Jennifer Greenberg Reported Me to the Police for the Crime of ‘Blackmail’ and Another Person for the Crime of ‘Harassment’


Police

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King, Jr.


The Police Report

Case #2005-0021

Good afternoon,

Recently I took a report from Jennifer Greenberg regarding possible blackmail from you and possible online harassment from another person named XXXX. I was sent some text and email exchanges which do not show harassment or blackmail at this point, but I am trying to get more information about what is going on.  Would you be able to shed some light on the subject?

Feel free to contact me through here or through our dispatch number at (281) 463-6666.
Michael S. Bilbrey
Sergeant, Patrol-MUD 165
Harris County Constable’s Office Pct. 5
17423 Katy Freeway, Houston, TX 77094
281-463-6666 (Dispatch)

Some background

I spent last week in the Panama City Beach/30A area with my daughter and son in law. Despite growing up on the coast of North Carolina, he decided that this was the best beach ever during our annual family vacation. It was a fabulous week and the beach was beautiful and social distancing was observed.

I had finally started to relax when I saw a DM from XXXX asking me if I had seen the email from the police. What a way to ruin a beautiful day. We both received the same email. XXXX immediately contacted Sergeant Bilbrey. As you can see, we were not in trouble. However, he apparently asked a number of questions of XXXX.

I immediately emailed him and left a message. I didn’t hear from him until this week. In the interim, I spoke with a couple of pastors . Then I spoke with my Dallas based attorney who also reassured me that I was not in any trouble.

The sergeant asked me some questions surrounding this issue.Then he asked if I or XXXX had any reason to feel unsafe. I said that I was glad that I lived half a continent away from Greenberg but her tweets about guns made me a bit concerned. As for XXXX, there is a very good reason she doesn’t want her name known at this time.

Here is one of the tweets that made me a bit concerned for my well being.

When did this all start?

As best as I can tell, this started  in the late summer, early fall of 2019. Jules (who is not XXXX) had been asked  to endorse Ms. Greenberg’s book. Jules politely declined. This appeared to be not well received by Greenberg. Jules has offered to answer any questions I have the exchanges between Jules and Greenberg. However, I will only post statements from Jules.

Within this series of DM exchanges, Greenberg began to mention me, Ashley Easter and Julie Anne Smith as ganging up on her and being hostile. When I was first shown these tweets, I contacted Julie Anne and Ashley who denied having regular contact with on Twitter or elsewhere. I did so again this week, just to be sure they didn’t mind me mentioning their names. At this time, I barely knew Greenberg, first hearing about her at the SBC 2019  covention in Birmingham.

Jules was frustrated with Greenberg’s communication which appeared to lump her in with Exvangelicals. She also claimed that Jules compared her to a rapist. Jules attempted to explain herself but got nowhere.

Greenberg got upset, claiming that Jules compare her to a rapist when Jules was merely talking about half hearted apologies. Shortly after this exchange, Greenberg told Jules to stop contacting her.

Dee is accused of blackmail due to this exchange.

I emailed  Greenberg thru her website. I explained to her that I was not involved in any group that was harassing her. Please note that the Sergeant said Greenberg said that XXXX was harassing her using anonymous accounts. One day, XXXX will come forward and most everyone would realize that such a charge is ridiculous.

I asked her to please stop making such comments or I would have to post her texts/DMs that she had been sending about me.

At that point, it was done in my mind. I did not communicate with Greenberg from that point until today.I  have no plans for ever contacting her.

I was told to never, ever say things about a survivor even if his/her story was 100% false.

I had become aware that Greenberg’s story was sometime contradictory. I had been contacted by some acquaintances who alerted me to the matter. They gave me lots of examples and I felt obliged to say something.

How many of you remember these two tweets?

Here is the message that I received from a well known advocate. The word *post* is referring to these 2 tweets.

I was so disturbed by this that I contacted a couple of pastors. Here is what I was told. Greenberg is serving in a role that reflects on the SBC as a Caring Well speaker and often speaks at Ministry Safe events. It is appropriate to question these discrepancies.This is not a new victim who is seeking help. From TGC:
I have been troubled by that 100% statement for many months. I reached the conclusion that truth must always be expected. I’ve decided not to name the commenter but I would not be surprised if people guess who it is.

Is Greenberg really a member of the OPC?

Here are three  posts that she wrote on her website. An Open Letter to The Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC) Regarding Abuse,  Dear OPC: Amendment sand OPC Open Letter Regarding Abuse, Part II: The Last Writhe of the Devil

It is because of Robert, and my current pastor, Todd Bordow,* that I am still a member of the OPC. They are the only pastors who have ever encouraged me to speak truth, and speak it boldly. Unlike many others, they have never asked me to be quiet. They have never reminded me to be patient. They have never recommended that I tolerate abuse and pray.

…But I am not a perfect person. None of us are. By publishing my Open Letter, I bypassed church polity which shocked some and angered others. An Amendment was posted to clarify misunderstandings. But the fallible nature of this messenger doesn’t negate my testimony, or make my victimization and neglect any less relevant or real. Rather, it speaks to my pain, fear, and the exhausting struggle I’ve endured.

It is my understanding that there are some kernels of truth in this but also some things that are questionable. However, none of it really matters. Greenberg has allegedly left the OPC and plans to attend a Reformed SBC church.This is just one more explosion in Greenberg’s account.

The Salvation Army’s Project Fight

As many know, I sometimes assist Project Fight in getting medical and dental care for human trafficking victims. My husband (a cardiologist) and I know lots of physicians and dentists and TWW readers have contributed some money to help defray some costs like the dental lab which makes the dentures.

I was warned (and given screen shots) that Greenberg allegedly contacted Project Fight to tell them they shouldn’t work with me any longer because I hurt sex abuse victims. Here is a screen shot of the supposed response by Project Fight.

I got this screenshot from several people.


This alleged move by Greenberg  was the one that broke my heart. I couldn’t believe that she would attempt to interfere with trafficked victims getting needed medical and dental care.

After the police report, I decided to call Project Fight. They were deeply disturbed by this supposed letter and said that it is all a lie. Why would any sane person attempt to hurt people who so need our help? What is wrong in that person’s soul?

The police report made me realize that she is becoming more reactive which is worrisome.

I was told by the officer that Ms. Greenberg has been informed that she provided no proof of blackmail (blackmail???) or online harassment at this time.

This has not stopped Greenberg, who continues to claim harassment and blackmail on Twitter.


Where does that leave me and XXXX?

  • We are still accused by Greenberg.
  • I have some concerns about her tweets on guns.
  • I avoided her for most of this past year and she still reported me to the police.
  • Is Greenberg troubled? Given my experience, it sure appears so.
  • Troubled people are found in all of our churches. We should verify their stories and get them help before giving them platforms.
  • I have no intention of speaking with Greenberg and will contact the police if she bothers me. The officer told me how to do it.
  • I will never overlook a spokesperson whose story is 100% untrue. I don’t roll that way. Neither do the pastors I consulted.
  • I do not believe that she should be speaking in public settings but I am not as smart as Ministry Safe and the SBC leaders…

A final statement

I bear no ill will to Ms. Greenberg. I believe she is troubled and hope that her new church and any friends will help her deal with this obvious anger. Stable people do not go running to the police with silly ‘proof.’ I would not be surprised if she told others like those in Ministry Safe about her intent. I wonder what they might have said.

Let’s end it with this tweet by Greenberg. Perhaps she doesn’t understand how her actions may have led to her feelings of abandonment.

I forgive her.

 


Comments

Jennifer Greenberg Reported Me to the Police for the Crime of ‘Blackmail’ and Another Person for the Crime of ‘Harassment’ — 218 Comments

  1. From the Amazon book site:

    “A Reviewer & Reader
    1.0 out of 5 stars Not forsaken but not recommended.
    Reviewed in the United States on November 5, 2019
    I do not commend or endorse this author to you at this time. Her written work may be helpful to some, however, her advocacy is neither trauma informed nor well informed. There are a few other trauma informed, faith-based authors from which to choose. Choose wisely.”

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  2. Dee,

    Wow, that’s just crazy. I’m sorry you had to deal with something like that on your vacation. And you’re right, Panama City beaches are the best. I’ve been there a few times.

    I think Greenberg has said she only recently remembered the sexual abuse, which might explain some of the discrepancies in her story. However, the fact that you have one brief interchange that she then turns into an accusation of blackmail is quite disturbing. I pray that this doesn’t escalate any further.

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  3. This is completely unsurprising. Sad, but unsurprising. A lot of us have faced the “BE MY FAN AND NEVER QUESTION ME OR FACE MY IRE” side of Jenn, and I’m thankful that for me it just resulted in a block.

    We MUST verify people’s stories. From where I sit, having watched Jenn for several years, her main goal is fame and being above reproach.

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  4. Another comment from Greenberg’s Amazon book site:

    “Reader
    1.0 out of 5 stars Wanted to like it, but can’t recommend
    Reviewed in the United States on February 1, 2020
    I wanted to like this book, but after reading it came away with a very uneasy feeling. The author seems to want to be viewed as an untrained ‘expert’ of all abuses, including those she doesn’t claim to have endured, and provides opinions and anecdotes to bolster this, even including the Elizabeth Smart story to make a point. Some of the stories included in the book don’t match what was posted on social media, which is confusing. This brings us to another issue-observing the author’s interactions with abuse victims on social media has been disheartening. For someone claiming to understand, her tone and words are passive-aggressive, sanctimonious, and unkind if questioned. It doesn’t match with the explanations of biblical verses & ‘God experiences’ detailed in the book. Abuse advocates should understand that a certain level of civility is required on any medium they choose to participate.

    This book may help those who want to hear personal stories combined with her opinions, but if you’re seeking help to heal from abuse please consider books authored by Christian therapists-there are several. There are some wonderful bible verses referenced, so reading those made the experience worthwhile.”

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  5. Dee,

    Jennifer is a strange woman. I hope she stops harassing you.

    For years, she and I followed each other on Twitter and had always had friendly interchanges.

    So I was surprised when she blocked me one day, out of the blue. I thought that was a bit strange, but I didn’t lose any sleep over it. I dismissed her as overly emotional and touchy.

    A while later her name came up on Twitter when several people were talking about a really bizarre music video she did.

    Publicly she presents herself as an elite Christian artiste who is a spokesperson for the Southern Baptist Convention’s efforts to address and end sexual abuse, but she seems to have misjudged her audience. Her music video “Pretty Girls,” is really disturbing. It’s on YouTube but her own personal site doesn’t have a link to it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY4p-ucAEY8

    She’s an odd person. I hope she leaves you alone.

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  6. Mark Belenchia: Filing a False Police Report

    A church friend is a police sergeant that works with a prestigious large high school as their liaison officer. He handles teen suicides, cyber bulling & such. He also handles many reports of child abuse, as reported by high school teens.

    The sergeant says there’s an astute screening process to decipher authentic from false information regarding what may or may not have occurred, in these abuse reports. In addition, he regrets that the false information young reporters give takes a toll on the system, wasting investigators’ time as they try to get to the truth.

    The ones who need help, he says, need all of our resources.

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  7. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that you, Dee, are one of the good ones. No, scratch that, one of the BEST ones.

    You’ve spent how many years writing a blog for our benefit?
    It would be one thing if this excellent blog earned you tons of money.
    You could sell merch and make a bundle.
    You could spend your days at the club, playing tennis or mahjong.

    But no. You spend your time at your kitchen table, researching and writing, communicating and advocating,

    And when you talk about money, it’s to benefit people in dire need of medical assistance.

    I can’t imagine one person who would believe you would stoop to blackmail. The charge appears to be a ridiculous attempt to make Jennifer a victim. A very criminal cry for help. One wonders what else she lies about.

    Prayers for your protection and peace. Take heart, dear Dee. You are well loved, admired, respected.

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  8. So sorry you and other abuse survivors are going through this traumatic abuse by a “so called” advocate.

    Jennifer Greenberg needs therapy and not a platform from the SBC or any other church. Her story has way too many holes in it and is contradictory. 9 years ago, she said her father never raped her, seriously injured her, and God protected her from anything truly sinister. 3 years ago on her website, she says her dad only molested her once. Then in 2018 started saying her dad raped her at 3 years old. Now this year, she changed her story again to say he raped her at 2. Elsewhere she states her father sexually abused her for 20+ years. None of it adds up, and it’s clear she’s getting scared her platform is going to be stripped from her. I wouldn’t even be surprised if she is the one that created all the anonymous social media accounts that “harassed” her at this point.

    She’s an abusive deceiver who wants to be a conference speaker/author all for the money and with sinister motives. She claims to be the victim in any narrative, and screams slander anytime someone disagrees with her. She calls anyone that disagrees with her satanic, psychotic, a troll, and abusive.

    You’re right to be concerned as she’s showing herself to be an unhinged crazy nut. I would never recommend anyone to take advice from her, to read her book “Not Forsaken”, or any other book she intends to publish on surviving abuse or psychology. She seriously needs psychotherapy herself due to her deranged behavior.

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  9. Dee, this makes me so sad. In some ways it sounds like JMG has the maturity of a junior high student, but when these thoughts are brought to a public forum like Twitter, it can wreak havoc on many people. (It’s one reason why I don’t have a Twitter account). It’s also sad that the police have to waste time on a report filed by a person who is obviously in need of serious help.

    I don’t think any one fully “gets over” sexual abuse, any more than victims of domestic violence “get over” that kind of abuse. But, I do think there is a certain level of recovery that help a victim deal effectively with life if they are open to help. I think JMG needs help to further her along in her recovery, starting with a disabled Twitter account.

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  10. “I was warned (and given screen shots that Greenberg allegedly contacted Project Fight to tell them they shouldn’t work with me any longer. because I hurt sex abuse victims. Here is a screen shot of the supposed response by Project Fight.

    ….After the police report, I decided to call Project Fight. They were deeply disturbed by this supposed letter and said that it is all a lie.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    so, Project Fight had not written the response letter, but it had been fabricated by someone else?

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  11. Wow. In reading what she has said and done, and even more so in what she has written, I am convinced this person has a personality disorder. She comes across as utterly self focused, intent on maximum disruption, controlling, disingenuous. Unfortunately, if this is the case, the person who has a personality disorder never thinks anything is wrong so they are notoriously difficult to treat. You are wise to steer clear. There is likely no good way to engage. The SBC would be wise to steer clear as well. I suspect they will eventually.

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  12. I hope people read what you posted here carefully Dee.

    This woman tried to have you, a long-time advocate for the abused, a leader in her community, a person defined as high-risk for COVID complications, who cares for her elderly relatives, forcibly removed from her home and family, placed in a holding cell in one of the highest risk places for contracting COVID, and just this week describes her actions with the label “Laughing Out Loud”. FTR, Jennifer is NOT one of those people who uses LOL as a throw-away phrase or emoji. I believe she meant it. She is laughing out loud over her clever scheme to terrorize a woman who spends close to 2,000 hours a year (or more) tirelessly helping victims.

    Then she literally schemes to take health care away from those who need it most? And this is health care for the people she “claims” to care about most?! BTW, those dentures are needed because the pimps knock the teeth out of these innocent women and children’s mouths for reasons I cannot state here.

    The lack of any teeth not only results in serious health issues, it is a daily, minute by minute, constant reminder that their only value in this world was as an orifice. It’s not about giving them a nice smile, these doctors are literally giving them a shred of decency and dignity back. They are restoring their self-worth and their very HUMANITY. This isn’t something cosmetic, it is life restoration for these sex slaves.

    I am shocked and disgusted beyond words that ANY person would do something so callous and hate-filled, to direct their unmerited malice towards those who should secure the most compassion of any human, but especially someone who makes their living claiming to be a sex abuse victim and advocate.

    I thought I had seen the worst, until I read that part. Do her publishers at The Good Book Company @TheGoodBookUK stand behind these actions? Jennifer is currently working on two new books and plans to write four Christian Fantasy Books with dragons and mysticism, etc, that she implies they are interested in publishing. She is also writing course materials she has said she wants Ligonier.org to carry as their single largest seller. She is in this to make mad amounts of money and to seek fame and glory.

    I am not surprised that the SBC, the ERLC and Ministry Safe may want to cause you pain and suffering Dee. They consider you a thorn in their sides. What I am interested to see is if they believe that sex trafficked victims should be punished, by the woman who they provided with a platform? Do they think trying to have innocent people jailed is “laugh out loud” funny? Do they think that their spokesperson threatening people with gun violence if they disagree with her is appropriate? Keep in mind that Jennifer admits she packed this “3.57 Magnum”(sic) gun away with her knick knacks when she moved away from home in her 20’s and the public knows this. That wasn’t an idle threat.

    The Good Book Company is based in England, where personal gun possession is illegal and American gun violence is reviled. How do they feel about Dirty Harriet running around threatening people with gun violence who disagree with her? How do they think this reflects on their “godly” publishing company?

    We need answers and action from those who created this…

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  13. I hesitate, in the extreme, to say this, but, Ms Greenberg may have issues undealt with. We can judge actions, but not her, at least for now.

    I am theorizing in my own here, but, her use by others for their agenda may be aggravating her own psychological trauma. Let us address the issue without condemning her with further proof.
    That is, address the point, not the person, except in very controlled circumstances.

    I don’t comment here as much as others, in order to control my own self, but I feel the need to say this is all very treacherous ground. Please note I am not absolving Ms Greenberg. I am saying this is murky.

    It is a shame what she has said. Prayer is needed, and support for Dee.

    Also, and I step out on a limb here, if others have used Ms Greenberg for their own advancement, causing her mental and spiritual degredation, may coals be heaped upon their head. I am loathe to invoke imprecatory prayer, but I do so now, if the conditions exist.

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  14. I remember the weird and disturbing things Greenberg said on Twitter last year to dee, jules, and another Twitter friend. I hope she gets professional help (not biblical counseling or help from anyone in the SBC) and stops styling herself as an expert, because there is clearly something very wrong.

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  15. Dee, you’ve supported so many of us for so long — thank you! There may not be much beyond prayer and support to offer, but let me know if this other thing I could do would be of help. (Copying here–and editing slightly–what I wrote in response to one of your tweets to alert readers to this post.)

    Dee, if it’d be of help to you, or to organizations you’ve tagged [Caring Well, MinistrySafe], I can supply copies of any documentation of online sources I may have collected and any analysis written relevant to time periods and situations in this post. Message me–earliest I’m available to search my files is mid/late June. [If plans work out, I’m relocating next week!]

    https://twitter.com/futuristguy/status/1263959056747642881

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  16. Your genuine self-sacrificial support and advocacy for those in need is appreciated by so many and has been now for many years.

    Praying for protection, strength, grace and wisdom for you and yours, and others affected and involved. Praying that effective and gracious help may be given where it is needed.

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  17. Not sure I understand your reply to my comment. I was merely referring to a false report being made by this Greenburg woman. She has made a false claim of being ‘blackmailed’ by Dee. I was not talking about claims of abuse… If the Greenburg women is ‘off’ or delusional does that make her actions less problematic? In my mind a false claim is a false claim regardless of the person making the claims state of mind.

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  18. So sorry you and other abuse survivors are going through this traumatic abuse by a “so called” advocate.

    Jennifer Greenberg needs therapy and not a platform from the SBC or any other church. Her story has way too many holes in it and is contradictory. 9 years ago, she said her father never raped her, seriously injured her, and God protected her from anything truly sinister. 3 years ago on her website, she says her dad only molested her once. Then in 2018 started saying her dad raped her at 3 years old. Now this year, she changed her story again to say he raped her at 2. Elsewhere she states her father sexually abused her for 20+ years. None of it adds up, and it’s clear she’s getting scared her platform is going to be stripped from her. I wouldn’t even be surprised if she is the one that created all the anonymous social media accounts that “harassed” her at this point.

    She’s an abusive deceiver who wants to be a conference speaker/author all for the money and with sinister motives. She claims to be the victim in any narrative, and screams slander anytime someone disagrees with her. She calls anyone that disagrees with her satanic, psychotic, a troll, and abusive.

    You’re right to be concerned as she’s showing herself to be a little unhinged. I would never recommend anyone to take advice from her, to read her book “Not Forsaken”, or any other book she intends to publish on surviving abuse or psychology. She seriously needs psychotherapy herself due to her deranged behavior.

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  19. I know Dee is genuine, I have worked with her and known her for several years now. She does not deserve this treatment. Attacking advocates is nothing new but filing a false police report goes to a higher level. I have run into survivors and advocates of all sorts. When someone writes books on the subject of clergy abuse stop and take a look at how they promote these books, it can tell you things about their motivation. Books are needed no doubt, but how they are presented counts…

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  20. Good post Dee and pretty brave of you to respond in a firm but professional manner. Regardless of the details surrounding Ms Greenberg, if have learned something over my 50 years in “good, Bible-believing” churches:

    About every four or five years someone like this comes along. They know all the right things to say in order to make friends quickly and get involved in ministries. They will be well-spoken and seem trustworthy. Then, over time, some story will not add up or some conflict will occur out of nowhere. The conflict will spread to other people and then we will all simultaneously figure out that this person is “troubled”. In spite of efforts to help, they will suck the life and energy out of everyone. The pastors you spoke to have wise counsel.

    The sarcastic side of me wonders if people like this just weren’t popular in high school and they are determined to get validation somewhere, but only on their terms. It is more complicated than that I am sure. I have been on the receiving end of it from people and blew it a few times, but the years have hopefully added some wisdom in dealing with people like this.

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  21. I had a friend several years ago who contacted me because she wanted to talk about how her parents had been part of a coven and had performed ritual Satanic abuse on her for years. I was stunned, as I knew the family really well. I suspended judgment and said I hoped she could get the right kind of help. She did, and it turned out she had severe mental illness that included delusional behavior.I was careful because I knew other people from my college days with stories of abuse that were very true. It’s good to be careful before calling someone out, although Twitter makes it hard because people put EVERYTHING out there.

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  22. Dee, there are a lot of disturbed individuals in this world. Back in the day, it was easy to disconnect from one ,because Facebook,e-mail, Instagram and Twitter wasn’t around to be taken advantage of. Now it is easier to be targeted by almost anyone with the internet.
    Many of them suffer from personality disorders and can can become very volatile and paranoid. When they feel slighted, watch out! They project their own problems onto others (targets of blame) and also tries to bring other to take their side. One of my oldest friends is histrionic and I had to cut the situation off, because she had no insight into her behavior and project her misery onto me.
    You are wise to stay away and let the police handle it. This woman sounds like she has no insight into her own behavior and is looking for a reaction. These people do not seek help very often (because they don’t feel culpable.
    Thank you for the good work you do!! Ya’ll need to for a support group to discuss theses issues away from the “limelight”. Do not feed the beast,

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  23. Muff Potter,

    I had a lady come to my Bible study a couple years ago. She started talking about her secret messages regarding government conspiracies and I checked in with someone quickly. I hadn’t been told she was bipolar and refused to take medication. It was pretty stressful until we found a better setting for her (a bigger group with a very discreet minder). I mean, in a group of five people who didn’t know each other well, she was a standout. If JMG has these kinds of issues, she needs some careful, prayerful help.

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  24. Magistos: if others have used Ms Greenberg for their own advancement, causing her mental and spiritual degredation, may coals be heaped upon their head. I am loathe to invoke imprecatory prayer, but I do so now, if the conditions exist.

    This discussion was what actually started the whole drama last year. It was during/right after the convention when the discussion began on Twitter about the “designated survivors” that the SBC chose as their spokespeople for ministry sexual abuse. The biggest issue with nearly all the spokespeople is that they were victims of child sexual abuse, but not victims of ministry sexual abuse (child or adult). Not to minimize that in any way, but then no one could actually speak to being abused by a Southern Baptist pastor or leader. And people questioned why people like Christa Brown and Jules were passed up completely.

    I don’t really remember the timeline, but the first time I saw one of Greenberg’s responses, she had been tagged into a discussion about this. Her initial response was that nobody knew what they were talking about and how dare anyone question her involvement with the SBC. Except… what people were really questioning is the SBC’s involvement with her and the other survivors they were using. She also seemed to believe people were only talking about her, when most of the discussion had really been more about Rachel Denhollender and Jules. Her multiple responses were seething, but most of them didn’t really address the topic at all or respect the multiple victims in the thread.

    Another aspect of that discussion was that the person had started the thread was a SBC messenger and had gone to some of the panels. The panel in particular he was discussing didn’t have Greenberg on it at all and what he took issue with the most was that SBC leaders like Russell Moore and Chuck Stetzer dominated the conversation and really didn’t give the victims any time speak. When questions were directed at the victims (mostly Denhollender), they answered instead. He said some of the other panels weren’t as bad, but that one was the best attended one.

    So, important questions were being raised about the SBC and why they were doing this. The consensus seemed to be that they were more interested in selling their abuse kits and getting churches to buy into the program than actually stopping ministry sexual abuse (or any abuse really). It was not about Greenberg at all, but about the SBC and the abuse they seem to want to perpetuate.

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  25. ishy: The panel in particular he was discussing didn’t have Greenberg on it at all and what he took issue with the most was that SBC leaders like Russell Moore and Chuck Stetzer dominated the conversation and really didn’t give the victims any time speak. When questions were directed at the victims (mostly Denhollender), they answered instead.

    I’ll add to this that Susan Cordone also was tagged into that discussion and got angry in a similar way to Greenberg, but seemed to think people were questioning her credentials. The exact opposite actually happened in that thread, with the SBC messenger frustrated that the true expert on that panel, Cordone, was not really allowed to speak much. Whenever a question came up that Cordone should have answered, Moore answered instead. So the thread was actually defense of Cordone. I suspect she just didn’t understand Twitter well enough to read back.

    But this brings up another issue with their “designated survivors” AND their panel expert, and that is that they were all women. New Calvinist theology teaches that women are subhuman and created to serve men. It implies they can’t have any thought as well as any man, even a woman who is an expert in a subject with a PhD is still secondary to a man who has not studied the subject hardly at all.

    I think they intentionally chose a female panel expert so they could control the narrative. Even many non New Cal men in the SBC would listen to a man’s uneducated opinion over a woman who is an expert.

    Bruce Ware, theology professor at SBTS, teaches this theology. https://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/christian-myths-on-gender-and-gender-roles/myth-woman-is-the-derivative-image-of-god-and-man-the-direct-image/

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  26. ishy: This discussion was what actually started the whole drama last year. It was during/right after the convention when the discussion began on Twitter about the “designated survivors” that the SBC chose … than actually stopping ministry sexual abuse (or any abuse really). It was not about Greenberg at all, but about the SBC and the abuse they seem to want to perpetuate.

    1. Now we are shedding light. Some power is using us, by cherry picking in a way that isn’t just prioritising for purely practical reasons. I often see it in disability and other publicly charitable contexts.
    2. Then we have well meaning individuals who want to weaponise us beyond our capability by cheering us on to become the straw that broke the oppressors’ back.
    3. Stories do add up but in a way we don’t yet understand. To take from my own experience this week. A secular authority that applied mental and physical cruelty against me more than 50 years ago, I’ve only just realised that’s what they were doing. And now I’m the one that is feeling dirty for buying into it unawares. Meantime private individuals variously sexually harassed or physically hurt me (depending on circumstances, there isn’t always “recourse”). Private and falsely constituted semi-official groups twisted my universe and their own. Almost exactly the same was done by other similar set-ups to someone close to me. On occasions organisations wronged me or continue to imply a threat to do so. I witnessed a close family member suffer neglect as a form of over-protection and I still feel dirty for not taking their part, being almost as frail myself. We’ve just found out a parent is last known to have seen my never-mentioned uncle when they were 16 and he was 12. Most of these things happened or happen to most of us – and they are NOT trivial. We think we “got over” something but we only part way got over it.
    5. We need to not only call out dynamics, but also the inconsistent (untruthful) rationale that rationalises the mainspring behind. A private individual’s bad rationale is a less harmful thing than that maintained by a powerful organisation.
    6. This is NOT a criticism of you. The talk and actions you’ve described could be a form of mirroring the dynamics of the oppressors. Life is lived through gritted teeth and sometimes we hang on.

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  27. Amy Moore: I thought I had seen the worst, until I read that part. Do her publishers at The Good Book Company @TheGoodBookUK stand behind these actions? Jennifer is currently working on two new books and plans to write four Christian Fantasy Books with dragons and mysticism, etc, that she implies they are interested in publishing. She is also writing course materials she has said she wants Ligonier.org to carry as their single largest seller. She is in this to make mad amounts of money and to seek fame and glory.

    —–

    Their website specifically says:
    “We do not publish poetry, fiction, biography or autobiography.”

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  28. dee: needs to be dealt with.

    I agree. Unfortunately when things start online, part of the response needs to happen online too.

    This may or may not apply, but it keeps crossing my mind: a relative of mine used to invent upsetting stories about others, and set them up as loyalty tests. If you wanted to stay in her favor, you had to believe her story and also side with her against the other person in the invented story.

    Over time, my relative ended up with a group of friends who served her needs without question—very gratifying for her, to be a leader in her own little echo chamber.

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  29. dee:
    Jane (not *that* Jane),

    I have seen that video. Obviously I’ve been trying to figure her out since all this started. I truly don’t get her. I am startled with the numbers of people commenting here and on Twitter that have had untoward experiences with her.

    Dee,

    As my late, very wise father used to say to me “When something just does not make sense to you, follow the money”.

    It’s been many, many years since I’ve set foot in a “Christian” bookstore. Stopped being able to stomach them years ago. We will never know how many “authors” and musicians were puffed up and pushed forward and elevated beyond the limits of what their spiritual maturity could withstand.

    While I support the scriptural concept of a true under-shepherd being able to support his family by his pastoral work (NOBODY works harder than my precious LCMS pastor)…in a perfect world, I wish that all others would be tentmakers like the Apostle Paul.

    The second someone starts getting fame and/or fortune for their “gospel work” their integrity is on the line. And few, if any, of us sinful human beings are going to be able to stand up to that temptation.

    You and your sadly afflicted tormentor will be in my prayers. Be wise, be safe, be in His hands. XOXO

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  30. Well, all of the readers and posters are getting first hand education of what is, and is not the meaning of a Number of words: gossip, lying, blackmail, divisive , loyalty, harassment, gaslighting, bullying, narcissist, delusional, denial, Sin-leveling, …

    I am sure I am leaving out a number of others…

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  31. Michael: The talk and actions you’ve described could be a form of mirroring the dynamics of the oppressors. Life is lived through gritted teeth and sometimes we hang on.

    Originally, I didn’t put too much into those responses. I also was more of a witness of the discussion than a participant at the time, because I wasn’t there. The SBC was suddenly and quickly cast into a bad light (I believe deservedly, as I did see some of the abuse first-hand and the lengths for which some leaders went to cover it up) and they rushed into damage control with more concern over their reputation than the victims.

    They rushed to find victims that would give them credibility but not bring to light some of the real deep problems with ministry sexual abuse and the ways many of those same leaders had covered up abuse in the past. They wanted to control the narrative, and they wanted victims to seem credible but not enough to be listened to (therefore, all women) and who didn’t have stories of actual abuse within the SBC. MinistrySafe is all lawyers, not experts (despite what they claim).

    I am a victim of how women are treated in the SBC, having been forced out of seminary simply because of my gender. No matter how they might pretend otherwise to the public, they believe women are lesser and shouldn’t have voices in their circles or their families. They are teaching that at their seminaries. They are teaching founder theology at their seminaries, that there’s people who are more special in God’s eyes than others. These things should be talked about.

    But even while I was in seminary, I didn’t see all these things going on. It took me years after seminary to fully understand what was going on and how abuse has been perpetuated, protected, and covered up. I don’t blame anyone for not seeing that. And I pray that more people see it through these discussions.

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  32. George: About every four or five years someone like this comes along. They know all the right things to say in order to make friends quickly and get involved in ministries. They will be well-spoken and seem trustworthy. Then, over time, some story will not add up or some conflict will occur out of nowhere. The conflict will spread to other people and then we will all simultaneously figure out that this person is “troubled”. In spite of efforts to help, they will suck the life and energy out of everyone. The pastors you spoke to have wise counsel.

    Thank you. I didn’t want to write the post but felt it was important for many reasons. Great comment-You are wise.

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  33. Robert: I think Greenberg has said she only recently remembered the sexual abuse, which might explain some of the discrepancies in her story

    I think that there is more to this.Obviously I am well aware of recovered memories because I support abuse victims.

    Here is the problem. If she has lied in some parts of her life (Telling her friends she sent these carefully constructed letters) then everything she says is suspect in my mind.

    At this point, I do not know what to believe about her life, etc. Could much of it be untrue? Who knows?

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  34. @CoffeeYall: We MUST verify people’s stories. From where I sit, having watched Jenn for several years, her main goal is fame and being above reproach.

    I had been thinking about writing a post which would question the vetting process for speakers, book endorsements, etc. Could it be that the leaders didn’t really care about her and instead used her to furtherer their goals? Who knows?

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  35. Ava Aaronson: The sergeant says there’s an astute screening process to decipher authentic from false information regarding what may or may not have occurred, in these abuse reports. In addition, he regrets that the false information young reporters give takes a toll on the system, wasting investigators’ time as they try to get to the truth.

    I wold love to know what this screening process involves. I think we all need to learn how to determine fact from fiction. If you ever find out anything about the process, could you send it to me or give me the name of someone who might speak with me?

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  36. Remnant,

    Thank you for your kind comment. This was a hard post to write. I spent much time considering my own emotions. Once I realized that I no longer felt serious anger towards Greenberg, I felt it was time to post.

    All I want is for her to leave me alone and to stop hurting others as many on here and Twitter have reported. How the leaders respond to this will be fascinating. Will they ignore it? We all will learn much from what happens from here.

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  37. dee,

    Not just for sexual abuse, but all forms of abuse, and just plan how to report on what one thinks “is the Truth”… The US is currently suffering from a “lack of “truth”” in our national life, and the confidence in “the system” is continuing to erode…. not a pretty picture…. take good old Ravi Zacharias as a example…

    and, as I have said before, I need to stop…

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  38. dee,

    “Could it be that the leaders didn’t really care about her and instead used her to furtherer their goals? Who knows?”
    +++++++++++++

    well, what i observe is the more a christian has to lose (the symbiosis of power, money, & reputation), the more they develop a knack for rationalizing just about any shady, deceptive, corrupt, immoral thing away.

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  39. Jane (not *that* Jane): Something fabricated by someone, and not actually from the Salvation Army? I assume the Salvation Army is disavowing authorship of this letter?

    That is correct. The letter was shared with me by several folks who get her text messages. They were worried for me. I blew it off until I got the police report. Then, I knew I had to contact Project Fight. I was told that they had never sent such a letter and were very kind to me.

    I was so embarrassed that I had to contact them and explain all of this. I know the people who sent these to me. They did so out of concern that she might have done something to hurt me. I didn’t believe that (except to cry a bit). Then when the police letter was sent, I knew I needed to follow up because I didn’t know what she would do. I am exhausted by this whole thing.

    Please keep XXXX in your prayers.

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  40. dee:
    Ted,

    When someone reports me to the police. it is unjust and needs to be dealt with. Besides, my husband and I have concealed weapons permit.

    Dee, you should leave this alone. Her reference to the 357 is very worrisome. Just leave it alone and pray for her.

    Leaving things alone makes things worse. Really, most of what Dee writes about on here is because people ‘wanted things left alone’. Also, doing nothing but praying for her won’t fix a damn thing. It takes real concrete action. Being scared is normal and I stand with Dee on that daily. Working through fear to get things resolved is a most! I’m a catholic apostate so, anyone who aligns themselves with the catholic leadership sends up a ‘red flag’ for me. Speaking at the Caring Well conference makes me very suspicious…

    >

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  41. Jeffrey Chalmers,

    The letter appeared to be distributed amongst her acquaintances who decided to warn me. I got me answer this week. She didn’t do it. However, it’s so weird to imagine her making up a letter that she sent to Project Fight and then making up a letter claiming it was sent to her fromProject Fight. The letters were sent to me to warn me of a potential problem.

    I know the folks who sent me the letters.

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  42. Linn: I had a friend several years ago who contacted me because she wanted to talk about how her parents had been part of a coven and had performed ritual Satanic abuse on her for years.

    Oh my gosh. I have heard such stories for years. I once heard a pastor say that he counsels a woman who claimed she saw a baby murdered in a ritual. After the talk, I asked him. “Did you report this to the police? Did the woman?” I could tell he never thought of that. Reporting to the police is one way to get it verified. I suspect it didn’t happen but that’s a story for another day.

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  43. ishy,

    The “only women” as designated SBC survivors keeps coming back to me. We’ve heard such troubling accounts of clergy and other male authority figures abusing boys. I know conspiracy theories abound, but it really smells like a powerful abuser is heavily involved in a cover-up, either to protect self or cronies, or to enable abuse to continue unchecked.

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  44. Debbie Newman (Ann): Ya’ll need to for a support group to discuss theses issues away from the “limelight”. Do not feed the beast,

    There are many in this work that know each other. In this instance, I spoke with a few. You would recognize some names.They know who they are and they know I thank them.

    Also, Jules was more than helpful in this matter. She is such a support.I have adopted her as my unofficial daughter.

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  45. ishy: think they intentionally chose a female panel expert so they could control the narrative. Even many non New Cal men in the SBC would listen to a man’s uneducated opinion over a woman who is an expert.
    Bruce Ware, theology professor at SBTS, teaches this theology. https://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/christian-myths-on-gender-and-gender-roles/myth-woman-is-the-derivative-image-of-god-and-man-the-direct-image/

    Awesome linke and great insight.

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  46. I began following Jennifer Greenberg on Twitter in the Fall of 2018. Her story of abuse was heartbreaking, and I was glad to see another survivor able to speak the unspeakable. She portrayed herself as an advocate who wanted to help other survivors as well. This was great, in my mind, because I knew how badly our society needs advocates committed to the cause. On countless occasions, she would indicate the number of survivors who would reach out to her privately, and how encouraged they were to be able to engage in conversation.

    In early 2019, I witnessed an exchange between Jennifer and some other people I was also following on Twitter at the time. Jennifer was rude, illogical, condescending, while employing tactics such as DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim & offender). I had seen some questionable exchanges before that, but this one was blatant. My immediate thought was, “this is no way for someone claiming to be an advocate should be treating others, even if those others are in the wrong. Something isn’t right here.” It was at this point that she landed on my radar.

    In the months to come, several similar encounters occurred, highlighting her belligerence and disrespect for others, most of whom were engaging in good faith on topics or discussions that merited dialogue. It became abundantly clear that she employed these contemptuous responses, in particular, when someone disagreed or challenged her on a topic where she portrays herself as an ‘expert.’

    To my confounding dismay, she was named as a speaker for the SBC ERLC Caring Well conference, and it was announced she had a book on abuse being released. How on earth is this person being platformed by any entity, let alone the SBC? The Good Book Company? Ministry Safe? Did they not do 10 seconds of research in order to discover the dastardly warning flags strewn about?

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  47. There are several factors to be considered in this horrendous scenario:

    -Survivor
    -Advocate
    -Nationally platformed speaker at the SBC ERLC Caring Well Conference
    -Published author with The Good Book Company. Her book, Not Forsaken, is billed by the SBC and other entities as some kind of ‘expert’ help for churches to learn how to respond to abuse
    -Producing content such as workshops in order to teach others
    -Now elevated as an SBC-endorsed author, providing guidance to survivors and church leaders alike, including speaking at events alongside Ministry Safe

    If we were dealing with someone who was only a survivor, not any of the other specifications listed above, then the approach, and scrutiny, would be markedly different.

    As most in the survivor community know, it is difficult to be believed when it comes to experiences of domestic violence, sexual abuse, and the like. The mantra, ‘Believe Survivors’ came about for this reason. Survivors desperately want – and need – to be believed, to be taken seriously when they share their stories. And they absolutely should be believed, taken seriously. Stories of abuse, as those who compassionately comprehend know all-too-well, are messy, confusing, disconnected, foggy, etc. That is all completely normal and an expected part, along with so much more, of understanding the trauma experienced by survivors.

    It is possible to take a survivor seriously AND wear a thinking cap. Again, we’re not dealing with someone who is only a survivor, she is also being platformed by the largest denomination in the United States. Scrutiny is necessary and should be expected. As a Christian culture, if we declare the role of advocate/survivor (in addition to all the other attributes listed above) is untouchable, unquestionable, always telling the truth, we are not just treading near dangerous territory, we are writing a recipe for guaranteed disaster. What is an example of another role largely considered untouchable, unquestionable, always telling the truth, no matter what? Pastors. The advocacy community fights tooth and nail against this, as everyone knows that some of the worst abusers are hiding behind the title of Pastor. Why would we give opportunity for another role, such as advocate/survivor, to be placed on the pedestal of unquestioning support? Have we not learned our lesson that no one, no role, no position, should ever reside there? Isn’t a significant portion of advocacy dedicated to protecting the vulnerable, and wouldn’t that include protecting the vulnerable from someone unsafe who has infiltrated the ranks of our own?

    Rachael Denhollander recently expressed her reticence to declare the veracity of a survivor’s claims: “I have, unfortunately, seen false allegations before (rare though they are) and am very cautious with what I will state publicly.” Wisdom we should all adopt, especially entities such as the SBC, The Good Book Company, Ministry Safe, all of whom give platform, presence, power, influence to whomever they endorse.

    False accusations, albeit incredibly rare, infuriate us. As they should.

    I never would have even considered questioning the veracity of Jennifer’s claims, had I not been paying attention to her rude, patronizing, supercilious responses. As time went on, the number of record-scratch moments after reading something she wrote began to skyrocket. The amount of discrepancies, having nothing whatsoever to do with trauma-related memory or recall issues, are multitudinous.

    Beyond that, plus her consistently rude, disgraceful treatment of others on social media: the final major concern is her lack of posting accurate, in-context research as it relates to abuse. An example of this is how she conflates data when it comes to neglect, with data when it comes to sexual abuse. Skewing those numbers is not helpful in the least, in analyzing the differences or similarities between sexual abusers and those who neglect. As someone who claims herself to be an expert in abuse, confusing concepts like these, while combatively defending against those who present legitimate, in-context numbers and research, is another significant reason why Jennifer should be nowhere near a public platform of any kind, nor be regarded as an advocate.

    The SBC, The Good Book Company USA/UK, and Ministry Safe all have blood on their hands for not properly vetting Jennifer in advance of elevating her platform. They absolutely need to answer for this, by removing her from any and all future events, taking her supposed expert book off their bookshelves, contacting every Caring Well participant who saw her book advertisements ad nauseam throughout the conference and received Phillip Bethancourt’s post-conference follow-up email advertising her book yet again, to let them know they should have NEVER promoted her book, ESPECIALLY as a book of reference to help churches respond to abuse. Of the actual experts with books or reference material out there, such as Dr. Diane Langberg, the SBC promoted Jennifer Greenberg? Atrocious, appalling, and abhorrent.

    Dee, I am so sorry you are going through this. Greenberg has made it clear that she is unstable and dangerous, with marked signs of escalating. Please be careful, and let XXXX know to do the same. You have support from those of us who see exactly what is going on. We will do whatever we can to help.

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  48. On Jennifer’s website, it says she was born on December 8, 1984. This means on December 8 of 1987, she would have been 3 years old. On a 4/30/18 Twitter post, she said: “Today, Texas has no statute of limitations on child rape. In 1988 Tennessee where the crime occurred, it hit when I turned 21. As a child I’d filed the memory away as a weird and inexplicable experience. When I later recalled it as a 21 year old adult, it made horrifying sense.” Thus, in 1988, she was 3 years old when the rape occurred, and in fact, she does state elsewhere that she was 3 years old. Yet on 2/14/19, she posts: “I just got a call from the Harris County Police, Child Protective Services. Last year, I filed a report documenting my rape at 2YO and abuse for over 20+ years.” Jennifer has declaratively stated she was raped at 2 years old several times. It simply isn’t possible for her to have been 2-years-old in 1988, as she would have already turned 3. This isn’t an issue of lack of memory of the actual abuse in 1988. This is someone who declared just last year that in her mid-2018 police report, she documented her age as 2. Not possible.

    In addition, in the above quoted 4/30/18 post, “When I later recalled it [the rape] as a 21 year old adult…,” and a few months earlier on 1/9/18, “By the time I remembered and understood what happened to me, it was already too late…. I called the police, and while they did believe me, the best they could offer was a restraining order.” At age 21, the year would have been 2006, which is when she got married. On 8/23/19 she says, “finally, months before my wedding [2006], I blew the whistle on my dad.” It was also approximately 2006 when she hid her father’s gun, which she proudly says is the reason she is not intimidated by people. Yet Dee posted in this blog a 2010 article where Jennifer is quoted: “My father never raped me…. never seriously injured me.” Her 1/25/20 defense of the article: “Due to PTSD, a misunderstanding of what “rape” is legally speaking, and fear of my abuser, the 2010 article is in error.” Which is it? The multiple stories of her coming to terms with her abuse in 2006, including blowing the whistle on her dad, or is it that she didn’t remember her abuse and/or was too afraid in 2010?

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  49. dee: I had been thinking about writing a post which would question the vetting process for speakers, book endorsements, etc. Could it be that the leaders didn’t really care about her and instead used her to furtherer their goals? Who knows?

    Yes, please do, Dee. This larger, recurring question we face is now crucial: “Who vets the vetters?” Some questions surrounding this issue have come from the whole “designated survivor” discussions that emerged when some major organizations, conferences, and training events seemed to try to speak for “survivor communities,” instead of first listen to them.

    These communities are diverse in terms of theological perspectives, demographics, and types of abuse/violence they’ve experienced. But in a seeming rush to resource us and/or those in roles to minister to us, these platform-providing institutions seemed to bypass our collective wisdom, which has been accruing for decades, along with the documentation underneath these opinions.

    In 2018-2019, I wrote a lot about survivor communities and various aspects of who these are, what we face in terms of tactics, who seems to listen to us (or doesn’t). The last post in that series had some relevant things to say about institutions and their vetting of abuse survivors, advocates, and activists.

    Do they include or exclude survivors/advocates who have earned trust and a good reputation among these communities? (I call these litmus-test people.) INCLUSION of litmus-test people by the institution is generally taken by the survivor collective as an indication of good faith in dealing with systemic abuse.

    Do they include or exclude those who have earned a not-so-good reputation among survivor communities? (I call these barometer people, as barometers indicate the status of environment, and potential “stormy weather” ahead.) Barometer people are deemed unsafe by acknowledged voices in the broader survivor communities. In such cases, there is typically documentation available from news reports, survivor blogs, and social media that makes the “not safe” conclusion well reasoned. INCLUSION of barometer people is generally taken by the survivor collective as indication of bad faith by the institution, and questionable trust/authority to speak to/for abuse survivors.

    Individuals and institutions should definitely consider such input when vetting potential authors, speakers, ministers, organizations. This isn’t about power of survivor communities, but the need to protect survivors and potential victims from harm.

    Those who give untrustworthy people a platform share moral responsibility for damages done by their designated speakers / authors / experts / consultants / PR agents / legal firms / parachurch partners. For decades, survivor communities have been attempting to send this message to the powers that be. What will it take before they listen and heed the warnings?

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2019/12/31/a-cultural-geography-of-survivor-communities-part-8/

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  50. dee: How the leaders respond to this will be fascinating. Will they ignore it? We all will learn much from what

    They will ignore it if they believe it benefits them and their causes. They will do something if it is harmful to them and their causes. From what I have seen, damage to ‘others’ rarely comes into play. It is sad.

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  51. refugee: The “only women” as designated SBC survivors keeps coming back to me. We’ve heard such troubling accounts of clergy and other male authority figures abusing boys. I know conspiracy theories abound, but it really smells like a powerful abuser is heavily involved in a cover-up, either to protect self or cronies, or to enable abuse to continue unchecked.

    Paul Pressler comes to mind. I believe this was before Patterson was ousted, but I might be wrong about that. I do think they want to create a narrative where boys or men are not abused, but I have seen that narrative all along in churches. Both the molesters at SEBTS with me went after boys (one went after both, as I understand).

    Several of the most vocal survivors in that thread were male abuse victims and they were understandably mad that the SBC was pretending like male sexual abuse victims didn’t exist.

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  52. Hope: Ministry Safe? Did they not do 10 seconds of research in order to discover the dastardly warning flags strewn about?

    MinistrySafe is no better, as they are lawyers whose main interest is protecting the instutitions, not the victims (despite what they claim). Their cases are always on the side of the church. And many of the other leaders in the Caring Well conference are there to sell things. Everything about the Caring Well conference is a landmine of red flags…

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  53. I would not be able to sit idly by and allow her to get away with this. It goes beyond her hissy fits and childish rhetoric she pours on social media as a perpetual victim of everyone. This is criminal and targeted harassment because you know the truth about her. My narcissistic ex tried to pull the same stunts, using law enforcement as an extension of his bullying, but failed every time. The feigned pithy Christianese statements do nothing but provide flimsy cover for an apparently disturbed individual trying to make her mark in the world by any means necessary. This is why she came after you, you threaten her self-constructed reputation. She is no expert. She has no credentials. Who knows if she has ever seen a therapist? This is ungodly and unreal.

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  54. dee,

    No, it never happened. I asked about it many years later (when we re-established contact. Being an overseas missionary gave me some space), and she said no and went on. I was relieved, and I’ve never mentioned it again. Just to make sure, I checked in with one of our old college roommates, and she had been given the same story.

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  55. UK-based The Good Book Company (TGBC) was originally called St. Mathias Press:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Book_Company#Overseas_Distributors

    “The TGBC USA website began in February 2009, in conjunction with the Desiring God Pastor’s Conference. TGBC exhibits at large North American evangelical, reformed conferences, such as Together For the Gospel and Desiring God Pastor’s Conference…TGBC publishes works by a number of prominent evangelical leaders in the UK, the USA and Australia, including Tim Keller, Albert Mohler, Alistair Begg, Matt Chandler, Vaughan Roberts and Phillip Jensen.”

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  56. The Good Book Company’s North America Director through 2018 was 9Marksist* Brad Byrd.

    https://www.thegoodbook.com/blog/news/2018/12/04/the-good-book-company-north-america-staff-update/

    “Brad Byrd to transition from The Good Book Company to new venture spanning publishing, media and non-profit industries…The Good Book Company announces that Brad Byrd, North America Director, will transition out of the company at the end of 2018. Brad has led the company’s US organization in Virginia for the past 10 years…Brad has played a significant role in TGBC publishing some of the most respected names in the US evangelical church, including Timothy Keller, John Piper, Kathleen Nielson, and R. Albert Mohler. His work will continue to bear fruit as we launch titles by Matt and Lauren Chandler, Alistair Begg, Melissa Kruger, Randall Goodgame, and many more through the next eighteen months.”

    *Byrd served under Mark Dever as Capitol Hill Baptist’s church administrator when 9Marks was launched as the ‘Center for Church Reform’:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20000818075733/http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/Staff.htm

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  57. the current USA VP of The Good Book Company is former Crossway and SBTS bureaucrat Geoff Dennis:

    https://www.thegoodbook.com/blog/interestingthoughts/2019/06/27/the-good-book-company-welcomes-geoff-dennis/

    “In 1979 my father and mother started Crossway…I started working in the warehouse at Crossway in October of 1991…culminating in my role as EVP and COO”

    https://news.sbts.edu/2014/01/06/geoffrey-dennis-former-publishing-executive-named-development-vice-president-at-southern-seminary/

    “January 6, 2014
    Geoffrey Dennis, a former executive with evangelical publisher Crossway, has been named vice president for development at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, school officials announced…’Southern Seminary is very pleased to have Geoff Dennis joining our development team in this crucial new capacity,’ said president R. Albert Mohler Jr…’I am very glad to welcome him as a crucial member of the Southern Seminary leadership team’.”

    “During his tenure on Crossway’s Publishing Committee, Dennis was involved in the strategic development, market positioning, production and distribution of the English Standard Version Bible”

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  58. HB: This is ungodly and unreal.

    This is why I posted a link above on how to protect oneself from a malignant narcissist. It’s best to quietly walk away when possible because of how aggressive and retributive they can be. In Dee’s case there was no option to quietly walk away, which is why it is so essential that law enforcement is involved. These people will never back off until they recognize they have no hope of winning. Logic and reason do not apply and there is no way to have a reasoned discussion with them. If walking away is not an option one has to hit them very hard with all legal means available. It’s sad but true.

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  59. Ken F (aka Tweed): This is why I posted a link above on how to protect oneself from a malignant narcissist. It’s best to quietly walk away when possible because of how aggressive and retributive they can be. In Dee’s case there was no option to quietly walk away, which is why it is so essential that law enforcement is involved. These people will never back off until they recognize they have no hope of winning. Logic and reason do not apply and there is no way to have a reasoned discussion with them. If walking away is not an option one has to hit them very hard with all legal means available. It’s sad but true.

    This is the complete truth. I’ve been there, three times. Only when they lose will they stop. In their grandiose thinking, they believe they are rightly victimized when it’s their ego that is bruised, normally because of their own behavior. Praying for Dee.

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  60. Malignant narcissists are found everywhere…. they cannot be criticized and will go to crazy lengths to vindicate themselves if someone accuses them of anything….they will lie not only to cover themselves, but they will lie just for the fun of it…. it’s a bizarre disorder, but I recognize some of those things in these posts…. I was married to one for 33 years and I can spot one a mile away

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  61. elastigirl: cursory question: nature or nurture?

    Both, I think. The narcissists in my family showed those traits early. Some folks will never develop real empathy or a reliable conscience, but they can experience consequences, and change their behavior in order to avoid discomfort. I think this would take an early identification of the problem, tireless work by parents, a lot of therapy, and awareness spread among family, teachers, neighbors, and others.

    /maybe

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  62. dee: When someone reports me to the police. it is unjust and needs to be dealt with. Besides, my husband and I have concealed weapons permit.

    Just be careful. She sounds unbalanced, and legally it’s already been dealt with, ironically by her. If anything you might consider a restraining order to go with the concealed carry permit.

    But whatever you do, beware of this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFPaXjKWANE

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  63. dee: I had been thinking about writing a post which would question the vetting process for speakers, book endorsements, etc.Could it be that the leaders didn’t really care about her and instead used her to furtherer their goals? Who knows?

    Having courteously followed her on Twitter (until she blocked me without explanation, disagreemen, or even a cross word), I honestly believe that Jennifer was a logical, easy, natural choice…

    If my memory serves, she was a visible and vocal fan of all of the right guys. Additionally, Jennifer already had a strong following within women in the Evangelical Twitterverse. Given that she was obviously enamored with all the right people already, I assume this made her a safe choice; possibly sighted by predators in power as easily manipulatable, unlikely to question their motivation and actions, and likely to serve as a reliable backer for the system and leadership.

    Bottom line is this: I honestly don’t believe that Jennifer was chosen out of a Christian love for her, but for entirely system-serving reasons. In fact, I will go so far as to suggest that it is an example of the modern day exploitation of women.

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  64. Hope: I began following Jennifer Greenberg on Twitter in the Fall of 2018. Her story of abuse was heartbreaking, and I was glad to see another survivor able to speak the unspeakable.

    There was a guy, it’s gotta’ be 5 years now, who regaled TWW and two other blogs with tales of horrific abuse allegedly done by a Pastor.
    He was eventually outed as a fraud and to the best of my knowledge, nobody has seen hide nor hair of him since.

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  65. Ken F (aka Tweed):
    Could be useful to do some searches on “malignant narcissist.” There are good articles on how to identify (not diagnose) and respond to one. Like this one:
    https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-recognize-a-narcissist-4164528
    My wife and I recently had to extract ourselves from a person who behaved like one.

    Oh my, this is super helpful! I’m reading it now and, suddenly, so much about a lady I know now makes so much sense. Thank you for sharing this!

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  66. There is a skill set I learned over 30 years in private psychology practice, as a church leader getting targeted, and as a repeatedly and competently “therapied” survivor. First, one Must take steps to be safe and protected, and one Must send a clear message that certain lines cannot be crossed without pushback. Empowerment is crucial. One is saying, in effect, “I am strong and accompanied by strength, and outspoken truth is my firm defense.” (As in your post and all supportive comments.)
    Second, give this person a Good Leaving Alone! This includes in one’s own mind. Turn one’s mind deliberately away unless immediate self defense is needed again. One is saying, “Think what you want. I am moving on from this.” (As you’ve said.)
    Third is an understanding that grants mercy. As therapists we learn that certain clients seek to make others feel as they felt through their developmental years. As you’ve said—you feel attacked and afraid and exhausted and angry. Of course you do because such attacks are agonizing. I’ve experienced them. It always helped me to just read my own inner journal, know that the other person likely lives with those thoughts constantly, refuse to accept their projections, and pray mercy over their broken heart.
    God bless you with a spirit of peace and power, Dee.

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  67. Muff Potter,

    Ahhhh, you mean a woman…She’s still around but I’m steering clear. Gosh, that was an awful incident. The worst part of the whole thing is that she hurt some innocent people. I hope someday I can tell the back story. It still makes me stomach hurt.

    Also, in that situation, I kept trying to be kind along with everyone on this blog. I still blame myself for not going with my gut sooner. She upset so many people.

    This all reminds me that a small percent of reports of abuse are not true. It’s very small but I’ve been at this for 11 years. I should have expected all of this.

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  68. Dee, what a mess and I’m so troubled on multiple levels, especially unseen institutional levels behind the face of this. You know I support you 110% and I’m so glad smarter people than I am, like Brad, Amy, Jules and others are all over this with you in addition to your legal counsel.

    Something on my mind right now with this, in addition to praying for you and all survivors and advocates, is that I think many people don’t understand the responsibility involved in moving from survivor/supporter to advocate. At that level, especially when income is involved, there’s a responsibility to question/clarify discrepancies in order to insure that vulnerable people are not being used or revictimized – both the advocate themselves or those who hear them. You understand this, Dee, along with most advocates I watch and learn from. Most bend over backwards to clarify their experiences, mistakes, stances, etc. and also take time when they need it to process their own issues, which is so essential. I’m afraid many SBC leaders do not understand this responsibility and distinction though, and I hope they will wake up and understand the danger. I grieve that damage has likely already been done.

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  69. ct,

    Did you read Dee’s post? Dee explained that she tried to deal with it privately with Jenn last fall. She didn’t bring it forward publicly until she and another person were falsely reported to the police for blackmail a couple of weeks ago. Go back and read the post again, she was really forced into this position.

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  70. SH,

    “I’m afraid many SBC leaders do not understand this responsibility and distinction though”
    ++++++++++++++

    as i see it, the SBC has so much money and power (sustaining and enriching so many parties through a complex web) that the responsibility to protect both of those of things supercedes and drown out any other responsibility.

    money and power will never be compromised or sacrificed.

    logically, the SBC is wired to *not* do what is right.

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  71. ishy: … They wanted to control the narrative, and they wanted victims to seem credible but not enough to be listened to (therefore, all women) and who didn’t have stories of actual abuse within the SBC. MinistrySafe is all lawyers, not experts (despite what they claim).

    I am a victim of how women are treated in the SBC, having been forced out of seminary simply because of my gender. No matter how they might pretend otherwise to the public, they believe women are lesser and shouldn’t have voices in their circles or their families. They are teaching that at their seminaries. They are teaching founder theology at their seminaries, that there’s people who are more special in God’s eyes than others. These things should be talked about.

    But even while I was in seminary, I didn’t see all these things going on. It took me years after seminary to fully understand what was going on and how abuse has been perpetuated, protected, and covered up. I don’t blame anyone for not seeing that. And I pray that more people see it through these discussions.

    This lady got overpromoted to “serve” slick commercialism and status. I’ve come to see something similar in an even bigger denomination.

    The are those that wanted to build me up as the ultimate demolisher and I’ve got to hang back and watch the rot adopt dangerous new directions (as fashions change).

    On top of everything I listed, you & her have had to endure chronic oppression as women.

    (The grandmother I mentioned was in disgrace for having changed religion twice.)

    These organisational dynamics are so deceptive, and can easily get backing from worldly institutions.

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  72. HB:
    She is no expert. She has no credentials. Who knows if she has ever seen a therapist? This is ungodly and unreal.

    I’ve been wondering the same re therapy. I’ve not read her book, because I didn’t want to purchase a copy/support her, after having witnessed troubling behaviors on social media. (Perhaps I’ll pick up a used copy now, just to be better equipped to express the concerns I’ve had for quite a while). Does she detail any sort of therapeutic work in her book?

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  73. ct:
    am I the only one who thinks this should have been dealt with in private?it makes things so much worse to bring it publicly to this board.That’s just my opinion for what it’s worth.

    Yes, I do believe you are the only one here who thinks so. Do you not know what blog you’re at? Silencing victims is not the name of the game here! This woman is a victim of the SBC and is leaving a trail of her own victims in her wake. I can’t imagine why you would think telling about that is so much worse than the doing of it. And we all want to know about this so we can support Dee with our encouragement, love, and prayers!

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  74. ct: If she is mentally ill, then this is the last thing she needs to see is all these posts talking about her. It might have been wise to keep it between Dee, the police (who clearly didn’t believe Jennifer Greenberg), and Dee’s lawyers.

    So let’s imagine it’s your day off, ct, and you find out that the police want to talk to you about a criminal charge against you. Then you, ct, find out that this completely invented charge is a topic online, where your character is being torn asunder over something you did not do.

    Would you, ct, really keep quiet about that to protect the accuser? Would you, ct, let everybody in town assume that you were staying quiet because it was all true?

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  75. This is some personality disorder kind of stuff. This person needs to sort this out with a professional who can help her. She has no right to be harassing and threatening people over differences of opinion. You can bet there is a whole trail of similar conflicts in this person’s life. The SBC bears the responsibility for the whole mess, they should never have put her in this situation. They did not act responsibly. What are they going to do about it now? If she does something rash as she is implying, the share in the blame.

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  76. ct,

    ct, how can you “keep” this between Dee, Greenberg and the police when it has already been spread far and wide? You didn’t have the internet in your day but it is here now and there’s no going back. I think Dee needed to get this out in the open, trouble thrives in secrecy. The SBC took an unstable person and put her in a situation over her head. Do they not vet people at all? What were they thinking? Are they egging her on? Are they providing support/therapy? Yes, they are responsible. The Bible is clear not to lay hands on someone without doing due diligence. There is no way that they did.

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  77. Debra Tarleton: Malignant narcissists are found everywhere….

    Just look for the Angel of Light(TM).
    The One everyone praises for their Concern and Compassion(TM).
    The One who’s so Polite, so Serene, so Perfect in Every Way.
    The One who everyone says “Why Can’t You Be Like Him?”
    The One Who Always Wins.

    “Go ahead and squeal, TattleTale! Nobody will ever believe you! Because you’re just The Crazy Kid and I’m the Sweet Little Angel!”

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  78. Bridget: They will ignore it if they believe it benefits them and their causes. They will do something if it is harmful to them and their causes. From what I have seen, damage to ‘others’ rarely comes into play.

    “THERE IS NO YOU,
    THERE IS ONLY ME!
    THERE IS NO YOU,
    THERE IS ONLY ME!
    THERE IS NO F’IN YOU!
    THERE IS ONLY MEEEEE!”
    — Nine Inch Nails

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  79. ct

    You have violated posting rules. I found your comments rude so I went back and explored your time here. You have been using different names, etc. You are now in permanent moderation and will most likely not be allowed to comment, depending if you can clean up your act.

    How dare you suggest that this is taken care of by the police and lawyers. First, you have no idea what the police told me. I did not discuss that here. I do have concern for the welfare of the other victim of Greenberg and I can truthfully say that I’m glad I live way far away from her. Finally, I have one lawyer.

    You are rude and inconsiderate. You didn’t show an ounce of concern for me or for the other victim of Greenberg. You are not welcome here.

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  80. Hea3: Does she detail any sort of therapeutic work in her book?

    For the record, the current SBC leadership (and many of past leadership) are strongly anti-therapy. They support nouthetic counseling, or “biblical” counseling, which mainly places blame on the victim for their own trauma. This follows hypercalvinist theology, which teaches that we get every terrible thing we deserve, including bad treatment by churches. Though, somehow, “proper” theology pastors and leaders should not share that same burden in their theology, no matter how terrible they act.

    I agree with SiteSeer that Greenberg, and other victims, should be supported by the SBC in terms of therapy, but I wouldn’t trust them to provide it.

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  81. William: I was present. I don’t recall much of what Moore said but will never forget what Susan Codone ( not “Cordone”) said.

    That’s encouraging. I know there were multiple panels, and I don’t remember now which particular one the messenger was talking about (not sure if I knew then), but I do remember him being upset at Moore’s interruptions of the women on the panel. As I did not attend either the convention (since I’m no longer Southern Baptist) nor the rally, I was more of a witness to that Twitter discussion.

    But even if Cordone and others were able to make some good points, I still question the SBC leadership on their use of victims and experts and the ends they wish to achieve. I suspect Caring Well is more about selling well and getting MinistrySafe into churches to silence victims with NDAs more than preventing abuse.

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  82. ishy,

    I will add that it’s clear to me that most SBC leaders think they are the most brilliant people to walk the face of the earth and we are lucky to hear them speak. Well, I’ve heard nearly all of that group speak (Mohler, Moore, Ware, Piper, etc), and they way overestimate their excellence. Moore and Stetzer should have never assumed to be experts on sexual abuse, having no education on it and assuming they are not victims (beacuse they do not speak of being victims).

    These are men that do not learn from others because they don’t think they need to but like to play expert on whatever subject is most popular at the time. They would be better off listening more and speaking less.

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  83. ishy,

    It is my experience that “these types of leaders” core belief is that the “best truth” comes from scripture, and not “secular humanism”. Since they think they are “experts” on scripture, and “their interpretation” of scripture is the “correct one”, of course they do not need to listen, they ARE the experts…

    This is how I was trained by a fundamentalist church/school… we Could go on and on about the fallacy of this argument, but That is how it was taught to me..

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  84. Jeffrey Chalmers: Since they think they are “experts” on scripture, and “their interpretation” of scripture is the “correct one”, of course they do not need to listen, they ARE the experts…

    I think you are right. But if you look more at their actual qualifications, they end up falling short compared to other scholars. For example, Mohler is seminary president because he was chief of fundraising at SBTS, not because of his excellent academic credentials. He does have a PhD, but I doubt he was chosen for his job because of academics.

    Furthermore, I would question anyone who was mostly educated in an SBC seminary. Both Mohler and Moore did their advanced degrees at SBC seminaries. At least Moore went to a fairly good undergrad school (Ole Miss), while Mohler went to Samford, a small Baptist college. Neither are original language scholars.

    The best Bible scholars have studied under multiple schools, have extensively studied the original languages, and can concede other viewpoints. That many of these SBC leaders have not done so is worrisome and frankly, not very surprising given their limited viewpoints. It’s especially problematic to me the way followers do not question Mohler’s views or educational background at all and think everything he says is the most brilliant thing they’ve ever heard.

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  85. ishy,

    “I think they intentionally chose a female panel expert so they could control the narrative. Even many non New Cal men in the SBC would listen to a man’s uneducated opinion over a woman who is an expert.”
    ++++++++++++

    ooooh, i smell success with that one! what a great plan!

    good grief…

    unfortunately, this is true, and goes far beyond the SBC. what a ridiculous and sad commentary. how many parts embarrassing, moronic, infuriating, revolting…

    thankfully, it is mutating away, like other unnecessary and unhelpful things.

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  86. ishy,

    “it’s clear to me that most SBC leaders think they are the most brilliant people to walk the face of the earth and we are lucky to hear them speak. Well, I’ve heard nearly all of that group speak (Mohler, Moore, Ware, Piper, etc), and they way overestimate their excellence.

    Moore and Stetzer should have never assumed to be experts on sexual abuse, having no education on it…

    These are men that do not learn from others because they don’t think they need to but like to play expert on whatever subject is most popular at the time.”
    +++++++++++++

    “Hail the conquering hero!” as they swoop in to save the day — all the while hijacking the little people’s work and claiming it as their own in the process.

    gawwwwwwwwd…
    .
    .
    i think i’ll make and extra big bumper sticker and have your entire comment printed on it.

    Then take a very fun road trip drive all around Texas, Kentucky, and Tennessee, going very slowly in places like Louisville, Franklin, Nashville.

    (and then i could experience these things i’ve heard about, like country ham, kentucky coffee, hickory nut pie,…)

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  87. ishy,

    “It’s especially problematic to me the way followers do not question Mohler’s views or educational background at all and think everything he says is the most brilliant thing they’ve ever heard.”
    +++++++++++++++

    …cultivated by fancy cars, drivers, and velvet ropes to keep the rifraff at a safe distance and out of his path.

    the only thing missing is a cardboard burgerking crown on his head. (i’m sure i’ve got one somewhere in my box of childhood memorabilia)

    ridiculous.

    calculated, of course. but utterly ridiculous.

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  88. Dee,

    So sorry to hear that you’ve been going through things like this. And I’m sorry for not getting in touch earlier — last week was long and difficult for me in many ways. But I’ve been following your Twitter feed, and you’ve been in my prayers.

    With truth on your side, I hope that this will all die down, and you’ll get some peace.

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  89. dee: If you ever find out anything about the process, could you send it to me or give me the name of someone who might speak with me?

    Hi Dee. I put a call in for the Sergeant and his wife – we’re friends. I’ll get back to you as soon as he contacts me. God bless. Authentication and handling of survivors was a major part of his career, particularly as he worked with a very large and prestigious public high school. He recently retired, but he is full of insights.

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  90. CM,

    I wish I understood Greenberg. Ive received a few messages expressing concern for my well being after confronting her in this way.Ti be frank, I don’t know if I’m safe.i don’t think anyone who knows her can reassure me either. Yet, currently she is the SBC Caring Well expert and the Ministry Safe expert. I think some folks may have ignored some red flags.

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  91. Dee,

    The best thing to do is be prepared to deal with the worst possible contingency. Notify your local LEO departments, be more aware of your surroundings, etc. I hate to ask, but do you and your spouse have concealed carry permits (assuming it is required for your state)? If you have not been to the range in some time (and hopefully they will open up soon in wake of COVID-19), you may want to get some practice in.

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  92. This alleged move by Greenberg was the one that broke my heart. I couldn’t believe that she would attempt to interfere with trafficked victims getting needed medical and dental care.

    Any and all collateral damage is acceptable when “I AM RIGHT!!!!” is at stake.

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  93. ishy: For example, Mohler is seminary president because he was chief of fundraising at SBTS, not because of his excellent academic credentials. He does have a PhD, but I doubt he was chosen for his job because of academics.

    It’s also often who you know, which brings to mind molar and the Dodeka supper club. Wonder if White ever had a similar supper club experience in his school days…

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/06/15/is-sbts-president-al-mohler-a-racist-guest-post-by-todd-wilhelm/

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  94. JDV: brings to mind molar and the Dodeka supper club

    Surely there is someone out there who really knows what went on in that secret society at SBTS. I suspect that supper had very little to do with it … with products like molar, there must have been something going on that was more sinister than Southern cooking.

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  95. ishy,
    Catching up late, but I think you’re right that they purposefully left out male victims. It’s interesting to think about why, because they weren’t easily blamable (they can always find a reason to blame women/girls) or dismissible? Because they wanted to avoid any talk about male/male relations, even when an individual was a child?

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  96. JDV: It’s also often who you know, which brings to mind molar and the Dodeka supper club. Wonder if White ever had a similar supper club experience in his school days…

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2018/06/15/is-sbts-president-al-mohler-a-racist-guest-post-by-todd-wilhelm/

    I thought of that as well, along with his early involvement with the Founders.

    I doubt most of these guys came to their beliefs by studying the Bible, despite what they might say. I think they had them way before they ever went to seminary.

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  97. Lea,

    “It’s interesting to think about why, because they weren’t easily blamable (they can always find a reason to blame women/girls) or dismissible? Because they wanted to avoid any talk about male/male relations, even when an individual was a child?”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    …because, based on observation, they view homosexuality as the most heinous of all sins.

    sexual abuse of a female child, minor, or adult is, well, bad, but…. they have their sin schedule. (logically, it seems out of necessity that they have to close their eyes to sexual abuse of males and somehow pretend they don’t see it, even to themselves)

    (i think it’s more than this, though. i think sexuality is more fluid than they can possibly admit, without everything they’ve built their lives and reputations on falling apart.

    A fluidity they may sense in themselves to some degree, and which terrifies them. A fluidity which, in my view, is nothing to be afraid or ashamed of.)

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  98. Lea: It’s interesting to think about why, because they weren’t easily blamable (they can always find a reason to blame women/girls) or dismissible? Because they wanted to avoid any talk about male/male relations, even when an individual was a child?

    It is terrible, but I think all of them are true, along with other reasons like they can’t admit that they are not as moral as they claim. Women can be dismissed in their world, men have to be heterosexual and married, and they are God’s specially chosen vessels for His every word on earth.

    I think they believe that their constant claims that marriage solves all problems of lust would fracture should they admit that it doesn’t even with a few bad apples.

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  99. Since Greenberg posted her Open Letter to the OPC, I have followed her on Facebook as a Facebook friend, since I am now in the same circles within the PCA that she’s in. She mentioned a pastor in her letter that I’m familiar with and it concerned me. She and I have mutual friends, and my boyfriend was in the same OPC circles that Greenberg was in – both of them as kids. I have no doubt that something happened to Michelle. But there’s something off now. She claims to have been sexually assaulted at several different times in her life – her father, a piano teacher, youth leaders, friends’ fathers. How many times has Michelle truly been assaulted?

    While I’ve been following this blog for years (since 2010 or so), I’m tired. I’m fortunate enough to have never been sexually assaulted (unless you count a drunk gay man lifting me up onto a washing machine and pretending to hump me for a solid 2 minutes – it was weird) and I can’t imagine the emotional torture someone goes through dealing with that. But, is everyone really telling the truth that comes forward? 75% of divorced women claim their ex husbands were abusive. Is this true? Or is it more plausible that many of them are lying?

    I’ve vowed that if I’m ever assaulted, I’m coming forward as soon as I can. We need to encourage the women in our lives to come forward AS SOON AS they are abused, no matter the cost. Why? Because when years pass, evidence fades or disappears, witnesses and corroborated stories are forgotten. Take pictures, go to the police, and tell as many people as will listen. Stop letting your emotions keep you from reporting.

    I realize this is a bit of stream of consciousness and I’m rambling. I just wish people would seek to be as truthful as possible.

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  100. Lea: Oooh! I just finished a long podcast series about that book! crazy stuff

    And a major “accelerant” (in the arson investigation sense) of The Satanic Panic.

    I remember even levelheaded talk-show host Rich Buhler getting taken in by the accompanying “recovered memory” dogma going around at the time. (With accompanying Conspiracy Theories.)

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  101. elastigirl: A fluidity they may sense in themselves to some degree, and which terrifies them. A fluidity which, in my view, is nothing to be afraid or ashamed of.)

    It’s as old as the Fall:

    9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

    10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

    11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?…

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  102. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Speaking of the Satanic Panic, I wonder what happened with “former Satanist” Mike Warnke after he was outed as a fraud in the early 1990s? As I understand it, him and “former Satanist John Todd (deceased) got into a scuffle at an appearance regarding the theft of the acct. But it may be urban legend.

    I remember all that Satanist conspiracy stuff from the late 1970s and early 1980s and all the various prosecutions (both legit and malicious) around the “satanist” child abuse (the McMartin Preschool Trial being the most famous). Old “Shake and Bake” Janet Reno got her start as a prosecutor in this era, and she had a few malicious child abuse prosecutions as well.

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  103. Megan: 75% of divorced women claim their ex husbands were abusive. Is this true? Or is it more plausible that many of them are lying?

    I’m sorry what? I’ve never heard this statistic and it sounds off. I just looked on one site and it said 25%, which seems quite a bit more plausible. Don’t accuse women of lying based on a mistaken impression…

    I have read that women who allege abuse are *more* likely to be penalized by judges for it then if they hadn’t mentioned it at all which is incredibly disturbing.

    I think it’s pretty clear that abuse is far more common than any of us realize.

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  104. ishy: NC NOw:
    Dunning-Kruger Effect
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    “The competent students underestimated their class rank, and the incompetent students overestimated theirs, but the incompetent students did not estimate their class rank as higher than the ranks estimated by the competent group”
    – – –
    Fascinating!

    I have a series of posts about this topic at my blog, and ones related to it.

    How Cognitive Bias Leads People to Believe That They Are Far Superior to Others Than They Actually Are
    https://missdaisyflower.wordpress.com/2019/10/03/%E2%80%A2-how-cognitive-bias-leads-people-to-believe-that-they-are-far-superior-to-others-than-they-actually-are/

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  105. K Ann:
    So sorry you and other abuse survivors are going through this traumatic abuse by a “so called” advocate.

    Jennifer Greenberg needs therapy and not a platform from the SBC or any other church. Her story has way too many holes in it and is contradictory. 9 years ago, she said her father never raped her, seriously injured her, and God protected her from anything truly sinister. 3 years ago on her website, she says her dad only molested her once. Then in 2018 started saying her dad raped her at 3 years old.Now this year, she changed her story again to say he raped her at 2. Elsewhere she states her father sexually abused her for 20+ years. None of it adds up…

    I just read the preview pages of her book on Amazon. It seems to me that in her book, she says that her father did not physically sexually assault her when she was a teen…but that he viewed violent teen porn on her computer with her in the room…which of course IS a type of sexual abuse…but…

    Pedophiles are generally very age specific. It doesn’t make sense that he would rape her at 2 or 3…but then be watching teen porn. Nor does it make sense that he would only rape her once at 2 or 3…and then not continue abusing her for a period of a few years until she “aged out” of his preferred age bracket.

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  106. Megan:
    But, is everyone really telling the truth that comes forward?75% of divorced women claim their ex husbands were abusive.Is this true?Or is it more plausible that many of them are lying?

    I’m curious where you got the 75% stat from? I’ve done some web surfing…and can’t find any stats on how many divorced women say their ex was abusive.

    Of course SOME are lying. But I don’t think it’s many. People consistently under-report their own abuse. In one study of domestic violence, 4 times as many women answered questions that indicated their partners had displayed behavior towards them that fit an objective definition of abuse as actually described their partners as abusing them. That is…a woman would answer questions like “has your partner ever coerced you to have sex” as “yes,” but then in the same survey say their partner was not sexually abusive. I’ve talked to women myself who describe things their husbands have done to them…and when I say “it is abusive when your husband does X, Y, or Z” they are in absolute shock. They simply didn’t know.

    http://www.sofi.su.se/polopoly_fs/1.74432.1328265268!/menu/standard/file/Pablo_Brassiolo.pdf

    In another study, 40% of divorced men admitted to displaying abusive behavior towards their ex-wife AFTER they got divorced. If so many would admit to displaying abusive behavior after the divorce…how many more were abusive, and just didn’t admit it? How many more were abusive prior to the divorce…but found a new target after the divorce? http://www.ncdsv.org/images/Separationdivorcesexualassault.pdf

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  107. Jenn R: Of course SOME are lying. But I don’t think it’s many.

    I understand it’s a low percentage, just enough to discredit genuine stories of abuse.

    And such false stories about abuse generally have other indicators. I understand they tend to cluster around nasty divorce/revenge feuds and said liars show other signs of Abusive Personality themselves – Attention Getting, Manipulation, Sociopathy. That said, the most successful of abusers are those with the best Angel of Light camouflage paint, so it might take some doing to spot the bogus stories.

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  108. Jenn: Pedophiles are generally very age specific.

    That’s why there is actually a distinction between “pedophiles” and “ehebefiles”.
    * Pedophiles go after PRE-pubescents, i.e. visibly “little kids”.
    * Ehebephiles go after POST-pubescents that are still legally underage, what used to be called “Jail Bait”.
    * I would not be surprised if some of both target specific age ranges within the two above classifications.

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  109. Lea: Yes, one of the cohosts is writing a book on the satanic panic!

    I LIVED through the Satanic Panic. Kept my head down, but it was still like the boarding scene that kicked off (the original) Star Wars, Threepio tottering through the middle of a firefight with tracers flying all around him, missing him by the narrowest of margins.

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  110. Headless Unicorn Guy: I understand they tend to cluster around nasty divorce/revenge feuds

    That ‘nasty divorce’ bit – I haven’t seen any data on that (and how an accusation is deemed ‘false’ is important here), but there was an article that said women are routinely disbelieved and penalized by judges if they mention abuse at all in custody cases. That’s not really an outcome we want or one that is best for kids!

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