Is SBTS President Al Mohler a Racist? – Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm

“It seems those who became Dodeka members were placed on the fast track for advancement to influential positions within the Southern Baptist denomination.”

Todd Wilhelm

https://twitter.com/albertmohler?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Albert Mohler – Twitter

For those who attended or streamed the SBC meeting in Dallas earlier this week, there was a no mistaking the theme of the 2018 gathering – racial reconciliation.

https://twitter.com/jdgreear/status/1007037848430825472/photo/1They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and pictured here are the newly-elected Southern Baptist leaders.

SBC president J.D. Greear (center) is flanked by 2nd V.P. Felix Carbrera (on the left) and 1st V.P. A.B. Vines (on the right).

It’s been 50 years since the tragic death of Martin Luther King, and it appears that SBC leaders are utilizing this important anniversary to demonstrate to a watching world that they are now ‘color blind’. Are these Southern Baptist leaders sincerely apologetic for the SBC’s history of racism?

Our friend Todd Wilhelm has just posted some fascinating information that has left us scratching our heads…

Does Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, realize the mixed signals he has been sending via social media? The seminary which he has led for these 25 years has a dark history when it comes to slavery and racism. Instead of appearing to glorify it, we believe he should be addressing the seminary’s history openly and honestly.

Here is Todd Wilhelm’s post, which he has given us permission to share with our readers. We found it quite thought-provoking in light of what just occurred at the SBC gathering in Dallas.


Is SBTS President Al Mohler a Racist?

Todd Wilhelm

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/#commentshttps://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/

Below is a Tweet I published a few months ago. Albert Mohler is standing proudly with a portrait of Confederate Captain John Broadus. I included a quote from Captain Broadus. The chapel at Southern Seminary is named after Captain John Broadus!

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/

Below are a couple of Tweets I captured from Albert Mohler and Rick Holland, but first read the quote from James P. Boyce.

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/One may legitimately question why these men are paying tribute to men who held such views of slavery and blacks.  Yet Al Mohler does not appear to have any sense of disconnect with the words he wrote at the top of this article and his actions which appear to be in direct contradiction to what he wrote.

I have come to expect this from Mohler.  He is great at saying all the right things, but his actions indicate his words are hollow.  I present you with Exhibit “A” and “B”.

I am still waiting for Mohler to renounce his support of C.J. Mahaney and specifically call for an independent investigation of the sexual abuse scandal and cover-up which occurred in Mahaney’s SGM denomination.

 

Now we have further evidence of Albert Mohler’s hollow words on racial equality.

On May 10, 2018, an interesting video appeared on YouTube. In the video, Paige Patterson revealed that Albert Mohler was a member of a secret organization on the campus of Southern Seminary called “Dodeka.” This secret society was an elitist club for whites only. Those who were extended an invitation to join Dodeka were judged to be the best and brightest young men among those pursuing their Master’s degree at Southern Seminary.

Gregory Wills, Southern Baptist church historian, in his book “Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1859-2009,” verified the existence of the secret society Dodeka at Southern Seminary. He wrote:

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/

It seems those who became Dodeka members were placed on the fast track for advancement to influential positions within the Southern Baptist denomination. This confirms what Alex Grecian stated about secret societies in an article he wrote for the Huffington Post. Speaking in general terms about secret societies,  Grecian stated:

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/

Below is the first video of two that I recorded from a YouTube video titled “Tea Talk With Dottie P. – Episode 1.” I made copies of the video because it has been my experience that videos like this frequently disappear from YouTube. If you wish to view the video on YouTube here is the link.

Paige Patterson does most of the talking – nothing unusual there!

In the second video (below) Patterson is asked whether W.A. Criswell or Herschel Hobbs were members of Dodeka. He responded that neither men were. Patterson is in error about Herschel Hobbs and while I cannot confirm whether W.A. Criswell was a member of Dodeka, based on his strong friendship with Herschel Hobbs it would not surprise me if W.A. Criswell was also a member.

David S. Dockery, in “The Life and Legacy of Herschel H. Hobbs (1907-1995)” wrote: [page 75 – top of right column]

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/

At the 27:00 mark, a female seminary student asks Al Mohler about ‘Dodeka’. at the 30:00 mark, Mohler provides his response.

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/

What did take place at those Dodeka meetings? It’s hard to say without the testimony of an actual member. One interesting thing my blog partner, Janna, found was the cryptic add below placed in the Louisville newspaper in 1959.

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/

I really do not know what to make of the ad. David Hoy was at one time a student at Bob Jones University and Southern Seminary.  After his schooling there he completely shed any vestiges of Christianity and became involved in the occult. Below is some information about Hoy.

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/

https://thouarttheman.org/2018/06/12/is-sbts-president-albert-mohler-a-racist/


Comments

Is SBTS President Al Mohler a Racist? – Guest Post by Todd Wilhelm — 160 Comments

  1. A bit of info on The Glass House restaurant. Interesting name. I wonder what year it closed…

    http://www.bgdailynews.com/community/turnpike-s-glass-house-restaurants-a-memory/article_8107e0f0-47f6-5c68-966a-ea72614a7fc5.html

    “At the Lebanon Junction exit was a large service plaza in the median with a beautiful restaurant known as the Glass House. With lots of expansive glass windows encased in a brick structure, the Glass House enticed travelers and local residents.

    Built in 1956 when the Kentucky Turnpike opened, it was not a grab-and-go eatery. The restaurant was a special place to eat, especially on Sundays after church. There always seemed to be a wait to get a table.

    Wearing pristine white uniforms with a black apron tied around the waist and capped off with a little bow hairpiece, the professional appearance of each waitress added a touch of class to the Glass House.

    The plazas were eventually closed, and the expansion of I-65 erased everything but the memories of the Glass House.”

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  2. Some organizations, though they accept accolades, loyalty, money, and volunteerism from the masses, operate with a “secret society” at the helm. Doesn’t take much to elevate oneself above others – just a touch of pride. And for a society to evolve, those elevated individuals find each other, kindred spirits.

    Christians are to be “set apart”. Not being better than, just having a different set of values and headed in a different direction and on top of it, inviting everyone we meet to join. Nothing secret about it.

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  3. The original twelve had quite a ride – one on an island called Patmos, others martyred. They didn’t keep secrets, paid a price, and were rewarded posthumously. God’s pet kids.

    Not sure this group of twelve fits the picture. It’s upside down really, to elevate oneself instead of humble oneself.

    The kids in the neighborhood have secret clubs that pass by middle school. College guys doing this? Arrested development. Maybe they envision the G7 or something, that they will run the world. LOL. Good luck with that one.

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  4. Don’t know, TBH. I’ll maybe look into it, but I can’t promise – I’ve a lot of Spring MVC to do this weekend. That said, if Deebs can combine all the blog ministry they do with very full lives, maybe I should just pull my finger out and get on with it.

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  5. jyjames:
    Some organizations, though they accept accolades, loyalty, money, and volunteerism from the masses, operate with a “secret society” at the helm. Doesn’t take much to elevate oneself above others – just a touch of pride. And for a society to evolve, those elevated individuals find each other, kindred spirits.

    Christians are to be “set apart”. Not being better than, just having a different set of values and headed in a different direction and on top of it, inviting everyone we meet to join. Nothing secret about it.

    IMO it has the feel of the “iron law of institutions”, that the officers of institutions tend to use the institutions to advance their own interests rather than spend themselves in service of the institutional mission.

    Combine that with Jesus’ costly call to the would-be great in the Kingdom, to “become the servant of all”. Bad leadership tends to crowd out good (unless perhaps at some point the led wake up and revolt; perhaps that day is dawning).

    To be fair, this probably has been going on since shortly after the passing of the last of the apostles, or even before that; Paul’s pastoral admonitions about overseers — “not lovers of filthy lucre”, for example — seem to be targeted at instances of self-seeking by “office”-holders, though perhaps he was simply foreseeing the inevitable.

    “How long, O Lord?”

    I wonder whether the answer may be

    “Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged,…”

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  6. Lowlandseer: Albert Mohler addressed the issue of the views of the founders of SBTS several years ago.

    He tries to have it both ways. He praised the racist SBTS founders for their orthodox beliefs, and yet he also wrote this:

    To put the matter plainly, one cannot simultaneously hold to an ideology of racial superiority and rightly present the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    By that standard, the SBTS founders did not rightly present the gospel of Jesus Christ. What is he really trying to say?

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  7. Ken F (aka Tweed): He tries to have it both ways.He praised the racist SBTS founders for their orthodox beliefs, and yet he also wrote this:

    To put the matter plainly, one cannot simultaneously hold to an ideology of racial superiority and rightly present the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    By that standard, the SBTS founders did not rightly present the gospel of Jesus Christ. What is he really trying to say?

    SBC founders tended toward calvinist/predestinarian soteriology. I would think that a “strong sovereignty” conception of God’s governance of the world (coupled, of course, with the culturally accommodative stance of OT law on some subjects [slavery, and also divorce], must have helped the founders to have a clear conscience about their views on slavery. In the best of all possible worlds, the world that God has decreed shall be, race relations are as they ought to be.

    What has changed? The calvinist resurgence embraces a very strong vision of God’s sovereignty, and the OT bondservant laws are what they are. What is the theological basis for their call for racial reconciliation? Surely they aren’t channelling Gregory of Nyssa.

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  8. “I believe I see in all this the end of slavery. I believe we are cutting its throat, curtailing its domain. And I have been, and am, an ultra pro-slavery man.” (James P. Boyce, founder, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)

    Al Mohler idolizes Boyce. His 1993 convocation address at SBTS oozed with Boyce. He declared in that speech his desire to take SBTS back to the Boyce days. Boyce was a Calvinist. A young Al Mohler evidently wanted to be just like James Boyce when he grew up. Perhaps the spirit of Boyce is upon him!

    Deb, for additional info on Mohler’s affection for Boyce and his ways, see: http://equip.sbts.edu/article/dont-just-do-something-stand-there/?utm_source=feedly

    Hi Wartburgers. Just doing a little trolling this morning before I go work on various outdoor projects. Enjoy the weekend. Happy Father’s Day.

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  9. Oh my. I am not liking what is going on in the ragged outskirts of my thinking, but Deb may be onto something. Lebanon Junction would be a good place for some secret society, or secret anything, to meet. Restaurant or no restaurant.

    I think that Deb may be onto something specifically about the occult. My daddy was into some stuff which had enough symptoms and clues of occultism that we all noticed it, and he repeatedly mentioned Lebanon Junction. He never said why Lebanon Junction of all places, but he refused to drive us out there, and never offered any explanation. His people were from Bullitt County, Shepherdsville actually, but he had no relatives that I know of in Lebanon Junction. That place is one of those places that you have to slow down or you would miss it. I have told the story before of encountering an evil spiritual presence in his house after he died-and I just don’t do that-but I did do that. His mother, who lived with us thought she could hear ‘haunts’ talking in the background sometimes. Some ‘literature’ was found in his house when we cleaned it out. There were weird things going on, but there could be more than one possible explanation.

    My daughter’s first husband’s missionary parents thought that evil can have areas of concentration based on a mention in scripture which seems to say that, and they thought they had identified one such spot in their host country. I thought that was just silly. But Daddy was clearly into something which included some sexual ‘stuff’ for sure and which had some evidemces of possibly the occult, and what was it with Daddy and Lebanon Junction of all places. Why repeatedly mention it for no apparent reason?

    Dear goodness I do hope that I am not losing my mind. Dementia of old age? Nah, I was not the only one who noticed this. Brain metastasis and not just bone only? Possibly. Willingness to put the pieces of the puzzle together now what I am at a stage in life where I have nothing to lose? Probably. Is evil becoming more apparent to ‘mainline’ people at some current era in our nation/world–bible verses on request you know.

    At this point I care not what religion thinks. Or my fellow man thinks. There are unexplained things, clues, and whether I like the implications or not, there are clues to something or other.

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  10. Ken F (aka Tweed): To put the matter plainly, one cannot simultaneously hold to an ideology of racial superiority and rightly present the gospel of Jesus Christ. (Al Mohler)

    By that standard, the SBTS founders did not rightly present the gospel of Jesus Christ. (Ken F)

    The Greek word for that is “Gotcha.” It is commonly used when someone is found to be speaking out of both sides of his mouth.

    Founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were pro-slavery and/or slave-holding pastors and deacons, Calvinistic in belief – including founders of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (Boyce and Broadus). They believed that sovereign God was on their side during the Civil War until early Confederate victories turned to defeat. After the War, Southern Baptists began to distance themselves from the reformed faith of the founders. They remained distinctly non-Calvinist for 150 years, until Al Mohler came along to drag them back to their roots without asking them if it was OK.

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  11. okrapod,

    Oh my! It was a railroad town, so named because it was the junction between the main line of the Louisville and Nashville railroad.

    It’s no telling who passed through that sleepy little town back in the day…

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  12. From a check David Hoy was skilled at stage magic who used his skills to make people believe he was reading their minds. For instance he created the “Tossed out Deck” trick. He also claimed to be a psychic and charged for it; however, given his known abilities at fooling people I suspect he found being a psychic was more profitable than being a stage magician. He died back in 1981 aged 50.

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  13. Deb:
    okrapod,

    Oh my! It was a railroad town, so named because it was the junction between the main line of the Louisville and Nashville railroad.

    It’s no telling who passed through that sleepy little town back in the day…

    “… slow down or you would miss it…..”
    Yep. Betcha I’ve blown by Lebanon Junction more than 100 times on I-65, and never noticed it.
    Sheperdsville is another thing entirely – the Waffle House there has good coffee, even at 2:00 am!

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  14. Max,

    Ah, Max! I was hoping you couldn’t stay away!
    PS – you know that one of the most Godly men you know (your wife) would be very welcome here, too!

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  15. I’m not sure where David Hoy was born, but he lived most of his later life in Paducah, KY. He lived in a seriously creepy big house on Jefferson Street. It’s odd, but there is very little info about him online, and I don’t know why he settled in Paducah.

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  16. Deb: It’s no telling who passed through that sleepy little town back in the day…

    Sometimes towns like that have a history.

    Some of Mom’s people retired out in the California desert not far from Palm Springs and Desert Hot Springs. They used to take us to a restaurant which was a former hangout of movie people. The story was that back in the day the public would not tolerate from stars the kind of behavior which we now accept and that area was a focal point for people to have a second home and an alternative life style. They drove me around to see some of the former homes. Sex and drugs were the big attraction. There is a famous drug rehab center at the local hospital built and paid for by some movie bigs. They drove me by there-this is not a fable.

    Lebanon Junction with its acceptable distance from Louisville and its proximity to Fort Knox and its obvious economic woes would have met the criteria for such an escape place for questionable parties and meetings and such.

    We know a formal wear shop in a town about 25-30 miles from Raleigh which has a significant clientele of cross dressers from Raleigh who go out of town to buy ladies clothes for men-for a degree of privacy or so the shop owner told us.

    This stuff goes on. Get out of town for privacy or secrecy.

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  17. okrapod: Dear goodness I do hope that I am not losing my mind. Dementia of old age? Nah, I was not the only one who noticed this. Brain metastasis and not just bone only? Possibly. Willingness to put the pieces of the puzzle together now what I am at a stage in life where I have nothing to lose? Probably. Is evil becoming more apparent to ‘mainline’ people at some current era in our nation/world–bible verses on request you know.

    At this point I care not what religion thinks. Or my fellow man thinks. There are unexplained things, clues, and whether I like the implications or not, there are clues to something or other.

    So, the long reply I crafted just up and disappeared, like smoke beneath my fingers. It happens, I guess. Anyway, let me just assure you that you are not losing your mind. A serious survey of both the well-documented existence and history of Secret Societies leads an honest student to acknowledge that they have always been and remain ‘alive and well’. They long ago learned to seek cover under name of benevolent organizations, ranging from supper clubs, reading societies, fraternities to NGO’s. Make what you like of it, but you are not losing your mind. But many will tell you that you are. 😉

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  18. okrapod: Some of Mom’s people retired out in the California desert not far from Palm Springs and Desert Hot Springs.

    I don’t suppose you have ever heard of the Laurel Canyon area near LA? Where LSD was tested by passing it around like candy and the latest trends and ‘crazy’ behavior of the Hollywood set originated? (I’m guessing there was a direct route from Laurel Canyon to Palm Springs.) Lotsa household names lived there at one time or another, including many of the celebrities that died young after lives wasted on sex and drugs. It was the home of Manson’s murders, and many other bizarrely ugly incidents, accidents and deaths. Lots of history there, but we are all supposed to believe such things are random and unconnected. Ah, if only the #metoo movement had existed in those days. You wouldn’t dare become a Conspiracy Theorist in your old age, now would you?

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  19. okrapod: There are unexplained things, clues, and whether I like the implications or not, there are clues to something or other.

    I’m with you, okrapod. It takes courage to go down the rabbit hole, and wisdom to keep from getting spooky and weird. Maybe it’s just that evil and warped people tend to find other evil and warped people like themselves, along with some gullible people that they can turn. But I suspect that evil activities tend to shape the places where they happen, and alter the “environment.”

    Here’s a photo of the Glass House. People who meet in glass houses shouldn’t join secret societies.
    https://bullittcountyhistory.org/memories/images/glasshouse.jpg

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  20. Questions: Does Dodeka still exist? IF NOT, When did it go out of existence?

    Given the background of Southern Seminary and the SBC – it naturally would have been whites only up to the 1950s to maybe even the 1970s. Is there any evidence that it was inherently such (such as bylaws banning blacks, comments by members against blacks ever becoming members, etc.)? Where is the smoking gun that this was inherently a racist organization?

    Yes Mohler should provide more details.

    The above remarks should not be construed as a defense of Dodeka. There is a bad feel or odor to such a thing existing at Christian seminary.

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  21. ION: Cricket

    Australia are currently 91-2 off 17.4 overs (which is an odd time for a drinks break, but still – we’re just in from climbing so I may’ve missed something). They’re chasing England’s 342-8. This match could go either way, certainly…

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  22. okrapod: At this point I care not what religion thinks. Or my fellow man thinks. There are unexplained things, clues, and whether I like the implications or not, there are clues to something or other.

    Novelist Stephen King dwells at length on door ways to parallel worlds in his Gunslinger book series.

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  23. Is Albert Mohler a racist? Honestly, I don’t know. I’d never heard of Dodeka until recently. Then again, I’m not a Southern Baptist. I also don’t come from the school of thought which equates all things Confederate with racism. Yes, the South has a shameful, racist past, but there was also plenty of racism elsewhere in the country. I won’t belabor that point further as that’s not the main point of this discussion.

    Even if Mohler is as pure as the driven snow when it comes to matters of race, there are plenty of other reasons why he needs to resign immediately if not sooner. His defense of C.J. Mahaney and his mocking of SGM child sex abuse victims at T4G 2016 is one such reason. Mohler’s views on women in general, and his advocacy of complementarianism in particular, is another. And let’s not forget Mohler’s views on Christian singles. Google the question “Is singleness a sin?” for further information on that topic.

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  24. GSD [Getting Stuff Done]: Here’s a photo of the Glass House. People who meet in glass houses shouldn’t join secret societies.

    Oh good grief. That size of a restaurant for a town that does not even have a school past 5th grade? People drive all that way because there are no restaurants in Louisville? Certainly. Of course. I believe that.

    When I was hanging out with some seminary crowd at SBTS years ago we went to Pryor’s for biscuits with honey. Of course, we thought we were going to win the world for Christ. No telling what this bunch hoped to do with the world once they ‘won’ it.

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  25. singleman: I won’t belabor that point further as that’s not the main point of this discussion.

    It might be. Racism is alive and well. But let me add: not all southerners and not all areas of the official south were pro-slavery. My home state of KY was divided in opinion, and where I live now in NC was similarly divided. Many from both the North and from the South were poor conscripts. Lots of tragedy to go around.

    Attitude is a funny thing. Once my son had to go to some formal military shindig, and I had to sew a place on his uniform. I did not notice anything while doing the thread and needle thing. Then he put it on and I literally gasped: it was a Union uniform like right out of the movies. West Point blues I think he said. I was totally taken aback. Then I was surprised and ashamed that I had been surprised because there has never been anything pro slavery in me or my family. So I don’t know, but cultural ideas can be treacherous.

    If that happened to me then I am 100% convinced that some really bad attitudes lie just under the surface for a lot of folks. Mostly it is regional, but for some surely it is racist. I trust the SBC to be non-racist like I believe in Santa Claus.

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  26. Jeffrey Chalmers: most “leaders/presidents/adminstrators” double talk…. that is part of the job description

    Double talk is how they stay in power. Jesus held his integrity and fell out of favor.

    This article concerns women fundraisers and rich donors, but the parallel of overlooking bad behavior to garner donations is apt. Pastors maintain the money flow for their livelihood and the institution. Complementarianism has a money factor of keeping a woman in her place and her guy as boss to assure his tithe for the leadership’s bottom line (budget).

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/political-fundraisers-face-harassment-men-with-money_us_5b1547e5e4b0d5e89e21d03b

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  27. ION: More sport

    TBH, there’s a ton of sport happening the noo and I just don’t feel up to it. I’ll chuck in a very brief summary. England are losing at everything, and Denmark (who play in a very nice shade of red) beat Peru just the noo. Oh, and Roger’s back to being world #1. So, I think it’s safe to assume he and Rafa will be seeded to meet in the Wimbledon final this year. Obviously, the top two seeds are not guaranteed to reach the final; but that could be a fantastic match if it happens.

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  28. “Sixty days before the Silver Bridge collapsed into the Ohio River near Point Pleasant WV in 1967, David Hoy predicted the disaster on a taped program at radio station KDKA in Pittsburgh.”
    So did Mothman.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mothman
    We are now officially in to John Keel/Mothman Prophecies country.

    Funny thing was, I was hoping to swing by both Flatwoods and Point Pleasant on my next trip to the East Coast, for just that reason. Check out the place of the Weirdness – Mothman Museum, the TNT Area…

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  29. okrapod: Of course, we thought we were going to win the world for Christ. No telling what this bunch hoped to do with the world once they ‘won’ it.

    Calvin’s Geneva and/or The Handmaid’s Tale?

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  30. okrapod: Some of Mom’s people retired out in the California desert not far from Palm Springs and Desert Hot Springs. They used to take us to a restaurant which was a former hangout of movie people. The story was that back in the day the public would not tolerate from stars the kind of behavior which we now accept and that area was a focal point for people to have a second home and an alternative life style.

    Palm Springs area still has a reputation as the most Gay-Friendly place in the entire California Low Desert.

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  31. okrapod: We know a formal wear shop in a town about 25-30 miles from Raleigh which has a significant clientele of cross dressers from Raleigh who go out of town to buy ladies clothes for men-for a degree of privacy or so the shop owner told us.
    This stuff goes on. Get out of town for privacy or secrecy.

    Now that’s news to me. Hmmm… 25-30 miles away from Raleigh. I have several guesses…

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  32. okrapod,
    Maybe I’ve read too much Manly Wade Wellman, but…

    Okra, your “daddy” sounds like a character in a contemporary-supernatural genre movie. Into some sort of Weirdness, phobic about Lebanon Junction specifically (Crossroads?), stories of hauntings (including you doing an exorcism), and “literature”. From the way you mentioned “literature”, this doesn’t sound like the usual tabloid paranormal “News of the Weird” stuff, or even the folk magic compilation of The Long Lost Friend. Did you mean something on the order of the Lemegeton, Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses, or any other of what the PA Dutch call “Hex Books”?

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  33. okrapod: GSD [Getting Stuff Done]: Here’s a photo of the Glass House. People who meet in glass houses shouldn’t join secret societies.

    Oh good grief. That size of a restaurant for a town that does not even have a school past 5th grade? People drive all that way because there are no restaurants in Louisville? Certainly. Of course. I believe that.

    According to the excerpt higher in the thread, the Glass House’s business was mostly travellers on the KY Turnpike. Like the “travel plazas” on the PA Turnpike or the clusters of eateries and motels on I-5 offramps in the Central Valley, it wouldn’t have needed a large town to support its volume.

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  34. Muff Potter: Novelist Stephen King dwells at length on door ways to parallel worlds in his Gunslinger book series.

    What Irish folk tradition called “thin places” and contemporary paranormal aficionados call “window areas”.

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  35. “It seems those who became Dodeka members were placed on the fast track for advancement to influential positions within the Southern Baptist denomination.”

    Todd Wilhelm

    “Just like Skull & Bones, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”?

    When they needed a new member, did they do a “tap night” on the doors of their new candidate?
    “DODEKA! ACCEPT OR REJECT?”

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  36. GSD [Getting Stuff Done]: I’m not sure where David Hoy was born, but he lived most of his later life in Paducah, KY. He lived in a seriously creepy big house on Jefferson Street.

    When you read “seriously creepy big house”, did any of you think of the theme music from:
    1) The Addams Family?
    2) The Munsters?
    3) Hitchcock’s Psycho?

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  37. It seems those who became Dodeka members were placed on the fast track for advancement to influential positions within the Southern Baptist denomination.

    They knew the Secret Handshakes and Passwords of the Inner Ring.

      (Quote)  (Reply)

  38. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Whoa there. Nah, I am more thinking perversion maybe Judge Pressler style, including the literature. It was a different family member who saw the literature and they were too shocked? to describe it in detail except for a general statement. And some sort of coming to peace with the dark side which I do not really understand, but somebody perhaps gave permission for that ‘thing’ to live in the house. I heard that idea once from the local Presbyterian preacher in the town where I was in practice, in a routine sermon. Who knew? I don’t think he was phobic about Lebanon Junction, just that he knew something. But then Daddy was a lawyer and he knew stuff which he said he could not talk about, from his job. That is the great mystery to me. The belief in spirits is not uncommon, and that is what grandmother was saying. And I did not do an exorcism-mercy no. I just encountered an evil presence and told it that I now owned the house and that I had authority from Jesus to tell it to leave us alone. The feeling of a presence stopped and did not return. Who knows what that was. Panic maybe? Or real perhaps? I think real, but then people usually do believe their perceptions.

    But this is not some drama, and stuff like this is pretty common I am thinking.

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  39. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Hey HUG,
    Ever heard of The Bell Witch??? (The Haunting)
    I can jump in my car and be at the Bell cave in less than 45 minutes. In the same amount of time, I can be in Kelly, KY, where “aliens attacked” a farm house one night……..
    I have a couple of stories that are very close to home, too. Like, 200 yards from my house, and one of ’em is supposedly kinfolk of mine. The old timers who saw things were very dependable, too. It don’t skeer me none, though. Didn’t skeer Great-aunt Nellie or Eldin Blake, either, and they saw whatever they were.

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  40. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    “We are now officially in to John Keel/Mothman Prophecies country.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    mothman is totally intriguing. the eye-witness accounts were spine-tingling.

    or maybe my love of cryptozoology, UFOs, paranormal, and all mysteries is speaking.

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  41. Headless Unicorn Guy: When you read “seriously creepy big house”, did any of you think of the theme music from:
    1) The Addams Family?
    2) The Munsters?
    3) Hitchcock’s Psycho?

    Actually, the house is a nice bit of architecture on a historic boulevard. Quite pretty, especially in the Spring. I must interpret it as creepy because I connect it with Hoy.

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  42. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    “Ever heard of The Bell Witch??? (The Haunting) I can jump in my car and be at the Bell cave in less than 45 minutes.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    let’s go. can we do the Waffle House coffee on the same trip?

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  43. It seems that the men with their names on buildings possess the same cold, callous virtue that Jesus encountered; the virtue that became a dangerous leaven. Men who’ve had little to no experience with an active and living God and the transforming power of the Spirit find comfort in a two dimensional, black and white, scholarly view of “The Word”. They manifest as the Spiritually deficient antithesis of Gnosticism. We often recount Christian history through the stories of “great” men and women who defied the status quo in the advancement of some righteous cause or correct understanding. We rank their virtue based on their results. We want to view God through their eyes, but we run into difficulty when we see their humanity.

    When I look at the history of people, it seems to me that few embraced the alternative culture within a culture that I see in the Bible. Many have benefited from their counter-cultural movements and the cultural niches they created, but these agents of change often seem to display an aggressiveness to external evil that makes them blind to the condition of their own heart. Maybe some are incapable of seeing their own hypocrisy or there’s no Nathan to speak boldly to them.

    Much like the fathers of the conservative ressurgence, their “counted cost” was mitigated by the vigilance of the security offered by the troops at their disposal. Others, like the YRR crowd, have stealthily created and expanded a space for themselves in Christian culture by mimicking the biological mechanisms of creatures at the bottom of the food chain. They gave become opportunists who have lost the ability to self reflect and must constantly magnify the real and perceived sins of others as an elixir for their own spiritually vacuous condition and existential validation.

    It seems to me that racism, sexism, and other isms are inadequate to describe these folks. It seems to me that most many people who have an ism or other spiritually and socially negative condition inherited that condition directly from personal exposure. These folks seem to have received an aesthetic makeover without a spiritual transformation; creating a tidy appearance that bears little testimony to the second generation of evil Spirits living inside.

    Everyone who desires to follow Jesus has a lifelong struggle with their own humanity, but those who choose to frequently and publicly double down on the sins of others while running from their own public and private struggles are only creating a harsher standard of judgement for themselves. I highly doubt that Mohler and others are racist, or even sexist, in the way that Archie Bunker was both. With no Spirit in their Spirituality, the writings on the scrolls have little power to transcend a mental understanding. Al Mohler and many others seem to be calculating pragmatists.

    If we saw everything as God sees it, I think we would find many of our heroes were much more like Haman than Esther. We would find men and women who’s imperfect hearts perpetuated the evils of their time, but whose hearts were also malleable and humble enough to let their positive virtues speak for themselves while others were being refined. We would see the nameless and faceless who faithfully followed God in spite of carnal cultures in both the world and church. Two dimensional Christianity is carnal and oppressive; gauging success by superficial transformations, while limiting and denying the power of the Spirit to change hearts and minds.

    The Washington Post has this interesting article about the Raleigh White ordeal:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/06/13/an-all-white-church-planned-to-give-its-building-to-a-black-congregation-instead-they-clashed/

    It’s worth a read.

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  44. The overlap with religion and some of this stuff is, well, not exactly evangelical. A man I formerly worked with bought a new house and he had their priest (episcopal) come bless the house. As I understood it the priest went from room to room and did something or other from place to place. Now to me that is weird, and I guess I can talk about my own kind like this.

    And then in the creed we say that god created the seen and the unseen. Whatever that means exactly.

    I am reminded of the fact that when the germ theory was proposed some folks resisted the idea.

    I think there is still a lot we just don’t understand.

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  45. elastigirl:
    Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    “Ever heard of The Bell Witch??? (The Haunting)I can jump in my car and be at the Bell cave in less than 45 minutes.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    let’s go.can we do the Waffle House coffee on the same trip?

    I guess so ……. We could make a little detour through Clarksville. There’s a Waffle House there!

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  46. okrapod:
    Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    Hi were slap skeered to tarnation.

    I was skeerd once when I was 4 or 5 yo …… kickin’, screamin’ skeerd …… My daddy tanned my hide good over it. After that, I decided the haints were easier to deal with than my dad!

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  47. okrapod: No telling what this bunch hoped to do with the world once they ‘won’ it.

    What does any good Crusader or Templar do when the walls are breached and the city won?
    Put the Jews and the Muslims to the sword of course!
    GOD WILLS IT!

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  48. What Happened: These folks seem to have received an aesthetic makeover without a spiritual transformation; creating a tidy appearance that bears little testimony to the second generation of evil Spirits living inside.
    … With no Spirit in their Spirituality…
    Two dimensional Christianity is carnal and oppressive; gauging success by superficial transformations, while limiting and denying the power of the Spirit to change hearts and minds.</blockquot

    Sums it up well. Jesus said "white-washed tombstones" – attractive, dead inside.

    Exhibits A/B: Hybels, aged mega icon and Savage, hipster founder.

    Yet without recent courage from behind-the-scenes, who would have known.

    We're active in a church with a circle of closer friends. Who knows what really goes on? Did anyone else look at the SBC stage and wonder? What actions are behind the words?

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  49. As Chistians we discuss being in a culture war with the secular world, and research agrees:

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sexual-harassment-ousting-bad-men_us_5b23f8c3e4b0f9178a9cd6f5

    A commenter offers a solution:

    Jeffrey M. Vogelgesang, Boston, Massachusetts:

    “One of my favorite stories happened in the early 1980s, before awareness of ‘sexual harassment’:became common.

    “The president and CEO of a small company that was housed in a building and the top floor was the office of the president and his assistants. His office was in the middle of the floor, had glass doors and walls, and curtains that could be drawn shut or open so that people could see or he’d have privacy as he wished.

    “One day, one of his subordinate managers said to a woman he desired in his department, ‘You will have dinner with me tonight’.

    “The woman said, ‘No, I will not; I’m married and will have dinner with my husband.’

    “He said, ‘You will have dinner with me tonight’, and after a couple of iterations of this, warned her that she could kiss her job goodbye if she did not submit to his wishes.

    “The next morning, she marched into the president’s office with a letter of resignation and said, ‘I’m good at what I do, and will not put up with this!’

    “The president tore up the letter, sent her back to her office, and said, ‘I’ll take care of it.’

    “Whereupon, he called in the miscreant manager – opened up all the curtains, and opened up the door, read him the riot act, fired him on the spot in front of all who were on that floor, and shouted at him as he walked out, tail between his legs, that he would never EVER tolerate that conduct in his company!

    “Q: Do you think sexual harassment was subsequently an ongoing problem in that company? A: No – sexual harrassment was subsequently nonexistant in that company from that day forward.”

    And that is why here at TWW and elsewhere, Mohler and Mahaney et al are yet called to task for not addressing child abuse but being complicit as “leaders”, no less. They carry the title, in any case.

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  50. Reference the question does Dodeka still exist, I am of the opinion that there is still an active network among the elite of Southern Seminary, but I doubt they still call it Dodeka. It sounds to me like it was active at least until 1993. Here is a comment I made on my blog, which was based on further research:

    I think Dodeka was always a prestigious, secret organization. I suspect the members knew they could not keep the existence of the group secret so they went to great lengths to cultivate the “it’s only a social dinner club” front.

    Paige Patterson’s knowledge of Dodeka is obviously incomplete. As I documented in the article, Patterson said Herschel Hobbs was not a member, while in fact, he was. Patterson also stated, in the second video above, that Dodeka was started by Duke McCall when he was President of Southern Seminary. Duke McCall was President of Southern Seminary from 1951-1982. Janna has just posted a clipping in a comment from the Courier-Journal dated January 4, 1935. This announcement said John Sampey, president of Southern Seminary, would be speaking at their annual banquet. Sampey was President of Southern Seminary from 1929-1942. So we have evidence that two Presidents were aware of Dodeka, McCall seemingly played an active roll in the organization, while Sampey, at the very least, implicitly endorsed Dodeka by speaking at its annual banquet.

    Further, in the third video above, Albert Mohler stated that Dodeka was formed in the “nineteen-teens.” This would have been when Edgar Mullins was President of Southern Seminary. Mullins served from 1899-1928. I would venture a guess that Mullins was probably instrumental in the formation of Dodeka. Mohler stated the following of Mullins:

    “At age sixteen Mullins entered the first cadet class at the Agricultural and Mechanical College of Texas. In reality, the young school was actually neither agricultural nor mechanical in focus. In general terms is was a liberal arts college with a military cadet corps. As William E. Ellis comments, “A. and M. displayed two dominant characteristics during these early years of existence: a pervading southern ‘Lost Cause’ atmosphere and a lack of clear direction for its chartered purpose, the training of young men in the agricultural and mechanical arts.”(2) As a young cadet, Mullins received lessons in both discipline and leadership, and served as a cadet officer. His military bearing and tall stature became life-long marks of distinction.

    The “A and M” experience was charged with both military discipline and Confederate memory. Jefferson Davis was invited to be the first president of the school and, though Davis declined the offer, the school was a powerful symbol of Southern pride and resistance. Though Mullins would later serve as a world citizen and as a bridge to Baptists in the North, his roots were deeply and decidedly southern.”
    -Albert Mohler, “E. Y. Mullins: The Axioms of Religion” July 16, 2009
    https://albertmohler.com/2009/07/16/e-y-mullins-the-axioms-of-religion/

    Also of note in the second video above, it sounds as if Dodeka was still in operation in 1993. The woman questioning Mohler asked:

    “…if you are intending to continue to allow that secret fraternity on what is supposed to be a Christian campus?”

    Mohler did not directly answer her question, but said Dodeka “has continued at least through the eighties in some form.”

    Mohler’s statement leaves room for Dodeka to have been active right up to 1993, just as the woman stated. I suspect it may likely even be active in some form today.

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  51. What Happened,

    ” I highly doubt that Mohler and others are racist, or even sexist, in the way that Archie Bunker was both. With no Spirit in their Spirituality, the writings on the scrolls have little power to transcend a mental understanding. Al Mohler and many others seem to be calculating pragmatists.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    if racism and sexism are defined by Archie Bunker, then a good many cases of discrimination and the associated pain are automatically dismissed.

    racism and sexism are alive and well in the form of subtle message. to be on the receiving end feels like acid and chewing glass, though. Al Mohler and most of his friends are too savvy to make Archie Bunker blunders, but savvy and subtle can be just as ignorant. it’s just more manicured and unnoticed. but not by those in the lower castes who feel the sting.

    seems to me, such calculating pragmatists would find it easy to sort human lives treated poorly because of their DNA into the collateral damage group. and then continue on with the next action item on their agenda.

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  52. elastigirl: such calculating pragmatists would find it easy to sort human lives treated poorly because of their DNA into the collateral damage group. and then continue on with the next action item on their agenda.

    Yes. However, human lives treated poorly is often just opportunity presented for an opportunist predator standing stealth in the wings. Admin takes their money, yucks it up with them, and hand-waves their predation on innocents in, of all places, the church. Yes, on to the next agenda item… a new building, new music, another satellite plant, family fun fair for nextgen, photo op with local celebs, etc. PR.

    Another example of that culture: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/political-fundraisers-face-harassment-men-with-money_us_5b1547e5e4b0d5e89e21d03b

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  53. Lowlandseer:
    And you are rehashing this article

    http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/06/22/southern-baptists-tear-down-these-buildings/

    Yes, to a degree I guess I am rehashing the article you linked to. It seems to me it needs to be rehashed as Mohler is still, in 2018, displaying an appalling disconnect between his words and actions. It seems to me this has been Mohler’s MO since he has been President of Southern. He is the consummate politician.

    Here is a quote from the article you linked to, and I must say I agree with it:

    “Imagine that. The Southern Baptists calling for the ejection of the Confederate Flag are carrying on the heritage of hate in their own institutions. Mohler, in particular, must realize this as he stewards Boyce College, driving by each day Manly Hall and Broadus Chapel. These aren’t buildings that happen to be named after slave-holding Confederate chaplains, but these are building named after slave-holding Confederate chaplains who founded a denomination asserting the “right” of one man to buy and sell another.

    In the mean time, these modern-day Southern Baptist leaders are calling for the removal of South Carolina’s flag? Here’s a Scripture for you…

    You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. – Jesus, Matthew 7:5

    Now, do I want the SBC to rename or tear down all these buildings? First and foremost, I want the SBC leadership to grasp their own hypocrisy. Then, they should be prompted into giving a defense for the irrational logic that calls for an end to symbols illustrative of hateful heritage and apply it to themselves. When they give that defense (which they may or may not), they’ll probably point out that sin within a certain heritage doesn’t negate what else may lay within that heritage that is worth salvaging – and in doing so, point out their own logical inconsistencies.

    And finally, maybe they’ll figure out that something symbolic of heritage isn’t the problem. The problem is sin. The answer is the Gospel.”

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  54. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Hey HUG,
    Ever heard of The Bell Witch??? (The Haunting)

    I know of it. More a Haunting than a Witch, wasn’t it?

    I can jump in my car and be at the Bell cave in less than 45 minutes. In the same amount of time, I can be in Kelly, KY, where “aliens attacked” a farm house one night…….

    Site of the Silver Goblin Shootout!

    I got introduced to UFOlogy around age 10 by literature from the Adamskyites, i.e. the ORIGINAL Space Brothers/Saucer Cult. (And I have the Aspie trait of taking everything literally…) The Kelly Goblins are a classic, right up there with the Flatwoods Monster:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh_iVtSoRKI

    I have a couple of stories that are very close to home, too. Like, 200 yards from my house, and one of ’em is supposedly kinfolk of mine.

    Like to hear a couple of them. Last time I was on the East Coast, my writing partner showed me the stomping grounds of the “Conewago Phantom”, southern PA’s version of Mothman. A couple years previous, I experienced the nuisance-level poltergeist at his church’s office.

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  55. okrapod: The overlap with religion and some of this stuff is, well, not exactly evangelical. A man I formerly worked with bought a new house and he had their priest (episcopal) come bless the house. As I understood it the priest went from room to room and did something or other from place to place. Now to me that is weird, and I guess I can talk about my own kind like this.

    My church (the one that King Henry split off from to start the Anglicans/Episcopals) also has that ritual. It’s a cleansing of the house from evil influences; some non-Christian fannish friends of mine called it “the church’s version of Setting Wards”.

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  56. okrapod: Whoa there. Nah, I am more thinking perversion maybe Judge Pressler style, including the literature. It was a different family member who saw the literature and they were too shocked? to describe it in detail except for a general statement.

    More like Deep Dark Secret than anything else?

    And some sort of coming to peace with the dark side which I do not really understand, but somebody perhaps gave permission for that ‘thing’ to live in the house. I heard that idea once from the local Presbyterian preacher in the town where I was in practice, in a routine sermon.

    I’ve heard similar from both Catholic and Evangelical sources. An old tradition in both church and folk beliefs, but exaggerated to absurdity by Spiritual Warfare fanboys and their “claiming back territories” and “perimeter walking”.

    I don’t think he was phobic about Lebanon Junction, just that he knew something. But then Daddy was a lawyer and he knew stuff which he said he could not talk about, from his job.

    More Deep Dark Secrets, filtered through attorney/client privilege?
    Given what’s been said about Lebanon Junction’s size and location, I can easily believe a sex cult (or at least a sex nest) for the Respectable Pillars of the Community setting up there. “What happens in Lebanon Junction stays in Lebanon Junction.”

    And I did not do an exorcism-mercy no. I just encountered an evil presence and told it that I now owned the house and that I had authority from Jesus to tell it to leave us alone. The feeling of a presence stopped and did not return. Who knows what that was.

    Technically, what you did was a simple exorcism. And the origin of the “blessing of the house” mentioned above.

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  57. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I can jump in my car and be at the Bell cave in less than 45 minutes. In the same amount of time, I can be in Kelly, KY, where “aliens attacked” a farm house one night……..

    Remember all the craziness about that big solar eclipse last year?

    Everyone — NASA, media, Celebrities — converging on Hopkinsville, KY, during Little Green Men Days? Covering an eclipse happening on the 62nd anniversary of “UFO Goblins vs Shotguns” in Edgar Cayce’s home town?

    All that was missing was a special guest appearance by Mothman or a tall skinny “Jersey Devil” made of mismatched animal parts with a voice like John DeLancie.

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  58. Headless Unicorn Guy: Remember all the craziness about that big solar eclipse last year?

    Everyone — NASA, media, Celebrities — converging on Hopkinsville, KY, during Little Green Men Days? Covering an eclipse happening on the 62nd anniversary of “UFO Goblins vs Shotguns” in Edgar Cayce’s home town?

    Yep. My daughter lives in Hopkinsville. Her husband works for the city. Daughter and I usually go to the Little Green Men Days Festival, but not last year! Traffic in the area was horrible; campgrounds were so packed that farmers were allowing people to camp in fallow fields; it was insane!
    And, I forgot to mention Edgar Cayce! He’s also buried in Hopkinsville.

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  59. Headless Unicorn Guy: Funny thing was, I was hoping to swing by both Flatwoods and Point Pleasant on my next trip to the East Coast, for just that reason. Check out the place of the Weirdness – Mothman Museum, the TNT Area…

    Real or not, sometimes it’s cool to see these places. We drove the Extraterrestrial Highway through Rachel, Nevada. Wanted to get closer to Area 51 but MG, my wife, didn’t want to go down any side roads. Got buzzed very closely by a F16.

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  60. “The disaffected young aren’t likely to expose their children to preachers who tell them that women count for less than men… the pattern of a declining attachment to religion in the young is unprecedented in American history. Until the last decades of the 20th century, they fell in line with the denominational attachments of their parents.”

    From an article about the increase of the Nones and Dones. Not agreeing with everything in the article, nevertheless, the numbers are revealing. Exodus.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/blame-evangelicals-for-the-decline-in-christian-faith?ref=home

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  61. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    Hi Nancy. The thought of Al Mohler in a secret society was just too much to pass up – I had to chime in. Of course, there are a lot of Southern Baptist men, just not the elite ones, who are involved in another secret society. You probably know what I’m talking about.

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  62. Max,

    I think I know. It has been discussed here. If you mean the Masons, then I have to add that Daddy was a Mason for many years and many degrees of Masonry. That would be the dad that I have been talking about. And the Masons that were popular with preachers in the civil war era. Dee has been a defender of the Masons as being a harmless social society. Perhaps, perhaps not.

    In my humble (?) opinion sometimes people can skate too close to the brink and that can result in the more vulnerable among them falling over the brink. Daddy came home one day and declared that he was never going back but never told us why. Mom thought it was because of the expense. I am thinking in retrospect that it was possibly a lot more than that.

    If that is not what you are talking about then I apologize. To both you and Dee.

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  63. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): PS – you know that one of the most Godly men you know (your wife) would be very welcome here, too!

    I often introduce her that way when we meet religious folks who I suspect have female subordination in mind. The complementarian guys just don’t know what to do with that … especially when they find out she knows her Bible better than them! She is sort of a blog participant – I steal all my good stuff from her!

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  64. Jerome: It was odd, seeing Mohler’s school promoting Masonic-funded education. It makes more sense now:
    http://www.sbts.edu/admissions/financial-aid/state-scholarships
    “Grand Lodge of Missouri Scholarships
    Grand Lodge Office, 6033 Masonic Drive Suite B, Columbia, Mo…Description: For students graduating from high school in Missouri and attending Boyce College.”

    It is interesting allowing scholarships from the Masons given this quote from Mohler. Mohler’s response also considers all secret societies.

    https://albertmohler.com/2009/10/07/ask-anything-wednesday-241/

    A Pastor asked Mohler specifically about Masons being deacons. (starting about the 15 minute mark)

    “I don’t believe a Christian should ever be a part of a secret organization, much less a mystical organization, much less an organization that really is deeply, very deeply, steeped in paganism such as the Masonic Orders.”

    Mohler then spends at least 5 minutes backing away from his statement citing “relationships”.

    Seems to me Mohler believes in pragmatism rather than principles, but we already know that.

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  65. did you know that that “other secret society” stalks people? I “know” that as well. They have a great ruination plan for people not “worthy.” did you ever watch the ceremony with the one eye on youtube? I asked my church did they have a statement on that other secret society and they said they have “no official position”. FBC JAX that is. they take positions on everything else, though…

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  66. Ct:
    did you know that that “other secret society” stalks people?I “know” that as well.They have a great ruination plan for people not “worthy.”did you ever watch the ceremony with the one eye on youtube?I asked my church did they have a statement on that other secret society and they said they have “no official position”.FBC JAX that is. they take positions on everything else, though…

    If you’re talking Freemasons, I need to remind everybody that the Freemasons have been the butt of Grand Unified Conspiracy Theories for the past two centuries. Including several Satanic Panics in the 19th. During the first half of the 19th, there were even “Anti-Masonic” one-issue third parties based around Masonic Conspiracy Theory.

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  67. jyjames:
    “The disaffected young aren’t likely to expose their children to preachers who tell them that women count for less than men… the pattern of a declining attachment to religion in the young is unprecedented in American history. Until the last decades of the 20th century, they fell in line with the denominational attachments of their parents.”

    From an article about the increase of the Nones and Dones. Not agreeing with everything in the article, nevertheless, the numbers are revealing. Exodus.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/blame-evangelicals-for-the-decline-in-christian-faith?ref=home

    The article makes some salient points.
    But like you, I don’t agree with everything it says.
    Catholic, Lutheran, and other main-line youth groups are thriving and won’t go away anytime soon.

    The fundagelicalism that helped give us Il Duce?
    And it’s slavish devotion to conservative politics?
    Yeah, the article’s right on the money with that one, it’s on its death bed.

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  68. ION: Sport

    Mexico have just won a famous victory over world champions Germany.

    Roger won his 98th tour title with victory over Canada’s big-serving Milos Raonic. Looking OK for a Roger/Rafa final at Wimbledon.

    Brazil play Switzerland in a couple of hours’ time.

    There’s other stuff going on.

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  69. Muff Potter: main-line

    IMHO, notable about the mainlines is that there is general agreement about the basics with God and Spirituality that everyone agrees with and gets along. Then instead of factioning, dividing, elevating, causing a stir of “we know better”, within the mainlines, people have their natural inclinations of smaller (unorganized/NOT top-down) social groups of being at similar stages in their journey. (For example, my Catholic friends who practice birth control and those who don’t. They do as their conscience guides them but don’t stick it in the face of those who do otherwise. It’s quiet.)

    The complementarians could do their thing in their own marriages, no one the wiser. However, to put this on society a la Piper as a whole, like women shouldn’t be police officers or supervisors, is … just wrong.

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  70. Muff Potter: The fundagelicalism that helped give us Il Duce?
    And it’s slavish devotion to conservative politics?
    Yeah, the article’s right on the money with that one, it’s on its death bed.

    Or, like Bill Maher said (BTW, not a fan), at least we now know the core of what some church brands are about as they show their colors. Hybels and Savage (or Ravi) as predators, Mahaney and Mohler as enablers, Patterson and Pressler as the iconic enabler/predator couple.

    (During the PTL Jim & Tammy Faye debacle, our pastor opened Sunday with, “Thank God I’m not in the AOG.” After Jimmy Swaggart, our other pastor said his television work completely dried up, never to return. Interesting, however, the mainline Catholic Church has far more influence doing good – homeless shelters, you name it – so the priest situation is more like cleaning house and putting safeguards in place rather than sink or swim. Unlike the SBC gutting missions, Catholic Relief and ministry is strong.)

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  71. Muff Potter: Catholic, Lutheran, and other main-line youth groups are thriving and won’t go away anytime soon.

    I don’t see what you state here in Spartanburg County, SC.

    Spartanburg County population: 307,000
    Number of Catholic Churches: 3
    Number of Lutheran Churches: 4

    Lots and lots of growing Baptist churches, despite all the SBC mess.

    I guess we live on different planets.

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  72. jyjames: nevertheless, the numbers are revealing

    I wonder whether the numbers are meaningful. Since correlation is not the same as causation, I question whether the numbers tell the real story. I persoannaly was not fond of either candidate (to put it mildly), so I don’t know that the way I voted should be counted as support. A lot of it depends on how the questions are asked.

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  73. One final sporting update for tonight (it being night-time in Blighty, though not dark as it’s the Scottish mid-summer).

    Brazil and Switzerland drew 1-1, meaning that naebdy scored more than 1 goal today at the world cup.

    And a belated update from our visit to the climbing wall yesterday:
     I finally sent the balancey and technical orange 6c over the bulge;
     Lesley followed up her success on the pink brains last week with solid grade-pushing work on the rocky reds on the slabs

    IHTIH.

    See you all next week.

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  74. Ken P.: I guess we live on different planets.

    Not at all Ken. Just different parts of our great Nation. She never ceased being great by the way, despite the claim made by some that she needs to be made great again.

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  75. I believe that it is not sinful to honor the great contributions of people in the past, even though we do not honor views they may have held.

    It’s very unhealthy to try and ignore or rewrite the past. People who don’t know and understand their past are not only ignorant, they are impoverished. And in their zeal to erase the past, people can set themselves up for worse practices and a dark future.

    Our country was founded by people who did not think that Africans had the same rights as Europeans who were settling this nation.

    And yet, it was Jefferson who wrote that all men are created equal by God.

    That was truly revolutionary at the time. It was an extension of the Protestant Reformation to government. The Priesthood of the Believer is essentially the right of political self determination, though the later is in the political realm.

    In the case of Southern Seminary, James P. Boyce gave his family’s railroad fortune to establish and sustain the seminary.

    And former governor Joseph Brown, saved the seminary during the depression of the 1870s with a gift of $200,000 in minted gold. The present value of that is significant.

    John Broadus, you will recall, was offered the office of the Presidency of the University of Chicago by John D. Rockefeller, but turned it down to stay at Southern.

    We can go through the ranks of both secular and sacred history and find numerous examples.

    We all are grateful that the franchise was expanded to African Americans and in lesser, but still significant way, to women.

    The scripture says that we eat the fruit of trees we did not plant, and we drink from cisterns we did not dig.

    So it is with our nation, and so it is with Southern Baptist institutions.

    We certainly have the mental acuity and moral compass to honor the contributions of our forbearers, but at the same time identify where they failed.

    I am all for making “new history.” Let’s continue to grow as a people and honor new people who make great contributions. These heroes will not have the same sins of the past, but be assured, they also will have sins, as later generations will discover.

    But in celebrating new heroes, let’s not give to the temptation to try and erase the past. That, in my opinion, is an ignorant and prideful way to proceed.

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  76. Anonymous Oracle at Delphi,

    Well said.

    I am chagrined by current and widespread exhibitions of virtue signaling. I hope the continuing removal of names and references to past individuals because they do not match up with current zeitgeist will come to an end. I also hope that I can oppose such efforts without being labeled a closet supporter of past malpractice.

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  77. Anonymous Oracle at Delphi:
    I believe that it is not sinful to honor the great contributions of people in the past, even though we do not honor views they may have held.

    It’s very unhealthy to try and ignore or rewrite the past.People who don’t know and understand their past are not only ignorant, they are impoverished.And in their zeal to erase the past, people can set themselves up for worse practices and a dark future.

    Our country was founded by people who did not think that Africans had the same rights as Europeans who were settling this nation.

    And yet, it was Jefferson who wrote that all men are created equal by God.

    That was truly revolutionary at the time.It was an extension of the Protestant Reformation to government.The Priesthood of the Believer is essentially the right of political self determination, though the later is in the political realm.

    In the case of Southern Seminary, James P. Boyce gave his family’s railroad fortune to establish and sustain the seminary.

    And former governor Joseph Brown, saved the seminary during the depression of the 1870s with a gift of $200,000 in minted gold.The present value of that is significant.

    John Broadus, you will recall, was offered the office of the Presidency of the University of Chicago by John D. Rockefeller, but turned it down to stay at Southern.

    We can go through the ranks of both secular and sacred history and find numerous examples.

    We all are grateful that the franchise was expanded to African Americans and in lesser, but still significant way, to women.

    The scripture says that we eat the fruit of trees we did not plant, and we drink from cisterns we did not dig.

    So it is with our nation, and so it is with Southern Baptist institutions.

    We certainly have the mental acuity and moral compass to honor the contributions of our forbearers, but at the same time identify where they failed.

    I am all for making “new history.”Let’s continue to grow as a people and honor new people who make great contributions.These heroes will not have the same sins of the past, but be assured, they also will have sins, as later generations will discover.

    But in celebrating new heroes, let’s not give to the temptation to try and erase the past.That, in my opinion, is an ignorant and prideful way to proceed.

    You have a fascinating name.

    It is right to say we are the product of both our times, and those who went before. But to honour, that depends if honour is due.

    I think of Gideon who was commanded to teardown his father’s alter and burn his bullock with wood of the sacred grove.

    Likewise, we will know a prophet by their fruit. Is not this fruit to be understood to mean their prodigy? Their children of their teachings?

    Was their fruit evil or good?

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  78. Nathan Priddis,

    Gideon tore down his father’s altar, but not the memory of his father.

    Plus, we may assume that Gideon’s father, had some memory of the Law. Thus, he and his generation had digressed.

    Jefferson and his generation and Boyce and his generation were growing. They were moving forward. They were not where we are today. But before them, there was no teaching on self determination, thus many Christians believed in the divine right of kings, and many Christians believed in slavery.

    Keep in mind that Jesus did not condemn the practice of slavery, and neither did any of the NT writers. Paul even instructed a runaway slave to return to his master.

    Slavery was an age old institution that took the Western world thousands of years to shed.

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  79. Secret chosen-ness we have always with us. I can hardly watch it, because in several crucial situations in my own life I was un-chosed. When I was a senior in high school one of the front-office secretaries came to me and said ‘they aren’t going to tell you this, but I think they are doing wrong’ and tipped me off as to one competitive way to get a scholarship to the local university. I took the exam and won the scholarship. Unchosen. A similar incident happened at the end of nursing school, which I was only tipped off about by my fellow classmates at our 50th and last reunion. Unchosen. Again, I had been the one to win the spot in spite of unchosen-ness and in spite of ignorance as to the ‘secrets’ behind my back.

    So what bothers me most about Mohler and his secret society is the question of who is he to establish chosen-ness and unchosen-ness among people headed for ministry. Oh, how silly of me, I must still be thinking that God is supposed to be in that business, not Mohler. There is nothing wrong with mentoring where indicated, but a ‘secret society’ is not mentoring-it is setting up those who in the future will feel indebted and will then play along with the money and power intentions of those who chose them and pay back what they ‘owe’. And, it is establishing what the unwritten rules are which determine ‘us’ vs ‘them’ which of course do include race and gender and family background/contacts – the usual stuff.

    And all this as alleged followers of some guy born in a stable and who hung out with fishermen and some tax collector and who chose of all people some fanatic Pharisee for an emissary. What a disconnect.

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  80. truthseeker00,

    Not to make light of anything intentionally, but when I hear the phrase “supper club”, I immediately think of a restaurant, 1950’s decor, deer head on the wall, and a waitress named Diane serving old fashions. (As our tourism board commercials remind us…) Around here a supper club is a good place to get a steak or a fish fry on Friday night. Who knew?

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  81. Noevangelical,

    A supper club selectively chosen and personally headed by a powerful person for some of the personally chosen elite among the up and coming and which is admittedly kept secret is more than just a supper club. Check under the plates and see what is written on the little cards.

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  82. Noevangelical:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supper_clubMust be a regional thing…

    Yes, the wiki article says that. But I was using the term to mean an established group of people who go out dining together-a social circle. I was using the word club as one might say a ‘bridge club’ of friends who get together and play bridge. I am not used to the word ‘club’ for a restaurant, but now that you mention it I have heard that, but mostly as in ‘country club’ or so if meaning a location. The wiki article uses the term to mean the restaurant where they go. We are talking about two different things.

    At our church they gave the opportunity for forming such dining groups, called ‘sinners dinners’ which as far as I know were harmless, but which were not by invitation of any ‘leadership’ person, just get up a bunch if you want to. Once the bunches were formed, however, they remained the same bunch for a year. There is also an identifiable segment of the congregation which is identifiable, but if there is secrecy involved it does not hide very well.

    So, yes, I was not talking about what you are talking about.

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  83. Muff Potter,

    Catholic, Lutheran, and other main-line youth groups are thriving and won’t go away anytime soon.

    All faith groups are having increasing difficulty retaining younger people, but this is funny. You realize that mainline denominations are cratering. Evangelicals are holding their own as a percentage of the population.

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  84. Robert,

    I have a feeling that the term ‘mainline denomination’ is being used differently by different people. What is your definition of ‘mainline denomination’? Can you give us a list? And yes I am aware of the original use of the term, but that seems to be long gone in the way the term is now used. At the same time please say into what categories you put pentecostal denominations, predominately black denoms, catholic and orthodox churches, and such groups as LDS and Jehovah’s Witness and Universalists and such.

    And who is it that you are calling evangelical? I think this matters because the use of the term ‘evangelical’ has changed and spread during my life time. I grew us baptist before the baptists were calling themselves evangelical, for example, and some baptists still do not use the term in everyday conversation that we can tell. So it gets confusing.

    One more specific. Evangelicals have made it a point that they are not using the word fundamentalist. In the baptist denoms where I live there are several large IFB churches replete with schools including one college, and there is one large SBC mega with a few campuses, and there are several moderately large CBF (moderate) affiliated formerly SBC baptist churches. How do you categorize these?

    Personally I see three different categories including fundamentalist, evangelical and moderate all calling themselves ‘baptist’.

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  85. ION: FItba’

    So, 24 of the 32 teams have now played their opening matches. Overall, it’s been a low-scoring affair; Russia and Croatia are the only teams with a goal difference of better than +1. Although, to be fair, Spain and Portugal shared 6 goals in the match of the tournament so far; and moreover, a low-scoring game can still be a good one to watch. I’ve not actually watched any of the games so far, though, so I can’t comment personally, but by all accounts there have been some good games.

    Belgium have just kicked off against Panama; Belgium would be expected to win that one. In the same group, England play Tunisia tonight. On paper, England should win that one; but fitba’s not played on paper, especially where England world cup campaigns are concerned. We can lose to anybody on our day.

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  86. elastigirl: racism and sexism are alive and well in the form of subtle message. to be on the receiving end feels like acid and chewing glass, though. Al Mohler and most of his friends are too savvy to make Archie Bunker blunders, but savvy and subtle can be just as ignorant

    My knowledge of archie bunker is perhaps incomplete but it seems like his version may have been less destructive than the ‘christian’ version. Did he blame his wife when she was either raped or almost raped? Did he ultimately control his daughter, choose her suitors, etc? He may have said things out loud, but how did he treat his family?

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  87. Lea: (supper is definitely a regional word, though)

    I have a friend who refuses to call the evening meal ‘dinner’. He is quick to point out that Jesus had “The Last Supper’, not ‘The Last Dinner’. All in fun, of course. 😉

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  88. Todd Wilhelm: Now, do I want the SBC to rename or tear down all these buildings? First and foremost, I want the SBC leadership to grasp their own hypocrisy. Then, they should be prompted into giving a defense for the irrational logic that calls for an end to symbols illustrative of hateful heritage and apply it to themselves.

    I was aware somewhat of SB’s history of racism, however I did not fully realize how prevalent the modern impression of SBC as racists is until recently. I tend to think of it as an old thing, but as some of it comes from colleges like Bob Jones (who may be IFB) only dropping interracial dating bans in what 2000 that may not be accurate.

    But I never realized how many confederate general links there were to seminaries.

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  89. Nick Bulbeck: ION: Sport
    Mexico have just won a famous victory over world champions Germany.

    I can actually chime in on this one!

    Mexico is a very good team and should not be treated as some upstart team or a *shocking* victory. So says offended BF.

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  90. Lea: I was aware somewhat of SB’s history of racism, however I did not fully realize how prevalent the modern impression of SBC as racists is until recently.

    That’s one reason many young SBC pastors don’t like to refer to their churches as “Southern” Baptist. They prefer cool church names to attract members and hide SBC affiliation in a remote corner of their website. Members of The Summit Church were surprised to learn that they were “Southern” Baptists when their pastor J.D. Greear ran for SBC President!

    I suppose there is still a remnant of racism in some SBC churches – old sins die hard – but in my 60+ years of SBC life, I never witnessed racist behavior. In fact, there are about 4,000 SBC African-American church congregations, as well as thousands more where African-Americans worship alongside white members.

    However, it did take the SBC 150 years to formerly repent as a denomination regarding its racist beginnings in a 1995 resolution:

    “Resolution On Racial Reconciliation On The 150th Anniversary Of The Southern Baptist Convention”, SBC-Atlanta, 1995, http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/899/resolution-on-racial-reconciliation-on-the-150th-anniversary-of-the-southern-baptist-convention

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  91. Deb: I have a friend who refuses to call the evening meal ‘dinner’. He is quick to point out that Jesus had “The Last Supper’, not ‘The Last Dinner’. All in fun, of course.

    These old song lyrics can provide some clarity:

    It was the third of June, another sleepy, dusty Delta day
    I was out choppin’ cotton, and my brother was balin’ hay
    And at dinner time we stopped and walked back to the house to eat
    And mama hollered out the back door, y’all, remember to wipe your feet
    And then she said, I got some news this mornin’ from Choctaw Ridge
    Today, Billy Joe MacAllister jumped off the Tallahatchie Bridge

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  92. Max: That’s one reason many young SBC pastors don’t like to refer to their churches as “Southern” Baptist. They prefer cool church names to attract members and hide SBC affiliation in a remote corner of their website.

    If there were more men like you Max, in the SBC, men who stand on principle, they wouldn’t have to conceal their roots.

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  93. jyjames: Todd Wilhelm: displaying an appalling disconnect between his words and actions

    Key.

    . . . and rampant in the Institutional Church since it was originated. Constantine, Augustine, Calvin . . . the number is great of men who can speak impressive sounding pious words, while living lives that do not uphold such language. It certainly did not originate with Patterson and Mohler.

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  94. Lea: I was aware somewhat of SB’s history of racism, however I did not fully realize how prevalent the modern impression of SBC as racists is until recently.

    The perception of the SBC as being aligned with right wing politics certainly doesn’t help when it comes to racial relations.

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  95. Lea: My knowledge of archie bunker is perhaps incomplete but it seems like his version may have been less destructive than the ‘christian’ version.

    Important thing about Archie Bunker, from the guy who created and the actor who portrayed the character:

    Archie is not motivated by hatred, but FEAR. The world has changed since his attitudes were formed in the Forties, in a confusing and frightening way. The safe certainties he grew up with in Thirties/Forties Queens are no more, and he is reacting to the resulting chaos.

    Remember the opening theme to the show “Those Were the Days”? The lyrics speak nostalgia for a “normal” past. And that “normal” is no more. Instead, there is a new and frightening “normal”.

    Archie Bunker is not an evil man, just flawed and imperfect, very set in his ways and scared of this new normal. And he pushes back against Future Shock.

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  96. Lea: Mexico is a very good team and should not be treated as some upstart team or a *shocking* victory. So says offended BF.

    In my defence, I called it famous rather than shocking…! in context, Germany are the defending champions and won all 10 of their qualifying games.

    It is quite true, though, that there aren’t many teams who would sigh with relief at being drawn in a group with Mexico. Same goes for Sweden, come to that, who are also in the group – in fact it has something of the “Group of Death” about it.

    Anyway, England and Tunisia are on court as I type.

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  97. Nick Bulbeck: In my defence, I called it famous rather than shocking

    No need to defend! Comment was directed at the general announcers rather than yourself 😉

    But I so rarely know anything of the sports you are discussing…And I actually caught the end of the Germany/Mexico game!

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  98. Headless Unicorn Guy: Archie Bunker is not an evil man, just flawed and imperfect, very set in his ways and scared of this new normal.

    Good point. I may add that the “new normal” has not turned out to be a complete win either. If given the choice between Archie Bunker and Meathead, I go with a negotiation between the two.

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  99. Deb: I have a friend who refuses to call the evening meal ‘dinner’. He is quick to point out that Jesus had “The Last Supper’, not ‘The Last Dinner’. All in fun, of course.

    In my neck of the woods, all of us call the noon meal “dinner” and the nightly meal “supper” ……… ‘cept at school and work, can be confusing to some of the younger ones. I didn’t know what “lunch” was until I started school.

    (For those who work 2nd and 3rd shifts, breakfast even gets confusing!)

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  100. PS: I just realized that I stink. I really stink!!! 2 of our dogs found a skunk and got sprayed, and how! We just finished bathing the dogs, (as soon as I got the pie I was working on in the oven) and they didn’t want to be bathed …….. So I really do stink. I can’t smell the pie; I just smell skunk.
    Gonna go take a shower as soon as the hickory nut pie comes out of the oven.

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  101. FW Rez,

    In my experience, left wing politics is home to just as many racists as right wing politics. I think it is unfair to make it sound as if the right wing has a lock on bigotry.

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  102. FW Rez,

    You do know the history of the democratic party as the party of pro slavery, school segregation,and the Jim Crow laws, the KKK etc? I happen to be a conservative who was once a socialist. I find it strange that history is so easily forgotten. As an egalitarian, anti- abortion, anti-slavery, pro freedom person with liberal views which are rooted in Burkian ideas, I don’t like to see pejorative comments on Christians who hold to conservative politics, nor on those who disagree. I thought we were not meant to make political comments here such as referring to ‘someone’ as Il Duque for example.

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  103. Nancy2(aka Kevlar):
    PS:I just realized that I stink.I really stink!!!2 of our dogs found a skunk and got sprayed, and how!We just finished bathing the dogs, (as soon as I got the pie I was working on in the oven) and they didn’t want to be bathed …….. So I really do stink. I can’t smell the pie; I just smell skunk.
    Gonna go take a shower as soon as the hickory nut pie comes out of the oven.

    Nancy, have you tried tomato juice? Our dogs get sprayed at least once a month by our neighborhood skunk – who’s cute as can be, and we call him Pepe – no matter how hard we try to avoid him. Tomato juice works wonders on skunk-stinky dogs and humans. We keep gallons of it in the pantry!

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  104. Bill,

    I’m not intending to call anyone racist (not in the present or in the past). I think that the SBC would do well, as a convention and as individual churches, to distance itself from partisan politics. The fact is that blacks voted overwhelmingly one way in the last election and I would infer from that that they would not be as comfortable in a convention where opposing political views are prevalent. Example: I thought it was very inappropriate (and a bit gauche) when I say someone proudly wearing his large red, white, and blue elephant pin on his lapel at church yesterday. A donkey would have been equally inappropriate.

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  105. Jenny,

    I know about tomato juice, but ……….. aw, Jenny. It just hurts my soul to use good tomato juice any such way. We grow a garden, and I freeze, can, pickle, jell, jam …….. There’s a lot of work to making tomato juice!

    We mix baking soda and peroxide – I think it’s a quart of peroxide mixed with 1/2 cup of soda…….. Wash the dog with that; wait a few minutes; then rinse and shampoo with your usual doggie soap. I just use baby shampoo around their eyes.

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  106. FW Rez,

    Fair enough – perhaps a better choice of words would have been in order. In any event, if we are going to eliminate politics from churchianity, then I would think traditional black churches should also be expected to decline to have Democrat candidates speak at their worship services – the same for the SBC to not have Republicans speak. It works both ways. I’m actually pretty uncomfortable mixing ANY political persuasion with the Christian faith – politics is a mess and in any event we are to look to the Lord and not to man. We are not of this world, we are only passing through.

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  107. Deb: Great question! Hoping someone will chime in and give us a status report.

    It ran until the 1990s along with the Browning Club. (Gregory Wills, History of Southern Baptist Seminary 1859-2009, page 172). And it can hardly be classed as a secret society when it regularly advertised its meetings and guest speakers and is mentioned in various archives and biographical memoirs.

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  108. Lowlandseer,

    That is interesting. Comparing this information with the a couple of known secret societies, was the membership of the SBTS group secret or public? I am trying to determine what exactly can be public and what exactly is secret to qualify as a secret society. The skull and bones society for example is kind of secret and kind of not.

    Actually I never thought about it all that much as to what makes something secret. I have been thinking along the lines of a rather larger group for comparison.

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  109. okrapod: Actually I never thought about it all that much as to what makes something secret.

    It’s what goes on behind closed doors that’s “secret.” I suspect there has been a lot of that over the years by SBC elite plotting the destiny of the denomination … without asking millions of members which way they want to go. The secret part is when they move chess players around covertly to checkmate the masses.

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  110. Max: they move chess players around covertly to checkmate the masses

    Jesus, in contrast:
    – eventually had the masses walking away.
    – was/is the Great Reveal of God and paid the price.
    – had explicit followers who also paid a price, their lives.

    “Do not do as they [religious leaders] do, for they do not practice what they preach,” – JC, Matt. 23.3.

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  111. Lowlandseer: It ran until the 1990s along with the Browning Club. (Gregory Wills, History of Southern Baptist Seminary 1859-2009, page 172). And it can hardly be classed as a secret society when it regularly advertised its meetings and guest speakers and is mentioned in various archives and biographical memoirs.

    It’s identified as such in the very book you’re citing:

    “Dodeka, secret society” (index)

    Wills also mentions that students in 1923 petitioned the faculty to disband “secret student clubs” that were operating at the seminary.

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  112. Jerome: “Defining the Term ‘Secret Society’….Daraul also states ‘Not all secret societies are entirely secret’ (1961, p. 9). Often specific members or the mission of the group may be public knowledge, either intentionally or accidentally (Daraul, 1961).”

    It has always been the case that secret societies are contained within organizations that have a ‘non-secret’ face, with not only benign but benevolent goals.

    Obviously, men cannot long hide the fact of meetings with groups of other men. Thus, such meetings must be masked with other publicly stated goals that will not only go unquestioned, but usually be warmly welcomed. Thus, the Institutional Church would be a perfect fit under which a secret society could function undetected.

    The other well-known feature of secret societies is that not all of the members of the benevolent organization are aware of its existence. In other words, all the members of the secret society will be, say, Freemasons, but not all Freemasons will be members of the secret society. Thus, those who assert that Freemasons are simply a benevolent, fraternal organization – which most members operate as are in large part correct. However, secret societies, with unpublished goals and activities – which only a select few of the members are a part of, have also been well-documented for centuries, world-wide.

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  113. truthseeker00,

    Yes. And it is not unreasonable to think that this may contribute to somebody just suddenly dropping membership in some organization once they realize, or perhaps can no longer refuse to see, ‘the rest of the story’ so to speak. Not that I would know of anybody doing that, no sirreeee bobtail. But when life forces one to wander in ConjectureLand it is a breath of fresh air to come across a viable conjecture.

    Thanks.

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  114. truthseeker00: Thus, those who assert that Freemasons are simply a benevolent, fraternal organization – which most members operate as are in large part correct. However, secret societies, with unpublished goals and activities – which only a select few of the members are a part of, have also been well-documented for centuries, world-wide.

    Go ahead and say it: ILLUMINATI.
    Weisenhaupt’s original Bavarian Illuminati used Masonic lodges for cover; so did the Sons of Liberty/Founding Fathers.

    A great read on the subject is Conspiracy Theories and Secret Societies for Dummies, one of the “For Dummies” series. With a warning (and some examples) that Conspiracy Theory can really detach you from reality.

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  115. Bill:
    FW Rez,

    In my experience, left wing politics is home to just as many racists as right wing politics.I think it is unfair to make it sound as if the right wing has a lock on bigotry.

    Bill, it’s ALWAYS The Other Guy who “has a lock on bigotry”.

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  116. Deb: A bit of info on The Glass House restaurant. Interesting name. I wonder what year it closed…

    From checking on the history of I-65, I would say the late 1970s.
    I-65 replaced the Kentucky Turnpike in 1975 and the turnpike travel plazas were removed around that time.

    Speaking of Turnpikes, I’ve driven the PA Turnpike on my trips to the East Coast. I DO like their on-pike travel plazas, though expansions about 10 years ago have changed their “feel”.

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  117. I have discovered that if one doesn’t learn from Christian history, one is doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past. When one examines Southern Baptist history, one will discover that it is predicated on lack of racial conscientiousness. The first convention was during when slavery was legal in 1845. That very first SBC declared nothing against this evil of “menstealing” from the shores of Africa. Apparently, the SBC primarily so focused on evangelizing other nations that it felt that any thing of local political nature should be ignored and would be fruitless. The SBC broke off from Northern Baptist who were constantly warring political battles against the south on the issue of slavery because it was “too pollical.” I know that the SBC leaders have apologized for this in 1995(see link below) but the leaders aren’t simply digging deep enough into a foundations to where even the creation of the SBC fed into a civil war. It was built on a neo-evangelical methodology that didn’t understand how the Bible was to be properly applied into an assembly, community, state,and humanitarian laws. By its nature, its easy to saw how sacerdotalism crept in. Personally, I don’t see how the “trail of blood” fits the SBC with its history. Its time for the leaders in the SBC to get academically honest and STATE ALL its error in its history and unhealthy alliances, and start lining up with the faith in Christian history that the early church held to and recognize the Body of Christ does exist beyond its race and culture.

    http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/899

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  118. Headless Unicorn Guy: A great read on the subject is Conspiracy Theories and Secret Societies for Dummies, one of the “For Dummies” series. With a warning (and some examples) that Conspiracy Theory can really detach you from reality.

    In a way, Conspiracy Theory is distilled Essence of Gnosticism — a Secret Knowledge (Occult Gnosis) known only to a Special Superior Few.

    The word “Gnostic” itself means “He Who KNOWS Things”.

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  119. Headless Unicorn Guy: From checking on the history of I-65, I would say the late 1970s.
    I-65 replaced the Kentucky Turnpike in 1975 and the turnpike travel plazas were removed around that time.

    Speaking of Turnpikes, I’ve driven the PA Turnpike on my trips to the East Coast. I DO like their on-pike travel plazas, though expansions about 10 years ago have changed their “feel”.

    We still tell horror stories about the N.Y. turnpike travel plaza we stopped at once…

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