Eins?

“Thankfully, adult family members will be living at my house to care for the pug dogs and my backyard birds.”

You should warn them about drstevej under the table or they could become alarmed.

Below is a basic definition of the narcissist.

-Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others.-End

Narcissism cannot be treated with medication and therapy can help modify behavior, however the narcissist generally does not seek help because their egos will not admit there is anything wrong.

In reading articles and blogs there has been indication that James exhibits these behaviors. Having not been close to him, I cannot evaluate nor would I be medically qualified, but if this is true, it will be near impossible for the narcissist to see themselves as others do.

Let’s all pray for the 12k+ congregants at this time. Let’s pray that James has a “come to Jesus” moment and desists from the lawsuits and pray for him and his family at this time. Let’s remember that God deals with His children in His perfect will and way and we can trust Him. . Let’s remember that God’s vengeance is His, not ours. Yes, let truth prevail and God’s light shine and reveal any darkness, but let’s not forget what God would have us do above and beyond. Pray with humble hearts. GOD IS IN CONTROL❤️

Nick Bulbeck: levels…

Bah – that should be level (singular).

From the article:

“The plaintiffs asked a judge for a restraining order to stop the defendants from publishing information about MacDonald and the church while the lawsuit moves forward.

“Defendants’ false and defamatory statements have a negative impact on Plaintiffs’ ability to convert new persons to the faith, maintain their congregation and raise the funds necessary to operate,” the petition claims.

The judge denied the request.”

JMac and Co. are going to see that the coercion, bullying and strong-arm tactics they use to run their ‘ministry’ won’t work very well in court! I’m certain that judge doesn’t give a hoot if they are getting any new converts. The real key however, is found in their statement of “…negative impact on Plaintiffs’ ability to…raise the funds necessary to operate…”. THAT, good people is truly the entire essence of this law suit!

Who writes these HBC Elder Executive Committee letters? James MacDonald? The writing is so over the top in the adoration and praise for James MacDonald. The letters seem so unhealthy and quite frankly weird. You can’t tell me that HBC is not a cult.

I am still trying to get this straight in my mind – as Bible professing Christians and Gospel glitterati, we don’t report CSA to authorities because we don’t want to drag the workings of the church into the secular courts and sully the reputation of Jesus, because 1 Corinthians 6. HOWEVER, as Bible professing Christians and Gospel glitterati, when our feelings get hurt and our personal reputations get challenged, we absolutely go to court because 1 Corinthians 6 does not apply?

Bizzaro-Christianity 101

Dee’s May 15, 2012 post about MacArthur’s view on suing other Christians is interesting. Apparently, MacDonald didn’t consult The MacArthur NT Commentary.

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/05/15/phil-johnson-responds-for-john-macarthur-and-grace-community-church/

A.Stacy:
Dee… Thanks for making the point about him being reformed.I would love to hear him explain that it a deposition.

As a person that deals in lawsuits everyday.I can’t believe that someone did not explain three words to him…

Interrogatories
Subpoenas
Depositions… And the failure to comply.

Any defense attorney worth their salt… buy the time this is all over we will know his underwear size.When you sue someone you better count the cost.I hope they video his depositions. There is no hiding anything now.

While I’m not qualified to hold an independent opinion, it appears from the recent “Response” to plaintiffs’ motion, accessible at TED, (and the plaintiffs’ motion itself) that the plaintiffs are not happy that JR has already started discovery and that non-confidential but previously concealed documents are starting to see light of day.

IIRC Jesus said something about whispered things being shouted from rooftops.

One wonders how much the plaintiffs are willing to have “shouted from the rooftops.”

A.Stacy: Any defense attorney worth their salt…

“But Joe here only handles DUIs!”

Mr. Jesperson: Thanks for bringing up how really ridiculous the statement is about “Defendants’ false and defamatory statements have a negative impact on Plaintiffs’ ability to convert new persons to the faith…” This is a sign that Old MacDonald and his farm really are out in space somewhere with this lawsuit. There is such a brazen tone of self-importance and over-the-top pride in this.

AKA “DO YOU KNOW WHO *I* AM?????”

Headless Unicorn Guy,

I’d be interested in your take on that elder “submission”. With things like “collective governance”, “wonderfully harmonious”, and the one-by-one unanimous rejection of the viewpoint of 3 dissenters, I’m surprised they’re not singing the praises of Comrade Dear Leader.

As Nick above said, Dee, you deserve 2 Christmases, and you will have them – as you know, Old Calendar folks will be celebrating it while you’re in Israel/Jordan 🙂

Have a lovely Nativity Feast with your family. Blessings on your journey, and thanks in advance for the photos and travelogue.

David,

Who writes the Elder updates?
__________
Someone said in Twitter world that it was Luke MacDonald…..

Headless Unicorn Guy: “BLAME CANADA!
BLAME CANADA!
BEFORE ANYONE CAN THINK OF BLAMING US!”

A current hit on China’s Hot 100 chart!

David: Who writes these HBC Elder Executive Committee letters?

The same PR spinmeisters as Beloved Leader Comrade Kim Jong-Un, of course.
With Newspeak just as stilted.
“Just like North Korea, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

Jen: Who writes the Elder updates?
__________
Someone said in Twitter world that it was Luke MacDonald…..

If that’s the case, it makes them all the more self-serving, since his whole career is tied up in the success of the family business.

Interesting analysis and point you bring out here.

IMO this just shows that James MacDonald’s motivation is more or all about money and not the gospel.

A.Stacy: buy the time this is all over we will know his underwear size.

“They don’t say Hanes until I say they say Hanes!”
—Inspector 12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J-pnunLj6c

Root 66: The real key however, is found in their statement of “…negative impact on Plaintiffs’ ability to…raise the funds necessary to operate…”. THAT, good people is truly the entire essence of this law suit!

MacDonald is concerned he may not be able to maintain the McMansion or sports cars.

I think it takes a lot of arrogance for a preacher to state that a blog post or article is responsible for his church not being able to make conversions.

As though God can work only through MacDonald or that one particular church.

I was on an IFB (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist) site years ago that was begging site visitors for donations, so that they could reach un-churched, “pagan,” unsaved areas of Europe with The Gospel.

The IFB guys had a map one could click on to check out the area they were talking about.

I clicked to look at the map, and come to find out, there were already plenty of Christian churches in the area already.

I don’t remember the specific denominations, but there were churches already in the targeted area, such as Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and etc.
The area was only lacking IFB churches.

Their (the IFB-ers) reasoning:
Methodists, Lutherans, etc, are all pagan and cannot and will not share the true, real, correct Gospel with those Europeans.

It has to be the IFB version of the Gospel, you see,
which teaches men really super important stuff, such as but not limited to, such as, they are total hippies and in sin if their hair is past their shirt collar, or teaches women they are in sin if they wear pants. LOL.

I guess, similarly, MacDonald thinks everyone in his community is going to Hell unless they hear the Gospel specifically from his church by attending his church in person on Sunday mornings.

elastigirl:

what is it?are people too tired?or too afraid?have too much to lose to get out of the stream of the party line?

so INCREDIBLY disappointed.

There’s a TWW post from a few years back that discussed how the staff suffer much more than the pew-sitters in churches that have abusive leadership. From the perspective of the people who are present only at the “for-public-consumption” meetings, everything can seem to be wholesome. Provided that the abusive leader is winsome in public presentation and not-too-far-outside-the-bounds-of-orthodoxy in teaching, it can look from the pews like there are no problems at all.

I think that people naturally want to believe the best of a group (and of the group leaders) they have elected to affiliate with, and biblical commands to patience and forbearance reinforce that.

———–

You are right that the routine precautions one would take in any ordinary decision should be followed in deciding whether to affiliate with a church, or in deciding whether to continue in a group in which there have been significant governance changes from what was in place when one originally affiliated. Very few people would be willing to risk investment funds in a for-profit enterprise with opaque finances and unaccountable governance. We should have even higher standards for non-for-profit enterprises that claim to serve God.

“I’m even making homemade Farmer’s cheese for my pierogis.”

Ooh, can I come over? (just kidding)

Now to read the rest of the post.

Samuel Conner,

“I think that people naturally want to believe the best of a group (and of the group leaders) they have elected to affiliate with, and biblical commands to patience and forbearance reinforce that”
++++++++++++++++++

biblical commands to patience and forbearance…

potentially good and honorable for interpersonal relationships

for groups? with reservation. and the scrutiny lever in the ‘on’ position.

“…Randy has not been available to us by text or phone. Based upon what is known about his love for our church and Pastor James, we believe he must have read what Julie Roys published and felt devastated.”

LOL…I can think of another reason Randy has made himself scarce. Man, I hope he goes public with everything he knows at some point. Even if he was forced to sign an NDA upon becoming an elder.

Friend: Please-please-PLEASE let this be in Acts somewhere, or the Sermon on the Mount. How did church membership get so divorced from both common sense and Scripture? Which (to be clear) are compatible.

A text that might be suitable is Proverbs 22:3

In NIV it is rendered:

“The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and pay the penalty.”

Samuel Conner,

Thank you. I decided to have another look at the Sermon on the Mount, and there is a nice clue right at the beginning:

When Jesus saw the crowds, he went up the mountain; and after he sat down, his disciples came to him. Then he began to speak, and taught them…

any chance MacDonald and his clan will pack up the rodeo and move to Florida? I am sure the seniors would like a entertaining show to see on the weekends. maybe he could pray about it…

NJ,

“I think most people lead busy lives and don’t have time to undertake the equivalent of a seminary education, so they rely on holy men…”
++++++++++++++

yes, i’m sure this is correct. scrutiny, though — in the same way they scrutinize other important things in their lives.

or perhaps a spiritual pursuit just not that important for that much effort.

perhaps it’s just doing something God might smile on,…to help tip the scales in the favorable direction for them and their families.

people ARE tired. this could be all they have room for. i understand.

what is harder for me to understand is professional christians who have gotten some kind of education/training. Not all are the spawn of indoctrination centers (some seminaries).

i have observed some pastors who hail from reputable seminaries/schools of divinity who fall for doctrine inventions peddled by big names. ideologies which directly contradict the position papers of their denomination.

which contradict logic, and more importantly philadelphia. and of course that common sense endowed by God.

who fall for the latest church-running strategy du jour, oblivious to the half truths they embrace, the manipulation, how people are exploited by it. not to mention the stupidity of it.

are these professionals also too tired for critical thinking? too worried about money and significance that they just let someone else tell them what to do?

…such a very sad state of affairs.

Daisy
I guess, similarly, MacDonald thinks everyone in his community is going to Hell unless they hear the Gospel specifically from his church by attending his church in person on Sunday mornings.

This is simply not true. I attended harvest for many years. Left a few years back. And although I’ve had my own issues with that church this is not true. I know people who left Harvest and went on to attend other churches who were in good standing with everyone there including the leaders. I know someone whose husband went to one church and she went to another and she was actually urged by the campus pastor to attend the same church as her husband even if that meant leaving Harvest and attending his church. She actually did end up doing just that and stayed in touch with some leaders and never had any issues.

dee: First of all, tell the truth. you don’t pity me, you are angry with me. Telling the truth begins with saying what you mean. I know what I will say. Lord, I found abuse going on your church and I exposed that abuse and brought some comfort to the abused as well as helping others avoid abusive behavior.

Then I would quote Jerome. You do know who he is, don’t you being such an astute observer of sin in your midst. ”A clergyman who engages in business, and who rises from poverty to wealth, and from obscurity to a high position, avoid as you would the plague. ” http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3001052.htm

I would point to all of these men who have taken the tithes of hardworking sacrificial people and used them to build mansions and travel first class, etc.

Then, I would point to the men we have exposed who have sexually abused children and high school studentsand brought them to justice. I would point out all the pastors who used their pulpit to coerce people for sexual favors.

And then, I would look around to see where Bill was when this stuff was going on. I might imagine I would find him cowering in a corner because standing up for truth is a difficult thing because one must put up with bullies hiding behind anonymous accounts like yourself. At least you know my name.

As for your Nathan comment, let me direct you to Todd Wilhelm’s blog “Thou Art the Man. ” Todd is spending his days and retirement making sure that pastors who are child abusers are brought to justice. That is why he is the TWW hero and you are merely a scaredy cat who cannot even identify himself. Todd is the man, you are not. https://thouarttheman.org

I suggest you spend some time in prayer, asking God to show you the pain and suffering that people experience at the hands of abusive churches. He will, if you are man enough to ask.

Aaaaaaand… BOOM! Mic drop.

Katie: This is simply not true. I attended harvest for many years. Left a few years back.

That is the implication of his remarks, that due to negative coverage of his church and him, that conversions were supposedly lost.

“How does a court, presumably made up of people of religious and non-religious persuasions, rule on the claim that some people didn’t become Christians because other people said mean things about JM/HBC?”

Perhaps JM and his attorneys should have a look at Acts 18:12-17 —

“While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews coordinated an attack on Paul and brought him before the judgment seat. “This man is persuading the people to worship God in ways contrary to the Law,” they said. But just as Paul was about to speak, Gallio told the Jews, “If this matter involved a wrongdoing or vicious crime, O Jews, it would be reasonable for me to hear your complaint. But since it is a dispute about words and names and your own law, settle it yourselves. I refuse to be a judge of such things.” And he drove them away from the judgment seat. At this, the crowd seized Sosthenes the synagogue leader and beat him in front of the judgment seat. But none of this was of any concern to Gallio.”

elastigirl: are these professionals also too tired for critical thinking? too worried about money and significance that they just let someone else tell them what to do?

I suspect the lure of money and significance discourages critical thinking. I can’t remember now who said it, but I’ve seen a quote to the effect that it’s very difficult to get a man to understand something, when his livelihood depends on him not understanding it.

I just read TS00’s lengthy comment about the nature of Calvinistic theology, and what happens when one tries to point out the problems with it. I think he’s onto something that people just do not want their comfort zone threatened, and that would be true of everyone, clergy and laity alike. Whether adhering to a comprehensive theological system, or being carried about by every wind of doctrine, every church is going to have some folks who are there for reasons other than critical thinking. When something bad is brought to light, then you have to decide whether to fight the good fight and try to open some eyes, or shake the dust from your sandals and leave.

elastigirl: what is it?
are people too tired? or too afraid? have too much to lose to get out of the stream of the party line?
so INCREDIBLY disappointed.

Yes, yes, yes.

And yes.

Too many faith walks on cruise control, for many reasons. Having reasons things happen doesn’t mean you won’t fall in the ditch. I’m thankful to be much more aware than before, and now try to encourage others to engage and not merely be a passenger.

NJ,

“I suspect the lure of money and significance discourages critical thinking.”
+++++++++++++++

yeah, that sure sounds like Jesus.
—————

“I can’t remember now who said it, but I’ve seen a quote to the effect that it’s very difficult to get a man to understand something, when his livelihood depends on him not understanding it.”
++++++++++++++++

a turning point for the better will be a church that removes revenue from the equation. no salaries. lay ministers and volunteers. for whatever minimal overhead, a collection taken, bills paid right then, zero balance at the end of the day.

i have to think this would catch on. the simplicity of it.

there are organizations out there that are run on volunteers who believe in their cause. they are run fairly well, and they achieve what they set out to do.

Joe,

Bingo!
Well put.

Joe:
This “unconditional support” piece in the Elder Statement… they really didn’t think that verbiage through, did they? They didn’t think of how badly that would come across.

But the truth is, unconditional support for James is exactly what the elder board has given, and exactly why it became a puppet board. Whether by fear or loyalty, they supported him in spite of bad behavior and character. Everyone whose support wasn’t “unconditional” eventually was kicked out.

This is how we got here in the first place. Full support, no matter the condition of James or the church.

It does seem like a hasty job — perhaps it was drafted in haste in view of the emerging “discoveries” in the law suit.

I suspect that what the author may have meant (perhaps not, but this would have had better “optics”) is “unreserved” — no mental reservations.

It sure looks to me like “damage control”, but not very well done.

David,

I have read elsewhere that his son Luke MacDonald writes them.

Root 66: Our former YRR Neo-Cal pastor … I cannot recall a single time during his sermons in which he told the congregation that Jesus loved us and died for us. Their theology simply cannot allow them to say such a thing!

To be honest to the tenets of reformed theology, New Calvinists cannot look at everyone in the world and say “Jesus loves YOU. Jesus died for YOU.” Evangelism and missions are different in the reformed world … it is another gospel, which is not the gospel at all. Ministry to them is to harvest the “elect” rather than reach the lost. If you show up at one of their churches and listen to their theological mumbo-jumbo, you ‘must’ be one of the elect!

Max: To be honest to the tenets of reformed theology, New Calvinists cannot look at everyone in the world and say “Jesus loves YOU. Jesus died for YOU.” Evangelism and missions are different in the reformed world … it is another gospel, which is not the gospel at all. Ministry to them is to harvest the “elect” rather than reach the lost.

Not to hijack the thread, but it is a vital point, as JMac claimed to represent this theology. My beef with Reformed Theology, and preachers like JMac, is the lack of transparency, the lack of clear, upfront declaration of what their Predeterminism genuinely means. If they were open and honest about the necessary assertions of their system, I could simply reject them as holding to a false gospel, and shake my head.

But the fact is that many (most?) modern Calvinist teachers are not open and honest about the very distinctives that separate them from other believers. They hide the ‘scary stuff’, as Sproul liked to call it, in the closet, and preach ‘Jesus loves you’ as if it means what their listeners learned in Sunday School years ago. They do not admit that the sort of ‘love’ they posit is a far different cucumber than that of John 3:16. It is a controlling, deterministic power that creates individuals deliberately for destruction with no chance of redemption, ever, rather than the self-sacrificing love that gives up everything for the sake of the beloved, even knowing that many will reject it.

Not to beat a dead horse, but it is this lack of honesty that has beguiled so many that I know and love, who have been falsely assured, “Oh, we don’t say that; that’s just ‘Hyper-Calvinism'”, when in reality, this strange and cruel ‘love’ is integral to Reformed Theology, despite Barth and others’ attempts to redefine it away.

On one hand, one might just be content to know that most self-claimed ‘Reformed’ do not know or believe the tenets of their system; but, to bring it back to JMac, it is this disconnect between reality and what is publicly said that leads non-critical-thinking, submissive followers into dangerous territory. Whatever leads a teacher to withhold, or soft-peddle, the most essential distinctives of his theological system would also allow him to misrepresent other unpalatable ‘truths’, like, for instance, where the money goes. The ‘simple folk’ don’t need to worry their little heads about such things, but should just trust and submit unconditionally to their authorities. Lack of honesty and transparency are big parts of the problem.

dee: As for the underwear, I think we will learn that he is too big for his britches!

Awesome line, Dee! 😀 And awesome work on this article, as usual.

I hope you’ll have a wonderful trip abroad. Sure wish I could try those pierogis of yours — that’s a food I miss an awful lot, and especially at Christmas.

TS00: Lack of honesty and transparency are big parts of the problem.

Certainly! In that atmosphere, deceivers can flourish.

I don’t want to give that SGM pastor any more publicity here by posting his comments in mine, Dee, but I for one very much thank you for answering him as you did. I am also glad for you that you did not hold the buttons in that he pushed, but rather expressed what is behind them.

In case the translation in the video are difficult to read, here is a translation by Tom Morrison. There are 29(?) verses in the original poem.
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/t%C3%A0ladh-chriosda-t%C3%A0ladh-sl%C3%A0nuighear-christs-lullaby-out-saviours-lullaby.html

Christ’s Lullaby (Our Saviour’s Lullaby)

You are my love, my love and my darling,
you are my treasure and my joy,
you are my beautiful graceful little son.
I am not worthy to be near you.

Allelulia (X4)

My love the eye that gazes kindly,
my love the heart that is filled with love,
althouh you are a baby with nothing at all
there are many strengths growing in you.

Allelulia (X4)

Although you are a helpless baby
you are certainly the King of kings.
You are the true, rightful heir
to the Kingdom of Gracious God.

Allelulia (X4)

dee: It appears the YELP review sums it up quite nicely. Now, I’ll do you a favor and not post who you are even though you were gutless in leaving a comment here.

There ain’t nuthin’ worse for these guys than gettin’ their clock cleaned by a woman.

Hell, I even heard a Bible story once about a fella who ordered another fella to run him through with a sword so’s it wouldn’t get out that a gal was the one cracked open his skull with a mill stone.

the Case of Declining Conversions

District burned over until there’s nothing left?
No more sheep to rustle?
Predator churches killed off all the prey?

Predator churches…
Imagine London from Mortal Engines as a megachurch, rolling through the wasteland gobbling up/dismantling/digesting smaller churches and their peoples…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVpphv6dsAw

Headless Unicorn Guy,

The weak are the meat which the strong do eat…

JDV: ‘Look, Lord, we spread bad reports about anybody and everybody in your church to advance your Kingdom!’

Which is worse… to report on bad things that are happening in the church (spiritual, emotional, financial, and sexual abuse by pastors and church workers) or to be the person who commits those bad things that are being reported???

elastigirl: which contradict logic, and more importantly philadelphia.

Forgive me, my poor head went straight to Gritty, the new mascot for the Flyers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NOFhYje3EU

More seriously, somehow my teenage experiences taught me to drop all of my defenses around Christians. And by Christians I mean the “true” kind who arrogate the term to themselves, expecting a small heaven. I learned this habit from the missionary who worked the halls of my school, and of course from youth group, and later the college fellowship.

How freeing it all was to trust everyone! At youth group, everybody spilled the family secrets in front of a hundred other kids—what a great idea! Dad isn’t saved, no matter how much you beg and plead? Tell everybody, get it off your chest! You used to have s e x until you found Jesus? You saw the light, let’s celebrate!

Not much logic or philadelphia there, but we all fell for it, except for the kids who felt uncomfortable and didn’t come back. They were going to hell, so sad.

Friend,

what’s the current state of your level of trust / defenses with christian people in your faith community?

i don’t reveal much — my, how information spreads. more accurately, assumptions made based on bits of information. often with good intentions.

i’m surprised at how a christian community presumes to be ‘family’. Knowing very personal things about people, many of whom would be angry to know how public their lives have become.

one family is complicated enough. i certainly don’t need another one.

just rambling now…

elastigirl,

a good ramble, and not that much off-topic.

IMO, the attribute “worthy of trust” is one that is “earned”, not “ascribed” (that seems to me to be a lesson of the NT “qualifications for elder/deacon” in the pastoral epistles, but it’s also common sense).

Ascribing trustworthiness to people solely on their self-assertion of fidelity to Christ (or, for that matter, to demonstrated doctrinal orthodoxy or skill in preaching/teaching) opens one up to the kinds of things that are documented at TWW. Character is deeper than words and is discovered only over time.

It’s bit disheartening to think that even in church (and perhaps especially in church) one is wise to adopt a “hermeneutic of suspicion” towards people one does not know well. But that appears to me to be the reality.

Jn 2:24 comes to mind.

linda,

I often wonder whatever happened to being a Christian who just loves Jesus….

Bill: I pity you (whoever is behind the Wartburg Watch). On that great day when our savior returns, what are you going to say to him? ‘Look, Lord, we spread bad reports about anybody and everybody in your church to advance your Kingdom!’

Nice little passive-aggressive threat of Eternal Hellfire there, Bill.

But you know what?

You can only take God pressing his Hell-gun to the back of your head with one up the spout, safety off, and trigger half-pulled for so long until you kill yourself, go crazy, or run like hell. And some 40 years ago, I ran. And so did a lot of the regulars here.

And God’s Anointed came after us with God’s Hell-guns, mouthing the same Christianese as you, making the same spiritual veiled threats as you, crying the same crocodile tears as you with the same Sociopath’s Concern and Compassion(TM).

linda: reformed, old Calvinist, neoCalvinist, and new Calvinist … not all the same and do not all teach the same thing

Agreed. As a non-Calvinist for 70 years, I have never had a real problem with classical (“Old”) Calvinists. I have worshiped alongside them and found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of Christian faith … even though I didn’t agree with the essential tenets of their belief system. As for these “New” Calvinists, they are totally different beasts. They are arrogant, tribal, militant, and aggressive … believing they alone are the sole keepers of truth and have come into the world for such a time as this to restore the gospel that the rest of the church has lost … Gospel = Calvinism to them. From their ranks have come the likes of Driscoll, Piper, Mahaney, MacDonald, Mohler, Dever and a host of other new reformers who stand in opposition to 90+% of Christendom which does not hold to their theology.

elastigirl: what’s the current state of your level of trust / defenses with christian people in your faith community?

Since returning after burnout several years back, I proceed with caution. I try to be kind toward everyone, but take a lot of time making friends. If I don’t know/care for someone, I focus on whatever our shared task is. My attitude these days is that church has to put up with me. To my surprise, this works.

Our family recently had a hardship, and the church gently peppered us with offers of help. We ended up with five clergy home visits (including three Communion visits), four home-cooked dinners, and dozens of emails and text messages. It was revealing and humbling to receive help from the church, a glimpse of the Beatitudes.

Samuel Conner: It’s bit disheartening to think that even in church (and perhaps especially in church) one is wise to adopt a “hermeneutic of suspicion” towards people one does not know well. But that appears to me to be the reality.

I think that boundless expectation can make people vulnerable, leading to disappointment and possibly worse. The Bible says to visit the sick and imprisoned—not visit the sick and imprisoned and come away feeling euphoric and pumped up, like we just did the best! thing! ever! for! Jesus! It’s not about us.

Churches are run by flawed humans worshiping and serving God. In my view, calmer churches tend to be healthier, if only because people don’t have to learn a whole new language of behavior.

elastigirl: compassion-bombing isn’t about compassion. it’s not about helping someone. it’s all about the bombers, and what it does for them.

BINGO

fisher: Anyone who begins their response with “I pity you” is revealing contempt, not concern. Someone really concerned for Dee would write a private letter to her, not post a scalding comment in a chat.

The Book of Proverbs alludes to them as fools with no discretion.

Hey BILL,about two years ago I invited two close friends of mine to come to church with me, they seemed interested in joining my wife and I ,then they asked me “where do you go to church?” I replied “Harvest Bible chapel”. My friend then said “isn’t James McDonald the pastor there”? I said yes he is ,then my friend said “I would never attend that church”. When I asked him why.he told me that his Daughter worked at a car dealership where Jmac purchased his Ford Raptor,and when the vehicle wasn’t ready when Jmac thought it should be he came UNGLUED and balled this poor 19 yr old girl out….Jmac also dressed down my flock leader when he failed to perform a task to Jmacs liking…Jmac also opened up his pulpit to Wolf in sheeps clothing scripture twisting heretic Steven Furtic…Jmac also Gave his stamp of approval to word of faith heretic and motalist T.D Jakes……maybe BILL you should learn to ACT LIKE A MAN,and content for the faith….this isn’t about Dee or her opinions or mine for that matter,its about protecting the sheep from people who would abuse them and “make merchandise out of them”…even as I write this Jmac is asking people to give “sacrificially” to harvests Closer campaign. While He’s Literally living like a KING..the Elder board Flat out lied to the congregation about Jmac “Downsizing his life style in the Feb 2014 Elder report…read it for yourself…sure he sold his 1.9 million dollars mansion and moved into a smaller home in S.Elgin….but the Elder board failed to inform the congregation that it was only until Jmacs Bigger New mansion was completed. I personally asked Elder steve Huston about this and his words were and I quote “havent you ever changed your mind….Hey BILL SHOULD I CONTINUE?????

___

Enriched & Enlightened Religious Media Reporting: “Taking The High Ground, Perhaps?”

Dear Ms. JulieR,

“When you do dance, I wish you a wave o’ the sea, that you might ever do nothing but that…”
*
Happy Holidays!
*
ATB

Sòpy
—
Intermission:
https://youtu.be/KNY8v2LsMz8

;~)

– –

Dan keller,

Thanks for your mention of “little episodes” that can be revealing of a man’s character. I have come across others as I have read through some of the first person accounts at TED.

There are famous quotes down through history about how people treat their “social inferiors”; a quick Google search came up with this one:

“If you want to know what a man’s like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”

This is just good common sense, though some may discount it as coming from the mouth of a female, and a fictional female at that.

So here’s more authoritative assessment:

You know that the rulers in this world lord it over their people, and officials flaunt their authority over those under them. But among you it will be different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must become your slave.

—-

Again, DK, thank you for a helpful glimpse of the man.

Friend,

Yes and Amen. I have noticed how simple, trivial, garden-variety kindness and courtesy in day-to-day interaction with people, even strangers, can visibly encourage people. What a world it would be if this were “second nature” to everyone, and informed the decisions of the powerful as well as the daily interactions of the powerless.

elastigirl:

so incredibly screwed up.i’m so done, for these reasons and so many more.

I have come to have such low expectations of what I am likely to find in institutional church settings that “exile in wilderness” seems preferable. This doesn’t mean that that I think “the Church”, in the sense of “Christ’s body” — the visible manifestation on earth of Jesus’ presence, no longer exists, but it might be the case that the self-described visible churches are not healthy expressions of Jesus. The “laity are just a substrate for the leaders’ ministries” attitude leads to a “body” that is almost all “head”, with only withered and largely inert “limbs,” surely not what Paul envisioned in 1 Corinthians.

I hope that you are not “done” with Jesus Himself, and that you find encouragement along your way from others who may themselves be homeless pilgrims. Perhaps the fact that there are so many of us, and more year by year, is something of a “prophetic word” to the institutions that self-describe as representing Christ on earth.

elastigirl:

but i’m angry at the how church exploits people.the fact of the matter is that church culture has to market and promote this genie Jesus and this supposedly charmed life one does with Jesus — they need something that sells well to draw and keep the ‘giving units’ to pay their salaries.

I’m sure that you are not alone in these experiences of “church ‘under the sun’ ”

I have come to suspect that a significant amount of what is currently indoctrinated to believers is for all practical purposes “magical thinking.” For example, A lot of prayer practice looks to me to be essentially a kind “out-sourcing to God” of what we ought to be doing ourselves.

A word to believers who (unlike me) have not yet thrown up hands in despair over the churches:

If you want people to believe that “God is good”, it may be necessary for you (in the context of your local congregation, if you are still there, but individual action can also be fruitful) to “be the goodness of God” to them. Feed the hungry, defend the fatherless, comfort widows and orphans in their affliction.

I wonder whether our public meetings might actually be distressing to the Searcher of hearts.

He has shown us what is good — to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with YHWH our God.

When did we get away from that?

…and power.

protecting money and power compromises everything.

part of the problem is people born privileged (in a demographic that has power) take their power for granted.

when the applecart of their power is upset, it’s jarring. it’s frightening. the way things looked and felt is suddenly all different. the world and their place in it has all gone crazy, it seems.

they panic. something must be done. they consolidate their power, build bulwarks of ideology to protect it.

they seem unaware of the following (or at least seem not to understand it):

“Let us realize the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice”, Martin Luther King, Jr.

Equality for all human beings is simply where things are headed (well, they’ve been there for a while, now).

it’s awfully hard to even understand what it means to do justice and love mercy when one is protecting their domain from underprivileged persons for whom the power differential is equalizing.

Muff Potter,

well, the company is comforting.

I would like someone who can really get the facts on some stuff at harvest. Like… how many people actually attended the harvest bible fellowship seminary training while it existed. How many churches were specifically birthed out of the HBF seniniary church planting training? I know they say there 150 Chris plants but did all of these come out of the seminary training? Did people pay to attend the seminiary church planting training or were they supported by Harvest to attend? Once they graduated the seminary church planting seminary where they given money to start a church or did they have to start it from scratch on their own? Once a church was in HBF did they have to pay money to Harvest and if so how much? Then it would be nice is someone who understand budgets could do an explanation on harveat 2017 fiscal budget report. https://www.harvestbiblechapel.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/2017-Audited-Financial-Statement.pdf

elastigirl:
Samuel Conner,

” “be the goodness of God” to them. Feed the hungry, defend the fatherless, comfort widows and orphans in their affliction.”
++++++++++++

i truly don’t see what sitting in a well-lit auditoreum painted taupe with a really good sound system and and a good band, people with stage presence, followed by a sermon have anything remotely to do with what you just proposed.

Or with “what is good and what YHWH requires” of us.

I think that there is a NT connection that gets lost in a lot of present-day practice: Hebrews 10, where people are called to “not forsake group assemblies”, but to assemble and “encourage one another to love and good deeds”.

IMO, too often, “encouragement/exhortation to love and good deeds” is de-emphasized or entirely absent, eclipsed or replaced with “exhortation to get behind the pastor’s ministry expansion vision, which is the will of God for you”, which may not look very much at all like “love and good deeds” in the NT sense of the terms, or like “the will of God” as one can discern it in the precepts of Scripture.

What was so important to Jesus and to Paul: “love one another” and the many “one another” implications of that within “body life” of the churches. As has been noted in comments in the next post, the popular “9Marks” movement does not explicitly include “love” as one of the marks of a healthy church, in spite of that fact that Jesus predicted that this would be the thing that would be the distinguishing mark of His followers (and that, historically, actually was).

(Maybe the markists they have a point, though: “love” is the mark of people who follow Jesus; the “church” in practice is a different beast altogether. That might be a lesson of our time. I could go along with their definitions if they changed “healthy” to “effective, for some definitions of ‘effective’ “.)

I do think that there numerous individual believers in these assemblies and outside of them who exhibit beautiful spiritual fruit in the Galatians 5:22-3 sense; but the institutions themselves and too many of their officers IMO are working at cross purposes with the Spirit.

;~)

Dear Elastigirl,

P.S.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oZvKJl1kK8g

;~)

Samuel Conner,

“IMO, too often, “encouragement/exhortation to love and good deeds” is de-emphasized or entirely absent, eclipsed or replaced with “exhortation to get behind the pastor’s ministry expansion vision, …”
++++++++++++

in church culture, size does matter. due to christian cultural norms every pastor i’ve ever been associated with has been a man, and every one of them was focussed on size. one even admitted to me that a small church is embarrassing. i think symbolic virility vs. impotence factor in at some deep level (i’m sure there’s a freudian connection to some degree).

these were good, decent men (most of them). excellent human beings. but somehow blind to how they turned people into pawns for building their stature.

i’m not trying to make a case for women versus men pastors (although i’m all for gender-free qualifications). these are simply my observations, and trying to make sense of them.
—————-

“What was so important to Jesus and to Paul: “love one another”…. Jesus predicted that this would be the thing that would be the distinguishing mark of His followers (and that, historically, actually was).”
+++++++++++++

i observe 2 things:

1) ‘love one another’ is a very simple statement. anyone on the street of any city in the world understands what this means.

it’s so simple there just isn’t enough there for sermons. there isn’t enough there for those who put their name to books to fill their quota for their publishing contracts.

but pastors have to come up with 20 to 60(!) minutes of material. ‘writers’ have to come up with things to write about.

so the very basic premise is analyzed and re-analyzed into meatier systems of ideas. convoluted systems, that make them sound so enlightened and guru-like.

it’s like taking a toothpick and re-engineering it (with other toothpicks and glue, wire, rubber bands, string…) into something so fancy and complex that surely is worth a good deal more than just one boring toothpick.

the fancy contraption is simply not necessary. it is much less effective, and causes a new set of problems.

the one boring toothpick is much easier and does a much better job.

2) in christian culture “love” has been redefined and twisted into all sorts of grotesque things.

in analyzing what i’ve experienced and what i’ve observed many times over, these grotesque things pretty much always foster power in one person over another.

how convenient. 😐

[….i’m sure 1) and 2) are related.]

elastigirl:
Samuel Conner,

” “be the goodness of God” to them. Feed the hungry, defend the fatherless, comfort widows and orphans in their affliction.”
++++++++++++

i truly don’t see what sitting in a well-lit auditoreum painted taupe with a really good sound system and and a good band, people with stage presence, followed by a sermon have anything remotely to do with what you just proposed.

I don’t either, which is why I don’t do it any more. I simply can’t.

Sue:
… Then it would be nice is someone who understand budgets could do an explanation on harveat 2017 fiscal budget report. https://www.harvestbiblechapel.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/2017-Audited-Financial-Statement.pdf

Sue,
This is an annual financial report, not a budget report. A budget report would compare plan (budget) to actual. This shows only actual. That said, here are the pieces:
Page 1: Cover sheet – no comments needed
Page 2: Table of content – no comments needed
Page 3: Auditor’s report – boilerplate, nothing worth note here
Page 4: Balance sheet (assets and liabilities, or in other words “owned and owed”)
Page 5: Income statement (income and expense)
Page 6: Cash flow statement (how cash was affected)
Pages 7 and following: Notes that explain pages 4-6 in more detail.

On multiple pages, restrictions are from donations that had a purpose restriction when given. They can only be used for that purpose, and once so used are first released from restriction and then expended as they type of expense they are. There are no permanent endowment funds with permanent restrictions shown.

Page 4, the Balance Sheet. Cash is down a bit over $3 Million (M). Broadcast time receivable is a weird line item discussed in a note. Long-term debt is mortgages and the like. These are down almost $2.5M, suggesting net payment of debt.

Page 5, Income statement. You asked about tuition, there is a line item here – $4.5M in 2017, down about 2% from 2016.

Compensation (employee payroll) of $16.9M is up $2.3M from prior year, almost 15%. Interest expense of $2.55M is basically flat from $2.63M prior year.

The issue here is $46.1M in income against $50.1M in expense. That is a deficit of $4M. I used to work in Financial Planning & Analysis for my employer, and the issue appears to be on the expense side, not the income side, as income is up $3.4M but expense is up $7.5M. Most of the income growth is a transfer of $2.3M from an affiliate, while only $0.7M of the expense growth is transfer to another organization. Taking those out income is up $1.1M while expense is up $6.8M, and the real deficit appears to be $5.6 Million.

But in any large organization, there are items like depreciation that are real but don’t affect cash. (Depreciation is the wearing out of property, leading to repairs/replacement later.) So next we get page 6, a cash flow statement. Routine operations actually yielded $954K in cash. But $1.6M was used to invest in more land, buildings, and equipment. And $2.4M was used to pay down the principal on long term debt. So across all activities $3.1M of cash was used up.

-review of notes to follow in other posts-

Sitting back as someone with Financial Planning & Analysis experience (though it is not my current role), the organization is in trouble but not in a crisis. A more meaningful 2017 deficit (free of affiliate changes) of $5.6M, expenses growing faster than income, and net cash consumption of $3.1M are all negative indicators. With their size and $5.6M of cash and equivalents at year end, there is time to address this.

Absent significant improvements between then and now, 2022 looks to be the possible year of serious hurt. They will both have to start paying cash for the TV broadcasts on TBN and also deal with refinancing the biggest mortgage. The mortgage they should be able to handle, but the financial statement gives no present indication of where they could come up with the cash flow to pay for the broadcast time they are currently receiving as payment for a prior property sale.

elastigirl: compassion-bombing isn’t about compassion. it’s not about helping someone. it’s all about the bombers, and what it does for them.

The early South Park episode “Conjoined Fetus Lady” (S2E5) is all about that subject.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjoined_Fetus_Lady

being the target of a compassion-bomb is enough to retreat to the showers with a metal scrubbing brush.

Like the school nurse with a disfiguring birth defect (a form of incomplete twinning) in the above South Park episode.

elastigirl,

I can really relate to all you wrote, it’s very similar to my experience. I don’t say too much to believers I know because I don’t want to discourage anyone but I think there are so many myths rolled up into the Christian life that don’t stand up to any scrutiny. Faith has to be based on something beyond all that. I appreciated hearing your experience, makes me feel less alone.

Katie,

No one is saying HBC doesn’t have good ministries and good Christ loving people in its membership. I know because I was a member for 6 1/2 years and worked in various ministries and gave specifically. But I left because how the elders were treated in 2013. As I look back on the time at HBC, I feel like I was used and a fool for not realizing how MacDonald is. I regret ever joining HBC.

Sòpy,

Thank you so much, Sopy.

“He is kind to all those who put their trust in Him”.

i have to radically redefine kindness in highly partial & grotesque terms for this to be true.

i pray weekly with friends. it is a spiritually nourishing experience.

i pray and have faith in my own way, that doesn’t match theirs. i would be pretending if i did otherwise. but i keep my perspectives to myself. only my closest confidants are privy.

actually, you all here know more than my prayer group friends do.

(there’s amazing freedom in anonymity for transparent self-disclosure and helpful feedback)

Amen elastigirl I couldn’t agree more…. “The machine”is always looking for ways to get the sheep to feed it,instead of looking for ways to feed the sheep… hence the G-5 campaign ,the closer campaign ect…The beast must be fed….Jesus asked Peter do you love me? then feed my sheep…NOT do you love me then get the sheep to feed The Evangelical Industrial Complex and make millionaire Celebritie Pastors.

Dan keller: “The machine” is always looking for ways to get the sheep to feed it, instead of looking for ways to feed the sheep … The beast must be fed …

Hmmmm … puts a whole new spin on “mark of the beast.”

Dan keller,

We attended HBC for a few months when we first moved to Elgin. We left, not liking the “leadership culture” of the church.

A few months later, my husband came home laughing – he was near the entrance to HBC when a Ford Raptor passed him on a double lane – just blew right by him illegally. And he thought to himself, “Is that an entitled 19 year old kid in his dad’s Raptor, or is that James MacDonald?”

Spoiler alert: James MacDonald.

Yes. Listen to the audio.
http://julieroys.com/james-macdonald-removes-walk-word-tv-radio-amid-controversy/#comments