to the type of authority that you are referring to, the authority and responsibility to love and to lay down his life for his wife. If you’ll read my posts, I’ve consistently said that. Now, if you have a problem with a husband laying down his life for his wife as Christ did for the church, well, there’s nothing more I’ll be able to say and you’ll just have to live with that problem.

    I don’t believe I said single men could not be elders. That must be your conjecture. And finally, I think the bible does make it clear that in Christ there is neither male or female, speaking of equality. I believe that men and women are equal in the body of Christ, even though they do not function the same, and I believe they are equal in marriage, even though they function differently.

    Frankly, Lydia, you’ve offered up very little, if any, biblical support for your opinion and you sound more like someone who has a chip on her shoulder. Am I right?


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    Dee:

    If you’ll look at the Greek, it seems to be referring to one wife, in contrast to having many wives. So, the point is, an elder should not have multiple wives. I don’t think this would disqualify one who is single or widowed or a remarried widow. It is thought that Paul once was married, although we don’t know what happened to his wife.

    However, there is a depth of understanding and perspective, having been married to one wife for a number of years, that a married man can bring to an eldership that a man who has never been married could bring;I’m thinking of your comments about pedophilia and spousal abuse. So while a single man who has never been married may not be disqualified, I would prefer one who was married or had been married.


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    Lydia, as one wise lady once told me: there is a difference between thinking BIBLE-VERSELY about a subject, and thinking BIBLICALLY.

    Notice how many in the complementarian community make idols of their interpretations of passages such as 1 Timothy, Titus 2, et al. but fail to, with the same fervor, break down the meanings and implications of passages such as The Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 25 (about visiting prisoners and inviting in strangers), or Acts 2.

    Take for example this rather startling verse:

    “All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.” ~

    *Gasp* YES this is straight from Acts 4:32-35, not the Communist Manifesto…(actually it might be in that too I don’t know LoL.)

    At the end of the day, does GOD care more about whether an elder is married, or whether we are living out the virtues of Acts? Does GOD care about head coverings or whether the church is preaching Christ, caring for the widows and orphans, seeking out the leprous, and washing the feet of the lost?!

    ** Which brings me to my next thought:

    I was thinking the other day about a missionary friend who told me about how her late husband air-dropped Spanish translations of the Gospel of John in rural Mexico.

    And I thought to myself, “Is the Gospel of John sufficient?” Uh oh…nowhere in it does Jesus say women cannot be pastors. Oh no!
    What if a woman ends up with a copy, falls in love with Jesus, gets carried away, and decides to start preaching the Gospel in public! What if she starts to run her own services by the market? What if she starts baptizing people? Oh the horrors of having only the Gospel of John in one’s possession!

    And then I thought, wow: even PAUL warned against elevating him over Jesus! We are not to ultimately hinge Christianity on Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas. “Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?”~ 1 Corinthians 1:13

    I am NOT suggesting that “ALL” Scripture is not profitable…but it is definitely safe to say John 3:16 (and the entire book of John for that matter) is far MORE “profitable” than 1 Timothy 3.

    Let me ask you: does our eternity hinge on 1 Timothy 3?

    I wanted to point out how self-serving and agenda-driven the picking and choosing of which passages to prioritize over others really is. It’s so Pharisiacal.

    “They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger.” ~ Matthew 23:4

    ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ ~ Matthew 25:45

    And finally:

    “Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love.” ~ Revelations 2:4


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    (Disclaimer: I lean complementarian. I just refuse to make a legalistic, man-centered, systematic breakdown of the doctrine an idol.)

    For complementarian thoughts on on complementarian idolatry, I encourage readers to visit this link:

    http://www.theologyforwomen.org/2009/07/complementarian-idolatry.html


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    Michael

    You write in such a nice and nonthreatening style. I could learn a thing or two from you. 🙂 You are a delight to have here commenting on the blog.

    The only reason that it is a hot button issue is that this a blog that is written by two women which is critiquing the church. This is not the norm. Both of us have lived what anyone would deem a traditional life. We stayed at home with our children even though both of us have MBAs and could have had excellent jobs.

    Pete Briscoe challenged me to think long and hard about various assumptions that I held. At the same time, I had a mini”crisis of faith.” Its funny, my daughter being diagnosed with what was thought to be a terminal disease did not cause this. That only brought me closer to the Lord.

    What hit me hard is when I discovered that the woman caught in adultery was not in the earliest Scriptures. You will note that there is a line drawn before and after this story.

    At that moment, I wonder how much I really understood about the Bible. I decided to go on a journey and read everything I could get my hands on about how we got our Canon, the supposed contradictions of Scripture, etc. I read extensively of other faiths and of atheism and studied their arguments.

    The results? I became convinced that our Scriptures told the truth. Not only that I started a long term witness with a man high up in the Mormon church. He even wrote a book about our conversations. I also spend much time reading on sites such as New ExChristians.Net to look for ways to reach those radically opposed to the faith. Friends joke about the door to door people who come to my house. They really get a discussion with me. I have this philosophy that God brings people to my door and that I will not let them go without challenging them a bit to think.

    The great John Lennox was coming to my area. He debates Dawkins, et al and is a chaired Professor of Mathematics at Oxford. He and I corresponded about my church’s fixation on young earth creationism and their hostility to Old Earth, etc. He told me that such a viewpoint was harming the church in Europe. He invited me to join a group known as the Fixed Point Foundation which is dedicated to providing top notch debaters to debate the New Atheists, such as Dawkins, Hitchens, etc. In fact, I went to a luncheon in Birmingham at their headquarters and heard Hugh Ross speak. I plan to write about this in the near future.

    Here is link to a online video of Lennox debating Dawkins through the auspices of Fixed Point.

    http://fixed-point.org/index.php/video/35-full-length/164-the-dawkins-lennox-debate

    Michael, I love the Bible and do not believe in playing willy nilly with Scripture. But over the past decade, my view on women has begun to change. Some might say that this means I am becoming a “liberal” but you would find that my views on the essentials is absolutely orthodox and uncompromising.

    I guess I can say that I am not sure about some of the assumptions about the role of women but am open to all ideas. I think you would find your assumptions challenged by the family I mentioned. Ron, stayed at home with his daughters. They are now grown and healthy Christians. While at home he developed a small computer company that became quite successful. Namby pamby he is not!

    You sound like you have a great marriage and that you are a servant to your wife. Blessings


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    Michael,

    One other point, I have found the wives of elders in churches that are extremely conservative to be overly submissive. Is that possible? Yep. They do not get involved with the working of the elder board because they are “women.”

    I contend that God does call women to help oversee the church. He put men and women together in marriage and thus shows that women have something to offer beyond biology. I believe the church is making a big mistake by excluding women from leadership. The church loses 1/2 of the equation. Now, if a church feels that women cannot be elders, they could form an advisory board of women and call them advisors. Why not?


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    Radiance

    I like what you have to say. You have thought things through from a Biblical perspective and you ask questions. One of the things that concerns me about many in the church is they stop asking questions and get caught in a safe rut. I tired with women’s Bible studies years ago. So many of them were the same old, same old-read a passage, ask simplistic questions and write simplistic answers.

    I am thinking about starting a new group that would ask critical questions and get women to think beyond the typical. I am thinking about combining a two year read through the entire Bible coupled with some books by Tozier, Nouwen, etc. There is a group for men that study these books but none, at lease in my area, for women.

    Anyhoo, keep it up. Your insights are so thoughtful and you add much to this blog.


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    Radiance

    Fascinating web site. I plan to spend some time reading it today along with learning how to embed a video into my blog. I am having technical difficulties-techie I am not but I did show one of my offspring how to do something on the computer the other day so I am learning!

    I do not know what I lean these days. I seem to have thoughts from all sorts of camps.


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    Radiance, what you have described above is taking the whole scope of scripture for undertstanding AND realizing that several proof texts are used for some to have preeminance over others in the Body and marriage. You have hit the nail on the head.

    One must ignore quite a few “one anothers”, not lording it over,the first shall be last, etc., in order to come to their men always on top conclusions.

    Michael would not know this but I was a comp for many years. We really did try hard with the rules, roles and formula’s. I worked in that world in mega church marketing and was around quite a few of the comp celebrities/authors/seminar people for years. It is a HUGE industry on it’s own. But I got to see it for what it really is. That started the questioning. I was around some famous comp couples for a long time and the wife was either Patton back stage directing the “performance” or a doormat who thought it was a sin to have an opinion different than her husbands.

    Then a deep study of the Word really showed me what an empty shell of doctrine it is. Entire doctrines built around the word “authenteo” which is used only once in the NT and is a rare word even in Koine Greek. You canot even trust the Lexicon on that word. How is it used in Greek Antiquity? It certainly does not mean ‘authority over’ as it was translated. From what I can tell it has connotations of rule by force as in murder.

    I think the biggest AHA moment and a point of falling on my knees for the sin of comp thinking came when I found through study the horrible translation of Gen 3:16. A monk named Pagnini changed “turn” to “desire”in his 1300 translation of the Bible. Think about that. The whole meaning changes. God was saying that EVE would turn toward Adam ( away from God) and he would rule over her. And that is EXACTLY what happened! But many want us to believe that Eve’s turning to Adam is a virtue! It is so drilled into heads that many reading that will think it is a good thing. No. God is first. Women are to turn to God first and be a ONE FLESH UNION with their husband. The consequence of sin God spoke about in Gen 3:16 was the resulting Patriarchy that ensued. And we all know that God regulated everything eventually through the Law.

    An even bigger problem comps have is that there is NOT ONE SINGLE prohibition about women teaching men in the Old Covenant. Yet, they want us to believe that all of a sudden, in the New Covenant, it is a sin. One way they get around this is to map the Levite Priest to the elder/pastor function in the Body. It does NOT map.

    there are tons of examples of horrible translations when it come to this particular issue. Ironically, in 1 Tim 5, the word for “manage” the home is the same Greek word we get “despot” from! The wife is the despot of the home. Husband and wife are co-rulers as a ONE FLESH UNION. Seems the translators could not stomach such a thought.

    And the translation and understanding of 1 Corin 11 is so sad it makes me weep. A passage on the cultural problem of headcoverings in the NT Body is used for everything from teaching Patriarchy to a foundational verse used for ESS! ESS is heresy!! And it is everywhere from Mohler to Grudem to Piper, etc!

    But I think the most damaging part of comp theology is what they do to the Trinity through ESS and with Ezer.

    Because of their insistence that Ezer kenegdo means JrAssistant (in a one flesh union?), they actually dimish God who is referred to as an Ezer throughout the OT. Some males are even named after that word. Grudem goes as far to say that God “submits” to us when He helps us. Think about that one for a while.

    Comp theology has entered the realms of apostasy in these cases in their attempts to defend their doctrine of preeminance. I pray that many will run away from this stuff. Rules, roles and formulas are easy to follow. Abiding in Christ and being led by the Holy Spirit is where we need to be as believers, whether male or female.

    Jesus left NO earthly layer or mediator for women. The temple veil was torn in two for them, also. Women believers are NOT perpetual children who need a male leader. It says more about the men who insist on this.


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    “Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love.” ~ Revelations 2:4

    EXACTLY! And what is worse, churches and celebrity Christians are teaching women to do this.

    If folks knew what a huge money maker comp doctrine is, they would get it sooner and study for themselves. Unfortuantly, there are a lot of women who hide behind comp doctrine. They think it is a safe place for them. Thier husband will not be answering for them on J-Day. But many think he will.


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    An even bigger problem comps have is that there is NOT ONE SINGLE prohibition about women teaching men in the Old Covenant. Yet, they want us to believe that all of a sudden, in the New Covenant, it is a sin. One way they get around this is to map the Levite Priest to the elder/pastor function in the Body. It does NOT map.

    True, it does not map. The priesthood and sacrificial system of the OT is completely fulfilled in Christ. Other than Christ as our High priest, the only priesthood we have in the church is that of all believers. I think is a mistaken notion to seek correspondence between OT and NT functions (why put new wine in old wine skins?), but if one must do so, then the OT concept of prophet is closer to the NT concept of elder/pastor (or at least to the concept of pastor as we see it practiced today, where someone preaches each week to the congregation). A prophet is simply one who tells others what God has said. And we know that there were female prophets in both OT and NT times.

    What settled the issue for me, leading me to believe that women and men do not have distinctly defined “roles” in marriage or in the church, was a threefold recognition:
    (1) The concept of male dominance over women is a result of the Fall and curse, and has thus been part of human society from the beginning, even to today in the church, but it was never God’s intent in Eden before the Fall (and thus it should not be part of God’s redeemed and renewed kingdom after the coming of Christ)
    (2) A hierarchical viewpoint does not fit with the clear teachings throughout the whole NT on the nature of the kingdom of God, including Mark 9:35 (“If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all”), Gal 3:28 (“there is … not make and female”), and the many “one another” passages
    (3) The concepts of “pastoral authority” and “husband authority” are based on a few disputable passages and words that can easily (and perhaps more naturally) be interpreted differently than they have been commonly interpreted by men with a vested interest in perpetuating male dominance over females.

    The details are way more involved, but that’s the big picture.


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    “Could you please elaborate? If the husband is the head or source, what is he the source of?”

    The question is what would 1st Century people think “kephale” means. What did they think the ‘head’ represented in the head/body metaphor?


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    Please forgive the lenght of this post. It speaks to Junia, which was mentioned earlier. I have no link. this was copied from a now defunct blog where Dennis Swift, PhD, responded to the claim that Junia might be a man. This is not the full article but just part of it:

    Chrysostom goes on to mention that Junia was a teacher of teachers. Origin of Alexandria (c 185-253 A.D.), who is considered one of the greatest of all Christian scholars, wrote about and accepted Junia as a female apostle. Jerome (347-419 A.D.), translator of the Latin Vulgate, identifies Junia as a female apostle and worthy of honor. Hatto of Vercelli (924-961 A.D.) was the Bishop of Vercelli. He wrote Capitulae, a series of instructions for the clergy and was a Greek scholar. He is in agreement with the other church Fathers that Junia was a female apostle. Theophylact (1050-1108 A.D.) had the highest reputation as a scholar. His commentary on the Pauline epistles is esteemed for “appositeness, sobriety, accuracy, and judiciousness”. He cites Junia as a female apostle. Peter Abelard (1079-1142 A.D.) was renowned as a French philosopher and theologian. He is considered the founder of the University of Paris and wrote extensively on Paul’s words naming Junia as a female apostle.

    A few of the other patristic exegetes (experts in critical interpretation of the bible) who were adamant that the second person mentioned in Romans 16:7 to be a woman included: Ambroiaster (339-397 A.D.), Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-458 A.D.), Primasius (Sixth Century), John Damascene (675-749 A.D.), Hayamo (d. 1244 A.D.), Oecumenius (Sixth Century), Lanfranc of Bec (1005-1089 A.D.), Bruno the Carthusian (1032-1101 A.D.), and Peter Lombard (1100-1160 A.D.).

    How did Junia get lost? How did her story disappear? Who changed Junia’s name in scripture? As mystery writers say, “Who dunnit?” In an astonishing litany of sexism, misogyny, and blatant tampering with the texts, she was expunged from scripture in an act of male chauvinism.

    In the thirteenth century, Giles the Archbishop who was known as Giles of Rome, changed the text to a male’s name in his Agegidas Romanus13. Giles was deeply prejudiced against women. Part of the influence was Pope Boniface VIII, a famously corrupt Pope. Pope Boniface so opposed female leadership in the church that he ordered all nuns be confined to their convents. Giles’ “Politically correct” mistranslation of Junia appeared to flow from the papal prejudice that women were to be kept in their place. Giles along with Pope Boniface, started a trend to restrict the role of women in church, and Giles was one of the most influential thinkers of his time.

    The great universities of Europe sprung up during this era. The new universities became the learning centers of western civilization: Paris (1150), Bolgna (1088), Oxford (1107), Cambridge (1207), Sorbonne (1257), Seville (1254), Prague (1348), Florence (1349), Heidelberg (1385), and Cologne (1388).

    Women were not allowed in the universities, and the university teaching system in the Middle Ages meant that men became the sole purveyors of higher learning. Men wrote the philosophy texts and enshrined the ideas of male philosophies and constructed a male world view. They wrote the theology and that meant that the history of women in the churches was often deliberately left out.

    Theodora Episcopa was an early case of a woman bishop. Her name was changed to Theodor, leaving the “a” off, and in St. Zenos Chapel where her portrait is on a mosaic, the “a” on Theodora was defaced. Men could not stand the thought of a woman bishop. Many women were eliminated from church history, and the result was a textual invisibility for women. The “no girls club” was shaped by Giles’ view of faith, and it spread to the Western world, and in modern times has relegated women to a seat in the back of the gospel bus as second class citizens.

    Giles cleverly added an “s” to Junia thinking that he had changed it to a male name, Junias. However, your sins will find you out because the proper male ending would have been “ius” not “ias”.14
    According to Daniel B. Wallace, no instances of the name Junias have surfaced in Greek literature (absolutely not one). We have numerous examples in Greek literature and on ancient grave inscriptions of the name, Junia, and it is always in the feminine form.15

    Brooten comments “What can a modern philogist say about Junias? Just this, it is unattested. To date, not a single reference has been cited by any of the proponents of the Junias hypothesis. My own search for an attestation has proved fruitless. This means we do not have a single shred of evidence that the name Junias ever existed.16 It never existed, we know, because Giles invented it with the stroke of a pen adding the “s” on the end of Junia.

    In fact, philogists say that the name is not to be found in New Testament Greek manuscripts or in any ancient manuscripts or inscriptions: Greek or Latin, secular or sacred!

    There are three strikes against this being a masculine name. One, the early church interpreted it as feminine. Two, it is a Latin name and would not have been changed into Junias in the Greek. Three, Junia is found only as a female name in antiquity.

    The King James Version accurately translates Romans 16:7 as “ . . .Junia of note among the apostles.” The New American Standard Bible translates Romans 16:7 as “ . . .Junia . . .prominent among the apostles.” However, many modern translations and paraphrases fall prey to male bias and misogyny and render the text as a male name. The New International Version says “Greet Junias . . .outstanding among the apostles.” The Living Bible murders the text of Romans 16:7 with “ . . .Junia . . .respected by the apostles.”

    Other modern translations engage in mental gymnastics and add several of their own words. In the phrase, “They . . . (said to be) outstanding among the apostles”, they substitute the word “by” the apostles, changing the word “among” and adding the other four words, “said to be by” that are not in the Greek text. We are not to add words to scripture that are not there! For the meaning “by”, Paul would have used one of two totally different Greek words: para or pros, rather then using an en that implies selection from within the group.

    I studied Koine and Classical Greek under Dr. Frank Carver and knew Dr. Ralph Earle, both of whom were on the translation committee for the New International Version and the New American Standard Bible. In the class on textual criticism, it was pointed out that translation committees were not evenly balanced or free of denominational bias. The fundamentalists and conservative Baptist Greek scholars would not concede in the face of overwhelming historical and textual evidence that the Junia was a female apostle, and their vote outnumbered other committee members. So they left Junias at Romans 16:7. Equally, a committee loaded with neo-orthodox theologians insisted that Isaiah 7:14 should not be rendered “ . . .the Lord himself will give a sign. The Virgin will be with child”, but that “ . . .a young woman will be with child” (New English Bible). I never could comprehend how the Lord’s sign of the Messiah would be a young woman with a child. Young women have children all the time.

    Dr. Bruce Metzger was undoubtedly the greatest Greek textual authority of modern times. Dr. Metzger confessed that in the Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, (second edition, p. 421), that the UBS Committee made the ruling to make Romans 16:7 read Junias based on the gender assumption imposed on the text by members of the committee who were of Baptist and Calvinistic persuasion, who dumped their pejorative denominational baggage on the text.. Why, why, why-because to be faithful to the text would have meant the loss of your job or standing in the denomination. Shame, shame. Committees and individuals engage in subtle scripture twisting to accommodate their cultural biases or male chauvinism.

    That Junia was a woman apostle and a prominent one is just too much for their fragile male egos. That Junia was a woman apostle is not some kind of liberal feminist revision of scripture. It is only a proper hermeneutical principle to interpret Paul’s reference to her as an apostle, and that was the unanimous consensus until the 13th Century. All the Greek texts, manuscripts, and early documents of Christianity say she was a female apostle.

    Who says women can’t teach? Not Jesus, not Paul. It has always been a strange doctrine that will allow women to go to foreign mission fields to teach heathen men but will not allow the heathen men at home to be taught by the same woman. It makes absolutely no sense to think that a female who is learned in the scriptures cannot teach a man who is unlearned. Additionally, churches that proclaim that women are not to teach say it is acceptable for women to teach Sunday School to children or teens and for mothers to teach their sons. Where do you draw the line and say to the women that they can no longer teach a male once they reach a certain age. Is it because men do not want to be bothered with teaching the Bible to children? Is it not a convenient theology that insists Paul said women are not to teach in the church and then add to that your own exception clause, except for children and teenagers.

    Did not Paul address the men to teach their children (Ephesians 6:4), “Fathers do not exasperate your children but instead bring them up in the training and the instruction of the Lord.”
    Some pastors proudly pronounce that women are to be silent in the church. What about the rest of Paul’s teaching that women are to cover their heads. I have never seen a single woman’s head covered in a Calvinistic, fundamentalistic, Baptist, or Church of Christ Church, etc. etc. Is that not a cafeteria style theology where you “buffet style” pick and choose what you want to believe? I choose not to add hypocrisy to my list of sins.

    I challenge anyone to argue on historical, theological, textual, philological, or on the basis of Greek grammar that Junia was not a female apostle. Your argument will die inch by inch the death of a thousand qualifications. Scholars, pastors, and theologians respond with a deafening silence. They choose to teach the traditions of men and leave their women buried in the tombs of tradition.

    This day the Lord says, “Woman, thou art loosed!”

    Yes, my friend, there is no denying the role of women in the New Testament church. Indeed, there was a woman apostle by the name of Junia, and she was a prominent leading apostle. Apostles performed miracles, signs, wonders, preached, taught, cast out demons, planted churches, presided over the Eucharist, and instructed men and women. There is no wiggle room. Macho men have to die to self and allow what Jesus and Paul allowed, for women to minister. Let me send all the men t-shirts that say, “Get Over It!” The male bastion of bigotry towards women is crumbling. It is only a poisoned pot of pharisaical legalism that enslaves women and shackles them to male dominance. Weak men cannot handle strong women.

    The preponderance of evidence declares that in the New Testament church, women served as apostles, teachers, evangelists, missionaries, and prophetesses. Men, don’t give me your opinion, give me your scholarship that says otherwise.

    In Roman culture, the woman was in charge of the house. Is it no wonder that house churches in the New Testament were often led by women?17 Colossians 4:15 says, “. . . .and to Nymphia and the church in her house.” Once again, we know from the early church Fathers that Nymphia was a woman leading a house church teaching and preaching to males and females. It is a sad sordid story that male exegetes deceitfully changed her name to Nymphas. Thankfully, the feminine norm has been restored in many new translations.18

    What about Prisca? She is mentioned six times in scripture and helped to start three house churches, presiding over them. Just imagine starting three churches at one time when you could be flogged, stoned, expelled, or imprisoned for doing so.

    What about Mary Magdalene. She is called in early church writings “an apostle to the apostles.” Hippolytes, a conservative priest of the Third Century in Rome, also designated Mary as the first apostle in his commentary on “Song of Songs”. Mary Magdalene had a prominent role in the early church and spread the gospel through preaching and teaching.19 Case closed.

    What are men afraid of? The truth? On what basis do men say women should not preach or teach? When you boil it all down, it is their tradition, cultural erroneous teaching absorbed from Western Society or sometimes raw carnal male ego. Some men have tried to make their case by saying, in essence, that the early church Fathers and patristic writers were simply mistaken in their belief that Junia was a woman. They assert that Giles got it right and adding the “s” restored the real meaning to the text that Junias was a man. That ignores the evidence from Greek literature that Junia was a woman’s name, and that in Latin writing, Junia is a fairly common female name whereas Junias is nonexistent. Since Paul was writing to the church in Rome that spoke Latin, it is safe to assume that Junia was a woman. The evidence is lopsided in favor of a female apostle.

    That doesn’t stop some theologians who surmise that Junias is a nickname, a shortening of a Latin name such as Junianus. However, Grenz rightly asserts that Latin nicknames are longer than their counterparts, not shorter.20 Others have fumbled around searching for textual variants to build a case for a man, Junias. The important papyrus, P. 46, along with a few later minor manuscripts from the old Latin versions, 4th and 5th Centuries A.D., all read “Ioulian”. “Ioulian” is a feminine name equivalent to our Julia. The textual variants all support the interpretation of Junia as a female apostle.

    The scholars who stick to Junias refuse to admit the historical fact that Giles added the “s” in the 13th Century. In the face of the facts, they hold to a position that they are better suited than the early church Fathers to decide that Junia was a man. They are so bold to conclude that they see nothing in Romans 16:7 or church history that challenges the complementarian position for all-male leadership within the church.21 Church history and Romans 16:7 does not challenge all-male leadership, it renders it obsolete. Women were pastors, prophetesses, apostles, teachers, and missionaries in the New Testament church, and it continued until the 13th Century. Period!

    God told Moses to tell Pharaoh, “Let my people go!” God says today, “Let my women go! Let them go serve, let them go preach, let them go teach. Let them go prophesy, let them go to be who I created them to be!”

    Addendum
    The corruption of Romans 16:7 has some curious twists and turns. How did the King James translation get it right that Junia was a woman apostle?

    In the late 4th Century, Pope Damascus I commissioned Jerome to produce an authorized text. By 400 C.E., Jerome had produced a standard text in Latin, the Latin Vulgate. Latin was the common or vulgar language of the people, hence, the title Latin Vulgate. Jerome, using a variety of Greek texts, correctly identified the apostle in Romans 16:7 as a female although he used the variant name “Julian” (Julia).22

    Erasmus deserves a good share of the credit for bringing Junia’s name to light. Erasmus produced a landmark Greek version of the New Testament in 1516. Erasmus was at the forefront of a movement to study the original languages. Their slogan was, Ad fontes! (To the sources!).23 He used the Textus Receptus to identify the apostle of Romans 16:7 as Junia, prominent female apostle. Erasmus used Greek sources rather than corrupt Latin texts. He notes that “Julian” in the Latin Vulgate should read “Junia”. He noted that Paul gave the woman “Julia” her own place later in Romans 16. Erasmus also adds a postscript to the 1527 translation that a very old codex provided by the Church of Constance that agreed with the Greek manuscripts that he had consulted in Romans 16:7. For the next 250 years, variations of the Textus Receptus were the standard Greek sources of the Bible.

    Martin Luther, the Reformer, was a contemporary of Erasmus and said that women had wide hips. God created them that way because they belonged at home. Luther ignored Erasmus’s Greek translation and chose the male name, “den Juniam”. Later, Luther embellished this view in his letters to the Romans by claiming that Romans 16:7 said, “Greet Andronicus and Junias of the Junian Family, men of note among the apostles.24

    The effect of Luther’s mistaken reading of Junia’s name multiplied over time. John Thorley, British scholar, says that subsequent translations of Romans leaned on the masculine interpretation of Junia’s name because of Luther’s influence, which is why the male name cropped up again in English translations in the 1800’s.25

    Here is what apparently caused Junia’s disappearance during modern times. Publishers of standardized Greek texts that were used by ministers and scholars included the female name from 1898 to 1920. In 1927, the International Nestle Translation committee arbitrarily changed it to a man’s name, Junias, with no notes of explanation. The men suffered from textual deafness. They could not believe that a woman could have been an apostle.

    The text of 1 Timothy 2:12 is often used to bar women from public ministry because they are supposedly more easily deceived than men and susceptible to false teaching. Yet, in Romans 5, Paul says that it was Adam. He blames Adam for the fall in the Garden and says that sin entered the world through one man. He goes on to explain that Adam gets the blame even though Eve sinned first because Eve was deceived but Adam was not deceived. He had been forewarned and still chose to do wrong.

    How could Paul be disbarring women from ministry in 1 Timothy when he openly commends Lois and Eunice for teaching Timothy? Men of quality are not threatened by women of equality.

    Flawed women are loved by a flawless God who puts them up front. Flawed men are loved by a flawless God and He puts them up front. Men have been guilty of prooftexting and using the scripture to “Bible Belt”, “Jesus Jam”, and as a “Paper Pope” to pound women into the pavement.

    I have noticed that some men refuse to face the truth and become Harry Houdinis of the mind, mental escape artists and are constructing a sui generis interpretation of Romans 16:7 that fits their preconceived bias against women and violates all known rules of Greek grammar. It seems that Giles is still with us.


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    Michael,
    I appreciate where you’re coming from — I suspect that most of us have held to your position at one point or another. I don’t know many Bible believing egalitarians who weren’t previously complementarians, as complementarianism is what is commonly taught in Bible-believing churches.

    As one who holds to the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture, and has always been part of churches that teach that (and would not want to be part of a church that didn’t), I was always led to believe that it was impossible to be anything other than complementarian and be true to the Bible. It took a lot of time and study, and a willingness to say, “What if the Bible actually teaches something else than I’ve been taught and that a surface reading might lead me to believe?” before my views shifted.

    But I’d encourage you to read, study, and pray about what conservative, inerrantist, devoted followers of Christ who are egalitarian have to say about the passages most commonly used to promote the complementarian viewpoint. You might be surprised at what you’d learn. You might not change your views as I did, but at least you’d be able to see that it is possible to be fully committed to the truth of Scripture and not accept the complementarian perspective.

    The meaning of kephale would be a good place to start. I recommend that you don’t just accept what complementarians say it means (which is going to include many, but not all, lexicons and dictionaries); rather, spend some time looking at the writings of those who hold to the egalitarian perspective, who have gone back to both biblical and secular source material and done comprehensive exegetical studies.

    Oh, and by the way, the Greek for “husband of one wife” is “mias gunaikos andra (more literally “man of one woman”), and interpreters have proposed a variety of possible meanings. There’s nothing specific to the Greek that would prove that it refers to polygamy.

    If Lydia (a dear friend of mine) has anything on her shoulder, I think it is simply the burdens that are constantly being placed there by those who would attempt to hold her back in service in God’s kingdom. She’s always having to brush that off. 🙂


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    This was in a comment on that blog…because Piper and Grudem were teaching that Junia was male and using Epiphanius as their source which was totally refuted by scholarship:

    “Grudem and Piper are squirming like a worm in hot ashes for they have no answer to the Greek of Romans 16:7 or to the historical facts that Junia was a female apostle. They cannot refute or dispute Eldon Jay Epp, and they themselves have disowned the Epiphanius reference slouching away in defeat. However, they continue to teach all male leadership so they prefer the tradition of men rather than the inspired timeless truth of God’s Word.”

    1 John Piper and Wayne Grudem. “An Overview of Central Concerns” in Recovering Biblical Manhood. (Crossway: Wheaton, Ill., 1991), pp. 79-80 and 479.


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    I don’t know why my screen name got a “q” at the end of it … you can call me Junkster, or Junk, or even “Tom” (as those outside of cyberspace are prone to do)


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    The “q” at the end of Junkster stands for “cute”. 🙂


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    Junkster
    I am sure that you are adorable but I thought the q stood for one who is a member of the Continuum or quixotic or Quasimodo or perhaps quirky or do all apply?


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    Lydia

    That was an excellent comment. I would like to use it sometime when I hold my breath and do a post on women and the church. You are so well versed in this matter. I need to read a whole bunch more to get to where you are.


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    Lydia

    What does sui generis mean?


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    Perhaps the Quasimodo one applies. Definitely quirky. It would be nice to have the powers of Q (though I’d be even more dangerous than he was). I’ll let you decide on quixotic. 🙂


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    Adam’s rib.


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    on one’s own initiative (as when a judge issues an order without having a motion before the court asking for one).


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    Michael wrote: “I know that Titus 2:5 says that women are to be workers at home, but that might be in contrast to being idle or an idle gossiper at home, as is instructed somewhere else”

    Here is a big problem with proof texting because the above would mean that Joanna was in sin and that sin was affirmed by Jesus Christ, Himself. Does Paul contradict what Jesus allowed? Women were helping to support Him financially. And we know at least one of them was married and off traveling around with Jesus! Not keeping the home. Nor was Peter providing for his own family while off with Jesus, either. So what are to we to make of such things since another text says a man who does not provide for his own family is worse than an infidel.

    perhaps we have idolized a lifestyle that is NOT commanded in the New Covenant?

    “Soon afterwards [Jesus] went on through cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. The twelve were with him, as well as some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Herod’s steward Chuza, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their resources (Luke 8:1-3, NRSV).


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    The ONLY place “authority” is clearly described in marriage is in 1 Corin 7 and unfortuantly for the comps, it is mutual authority.


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    Isn’t it nice to know a lawyer who knows this stuff? :o)

    After my support of comp doctrine for so long and seeing the obvious inconsistencies of proof texting and behavior of those who taught it.. over so many years and remembering the Priesthood of believer that was drilled into my head, I knew I had to educate myself.

    This is serious business. And it is being elevated as primary salvic doctrine by many.

    Can you imagine how delighted Satan is that over 1/2 of all believers are being taught to consider gender before they teach the Gospel to anyone reqardless of gender?


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    Considering your excellent comment, I thought it was the start of Q.E.D. :o)


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    Micheal,

    this same phrase was found by archeologists on the graves of women in Ephesus. It’s meaning is more in line with “Faithful Spouse”.


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    Thanks, Junster for what you wrote earlier. You are right, though. There are few places comfortable for conservative, orthodox, believers in inerrancy that are egal leaning. We do not fit the either/or mold. Which is plastic fish categories, anyway.

    Like dee and deb, I do not like the word, egal at all. But use it for convenience. A believer is to have the indwelling Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ as their authority. (and the civil authorities) but no mere human is her authority in marriage or the Body.

    I have a ton of comp friends. Many of them acknowledge some of the points but still think it is a big sin to believe in mutual submission as Eph 5 teaches. It is amazing how well brainwashing works that verse 21 is so ignored.

    Recently, a dear comp friend of mine repented for even using the word “complimentarian” to describe herself because of all the errant doctrine (like ESS) and bad behavior associated with it. Read her repentance blog post:

    http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/2010/07/as-christian-women-unite-for-freedom.html

    She will be at the Seneca Falls 2 Conference and has written the Afterward to “Quivering Daughters” by Hillary McFarland.


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    There is an organization of conservatives “Christians for Biblical Equality” that publishes an academic journal “The Priscilla Papers” on the issue, as well as a more popular magazine. They have a statement of faith that most conservative Christians will find acceptable. I recommend the organization to any who find complementarianism difficult. Their website is http://www.cbeinternational.org/.


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    Michael wrote: “I know that Titus 2:5 says that women are to be workers at home, but that might be in contrast to being idle or an idle gossiper at home, as is instructed somewhere else”

    “Perhaps we have idolized a lifestyle that is NOT commanded in the New Covenant?”

    Lydia, that is PRECISELY it!

    What complementarian extremists do is read into a select few texts THEIR OWN culturally contrived, American, middle-class, suburbanite preconceived notions! They automatically associate “workers at home” to mean June Cleaver! They read into Titus 2 an entire set of rules, regulations, and schedules which simply are not there!

    The most annoying thing is when they automatically associate any Biblical challenge to their position to mean one is anti-homemaker, anti-mothering, or even anti-submission, which is NOT the case at all.

    What’s worse, is when this type of judgmentalism leads to finger pointing and gossip about women or couples who don’t exactly fit their idealized “mold” — the very breed of gossip Titus 2 warns against!


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    Arce:

    A court acts “sua sponte” when it does something on its own.

    “Sui generis” means of its own kind or class or peculiar.


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    If the argument for Junia being a woman is as strong as argued here, does anyone have a suggestion as to why so many still believe that women are not to serve as bishop, pastor or elder. If Dr. Metzger (sp?), for example, believed that Junia was a woman, did he also believe that women were to be bishops or elders, or was there some other passage that he looked to in deciding that question.

    I would be interested in hearing anyone’s thoughts.


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    It could be one of two things:

    1) They might not believe women should serve in those ways the same way for centuries, many Christians saw no problem with slavery or racial segregation. Sometimes the traditions of men will overpower Biblical truth.

    Reactionary complementarians silence these challenges and halt honest discourse by perpetuating lies and false dilemmas such as, “Well if you’re going to let a woman do this or that, you might as well let a homosexual do this and that.” — Which is not the case at all.

    2) Junia was noted as an apostle, but I believe it is fair to suggest that there clearly is a distinction between women holding certain roles of prominence, and women actually being “ordained” pastors…

    As the undermuchgrace blogger so aptly put it:

    “I embrace male headship in home and church as a very functional consideration much like how the theological term of economy is understood, but I do not believe that women have so many of the tight restrictions that complementarian doctrine has placed upon them.”

    “…I am going to stand with and support my fellow Believers in Orlando next weekend in order to help the Church figure out how to help women reclaim what God has afforded to them but has been wrongfully denied them by the traditions of men.”


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    Thanks for the correction.


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    “Are you one who thinks women can compete at the same level athletically, as well? I’m referring to the rule, not the exception.”

    I am. I have for many years competed on a boys/mens baseball team and was not the worst nor the weakest. Men may be naturally stronger, but I’ll be honest, I had more wit then most guys. Play smart, play hard, and I’d say we are equal. Not that I would get into a weight lifting competition with any of them…


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    “2) Junia was noted as an apostle, but I believe it is fair to suggest that there clearly is a distinction between women holding certain roles of prominence, and women actually being “ordained” pastors…”

    Is our concept of “ordination” a tradition or biblical teaching? Is there a model of ordaining “pastors” in the NT? Honest questions. Because we have systemized most of the NT model which is really an informal organism that is Holy Spirit led.

    We have org charts with titles. They had functions.


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    I have a question for you all. Who do you believe, for the most part, is “winning” the gender roles debate in most conservative circles of the American church? Are the comp-extremists really that successful? On the blogosphere, it would seem that way, but in real life–do most members of congregations buy into it and apply it?


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    Radiance,
    I can’t speak for evangelicalism as a whole, but what I see around me in general is that most conservative believers would say that only men are supposed to be pastors/elders, but they don’t feel there are any significant restrictions on women in ministry other than that. And they believe that husbands are the head of the household, but in practical terms husbands and wives live as partners and make major decisions together.

    I think that full-blown complementarianism is only practiced by a minority, mostly people who are in some sort of “ministry” setting (pastors, staff members, seminary profs, etc.). I also think that, while most of the people in the pews would not affirm full-blown egalitarianism (since it is contrary to what they’ve always been taught), they lives their lives more like egals than comps, both in church functions (though not “offices”) and in family “roles”.

    Over time I think the egal viewpoint will be considered more mainstream in evangelicalism, and become seen as more of a secondary or tertiary issue. Except in SB circles, since they have now codified the comp position as part of the BFM and are more committed to it in their seminaries than ever.

    But I’m not a prophet nor the son of a prophet, and I can only speak to what I see in my immediate surroundings (family, friends, local churches, and the few blogs I follow).

    How would you answer your own question?


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    Radiance and Lydia and Arce
    Hear (and here) is why I am leaning to being neither instead of either. I believe that we are all equal in our standing before God.
    I believe that we all complement each other but do not believe that necessarily means specific roles. I believe that women’s were given a brain and that God gives women as much insight into the Scripture as men. He also gave some of us (me included) a passion for theology. Why give me the passion for His Words and then shut me up?

    But Christ chose a different posture in which He said that the last would be first and the first would be last. He demonstrated a humble servant like attitude to all. It is my opinion that we should all (men and women) try to outdo each other as servants. I think the modern church has set up hierarchies instead of a servant model. It irritates me that so many church leaders have set up hierarchies and put themselves at the top.

    I do believe that women can, and should be, in leadership and find that it is that those who discount the role of women do so out of a selfish ambition to be “in charge.”


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    Dee,

    Well-stated! When I stand before Almighty God and give an account for my life, I want to tell Him that I did my best to use the gifts He gave me to glorify Him. I will NOT be intimidated by the comps and patriarchs who want me to ignore the prompting of the Holy Spirit in my life.


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    “I have a question for you all. Who do you believe, for the most part, is “winning” the gender roles debate in most conservative circles of the American church?”

    According to Russell Moore, Dean at SBTS, the egals are winning because comps are wimps and need to be more Patriarchal. In other words, the comps are too egal.

    http://www.thedivineconspiracy.org/Z5209O.pdf

    The link is to an article Moore originally wrote for the Henry Institute a few years back.


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    Radiance, the true problem is the inordinate amount of time that is spent on this subject in our churches and para church organizations. Many people are therefore focused more on their spouses and the rules. roles and formulas of comp life than they are on Christ. Many have elevated this to a salvic dcotrine.

    This of the Talmudic teachings that must arise from this doctrine: At what age are boys, men and women should not teach them? Why are women missionaries allowed to teach illiterate men on the mission field and that is not unbiblical? (Elisabeth Eliott did this and is a big comp promoter. How can she justify this?) The Talmudic rules are endless due to this errant doctrine.

    CBMW is nothing but Talmudic teaching. Even to the point they speculated in an article I read a while back that females will be
    submitting to males in heaven! I kid you not. (This is an outgrowth of the ESS errancy. And CBMW reads more Mormon than Christian these days.)

    They literally think that focus on their spouse and the comp rules of women teaching men is a virtue of Christianity. Many have made an idol of family and this doctrine. Before you blow a gasket, do not go the other way and think I am saying that family is not important. It is,but Christ is MORE important. Jesus told us this. The old covenant was be fruitful and multiply but the NC is ‘go and make disciples’.

    What should I be teaching my daughter? The one anothers that apply to us all and mutual submission of believers? Or submit to her husband only? Should I teach her to love and follow Jesus Christ above all or focus on her husband as her spiritual leader?

    I’ll stick with Jesus instead of a human. He left us with the BEST TEACHER yet we keep looking to man. I think that mocks the Holy Spirit.


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    Well, my congregation is exactly how you described…and I attend a Presbyterian (PCA) church.

    That being said, I’ve been to bigger churches, not of the PCA –but those which identify as Reformed, and notice the overwhelming “white men in suits” patriarchical vibe, while women are separated to the side in “Titus 2” centered studies and ministries, which have a very shallow vibe.

    * I just wanted to distinguish between “online hype” and how things are actually playing out in reality.

    Over the internet, I visit sites such as Desiring God, CBMW, Together for the Gospel, and the latest blogs by Albert Mohler and Mark Driscoll-> and I hear constant talk of marriage, feminism bashing, and “the manhood crisis.” I wanted to know how much influence their constant contributions to thinking on this issue have actually had in shaping lives of most believers and how they approach marriage.

    Mark Driscoll, for example, has well over 60,000 followers on Twitter and his sermons are often the most downloaded thing on I-tunes!

    His website states: “The Resurgence is a reformed, complementarian, missional movement that trains missional leaders to serve the Church to transform cultures for Christ.”

    So for many of these leaders, complementarianism is an issue of first priority, inseparable from the “Reformed” profession.

    In terms of the most tech-savvy sites geared towards Reformed women, the vast majority of them have “only homemakers allowed” overtones and “frilly/flowery” vibe about them: there’s the Mahaney ladies’ “GirlTalk” blog, there’s Mary Kassian’s “Girls Gone Wise” and there’s Nancy Leigh Demoss’ “TRUE WOMANHOOD” blog and conference.

    I find these websites intriguing, but sometimes I worry I get carried away into thinking they serve as an accurate reflection of “the state of women” in the church more than they actually do.


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    I totally agree with you Lydia and I find my views far more in line with the “Christians for Biblical Equality” overall–even though I am not exactly calling for women to be pastors and whatnot. I subscribe to their newsletter and even look forward to buying/reading the literature they promote.

    I do not approve of the tone the CBMW has set and I do not appreciate the idolatry of “roles” they promote, which seems far more culturally grounded than Biblical. I also not like the fear-mongering they promote about believers expressing even the SLIGHTEST dissent–as if all of us are “militant feminists” simply for challenging a few points of their thinking.

    I just wanted to analyze how much influence the CBMW actually has beyond the internet.


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    Lydia

    I have been chuckling all weekend about how you could carry Russell Moore over your shoulders. In fact, when I was supposed to be in prayer at church, I had to bite me lip not to laugh as I envisioned Moore yelling “Put me down, I am a patriarch!”

    My oldest daughter is a firefighter. She is 5/4″ and weighs about 125. She had to rain up to be able to carry a person who weighs 160 out of a burning building. She can do it. It might startle a few patriarchs out there!


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    I guess at the moment then, my greatest problem with the Reformed community is the lack of prominent, public female leaders, speakers, and thinkers. They don’t have to be “pastors,” but why do only MEN get to speak at conferences such as “Together 4 the Gospel?” Why is it that only MEN are allowed to attend annual “General Assembly” meet-ups, where key decisions are made with regard to the direction of their prospective denominations? Why is it only MEN who are writing on subjects such as Reformed theology, church history, and culture?

    Why is that the women’s voices are only relegated to the subject of Titus 2 revivals and feminism bashing? It seems these days the only way for women to have a voice is only if they have “expertise” on the subject of “Biblical Womanhood.”

    Why is that we aren’t considered valuable assets and contributors to the OVERALL theological, intellectual, and scholarly discourse?


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    I notice too, ther’s a lingo that surrounds and characterizes these male-dominated settings. Speakers and pastors constantly make statements like “I enjoy the privilege to get to speak with these MEN,” or to “be around like-minded MEN” or “to study under great MEN of God such as…” —

    There’s this overwhelmingly constant referal to themselves and to their events as “MEN” events. So it’s very clear to me, that that’s part of their appeal!


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    One more thing, it’s not that there’s a problem with brothers-in-Christ fellowshipping at all…but why can’t they make fraternities of “male-geared” events and conferences on “male-specific” subjects such as Fatherhood, and Marriage from a Husband’s perspective?

    Yet the “women-geared” conferences are only on such things!

    I don’t appreciate that only MEN are considered the torch-bearers and passers of the “general” subjects like theology and the very GOSPEL itself!


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    Radiance

    I couldn’t agree more. It really irks me that women have only women’s based conferences and never in depth theological lectures. It’s funny. At Southwestern Baptist Theological they now offer a BS in homemaking. They learn how to cook and set a table. I am NOT exaggerating. I wonder where the BS degree is in male home participation. For example-how to change the oil in a care, babysitting for you wife 101, etc. They have a very low view on women and it irks me. Have you read the Sheri Klouda story? Click on it under out categories. It will raise hackles.


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    Radiance

    Pete Briscoe asked me to teach on the Reformation. Along the way, I developed a plan to teach church history and did so at his church. It irritates me that there are men who know a whole lot less than I do on the subject yet some of these Calvinistas would not let me teach them on history. What, pray tell, would the Almighty find offensive if I taught about Wilberforce and his fight to end slavery? Also, why did He give me such an interest if I shouldn’t talk about it? There is something wrong about this whole system.Thankfully I am in a church that is OK with stuff.They just presented the new deacon board and it is made up of men and women.


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    Radiance and Lydia

    BTW, old Ed Young Jr. would have a lot to learn from the two of you.


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    Junkster:

    Thanks for your comments. I choose not to use terms like comp..and egal..Those seems very boxy and confining, kind of locking people into one or the other camp. I’m in neither. I’ll continue studying, as I always have, and will remain open to biblical ideas. I confessed that I still have questions regarding some of these passages. But, rest assured, if there are burdens being placed on shoulders, I’m not one who is doing that. I appreciate women’s influence in the church greatly.


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    The exception would not be a good indicator of the rule.


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    Radiance:

    Interesting that you mentioned the PCA. Didn’t the PCA essentially put Walker Springs Presbyterian Church in Knoxville, TN on trial for having a woman speaker on a Sunday morning service? I seem to recall that. Do you remember or know anything about that at all. I think they are EPC now.

    Also, Tim Keller in NYC at Redeemer (I think) has been very successful in Manhattan reaching that culture. I think that he is PCA. Do they hold to the egal or comp position? Do you know.

    Finally, I only saw one attempted answer to my earlier question about Dr. Metzger (sp?) and whether he still held to the view that bishops or elders should be been but that Junia was a female. Only one person responded and that was a guess.

    Does anyone know what Dr. Metzger or others like him (hold that Junia was a female apostle, but still see that only men should be bishops or elders) base their thinking on? Dr. Metzger was cited above in an article that was interesting on the question of Junia. I did not know Dr. Metzger, but believe I have read some of his work over the years. The author of that article seemed to give his opinion great weight. Does anyone know the answer to this question?

    Thanks.


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    Radiance:

    I have no idea who is “winning” this discussion.

    In the SBC there is really no formal discussion going on.

    In the PCA, I suspect it is the same.

    In the American Baptist churches, I believe the egal position is the only game in town, but I don’t know if American Baptists are really considered evangelicals.

    I don’t know about E-free.

    I suspect that Bible churches are predominantly comp. I believe that DTS is comp.

    The evangelicals in the north are more egal. I don’t know about all the disparate Baptist groups up North. I think that Trinity is very strong on that.

    Charismatics allow women to speak and pastor and have done so for many years.

    Also, it’s one thing to consider the issue in the academic setting vs. the practice of the churches.

    Even the CBF, which is clearly egal, does not have a lot of churches calling women pastors, though I am sure many of their churches have a mix of deacons or committee members.

    There is a lot of discussion in those circles on this issue. And who is “winning” depends on whom you talk to.

    I know some CBF guys who went to Mercer and are now getting their PhDs. They are upset because it is harder for them to find a place of ministry because of so much attention going to female candidates.

    But then on the other side, the CBF just had something like “Have a woman speak in your pulpit month” or something in Feb. They did this to try and prompt churches to give women a chance to speak.

    Some of the women in that movement are upset that while intellectually everyone in the CBF agrees with the egal position, in practice, not many women are being called to pastor. They argue that churches still prefer to have a male in the pastor role. Some of the women are angry and feel like all the egal stuff is just talk.

    Who knows?


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    I concur with Junkster’s assessment. Based on my research and experience, he is correct.


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    Radiance, Their influence is more than that. They are the go to people for pastors and teachers of many denominations even though they are housed at SBTS.

    They are more culture warriors than they are anything else.


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    Loui…err anonymous, why don’t you google Metzger and see for yourself? I have no idea and am not sure why whether he is egal or not has any bearing on his scholarship about Junia. There is tons of cognitive dissonance out there.

    As a matter of fact, I know one prof at an SBC seminary who knows the comp position is pure hogwash but would never in a million years go public with that thought. There would be no job. Remember Paul Debusman? He had been there for 30+ years, dared to disagree with Mohler and lost his retirement over it!


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    Lydia,

    Glad you provided the above link. I read this article months before we began The Wartburg Watch. I highly encourage everyone to read it. Pay close attention to how Moore esteems C.J. Mahaney and the SGM “family of churches”. And remember, this article was written before any of the negative stuff was revealed.


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    anonymous:

    I briefly heard about some fuss being made over a woman speaker, but didn’t get all the details. It must have been Walker Springs! That’s horrible…I am just thankful that the leading members of *MY* congregation do not reflect the worst elements of “the establishment.”

    I believe Keller is like myself, a non-fundamentalist, complementarian-leaner who believes in expanding roles for women in the church and in ministry. If I’m not mistaken, he is at the forefront for pushing for female deaconesses at the PCA General Assembly meetings.

    I believe people such as Keller essentially reflect Dr. Metzger’s understanding of the issue as well.


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    Thanks so much to everyone who contributed to a wonderful discussion! I have just arrived home from the beach and did the best I could to follow the comments on my Blackberry. I have learned so much from all of you.


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    In response to anonymous’s second post:

    Thank you for breaking down the essential “state” of the discussion going on in various conservative denominations.

    While I am all for loosening up restrictions on women, I don’t believe there needs to be some sort of affirmative-action flavored mentality that we need to have things like “females at the pulpit” just for the sake of having females at the pulpit. Then we risk promoting a reverse sense of awkwardness and artificiality where everyone becomes overly self-conscious about “whether there is a woman at the helm” or “whether there are enough women in the mix” — when really we should just encourage an environment where both men and women *NATURALLY* participate together and where individuals considered for leadership positions should be measured on the basis of their qualifications and gifts, not their sex.

    All I am hoping for is just a general, loosened-up mentality with regard to gender period. I suppose one of the reasons why I personally am not “fiercely” egalitarian is because I have been blessed with having pastors who are very respectful of women, who do not promote an “all boys club” mentality and who aren’t obsessing over things like “oh no, a woman’s teaching men theology!” I have also benefitted from mixed Bible studies, and have even experienced “women’s” Bible studies that were challenging and stimulating, rather than centered on a shallow and narrow Titus 2-based focus.

    What I do not appreciate, is that these are the exceptions and not the rule, and that the “public” face of the Reformed movement does not reflect the realities of many much smaller congregations. I worry that if enough of the “big-name” personalities expand their influence, dominate intra-denominational discussion, and have their way, more and more of the congregations will feel *pressured* to follow suit — and in the wrong direction.

    I am pleased that open-minded, forward-thinking figures such as Tim Keller, at the very least, have a good amount of influence in the PCA. Keller seems to strike that balance of offering his voice without seeking to become “celebrified.” God has really blessed his ministry, which has reached a lot of “unlikely” converts in the thick of New York City!


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    Just a few thoughts:

    -There is no “sacred” furniture so drawing the line about a woman in the pulpit, makes no sense when looking at the NT model of ekklesia. Are we sure Lydia never spoke of or taught spiritual things in her home…the first church in Europe?

    -the problem with the comp position is exactly about where to draw the line. Some say no women pastors but “pastor” as we know it did not exist in the NT model. It is a shepherding function and there could be quite a few in the Body. It is a spiritual gift. It was not one guy who spoke to the assembly week after week. We invented that along with our org charts for the system we created. It is not the living organism that Jesus Christ intended.

    -The other problem with no women preaching to men is that women did prophesy in both the OT and NT. Some want to redefine preaching but they will have to diss the Puritans to do so. (Of course, the Puritans never dreamed of women preaching to men)

    -The comps are really concerned with authority. But there is no real human authority in the Body except Jesus Christ. The overseer function is about caring for souls. They are more like point men than generals.

    If it were an authority over others position then all the Epistles would have been written to the local church authorities because some of them give specific instructions for dealing with problems or situations.

    -The entire problem stems on this issue of authority. This is where our translations get us into trouble with proof texting. Hebrews 13:17 is a horrible translation and I would encourage everyone to study it in the Greek.

    -The bigger problem is that modern day elders/pastors want followers. People are not maturing spiritually they are following humans instead. Jesus Christ sent the Best Teacher who will teach anyone who sincerely seeks: The Holy Spirit. So, this idea of being under authority in the Body is quite nefarious when you consider what it costs in being led by the Holy Spirit as one of the priesthood.

    -The single biggest problem we have is a lack of understanding of the function of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the believers life. This is such a shame and eternally dangerous.


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    “I couldn’t agree more. It really irks me that women have only women’s based conferences and never in depth theological lectures.” ~ dee

    Well stated. I don’t know why this already isn’t so? It’s unBiblical when you consider the subjects Moses, the prophets, Jesus and Paul spent THE VAST MAJORITY of their time covering when addressing both men AND women!

    Zoning in on subjects such as “Waiting for ‘Mr. Right’ from a ‘godly’ perspective” or “How to glorify God in my singleness” or “Homemaking 101” or “Evil Feminists” can end up seeming rather indulgent. Narrowing the focus of our faith through such lenses promotes such a hopelessly parochial and provincial view of life and the world, which does little to distinguish us from our Mormon or unbelieving counterparts. (The latter who often approach the questions of this life with far more depth!)

    Not only that, but it ultimately promotes an air of self-righteousness and a sense of petty victimhood. The focus ultimately ends up being about achieving “self-validation” in our “mean and cruel” culture of “godless feminists,” who get “all the praise.”

    Even the aesthetics of some of these “women’s ministry” websites bother me: the stereotypically “feminine” background designs of heart shapes, flowers, and frills, the perky photography, etc…There’s nothing wrong about all of this. I am sure GOD blesses and honors these types of ministries, which probably edify a great deal of many women…

    But to me, they promote a false picture of the kind of Christianity Jesus and his followers demonstrated. Rick Frueh, put it in his critique of American Evangelicalism:

    “Instead of a redemptive slaughterhouse, we have become a museum for the approval of the righteous…We spend much energy to project an image of wholeness and perfection, believing that is what attracts sinners. But most times that is exactly what drives sinners away…”

    We have hung drapes of morality that keeps the light of redemption from shining through and opening the hearts of the lost. Many people feel the necessity to get cleaned up before they can even consider becoming a believing follower of Jesus Christ, and we have encouraged that perception by the clean and pristine image projected by our spiritual communities. Sinners, demonstrative and open sinners, were drawn to Christ in His incarnation, and yet we continue to be aloof and insulated in our micro-communities of conservatism, moral causes, and our assembly lines to church membership.

    But the process of redemption has always been messy. Think on the cross and see the gruesome visage and scarlet body, hanging and writhing in agony over the soiled landscape beneath this figure draped in horror. There is nothing antiseptic here, nothing that presents a neat, little package waiting to be opened beneath Rockwell’s Christmas tree.”

    ___________________

    What some Evangelicals have done, is merely “Christianized” the OPRAH phenomenon.

    I believe by emphasizing things like serious study of the Word, investigating theology, and boldly engaging the culture while navigating through all the beautiful yet often painful complexities of our fallen world–> then so many women won’t feel dependent on the next conference or the latest Christian Oprah to help them feel better about their lives!

    Our minds and hearts would be so invested and focused on BIGGER and BETTER things and realities. Changing our focus would help make us stronger CHRISTIANS and therefore better wives, better mothers, better neighbors, better humanitarians, better evangelists, better scholars, better professionals, BETTER WOMEN.


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    Radiance, you would benefit from Carolyn Custis James,another “comp” who is also a theologian. Her books, When Life and Beliefs Collide and her “Gospel of Ruth” are excellent.

    Years ago, I interacted with Frueh on Slice and found he was very patriarchal. To the point that he chided some women for daring to “teach” on blogs. I still agree with his quote.


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    My daughter has been in NYC this summer with a Campus Crusade for Christ summer project. She has attended Tim Keller’s church a couple of times (which she explained meets on the campus of Hunter College) and has thoroughly enjoyed Keller’s sermons.


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    Just wanted to share this link which shows that Redeemer Presbyterian Church (Tim Keller) has both deacons and deaconesses.

    http://www.redeemer.com/care/diaconate/


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    Lydia and Radiance

    I was blessed to teach at Pete Briscoe’s church, Bent Tree Bible Church. Pete was hired with the understanding that he would not “push” the women’s issue in terms of the elders. He was wise to hire Joanne Hummel who received her degree from DTS. She started as the head of women’s ministries. He then put her in charge of the Stephen Ministry. She was universally loved and respected for her knowledge by both men and women. During that same time, he asked me to begin teaching, which after a minor keffluffle, was not only accepted but my class was very well attended by both men and women.

    After we made the decision to move back to North Carolina, Pete quietly changed Joanne’s title to Pastor of Women and Stephen Ministry. She was so well loved that he began to let her occasionally teach in the pulpit. She is such an awesome teacher that, by this point, no one batted an eye (well, maybe a few but that is to be expected). To this day she continues to fill in in the pulpit. Interestingly this fact has not been a big deal in the news. I believe it is because of Pete’s impeccable evangelical credentials along with his well-known and beloved parents, Jill and Stuart. I also believe that Pete was patient and did things slowly and let the church get used to the women

    Down the street at Irving Bible Church, which was Chuck Swindoll’s first pulpit, Andy McQuitty did the same thing with Jackie Rose, in much the same way that Pete did. I have met Jackie and respect her enormously. However, the brouhaha was loud and furious. I believe that Pete was somewhat protected by his name. But, McQuitty has stood firm.

    Both of these pastors are conservative evangelicals who happen to believe that the Bible gives latitude in the area of the role of women. Pete grew up under a strong, gifted mother who is an incredible speaker. One of the rare times I saw Pete cry was when he recounted how, when his mother spoke, I believe at DTS, some men got up and walked out. This same thing happened to Jill’s friend, Anne Graham Lotz. Pete recounted, from the pulpit, all the things his mother had done in her life and how she was deserving of respect. Listening, I don’t think I was ever angrier at a group of self-assured, disrespectful men in my life. Even if they disagreed, they could have quietly not attended or listened anyway.DTS has trained a bunch of snots who will either grow up and repent or go on to major on the minors.

    I am grateful for men like Pete Briscoe who are quietly changing the role of women within the church. Although I wanted to move back to my beloved North Carolina, the hardest thing I had to do was say good-bye to Pete. The last words he said to me were, “Don’t let anyone ever tell you that you can’t teach.” What a wonderful guy!!! Love you, Pete!


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    Lydia

    I have heard rumors that Mohler, the picture of “hale, hearty and well-met” on the outside world, is somewhat of a tyrant at SBTS and has hurt many a person on his way to Reformed stardom within the Calvinistas. I have been told that there are many “Debusmans” along the way.
    Here is my question. Does he, and his sycophants, really think that, if they get every little verse down pat to fit within the stringent Calvinistic worldview, that the world will fall to their knees and follow Christ? I think this crowd is missing the “make disciples of every nation” command and replacing it with “make Calvinists of every man”.


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    Lydia:

    You are right on when you say that the problem for comps is where to draw the line.

    I am comp. I do see a distinction in roles, but the lines go in lots of directions. I Tim 3 (I think) is probably the cleanest way to go for comps. But speaking and lot of other issues are murky.

    Deb, I haven’t checked out the website. We have deacons and deaconesses. But in the PCA, the role that we should look at is elder, not deacon. I don’t think that Redeemer has women elders. I am not sure of that, but it would surprise me, being PCA and all.


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    Dee,

    Thank you for such a great compliment. Sometimes I feel like I come across harsh, so to say I’m not threatening is very much appreciated. I guess I mirror the attitude of those to whom I’m responding, and I detect in you an attitude of humility and openness.

    I am open to deepening my study of this topic. I’ve never really done an exhaustive study on this, so I can’t speak with authority on it.


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    Dee,

    I have seen overly submissive wives and believe that they do their husbands a great disservice. My wife has challenged me many times and I’m the better man for it. God has certainly brought her into my life to instigate change in my life, and I’ve needed to change. So those women who overly trust and submit do not do their husbands a favor.

    (As I’m writing this I am questioning whether or not those reading might think I’m some limp-wristed wuss. I’m not. I played football at Baylor and was an All-Metro wide receiver in Dallas/Ft Worth in the late 70’s.)

    The same applies to church. Any pastor or leader that does not take to heart the correction and prophetic exhortations of men and women in the church are doing themselves no favors. I think, at the very least, that a council of godly, smart, wise, and mature women would be something any church would greatly benefit from.

    You know, Dee, I think part of our problem here in the U.S. is that we organize like a corporation and politics and power are way to prevalent. It is all becomes about power and money and control. When you have a guy who’s on salary, he wants control to protect his job. He has to please too many people for fear that he might lose his job. God never intended that. Because of these politics, women take the brunt. Remove the money from the equation, the politics and need for approval leaves, the playing field is leveled and the position of women rises.

    Those a just a few thoughts off the top of my head.


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    Radiance,

    Good comments and it’s great to be brought back to what is really important. I agree with you. While John is in the Bible, so is Timothy and Titus and should not be diminished because something else is more important. Sharing the gospel and living out the character of Christ is not mutually exclusive with topics or the administration and order of the church.

    Lastly, regarding everyone selling all their possessions and sharing everything, this passage is certainly historical, but not necessarily instructional. It doesn’t tell us that we should do that. The result was that they lost power and were greatly persecuted and poor after that. If they had kept their possessions and shared, they might have helped more people.


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    Lydia,

    I hope you are not trying to put me into one camp or the other. I’ve never even heard of the word, “complementarianism,” until I read this blog. Sometimes, when someone is passionate about an issue, there can be a hypersensitivity toward any that remotely sounds like a contradiction to their beliefs.

    I agree with much of what you’re saying. I particularly agree with your comments regarding Genesis. God obviously deems desire for your husband as not a good thing, in the sense that sometimes women look to their husbands to satisfy them and meet their needs. No husband can completely do this, only God can. So it becomes a curse for the woman and the man.

    I also agree with the comments about submit one to another, which we do in our marriage and I also encourage in the church.

    I remain open to more convincing biblical evidence regarding leadership of women in the church. I certainly agree that in the Southern Baptist dogma I’ve heard, they go way too far in diminishing the influence women rightly should have in the church.


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    Junkster, Lydia, others,

    I’k like to read your thoughts regarding where you think authority does exist. Does the Father have authority regarding Jesus? Does Jesus have authority over man? over Satan? Does a boss have authority over an employee? Does a parent have authority over children? Do believers have authority over the sprit world, demons and angels? I look forward to your response.


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    Michael,

    May I ask, why all the questions?

    You wrote (in another comment):
    “I’ve never even heard of the word, “complementarianism,” until I read this blog.”

    Michael, please allow me to explain this to you as gently as possible. If you are just now hearing the word “complementarianism” then you have A LOT of catching up to do. Lydia knows far more about this term than we here at TWW do, and I must say that I have learned quite a bit about complementarianism over the last several years.

    One resource that will help you understand what is meant by “complementarianism” is the Council on Bibilical Manhood and Womanhood website. Please peruse it as Lydia, Dee, and I have to gain an understanding of this concept. Here’s the link: http://www.cbmw.org

    You asked:
    “Does the Father have authority regarding Jesus?”

    Have you ever heard of the “Eternal Subordination of the Father (God) to the Son (Jesus)” (aka ESS)? To discover more about this doctrine which I consider to be heresy, check out the five part series on the CBMW website. Here’s the link to Part One:

    http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Eternal-Subordination-of-the-Son-The-Basics-Part-I

    The so-called complementarians affiliated with CBMW (who are in reality patriarchs), believe that women will always be subordinate to men in eternity since God the Father is superior to God the Son.

    Sounds like I need to write a blog post soon explaining these terms for our readers who may be new to The Wartburg Watch.


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    “I Tim 3 (I think) is probably the cleanest way to go for comps”

    But it does not say that women cannot be elders. Just a man with more than one wife. Your interpretation would mean that single men would be questionable, too. And we have that pesky problem with Junia being a female apostle (small a). And we know for a fact that women can be deacons because Pheobe was described as such and also a “protastis”.

    It really is not clean. Especially with the “likewise” in there.


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    Deb:

    Thanks for the resources. I’ll take a look.

    However, I really don’t have much of a desire to learn a lot about some boxy theologies created by men. I want to know what the bible says and means. Like I said earlier, these terms are limiting and put people in boxes. The whole point in my saying that I’ve never heard of the terms is that people on this blog are already implying I’m in one camp, when I’ve never even heard the term. It’s ridiculous.

    Having said that, I know the bible and have studied it intently for years more thoroughly than most of my peers. Let’s drop the terms and talk bible.

    I made a vague comment at the beginning of this post that men and women are different but equal and opened a big can of worms. People asked me about authority within marriage and the church. I gave honest answers. So what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. I’m asking them what authority do they recognize. I believe there is authority, but I want to know their beliefs concerning these other authorities. I also wonder if they are as resistant to them as they are to the ones we’ve been discussing.


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    Thanks for a lot of great information regarding one side of the debate. Just with one reading, I think I could poke about ten holes in the conclusions reached. I just don’t have the time or energy now, I’m on vacation. Maybe I will over time, when I have the time. But I do appreciate reading this view, so, don’t get me wrong, because I would be equally sceptical of the other side of the debate, understanding politics of the church the way I do. I’d look forward to poking holes in that side of the debate as well.

    I understand the politics behind translating. That’s why NIV is such a crappy translation, because of so much doctrinal bias.It’s so obvious.

    And one could easily say the same thing about the author of this long post. It would be interesting to know his biases. I’ve heard and read way too many people who slanted information in favor of their own bias beliefs, leaving out objective information that they knew, but conveniently left out.

    Just for objectivity sake, would you also post someone who strongly disagrees with this last point of view, who is credible. There must be someone, since he admits the committee was split on the issue. Junias may have won out because of more votes, but I have to believe that someone on that committee had valid reasons, not political ones, for voting the way he did.

    Thanks, again, for the good information.


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    Michael

    Thank you for your thoughtful questions. Here is the problem. I have read all of the Bible verses on these topics. The more I read, the less sure that I become. I know that there are wonderful, Bible committed theologians who study these verses and come out on all sides of this issue. That is why I did a post today on this subject.

    The major issue is what verses and how do they relate in context with the Scripture as a whole. It is rather unnerving to see professors of the Old and New Testament coming out on all sides of doctrine in this “B” issue.

    Here is why it is difficult. One can talk of the husband being the covering. But, Jesus is also the covering. Does the covering come through the man to the woman? Scripture is not as clear as some would like. How do we know that this was not a nod to the culture of the day? Slavery was talked about as well as in “Slaves obey you masters.” This was used to justify slavery until recently.

    Do you think that we are so sophisticated that we might not make the same mistake today? I am not so sure. Look at Galileo-jailed because the theologians of the day were absolutely sure the sun revolved around the earth. They were wrong.

    We smile at the church leaders back in those days. How unsophisticated they were! Yet the same argument goes on today with those insisting that Young Earth creationism must be true in spite of the profound lack of any evidence. But they are soooo sure that the rest of are ignoring the absolute proof of the Bible that we are close to being heretics (as Ken Ham has so famously alluded).I wonder how those 100 years from now will look back on us. Perhaps they will smile at our simplistic beliefs in certain verses of the Bible.

    That is why I am unsure that dueling Bible verses will prove anything since everyone who cares has already quoted them all and everyone who cares disagrees with those outside of their groups.


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    Lydia,

    Thank you for continuing to post, because the logic of your arguments are falling apart at the seams.

    My wife, who does work at home, went on a mission trip to Romania and last year to Mexico, traveling to various cities, laying hands on the sick, casting out demons, sharing the gospel, etc. Does that mean she DOESN’T work at home when she’s not on a mission trip. By your logic, that would be the case. You don’t have exhaustive information about Jonanna to know whether she did or did not work at home. Talk about a problem with proof texting.


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    Michael
    Please help me here. I think the NIV is a decent translation. Could you please tell me where the doctrinal biases are?


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    A couple of obvious places are when the translators chose the term, “sin nature,” as opposed to the, “flesh”. This sounds like FBC from anywhere doctrine, which wrongly teaches that we have two natures, the sin nature and the new nature. The next poor translation is in Romans 6:1 where NIV asks, “Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?” Compare that to NASB which asks, “Are we to continue IN SIN that grace so that grace may increase?” There’s a huge difference between asking the question if we are to continue to sin rather than continue in the state of being, “in sin,” which is what the context provides surrounding this verse. Then it says, may it never be, how shall who died to sin still live IN IT. We are in Christ, the second Adam. Don’t get me started, Dee, I could fill up this page on why this difference is so important.

    Let me just say this, You can’t tell believers that they’re sinners, then tell them to not sin. They would be acting against their natures. You have to let them know that they are slaves of righteousness, with new natures, and then tell them to go act righteously, in accordance with that nature.

    Having said that, maybe I was a little too emphatic of my criticism of the NIV.


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    Michael

    I want to take a look at what you said so give me tonight. When you say doctrinal biases, are you thinking that the NIV leans in a particular direction say dispensational versus covenantal or Arminian versus Reformed?


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    Dee,

    I agree with you that we have challenges in interpreting the scriptures in light of cultural differences, etc. But I simply asked a few questions what people thought in light of scripture. I mean we all come down on these issues somewhere, even though they’re hard.

    I could have given the same answer when asked by you and Lydia my thoughts on authority in the home and in the Body. Reading your answer to me, am I to believe that since it’s hard to interpret, the questions you all posed me are indeterminable? If not, I’d like to read your thoughts to the questions I’ve asked. Thanks.


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    Dee,

    I have not detected the biases you are referring to. I was referring to how their incorrect beliefs about who we are in Christ rings through in how they translated certain words.

    I have a friend who’s dad was on the committee that translated the NIV, and his statement to me was that they thought the NIV was more accurate on a sentence by sentence basis,where they thought the NASB was more accurate on a word by word basis.

    But, I was referring to the words, “sinful nature,” as opposed to, “flesh,” and also the passage in Romans. Both these passages support the incorrect believe that we are still in our sin and that our salvation is really when we’re called up yonder. The reality is, we are in Christ, have a new sinless nature, and we are to think of ourselves in that light, which is contrary to the words used in the NIV.


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    I’m responding to my own post because my first sentence was just rude. I’m sorry, Lydia.


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    I’d have to agree with about everything you said. Excellent post.

    However, where I would differ is that I do believe there are positions of authority, but not the way the corporate church would define authority. When someone takes on the responsibility of caring for the infants during the service time, they carry authority to do their job. When someone prepares a message for Sunday morning, they are responsible for that message. Therefore, they have the authority to put in that message what they want. They don’t have to submit to someone else, who is not responsible for the message, to put in what they say should be put in.

    As I wrote in an earlier post, a person should carry authority in whatever area they have responsibility.

    No, I am not implying something goofy, like some pastors who think they reign supreme because of their warped sense that they are responsible for my soul. I’m just speaking very practically; any time I have had a job, my employer would logically give me the appropriate authority to get the job done.


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    Michael,
    I agree that “sinful nature” is a poor translation of “flesh”. I understand why the NIV translators chose it — they wanted to avoid people erroneously concluding that it is our physical flesh that is the source of sin. So they went with a term intended to convey something about the inner proclivity of humans towards sin. But their translation lends itself to incorrect conclusions about what “nature” means.

    Our nature simply refers to what we are in essence, to what comes “naturally” for us. So, yes, it is a mistake to refer to Christians as having a “sin nature”, but it is also a mistake to refer to them as only having a “new nature”. Our nature encompasses all of what we are, and believers are neither all old nor all new at this point.

    That is, while Christians do have a change in essence due to the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, they also still have the inclination and proclivity toward sin that they possessed prior to their salvation. So both sin and righteousness are part of our nature; both come naturally to us.

    Only through the power of the Spirit are the deeds of the flesh mortified, and only through the power of the Spirit are acts of righteousness performed.


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    That is part of it but also you cannot ignore that he is more of a culture warrior than a theologian. GASP. I know, I know. But look at his blog, his talks, and what he is known for. It is as a culture warrior.

    Mohler did not start out as a patriarchal Calvinist. He used to work for a “liberal” seminary president..even raised money for them. But yes, he is a known tyrant to those who have worked close to him. Some worship him to the point, they overlook this as one of the characteristics of a ‘great man’. Others just leave or get transfers. But some are treated better than others…depends on where you are in the chain. Just don’t challenge him.

    I started to understand this Calvinista world view reading about Augustine…and how he declared the Donatists were not part of the “elect”.

    But my big question is how could Calvin justify mandatory “state” church attendance/sacraments and belief in the ‘elect’?


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    Michael

    I am a bit overwhelmed by the sudden uptick of comments so I am backtracking trying to respond to everyone who has taken the time to make such well thought comments. You said the following: “Therefore, they have the authority to put in that message what they want. They don’t have to submit to someone else, who is not responsible for the message, to put in what they say should be put in”.

    But is that really true? In a healthy well-functioning church, shouldn’t the message bearer submit to the authority of the priesthood? He is responsible to put into the message that which has been conveyed to him from the Father. Somehow I see this as one body functioning together.Not one “priest” determining the direction for the servants. Perhaps I am an idealist.


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    How do you deal with the issue of persistent sin in light of our new, sinless nature?

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