Who’s In and Who’s Out at T4G 2020 and What Does It Mean?


A picture of Hurricane Dorian from the ISS.

“I always had a mentality we would forever be friends but to my shock forever got very shorter than I ever expected.” link


Surprisingly, my area of North Carolina may get more rain and wind from the hurricane than originally predicted. Even schools are being cancelled. I live in an area surrounded by huge pines which tend to fall when there is too much rain and wind. So, if you do not see a post by me on Friday or the website is down, hang in there. I will try to make an announcement on Twitter if that happens.


The history behind the celebrity centered conference known as T4G:

It’s about a specific group of celebrities who thought the name was rather cute. Together for the Gospel really means ” 4 best buddies who hang together for the gospel™ as defined by them.

Here is what TWW posted back in 2012

Ligon Duncan spilled the beans on the T4G blog several years ago by explaining:

“T4G is a biennial conference that grew out of a set of now Gospel friendships. Mark Dever, Al Mohler, C.J. Mahaney and I had all been friends for a number of years (Mark, Al and I have known one another since the 1980s, and Mark introduced Al and me to C.J.).”

At one time the link to Duncan’s comment on the T4G blog worked (http://www.t4g.org/blog/page/3/); however, the website has been revamped and the Together for the Gospel blog no longer exists. Oh well… At least we know with certainty who introduced C.J. Mahaney to Al Mohler and Ligon Duncan, namely Mark Dever.

Here is a link to all of the posts TWW has written about T4G.

in 2010, TWW noted that there was a bit of a split occurring over ordinances of the church.

In BREAKING FELLOWSHIP OVER “ORDINANCES” AT T4G

In this post, we quoted the following from Sam Storms.

“Ligon Duncan, on the other hand, is a Presbyterian paedo-baptist. Because of this, both Mark Dever and Al Mohler made it clear that if Duncan were in attendance at either of their churches they would not permit him to partake of the elements of the Lord’s Supper.”

Let me repeat that. Because of Duncan’s paedo-baptist convictions, both Dever and Mohler would prohibit his participation in the Eucharist. They would deny to him partnership in the table of our Lord. They would withhold the bread and the cup from him because of his disagreement with them on who are the proper recipients of Christian baptism.

As best I can tell (and I’m open to correction on this point), since Jesus clearly commanded (believer’s) baptism, a paedo-baptist (says Dever in his recent blog post) is guilty of “disobedience” and “unrepentant sin” (however unintentional it may be) and is thus disqualified from participating in the Lord’s Table”.

….I have tremendous respect for both Mark Dever (whom I count as a good, personal friend) and Al Mohler (although I don’t know Dr. Mohler personally). Truly I do. They are both an incalculable blessing to the body of Christ. I also agree with them concerning the proper subjects of Christian baptism. But I find it remarkable that they would turn away Ligon Duncan from that ordinance of the church that above all else signifies and expresses the unity of the brethren in the body of Christ.

This may be offensive to some, but the claim to be “Together for the Gospel” rings a bit hollow to me when some would decline to fellowship with others around the Lord’s Table because of their disagreement on the proper recipients of baptism.”

Now, I’m not here to tell churches how to do communion. I am Lutheran, after all. However, it was apparent to me that there were going to be problems down the line. Imagine Dever saying that Duncan was guilty of disobedience and unrepentant sin for his views on communion?  There was no nuance. No love exhibited. No grace extended. No agreeing to disagree. Nope he threw out the sin card.  Meanwhile Dever demonstrated his own superiority by patting himself on his sin free back.

I got to thinking about all of the differences between these BFFs and predicted that there would be problems going forward. This is the year in which it is happening.

Who was part of the in crowd of T4G?

lyBelow is the picture of the former tight friends:

First row (left to right): David Platt, John MacArthur, John Piper, Kevin DeYoung, Thabiti Anyabwile
Second Row (left to right): Matt Chandler, CJ Mahaney, Al Mohler, Ligon Duncan, and Mark Dever.

Missing: Bob Kauflin, CJs right hand man, who always did the music at the conference. He was never in the picture but his presence was a given

Now, notice the green x on the faces of those who will not be attending/speaking:
John MacArthur, Thabiti Anyabwile, Matt Chandler, CJ Mahaney. Bob Kauflin will not be doing the music even though he is never in these pictures. He was always there but no more.

CJ Mahaney and Bob Kauflin: SGM/SGC ministry plagued by reports of child Sex Abuse coverup. They are most likely permanently gone/

This year, Al Mohler finally threw Mahaney under the bus and distanced himself from Sovereign Grace Churches  which leaked over to Bob Kauflin. Here is a link to the T4G page that shows they featured the music from Sovereign Grace at their conference. (Scroll down to see the music listed.)

Al Mohler finally gspoke out against CJ Mahaney but the rest of the gospel dudes in this picture have no done so publicly or specifically. Piper likes going to Mahaney’s church from time to time but has been rather quiet as of late.

Sadly, every single one of the men in this lineup protected Mahaney in spite of numerous warnings of the reports of abuse in that ministry. Only Al Mohler has spoken out against Mahaney and his churches and that took years to accomplish. The rest of them have been quiet. Some even continue to recommend Mahaney’s books.

Bob Kauflin is almost as much to blame for the pain in Sovereign Grace as Mahaney and that is most likely why he hasn’t been invited back.

Matt Chandler: Plagued by reports of mishandling of counseling and abuse and a pending lawsuit at a time when these guys are supposed to be *caring well* for victims of abuse. He is not making his annual celebrity appearance.

Chandler/The Village Church is being sued for $1 million by the victims who was molested/raped at a TVC camp. Chandler’s church has had some bad publicity.: Karen Hinkley,  Counseling issues, the clean steak company, etc. I’ve heard there is more to come as well. And he was supposed to be the kinder, gentler Mark Driscoll.

To make matters worse, Chandler has essentially outed the membership covenant. It is a legal contract, a fact that the gospel boys have been hiding for years and I’ve been talking about for years.

They want him back. Remember, they threw out Mahaney once or twice but always managed to bring him back until Mohler got called on the carpet for laughing about Mahaney’s wretched google presence.

I just heard that he is leading a tour to Alaska with his wife so he is still benefiting from his status. Don’t shed any tears for his lost opportunity.

 

John MacArthur and the anti social justice gospel divide. Now he is gone from the lineup.

Here is a link to John MacArthur’s The Statement on Social Justice & the Gospel. 

Specifically, we are deeply concerned that values borrowed from secular culture are currently undermining Scripture in the areas of race and ethnicity, manhood and womanhood, and human sexuality. The Bible’s teaching on each of these subjects is being challenged under the broad and somewhat nebulous rubric of concern for “social justice.” If the doctrines of God’s Word are not uncompromisingly reasserted and defended at these points, there is every reason to anticipate that these dangerous ideas and corrupted moral values will spread their influence into other realms of biblical doctrines and principles.

Here is a link to John MacArthur’s explanation of The Injustice of Social Justice

Al Mohler refused to sign John MacArthur’s social gospel statement link:

The point that Mohler spends a lot of time addressing relates to victims.

The Statement reads:

We reject any teaching that encourages racial groups to view themselves as privileged oppressors or entitled victims of oppression. While we are to weep with those who weep, we deny that a person’s feelings of offense or oppression necessarily prove that someone else is guilty of sinful behaviors, oppression or prejudice.

While Mohler does believe there is a victim “culture and industry” in our society, there are also real victims. “There are victims right now of social forces of oppression,” Mohler says. “Just because those on the radical left point to everything as oppression doesn’t mean that nothing is oppression.”

As believers, Mohler says, we have an obligation “to speak on behalf of the victims and not on behalf of the oppressors.”

If you read through the names who have signed MacArthur’s statement, you will see Tom Ascol’s name. Ascol has also added to further divisions in the SBC as the head of The Founders. I predict further splits. Rumors abound that Tom Ascol is going to run for President of the SBC. This will be awkward since some of the current leaders are supportive of social justice initiatives.

Do a Google search with the terms The Gospel Coalition and social justice. Here is one result.The FAQs: What Christians Should Know About Social Justice by Joe Carter.

Whether we use the term or not, Christians are engaged in social justice when we advocate for issues such as abortion, racial reconciliation, religious liberty, and sex trafficking. We engage in social justice whenever we seek moral reform of our society in a way that ensures every person is treated with dignity and given their due. As Mark Tooley says,

Christians and churches definitely should advocate social justice in the sense that ever sinful society needs constant moral reform. The church’s chief tool in this advocacy is the gospel itself. Redeemed humanity is likelier to care about justice than unregenerate humanity. But even the redeemed need an ethical framework for social renewal. And even the non-redeemed can be enlisted in good causes with appeals to conscience, natural law and self-interest.

…Social justice, as a biblical concept, is not a term we should abandon without a fight. To paraphrase Colson, we should not shrink from the term nor allow the secular world to distort its biblical meaning.

It appears obvious that there are differing views on the subject. However, it is my impression that there is a major split occurring along these lines. John MacArthur was in no mood to let this fall under the tertiary issue category. I bet he is also upset that Mohler refused to sign his statement. I find it rather interesting that Tom Ascol did. Get ready for fireworks when it comes to social justice. It may end up being the new *complementarianism issue* in the coming months. In other words, sides will form. In fact, it appears they already have.

Thabiti Anyabwile and the social justice/racial justice dividing line.

Thabiti attempts to engage Tom Ascol’s anti social justice platform in Is There an Evangelical ‘Social Justice Movement’?

Tom Ascol is one of the chief spokesmen against “social justice” among conservative evangelicals in the United States. He is one of the framers of the Statement on Social Justice and the Gospel and as executive director of Founders Ministries has hosted or participated in a variety of conferences, podcasts, and blogs sounding the alarm against “social justice.” Arguably, Tom has invested as much or more energy in anti-social justice efforts as anyone else.

,,,Jarvis Williams’s Book Recommendation. First, Tom mentions Jarvis Williams of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary as someone introducing CRT into SBC institutions. His evidence for this claim is Jarvis recommending someone read Richard Delgado’s book on critical race theory (see Ascol’s comments beginning at the 13’ 40” mark). Here’s Tom’s comments:

Jarvis Williams, professor at SBTS, has urged every evangelical to read Delgado’s book. He did so because evangelicals tend to be decades behind on critical race discussions. Delgado openly admits CRT grows out of radical feminism, built on Antonio Gramsci and Jacques Derrida. You can’t follow Gramsci and Derrida and follow Jesus Christ.

That book recommendation is enough in Tom’s mind to associate Jarvis with a Satan-inspired incursion of worldly ideologies shifting people away from biblical truth. It’s a heavy charge—especially since it’s highly doubtful Jarvis’s intent was ever to suggest that following Gramsci and Derrida would be an appropriate way to follow Jesus.

Anyabwile also posted Why Engage the ‘Social Justice Debate’ Now?

It appears obvious to me that Anyabwile is not pleased with how this discussion is proceeding. A few of us have heard rumors that some of the TGC members are not pleased with Thabiti’s fanning of the flame. Now, Thabaiti is gone from the lineup.

Is the Calvinist conservative resurgence in danger of fracturing?

That remains to be seen but it looks like things are not going particularly well for these celebrity BFFs.  It sure is an interesting time to be a blogger.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and predictions.


Comments

Who’s In and Who’s Out at T4G 2020 and What Does It Mean? — 172 Comments

  1. I’m thinking Al Mohler needs a picket, because he said that childless people weren’t human since we didn’t have children. I’m going to be blunt about this–it’s flat-out bigotry. Just as the “complementarian” gospel has nothing to say to the millions of people who are single, divorced or widowed, so too the belittling of childless people just shows how narrow and cramped their “gospel” is.

    I cannot understand why people do not confront Mohler over this–unless they happen to agree with him. If that’s the case, than maybe their whole arrangement needs to (figuratively) come crashing down. If you’re excluding so many people from your “gospel”, then what good news is your “gospel”? Oh WAIT. I forgot, I guess Mohler and his buddies have decided that only certain people who follow their beliefs are among the predestined saved of the Calvinist deity. Whatevs.

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  2. Things fall apart.
    These relationships became about supporting each other in their respective lies and schemes. “Guys we have got to hang together or we will hang apart.”
    They are no longer able to hang together….

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  3. I have a better idea: abolish T4G altogether. If there’s any money left over after the shutdown, divide it among the sex abuse victims at the churches represented by the pastors kicked out of next year’s conference.

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  4. Every time I see a picture of John Piper in a group like this, I’m reminded of how short he is.
    It’s hard not to think his horrendous views on women and their “God-given” role to be submissive to men in general stems from profound feelings of inferiority and inadequacy.
    Wayne Grudem, if I recall correctly, is also below average height.

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  5. “I just heard that he is leading a tour to Alaska with his wife so he is still benefiting from his status. Don’t shed any tears for his lost opportunity.”
    +++++++++++

    sort of surprised that the fact that cruise ships are floating dubai’s is lost on these christian celebrities who enjoy expensive luxury vacations, call it ministry and consider it work. (I’m guessing it’s all-expenses paid; perhaps they are handsomely compensated, as well.)

    do these ministers of Jesus Christ even notice the extremely long hours the service crew works, every day, no days off, how deeply tired they are in their eyes, how they are required to keep working with cheerful smiles to cater to the passengers every indulgent whim? and hear them complain because the dish of hashbrowns is being refilled and they had to wait? 11 hour days, with at most 1 hour break.

    these ‘luxury ministry cruises’ are one of the worst and most embarrassing excesses of the wealth-&-power-fueled celebrity christian industry.

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  6. It’s 2 am here in Canada, and Dorian is now a Category 3, 115 miles out to sea and causing flooding in downtown Charleston SC.

    You’ve got a rough ride ahead in NC by the looks of it.

    Be safe Dee.

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  7. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: ’m thinking Al Mohler needs a picket, because he said that childless people weren’t human since we didn’t have children. I’m going to be blunt about this–it’s flat-out bigotry. Just as the “complementarian” gospel has nothing to say to the millions of people who are single, divorced or widowed, so too the belittling of childless people just shows how narrow and cramped their “gospel” is.

    Add his views on women to that, and I think he’s blowing a lot of hot air. I think he believes strongly in class divides, but he likes to pretend men aren’t in that to attract more of them. But in the churches he supports, he clearly believes some men should be over the rest. That’s what their whole covenant system is about. I really don’t think him and Ascol are all that much different in their views, Mohler just isn’t honest about his.

    MacArthur is a whole other story, because he just makes up definitions to social justice and then uses those strawmen definitions to present himself as some anti-social justice warrior. But Mohler is right that the definition is much wider than MacArthur says it is.

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  8. Prayers for all in the path of Dorian! I have friends in Wilmington and Leland. My Wilmington friends have already evacuated to Charlotte, where they have relatives. My son is at NC State, not far from Dee, but those new brick monstrosities on Centennial Campus are built like fortresses, so I’m thinking (hoping and praying) all will be well. The forecast seems to change by the hour. Just so ready for this horrible storm to go away. The devastation in the Bahamas is unbelievable. Lord have mercy!

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  9. I think at the end of the day, the main dividing line will be on the SJW front.
    You see the fissure starting in the SBC.
    Al Mohler has been a constant at R C Sproul’s Ligonier ministries conference circuit
    He has been removed from their list of speakers ( this is a huge turn of events, al was entrenched there)
    I think the lord’s table dust up, may be a formal way to try to keep disagreements on some fronts anyway on a theological level.
    To me it will be very interesting to see if John MacArthur honors his word and keeps allowing Al to speak at his Shepherds conference ( if Al is removed, then we will know it is a full blown divorce)

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  10. All of this just goes to show that these men’s “gospel” has nothing to do with Jesus, has nothing to do with “doing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with God” but rather with their own obsession with authority and control and micromanaging everyone else’s beliefs and behavior.

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  11. Meredithwiggle:
    All of this just goes to show that these men’s “gospel” has nothing to do with Jesus, has nothing to do with “doing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with God” but rather with their own obsession with authority and control and micromanaging everyone else’s beliefs and behavior.

    Amen!

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  12. FYI – Storm

    Raleigh is in an interesting spot. The east side of Wake county may get some serious wind and rain. Think 40mph or more wind speeds and 1 foot of rain. The west side of the county might get a stiff breeze and some drops. And a shift of the track by a few miles can change all of that for good or bad. This means that we prep for the worst and at times get only a cloudy day.

    BTW, our site is cloud hosted which means it is located in Arizona, California, Illinois, Virginia, the Netherlands or Singapore. Places way out of the way of the storm.

    Dee and I may go dark but the site will likely stay up.

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  13. IMO, MacArthur was never a fit with the New Calvinist bunch. In selfies with the YRR at past T4G conferences, he just looked uncomfortable and out of place. He only hung with them long enough to sell more MacArthur Study Bibles.

    With Mahaney permanently out of the picture, the Fab Four has been reduced to a trio, but they aren’t singing in harmony these days. Too much collective arrogance for them to get along for too long. Look for more separations down the road.

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  14. Meredithwiggle,

    I was going to say something like this, but you did already…
    When it is summarized as Dee did, the “sillyness” of it all really stands out.. never mind all the abuse victims, we each need assert our authority over our righteous doctrine..

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  15. The T4G-2020 conference theme is “Entrusted with the Gospel.” To the New Calvinists, of course, this means “Entrusted with Calvinism.” They seriously believe that they alone have been entrusted with the “gospel” and it is up to them to restore it (Calvinism) to the rest of Christendom (90+%) which lost it along the way. T4G is arrogance in motion.

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  16. I wonder whether something deeper may come in to view — perhaps there is an emerging disagreement about “what ‘the Church’ is for”.

    My perception from my private tour of parts of US evangelicalism over 4+ decades (UMC, then IFB, then EFCA, CMA, and OPC) is that the basic understanding is kind of ‘gnostic’ in that the visible material creation is not that important, and social relations ‘under the sun’ don’t matter that much either. What matters is whether you go to heaven or hell when you die, and the mission of the church is to divert people from the latter destination to the former.

    The ‘old guard predestinarian baptist’ concerns about social justice might be rooted in a fear that this ultimately undermines the theology and practice of the churches that is essential for ‘snatching smoldering brands from the fire.’

    From that perspective of ‘what matters most’, ‘social justice’ concerns can look like window dressing the cabins of a sinking cruise liner. It’s a diversion from ‘the thing that matters so much more than everything else that everything else essentially doesn’t matter at all.’

    On this view, the ‘evangelistic mandate’ is so much more important than the ‘cultural mandate’ that attention paid to the latter can look like sin to those pre-occupied with the former.

    If you think God is going to destroy everything ‘under the sun’ with an outpouring of fiery wrath, efforts to improve those things can look pointless.

    (full disclosure: my private views are essentially ‘preterist’, that Jesus’ and the apostles’ warnings of coming wrath were fulfilled in the first century AD. I consequently see a lot of value in trying to make things better ‘under the sun’ in the sense of wisely stewarding the creation and pursuing justice. We don’t have a clear sense of what lies ahead and so it might be the case, as people like NT Wright have asserted, that there is a role for believers to play ‘under the sun’ in the renewal of creation)

    It will be fascinating to see how this fracture evolves.

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  17. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Oh WAIT. I forgot, I guess Mohler and his buddies have decided that only certain people who follow their beliefs are among the predestined saved of the Calvinist deity.

    With the additional perk of watching the Reprobates burn in Hell for all Eternity.
    “ME SHEEP! YOU GOATS! HAW! HAW! HAW!”

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  18. Max: The T4G-2020 conference theme is “Entrusted with the Gospel.” To the New Calvinists, of course, this means “Entrusted with Calvinism.”

    I actually don’t even think they are promoting Calvinism anymore, just themselves in a cult-like system.

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  19. Max: With Mahaney permanently out of the picture, the Fab Four has been reduced to a trio, but they aren’t singing in harmony these days. Too much collective arrogance for them to get along for too long. Look for more separations down the road

    Like Highlander and Game of Thrones, There Can Be Only One.

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  20. It’s wonderfully convenient to label every hungry or oppressed person “entitled,” and to discover through deep analysis that every single effort to help is “socialist.”

    T4G is just one more Christian group devoted to exclusion. From the get-go, the “wrong” people have been trying to pitch in, and the “right” people have thwarted their efforts. Luke 9:49-50 reads, John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him; for whoever is not against you is for you.”

    How did the freelance exorcist know about Jesus? Maybe he heard Jesus preach earlier, but also saw the disciples acting up and decided to avoid them. Perhaps he was the first reformer… or the first guy written off as a socialist.

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  21. Friend,

    Or maybe he tried to follow Jesus and was kept away from him by ‘the twelve’. They were jostling among themselves for the best spots in what they believed was a coming visible ‘Jesus administration’ in Jerusalem. We know that they tried to prevent parents bringing their children to Jesus to be blessed by him.

    Off-topic, but I suspect that there is a connection between Jesus’ ‘johannine supper discourse’ emphases on ‘love one another’ and the ‘promise of the Spirit’ who would not come while Jesus remained among them. On second thought, maybe that isn’t so far off-topic.

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  22. Max: The thing I like about the New Calvinist celebrities is that they talk too much … and, in doing so, dig their own graves eventually.

    It’s that “eventually” part that gets me. Plus the thought that while it’s good Al opens his mouth, not enough people are telling him he’s has bigoted ideas. He’s not getting enough pushback.

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  23. ishy: I actually don’t even think they are promoting Calvinism anymore, just themselves in a cult-like system.

    Hmmm … a quick glance at T4G’s new page on “Affirmations and Denials” does appear to diminish their reformed core. Of course, all the who’s who on the speaking platform are true-blue New Calvinists.

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  24. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: … Al opens his mouth, not enough people are telling him he’s has bigoted ideas. He’s not getting enough pushback.

    You push a King too far and your head will roll. I keep thinking that some brave prophet with a soul-piercing stare will rise to the occasion, shout “You are the man!”, silence Big Al, and push him into obscurity … but I don’t see much movement in that direction yet.

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  25. Max: a quick glance at T4G’s new page on “Affirmations and Denials” does appear to diminish their reformed core. Of course, all the who’s who on the speaking platform are true-blue New Calvinists.

    I think they need a faith “platform” to convince Christians they should follow, but I don’t think they are beholden to it.

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  26. I’m late has someone already made a friend are friends forever joke about chandlers cruise?

    On the Critical Race theory, I’m actually interested in how it supposedly grew out of ‘radical’ feminism but also…they just assert that that alone makes it ‘unbiblical’ which is typical, but not supported by any data that I can see.

    Radical feminism seems very undefined…it’s probably just regular feminism.

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  27. I basically look at this as 4 guys that weren’t allowed to sign the T4G member$hip contract because they are under “para-church” discipline!

    I wonder if Matt Chandler’s participation in the Alaskan cruise was approved by those T4G members still in good standing?

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  28. Benn: I think at the end of the day, the main dividing line will be on the SJW front.

    As far as I can see, none of the semi’pro’ SJW folks want women to be equal or to respect gay people, so we’re really just left with race as a vector.

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  29. Max: You push a King too far and your head will roll. I keep thinking that some brave prophet with a soul-piercing stare will rise to the occasion, shout “You are the man!”, silence Big Al, and push him into obscurity … but I don’t see much movement in that direction yet.

    Agreed.

    Anyone SBC who speaks out against Pope Albert I of Louisville does so at their own peril. Breaking the SBC 11th Commandment is serious.

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  30. Pure speculation here, but I don’t believe Mohler really believes what he says about social justice. Mohler is a pragmatist. He believes that social justice will attract more millennials and people of color to become SBC giving units.

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  31. ishy: I actually don’t even think they are promoting Calvinism anymore, just themselves in a cult-like system.

    If they’re giving real presbyterians a hard time, it’s pretty clear that reformed doctrine isn’t really the important thing to them.

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  32. ishy: I actually don’t even think they are promoting Calvinism anymore, just themselves in a cult-like system.

    I don’t believe the SBC leadership has to promote Calvinism. All of the SBC seminaries are Calvinist controlled, ensuring a continuous supply of Calvinist pastors for the next generation.

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  33. Lea: Radical feminism seems very undefined…it’s probably just regular feminism.

    They had to get away from the “barefoot and pregnant” stereotypes so they said they were for feminism which allows a woman to shop, pick a menu, drive a car, earn pin money, etc…

    Radical feminism is all that leftist stuff that destroys the family.

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  34. Lea: On the Critical Race theory, I’m actually interested in how it supposedly grew out of ‘radical’ feminism but also…they just assert that that alone makes it ‘unbiblical’ which is typical, but not supported by any data that I can see.

    Critical Race Theory did NOT grow out of radical feminism! It grew out of law school professors reflecting on how the law is used by those who hold power to oppress those who don’t hold power.

    Here’s the Wikipedia on CRT:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory

    One would like to think that we’re all equal under the law, but we’re not. The framework of CRT points out that there isn’t equal justice under law, but that justice depends on social and racial factors.

    The problem with people like MacArthur is they don’t want to acknowledge the layers of privilege they enjoy as white male religious leaders. Just to give an example, from the religious side-MacArthur’s church doesn’t pay taxes and doesn’t have to show its books to *anyone*. That’s a privilege MacArthur enjoys. (Although I suspect Johnny Mac tried to run his university the same way he runs his church, and he’s run smack into the accrediting agency.) Criticsl Race Theory and intersectionality look at these things.

    I am NOT NOT NOT an expert but I can say this is generally NOT part of law school curriculum today. It’s a theoretical framework for looking at law and society. But the fact that opponents of CRT get its history wrong says volumes to me.

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  35. Ken P.: Agreed.

    Anyone SBC who speaks out against Pope Albert I of Louisville does so at their own peril. Breaking the SBC 11th Commandment is serious.

    I am very tired of Pope Albert I. He should not be able to get up and declare childless adults are not truly human because we didn’t have children. I’m going to state it again-it’s bigotry, and if Southern Baptists think this or Evangelicals think this, then the whole structure neess to be (figuratively) torn down. Jesus didn’t tell Al to say that.

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  36. Muslin: “But the fact that opponents of CRT get its history wrong says volumes to me.”

    Thank you so much for the explanation! I was struck by their trying to use ‘feminism’ to discount it entirely. Makes sense that pretty much everything here is wrong.

    Speaking of ‘radical’ feminism, saw RBG speak and it was fantastic but also she was talking about gender discrimination cases and these were from the 70’s…its so irritating how these guys act like everything has been peachy since women got the right to vote legally, so like, what does feminism possibly have to complain about? One of the cases involved the courts giving a child to his father for a stupid reason and it resulted in the child’s death. Another involved a father who couldn’t get death benefits to raise his children because women were the ones who were supposed to be home and the laws worked against him. So…you would think the ‘family values’ people would care about these things! These were in modern times.

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  37. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    This is why “the powers that be” do not like us bloggers. All we have to is document the things that these “leaders “ say, and keep brining it up, these “leaders” credibility will continue erode…
    i agree, not saying people without kids are “sub-hman” is bigotry, it directly goes against what Paul says about himself and not being married… either Good old “Al” does not know his Bible, or he thinks the masses are stupid and do not know the Bible…..

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  38. Catholic Gate-Crasher:
    Prayers for all in the path of Dorian! I have friends in Wilmington and Leland. My Wilmington friends have already evacuated to Charlotte, where they have relatives. My son is at NC State, not far from Dee, but those new brick monstrosities on Centennial Campus are built like fortresses, so I’m thinking (hoping and praying) all will be well. The forecast seems to change by the hour. Just so ready for this horrible storm to go away. The devastation in the Bahamas is unbelievable. Lord have mercy!

    I checked in on noted disaster expert and part-time Calvinist R.C. Sproul Jr., and he reminds us that it’s all good. God sent the hurricane. “That God is sovereign over calamity isn’t something embarrassing about God that He is in heaven hoping we never figure out. It is something He delights in, something He is proud of.” … “God creates creates calamity, for his glory.”

    https://rcsprouljr.com/does-god-send-hurricanes/

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  39. I wonder when the SBC will be happy. The “conservative resurgence” got rid of all of us “dangerous liberals”, so all should have been theologically perfect. But being “conservative” wasn’t enough, one had to become a Calvinist.
    WHAT’S NEXT?

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  40. westerner: I checked in on noted disaster expert and part-time Calvinist R.C. Sproul Jr., and he reminds us that it’s all good. God sent the hurricane. “That God is sovereign over calamity isn’t something embarrassing about God that He is in heaven hoping we never figure out. It is something He delights in, something He is proud of.” … “God creates creates calamity, for his glory.”

    I’ll pay for a coach round trip ticket so Spanky Sproul can preach this dreck in Freeport, The Bahamas. In public. I will not pay for the extra cost of Sproul being shoved on the next flight out after being determined an undesirable person by the Bahamian government.

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  41. Luckyforward: The “conservative resurgence” … being “conservative” wasn’t enough, one had to become a Calvinist

    SBC’s “Conservative Resurgence” was really a “Calvinist Resurgence” in disguise. I’m not sure that even the CR leaders realized it at the time … but Mohler knew what he was doing – he is a brilliant strategist!

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  42. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    This is a profound statement..
    I have always heard that a translation of the word “gospel” is “good news”. The SBC sure seems to have allot of leaders, and want-a-be leaders that are not very happy…. and unhappy with each other

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  43. Ken P.: I don’t believe the SBC leadership has to promote Calvinism. All of the SBC seminaries are Calvinist controlled, ensuring a continuous supply of Calvinist pastors for the next generation.

    Agreed. Mission accomplished. Mohler won. Just about every SBC entity leader was put in place by King Mohler … the generational shift of SBC belief and practice is occurring. When the remaining traditionalist (non-Calvinist) baby boomers die, the SBC will be securely in the hands of the new reformers and the denominational evangelistic gifting of Southern Baptists will be dead, too.

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  44. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I’ll pay for a coach round trip ticket so Spanky Sproul can preach this dreck in Freeport, The Bahamas. In public. I will not pay for the extra cost of Sproul being shoved on the next flight out after being determined an undesirable person by the Bahamian government.

    I find it amusing that Spanky Sproul does not allow comments on his Facebook page.

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  45. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I’m going to state it again-it’s bigotry, and if Southern Baptists think this or Evangelicals think this, then the whole structure neess to be (figuratively) torn down.

    I don’t think a tear-down is necessary.
    In my opinion, it’s digging its own grave so to speak.
    As more and more tithing units leave the pews, Mohlerism will not end with a bang, it will end with a whimper.
    (with apologies to T.S. Eliot)

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  46. Jeffrey Chalmers: This is a profound statement..

    It’s pretty sad when a sarcastic statement about a group like this is actually a profound statement.

    I wonder if the SBC has really taken a hard look at where their numbers are heading, or whether they are just patting each other on the back.

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  47. The split on baptism between these guys is interesting. One of the last major things Piper did before his retirement was to produce and bring to the congregation a proposal from the elders, to slightly relax the membership requirements so that some people who were baptized as infants could become members at BBC. Piper preached on it and said the same kind of thing you said about communion, above: In essence, “We know many people with solid Reformed theology, that we partner with in ministries, listen to as speakers, invite as guest preachers, etc., who could not become members here.” And he didn’t think that was right.

    The proposal was very carefully crafted. The most important point is that BBC would continue to preach/teach/practice credobaptism EXCLUSIVELY — they would NOT baptize infants, or teach that it was a biblical alternative. In order to become a member, you had to meet with the elders, who would encourage you to undergo believer’s baptism — and they had to be convinced that your unwillingness to be re-baptized as an adult was a clear matter of conscience.

    And it was voted down. It’s one of the few times I’ve ever seen at BBC when even a controversial proposal from the elders was not approved by large margins. For these Baptists, even a narrow infant baptism exception was a bridge too far. So the elders dropped it, and it’s never been revisited. My suspicion is that Piper was the driving force, that for him it was personal, because of these T4G relationships… but I don’t know that for sure.

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  48. Daisy: Does anyone know if Thabiti Anyabwile has ever repented of supporting Christian sexism (complementarianism), or is he still complementarian and defending it?

    I don’t remember seeing anything, but I think he is a big Prince fan. I hear he now wants to be called The Pastor formerly known as Ron Burns.

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  49. @ Ken F and Jeffrey Chalmers;

    I could be wrong, but based upon the curious verbal gymnastics displayed by Al Mahler in recent days, simultaneously condoning/denying teaching of Critical Race Theory at SBTS, …my ‘guess’ is that he has lost hope in propagating large masses of white pew-sitters, …and is now ‘reduced’ to courting the favor of potential attendees, whom are black and Hispanic.

    I’d have no problem at all with Mr. Mohler publicly announcing he is going ‘all-in’ on CRT, …it is rather the strategic duplicity, that is so disappointing to witness, in such a public figure. We cannot have it both ways.

    Although I don’t believe a specific theology built around CRT is necessary, (since justice, mercy and humility are all clearly implied/specified in scripture), I wouldn’t break fellowship over differing views. But for all the presumed efforts to serve as a minister of reconciliation (no pun intended), and defend the faith, the double-minded political posturing observed, is a grievous wound to those within and without the organized church.

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  50. Thabiti Anyabwile remains on the all-male Council of TGC:

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/about/council/#council

    Repenting of complementarianism would entail resigning from the TGC Council:

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/tgc-podcast/whats-not-essential-complementarianism/

    “The Gospel Coalition’s Foundation Documents articulate the theological view known as complementarianism. Every member of TGC’s Council subscribes to this belief.”

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  51. ___

    “Extreme Vulgar 501c3 Religious Ways, Perhaps?” [1]

    hmmm…

    ‘Together For The Gospel’ (T4G) , ‘The Gospel Coalition’ (TGC) , Acts29, Grace To You, 9Marks, SGC, and SBTS, really means ‘those’ who pride themselves on supporting the ‘Limited Atonement’ ™ gospel…

    What?

    i.e. —That God destines certain immortal souls to eternal hell prior to their conception because it apparently brings the god they serve divine glory. What a God they serve… ? Whoa!

    SKreeeeeeeeetch!

    Q. How ‘great’ are those individuals who present this profoundly disgusting 501c3 so called ‘good news’ ™ religion?

    Q. How privileged it is to be a part of this nefarious 501c3 Augustinian Gnostic madness?

    Would ‘YOU’ stand in line 4 this?

    Q. There is always room in ‘life’ for this?

    Ya think?

    Q. RU serving the wrong god?

    bump.

    Closing your mind?

    Could b.

    (s a d f à c e)

    Sòpy

    Intermission:
    [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ftm1hiXgYsA

    ;~)§

    – –

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  52. Tweet thread from last year:

    https://twitter.com/ThabitiAnyabwil/status/1002272668488491008

    “The roles of men and women fit *beneath* this imago Dei umbrella. Men lead *to show forth the likeness of God.* Women help *to show forth the likeness of God.* Men and women/husbands and wives partner together to image forth God more completely if you will.”

    He has repented for ‘failing to love and protect Beth Moore and other sisters’:

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/thabiti-anyabwile/apology-beth-moore-sisters/

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  53. after this year’s Mother’s Day flap:

    https://twitter.com/ThabitiAnyabwil/status/1135236825373655040

    “there’s something decidedly UNmanly about men in leadership attacking women in the name of ‘complementarianism’…The vitriol coming from some quarters simply seems disproportionate and angry. Some men write as if they’re in street fights with men…real men should be tender with women especially when we disagree…To be clear I’m not even talking @ male comp’ss engaging female *egalitarians.* I’m seeing the vitriol and animus aimed at women who themselves are complementarians”

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  54. Jerome: “there’s something decidedly UNmanly about men in leadership attacking women in the name of ‘complementarianism’…The vitriol coming from some quarters simply seems disproportionate and angry.

    You know…if he thought about it a minute he might get that it’s really just misogyny and that’s why they hate women who are complementarian as well as egalitarians – they shouldn’t hate either. But they do.

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  55. Jerome,

    Jerome, in your edits out “But, actually, some of them never take those tones with men or male peers.”

    EXACTLY. They hate women. It’s right there in front of him…He does say “some people may be mistaking complementarity with gendered power. ”

    Yes. That’s the entire point of it.

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  56. Origin story of T4G revealed:

    Apparently it was Joshua Harris and his New Attitude conference that brought together “The 4” of T4G (Mark, CJ, Lig, Al)…

    [Dever’s 9Marksist lieutenant Aaron Menikoff and Joshua Harris were both from Portland. Menikoff came to DC in 1994 to work for progressive Republican Senator from Oregon (and CHBC member) Mark Hatfield, then became Dever’s first ‘pastoral assistant’ in 1996]

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Z15_zI8SJyAC&pg=PA12

    Mark Dever: “Don Whitney advised me to meet [CJ] when I moved to the DC area. I neglected to do so, but in God’s providence Aaron Menikoff…wanted to stop at [Covenant Life] church and get a copy of Josh Harris’s book I Kissed Dating Goodbye (Josh was associate pastor there at the time). I…decided to try to find C. J. and introduce myself. But C. J. was in a meeting, so I simply left my card.”

    “He phoned me a few days later, and we had the first of what has become a series of enjoyable, edifying, challenging, intense lunches. C. J. has been a unique counselor to me since that first day, telling me what to do”

    “C. J. soon met Lig Duncan through their mutual involvement in the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood…Sometime later I traveled to join C. J. at a New Attitude conference in Louisville. We met up with Al, and the three of us had a great time talking. We all commented on the fact that we missed having Ligon there, so we arranged to try to have him join us at our next meeting. And he did! This was the first of many such gatherings. It was at one of those meetings that…we came up with the idea of holding a conference at which the four of us would speak”

    “Matt Schmucker of 9Marks led…in the organization and administration of the [T4G] conference with remarkable help (an understatement!) from Paul Medler and the Sovereign Grace Ministries conference team”

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  57. T4G was modeled on John MacArthur’s Shepherds Conference:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060328165628/http://blog.togetherforthegospel.org/2006/03/california_drea.html

    Mark Dever, ‘California Dreamin’

    “Throughout the week Matt Schmucker (9Marks) & Paul Medler (Sovereign Grace) were there, getting expert help from Dan Dumas in preparing for the Together for the Gospel Conference.”

    https://web.archive.org/web/20060331155439/http://blog.togetherforthegospel.org/2006/03/shepherds_confe.html

    Ligon Duncan, ‘Shepherds Conference Afterglow’

    “It was a blessing to be with John MacArthur and his team, and the good folks of Grace Community Church at this year’s Shepherds’ Conference. I have never been so well-taken care of in my life”

    “some of the highlights…Dan Dumas is a genius at organization…It was great to meet Phil Johnson…Staying up late talking with Mark, Al and CJ on Friday night. Can you say ‘more fun than a barrel full of monkeys’?…Got to hug Tom Ascol.”

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  58. About this:

    “This year, Al Mohler finally threw Mahaney under the bus and distanced himself from Sovereign Grace Churches”

    1) About time, Al …
    2) “threw Mahaney under the bus”? I don’t think so. To use the bus imagery, Mahaney and SG placed themselves there over the past 15-20 years. To change imagery, It is more like the drunk that fell asleep on the railroad tracks and got run over by a train. The surprise is not that it happened; it is that it took so long.

    I’m 10-years SG-free and reveling in it!

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  59. Dave: my ‘guess’ is that he has lost hope in propagating large masses of white pew-sitters, …and is now ‘reduced’ to courting the favor of potential attendees, whom are black and Hispanic.

    I’d like to expand on this very good point. Mohler’s theology, at its core, is not at all inclusive because he believes god only saves a few select and eternally punishes all the others. While he will state that the selection is not determined by such things as race or gender, there is no way to get around the fact that his god is not inclusive. The proof for this assertion is in the numerous articles by him affirming unconditional election and condemning all forms of universalism. Irrespective of the reasons why some are chosen and all the others are not, the result is division into the haves and the have-nots. When one has a theology like this, it should be no surprise to find shrinking churches where the have-nots don’t have a place at the table.

    If he now wants to be inclusive on order to increase numbers, he needs to find a hook that will not compromise his ideas on election. So his new emphasis might seem like a logical way for him to do this. But I don’t think it will be successful because inclusiveness is not at the core of his theology.

    I probably did not explain this well.

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  60. Sorry but I’ve removed your comment which was only a link. If you want to put a link to somewhere else you need to mention what’s there and how it relates to the post. Especially if you’re new here and have no track record.

    GBTC

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  61. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: The problem with people like MacArthur is they don’t want to acknowledge the layers of privilege they enjoy as white male religious leaders.

    And yet Thabiti Anyabwile along with Voddie Baucham enjoy the same perks (privilege and power) as lily-white John MacArthur.

    How is this possible if the sacred cows of progressivism (‘white privilege’ and ‘institutional racism’) supposedly hold sway in 21st century America?

    Yeah, yeah Potter, what’s your point?

    Simply this: I’ve become just as disillusioned with progressivism as I have with fundagelicalism during my time in country (as HUG would say) with Calvary Chapel.

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  62. I ask you Lord, to humble each and everyone of these questionable 501c3 religious credentialed leadership individuals who plague our nation with an all exclusive ‘Limited Atonement’ false, faith damaging, Augustinian Gnostic gospel. In Jesus’ name, Amen!

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  63. Friend,

    Yes but again what he says could be a continuation and development of what he said in his 2012 (Crossway”) book, “Finding Faithful Elders and Deacons” where he is discussing how elders watch their doctrine.
    “Having known what it is to believe and base my life on a lie, I am something of a heresy hunter. Now, by that term, I do not mean I am the type who searches under every rock for any error, however small, in order to slam the person and his error with all my might. Neither am I angry and vengeful when it comes to error. But I am seriously concerned by it. My personal sojourn affirms the importance of Paul’s admonition: “Watch your life and doctrine closely”

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  64. Ken F (aka Tweed): If he now wants to be inclusive on order to increase numbers, he needs to find a hook that will not compromise his ideas on election. So his new emphasis might seem like a logical way for him to do this. But I don’t think it will be successful because inclusiveness is not at the core of his theology.

    True, but on the other hand …if AM wishes to appear consistent in his application of social injustice remediation, it would seem inevitable that AM would have to experience a spiritual epiphany via what appears to be a new found ‘Theo-political football’ (Critical Race Theory), and consequently recognize women as yet, another oppressed class whom have likewise, been marginalized through systemic discrimination (gender-based, in this case) enabled by a white male majority, dominant within protestant hierarchical structures.

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  65. Lea: As far as I can see, none of the semi’pro’ SJW folks want women to be equal or to respect gay people, so we’re really just left with race as a vector.

    Lea,

    You are right. In the SBC, it’s all about race alone – at this point.

    The PCA is discussing sexuality. The SBC is not.

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  66. Friend,

    Sorry, you’ve lost me. Are you referring to P&P or Thabiti (whose quote it was)? And I don’t know what your last sentence means at all.
    I do see how people can argue that CRT stemmed from Gramsci’s idea of a cultural hegemony to maintain capitalism at the expense of the plebs.

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  67. Ken P.:
    Pure speculation here, but I don’t believe Mohler really believes what he says about social justice.Mohler is a pragmatist.He believes that social justice will attract more millennials and people of color to become SBC giving units.

    It’s worse than that. The things that Mohler has said about CRT/I and Social Justice are NOT flattering to begin with.

    But he and others in the SBC are trying to appeal to that current of thought in the younger generation.

    Mohler is now in a tough spot.

    The Provost at Southern, Matt Hall, says “I am a racist.” Of course Hall is not a real racist. But CRT/I teach that as a white man in society that he has privilege. He is racist because society is racist. All white people are racist unless they do their race work. And they are not allowed to ask a person of color what is sufficient race work to obtain absolution because that is putting things back on POCs (people of color) to explain things.

    In addition to the Provost, Southern has 2 Black professors, Curtis Wood and Jarvis Williams. Their are some interesting Youtube videos showing these guys and Hall saying all manner of really silly things that have nothing to do with Jesus.

    The people into SJ in the SBC thing this is the new facet of the Gospel that must be discussed and pursued.

    Mohler is stuck with these guys on his faculty. Mohler can’t fire a black professor from Southern. Can you imagine?

    So instead, Mohler has to say out of one side of his mouth that CRT/I and Social Justice are not taught at Southern. But out of the other side of his mouth has to support his Provost and faculty.

    In case you are wondering, this is a repeat of the history of Southern Seminary. In the late 20s and 30s the faculty at Southern had several folks who were neoorthodox. The then President, E.Y. Mullins, himself a conservative, had to project an image of Southern that was conservative to the rest of the denomination, but he also had to protect his faculty and the integrity of the institution.

    Mullins was very effective at this job. He had conservative biblical scholars on the faculty like A.T. Robertson, who was a popular teacher at Bible conferences and such. But he had others on the faculty who had little confidence in the OT and NT texts, and were scared to death of being seen as not up to date in scholarship.

    Mullins helped write the first Baptist Faith and Message, the SBC’s denominational confession, that protected the faculty, and he engaged in other activities that gave the faculty cover over the years.

    You didn’t have faculty on Youtube saying embarrassing things.

    Danny Akin at Southeastern Seminary is in the same boat. One of his faculty members, Walter Strickland, who is also an African American, gave an interview to Molly Werthan at the NYT. Werthan has written about Baptists for years. She immediately identified Strickland as singing off a different page of the hymnal, so to speak. Strickland told the NYT that he actually spreads the teachings of James Cone, Columbia Prof and father of Black Liberation Theology, but when he does so in local churches, he doesn’t tell the audience that the ideas he’s teaching are from Cone.

    Then, again, there are Youtube videos of Strickland recommending Cone’s works.

    However, one may feel about CRT/I and Black Liberation Theology, it’s pretty easy to see how this would not mix well with a denomination that has a confession like the Baptist Faith & Message. Matthew Hall even identified Billy Graham as problematic.

    So you see.

    There is a definitely some dissonance.

    Mohler is trying to straddle the fence on this one.

    Mohler has the youngsters and the denominational machinery.

    It has not been determined what effect this will have on the parents who had been sending kids to undergrad schools at Southern and Southeastern.

    It also has not been determined what effect this will have on the donor class. That’s another group seminary presidents have to keep happy.

    Trying to keep everyone happy has led to some interesting happenings. Mohler and Akin continue to deny that there is anyone at their schools teaching CRT/I or Black Liberation Theology.

    And Southern and Southern Eastern have even gone so far as to scrub offending videos and materials from their websites. Southeastern’s Kingdom Diversity materials on its website have been reduced substantially. Offending material that used to be visible has been removed.

    All of this is interesting. It’s hard to know how it will turn out.

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  68. Lowlandseer:
    Friend,

    Sorry, you’ve lost me. Are you referring to P&P or Thabiti (whose quote it was)? And I don’t know what your last sentence means at all.
    I do see how people can argue that CRT stemmed from Gramsci’s idea of a cultural hegemony to maintain capitalism at the expense of the plebs.

    Of course it did.

    The question is whether it can be “Christianized”. Mixed with Christian doctrine and sanctified.

    We’ve seen classical Marxism done this way. I know many socialists who are socialist because they think that is consistent with NT teaching.

    Walter Reuther, who build the Untied Auto Workers (UAW), was motivated in part by Christian conviction.

    Of course, we all know with the hindsight of the 20th Century that Marxism doesn’t work economically, and it doesn’t deliver on prosperity, human rights, environmentalism etc.

    But it sounds so good every generation produces a new crop of people who think the problem was with the people who didn’t do it right, and they are prepared to do it the right way.

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  69. ‘Together For The Gospel’ (T4G) , ‘The Gospel Coalition’ (TGC) , Acts29, Grace To You, 9Marks, SGC, and SBTS, really means ‘those’ who pride themselves on supporting the ‘Limited Atonement’ ™ gospel…i.e. —That God destines certain immortal souls to eternal hell prior to their conception because it apparently brings the god they serve divine glory. Good news indeed?

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  70. Lowlandseer,

    You posted a link to Pulpit and Pen by “News Division.” I read the whole entry, which was the zillionth takedown of Martin Luther King, Jr. The P&P entry calls MLK a bisexual communist adulterer. It insists on pointing out repeatedly that Thabiti changed his name.

    It is a hit piece.

    I do not trust “News Division” to quote anyone correctly, let alone analyze.

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  71. ION: Cooking

    AWWBA, my shortcrust pastry is among the best in Scotland. So, the plan was to have buffalo pie tomorrow; there being a farm shop nearby that sells buffalo shoulder steak. By “buffalo”, they almost certainly mean “bison”. The African buffalo is an extremely aggressive and dangerous animal, that probably can’t be domesticated. Certainly not in Fife anyway. In fact, six lions vs four buffalo is a tense standoff, from which the lions will probably retreat unless they’re very hungry.

    Be all of which as it may, we’re having ordinary steak pie tomorrow.

    IHTIH

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  72. ‘Together For The Gospel’ (T4G) , ‘The Gospel Coalition’ (TGC) , Acts29, Grace To You, 9Marks, SGC, and SBTS, really means ‘those’ who pride themselves on supporting the ‘Limited Atonement’ ™ gospel. i.e. —That God destines certain immortal souls to eternal hell prior to conception.

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  73. Calvinist believe John Calvin’s followers DORT version of Augustinian Gnosticism. Look it up. The Limited Atonement they sell is not the gospel Jesus brought. Stop, look, and take action.

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  74. Oracle at Delphi,

    This is also why tenure at secular institutions is so important, and why it is heavily threatened these days….. from many different direction ( which is a whole another post).
    So many conservatives lament the “secularness” of great institutions in the US that started out as manly focused on educating future preachers…..
    When ideology is most important, freedom of thought and speech goes out the window.
    Despite all the purging by Pope Al Muhler, it sounds like he has his hands full….

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  75. Jeffrey Chalmers: all the purging

    I really don’t understand the personalities, but it seems that the SBC is having the wrong conversation. They simply cannot admit that racism exists. Anyone who mentions racism gets shouted down as a Marxist who wants white people to disappear.

    As a lifelong non-disappearing white person, I am really tired of this. A Birch Society lady used to find her way into our home decades ago. Ask any question and she was like a wind-up doll: “Marxism! Socialism! Breakdown of the American family unit! Curse of Ham! Puff the Magic Dragon!”

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  76. Muff Potter: And yet Thabiti Anyabwile along with Voddie Baucham enjoy the same perks (privilege and power) as lily-white John MacArthur.

    How is this possible if the sacred cows of progressivism (‘white privilege’ and ‘institutional racism’) supposedly hold sway in 21st century America?

    Yeah, yeah Potter, what’s your point?

    Simply this: I’ve become just as disillusioned with progressivism as I have with fundagelicalism during my time in country (as HUG would say) with Calvary Chapel.

    Muff, it was nice knowing ya……

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  77. Friend,

    It’s all in how you make it.

    But the trick is to make it with lard, not butter, and milk, not water – and use as little milk as possible.

    Not sure what “lard” is known as in Americaland – maybe “suet”? But I’m fairly sure that “milk” and “water” mean the same thing left and right of the Pond…

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  78. Friend,

    Well, actually, the SBC is admitting they are racist – all of the time.

    Southern released a big historical summary of its racism this year, all compiled by professors at the seminary which cataloged the seminary’s history with slavery and Jim Crow.

    The SBC co-hosted MLK 50 in 2018, I think, that had lots of speakers talking about the racism of the SBC.

    In 2018, at T4G, David Platt gave his sermon on racism and whiteness and lamented how his world was “so white.”

    And this year at the SBC annual meeting in Birmingham, there were panels on racism emphasizing how racist everyone is, but they just don’t know it because they are white.

    If all this talk is just that – talk, the folks need not be so concerned.

    But there is a certain obnoxiousness to it all. Very Pharisaical, really.

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  79. I don’t know a lot about the other personalities, but I’m not surprised MacArthur is out. For him there pretty much aren’t *any* tertiary issues; almost everything is essential doctrine, and boy is there a lot of it. He’s basically the fundamentalist’s fundamentalist. Also, his organization is highly patriarchal, and any hint of social justice is likely seen as a potential threat to that.

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  80. Friend: Ask any question and she was like a wind-up doll: “Marxism! Socialism! Breakdown of the American family unit! Curse of Ham! Puff the Magic Dragon!”

    duckspeak = reciting the Party Line without engaging any neuron above the brainstem.

    In the words of the man who coined the term:
    “Ultimately it was hoped to make articulate speech issue from the larynx without involving the higher brain centres at all.”

    “…Winston turned a little sideways in his chair to drink his mug of coffee. At the table on his left the man with the strident voice was still talking remorselessly away….He held some important post in the FICTION DEPARTMENT….It was just a noise, a quack-quack-quacking….Every word of it was pure orthodoxy, pure INGSOC….Winston had a curious feeling that this was not a real human being but some kind of dummy. It was not the man’s brain that was speaking, it was his larynx. The stuff that was coming out of him consisted of words, but it was not speech in the true sense: it was noise uttered in unconsciousness, like the quacking of a duck.”
    — G.Orwell, 1984

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  81. Oracle at Delphi: Of course, we all know with the hindsight of the 20th Century that Marxism doesn’t work economically, and it doesn’t deliver on prosperity, human rights, environmentalism etc.

    A junior-college economics textbook of mine stated that Marx’s talent was Systems Analysis (Das Kapital), but he became an Apocalyptic Prophet (Communist Manifesto) and his followers and fanboys took the Apocalyptic Prophet (which he wasn’t all that good at) and firewalled it.

    But it sounds so good every generation produces a new crop of people who think the problem was with the people who didn’t do it right, and they are prepared to do it the right way.

    “THIS TIME WE WILL ACHIEVE TRUE COMMUNISM!”

    Adding in One-Upmanship(“More Marxist Than Thou”) where Mao had to outdo Lenin and Pol Pot had to outdo Mao and Kim-whatever had to outdo everybody… All the same patterns you see in these Churches and Parachurches and Fundagelicalism.

    No wonder Pope John Paul II approached Marxism as a Christian Heresy.

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  82. Oracle at Delphi: But it sounds so good every generation produces a new crop of people who think the problem was with the people who didn’t do it right, and they are prepared to do it the right way.

    “Nine out of ten New Ideas are really Old Mistakes. But to a generation who wasn’t alive the last time these Old Mistakes were made, they seem like Fresh New Ideas.:
    — G.K.Chesterton

    To which I would append “What Could Possibly Go Wrong?”
    (Eventually followed by “But How Were We To Know?”)

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  83. Nick Bulbeck,

    “my shortcrust pastry is among the best in Scotland. …

    we’re having ordinary steak pie tomorrow.

    IHTIH”
    +++++++++++++++++

    helps?!? now steak pie is all i can think of! with mushrooms? a room-temp pint?

    there is no chance — no chance — this is happening in our household tonight. i can’t even buy one. the closest would be a costco chicken pot pie, but they’re not in season at the moment.

    can’t seem to stop, here — do you cook with garlic and onions? a little lemon? how generous with salt and pepper? what’s for dessert?

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  84. Lowlandseer: The suggestion that Mahler isn’t inclusive. If he is Sola Scriptura he wouldn’t exclude “the other” surely.?

    Thanks for clarifying. It looks like I miscommunicated, so I will try again. In Mohler’s theology, god chooses to save some and let all the others suffer eternal punishment, and the reason he does not choose to save everyone is because it would diminish his glory if the saved could not see that eternal punishment. This is why I say his theology has haves and have-nots. While his theology does not describe any basis for who god chooses to save other than the good pleasure of his will, it certainly includes only some for salvation and excludes everyone else. The point I was trying to make is once one believes that god is like this, it makes it much easier to be non-inclusive in general. How one expresses that non-inclusiveness is not really the point.

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  85. Nick Bulbeck:
    Friend,

    It’s all in how you make it.

    But the trick is to make it with lard, not butter, and milk, not water – and use as little milk as possible.

    Not sure what “lard” is known as in Americaland – maybe “suet”? But I’m fairly sure that “milk” and “water” mean the same thing left and right of the Pond…

    It’s Lard! My grandma only used lard in pie crusts. Yum!

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  86. Bridget,

    lard… where does one buy lard? it’s not hiding by the butter is it?

    on another day, i might just make myself a steak and mushroom pie. probably with a bit more salt than nick would use. red wine in the sauce… some parsley parsley… bay leaf…

    an autumnal treat!

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  87. elastigirl: lard… where does one buy lard?

    Leaf lard is higher quality (more neutral flavor) than regular lard because it comes from a better part of the pig. Some supermarkets sell it. You can also buy it online. I would definitely refrigerate it after opening.

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  88. Bridget: My grandma only used lard in pie crusts.

    Well, while this thread has nothing to do with T4G except that maybe the leaders are full of lard … I will “weigh in” on this a bit. I’m so old I can remember that every kitchen in my neck of the woods had a 5-gallon metal can of lard sitting in a corner of the kitchen. It was heaven’s grease for cooking in those days. Yes, there is no better pie crust on earth than one prepared with real-deal lard.

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  89. Max: Yes, there is no better pie crust on earth than one prepared with real-deal lard.

    Praise the lard!

    (Maybe that’s what our Gospelly handlers are really saying, and it’s not their fault we’ve been hearing something else…) 😉

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  90. Friend: Praise the lard!

    Our daughter when just a toddler joined in a hymn at church one Sunday “Bringing in the cheese … bringing in the cheese … we shall come rejoicing, bringing in the cheese.” (she has been a lifelong cheese lover)

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  91. Muff Potter: And yet Thabiti Anyabwile along with Voddie Baucham enjoy the same perks (privilege and power) as lily-white John MacArthur.

    How is this possible if the sacred cows of progressivism (‘white privilege’ and ‘institutional racism’) supposedly hold sway in 21st century America?

    Yeah, yeah Potter, what’s your point?

    Simply this: I’ve become just as disillusioned with progressivism as I have with fundagelicalism during my time in country (as HUG would say) with Calvary Chapel.

    Yes. They are all micromanaging, thought policing, totalitarians. Both sides. I just want to be left alone and leave others alone. Not shamed and being told how I have to think to be accepted in anyone’s dystopian collective. Thank God— Church is voluntary. This same stuff is showing up all over the workplace, too. I hope we can seek more self governing, individual liberty and learn to tolerate real free-speech. Just don’t listen. This PC on both sides is killing us.

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  92. Max: Our daughter when just a toddler joined in a hymn at church one Sunday “Bringing in the cheese … bringing in the cheese … we shall come rejoicing, bringing in the cheese.”(she has been a lifelong cheese lover)
    .

    Small-press Furry cartoonist Kinky Turtle has a similar story as to how he got his pen name.

    As a kid in church, he remembers hearing the hymn “O King Eternal” as “O Kinky Turtle” and thought it would make a great name for a cartoon character. So when he got into cartooning, he named his self-insert character Kinky Turtle and used it as his pen name. (Don’t know where he came up with his character tag line of “Yig-Ped!”…)

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  93. Lydia: Thank God— Church is voluntary.

    Huh?! When did that happen?!!

    Just kidding – church has always been voluntary for me (it’s Scriptural!).

    Hope you and yours are doing well Sister Lydia. I had a health set-back earlier this year, but back fighting devils again.

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  94. This might apply to some involved: “5And they do all their deeds in order to be seen by men. For they broaden their phylacteries and enlarge their tassels, 6and they love the chief place at the banquets, and the first seats in the synagogues, 7and the greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by men” (Matthew 23:5-7).

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  95. *Submitted as a public service announcement.

    WARNING! : ‘Together For The Gospel’ (T4G) , ‘The Gospel Coalition’ (TGC) , Acts29, Grace To You, 9Marks, SGC, and SBTS, really means ‘those’ who pride themselves on supporting the ‘Limited Atonement’ ™ gospel. (look it up!) A false gospel that says that God destines certain individuals to eternal hell prior to their conception. This is what they believe. (they often hide this unwholesome fact) This is what they preach. This makes what they say and do very scary. They NOW consume whole 501c3 churches with this nefarious cult-like stuff. Do your homework! Read your Bible. Beware!

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  96. Max: But instead of loving to be called “Rabbi”, they prefer “lead pastor”.

    Don’t forget “Head Apostle” and “Prophet”.

    “If you encounter a pastor who’s titled himself ‘Apostle’ or ‘Prophet’, RUN!”

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  97. Sòpwith: ‘Together For The Gospel’ (T4G) , ‘The Gospel Coalition’ (TGC) , Acts29, Grace To You, 9Marks, SGC, and SBTS, really means ‘those’ who pride themselves on supporting the ‘Limited Atonement’ ™ gospel. (look it up!) A false gospel that says that God destines certain individuals to eternal hell prior to their conception. This is what they believe. (they often hide this unwholesome fact)

    This is sadly true. These movements rarely come right out and admit their assertion that God deliberately destined the vast majority of humans for so-called eternal punishment. They’ll hide it behind euphemism and excess verbiage. But it is about determinism, predestination and limited atonement, however much they try to hide it. It took my Calvie pastor over a decade to even begin to show his true colors. The young people who grew up in that church cannot understand what changed so drastically over the years. We all remember the good days – the love bombing stage. Nearly all who can leave, with only a handful (who have nowhere to go) remaining while new blood cycles in and out.

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  98. TS00: it is about determinism, predestination and limited atonement, however much they try to hide it. It took my Calvie pastor over a decade to even begin to show his true colors. The young people who grew up in that church cannot understand what changed so drastically over the years

    SBC’s Founders Ministries called that approach a “Quiet Revolution.” Take your time to reform (Calvinize) a church, don’t get in a hurry, be subtle (deceptive) in your approach, slowly indoctrinate the youth and you can change the NextGen belief and practice.

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  99. Max,

    To be fair, it was a professed Calvinist Church, but it was a new start, and none of the members were at all familiar with Calvinism. I felt that the pastor was less than open and honest about what Calvinism teaches, and never brought up ‘the scary stuff’ (as per Sproul Sr.), refusing to ever do a class on ‘What is Calvinism?’ as so frequently requested. Otherwise, the approach appears the same as the stealth takeovers, just slowly, subtly indoctrinate the members gradually into a change of beliefs that they don’t even see happening.

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  100. Sòpwith,
    Simpler analogy:
    Treat “Gospel” in the official name of a church or para-church org with the same skepticism as you would “People’s Democratic” in the official name of a Third World country.

    “The more adjectives about Democracy in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.”

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  101. TS00: I felt that the pastor was less than open and honest about what Calvinism teaches …

    I’m sure he didn’t want to scare the bejesus out of them with the jots and tittles of Calvinist belief and practice. After all, 90+% of Christendom have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for the last 500 years. It’s best to go slooooooooowly and to position a new reformed plant (of the New Calvinist sort) to attract impressionable young folks, rather than older saints.

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  102. Max: It’s best to go slooooooooowly and to position a new reformed plant (of the New Calvinist sort) to attract impressionable young folks, rather than older saints.

    “Give me your children for five years and I will make them mine.
    You will pass away, but they will remain Mine.”
    — Adolf Hitler, cult leader

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  103. TS00: This is sadly true. These movements rarely come right out and admit their assertion that God deliberately destined the vast majority of humans for so-called eternal punishment. They’ll hide it behind euphemism and excess verbiage. But it is about determinism, predestination and limited atonement, however much they try to hide it. It took my Calvie pastor over a decade to even begin to show his true colors. The young people who grew up in that church cannot understand what changed so drastically over the years. We all remember the good days – the love bombing stage. Nearly all who can leave, with only a handful (who have nowhere to go) remaining while new blood cycles in and out.

    they have those who God “loves” according to them, and those who God couldn’t care less about. I’m in that second group now, according to them. Notice I don’t say I BELIEVE I’m in the second group, I just know how they think. Anyone who doesn’t go along with the prophet Nehemiah, I mean the Pastor, or doesn’t just take every word for it would be in the second group, along with those who don’t believe in calvinist doctrine. That’s why, when a megachurch on sunday was told they had to sell their entire property except for a tiny portion, including the auditorium where the vast majority of all the outreach to community members is done, VBS, Passion Play, Christmas Programs, all Programs, Trunk or Treats, etc,the OUTREACH stuff, well when they were told it had to be sold they “cheered”. I was there, I heard it. No more outreach, but why would calvinists do outreach anyways…I can see it all now…CONTRACTS, weeding out the unfavorable because the church will now only have 1/9 the room they had, telling choir members they have to sing here or here, or maybe that there just isn’t room for them anymore. Telling people in the congregation there isn’t room for them anymore either. Why would a calvinist care? They think God decided to make people he didn’t care enough to save, and they could care less. It’s really cool. I just can’t believe the concept. Because it isn’t biblical, but who cares about that? Right? And of course on the way out the door I got to hear from an usher that Dr. B. caused the whole thing, along with a lot of other slanderous statements. I only went to support a family member, and I wish I could erase the memory right now.

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  104. TS00,

    ct,

    I wonder whether the surreptitious doctrinal “creep” may not in the end incubate a generation of universalists — certainly not what they are hoping for. Strong views of God’s sovereignty are at the core of the movement, but it is hard to simultaneously hold in one’s heart a) “strong sovereignty”, b) the idea that God’s goodness is knowable in any meaningful way, and c) the idea of ultimate dereliction of image bearers (see, for example, David B Hart’s “The moral implications of creatio ex nihilo”). The least objectionable “leg” of this trilemma to surrender may be the idea of ultimate dereliction.

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  105. Samuel Conner: I wonder whether the surreptitious doctrinal “creep” may not in the end incubate a generation of universalists — certainly not what they are hoping for.

    The New Calvinist doctrinal “creep”, with its host of doctrinal creeps, will most likely lead to despair and disillusionment about all things church among its multitude of followers … when the bubble finally breaks (and it will).

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