Post Delayed

Posted on by August 15, 2017avatar

The letters are now being received by lots of people. Needless to say, I am going to have to discuss this with some folks. I am delaying the post until after I speak with a few individuals. Please keep me in your prayers as I seek to explain what we do here at TWW.

Comments

Post Delayed — 210 Comments


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    1st


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    Well, that’s a bit disappointing…I am sorry this has created such a headache/hassle for you and Deb. I don’t know why you have to explain anything you do here but maybe, in God’s grace and economy, more people will come to know and be blessed by the ministry of TWW.

    Which is not what I imagine the letter writer intended.


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    Praying.


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    Praying much for both of you & the TWW community as a whole.


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    Prayers for peace and wisdom.


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    Praying


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    Burwell wrote:

    but maybe, in God’s grace and economy, more people will come to know and be blessed by the ministry of TWW

    Yes. I hope for this too. I know you didn’t want this, but maybe it will give you an opportunity to talk about the abuse in churches and why you are so passionate about it.

    Praying for you guys.


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    So I underestimated the time on research and production by this person to go after you guys….bloggers. That is always a telling factor to me.


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    Lots of people, huh??? Cryin’ shame whoever is sending the letter doesn’t have my address!


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    Off topic, but I went to Hopkinsville (aka Eclipseville) today. Things are already getting kraaayyyyzzzeeee there!


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    As difficult as all this must be, God can still turn it around to further His Kingdom. I’m reminded of what Joseph said to his brothers when he finally told them who he really was,
    “And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.” -Genesis 50:20.
    God does stuff like that! He’s awesome…don’t be discouraged.


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    @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    It’s quite the topic here. Expecting many times over the population of Hopville. Some very rural small town mayors are worried. They don’t even have Sheriff’s!


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    Praying.
    What you do here at TWW is valuable. Giving people who have been abused in the “church” a voice is a critically important function of the true ecclesia. When one part suffers, we all suffer. Too many are suffering at the hands of predators, and too many people are complicit in the cover-up. The days for silence are long past. Today is a day for salt and light. This is how the true church functions, in openness and compassion for victims of terrible crimes. Not in secrecy and silence. Not anymore.
    Praying.
    Grace.


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    @ Root 66:
    excellent comment!


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    Lydia wrote:

    It’s quite the topic here. Expecting many times over the population of Hopville. Some very rural small town mayors are worried. They don’t even have Sheriff’s!

    Nation Guard people are coming to Hoptown – will be given same authority and power as State Troopers, temporarily.
    Gas stations can’t get more supplies – predictions are stations will run out of gasoline by or before Sunday afternoon. City leaders are starting to panic. But don’t tell anybody that I said that (I have the inside scoop)!
    My son-in-law is the IT guy for Hoptown …… NASA and tv reporters are driving him insane! The city is providing an ATV (off road four-wheeler) so that he can circumvent traffic congestion and get where he needs to be to trouble shoot!


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    Nancy2 and Lydia, been thru Hopkinsville and Cadiz, KY numerous time to and fro trips to MN. Beautiful countryside! Hope they leave it that way.

    Deebs…keep up the excellent work!


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    Wow! Sorry that someone is harrassing people who are doing such good work and encouraging others. Praying.


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    Keeping you in my thoughts and prayes – peace and wisdom.
    Much love and respect.


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    A.Tumbleweed wrote:

    What you do here at TWW is valuable.

    I describe TWW to people as “Whistleblowers on Church Corruption and Abuse”.

    So the poison pen letter writer has gone Spammer.
    Considering this is through USPS and not a click of a key on a spambot…
    1) He’s paying postage, and USPS endorsements would show his post office location.
    2) Is he just spamming the same letter to everybody, or does he do individual letters to individual targets?
    3) I wonder if the Postal Inspectors would be interested?
    Harassment through the mail and all that.
    And I’m sure the letters are crossing state lines.
    4) And if not criminal, An Attorney has implied you definitely have a civil case. Lawyer Up!


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    Lydia wrote:

    So I underestimated the time on research and production by this person to go after you guys….bloggers. That is always a telling factor to me.

    The more he’s sending out, the more footprint he leaves, and the more traceable he is.

    And has he stepped over the line from civil to CRIMINAL harassment?
    If so, get Police and Postal Inspectors involved (because this is through the mail).

    One of the reasons abusers run rampant in churches is too many Christians only “pray about it”; there comes a time for Action.


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    Unbelievable. Praying.


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    Maybe you can get some fingerprints off the envelopes.


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    This whole current situation underscores some of the fundamental problems with American Christianity…


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    Praying.


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    Jesus said we would be persecuted….HE was by supposed Men of God. You are shining a light on corruption scandal abuse and if ONE child is protected by all you’ve written…then ladies it’s worth it.


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    Wow! In the midst of conflict some wonderful people were so kind to me. This story has a wonderful new thread. I will post tomorrow-the letter and the aftermath. There are some really, really good pastors and denominational leaders out there.


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    This person sure went through a lot of trouble, and IMO, it makes them look a little nutty.

    It would’ve been easier, faster, and maybe classier, to just drive to your home in the middle of the night to T.P. (toilet paper) it.


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    Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

    This whole current situation underscores some of the fundamental problems with American Christianity…

    Fundamental problem: it’s not real Christianity.


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    @ dee:
    Good news!


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Couldn’t agree more. Personal experience taught me that. That is why I sound so strident. Been thinking about the John Adams quote Muff shared. And the fact that of everyone Jesus interacted with He was harshest with the “religious leaders” of His Tribe. Hmmm.

    The sender wants the Deebs punished. Think about that. It’s surreal. They are eaten up with this church discipline business as if pastors are the parent of members. (Who pay them!!!!!!).


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    dee wrote:

    Wow! In the midst of conflict some wonderful people were so kind to me. This story has a wonderful new thread.

    Glad to hear it, Dee. For all that you do for those abused in churches, no one deserves a happy turnabout more than you.

    Be smart, stay safe and show this fool what you’re made of!


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    @ Burwell:

    “I don’t know why you have to explain anything you do here but maybe, in God’s grace and economy, more people will come to know and be blessed by the ministry of TWW.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    well, someone once said ‘all publicity is good publicity’. perhaps.

    hopefully, if common sense is active, alive & well in the recipients of these letters, they will easily and plainly understand the reason why you do what you do. and the value and integrity of it, Deebs.

    sorry for the hassle. you deserve better.


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    Daisy wrote:

    This person sure went through a lot of trouble, and IMO, it makes them look a little nutty.

    And scary. HUG is right, this is very possibly a case of criminal harassment. Get the postal inspectors involved, as well as the cops, the feds, anyone who has jurisdiction. Put the screws to this creep!


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    I went to Hopkinsville (aka Eclipseville) today. Things are already getting kraaayyyyzzzeeee there!

    Just think how crazy it’s going to get when the lights go out!


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    The Complementarian Doctrine of the Trinity: the story now told.
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2017/08/14/complementarianisms-trinity-story-now-told/

    Kevin Giles, who all along has been calling out Grudem and Ware and others, both was the first to call them out and now has written a small engaging account called The Rise and Fall of the Complementarian Doctrine of the Trinity.


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    dee wrote:

    Wow! In the midst of conflict some wonderful people were so kind to me. This story has a wonderful new thread. I will post tomorrow-the letter and the aftermath. There are some really, really good pastors and denominational leaders out there.

    Thank you for this encouraging note. Will be looking forward to reading the update.


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    @ Daisy:
    A little nutty?

    Understatement of the year.


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    Public record is open for public discussion in many countries and on their internet.

    Adult indiscretion with children is criminal behavior, a far cry from adults having affairs (though affairs are immoral and deceptive in a Christian community).

    The pushback comes when a closed community in a free society seeks to control the narrative. Theoretically, elected leaders of a social group can mandate silence on the topic in their community. They can exclude those who are not silent. It’s their playground. They have their say. They set the rules of discourse.

    For the individual who is not silent, it’s a matter of fighting for a voice in that community or sacrificing participation in that community. David slew Goliath but fled Saul.

    The individual can also be silent and assimilate.

    Personally, I know of no church that talks openly about child abuse, and certainly not anything that has happened within their own community. Yet lawyers are busy prosecuting cases, including in religious communities. It’s open in the courts and in the press, but never in the church, it seems. Maybe that’s my limited experience.


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    @ dee:
    Looking forward to good news!


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    I check this site nearly everyday. I appreciate all the important work that is shared in the posts…the research, the accuracy, the fairnes, the honesty. Thank you for helping so many others.


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    I’ve appreciated a lot of what you all do but honestly a big part of what you do is obviously a personal vendetta against people you don’t agree with. You’re great at lumping all people with a particular doctrine together and vilifying them. You’re great at making condescending names (calvinista) to belittle people you don’t agree with. You’re tone is wounded and it shows in your writing style (almost every post) and it attracts other wounded christian voyeurs.
    You’ve done some important work in keeping people accountable but overall I mostly feel sad for you. I can’t imagine a life that revolves around looking for dirt to dish.


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    @ dee
    You have my prayers and solidarity.


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    Daisy wrote:

    It began with George Knight III…

    …who was a very, very creative theologian. He invented equal but not equally equal for the Persons of the Trinity so that he could then make 1 Corinthians 11 mean what it needs to mean in order for males and females to be equal but not equally equal. And he did that so that the paid clergy positions could be reserved for males because Status and Position and Compensation wold be diluted otherwise. If the traditional clobber verse interpretations were sufficient, doctrinal innovations as brazen as ESS would not have been necessary.


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    dee wrote:

    There are some really, really good pastors and denominational leaders out there.

    Great news!


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    Jimmy wrote:

    looking for dirt to dish

    Shining light into dark corners …

    “… the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” John 3:19-21


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    @ Jimmy:
    True to TWW, you have posted your different view on their blog, and they let it stand, on their blog. No letter writing to a pastor, and no censorship of what you have to say. No hidden agenda.

    Thanks Deebs! God bless TWW!


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    Wow, just wow. I remember back in the day, because it was the cult of greed and power, I posted the threats I got from their lawyers, along with my real name, address and phone number on Usenet. As protection. I wanted people to know. This was about 1996. What I didn’t know at the time, and only found out a few years later is that some Scienos paid me a visit when I wasn’t home. My neighbor, an older African-American woman armed with a long gun, met them on her property and pretty much told them to skedaddle. As I said, I didn’t know about it at the time, but I was all, “Oh God, please don’t do that ever again, please” when I found out.

    I am not suggesting any of this as a pattern to follow, just pointing out things can get very very weird and to be careful. I love the Deebs and don’t want anything to happen to you!


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    Gram3 wrote:

    If the traditional clobber verse interpretations were sufficient, doctrinal innovations as brazen as ESS would not have been necessary.

    That is true. There are things that are not clear about the traditional clobber verses. I totally agree with what you are saying about non-clearness.

    However, using the same reasoning, if everything were crystal clear from the get go there would have been no need for the early church to address the issues at the early church councils in the first place. What would be the need for the elaborate and seemingly redundant verbiage in some of the very early creedal statements if it were not for the purpose of addressing issues which were not, in fact, all that clear?

    I keep asking myself why these things were not made more clear. If God intended to explain all this, like the issue of the Trinity’s internal relationships, then why are we all sitting here observing that things are not clear-if one looks only at scripture-just not clear enough to quell questions and debates both in the beginnings of Christianity and now also? Maybe we are not supposed to know these things? Maybe we (we all-both individual and corporate) are not supposed to be building our own pyramids of theological speculation in this area at all.

    Perhaps the temptation of salvation by doctrine alone is just as extreme as some idea of salvation by works alone. Using a christianese comment that I frequently heard in Baptist fundamentalist circles ‘I just don’t have any peace about this’.


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    I have prayed and will pray about the current problem with the letter campaign against TWW. Even if the letter writer should have some complaints that he feels are legitimate this is still not any way for him to address his issues. So sorry about all this.


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    @ Jimmy:
    Maybe someone could start a blog about Watching the Watch or Watching the Whiners or…I don’t know…something similar…. Something similar that clearly rises above the criticisms you have made, particularly the one about personal vendettas…oh, who could be the man for this hour?


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    Jimmy wrote:

    wounded christian voyeurs.

    Band Name.

    I love how wounded is a bad thing, one.
    I love the ‘you’ve done a great job holding people accountable but…’
    I love the ‘i feel sad for you’.

    So many typical things. So few details.


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    Jimmy wrote:

    but honestly a big part of what you do is obviously a personal vendetta against people you don’t agree with.

    About child abuse! About lying.

    There is nothing wrong with not agreeing with people about these things and, heavens, pointing it out. Goodness knows none of the pastor men think twice about condemning, say, everyone who watches game of thrones. Or every woman who has a job. Etc.


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    ‘Jimmy’ is something I have read before on this site. Sometimes somebody will say something under some name or other and somebody will respond and call that person ‘Jimmy’ when that was not the name that the commenter used.

    What am I missing here? Is it all the same ‘Jimmy’ and is this the person in question, or has my aging brain blown a gasket? What is the story behind the ‘Jimmy’ that I have seen referenced in the past?


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    okrapod wrote:

    Perhaps the temptation of salvation by doctrine alone is just as extreme as some idea of salvation by works alone.

    It’s funny, you go back and look at all the warnings to the church you see these things.

    Why the whole business about if you know all the things, but have no love it counts for nothing? Why does Jesus spend all his time criticizing pharisees? Why did Paul say he resolved to know nothing but christ and him crucified? Faith without works is dead.

    They were making it all about doctrine, way back in the beginning. There were wolves, way back in the beginning.

    Nothing new under the sun.


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    It’s quite the topic here. Expecting many times over the population of Hopville. Some very rural small town mayors are worried. They don’t even have Sheriff’s!

    Nation Guard people are coming to Hoptown – will be given same authority and power as State Troopers, temporarily.
    Gas stations can’t get more supplies – predictions are stations will run out of gasoline by or before Sunday afternoon. City leaders are starting to panic. But don’t tell anybody that I said that (I have the inside scoop)!
    My son-in-law is the IT guy for Hoptown …… NASA and tv reporters are driving him insane! The city is providing an ATV (off road four-wheeler) so that he can circumvent traffic congestion and get where he needs to be to trouble shoot!

    Wow, sounds like things are going to be interesting for the school group my daughters are going with Monday morning. Two large tour buses full of kids, plus several parents leaving at 6:00 a.m. to convoy down there. I hope they don’t have too much trouble finding an area to park in.

    I’m still trying to get my hands on more glasses, since the school district decided to cancel school on the 21st, and our boys will be home. The eclipse will not be finished when the kids would normally be let out, and they’re worried kids would be looking at it without protection. One other district in central KY, I think, decided to keep the kids until 4:00. I wonder if they’ll provide them with glasses. 🙂


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    dee wrote:

    Wow! In the midst of conflict some wonderful people were so kind to me. This story has a wonderful new thread. I will post tomorrow-the letter and the aftermath. There are some really, really good pastors and denominational leaders out there.

    Glad to hear that, Dee. I hope this situation has a happy outcome for all involved. Maybe this guy will learn a valuable lesson.


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    @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    I don’t envy you guys. People coming tend not understand basic infrastructure issues that can be quite serious when stretched beyond capacity. We have an EMT/paramedic crisis without eclipse business, for example. Serious stuff.

    I have an extended family member who is the IT person for a small college town near you guys and he is freaking, too.

    I read an article in the NYT that interviewed the mayors of tiny Wickliffe and Barlow, you might find interesting. They pointed out there is no way to judge potential crowd.

    The school system here is handing out glasses but many bought the wrong kind. Eye doctors are issuing warnings like crazy. It’s nuts.


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    @ NJ:
    I recommend you Buy your own to specifications. It’s been quite the tizzy here.


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    @ Lea:
    Excellent points. My conclusion after years of all of it is:

    Christianity is simple but not “easy” so people complicated it.

    But then I lean Pelagian (wink)so am a heretic anyway.


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    okrapod wrote:

    What am I missing here? Is it all the same ‘Jimmy’ and is this the person in question, or has my aging brain blown a gasket? What is the story behind the ‘Jimmy’ that I have seen referenced in the past?

    Read Beakerj’s post a few posts up. That person likes to use pseudonyms, but is not very good at hiding his identity in other ways.


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    @ okrapod:
    There seem to be different Jimmy stories. The one I know: He was on FBCJaxwstchdog way back berating people for daring to post anything negative about Mac Brunson. Jimmy posted then as Seneca Griggs. From what I can ascertain, he started targeting certain blogs discussing church problems under different names. FBCJaxwatchdog found out his real name years ago. Then he started a blog with a riff off name to this one. Evidently, TWW really gets under his skin.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Sometimes somebody will say something under some name or other

    Mark Driscoll trolled blogs voicing concerns about the potty-mouth from Seattle; he used an alias “William Wallace II” to slam bloggers and commenters.


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    Jimmy wrote:

    I’ve appreciated a lot of what you all do but honestly a big part of what you do is obviously a personal vendetta against people you don’t agree with. You’re great at lumping all people with a particular doctrine together and vilifying them. You’re great at making condescending names (calvinista) to belittle people you don’t agree with. You’re tone is wounded and it shows in your writing style (almost every post) and it attracts other wounded christian voyeurs.

    It’s very easy to make the accusation that someone who shines the light on a particular sin in “the church” is only doing so because they have a personal vendetta. TWW is not “digging in the dirt” to bring these issues to light. In most cases, their information comes from news reports, public records, and personal testimonies of those involved. That is just basic investigative journalism, hardly a personal vendetta.

    Those who are engaging in vile acts like the abuse of children often use personal attacks to silence people. Those are the people, in my view, who have a “personal vendetta”.

    The fact that a doctrinal system or set of beliefs is common to those who are perpetrating abuse and seeking to cover it up provides a valuable context to the story. These crimes, and that is what they are, do not happen in a vacuum. The background and belief system of the perps is important information to those of us who were A. abused as children ourselves, and B. who care about protecting children now and in the future. You cannot separate someone from what they believe, the value system that factors in to what they do. And to catalogue the various beliefs and values that make up the background of criminals is, again, simply good reporting.

    Finally, to call people like me who have been sexually abused as children by people in “the church” “wounded christian voyeurs” is to participate in the abuse and perpetuate it. I can assure you that we are not voyeurs. We did not ask to be violated. We are not seeking to watch as the next victim is violated. If we are wounded, it it because someone in “the church” committed a crime against us that went unpunished and was covered up by people who were supposed to be protecting us.

    Someone stole something from us. He stole my life. I live with the crime every day. I just don’t want that to happen to anyone else, especially in the name of God and with the blessing and resources of any church, no matter their theological persuasion.
    Grace.


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Fundamental problem: it’s not real Christianity

    There is only one true Church. It’s getting increasingly difficult in America to find a church where Jesus is attending. Why would He want to go to the churches we have built, rather than the one He is building? Folks don’t raise His name above all names, they don’t worship Him as they ought, they follow their agenda rather than the Great Commission. Yes, there is something fundamentally wrong with the American church in most places.


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    A.Tumbleweed wrote:

    If we are wounded, it it because someone in “the church” committed a crime against us that went unpunished and was covered up by people who were supposed to be protecting us.
    Someone stole something from us. He stole my life. I live with the crime every day. I just don’t want that to happen to anyone else, especially in the name of God and with the blessing and resources of any church, no matter their theological persuasion.
    Grace.

    Bless you. I am so sorry that happened to you. I will pray for you.

    Stories like yours are why I am here. I was a witness to abuse and abusers that were so horrendous, and yet defended and protected by church leaders, that I was losing faith in the church.

    The child sex abuser who motivated Dee and Deb to start TWW was my seminary classmate. I met countless men in Christian college and seminary who were clearly abusive and yet offered jobs with no due process or background checks simply because they were male, or talented speakers, or related to a Christian celebrity. Most of my female friends from Christian college eventually divorced because their husbands were physically abusive and then their families and churches turned on them. And I myself have been a victim of assault by men claiming to be Christians, who were then defended by other male Christians simply because the perpetrators were male and I was female.

    Predators love the church because they can get away with their crimes for a long time. Child sex abuse is a heinous crime. Clergy sex abuse is a crime. Protecting abusers is a crime. If churches aren’t willing to stand up for victims, then it is left to those outside the church.


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    Actually, I think this is helpful after an attack like this.

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?


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    Jimmy wrote:

    I’ve appreciated a lot of what you all do but honestly a big part of what you do is obviously a personal vendetta against people you don’t agree with. You’re great at lumping all people with a particular doctrine together and vilifying them.

    Yeah, Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians, NAR, Assembly of God, Calvinistd, 9Marks, Acts29, Nondenominational, Word of Faith, etc., – they’re all the same, aren’t they?
    And as far as exposing the evils they commit…….. hmmm, was it Jesus and Paul who both said we we supposed to hide evil and look the other way?


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    ishy wrote:

    I met countless men in Christian college and seminary who were clearly abusive and yet offered jobs with no due process or background checks simply because they were male, or talented speakers, or related to a Christian celebrity.

    I have known many of them in my 60+ year journey through SBC life. We need a paradigm shift in the way we screen ministry candidates, even before they graduate from seminary! There needs to be a fundamental change in approach and underlying assumptions about who is qualified to lead the people of God. Being male, with a gift of gab, and related to a Christian celebrity should not be on a search committee checklist for prospective pastors. We need to exercise more discernment than that! The harasser behind Dee’s problems this morning could very well be such a pastor!


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    Max wrote:

    There needs to be a fundamental change in approach and underlying assumptions about who is qualified to lead the people of God. Being male, with a gift of gab, and related to a Christian celebrity should not be on a search committee checklist for prospective pastors. We need to exercise more discernment than that!

    And if they disqualify themselves, the church needs to stand up and enforce that disqualification.


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    I’m so sorry you are dealing with this kind of harassment. I look forward to hearing how it may end up working in your favor. In the meantime, what you are experiencing is exactly why TWW struck a chord with so many and is so widely read. Too many have been silenced by religious “powers that be.” I hope people in your denomination will get a glimpse of why this blog exists through the actions of this bully. Sometimes people don’t understand until they see or experience it for themselves. You have my support.


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    NJ wrote:

    Wow, sounds like things are going to be interesting for the school group my daughters are going with Monday morning. Two large tour buses full of kids, plus several parents leaving at 6:00 a.m. to convoy down there. I hope they don’t have too much trouble finding an area to park in.

    Unless they have made reservations ahead of time, there may well be a problem. And, they are expecting traffic to be a nightmare. Troopers and National Guard will be stationed all over the parkways and interstates. It might be wise for the bus drivers to come into town with the gas tanks as full as possible. I do hope all goes well for your daughters. Most of all, I hope they have safe travels!
    The Jefferson Davis park, on the Todd-Christian county line will be a camp ground. Not very far from the park, Mennonite families have invited other Mennonites from far and wide to come camp out on their farms – tractors, and horses and buggies!
    I, for one, stocked up on groceries, and took care of some business so that we can hunker down like an ice storm is coming! My daughter and sil live on the west side of Hopkinsville. My daughter is going to try to get out and about on the ATV and get photos. My sil has been conscripted to direct traffic when he isn’t busy with IT stuff!


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    Lydia wrote:

    I have an extended family member who is the IT person for a small college town near you guys and he is freaking, too.

    Murray, Bowling Green, and Clarksville, TN are expecting crazy, too! Their campuses all have observatories. All internet servers and phone servers in the area are expecting overloads. AT&T is saying that residents may not have cell phone service. Imagine what this is going to do to the internet and phone services for the cities infrastructures!!!
    My sil has to deal with NASA, too. They are setting up at Orchard Dale farm, just outside of Hopkinsville. Don’t want to know what Ivanka Trumps arrival will to to traffic!
    I just keep thinking how funny it would be if we get a little thunderstorm at the right (wrong?) time!


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    ishy wrote:

    Child sex abuse is a heinous crime. Clergy sex abuse is a crime. Protecting abusers is a crime.

    Quite so. Exactly so.

    But and also when we say ‘crime’ we mean against the laws of the land. There is an element in ‘the church’ which does not think that Christians owe all that much allegiance to the laws of the land. They are more into the us (church) vs them (secular government) ideation. Hint to whoever has not been exposed to these people: just keep watching the news media and you are about to get a really vivid picture of who they are and how they do. And yes, they do sit on pews and claim that they are doing God’s business at least in part by opposing the very laws of the land they live in. And they do think that those of us who disagree with their stance on this issue (church vs government) are probably ‘not saved’.

    Sad to say, but quite true.


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Murray, Bowling Green, and Clarksville, TN are expecting crazy, too! Their campuses all have observatories.

    I know a bunch of people from here who are going up to Pigeon Forge. I am just going to stay home and watch the dappled shade from inside my house.


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    Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

    This whole current situation underscores some of the fundamental problems with American Christianity…

    Understatement of the year….


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    Lydia wrote:

    I read an article in the NYT that interviewed the mayors of tiny Wickliffe and Barlow, you might find interesting. They pointed out there is no way to judge potential crowd.

    It’s going to be bad, All of the hotel rooms in Hopkinsville and Cadiz have been booked for months, at jacked up prices ($300 to $400 per day). All campground and observations points that can be reserved have been. RVs and camper trailers are already rolling in. Gasoline prices are already being jacked up. I saw far more tractor trailers on the Pennyrile Parkway yesterday than usual. Oh, did you hear about the Louisville man who is rolling his globe to Hopkinsville, on foot? Yeah, I passed him on 68/80 when I was going to town and back home yesterday.
    Hopkinsville is beginning to panic – they are now expecting worse than predicted.


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    okrapod wrote:

    But and also when we say ‘crime’ we mean against the laws of the land. There is an element in ‘the church’ which does not think that Christians owe all that much allegiance to the laws of the land.

    I think that is true, but I think a lot of those who end up as leaders are frauds and know they are can prey on the church. True wolves. But those people who think laws don’t apply to them are the ones keeping the predators in place because they often bring the $$.


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    okrapod wrote:

    There is an element in ‘the church’ which does not think that Christians owe all that much allegiance to the laws of the land.

    I think there is a difference between something that is against the law and something that is truly immoral. Some crimes, like the ones we have discussed, are both illegal and immoral. By contrast, I don’t think smoking MJ is immoral but it is illegal (sort of).

    But Christians really should be on board with child abuse being illegal and immoral, and the fact that they are so blasé about it is deeply disturbing. This is completely haywire! I would say how did we get to this point, but I think it’s all tied up in so many errant teachings that have filtered in it would take a book to explain.


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    @ okrapod:
    I have seen this.


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    ishy wrote:

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    I discovered TWW when they wrote a post about the media coverage of pedophiles at my former ‘church.’ Prior to that, this ‘church’ had thrown my family under the bus for a crisis which they helped create. I was in my early days of learning that spiritual abuse was even a ‘thing.’ I didn’t want to believe that these Christians, that I trusted, valued covering their back sides more than walking in integrity. They weren’t even transparent enough to inform the members that so many pedophiles existed among us. We had to hear about most of them from the media!

    This was in 2012. I’ve been reading here ever since. Back then the cover-ups at SGM were coming to light and TWW was writing about it. I saw so many parallels between the experiences of the ex-SGM members and my own. I had a lot to learn about just how depraved human beings in positions of power can be. They should never be given blind submission even if, and maybe especially if, they profess to follow Jesus. I’ll keep looking for fruit. The words mean nothing to me anymore.


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    @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    Ha ha. The globe guy is from Louisville. Figures. You might get a taste of why some of us are getting more and more weary of the expensive and crowded urban experience. It’s a microcosm of daily life. .


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    okrapod wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    Child sex abuse is a heinous crime. Clergy sex abuse is a crime. Protecting abusers is a crime.

    Quite so. Exactly so.

    But and also when we say ‘crime’ we mean against the laws of the land. There is an element in ‘the church’ which does not think that Christians owe all that much allegiance to the laws of the land. They are more into the us (church) vs them (secular government) ideation. Hint to whoever has not been exposed to these people: just keep watching the news media and you are about to get a really vivid picture of who they are and how they do. And yes, they do sit on pews and claim that they are doing God’s business at least in part by opposing the very laws of the land they live in. And they do think that those of us who disagree with their stance on this issue (church vs government) are probably ‘not saved’.

    Sad to say, but quite true.

    From where I sit both sides are trotting out Jesus as a moral indicator of this or that. It’s bizarre.


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Hopkinsville is beginning to panic – they are now expecting worse than predicted.

    They will be picking up beer cans and sandwich wrappers for months! The guy from Louisville rolling the globe your way creeps me out. Keep your children at home and the dogs unleashed. (Hmmm … that would also be good counsel in considering some ministers and ministries these days.)


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    okrapod wrote:

    There is an element in ‘the church’ which does not think that Christians owe all that much allegiance to the laws of the land.

    This is true. It is also chilling! It is also goes against what scripture seems to support. . .


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    ishy wrote:

    Bless you. I am so sorry that happened to you. I will pray for you.

    Thank you 🙂


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    Jimmy wrote:

    I’ve appreciated a lot of what you all do but honestly a big part of what you do is obviously a personal vendetta against people you don’t agree with. You’re great at lumping all people with a particular doctrine together and vilifying them. You’re great at making condescending names (calvinista) to belittle people you don’t agree with. You’re tone is wounded and it shows in your writing style (almost every post) and it attracts other wounded christian voyeurs.
    You’ve done some important work in keeping people accountable but overall I mostly feel sad for you. I can’t imagine a life that revolves around looking for dirt to dish.

    Well, Jimmy, this just sums up your inability to discern what goes on here.

    BTW – I’m not a wounded Christian voyeur. You seem to be doing a bit of lumping yourself.


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    ishy wrote:

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    To check to see if I am crazy, or not. And to answer questions like: Are there others like me who have struggled to fit in to conventional churches? Does anyone care that this is going on?

    I was brought here when I started to see things happen in our local church that seemed hinkey, and when the YRR takeover happened to us.

    I stay and mostly read because no one in my circle of friends wants to discuss any of this. So it’s all important to me.


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    Bridget wrote:

    I’m not a wounded Christian voyeur

    Nor I.

    But am I the only one singing ‘wounded Christian voyeur’ to the tune of ‘Onward Christian soldier’?


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    @ Max:
    My daughter may live in Hoptown, but she has three large dogs, and …. uhm mm…. some home protection things…..
    She has an African Grey Congo Parrot that mimics a great police siren …….. and he talks, a lot, large vocab. He scares the neighborhood kids!


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    Bridget wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    There is an element in ‘the church’ which does not think that Christians owe all that much allegiance to the laws of the land.
    This is true. It is also chilling! It is also goes against what scripture seems to support. . .

    Have seen and heard the same. It is disconcerting.


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    @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):

    Wild! At least the eclipse doesn’t last as long as an Ice storm can. Good luck….Keep hunkered down!


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    Bridget wrote:

    BTW – I’m not a wounded Christian voyeur. You seem to be doing a bit of lumping yourself.

    I’m not a wounded Christian voyeur, either……… just plain fightin’ mad over the way women (myself included) are treated. Boy, have I learned a lot since I found TWW. The users and abusers do not need to be protected, they need to be exposed for what they are. And, if Mark Dever, TVC, Mark Driscoll, etc have no problem publically shaming people, they shouldn’t have any problem taking a little public shaming themselves.


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    Max wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    Sometimes somebody will say something under some name or other

    Mark Driscoll trolled blogs voicing concerns about the potty-mouth from Seattle; he used an alias “William Wallace II” to slam bloggers and commenters.

    Is that where the “penis home” terminology began?

    In any case, he NEVER realized Braveheart had been HEAVLY fictionalized.


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    I’m not a wounded Christian voyeur, either……… just plain fightin’ mad over the way women (myself included) are treated. Boy, have I learned a lot since I found TWW.

    I lost ten years of personality development to End Time Prophecy and Shepherding. My writing partner lost 15 to End Time Prophecy. Sold a bait-and-switch bill of goods and fighting mad.


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    Max wrote:

    The harasser behind Dee’s problems this morning could very well be such a pastor!

    If he is, all the more reason he needs to be exposed and taken down.


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    @ okrapod:
    okrapod wrote:

    I keep asking myself why these things were not made more clear. If God intended to explain all this, like the issue of the Trinity’s internal relationships, then why are we all sitting here observing that things are not clear-if one looks only at scripture-just not clear enough to quell questions and debates both in the beginnings of Christianity and now also?

    I don’t know the answer to that question, but God was explicit on multiple occasions about things when there was no way of misunderstanding, and human beings still messed it up. So there’s that. But another thing is that maybe we have misunderstood the purpose of the texts that we have. And, if that is not a peculiar statement coming from me, I don’t know what is. But it put it out there as a possibility. But I don’t think we need to go to that extreme. The texts are written in one culture that is very far removed from ours historically and linguistically. Throw in the intervening church history and the baggage that adds to interpretation, and I think that accounts for a lot of the confusion without putting it on God.


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    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Yeah, Catholics, Baptists, Presbyterians, NAR, Assembly of God, Calvinistd, 9Marks, Acts29, Nondenominational, Word of Faith, etc., – they’re all the same, aren’t they?

    Sin-levelling, the Crooked Christian’s friend.


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    I’m glad that the blog queens are taking this seriously, and getting legal counsel. I’m mildly curious about the contents of the letters, but I’m far more interested in seeing justice done. If sharing the contents of the letters would compromise any sort of legal case, I would prefer you not publish the letters.

    But if it helps to bring the letters into the light… Also good. I’m confident that our blog queens will do what’s best.

    Just a thought… The internet is pretty much the “Wild West,” with people using imaginary names and writing all sorts of things, myself included. But when you start sending false info through the US Mail, things can get serious very quickly.


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    @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    Hee hee. Maybe the cross guy will come, too. He lugs a huge cross (on wheels) around town.


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    We need to quit thinking or acting like the church is actually ‘the church’. The wheat, aka ‘the church’, grows in the field with the tares, aka the world, and all of it sits on the pew and sings in the choir and both wheat and tares preach and sit on boards and committees. And they both write books and teach in seminaries and give speeches and smile and shake hands and pat you on the back. Telling one from the other sometimes seems pretty obvious and sometimes seems just impossible.

    If I understand what Jesus said we cannot solve this and must wait for the end and literally apparently leave it to the angels when all is said and done, however and whenever that plays out. Meanwhile we have to practice discernment, reconsider what our stance should be with the church and protect ourselves and each other. Easier said than done.

    Which means that calling evil ‘evil’ when it can actually be identified is necessary to protect people. The Deebs do this well.


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    @ Lea:

    Am now….


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    @ Lea:

    Am now….okrapod wrote:

    Which means that calling evil ‘evil’ when it can actually be identified is necessary to protect people. The Deebs do this well.

    That’s part of the problem. So if one decides to call out evil, be prepared for the fallout. People tend to be very protective and in vested in their institutions and leaders. You will often stand alone. That scares people because so many obtain identity from a group/tribe. So they stay silent. Look the other way. Point that others are worse, etc.

    As another perspective, Peter said judgement begins with us. Paul pretty much said the same in 1 Corin. But not all evil is obvious to everyone. I have been shocked at how many are willing to dumb down some pretty heinous things because the person said I repent.


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    okrapod wrote:

    What am I missing here? Is it all the same ‘Jimmy’ and is this the person in question, or has my aging brain blown a gasket? What is the story behind the ‘Jimmy’ that I have seen referenced in the past?

    Jimmy AKA Seneca Griggs AKA other stuff but whose real name I’ve forgotten runs this little beauty: http://wartburgwhiners.blogspot.co.uk/ which doesn’t contradict in any way at all, no, not even a little bit, his admonishments in this thread. Not the least little bit. Not at all.

    He used to comment here & regularly freaked people out with his repeated mantra that child sex abusers are just sinners like the rest of us, & we should be paying more attention to this, not just all these victims who need to forgive & get on. My ‘favourite’ was the abuser who got out of prison & thought it was perfectly acceptable to go back to his old house & live there despite the fact that his victims (neighbourhood kids) saw him all the time & basically had their abuser living among them. Jimmy’s response: he owns that house, it’s legal. Oh the very depths of compassion!

    Anyway, he has made a mark on other forums but this is the only place I know him from. I’m still a big fan.

    He got put into permanent moderation, not banned, from here. It just means his posts have to be approved before being allowed on thread.


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    Oops. Lea. You aren’t supposed to be in there.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I lost ten years of personality development to End Time Prophecy and Shepherding.

    I lost about 6 years to End Times Mania, and took a few more to fully recover. All of the current lunacy over the eclipse and how it might be some sort of secret message about how God is about to judge the US… It makes me angry.

    Even when it comes from a “respected” person like Anne Graham Lotz…


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    @ Jimmy:

    Seriously Jimmy, you sound like Donald Trump trying to re-spin the Charlottesville tragedy.


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    @ Gram3:
    Totally agree. This will probably come off as blasphemous to some but it struck me because of something Phillip Payne said recently. He went to the Vatican to research one of the oldest manuscripts. (He found very interesting things about 1 Corin 14. I won’t go into it here)

    It was his statement how impressed he was about the integrity of the scribes in getting every single jot and tittle correct even down to what was added later, etc. Painstakingly care for the text.

    It sort of hit me about the NT and the Jewish scribe tradition of telling the story, recalling events, etc, as accurately as possible (What subsequent translators do is the big problem)

    That, to me, is “inspiration” and even “inerrancy”.


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    @ GSD [Getting Stuff Done]:

    So agree.
    Mailing letters is way too personal. Almost like the start of stalking someone. Praying it does not escalate.


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    @ Gram3:

    Let us say that the Chicago agreement was at least mostly correct about scripture. Then let us compare how the parable of the king who gave a wedding feast for his son and how the parable is told in Matthew compared to how it is told in Luke. There is a significant difference in how the response of the king to rejection of his invitation resulted in what happened to those who rejected the invitation.

    The differences are neither cultural nor historical (it was a parable) or linguistic. But there are differences. The king is portrayed differently. So either we think that the differences matter, or else we think that the differences do not matter, but either way we must have reasons for choosing between matter and don’t matter.

    That is the sort of thing I see as a difficulty in dealing with scripture. I know that culture and linguistics and such a very important to some people, but not so much to me, seeing that there is surely some basic principle behind what is written which transcends culture and which is applicable in some form regardless of cultural differences, albeit looking quite different in another culture. I leave the cultural issues to those for whom it is more important that it is to me. But this other-things like how to understand the thinking and behavior of the king in the parable and how far did the king go in his reaction against those who rejected his invitation, and what that means or not to our understanding of the king, that is the sort of thing that bothers me.

    And I do not have it resolved in my own mind. Why would the Spirit put forth the same story with such differences, assuming inspiration however understood?


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    Lydia wrote:

    Oops. Lea. You aren’t supposed to be in there.

    I’m everywhere.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Perhaps the temptation of salvation by doctrine alone is just as extreme as some idea of salvation by works alone. Using a christianese comment that I frequently heard in Baptist fundamentalist circles ‘I just don’t have any peace about this’.

    There again, two fair questions are raised:
    1) What is Salvation?
    2) What do you (generic you) mean by ‘works’?


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    Jimmy wrote:

    I’ve appreciated a lot of what you all do but honestly a big part of what you do is obviously a personal vendetta against people you don’t agree with. You’re great at lumping all people with a particular doctrine together and vilifying them. You’re great at making condescending names (calvinista) to belittle people you don’t agree with.

    Are you Jimmy as in Seneca Griggs?

    If you are, you do the same thing.
    Anyone who disagrees with complementarianism, Griggs puts under the umbrella of “liberal” or “feminist.”

    Over on my blog, I’ve discussed this, and I’ve mentioned there (and here) that I’ve never identified as a liberal or a feminist, but it doesn’t stop complementarians like Griggs from referring to me (and all non-comps) as such.

    Is that fair?


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    Jimmy wrote:

    You’re tone is wounded and it shows in your writing style (almost every post) and it attracts other wounded christian voyeurs.

    I don’t understand how this is a criticism or a bad thing?

    Jesus Christ did not turn away people who had been wounded by religious leaders or religious communities.

    Where else are wounded people supposed to go? Some of them who show up on this blog tried going to their pastors or churches and got turned away or criticized, rather than heard or supported.

    If churches aren’t going to listen, that leaves the internet. People are going to get their grievances out one way or another.


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    Jimmy wrote:

    I can’t imagine a life that revolves around looking for dirt to dish.

    The dirt and trash finds it way to them, they don’t have to go looking for it.

    I’m amazed by people who think this blog is not up-beat and sunny enough.

    For pity’s sake, one of the main purposes of this blog is to air stories that churches deal poorly with or cover up, such as child abuse by pastors.

    Do you expect cases of child abuse by pastors to be happy clappy?


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    Gram3 wrote:

    If the traditional clobber verse interpretations were sufficient, doctrinal innovations as brazen as ESS would not have been necessary.

    Excellent point.

    It was similar to one I saw mentioned in another paper.

    Over the centuries (literally 100s of years), one after the other complementarian argument has fallen, so complementarians keep cooking up new ones.

    If you have to keep coming up with that many new arguments to defend the same points repeatedly, it looks as though you’re less looking for truth and more for defending your agenda.

    How many times and in how many ways does complementarianism have to be proven wrong before comps just admit it and give up?


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    Daisy wrote:

    I’m amazed by people who think this blog is not up-beat and sunny enough.

    “Stay Sweet… Stay Sweet… Stay Sweet…”

    “Ignorance is Bliss and I Want Euphoria!”


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    There again, two fair questions are raised:
    1) What is Salvation?
    2) What do you (generic you) mean by ‘works’?

    In practice through a LOT of Evangelicalism:
    1) Whatever I Have That You DON’T.
    2) Whatever You Do That I Don’t, Lukewarm Apostate.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Are you Jimmy as in Seneca Griggs?

    AKA the Man of Many Names.


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    okrapod wrote:

    What is the story behind the ‘Jimmy’ that I have seen referenced in the past?

    He may be the same guy as James Brown, also known as Seneca Griggs, aka, Megs48, aka Buzz English, and who knows how many other screen names he uses?

    I don’t know if the Jimmy you’re referring to is the same one as Griggs, though. It could possibly be another Jimmy that has nothing to do with Griggs.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    AKA the Man of Many Names.

    I’m pretty sure he was also posting to my Daisy blog under the names Megs48 and Buzz English.


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    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    I lost about 6 years to End Times Mania, and took a few more to fully recover. All of the current lunacy over the eclipse and how it might be some sort of secret message about how God is about to judge the US… It makes me angry.

    Oh, it gets better.

    last night my writing partner tipped me off to the latest Rapture Scare going down some time next month. A Rapture Scare that originated in flat-out Astrology. According to him, this is the rationale:

    1) Both the Sun and Jupiter will enter Virgo.
    2) Jupiter is called “The Christ Star” (yeah, first time I’ve ever heard of that).
    3) This fulfills the Prophecy in Revelation with the Virgin (Virgo) crowned with stars (the constellation Virgo) gives birth to the Child (Jesus/Jupiter).
    4) Doesn’t say if all this goes down when the Moon also enters Virgo (“The Moon Under Her Feet”), but that wouldn’t surprise me.
    5) “THIS IS IT!!! IT’S PROPHESIED! IT’S PROPHESIED!!!”

    My writing partner is going to have to dust off his “DON’T GO STUPID ON ME!” sermon this coming Sunday. Again.

    P.S. The last Rapture Scare I can think of that had an astrological history was the Jupiter Effect Rapture Scare of 1981. Started out as a fringe science proposal, got picked up on by astrologers (an EIGHT-planet conjunction!), then got Christianized into Fulfillment of End Time Prophecy.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Then he started a blog with a riff off name to this one. Evidently, TWW really gets under his skin.

    I did a couple of posts on my Daisy blog critical of some of his views and his “Whiner” Blog posts.

    (If I can be bothered, there may be one or two more in the pipeline.)

    Griggs doesn’t really put much thought into to most of his posts at his Whiner blog.

    He is in the habit of linking to whatever new post Dee makes here, then he just gives a one or two sentence dismissal of it, or an insult.

    He doesn’t really explain why he disagrees with their posts in a meaningful way. Just links to their posts and says, “See, they hate conservative evangelicals over there,” then maybe lists some random insult, like Dee’s hair is funny looking or her mama dress her funny.

    I don’t entirely understand his manner of posting. If you take exception with some post they’ve made here, why not lay out more a case against it, rather than a flippant one liner about it?


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    Daisy wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    AKA the Man of Many Names.

    I’m pretty sure he was also posting to my Daisy blog under the names Megs48 and Buzz English.

    “My name is Legion, for We Are Many.”


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    Lea wrote:

    Jimmy wrote:
    wounded christian voyeurs.
    Band Name.

    And now all we need is a lyricist. The band must definitely be Heavy Metal with lots of screaming and smashing on stage.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    last night my writing partner tipped me off to the latest Rapture Scare going down some time next month.

    I’ve never been so happy to be blissfully unaware of this. Nope. Don’t miss it. And I don’t miss storing up 5-gallon buckets of wheat berries, home canned vegetables, and kerosene for the apocalypse. I DO love homemade bread and fresh vegetables. Just not the end-is-nigh frenzy preparedness.


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    ishy wrote:

    Actually, I think this is helpful after an attack like this.

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    I came to TWW after spending two decades in a church that “valued women highly” and put them “on a pedestal” – so long as they kept to their place, which in reality was sub-human. Something like a golden retriever, with the added expectation of providing physical pleasure on demand, abandoning any dreams or talents of their own unless they could reformulate them to support some man’s vision (e.g. father or husband), practicing themselves and imposing on their children “cheerful, prompt obedience” and such.

    It is soul-killing to live as a non-human.


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    p.s. TWW provided a badly needed reality check. @ Refugee:


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    ishy wrote:

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back

    What brought me to TWW was a Google search. I had entered “leaving Christianity” and saw a 9 marks article by Dever about not allowing people to leave the church. Thought it was nuts so searched “9 marks” and here I am.
    I come back for the posts & conversation. It’s really the only religion related activity I take part in.
    It’s helped greatly in figuring things out spiritually and while I no longer consider myself “Christian”, I like the echurch and insights. If Christianity has any relevance it’s through venues like this.


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    Refugee wrote:

    p.s. TWW provided a badly needed reality check. @ Refugee:

    +1


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    p.p.s. It is also soul-killing for those who treat others as non-human and come to ingrain such an attitude in such a culture.@ Refugee:


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    1) Both the Sun and Jupiter will enter Virgo.
    2) Jupiter is called “The Christ Star” (yeah, first time I’ve ever heard of that).
    3) This fulfills the Prophecy in Revelation with the Virgin (Virgo) crowned with stars (the constellation Virgo) gives birth to the Child (Jesus/Jupiter).
    4) Doesn’t say if all this goes down when the Moon also enters Virgo (“The Moon Under Her Feet”), but that wouldn’t surprise me.
    5) “THIS IS IT!!! IT’S PROPHESIED! IT’S PROPHESIED!!!”

    When the moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter aligns with mars….


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “Stay Sweet… Stay Sweet… Stay Sweet…”
    “Ignorance is Bliss and I Want Euphoria!”

    I really don’t see a way to make stories of spiritual abuse or child abuse by, or in, churches perky.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    So you aren’t freeze drying your food so you can eat it 25 years from now? 😉

    Me either!


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    Jimmy wrote:

    a big part of what you do is obviously a personal vendetta against people you don’t agree with

    Did Jesus and the Apostles have a personal vendetta or were they warning the Church to be alert, when they said things like”

    “You cross land and sea to make one convert, and when you get one, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves!” (Jesus, Matthew 23:15)

    “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? (Jesus, Matthew 23:33)

    “Beware of Alexander the coppersmith, he did me great harm” (Paul, 2 Timothy 4:14).

    “I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.” (John, 1 John 2:26)

    etc.

    It is not a personal vendetta when one watches the church, considers the facts, reports accounts of abuse and aberrations of faith, and sounds an alarm for believers to be cautious around certain ministers and ministries. To remain silent would be the greater sin. Independent observers and those who have walked through the valley of experience are often better able to discern error than those who sit under it and have been charmed by it. Once you see it, you can’t un-see it.


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    ishy wrote:

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW?

    C J took a leave of absence.


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    I am working on the Letter post. I had to bring my stepfather to the hospital where he was admitted for pneumonia. This has been on heckuva week.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    P.S. The last Rapture Scare I can think of that had an astrological history was the Jupiter Effect Rapture Scare of 1981.

    You don’t recall the book “88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988,” which sold 4.5 million copies? And the sequel, “The Final Shout: Rapture report 1989.” Sales were down a bit on the sequel, but the author made lots of money. Thankfully, I was out of that mindset by then.

    And yes, I had heard of the star chart thing. And the second eclipse that occurs in seven years, which will form a giant X over the US, with the center right over where the great rivers meet, right over the New Madrid Fault? [Actually, it’s 6.5 years from now, and the X is centered just south of Carbondale, IL, but it’s close enough for whackadoodle prophetic prognostication.]


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Using the U.S. mail can result in the offense becoming a matter for federal investigation and prosecution depending on what all is involved, but also, may make the civil tort eligible for a suit in federal court by a private attorney.


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    ishy wrote:

    Actually, I think this is helpful after an attack like this.
    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    I found TWW when trying understand what
    * new * Calvinism was about. I was googling through various sites and came across TWW and discovered a wealth of information on, neo Calvinism.

    Our pastor had retired and a new, young pastor came on board. Women were being, ESV bibles started showing up, Piper books courses started appearing in SS classes. Eldership was being promoted, etc. Last straw was, women being removed from boards, as deacons. The church was going backwards to the fifties.

    I stay because the Deebs are whistle blowers on many issues within Christianity. But especially, their calling out as shameful, despicable the abuse of women, and the sexual abuse of children, that has been, is being, ignored or covered up, within Christianity.

    I support their every effort to expose these practices.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    We must just love ‘it could happen any moment, any minute of the day’ like the song. So what could happen? The rapture or some cyber disaster or the Yellowstone catastrophe or a cardiovascular event or epidemic or collapse of the banking world or vehicle accident on the highway or what? It was so much more fun when I was young and thought that I would surely meet Mr. Wonderful any second.


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    okrapod wrote:

    If God intended to explain all this, like the issue of the Trinity’s internal relationships, then why are we all sitting here observing that things are not clear

    I think that Jesus gave us a key, when he said we are to love our neighbor as we love ourself. One who loves does not diminish the one that is loved, but seeks their enhancement. Complementarians do not seek the enhancement of women!


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    An Attorney wrote:

    I think that Jesus gave us a key, when he said we are to love our neighbor as we love ourself. One who loves does not diminish the one that is loved, but seeks their enhancement. Complementarians do not seek the enhancement of women!

    Or Jesus Himself…


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    Jimmy wrote:

    l I mostly feel sad for you. I can’t imagine a life that revolves around looking for dirt to dish.

    I wish I lived in a world in which most churches responded well to abuse. Unfortunately, it is ridiculously easy to come up with posts. We used to be a lot like you. In fact, Deb asked me, just before we started blogging, “Will we have enough to write about?” To be truthful, I was a bit unsure.

    Sadly, most of the stories that we write about come directly from readers and those experiencing. We rarely have to “go looking.”

    I think your sadness towards us is misplaced. You should feel sad for the many people who have been abused in churches. You should feel sad for pastors who discipline people for asking relevant questions. You should feel sad for the many children who were sexually abused in churches who have grown up and walked away from the faith because the church offered them little support and, instead, went and sat on the side of the offender in court.

    I wonder about you. You did not mention your concern for victims and that is what concerns me the most. You have expressed zero compassion. Instead you make a joke about *wounded Christian voyeurs?* Seriously???

    Now, you need to do something. When we write posts, we actually have proof for why we believe what we say. You claim we have personal vendettas against people we disagree with. Prove it!

    As for the word *calvinist* if you truly did you research, you would know why we invented that word. You see, we like many Reformed people. The pastor who does our E Church is Reformed. We wanted to talk about a subset of Reformed folks and that is why we came up with the term *calvinista* or as we like to say “This ain’t your Daddy’s Calvinism.”

    Anyway, I look forward to your *proof * about a vendetta. I am sure you are a man of conviction and would not say such a thing without solid evidence.

    Wait until you see what one *calvinista* tried with us this week. It is only Wednesday and I am exhausted.


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    I came to TWW as a result of a Google search (don’t remember what) and stayed because of the integrity of the Deebs and the community here. I don’t post much and life has interrupted (mother died & I am currently in hospital) my time online, but I read whenever possible


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    @ Niteowl:
    Niteowl, I prayed for you just now.


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    dee wrote:

    Wait until you see what one *calvinista* tried with us this week.

    I knew it!!


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    dee wrote:

    I am working on the Letter post. I had to bring my stepfather to the hospital where he was admitted for pneumonia. This has been on heckuva week.

    Praying for your strength. Sorry about your step-father. Hope he gets well soon.


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    ishy wrote:

    Actually, I think this is helpful after an attack like this.

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    I had to think for a couple of minutes. I know the first time I ever commented had to do with the Bayly brothers no longer being in the PCA. It might have been a post on Doug Phillips. By that time, I was looking for answers to the questions I had about the neopatriarchy movement as I had experienced it. A lot of it, sad to say, was found in the home schooling community. In the 5 years since then, it’s mind boggling how many things have come out.

    Oh, and TWW still has the best blog roll off to the side.


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    dee wrote:

    I am working on the Letter post. I had to bring my stepfather to the hospital where he was admitted for pneumonia. This has been on heckuva week.

    Dee, it looks like the Devil and his minions are messin’ with you any way they can. You must be doin’ somethin’ right!


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    ishy wrote:

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    I also came to TWW via Google searches after discovering that the elders and pastors of my former church were not the honorable men I had believed them to be. It’s a long, complicated, and ugly story involving authoritarian abuse and financial maleficence that led to my whole family leaving the church we’d loved and supported for 20 years, where all of us were baptized and where my children grew up and had all their friends.

    We grieved the loss of that community deeply, even though the Holy Spirit made it clear to us that there was no way we could continue in it. Reading the posts and comments here and at Internet Monk was an important part of my personal grieving process and ultimately of my healing. I’m grateful to Dee and Deb and to all who participate here for the way this place fosters openness and candor, humor and sarcasm occasionally, and above all support for the victims of abuse. God’s grace and peace to everyone.


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    okrapod wrote:

    Then let us compare how the parable of the king who gave a wedding feast for his son and how the parable is told in Matthew compared to how it is told in Luke.

    I couldn’t find the king’s wedding feast in Luke, so I need some help. I found the one in Matthew, and interpreting that one is difficult enough on its own.


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    I apologize if I posted this one already before (I don’t think I did):

    Civil War among the Complementarians
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2017/08/16/civil-war-among-complementarians/

    The debate, Giles observes, about the Trinity was not as Grudem and Ware dubbed it:
    a debate between evangelical complementarians and evangelical feminists (their term for Giles), but between confessional Reformed types and non-confessional, Bible-only types like Grudem, Ware, Burk, and Strachan.


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    @ ishy:
    I’m pretty sure I arrived here via Eagle, who I’d seen being pretty blunt about christian stuff over at iMonk I think it was. My brain had just blown up over calvinism while my Mum was dying & I was absolutely the walking wounded. I came, I saw people who spoke normally to each other & were civil, who questioned stuff & who cared, particularly for the victims of various kinds of abuse. There was also a wide range of commenters from many christian backgrounds, or former backgrounds, or none.
    Those are also reasons I’ve stayed, plus, the Deebs haven’t kicked me off yet.


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    @ dee:
    This site reminds me of Luther’s theses nailed on the door of the Wittenburg Castle Church. The theses were church concerns posted for university discussion and debate. This event resulted in far-reaching implications when a printer decided to disseminate them (the printing press was in its infancy in Germany and allowed inexpensive distribution of copies). Thus the debate intended for a local group went viral. (See: http://www.drstevej.com/printingpress.pdf)

    The world wide web is the modern press and an individual’s posting of church concerns can go viral if it strikes many concerned readers who struggle with the same issues.


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    ishy wrote:

    Actually, I think this is helpful after an attack like this.
    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    A link from Internet Monk some years ago.


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    I wish I could remember how I got here exactly, but I don’t. It’s likely I was searching for info about New Calvinists, though I had been aware of the cultic abuse at SGM for a very long time before the child abuse scandals became public. Been trying to remember all afternoon and I got nuthin’. I did lurk for quite some time before I ever commented. I do know that TWW finally gave explanations to the really weird theology I saw at SEBTS, and since nobody would talk with me about it, I had a lot of frustration.


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    GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    You don’t recall the book “88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988,” which sold 4.5 million copies? And the sequel, “The Final Shout: Rapture report 1989.” Sales were down a bit on the sequel, but the author made lots of money. Thankfully, I was out of that mindset by then.

    I do. Edgar Whisenhaunt’s “88 Reasons” Rapture Scare of 1988. I was mostly out of the loop by then, but my writing partner wasn’t. It was his End Time Prophecy burnout, similar to my Rosh Hashanah Rapture Scare burnout in 1975.

    P.S. I remember something about the 1981 Jupiter Effect Rapture Scare having something to do with Mo David and the COGs. Some vague memory about a news item with COGs standing on the steps in front of some public building chanting “FORTY DAYS! FORTY DAYS! FORTY DAYS!”


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    okrapod wrote:

    It was so much more fun when I was young and thought that I would surely meet Mr. Wonderful any second.

    That line reads like a Twilight fangirl who actually expects Sparkling Eddie to show up on her doorstep and sweep her away.


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    Mae wrote:

    Our pastor had retired and a new, young pastor came on board. Women were being, ESV bibles started showing up, Piper books courses started appearing in SS classes. Eldership was being promoted, etc. Last straw was, women being removed from boards, as deacons. The church was going backwards to the fifties.

    Or diagonally forward to the Republic of Holy Gilead.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    “Stay Sweet… Stay Sweet… Stay Sweet…”
    “Ignorance is Bliss and I Want Euphoria!”

    I really don’t see a way to make stories of spiritual abuse or child abuse by, or in, churches perky.

    But you know SOMEBODY’s gonna try.


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    Lea wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    1) Both the Sun and Jupiter will enter Virgo.
    2) Jupiter is called “The Christ Star” (yeah, first time I’ve ever heard of that).
    3) This fulfills the Prophecy in Revelation with the Virgin (Virgo) crowned with stars (the constellation Virgo) gives birth to the Child (Jesus/Jupiter).
    4) Doesn’t say if all this goes down when the Moon also enters Virgo (“The Moon Under Her Feet”), but that wouldn’t surprise me.
    5) “THIS IS IT!!! IT’S PROPHESIED! IT’S PROPHESIED!!!”

    When the moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter aligns with mars….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxonNvuCFRY

    I’m old enough to remember when that was on the Top 40.
    Kept hearing the title over AM Radio as “Angels Aquarium”.


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    @ ishy:
    I think somebody linked a blog about abuse…and I got from there to cry for justice/ssb/here..I don’t think I ever read church abuse sites before this. It’s been very enlightening!


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    @ dee:
    Very sorry. That’s so serious in the elderly. Have also been dealing with one of the truly decent from the greatest generation, my precious 97 year old step father. It always serves to help me focus on the bigger picture.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    okrapod wrote:
    Perhaps the temptation of salvation by doctrine alone is just as extreme as some idea of salvation by works alone. Using a christianese comment that I frequently heard in Baptist fundamentalist circles ‘I just don’t have any peace about this’.
    There again, two fair questions are raised:
    1) What is Salvation?
    2) What do you (generic you) mean by ‘works’?

    These are my questions too! Once I went down that road, my thinking changed drastically.


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    God will use this to bring more people than ever to this site, where they will find a safe place for connecting and healing.


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    @ Daisy:
    No kidding!


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    @ Niteowl:
    God bless you. Praying for recovery and peace.


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    ishy wrote:

    Actually, I think this is helpful after an attack like this.

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    When our former pastor was really pushing the “Gospel Project” material last year, my wife and I wanted to research about its contributors. And, lo and behold, the vast majority of them had some connection to the Neo-Cal movement. Also, our pastor listed our church on 9-Marks’ and The Gospel Coalition’s websites without anyone’s approval at church. As we began looking into these occurrences, TWW kept popping up at the top of our searches, since y’all examined those very things as well. As I continued to read other articles in this site, it dawned on me that this church-takeover ploy wasn’t something limited to our church or denomination, but was spreading throughout Christendom.

    I keep coming back here because our denomination (the SBC) is acting like a stupid teenager with his parents’ car keys right now. We never seem to know what will happen next as Mohler, Dever and their merry band of YRR minions wreak havoc in our denomination. I comment on this site to sound off the warning to be on the lookout for these sneaky, deceptive, power-hungry pastors! Thanks for putting up with my rants. There are truly no winners when these guys slither into your church!

    Also, I am encouraged that we’re not alone in this, and have had many commentators say some very kind and encouraging things!


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    @ Becky:

    Becky, this will come from left field, but are you a part of a fellowship located in Southeastern France?


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    I got here from a mention on fbcjaxwatchdog.


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    @ Root 66:
    That sounds so familiar. 🙁


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    Jimmy wrote:

    I’ve appreciated a lot of what you all do but honestly a big part of what you do is obviously a personal vendetta against people you don’t agree with. You’re great at lumping all people with a particular doctrine together and vilifying them. You’re great at making condescending names (calvinista) to belittle people you don’t agree with. You’re tone is wounded and it shows in your writing style (almost every post) and it attracts other wounded christian voyeurs.
    You’ve done some important work in keeping people accountable but overall I mostly feel sad for you. I can’t imagine a life that revolves around looking for dirt to dish.

    I have to say, if ever a post nailed the distinctly unchristian tone of one who wishes to shame those who tell the truth, this is it:

    1. Fake righteousness (i.e., post starts with words to the effect of “I appreciate what you’re doing”, but…then comes the hammer. The “appreciate” comment is an outright lie, it’s only cover so they can destroy you but maintain their own aura of goodness and even-handedness)

    2. Thought-stopping words such as “wounded” (which ranks right down there with “bitter”). The message is, basically, you’re not well, you’re flawed, you can’t be relied upon to make rational posts—at the end of the day, you’re worthless.

    3. Poor grammar (It should be “your” in the sentence “You’re tone is wounded”; why is it that trolls are almost always a bit short of literate?)

    4. Smug, condescending tone (as if it had come straight from a dialog between demons in [i]The Screwtape Letters[/i])

    5. No real details, no examples, fake helpfulness (other than “calvinista”, which the Deebs certainly didn’t invent), just generalized shaming. How is one to respond to such general charges, ones that address nothing in particular? I guess completely shut the blog down, there are no constructive comments that might enable one to change.

    5. “I feel sad for you.” – Doesn’t get any worse than that. No you don’t, Jimmy, stop lying. I understand this may be de rigueur in your circles, but just be straight with yourself and others. You don’t feel sad for the Deebs, you despise them, probably loathe them. Just admit it—let your “yes” be “yes” and your “no” be “no”.

    I tell you straight up, Jimmy, you can tell a person by their fruits, and yours speak very poorly of your character.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Lea wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    1) Both the Sun and Jupiter will enter Virgo.
    2) Jupiter is called “The Christ Star” (yeah, first time I’ve ever heard of that).
    3) This fulfills the Prophecy in Revelation with the Virgin (Virgo) crowned with stars (the constellation Virgo) gives birth to the Child (Jesus/Jupiter).
    4) Doesn’t say if all this goes down when the Moon also enters Virgo (“The Moon Under Her Feet”), but that wouldn’t surprise me.
    5) “THIS IS IT!!! IT’S PROPHESIED! IT’S PROPHESIED!!!”

    When the moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter aligns with mars….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxonNvuCFRY

    I’m old enough to remember when that was on the Top 40.
    Kept hearing the title over AM Radio as “Angels Aquarium”.

    Oh man, that means I am old too….


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    I am late to the “party” but I am praying for you and Deb….I am not shocked….As a fellow blogger, I am not shocked at what people say/do….in the name of “Jesus.”


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    Deb wrote:

    So you aren’t freeze drying your food so you can eat it 25 years from now?

    Hahahaha! No. I did buy a dehydrator years ago and tried my hand at it. I could never manage to make anything palatable with the results. Lacto-fermentation, otoh . . . Homemade sauerkraut is delicious!


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    Daisy wrote:

    If you take exception with some post they’ve made here, why not lay out more a case against it, rather than a flippant one liner about it?

    That’s the way many in his crowd roll. At bottom, Doug Wilson is no better, he just creates a lot of misdirection and uses two dollar words to create the impression that he’s not just about flippant, ignorant one liners.


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    @ dee:
    So sorry, Dee! Life seems to throw it all at us at once.


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    As far as the eclipse, those of you in its path, enjoy, but stay safe. I’m still off work and will be hunkered in my house. After a retina detachment and surgery last year, and recent cataract surgery, my eyes are too expensive to risk!


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    Burwell wrote:

    @ Becky:
    Becky, this will come from left field, but are you a part of a fellowship located in Southeastern France?

    That’s a Dutch flag, not French.
    The tricolor bands are horizontal instead of vertical.


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    Lea wrote:

    But am I the only one singing ‘wounded Christian voyeur’ to the tune of ‘Onward Christian soldier’?

    Haha!


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    I will tell my story of how TWW helped me a lot. I want Dee to know how her good works have impacted my life. =)

    My GF and I was having a meal with her mentor. Out of the blue my church was attacked. I didn’t expect this at all. And we were given a book by her mentor called 9 Marks of a healthy church.

    I did some research on this book from Mark Dever, and I was opened to a whole new world of church corruption. I didn’t know about any of these before. TWW and Wondering Eagle were the two biggest sites that really helped me understand the situation.

    Long story short, eventually I talked to her pastor out of good will. I warned him of the dangers of the 9 Marks system and how many people had already been hurt by it. Her pastor told me to my face that I am a false believer. He didn’t see true repentance in me. Because my church is a fake church filled with false believers. And because I disagree with some of his extreme theologies I am “obviously” a false believer. As such I am of course not fit to marry my GF.

    For example he said that when a non-believing fireman goes into a burning building to save a child, that action of saving the child is a sin. When a non-believing father loves his child, that pretended love is a sin. Because non-believers literally cannot do any good works and cannot truly love. Every single thing they do are for sinful selfish pretending reasons.

    it took a lot of scripture twisting to try to prove the above.

    Titus 1:15-16: If nothing is pure to a non-believer means that all things are sins, then the opposite is also true. That all things are pure to a believer means that nothing is sin to a believer. And the good works being discussed here is not every good work, but just the good work of preaching the Gospel. Of course, because how can a false prophet be fit to preach the Gospel? And these false prophets are much worst than an average non-believer.

    Romans 3:9-18 Firstly this disprove the neo-Calvinst claim that only expositional preaching can be done. Because Paul did a topical preaching right here, by pulling different verses from different parts of the bible. Secondly Psalms 14:4 (part of the quoted) is talking about the devourers of Christians, arch enemies of the church, not an average non-believer. Of course these end time Satanists, serving the anti-Christ, wouldn’t do anything good.

    Isaiah 64:6-7 The “no one calls God’s name” cannot possibly be taken literally, because Isaiah himself RIGHT THERE is calling God’s name. Isaiah is saying in general no one in Israel was calling God’s name, not literally no one. Also it say our good deeds are “like” polluted garments, not actually polluted garments. It is more talking about good deeds being “worthless in salvation” instead of good deeds being “sins”. Of course because our good works cannot cover our sins. Only Jesus can cover our sins. Our only hope is by crying out to God for mercy.

    I had talk to many other Christians about this. Not a single one would take this pastor’s extreme stance. We know that non-believers will go to hell. But even non-believers can do good works and can truly love. And sins can ONLY be sins when it is CLEARLY identified in the BIBLE as sins. We cannot claim that everything, even good works, are literally sins to a non-believer.

    It took a lot of emotional discussions and crying to get my GF to at least understand enough to leave her church to join a new one with me (I also have to leave my current church). And for her to agree to marry me. We had faced spiritual and pastoral abuse and survive through it. And I won’t be able to convince her without TWW’s help.

    If that pastor happens to read this and come after me, let God be a witness between us. Everything I said is the truth. I didn’t even name this church and the meetings all happened behind closed doors. I did that out of respect.

    Now back to topic. Let me just say that as much as we disagree with neo-Calvinist churches, we definitely underestimated how much neo-Calvinist HATES HATES HATES all the rest of us. They honestly think their church is the only possible true church. And anyone who disagree with any of their theologies are labeled fake Christians.

    Yet at the same time they would defend false believers like Dr. Iain Campbell. This man sleeps with at least 7 other women while married to his wife. 6 of these women were married, so Campbell has BETRAYED the trust of at least 6 husbands. These neo-Calvinists would defend Campbell to the death and say he is a true believer. While anyone not a neo-Calvinist is labeled a false believer.

    I pray that God opens up the eyes of neo-Calvinists so they can see the truth one day. I know that they honestly and seriously want to seek God and Jesus. Let us continue to love them. To be fair I sometimes are rude toward them too. Jesus ask us to love even our enemies, and this definitely fits right now.

    Dee trust me TWW is doing good works. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. =)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    Actually, I think this is helpful after an attack like this.
    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    A link from Internet Monk some years ago.

    Hmm…I followed Eagle & HUG over from imonk in the first year you guys were up. I was a couple years out of an abusive church and sorting through a total faith paradigm shift. This place was like a glass of cool water…


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    For disclaimer, that pastor didn’t say I am a false believer right there and then. That would happen a few meetings after when I first warned him about the dangers of neo-Calvinisim. Are they related? I think yes. But it wasn’t all at the same time. I don’t want to unfairly paint a bad picture of him.

    Either way I don’t feel I was treated fairly when he claimed that I am a false believer, after only meeting me a few times and without really knowing me. It seems like he already made up his mind after knowing which church I belong to. BTW my church is a good church. We are very missional in helping the poor, prostitutes and the least of these and bringing the Gospel to them.


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    ishy wrote:

    Actually, I think this is helpful after an attack like this.

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    I’m pretty sure that I first came here via a link from another blog, but I don’t remember which one. I was going through a difficult time and looking for resources to understand some of my church experiences. I have not experienced the sort of spiritual abuse that many other commenters here have, but I had several things happen that left me feeling like I had seen “behind the curtain” in my church and denomination (SBC). I was shaken by it all, and reading at TWW has helped me to understand that I am not alone and that my concerns were not all in my head.


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    Caroline wrote:

    I had several things happen that left me feeling like I had seen “behind the curtain” in my church

    Same experience here. What I learned I cannot unlearn and thus will never be so
    deferential with my trust again.


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    Law Prof wrote:

    1. Fake righteousness (i.e., post starts with words to the effect of “I appreciate what you’re doing”, but…then comes the hammer.

    Generally inserting “but” negates the statement that comes before it. For example Jimmy is probably a nice guy, but…


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    ishy wrote:

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?

    I was doing research on New-Calvinism and this site kept popping up. I eventually started to follow it and then comment. It’s been a great way to wire-brush my thinking on quite a few topics. I have gotten much more out of everyone here than I’ve been able to contribute.


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    ishy wrote:

    To everyone–what brought you to TWW?

    It was several years ago and I had just left a church that had become increasingly authoritarian. I was on the phone talking to someone in an organization selling some used video-conferencing equipment. When I asked the guy why they were selling the equipment, pennies on the dollar, he told me “they were closing their doors”. The organization was Mars Hill, I knew nothing about it at the time and didn’t even know it was a church. He then added without prompting “it wasn’t a moral failure”. That statement set off my bs detector and so that evening I searched for further information and very quickly found the Petry’s story and a link brought me here. So you could say Mark Driscoll sent me. And to correct the Mars Hill guy, theirs was a big time moral failure.

    Since that time I have seen a lot of similarities in the experiences reported here and that helped vindicate my experience and greatly helped process it. Reading the comments here also helped as I opened up a lot of my theological boxes, inspected the contents and tossing a lot out and only put a few new things in. I probably keep coming back because I have greatly enjoyed the willingness of TWW commenters to shed the “totalitarian niceness”, to borrow a phrase from Lydia.

    A few months ago I think I crossed a threshold from where I was still defined by my former church even though it was by way of opposition to it. I now feel more defined by what I believe even though I probably don’t espouse as much. I feel more confident in what I believe, also more confident in what I don’t believe, and am more comfortable with what I don’t know. Somewhere in that transition I drifted away from TWW for a while because of the proprietary nature of a few commenters since gone and when I found it enjoyable to read here again I changed my alias.

    Much thanks to Dee and Deb,
    Bill M


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    Thersites wrote:

    I now feel more defined by what I believe even though I probably don’t espouse as much. I feel more confident in what I believe, also more confident in what I don’t believe, and am more comfortable with what I don’t know.

    Sounds like you are in a good place. So glad you are back and have revealed your new name. It was either Driscoll or Mahaney who brought me here, IIRC. I have learned so much from Wartburgers who have had much different experiences and perspectives.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I have learned so much from Wartburgers who have had much different experiences and perspectives.

    Speaking of, one of my guilty pleasures was witnessing your dismantling a couple of the male dominant apologists that have passed through here, simply awesome. Gramp3 married well.


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    @ ishy:

    “To everyone–what brought you to TWW? Why do you keep coming back?”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    1st Church of Dysfunction where i had attended for at least 10 years dissolved and the handful of us left were absorbed into 2nd Church of Dysfunction. As i got used to the new place, all of a sudden i started to notice…. discrimination, i guess.

    women did all the work but were denied a voice, denied a validating title…. their purpose was to be a workhorse, and when not doing that, to be an ornament.

    it was so very wrong — just intolerable. i talked to the pastor about it, and he cheerfully explained it was “headship!” 🙂 and lent me “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” to help me.

    😐

    i read most of it and thought “what the….? this can’t be real!”

    and i started researching, hoping for evidence that i hadn’t walked through into some other dimension, some kind of parallel reality. i somehow found Wade Burleson’s blog and FBC Jax Watchdog, and somewhere in the comments both blogs mentioned “the ladies at the Wartburg Watch”.

    so i came over. i loved it. the intelligent & articulate posts dee and deb wrote, their sense of humor, unvarnished honesty, their knowledge and research. all the fabulous commenters, also so intelligent & articulate, witty, incredibly knowledgeable, and so diverse.

    at one point i think i could exchange comments on any given topic with people from Scotland, England, Germany, Japan, Hong Kong, Australia, Brazil, South Africa, another African nation, the middle east, Antarctica, and of course all over the US including Alaska.

    i have learned so much.

    the variety of people, of perspective & background, the freedom to disagree and challenge, no syrup required. honesty… the honesty.

    i never knew there were people who felt like me.


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    Thersites wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    I have learned so much from Wartburgers who have had much different experiences and perspectives.
    //
    Speaking of, one of my guilty pleasures was witnessing your dismantling a couple of the male dominant apologists that have passed through here, simply awesome. Gramp3 married well.

    I will second that!


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    @ Jeannette Altes:
    As to why I stayed…
    The articles are well researched, pull no punches, and are shining a light into places where it is desparately needed….and the commenters. I have learned a lot from the commenters here that has helped me rebuild my faith. There is such a broad spectrum of commenters from so many faith perspectives and places around the globe. Conntray to what a certain ‘whiner’ would have us think, I have seen a lot of healthy dialogue take place here. And even when things got skewed and out of balance with a couple of commentors, after a time, things righted themselves, like they will in a healthy system.

    This space has become like a family. Deebs, thanks for the space…fellow commenters, thanks for the grace.


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    @ Thersites:
    I looked up your new name-

    “Thersites: Greek soldier who verbally criticizes Agamemnon. He is ugly and somewhat deformed and treated as a comic character. He is the only common soldier to have a speaking role in the Iliad. He is put down both verbally and physically by Odysseus.”

    Love it. Commoners speaking up.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Right you are sir! And I have no excuse for my ignorance… One of my favorite shirts growing up was the in the pattern of the French flag. Lol


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    Thersites wrote:

    He then added without prompting “it wasn’t a moral failure”.

    I hate and despise this kind of thinking, that sex is somehow the only ‘real’ moral failure. Ugh.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    i talked to the pastor about it, and he cheerfully explained it was “headship!” and lent me “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” to help me.

    Oh dear.

    I should say this is the thing that I think will keep me away from ‘evangelicals’ for good at this point. I used to get annoyed trying Baptist churches and seeing 15 pastors (men) and two “directors” (women) listed on programs. Now I go to a church that treats women as full equals and I like it. Not going back.


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    CHIPS wrote:

    For example he said that when a non-believing fireman goes into a burning building to save a child, that action of saving the child is a sin. When a non-believing father loves his child, that pretended love is a sin. Because non-believers literally cannot do any good works and cannot truly love. Every single thing they do are for sinful selfish pretending reasons.

    We could really go round’ and round’ with this one! Personally? I believe it to be a lie from the father of lies. Which segues into ishy’s question of how and why TWW?

    I chanced upon TWW by pure happenstance. That was 9 years ago. The thing that keeps me here at TWW is tolerance, the real deal aside from affirmation, which is not the same thing. TWW is not a tribal outfit which demands lockstep agreement in all things spiritual, but rather, it is a community which finds agreement and common cause with the abused and the marginalized in Evangelical Christianity.


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    @ Lea:

    good grief….. if i could recount the number of times in various and sundry churches where i was greeted with a full frontal assault of images of men, whether in person, in print, or on-screen. leaders, functionaries, spokespeople…

    it’s so uncomfortable. it feels threatening. but at the same time a sad advertisement for short-sightedness and having been ill-advised, siphoning off the wisdom and smarts in their midst.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    it was so very wrong — just intolerable. i talked to the pastor about it, and he cheerfully explained it was “headship!” and lent me “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” to help me.

    From the pen of the prophet Naked Pastor:
    https://www.nakedpastor.com/2016/12/complementarianism-and-biblical-manhood/


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    CHIPS wrote:

    If that pastor happens to read this and come after me, let God be a witness between us. Everything I said is the truth. I didn’t even name this church and the meetings all happened behind closed doors. I did that out of respect.

    This sounds very familiar. When I make a post on my FB about some aspect of spiritual abuse, I never name the old church, but commenters from that church *do* name the church in their comments, and then accuse *me* of maligning that church. Ironic.


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    Lydia wrote:

    He is put down both verbally and physically by Odysseus.”

    Love it. Commoners speaking up.

    Thersites was speaking the truth that was on everyone’s mind so, lest he become a noble figure, even Homer prejudiced him with the “ugly” moniker. Meanwhile the celebrated Odysseus was a thug, nothing new in 3,000 years.


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    @ Thersites:
    Ain’t that the truth!

    (Can you tell I read the cliff notes in college? I just could not get through it)


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    @ dee:
    Dee, I hope and pray that your stepfather is doing much better this morning.


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    Jim Johnson
    Your comment was not approved and in fact was highly inappropriate. Using language like *Lynch* in today’s climate is unseemly and provocative. For you to even claim that anyone on the blog would ever advocate physically harming another person is shocking. I do not know with which crowd you are running but I suggest you get yourself some peaceful and kind friends.

    And never forget who the victim is…


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    @ Max:
    Thank you.