Since 2014, PJ Smyth has devoted himself to establishing Advance, a family of churches committed to planting and strengthening churches, currently working on five continents.
Yesterday several interesting comments were made in regards to last Friday’s post entitled Is Covenant Life Church Changing Its Name and Asking Congregants to Reaffirm Their Membership? (see screen shots below)
The discussion peaked my interested, so I decided to do some digging regarding the Advance Movement. I first heard of it last year when the organization held its leadership week at Covenant Life Church. (see screen shots below)
The 2018 Advance North America Conference will be held later this year in California. Speakers will be P.J. Smyth, Alan Frow, and Donnie Griggs. You can read their bios here.
P.J. Smyth’s more detailed bio can be found on the Covenant Life Church website. The following portion was especially interesting.
As you can see, P.J. Smyth is the founder of the Advance Movement – a family of churches committed to planting and strengthening churches on five continents!
He also remains part of Newfrontiers, which is led by Terry Virgo, who happened to speak at CLC just yesterday. His sermon was entltled Identity in Christ, and in his message Virgo focused on grace.
According to the website, only 15 congregations have partnered with Advance here in North America, and 11 more are looking. Obviously, Covenant Life Church is one of them. Clearly, if CLC’s lead pastor is the founder of the movement, those CLC members who recommit have no real say in whether they will join Advance. (see screen shot below)
One of the congregations that is partnering with the Advance Movement is located here in North Carolina. It’s called One Harbor Church in Morehead City. I remember when this congregation was first established because our family has a beach condo in the vicinity. Funny thing, it used by be affiliated with Acts 29 (see screen shot below).
Years ago when we would go to dinner at the Morehead City waterfront, we would see the church in its old location (a store front). I used to joke with my daughters about attending this church incognito to see how much influence Mark Driscoll had on the pastors.
In the last few years, so much has changed with Driscoll and the church planting organization he founded (Acts 29). One Harbor Church is now part of Advance, and its lead pastor, Donnie Griggs, is one of the leaders of the movement. Griggs’ church now has a bigger facility in Morehead City and is planting other congregations in nearby towns – Beaufort, Swansboro, and Havelock. The Beaufort congregation meets in a small historic church, and the Swansboro group is just getting started in a small building, which we happened past when we visited the quaint town last fall. Cherry Point (near Havelock) is home to the largest Marine Corps Air Station in the world, so it will be interesting to see what happens with the church plant there.
In our upcoming post, we will explore the Advance website and discuss what is expected of a congregation when it decides to partner with this church planting organization. In the meantime, check out the Two-Minute Version. Here are a few highlights (see screen shots below).
First?
So… what exactly do these member churches get for tithing 2-10% to Advance?
(And what if they don’t have Elders to determine that 1-3%?)
Same repackaged man made system which needs YOUR money to advance the Gospel. There are bound to be massive manipulations in these churches.
I’m so exhausted by being in a church-planting church. I’ve said this before, but statistics show 90% of people who go to a church plant are from other churches. Stop trying to reinvent everything and help support a local church tut is struggling. Or don’t and fellowship with the Christians you meet along the way. A “church planting church” will always emphasize church growth and doctrinal purity ahead of everything else. They have figured out the right way to church and they will show the world. I guarantee they won’t be using their resources to take care of poor people (which James calls true religion).
@ Mercy:
“When your well being is tied up in someone else’s performance, you WILL manipulate them.”
Wayne Jacobsen
So get every one of your marks to give you 10% of their hard earned cash and give half to us. Isn’t this just another pyramid scheme?
Link to P.J. Smyth’s Quick Start Parenting Guide, his pushing of ‘smacking’ is quite disturbing, especially given his father’s history of abusing young men.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160624132532/http://www.solidground.org.za/retired/images/Downloads/Quick_Start_Parenting_0.pdf
page 15
“All about smacking
May I say at the outset that if the law of you country forbids this form of discipline, then I would recommend that you either fully obey the law, or move to another country where the government are not such a bunch of controlling sissies.”
page 16
“We use a wooden spoon.”
Ricco wrote:
Truth
Recognised, suitable leadership for 100, Alex
srs wrote:
They get the privilege of attending international Advance conferences (for a price) and listening to the pearls of wisdom rolling off the tongue of the smooth talker PJ Gantry….er make that Elmer Smyth…I mean PJ Smyth.
The very same Smyth who, when it came to light that his father is a lifelong pedeophilic abuser of young men, quickly told his new church, Covenant Life Church of Gaithersburg, that he had no knowledge of any of this. He revised his statement twice, admitting he knew slightly more than originally stated.
Meantime, I had been in contact with a pastor who was part of a committee of 4 pastors and a lawyer that spoke to PJ Smyth and John Smyth concerning the abuse of young men at a summer camp in Zimbabwe, as well as charges of culpable homicide brought against John Smyth for the drowning of Guide Nyachuru at the camp. (In some very nefarious circumstances the charges were dropped and John Smyth moved to South Africa.) PJ Smyth was a leader at this camp. When reminded of this meeting PJ Smyth claimed he could not remember the content of the discussion he had with the committee of five men, he could hardly even recall what the building looked like! So poor PJ took some time off in an attempt to be transparent, realizing to his dismay, that he’d forgotten significant things.
CLC elders stood firmly behind their new pastor and apparently believed his claim of amnesia. They held a church meeting and sold the bill of goods to the gullible congregation.
But tell me in all honesty, who among you would forget a meeting you and your father attended together to discuss charges of brutal beatings of young men and the charge of culpable homicide?
Yet this is the guy who is supposedly qualified to be the senior pastor at CLC/Christ Church Metro and also lead an international organization of churches called Advance?
Sorry folks, number me among the skeptics that would have nothing to do with this man. He needs to come clean and escort his father from his reclusive life in South Africa back to the UK to answer charges of abuse there.
For further details see “PJ Smyth’s Convenient Memory Loss” at https://thouarttheman.org/2017/02/19/pjsmythmemoryloss/
From the ‘expectations’ page:
“Are church planting and strengthening efforts optional or obligatory for partner churches?
We don’t like words like “obligatory,” because they imply a “we have to,” rather than a “we get to,” motivation. We run Advance on a “we get to” motivation, as this reflects the motivation of the gospel. Churches choose to become partner churches because they are convinced by Scripture that they should participate in planting and strengthening churches, and therefore eagerly join in this worthy endeavor.”
One wonders how much they won’t like “obligatory” if a payment is missed or delayed.
“How many visits will a partner church receive? … Thirdly, it depends on the availability of people and financial resources.”
From the Power of Partnership section:
“Does Advance function like a denominational grouping?
Denominations operate differently, so this is a hard question to answer. However, we find that adhering closely to all four aspects of New Testament partnership enables us to enjoy the best aspects of belonging to a denomination, while avoiding the worst.”
Danger, Will Robinson! Not exactly denying the denominational-riffic “big idea”. How many average church members will know about this aspect — let alone be sufficiently apprised — prior to implementation?
From the introduction of ‘how we plant churches together’
“We can only say, “Our movement should be planting more churches,” if by that we mean, “We need to make sure that our church develops and deploys more plant leaders, support leaders, and finance.””
Since they are talking about replicating the Acts church experience, I’d love to see where developing and deploying more finance was articulated in the book of Acts. I remember a lot of preaching the Gospel, and some reference to setting aside for widows and revering the poor, but I don’t recall a disproportionate focus on the finance side.
From Values:
Elder-Led — “We believe that churches should be led by a called and capable team of elders with a team leader who is “first among equals.””
Telling that this quote is usually from a Latin phrase for authority– just not a quote from the Bible, if I’m not mistaken.
From the Authority etc. section
“Accountability — The plurality and accountability of a local eldership team goes a long way to self-correcting internal blind spots and weaknesses, but not the whole way. A humble and wise eldership team will give a “standing invitation” (more on this below) to one or two trusted Advance leaders to answer, at least in part, the Roman poet, Satires’, question, “Quis custodiet ipsos custodies?” (Who guards the guards?).”
Further down: “This doesn’t mean that they will show up unannounced (!), but it does mean that they will lovingly watch your back. … By becoming a partner church, the local elders are issuing this kind of standing invitation to the Advance team.”
Getting Latin on us again. We can see here that while the local elders are the highest authority, Advance invites themselves into the authority arena with suitably nebulous language, which of course can be strengthened over time as needed. (Funny how the authority part is never laissez-faire.)
And of course, Finance:
“We are not embarrassed to provoke churches to excellence in the grace of giving (2 Cor. 8:7), both for their local mission and our wider mission.”
Wouldn’t it be amazing to hear quotes from Paul concerning not wanting to be a burden, tentmaking, etc, and Gospel quotes about those,being sent out lacking nothing, etc.?
“The vast majority of our pooled finance goes to planting and strengthening. There may be times when movement funds are given to crisis relief or ministry to the poor, but we believe these areas are better handled at local church level, or sometimes hub level.”
Planting, as in physical buildings? Strengthening, as in leadership,training and “helping” appoint elders, per the ‘Strengthening’ section? Where exactly was the bureaucractic-heavy model in the Acts church they say they’re emulating?
Plus, as we’ve got the Internet, email, streaming etc, shouldn’t we be cutting overhead on this part and streamlining in the 21st century — which includes costly edifices built from scratch or massively renovated — to leave monies available for real needs? This is an especially apt question when they’re talking about taking consistent giving percentages.
“WHAT AMOUNTS GO WHERE
“We encourage partner churches to sow at least 10% of their monthly income towards church planting and ministry to the poor, under the oversight of their local eldership team. We understand it may take some churches time to work up to this level, but we warmly encourage churches in this direction.”
Other than making me gag or,the euphemistic language, remember that this is the “foot in the door” phase. One wonders what warm encouragement will look like a couple of seasons from now once they’re more denominational-riffic, complete with conferences, seminaries, bookstores, lecture series, rotating elder authoritarians-for-hire, etc.
“We endeavor to keep an approximate 50/50 split between planting and strengthening.”
Again, have a gander on the site as to what “strengthening” consists of.
“We have high levels of accountability for global and continental funds, including detailed and transparent annual reports and audits where appropriate.”
“Where appropriate” for the win!
“We encourage eldership teams to have a line item in the budget to fund the travel of the lead couple and other eldership couples to Advance gatherings and initiatives.”
Speaks for itself.
“We also ask them to consider their spending in this area a priority, because the health of the lead couple and the eldership couples might be the most important investment that a church can make.”
Plus, if they are in person at the conferences, they will be better able to learn about books/studies/lecturers and other initiatives from the Advance health strengtheners.
Conclusion: I don’t know these guys from Adam. However, I see the usual red flags of a parachurch organization that has the hallmarks of,authority, financial priorities, and so forth that have too often worked against their stated goal of replicating the Acts church model. In fact, without proper oversight, it has the makings of a parasite to an unsuspecting host. Where oversight and transparency for the likes of a group like this would occur was conspicuously absent from the partnership section (no listing of financials were found in the site).
“We believe local elders are the highest human authority in the local church . . .”
There it is. The all important highest human authority is the elders or elder. That sentence is nicely set off so everyone can see it clearly.
Run people run. Have nothing to do with these men or the women who support them.
Bridget wrote:
Yes, run! When I was younger i carried such guilt for suspecting that i had a rebellious spirit. Raised RC i walked away from all that hierarchal garbage that sought to strangle me. I now look at that bent as God-given protection. Any church that tries to impose the iron fist of authority is a huge warning! I taught my children to always question authority, but do it respectfully. We must teach our children to think, to question, to be brave enough to follow their own path. Not sure what we can do about adults who have been so conditioned. Encourage them to think, to question, to be brave enough to follow their own path. It’s never too late. These systems must be rejected and we must push back by walking swiftly away.
Whether it be SGM, CLC, Advance, or Acts29, the church planting frenzy in America is more about planting reformed theology than Gospel churches … more about establishing a cult of personality than pursuing the Great Commission … more about celebrating Calvin than Christ. As the scandals break, these groups have to keep reinventing themselves to keep their idols on the throne. Their success is directly proportional to the number of gullibles they can attract to their “ministries”.
Jerome wrote:
Reminds me of Piper’s advice to women being abused: “I think she endures verbal abuse for a season, she endures perhaps being smacked one night.”
Mercy wrote:
IOW, building a dynasty for the pleasure of the dynast(s) or don(s) or royalty or icon (“an object of uncritical devotion : idol”). Of course, “advancing the Gospel” alludes to flying the globe in the royals’ private plane with their personal pilot with reservations at a top drawer penthouse.
while these type of overpriced systems spring up in most churches today that suck the life’s blood out of a congregation both financially and spiritually, by giving them the impression that this one more new way of sharing the Gospel is going to work, there is also a movement of young adults that are fed up with the programs who are committing themselves to go empty handed into the mission field to do Gods work quietly and sacrificially. There are families that have decided to quit trying to change the institutional church and simply get down to the business of loving God and loving ones neighbor as themselves. Maybe this mess is causing us all to humbly reevaluate our own personal witness for Christ on a moment by moment basis. This new info is reminiscent of the politics of the day, same message different package.
I went to the web page for the “Advance North America” meeting and there was a link to the “UK Elders and Wives” meeting in May. That says all I need to know. They’re still going to treat women as second class.
Donna wrote:
“Coming soon to a venue near you…”
Donna wrote:
Now, that’s a “new reformation” that we should all get behind!
Max wrote:
This may be the key.
And juxtaposed against the aforementioned pseudo reforms that establish covenants, gender roles and hierarchies amid manmade networks.
Why am I suddenly thinking of a multilevel marketing scheme?
As a life long Baptist, I am absolutely convinced that the highest earthly authority in a local church is the laity, and the pastor and other lay leaders should not be making decisions other than how to carry out the will of the laity. That is called the “Priesthood of All Believers”, an idea well derived from scripture.
@ Max:
As usual your comment is spot on!
Max wrote:
Yes!
@ An Attorney:
Yes!
@ refugee:
Each church is a PROFIT CENTER.
From my experience, authority and mission resonate strongly with the segment of the military crowd drawn to church. So that plant near the marine base may do well, even in the face of a transient population.
Deb wrote:
Sadly true.
Jerome wrote:
Because the church is the only place for controlling sissies…
@ Deb:
A business.
In theory and legally functioning as a non-profit.
Whether it be a screaming social justice warrior at a university near you or a pew sitter that gives their money to some empire builder, there is evidently a strong yearning for us to be part of something bigger. Unfortunately those desires are easily co-opted by scam artists who prey on our better selves to further their designs.
“four pillars of partnership…” are actually five: 1)doctrine, 2) values, 3)a shared mission – which, by the way is subdivided into 2 categories of a)planting and b)strengthening, 4)genuine relationship 5)recognized/gifted leadership. But who’s counting?
So, is that 4, 5, or 7 pillars? I’m confused.
And…who are we strengthening? The plant? The “mother-church?” The community? The “widows and orphans” that James exhorts us to come alongside? Ourselves?
“recognized, suitably gifted leadership” is a phrase that bothers me. Does “recognized” mean elite, headliner, celebrity leadership? Or simply – elected official that we all agree to follow? And “gifted” – does that mean…special? Which of the disciples were special? Or are they hanging everything on “suitably” to mean…equipped to do the job at hand. If it is that – then there is no need to insert the so-called 4th pillar at all, nor call attention to it. They simply need someone willing and capable to manage the “business” side of the organization, such that it is. Could be a lay person. Could be volunteer hours; evenings only.
“see the document on our website entitled Expectation and Joining.” Okay, I’m being picky now but…why not just say “titled?” Is this the proverbial Freudian slip? Do they feel “entitled?” *wink*
@ JDV:
Wow. Not only do the member churches and church members get to be abused (Jump on the bandwagon now! Don’t wait! Don’t miss the opportunity!), but they get to enjoy it, too!
Maybe I should say they are obligated to enjoy it.
It brings to mind a disturbing scene of a brutal beating that I remember from a movie some time ago. Whack! “Thank you, sir, may I have another?”
(Which, considering the involvement of the Smyths, is sadly appropriate.)
@ JDV:
Spot on.
Of course, they’re just building on Acts and the epistles of Paul where collections were taken up to fund paid vacations, er, conference travel for elder couples.
No?
Gee, I wonder if they can wangle some of those conferences to be on cruise ships or upscale resorts?
Max wrote:
I’m not so sure… I am getting the impression that it’s not so much about Calvin as it is about how Calvinism appears to be the perfect vehicle to establish control and ensure a steady and ever-increasing income for the upline.
I have no experience with Advance, but I have very real experiences with Mr. Virgo’s group Newfrontiers. In case anyone is wondering, Newfrontiers is SGM is Acts 29 is CLC is T4G is pretty much whatever version of abusive, man-centric, authoritarian neocalvinist strain of belief systems you can cite, because they’re all closely related, they all play musical chairs with members and leadership, they all attend the same conferences and all seem to share the same spirit. They are the same basic tribe with different names.
I’ve related it here before, the Newfrontiers at which I was an elder was led by two former SGM leaders. There was no room for dissent, but horrible things were done with nice words and smiles, and it was only behind closed doors, when plausible denial and defamation would protect the leaders, that the masks would start to drop. It was an extremely abusive place and it imploded inside of five years, but the scars for those who were members don’t go away easily. My adult daughter now hates church in large part as a result of her experiences there (thank God she hasn’t turned her back on Jesus, though). Children of the leaders have grown into becoming abusive personalities themselves, fallen into drug abuse and, in one case I know of, hard core atheism.
If any of you are in a church even considering such an organization, please get away, you’re almost certainly in an unsafe place.
Max wrote:
I quoted this to a member of a Piper-worshipping 9marks church and she could not believe me, even though I said it was on video, on the internet, in his own voice and person.
@ Thersites:
Red flags:
– hierarchies of authority and power
– gender class systems
– convenant signing
– tithe/pledge commitment
– “Biblical” counseling
– not reporting abuse to law enforcement, cover-ups
– arrested development “leaders” (neither act their age nor respect social boundaries)
– atmospheric trendy youth group
– entertainment “worship”
– homogeneous leadership
What else?
Deb wrote:
JYJames wrote:
All the more reason to get the 501(c)(3) laws and regulations changed.
@ Law Prof:
“horrible things were done with nice words and smiles”
Yes. And they don’t even have to be associated with 9marks, SGM, Advance, NewFrontiers, or any of the big boys. They can be an independent church, or part of a mainline denomination.
Buyer beware.
refugee wrote:
Next time you talk to her, give her this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OkUPc2NLrM
@ Max:
Thanks!
@ refugee:
On the link I provided you upstream, Piper’s introduction to this subject also bothers me:
“What should a wife’s submission to her husband look like if he’s an abuser? (Chuckle)”
The “oh my” chuckle is sick! Piper is a disturbed little man. It’s equally disturbing that multitudes of folks worship him!!
refugee wrote:
And then, if she be a true believer in the Cult of Piper, be prepared for her reply: “It doesn’t matter, we’re all sinners saved by grace anyway–and I’m the worst sinner I know…What of King David, didn’t the Lord use him in spite of adultery and murder?…What of Paul, wasn’t he the least of all the apostles the chief among sinners?…So who are you to judge?…So how many people have you reached with the Gospel?…So have you started a church as big as Pipers’s and preached as many life-changing messages as he has?…Why you’re no better than a Pharisee picking up a stone to kill the woman caught in adultery…You’re just an accuser of the brethren…YOU’RE THE WORST SINNER I KNOW!”
JYJames wrote:
Which aren’t exactly oozing love. I have yet to hear a member of such church say “Man, those church leaders sure do love me!” Heck, they probably have never talked to them!
(Off topic.
I did post this to an older thread the other night but am not sure how many saw it.)
Gendered Visions of The Piper Pastorate
https://womenintheology.org/2018/02/21/gendered-visions-of-the-piper-pastorate/
A few quotes from that page:
But something about today’s complementarianism doesn’t stick to the typical conservative script. Its ethos feels fiercely political, though many find this hard to see because it still maintains a smokescreen of spiritual devotion that presents male-female relations as a matter of piety or orthodoxy rather than gender politics proper.
… we should start understanding complementarianism as a men’s issue rather than a women’s issue, since it is mostly men who seem to instigate these gender debates about how women practice ministry.
@ JDV:
“Denominations operate differently, so this is a hard question to answer. However, we find that adhering closely to all four aspects of New Testament partnership enables us to enjoy the best aspects of belonging to a denomination, while avoiding the worst.”
This means that they want the control that goes with being a denomination but without the accountability.
@ Law Prof:
Yep, the Pied Piper has cast a spell over them … he can do no wrong.
@ JDV:
Excellent analysis, JDV!
Church planting and now, the church “RE-planting” movement is becoming more and more of a thing in our area. Church re-planting involves basically handing over the keys of the church to a bunch of millennials who are so much more “spiritual” (little ‘s’) than those of us who’ve been worshiping, witnessing and declaring Jesus for decades. They prey on older congregations, hoping they are desperate or struggling. They come in and give the church a “new” (reformed) direction and if you don’t like it, you’re out of luck.
Our church was approached on a number of occasions to see if we wanted to “partner” with another larger church. Of course, “partnering” means, “sit down, shut up and hand over your money!” Wisely, after seeing what happened to some of their previous “partners”, our church declined such offers. No thanks!
This trend is occurring because the kids coming out of seminaries who have been brainwashed into reformed theology found out that trying to take over a church from people who actually read their bibles and think for themselves is much more work than they’re willing to do. Therefore, they start “new” churches (complete with pre-fab, elder-led polity and neo-cal doctrine) right down the street from the older ones, and siphon off people who would have otherwise gone to the older church. Or–they “re-plant” in that old church and take the driver’s seat.
This is happening near our church because we refused to “partner” with them and I can’t believe the gall of these guys who are doing it. They are literally not even a half of a mile from our church! Their consciences have surely been seared with a hot iron…and doing it in Jesus’ name, to boot!
This is how the SBC is “planting” new churches now, and I think it is utterly useless.
The wolves are not outside the church, they are more often than not standing in the pulpit!
JYJames wrote:
– pastors/elders with spiky hair and skinny jeans
– pastors/elders who spend time in coffee shops, but don’t visit hospitals and nursing homes
– preponderance of ESV Bibles
– everyone must join a “LifeGroup” (indoctrination, monitoring)
Root 66 wrote:
New Calvinists in my area call traditional (non-Calvinist) churches they takeover through stealth and deception “Re-plants”.
How much of “Planting Churches” is just a Jobs Program for Preacher-Boys and Mega-Apostle Wanna-bes?
@ Root 66:
You see it Root 66! It’s amazing how many Southern Baptists don’t.
Root 66 wrote:
Like putting a Lowe’s next door to every Home Depot.
Or a Starbucks on every block.
Or a hundred dot-com startups in a field that can support only two or three.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
As Al Mohler would say “Where else are they going to go?” If it weren’t for SBC’s church planting program, many Southern Seminary graduates would have no where to go. Currently, Southern Baptists are spending $60 million per year to plant 1,000 new churches per year … but it’s really about planting reformed theology, not churches.
Forrest wrote:
Feature, not Bug.
A joke editorial in Computerworld around 40 years ago said that Power and Responsibility are an inverse relationship, and the goal of any organization is Absolute Power and Zero Responsibility, i.e. Caesar Caligula or Kim Jong-Un.
Deb wrote:
Exactly! More interested in profits than prophets.
Law Prof wrote:
Sociopaths are obsessed with Politeness and Niceness.
“Are we SMIIIIIIILING Today?”
Law Prof wrote:
“[Hell is] an official society held together entirely by fear and greed. On the surface, manners are normally suave. Rudeness to one’s superiors would obviously be suicidal; rudeness to one’s equals might put them on their guard before you were ready to spring your mine. For of course “Dog eat dog” is the principle of the whole organisation. Everyone wishes everyone else’s discrediting, demotion, and ruin; everyone is an expert in the confidential report, the pretended alliance, the stab in the back. Over all this their good manners, their expressions of grave respect, their “tributes” to one another’s invaluable services form a thin crust. Every now and then it gets punctured, and the scalding lava of their hatred spurts out.”
– C.S.Lewis, Preface to The Screwtape Letters
refugee wrote:
This definitely seems a better fit, Refugee.
refugee wrote:
“Fake News From Librul Media”?
The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs, and Won’t Be Taken In.
Max wrote:
Yes, our former Neo-Cal YRR pastor tried that, too. Fortunately, several in the church figured out the direction he was going and he tucked tail and ran! I think John 3:19-20 pretty much sums up what happens when the Light is exposed on these guys! That’s why these churches that wanted to “partner” with us also lost interest…we asked too many questions they weren’t willing to answer!
BTW–we finally have a new pastor starting after our last one left in the dark of night a little over a year ago. And as I predicted, our pastor search committee really put the new guy through the wringer, making sure he had no secret agenda to ‘reform’ us! He seems a good sport and hopefully he will continue to be patient with us as our congregation heals from the deep wounds made by our former pastor!
refugee wrote:
Remember that Jack the Whipper DIDN’T get an erection while beating young men until they bled (before pressing his naked body up against theirs to whisper in their ear), so it wasn’t REALLY Homosexual BDSM. (“NOT GAY! SEE? SEE? SEE?”)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The only difference is that it’s another Southern Baptist church! It was only done out of pettiness and spite, I guarantee it!
JDV wrote:
But Latin is ROMISH!
Max wrote:
If more SBC-ers came to this website and others like it, they would see it, too! I am so thankful I did.
Root 66 wrote:
“And they’ll know we are Christians
By our spite, by our spite;
Yes they’ll Know we are Christians by our Spite…”
— spontaneous filk of the hymn
Mercy wrote:
Obviously I need your money; I may own the cattle on a thousand hills, but I’ve still got to feed them. And thrones like Mine don’t come cheap.
Now, as I’ve said, if I were hungry, I would not TELL you, for the world is Mine and all that is in it… but I hope you can take a HINT.
Best regards,
God
Mercy wrote:
Today you’re more likely to find “the iron fist of authority” in one of these Megas or independent Fellowships than in the RCC. Like the two church institutions have swapped attitudes since the Reformation.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
“I KNOW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!”
— Sgt Schultz (at least he had a valid reason to play dumb – the threat of The Russian Front)
@ God:
As always, your input is not without interest, God.
I’ve thought for some time that, whereas in many countries the persecution of Christians is carried out by organised militias of non-Christian faiths (including atheism), in the States, it’s carried out by counterfeit churches. It is the professing, institutional churches that seek to hound and persecute followers of Jesus who refuse to be deceived by them.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Old-time preacher Vance Havner had a book titled, “Playing Marbles with Diamonds” and that’s exactly what these guys are doing with the church. Using the church and people in the church to play games, never realizing their true value!
BTW–I’ll have to add that verse to our repertoire! 🙂
Thought-provoking tweet from Elon Musk recently.
Why is there no Flat Mars Society?
Root 66 wrote:
A couple years ago, we had a grand sum total of one “mega” in our smaller community (county has about 50,000, not including our campus of 20,000+). The “mega” has about 800 who regularly attend, a lot of them are students from the university where I teach. Used to meet in the local high school, led by young guys, 20 and 30-somethings with tight jeans and rock star looks, except for the head pastor, who’s in his 40s, who tries to affect the young guy look with the blue jeans and untucked flannel shirts.
Anyway, they finally got enough donations together and a sympathetic loan officer and put together the capital to build their own church in the burbs, not far from where the money is in the town, a profoundly ugly building, like a big white warehouse in an industrial park where they’d build microchips, even has the huge professionally-designed logo on the front. They have a certain name they call members, very, very similar to the way Elevations calls members “Elevators”. It’s obvious they’re playing the marketing angle to the hilt.
So what happens within a year of their new building campaign? A mega from the nearby city 50 miles away puts in a satellite location exactly half a mile from the plain white warehouse mega. They set it up right across from the big bypass loop that runs around the edge of town, right near the mall and the Walmart and such, and cut down the better part of a forest so that their building could be clearly seen from the highway bypass and would be more visible than the other mega just down the road.
So it’s not just the older churches they’re trying to grab “market share” from, it’s each other. Dueling megas!
Law Prof wrote:
Didn’t Paul address this issue in Galatians 5:15? “But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.” (I even quoted it in ESV, so the Neo-Cals could understand it in plain English!)
It’s not a business, folks…it’s a Kingdom!
refugee wrote:
Definitely! ……says the wife of a retired soldier!
Charis wrote:
My gut tells me that they are separating men’s “gifts” and women’s “gifts”.
Law Prof wrote:
Again, putting the Lowe’s next door to the Home Depot.
The phrase is “rustling each others’ sheep”.
JYJames wrote:
Not a single mention of Jesus in any of the stuff above.
Law Prof wrote:
Where I used to live, Alpharetta, GA, home of Northpoint Church, is like that times 10. Everybody is trying to be Northpoint and there are so many megachurches around there that people just shuffle from one to the other, sometimes going to more than one each weekend.
What’s most interesting to me is that none of these megas ever want to plant churches in the inner city or low income areas. They pick the highest income areas in the state, every time.
It’s all about God. Right…
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:The phrase is “rustling each others’ sheep”.
And it’s beautiful that way, because as they pilfer enough parishioners, and get their numbers up into four digits and start bearing the earmarks of a true mega, when their pastors get caught sleeping with teens in the youth ministry, abusing congregants, or sticking their hands in the collection plate, they’ll have large paid staff of sub pastors ready to circle the wagons and protect the regime and their paychecks and a huge team of congregants at the ready to rise up and attack any detractors or whistle blowers with the rationalization that their pastor has done so much good, built up such a great place that has reached so many thousands, that you dare not question them. It’s quite the system.
Max wrote:
New Calvinists have found that Re-Plant is a tougher row to hoe than New-Plant. Only the boldest of the young deceivers opt for takeover of an established non-Calvinist church, rather than hanging out a shingle at a strip mall to start a new thing. Re-Plants often involve weeping and gnashing of teeth as reformed belief and practice begin to raise their head in a non-Calvinist church. Moving the church from congregational polity to elder-rule is the first red flag, if the new “pastor” can pull it off without splitting the church. Unfortunately, most Re-Plants end up with a church split as older non-Calvinist members exit, leaving the church building in the hands of the new reformers. This all sounds like Jesus, doesn’t it? (not)
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Hey, now! Don’t go knocking Lowe’s. Its cool, calming periwinkle-blue hues and prominent home-decor sections are deliberately designed to appeal to women. Home Depot (a/k/a Agent Orange) is targeted to men. I’ll take female-friendly for $1000, Alex. ;(
Law Prof wrote:
Boy, can I ever relate!
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Sounds exactly like the big corporation I retired from last year.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Thank you, HUG! I wanted to make this point.
I was brought up Catholic in the ’50s and ’60s and taught by Mean Nuns, but I could not remotely relate to what Mercy was talking about. It’s just not like that. Not even close.
And as I said to someone else, the Spanish Inquisition was over a long, long time ago.
@ An Attorney:
Absolutely correct.
ishy wrote:
Neither Jeus nor love mentioned.
However, God is love.
@ Max:
Thanks. I knew there were more items for The List. (And, thanks TWW for the material evidence to create The List.)
BTW, the spikey hair and sprayed painted on ripped jeans are included in “leaders” with arrested development and without social boundaries.
JYJames wrote:
Neither Jesus nor loved mentioned. Jesus. He is, after all, the Real Deal. No Jesus, no church. And regarding love, God is love.
Forrest wrote:
Looks that way; they have a “standing invitation” to “strengthen” those they think need it, but I don’t see too many ties that bind them if they’re the ones stumbling and needing someone else to “strengthen” them.
ishy wrote:
I heard that a familiar mainline denomination in Norcross went through bankruptcy; wonder how many refugees and mega-recruits that created.
JDV wrote:
Denominational church.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That’s exactly it! Both leave bitterness in my stomach.
ishy wrote:
None. But then, He tends not to go where He’s not invited. He never forces Himself on anyone.
Interesting you mention that. I was saying this to my husband just the other day. These people are so full of themselves they don’t realize How far they are from the Lord.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
I was raised in the 60’s by mean nuns. I suppose it depended where you lived. I also worked part time at the Rectory in high school. My town had a huge pedophile scandal erupt in the 70’s at the Franciscan seminary. I saw all manner of things. I’m glad yours was a better experience. That said, what we are seeing today is far worse than I ever knew back then. But then, evil men wax worse and worse.
I don’t see a correlation between authority and pedophiles.
Individual authority is never a good thing, for sure. But I’m talking about canonical authority. To say that’s always wrong is to say the Church has always been wrong, and Jesus goofed by building it.. because they started from a position of authority themselves. Even newly converted Paul had to get a blessing and laying on of hands, instead of getting uppity and doing everything simply because he had a revelation from Christ.
Catholics are particularly strange though, when it comes to individualist authority. I can see how it can be open to so much abuse. A lot of victims talk about thinking their priests were the “closest thing to God”, when they were little. So they didn’t know how to fight back or felt guilty. This is sooo not good.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This makes me think of the end times ruler in Daniel 11, who blasphemes God, but also sets himself up to be worships and performs counterfeit signs and wonders.
Ken wrote:
Just to be clear, i did not equate authority with paedophilia. It was merely to express an understanding of the RCC at one time in my life.
Jesus built the Church, one world wide group, saved by faith, built into one body of which He is the head. Man pretty much made of mess of it after that.
___
“SOP, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
When the lawsuit storm broke, the leadership of the family of churches known as Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), ran for their lives, and took their records, and money generation 501(c)3 business with them. The senior accountant quit, and obtained other employment. Those who attempted reform moved on unsuccessful. This has left a 501(c)3 cell without a host.it is apparent that CLC in this condition should find a suitable host. With SGC wanting to liquidate their building interest in Gaithersburg, Maryland, the equation was bound to change. It makes sense for CLC to purchase the building, reincorporate , and join another Calvinist host 501(c)3 Church growth organization. Today there many to choose from.
It prayerfully remains to be seen what the 501(c)3 cell with a new host becomes for the Gaithersburg, Maryland community.
ATB
Sòpy
;~)
– –
___
“More to Say?”
February 21, 2018 in Sovereign Grace Ministries
Well, Guy gave me an ultimatum this morning. Either I put up a new post, or he’s shutting down the site. He’s tired of paying the hosting and domain fees.
I can’t say I blame him. Things have been pretty dead around here. NOT because Sovereign Grace Ministries’ leadership ever fully acknowledged and took responsibility for their institutional dysfunction. To the best of my knowledge, that’s never happened on any organization-wide official scale. Yes, Covenant Life Church and several other SGM congregations around the country parted ways with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Some leaders, including Joshua Harris, did speak out and take some responsibility for SGM’s issues. C.J. Mahaney did step down as president of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
But after some cursory soul-searching back in 2012-13 or so, C.J. Mahaney and crew dispatched themselves to start a very well-funded InstaChurch in Louisville, Kentucky. New leadership was named at SGM Corporate, which also relocated to Louisville from Gaithersburg, Maryland. In late 2014, Sovereign Grace Ministries quietly rebranded itself yet again for its fourth moniker (Gathering of Believers became People of Destiny International became PDI Ministries, became Sovereign Grace Ministries), becoming Sovereign Grace Churches. Recently, Sovereign Grace Churches even doubled down on their denials of wrongdoing, apparently hoping people will believe that the dismissal of the sex abuse scandal on a technicality (the statute of limitations had run out) means the justice system officially determined that there never was any merit to ANY of the complaints made within that lawsuit.
So no, it’s not that there’s nothing left to talk about here when it comes to Sovereign Grace Churches. There is. I just haven’t had the self-discipline or motivation to crank out posts. I’ve never seen myself as some sort of crusader. I don’t actually have an ax to grind with Sovereign Grace Churches specifically. And certainly, being a more generic “watch-blogger” has never held any appeal for me. Who wants to spend their days self-importantly clucking over every perceived problem in conservative Evangelicalism?
I’m also not comfortable being an unthinking “victims’ advocate.” I’ve just never been the kind of person who can unquestioningly believe every random accusation no matter how ludicrous, even if said allegation is included in a lawsuit filing. More importantly, I’m not particularly interested in hosting a website where people feel free to spew negativity about what is literally our only comfort in life and death. For believers, there’s a vital God-mandated “baby” (the local church) in the filthy “bathwater” of Sovereign Grace Churches’ bad behavior, and recognizing problems with a particular way of doing church is definitely no excuse for ditching church altogether.
But I’m not ready quite yet to let go of this specific space, of what happened here, either. I remain convinced that a lot of the stuff here needs to remain available, particularly things like transcripts of key sermons that formed the foundation for many of SGM’s unofficial yet organization-wide cultural practices. If you read here long enough, with an even slightly open mind, I think you’ll come away with a sense of the scope and breadth of SGM’s/SGC’s issues and why the purported changes of the past few years may not be enough to address things. I mean, given their very recent denials, Sovereign Grace Churches’ leaders apparently STILL struggle mightily to own their obvious historical problems.
I’m also curious to get some sense of where Sovereign Grace Churches are today. I haven’t interacted much over the past couple of years with people currently involved in Sovereign Grace Churches, so I’m wondering about whether things have changed much, and if so, how? For instance, how has C.J. Mahaney’s departure as leader affected the organization these past 5 or so years? How is Sovereign Grace Churches’ polity different? What policies does SGC have in place to prevent the kinds of abuses that occurred prior to when the internet lifted the veil of secrecy? Has anyone ever officially acknowledged the truths of Brent Detwiler’s documents? What has been done to either refute his charges or reconcile with him?
Are changes–and more importantly, the reasons for the changes, the problems that arose and prompted the changes–discussed and explained? Or has change just been implemented with little information?
What do Sovereign Grace Churches stand for these days? How do they characterized themselves? Are they still touting themselves to be “Reformed and Charismatic”? Do they still have the prophecy microphone? Do they still believe the role of apostle exists in some form today? What do they teach about pastoral authority now? What sort of accountability is in place for pastors? Are pastors accountable to their congregations in some sort of formal way, or are they still basically only accountable to other pastors? Does SGC still plant churches? Is C.J. Mahaney’s Louisville plant self-supporting now? Are pastoral salaries disclosed to the congregation? Are church members still primarily seeking counseling from their Sovereign Grace Churches pastors? Are psychiatric drugs still subtly (and not-so-subtly) discouraged? Are members still encouraged to confront one another about perceived sins? Do small groups (called “care groups” at Covenant Life Church) still exist in the same format? Are people free to join any care/small group of their choice, or are they assigned (and then randomly reassigned) to small groups?
How do individual Sovereign Grace Churches feel about the recent statements about sexual abuse from Corporate? Is this the widespread party line, that because the 2012 lawsuit was dismissed on a technicality, Sovereign Grace Ministries was somehow vindicated and found “not guilty” of any of the allegations contained in the lawsuit? Do present-day Sovereign Grace Churches acknowledge the old unspoken social systems that gave rise to so many situations where pastors protected abusers and did not report abuse to law enforcement?
Do people feel free to ask questions of their leaders now? How do leaders respond when questioned? Are the “gossip ‘n’ slander” charges still thrown about as willy-nilly as they used to be?
Most importantly, will there ever be official corporate-wide acknowledgement of Sovereign Grace Ministries’ historical missteps and dysfunction?
What do you think?
*
-Kris @ SGM Survivors
—-
https://www.sgmsurvivors.com
– –
Mercy wrote:
Well, then, Jesus was mistaken or lying when He said that the Gates of Hell would not prevail. Hmm.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Mutton… Eustace Clarence liked sheep, especially lamb, if it was dead and chops on a plate.
Bridget wrote:
Is Jesus human?
Jerome wrote:
Just like GOB, CLC, and PDI founder Larry T’s “God, the Rod, and Your Child’s Bod”.
And of course several of the child sex abuse incidents came in the context of bare-bottom smacking.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
Jesus never lied. I think you would enjoy a study regarding the Gates of Hell. Read Michael Heiser who knows ancient language and Scripture.
Mercy wrote:
LOL. Believe it or not, I’ve studied this topic pretty extensively. Many Catholic scholars are also conversant with ancient languages and Scripture. 😉
Mercy wrote:
Which is all too often followed with “Until OUR FOUNDING PASTOR Finally Got It Right and Restored the REAL Original Body of Christ”.
Here in SoCal, we’ve got a LOT of little splinter churches/not-quite-cults with this mantra.
Mercy wrote:
In the sense of a progressive deterioration of the individual, or in the sense of a general decline narrative? Because the latter has been way overdone in Christianese since WW1, resulting in Rapture-Ready Christianese Pessimism/Grinning Nihilism.
ishy wrote:
“Why do you rob banks?”
“That’s where the money is.”
ishy wrote:
“Who’s he?”
Ken wrote:
I do, but it’s indirect.
Authority makes it easier to force yourself sexually on your Inferiors, and gives you the resources to cover it up/silence victims, witnesses, and whistleblowers.
“POWER means I Get To Do Anything I Want. ANYTHING.”
And how does “priest” differ from “Pastor/Elder/Head Apostle” in this context?
Other than semantics?
YOU KNOW WHAT THAT “ADVANCE” LOGO IS?
A LAMBDA.
THE GREEK LETTER “L”.
WHICH IS ALSO THE SIGIL OF THE LGBTQ-whatever RIGHTS MOVEMENT.
ION: Weather
So, we’ve a Red Warning of snow over central Scotland. Not sure why it’s red – it’s cold and windy, and the snow’s drifting, but there’s not been much of it compared with what most snowy countries get. Anyway, I’ve been working fae hame today, since most of the trains to Enbruh where cancelled. Not entirely without profit – I’ve found the bug I’ve been looking for, though admittedly that’s only a small part of the work, because you then have to test the solution, which I can’t actually do without access to the internal network.
Anyway, we’re having a chippy attack tonight.
IHTIH
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well, used definitely in the general sense. I don’t see man evolving into anythng better. It seems like we are all witnessing many atrocities in this world. I’ve been around long enough to remember when my friends who participated in some pretty bad stuff respected the fact that i declined to join them. It didn’t affect our friendships. Today you can’t have a decent conversation with one who is your polar opposite without it causing problems. And that’s the mild stuff.
Clearly, there are some fringe elements. There always have been.
@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
“Well, then, Jesus was mistaken or lying when He said that the Gates of Hell would not prevail. Hmm.”
I’m not sure why you responded to Mercy in this way. It sounds like you are upset about something you think was said but wasn’t actually said. There are two different bodies here – the real church being built up daily by Jesus and the false church being built up daily by man no doubt with, at times, infernal support. The first includes all real believers (sometimes teferred to as the hudden church), who may or may not be members of many different denominations, and the other includes what the bible describes as wheat and tares, that is, real believers can inadvertently get caught up in false churches. Once that is understood it becomes much easier to see what is going on in christendom.
@ Mercy:
“ That said, what we are seeing today is far worse than I ever knew back then. But then, evil men wax worse and worse.”
As in 2 Timothy 3:13 (KJV)
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
Pretty much describes what we are currently seeing being exposed on an almost daily basis.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Feeling for you, Nick, and hoping you are now home safe. We got let off lightly even though we’re a lot further north.
@ Forrest:
P.S. I now have a desire to visit our local chippie too but don’t fancy going out again.
@ Forrest:
Chippy attack didnae go too well, as the local chippy was shut! Did manage to drive to a pizza place (at 20mph or less).
Looking at the weather, I’m going to be working fae hame tomorrow as well.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Agreed. Catholicism has come to grips with and made its peace with the Enlightenment and The Rights of Man far better than has American Protestantism.
It really is ironic.
How long before Harvard Business School or Wharton Business School( Penn), McCombs Business School ( UT-Austin) start to offer MBA’s in how to run a church?
Seriously. You know…this is Murica, Jesus and money go hand in hand.
( Or is this already happening.)
K.D. wrote:
Already happening.
https://www1.villanova.edu/villanova/business/graduate/specializedprograms/church_mgmt.html
Jenny wrote:
You knew it had to…too much money….MURICA!
@ K.D.:
Did you know there is a Church Executive magazine?
https://churchexecutive.com/digital-editions
I didn’t, either.
Have a scroll through the blog topics.
Kinda looks like Forbes, eh?
Jenny wrote:
No ma’am, I did not, and in truth, I am not shocked. And they wonder why people no longer go to church?
THE LABOR ECONOMICS OF WOMEN IN MINISTRY, PART I
http://www.jamebolds.com/ideas/the-labor-economics-of-women-in-ministry-part-i
by JAMÉ BOLDS
A snippet:
@ K.D.:
When your church’s service sounds more like a rock concert, team building retreat, or stockholders’ meeting (maybe all of the above?), you might be in the wrong ‘church’.
Jenny wrote:
Many churches in America would not exist if it weren’t for cool bands and singers in tight pants. Whiny guitars, loud drums, and shallow songs draw folks in by the hordes. The God of Entertainment rules.
Mercy wrote:
Does anyone remember Amway? A very effective pyramid scheme of the 60’s and 70’s. That’s all this is. With religion sprinkled on top. Just disgusting and transparent. What is wrong with people? Do we have to just go on with this nonsense forever? Where is the discernment?
P.J. Smyth is the founder of the Advance Movement – a family of churches committed to planting and strengthening churches on five continents!
roebuck wrote:
I have personally sat in religious oriented meetings and listened to presentations that sounded very much like the Amway scheme. Needless to say, I was not impressed.
I think if we love God and love others and go in the power of the Spirit, the rest will work itself out.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/california-protestant-church-abuse-claims_us_5a95d0afe4b07dffeb6d1bd2
another #metoo
bullet force wrote:
PJ — Son of Jack the Whipper.
What is PJ’s salary and expense account?
roebuck wrote:
Interestingly, yes! Knew a couple in the early 80’s. He was very charismatic, former pastor. His second wife was very much cut from the same Complementarian cloth as Michelle Duggar. They went on to try to have his quiver filled. Anyway, they were with Amway and wanted us involved. They also were pushing us to homeschool. It was the Gothard method. We didn’t comply. As i look back now i can see it all clearly with the benefit of hindsight and lots of information. Dodged a bullet, we did!
And yes, these churches are all repeating the pattern.
Max wrote:
Panem et circenses substituted for the Lord’s Word and Table.
Some folks have tossed out the baby but kept the bathwater.
roebuck wrote:
These’s not much, because people want to believe in the impossible, because they’re greedy, they’re gullible, because they’ve been damaged by an upbringing that makes them incapable of seeing through lies, because they don’t know the Lord, they’re just faking it–or any combination of the above.
People want to be special and powerful and popular and wealthy and cool, people want to have it all. They don’t want to take up a cross and just be a plain old follower of Jesus who might end up unpopular and persecuted on this earth. People don’t want Jesus, not really, they want an idea of Jesus, a Jesus who gives them what they want rather than changing what they want–and there is no shortage of abusive, personality-disordered narcissists willing to give them that idea. So that’s who they follow. They get the form of godliness–but deny the power of it. If you have itching ears, there will always be someone to scratch them.
JYJames wrote:
Money quote:
At one point, Roach said, she was placed alone in a room with about five adult men who asked her to describe the abuse in graphic detail. She was only 17 at the time.
To which I reacted “Graphic Detail” or “JUICY Detail”?
roebuck wrote:
And Amway put the Christianese Paint Job on themselves, incorporating God-talk and Revival Meeting tactics to push their legal pyramid racket.
Jenny wrote:
We certainly see this in many churches today.
Law Prof wrote:
Excellent explanation, Law Prof.
Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
It would be interesting to do a contextual study of that interpretation. It would involve so many different aspects such as the meaning and veracity of Apostolic succession, what is a church, etc.
JYJames wrote:
Another disturbing account of a “pastor” who escaped criminal prosecution because church leaders failed to deal with this abuse correctly … who subsequently continued in ministry for another 30 years! This pastor-covering-pastor stuff must stop!!
@ Max:
At least some are being caught and sentenced…
A former South Texas Catholic priest convicted of raping a 13-year-old girl less than a decade ago will likely spend the rest of his days behind bars.
http://www.kiiitv.com/article/news/local/priest-convicted-of-raping-a-13-year-old-sentenced-to-60-years/503-524589039
Forrest wrote:
Along with an SBC youth pastor nabbed this week:
https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/crime/2018/02/27/springfield-youth-minister-molested-2-children-years-before-becoming-youth-minister-springfield-poli/377060002/
Max wrote:
“All these PASTORs said one to another:
‘PASTOR unto PASTOR o’er the world is Brother…'”
— paraphrase of Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wild_Knight_and_Other_Poems/The_Ballad_of_the_Battle_of_Gibeon
Jenny wrote:
If not The Show That Never Ends:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48
Max wrote:
It never ends. It is so upsetting.
Mercy wrote:
These pervert “pastors” ought to be scared to death to work their wickedness in church … but there’s not too much about the organized church these days that scares the hell out of anyone.
Law Prof wrote:
That is about the best explanation of the problem I have seen yet. This is the general state of that which we call the ‘Institutional Church’. Is it much different from what we call the Institutional ‘State’? We are brainwashed, propagandized and mindcontrolled from birth, led to believe in false realities that have been carefully and professionally crafted. Welcome to life in the modern world, in which mass shootings, terrorist events and entire wars can be instigated, manufactured or produced on site as easily as the latest action flick. How difficult can it be to sell ‘church’ to people who have other things to do, and merely want a salve for their conscience?
I see no hope of change until people wake up to the fact that most of what they ‘believe’ to be true has been crafted, packaged and spoon-fed to us over the course of centuries. As long as we accept our daily propaganda as reality, and refuse to ask difficult and important questions, we will remain under the controlling authority of others, whose names are mostly unknown to us.