The Floundering Founders: Even Compadres Are Not Amused

 


Graphics by Ryan Ashton

“Though our feelings come and go, God’s love for us does not.” – C. S. Lewis

Who are the Founders?

I am going to tell you who I think they are. However, I will provide links so you can decide who you think they are. The Founders are a group of rabid Calvinists who have long hidden in the shadowlands of the SBC They have presented themselves as just good ole Calvinists who are simply Baptists in practice.They believe that all good Christians thought history have been Calvinists. Did you know that even Augustine was a kind of Calvinist?


The Founders describe themselves thusly.

Founders Ministries is committed to encouraging the recovery of the gospel and the biblical reformation of local churches. We believe that the biblical faith is inherently doctrinal, and we are therefore confessional in our convictions. We recognize the time-tested Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) as a faithful summary of important biblical teachings and the abstract of that confession known as the Abstract of Principles.

Let me summarize what they think about those Christians who do not believe as the Founders believe.

  • The Gospel needs to be recovered which means that they think it has been lost.
  • Local churches must be biblically™ reformed since they have evidently have lost their way.

They believe that they need to teach churches to see the full™ authority of God’s word and, up until this past week, it appears that the Calvinist Baptist boys arranged play dates.

In 1982, a group of men committed to the doctrines of grace met in Euless, Texas to think about, pray for and plan efforts to encourage church leaders not only to see the full authority of God’s Word but also to affirm its sufficiency in all matters of faith and practice. After spending the morning in prayer, plans for a conference were developed and the first Founders Conference was held in Memphis, Tennessee the next year. The conference met annually there for the first 8 years, moved to Birmingham, Alabama from 1991 to 2004, and was hosted by churches from in following years. Past speakers have included John MacArthur, J. I. Packer, Iain Murray, Al Mohler and John Piper. Themes have included missions, evangelism, revival, preaching, pastoral ministry, sanctification, the doctrines of grace, law and gospel and the church.

The leadership team consists of Tom Ascol, Jared Longshore, Fred Malone, Tom Hick, John Lee and Tom Nettles.

The featured authors on the website is rather extensive and includes: Al Mohler, Charles Spurgeon (RIP), Collin Hansen, Ed *VW Bug* Stetzer, J I Packer, Jason Allen, John Bunyan (RIP), Kevin Young, Mark Dever, Voddie Baucham and a host of others.

What do they mean by church reform?

The Founders and Southern Baptist Theological Seminary have long touted Andy Davis, FBC Durham, as the best case of church reform that they know.

By church reform they mean to remake the church in their image of Calvinism, no matter what it takes. This story is personal for me because I have two friends who were called *wicked* and *unregenerate* by Davis. He did not level with the church before he was hired and afterwards he *made it into his own image* of a Calvinist church. Andy Davis and First Baptist Durham: I Wonder If Wormwood Grinned?

Tis story is touted on Southern Seminary’s website as an example of exemplary church reform which to me mean *do whatever it takes to slip in the door and then lower the boom.* PS: It had nothing to do with expositional preaching and everything to do with *going to war.*

The Founder’s played games at SBC 2019

TWW has already discussed what happened at SBC 2019 when Tom Ascol and his boys approached members of the *For Such a Time as This Rally* in Observations of SBC#19 and a Condemnation of The Founders Who Disrespected Victims of Sex Abuse at the Rally

The Founders began filming and asked bizarre questions of several of the participants such as how they viewed women preachers and LGBT issues. Since these folks were there to discuss sex abuse in the SBC, these questions seemed out of place. I viewed them from a distance, recognizing Tom Ascol. I am seriously upset that they didn’t come to speak to me…

Rod D Martin, newest member of the SBC Executive Com, appears to make an appearance in the trailer from The Founders.

This was followed up by another Founders’ bot who attacked us on Twitter SBC Executive Committee Member Rod D. Martin Goes on the Attack on Twitter, Defending the Founders, Causing Concern Amongst Abuse Survivors.claiming we were only upset because we said some thing and they caught us saying them.

Here is an image from his Twitter account. Look at it closely. I believe you will see him again in the following Founders Trailer (3:00 minute mark)

Which leads me to questions.

  • What in the world is the newest appointee to the SBC EC, which is supposed to be dealing with sex abuse by churches in the SBC, doing in the Founders trailer?
  • Why did he choose to attack us on Twitter in what I perceived to be an unkind and aggressive manner?
  • Why were the Founders allowed into the convention hall to record while the Rally had no room inside the convention?
  • Why is this guy the newest appointee to the SBC EC? Looks like sex abuse will be taking a back seat to gender rules if this guy is any indication of the future of thoughtful concern within the SBC.

The Founders trailer gleefully kicked over a hornets nest.

There is no way to embed this video so here is the link to view the trailer. Before you begin, remember. They ticked off Papa Bear Mohler and friends and many, many others.

By What Standard?

 

The response on Twitter

Statement by Danny Akin.

Rachel Denhollander

Al Mohler

Doug Wilson who, of course, endorsed the film

Remember: Doug really likes this…..

Bloggers, websites weigh in on the controversy.

 

SBC Voices: The supreme irony of the year: Tom Ascol calls on the SBC for “deep seated repentance”

We’ve had the Rabid Cals for years, Ascol was a pretty decent spokesman for that segment of SBC life. Now, hopefully, the Rabid Cals have self-immolated.

Baptist Press: 4 seminary leaders voice concern over film’s preview

The documentary, according to the Founders Ministries website, addresses “many unbiblical agendas … being advanced under the guise of honoring and protecting women, promoting racial reconciliation, and showing love and compassion to people experiencing sexual dysphoria.”

Twenty-five years after the Conservative Resurgence returned the SBC to “its historic commitments on the inerrancy and infallibility of Scripture,” the website states that “it seems like evangelicals, including Southern Baptists, are in danger of loosening their commitments to those basic, Christian commitments.”

“If we care about true justice — what God has revealed to be just — then we must stand against what is being promoted under social justice,” the website states. “If we care about the true gospel — the gospel revealed in the faith once-for-all-delivered to the saints — we must reject the agendas being promoted by godless ideologies.”

Religion News Services: Video links Beth Moore, Russell Moore, James Merritt to ‘Trojan horse of social justice’

A number of the clips highlighted in the video come from sessions and events that took place during the Southern Baptists’ annual meeting in June. They include part of a discussion on race in the church, featuring James Merritt, a Georgia megachurch pastor and former SBC president; a discussion about abuse; and a discussion of whether women can preach.

At several points, as leaders such as Merritt and megachurch pastor Matt Chandler are speaking, the video seems to glitch out, whereupon Ascol appears to give his warnings that their comments represent the infiltration of the church by social justice elements.

One such freeze occurs as Merritt, along with current SBC President J.D. Greear, urges Southern Baptists to listen to black evangelicals and Christians from other ethnic groups. Ascol responds: “This understanding is what causes so many who are moving in these circles, advocating these ideologies, to tell people in the hegemony that what they must do is sit down and be quiet and listen.”

Friendly Atheist: Christian Ministry Posts Video Trashing Preachers Who Promote Social Justice

Leave it to religious conservatives to see discussions about racism, abuse, and feminism taking place within their movement and act like the sky is falling.

The conversations angered Calvinists — the ones who believe in total depravity — so much that they issued a statement on how the “liberal” concept of social justice is apparently a threat to their beliefs.

Baptist Standard: Video links SBC leaders to ‘Trojan horse of social justice’

Texas Baptist pastor Dwight McKissic, who has argued that women should be allowed to preach, is also featured in the video as is an image of Lutheran pastor and author Nadia Bolz-Weber.

He took to Twitter to criticize the video as well.

“Totally blindsided by this,” he tweeted. “Really disapprove of the message being sent here. Very divisive, unnecessary & unfortunate. I plan to ignore it from this point though. Kingdom work must take precedence over this bizarre attempt to sow discord among the brethren.”

The Founders ask if sex abuse or the Bible’s teaching about manhood is the more important issue.

They just can’t help themselves…Which is the most pressing issue in the SBC today? Sexual abuse or the Bible’s teaching about manhood?

First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse

…Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.

….I am very thankful for the emphasis on sexual abuse at SBC 2019. In those matters where the prevailing cultural ethic agrees with the biblical ethic, Christians must never fail to proclaim and live in accordance with the teaching of the Bible, or else the world will rightly see us as hypocrites. But the harder thing to do is to speak to those biblical and ethical truths that the culture abhors, such as the Bible’s teaching on manhood and womanhood. The church can and must do both.

Final thoughts:

It looks like The Founders got one of their own appointed to the SBC Executive Committee. If this is the direction of the SBC, I would say that sex abuse will take a back seat to railing against social justice issues. They will also push of strict gender roles with women taking a back seat. Just look at how many women are featured on The Founders website.

The Founders are doing what I predicted would happen years ago when I first started blogging. They will start to devour their own after they took are of what they would perceive to be liberals. Wormwood continues to grin and the feasting begins.


Comments

The Floundering Founders: Even Compadres Are Not Amused — 464 Comments

  1. Its been said before but it’s worth repeating – where is Jesus in any of their discussions? All I hear is “the gospel”, “biblical manhood” or “scriptural authority”. Jesus is strangely missing.

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  2. Fisher:
    Its been said before but it’s worth repeating – where is Jesus in any of their discussions? All I hear is “the gospel”, “biblical manhood”or “scriptural authority”.Jesus is strangely missing.

    As the article about “biblical manhood” has been cited again, thoughts from the time are worth repeating:

    The strawmen floated in the Founders article appear to work toward the end of creating the brave neo “us” and the unbiblical “them:

    https://founders.org/2019/06/19/which-is-the-most-pressing-issue-in-the-sbc-today-sexual-abuse-or-the-bibles-teaching-about-manhood/?fbclid=IwAR0BEXoR3aKdxNqFeQ7q0YZO84GmpgyJmhJW6OtIgkJUGqkzdc1dmzGmezE

    “First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse.”

    So, guess we can’t focus on abuse itself — the towering inferno that the powers that be too often treat with less vigor than a T4G breakout session workshop. Let’s somehow via some convoluted logic act like ‘biblical manhood’ is just as pressing an issue and one that can be attached like a leech to take attention and focus from the abuse issue!

    Are you kidding me with this tangential flail? What does a grievous wolf from Acts 20 or the thief from John 10 care about Biblical anything except to either disobey it or manipulate it deceptively to their own ends? And where does a discussion of that issue become remotely relevant when the problem of the rampant abuse is compounded by the blind eyes, proof-texting hackery, and the passing of the buck endemic in so many abuse situations coming to light?
    “Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.”
    And many in the secular media and those opposed to Christianity have also leveraged what’s been coming out to bolster assertions or promote an agenda. Newsflash: people push their own agendas. However, if we were in a sane courtroom, an objection due to irrelevance would be sustained.

    Guess what, “Founders”? If professed Christians and their institutions are inextricably linked to the abuses by the manifest fails listed above, that’s going to serve the agenda of those opposed to Christianity because of the evil and the hypocrisy. As long as we’re getting Biblical, how about this verse: “As it has been written: “For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you”” (Romans 2:24).

    How about allowing appropriate focus on the issue that is laying waste to innocent lives of victims and those close to them? If that’s not enough, shouldn’t the motive of cleaning up the impurities of a denomination your own writings indicate you’re seeking to seal the deal on acquiring — assets and all — be enough? Think of the brand!

    Biblically manning up by definition involves looking out for the little ones and the oppressed. I know it’s not as straightforward as talking amongst yourselves about doling out top-down authority or as neat as conducting gotchas on those at abuse rallies kicked to the SBC curb — apparently ‘cuz narrative, but it sure is Biblical.

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  3. Fisher:
    Its been said before but it’s worth repeating – where is Jesus in any of their discussions? All I hear is “the gospel”, “biblical manhood”or “scriptural authority”.Jesus is strangely missing.

    Jesus is missing, the Holy Spirit isn’t even acknowledged, and the Father is only spoken about to support their idea that men are “special.”

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  4. JD Hall is calling up the troops to buttress Ascol’s floundering Anti Social Justice campaign, identifies six key camps in the effort:

    https://pulpitandpen.org/2019/07/26/who-are-the15-contras-join-up-now/

    “Evangelical Intelligentsia leaders…have all been ruthlessly attacking the Social Justice Contras…it’s time that #the15 rise up to help them…There are different camps…

    There’s the Evangelical Dark Web…Pulpit & Pen
    There’s the MacArthur Camp
    There’s the Founders’ Camp…Tom Ascol
    There’s the Sovereign Nations Camp…Michael O’Fallon
    There’s the Tag-Alongs…James White
    And finally, there’s the Traditionalist Camp [non Calvinists]”

    “You might belong to a different ‘camp’ within the contra movement, but [we need to] present a united front to the powerful leftist forces that have taken over our churches.”

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  5. Questions, I have so many questions…I’m going to put them in separate posts.

    I still can’t get over that Founders hired a guy from Arizona (Marcus Pittman) to go out to Birmingham to film at the SBC. Pittman is not a Southern Baptist. Rather, he’s a member of an independent Baptist church that holds to the London Baptist Faith and Confession of 1689 (LBFC 1689). I don’t understand why Founders would hire someone not a Southern Baptist and from so far away. One would think there would be at least someone who was a professional and closer to Birmingham.

    I confirmed Pittman’s presence at the SBC on behalf of Founders when I was picketing* his church a few weeks back. That’s because I asked him as he was walking down the sidewalk! His church is renting space at another church in my neighborhood and holds its services on Sunday afternoons. One James R. White, a long-time apologist, has been recently installed as a pastor-elder at this church. Interestingly, White, who is ALSO not a Southern Baptist, spent over an hour today on his web show, “The Dividing Line” talking about the “By What Standard?” “trailer.”

    So the first question question I have is, why is Founders hiring a guy from Arizona to film, a guy who goes to a church very much NOT affiliated with the SBC, and very Calvinistic, to film? Aren’t there filmmakers who are closer? And the next question is, why is James White so invested in this trailer, considering that he’s not a Southern Baptist either?

    ———-

    *I picket there because their “lead pastor/elder,” a guy named Jeff Durbin, is on record as wanting to execute women who have abortions. I have decided (for myself) this is black and white thinking as per Steve Hassan’s “BITE model,” and thus cultic thinking. I have had children repeat this statement to me numerous times, and I have it on video. I stand on their sidewalk to let the attendees and the many, many visitors know they are attending the meetings of what I consider to be a dangerous cult.

    Ironically, Apologia church has a “ministry” called “Cultish” that does podcasts about groups they consider cultic. However, their guide for determining if an organization is a cult is how closely the organization’s teachings mesh with its own. This isn’t such a good standard, IMHO, because it passes over a group’s behaviors. A group could be completely orthodox in belief but engage in some high-control behaviors not out of place in an organization like the *cough* “gold standard of cults.”

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  6. We recognize the time-tested Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) as a faithful summary of important biblical teachings

    Some of us are even more old school and have no problem recognizing the Apostle’s and Niceness Creeds as a faithful summary..,

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  7. My second batch of questions actually surrounds the trailer itself. Who actually edited this thing? If we knew that, then perhaps we could understand some of the editorial choices that caused such an uproar.

    First of all, a number of the men mentioned in the trailer complained about the light they were cast in by the editing. For example, Matt Chandler was talking about child sexual abuse in his clip, but the editing didn’t make that clear. The number of men who complained about how they were portrayed is beyond my scope, but you can go look on Twitter. Men like Al Mohler and Daniel Akin were not happy at how they were made to look.

    Second, there was the whole use of what I call Shadowy Rachael Denhollander. The editor was too chicken to actually show Ms. Denhollander’s face, but the figure of the woman (with a voiceover of a man speaking of “principalities and powers”) was obviously taken from Ms. Denhollander’s SBC speech. We know the criticisms of Ms. Denhollander’s inclusion hit home, because the most recent version of this clip now omits the shadowy shots of her (alleged “B roll”–you guys knew exactly what you were doing).

    Third, there was the whole use of color in the clip. You could tell the “good guys” because they were always displayed in full color. The people they were criticizing, however, ended up in washed-out colors and graytones, sometimes distorted by various effects. I donate to a educational non-profit which provides documentary filmmaking opportunities for students. One of the expenses in putting together a documentary is “color correction.” It’s a big deal to get the color right and that did not happen in this “trailer.” The color was very definitely there to make a point–and yeah, we got it, Founders, we got it. There are a lot of people you don’t like. (Also, if you paid for “color correction,” you got ripped off. Don’t pay that bill.)

    Fourth, there were the inserted stills of what I like to call Scary Nadia Bolz-Weber, Scary Protesters, Scary SJWs, Scary BLMs and Scary Bernie Sanders. By the inclusion of these people, we know who the enemies of Founders are being compared to–women preachers, protesters and politicians of a certain type. I was particularly taken by the way Rev. Bolz-Weber was portrayed. This is just my view, but it looked to me like the stills of her were colored to make her look as if she was a transgender woman. I’m wondering if the editor(s) of the trailer were trying to make Rev. Bolz-Weber out to be playing at being a minister of the Gospel. Without knowing who the editor is, we can’t know truly what they were thinking.

    Fifth, of the women displayed in the clip, whether Ms. Denhollander, Rev. Bolz-Weber, Beth Moore, or the women protesters, none of them spoke. None of them. By contrast, on the web page promoting this “cinedoc,” there are pictures of 18 men (16 white, 2 black) who are supposedly going to appear in the finished item. I presume all of the men will be allowed to speak for themselves (even if deceptively edited, as I fully expect). I wonder why that is? Are Founders that afraid of women that we cannot be allowed a voice at all?

    Sixth, with the initial inclusion of Ms. Denhollander in the “trailer,” it has to be asked, what does Founders Ministries have against combating child sexual abuse in the churches? Is it because women are speaking and leading the way on this? Is it because the men who run Founders think that only church leadership should handle this, and the changes being asked for by Ms. Denhollander and others challenges the superiority of pastors over their congregations? Or is it just plain old patriarchy rearing its ugly head? I don’t know, but I surely do wonder.

    I’m pretty sure others can think of additional questions regarding this very strange “trailer.”

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  8. This jumped out at me from the original post. I have seen this language/ attitude in *every* pseudo-christian cult I’ve encountered over a lifetime. Without exception.

    It’s been so consistent that hearing someone espouse these points is an automatic red flag and “Do Not Enter” sign to my way of thinking.

    In other words, the Founders are quite possibly a type of Antichrist.

    “Let me summarize what they think about those Christians who do not believe as the Founders believe.
    – The Gospel needs to be recovered which means that they think it has been lost.
    – Local churches must be biblically™ reformed since they have evidently have lost their way.”

    In short, perhaps the Holy Spirit is sounding a clear warning: Following their teachings/ joining with them is to choose death. (Thinking of the Israelites as they we’re offered the choice between life and death.)

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  9. “The Gospel needs to be recovered…and we’re the ones to do it.” The words of every destructive cult as led by sociopaths ever.

    Rod D. Martin IMO came across like one disturbed dude on Twitter. The SBC, which was the first denom I ever joined and was where I was baptized, seems lost. If indeed the Holy Spirit has left the leadership of the SBC, what usually fills the vacuum is ugly and demonic. Only God knows if it can be salvaged, but at this point people would do well to jettison anything that stands between them and Jesus, That ma6 be your leaders.

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  10. After reading about all the confusion and backbiting among these folks, I can’t understand why any clear thinking person would want to be part of this mess. But that’s just me. Not My Circus. Not My Monkeys.

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  11. refugee: – The Gospel needs to be recovered which means that they think it has been lost.
    – Local churches must be biblically™ reformed since they have evidently have lost their way.”

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t these Founders calvinsts? Don’t they believe that God is so invasivly Sovereign that he controls every single little thing on the planet? How then can they turn around and say that this same God has allowed something as important as the good news about Jesus to be lost? And this sovereign God needs THEM to defend “the gospel” and bring it back? What universe do they live in? There’s no logic in that.

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  12. Fisher: Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t these Founders calvinsts? Don’t they believe that God is so invasivly Sovereign that he controls every single little thing on the planet? How then can they turn around and say that this same God has allowed something as important as the good news about Jesus to be lost? And this sovereign God needs THEM to defend “the gospel” and bring it back? What universe do they live in? There’s no logic in that.

    Ah, but there is logic in it, in the Calvinist mine that is. They believe that God uses *means* to accomplish His will. And they are the means that God will use to restore the gospel.

    If you would ask me, I think they have caught the contagion of self righteousness and sanctimonious piety.

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  13. Hmm…well, I’d be on their naughty list right out of the gate with this opinion:

    Who said Augustin was right? Just because he won the fight doesn’t mean he was the one correct in his theology….

    Seriously. This is the behavior of a cult. Apparently, dishonesty is perfectly ‘biblical’ if it’s in the service of the ‘biblical’ agenda. How much further from Christ can you get?

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  14. What struck me most about the trailer is the level of fear in all the full-color speakers. I have read quite a few Founders articles but I never associated those articles with such a level of fear. This trailer changed my view of Founders. These guys are terrified and they are trying to make everyone else as terrified as they are. They might have overplayed their hand with this documentary by exposing how fearful they are. Wasn’t there someone who once said something about perfect live casting out fear?

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  15. Honestly, every incident like this just makes me wonder how many supposed ‘christian’ leaders are really just…terrible people.

    You have to be a terrible person to think going after an abuse survivor who is known for advocacy related to that is a great idea. Because what, she is a woman? These men have twisted views on the world, on christianity, on everything it seems. No one should trust them. This was no mistake.

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  16. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: what does Founders Ministries have against combating child sexual abuse in the churches?

    The Founders write, “Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.”

    If their thinking is consistent, then claims of child sexual abuse are also a pinko pretext for destroying the church from within. Pay attention to abuse, and shazzam! You’re commie atheists and you don’t know it.

    The empowerment of men is the Founders’ universal wrench. Men don’t have nearly enough influence in the SBC.

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  17. The only effect of this documentary will be to further divide and polarize God’s people, which is not a goal that we should have as Christians.

    I’m a college prof, and I attend a fair number of meetings in my school’s College of Education. I do have some problems and concerns with “social justice” activism as it is practiced on college campuses. I won’t go in to a long list, but I’ll just say that Boghossian, Lindsey, and Pluckrose’s hoax sums up some of the issues pretty well. However, when most normal people, especially those in “liberal” denominations use the term “social justice,” they aren’t using it in the campus activist context. Most just mean helping poor people and ending discrimination against women and racial minorities. I had this conversation once with my sisters-in-law. She was shocked that anyone could be against social justice. When I explained what the term means in my context, she said that’s not what I mean when I use the term at all.

    Here is how this film will drive polarization. Conservative folks will watch it and think that anyone who uses the term “social justice” means all the things highlighted in the film. They will react negatively to anyone who uses the term. Liberal folks will hear this and believe more and more that conservative people don’t care about the plight of the poor. The two sides will just keep talking past each other as they drift further apart.

    I believe a big problem we have in Christianity is that our denominations are too polarized and therefore ideologically pure. This allows them to become wacky and oppressive. The fact is, conservatives and liberals need each other. This film will do nothing but make the problem worse.

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  18. “…Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.”

    I just want to say I read this weeks ago, but I’m still mad about it. It’s disgusting. If you see the abuse of women and children as merely a ‘tool’ to leverage against yourselves and your own power, no flipping wonder they don’t care! Disgusting.

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  19. Ricco: This film will do nothing but make the problem worse.

    I’m an outsider to SBC polity and politics, but isn’t it fair to say that for decades now, the SBC has been at war with itself?

    So this new polarization agenda isn’t surprising is it?

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  20. I really wonder how many of the SBC leaders are just upset the way Founders went about this, but actually agree with much of the Founder’s concerns particularly liberalism amd women.

    I just do not trust the SBC leaders to do the right thing.

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  21. Samuel Conner,

    No, it’s not new, sadly. It also mirrors the political world. I do feel that the process is accelerating.

    My question for the Founders is, what is your endgame? Denounce everyone as a heretic except your board? Then what? If you stop finding people to denounce, you loose your reason to exist.

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  22. Mohler, Akin, Allen and Greenway (the four seminary leaders) would have no problem with what their bud Ascol and his Founders’ minions are doing if they hadn’t picked on Russell Moore. This is a clash between SBC’s “Old” and “New” Calvinists as they vye for the SBC throne.

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  23. mot: I really wonder how many of the SBC leaders are just upset the way Founders went about this, but actually agree with much of the Founder’s concerns particularly liberalism amd women.

    I think they took it to far and got caught out and called out and that’s why they’ve backed off. They 100% agree with them though on things like keeping women in their ‘place’ and so on and so forth.

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  24. mot: I really wonder how many of the SBC leaders are just upset the way Founders went about this, but actually agree with much of the Founder’s concerns particularly liberalism and women.

    Yes, I would say, in their heart of hearts, they are on the same page about those nasty liberals and wimmenfolk. The Founders, SBC’s “Old” Calvinists, have been trying for decades to take the SBC back to its pre-Civil War theological roots through what they call a “Quiet Revolution.” The may not agree with the more aggressive methods of the “New” Calvinists, but they have put up with them as long as their common mission is accomplished … Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America. Their leaders mingled with and encouraged each other in this endeavor, while they continued to do their own thing with their respective followers. But when Ascol started picking on Russell Moore and his social justice agenda, their marriage became strained. Moore’s reversal on women in leadership really raised their hackles.

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  25. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    I used to work with a guy who was a video editor – he also shot film to edit later.

    Whenever my job got really slow there, he’d invite me back to watch him work in his video editing studio.

    Also, a couple of years ago, I read a book or two on how to edit film in Adobe Premiere and their other software.

    What I can tell you from what I watched and read…

    Is that a human being has to sit and look at all the footage and manipulate it in some fashion.

    That means every shot that is in this Founders video, and any special effects applied, or any on-screen text added, had to be viewed by a set of human eye balls.

    Deliberate choices were made.

    Videos do not edit themselves.

    (Unless some companies are now using A.I. for that, but if they’re not, a person has to sit and watch all the film footage, and then, in the video editing software, click menu buttons and commands to edit the movie, change colors, add text to the screen, etc).

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  26. Lea: I think they took it to far and got caught out and called out and that’s why they’ve backed off. They 100% agree with them though on things like keeping women in their ‘place’ and so on and so forth.

    That why I have a major problem with SBC Voices-from which I am banned because I have questioned the SBC’s stance on women for years. IMO they took it to far as you said and they have no problem keeping the women in place-subordinating women-the pastor is the ruler-etc. They are trying to spin this in their favor.

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  27. From the main article up top:

    “The Founders are doing what I predicted would happen years ago when I first started blogging. They will start to devour their own after they took are of what they would perceive to be liberals. Wormwood continues to grin and the feasting begins.”

    I rode a tank
    Held a general’s rank
    When the blitzkrieg raged
    And the bodies stank

    Pleased to meet you
    Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
    Ah, what’s puzzling you
    Is the nature of my game, oh yeah

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  28. Most all of this ( the major recent escalation anyway) of the SJ debate can be traced toJohn MacArthur and the Shepherds conference this year when Phil Johnson had,among others Al Mohler on a panel discussion, Mohler had been saying we need to have a serious discussion about the rise of the SJ movement the church, and Phil said well this is the perfect time to start a serious discussion

    And Mohler became livid, and as they say the rest is history.

    The side against SJ and CRT have tried to have a serious discussion and to get the SBC leaders to go on the record more than just a sound bite,

    As I said in June from Birmingham at the SBC convention, this is the evolution of the us vs. them fight.

    It is no longer cal vs. non cal., it is now back to a conservative vs. progressive battle.
    Get to Orlando early if you want a good seat……

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  29. Max: The may not agree with the more aggressive methods of the “New” Calvinists, but they have put up with them as long as their common mission is accomplished … Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist denomination in America.

    Calvinism is a scary label to us, and socialism is a scary label to the Founders. Do the Founders really want Calvinism, or do they just want total control with a righteous-sounding name and some old books they can point to?

    The Founders accused demonstrators of seeking socialism under the guise of protecting women and children. Is their assertion a tell, revealing their own tactic?

    When we discuss Calvinism, are we diverted from focusing on abuse? I think we can talk about two things at once (plus cricket!), but wanted to put the question out there.

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  30. Ricco: However, when most normal people, especially those in “liberal” denominations use the term “social justice,” they aren’t using it in the campus activist context. Most just mean helping poor people and ending discrimination against women and racial minorities. I had this conversation once with my sisters-in-law. She was shocked that anyone could be against social justice. When I explained what the term means in my context, she said that’s not what I mean when I use the term at all.

    And therein lies the rub, as the autocrats across the board seem to be fashioning the concept into tools and bludgeons for the sake of personal and groups agendas. You have the activist part cited, which in my recent experience seeped into extricating tens of thousands in what the congregation thought was Gospel-centered missions — in large part because the extricating pastor (sic) indicated it was specifically for sharing the Gospel — but in fact was funneled to an NGO-ish construct banning Gospel sharing in its partnership agreements.

    And then you have the TGC, brave neo SBC, and birds of feather using “social justice” as part of so many conference and book selling plans, evidently as part of their bag of tricks to extricate $$$. In their construct — pushed hard since 2018 and growing, concern from the dudebros and others seems leveraged to open doors to the younger generations (also used to flip existing brick and mortar enterprises and assets into the collective) as well as to congregations with histories of consistent giving.

    The parachurchers and denominations can then deploy their seminary-indoctrinated operatives and $tudy plans rife with signaled social relevance and hearts that cry for justice, all while coincidentally offering avenues for gross income $$$ to flow to them in order to be conduits of said justice and things of the Kingdom. Conferences, political enmeshments, and all sorts of avenues calling for justice emerge as a cottage industry — all with speaker’s fees and book hawking stops.

    It’s yet another thing that can become a volleyball and a strawman, of which the “documentary” (it is to laugh) is evidence. As per usual, the objects of the game players revolve around power and $$$$$$. Water finds its own level.

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  31. Friend: Calvinism is a scary label to us, and socialism is a scary label to the Founders. Do the Founders really want Calvinism, or do they just want total control with a righteous-sounding name and some old books they can point to?

    The Founders accused demonstrators of seeking socialism under the guise of protecting women and children. Is their assertion a tell, revealing their own tactic?

    When we discuss Calvinism, are we diverted from focusing on abuse? I think we can talk about two things at once (plus cricket!), but wanted to put the question out there.

    Could it be the Founder wish to gain access to Seminaries-SBC assets-Power-etc? The Conservative resurgence IMO began as a grab for power and control of SBC assets.

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  32. I was born and raised in the Southern Baptist Convention/complementarian. And I have known since I was 4 years old that Christian men and their god hates me with a bloody passion.

    My father despised toddler baby girls. His father was a Southern Baptist preacher.

    It is crystal clear that Christian men and bible god hate women and hate little girls. It is sickening and bizarre that women want any part in Christianity. You are hated. Your little girls are hated. Your RAPED children are hated. If Christianity is so great then why do so many Christian men hate women and hate raped children so much?

    These are the questions I kept asking my self as a teen trapped in this hell. From the soles of my feet to the top of my head I believe that Christianity is about misogyny and nothing else.

    These men HATE you. They HATE your raped children. These men could have used their time and money to make a video about how horrible child rape is. No. They made a video about how much they hate women. These men hate Rachael Denhollander.

    Why does Christianity resonate with men like this? Why does the bible turn misogynist on?

    What I find really heartbreaking is that Christian women do not love their helpless trapped little girls enough not to subject them to this cruelty.

    Growing up in Christianity for me was toxic. Every day hurt. I wished I had never been born. To this day I wish my mother had aborted me. My mother who was also born and raised in the Southern Baptist Convention wishes she had been aborted.

    I will never believe that bible god loves any woman or her little girls.

    Christianity and Islam both give me a stomach ache; because misogyny gives me a stomach ache.

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  33. Benn: It is no longer cal vs. non cal., it is now back to a conservative vs. progressive battle.

    From my view outside the SBC, it looks more like misogynistic reactionaries vs. authentic conservatives and a few moderates. I just don’t see any progressive threat inside the SBC, or any progressives lobbying for access.

    The real progressives (love ’em or hate ’em) are disengaged from the SBC, and off elsewhere. They certainly welcome escapees from the “beauty of complementarianism,” but that’s about it. Am I missing something? Was there some bonfire of bras at SBC 2019?

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  34. Friend: From my view outside the SBC, it looks more like misogynistic reactionaries vs. authentic conservatives and a few moderates. I just don’t see any progressive threat inside the SBC, or any progressives lobbying for access.

    The real progressives (love ’em or hate ’em) are disengaged from the SBC, and off elsewhere. They certainly welcome escapees from the “beauty of complementarianism,” but that’s about it. Am I missing something? Was there some bonfire of bras at SBC 2019?

    Yes me and many more “liberals” are no longer a part of the SBC. So who are they trying to alienate now so they will leave also?

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  35. mot: So who are they trying to alienate now so they will leave also?

    Anyone and anything within SBC which is not distinctly Calvinist in belief and practice. The “Conservative” Resurgence which you endured was not really a conservative vs. moderate/liberal thing, it was a Calvinist Resurgence (but the SBC masses didn’t get it at the time).

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  36. Friend: Do the Founders really want Calvinism

    Yes, they are true-blue Calvinists. They are extremely fond of the pre-Civil War SBC Founders – many of whom were slave-holding pastors and deacons in the South. They truly believe that Calvinism = Gospel and are attempting to recover what the SBC lost after the War – Southern Baptists have been distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for the last 150 years (pre-Ascol and pre-Mohler, that is).

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  37. Guest: Why does Christianity resonate with men like this? Why does the bible turn misogynist on?

    These are men who resonate with an aberrant form of religion. They do not represent all men who follow Jesus. The bible does not promote misogyny, but it appears to when viewed from certain lenses. Have you heard of Katherine Bushnell and her book “God’s Word to Women”? That book exposes the mysogyny of bible translators.

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  38. Max: Yes, they are true-blue Calvinists.They are extremely fond of the pre-Civil War SBC Founders – many of whom were slave-holding pastors and deacons in the South.They truly believe that Calvinism = Gospel and are attempting to recover what the SBC lost after the War – Southern Baptists have been distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for the last 150 years (pre-Ascol and pre-Mohler, that is).

    Max:
    I think many people do not know Mohler was a very young fellow–early 30’s I seem to remember-when he became President of Southern. IMO his reward for being a faithful soldier in the “conservative” resurgence–I despise these two words.

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  39. Fisher: Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t these Founders calvinsts? Don’t they believe that God is so invasivly Sovereign that he controls every single little thing on the planet? How then can they turn around and say that this same God has allowed something as important as the good news about Jesus to be lost? And this sovereign God needs THEM to defend “the gospel” and bring it back? What universe do they live in? There’s no logic in that.

    You obviously do not understand Calvinism. Here is a sermon by Tom Ascol that clears it all up: https://founders.org/sermons/the-sovereignty-of-god/

    Sarcasm aside, you are absolutely correct. If these men really believed what they teach they wouldn’t teach it. They are a living contradiction. Maybe that is why they express so much fear.

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  40. Friend: Do the Founders really want Calvinism, or do they just want total control with a righteous-sounding name and some old books they can point to?

    I suspect that they are very afraid and in their fear that have latched onto a system that gives them the illusion of control. But it can never alleviate their fear so they keep trying harder and harder because they cannot believe in other alternatives.

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  41. mot: I think many people do not know Mohler was a very young fellow – early 30’s I seem to remember – when he became President of Southern.

    For Wartburgers not familiar with young Mohler, check out the following short video … from a Q&A session with students shortly after becoming SBTS President in 1993. He sent a clear shot over the SBC bow regarding what he thought of women in ministry.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk_VQgsjFz8&t=32s

    Mohler’s cold gaze over those poor students still creeps me out. He was definitely in the “spirit.”

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  42. Friend: From my view outside the SBC, it looks more like misogynistic reactionaries vs. authentic conservatives and a few moderates. I just don’t see any progressive threat inside the SBC, or any progressives lobbying for access.

    The real progressives (love ’em or hate ’em) are disengaged from the SBC, and off elsewhere. They certainly welcome escapees from the “beauty of complementarianism,” but that’s about it. Am I missing something? Was there some bonfire of bras at SBC 2019?

    Friend, this is not necessarily my opinion, but an opinion nonetheless held by a host of conservatives in the SBC
    Russell Moore IS viewed as a progressive, ( many believe he went past go and collected his $ 200.00 and went straight to progressivism).

    Most Conservative SBC’ers think George Soros is the devil incarnate, and that R Moore does his ( Soros) biding from the inside, it is hard to describe how much animus is directed towards Moore

    I believe non cal’s. Have more or less waved the white flag and accepted CAL leadership, I.e. Mohler, Greear, and the like, they just want to purge the liberal/progressive wing from the convention

    I believe this is Aschol sending out a test balloon to see have many non cal.s will get in line
    June of 2020 in Orlando will be here before you know it

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  43. Benn: Friend,this is not necessarily my opinion, but an opinion nonetheless held by a host of conservatives in the SBC
    Russell Moore IS viewed as a progressive, ( many believe he went past go and collected his $ 200.00 and went straight to progressivism).

    Most Conservative SBC’ersthink George Soros is the devil incarnate, and that R Moore does his ( Soros) biding from the inside, it is hard to describe how much animus is directed towards Moore

    I believe non cal’s. Have more or less waved the white flag and accepted CAL leadership, I.e. Mohler, Greear, and the like, they just want to purge the liberal/progressive wing from the convention

    I believe this is Aschol sending out a test balloon to see have many non cal.s will get in line
    June of 2020 in Orlando will be here before you know it

    I wonder if any of these TAKEOVER people or groups now or in the past in the SBC really care about spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

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  44. mot: I wonder if any of these TAKEOVER people or groups now or in the past in the SBC really care about spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

    I get what you are saying, but I would guess that they ( both sides) view this as whole or in part a gospel issue
    So in a backhanded way they feel it is about spreading the true gospel
    The true blue conservatives believe that SJ and CRT teeters on the famous Paul saying if anyone comes to you and brings another gospel, let him be anathema

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  45. Benn: Most Conservative SBC’ers think George Soros is the devil incarnate, and that R Moore does his ( Soros) biding from the inside, it is hard to describe how much animus is directed towards Moore

    I had not heard those two names put together before, and took a brief, wary look. The connection looks less like “follow the money” and more like “Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.”

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  46. Lea: What is this [Social Justice Contras] nonsense?…All I can think of hearing that name is the iran contra

    =JD Hall fancying himself a leader in a guerrilla warfare campaign?

    Contra is Spanish for “against”…Hall’s “Social Justice Contras” are these men like himself who are fighting “against social justice”.

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  47. Founders Ministries Inc. is a 501(c)(3) charitable organisation based in Cape Coral FL. established “to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ through a ministry of teaching and encouragement promoting both doctrine and devotion expressed in the Doctrines of Grace and their experiential application to the local church particularly in the areas of worship and witness. Its officers are (according to 2017filing)
    Thomas K Ascol, President
    Jared Longshore, Secretary
    Tom Hicks, Director
    Thomas J Nettles, Vice-President
    Fred Malone, Director
    Jon English Lee, Director
    Ken Puls, Editorial Director
    Barbara Reisinger, Admin Asst

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  48. Lowlandseer:
    Founders Ministries Inc. is a 501(c)(3) charitable organisation based in Cape Coral FL. established “to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ through a ministry of teaching and encouragement promoting both doctrine and devotion expressed in the Doctrines of Grace and their experiential applicationto the local church particularly in the areas of worship and witness. Its officers are (according to 2017filing)
    Thomas K Ascol, President
    Jared Longshore, Secretary
    Tom Hicks, Director
    Thomas J Nettles, Vice-President
    Fred Malone, Director
    Jon English Lee, Director
    Ken Puls, Editorial Director
    Barbara Reisinger, Admin Asst

    Oh-they have a woman as an officer? Sarcasm alert.

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  49. Friend: I had not heard those two names put together before, and took a brief, wary look. The connection looks less like “follow the money” and more like “Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.”

    Moore I believe is part of Soros open boarders campaign

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  50. Lea: What is this nonsense?…the 15?

    About five years ago, someone tweeted about being disgusted always seeing online “the same 15 Calvinists who are mad at everyone, for everything”.
    JD Hall ran with it, dubbing himself and his allies “The 15”: Phil Johnson’s Pyromaniacs, Tom Chantry, etc.

    https://crossencountersmin.com/uncategorized/why-i-number-myself-among-15/

    “Pastor Tom Chantry of Christ Reformed Baptist Church (Milwaukee) summed it up well: ‘‘The 15’ is…an uprising of serious churchmen calling for ecclesiastical action’.”

    It petered out after a while.

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  51. JDV,

    So on point, especially the Romans 2:24 reference. I think their goal is more like Constantinism rather than evangelism. I’ve always thought the pervasive emphasis on church discipline for so many things is almost a “creeping catholicism” (no offense to my born again Catholic friends). If these people are “Founders’, they’ve sure forgotten the priesthood of the believer. At the bottom line, it’s just a surrender to the desire for political power, both nationally and denominationally- SBC leadership is very nearly equal to Pharisaism. I was raised in the SBC but can’t recognize it anymore.

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  52. SH:
    JDV,

    So on point, especially the Romans 2:24 reference. I think their goal is more like Constantinism rather than evangelism. I’ve always thought the pervasive emphasis on church discipline for so many things is almost a “creeping catholicism” (no offense to my born again Catholic friends). If these people are “Founders’, they’ve sure forgotten the priesthood of the believer. At the bottom line, it’s just a surrender to the desire for political power, both nationally and denominationally- SBC leadership is very nearly equal to Pharisaism. I was raised in the SBC but can’t recognize it anymore.

    I spent 45 years of my life in the SBC and recently left it. I stayed decades longer than I should. I am currently a “done.”

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  53. Benn: It is no longer cal vs. non cal., it is now back to a conservative vs. progressive battle.

    There are no progressives in the SBC. They left years ago for the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, other denominations or just simply out of the church. Anyone who claims there are progressives in the SBC simply doesn’t realize the depth of the exit by people who are not interested in essentially Calvinist fundamentalist dogma. Millions have left. Millions more will leave.

    That said, the use of Scary Nadia Bolz-Weber, Scary Protesters, Scary SJWs and Scary Sen. Bernie Sanders irritated me to no end. With the possible exception of Rev. Bolz-Weber, none of those people probably know about the fracas going on in the SBC. Tom Ascol and his bunch, seeing that the Calvinists (led by Mohler and the rest) are now in the ascendant, are trying to pull the Calvinista faction ever further towards a Calvinistic fundamentalism.

    That’s why I think there are so many independent LBFC 1689ers on the sideline. They may very well win this, but they will, as I said, push millions more people out, because LFBC 1689 Calvinism is generally authoritarian and hostile. They’re the guys quoting 1 John 2:19 at Josh Harris over the past couple of days because the latter admitted to doubt and loss of faith.

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  54. Max: Yes, they are true-blue Calvinists. They are extremely fond of the pre-Civil War SBC Founders – many of whom were slave-holding pastors and deacons in the South. They truly believe that Calvinism = Gospel and are attempting to recover what the SBC lost after the War – Southern Baptists have been distinctly non-Calvinist in belief and practice for the last 150 years (pre-Ascol and pre-Mohler, that is).

    Rod Martin is all over that. Here’s a quote from the “trailer” (at 03:29):

    That has been their core tactic for a century and a half. It’s not new. It’s not even new to Southern Baptists. Because Satan does this. He is constantly telling you you should be guilty when you’re forgiven. He is constantly asking you to live with regrets when the Father has taken all the sins of the world.”

    I know people are not going to agree with me here, but let me just state this. I believe Rod Martin is first harking back to a time when the SBC, started by slaveholders for the benefit of slaveholders was in the ascendant. It was an SBC dominated by Calvinism. But (and this is MY OPINION) after the Civil War, the Calvinist slaveowners who started the SBC were pushed out of power and the non-Calvinists came in. One could argue if the failure of the Civil War contributed to this. However, the fact that Rod Martin is going back 150 years ago says volumes and it is worth thinking about.

    Second, and again, people are going to disagree with me, Martin is telling his hearers NOT to feel guilty when people of color talk about reparations. That’s what the whole “you’ve been forgiven” stuff is about. It’s not about your personal sin, it’s about the sins of society. To be blunt, America was, IMHO, founded upon two original sins: the near-extermination of the American Indians and the taking of their lands and the slave trade. In neither case, again IMHO, have either group been made whole.

    The Founders guys, in their arguments against “social justice” are very seriously attacking even the discussion of reparations. Their argument is that they’ve been forgiven for whatever their ancestors did and they don’t have to make amends for what happened up to within their lifetimes (that is, Jim Crow and the denial of the right to vote). No, they’ve been forgiven, and no, we should not continue to discuss this. That’s why you see these guys on Twitter quote Galatians 3:28 and then say that there really shouldn’t be any discussion about the past because we’re all one in Jesus Christ. *facepalm*

    Again, I don’t expect people to agree with me, but this is one thing behind Founders’ attack and why they included Scary Protesters, Scary SJWs and Scary Bernie Sanders. It’s not just about the SBC. It’s about society in general, and people of color and women asking for equality and discussing the wrongs of the past and making them right.

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  55. mot: Oh-they have a woman as an officer? Sarcasm alert.

    Ever heard of “Token”?

    Ans here title is “Adminstrative Assistant”. That’s Newspeak for what the Fifties called a “secretary” — take dictation, type, wait on the male Boss hand-and-foot…

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  56. Jerome: JD Hall ran with it, dubbing himself and his allies “The 15”: Phil Johnson’s Pyromaniacs, Tom Chantry, etc.

    Isn’t Chantry doing 25 years as a “Papa Spank!” short-eyes?

    And “15”? Just had to top that Rabbi from Nazareth’s “12”, didn’t they?

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  57. Benn: It is no longer cal vs. non cal., it is now back to a conservative vs. progressive battle.

    If so, then it is conservative Calvinism (Old Calvinism) vs. progressive Calvinism (New Calvinism) … hyper-Calvinism vs. diluted-Calvinism. But, Calvinism vs. non-Calvinism continues to be at the heart of the current SBC rift. The theopolitical battle which will eventually split the denomination is over the default theology for Southern Baptists going forward into this century … Calvinism has the upper hand at this point; it controls most SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program).

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  58. Ken F (aka Tweed): Have you heard of Katherine Bushnell and her book “God’s Word to Women”? That book exposes the mysogyny of bible translators.

    I tried to read God’s Word to Women but I couldn’t get past the anti-Semitic thinking. *sigh* Other people may not have that problem, but it was one for me.

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  59. The first time I ever came across the discernment blogsphere was around 15 years ago, when I started to look at one or two everybody-is-deceived-by-deception-through-the-satanic-power-of-satan-apart-from-me.com websites. They all showed anger, hate and contempt towards anyone and everyone who disagreed with them, and they all believed that they and they alone had ever read the biblescribshers.

    This group seems to be an evolution of the early everyone-but-me-is-of-the-satandevil brigade. They seem to’ve discovered suits, marketing and properly sophisticated lying.

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  60. Ken F (aka Tweed): I suspect that they are very afraid and in their fear that have latched onto a system that gives them the illusion of control. But it can never alleviate their fear so they keep trying harder and harder because they cannot believe in other alternatives.

    1) Displacement Behavior. When everything around you spirals out of control, find something you CAN control and micromanage it to death. “ME IN CONTROL! SEE? SEE? SEE?”
    2) Sunk Cost Fallacy. If it doesn’t work, Double Down and SCREAM LOUDER! LOUDER! LOUDER!

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  61. Max: Yes, they are true-blue Calvinists. They are extremely fond of the pre-Civil War SBC Founders

    And their Peculiar Institution regarding certain Animate Property?
    AKA God’s Will and Blessing on His Faithful?

    Look at the history of Calvinism. It became the Gospel for Control Freaks real early in its lifespan.

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  62. mot: Yes me and many more “liberals” are no longer a part of the SBC.So who are they trying to alienate now so they will leave also?

    What do Predators eat after they’ve killed/driven off all the Prey?

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  63. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: God’s Word to Women

    Legendary physicist Richard Feynman was once faced with a group of hecklers (led, ironically, by a male) calling him a Sexist_Pig for whatever reason. He answered them, from the stage, with words to the following effect, which I paraphrase as closely as I can recall them:

    I’m sorry you don’t want to listen to this talk, because my subject tonight – the structure of the proton – is of great interest to women.

    Apparently, this group heckled everyone and anyone, and Feynman shut them up quicker than anyone else ever had.

    My point? God’s Word to Women is Jesus of Nazareth. For myself (and I don’t think I’m alone here) I can honour nothing, and no-one, beside Him.

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  64. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I tried to read God’s Word to Women but I couldn’t get past the anti-Semitic thinking.

    Interesting how different people see things differently. She was quite hard on the Jewish male translators and their culture of excluding women from learning. But I interpreted this as her being against their misogyny rather then being against their Jewishness.

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  65. Ricco: My question for the Founders is, what is your endgame? Denounce everyone as a heretic except your board? Then what? If you stop finding people to denounce, you loose your reason to exist.

    Remember the ever-expanding Kill Orders of the Khmer Rouge?
    i.e. What filled the Killing Fields of Cambodia?
    When Vietnam finally invaded, the Kill Orders had expanded to “anyone and everyone who was not a Khmer Rouge Party Member BEFORE the takeover”.

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  66. They will start to devour their own after they took are of what they would perceive to be liberals. Wormwood continues to grin and the feasting begins.

    “J’ACCUSE HEBERT!!!!!” — Danton (CHOP! CHOP! CHOP!)
    “J’ACCUSE DANTON!!!!!” — Robespierre (CHOP! CHOP! CHOP!)
    “J’ACCUSE ROBESPIERRE!!!!!” — Les Thermidorois (CHOP! CHOP! CHOP!)

    “VIVE L’EMPEREUR! VIVE NAPOLEON!!!!!”

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  67. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I tried to read God’s Word to Women but I couldn’t get past the anti-Semitic thinking. *sigh* Other people may not have that problem, but it was one for me.

    Just curious.

    Respectfully, can you point me to Bushnell’s lesson passages that have an anti-Jew bent?

    No desire here to contend with your opinion whatsoever, I just wanna’ sight along the vector you have, in order to see what you see.

    It’s an art I’m trying to cultivate, no judgements, no right answer, no wrong answer, just a desire to see what others see, without necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with it.

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  68. mot,

    “I spent 45 years of my life in the SBC and recently left it. I stayed decades longer than I should. I am currently a “done.””
    ++++++++++++++

    i can only begin to imagine the enormous changes this brings to your life. How are you doing with it all?

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  69. elastigirl:
    mot,

    “I spent 45 years of my life in the SBC and recently left it. I stayed decades longer than I should. I am currently a “done.””
    ++++++++++++++

    i can only begin to imagine the enormous changes this brings to your life.How are you doing with it all?

    It is so hard. The last church I pastored the deacons wanted me to resign with no warning or attempt to find a way forward. I was to be given a Sunday to announce my resignation to the church and then one Sunday beyond that. From my way of thinking I was not mad the Sunday I gave my resignation-but I was told by the deacons not to return for my final Sunday. I let the church know I was not resigning on my own the last Sunday I was with them and I do not think the deacons liked this.
    Thankfully my wife and two children are giving me the space to try and work through my disillusionment with church people. I still believe in and have faith in God. I just have lots of questions about these 45 years.

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  70. This is article is very wrong on some very important matters. Dee and the ladies need to call me if they want to understand a topic related to the SBC before they write about it. I would be happy to help, so at least the facts are right about a subject.

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  71. JD Hall:
    This is article is very wrong on some very important matters. Dee and the ladies need to call me if they want to understand a topic related to the SBC before they write about it. I would be happy to help, so at least the facts are right about a subject.

    Dee and the ladies. Sounds mighty condescending to me.

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  72. K.D.:
    I wonder, do these ” Founders” think heaven is ” lily white?” Or just want their pews to be?

    I honestly wonder what “their” heaven is like? I am not sure I am going to make it to “their” heaven.

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  73. JD Hall,

    I’m sure all my fellow-Wartburgers are as interested as I am in right facts.

    A claim concerning “THE facts” [emphasis mine] is a very bold one, and simple arithmetic says that when someone claims to be presenting “the facts”, it is more likely than not that they are presenting a calculated subset of all the possible facts in a deliberate and calculated attempt to manipulate and deceive. Nonetheless, if you have facts that you are anxious to present, I’m sure you’re welcome to make them generally available.

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  74. Nick Bulbeck:
    JD Hall,

    I’m sure all my fellow-Wartburgers are as interested as I am in right facts.

    A claim concerning “THE facts” [emphasis mine] is a very bold one, and simple arithmetic says that when someone claims to be presenting “the facts”, it is more likely than not that they are presenting a calculated subset of all the possible facts in a deliberate and calculated attempt to manipulate and deceive. Nonetheless, if you have facts that you are anxious to present, I’m sure you’re welcome to make them generally available.

    Yes Dee might even allow him to place his facts right here on Her blog.

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  75. mot: I am not sure I am going to make it to “their” heaven.

    Their god is a contemptible dumb idol, in the face of which I can never produce enough phlegm to fully spit my contempt; and I don’t believe any sentient being could want to go to such a “heaven”. That said, my God is more than big enough to surprise them (and, indeed, me), and I don’t need them to go_to_hell so I can go_to_heaven.

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  76. JD Hall:
    This is article is very wrong on some very important matters. Dee and the ladies need to call me if they want to understand a topic related to the SBC before they write about it. I would be happy to help, so at least the facts are right about a subject.

    What you might do is say which things are wrong and which things are right, state it all up front, rather than trying to butter up “Dee and the ladies” in private. They don’t have to call you, why don’t you just tell us, “JD and the guys”, just what’s the truth and support it with evidence, links, etc.? We’re adults and we can handle it. if you have something to offer, offer it up.

    Your call, JD, ball’s in your court.

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  77. mot,

    i’m very sorry for how you were treated.

    perhaps a long season of… camping? filling your lungs with fresh air. hiking/backpacking in remote & high places where christian jack@$sery disappears into total irrelevance?

    simplifying God down the beauty of a sunset.

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  78. When the Conservatives took over more than a decade ago, I told my then roommates that the way you build your kingdom is ALSO the way you have MAINTAIN that kingdom. The Conservatives built their power base via lies (try to tell a Baylor grad that either BU presidents Abner McCall or Herbert Reynolds were liberals–I have friends that are still laughing over that one!). They built by demonizing those who did not agree with them. They built by instilling fear that if their “men” [not women, are you kidding me?] did not get and hold leadership positions, the convention was headed for destruction. Well, guess what? They won. They got rid of all who did not hold their views, and though they don’t realize it yet, they lost the next generation of SBC men and women who were disgusted by their actions. But because these guys don’t know how to build, nurture or support, they do what they have always done to get and maintain their positions–they lie, they demonize, and they try to scare people into thinking that the convention will die if they don’t get their way. Again. And that cycle will continue until there is nothing good left. As was stated above, true progressives left years ago, so they have to create enemies out of whole cloth. And that is exactly what they are doing. And because most of the present SBC leadership has their positions via the tactics I just described, they can’t fight back, because they have already compromised themselves by following those same tactics all those years ago. If they acquire a spine and do decide to fight back, they will be lied about, demonized, and made into the scary monster that must be slain to save the SBC. We’ve seen this movie before. We know how it ends…

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  79. Law Prof: What you might do is say which things are wrong and which things are right, state it all up front, rather than trying to butter up “Dee and the ladies” in private.They don’t have to call you, why don’t you just tell us, “JD and the guys”, just what’s the truth and support it with evidence, links, etc.?We’re adults and we can handle it.if you have something to offer, offer it up.

    Your call, JD, ball’s in your court.

    Not a betting man, but IMO he is just trying to score points with his buddies by coming here and posting that 1 condescending comment.

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  80. elastigirl:
    mot,

    i’m very sorry for how you were treated.

    perhaps a long season of… camping?filling your lungs with fresh air.hiking/backpacking in remote & high places where christian jack@$sery disappears into total irrelevance?

    simplifying God down the beauty of a sunset.

    Your concern for my well being touches me deeply. You made my day! I do need to decompress-especially from the last almost 20 years of having made my self available to serve in SBC churches. It has adversely affected my health on multiple levels.

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  81. Some tenets of the Founders war on Social Justice is that they deny the existence of systemic racism and white priviledge. They cannot be expected to have any meaningful dialogue on race relations or meaningful cross-cultural gospel witness with this starting position.

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  82. You know, JD is so predictable. So commonplace, prosaic, ho-hum. It is such a cliché to come blowing into a forum or Twitter or what have you and tut-tut the people there and say something vague like “Oh well, you don’t know the facts LIKE I DO.” It’s virtually always a vague thing, just a general denouncement, no facts, no links, no logic, no reason—almost never backed up by anything at all other than the hot air blown into the forum by the tut-tutter.

    People can say what they want about watchbloggers, but blast it, they deal in facts and figures and real-life anecdotes and links and evidence. You might disagree with their interpretation of the evidence, might disagree with their facts, but at leat THEY ACTUALLY USE THEM!

    So JD, unless you want to prove to everyone that you don’t know jack squat and have absolutely nothing to support your opinions, get your butt back on here and tell us the facts. Jesus dealt in facts and His children are supposed to deal in them as well, why can’t you? (I may have just answered my own question, God knows).

    We’re waiting, JD.

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  83. mot,

    “I honestly wonder what “their” heaven is like? I am not sure I am going to make it to “their” heaven.”
    +++++++

    as stale & sweaty as the air in their heaven-on-earth bunker they’re building for themselves, perhaps?

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  84. FW Rez:
    Some tenets of the Founders war on Social Justice is that they deny the existence of systemic racism and white priviledge. They cannot be expected to have any meaningful dialogue on race relations or meaningful cross-cultural gospel witness with this starting position.

    I wonder in addition to Founders if there are maybe even millions that believe they should be at war against social justice. I hope I am wrong about this.

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  85. I have followed the SBC conversation on the role of women in ministry all my adult life, predating the CR. Founders are the first I’ve heard to lash out at those that hold to a view of allowing women to speak in the assembly of believers as being sinners.They KNOW that there are people holding to inerrancy of scripture and using sound hermeneutics that come to a different conclusion than they do. They are either being disingenuous or dishonest.

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  86. mot,

    i understand. (using imagination informed by my own journey). Time in places like the Sierras can fill one’s soul with the magnificence of creation, & there’s no room for stupid stuff of the past.

    quite frankly, agenda-free time spent with beautiful human beings of other religions or no religion does the same. it’s like an amazing & spectacular vista to behold.

    church culture (even years of it) is puny in comparison, and the space it occupied in one’s soul shrinks.

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  87. When I look at some of the conferences that Tom Ascol and Josh Buice (a major contributer) speak at, I conclude that part of Founders agenda is more related to Election 2020 than Doctrine of Election.

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  88. Benn: My point was a lot, and I truly mean a lot of conservative SBC’ers believe that R Moore is a closet progressive
    I can’t see into the mans heart, so all I am saying many believe he is progressive

    As a teen, I was interested in Russian literature. Any idea how many people called me a Communist? A neighbor boy accused me of working for the KGB. People called me Ivan, though I was quite obviously a girl. Nope, they couldn’t see in my heart, but they could see that suspicious copy of Crime and Punishment.

    Maybe the SBC should get out of the mind-reading business.

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  89. Headless Unicorn Guy: “J’ACCUSE HEBERT!!!!!” — Danton (CHOP! CHOP! CHOP!)
    “J’ACCUSE DANTON!!!!!” — Robespierre (CHOP! CHOP! CHOP!)
    “J’ACCUSE ROBESPIERRE!!!!!” — Les Thermidorois (CHOP! CHOP! CHOP!)

    “VIVE L’EMPEREUR! VIVE NAPOLEON!!!!!”

    I knew I could depend on HUG for a pertinent and succinct French Revolution comment. Merci!

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  90. Friend: As a teen, I was interested in Russian literature. Any idea how many people called me a Communist? A neighbor boy accused me of working for the KGB. People called me Ivan, though I was quite obviously a girl. Nope, they couldn’t see in my heart, but they could see that suspicious copy of Crime and Punishment.

    Maybe the SBC should get out of the mind-reading business.

    Can I ask you for an opinion, if they answer is yes, then proceed?

    Do you feel informed enough to form an opinion as to George Soros’s world view ?

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  91. Beakerj: Why not lay the real facts out here for us, so that us ladies that are also Masters, via the power of education, may analyse them for ourselves?

    Indeed, if anyone needs to contact Mr Hall in order to understand a topic – any topic, come to that – he has given no evidence of it. He really needs to do better; Wartburg doesn’t lack trolls, after all.

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  92. Friend: As a teen, I was interested in Russian literature. Any idea how many people called me a Communist? A neighbor boy accused me of working for the KGB. People called me Ivan, though I was quite obviously a girl. Nope, they couldn’t see in my heart, but they could see that suspicious copy of Crime and Punishment.

    Maybe the SBC should get out of the mind-reading business.

    One last thing on Moore, he makes a ton of money given by hard working church goers, and he is paid to be a singular voice to speak for the SBC members,on matters of ethics, freedom, and religion.

    IMHO, it is well within reason to ask he him his views and personal opinions, and to ask him for reasons when his opinions seem to change over time.

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  93. mot:

    Thomas K Ascol, President
    Jared Longshore, Secretary
    Tom Hicks, Director
    Thomas J Nettles, Vice-President
    Fred Malone, Director
    Jon English Lee, Director
    Ken Puls, Editorial Director
    Barbara Reisinger, Admin Asst</blockquote
    Oh-they have a woman as an officer? Sarcasm alert.

    I agree; it’s almost as though someone on the inside were trying to parody them. As the saying goes: Yer couldn’t make it up.

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  94. Pingback: SBC Voices Hit-Piece on Tom Ascol the Dumbest Thing I've Ever Read

  95. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: That’s why you see these guys on Twitter quote Galatians 3:28 and then say that there really shouldn’t be any discussion about the past because we’re all one in Jesus Christ. *facepalm*

    That is hypocritical of them. They deny Gal 3.28 in the context of demonstrating that women are equal to men. They like to say no, it’s not applicable to men and women or wives and husbands (they dearly love their Male Headship doctrine).

    But now that it’s convenient to their cause, NOW they want to use Gal 3. 28 in that manner.

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  96. Max: Moore’s reversal on women in leadership really raised their hackles.

    Because as I’ve said many times, they care way less about ‘calvinism’ than they do keeping women down and themselves in charge. [to clue it up, calvinism is just a red herring]

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  97. Nick Bulbeck,

    I should have spotted this immediately. I blame the wine I had with dinner. Anyway, the original comment is completely devoid of any context or specific detail, or anything else that would show the commenter had read AND UNDERSTOOD the discussion. That’s because the commenter has neither read nor understood the discussion. It’s a chatbot.

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  98. Friend: The real progressives (love ’em or hate ’em) are disengaged from the SBC, and off elsewhere. They certainly welcome escapees from the “beauty of complementarianism,” but that’s about it

    This is 100 why my church is full of ex baptists. That and people who are gay and unwelcome as well.

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  99. Nick Bulbeck: The first time I ever came across the discernment blogsphere was around 15 years ago, when I started to look at one or two everybody-is-deceived-by-deception-through-the-satanic-power-of-satan-apart-from-me.com websites. They all showed anger, hate and contempt towards anyone and everyone who disagreed with them, and they all believed that they and they alone had ever read the biblescribshers.
    This group seems to be an evolution of the early everyone-but-me-is-of-the-satandevil brigade.

    I came across one of those types of websites about 15 years ago.

    They listed everyone famous in Christianity, and even some not-so-famous types. They had everyone’s name on the list of heretics except for themselves (there were two or three guys who owned the site).

    If you didn’t agree with those guys on 100% of their theology, you were either a heretic or deceived of a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    I appreciate so much how Christians like that think they have everything figured out, and they assume that NONE of their interpretations of the Bible or understanding of God may be incorrect.

    There is zero humility with these types.

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  100. Jerome: “Pastor Tom Chantry of Christ Reformed Baptist Church (Milwaukee) summed it up well: ‘‘The 15’ is…an uprising of serious churchmen calling for ecclesiastical action’.”

    you are a fount of information! It’s a wonder these men aren’t downright embarrassed at the company they’ve kept.

    Lowlandseer:
    Jerome,

    “Contras” was the name given to the (right wing) groups funded by the USA to bring down the Sandinista government in Nicaragua in the 1980s.

    So…iran contra scandal. As I said.

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  101. FW Rez,

    I could be wrong, but I think the prohibition is on debating political topics, not mentioning the very existence of politics. I also believe that much that takes place within the world of evangelicalism has to do with politics.

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  102. Bridget: It appears JD Hall needs to go through an authority before he can speak to the pewons . . . Very strange.

    I refer the Honourable Lady to my earlier comments that “J.D. Hall” is actually a bot in this context.

    Whether there is a “real” J.D. Hall anywhere else isn’t my area of expertise… LOL… but seriously, the one we saw here is definitely fake.

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  103. TS00: I could be wrong, but I think the prohibition is on debating political topics, not mentioning the very existence of politics.

    The main goal is to keep the spam filters clear of party political troll-dung. Dee/GBTC have to trawl through some very unpleasant stuff as it is in order to rescue allowable comments. With the best will, and Kismet spam-filters, in the world, some real comments get stuck. Some of it is crude bot-generated spam of the sort that is sent out by the billion, some of it is more sophisticated chatbot spam like Hallbot above, that odd programmers write to see if they can. Some of it is unpleasant humans who just want to cause trouble for their own amusement. Like a child running into a goup, throwing a stinkbomb on the floor and running away laughing. (And they may well laugh, because they’re very, very clever! MUCH cleverer than us.)

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  104. mot: I wonder in addition to Founders if there are maybe even millions that believe they should be at war against social justice.

    The problem with that phrase is how non-descriptive it is. It could mean many things, including things that should be opposed and things that should be fought for. Without knowing exactly what the other person means by the phrase it is nearly impossible to have meaningful dialogue.

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  105. Friend: When we discuss Calvinism, are we diverted from focusing on abuse?

    “The Founders are a group of rabid Calvinists who have long hidden in the shadowlands of the SBC … By church reform they mean to remake the church in their image of Calvinism, no matter what it takes … ” (Dee)

    Rabid Calvinism within SBC – at the hands of both “Old” and “New” expressions of it – is a form of spiritual abuse. Ask participants at the For Such A Time As This rally who were accosted in the Founders’ stealth interview at SBC-2019 if they felt abused. Ask the tens of thousands of traditional Southern Baptists who are leaving the SBC each year due to the New Calvinist takeover of their churches and denomination if they felt abused. Ask the great multitude of women ensnared by New Calvinism’s “beauty of complementarity” if they are feeling abused yet. Yep, The Wartburg Watch is right to focus on this theological branch in their mission to “dissect Christian trends”, IMO … it has produced much misery and abuse within the Body of Christ.

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  106. JD Hall: This is article is very wrong on some very important matters. Dee and the ladies need to call me if they want to understand a topic related to the SBC before they write about it. I would be happy to help, so at least the facts are right about a subject.

    JD, how about answering these questions about the trailer first?

    1) Why were the enemies of Founders depicted in graytones while the Founders heroes were in full color?

    2) What was the purpose of Nadia Bolz-Weber, protesters, SJWs, BLMs and Sen. Bernie Sanders in the trailer?

    3) Why was Rachael Denhollander in the first two versions of the trailer and why was she removed from the trailer?

    4) Why did Founders hire a “filmmaker” from Arizona who is not a Southern Baptist but who goes to an independent LBFC 1689 church? And, why is James R. White, a “pastor/elder” at this same church, so very entangled with with the trailer?

    5) Why were there no voices of women in the trailer?

    6) What does Founders have against confronting the scourge of child sexual abuse in the churches?

    7) Why does Rod Martin point back 150 years in the trailer? Does he, does Founders, do you, want to go back to the ethos of the antebellum South, where rich white men were in charge, poor white men were kept poor but told to see themselves as better than slaves, and black people were a peculiar sort of animate property? Speaking as a descendant of poor white Southerners, I’m certainly not wanting to go back to those times, thank you very much.

    P.S. I am a *woman*, not one of the ladies. I speak only for myself.

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  107. mot: That why I have a major problem with SBC Voices – from which I am banned because I have questioned the SBC’s stance on women for years.

    Yes, do not be distracted by SBC-Voices’ statement. They have not all of a sudden turned friendly toward wimmenfolk and certainly do not represent the millions of mainline SBC voices which are out there (although the giant is silent). They are simply following General Mohler’s battleground maneuver on this.

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  108. FW Rez:
    Some tenets of the Founders war on Social Justice is that they deny the existence of systemic racism and white priviledge. They cannot be expected to have any meaningful dialogue on race relations or meaningful cross-cultural gospel witness with this starting position.

    Thank you for stating very succinctly what I was trying to say in my screed. This is indeed the problem with Founders, and they use Galatians 3:28 to try and evade any discussion whatsoever of systemic racism throughout society.

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  109. This program is missing some very important information. You gentlemen should all contact me if you wish to know the facts about a situation. The tulips in my garden are blooming early this year! Nick Bulbeck’s comments are always true and everyone should buy his books. BUWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!

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  110. I may have mis-spelled the name of one of my little-used alter-egos just now. I’m working on my MacBook at the moment, and I’ve never managed to set it up so that it pre-fills the fields with previously used entries. I’m sure there’s a simple way to fix this, but I haven’t looked it up yet! Shame on me…

    So my alter-ego’s comment ended up in customs – where it belongs, TBH. (But then, the same could be said of most of my comments.)

    Anyway, the important point about the post currently in customs is twofold:
     Nick Bulbeck’s comments are all true and everyone should agree with them;
     Can’t remember the other part, but just agree with all my comments. Some of them have scribshers in them.

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  111. Lea: ‘progressive’

    Webster: (noun) “progressive”: a person advocating reform … the New Calvinists are on a mission to reform the American church, to restore the gospel that the church has lost (or so they believe). Being progressive doesn’t necessarily mean you are liberal.

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  112. Max: Being progressive doesn’t necessarily mean you are liberal.

    Indeed, being “liberal” doesn’t mean you sacrifice goats to statin. But it’s a convenient snarl-word, like Rik off The Young Ones (anarchic and somewhat groundbreaking 1980’s UK sitcom) shouting “FASCIST!” at everyone he didn’t like.

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  113. Ken F (aka Tweed):
    What struck me most about the trailer is the level of fear in all the full-color speakers. I have read quite a few Founders articles but I never associated those articles with such a level of fear. This trailer changed my view of Founders. These guys are terrified and they are trying to make everyone else as terrified as they are. They might have overplayed their hand with this documentary by exposing how fearful they are. Wasn’t there someone who once said something about perfect live casting out fear?

    They are fearful because the world as they wish it to be is slipping away from them. But I think what scares them even more is that the church culture that they have been so used to, where powerful men abuse and misuse their authority, is regularly being exposed because of the internet and social media. They can’t fool people anymore and that threatens their status.

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  114. Max: Yes, do not be distracted by SBC-Voices’ statement.They have not all of a sudden turned friendly toward wimmenfolk and certainly do not represent the millions of mainline SBC voices which are out there (although the giant is silent).They are simply following General Mohler’s battleground maneuver on this.

    Max, IMO they have an agenda and women are not part of their agenda. I would have more respect for these “men’ if they were upfront with their agenda.

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  115. Guest:
    I was born and raised in the Southern Baptist Convention/complementarian. And I have known since I was 4 years old that Christian men and their god hates me with a bloody passion.

    My father despised toddler baby girls. His father was a Southern Baptist preacher.

    It is crystal clear that Christian men and bible god hate women and hate little girls. It is sickening and bizarre that women want any part in Christianity. You are hated. Your little girls are hated. Your RAPED children are hated. If Christianity is so great then why do so many Christian men hate women and hate raped children so much?

    These are the questions I kept asking my self as a teen trapped in this hell. From the soles of my feet to the top of my head I believe that Christianity is about misogyny and nothing else.

    These men HATE you. They HATE your raped children. These men could have used their time and money to make a video about how horrible child rape is. No. They made a video about how much they hate women. These men hate Rachael Denhollander.

    Why does Christianity resonate with men like this? Why does the bible turn misogynist on?

    What I find really heartbreaking is that Christian women do not love their helpless trapped little girls enough not to subject them to this cruelty.

    Growing up in Christianity for me was toxic. Every day hurt. I wished I had never been born. To this day I wish my mother had aborted me. My mother who was also born and raised in the Southern Baptist Convention wishes she had been aborted.

    I will never believe that bible god loves any woman or her little girls.

    Christianity and Islam both give me a stomach ache; because misogyny gives me a stomach ache.

    I am so very sorry for all the hell you have been through at the hands of so-called “Christians.” I personally think that the majority of the institution that calls itself “church” has been overrun by sexist, narcissistic abusers and abuse-enablers, and it turns my stomach. I don’t fully understand why so much of the so-called “church” has been overtaken by abusers and abuse-enablers. Jesus said that in the time of His return, it would be as it was in the days of Noah and as it was in the days of Lot, so maybe that’s part of it. Anyway, I know you’ve been very deeply wounded by abusers wearing the name of Christ (and they WILL answer for that someday, btw) and it breaks my heart what they did to you. However, I implore you, PLEASE don’t associate these abusive pieces of filth with Jesus Christ. I grew up in a church environment that enabled my abusive narcissistic egg donor, and you are right when you say that these people hate raped and abused children. They do. But the God I’ve known and walked with so many years of my life is just as repulsed by abusers and oppressors as you and I are. God pleaded many, many times throughout the Old Testament for His people to show justice to the fatherless and widows. He brought judgment upon His own people because they were oppressing the most vulnerable in their society. Just read the book of Amos. These abusive creeps are headed for God’s judgment too. Again, I am SO sorry that you have been so badly hurt. I hope with all my heart that you find the healing you need, and I wish you all the best.

    https://expreacherman.com/

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  116. From the op:

    “The Founders began filming and asked bizarre questions of several of the participants such as how they viewed women preachers and LGBT issues. Since these folks were there to discuss sex abuse in the SBC, these questions seemed out of place. I viewed them from a distance, recognizing Tom Ascol. I am seriously upset that they didn’t come to speak to me…”

    I believe that the Founders targeted the For Such a Time as This rally not because they don’t care about abuse (and I’m not saying they do care), but because the rally was organized by Ashley Easter, a self-described “Christian Feminist” and a progressive. The Founders see her as an apostate to be fought against and not partnered with. Even if the cause is worthy, it runs against everything they believe to be an ally with the likes of Ashley Easter.

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  117. JDV [quoting the Flounders, or something]: “First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse.”

    Well, true biblical Jesus kingdomGospel is the answer to sin, drugs, climate change, world poverty and people driving too slow in the fast lane.

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  118. mot: I am not really sure they know who Jesus is?

    I’m not really sure they need to, because they have made a system where, by design, they don’t actually need him in anything but an academic sense.

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  119. Nick Bulbeck…and people driving too slow in the fast lane.

    Can anyone tell me why people drive 60 mph (or even 70mph) in the 70mph fast lane? Do they notice all the cars lining up behind them if they have a car in the slow lane to their right? Or if there is no car next to them, do they notice all the cars passing them on the right? I have a few theories, things I’ve seen:

    1). The Texters – Some people like to text while they drive on the highways (which makes them dangerous) and they put the car on cruise control at a speed under the maximum and just let it roll, knowing they’ll be unlikely to run into anyone in front of them and not caring one bit about anyone they slow or endanger (which makes them selfish).

    2). The Clueless – Some people are completely clueless, they don’t know the most basic rules of the road, they’ve somehow never observed the customs of their fellow human beings. Left lane, right lane, it’s all the same to them. These people are like the ones who wake up one morning in hard labor and give birth and it’s a total surprise, they didn’t notice a thing those last nine months.

    3). The Pharisees – Some people just love to enforce the law. They always wanted to be a cop but they couldn’t pass the physical and they’re bitter about it, so they become The Enforcers. Or maybe they’re more like Pharisees. If they were in one of those countries where they have the restrictions against women showing any parts of their bodies, they’d be first in line to volunteer to grab sticks and whack poor unsuspected women’s ankles when they dare to leave them exposed. These people should be in Sovereign Grace.

    4). The Malcontents – Some people just generally hate life generally and want everyone to feel as miserable as them. So they get a sadistic thrill out of watching 35 cars line up behind them as they drive exactly the same speed as the car on their right for a dozen miles. These people should REALLY be in Sovereign Grace.

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  120. Ken F (aka Tweed): I’m not really sure they need to, because they have made a system where, by design, they don’t actually need him in anything but an academic sense.

    And whose only purpose for existence is to give THEM justification by Divine Right for whatever control freakiness they want to pull.

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  121. Ken F (aka Tweed):
    What struck me most about the trailer is the level of fear in all the full-color speakers. I have read quite a few Founders articles but I never associated those articles with such a level of fear. This trailer changed my view of Founders. These guys are terrified and they are trying to make everyone else as terrified as they are. They might have overplayed their hand with this documentary by exposing how fearful they are. Wasn’t there someone who once said something about perfect live casting out fear?

    But when it comes to manipulating others…

    “FEAR ALWAYS WORKS!”
    — Acting Mayor Bellweather, Zootopia

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  122. Benn: IMHO, it is well within reason to ask [Moore] his views and personal opinions, and to ask him for reasons when his opinions seem to change over time.

    […] That’s [George Soros’s] income stream,not a world view……

    Moore can explain his own evolving views better than I. Many folks’ views change over time (see: synoptic Gospels and Acts), so I’m not sure that automatically means he is in anyone’s thrall.

    It’s too easy to discredit someone by alleging a connection, however tenuous, to George Soros. By “ten trillion pies” I meant his supposed influence over things that probably do not interest him, such as Baptist infighting. (Further, and I know you do not mean this, some allegations against Soros are horrifyingly anti-Semitic.) I won’t write more directly. It is treading toward politics, and it feels like gotcha.

    Do you believe Russell Moore is a progressive threat to the SBC—based on his views rather than supposed connections?

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  123. Max: Rabid Calvinism within SBC – at the hands of both “Old” and “New” expressions of it – is a form of spiritual abuse.

    Very helpful distillation. Are the progressive threats Ashley Easter and Russell Moore? Is that’s what all of the activity is about?

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  124. Friend: Are the progressive threats Ashley Easter and Russell Moore?

    The Founders do not like Russell Moore and his social agenda, they’ve made that clear. Ashley Easter? They just don’t like women in any leadership role, period.

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  125. mot: This is so sad, yet so many SBC leaders would not admit this IMO.

    It’s because they have made a career of not admitting it. To admit it now after so many years of not admitting it would require superhuman humility.

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  126. Friend: Is that’s what all of the activity is about?

    All of this activity is about control … who will control the once-great evangelistic denomination called the Southern Baptist Convention. It’s certainly not about Jesus … His authority is waning in the SBC with each passing day.

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  127. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    There’s also the very strong belief that there is zero discrimination against blacks and women today. Also zero discrimination agaimst refugees or Latinx.

    White males are forgiven for what theu did in the past and what they are doing right now. They are ‘perfect in god’s sight’ and no one is allowed to question their deeds, past or present!!

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  128. Darlene,

    BINGO.

    I think that on a subconscious level they know that their days of holding such sway over the common pew serf are coming to an end.

    They know that their shtick is not sustainable and that it will go the way of the T-Rex.

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  129. Muff Potter:
    Darlene,

    BINGO.

    I think that on a subconscious level they know that their days of holding such sway over the common pew serf are coming to an end.

    They know that their shtick is not sustainable and that it will go the way of the T-Rex.

    And church discipline combined with proof-texting minimum percentages to the “local church” or else appears to be the preferred way for wolves and hirelings to get while the getting is good.

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  130. Friend:
    “Did you know that even Augustine was a kind of Calvinist?”

    Oh, why stop with Augustine? The Sanhedrin were Calvinists too. Maybe even Cain himself.

    Don’t forget Adam and Eve, and Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

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  131. Lea:
    “…Second, Feminism has been trying to leverage the sexual abuse of women to advance its unbiblical agenda.”

    I just want to say I read this weeks ago, but I’m still mad about it. It’s disgusting. If you see the abuse of women and children as merely a ‘tool’ to leverage against yourselves and your own power, no flipping wonder they don’t care! Disgusting.

    I think there’s something even more insidious going on here. These Patriarchal men reject the definition of what is considered abuse. They would love to go back to the good old days when men hit their wives and law enforcement and society looked the other way. Because a man’s home was his castle and what he did therein was nobody else’s business.

    Also, I present Exhibit A:
    That time Paige Patterson presented wife beating as a tool of evangelism back in the year 2000 at the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. And the good old boys club did nothing.

    They can’t get away with those kind of shenanigans anymore and they’re as mad as bees in a hornet’s nest.

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  132. Darlene: Ah, but there is logic in it, in the Calvinist mine that is. They believe that God uses *means* to accomplish His will. And they are the means that God will use to restore the gospel.

    That’s what Uzzah thought when he reached out to steady the Ark. Poor helpless God was going to fall over if he didn’t hold him up.

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  133. From the article:

    We believe that the biblical faith is inherently doctrinal

    And I believe that these people are missing something. Some part of personality or awareness or something. They are void of a certain aspect of life. The sum total of their contribution seems to be: let’s codify all these words on a page into rules and force everyone to follow them. And they are so out of touch with reality to think that this would somehow make the world a better place. Not only that, this goal leads them to commit deception and to destroy those who get in their way. And they are blind to the reality of what that means about them! How do people get like this?

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  134. Jeannette Altes: Apparently, dishonesty is perfectly ‘biblical’ if it’s in the service of the ‘biblical’ agenda. How much further from Christ can you get?

    Brings to mind the passage in Hebrews, “But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.” If they are getting away with dishonesty…

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  135. Friend: The empowerment of men is the Founders’ universal wrench. Men don’t have nearly enough influence in the SBC.

    Right. And despite having a firm grasp on all the power for all this time, they have failed to use it to bring about good. Why aren’t they the ones putting an end to sexual and other kinds of abuse? Why has all this happened on their watch? All they do is worry and fret that they’re going to lose their power.

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  136. Guest: If Christianity is so great then why do so many Christian men hate women and hate raped children so much?

    “And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.”

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  137. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Second, and again, people are going to disagree with me, Martin is telling his hearers NOT to feel guilty when people of color talk about reparations. That’s what the whole “you’ve been forgiven” stuff is about. It’s not about your personal sin, it’s about the sins of society. To be blunt, America was, IMHO, founded upon two original sins: the near-extermination of the American Indians and the taking of their lands and the slave trade. In neither case, again IMHO, have either group been made whole.

    Okay. I see. This makes complete sense.

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  138. JD Hall: This is article is very wrong on some very important matters. Dee and the ladies need to call me if they want to understand a topic related to the SBC before they write about it. I would be happy to help, so at least the facts are right about a subject.

    Go blow your nose.

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  139. mot: Your concern for my well being touches me deeply. You made my day! I do need to decompress-especially from the last almost 20 years of having made my self available to serve in SBC churches. It has adversely affected my health on multiple levels.

    I am so sorry, I can’t imagine. It’s their loss, in my opinion. I’m sure it will take time to process all of this. I don’t even know what to say but just that I wish you and your family well.

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  140. SiteSeer: I am so sorry, I can’t imagine. It’s their loss, in my opinion. I’m sure it will take time to process all of this. I don’t even know what to say but just that I wish you and your family well.

    Thank you SiteSeer. This means a lot to me!

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  141. The Calvinist have corrupted God’s words throughout history. They, like John Calvin, have turned them into a lie. Jesus’ gospel essence is found in John 3:16. However, the Calvinist ‘gospel’ is found in a corruption of Romans 8:29-30; a corruption of Jesus’ original intent, and God’s plan for salvation. Upon lengthily examination, the Calvinist gospel is not ‘good news’ in any way, shape, or form. It’s out-working brings only tyranny. Caution & Avoidance is thereby advised.

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  142. SiteSeer: From the article:

    We believe that the biblical faith is inherently doctrinal

    And I believe that these people are missing something … How do people get like this?

    When church folks put more emphasis on doctrines ‘about’ grace rather than a direct experience ‘of’ Grace, they may have missed an encounter with the living Christ. When they devote their lives to teachings and traditions of mere men, they understand only religious law not spiritual life. When their Christian experience revolves around jots and tittles of Scripture, they fail to make contact with Jesus who is the Word. Their faith is not saving faith if they trust only in doctrines, rather than a personal experience with the Son of God. They are passionate about what they believe, but it is a misplaced passion.

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  143. I have never heard of the “Founders” or any of its leadership.

    There are 2 points I can glean from this post

    1) It is no surprise that these clowns gain traction. With a an old testament focus on law the culture of compliance is so strong that I’m not sure churches are being taken over. It seems to me most (though not all Baptists) believe in this hook, line and sinker. It’s a top down monarchy and a bronze age one at that.

    2) Having the name “Tom” increases your chance of being a Founders leader.

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  144. Law Prof: Can anyone tell me why people drive 60 mph (or even 70mph) in the 70mph fast lane?

    “I drive really slow in the ultra fast lane, while people behind me are going insane…” Dennis Leary. Google the lyrics to this song from his “No Cure for Cancer” routine and you’ll get your answer.

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  145. mot,

    I’m reminded of the Bible story of the blind man who gave his testimony before the church elders about being healed by Jesus. Not understanding spiritual things, those old deacons kicked him out of church but Jesus came looking for him. Thank you for your years of faithfulness to Christian ministry, Mot … Jesus and the Wartburgers love you.

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  146. Max:
    mot,

    I’m reminded of the Bible story of the blind man who gave his testimony before the church elders about being healed by Jesus.Not understanding spiritual things, those old deacons kicked him out of church but Jesus came looking for him.Thank you for your years of faithfulness to Christian ministry, Mot … Jesus and the Wartburgers love you.

    Max, thank you so very much. You and the others have encouraged me these last couple of days. My faith in God is strong. I only want to serve God and I have no conditions for this service. I am not young and not old–early 60’s. I just want to be faithful to the end of this life. God has blessed my life and his Grace towards me I can never begin to understand!

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  147. Ken F (aka Tweed): The problem with that phrase is how non-descriptive it is. It could mean many things, including things that should be opposed and things that should be fought for. Without knowing exactly what the other person means by the phrase it is nearly impossible to have meaningful dialogue.

    This is how language is weaponized, and people are mind controlled. A word or words becomes so affiliated with abuse, ignorance, or anything negative that it effectively becomes a weapon. Take ‘conspiracy’, for example. Does anyone believe that individuals do not frequently conspire with other individuals to obtain desired agendas? Yet the term has been deliberately weaponized so that any serious consideration of individual conspiracies is now nearly impossible for many people.

    Similarly, the words ‘liberal’, ‘social justice’ and others have been granted the ‘bad’ label by conservative, fundagelical leaders, painted with such a broad brush that much of value is cast aside.

    Does anyone living in this modern world believe that all men and women are treated justly, that there are no social classes and that money does not buy one privilege and influence? If you happen to think this is not the way it ought to be, you just might be a proponent of ‘social justice’. That does not necessitate that you meet the deliberately exaggerated caricature that has been created of a social justice warrior.

    IMO, social injustice implicates the power and influence that money wrongly brings in modern society, and the oppression that is so commonly wrought against those who have little money or influence. For some reason, the religious fat cats do not like to be reminded that one of the major tenets of so-called christianity is assisting and bringing hope to the poor and needy.

    I stand with those who stand with the powerless, even if we do not agree on all things. We can agree that all people are equally valuable and have the same rights to the air, water and resources of God’s good earth. No one deserves to feast while others starve, whether an individual or a nation. No nation ‘deserves’ to be ‘great’ while others are declared ‘sh*tholes’. Skin color or nationality do not create classes of people, nor does one’s propensity to hoard more than his share of earthly resources or acquire deadly weapons.

    I do not view this as simply political, although it has been deliberately made such; it is the essence of morality. We who consider ourselves God’s children are called to proclaim this truth: God loves all men equally. None are granted special status, or given the right to lord over others.

    The gospel came crashing into the same sort of socially divided world in which we live today, rejecting the established systems of the ‘chosen ones’ versus the ‘heathen’. (Which is why I reject the reincarnation of this two tier system known as Calvinism.) Jesus was the first social justice warrior, walking with the have-nots and declaring them as valuable as the finely-clad aristocrats. His ‘good news’ was declared to and received mostly by the poor and needy. Not much has changed.

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  148. Nick Bulbeck: “First, true biblical manhood is part of the solution to sexual abuse.”

    This little lie has been propagated long enough. Sexual abuse, or even the much hated feminism, is not the result of too little ‘biblical manhood’, whatever the heck that is. More often than not they are the result of too much biblical manhood.

    What woman wants to be at war with the entire male gender? I mean, maybe there are a few, but I suspect that most people who stand up against patriarchy are not calling for the extinction of men – just the end of male privilege.

    This is the sort of extremism that is fabricated and pushed, sometimes by manufacturing tools to represent the rabid ideologies we are supposed to fear. Yet, even Gloria Steinham ended up getting married – I guess she didn’t hate all men.

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  149. Max: they understand only religious law not spiritual life.

    Many Christians pridefully reject the laws that Jewish people still faithfully follow. Jesus freed us from the old laws, or so the thinking goes. That implies that our New Covenant does not contain laws. So why do folks turn it into a law book?

    People of both Covenants worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Both rely on sacred principles of love, justice, mercy, and so on. Jewish people do not blindly obey; they are also bound to understand and act on the principles behind their laws. Christians do not follow those laws, but we too must hew to principles.

    Any religion can produce people who show off their obedience, as did some Pharisees of Jesus’ day. It takes thought, effort, study, service, and prayer to live a life of faith.

    He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
    —Micah 6:8

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  150. Darlene: Friend:
    “Did you know that even Augustine was a kind of Calvinist?”

    Oh, why stop with Augustine? The Sanhedrin were Calvinists too. Maybe even Cain himself.

    Don’t forget Adam and Eve, and Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

    Don’t you know, God is a Calvinist? Once we embrace his system, we will have heaven on earth. (Apparently heaven on earth means perpetual male suppremacy, among other rankings.)

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  151. SiteSeer: How do people get like this?

    Pride cometh before a fall?

    We the chosen. We the enlightened. We the god-given authorities. Anytime you have a ‘me over you’ mindset you are deceived and become overtaken with pride and all manner of evil.

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  152. Friend: Any religion can produce people who show off their obedience, as did some Pharisees of Jesus’ day.

    Too many folks professing to be Christians are religious, but spiritually destitute. The Christian experience is a spiritual existence … it’s not about religion, but relationship.

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  153. SiteSeer: To be blunt, America was, IMHO, founded upon two original sins: the near-extermination of the American Indians and the taking of their lands and the slave trade. In neither case, again IMHO, have either group been made whole.

    Nor has this false, deadly superiority ever stopped. Who won’t the ‘good guys’ oppress – or worse – in order to protect their own life or ‘rights’? The entire concept of fascist nationalism is anti-Christ, or anti-the one who gave up his life for all.

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  154. TS00: Apparently heaven on earth means perpetual male suppremacy

    I just asked my husband if he wanted male supremacy. He listed about twenty reasons why it’s a bad idea. I’m just gonna take his word for it. 😉

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  155. TS00: Don’t you know, God is a Calvinist?

    An amusing thought is that Jean Calvin, being now (presumably) in the intermediate state, and granting that the intermediate state is a state of conscious awareness, may (as it says in 1 Cor 13) see things more clearly than we do, face to face rather than a reflection in a poor mirror.

    Perhaps Calvin is now a universalist.

    Someday we’ll know.

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  156. Max: When church folks put more emphasis on doctrines ‘about’ grace rather than a direct experience ‘of’ Grace, they may have missed an encounter with the living Christ. When they devote their lives to teachings and traditions of mere men, they understand only religious law not spiritual life. When their Christian experience revolves around jots and tittles of Scripture, they fail to make contact with Jesus who is the Word. Their faith is not saving faith if they trust only in doctrines, rather than a personal experience with the Son of God. They are passionate about what they believe, but it is a misplaced passion.

    This! They are passionate about what they believe (doctrine) rather than about justice, which is what real truth seeks to restore.

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  157. mot: I spent 45 years of my life in the SBC and recently left it. I stayed decades longer than I should. I am currently a “done.”

    What is not often mentioned on TWW is that there are other things wrong with the SBC other than the New Calvinist onslaught within its ranks. Too many “traditional” churches (non-Calvinist) are controlled by deacon boards who were ordained to that office not because they were spiritual men, but because they were popular in the community, prominent business leaders, wealthy, or other such reasons. They just don’t get it, but yet they lead the church and wield an illegitimate authority to send a godly pastor packing at any time. Yep, there’s a lot about SBC that God is not pleased with and has pretty much left the denomination to itself, IMO. Speaking from 70+ years experience in SBC (I’m also a “done” now), I remember better days when the denomination and her churches were serious about the Great Commission … when pastors, deacons, and members humbled themselves, prayed and sought God’s will. Those are rare and endangered species now.

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  158. You see what these people say, and then you look at their lives, and I for one am reminded of a quote by Bishop J.C. Ryle on holiness:
    “Doctrine is useless if it is not accompanied by a holy life. It is worse than useless; it does positive harm. Something of ‘the image of Christ’ must be seen and observed by others in our private life, and habits, and character, and doings.”

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  159. TS00: Don’t you know, God is a Calvinist?

    Only the Calvinist God is Calvinist. Neither is God Baptist, Methodist, or any other ist. The Ancient of Days cannot be contained in any theological box … to attempt to do so, is to stand in arrogance before the Creator.

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  160. Nick Bulbeck: Indeed, being “liberal” doesn’t mean you sacrifice goats to statin.

    “statin”— I love it! Should I get a legal name change? I laughed myself into a coughing fit clicking on Nice Keckbulb’s website link. I’m officially tempting anyone who missed it to do so ASAP. Also JD Hall’s website link, which seems to me to go to http://Pulpit%20&%20Pen. Better than going to my infernal home, As to the real JD’s whereabouts, maybe he’s hiding from scary Armenians under the bed. Please give my regards and a big hell-low to your friend “god”. He and I aren’t exactly on speaking terms at the moment.

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  161. Nick Bulbeck,

    “Indeed, being “liberal” doesn’t mean you sacrifice goats to statin. But it’s a convenient snarl-word, like Rik off The Young Ones (anarchic and somewhat groundbreaking 1980’s UK sitcom) shouting “FASCIST!” at everyone he didn’t like.”
    +++++++++++

    if i remember right, Mike thecoolperson describes Rik as the classic only-child: stereotyped as aggressive, bossy, must have their own way.

    sounds like christian culture to me! 🙂

    😐

    (blimey, the times i’ve been called “liberal” for looking at something from a different angle… is there a word for not feeling the scathing embarrassment that everyone else feels on one’s behalf?)

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  162. mot,

    Law Prof,

    This is a template for control and not for honest discussion. Just shift the responsibility to the other person you disagree with and not give any specifics of the disagreements. Now JD can telling the world, “I try to clear things up but Dee and the ladies did not response to my kindness”.

    You can replace the words and use it for ANYTHING to shift the responsibility.

    “[So and so’s viewpoint/discussion/anything] is very wrong on some very important matters. [So and so] need to call me if they want to understand a topic related to [any subject] before they [do something] about it. I would be happy to help, so at least the facts are right about a subject.”

    Just fill in your own words between [].

    Jun for fun

    “JD, your comment is very wrong on some very important matters. You and other gentlemen at P&P need to call me if they want to understand a topic related to the TWW’s article before you decided to write the comment about it. I would be happy to help, so at least the facts are right about a subject.”

    Ain’t that sweat? No thinking required!
    😛

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  163. TS00: Don’t you know, God is a Calvinist?

    I’ve only just finished reading the Institutes, TBH. I have to say, they were an eye-opener. If only I’d ordained him to live 16 centuries earlier. What was I thinking?

    Best regards,
    God

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  164. TS00: This! They are passionate about what they believe (doctrine) rather than about justice, which is what real truth seeks to restore.

    This reminds me of a discussion I was having recently in a Calvinist Facebook group. Many of the Calvinists were up in arms about Federal Vision, a teaching put forth by Doug Wilson. “It rejects justification by faith alone!” they decried. “It teaches Faith plus works.” they bemoaned.

    Well, I decided to add to the convo. I reminded them that *Federal Vision is the least of Doug Wilson’s problems*. Someone dared to ask what would those problems be. I listed some of the more reprehensible ones:

    *Marrying a pedophile who admitted he would likely sexually abuse children again.
    *Supporting and defending a Seminary student who raped a young girl from the ages of 13-16, then publicly humiliating this female online and calling her a liar. Also blaming her father, rather than the sexual abuser, for what happened to his daughter.
    *Praising Southern chattel slavery as a good and benevolent institution.
    *Denigrating women as inherently inferior, and those who refuse to accept their place as rebellious shrews.
    *Proudly displaying his misogyny and calling it good.

    The response: crickets. You could have heard a pin drop. Instead, they continued arguing about the dangers of Federal Vision.

    Here’s the clincher. one of the administrators saw my comments about Doug Wilson and deduced that I must be mocking Calvinism. I was muted for 3 days from commenting and told to examine my motives for participating on that site.

    They care more about, as HUG would say, *Perfectly Parsed Doctrine* than a person’s actual behavior. Defend a pedophile, support a child rapist, praise the benefits of chattel slavery, denigrate women as shrews for not submitting to his teachings – No Big Deal. But by golly, let’s read about Federal Vision.

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  165. God: I’ve only just finished reading the Institutes, TBH. I have to say, they were an eye-opener. If only I’d ordained him to live 16 centuries earlier. What was I thinking?

    Best regards,
    God

    Dear God,

    Just remember that you are sovereign and preordained John Calvin, before he ever took breath, the time he would be born. Furthermore, you preordained every single solitary word he wrote in his Institutes of the Christian Religion.

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  166. God: I’ve only just finished reading the Institutes, TBH. I have to say, they were an eye-opener. If only I’d ordained him to live 16 centuries earlier. What was I thinking?

    Best regards,
    God

    Dear God,

    Just remember that you are sovereign. It was you that preordained John Calvin, before he ever took breath, the time he would be born. Furthermore, you preordained every single solitary word he wrote in his Institutes of the Christian Religion.

    By the way, are you really a Calvinist? Inquiring minds want to know.

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  167. I know practically every person in the trailer, and a few who helped make it. I have friendly relationships with all of them, and appreciate them, as well.

    I am not a “straight ticket” voter. A person or ministry may have and emphasis, write a book, or address an issue in a way that I like. That same person may have a take that I do not agree with.

    I see a lot of this stemming from the fact that some academics and agency leaders in the SBC noticed all of the “social justice” talk a few years ago, and they have glommed on to it to speak to a new generation.

    I watched a good bit of the MLK50 conference put on a year and a half ago by the TGC and ERLC. IMO, some of it was good. Some of it was awful.

    And I have followed some of the statements from SBC leaders and well known preachers since that conference.

    To give you a flavor, one of Dever’s friends, Thabite Anyabwile, actually tweeted that he was waiting for an apology from every white evangelical for their parents’ and grandparents’ complicity in the murder of MLK.

    Aside from the factual stupidity of that statement, there are significant issues regarding Christian theology. You know, forgiveness and such.

    But anyway, that’s the kind of nonsense that people in the SBC have been treated to over the last couple of years.

    The Founders are pushing back. It’s actually surprising to see them make a film. Usually pushback like this from guys like the Founders doesn’t come so artistically.

    The convention this year featured a bunch of panels etc. on things like racism. The funniest moment was JD Grearr’s first question to panelist Jim Merritt, on whether the SBC has a problem with racism. Merritt’s response, “I think you should ask that question of one of the colored panelists.” I kid you not.

    Merritt was also the person who gave the impassioned speech about the Confederate Flag at the SBC about 3 years ago. As if the Confederate Flag was really an issue.

    So, the SBC has been chasing Confederate Flags and calling each other “racist” just like what’s happening outside the SBC. A lot of the language is the same. The intellectual underpinnings are the same. It’s just that the SBC is trying to put a Christian spin on things.

    My hope is that the SBC will just get back to its main purpose and quit all the posturing about Social Justice, Critical Race Theory, and Intersectionality.

    Until that happens, expect guys like the Founders to kick up a storm. And expect SBC agency heads to try and stamp out any criticism of other agency heads, and expect them to continue to try and do anything that makes them look current, and not really bad guys.

    This was the Founders attempt

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  168. Friend: Moore can explain his own evolving views better than I. Many folks’ views change over time (see: synoptic Gospels and Acts), so I’m not sure that automatically means he is in anyone’s thrall.

    It’s too easy to discredit someone by alleging a connection, however tenuous, to George Soros. By “ten trillion pies” I meant his supposed influence over things that probably do not interest him, such as Baptist infighting. (Further, and I know you do not mean this, some allegations against Soros are horrifyingly anti-Semitic.) I won’t write more directly. It is treading toward politics, and it feels like gotcha.

    Do you believe Russell Moore is a progressive threat to the SBC—based on his views rather than supposed connections?

    Do I believe R Moore is a progressive threat to the SBC?

    No, not at all, that being said I don’t agree with Dr. Moore on some secondary and tertiary issues.
    But on the primary issue of the gospel I agree wholeheartedly with him.

    I’m just saddened by the fact that most of the time now people just talk right past each other, so sad.

    I’m believe a persons religious belief are sacred, do I agree with Muslims or Jews, no but I also believe their beliefs are still sacred.

    Personal disclosure, if you don’t already know, I believe in the inerrancy of scripture.
    I am a complementarian, ( but I do believe women can hold all other offices in the church, including the office of deacon.

    To most ( I would take a wag and say north of 90% ) on this blog, their default setting to me acknowledging this, is that my knuckles drag the ground when I walk, and that I don’t respect women, so be it, I can’t really do anything about that.

    Lastly, I am as far from Calvinism ( new version or old version) as any one you will ever meet.
    But I have a few Calvinist Christians friend I that admire greatly.
    I believe in the liberty of the believers on all secondary and tertiary doctrines, if you hold to a scruple, that I don’t, I will respect your liberty, if you or anyone else refuse to reciprocate, that’s ok, I can handle it

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  169. SoSickOfAbuseEnabling,

    Amen to what you just said. Hate that anyone would reject Jesus, who said it would be better that those who mislead little ones be thrown into the sea with heavy rocks round their necks. Two major themes of Jesus’ ministry seem to me to be: 1). I love you; 2). I hate abuse.

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  170. Benn: I’m just saddened by the fact that most of the time now people just talk right past each other, so sad.

    It seems to me that much of this is due to what I call extreme think, which is a tendency to make all issues binary rather than acknowledging that most issues are better represented by a spectrum. In the example of complementarianism, my Christian training for most of my life groomed me to be complementarian in the CBMW sense. I have been in the process of rejecting that position, but I doubt I will ever get to the point of believing that there are absolutely no general differences between men and women other than plumbing. People on one extreme will call me a mysognist for this, while people on the other extreme will call me a compromising feminist.

    I think another reason for people talking past each other is not defining terms or having different understandings of terms. For example, one could argue that men and women working together in their individual giftings, with no set gender roles, is better then excluding either men or women. In this sense men and women are complimentary. But this is a drastically different meaning of the word from how Founders or CBMW would use it.

    I suppose dialogue would work better if people spent more time trying to understand the other’s perspective before arguing against it. I still which much to learn in this respect.

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  171. Benn,

    Mohler is really close to Merritt.

    I think that a lot of Mohler’s rush to speak to this was not only to not appear to be against his own faculty member, Curtis Woods (analytical tools), but also to help Merritt.

    The “colored people” comment is not in the trailer. But it could have been. Can you imagine.

    Still, in the trailer, Merritt does not come across well at all. But he does come across the way he really is.

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  172. Oracle at Delphi,

    “The funniest moment was JD Grearr’s first question to panelist Jim Merritt, on whether the SBC has a problem with racism. Merritt’s response, “I think you should ask that question of one of the colored panelists.” I kid you not.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    you said funniest

    some felt a stab, a punch to their gut, followed by chewing glass when they heard that.

    at the very least can you qualify your statement somehow?
    ———

    “It’s actually surprising to see them make a film. Usually pushback like this from guys like the Founders doesn’t come so artistically”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    you said artistic-

    well, that’s truly funny.
    .
    .
    i’m kind of blown away by how casual you are, and seemingly unbothered by your friends’ at Founders disgusting shenanigans.

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  173. Ken F (aka Tweed),

    ken, good comment, I have been thinking about some of what you said, is it possible that because people have the anonymity of hiding behind the keyboard and the snarky, rude behavior comes out, or they can pull off the mask and really say what the feel, and be their true, cruel unforgiving self?

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  174. Max: wield an illegitimate authority to send a godly pastor packing at any time.

    If a deacon board has that authority, then the church is NOT a traditional SBC church. Such a board should only have the authority to bring that issue to the church members, but they cannot dismiss a pastor, only the members can.

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  175. Jarrett Edwards: If a deacon board has that authority, then the church is NOT a traditional SBC church. Such a board should only have the authority to bring that issue to the church members, but they cannot dismiss a pastor, only the members can.

    It is true that under congregational polity only church members can hire and fire staff by voting to do so. But, I can tell you from decades of experience in traditional SBC churches (70+ years) that I have personally known deacon boards which forced a pastor’s resignation to avoid a contentious meeting with the congregation. This happened to Pastor Mot, as he commented upstream … and to my own son-in-law last year. Congregations seldom challenge a pastor’s resignation when the deacon board reports to them that it was “voluntary.” It’s a nasty business when good ole boys boot men of God from their pulpits because his preaching was striking too close to home, he desired to move the congregation forward spiritually and the deacons were not spiritual men, or they had another idea about doing church contrary to his leading.

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  176. Elastigirl:

    I usually don’t confront my friends, especially when I have them on both sides of an issue, and I don’t feel either of them has performed well.

    The trailer is within the bounds of debate IMO. I didn’t like that Ms. Denhollander was supposed to be in it, but I never saw that. If she was, and they took her out, that was good. I don’t see Ms. Denhollander being part of this at all, so she shouldn’t be in it.

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  177. Oracle at Delphi: JD Grearr’s first question to panelist Jim Merritt, on whether the SBC has a problem with racism. Merritt’s response, “I think you should ask that question of one of the colored panelists.”

    Well, Brother Merritt should colored himself on that one, didn’t he!

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  178. Here’s something relevant I just saw on social media.

    Matthew Hall, the new Provost at Southern Seminary, wrote an article stating this,

    “The best thing you can do to start is to take a humble posture. Recognizing that you have a racialized worldview of which you are likely unaware. Your beliefs, attitudes, and values have been formed in ways, deeply informed by whiteness.”

    There was a screen shot of this article. I tried to go to it, but the Southern website says it can’t be found.

    Maybe Southern took it down.

    It’s this kind of nonsense that has earned the pushback by the Founders.

    I am more upset by these ridiculous statements than I am films designed to call out people who make them.

    But no, I am not going to call Matthew Hall and confront him either.

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  179. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Second, and again, people are going to disagree with me, Martin is telling his hearers NOT to feel guilty when people of color talk about reparations. That’s what the whole “you’ve been forgiven” stuff is about. It’s not about your personal sin, it’s about the sins of society.

    1) But in a church culture where everything is Personal (even Salvation) and nothing is “society”?

    2) Such “talk about reparations” has been weaponized more than once, homing in on White Guilt. Here in Cali we had a textbook example some years ago: the career of Willie Brown, power behind the throne. That pol played on White Guilt like you wouldn’t believe; his actual district was Bay Area rich whites whom he kept pee-their-pants terrified of being called Racist(TM), and he used them as his base to become the “Boss Tweed of California” for over a decade. It took a Term Limits law (passed by ballot initiative, NOT his legislature) to get him out.

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  180. elastigirl: Oracle at Delphi,

    “The “colored people” comment is not in the trailer. But it could have been. Can you imagine.”

    And now for something completely different:

    Does anyone remember a Flip Wilson comedy album of the Sixties called “Cowboys and Colored People”?

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  181. Benn: I believe in the inerrancy of scripture.
    I am a complementarian, …
    I believe in the liberty of the believers on all secondary and tertiary doctrines, if you hold to a scruple, that I don’t, I will respect your liberty, if you or anyone else refuse to reciprocate, that’s ok, I can handle it

    [To Ken F:] good comment, I have been thinking about some of what you said, is it possible that because people have the anonymity of hiding behind the keyboard and the snarky, rude behavior comes out, or they can pull off the mask and really say what the feel, and be their true, cruel unforgiving self?

    Most of us probably wonder sometimes what people would think if they knew our opinion about X or Y. TWW comments are sometimes challenging, but isn’t that why we come here? I would love to ask neighbors about their bumper magnets; sadly, I fear a friendship would end before we found common ground. Here I can safely discuss and learn. At times I have used that understanding to talk with others.

    I don’t see a lot of people on TWW revealing a “true, cruel unforgiving self.” Do you?

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  182. Oracle at Delphi:
    Here’s something relevant I just saw on social media.

    Matthew Hall, the new Provost at Southern Seminary, wrote an article stating this,

    “The best thing you can do to start is to take a humble posture. Recognizing that you have a racialized worldview of which you are likely unaware. Your beliefs, attitudes, and values have been formed in ways, deeply informed by whiteness.”

    There was a screen shot of this article.I tried to go to it, but the Southern website says it can’t be found.

    Maybe Southern took it down.

    It’s this kind of nonsense that has earned the pushback by the Founders.

    I am more upset by these ridiculous statements than I am films designed to call out people who make them.

    But no, I am not going to call Matthew Hall and confront him either.

    IMO the truth is not welcome at many or all of the SBC seminaries. What are they teaching these young impressionable ministers?

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  183. Max: Well, Brother Merritt should colored himself on that one, didn’t he!

    Wow! I was not familiar with this. Like it or not “colored” has not been acceptable for decades. What is wrong with these people-insensitivity much!

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  184. benn: is it possible that because people have the anonymity of hiding behind the keyboard and the snarky, rude behavior comes out, or they can pull off the mask and really say what the feel, and be their true, cruel unforgiving self?

    I think this is part of it, but it does not explain why non-anonymous people do the same thing. I suspect it boils down to their level of both fear and humility, and their commitment to relationship. If someone is fearful, lacks humility, and does not care about the relationship, why not be a jerk?

    This is why at work I do my best to get to know people. It makes it much more likely that we will be able to work through otherwise impossible disagreements.

    Many people on TWW maintain anonymity without being jerks, so it has to be more than just the part about being anonymous.

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  185. Friend: I don’t see a lot of people on TWW revealing a “true, cruel unforgiving self.” Do you?

    I just now tried to answer Benn on this, but my comment seems to be held up in customs…

    Bottom line, I think there are more factors than just anonymity, as proven by the civil discussions by anonymous people on TWW.

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  186. Friend: Most of us probably wonder sometimes what people would think if they knew our opinion about X or Y. TWW comments are sometimes challenging, but isn’t that why we come here? I would love to ask neighbors about their bumper magnets; sadly, I fear a friendship would end before we found common ground. Here I can safely discuss and learn. At times I have used that understanding to talk with others.

    I don’t see a lot of people on TWW revealing a “true, cruel unforgiving self.” Do you?
    I was not speaking of anyone on TWW specifically, and especially not you, I hope you didn’t take that inference.

    but I do see people that are so passionate about there positions @ TWW that they leave their critical thinking skills behind, and just start emoting……

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  187. Benn: but I do see people that are so passionate about there positions @ TWW that they leave their critical thinking skills behind, and just start emoting……

    Not trying to be snarky, but how much emotions can we include in our comments at TWW? I am a very passionate person and it can easily be seen in my comments. Many of the issues here a very personal for me.

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  188. Oracle at Delphi: “The best thing you can do to start is to take a humble posture. Recognizing that you have a racialized worldview of which you are likely unaware. Your beliefs, attitudes, and values have been formed in ways, deeply informed by whiteness.”

    Sentences 2 and especially 3 could have been written by people with polar opposite viewpoints.

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  189. mot: how much emotions can we include in our comments

    I think the concern is that commenters sometimes criticize each other (vitriol is far more common on other sites). All/most on TWW are fine with getting passionate about violent crime, financial abuse, etc., and church cover-ups thereof.

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  190. mot: Not trying to be snarky, but how much emotions can we include in our comments at TWW?I am a very passionate person and it can easily be seen in my comments.Many of the issues here a very personal for me.

    mot, I enjoyed your reply about the gospel above all the other day
    Please don’t misunderstand my comment about passion, if we can’t get passionate about Christ, we gotta problem
    I love passion, but ( imho) when we get so overwhelmed with passion, everything can become a humane society commercial with Sarah McLaughlin singing in the arms of an angel ( freely admit that one gets me every time)
    Or the Jerry McGuire you’re not gonna make me cry

    And we can ( sometimes make category errors)

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  191. Friend: I think the concern is that commenters sometimes criticize each other (vitriol is far more common on other sites). All/most on TWW are fine with getting passionate about violent crime, financial abuse, etc., and church cover-ups thereof.

    I pray I never use vitriol here. If I do TWW commentators personally call me out. It is never my intent.

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  192. Benn: mot,I enjoyed your reply about the gospel above all the other day
    Please don’t misunderstand my comment about passion, if we can’t get passionate about Christ, we gotta problem
    I love passion, but( imho) when we get so overwhelmed with passion, everything can become a humane society commercial with Sarah McLaughlin singingin the arms of an angel ( freely admit that one gets me every time)
    Or the Jerry McGuire you’re not gonna make me cry

    And we can ( sometimes make category errors)

    Benn: Thanks for the kind response.

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  193. Oracle at Delphi: My hope is that the SBC will just get back to its main purpose and quit all the posturing about Social Justice, Critical Race Theory, and Intersectionality.

    What an interesting comment. I see many have addressed it but i’ve been watching chernobyl…

    The problem is that many people think christianity should, at it’s base, be about treating people well, loving others, trying to make things better. If you disagree, there is going to be conflict. The founders seem to think making a bunch of ticky points about doctrine is the most important thing they could possibly do, but they go even further by being downright OFFENDED that anyone might point out the repercussion of things like racism, sexism and abuse. If they cared enough to listen to people other than themselves, they might come out in a different spot but they clearly don’t. This is where their priority lies.

    The priority of others is different.

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  194. Benn: To most ( I would take a wag and say north of 90% ) on this blog, their default setting to me acknowledging this, is that my knuckles drag the ground when I walk, and that I don’t respect women, so be it, I can’t really do anything about that.

    Sigh. Benn, I think most people on this blog simply want you to look more deeply at this issue, realize that you flat out most likely are missing the true implications of these systems and beliefs on women, and hopefully if you have a good heart and good understanding you will change your mind.

    So, yes, you *can* do something about it. You can listen and think and seek to understand and hopefully empathize. That is all any of us can do.

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  195. Lea: What an interesting comment. I see many have addressed it but i’ve been watching chernobyl…

    The problem is that many people think christianity should, at it’s base, be about treating people well, loving others, trying to make things better. If you disagree, there is going to be conflict. The founders seem to think making a bunch of ticky points about doctrine is the most important thing they could possibly do, but they go even further by being downright OFFENDED that anyone might point out the repercussion of things like racism, sexism and abuse. If they cared enough to listen to people other than themselves, they might come outin a different spot but they clearly don’t. This is where their priority lies.

    The priority of others is different.

    Do the SBC leaders know what its main focus is or is it just one big Echo chamber? The SBC rolls have been thinned by millions–all the “liberals” like me gone, and that does not seem to concern them IMO.

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  196. Ken F (aka Tweed): It seems to me that much of this is due to what I call extreme think, which is a tendency to make all issues binary rather than acknowledging that most issues are better represented by a spectrum.

    Some things are absolutely binary. My basic humanity and equality is not up for debate. I would think people of other races would feel the same. It is *very easy* to take stances on issues that will never affect your own choices or life. Maybe people should stop doing that, when they are affecting others.

    I have sympathy for people who grew up with misogynist views of women as less, goodness we are socialized into it! It is time to grow away from them though. Most ‘women are different in more plumbing’ folks are effectively limiting women and I’m pretty binary about that issue.

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  197. Lea: Some things are absolutely binary. My basic humanity and equality is not up for debate. I would think people of other races would feel the same. It is *very easy* to take stances on issues that will never affect your own choices or life. Maybe people should stop doing that, when they are affecting others.

    I have sympathy for people who grew up with misogynist views of women as less, goodness we are socialized into it! It is time to grow away from them though.Most ‘women are different in more plumbing’ folks are effectively limiting women and I’m pretty binary about that issue.

    Lea, I could be wrong about the SBC leaders view of women–but IMO they are against women using their spiritual gifts unless it meets with “their approval”. No wiggle room there at all.

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  198. Benn: but I do see people that are so passionate about there positions @ TWW that they leave their critical thinking skills behind, and just start emoting……

    Emotion is not a bad thing, nor does it require someone to stop ‘critical thinking’. Maybe you should think critically about why you would dismiss comments from people who are passionate? They might have more knowledge than you about a topic, and more experience.

    There is a reason that we have so many stories of dystopian futures run by robots. Pure logic (as if that is even possible for humans!) untempered by things like compassion and empathy is not a good thing.

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  199. Lea: Sigh. Benn, I think most people on this blog simply want you to look more deeply at this issue, realize that you flat out most likely are missing the true implications of these systems and beliefs on women, and hopefully if you have a good heart and good understanding you will change your mind.

    So, yes, you *can* do something about it. You can listen and think and seek to understand and hopefully empathize. That is all any of us can do.

    So is it a either or scenario, if you’re a complementarian you can’t have a good heart.
    And after looking, if anyone doesn’t cross over to the egalitarian side, then they haven’t looked deeply enough?

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  200. Oracle at Delphi,

    ““The best thing you can do to start is to take a humble posture. Recognizing that you have a racialized worldview of which you are likely unaware. Your beliefs, attitudes, and values have been formed in ways, deeply informed by whiteness.”

    ….I am more upset by these ridiculous statements than I am films designed to call out people who make them.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    i am curious to understand better why this upsets you.

    it is simply true that privileges automatically happen when one has light / lighter skin, and even light / lighter hair.

    i fit that description. i consider myself to have a fairly sensitive radar… but i have missed much as far as awareness goes.

    i have many friends and acquaintances from a variety of ethnic backgrounds, many of African descent and expats from African nations. Over a few decades my friendships have shown me the extent of how much i didn’t realize (a work in progress) about what it’s like for them, & then considering what it’s like for me. i’ve been painfully surprised at how much i’ve missed. (i’m sure i’ll continue to be)

    the only hat i’m wearing is one of honesty and transparency. nothing more.

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  201. Headless Unicorn Guy: Does anyone remember a Flip Wilson comedy album of the Sixties called “Cowboys and Colored People”?

    Sure do.
    Anybody remember Garrett Morris (African American comedian) from old SNL (late 70s)?
    He did a biting satire of a comedy routine called Black Focus on old SNL.

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  202. benn,

    “is it possible that because people have the anonymity of hiding behind the keyboard and the snarky, rude behavior comes out, or they can pull off the mask and really say what the feel, and be their true, cruel unforgiving self?”
    ++++++++++++

    is it possible that what one person interprets as snarky, rude, cruel & unforgiving is simply someone speaking plainly, directly, and honestly, without veneers of sweetness?

    what is rude in Memphis is polite in Queens. what is a polite suggestion in Moscow might feel like an unnecessarily abrasive attack in California.

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  203. Oracle at Delphi,

    “I usually don’t confront my friends, especially when I have them on both sides of an issue, and I don’t feel either of them has performed well.”
    ++++++++++

    why not?

    yellow alert, yellow alert: i’m about to make a few direct statements, with no snark intended:

    people outside the christian community marvel at how christians tolerate and enable egregious if not criminal behavior amongst their own.

    what’s wrong is wrong. why be silent about one’s convictions?

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  204. Benn,

    “So is it a either or scenario, if you’re a complementarian you can’t have a good heart.
    And after looking, if anyone doesn’t cross over to the egalitarian side, then they haven’t looked deeply enough?”
    ++++++++++

    i think you have a very good heart. one that is kind & sincere.

    if complementarian effectively means restricting a human being’s freedoms and opportunities solely because of their DNA, my view is that a person who continues to affirm such a belief chooses to side with principle over people. which can be done with kindness and sincerity.

    yet cute shackles are still shackles, and there are painful consequences for others well beyond the happy home such a complementarian may have helped cultivate for his family. i can’t help but be perplexed that this doesn’t bother this person.

    I imagine you can understand this ‘perplexity’.

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  205. “complementarian you can’t have a good heart.”

    If you think or want a woman to be submissive to you. And if you think you should be the boss of her and are more deserving than her; then you do not have a heart at all.

    It is super easy for a man to declare himself comp. He does not have to be the degraded slave. He is the one getting elevated just because he was born with God’s favorite genitals.

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  206. Lea,

    Yes. Antifa and all those other armed groups that riot in the streets for Social Justice are all about a better world.

    Critical Race Theory and Intersectionality are not about bringing peace and harmony.

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  207. elastigirl,

    You would need a working knowledge of the history of Critical Race Theory and Intersectionality in an academic sense and how it has been used by liberation theology to understand why I disagree with it. I am orthodox doctrinally.

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  208. Benn: So is it a either or scenario, if you’re a complementarian you can’t have a good heart.
    And after looking, if anyone doesn’t cross over to the egalitarian side, then they haven’t looked deeply enough?

    I don’t think you’ve understood me. IF you have a good heart I hope you one day see it differently. That is my perspective.

    I think if you are a man, and I understand that you are, you should be aggressively conscious of the fact that you yourself will never feel the negative affects that women feel in these systems. You should think and listen and try to see what others feel. You should do these things whether you change your mind or not, because they are the right things to do.

    But yes, I think if you are limiting the behavior of people who are not you that is a problem.

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  209. elastigirl: is it possible that what one person interprets as snarky, rude, cruel & unforgiving is simply someone speaking plainly, directly, and honestly, without veneers of sweetness?

    Not for nothing, but clear and direct from women is often interpreted as harsh.

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  210. When I read Founders articles and comments on the doctrine of “sufficiency of scripture”, I always experience cognitive dissonance. It seems they are attempting to nuance it in ways that I can’t quite follow how their applications follow. Has anyone else experienced this? Examples?

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  211. To Oracle, Were we speaking of antifa or christianity?

    You have lumped an idea in with people who you think are worst representation of an idea and you have done that to dismiss the concept entirely. Maybe think about that.

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  212. Some clarification on the trailer:

    1. Defenders on social media are saying to wait and see the final product before passing judgement. What they do not account for is the inconvenience they have caused many people who have had to put down what they were doing to address the misrepresentations. For this, they owe an apology and to honor the requests to take down pictures suggesting support for the project.

    2. It is not there just to drum up interest. There is a link on the page to contribute to the project. If there is misdirection in the trailer (as supporters have suggested) and those that appear to be cast in a bad light are actually going to be vindicated in the final production, then they are raising funds under a false premise.

    3. It is still out there. Someone said on another site that it was gone. It is not.

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  213. FW Rez: When I read Founders articles and comments on the doctrine of “sufficiency of scripture”, I always experience cognitive dissonance.

    Most things written by hyper-Calvinists causes a true believer to have mental discomfort and psychological stress. It’s your spiritual defense – a check in the spirit – in which the mind of Christ within you clashes against contradictory beliefs trying to take you off-course.

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  214. Lea: If they cared enough to listen to people other than themselves, they might come out in a different spot but they clearly don’t.

    The Founders believe they have a corner on the truth and, unless you are one of them, you have nothing to offer and are not worthy to listen to. They are on a mission to recover the gospel which you have lost and can’t be diverted from that endeavor by entertaining the words of apostates and reprobates.

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  215. FW Rez: Drove past a church yesterday named “Five Points” and just cringed.

    At least they aren’t being deceptive about it, like these New Calvinists who conceal their identity under cool church names! I might not agree with the theology at “Five Points” church, but appreciate their integrity to paint who they are on their sign out front. You will always know who I am.

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  216. Add to this mess the overwhelming evangelical support of Trump, and it appears that Michael (internetmonk) Spencer’s prediction of the collapse of American evangelicalism is happening right before our eyes.

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  217. elastigirl:
    Benn,

    “So is it a either or scenario, if you’re a complementarian you can’t have a good heart.
    And after looking, if anyone doesn’t cross over to the egalitarian side, then they haven’t looked deeply enough?”
    ++++++++++

    i think you have a very good heart.one that is kind & sincere.

    if complementarian effectively means restricting a human being’s freedoms and opportunities solely because of their DNA, my view is that a person who continues to affirm such a belief chooses to side with principle over people.which can be done with kindness and sincerity.

    yet cute shackles are still shackles, and there are painful consequences for others well beyond the happy home such a complementarian may have helped cultivate for his family.i can’t help but be perplexed that this doesn’t bother this person.

    I imagine you can understand this ‘perplexity’.

    Yes it is a perplex and complicated topic/ issue

    I also believe ( and I am speaking in broad terms) that women hav e done a vastly superior job at being women than men have at being men, regardless of the view anyone has as to how men got on the top of the heap, if you hold to a biblical world view that put men at the top due to Eve, or if you put men on top of the heap because they are physically stronger and dominate women solely because they can.

    If anyone doesn’t hold to the sufficiency of scripture, or more conservatively to the inerrancy of scripture, I also can see how they wouldn’t understand how hard it is to change to a view that good, decent people hold to.
    And I don’t see that condescendingly,

    I believe with all things being equal, patriarchy being what it is, if everything else being the same EXCEPT that men were still in charge but they carried the baby and gave birth, abortion would be legal, and abortion clinics were on every corner like dry cleaners, and conservative men would have no problem at all making that decision.

    I can’t know and feel what women have gone through and had to deal with, any man that says he can, is trying to suck up to women ( IMHO) anyway.

    But egalitarian’s and people that don’t hold to a inerrancy of scripture, I don’t think fully understand how hard it is to go against what APPEARS to be a clear direct dictate from God.

    Yes,this is a very perplexing issue, all I’m saying is have honest heartfelt dialogue, and both sides stop painting the other side with an industrial size broad brush

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  218. drstevej,

    Texas backroads, nothing else around labeled five point so it does not appear to be geographical. Based on a brief glance at their website, I would doubt that they are referring to TULIP. What Calvin respecting congregation would have a woman as the worship pastor? (Now removing tongue from cheek).

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  219. FW Rez: It is not there just to drum up interest. There is a link on the page to contribute to the project.

    I saw a shrill appeal for people to watch the trailer, with a claim that the film might be banned.

    Some supporters of the film are jubilant that people are pushing back against it. Everyone who complains proves their point and adds a name to the list of people who are trying to destroy the SBC.

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  220. Friend: I saw a shrill appeal for people to watch the trailer, with a claim that the film might be banned.

    Some supporters of the film are jubilant that people are pushing back against it. Everyone who complains proves their point and adds a name to the list of people who are trying to destroy the SBC.

    I’ve seen this “movie” before with the FUNDAMENTALIST TAKEOVER of the SBC. It is truly sad.

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  221. Benn:
    If anyone doesn’t hold to the sufficiency of scripture, or more conservatively to the inerrancy of scripture, I also can see how they wouldn’t understand how hard it is to change to a view that good, decent people hold to.[snip]But egalitarian’s and people that don’t hold to a inerrancy of scripture

    ‘Inerrancy’ has become a word used to insist on one’s own interpretation, imo. People wield it as a club. Makes it difficult to look at things with any perspective, if you think using perspective is against the rules. I see you have linked egalitarians with people who ‘don’t hold to inerrancy’ which is typical, but also instructive of worldview.

    No one can believe differently and also believe in the right thing (inerrancy). It’s fascinating to see people make these linkages when all they really do is limit the things you’re allowed to consider.

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  222. Benn: I don’t think fully understand how hard it is to go against what APPEARS to be a clear direct dictate from God.

    I think you are approaching this from the perspective that people have not already considered it all. Many if not most of us started from the conservative viewpoint on this, and subsequently rejected it. So maybe we know EXACTLY how hard it is. We just happen to think it’s worth it.

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  223. mot: I’ve seen this “movie” before with the FUNDAMENTALIST TAKEOVER of the SBC.

    I suspect the Founders’ documentary is intended, in part, as a marketing tool to add to their directory of Founders-Friendly SBC churches. Such hard preaching against things like women in ministry will catch the attention of the extreme fundamentalist camp within SBC which is looking for a home amidst SBC’s current struggle for a new identity. They might not even be Calvinist in their theological leaning (yet), but like this new attack on the culture. The SBC is a mess and near implosion, too many factions to survive much longer.

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  224. Lea: ‘Inerrancy’ has become a word used to insist on one’s own interpretation, imo. People wield it as a club.

    Yes, what they really mean is that if you don’t accept their interpretation of Scripture as inerrant, you are errant.

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  225. Lea: I think you are approaching this from the perspective that people have not already considered it all. Many if not most of us started from the conservative viewpoint on this, and subsequently rejected it. So maybe we know EXACTLY how hard it is. We just happen to think it’s worth it.

    I understand that, so to rephrase, to people who still hold to inerrancy, i understand most on here have for various reasons walked away from inerrancy, ( the cosmological argument etc,) and I respect people’s views.

    I have desired to make sure I fully can understand the Bible to best of my ability, even to the point of starting to learn koine Greek, so whatever inerrancy train stop you or anyone else got off at, I won’t criticize you for, that is a freely held choice you have made, and I don’t think any less of you for going that direction.

    And I guess you are correct in saying a lot of people try to clobber people that don’t hold to inerrancy
    There is no need in that

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  226. Benn: I believe in the inerrancy of scripture.
    I am a complementarian, ( but I do believe women can hold all other offices in the church, including the office of deacon.

    Because of the era in which they grew up, elders in my family had what might now be labeled a complementarian marriage. They also revered Scripture.

    He was a quiet, whimsical man with a war wound. She had robust health and an assertive personality. In today’s comp churches, the rigid roles imposed on men AND women would have pulverized his stoical, soft-spoken masculinity as well as her peppery, colorful femininity. Propping him up as head of the home, especially by sidelining her, would have called his performance into question.

    They held traditional beliefs about the Bible, but their conservative church did not have a Matthew 18 process, purity culture, dress codes, tropes about the Proverbs 31 woman, and covenants signed on paper.

    If adults are happy with beliefs about inerrancy and complementarianism, that’s fine—but the church should let people have their God-given freedom in Christ. The problem is the invasion of the home, the marriage, and the mind.

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  227. Augustine is linked to Calvin because Calvin quotes him more than anybody. Calvin’s theologian is Augustine, and is from whom Calvin developed many of ideas, e.g., what has become known as the Calvinistic view of predestination, election, determinism, etc.

    The question is: Where did Augustine get his ideas for Calvin to draw upon?

    That answer is found in Augustine’s past, prior to salvation, when he was still a Manichean gnostic. Augustine imported non-Christian philosophical baggage to his understanding of the bible.

    Dr. Ken Wilson, who is also an orthopedic surgeon (with two doctorates), wrote his PhD dissertation on this subject. You can listen to him talk about this subject here – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnOMORGM2Qw

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  228. Oracle at Delphi:
    Here’s something relevant I just saw on social media.

    Matthew Hall, the new Provost at Southern Seminary, wrote an article stating this,

    “The best thing you can do to start is to take a humble posture. Recognizing that you have a racialized worldview of which you are likely unaware. Your beliefs, attitudes, and values have been formed in ways, deeply informed by whiteness.”

    There was a screen shot of this article.I tried to go to it, but the Southern website says it can’t be found.

    Maybe Southern took it down.

    It’s this kind of nonsense that has earned the pushback by the Founders.

    I am more upset by these ridiculous statements than I am films designed to call out people who make them.

    But no, I am not going to call Matthew Hall and confront him either.

    This also from social media.

    The above quote from the young Provost at Southern along with some of his other articles and videos has been scrubbed by Southern from their website.

    Also reported, Danny Akin at Southeastern Seminary has scrubbed a good deal of content from the Kingdom Diversity page, including discussions about black liberation theologian James Cone and articles about Critical Race Theory.

    What does this remind you of?

    The scrubbing of affiliations and praises of CJ Mahaney.

    Same response.

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  229. elastigirl: yet cute shackles are still shackles, and there are painful consequences for others well beyond the happy home such a complementarian may have helped cultivate for his family. i can’t help but be perplexed that this doesn’t bother this person.

    I am convinced that a benevolent tyranny is the cruelest of them all.

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  230. Oracle at Delphi: scrubbed

    Please forgive me for not knowing all of the history and names of people and movements. Are you saying that there never should have been liberation theology content on a seminary site? Are you saying that scrubbing it is an unwise attempt at silencing someone, or disguising affiliations that should be exposed? Do you think the SBC, or its seminaries, should stay completely out of discussions of race? I’m struggling to understand your viewpoint.

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  231. Friend: If adults are happy with beliefs about inerrancy and complementarianism, that’s fine—but the church should let people have their God-given freedom in Christ. The problem is the invasion of the home, the marriage, and the mind.

    I really hate the term “complementarian”. I think that when most of us here see that word, we immediately think of the views contained in the “Danvers Statement”. I wish CBMW had never met to pen that statement. If the roles of women and men are to be debated, I wish we would stick to what is contained in The Bible. It might keep both sides from going off the deep end (such as Piper and the “herchurch” gang in San Francisco).

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  232. Friend: Because of the era in which they grew up, elders in my family had what might now be labeled a complementarian marriage. They also revered Scripture.

    He was a quiet, whimsical man with a war wound. She had robust health and an assertive personality. In today’s comp churches, the rigid roles imposed on men AND women would have pulverized his stoical, soft-spoken masculinity as well as her peppery, colorful femininity. Propping him up as head of the home, especially by sidelining her, would have called his performance into question.

    They held traditional beliefs about the Bible, but their conservative church did not have a Matthew 18 process, purity culture, dress codes, tropes about the Proverbs 31 woman, and covenants signed on paper.

    If adults are happy with beliefs about inerrancy and complementarianism, that’s fine—but the church should let people have their God-given freedom in Christ. The problem is the invasion of the home, the marriage, and the mind.

    Totally agree….
    And don’t mean any disrespect to anyone when I say this…. not you, your parents, or anyone else.

    I think discernment is a lost art, just because I believe ( as of 7/29/2019, as in Congress, I reserve the right to advise and extend my remarks) in male pastors,

    My view of a marriage is not for the church or anyone else to make a moral judgment)

    I would never stay at a church that had contracts, placed demands on members to tow any line

    I believe in the priesthood of the individual believer, and Paul in Romans to cherish the liberty Jesus baught and paid for with his own blood, that all believers have

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  233. FW Rez: When I read Founders articles and comments on the doctrine of “sufficiency of scripture”, I always experience cognitive dissonance.

    So do I (experience cognitive dissonance).

    It’s a doctrine (sufficiency of Scripture) which says in effect that you (generic you) have no need for say, a licensed marriage and family counselor, because the Bible contains any and all instructions regarding the same in strict straight line point to point segments.

    Here’s a link to what a prominent Calvary Chapel apologist has to say on the subject.
    It’s virtually indistinguishable from what Founders would say, and Calvary Chapel is non-reformed in their theology.

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/stewart_don/faq/bible-special/question25-what-is-the-sufficiency-of-scripture.cfm

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  234. Virgil:
    Augustine is linked to Calvin because Calvin quotes him more than anybody. Calvin’s theologian is Augustine, and is from whom Calvin developed many of ideas, e.g., what has become known as the Calvinistic view of predestination, election, determinism, etc.

    The question is: Where did Augustine get his ideas for Calvin to draw upon?

    That answer is found in Augustine’s past, prior to salvation, when he was still a Manichean gnostic. Augustine imported non-Christian philosophical baggage to his understanding of the bible.

    Dr. Ken Wilson, who is also an orthopedic surgeon (with two doctorates), wrote his PhD dissertation on this subject. You can listen to him talk about this subject here – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnOMORGM2Qw

    For the prize!!
    Yes, I believe you are correct. Augustine was the first Calvinist.

    Where he got it, I think is complicated. Thanks for link. I’ll check it out.

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  235. Friend: the church should let people have their God-given freedom in Christ

    This is really at the core of many rifts within Christendom. In Christ, you are free. The Church of the Living God is a free church – there are to be no distinctions among believers by race, class, or gender. Clergy and laity are free in Christ to work together in ministry – there is to be no authoritarian hierarchy of one Christian over another. Believers have a free will in matters of faith. Religion, of various flavors, attempt to put you in bondage with teachings and traditions of men. “If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed (John 8:36) – let no man convince you otherwise by his interpretation of Scripture.

    “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom” (2 Corinthians 3:17). If do not feel free in the church you attend, the Spirit of the Lord is not present.

    “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).

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  236. Apparently this ‘Anti Socal Justice’ scheme was hatched at John MacArthur’s birthday party last year:

    https://founders.org/2018/09/04/the-statement-on-social-justice-and-the-gospel/

    Ascol: “I had the privilege of meeting in the iconic Herb’s House coffee shop in Dallas with 13 other men… [at] the invitation of Josh Buice”

    Some photos from their get-together:

    Josh Buice: “Had a great time with Dr. John MacArthur on his 79th birthday.” https://www.instagram.com/p/Btqc8B9F3bl/

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  237. Max: Augustinists.

    Pronunciation would be an issue. A co-worker with degrees in both philosophy and theology tells me that “Augustine” is pronounced differently when you are discussing philosophy than when you are discussing religion.

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  238. Muff Potter,

    Thanks for the link. Always amazes me that they quote, and I’m referring now to a Founder’s ariticle, II Tim. 3:16 as their proof text as if it was written referring to the canon we now have. By their logic, there is no need for the New Testament, including II Tim, since the “all scripture” was referring to the Old Testament. Disclaimer: I am not challenging the concept of sufficiency of scripture, just the sufficiency of the Founders use and understanding of it.

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  239. Friend,

    God requires that all people should be treated equally regardless of race. That’s what it means to love one’s neighbor.

    Critical Race Theory, Intersectionality, and the modern Social Justice movements are not about that.

    They are Marxist in their inception, and race conscious in their application.

    The seminaries should teach about those movements but in the sense that they are error.

    When professors in the Baptist academy are found to be advancing concepts and ideas that are contrary to scripture, the leaders of those institutions should look into the matter. If the expressions are public, a public statement might be appropriate.

    No one can tell what was intended by simply removing the post.

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  240. FW Rez: By their logic, there is no need for the New Testament, including II Tim, since the “all scripture” was referring to the Old Testament.

    Also, there was no universally accepted NT for the first few hundred years of Christianity. The first complete list was by Athanasius in 367.

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  241. “Always amazes me that they quote, and I’m referring now to a Founder’s ariticle, II Tim. 3:16 as their proof text as if it was written referring to the canon we now have.”

    Yes! I feel like this was not really explained to me as a child and now it raises some interesting questions…

    Shows you how scripture is so often taken out of context to mean things it couldn’t have meant.

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  242. Oracle:

    Race conscious is not necessarily a bad thing. You shouldn’t be blind to when race is a factor. Calling it marxist is an easy way to dismiss it.

    I also think you might want to look at 1. Whether there really is equality in the here and now and 2. the different between equality and equity.

    I know this all ‘lets just treat everyone the same’ thing sounded right at one point to me, but looking at it now I see so many other possibilities. Some people need more help. Some people have been kept back for generations and just treating them ‘the same’ doesn’t help to the fix the fact that they are starting from a different spot. I don’t the bible ever tells us that we shouldn’t help people who need more help! Loving one’s neighbor means listening to them on what they actually need, not just deciding based on what you think they should want.

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  243. Max: Which came first – the chicken or the egg?Augustine or Calvin?Perhaps Calvinists should really be called Augustinists.

    Honestly, my thinking is in flux. But I think determinism is in flux over the centuries as well.

    What was unique was the Synod of Dort, by codifing specific determinations. So in that sense, the chicken came first.

    Here is my honestly held belief of Calvinism origin point.

    ..”And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”.

    Adam accuses God by laying blame on the Sovereignty of God. He accuses the Judge of responsibility for the events of the Tree. He lays the first foundation. Satan will later add to this.

    I’m not aware of any Christian who believes this.

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  244. Max: Yes, what they really mean is that if you don’t accept their interpretation of Scripture as inerrant, you are errant.

    And also “liberal” of which by their many requirements I am definitely a liberal by their standards.

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  245. Oracle at Delphi: God requires that all people should be treated equally regardless of race. …

    Critical Race Theory, Intersectionality, and the modern Social Justice movements are not about that.

    They are Marxist in their inception, and race conscious in their application.

    The seminaries should teach about those movements but in the sense that they are error.

    Those are three different movements and two different characterizations—I’m not sure it’s that simple. Maybe seminaries should study the movements in detail, hold academically rigorous discussions about them, and let seminarians debate whether they are completely in error or have some merit.

    They could ask: What problems, if any, are these movements trying to solve? Is there a better approach? If the movements are bad, or the problems nonexistent, talented seminarians will arrive at good answers.

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  246. Friend,

    What I see a lot of is people taking the worst of a group or movement they disagree with and amplifying it as ‘defining’ that movement. While simultaneously expecting to have their own group defined solely by the people and ideas they think are best, and excusing or no true scotsmaning away the bad. Exhausting.

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  247. mot: a liberal by their standards

    While I consider myself “conservative,” I found the SBC Conservative Resurgence to be one of the saddest things of my Christian experience. Under the guise of a battle between conservatives and liberals over Biblical inerrancy, it’s clear now that the CR was really a Calvinist Resurgence. The Founders and The Mohlerites rejoiced! During the artillery attack, a lot of good Christian folks retreated from SBC ranks. I think of Dr. Russell Dilday, President SWBTS, who called himself a “constructive conservative”, but was labeled as liberal/moderate and sent packing. Many professors at SBTS were ousted based on their perceived stand about the Word of God; women professors particularly felt the heat. It was just a nasty business to treat other Christians that way, which did not have the fingerprints of God on it. The SBC was done at that point, but hasn’t quit yet. Ichabod.

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  248. Whether racism against minorities or white privilege or an income gap between sexes due to bigotry rather than legitimate lifestyle choices are substantial factors in the lives of Americans today is something over which reasonable Christians can disagree. Christians can be on both sides of this issue and still be committed to God’s justice. I don’t think the point of this thread is race-consciousness or gender-consciousness.

    Jesus came to the earth at a time when the Roman Empire was not exactly concerned with the rights of religious minorities, especially when they stirred up trouble for the Empire. At best, they were marginally tolerant, at worst, they could be absolutely brutal. Jesus knew full well that the first several generations of Christians would face beheading, being burned alive and fed to wild animals for public entertainment. What went on with those people was worse than what went on in the Antebellum South, or at least comparable, and far worse than the ugly Jim Crow days. And yet, did Jesus spend His time excoriating the Roman Empire and pleading for social justice? Nope, He had a very different focus. Maybe we should be more like Him and stop trying to fit Him within our pet cause paradigm. Otherwise, we risk being no better than the Founders, who are doing the same thing from a different angle.

    Just my two cents.

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  249. Max: While I consider myself “conservative,” I found the SBC Conservative Resurgence to be one of the saddest things of my Christian experience.Under the guise of a battle between conservatives and liberals over Biblical inerrancy, it’s clear now that the CR was really a Calvinist Resurgence.The Founders and The Mohlerites rejoiced!During the artillery attack, a lot of good Christian folks retreated from SBC ranks.I think of Dr. Russell Dilday, President SWBTS, who called himself a “constructive conservative”, but was labeled as liberal/moderate and sent packing.Many professors at SBTS were ousted based on their perceived stand about the Word of God; women professors particularly felt the heat.It was just a nasty business to treat other Christians that way, which did not have the fingerprints of God on it.The SBC was done at that point, but hasn’t quit yet.Ichabod.

    I agree Ichabod!

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  250. Max: 90+% of Christendom worldwide have not accepted the tenets of reformed theology for the last 500 years.

    I should clarify, I do not know another Christian that holds to my ideas. I would not discribe my thoughts as a conspiracy theory, but definitely a concept that says what we call Calvinism, can be traced through time.

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  251. Max,

    Simply not true Max.
    There are up to 400,000,000 members of “Historical Protestantism” worldwide.
    There are up to 105,000,000 Baptists.
    There are up to 90,000,000 Lutherans.
    There are up to 80,000,000 Methodists.
    There are up to 100,000,000 Reformed/Calvinists.
    (Figures correct @2011)

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  252. Lea: Shows you how scripture is so often taken out of context to mean things it couldn’t have meant.

    It is very concerning how purist some of the Founders and their advocates profess to be about doctrine and scriptural authority but are careless in how they use it. I challenged someone on it last week and they doubled down, which appears to be their pattern.

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  253. Ken F (aka Tweed): I suspect that they are very afraid and in their fear that have latched onto a system that gives them the illusion of control. But it can never alleviate their fear so they keep trying harder and harder because they cannot believe in other alternatives.

    I suspect you have accurately described the elders of our former church.

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  254. Lowlandseer:
    Max,

    Simply not true Max.
    There are up to 400,000,000 members of “Historical Protestantism” worldwide.
    There are up to 105,000,000 Baptists.
    There are up to 90,000,000 Lutherans.
    There are up to 80,000,000 Methodists.
    There are up to 100,000,000 Reformed/Calvinists.
    (Figures correct @2011)

    Not every church that nominally identifies within a reformed denomination is reformed or neocal in the sense that Max means. Surely you know that—of course you know that. I used to be on staff at a church that was Presbyterian, which is at least nominally reformed. There was not one word preached about Calvinism, the Doctrines of Grace, etc. I don’t think anyone at the church was even aware of the debate over it or could’ve identified John Piper or Al Mohler or Mark Dever out of a police lineup.

    Neocalvinists, those who legitimately get into the five points and such, are a very small minority of Christendom, a tiny fraction. Do you honestly think they make up one in four of all Christians?

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  255. Oracle at Delphi: Critical Race Theory, Intersectionality, and the modern Social Justice movements are not about that.

    They are Marxist in their inception

    In what way? These are regular talking points with Founders but they never actually make the connection (that I’ve found). It is an honest question. Thanks.

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  256. Law Prof,

    I think the truth is complicated. My theory is..

    Congregants generaly dont hold much of any doctrinal position.
    Reform is the dominate Protestant camp.
    It is in perpetual struggle to retain, or recover lost power.
    It is subversive.
    Is always political and needs secular alliances.

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  257. FW Rez: In what way? These are regular talking points with Founders but they never actually make the connection (that I’ve found). It is an honest question. Thanks.

    If he gives you biblical verses to substantiate his position, would you accept it..
    And I preface this by saying kudos to FW Rez for asking a meaningful question..

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  258. FW Rez,

    FW Rez:

    Would really enjoy getting all of that info for you, but you really can look most of this up on the internet.

    Social Justice was actually first a Jesuit movement around 1850 or so. In more recent years, it’s become popular nomenclature for more leftist causes.

    Critical Theory, or Critical Race Theory, was a movement associated with the Frankfurt School in Europe in the 1930s-1940s. Marxism did not succeed with the Proletariat ousting the Bourgeois. They hit upon the theory that the reason was that economic structures could not be changed because of the cultural structures. Thus was born what is called “Cultural Marxism.” Instead of Proletariat/Bourgeois, they divided the world up into Oppressed and Oppressor classes. So people are divided up based on ethnicity, national origin, sexuality etc.

    People of color are oppressed. Whites are oppressors. Women are oppressed. Men are oppressors. Homosexuals are oppressed. Heterosexuals are oppressors. Trans gendered are oppressed. Cis gendered are oppressors. And so on.

    Intersectionality exists when a person is in 2 or more of these groups. So a female, Hispanic, transgendered, homosexual is in 4 groups and has lots of intersectionality.

    Purveyors of Social Justice usually measure things not individually. For example, did a black male receive a fair trial.

    Rather, do black males generally suffer oppression in the justice system because it was designed and operated by white oppressors?

    If the answer is “yes”, black males are oppressed by the white justice system, to achieve social justice, fewer black males need to be prosecuted.

    As it relates to Christianity, people who follow social justice and critical race theory or intersectionality believe that the real teaching of the Gospel is to liberate the oppressed groups from their oppression.

    If the church is going to do God’s work, they say, we must work to change society and bring about social justice.

    Liberation theology – first in Latin America, and its later expression in the US in Black liberation theology is the true expression of the Christian faith according to these people. Professor James Cone (RIP) who taught at Columbia University is considered to be the father of Black Liberation Theology in the U.S.

    In the SBC, there are some in the seminaries and elsewhere who are beginning to express an admiration for Liberation Theology and these related movements. They are increasingly critical of religion that is evangelical and didactic.

    That’s all I have time for now. You can look this stuff up. It’s very interesting.

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  259. “Congregants generaly dont hold much of any doctrinal position.<"

    I think they do, Nathan, but it’s a bit of a mixed bag. If I have a church background in charismatic, baptist and reformed churches I have probably settled on some personal theology that includes elements I liked from all of them and I don’t really care if I agree with my church on every nitpicky detail as long as I like them.

    I don’t agree with Law Prof that ‘liberal’ presbyterians or other reformed denoms or even people who aren’t so ticky about it should be excluded from this in the general sense.

    As always, it’s important to separate a general reformed doctrine from these little cliquish groups within, or complementarian folks, or what have you. I think people around often err in taking broad swipes at ‘calvinism’ without realizing that there IS a diversity of thought there. Piper does not equal reformed, no matter how much he would like you to think so.

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  260. Benn: If he gives you biblical verses to substantiate his position, would you accept it..

    If I gave you bible verses to substantiate that women should be treated as equals in every way to men would you accept it?

    If I gave you bible verses to substantiate the position that sex before marriage is totally fine would you accept it?

    If I gave you bible verses saying that Marxism was biblical would you accept it?

    You see where i”m going with this…

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  261. Law Prof: Neocalvinists, those who legitimately get into the five points and such, are a very small minority of Christendom, a tiny fraction.

    Likewise, SBC’s Founders Ministries (“Old” Calvinists) purport about 1,000 Founders-Friendly churches. That would represent 2% of 47,000 SBC-affiliated churches. The “New” Calvinists are certainly adding to reformed ranks within SBC through its church planting program and Mohler’s campaign to Calvinize the denomination through seminary education, but are still a small minority of Southern Baptists. I still contend that true-blue Calvinists, hyper-reformed 5-pointers who believe they alone hold truth, are less than 10% of those who profess to be Christians worldwide. You can find them embedded in most Protestant denominations, but they represent only a small fraction of the 2+ billion Christians on planet earth. In my 70+ years as an evangelical Christian, I have known only a handful. However, there is no question that SBC is trending toward Calvinism as its default belief and practice; thus, I expect their numbers to increase in the next generation.

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  262. drstevej: Truth is not determined by counting noses.

    … nor in adhering to any particular expression of faith. The Holy Spirit alone leads believers to Truth. Judgment Day will sort out those who ‘know’ Truth vs. those who ‘profess’ truth (Matthew 7:21-23).

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  263. Benn: If he gives you biblical verses to substantiate his position, would you accept it..

    I accept the explanations given in the context of this conversation and am appreciative. What many have observed, however, is that Founders begin with rhetoric about CRT, SJ, etc. being Marxist and then conclude that there are no such things as systemic racism or white privilege. They similarly assume that if you are against sexism you are a feminist. It is these corollaries that bother me. I agree with Founders that, for Christians, our identity should be in Christ and not our understanding of our levels of victimology. This, however, does not negate the experiences of oppression, unfairness, and dare I say injustice, that many in our society encounter and that we have a sacred duty to be aware of and minister to. If someone’s understanding of their oppression comes from a Marxist worldview, we have no less of an obligation to seek justice and full equality within our personal relationships, economic opportunities, and institutions.

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  264. drstevej: Was it in downtown Atlanta?

    Five Points is a district of Atlanta, Georgia the primary reference for the downtown area.

    I was wondering the same, if it was geographical rather than doctrinal.

    For some reason, the original comment about Five Points made the old Yogi Berra quote come to mind: “If you come to a fork in the road, take it.”

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  265. Nathan Priddis: Honestly, my thinking is in flux. But I think determinism is in flux over the centuries as well.

    What was unique was the Synod of Dort, by codifing specific determinations. So in that sense, the chicken came first.

    Here is my honestly held belief of Calvinism origin point.

    ..”And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”.

    Adam accuses God by laying blame on the Sovereignty of God. He accuses the Judge of responsibility for the events of the Tree. He lays the first foundation. Satan will later add to this.

    I’m not aware of any Christian who believes this.

    Well, that verse you quoted has always struck me as typical blame-shifting (Adam was definitely an expert blame-shifter, managing to indict both the woman AND his Maker in the same breath—no wonder Cain followed so skillfully in his father’s footsteps). The first recorded attempt at gaslighting, perhaps?

    And comps and purity culture advocates of my acquaintance have been shifting blame ever since.

    Jesus cut right through that false narrative, though you don’t hear about it much in today’s churches.

    For example:

    Modern pharisee: Women’s fashion choices are responsible for men falling victim to lust.

    Jesus: If your right eye causes you to sin…

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  266. refugee: Well, that verse you quoted has always struck me as typical blame-shifting (Adam was definitely an expert blame-shifter, managing to indict both the woman AND his Maker in the same breath—no wonder Cain followed so skillfully in his father’s footsteps). The first recorded attempt at gaslighting, perhaps?

    Indeed. The people who would blame eve and women for all evils are just following Adam’s lead maybe? Funny how I’ve not heard too many sermons about that massive bit of blame shifting and how god wasn’t having it.

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  267. Oracle at Delphi: Matthew Hall, the new Provost at Southern Seminary, wrote an article stating this,

    “The best thing you can do to start is to take a humble posture. Recognizing that you have a racialized worldview of which you are likely unaware. Your beliefs, attitudes, and values have been formed in ways, deeply informed by whiteness.”

    …I am more upset by these ridiculous statements than I am films designed to call out people who make them.

    I used to feel that way when I was younger. I changed my mind when I got better informed as to what people of color live with day in and day out. Most of it, we never see and are blissfully unaware of.

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  268. Brian:
    Guest,

    I to don’t understand why some people will not listen to the children in their pain, taking children seriously.

    They do not care IMO. Instead of spinning it like they spin everything else-just announce to the world “you” do not care about children.

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  269. Lea: Indeed. The people who would blame eve and women for all evils are just following Adam’s lead maybe? Funny how I’ve not heard too many sermons about that massive bit of blame shifting and how god wasn’t having it.

    Can we not get Eve out of the Garden and move all people to the New Testament? BTW Adam could have told Eve no.

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  270. elastigirl: is it possible that what one person interprets as snarky, rude, cruel & unforgiving is simply someone speaking plainly, directly, and honestly, without veneers of sweetness?

    I have noticed on many boards that people tend to read bad intent into a comment when it is critical of something that is important to them. I think it is just human nature. Oftentimes if you look back and read the comment more objectively, you realize that it was not rude, it was just not supportive of what you believe.

    Commenters on this site tend to be amazingly decent to each other.

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  271. Lowlandseer,

    Aren’t you assuming that there have been no Christians outside of Protestantism for the last 500 years? Normally that goes along with believing their have been no real Christians in the period since the early church until the Reformation. Both of those are entirely erroneous beliefs.
    Calvinism was unknown for the church’s first 500 years, Augustine’s belief in determinism was absolutely rejected by his contemporaries, it had a couple of minor & rejected sputters about 1100, & then virtually nothing until Calvin. It is a late & minority doctrine. Had it been ‘biblical’ & important to the first Christians in the way it is to some current proponents it would have been everywhere. It’s simply not there.

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  272. Benn: If anyone doesn’t hold to the sufficiency of scripture, or more conservatively to the inerrancy of scripture, I also can see how they wouldn’t understand how hard it is to change to a view that good, decent people hold to.
    And I don’t see that condescendingly,

    Wayne Grudem opened my eyes to the fallacy of inerrancy of scripture when he easily changed the meaning of Genesis 3:16 to the opposite of what it was saying in order to support his complimentarian position better. How many times have men done that through the ages? I have researched the issue and found out he was certainly not the first. Recently we found out that the Catholic church had hidden away artwork that depicted women leading in the early church.

    Egalitarians absolutely can believe in the inerrancy of the *original* scriptures. It is the filters you read scripture through and how you apply it that makes all the difference.

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  273. Lea: Indeed. The people who would blame eve and women for all evils are just following Adam’s lead maybe? Funny how I’ve not heard too many sermons about that massive bit of blame shifting and how god wasn’t having it.

    Hmm….they seem to miss that Paul put the blame squarely at Adam’s feet:

    “But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.”
    I Corinthians 15:20‭-‬22 NKJV

    And I’ve always wondered which was worse: sinning because of deception (and owning it: “…the serpent deceived me and I ate…”), or sinning because of defiance (and not owning it: “…the woman You gave me…”).

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  274. Oracle at Delphi: If the answer is “yes”, black males are oppressed by the white justice system, to achieve social justice, fewer black males need to be prosecuted.

    That is not the only response if the answer is indeed “yes.”

    Who claims that fewer black men need to be prosecuted? If someone commits a crime, they need to be prosecuted fairly regardless of the cor of their skin. It seems to me that we have statistics regarding the fairness of prosecutions, convictions, and sentences.

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  275. Oracle at Delphi: Critical Race Theory, Intersectionality, and the modern Social Justice movements are not about that.

    They are Marxist in their inception, and race conscious in their application.

    I’m not familiar with these labels nor am I familiar with what the SBC position on them is, but most issues, and particularly race issues, have many facets and cannot be condensed down to a simple binary choice, and on most issues, you will find a strawman on each side that is used by the other to shut the issue down in their favor. There are also going to be extremists and wackos involved on both sides of any issue but they should not be the ones used to represent the issue or to drive policies or decisions.

    People should be treated as equal, I hope we all agree on that. But for generations people of color have not been treated as equal- not by banks and lending institutions, not be realtors, not by law enforcement, not by landlords or other communities. These inequalities have had a pronounced effect that shouldn’t just be brushed aside by a fair and moral person.

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  276. Nathan Priddis: Here is my honestly held belief of Calvinism origin point.

    ..”And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”.

    Adam accuses God by laying blame on the Sovereignty of God. He accuses the Judge of responsibility for the events of the Tree. He lays the first foundation. Satan will later add to this.

    I’m not aware of any Christian who believes this.

    Very perceptive!

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  277. Beakerj: Calvinism was unknown for the church’s first 500 years, Augustine’s belief in determinism was absolutely rejected by his contemporaries, it had a couple of minor & rejected sputters about 1100, & then virtually nothing until Calvin. It is a late & minority doctrine. Had it been ‘biblical’ & important to the first Christians in the way it is to some current proponents it would have been everywhere. It’s simply not there.

    And pretty much the same thing can be said for some other now “essential” beliefs such as penal substitutionary atonement, the eucharist being merely symbolic, and the perpetual virginity of Mary.

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  278. SiteSeer: Wayne Grudem opened my eyes to the fallacy of inerrancy of scripture when he easily changed the meaning of Genesis 3:16 to the opposite of what it was saying in order to support his complimentarian position better. How many times have men done that through the ages? I have researched the issue and found out he was certainly not the first. Recently we found out that the Catholic church had hidden away artwork that depicted women leading in the early church.

    Egalitarians absolutely can believe in the inerrancy of the *original* scriptures. It is the filters you read scripture through and how you apply it that makes all the difference.

    That’s why I am on a journey to learn Greek.
    I’ve read a lot of different schlolars,who take different paths, and it makes it hard to come to a personal belief.
    When we are not sure if/when people have a hidden agenda

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  279. Oracle at Delphi: That’s all I have time for now. You can look this stuff up. It’s very interesting.

    It seems simplistic and politically defined. How does a good and kind person do what is right towards making things fair for every group without falling into one of your bad definitions?

    I don’t know if all of these things are the province of the church but informing people of the qualities of God and Christ, which ought to be the goal of our own character, is. And it should be allowed to bear fruit in each person’s conscience without trying to micromanage that and steer them for political ends.

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  280. Beakerj: Aren’t you assuming that there have been no Christians outside of Protestantism for the last 500 years? Normally that goes along with believing their have been no real Christians in the period since the early church until the Reformation.

    The funny part about this theory of early apostasy shortly after the original disciples died off means the NT was canonized by apostates. What does that do for sola scriptura?

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  281. Oracle at Delphi: Critical Race Theory, Intersectionality, and the modern Social Justice movements are not about that.
    They are Marxist in their inception, and race conscious in their application.

    I encountered several Social Justice Activist types at Azusa Newman Center in the 1980s; they were HEAVILY Marxist-influenced, and the Marxist parts of their syncretism were crowding out the Christian. (This is why Pope John Paul put the hammer down on “Liberation Theology” of the time.)

    I don’t know about today’s, but what I took away from the experience was that Social Justice has its dark side. When the SJW becomes so enamored with The Cause that it overrides who gets hurt by The Cause. (For a pop culture type example, think Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen at and after King’s Landing; I wish the writers on the show hadn’t had the final season screen time slashed by 2/3 so they’d have been able to show what led up to it better.)

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  282. Benn: That’s why I am on a journey to learn Greek.
    I’ve read a lot of different schlolars,who take different paths, and it makes it hard to come to a personal belief.
    When we are not sure if/when people have a hidden agenda

    I applaud your diligence in seeking truth. I know it’s not a simple pursuit but the friends I have who have followed it sure seem to have benefited and I have benefited 2nd hand by what they’ve learned.

    As we’re all in a process of learning and not all things are clear, I try to take an open-minded approach to the different conclusions people draw from the scriptures.

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  283. Oracle at Delphi: Thus was born what is called “Cultural Marxism.”

    Do people call themselves cultural Marxists? These days it is usually an accusation, flung around to discredit, deflect, and alarm. It is too convenient for people to say, “We’d love to stop racism, but all of the groups working against it are cultural Marxists.”

    Humor: It has been said that cultural Marxism is neither. (Sort of like the Holy Roman Empire.)

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  284. Benn: I think discernment is a lost art, just because I believe ( as of 7/29/2019, as in Congress, I reserve the right to advise and extend my remarks) in male pastors,

    My view of a marriage is not for the church or anyone else to make a moral judgment)

    I would never stay at a church that had contracts, placed demands on members to tow any line

    Another beautiful expression of your beliefs. If you’ll forgive some good-natured cheekiness, are you sure you believe in complementarianism and inerrancy? Maybe you just believe in tradition and conservative reading.

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  285. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    “When the SJW becomes so enamored with The Cause that it overrides who gets hurt by The Cause.”
    +++++++++++++

    huh… i thought that was christian culture.

    (coming back in to the comment stream at the bottom. i was sort of hanging on to the conversation, but at some point i flew off, blew off,… i dunno what happened, it’s all a blur.)

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  286. Ken F (aka Tweed): the perpetual virginity of Mary.

    I meant to write, “and the denial of the perpetual virginity of Mary.” Diving into early church history can be an upsetting jouney for protestants because the early church looks much more Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox than it does low-church protestant.

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  287. __

    “Opus Bono Sacerdotii”

    hmmm…

    “For nearly two decades, the group has operated out of a series of unmarked buildings in rural Michigan, providing money, shelter, transport, legal help and other support to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Catholic priests accused of sexual abuse across the country.”

    “…since 2002, Opus Bono has played a little-known role among conservative Catholic groups that portray the abuse scandal as a media and legal feeding frenzy. These groups contend the scandal maligns the priesthood and harms the Catholic faith.”

    https://www.apnews.com/abe2da0da2f648ad89dde483a92d3f19

    – –

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  288. SiteSeer: Very perceptive!

    The story of Eden is not accurately portrayed by orthodox christianity.
    Even the name is not discribed right. I had much Fundamentalist exposure, and there is no way I could have been told Eden meant pleasure.

    Adam is consenting to the death of Eve. Damnation is central to the Five Heads of doctrine.

    Eve is also the mother of all living. The entire race is being condemned and left to die. These are foundational points.

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  289. Ken F (aka Tweed): Founders posted this today concerning that trailer: https://founders.org/2019/07/29/about-that-trailer/

    “The uproar about the trailer further confirms how important this project is … we have taken this stand to avoid, not to encourage, a far greater division that will surely be the inevitable result of the spread of what can only be called a false gospel.” (Tom Ascol)

    The Founders are digging in.

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  290. Ken F (aka Tweed): Founders posted this today concerning that trailer: https://founders.org/2019/07/29/about-that-trailer/

    “Dr. Mohler called me to express his concern. I was surprised since his previous response to the trailer (when I sent it to him 8 days earlier) had been a simple expression of looking forward to seeing the whole film.”

    “Dr. Akin texted his disappointment with the trailer … Dr. Akin texted his disappointment with the trailer … The same is true for Dr. Adam Greenway …”

    The New Calvinist seminary heads take their lead from Dr. Mohler on everything. If he had remained supportive of the documentary, they would have too.

    The Calvinist Resurgence has now taken an ugly turn … the “Old” Calvinists are squaring off against the “New” Calvinists. In the meantime, the Gospel (the real one) is falling in the street.

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  291. Max: “Dr. Akin texted his disappointment with the trailer … Dr. Akin texted his disappointment with the trailer … The same is true for Dr. Adam Greenway …”

    I meant to say:

    “Dr. Akin texted his disappointment with the trailer … The same is true for Dr. Adam Greenway … I heard concern expressed by Dr. Jason Allen” (these are SBC seminary presidents, in addition to Dr. Mohler). Together, they control New Calvinist indoctrination at SBC’s leading seminaries.

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  292. Oracle at Delphi:

    Yes. Antifa and all those other armed groups that riot in the streets for Social Justice are all about a better world.

    Critical Race Theory and Intersectionality are not about bringing peace and harmony.

    *tartly* I would just point out that Antifa has killed nobody. On the other hand, a white supremacist killed four people and injured many more at the Gilroy Garlic Festival. He posted an well-known racist screed approximately 100 years old on his Instagram account. And he is only the last in a series of men who have killed or attempted to kill people based on their racist beliefs.

    As for Critical Race Theory and intersectionality, they’re not designed to bring about peace and harmony. They are concepts. I would strongly suggest that you educate yourself beyond the rhetoric you’ve been fed by overheated rhetoric that equates Critical Race Theory and intersectionality with Marxism. *headdesk*

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  293. Max: “The uproar about the trailer further confirms how important this project is … we have taken this stand to avoid, not to encourage, a far greater division that will surely be the inevitable result of the spread of what can only be called a false gospel.” (Tom Ascol)

    The Founders are digging in.

    It would be silly, if they were not serious.

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  294. Oracle at Delphi: You would need a working knowledge of the history of Critical Race Theory and Intersectionality in an academic sense and how it has been used by liberation theology to understand why I disagree with it. I am orthodox doctrinally.

    *sigh* It’s obvious you know nothing about Critical Race Theory. It was first proposed, not as a theology, but by law school professors when I was in law school over three decades ago. For the record, this is NOT something I learned about in law school, because we had to be taught to pass the bar exam. Rather, this was something written about and discussed in law journals. It is NOT a theology.

    The reason Critical Race Theory arose in the law school community is because of reflections that white supremacy and racial power are maintained over time, and the law may play a role in that. I would just drop the very, very stinky example of the Jim Crow laws as a starting point for understanding Critical Race Theory.

    I would strongly suggest that you go to some unbiased sources for information about Critical Race Theory instead of listening to Founders Ministries and their fellow travelers.

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  295. Max,

    One is tempted to think that the questionable edits were intentional for the same of generating the “uproar” that has been generated. Media attention, even unfavorable attention, can be beneficial, depending on what one is trying to accomplish.

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  296. Ken F (aka Tweed): That sentence might also work in reverse: “It would be serious, if they were not silly.”

    I agree-excellent observation on your part. The SBC has been at war since around 1979. They ran everyone off in leadership positions IMO who wanted to make the main focus being spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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  297. FW Rez: Thank you. One of the problems I have with looking up for myself is that the descriptions quickly start using terms I’m not familiar with (tried to look up some info on Social Security and had the same issue), so your thumbnail here is very helpful.

    I would be careful of anything Oracle at Delphi says. He does not correctly state the origins of Critical Race Theory, which comes out of American law schools in the 1980s, not in Frankfurt.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory

    If Oracle can’t get CRT’s origins right, the rest of it is likely inaccurate. *scowl*

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  298. Headless Unicorn Guy: 1) Displacement Behavior. When everything around you spirals out of control, find something you CAN control and micromanage it to death. “ME IN CONTROL! SEE? SEE? SEE?”
    2) Sunk Cost Fallacy. If it doesn’t work, Double Down and SCREAM LOUDER! LOUDER! LOUDER!

    1) Exactly. They are not in control of anything, so let’s make something up that we are in control of. So sad.

    2) Yes. I call it the ‘psychology of previous investment’, but it’s the same thing. We’ve probably all experienced in our own lives at one time or another, to some degree. Most people realize sooner or later that it’s time to give it up. One definition of ‘insanity’ is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different and desired result.

    But these guys are not going to admit to any mistakes whatsoever. Because that would mess up what they’re going for in point 1).

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  299. JD Hall:
    This is article is very wrong on some very important matters. Dee and the ladies need to call me if they want to understand a topic related to the SBC before they write about it. I would be happy to help, so at least the facts are right about a subject.

    How about telling us where they are wrong, all-knowing one?

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  300. Samuel Conner: One is tempted to think that the questionable edits were intentional for the same of generating the “uproar” that has been generated.

    This is a line in the sand between SBC’s two Calvinist factions … Ascol representing the old guard; Mohler representing the new and improved reformers. Ascol simply doesn’t like Mohler’s sidekick Russell Moore and his wavering on women in ministry and social agenda, while Mohler backs Moore. I expect the uproar to get louder in the days ahead. There is no use at this point for Ascol to seek the SBC throne; Mohler is superglued to it. At best, Ascol will drag a few more like-minded hyper-fundamentalist 5-point women-despisers into his camp … while Mohler happily skips forward with his young army of Mohlerites to Calvinize the SBC.

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  301. mot: The SBC has been at war since around 1979.

    I spent 70+ years in the SBC (I’m old, I can’t remember why). Southern Baptists have always been wrangling with each other about something. I’ve heard them fussing about the color of the carpet and the color of the preacher. Due to their perpetual contention, the SBC forfeited its denominational gifting of evangelism a long time ago.

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  302. SiteSeer,

    I agree that in the history of most civilizations, there has been discrimination on the basis of race.

    But I believe discrimination on the basis of race is morally wrong, even if it is used to try and correct discrimination that occurred in the past.

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  303. Ken F (aka Tweed): Also, there was no universally accepted NT for the first few hundred years of Christianity. The first complete list was by Athanasius in 367.

    Amen! And the Canon was not established until the Councils of Carthage and Hippo, also in the late fourth century.

    Some books (e.g., Revelation / Apocalypse) were still disputed at the time of Eusebius.

    Can you imagine what contemporary evangelicalism would be like without the Book of Revelation?

    LOL! The mind boggles!

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  304. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Dee:

    You apparently did not even read the article you cite.

    It says, “In sociology and political philosophy the term ‘Critical Theory’ describes the Western Marxist Philosophy of the Frankfurt School, which was developed in Germany in the 1930s.”

    It’s one thing for you to claim I was wrong, but it’s another thing entirely to cite an article claiming I am wrong when the article supports what I said.

    It’s a good article. I would encourage everyone following this discussion to read it.

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  305. For those not in the know..
    ..The Oracle of Delphi is called the Pythia. A Greek prophetess, that channeled spirits.

    The Oracle is associated with ambiguity, and could be thought of as shamanism in modern language. By nature, the Pythia is speaking for another person, not visible to those consulting her. And, also not human.

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  306. Ken P.: https://web.archive.org/web/20180825125651/https://equip.sbts.edu/article/breaking-the-silence/

    Thank you for posting this. I’m not detecting radical content, still less a leftist takeover agenda. It says that “true justice, true reconciliation, true hope can only come through our churches. While there are real sociological, political, and economic factors at play in all of this, there is a fundamental spiritual problem.”

    This item could have been penned by countless Christian writers in recent decades. Marxists and other bogeymen would dismiss it as hopelessly inadequate.

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  307. Jerome,

    Look under Albert Mohler’s tweet about Boyce college. It’s tweeted there and retweeted by lots of folks.

    Do you think a Matthew Hall’s words have been faked or something?

    I mean do you think it’s not real?

    Do you think Hall didn’t say these things?

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  308. Oracle at Delphi:
    Nathan Priddis,

    Thank you Nathan.

    Dee Parsons complimented me when I selected that name.

    Remember all ancient Romans and Greeks sought the counsel of the Oracle at Delphi.

    Not the ones that believed. They joined a different team. It was highly recomended to do so.

    And word is the Pythias died a lot.
    Which is a bummer and big vocational hazard.

    No. I don’t need a consult. There is better material available now.

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  309. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Can you imagine what contemporary evangelicalism would be like without the Book of Revelation?

    Probably a lot saner and less scary.
    If it could even exist in any recognizable form.

    And if I remember right, one of the church councils’ reservations about Revelation was that the book could easily be wildly misinterpreted to the point of madness. (Paging Hal Lindsay… And that “Eagle of the Apocalypse” guy on YouTube…)

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