[Updated] Did James MacDonald Play The Godfather and Attempt to Have His Son-in-Law or Someone Else Murdered? This Is NOT a Joke.

me on the beachDee on the beach

“Christians, instead of arming themselves with swords, extend their hands in prayer.”~ Athanasius of Alexandria (293AD – 373AD)


I had another post planned for today. However, this story is truly historic. I thought I’d arrived at the point when I couldn’t be shocked. I mean really, really shocked. Today’s report by Julie Roys proves that I didn’t know how wrong I was and how bad things have become in the evangelical wilderness.

Roys posted Chicago Radio Host & a Former Bodyguard Say James MacDonald Asked Them to Arrange Murders.

This was followed by The Christian Post: Megachurch founder James MacDonald allegedly sought murder for hire, police investigating which was based on Roys’ post.

Mancow Muller filed a police report on 5/16/19, stating he believes MacDonald is dangerous.

According to Roys, Muller filed a police report  in Willmette, Ill where he lives.

Muller said police are increasing patrols around his house and Muller also has hired private security.

Willamette Deputy Police Chief Pat Collins confirms that an investigation is ongoing.

However, that is all the information he will give at this time. I predict more information will be released in the near future. From Roys’ post:

Collins would not comment on the subject of the investigation. But he said my open-records request for Muller’s police report about MacDonald was denied and that police are not releasing Muller’s report until after the investigation is complete.

Manny Bucur, MacDonald’s former bodyguard, also filed a police report.

This is one bodyguard that will need a bodyguard as well if things continue along this trajectory. Roys reported:

Bucur told me that on Thursday, he also gave a statement about MacDonald to police in Bartlett, Illinois. According to Bucur, Bartlett police called him on Friday and said they had talked to Wilmette police, who confirmed that Wilmette Police are investigating.

Mancow Muller claims that in 2018, MacDonald asked him to find a hitman to murder an unidentified person.

At the time, he believed that this was said in anger and not serious. However, as time progressed, he began to fear that MacDonald was actually serious. Roys stated:

Muller told me he doesn’t know the identity of the person MacDonald allegedly wanted to kill in December. Muller said he got the impression that the person was a rival who was bad-mouthing MacDonald and perhaps “snooping around.” Muller said he definitely didn’t think it was MacDonald’s former son-in-law.

Manny Bucer alleges that in 2015, MacDonald asked him to kill his son-in-law.

However, MacDonald, in an act of sacrifice to show he is willing to get his hands dirty, allegedly offered to help dispose of the body. (Am I actually writing something like this?) Roys reported:

“Manny” Bucur, a deacon at Harvest and former confidant and volunteer bodyguard of MacDonald’s, said MacDonald asked him in 2015 to kill MacDonald’s former son-in-law. Bucur added that MacDonald offered to help him dispose of the body.

Roys also reported that a pastor friend of Muller’s said that Muller told him about MacDonald’s bizarre request in January of this year.

Nathan Murray, an Indiana pastor who says he’s been a friend and spiritual mentor of Muller’s for more than 10 years, said Muller told him in January about MacDonald’s alleged murderous request. Murray said Muller was “freaked out about it”

Bucer said MacDonald was afraid that his daughter’s soon to be ex husband might be posting stuff about her on porn sites.

In 2015, during a trip to the Creation Museum (Do not get Dee started on that subject-Ken Ham and James MacDonald in one post is almost too much for her to handle), Bucer saw MacDonald looking at porn sites on his phone. Roys reported about what transpired. (If this isn’t true, this is the creepiest excuse for viewing porn ever.)

Bucur said he glanced down and saw that MacDonald was on a porn site and asked, “Is that what I think it is? Are you on a porn site?”

Bucur said MacDonald then told Bucur in hushed tones that he feared that his son-in-law, Tony Groves, had posted something damaging to his daughter, Abby MacDonald, online, and that’s why MacDonald was searching porn sites.

… Bucur said MacDonald then asked Bucur if he would be willing to “take Tony out” for MacDonald.

Bucur said he replied, “Are you asking me what I think you’re asking me?”

Bucur said MacDonald said yes and noted that with Bucur’s background (as a combat marine veteran), it shouldn’t be too hard to kill Groves and get away with it. Bucur said MacDonald added that he’d help Bucur dispose of the body and no one would know.

Roys reported that Steve Lupella at HBC confirmed that Bucur spoke to him about this incident a couple of weeks later.

Church employees were allegedly used to spy on Tony Groves who was allegedly cheating on Abby MacDonald Groves.

One employee reported to Roys that allegedly lost his job for refusing to confront Tony Groves, MacDonald’s son-in-law.

According to two former Harvest employees, a year or two before the incident Bucur described, James MacDonald had instructed them to spy on Groves.

I talked to Garrett Higbee and he confirmed that MacDonald gave him instructions to monitor Groves, which Higbee then relayed to Hackl.

…Hackl said shortly before Christmas in either 2013 or 2014, he got a text from Higbee directing him to go to an apartment where Groves might be and to look for a car with a certain make and license plate. Hackl said he went to the apartment, found the vehicle, and then communicated the information to Higbee. Hackle said Higbee told him to remain at the apartment until further instruction.

Hackl said Higbee then directed him to go to the door of the apartment and confront Groves. Hackl said he refused and Higbee backed down.

Hackl said he was fired in late December 2014 and told his position didn’t exist anymore. Hackl said he believes the real reason he was fired was because he refused to spy on Groves.

Roys reported on allegations that James MacDonald often carries firearms with him.

This piece of information is disturbing to me. I have a concealed carry license in North Carolina so I am not opposed to gins guns for protection. (I wanted to keep the word gin in there because I’m considering such sedation.) However, in recent years, we have seen way too many horrifying shooting incidents caused by those with deep seated anger and hatred.

Bucur told me that MacDonald almost always carries a gun in his car.

Mancow MullerIf it becomes available, I will post a link or embed the entire audio at TWW.has posted

Here is the link to the podcast. Good night!

James MacDonald and The Godfather.

Perhaps the most startling segment from The Godfather (at least for me) is how a Micheal Corleone sponsored rampage was juxtapositioned with the baptism of an infant in the church. He was both the child’s godfather and The Godfather of the murders. During the baptism, Michael Corleone was asked to *renounce Satan and all His works,” which he did, all the while knowing that rivals were being killed at his command.

I always wondered how any man could be this blind. Schmoop said it this way

At the end of the movie, Michael is literally becoming the godfather to Connie’s child while also becoming the Godfather to the Corleone family, sealing his position with blood.

There’s a heavy irony in the scene, as Michael stands in church saying that he “renounces Satan and all his works” while a massacre that he ordered progresses in the world outside. It demonstrates the wide chasm between appearance and reality: This churchly dude, renouncing Satan, is actually semi-secretly embracing the world’s evil.

This is the scene of Michael’s final transformation: He’s becoming the thing that he’s been trying to be, the Don, the ruler, and it turns out that this is a pretty violent, pretty awful position to hold. He’s being baptized, in a way, but it’s an evil, anti-spiritual baptism. He’s establishing his new identity through murder.

Sure, he’s developed some worthy traits—he’s cool, competent, and capable of putting business above taking things personally. But those positive traits are put in the service of violence and destruction. Michael is losing his soul, which is, strangely, his triumph.

He’s made a strong effort toward becoming damned, becoming the leader of a criminal empire, and he’s finally made it. There’s something admittedly impressive about him as a villain, since it took so much work.

He’s not just following his impulses like a serial killer: He’s disciplined. A present-day parallel is Walter White’s transformation in the drug kingpin Heisenberg on Breaking Bad.


Comments

[Updated] Did James MacDonald Play The Godfather and Attempt to Have His Son-in-Law or Someone Else Murdered? This Is NOT a Joke. — 163 Comments

  1. No doubt this will be downplayed. We will be told it was said in the heat of anger, and never to be taken serious. I will not pretend to be the judge. But I do hope that everyone who knows of any immoral and/or illegal deeds at Harvest will now come forward and make the truth known.

    Not because we all need some juicy gossip to salivate over, but because an awful lot of people, and an awful lot of money have gone through these hands, and it is time they were made accountable. This man, and his minions, are still hiding a lot of information. It is time everything is exposed to the light and, where appropriate, punished under the law.

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  2. Godfather juxtaposition, indeed. This sad story reveals the deteriorating state of The Church today. Why do we Believers long to follow men? They fail us. God alone is trustworthy. Stockpile His Word.

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  3. Suzie Q: This sad story reveals the deteriorating state of The Church today.

    the church, not The Church.

    Not convinced at this point that JD is part of The Church. It’s not my call to judge his salvation, but I wouldn’t welcome him as a brother.

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  4. As horrific as this last round of information is, I laughed at your expressions. From one concealed carry woman to another, keep the faith despite how outrageous the wolves are proving to be. Hope you are enjoying a break. Things do tend to explode when you vacation…

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  5. A lot of people have been hurt, and as more information about Harvest comes out, will be hurt.

    There hasn’t been much talk about James MacDonald’s family. A wife, two sons and a daughter.

    Kathy MacDonald, James wife, grew up the child of an alcoholic. That carries a lot of baggage, and a lot of coping mechanisms, toxicity, that others in emotionally healthy families don’t have. There usually is a lot of hurt – just go to an Al Anon meeting and listen.

    Even if MacDonald wasn’t out of control in the early years – what was/is it like behind closed doors in his house?
    We’ve read about what Tony Jones ex-wife went through here at Wartburg Watch living with narcissism.
    MacDonald had no trouble controlling, beratting, denigrating and intimidating employees – their fear was his drug. What did the two sons and daughter grow up with?

    MacDonald can walk up to a deer in an enclosed space and riddle it with bullets in front of others, he stabs a picture of an employee with a knife, shoots at targets of elders wives with a pellet gun, openly expressed the murder in his heart toward a failed son-in-law, threatens to set up a well known and respected publisher by planting porn on his computer. That’s public knowledge now. What about behind closed doors? What was it like spending years growing up in his house?

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  6. I am not surprised in the least by this news. I would not be surprised if he succeeded and actually did kill someone. I would not be surprised if someone on TBN or DayStar has already killed someone. If not, it is only a matter of time. Why? Because what Jesus said about the Pharisees and murder is The Truth. There was and is a evil spirit behind what the Pharisees did. That spirit is still around today and active in religious circles. Also, to understand what Narcissism is is to understand that all sociopaths and psychopaths are also NPD. Whenever you encounter a person with that disorder there is a very real chance that they might be violent or have a murderous heart. This is the ugly reality. Satan is very active trying to get people like this into pulpits. We should not be ignorant of his schemes.

    I already pointed out how things that JMac did like carving up the picture of an ex-employee in front of current ones and shooting at pictures of employees after assigning them point values is a totally psychotic thing to do. The man is psychotic, period. This man needs to be locked up for the good of society. I guess he proves that something called a covert-psychotic can exist. We also need to understand that who people pretend to be in front of a camera or mic is not the same as who they really are. We are so easily fooled by skilled actors pretending to be something that they are not and will never be.

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  7. I really am at a loss for words. Three different people reported that MacDonald had inquired about having someone killed, each one thought at first that he was just venting, but as time went by and they spoke with each other, it dawned on them that he seemed to be serious.

    I guess with the amount of money and power that are involved in some of these megachurch positions, it should not surprise us the amount of corruption involved behind the scenes. There are a couple other “pastors” out there I am just waiting for something like this to come out about…

    Corleone attended a baptism while carrying out murders. Was MacDonald preaching about God and the Bible and teaching “Walk in the Word” while carrying out all these things that have been reported? Yes, yes he was.

    I guess there will still be people who insist he was sincere.

    My husband was uneasy when pastors started dressing up and playing like they were Hell’s Angels. Maybe he had a point.

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  8. TS00,

    “I will not pretend to be the judge. But I do hope that everyone who knows of any immoral and/or illegal deeds at Harvest will now come forward and make the truth known.

    Not because we all need some juicy gossip to salivate over, but because an awful lot of people, and an awful lot of money have gone through these hands, and it is time they were made accountable. This man, and his minions, are still hiding a lot of information. It is time everything is exposed to the light and, where appropriate, punished under the law.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    is there a place for judging?

    yes.

    i need no more evidence to judge that James MacDonald is a corrupt scheister (to be polite), with a dead battery for a conscience.

    i take a stand and judge him so. With no shame or apology, to God or anyone.

    we all do, here. it’s what people with a moral compass do.

    what’s wrong is wrong. We say so. Plainly. We judge it so.

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  9. Abigail,

    “I don’t get why these guys didn’t report sooner…the ones who were told that worked at the church….why cover it up? I don’t get it. Fear??? Of being his next target???”
    +++++++++++++++

    engaging with someone with personality disorders who wields the concept of God twists one’s mind and soul into a pretzel. and if they reward you financially,…. oh boy.

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  10. I have no doubt that JMac was one step away from executing his plan to kill someone.

    My youngest of my two younger sisters is a JMac. She abused my nephew as a child and then abandoned him.

    My nephew is now in his mid to late 20’s, lives here in Colorado.

    My sister and her boyfriend, show up on my doorstep, hunting him down, last night. They drove all the way from Iowa to Colorado.

    I had to call the police.

    Abuse is multi generational unless the family dynamic is changed.

    Hopefully now all of JMac’s family will be iced of of the ministry.

    Still pray for them though. I still pray for my little sister.

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  11. It will be instructive (I use the word for want of a better) to observe the reactions, and more general behaviours, of other prominent shareholders in the pseudo-christian public speaking industry.

    This industry attracts and nurtures evil men, as well as men (and, less commonly, women) who are just gifted at pulling crowds and making money. Put it this way: these are men whose contempt towards people who are visible hints at their attitude towards a “god” who is invisible. Obviously, they’re onto a good thing, and so they make every effort to conflate terminology such as “Jesus”, “Gospel”, “Kingdom”, “God”, “Body of Christ”, with their own brand and the goods they are marketing.

    Each time a MacDonald begins to be exposed, the first priority must be to protect the brand and therefore to attack those who are exposing him: this is characterised as “undermining the gospel” or “attacking the body of christ”. So, MacDonald’s co-labourers in pulpits throughout the pseudo-christian industrial complex will be characterising outsiders like Wartburg as playing into satan’s hands and de-valuing the Gospel brand in the eyes of “the world” – that is to say, the untapped markets. They’ll say that “the world” is put off “the Gospel” by the gossips and hate-mongers who are trying to tear down a godly pastor like MacDonald.

    There comes a point, though, when a MacDonald’s attested behaviour is such that he can no longer be marketed as a godly man of god who just happens to be imperfect and thus an even more beautiful picture of how jesus can be sold as a lifestyle makeover agent. What “the world” is really looking at is the stupidity, blindness and gullibility of “the body of christ” as its members continue to heap praise on something that is so blatantly evil. At that point, the money-changers have to change their strategy.

    ISTM that the real nucular option is taken each time someone says something like this: I thought MacDonald was a godly mentor, but I was conned. He’s nothing of the sort. It happens occasionally.

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  12. SiteSeer: I really am at a loss for words. Three different people reported that MacDonald had inquired about having someone killed, each one thought at first that he was just venting, but as time went by and they spoke with each other, it dawned on them that he seemed to be serious.

    And I am betting there are more. If he went to Muller of all people, who hadn’t followed him for as long and probably wasn’t as close, I’m betting he went to others who haven’t said anything yet.

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  13. Konbanwa from Kyoto, Japan! I saw some kawaii (cute) pug stuff in a store & thought of our blog mistress.

    This MacDonald stuff is CRAZY. If he doesn’t have a competent criminal attorney, it’s way past time he got one. I also like the Godfather analysis by Dee. However, for heavy drinking, I recommend rum.

    I’ll be back early next week and hope this MacDonald crazy becomes more clear.

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  14. dee: Total creepster.

    Agreed! But he might have been looking at nude images for his own gratification, and ginned* up the “looking for my daughter” excuse because he got caught. At a restaurant table. During a church trip.

    * 😉

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  15. __

    Rude Religious Awakening: Butter Knives, Pellet Guns, Concealed Carrys, And Chicago 501c3 Pastoral Hit Men, Perhaps?

    hmmm…

    Forget da booze,

    Make some noise!

    This sordid story is certainly a bonified candidate for the Readers Digest, the TV Guide, ‘certain’ Illinois judges, and state corrections officials…

    HBC reputations and brand recognition not the only thing burning?

    —> ‘Last call, my @zz…’

    ;~)§


    Intermission:
    “Peter Gunn Theme” by Henry Mancini
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MIKSQT-oXfc
    Bonus:
    “Burn it to the ground” – [GMV] (a Nicelback cove)
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v-Z1bFpu8mg
    Just because:
    Nickelback – “Sharp Dressed Man” (a ZZTop cover)
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh9Q6BGGU50

    – –

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  16. Yet, I suspect there are still loyal followers hoping he will be restored to ministry! He was such a good preacher/teacher, you know; a master of Scripture … his Bible-teaching ministry Walk in the Word had a huge following. Remember, the devil knows Scripture and used it on Jesus in an attempt to steer him off course.

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  17. Friend: I’m thinking that a typical father would not want to search for naked images of his daughter online.

    Well, JM certainly wasn’t a typical preacher, either! Nothing should surprise us at this point.

    “There is nothing so carefully concealed that it will not be revealed, nor so hidden that it will not be made known. For that reason, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered behind closed doors will be proclaimed on the housetops” (Luke 12:2-3) … or on the internet.

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  18. Nick Bulbeck: There comes a point, though, when a MacDonald’s attested behaviour is such that he can no longer be marketed as a godly man of god who just happens to be imperfect and thus an even more beautiful picture of how jesus can be sold as a lifestyle makeover agent.

    For someone who had a ministry called “Walk in the Word”, it’s obvious that MacDonald wasn’t.

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  19. The scene from The Godfather is powerful. BTW–It’s considered to be one of the greatest films of all time. That said, let’s have a contest– which gangster does Jimmy the Macster, the Don of Harvest, most resemble? I say he’s less like Don Vito Corleone and Michael, and more like the hot-headed Sonny or the impulsive Fredo. If you prefer Goodfellas, you could opt for Jimmy the Gent, Robert Dinero’s character. I vote for Tommy, played by Joe Pesci. He has by far the most volatile temper of any character in either movie. And the rest of the cast? Who is Harvest’s Luca Brasi? Tom Hagen? Clemenza? How ’bout this one– the Macster’s ex son-in-law could be Carlo!

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  20. He shouldn’t be in a pulpit ever! He should be in jail. I don’t give a fig about anyone’s beliefs about guns. James MacDonald should have all guns and ammunition removed from his possession. He has no right to own a gun when he is threatening murder. He is an irresponsible evil man.

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  21. Unreal. Anyone who kills animals for fun should be suspect. Putting out a hit on a human must be a major power trip.

    Mancow is proof that God uses rascals. I think God prefers to use rascals.

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  22. Nick Bulbeck: It will be instructive (I use the word for want of a better) to observe the reactions, and more general behaviours, of other prominent shareholders in the pseudo-christian public speaking industry.

    Will there be any reaction? I wonder. Or will it be to ignore it and talk about other things. The Harvest outlet in my hometown continues as usual. Same name. Same vertical stripes. Same “you are loved” posted everywhere. Same elder rule with membership covenant requirements. Nothing mentioned on their website distancing them in any way from the mothership or the leader who so spectacularly sullied the name of Jesus. The brand continues as if nothing had happened.

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  23. Suzie Q:
    Godfather juxtaposition, indeed. This sad story reveals the deteriorating state of The Church today. Why do we Believers long to follow men? They fail us. God alone is trustworthy. Stockpile His Word.

    Bible’s pretty clear that you’re right. It says cursed is the one who trusts in man. And judging by the reactions of a lot of MacDonald sycophants to this latest news, one has to wonder whether they love Jesus or just idolize a man. At least it’s a fair question.

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  24. elastigirl,

    I suspect you misunderstand my point. I have no problem acknowledging that the breadth of testimony and evidence – including his own written and taped words – suggestss a great deal about the corrupt and deceptive nature of MacDonald’s character and deeds. I also think there is much more that remains to be exposed, which clever scheming has so far kept hidden.

    I am, however, willing to withhold definitive judgment on individual hearsay claims of ‘he did this’ or ‘he did that’. I would demand the same benefit of the doubt were such claims made against me. All so charged must be given the opportunity to present evidence and make their case. If they choose to remain silent, so be it.

    Based on earlier, corroborated evidence of uncontrolled violent tendencies, I do not doubt that the alleged hit man talks occurred, and suspect that MacDonald was serious. But my personal understanding of justice demands that I hold this opinion loosely until evidence beyond mere individual hearsay can be produced.

    I do not underestimate MacDonald. In my opinion, someone who could commit countless misdeeds at the least, and possibly serious crimes, while maintaining the image of chief saint and man of gawd is very, very clever; and very, very systematic. He could not have gotten away with this apparent con for so long otherwise.

    He would have been careful to keep the dirt off of his own hands. I find it interesting that the accuser alleges he promised to help dispose of the body. This suggests that MacDonald knew his offer would be seen as a trap, and he wanted to prove he was willing to share the risk. His bodyguard would surely know that MacDonald always made sure someone else took the fall, or only used goons whose hands he knew were none too clean to begin with. If all else failed, he would threaten or plant incriminating evidence to keep people quiet. Reports suggest that those involved knew how the game was played.

    Mancow admitted that the reason he was afraid of having porn planted on his computer was because he was asked by MacDonald to do the same to another. He would not be likely to incriminate himself had he actually done it, but simply being asked to commit such a crime, and not reporting it, might be enough to leverage against him.

    The same as watching and laughing at a perverse video, or agreeing to engage in unrighteous ‘name it’ games. By these, naive individuals could be led deeper and deeper into MacDonald’s trap; if they did not flee at the early signs, they would be compelled to go along with ever more perverse activities, such as spying on one another for MacDonald’s ‘dope’ book.

    Thus, or so my hypothesis goes, MacDonald may have been simply testing the waters in asking individuals to procure a hit man, setting a trap, if you will. I doubt he just popped off such a seriously criminal request without careful forethought. He would either have, or intend to plant, dirt on anyone with whom he discussed such sinister schemes. There is no way on earth he would casually open himself up to the serious charge of arranging a hit without ensuring the silence of the lambs.

    The fear and inaction of the people involved suggests that they had seen such things at work, and knew that simply by being approached with such a request they had been targeted. MacDonald knew no one would believe them if they told, yet could hold it over them if they failed to reported him. It was always no win for the poor dupes who followed him.

    My hypothesis holds MacDonald to be a sociopathic, criminal mastermind, expert at manipulation, abuse and robbery, and even better at concealing it. So good, that to this day he is confident that he will not be nailed. That would require taking down all those whom he has made sure the paper trail would include.

    I suspect taking him down would require plea bargains, or people willing to face charges for their part in moral or criminal misdeeds. But that is just my hypothesis, based on the evidence I have seen, my personal experience with narcissistic sociopaths, and my study of such behavior.

    All that to say, I do not defend MacDonald or suggest his innocence. I do assert that even the worst criminal suspect should be judged on the basic evidentiary standards of real justice, rather than my, or anyone else’s hypotheses.

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  25. Bridget: the church, not The Church.

    Not convinced at this point that JD is part of The Church. It’s not my call to judge his salvation, but I wouldn’t welcome him as a brother.

    True, but it is your call to judge fruits and to have nothing whatsoever to do with someone who says “Jesus, Jesus” but lives in a manner that mocks Him at every turn. We all struggle with sin and that struggle won’t end until we’re dead and buried, but for some people, judging by their fruits, one has to wonder if they even think there’s a need to struggle against it, one has to wonder if some don’t just hate Jesus rather than love Him and seek power positions in the church because it can more efficiently feed their lust to hurt Christians.

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  26. Law Prof: Not convinced at this point that JD is part of The Church.

    Jesus said that you will know them by their fruit. Jesus does not lie and in this statement there is no wiggle room for exceptions. You can bank on what Jesus said. JMac is not and probably never has been a part of The Church.

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  27. First time caller, long time listener. When I read about the porn it reminded me of a 2012 Prestonwood Men’s Conference where JMac spoke. I thought JMac mentioned during conference time he had issues with pornography. In fact, I think he mentioned he was staying with Jack Graham to keep him from looking at it. So, I tried to look up the video from that conference, and shockingly enough it had been removed. http://www.prestonwoodmensconference.org/media-2012.html Thank you for what you do

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  28. I too don’t have a problem with a gun in a car…..But then, I’m from Texas……And after going to seminary, you shouldn’t be shocked if this true. Disappointed, but not shocked….You would be amazed at what some of the people who become ministers think….

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  29. Friend: Agreed! But he might have been looking at nude images for his own gratification, and ginned* up the “looking for my daughter” excuse because he got caught. At a restaurant table. During a church trip.

    *

    “Bait a trap with p***y and you’ll catch a preacher every time.”
    — one of JMJ/Christian Monist’s uncles

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  30. Fisher: Nothing mentioned on their website distancing them in any way from the mothership or the leader who so spectacularly sullied the name of Jesus. The brand continues as if nothing had happened.

    Because Nothing Happened.
    (And the chocolate ration of twenty grams has been increased to ten.)

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  31. SOLICITING FOR MURDER IS A VERY SERIOUS FELONY.

    However, this is Chicago where all the authorities have their price.
    (Just ask Johnny Torrio and his apprentice/successor Al Capone.)

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  32. Ishy: Of course, SBC leaders have been mostly silent on JMac.

    because the only charlatans they’re concerned with are evil women posing as elders. A few tens of millions of stolen money, maybe a little murder-for-hire obviously pales in comparison with serious sin.

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  33. Slight tangent, but picking up the theme of the charming picture of Dee on the beach:

    Lesley and I are staying in a wee cottage in Corran for a few days. Corran is in Ardgour, a part of the Highlands that neither of us have ever been to before. Today’s exercise was the superb Graham, Druim na Sgriodain. It’s only 730 metres or so, but its E summit rises directly up from the sea at Corran and the views are fantastic in all directions. I’m not even sure I’d ever seen Beinn Resipol before… The hill’s closeness to the sea creates a curious optical illusion in the form of an exaggerated feeling of height; Ben Nevis, nearby across Loch Linnhe and almost twice as high, looks as though it’s on the same level.

    Still not sorry I emigrated to Scotland…

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  34. Anthony: Is Mac connected in any way with SBC?

    Yes, James MacDonald and Harvest Bible Chapel became SBC members, after he recanted of calling SBC’s congregational governance from Satan. https://theelephantsdebt.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/congregational-government-is-from-satan.pdf

    SBC’s New Calvinists loved the guy; of course, they have proven time and again to have no spiritual discernment. JMac was scheduled to be a featured speaker at this year’s SBC Pastor’s Conference … until his assorted sins hit the fan.

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  35. Ishy: SBC leaders have been mostly silent on JMac.

    They should have already shredded his SBC membership card, along with disfellowshipping HBC for multiple failures by JMac and his leadership team. But the New Calvinists, now firmly in control of SBC, hold onto their own as long as possible. When they finally get around to doing the right thing, they say things like “Driscoll who?” … “MacDonald who?” … etc.

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  36. Friend: If so, let’s hope he chooses some more soft-spoken rascals.

    LOL! My PC must be wonky, because I had a hard time hearing the soft-spoken folks on that podcast, whereas Mancow came through loud and clear.

    I feel so totally out of it. Were it not for Wartburg Watch, I would never even have heard of James MacDonald. Or of Mancow, either, for that matter.

    I’m sure this question has already been asked and answered, so please bear with me: Is MacDonals New Cal? Or just a garden-variety thug preacher? Thanks in advance!

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  37. What’s the big deal? I mean, I’ve had all kinds of pastors and holy men in my life who shoved knives into pictures of rivals, who used pictures of elders’ wives for target practice, who shot defenseless animals to pieces, unloading their weapons on them, who collected millions from the church to live as barons while running the church $40 M in debt, who gave away cars and Rolexes to people to curry favor with them on the church’s dime, who solicited hit men to kill family members. Hmmmm…well, maybe that never did happen to me, maybe that is kind of ugly and monsterous.

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  38. TS00: because the only charlatans they’re concerned with are evil women posing as elders. A few tens of millions of stolen money, maybe a little murder-for-hire obviously pales in comparison with serious sin.

    There’s the “evil bloggers” who write about their friends. And the “broken wolves” who is vaguely defined, but any female who doesn’t submit to their “loving authority” and tells other people about it.

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  39. James MacDonald was a featured speaker at SIX SBC Pastors’ Conferences – 2007, 2008, 2012, 2014, 2015, 2016.
    He was scheduled again for 2019:

    https://twitter.com/SBCPastorsConf/status/1074719396600406016

    “Statement from Dr. Danny Wood, president of #SBCPC19: ‘James MacDonald contacted me personally to say he is stepping away from all outside speaking engagements for a season (including Pastors Conference 2019)…Thankful for this brother, and he has my prayers as he focuses upon his own local church ministry.”

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  40. Catholic Gate-Crasher: Is MacDonals New Cal? Or just a garden-variety thug preacher? Thanks in advance!

    Both. The New Calvinists adore him (or did); the young reformers viewed him as the next best thing to Mark Driscoll. He was a founding member of The Gospel Coalition (= The Calvinist Coalition). However, he had a falling away with TGC and resigned due to his “methodological convictions.” https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justin-taylor/james-macdonald-and-the-gospel-coalition/

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  41. Max: Good Lord! These folks don’t have one ounce of wisdom when it comes to the brethren among them.

    Late last year Dave Miller, moderator over at SBC Voices, censored a comment I made referring to James MacDonald as a “disgraced Southern Baptist megachurch pastor”.

    He removed “disgraced” leaving it as

    “[edited] Southern Baptist megachurch pastor James MacDonald”

    and posted that he’d removed an “insult”.

    Turns out Dave Miller is a former SBC Pastors Conference president and SBC vice president!

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  42. Jeremy: 2012 Prestonwood Men’s Conference where JMac spoke. I thought JMac mentioned during conference time he had issues with pornography

    Scream!! Not someone you expect to lead a ministry called “Walk in the Word”, be adored by tens of thousands of new reformers, a leading influencer in the New Calvinist movement – sharing the throne with reformed icons, a featured speaker at multiple SBC Pastors Conferences, etc. etc. This guy was slick!

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  43. Max,

    his “methodological convictions.”

    So apparently his convictions include rubbing people out, whacking, deep sixing, and wanting to see his opponents pushing up daisies….

    Hopefully his “convictions” will ultimately result in genuine a conviction.

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  44. Noevangelical:
    Max,

    his “methodological convictions.”

    So apparently his convictions include rubbing people out, whacking, deep sixing, and wanting to see his opponents pushing up daisies….

    Hopefully his “convictions” will ultimately result in genuine a conviction.

    Maybe rubbing, whacking, deep-sixing…as well as cussing, abusing, pilfering and lying are fruits of the spirit in his world.

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  45. Max: Scream!!Not someone you expect to lead a ministry called “Walk in the Word”, be adored by tens of thousands of new reformers, a leading influencer in the New Calvinist movement – sharing the throne with reformed icons, a featured speaker at multiple SBC Pastors Conferences, etc. etc.This guy was slick!

    Actually Max I would say the opposite. A slouch is not going to start a ministry. A driven person will, and that drive will show up in their personal life, not just their ministerial.

    My guess is…
    ..an overwhelming majority of successful ministry leaders are drawn to porn
    …and or, have a substantial sex drive
    …are typically Type A personalities
    …will face outsized sexual temptation as a result public status
    …are often under stress as a result of ministry position
    …are emotionaly isolated from average non-ordained believers who do not serve in a ministry capacity

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  46. TS00: My hypothesis holds MacDonald to be a sociopathic, criminal mastermind, expert at manipulation, abuse and robbery, and even better at concealing it.

    He makes me think of the NBC hit TV show Blacklist.

    I think Raymond Reddington (James Spader) would fix his wagon in about two shakes of a lamb’s tail.

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  47. Max: Good Lord! These folks don’t have one ounce of wisdom when it comes to the brethren among them.

    They are easily impressed by tattoos, shaved heads and leather. Words are the only measure (you can always steal them, if you need to), and testosterone-fueled shenanigans are smiled on with understanding. Just keep the wimminfolk in line.

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  48. I hate to even think this, but I believe it would be easier to get the public riled up if the national press were to bring the animal abuses to the public’s attention. Murder for hire, not so much. Sadly, we live in “that” kind of world now.
    (pass the gin!)

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  49. TS00: They are easily impressed by tattoos, shaved heads and leather.

    The SBC is overrun by little boys and their toys right now. Traditional Southern Baptists should have been more diligent, rather than opening their doors and their pulpits to these characters.

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  50. The more I see at SBC Voices, and elsewhere, the more I can’t believe I looked up to these types of people growing up. I think I was amazingly sheltered by my parents, and I got lucky.

    The self righteous, self aggrandizing, self congratulating, thin skinned, combative personalities really amaze me, and show a serious issue with the Evangelical culture.

    I very rarely see any fruits of the spirit from these people. I guess those that are actually showing fruit are for the most part too busy working for the Kingdom.
    Sigh.

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  51. Why is there such surprise? We’ve seen this behavior on the news for years, from isis to the anti abortion fringe! If not for all the social media and internet exposure, this clown was another Jim Jones waiting to happen.

    Nothing happened in a vacuum. Harvest church is a pit of the first order. I’m sure some were dupes but there were a lot that would have killed or died for this psychopath.

    Time to shut it down before it produces another one.

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  52. Raswhiting: And no one will be invited to write a rebuttal either… unless they donate a car to someone…

    Oh yeah, forgot about Stetzer. He was smart to remain silent on the VW fiasco. With the latest on JMac, who the heck cares about the VW any longer?!

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  53. Magistos: Seriously though, that seems small potatoes now.

    Certainly, giving/accepting the VW gift purchased with the tithe of HBC members was wrong for both JMac and Stetzer … but, the bug exchange pales in comparison to other JMac shenanigans. The VW scandal just points to a system gone amiss in the Christian Industrial Complex, where elites plunder the bucks of well-meaning tithing units.

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  54. Nathan Priddis: My guess is…
    ..an overwhelming majority of successful ministry leaders are drawn to porn
    …and or, have a substantial sex drive
    …are typically Type A personalities
    …will face outsized sexual temptation as a result public status
    …are often under stress as a result of ministry position
    …are emotionaly isolated from average non-ordained believers who do not serve in a ministry capacity

    I think you nailed it here. All this means that Fallen pastors are very common place. Getting a bunch of people whipped up and excited about something is not at all the same as doing the right thing in the eyes of God. Never has been and never will be. Didn’t the prophet say something about “all that sound of live animals” he was hearing to the King who was told to kill them all… 1 Sam 15:14

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  55. Given all of this violent behavior maybe HBC should get a restraining order against JMac. From the Elders note:

    Is JMac allowed back on the Harvest property? Will he be arrested if he shows up?

    He is not invited on the property, but we won’t stop him from coming. JMac was seen driving around on the Elgin campus Thursday morning, April 11 at around 11 AM. In some ways, JMac still believes he works for the church.

    What is a grown man doing going back to his former place of employment? What are his intentions? Is he stalking someone? Does he carry a gun in his car when circling HBC? Why would he be allowed back on campus? It is disturbing he still thinks he works for the church. Who in their right mind would not be concerned at this point?

    I can tell you how this will end and it will end in crazy.

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  56. Brian: We can still pray for ones salvation and still insist that they be prosecuted for immoral/illegal activity.

    Yes indeed! In fact we can even love those who do wrong (like family members) and still insist on prosecution. Its called tough love. And justice.

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  57. Max: Certainly, giving/accepting the VW gift purchased with the tithe of HBC members was wrong for both JMac and Stetzer … but, the bug exchange pales in comparison to other JMac shenanigans. The VW scandal just points to a system gone amiss in the Christian Industrial Complex, where elites plunder the bucks of well-meaning tithing units.

    I would suggest that it is all tied together. The bribes and payoffs were essential to keep the machine running. Big money showed up, just as it does in the political arena, which leads to a whole other area of inquiry that has not been much pursued.

    Every single cog in this machine was carefully assessed and utilized. Until people are willing to get beyond the, ‘Mega pastor falls into sin’ mantra they will never see the bigger picture. Funny how these falling Mega pastors move in the same circles, speak at the same conventions, all have their books and radio programs pushed by the big time religious powers. Coincidence?

    Or might it require pondering the possibility of some element of coordination among the powers that be? Who are the real, unseen religious rainmakers? This sort of well-run organization does not come out of nowhere. What were JMac’s early days like? Who were his sponsors and mentors? Where did his start-up money come from? How far back does coordination with other well-known institutional entities, like SBC, CT, Moody, TGC, etc. go?

    Some will insist that JMac was a lone ranger sociopath who just happened to play all of his cards right. I am not so sure I believe in such inspiration. I suspect he had friends in high places, who to this day have not managed to condemn the man or explain their unquestioning acceptance of him despite the clouds that have long surrounded him. Just like Mahaney. Just like Driscoll. And I haven’t been in these parts that long, but there are probably others.

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  58. Done One: easier to get the public riled up if the national press were to bring the animal abuses to the public’s attention. Murder for hire, not so much.

    Often its the technicalities or “little things” which bring someone to account. It will be difficult to prove the allegations about murder for hire, whereas the bullet ridden deer was clearly witnessed by mutiple people. It does seem time to call in the MI DNR.

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  59. Brian,

    “We can still pray for ones salvation and still insist that they be prosecuted for immoral/illegal activity.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    agreed.

    someone can be rightfully deemed / judged a corrupt schmuck with the conscience of a dead battery outside of courtroom prosecution.

    i see no reason not to take stock in my/one’s own sense of what is right/wrong, and make decisions, judgements accordingly. i see no reason to withhold judgement on character and behavior when the evidence is compelling.

    i suppose it’s from a lifetime in this silly religion of mine where it seems everyone is so timid to call out wrong, especially when it comes to all manner of unethical scuzz amongst leaders and people of influence.

    although uppity women and stepping outside sexuality lines riles up all the righteous indignation…

    yet everything else is pandered to, out of fear of judging.

    excessive self-interest in keeping oneself supposedly sin-free is much more important than what is right and wrong and how it impacts people — how people are harmed by the wrong behavior/actions of others. and so many christians say nothing.

    TS00,

    TS00, i did misunderstand you. I hear you, and agree.

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  60. Abigail: I don’t get why these guys didn’t report sooner…the ones who were told that worked at the church….why cover it up? I don’t get it. Fear??? Of being his next target???

    Well, it’s not like someone normal had suddenly asked this of them. McDonald’s behavior was always off the wall in private, he was always pushing the boundaries and gaslighting people. They were always in a position of trying to sort out reality.

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  61. Max: Certainly, giving/accepting the VW gift purchased with the tithe of HBC members was wrong for both JMac and Stetzer … but, the bug exchange pales in comparison to other JMac shenanigans.The VW scandal just points to a system gone amiss in the Christian Industrial Complex, where elites plunder the bucks of well-meaning tithing units.

    Seems like no consequences for Stezer to this point in time.

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  62. TS00: They are easily impressed by tattoos, shaved heads and leather.

    A known mind game called “Tough Guy”.
    Suck up to the Tough Guys, and maybe some of their Alpha Maleness will rub off on you.

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  63. Brian:
    GSD [Getting Stuff Done],

    I know one of the sign of troubled kids is torturing animals.

    It’s one of the things FBI profilers specifically look for. Along with bedwetting and a third characteristic I don’t remember, they call it “the triad” of a future serial killer.

    In such cases, addiction/tolerance response emerges and the perp graduates from four-legged prey to two-leggers. The goat loses its horns and the pig elongates.

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  64. Jerome: Late last year Dave Miller, moderator over at SBC Voices, censored a comment I made referring to James MacDonald as a “disgraced Southern Baptist megachurch pastor”.

    He removed “disgraced” leaving it as

    “[edited] Southern Baptist megachurch pastor James MacDonald”

    and posted that he’d removed an “insult”.

    Turns out Dave Miller is a former SBC Pastors Conference president and SBC vice president!

    “One hand washes the other…”

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  65. Max: SBC’s New Calvinists loved the guy; of course, they have proven time and again to have no spiritual discernment.

    Why should they?
    They’re The Predestined Elect, God’s Speshul Pets, and Can Do No Wrong.

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  66. Fisher: To quote another Harvest pastor after he was trained at Harvest U, “I love James’ hard hitting no-nonsense approach.”

    Oh yeah, that’s a great way for a shepherd to treat sheep! Hard hit them to get them in line … the bad-dude approach to ministry. MacDonald and Driscoll, dudebros, are two peas in the same pod. Unfortunately, there are Driscollites and MacDonaldites aplenty in New Calvinist pulpits across America, trained by masters of deception … love is not in their toolkit.

    “The prophets prophesy falsely,
    And the priests rule on their own authority;
    And My people love to have it so!
    But what will you do when the end comes?” (Jeremiah 5:31)

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  67. Max: love is not in their toolkit.

    My beloved grandmother always had George Beverly Shea records on the hi-fi:

    Just as I am, without one plea
    But that Thy blood was shed for me
    And that Thou bidd’st me come to Thee
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

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  68. Fisher: This may be true.To quote another Harvest pastor after he was trained at Harvest U, “I love James’ hard hitting no-nonsense approach.”

    “HE LOVED BIG BROTHER.”

    Only when you are completely broken to The System will you be promoted within The System.

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  69. Bene D,

    Bene D I’ve often wondered that as well. Having come out abusive relationships (both physical & emotional) I understand how the manipulation, the beating down of your self esteem & identity, can cause you to stay and justify all manner of behavior. Fear is a potent motivator. With Kathy coming from a toxic background with her alcoholic father, it is no surprise she married someone even more toxic. I’m not justifying her actions, just providing perspective of someone who has been there.

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  70. Mancow/Macdonald Transcript: @8.11

    Potential Criminal Statements

    This was missed apparently in the previous April blog post. I wondered at the time if it went over people’s heads.

    There was never any statements regarding the source, and therefore legality of the recording. There is no way to know if this is admissible without more background.
    The only thing we can go by is it’s airing, and presumed review by station Counsel.

    ….[JMac: He is. I like to kind of kid around with him, but– it’s a very reasoned opinion. (inaudible) opinion they have. Very, very carefully thought through over many years, and it is, basically, if a person refuses the steps of Matthew 18, when it says, “Let them be to you as a non-believer,” does that then mean that you have the protections afforded to you by, in human government, ordained by God, in order–doesn’t say they are a non-believer, not saying they’re not a believer. I’m saying they won’t conduct themselves as believers, and they won’t come under any biblical authority, and is it within your purview then–. And it is fine if a person is, “Well, I don’t agree. I don’t think that that’s reasonable–”

    [00:08:51] WShep: You’re right, this should lead to a larger conversation, a deeper conversation. But you’re taking the flak when it needs to go much deeper…

    JMac: And I was rather to take the flak. Ravi Zacharias, they all told me to do it, but they all told me that they wouldn’t attach their name to it.

    WShep: Yeah.

    [09:04] JMac: And I understand why, I really do.]….

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  71. Check this one out..Shaun McDonnell was targeted by HBC and he is willing to talk. From McShauno on Twitter:

    So, things happened to me after I started talking about the HBCO / HBF matter. Bizarre things that I had convinced myself was coincidence or was just “evil” doubling down on me. But NOW… after hearing this audio… I know it was targeted.

    “One weekday morning I walk into my office and head to the elevator. A woman gets into the elevator with me. I had never seen her before. She’s dressed provactively but I didn’t think anything of it because it’s the 21st century. She was wearing a lot of perfume.”

    “She starts talking to me. Very friendly. Rather than talking side-by-side she turns to face me which weirded me out a bit. We’re only going up 3 floors. I get out on the 3rd floor. She gets out too. I head towards my office and she goes the other way but grabs my arm first.”

    “She says, “The bathrooms are this way. There are not a lot of people here yet. We could talk some more? Have a little fun?”

    I laughed thinking a joke. Then realized she was dead serious.”

    “Now, at this point, I am terrified. I don’t know why but I was scared. I literally run into my office, sit at my desk and call my wife immediately. I tell her everything. I then call security. It never occured to me until later that it could have been a setup”

    “I eventually decided that it was just evil doubling down on weakened Christians. I didn’t think it was possible and I felt crazy for even thinking that for a second. I told 3 close friends of mine afterwards and they can all feel free to back up the story here if they want.”

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  72. Shaun McDonnell was targeted by HBC and he is willing to talk. From McShauno on Twitter:

    So, things happened to me after I started talking about the HBCO / HBF matter. Bizarre things that I had convinced myself was coincidence or was just “evil” doubling down on me. But NOW… after hearing this audio… I know it was targeted.

    “One weekday morning I walk into my office and head to the elevator. A woman gets into the elevator with me. I had never seen her before. She’s dressed provactively but I didn’t think anything of it because it’s the 21st century. She was wearing a lot of perfume.”

    “She starts talking to me. Very friendly. Rather than talking side-by-side she turns to face me which weirded me out a bit. We’re only going up 3 floors. I get out on the 3rd floor. She gets out too. I head towards my office and she goes the other way but grabs my arm first.”

    “She says, “The bathrooms are this way. There are not a lot of people here yet. We could talk some more? Have a little fun?”

    I laughed thinking a joke. Then realized she was dead serious.”

    “Now, at this point, I am terrified. I don’t know why but I was scared. I literally run into my office, sit at my desk and call my wife immediately. I tell her everything. I then call security. It never occured to me until later that it could have been a setup”

    “I eventually decided that it was just evil doubling down on weakened Christians. I didn’t think it was possible and I felt crazy for even thinking that for a second. I told 3 close friends of mine afterwards and they can all feel free to back up the story here if they want.”

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  73. Julie: “Now, at this point, I am terrified. I don’t know why but I was scared. I literally run into my office, sit at my desk and call my wife immediately. I tell her everything. I then call security. It never occured to me until later that it could have been a setup”

    What the Intel boys call “the honey pot” and cops used to call “the badger game”.

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  74. Nathan Priddis,

    Thought, their process:

    If you don’t follow my version of the Matthew 18 process, then they must not be Christians. And if they are not Christians, I can sue them and claim victim status publicly, garnering sympathy, manipulating the situation. No one will believe that I could do anything underhanded.

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  75. Julie:
    Shaun McDonnell was targeted by HBC and he is willing to talk. From McShauno on Twitter:

    So, things happened to me after I started talking about the HBCO / HBF matter. Bizarre things that I had convinced myself was coincidence or was just “evil” doubling down on me. But NOW… after hearing this audio… I know it was targeted.

    I read this when he posted it, and it was disturbing. It is even more disturbing now after this latest revelation.

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  76. AW COME ON!!! Cut my good buddy Jmac some slack, Jimmy renounced My works, just like Michael Corleone did in The Godfather….isn’t that enough? Its like I’ve always said “Good enough for Michael Corleone Good enough for Jimmy McDonald”….both of those guys were just building up their “Family business”….Hey Jimmy I know Naples Florida is off the table now that I have my man Jeff Donaldson there, but I have a nice “toasty” place waiting for you just a little farther south, Can’t wait to see ya.

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  77. Julie: “I eventually decided that it was just evil doubling down on weakened Christians. I didn’t think it was possible and I felt crazy for even thinking that for a second.

    Something completely bizarre and suspicious happens? Must be spiritual forces…
    Where else could you find such pliable victims? He must have felt like God, manipulating people, running circles around them.

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  78. What a horrific situation…wow.
    Tangent here…but speaking of your reference to Ken Ham in the post, if you are open to addressing them, I’d like to know your concerns. I agree with his views on creation, but if there are issues such as dishonest business dealings or other ethical issues on his part, I would like to know. TIA

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  79. I want to know how much you have saved in your liability/lawsuit account because something tells me this is nothing but a publicity stunt by an aging shock jock “Mancow” and a disgruntled ex-employee from an evangelical church (Moody) “Roys”.

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  80. That’s right Mary, dont let those haters attack our good Pal and cult leader….oops I mean Solid citizen Jimmy mac…..you just keep defending Jimmy and his Henchmen buddies, and you and I will get along just fine.

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  81. Mary,

    It is obvious that you know very little about liable law. The person who sues has to prove that the person knowingly lied in order to cause malicious harm to another person. When that person is a celebrity, the standard is even higher. It is not slander to report a conversation about being asked to kill someone unless you know it didn’t happen.However, you only have to belieive it happened. If Mancow believed it, it is not liable. In fact, it is good that he reported this to the police so that they can do a thorough investigation.

    Mary-do your research. See how many slander lawsuits out there a actually make it to payday.

    Also, what does Mancow’s age have to do with truth or was that a dig? Feel better now? And Roys reported this because she was *disgruntled?” You mean, she told the truth and reported things that were problematic?

    Go back to your nice little world surrounded by nice people who love James MacDonald and pretend that all is well.

    Good night! What are they teaching these days?

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  82. Marie,

    Read all my posts on creation over the last 10 years, first. Ken Ham is no scientist. I am a theistic evolutionist who believes that God created the universe ex nihilism. I don’t need to read junk science in order to force Scripture into a nice, neat box. Most scientist who are also Christian believe in an ancient earth and love the Lord as well.

    As you will see, my posts are many and the comments fascinating. I do not like Ken Ham and his simplistic games. “Were you there?” “Your grandmother looks old and she is only 80 years old.” Up until about 3 years ago, I read everything on Ham’s AIG so I’ve listened to his debates and read his stuff.

    It will be a useless conversation. You are free to believe what you want. You will still go to heaven while believing in a young earth. (I pulled a Ken Ham with that comment.)

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  83. dee,

    Hi Dee,
    Perhaps I wasn’t clear in that I wasn’t looking to debate you on this issue or stir up strife. I did indicate that I do agree with Ham’s view on creation but wasn’t trying to argue for it but rather find out what are the areas of concern with him (such as personal behavior, etc). Peace.

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  84. Mary,

    For Mac to prevail in a libel lawsuit, he’d have to prove that Dee knew the allegations were lies, or recklessly proceeded forward with publishing the allegations even though any blamed fool should’ve known it was false. As it has come from multiple sources, some of them flat out independent of each other, the odds of such a lawsuit succeeding are so long as to be virtually zero. If you’re going to talk about the law, you might want to know a little something about it first. Just sayin.

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  85. Mary: something tells me this is nothing but a publicity stunt by an aging shock jock “Mancow” and a disgruntled ex-employee from an evangelical church (Moody) “Roys”.

    “A” disgruntled ex-employee? I have lost count of the number of people who have spoken out about MacDonald’s terrible behavior. Why would you feel the need to defend a man who has behaved in this way?

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  86. “Plantz said MacDonald was upset with the pastor, Josh Weidmann, because Weidmann had learned personal information about Abby as her youth pastor, which Weidmann refused to tell MacDonald.”

    Seems he has been pretty controlling about Abby.

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  87. dee,

    “Most scientists who are also Christian believe in an ancient earth.”

    And your proof of this is?

    I could just as easily say “Most scientists who are also Christian believe in a young earth…” but I’m guessing readers would expect me to provide some evidence to prove my point.

    In my view, there is just as much “junk science” used to support the old earth view. Young earth proponents do not have a lock on that.

    GBTC Here
    This issue has been discussed here many times in the past. And there are surveys to back it up.

    And if you have “junk science” references then please provide them. But if they are hearsay or verse proof text based or just flat out calling cranks experts, expect to be pummeled. For those who have looked into this it basically comes down to young earth science is based on unknowns because they can’t argue refute the fact that point to an old earth. Now let this die.

    You are engaging in a for of what is called Sealioning.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
    We will explicitly say “this is not allowed” in a few days as we publish more explicit rules for commenting.

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