John Piper Has Trouble Dealing with the Disturbing, Yet Sovereign, Creation of Tatas

People make jokes about my bosoms, why don't they look underneath the breasts at the heart? It's obvious I've got big ones and if people want to assume they're not mine, then let them. Dolly Parton link

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[Trigger alert: I will be discussing the private parts of men and women. This may be upsetting to those raised in homes preached that one should never, ever notice such things. It is apparently distressing to John Piper which means it must be Biblical, right?]

The other day, I walked by a full length mirror and stopped. I had been made aware that John Piper appears to have a problem with looking at women, especially if *the girls* are front and center. As I looked at myself, I realized that there is very little I can do to hide my *parts.* They are as much a part of me as the color of m eyes, my hair, and my body shape. God created me this way. Yet Piper appears to have problems with the creation of the tatas.

Even worse, I live in the South and today the heat index was over 100 degrees. On such days, I attempt to dress in a manner that keeps me cool which, unfortunately, leads to the tatas being even more noticeable for those who note such things. I think most normal people are far too busy keeping cool themselves. 

Perhaps it is because I am a nurse, I don't ruminate on body parts because I have seen it all, washed it all,  changed dressings, catheterized both sexes,  etc. I still remember an incident when I was a student nurse. A male patient had been circumcised due to a medical problem which had developed. He hit his emergency button and I came running since I was next door. The poor guy developed a small hemorrhage in the area of his surgery. As I approached to pull up the covers, he said "You're too young to see this. Get a married nurse"  and refused to let me see what was happening. Mind you, the guy was really bleeding but he was more concerned that I would see his *parts.* Thankfully, an older nurse walked in, threw off his covers to see what was going on and told him "We've seen it all. Get over it." She invited me to take a look at the problem. 

I can reassure our readers,who are outside of the medical profession, that looking at a man or woman's private parts is a big yawner for many of us. Now, if those parts had a huge tumor hanging off of them, we might take specific notice and discuss the medical issue together. But no one is standing around and saying, "Did you see the size (or lack of size) of that guy's family jewels?" News flash: Most people look pretty average much to their dismay at times.

John Piper received a miracle from God. He is totally free from wanting to have sex with anyone but his wife.

Sadly, it seems like John Piper has trouble dealing with the fact that women have bosoms even though he is free from sexual feelings towards other women. Last week, this article by Piper, Husband, Lift Up Your Eyes: LETTER TO A WOULD-BE ADULTERERwas discussed with humor and some dismay on Twtter.

He made a series of claims about himself. The moment I read about his *pure as the driven snow* attitude towards sex and  women, I started giggling. There is much that Piper has said about himself that makes me disinclined to believe that he received a miracle from God that prevents him from wanting to have sex with anyone but his wife. He sure thinks a lot about the subject matter.

He has never had an inclination to have sex with anybody but his wife.

 I have enjoyed a life of sexual intimacy with my wife, that is, I think, as intense as any can reasonably hope for. In other words, I don’t think my disinterest in sex with other women is owing to deficient hormones.

… I have never desired sexual relations with another woman. When I fell in love with Noël in the summer of 1966, a focused sexual longing exploded into being. That peculiar desire to be intimate with Noël has never shifted onto another woman.

He believes that God performed a miracle and released him from this desire.

The first thing to say is that I consider this disinterest in sex with other women a pure gift of God’s sovereign grace.

He believes that you need to plead for this miracle for yourself.

Ask God for it.” Don’t just ask him to keep you from giving into temptation. Ask him to take away any desire for any woman other than your wife. Plead for this.

He is revolted at the idea of having sex with another because he fears eternally burning in hell.

It appears that this sin is Piper's unforgiveable sin. Many have fallen in this area. Many have picked themselves up ad repented. So, they are going to eternally burn in hell? Seriously? It must be some Calvinista thing that I don't get.

my speculation is that somewhere along the way in my life, God took the reality of his massive disapproval of lust and adultery, and the threat of indescribable suffering in hell (Matthew 5:29), and created a connection between the physical terror of eternal burning and the moral outrage of cheating on my wife. The form that this connection took was physical revulsion at marital unfaithfulness

Unfortunately, God may not be inclined to give you, lowly Christian, what He has given Piper.

I mean God worked a miracle to make adulterous touching not just morally wrong, but physically revolting. That is one of the greatest works of divine grace I have ever experienced

…It has freed me wonderfully to focus on other things. Whether it is transferrable to you depends on God’s free grace. 

If you pray for this miracle, be aware of orange day lillies.

 I hear he considers himself to be a poet. Maybe this is one of those deep poetry things?

When you have prayed, lift up your eyes. Lift them up to the deep, blue sky. Lift them up to the brilliant whiteness of the billowing clouds. Lift them up to the unfathomable star-filled darkness of the night. Lift them up to misty mountain ranges, and to the rivers that have run for a thousand years, and to the mighty trees that took their time to become strong imperceptibly, and to the orange day-lilies and purple vines and the yellow-souled daisies, and to the ripple-free lakes at dusk, and the great bow of the ocean horizon.

I have trouble believing that Piper is being honest with us or himself. He appears to struggle greatly with sexual temptation. 

i have been following Piper for years and I know he has written a great deal on modesty. In particular, I believe that he regularly focuses on the presence of tatas in his treatises. Does this sound like a man who has no problem with sexual temptation outside of the marriage bed? Maybe he and I have a different definition of freedom.

My eyes are as magnetized toward excessive female skin as most men’s. I am not designed for beach evangelism. I find airports to be problematic enough. I have zero tolerance for nudity in films — or even suggestiveness (which rules out almost all of them). One reason (among many) is that any sexually charged image lodges itself in my mind, with regrettable effects.

It appears that he is obsessed with boobs. He is even concerned about the female chest in two year old little girls as you will see further on in the post.

He does not define what he means by inappropriate.

This, sadly, goes on all the time in churches. We utilize lingo and expect people to understand exactly what we mean. This can cause trouble on many fronts. For example, some Christian believe that church discipline would never occur when a person asks a question like "What is the pastor's salary." The poor person thought discipline would only be reserved for those who cover up child sex abuse, etc. We have written about the many cases of abusive church discipline which we beleives occurs because churches refuse to define, a priori, what they mean but that term.

 Deep things need to happen in a woman’s and a man’s soul before they have any chance of thinking and feeling about these things in a way that honors God. I will just say this to any woman, any man who dresses inappropriately:

The Deeb have followed SGM Survivors for years. Some of those folks discussed that their churches were allegedly really big in the modesty area. For example, women were warned that using seat belt would expose the shape of their tatas. (Gasp!!!) The same goes for cross body bags. It appears that if you are a women, you should figure out a way to use a seat belt that doesn't call attention to your chest. Can you imagine the creepster on the pastoral staff who was running around observing women wearing seat belts?

Let me get this straight. We need to be worried that someone like John Piper might be staring at our chest while we are in the car? How sick is that? The Deebs have long discovered the convenience of cross body bags that keep our hands free while shopping. So, we should give that up because some guy is so weird that he cannot concentrate while we are shopping? He is another creepster.

Avoid sexy dressing.

Piper once again does not define what he means by the term *sexy dressing."

I can testify without any doubt that at every age of my life, my masculine life, my hungry life: Sexy dressing of women is less attractive than modest beauty.

Do you notice that he uses the term *my hungry life* with reference to sexy dressing. Does this sound like a man that has no problems imagining sex with anyone but his wife? What do you think he is thinking about when he focuses of modesty and tatas?

Once again, SGM Survivors had some discussions in which men and women ran around a church *observing* a lack of modesty. One women was told to button the top button on her shirt because that was determined to be modest. 

I have news for all the men running around out there looking at women with their seat belts locked and looking for women who wear cross body bags which reveal the shape of their bosoms, get a life. 

Is he implying that if his eyes are drawn to a woman's chest, then she is guilty of dressing in a sexy manner? So, if he really doesn't have trouble with lust, why is he so concerned about modesty? Why can't he go to the beach? I bet he knows Matthew 5:28 NIV.

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Further proof that it is all about *tatas* for Piper. He even focused on 2 year old girls and their respective chests.

Piper also wrote Is Modesty an Issue in the Church Today? Never forget, necklines are the issue these days. The question is, "For who?" I do agree that it is an issue for Piper. It looks like he is spending time at airports and church spending a bunch of time staring at womens' necklines. Is he confessing to all of us that he has problem by pretending it is us that have the problem? Sneaky, sneaky…. See if you think this is creepy.

Necklines are an issue these days. Everywhere I turn—at the airport and at church—the necklines are plunging! Some fashion designers in the world are communicating to women today that the thing to do is have your neckline split extend too low.

Women should dress in such a way that they draw men's attention towards their eyes, their face, and not towards the other parts of their bodies.

A woman can test herself in this arena by how she dresses her little girl. What kind of bathing suit do you put on your little two-year-old? Is it a cute little bikini? Or do you begin from the very start to teach this little girl that there is an appropriate way to dress? Are you preparing her so that by the time she is seven, eleven, or fifteen her whole mindset is, I dress appropriately, modestly, and not to entice or flaunt? 

So is it just about the tatas? Nope. It's also about knees and belly buttons for Piper. Knees, mind you. 

 But women are selling themselves because Madison Avenue has said, "Show your belly-button, your knees, your cleavage, etc." And women, evidently, are wired to want men to notice their bodies. And that is what must be channeled in an appropriate way. 

Some thoughts on Piper's unusual focus on tatas.

1. We have observed John Piper unusual focus on women and their bodies. Do you remember his unusual rant about the bad sex lives of women who work out and develop muscles? We wrote John Piper: On Election, Sin and the Painful Lives of Muscular Women. Read the following and see if you think this is peculiar. He thinks about women and getting turned on at the gym? This is a guy who has no sexual desire outside of his wife? 

I was totally unconvinced that even Piper could say such a thing. I went directly to the source and there it was, in black and white.  Here is the entire PDF for the book called Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. The following quote was written by Piper although a number of people contributed to the this document

“Consider what is lost when women attempt to assume a more masculine role by appearing physically muscular and aggressive. It is true that there is something sexually stimulating about a muscular, scantily clad young woman pumping iron in a health club.

But no woman should be encouraged by this fact. For it probably means the sexual encounter that such an image would lead to is something very hasty and volatile, and in the long run unsatisfying.

The image of a masculine musculature may beget arousal in a man, but it does not beget several hours of moonlight walking with significant, caring conversation. The more women can arouse men by doing typically masculine things, the less they can count on receiving from men a sensitivity to typically feminine ”

2. Then there was the weird tweet about watching teens making out by the river

Julie Anne Smith wrote Say what? John Piper tweets about teenage couples making out down at the river.  Here are a couple of screen shots. So Piper is watching the teens coming back from the make out session? Talk about strange…


3. I believe that God created women with tatas. He also knew that many live in hot climates. Do you think He meant for women to conceal their bodies in order to prevent men like Piper noticing *the girls?"Did God want them to suffer to help Piper out?  I am dead serious about this question. Does Piper believe he should go into cultures that live around the equator and get them to dress by his criteria? Is his view of modesty actually Biblical?

4. Take a look at the Duggar family. Those poor girls wore long denim skirts and were never allowed to go to the beach and wear swimsuits unless they were alone with their family. The boys were commanded to look at the ground if a girl in a short skirt walked by. Guess what? It didn't prevent Josh Duggar from molesting his sisters, using Ashley Madison, etc. I doubt that figuring out a way to conceal any sort of hint of *the girls* would prevent Piper from looking at them. I think he has a problem and the Calvinista set is not doing themselves any favors by letting this absurdity to continue.

5. What construes sexy dressing? Does it vary from culture to culture and year to year? 

6. If women are born with sizable tatas, should they get breast reduction surgery in order to help out John Piper and the male population?

7. Dolly Parton has done a marvelous job in dealing with her famous bosom. She jokes about it so much that it has become just a part of who she is. Maybe Piper should think about her way of dealing with it….No-he is the elect and she is not. 

7. Which of these would you want to spend an evening with?

   Wikipedia

Dolly doesn't do too bad, does she?  Oh, before I forget :

Added 7/15/17

This is my favorite song by Dolly. She sings it like she knows me!

 


Comments

John Piper Has Trouble Dealing with the Disturbing, Yet Sovereign, Creation of Tatas — 523 Comments

  1. This guy is so strange, and kinda creepy. Why is he noticing these things? Especially in light of that whole thing about only having sexual desires for his wife. Something doesn’t add up here. Methinks his eyes wander around a bit too much for his own good.

    I’m a male and wouldn’t take fashion advice from Piper. I have no idea what he’s thinking by dispensing fashion advice to females. Then again, I have trouble comprehending a lot of his random, rambling thoughts.

    On a semi-related note, my ex-pastor constantly used the phrase “going through the motions” like it was the worst sin you could commit. I never did figure out what exactly he meant by that, or how many hours you had to volunteer/how many church activities you had to participate in so you weren’t considered to be “going through the motions.”

  2. @Dee — LOL! Piper should consider teaching that men and women can admit that, yes, we find people attractive and that’s okay. It’s a part of being human. And, a human body is merely that, a human body. That being said, one can find a person attractive and should still be able to communicate and associate without thinking about sex. It’s called treating a person like a human being, and most people do that well. The problem with Piper is that he has always focused on sex. I often wondered with as much as he has talked about it over the years that he has a problem with sex. Now that he has come out with his recent statement, I am convinced of that more. It always seems to be the ones who say, “I don’t have a problem” that actually do.

  3. Kathi wrote:

    Now that he has come out with his recent statement, I am convinced of that more. It always seems to be the ones who say, “I don’t have a problem” that actually do.

    he sounds a bit like a creepster-Josh Duggar- before we found out the real story.

  4. Isn’t odd that someone claiming to teach about heart change spends so much time essentially making rules even a Pharisee would be proud of? My word.

    Now, I do applaud Piper for seeking to avoid adultery. But as long as he locates the danger outside of himself–namely, all those “plunging necklines” etc–he is in great danger. Talk about blaming circumstances for one’s own choices!

    I guess what I see in the Sermon on the Mount is not Jesus saying the issue is what women are (or more precisely, AREN’T) wearing but rather what men choose to think about said women. Emphasis ought to be placed upon the person–i.e. the man’s choice–and not on what others wear.

  5. This man is creepy. Not normal. Being exposed to his writing regarding modesty and sex convinces more than ever that he has some issues he needs to deal with. I’d like to send his writings on the subjects to a a psychiatrist for analysis.

  6. It was really isolating, triggering, and confusing being a woman around these men.

    Generally, you seem to exist to them as a projection and extension of their own personal thoughts and issues without them ever getting to know you as an equal and individual. You only exist in general categories and impressions and stereotypes, projections. This is all centered around when they can *see* you, like you are a conditioned, time constrained object that revolves around their perceptions. You are not a separate complete person existing outside, before, and after you are around them. Not a full human being with complexity, nuance, history, a story.

    Even if your interaction with them is fleeting and limited, there was always this covert if not overt sense of “I am over you, more powerful, superior, overseeing your identity.” It’s like they function as your “creators” and “deciders”, which is really scary. At best it gives you that unsettling and awkward feeling/vibe.

  7. I distinctly recall hearing a radio interview on a show for men, where the host interviewed a man about some sort of men’s issue. Turns out, this fellow had grown up in Africa, where his parents served as missionaries. It was a rural setting, and “tatas” were a normal part of life, often quite visible. This fellow found the struggles of American evangelical men regarding women’s upper bodies to be a bit curious. I wonder what he would think of Piper.

    The problem is the heart. Not the clothes. Even full-on Victorian dress is no match for an average imagination. And I can’t help but think that the problem of lust is more intense when women are viewed as “less than,” as created as helpers for men only, and incubators for their children. And bringers of tea. Objects.

  8. Piper: “Women should dress in such a way as to draw attention to their eyes, their face…” This is pure Bill Gothard. Gothard even had illustrations of sample hairstyles for women that would supposedly cause men to look at eyes instead of,,,well, whatever else (cough, cough) they might otherwise look at.

    We know that looking only at a woman’s eyes prevents all manner of lust and sinful behavior for men, assault and rape included. (Hush now, and try not to think about rape and assault problems in strict Islamic societies where women wear burkas.)

  9. He married the Norse goddess Noel, who loves him because of the faint resemblance to John Lennon.

  10. Hallucanagenics?

    “When you have prayed, lift up your eyes. Lift them up to the deep, blue sky. Lift them up to the brilliant whiteness of the billowing clouds. Lift them up to the unfathomable star-filled darkness of the night. Lift them up to misty mountain ranges, and to the rivers that have run for a thousand years, and to the mighty trees that took their time to become strong imperceptibly, and to the orange day-lilies and purple vines and the yellow-souled daisies, and to the ripple-free lakes at dusk, and the great bow of the ocean horizon.”

  11. Piper pointedly left out a very alarming plant from his flowery description of what men should look at after they’ve prayed about retraining their lusting eyeballs. It’s all well and good to enjoy the orange day lily, but just don’t go looking at the “naked ladies”, AKA “surprise lilies”. He needs a new list of Items In the Natural World that cause lustful thoughts and should not be viewed by mortal men. Might I also suggest the Grand Tetons?

    (Naked Ladies burst with an initial thick clump of green leaves in the spring, the leaves then die back, and later in the hot summer when you’ve forgotten anything was planted there, surprise! Up shoots a tall stem with a big showy flower, but no leaves.)

  12. scott hendrixson wrote:

    He married the Norse goddess Noel, who loves him because of the faint resemblance to John Lennon.

    I think he looks more like Woody Allen.

  13. GMFS

    Comment 1 of 2

    The title of the post contains a euphemism I’d not come across before. You’ve no idea how confused I was to start with.

    I’m not sure what you’d make of global Indian-based company Tata Steel.

    (Other steel manufacturers are available.)

  14. Comment 2 of 2

    [Comment 1 of 2 is in customs at the time of writing]

    I don’t know anything about Mr Piper’s private life. One thing quoted in the post bothers me a bit, though; it’s this idea of:
     God’s given me a mighty miracle
     You too must want, and should pray for, this same miracle
     But you might not get it

    There’s a lot of that about.

  15. dee wrote:

    Yes- I considered asking the first three females who commented to discuss their tatas. However, I got ahold of myself.

    You could have phrased that better, you know.

  16. Bridget wrote:

    This man is creepy. Not normal. Being exposed to his writing regarding modesty and sex convinces more than ever that he has some issues he needs to deal with. I’d like to send his writings on the subjects to a a psychiatrist for analysis.

    Never mind psychiatrist; I’d like to see what an FBI profiler would say.

  17. Tree wrote:

    Gothard even had illustrations of sample hairstyles for women that would supposedly cause men to look at eyes instead of,,,well, whatever else (cough, cough) they might otherwise look at.

    Sample hairstyles that fit Got Hard’s own sexual pariphiliae, of course.
    “Loooooong… Waaaaaaaaavy… Haaaaaaaair… (heavy breathing sounds)”

  18. Piper’s writings seem to offer a nice selection of excuses for Christian men who don’t care to control themselves, including (1) I haven’t received the special gift of freedom from lust that John Piper has received, (2) I saw some feminine parts in a movie, and I couldn’t help dwelling on it obsessively afterwards, and (3) It’s the woman’s fault for trying to look so attractive.

  19. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Yes- I considered asking the first three females who commented to discuss their tatas. However, I got ahold of myself.

    You could have phrased that better, you know.

    Hahahaha, snort, cough…..

  20. Bridget wrote:

    This man is creepy. Not normal. Being exposed to his writing regarding modesty and sex convinces more than ever that he has some issues he needs to deal with. I’d like to send his writings on the subjects to a a psychiatrist for analysis.

    Go for it. I would be interested in the end report.

  21. He won’t be happy until all women are in burqas. That’ll hide their, “tatas”, and masculine bodies.

    I also do not believe for one moment he’s been delivered from adulterous thoughts.

  22. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Comment 2 of 2

    [Comment 1 of 2 is in customs at the time of writing]
    I don’t know anything about Mr Piper’s private life. One thing quoted in the post bothers me a bit, though; it’s this idea of:
     God’s given me a mighty miracle
     You too must want, and should pray for, this same miracle
     But you might not get it
    There’s a lot of that about.

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Comment 2 of 2

    [Comment 1 of 2 is in customs at the time of writing]

    I don’t know anything about Mr Piper’s private life. One thing quoted in the post bothers me a bit, though; it’s this idea of:
     God’s given me a mighty miracle
     You too must want, and should pray for, this same miracle
     But you might not get it

    There’s a lot of that about.

    Only the super holy, and anointed actually receive this miracle. The rest of the, schmucks, are left forever wanting.

  23. Kathi wrote:

    @Dee — LOL! Piper should consider teaching that men and women can admit that, yes, we find people attractive and that’s okay. It’s a part of being human. And, a human body is merely that, a human body. That being said, one can find a person attractive and should still be able to communicate and associate without thinking about sex. It’s called treating a person like a human being, and most people do that well. The problem with Piper is that he has always focused on sex. I often wondered with as much as he has talked about it over the years that he has a problem with sex. Now that he has come out with his recent statement, I am convinced of that more. It always seems to be the ones who say, “I don’t have a problem” that actually do.

    Amen to that.

  24. Piper’s teachings are dangerous, delusional and disturbing, especially on this. It is an extreme manifestation of the taboo that the church has historically placed upon sex due to the influence of asceticism, combined with his own personal issues.

    Notice also his fixation with sex and the neglect of love. His well-known statement that women should “endure being smacked for a night” and “abused for a season”. In my view, THAT constitutes adultery because it is a breach of the covenant and it is a very serious crime against another human being. So, is this a fair assessment of Piper’s teaching: A woman cannot divorce her husband if she beats him black and blue, but she can if he has sex with someone else? Such a position shows how wrong it all is.

  25. Correction to last statement: “So, is this a fair assessment of Piper’s teaching: A woman cannot divorce her husband if he beats her black and blue, but she can divorce him if he has sex with someone else? Such a position shows how wrong it all is.

  26. “That peculiar desire to be intimate with Noël has never shifted onto another woman.”
    -John Piper

    This begs the question, what about another man? Perhaps a Freudian slip by Pastor Emeritus Piper below? I for one would disagree with Piper’s assertion that “we are prone to fall in love with the same sex.” But I believe Piper is speaking candidly about his own feelings.

    “2) As I reflect on Romans 1 and the way Paul unpacks the problem with homosexuality, it appears to me that Paul is saying something like this: When you exchange the glory of God for idols, the main one that you exchange the glory of God for is yourself. The idol that you have is yourself. Well, what sex is yourself? My sex is male. If you’re a woman watching this, your sex is female. And he seems to draw out the fact that in exchanging God for our most cherished idol, which is usually self, we are prone to fall in love with the same sex.”
    -John Piper
    “Why is Homosexuality Wrong?
    http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/why-is-homosexuality-wrong

  27. ION: Cricket

    In the Women’s World Cup, England are 55-1 after 10; could be worse given that the Windies won the toss and fielded. It would be worse, though, had the Windies not bowled an astonishing 17 wides in those ten overs.

    Aaaaand… Taylor’s just gone for a duck. So, mixed fortunes for the hosts in Bristol.

    IHTIH

  28. There’s tennis on later, of course, but my tennis updates keep landing in customs for some reason. I’m trying to tone them down.

  29. Tree wrote:

    It’s all well and good to enjoy the orange day lily, but just don’t go looking at the “naked ladies”, AKA “surprise lilies”.

    AWWBA, there’s a well-known Canadian rock-band with a very similar name. They are, of course, responsible for the theme-music for The Big Bang Theory.

    When I used to work at Scottish Amicable, there were some rather strict settings on the external internet access. Put the wrong thing in Google, and you got a big red message saying that IT Services had been informed of your misdemeanour (though in fact, IT Services – being actual humans – weren’t overly fussed unless you were trying to open dodgy email attachments).

    Well, needless to say, when one lassie tried to buy tickets for her favourite Canadian band when they visited Scotland, The System didn’t like it.

  30. John Piper in 2008:
    “Just like John Piper is a new creature in Christ, even though he still struggles with the sins of impatience, lust, and pride, Christians who struggle with homosexual desires are not homosexuals. In Christ they are new creatures who struggle with the temptations of homosexuality. And I just want to come along side them and say, “Get that as your paradigm, and let’s struggle together in chastity and in purity until we’re dead.””

    http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/how-can-we-help-christians-who-are-struggling-with-homosexual-desires

    John Piper in 2017:
    “When I fell in love with Noël in the summer of 1966, a focused sexual longing exploded into being. That peculiar desire to be intimate with Noël has never shifted onto another woman.”

  31. Bridget wrote:

    I’d like to send his writings on the subjects to a a psychiatrist for analysis.

    I don’t think that a psychiatrist is necessary. Piper can be pretty well summed up by that famous mental health professional, Barney Fife:

    “He’s a nut!”

  32. dee wrote:

    Yes- I considered asking the first three females who commented to discuss their tatas.

    Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I am JP’s worst nightmare as I got all the booby prizes & suffer from a ridiculously overstuffed bodice. Dolly & I have 2 things in common, sadly for real. I’m saving up for a reduction of anyone would like to donate for the sake of (spurious) holiness. I’m hoping to walk upright as an old woman, but without surgery can’t make any promises.
    He is another obsessive, who tries to hide it behind all sorts of christian nonsense.

  33. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Yes- I considered asking the first three females who commented to discuss their tatas. However, I got ahold of myself.
    You could have phrased that better, you know.

    Nurse humour! Marvellous. Any of you who are of delicate nature would also do well to avoid my comment above.
    But seriously, being buxom & being Christian is tough, non-Christian men are generally much better behaved though I got a lot of comments as a younger woman. It’s an absolute curse & I remember staring down a young l’Abri student in a church service once who kept turning round to stare at my chest. Maybe he thought they were implants? Anyway, just disturbing.

  34. Tree wrote:

    Piper: “Women should dress in such a way as to draw attention to their eyes, their face…” This is pure Bill Gothard. Gothard even had illustrations of sample hairstyles for women that would supposedly cause men to look at eyes instead of,,,well, whatever else (cough, cough) they might otherwise look at.
    We know that looking only at a woman’s eyes prevents all manner of lust and sinful behavior for men, assault and rape included. (Hush now, and try not to think about rape and assault problems in strict Islamic societies where women wear burkas.)

    Bill Got hard for sure and many other fundy groups.
    Always the females fault for men having, * impure * thoughts. Wonder why Jesus never addressed modesty in females, or masculine females, if it’s such problem?

  35. What is the difference between Piper’s teachings and fundamentalist Islam, at least on the subject of ‘modesty’? Perhaps Piper should take the plunge and say that all godly women should wear burkas and be done with it already.

  36. Beakerj wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    Yes- I considered asking the first three females who commented to discuss their tatas. However, I got ahold of myself.
    You could have phrased that better, you know.
    Nurse humour! Marvellous. Any of you who are of delicate nature would also do well to avoid my comment above.
    But seriously, being buxom & being Christian is tough, non-Christian men are generally much better behaved though I got a lot of comments as a younger woman. It’s an absolute curse & I remember staring down a young l’Abri student in a church service once who kept turning round to stare at my chest. Maybe he thought they were implants? Anyway, just disturbing.

    I was in a choir years ago. A few of the women were well endowed, attractive women. One time a man complained we should wear choir robes so the congregation wouldn’t be, “distracted”, by the buxom babes. We less then buxom protested that we were being punished because choir robes were very hot to wear over clothing. Thank God we prevailed.
    I thoroughly believe some fungus men want women in burqas.

  37. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ Jeannette Altes:

    It’s reassuring to know that someone else’s sense of humour (or humor, if you prefer) is as bad as mine!

    I’m assuming you think she should have handled things more delicateky… 😉

  38. Piper’s paen to his wife reminds me of the poem Annabel Lee by Edgar Allan Poe, especially the first two stanzas:

    It was many and many a year ago,
    In a kingdom by the sea,
    That a maiden there lived whom you may know
    By the name of Annabel Lee;
    And this maiden she lived with no other thought
    Than to love and be loved by me.

    I was a child and she was a child,
    In this kingdom by the sea,
    But we loved with a love that was more than love—
    I and my Annabel Lee—
    With a love that the wingèd seraphs of Heaven
    Coveted her and me.

    He seems to vote himself as a Christian bard, and he talks of his intimate life like he’s an adult film start – a Neo Cal Shakespeare crossed with an elect* Ron Jeremy.

    Would it kill this man to simply admit that he’s normal?

    (*Please note the “l” in that word. Wink wink nudge nudge say no more.)

  39. I know that when many of you saw my name pop up in the comment stream, you thought ole’ Max will surely impart some words of wisdom on the matter at hand. Well, sorry to disappoint you – this TWW post leaves me speechless (nearly) … except to remind you yet again that Piper is a nut-case, so go buy his books.

    Driscoll made a good living being a potty-mouth preacher and writing porno marriage books. Piper comes across as more sophisticated, but he sure gets creepy sometimes. Reformed whippersnappers depend on Piper Points to help them get through their struggles with flesh. While Dee was cranking out this post last evening, Piper was tweeting “Seven Promises to Pray Against Porn.” The man sure seems obsessed with such topics. In his post, he serves up some counsel to YRR flesh-babies:

    “The Internet is a cosmic battlefield … When the temptations circle, we have to stop, crack our knuckles, dig in our heels, and believe the Bible … You are not doomed to digital dungeons. Don’t go online with palms up and wrists ready for sin’s chains … We are saints, co-heirs of the universe. It wouldn’t be right for a billionaire’s kids to eat from Golden Corral’s dumpster. It isn’t right for us to dwell in a digital landfill.” http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/seven-promises-to-pray-against-porn

    Whew! He scared the bejesus out of me! Guess I better get off this digital dungeon, crack my knuckles, dig in my heels, and go water the garden. After I get the yard work done, my wife I will probably go to Golden Corral (no, wait a minute, we’ll go somewhere else – I still have that dumpster image in my mind – thanks a lot Piper!)

  40. @ GSD [Getting Stuff Done]:
    Friend of mine was a short-term missionary in an area where tatas ran amok, but the body was covered from above the navel to the knee,because that’s where babies came from. He said that when he returned to the States,he found the sight of uncovered thigh magnetic. It was a real eye-opener into the way our cultural context determines what is considered erotic.

  41. Very infrequent commenter here. Admittedly, I first saw this on the Christian Post website (the paragon of hard-core, hard-hitting journalism #NOT), and my first thought was, and still is, “I find that VERY hard to believe”.

    What is worse is that I find it very difficult to trust anyone that says that what has worked for them in the area of abstaining from sexual sin should be normative for ALL people.

  42. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    John Piper in 2017:
    “When I fell in love with Noël in the summer of 1966, a focused sexual longing exploded into being. That peculiar desire to be intimate with Noël has never shifted onto another woman.”

    It is more common for people to ‘explode’ many years younger than that. Something just is not right about this sentence. IMO-it sounds like a lie. Who else is saying that they just suddenly and with no prior warning ‘exploded’ after successfully completing adolescence without exploding and then stayed exploded but apparently obsessed with the whole world of other women who are a near occasion of sin for him because they are female. Hogwash. He sounds like an old lecherous grandpa who is losing a new neurons.

  43. Beakerj wrote:

    But seriously, being buxom & being Christian is tough, non-Christian men are generally much better behaved though I got a lot of comments as a younger woman. It’s an absolute curse & I remember staring down a young l’Abri student in a church service once who kept turning round to stare at my chest. Maybe he thought they were implants?

    Remember Josh Duggar and his compulsive “hand sex” while Courting(TM)?

    Or strict Muslims freaking out when they see a glimpse of ankle or eyes under the burqa?

    If your world is nothing but Thou Shalt Nots, any hint of Forbidden Fruit will trigger an X-treme sexual paraphilia reaction.

  44. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    This begs the question, what about another man? Perhaps a Freudian slip by Pastor Emeritus Piper below? I for one would disagree with Piper’s assertion that “we are prone to fall in love with the same sex.” But I believe Piper is speaking candidly about his own feelings.

    There can be only one response to that:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457N1m4oUZw

  45. We all know Piper is a whack job and has been all along. It just became more obvious with social media. But what is most chilling about Piper are the thousands and thousands of young men and women who hung on his every word for the last 25 years as Holy Writ. They are the ones I worry about. They are spread across the globe, too. Some from my own family who joined the Piper worship brigade at Wheaton 17 or so years ago. It’s all we heard. Piper this or that.

    I bet you guys did not know that 4th of July celebrations are sinful, too. Idolatry, to be exact. (Like a retirement video filmed in Geneva by a giant Calvin statue?)

    But back then I knew little about him except that based on their cultish adoration of him and his bizarre teaching they arrogantly shared, I was not inclined to like him much. After all, none of us knew the true Gospel. My brother and my mom were convinced they had joined a bizarre faux Christian cult. Who else can make one disdain their “ignorant” family so quick? I suggested to my brother he remind them he paid their way through an expensive college. They never had to work or had loans to pay back. They also had cars.

    So I started researching him.

    But I did ask a few years later about this Pipers wife. (Upon graduation they moved to Minn. to study with Piper) the answer: Oh, she doesn’t talk much. She paints a lot and wears berets. That was it. Noel. An afterthought.

    So there is a clue. This was not a ministry “team” to youth. It was all John Piper- all the time. And it worked with underdeveloped frontal lobes because he had a nerdy sincerity with truck loads of flowery verbosity that over powered the real message he was communicating underneath. And that message was: I get it right. No one else does who doesn’t agree with me. A nerdy, arm waving, voice mesmerizing, charismatic tiny little Elmer Gantry of sorts. A tiny man with big flowery words and hypnotic gestures.

    Pipers background is Bob Jones fundamentalism to which he added his own religion of 7 pt Calvinism.

    It is fascinating to see where it all went. I don’t know if he was always this publicly creepy about sex to his congregants or if retirement and a twitter account just made it more obvious. But he does have the very basics of Islamic thinking down pat: It’s always the women who make us lust.

    To this he adds his Puritanesque prayers: Oh God! Don’t let me think Pink! Deliver me from thinking Pink! Perform a miracle on my Pink thinking heart! Don’t think Pink. Don’t think Pink. Don’t think Pink. Ad nauseum.

    See how it works? You are thinking Pink!!!

    And this was and is taught to Neo Cal youth groups all over America. Who do nothing but think Pink. That is Pipers legacy: creepiness.

    Now he is just a creepy old man.

  46. Mae wrote:

    Only the super holy, and anointed actually receive this miracle. The rest of the, schmucks, are left forever wanting.

    Yet another way for the Super Holy to Count Coup.
    “ME SHEEP! YOU GOATS! HAW! HAW! HAW!”

  47. Lydia wrote:

    I bet you guys did not know that 4th of July celebrations are sinful, too. Idolatry, to be exact

    And Memorial Day! The young reformers in my area refuse to display an American flag in their churches and recognize veterans in their congregations. They don’t want to handle unholy things in their places of worship, while they preach unholy things falling short of worship. They don’t want to distract from the glory of God, while they fail to bring His glory into their midst.

  48. Lydia wrote:

    … Pipers wife … she doesn’t talk much. She paints a lot and wears berets …

    And delivers tea to him when he rings a bell from his third floor study.

    Lydia wrote:

    this was and is taught to Neo Cal youth groups all over America. Who do nothing but think Pink.

    Flesh babies who will never overcome the wiles of the devil listening to Piper.

  49. Jolene-Dolly Parton

    Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene
    I’m begging of you please don’t take my man
    Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene
    Please don’t take him just because you can
    Your beauty is beyond compare
    With flaming locks of auburn hair
    With ivory skin and eyes of emerald green
    Your smile is like a breath of spring
    Your voice is soft like summer rain
    And I cannot compete with you
    Jolene
    He talks about you in his sleep
    And there’s nothing I can do to keep
    From crying when he calls your name
    Jolene
    And I can easily understand
    How you could easily take my man
    But you don’t know what he means to me
    Jolene
    Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene
    I’m begging of you please don’t take my man
    Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene
    Please don’t take him just because you can
    You could have your choice of men
    But I could never love again
    He’s the only one for me
    Jolene
    I had to have this talk with you
    My happiness depends on you
    And whatever you decide to do
    Jolene
    Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene
    I’m begging of you please don’t take my man
    Jolene, Jolene, Jolene, Jolene
    Please don’t take him even though you can
    Jolene, Jolene

  50. okrapod wrote:

    with no prior warning ‘exploded’

    Whew! My mind is about to explode right now! Piper is the weird uncle your mama warned you about … so let’s go to his conferences and buy his books … cool!

    These young reformers would not be listening to the man if they were in their right spiritual minds. They are under Pied Piper’s trance.

    (My 3-year old grandson introduced me to his Vacation Bible School teacher last night as his cool grandpa. I’m cool because I take him fishing & hiking, not the weird kind of cool that clothes Piper.)

  51. Mae wrote:

    I also do not believe for one moment he’s been delivered from adulterous thoughts.

    I think he talks about this so much that I wonder if he is concealing some issue.

  52. I work at a large athletic company and our current screen saver when you log out of the computer is an image of the newest athletic bra coming out – worn by a woman. So every logged out computer screen shows covered boobies! Oh, the horror! Piper wouldn’t last 2 seconds. It’s a female body, get over it! I can’t wait to try this new sports bra. It looks fantastic!

  53. The self-flagellation and the odd sort of poetically admiring one’s sins where it almost sounds worshipful and in awe of it..(*especially lust!, it’s the epitome of war/battle for them, proof that they are real men)…It’s all pretty common with the men who follow Piper. For Piper it’s a lot of the Puritan, particularly Jonathan Edwards influence.

    Their theology or social ethics or what have you ends up being very sin-centric and not Christ and what is good centric. You define sin or what’s wrong or bad by focusing and getting to know what is good and what goodness and Christ looks like, using that as the measure. “Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think about such things.”

    Not by defining good by merely what’s not sin, putting sin as the focus and center of your vision and world. Because in that way “sin” often will just look like your own personal manifestations or neuroses or ever changing issues or thoughts. It won’t be real discernment or distinguishment of reality or engaging real life.

    Then you think your “sin” is everyone else’s sin and everyone needs what you need and to do what you do and so on. It’s all very self-centered and exhausting.

  54. Kari wrote:

    That’s my favorite Dolly song, too! <3

    Who doesn’t love, Dolly? She’s a one of a kind. I don’t trust people who don’t like her.

  55. dee wrote:

    Note to all ladies n the South
    It is quite hot today. Are your tatas undercover?

    LOL! Dee, thanks for keeping all the ladies in check.

  56. *I mistyped my name as emily hiney at first, and briefly though about keeping it for the sake of this thread 😀

  57. Tree wrote:

    Might I also suggest the Grand Tetons?
    (Naked Ladies burst with an initial thick clump of green leaves in the spring, the leaves then die back, and later in the hot summer when you’ve forgotten anything was planted there, surprise! Up shoots a tall stem with a big showy flower, but no leaves.)

    I just choked on my coffee.

  58. Kathi wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Note to all ladies n the South
    It is quite hot today. Are your tatas undercover?
    LOL! Dee, thanks for keeping all the ladies in check.

    My tatas are covered with a shirt, but not with a bra today! 🙂

  59. The image of Piper lurking in an airport terminal with magnetic eyes has me really creeped out this morning.

  60. Divorce Minister wrote:

    Now, I do applaud Piper for seeking to avoid adultery. But as long as he locates the danger outside of himself–namely, all those “plunging necklines” etc–he is in great danger. Talk about blaming circumstances for one’s own choices!

    This is an excellent observation.

  61. Tina wrote:

    My tatas are covered with a shirt, but not with a bra today!

    Oh no. Red alert! You are rying to be comfortable on this hot day. God and John Piper do not want you to comfortable. You need to ruin the tata holders with gobs of sweat!

  62. Max wrote:

    Oh emily honey, you need to go wash yo’ mouth out with soap!

    But if she typed it rather than saying it, doesn’t it mean she needs to wash her hands with soap?

  63. emily honey wrote:

    Then you think your “sin” is everyone else’s sin and everyone needs what you need and to do what you do and so on. It’s all very self-centered and exhausting.

    Surviving New England Puritan journals from 3-400 years ago all read the same: obsessive navel-gazing sin-sniffing.

  64. Hey all

    I just expanded something I said in the post to give it context. Look above the final Dolly video.

  65. Max and Ken F,

    I don’t have a husband so I don’t know how to decide which is the best penance. I’ll just do both and cover all bases.

  66. Paul D. wrote:

    d (3) It’s the woman’s fault for trying to look so attractive.

    Let me add something for your to ponder. Piper’s concerns with tatas is actually a concern that some women are attractive. I bet he only notices tatas on good looking women which makes his problem even worse.

  67. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    obsessive navel-gazing sin-sniffing.

    Yep and that is exactly what Piper does. And then his paparazzi dudebros apply his thinking, including the really weird stuff. I bet, in dudebro churches across America, the Boz are preaching on modesty and tatas this week.

  68. @ emily honey:

    Yes, yes and yes! You have nailed it.

    And worse, it’s to the point of bragging about it. Who is the biggest worm?

    I have said for years: We need to believe them. After all, the biggest sinner, CJ, turned out to be harboring pedophiles. Team Mohler and Dever covered for him, too.

    I have been around Piper and sadly his height brings him almost eye level to many ta tas. That could be the source of his real problem.

  69. @ GSD [Getting Stuff Done]:
    True.
    – women are created by God to nurse their children, and yes, in some cultures (we were missionaries in Africa, too) it’s normal and everyday.
    – women are created by God as equal to and collaborators with men, team players. In a healthy work environment, men and women work in teams and focus on the work, not on themselves and their body parts. It’s teamwork and people are people.

    On a focused team, narcissism and lust eventually stand out. The creepy, yuck factor appears. Which is what is happening with the subject of this post. How can this man’s work be called leadership? Misguided “leadership”, maybe? It reads like curious childishness.

    Medical situations, in education (kids who don’t dress right), in sports (swim club or gymnastics), in counseling, there’s work to be done, adults need to act like adults and have the people skills to interact with others appropriately.

    The subjugation of women with fantasies of a woman as an object of lust – Jesus died to save us from this. Unfortunately, some do not avail themselves of their salvation so they would be able to, by God’s grace, function as God intended. Their choice, their loss.

    Apparently some preserve their ruling authoritarian “class” system rather than abandon their pride and learn how to relate to people as people. Again, Jesus died for this freedom – free from lust in the heart, and free from dominance, pride and ego in relationships.

  70. Max wrote:

    The image of Piper lurking in an airport terminal with magnetic eyes has me really creeped out this morning.

    No kidding!

  71. ZechZav wrote:

    “So, is this a fair assessment of Piper’s teaching: A woman cannot divorce her husband if he beats her black and blue, but she can divorce him if he has sex with someone else? Such a position shows how wrong it all is.

    This happened in a church:
    Assistant pastor is physically abusing his wife and 3 kids. The wife’s parents get her and the kids out of the home and then call the lead pastor for help/
    The lead pastor refuses to help until the wife and kids are returned to the home.
    The family refused to do so. My understanding is that a divorce occurred.

    Behind the scenes: A divorce is consider the worst crime on the face of the planet and the church has written rules that any pastor who divorces must step down.

    Do you see where this is leading. The abusive pastor could stay on staff so long as his wife and kids are returned to him. Actual physical abuse is no problem since th pastor can still stay on staff. divorce means he can’t. Can you imagine?

    I am happy to say that the wife stood her grounds and divorce him. he was forced to step down and is no longer in the pastorate although it appears that he is remarried. I wonder if the current wife knows about his violent tendencies?

  72. dee wrote:

    A divorce is consider the worst crime on the face of the planet and the church has written rules that any pastor who divorces must step down.

    Divorce is not the worst. Dateline or Forensics or The New Detectives inform us. Some murder.

    With divorce, everybody lives. (And moves on.)

  73. emily honey wrote:

    Then you think your “sin” is everyone else’s sin and everyone needs what you need and to do what you do and so on. It’s all very self-centered and exhausting.

    I was young and now am old. Over my lifetime, I’ve noticed a strange pattern in pulpit preaching across America. Preachers who preach the hardest ‘against’ certain sins are sometimes exposed being ‘in’ those same transgressions. You can’t help someone out if you are in. Remember Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Dudebro Patrick, and other numerous subjects of TWW posts.

  74. Seriously, airports? Is it the part where everyone has to take their belts off? What about looking at all the cool planes out the window?

  75. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    This begs the question, what about another man? Perhaps a Freudian slip by Pastor Emeritus Piper below? I for one would disagree with Piper’s assertion that “we are prone to fall in love with the same sex.” But I believe Piper is speaking candidly about his own feelings.

    Desiring God is a ministry of a bunch of similar-looking young guys.

    A workplace with an old guy leader + all fresh-faced young guys, or an old guy leader + young ladies, or an old lady leader + all young guys, or old lady leader + all young ladies, = doesn’t look like a team. It looks like an obsession.

  76. @ dee:
    Well, now that it’s on the table, I’ve thought that for years about certain New Calvinist celebrities. I’ve never heard more men slobbering with flattery over each other in all my life! Put those silly women in their place so we can spend more time with each other!

  77. JYJames wrote:

    Desiring God is a ministry of a bunch of similar-looking young guys.

    Don’t forget all the faux beards they sport in an attempt to look intelligent.

  78. Beakerj wrote:

    Dolly & I have 2 things in common, sadly for real. I’m saving up for a reduction of anyone would like to donate for the sake of (spurious) holiness. I’m hoping to walk upright as an old woman, but without surgery can’t make any promises.

    You are a tool of Satan!

    However, I am sorry that you have to deal with the difficulties. There are serious medical problems associated with it .Is there. anyway you can get it covered due to the medical issues that can develop? I know things are different in the UK so my question I probably naive.

    I had a friend who did get breast reduction surgery because she was developing medical problems. I don’t know how I could help you but if you have any ideas let me know. I stopped and prayed for you.

  79. Dan from Georgia wrote:

    JYJames wrote:

    Desiring God is a ministry of a bunch of similar-looking young guys.

    Don’t forget all the faux beards they sport in an attempt to look intelligent.

    I should know btw. I USED to attend Bethlehem Baptist Church. It was goofy how two or three young guys followed Piper in to the sanctuary at the start of the service!

  80. Max wrote:

    I know that when many of you saw my name pop up in the comment stream, you thought ole’ Max will surely impart some words of wisdom on the matter at hand

    Wow! How did you know my thoughts?

    Max wrote:

    this TWW post leaves me speechless (nearly)

    That was our intent.

  81. @ dee:

    Dee,

    That is awful but sadly does not surprise me. It goes back to the same problem we have discussed before – idolising marriage as an institution. Ethics on sex, relationships and divorce have a very straight-forward basis in Romans 13:

    “8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

    If Piper and his fans followed that simple advice they would not be so hung about “lusting” and “committing adultery”. In Romans 13 adultery is listed here as a crime against another human being and not against an institution, a “creational mandate” or a “biblical gender role”. Piper has completely the wrong foundation to even start talking about adultery and divorce!

  82. @ Max:

    Lol! Great comment.

    (Do you get the feeling Piper was sneaking peaks at the National Geographic Magazine at the drug store as a kid and then carrying great guilt for his heinous sin?)

  83. Stan wrote:

    Seriously, airports? Is it the part where everyone has to take their belts off?

    So, women are running around exposing the girls in a way that Piper feels uncomfortable? I asked me husband about this. His response about what he thinks about?

    1. I hope they don’t need to do a body search on me.
    2. Where’s the restroom?
    3. Anything decent to eat around here?
    4. Dee’s texting me again.
    5. I hope I don’t get seated next to a talker or someone who has a tuna sandwich.
    6.I wish I was going to the beach.

  84. Mae wrote:

    Wonder why Jesus never addressed modesty in females, or masculine females, if it’s such problem?

    Jesus had the pure heart and social skills to relate to and work with everybody, respectfully and lovingly. He died so we can do the same. Thanks, JC.

    (The Christian “leaders” who won’t grow up and learn, their loss. Arrested development.)

  85. dee wrote:

    tata holders

    Somehow this thread reminds of a Three Stooges episode where Curly notices a bra drying on a clothesline and says “hey, fellas, look at this! A double-barreled slingshot!”

  86. A recent Piper tweet:

    “The withdrawn guy in the corner may be as ego-consumed as the guy attracting everyone’s eyes.”

    ?!

  87. It has been rumored that John Peter Piper is aesexual and propagates by division. It’s just a rumor, but the voices in my head have been right most of the time.

  88. ZechZav wrote:

    Correction to last statement: “So, is this a fair assessment of Piper’s teaching: A woman cannot divorce her husband if he beats her black and blue, but she can divorce him if he has sex with someone else? Such a position shows how wrong it all is.

    Actually, Piper is against divorce in the case of adultery as well. (http://www.divorceminister.com/i-disagree-with-john-piper-on-adulterydivorce/). Like Dee explains, divorce seems to be the greater sin (than abuse and adultery) in the practical theology of Piper. It is sad.

  89. @ roebuck:

    Or as my lady used to say as she put on her bra while dressing for work: “Time to harness up the team”. (I used to work with draft horses.)

  90. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Comment 2 of 2

    [Comment 1 of 2 is in customs at the time of writing]

    I don’t know anything about Mr Piper’s private life. One thing quoted in the post bothers me a bit, though; it’s this idea of:
     God’s given me a mighty miracle
     You too must want, and should pray for, this same miracle
     But you might not get it

    There’s a lot of that about.

    That’s exactly what struck me!!!! “Pray for it! Plead for it! But it might not be transferable to you because God’s Free Grace is for His special pets and I’m one and maybe you’re not.”

  91. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

     God’s given me a mighty miracle
     You too must want, and should pray for, this same miracle
     But you might not get it

    Pride, elitism.
    Not the Kingdom of God.
    “A high look, a proud heart and the lamp of the evil is sin.” Prov. 21:4

  92. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    I refuse to look at the link you provided – it sounds like a “digital dungeon.”

    Did Piper provide a Scripture reference for the quote you provided?

    Whew! This comment thread is getting stranger by the minute! I’m starting to feel slimy.

  93. dee wrote:

    Wow! You nailed it. Old Woody had a few peculiar proclivities as well.

    Yep. Peculiar. Exactly what I was thinking.
    And Southern Ky chiming in here: I’ve been out in the garden picking beans this morning, so I’m a little sweaty …… Sitting here barefooted, wearing a tank top. ……… Barefooted! Oh no! I hope Piper doesn’t have afoot fetish, too!

  94. Does Piper ever talk about Jesus? He alludes to proof texts in the Gospels to buttress his case, but does he ever actually talk about Jesus?

  95. @ Divorce Minister:

    Thanks for the information. This is because Piper obviously values traditions, institutions and abstract concepts and doesn’t care at all about human beings.

  96. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Comment 2 of 2

    [Comment 1 of 2 is in customs at the time of writing]

    I don’t know anything about Mr Piper’s private life. One thing quoted in the post bothers me a bit, though; it’s this idea of:
     God’s given me a mighty miracle
     You too must want, and should pray for, this same miracle
     But you might not get it

    There’s a lot of that about.

    That’s exactly what struck me!!!! “Pray for it! Plead for it! But it might not be transferable to you because God’s Free Grace is for His special pets and I’m one and maybe you’re not.”

    I know very few men (i.e., most likely none) that, just by praying a simple prayer, were “delivered” from sexual temptation.

  97. Max wrote:

    A recent Piper tweet:
    “The withdrawn guy in the corner may be as ego-consumed as the guy attracting everyone’s eyes.”
    ?!

    Projection! Wonder who’s the withdrawn guy in the corner?

  98. IMO lust is not merely finding someone physically attractive. It is something much darker and more obsessive. A way to combat lust is to realize that the one lusted after is actually a whole person, equal to oneself in worth, and not only a sexual object. Piper et al are unable to see attractive women in this (normal, healthy) way, so it’s no wonder that many struggle with lust and porn.

  99. Stan wrote:

    Seriously, airports? Is it the part where everyone has to take their belts off? What about looking at all the cool planes out the window?

    I went to Nashville last night ….. arrived downtown about 5 pm …,. sweltering heat, high humidity……. Piper should have seen all of the “scantily clad” ladies riding the party barges down second street! One of the party barges is an extended-bed pick-up truck with a swimming pool in the bed.

  100. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Does Piper ever talk about Jesus?

    Not much. But that is a characteristic of New Calvinism. They talk a lot about “God”, barely mention Jesus, and seldom utter a word about the Holy Spirit. They toss around a lot of gospel-centered this and gospel-centered that and refer to being Christ-followers … but they never really preach the Gospel or raise Jesus’ name above all names.

  101. roebuck wrote:

    Somehow this thread reminds of a Three Stooges episode where Curly notices a bra drying on a clothesline and says “hey, fellas, look at this! A double-barreled slingshot!”

    In one of the Beverly Hillbillies episodes, someone gave Ellie Mae a bra. She got all exited because thought it was a double barreled slingshot.

  102. Max wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Does Piper ever talk about Jesus?

    Not much. But that is a characteristic of New Calvinism. They talk a lot about “God”, barely mention Jesus, and seldom utter a word about the Holy Spirit. They toss around a lot of gospel-centered this and gospel-centered that and refer to being Christ-followers … but they never really preach the Gospel or raise Jesus’ name above all names.

    “____________ (insert whatever you may want) to the Glory of God” is also bantered around a lot amongst Piper’s followers.

  103. Max wrote:

    Did Piper provide a Scripture reference for the quote you provided?

    He provided some verses, but like usual, took them completely out of context. Sorry for posting that, but I think it is an important part of this discussion.

  104. Lydia wrote:

    @ roebuck:
    Lol! Did you know a man invented the brassiere? A Frenchman.

    Had to be invented by a man… Believe it or not, the German word for brassiere is ‘Bustenhalter’.

  105. Max wrote:

    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Does Piper ever talk about Jesus?

    Not much. But that is a characteristic of New Calvinism. They talk a lot about “God”, barely mention Jesus, and seldom utter a word about the Holy Spirit. They toss around a lot of gospel-centered this and gospel-centered that and refer to being Christ-followers … but they never really preach the Gospel or raise Jesus’ name above all names.

    A friend of mine used to refer to Calvinism as Sado-Paulianity.

  106. I love the humor in this thread, but as a parent of adolescents, I find this stuff from Piper seriously toxic. It’s hard enough to raise a kid with a positive body image and responsible attitudes about sex without all of this garbage. However, I find Piper quoted and revered in so many churches!

  107. roebuck wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    @ roebuck:
    Lol! Did you know a man invented the brassiere? A Frenchman.
    Had to be invented by a man… Believe it or not, the German word for brassiere is ‘Bustenhalter’.

    Perfect!

  108. scott hendrixson wrote:

    It has been rumored that John Peter Piper is aesexual and propagates by division. It’s just a rumor, but the voices in my head have been rig

    If that is true, surely Monsanto makes some sort of pesticide……..

  109. @ Lydia:
    Yeah, and an English inventor introduced the neck-tie to the world – the English also came up with manicured lawns. Before I retired, I was thrilled to see a “business casual” dress code takeover the workplace and the ties stay home. Over the years, I wanted to hang that Brit with his neck ornament. I still have evil thoughts about the English when I mow my lawn. God forgive me.

  110. ZechZav wrote:

    @ Divorce Minister:
    Thanks for the information. This is because Piper obviously values traditions, institutions and abstract concepts and doesn’t care at all about human beings.

    No problem. I am still hoping he retracts or seriously modifies his position on these matters. It certainly has caused carnage in the Christian community.

  111. Lydia wrote:

    I don’t know if he was always this publicly creepy about sex to his congregants or if retirement and a twitter account just made it more obvious.

    Attention addiction. Like prominent folks we won’t mention.

    For example, when Mel Gibson came out with The Passion in 2004, Piper immediately published his own little (wasn’t much) book called, “The Passion of Jesus Christ”. His obvious intention was to ride the wave of PR himself. Didn’t sell and went out of print.

    If twitter sex by an old man is newsy, some old egos just go there. Can’t help themselves. As Piper flaunts being against the grain, culture-wise, he is in the thick of it, trending.

  112. There is too much material here on which to comment.

    What’s the deal with airports?

    I suspect something is going on here. Didn’t he basically admit to marital problems a couple of years ago?

    Even if you had no lust issues, you should never parade this around. It perpetually discourages other who may struggle,

    Jesus said it’s not what’s on the outside that defiles a person, but what’s on the inside.

    Often the cultures that are most restrictive on dress customs, have huge lust issues.

    On a personal note, I have my weekly open water swim at the lake in the morning. Will cover 2 miles or so, and hope to follow with a 2 hour run.

    All of us, men and women, will be hardly clothed.

    When people criticize that, it says more about them than what we are doing by swimming together, men and women, with hardly anything on.

  113. Caroline wrote:

    I love the humor in this thread, but as a parent of adolescents, I find this stuff from Piper seriously toxic. It’s hard enough to raise a kid with a positive body image and responsible attitudes about sex without all of this garbage. However, I find Piper quoted and revered in so many churches!

    The root of this is Piper’s hedonism. For him, it’s all about pleasure and satisfaction. Here is one of his articles on how to fight lust: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/anthem-strategies-for-fighting-lust. Note that his solution heavily stresses replacing one kind of pleasure with another kind of pleasure. Jesus did not talk this way.

  114. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Caroline wrote:

    The root of this is Piper’s hedonism. For him, it’s all about pleasure and satisfaction. Here is one of his articles on how to fight lust: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/anthem-strategies-for-fighting-lust. Note that his solution heavily stresses replacing one kind of pleasure with another kind of pleasure. Jesus did not talk this way.

    I have another comment waiting to be approved suggesting that one way to fight lust would be for these guys to realize that attractive women are equal in value to themselves rather than objects for their amusement or temptation. I don’t see that on his list.

  115. You can tell the health of a pastor and church based on how they prioritize sin and whether they have compassion.

    Regarding sin:

    If it’s something sexual, it goes to the top as particularly loathsome.

    But pride, arrogance, and unwillingness to love others as self, these are not worth discussion.

    Regarding compassion:
    Unlike Jesus who was constantly bringing the out-group in (Gentiles, prostitutes, swindlers), certain pastors emphasize doctrine that promotes themselves and their friends as the in-group. And if you’re not in their in-group, you don’t get any compassion.

  116. @ Caroline:

    Yep. We got out of youth group over it. It’s damaging even as subtle. The years it’s takes to undo it, isn’t worth it. By the time they reach 12 or so, parents have less influence than other “adults” with this stuff. Especially cool youth pastors. Luckily, I had been poking fun about Piper (and others) to mine long before that. (The best way to spot a counterfeit is to know the real thing…well. And that real thing is Jesus Christ. His words. His actions and even what He doesn’t address. Sometimes how Jesus doesn’t respond is instructive)

    I wanted them to know that it is ok to question any teaching. politely, of course. I am not raising serfs but future independent citizens who are allowed to question things in a professional way.

    (At my daughters Christian school in 7th grade, I was called into the principle office because in bible class they were discussing lying and my kid had the nerve to mention Rehab! That was considered disrespectful. I thought it would make for a lively discussion point and told the principle so. So much for education!)

    My proudest day was when THEY asked to stop attending youth stuff. They said, mom you wouldn’t believe it. (Hee hee)

  117. @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    JYJames wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    I don’t know if he was always this publicly creepy about sex to his congregants or if retirement and a twitter account just made it more obvious.
    Attention addiction.

    Again, attention addiction and following trends, in this case, the works of Mark Driscoll. (with regard to Ken F.’s link)

    With the narcissistic attention addiction, curiosity about sex, and pied piper follow-me-boys antics, a professional could pinpoint this behavior on a timeline, when the arrested development began. Understandable at a certain age, but for an old man – childish, inappropriate, unprofessional, and definitely misguided theology.

  118. dee wrote:

    Note to all ladies n the South
    It is quite hot today. Are your tatas undercover?

    I’ve noticed that I am less likely to be sexually harassed wearing a summery shorts outfit than dressed like this: http://thebestfashionblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2015-2016-Office-Wear-For-Ladies-20-600×899.jpg

    I personally think the basis for the whole modesty movement is bunk. I think it’s about whether or not these men think they are entitled to ownership of the women around them. And the men that teach this kind of stuff seem to have an awful high rate of domestic violence and child abuse. Forcing all the women and children around them to cover up hasn’t seemed to stop them from abusing those women and children.

  119. Janey wrote:

    Jesus who was constantly bringing the out-group in (Gentiles, prostitutes, swindlers), certain pastors emphasize doctrine that promotes themselves and their friends as the in-group. And if you’re not in their in-group, you don’t get any compassion.

    Yes!!

  120. Dan from Georgia wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:
    Does Piper ever talk about Jesus?
    Not much. But that is a characteristic of New Calvinism. They talk a lot about “God”, barely mention Jesus, and seldom utter a word about the Holy Spirit. They toss around a lot of gospel-centered this and gospel-centered that and refer to being Christ-followers … but they never really preach the Gospel or raise Jesus’ name above all names.
    “____________ (insert whatever you may want) to the Glory of God” is also bantered around a lot amongst Piper’s followers.

    All the neo Cals repeatedly say this. Like , what does that mean, glory of what?

  121. Caroline wrote:

    I find Piper quoted and revered in so many churches!

    I’ve seen this celebrity worship and it makes me vomit. One of my former Facebook friends from a Gospel Coalition church even posted a video of Piper’s preaching poses put to music and he was mentioned in some of the words. He was being worshiped!

  122. @ dee:

    Got it! Thanks!!! I don’t know her and didn’t know that about DN… Which definitely makes me wonder about what happened in that situation too.

    I’ll reply to y’all via e-mail a little later.

  123. Caroline wrote:

    one way to fight lust would be for these guys to realize that attractive women are equal in value to themselves rather than objects for their amusement or temptation.

    Yes, the authority factor definitely promotes lust (women as objects, toys, possessions, underlings).

    That’s why in the work place, a superior is not supposed to be dating those under their authority. The power factor doesn’t work in personal relationships. Same with in counseling, and adults + minors, etc. Anyone in one’s charge, so to speak, should not be pursuing an intimate relationship. It doesn’t work. It’s weird how in religion, theology places authority in an intimate relationship. Even the world recognizes that power and intimacy don’t mix.

  124. Originally read much of this mistakenly as “tapas”. I suspect my theology might not be entirely orthodox…

    (Gosh having piper’s miracle blessing would be nice but that’s not the world the overwhelming majority of us lives in)

  125. The problem here is:

    1). When a person’s talent is not up to the hype about their talent, but they’re expected to come up with trenchant points.

    2). When a person runs out of insight early in their career but is hooked on the buzz they get from all the attention and keep trying to produce new brilliance, such as the “orange-day lilies” prose, which reads like it was written by an earnest 14 year old in AP creative writing class.

    3). When a person is proud and therefore stops listening and learning, they sound more an more foolish as the years go by. When I saw Piper speak in person a couple times 20 years ago, two things leaped out: first, he seemed proud in an over-the-top, vulgar way, but did his best to fake humble it, and second, he seemed mind-numbingly dull. That Piper should pass for a Christian intellectual with great insight says a lot about the lack of intellect and insight among his small group of loyal fans. I never have understood the Piper attraction and never will.

  126. Why do they (not just Piper) rant and rail about women being modest, but never say a word about men??? Women have eyes to see with, too!

  127. Janey wrote:

    You can tell the health of a pastor and church based on how they prioritize sin and whether they have compassion.

    Regarding sin:

    If it’s something sexual, it goes to the top as particularly loathsome.

    But pride, arrogance, and unwillingness to love others as self, these are not worth discussion.

    Regarding compassion:
    Unlike Jesus who was constantly bringing the out-group in (Gentiles, prostitutes, swindlers), certain pastors emphasize doctrine that promotes themselves and their friends as the in-group. And if you’re not in their in-group, you don’t get any compassion.

    Janey, these are wise words.

  128. Max wrote:

    I’ve never heard more men slobbering with flattery over each other in all my life! Put those silly women in their place so we can spend more time with each other!

    “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.”
    Winston S. Churchill

    “… but at the length truth will out.”
    From Shakespeare’s “The Merchant of Venice”

    I know of at least one celebrity conference speaker who is hoping I “hurry off as if nothing ever happened.” To which I reply “at length truth will out.”

  129. Thing is, and I’ve learned this teaching on college campuses for the last decade and a half, you don’t have to stare at the tatas, there is no magnetic force other than your crummy, objectifying attitude, and you don’t have to let those images burn indelibly into your mind. If you do, you have no grounds to blame the woman, you are entirely to blame. Alcoholics drive by bars every day and don’t step inside.

  130. Law Prof wrote:

    That Piper should pass for a Christian intellectual with great insight says a lot about the lack of intellect and insight among his small group of loyal fans. I never have understood the Piper attraction and never will.

    I have been saying this for years. The first time I saw a Piper video I first thought “THIS is what passes for a top-ranked Christian intellectual?”. Second thought: What a pathetic little man. Third thought: the guy’s a wack-job. I’ve never seen or read anything to change my opinion.

  131. Law Prof wrote:

    Thing is, and I’ve learned this teaching on college campuses for the last decade and a half, you don’t have to stare at the tatas, there is no magnetic force other than your crummy, objectifying attitude, and you don’t have to let those images burn indelibly into your mind. If you do, you have no grounds to blame the woman, you are entirely to blame. Alcoholics drive by bars every day and don’t step inside.

    Old Jewish saying: You can’t help it if a bird flies over your head. But you can stop it from building a nest in your hair.

  132. dee wrote:

    I decided not to go there because I was already pushing the envelope here although I had fun with it.
    Do you remember this?

    I generally play the “fool who rushes in where angels fear to tread!”

    And no, I did not remember that story. Hard for a guy my age to remember all the carnage in Evangelical Christianity.

  133. Lydia wrote:

    @ Caroline:
    Yep. We got out of youth group over it. It’s damaging even as subtle. The years it’s takes to undo it, isn’t worth it. By the time they reach 12 or so, parents have less influence than other “adults” with this stuff. Especially cool youth pastors. Luckily, I had been poking fun about Piper (and others) to mine long before that. (The best way to spot a counterfeit is to know the real thing…well. And that real thing is Jesus Christ. His words. His actions and even what He doesn’t address. Sometimes how Jesus doesn’t respond is instructive)
    I wanted them to know that it is ok to question any teaching. politely, of course.

    It’s also OK to question some teachings impolitely. Some teachings should not be questioned in a polite way–otherwise, Jesus sure was on the wrong track with His treatment of the Pharisees–some teachers don’t rate much more than being called blind guides, sons of hell, whitewashed tombs.

  134. Mae wrote:

    Only the super holy, and anointed actually receive this miracle. The rest of the, schmucks, are left forever wanting.

    You forgot doomed to hell also. Because that’s what Scripture clearly teaches.

  135. @ Law Prof:

    That’s all we heard around here about Mohler back in the 90’s. He’s brilliant! A top notch scholar! Reads 20 books a week! Time magazine even featured him as one of the 100 of up and comers under 40, Blah, blah, blah. As my step dad said back then, they protest way too much. What struck me is that none of it embarrassed Mohler.

  136. Thank you TWW! That was hilarious!

    After reading through hundreds of pages of John Piper writings, the one thing that stands out is how Piper sounds obsessed with trying to control women. He wants to control which careers they pick—Heaven forbid they might want to advance in their careers! He just keeps making up more and more rules for what he wants women to do. How could that not be LUST for CONTROL?

    If anyone doesn’t believe me and wants to double check the sources, here’s the book where he tries to stop women from moving up the corporate ladder.

    https://www.amazon.com/review/R2VX1SIIUS1IIM/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00265VGGO

  137. Lydia wrote:

    But what is most chilling about Piper are the thousands and thousands of young men and women who hung on his every word for the last 25 years as Holy Writ. They are the ones I worry about. They are spread across the globe, too.

    Take heart Lyds and realize that the majority of them will outgrow Piper.

  138. Law Prof wrote:

    Thing is, and I’ve learned this teaching on college campuses for the last decade and a half, you don’t have to stare at the tatas, there is no magnetic force other than your crummy, objectifying attitude, and you don’t have to let those images burn indelibly into your mind. If you do, you have no grounds to blame the woman, you are entirely to blame. Alcoholics drive by bars every day and don’t step inside.

    Yes! The implication that he must lust after the flesh if it is exposed (even by strangers in the airport??) is so creepy.

  139. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    all the carnage in Evangelical Christianity.

    All the Carnage vs. All the New Creation in Christ.

    Never dull. TWW has a lot of material to work with. Thank God for TWW.

  140. Lydia wrote:

    At my daughters Christian school in 7th grade, I was called into the principle office because in bible class they were discussing lying and my kid had the nerve to mention Rehab! That was considered disrespectful. I thought it would make for a lively discussion point and told the principle so. So much for education!

    Your mistake was in assuming that education, teaching students to learn how to use their own insight and discernment, was the point. Indoctrination into a man-centered system in which the leader must not be challenged was evidently the point. This is the same as what’s stressed again and again in Christian churches, primary and secondary schools, colleges.

  141. Muff Potter wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    But what is most chilling about Piper are the thousands and thousands of young men and women who hung on his every word for the last 25 years as Holy Writ. They are the ones I worry about. They are spread across the globe, too.
    Take heart Lyds and realize that the majority of them will outgrow Piper.

    My son in law, who used to make me absolutely insane with talk of pilgrimages to Minneapolis, doesn’t make a peep about Piper anymore. My daughter has been slamming him over the head with “emperor has no clothes” talk for two years, taking his notions apart one by one.

  142. ishy wrote:

    I personally think the basis for the whole modesty movement is bunk. I think it’s about whether or not these men think they are entitled to ownership of the women around them.

    I can see modesty as virtue if that means acting in such a way as to not draw attention to myself or to assume self-importance. As in “We live in a modest home.” Or “She responded to the compliment with modesty.” But I don’t see that mindset as having anything to do with covering your collarbones. I would to teach my kids (male and female) to dress in a way that is comfortable and appropriate to the task at hand, not in a way that shows that some old guy at the airport may be upset by seeing their knees.

  143. @ Law Prof:

    Frankly, there is little of that anywhere. Now they are in AP Magnet public education and the English Assignments, as one example, are all leftist indoctrination. critical thinking skills has to start early and at home. They still get off on rabbit trails but not for as long, hopefully.

  144. @ Lydia:
    Yes, we disengaged from church altogether for a while. (I’m in the Deep South in an area where the SBC reigns.) It’s been hard to find a good alternative. Recently we’ve been worshipping at a liturgical church but haven’t jumped into youth group yet. I can remember some weirdness with my own youth group experiences (like one leader who was just a little too interested with hearing details about our struggles with sexual morality). It is such a delicate time in life and faith. I would love for them to have the support system but it’s so hard to make sure it’s healthy.

  145. @ dee:
    @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):

    “Could this be the day that someone at National accidentally puts one of their Infiniti SUVs in the Emerald Aisle?” Or is that just a different kind of coveting?

    Down in Dallas yuppie land where I live, there are jokes about how you need to dress to impress for the grocery store. But it seems like most of the women going through DAL and DFW are dressed for excessive AC in the planes. Now in comparison to hot and vain Dallas, could there be that many salacious ladies in the MINNEAPOLIS airport?

  146. Here I am still trying to discern the meaning of his “sexy stones” tweet.

    There is something wrong with this man.

  147. I haven’t read every comment yet, but I was wondering how Piper might react if he happened to come upon a woman breast-feeding her baby. Isn’t that one of God’s methods of nurturing or would Piper see it differently?

  148. @ Caroline:
    They found that grouping according to current interests works the best. Whether it’s science, music, etc. At least it’s more productive and edifying. One of my daughters high school friends started a coding camp for young girls. It’s been a big hit. I am amazed at some of these kids. It’s better than the fake youth mission trips. Or the much exalted “Bible and Beach” the Megas do each summer.

  149. Caroline wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    I personally think the basis for the whole modesty movement is bunk. I think it’s about whether or not these men think they are entitled to ownership of the women around them.
    //
    I can see modesty as virtue if that means acting in such a way as to not draw attention to myself or to assume self-importance. As in “We live in a modest home.” Or “She responded to the compliment with modesty.” But I don’t see that mindset as having anything to do with covering your collarbones.

    I was trying to specify the modesty movement (also called purity culture) as opposed to modesty as a moral ideal or virtue. There is a movement in churches that seeks to blame women for things like rape based on what they wear. Not only do I believe their premise is false, but I believe that what women wear has very little to do with sexual harassment. I think it’s all about entitlement over other human beings.

  150. emily honey wrote:

    I don’t have a husband so I don’t know how to decide which is the best penance.

    Neither do I. Frankly, I’ve no idea what to do.

  151. @ ishy:
    I agree completely. Sorry if I didn’t say that well. I just think it’s interesting that what they call “modesty” has little to do with actually being modest and is often promoted by people who are not at all modest.

    I agree completely re: purity culture. It is among the toxic church baggage that I would prefer to keep away from my family, especially my young daughter.

  152. roebuck wrote:

    Law Prof wrote:
    That Piper should pass for a Christian intellectual with great insight says a lot about the lack of intellect and insight among his small group of loyal fans. I never have understood the Piper attraction and never will.
    I have been saying this for years. The first time I saw a Piper video I first thought “THIS is what passes for a top-ranked Christian intellectual?”. Second thought: What a pathetic little man. Third thought: the guy’s a wack-job. I’ve never seen or read anything to change my opinion.

    First time I heard him on the radio , I couldn’t believe people thought this man to be a gifted teacher.
    He sounded like a nut to me too. All sorts of alliteration, no plain talk. Could only take about 20 mins. Worth of listening. That was 20+ years ago.

  153. Muff Potter wrote:

    Mae wrote:
    Only the super holy, and anointed actually receive this miracle. The rest of the, schmucks, are left forever wanting.
    You forgot doomed to hell also. Because that’s what Scripture clearly teaches.

    Yes, and too darn bad …..To the glory of God! 🙁

  154. Max wrote:

    emily honey wrote:
    Then you think your “sin” is everyone else’s sin and everyone needs what you need and to do what you do and so on. It’s all very self-centered and exhausting.
    I was young and now am old. Over my lifetime, I’ve noticed a strange pattern in pulpit preaching across America. Preachers who preach the hardest ‘against’ certain sins are sometimes exposed being ‘in’ those same transgressions. You can’t help someone out if you are in. Remember Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, Dudebro Patrick, and other numerous subjects of TWW posts.

    Yup, agree. Can’t stop from taking about sex in one form or another! Then it’s on to what one wears ( women of course ) lots of guilt hyped on about achieving holiness…..not much consistent teaching of the whole Bible.

  155. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.” (Winston S. Churchill)

    Yep, I’ve observed plenty of that in my long life. Another Churchill quote on truth fits the proliferation of the New Calvinist movement:

    “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.” (Winston Churchill)

    But, Praise God, Truth will prevail!

  156. Caroline wrote:

    IMO lust is not merely finding someone physically attractive. It is something much darker and more obsessive. A way to combat lust is to realize that the one lusted after is actually a whole person, equal to oneself in worth, and not only a sexual object. Piper et al are unable to see attractive women in this (normal, healthy) way, so it’s no wonder that many struggle with lust and porn.

    Exactly!

  157. Max wrote:

    Todd Wilhelm wrote:
    “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.” (Winston S. Churchill)
    Yep, I’ve observed plenty of that in my long life. Another Churchill quote on truth fits the proliferation of the New Calvinist movement:
    “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.” (Winston Churchill)
    But, Praise God, Truth will prevail!

    I’ve heard this quote also attributed to Mark Twain. Who knows, maybe both of them said it! 🙂

  158. Max wrote:

    The young reformers in my area refuse to display an American flag in their churches and recognize veterans in their congregations.

    It ain’t just young reformers Max. Young liberals and progressives (at another blog) descended on me like hornets to a hiker in the Wisconsin woods for daring to advocate a live-and-let-live attitude toward Old Glory in the church sanctuary.

  159. Just been a thinkin’ ……… God made Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden, and they were naked and unashamed. Wouldn’t that make the fall all God’s fault??? I mean, He put that naked lady in the Garden with Adam ……. Adam was prolly too busy ogling at that naked lady and droolin’ to give one whit what that serpent was up to!

  160. dee wrote:

    Is there. anyway you can get it covered due to the medical issues that can develop? I know things are different in the UK so my question I probably naive.

    Thanks Dee. You know that once you can fit your head in your bra then it’s all gone to heck 🙂
    My case wouldn’t be picked up by the NHS because although my shoulders are a block of wood & I get fizzy hands & bits of my arms now & then, I don’t have serious enough effects, like damaged discs etc like some do. I’d also like to be able to choose my surgeon.It is a colossal pain in the everything & I either look like a frump or an ageing hooker dependent on my few clothes choices.scott hendrixson wrote:

    It has been rumored that John Peter Piper is aesexual and propagates by division.

    I laughed so hard & then I realised that means there would be actual Piper clones out there…shudders. Can you imagine being in a room full of different aged clones all fluttering hands & talking about being winsome?

  161. Law Prof wrote:

    I never have understood the Piper attraction and never will.

    Some folks just crave flowery word salads. Piper serves up heaping ones. :/

  162. Piper’s rant exposes one of my major problems with Calvinist theology. It’s two-faced.

    On one hand Piper preaches about the salvation of “the elect” and how nobody can do anything one way or the other to earn salvation. God chose us eons ago and that’s that.

    Yet, on the other hand, he appears to believe that having a stray lustful thought about a woman he’s not married to is enough to send him to Hell for all eternity.

    So which is it?

    Also, it goes without saying that if *that* is what sends people to Hell, then we’re all pretty much damned.

  163. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Why do they (not just Piper) rant and rail about women being modest, but never say a word about men??? Women have eyes to see with, too!

    Someone else may have already answered this.

    It’s because, in their theology, women aren’t supposed to enjoy sex. They are merely supposed to endure it. (“Lie back and think of England.”)

  164. This is one of my most favorite posts (and comment threads lol) of all time.

    As someone who was blessed with an ample bosom, I am sick and tired of being made to feel ashamed of something that I was created with. I know women who are much larger than I am who were very self conscious about it. Knock it off, Piper. I don’t dress for you.

    Let’s just be thankful if the women in our lives aren’t stricken with tata cancer. And pray for the ones that are. Having healthy tatas is way more important than whether or not you can notice them.

  165. Law Prof wrote:

    My son in law, who used to make me absolutely insane with talk of pilgrimages to Minneapolis, doesn’t make a peep about Piper anymore. My daughter has been slamming him over the head with “emperor has no clothes” talk for two years, taking his notions apart one by one.

    That has been my take on Piper for the last decade. I could never understand what our friends and acquaintances saw in him. I still don’t.

    The emperor indeed has no clothes.

  166. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Just been a thinkin’ ……… God made Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden, and they were naked and unashamed. Wouldn’t that make the fall all God’s fault??? I mean, He put that naked lady in the Garden with Adam ……. Adam was prolly too busy ogling at that naked lady and droolin’ to give one whit what that serpent was up to!

    Well, Adam certainly tried to spin it that way. “Well, this woman that *You* gave me…”

  167. I was curious about Piper’s “Letter to a Would-Be Adulterer” so I read it. I don’t know why men commit adultery. I don’t know why women do, either, but he was not writing to women, so I will leave that alone. He seemed to think that men commit adultery only because a woman (besides his wife) is attractive and available and dressed revealingly. Maybe her knees are showing. Or her neckline is lower than is appropriate, not that he defined what inappropriate necklines are. All his reasons and solutions have to do with what I’d call basic lust, if I’ve remembered accurately. I didn’t read for the purpose of writing an analytical response, so perhaps I’m not recalling every point.

    Anyway. It seems to me that lust plays a role at some point in the commission of adultery, but is it the only factor? Not having personal experience with it, I guess I can’t say definitively, but I would think there would be a lot of steps to get a man to the point of actually committing adultery. Many accounts (confessions) that I have read by repentant adulterers begin along the lines of, “We were just work/neighborhood/church/club friends and I never imagined that our chit-chat would eventually lead to an affair.” I don’t think I’ve seen any start with, “She wears a scoop neck t-shirt and Bermuda shorts to work in her yard and when she sits on her porch to cool off, her knees show. With a display of flesh like that, right there among the orange day lilies, it was no wonder I lusted after her.”

    What struck me about this advice to young husbands is that the advice had nothing to do with a husband’s relationship with his wife, only about praying for the lust for other women to be removed. Seems like some encouragement to work on his existing marriage relationship would be in order. Communicating regularly with his wife, having a date night now and then, showing thoughtfulness and kindness to her, etc, etc. Maybe even suggesting that if he is having serious lust issues, to examine himself more deeply. I don’t know how “normal” lust is for men, the kind of lust that would prompt adultery. Apparently Piper knows a different kind of man than the ones I know. Apparently, most of the men I know are pretty decent men, the kind who don’t ogle women in airports or make reference to all the female flesh that is present at the beach and the water park, or walk around with their eyes either up on the clouds or cast down on their Chacos, so they won’t think a lustful thought upon seeing a woman’s body.

    Maybe I should read the Piper article again. Surely he encouraged the lustful young men wavering on the brink of adultery to spend quality time with their own wives. But I’m not a marriage counselor like he is (?) so what would I know about it

  168. Beth D wrote:

    I don’t think my 38D’s would fit into Piper’s church…

    ROFL 😀

    This makes me think of the signs in front of carnival coasters, the ones with red arrows 46 inches from the ground that read “you must be this tall to ride”.

    Somewhere, someone has something to measure tatas appropriately sized for church.

    You KNOW they do.

  169. Muff Potter wrote:

    Old Glory in the church sanctuary

    The young Calvinists down the road from me won’t even display a Christian flag, feeling that it takes away from God’s glory!

  170. Hmm. Nope. Nothing about focusing on your wife and your marriage relationship. Nothing about asking God to help you want to improve your marriage, be a better husband to your wife, love your wife more deeply. Just on asking God to remove the lust for other women. And love and glorify God more, of course.

    Well, there you go, then. Human relationships not a factor.

  171. (Part 1)
    Secular American culture suggests to girls that their only value is in their physical appearance, and girls are taught (via magazines etc) that men and boys will like them only if they are sexy.

    So, (message received = ) if they want dates and boyfriends, they better look sexy.

    The church – yes gender complementarian churches – send these same messages to girls and women!

    When I was a kid, teen, and 20 something, I read a lot of Christian literature written from a gender comp perspective. In the last few years, I’ve seen more gender comp material on the internet.

    Out of the stuff I saw as a kid and now, while on the one hand, comps tell women their “value is in Jesus” and to “dress modestly” they completely contradict themselves on this point by later telling girls and women that God wired men to be visual, so it is their godly duty to remain pretty, skinny, sexy, etc.

    In all my years (and despite the fact I am a visually oriented woman), I’ve never once seen or heard a comp preacher or write advise his male readers to stay trim and in shape to look hot for women.

    A few months ago on this blog, I linked to several blog posts by a famous comp woman (Kassian, I think?) who told girls/women in her post it is their duty to remain sexy, hot, pretty for their men.

    Comps speak out of both sides of their mouths – they tell women / girls to look sexy but then scold them for possibly “enticing men” by being too sexy looking, so wear potato sacks or turtle-necks.

  172. Take a look at the Duggar family. Those poor girls wore long denim skirts and were never allowed to go to the beach and wear swimsuits unless they were alone with their family. The boys were commanded to look at the ground if a girl in a short skirt walked by. Guess what? It didn’t prevent Josh Duggar from molesting his sisters, using Ashley Madison, etc. I doubt that figuring out a way to conceal any sort of hint of *the girls* would prevent Piper from looking at them.

    Makes me think of this pic: http://imgur.com/a/Y3alo

    You can swathe a woman in yards of fabric, and it won’t make a difference if someone’s eyes or mind wants to “go there.”

  173. (Part 1 is above) –
    (Part 2)
    Do you know how I cope with all this complementarian bleating about dressing modestly and not turning men on?

    I totally tuned out complementarian teaching years ago. I dress however I want to and don’t worry if a man would find my dress “too sexy.”

    My time and life is too short to expend it obsessing on if my neck line shows too much.

    Also, I wonder, what good does it do for the Pipers to lecture Christian girls and women to dress modestly when there are plenty of Non-Christian women out and about in public who don’t give a rip about this modesty stuff?

    Soon or later if one is a Christian man, one will come across women (Non-Christian women) in public who are wearing thong bikini, min-skirts, or what have you.

    Ergo, the onus is on men to control their impulses and thought lives.

    In some Middle Eastern nations, a woman showing a bare ankle is considered hotty-totty.

    I read about a woman journalist who said she was in the Mid East, laying by the pool at a hotel she was staying at, in a one piece suit most Westerners would consider modest, but she caught a Mid-East man pleasuring himself off in a corner (he was so turned on by seeing her arms and legs, he got turned on).

    This stuff is so arbitary – what one man or one culture thinks is bimbo-ish, another one would not. There is no way a girl or woman can dress to please all these men who have different standards of decency.

    Anyway…. Most Non-Christian women don’t even know who Piper is, nor would they give a rat about his modesty views even if they read about them.

    Piper needs to learn to navigate the world as it is and take responsibility for his actions, instead of expecting all women to dress to whatever his arbitrary modesty standards are.

  174. Piper said,

    A woman can test herself in this arena by how she dresses her little girl. What kind of bathing suit do you put on your little two-year-old?

    I’ve never had a kid, Piper.

    And what of mothers who only have sons, not daughters?

    But the overall gross point is that he’s sexualizing two year old girls. The problem is with Piper and guys like him, not with 2 year old girls.

    Which isn’t to say there is no sexualization of girls going on in secular culture. I’ve seen articles in the last ten years of examples of companies making clothing for five year old girls that looks like it’s meant for 45 year old hookers.

    Piper again:

    But women are selling themselves because Madison Avenue has said, “Show your belly-button, your knees, your cleavage, etc.” And women, evidently, are wired to want men to notice their bodies. And that is what must be channeled in an appropriate way.

    I just spoke on this before, but complementarians are also telling girls and women to show off their bodies, not just Madison Ave and Hollywood.

    Complemenetarians keep telling girls and women (and I saw this constantly in their books, articles, etc, as I was growing up, and even now, I see it in their blog posts, sermons etc), if you are a woman or teen girl who want dates or marriage, God created men to be “visual,” so wear flattering clothing, wear make-up, stay skinny, have nice hair, etc.

    I really wish complementarians would OWN UP to the fact they are sexualizing the female gender just as much as Non-Christian culture, and they also shame the female gender if or when they follow this advice.

  175. Just now, the voices shared a rumor with me that Piper was being mentored (yrr term for abuse to a sycophant follower) in the ways of love by Shaft until Shaft discovered the poems about orange lillies and such.

  176. @ Daisy:

    Good points Daisy

    Many a fundy preacher harps on women, “letting themselves go.” As if appearance is the only glue that keeps a marriage together.

    If you want to read a truly sexualized book on male/female relationships, read ,’ The Total Woman’. It was a 70’s version of, sex and looks will get you all you want, in a Christian marriage. Truly popular rubbish.

  177. Piper said:

    Sexy dressing of women is less attractive than modest beauty.

    Isn’t this just reframing the same problem?

    If you are a Christian guy who finds “modestly dressed” Christian women to be attractive, hot, and sexy, then “modesty” (women wearing potato sacks or turtle necks) becomes your idealized “sexy,” and you will still be lusting after “modest” women.

    Did Piper not think this stuff through before writing?

  178. Just wanted to alear folks I have 3 or 4 posts above that haven’t been published yet, so you may want to scroll up to see those (or not, if you find me or my posts really annoying)

    Regarding:

    John Piper received a miracle from God. He is totally free from wanting to have sex with anyone but his wife.

    [some Piper quotes]
    … I don’t think my disinterest in sex with other women is owing to deficient hormones

    The first thing to say is that I consider this disinterest in sex with other women a pure gift of God’s sovereign grace.

    … Don’t just ask him to keep you from giving into temptation. Ask him to take away any desire for any woman …

    I know I beat this drum often (sorry to anyone who finds this annoying), but

    – As an adult celibate, I feel the need to say a thing or two about this because I’ve seen a lot of false assumptions about adult celibates from the Christian community.

    A lot of Christians would (or may) assume I’ve maintained virginity as long as I have because I lack a Libido, or because God “gifted” me with celibacy (ie., God removed any libido I may have).

    My response to all that is: Heck no.

    Yes, I have a Libido, yes I’d like to be having sex (preferably in marriage to a spouse), and no, God did not remove my desire to have sex, or grant me special abilities to withstand getting hot and bothered.

    Being abstinent comes down to self-control and self-discipline, and anyone can do it. I don’t have a special gift, or power, or ability, nor do I lack a libido.

    I’m just tossing this out there because I am afraid that Piper’s comments will be construed by some Christians to be applicable to everyone, or to celibate adults – it’s not.

  179. Also, I read some of his other poems. I think they are a combination of Armenian folk music and the writings on Dr. Bronner’s Castille Soap.

  180. Anyhow. As to the main point of the post:

    It is kind of funny and frustrating how guys like Piper make his personal struggles EVERYONE’S problem.

    So all women every where must obsess over their necklines, and (he assumes) all men every where must struggle with sexual or adulterous thoughts.

    This can be fun. Let me play Piper’s game:

    I, Daisy, love chocolate and have a hard time resisting chocolate, so everyone must have this same struggle.

    All of you must banish chocolate from your homes. Avert your gaze when walking past the Candy aisle at your grocery store.

    I hate cauliflower. Because I hate cauliflower, all of you must hate it, too and have a problem with it. Stay away from it.

    I mean God worked a miracle to make cauliflower not just morally wrong, but physically revolting. That is one of the greatest works of divine grace I have ever experienced.

    …It has freed me wonderfully to focus on other things, like pizza or ice cream.

  181. emily honey wrote:

    Even if your interaction with them is fleeting and limited, there was always this covert if not overt sense of “I am over you, more powerful, superior, overseeing your identity.” It’s like they function as your “creators” and “deciders”, which is really scary. At best it gives you that unsettling and awkward feeling/vibe.

    This is so true. Thank you for articulating this!

  182. Another thought just crossed my mind.

    Could you imagine being married to this Piper guy (or don’t, if it would make you feel ill), and you find out the only reason he isn’t cheating on you is because God supposedly wiped away all his desires for other women?

    I wouldn’t find that too loving or flattering, personally.

    If I were married to a guy who was faithful to me, I think I would find it more loving if his motivation for remaining faithful was he loves me and wouldn’t want to hurt me by cheating on me.

    There’s just, IMO, something a tad strange and disquieting (disturbing, maybe) about a guy saying the only reason he’s not committing adultery is because God removed all his desire for other women.

  183. AnonInNC wrote:

    I’m a male and wouldn’t take fashion advice from Piper. I have no idea what he’s thinking by dispensing fashion advice to females. Then again, I have trouble comprehending a lot of his random, rambling thoughts.

    I am tired of the complementarian double standards that underlie so many of these teachings of theirs.

    Piper, Driscoll, all these other guys, assume that only men want and like sex, and only men are “visual” and notice if other people are attractive, and they also assume women only care about emotional stuff. What hogwash.

    If these complementarian guys are going to lecture women to dress modestly, turn about is fair play.

    I want to see blog posts by them where they admonish the men to stop wearing tight pants that show off their bulges (don’t mean to be crass), or stop wearing tank tops that show off their nice, muscular arms.

  184. Daisy wrote:

    Another thought just crossed my mind.
    Could you imagine being married to this Piper guy (or don’t, if it would make you feel ill), and you find out the only reason he isn’t cheating on you is because God supposedly wiped away all his desires for other women?
    I wouldn’t find that too loving or flattering, personally.
    If I were married to a guy who was faithful to me, I think I would find it more loving if his motivation for remaining faithful was he loves me and wouldn’t want to hurt me by cheating on me.
    There’s just, IMO, something a tad strange and disquieting (disturbing, maybe) about a guy saying the only reason he’s not committing adultery is because God removed all his desire for other women.

    Excellent observation!

  185. I have to add my funny tata story here. When my kids were young, maybe 5 and 7, they were awfully quiet one day while shopping. I guess I didn’t pay much attention. Just glad they were behaving. Years later my daughter finally told me what really happened. She had decided to pull a joke on her younger brother. She told him that he didn’t want to get fat when he grew up, because he would have to wear a bra like mom did. She pointed out all the big guys they would see, and told him that they were wearing bras. Kid bought it hook, line and sinker.

    I live in east Texas, about 2 hrs from Dallas. Shame on me, I wore a tank top out in pubic today. It was about 90 degrees. Here in my neck of the woods, a lot of ladies don’t even wear bras in public. Piper would be having a fit. No where to look. They are everywhere. Especially the big busted ladies. I’m in the big busted group of ladies. Out in public I dress for comfort and modesty that fits with me. At home, it’s a different story. I may have to go put on the necessary undergarments if you stop by out of the blue. The tatas get very hot in this heat, even with AC.

  186. Daisy wrote:

    There’s just, IMO, something a tad strange and disquieting (disturbing, maybe) about a guy saying the only reason he’s not committing adultery is because God removed all his desire for other women.

    It looks like marriage, for him, is all about his personal enjoyment. Here is one of his articles where he describes it:

    So what’s wrong? Is duty a bad thing? No, it’s not a bad thing. But it can only take you so far. If you want romance, duty won’t reach. The right answer to my wife’s question goes like this: “I couldn’t help myself. My happiness just got out of hand. In fact, to make my day, I’d really enjoy taking you out tonight.”

    The amazing thing about this answer is that it does two things that many people think won’t fit together. It expresses my happiness and makes her feel honored. A lot of people think that if I do something because it makes me happy, it can’t honor another person. But it can! Why? Because delighting in someone is a very high compliment. If you enjoy someone, two amazing things happen: You get the joy; they get the glory. Pleasure is the measure of your treasure.

    “Pleasure is the measure of your treasure.” ?!?!? I found read another article once where he took this idea much further, but I cannot remember the right words to search for that one. It comes across to me as very self-centered when everything has to be about his pleasure and enjoyment. Not that it’s wrong to enjoy pleasing your spouse, but in his case the emphasis seems to be on the wrong thing.

  187. Mae wrote:

    Many a fundy preacher harps on women, “letting themselves go.” As if appearance is the only glue that keeps a marriage together.

    A woman must not let herself go, must take care to ensure her appearance is sufficiently attractive and hot to her husband. However, she is a wanton woman leading men to the fires of hell if she makes herself look hot in a way that might attract the magnetic eyes of someone other than her husband. Quite the needle the wife of a modern day pharisee must thread.

  188. Beakerj wrote:

    I laughed so hard & then I realised that means there would be actual Piper clones out there…shudders. Can you imagine being in a room full of different aged clones all fluttering hands & talking about being winsome?

    I’m not sure how many are out there, but some were grafted to other dividers to hide the true identity of the progenitors. Look at the animated hands of Chan and DeYoung and tell me it’s not true.

  189. Divorce Minister wrote:

    Now, I do applaud Piper for seeking to avoid adultery. But as long as he locates the danger outside of himself–namely, all those “plunging necklines” etc–he is in great danger. Talk about blaming circumstances for one’s own choices!

    I guess what I see in the Sermon on the Mount is not Jesus saying the issue is what women are (or more precisely, AREN’T) wearing but rather what men choose to think about said women. Emphasis ought to be placed upon the person–i.e. the man’s choice–and not on what others wear

    Bingo! Excellent points.

  190. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    t looks like marriage, for him, is all about his personal enjoyment.

    Everything, for him, is all about his personal enjoyment. The guy is a narcissistic creep.

  191. Daisy wrote:

    Anyhow. As to the main point of the post:
    It is kind of funny and frustrating how guys like Piper make his personal struggles EVERYONE’S problem.

    Daisy, sounds exactly like Lori Alexander too!

  192. Daisy wrote:

    It is kind of funny and frustrating how guys like Piper make his personal struggles EVERYONE’S problem.

    Over half of all sermons preached are likely pastors preaching to themselves, hoping they can cure themselves of whatever dread sin has overtaken them through the sheer passion of their sermon. Either that, or it’s simply projection, they want to shove their sin off onto others and point the long finger at the pews (or collapsible chairs). Have watched this game play out over 30 years and delivered dozens of sermons myself many years ago, and that’s my take.

  193. Mae wrote:

    Many a fundy preacher harps on women, “letting themselves go.” As if appearance is the only glue that keeps a marriage together.

    Maybe it is for the fundy preacher’s marriage?

  194. scott hendrixson wrote:

    Also, I read some of his other poems. I think they are a combination of Armenian folk music and the writings on Dr. Bronner’s Castille Soap.

    Just because of you, I looked up “Dr Bronner’s Castile Soap”>

    The only thing I can compare the writings on it to are “Deep Thoughts” from Saturday Night Live.

  195. emily honey wrote:

    Generally, you seem to exist to them as a projection and extension of their own personal thoughts and issues without them ever getting to know you as an equal and individual.

    You only exist in general categories and impressions and stereotypes, projections.

    This is all centered around when they can *see* you, like you are a conditioned, time constrained object that revolves around their perceptions.

    You are not a separate complete person existing outside, before, and after you are around them. Not a full human being with complexity, nuance, history, a story.

    Very true, and good points.

  196. GSD [Getting Stuff Done] wrote:

    this fellow had grown up in Africa, where his parents served as missionaries. It was a rural setting, and “tatas” were a normal part of life, often quite visible.

    I remember reading in a sociology class text book (back when I was in college) that in some African cultures, breasts are not considered sexual, so the women can and do walk around topless, and the men are not the least bit turned on.

    In some tribe in Africa I read about, the thing that got the men turned on were the special patterns that women painted or tattooed on to their faces.

    The example in the book I was looking at, the woman had a geometric pattern drawn on her face – that was went men in her culture found alluring.

  197. Daisy wrote:

    There is no way a girl or woman can dress to please all these men who have different standards of decency.

    I dress according to the circumstances: maybe a tank top and capris; maybe an above the knee skirt; maybe blue jeans with two sets of thermal underwear, thermal socks, hiking boots, and a holster on my hip.

    I decided a long time ago that if you (generic) don’t like the way I look, you are more than welcome to find something else to look at!

  198. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    scott hendrixson wrote:

    Also, I read some of his other poems. I think they are a combination of Armenian folk music and the writings on Dr. Bronner’s Castille Soap.

    Just because of you, I looked up “Dr Bronner’s Castile Soap”>

    The only thing I can compare the writings on it to are “Deep Thoughts” from Saturday Night Live.

    Been using Dr. Bronner’s since the 70’s – still using it today. I have a big bottle in the cabinet under my kitchen sink (peppermint, though the eucalyptus is also good), and cut it 40/60 with water to fill a pump bottle for my hand soap. Sometimes I wash my hair with it – gets the old scalp tingling. We used it for everything back in the day.

    And guess what? The writings are still there on the bottle, and still pretty much the same! The main difference is that I can hardly read them now, my eyes are so messed up.

  199. @ Todd Wilhelm:
    I don’t know how women react to Piper quotes, but I immediately am feeling at least a bisexual issue.

    There is something something dominating his life. He can’t identify it, possibly because he abhors it/himself. Having said that, he can’t shut up about percieved sexual situations, or female bodies.

    Of especial note is the idea that a woman who exercises,and develops a muscular body (what might be viewed as transitioning towards masculinity) is increasingly erotic. Yet, this muscular physique results in some undefined, but diminished sexual relationship.

    Piper sounds like he is in some sort of total sexual obsession, simultaneous with an inability to function as a normal heterosexual male.

  200. scott hendrixson wrote:

    Beakerj wrote:

    I laughed so hard & then I realised that means there would be actual Piper clones out there…shudders. Can you imagine being in a room full of different aged clones all fluttering hands & talking about being winsome?

    I’m not sure how many are out there, but some were grafted to other dividers to hide the true identity of the progenitors. Look at the animated hands of Chan and DeYoung and tell me it’s not true.

    Look up a video of Jason Meyer, the new “pastor of preaching and vision”, I think that means lead pastor, at Bethlehem Baptist Church. Gee, I wonder how he got the gig.

  201. scott hendrixson wrote:

    Also, I read some of his other poems. I think they are a combination of Armenian folk music and the writings on Dr. Bronner’s Castille Soap.

    Is that “Armenian” or “Arminian” folk music!!

    Sorry – I apologise for such bad humour….

  202. Piper quote:

    The image of a masculine musculature may beget arousal in a man, but it does not beget several hours of moonlight walking with significant, caring conversation. The more women can arouse men by doing typically masculine things, the less they can count on receiving from men a sensitivity to typically feminine ”

    My guess is that Piper either totally avoided the recent Wonder Woman film or snuck in to a theater showing that movie while wearing a trench coat.

    Piper must feel conflicted seeing all the tall, strong Amazon women in the film who beat up bad guys with kicks, punches, and swords and arrows.

  203. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    I have compared Piper to Steven Handy on SNL for years! It’s the same meaningless platitudes. Ha ha. But people take Piper seriously. I could never get it. He was silly even before the creep factor went off the charts.

  204. Piper quote:

    Women should dress in such a way that they draw men’s attention towards their eyes, their face, and not towards the other parts of their bodies.

    Reminds me of Gothard-like views and rules. I’ve seen scans of Gothard material people put online where there are drawings of what kind of blouse necklines supposedly draw a man’s view to a woman’s face.

  205. Daisy wrote:

    There’s just, IMO, something a tad strange and disquieting (disturbing, maybe) about a guy saying the only reason he’s not committing adultery is because God removed all his desire for other women.

    There’s “something a tad strange and disquieting (disturbing, maybe)” about this guy in general…

  206. Law Prof wrote:

    Mae wrote:
    Many a fundy preacher harps on women, “letting themselves go.” As if appearance is the only glue that keeps a marriage together.
    A woman must not let herself go, must take care to ensure her appearance is sufficiently attractive and hot to her husband. However, she is a wanton woman leading men to the fires of hell if she makes herself look hot in a way that might attract the magnetic eyes of someone other than her husband. Quite the needle the wife of a modern day pharisee must thread.

    It’s bizarre. DRiscoll blamed Ted Haggards wife for his “homosexual” encounter. She let herself go……

  207. Edward wrote:

    Here I am still trying to discern the meaning of his “sexy stones” tweet.

    “Sexy stones?”
    Just look in your pants.

  208. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    There’s “something a tad strange and disquieting (disturbing, maybe)” about this guy in general…

    There sure is – he’s a vacuous freak, who has somehow gotten himself taken very seriously, idolized in fact, by a certain corner of the evangelical world. That’s disturbing to me…

  209. Stan wrote:

    Now in comparison to hot and vain Dallas, could there be that many salacious ladies in the MINNEAPOLIS airport?

    I flew through Minneapolis airport twice in the past two weeks and didn’t see any “salacious ladies”. Though there were a couple strict Muslim ladies in traditional garb…

  210. [i]Sexy dressing of women is less attractive than modest beauty.[/i]

    And if that is indeed the case, then why does Piper warn against sexy dressing? If modest beauty is more attractive, then that’s where the male gaze will go.

  211. Divorce Minister wrote:

    Like Dee explains, divorce seems to be the greater sin (than abuse and adultery) in the practical theology of Piper. It is sad.

    Every time I hear of “Divorce Is The Unpardonable Sin” preaching, I wonder if that’s because if it wasn’t, the preacher’s wife would leave him in a heartbeat.

  212. dee wrote:

    1. I hope they don’t need to do a body search on me.
    2. Where’s the restroom?
    3. Anything decent to eat around here?
    4. Dee’s texting me again.
    5. I hope I don’t get seated next to a talker or someone who has a tuna sandwich.
    6.I wish I was going to the beach.

    7. WHERE’S MY CONNECTION GATE????? (That was in Minneapolis, on the leg out. Terminal 1 at Mipple City is huge and easy to get lost in.)

    Bit of oral history of Furry Fandom (that has a TaTa tie-in):
    A well-known Eighties B&W furry comic titled Omaha the Cat Dancer was set in a fictionalized Furry Minneapolis called “Mipple City” after the airline abbreviation “Mpls”. Since the comic was X-rated, “Mipple City” soon mutated into “Nipple City”.

  213. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Ken F (aka Tweed):

    i feel sick…

    truly, that wins the grand prize for objectification of women.

    I’m with you, elastigirl. What weird disgusting nonsense. And yet, his fans and apologists will be nodding in agreement. Because he said it. There are whole realms of so-called evangelical so-called Christianity full of preachers and their fans like this.

    It is very disheartening. All I can think of is the damage they’re doing to the Kingdom. They are ignorant know-nothings, worshipped by ignorant know-nothings, and Jesus is nowhere in sight with them. How do they dare?

  214. Lydia wrote:

    DRiscoll blamed Ted Haggards wife for his “homosexual” encounter. She let herself go……

    Have you seen Driscoll lately? He has let himself go really bad. No more spiky hairdo and that necklace-thing he used to wear.

  215. Dee,

    I seem to recall that you are something of a Trekkie. Wasn’t one of the classic episodes from ST:TOS titled “The Trouble with Tatas”? 🙂

  216. Kathi wrote:

    I work at a large athletic company and our current screen saver when you log out of the computer is an image of the newest athletic bra coming out – worn by a woman. So every logged out computer screen shows covered boobies! Oh, the horror! Piper wouldn’t last 2 seconds. It’s a female body, get over it! I can’t wait to try this new sports bra. It looks fantastic!

    The company I retired from last December (after 17-1/2 years) owned Playtex, Bali, Maidenform, and Champion. (We also introduced Wonderbra to an unsuspecting world, but its time has come and gone.)

    IOW, I hear ya!

  217. @ Daisy:

    “…the recent Wonder Woman film…”
    +++++++++++

    i predict the complementarian response to this film will be suppressed paranoid hysteria, grave warnings & all.

    no powerful women heroes allowed.

    I’m sure “What I do is not up to you” made their toes curl backwards.

  218. Max wrote:

    He has let himself go

    Let himself go? Why, then his wife can’t be blamed if she has an affair. According to his own teaching.

    What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander!

  219. After the devastating fires that raged through the Tennessee Smokies last November, Dolly Parton poured untold dollars and other resources into rebuilding the community. She provided shelter for the homeless and food for the hungry. God bless Dolly Parton.

  220. Good grief, Piper and Co would have a terrible time on beaches in Europe where little girls wear just swimming shorts.

  221. dee wrote:

    Note to all ladies n the South
    It is quite hot today. Are your tatas undercover?

    For whatever reason, this reminds me of a news story about two, three years ago.

    Comps like Piper are in error to put the onus on women for how or what men think about sexuality.

    It doesn’t matter what a woman wears, a guy will lust after her regardless

    A few years ago, there was a news story about a woman professional on “Linked In” who was hit on by a guy who saw her professional head shot and was flirting with her.

    This story went viral because she sent out screen shots of her reply to the guy, which was to inform him Linked In is not a dating site and she’s not there to get dates.

    Here you have a guy hitting on a woman wearing a business blazer in her profile photo (there was nothing sexy about her photo that I can recall) on a business site. She was not on there to flirt with guys or pick men up. And she got hit on anyhow.

  222. Just for fun, if you’ve not seen this poetry excerpt before and I’m not duplicating—
    Who wrote the poem and who published it for a God’s green earth to read?
    Bonus question— Why did the publisher publish it?
    “Her breasts are like rose-tipped apples of ivory,
    And her belly is like a ocean wave, smooth and restful.
    Her legs are like pillars of granite, strong and firm.
    And her feet like those of a deer, swift and beautiful.
    Her breath is like sweet nectar,
    Her kisses like perfumed flowers,
    And her love like paradise.”
    Googling (and ogling) not fair…

  223. @ Max:
    Another creepy “uncle”. My guess is Arizona heat compared to Seattle and the grueling process of rebuilding a mega from scratch when many now know he is a con……are not the same at his age.

    He and James McDonald can Lament together. Although McDonald is now SBC then loses all those churches. I bet that blows it for Mohler. CJ isn’t bringing money in either. Did you hear Greg Laurie is, too? Mohler has to find money somewhere to keep flowing.

  224. Donnie wrote:

    Piper’s rant exposes one of my major problems with Calvinist theology. It’s two-faced.
    On one hand Piper preaches about the salvation of “the elect” and how nobody can do anything one way or the other to earn salvation. God chose us eons ago and that’s that.
    Yet, on the other hand, he appears to believe that having a stray lustful thought about a woman he’s not married to is enough to send him to Hell for all eternity.
    So which is it?

    Good points.

    I am also slightly distracted by your Hank Hill avatar. 🙂

  225. refugee wrote:

    It’s because, in their theology, women aren’t supposed to enjoy sex. They are merely supposed to endure it. (“Lie back and think of England.”)

    Yep. That is a point I think I mentioned above somewhere. In a lot of complementarian views, only men want/like sex, all women only supposedly want emotional connection and have zero libido.

  226. scott hendrixson wrote:

    Also, I read some of his other poems. I think they are a combination of Armenian folk music and the writings on Dr. Bronner’s Castille Soap.

    Hey! Armenian folk music rocks!

  227. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    There is no way a girl or woman can dress to please all these men who have different standards of decency.
    I dress according to the circumstances: maybe a tank top and capris; maybe an above the knee skirt; maybe blue jeans with two sets of thermal underwear, thermal socks, hiking boots, and a holster on my hip.
    I decided a long time ago that if you (generic) don’t like the way I look, you are more than welcome to find something else to look at!

    Another thing about how arbitrary this is, and you cannot predict how all men will react.

    When I was in my 20s and 30s, when I was way more insecure about my looks, I would usually leave the house completely made-up, with my hair fixed. I notice I normally didn’t get flirted much with.

    But on those few occasions I went out in a hurry,put my hair up in a messy pony tail, little make-up, old, torn up jeans and a slooppy t-shirt I would get cat-calls and flirted with by different men.

    This always confused me, because the messages I got growing up from the schools I went to, from Hollywood movies, etc, is that men will only consider a woman attractive and ask her on a date if she looks like a perfect air-brushed model with lots of (perfectly applied) make-up.

    But about every time in my life guys have asked me out or hit on me, it’s when I’m pretty casual looking and didn’t put a lot of effort into my looks.

    And guys like Piper expect there is a “one rule fits all” with this modesty stuff?

  228. Nathan Priddis wrote:

    Piper sounds like he is in some sort of total sexual obsession, simultaneous with an inability to function as a normal heterosexual male.

    and etc other quotes by Piper.

    Piper in this regard reminds me of Mark Driscoll. Driscoll once wrote some bizarre comment (in a post or book??) about how if a guy, um, self pleasures himself while looking into a mirror, he is probably homosexual or might turn homosexual

    I see comments like those, or these ones by Piper and think these guys are revealing far more about themselves than they are illuminating or educating others about avoiding sexual sins, or telling us what the Bible says about sexual stuff.

  229. JYJames wrote:

    @ Catholic Gate-Crasher:
    LOL
    We were looking at the same thing at the same time.

    Great minds…channels 😀

  230. I haven’t read this whole thread, but I’ve been collecting weird tweets. Here are some more strange Piper tweets:

    “Deep calls to deep” is true of her necklines and his knowing. The problem is, Jesus is not a fertility god.
    6:00 PM – 8 Jan 2013

    **************

    “The Lord will lay bare their secret parts.” Isaiah 3:17. Public nudity not only deserves judgment. It is judgment.
    10:02 AM – 15 Sep 2014

    *****************

    Piper: Is the exposure of God’s buttocks really a faithful exposition of Exodus 33? Or is the pope being mooned?
    6:33 PM – 25 Jun 2016

    ***********************

    “God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham.” Luke 3:8 Wealthy stones. Sexy stones. Political stones. Precious stones.
    11:30 AM – 11 Jun 2017

  231. Max wrote:

    Have you seen Driscoll lately? He has let himself go really bad.

    So, if his wife Grace has an affair, we can all say it’s because “he let himself go.”

  232. elastigirl wrote:

    i predict the complementarian response to this film will be suppressed paranoid hysteria, grave warnings & all.
    no powerful women heroes allowed.
    I’m sure “What I do is not up to you” made their toes curl backwards.

    Some comps already wrote editorials about the new Wonder Woman movie.

    I’ve been thinking of writing a blog post about it – Wonder Women movie vis a vis complementarinaism – but haven’t gotten around to it yet.

  233. clarissa wrote:

    Good grief, Piper and Co would have a terrible time on beaches in Europe where little girls wear just swimming shorts.

    Not to mention grandmothers who wear bikinis (especially on Majorca) and are not the least bit ashamed of what they are.

  234. Ok, this is so strange and weird timing that I have to mention this. I was listening to another pastor who spoke at our former church on this very subject regarding wanting only his wife. This is a pastor in Arizona who is also like minded to piper he even quotes or mentions pipers books in this question/answer session. Anyway its odd that Dee posts this topic because I listened to this man and i’m not joking when I say its similar to what Dee just posted. I am transcribing what he said along with another speaker who basically says unbiblical for wives to deny their husbands sex and that if it causes her discomfort or pain that she should see a doctor and get something to help with that. I was stunned at what I was hearing and i’m dying to transcribe that one because these men travel in the same circles.

  235. Lydia wrote:

    Did you hear Greg Laurie is, too? Mohler has to find money somewhere to keep flowing.

    Laurie’s from my stompin’ grounds. His mega-biggie is just a piece yonder East on the 91 fwy.
    I wonder what his angle is with Mohler? Is he going to covert to neo-reformed?

  236. Daisy wrote:

    I see comments like those, or these ones by Piper and think these guys are revealing far more about themselves than they are illuminating or educating others about avoiding sexual sins, or telling us what the Bible says about sexual stuff.

    i.e. unwanted peeks into the ManaGAWD’s sexual kinks?

  237. @ Muff Potter:
    I often wonder if the whole push is to create a super denomination that dominates the Christian Industrial Complex in publishing, conferences, plastic fish sales, etc, That would not be a hard sell to mega church pastors. Keep your autonomy but have access to a larger audience for merchandising. Mohler would be the Pope.

  238. Daisy wrote:

    I see comments like those, or these ones by Piper and think these guys are revealing far more about themselves than they are illuminating or educating others about avoiding sexual sins, or telling us what the Bible says about sexual stuff.

    It’s more then just revealing. There is some massively wrong, and like minded men can’t shut up or keep it inside. No he is not the first. Of the milestones of church history and evolution of the faith. There a few of the greatest that come to mind.

    Institutes of the Christian Religion-Calvin (commandments of a man)
    On Christian Doctrine-Augustine (earlier commandments of Calvin’s source of validation)
    Confessions-Augustine (a tortured look back from a then older man recounting self revulsion and guilt of sin, significantly regarding sex, but seemingly unable to identify himself as homosexual)

    Piper’s urging for men to lift up their eyes feels like deja vu. A man can see right through it.

  239. Muff Potter wrote:

    It ain’t just young reformers Max. Young liberals and progressives (at another blog) descended on me like hornets to a hiker in the Wisconsin woods for daring to advocate a live-and-let-live attitude toward Old Glory in the church sanctuary.

    I came unglued on the Sunday after 9/11 because the American flag had been folded in a wreath and hung from a processional cross in the narthex at an Episcopal church I was attending. I knew that more than Americans had died in the Twin Towers and absolutely lost my cool. My days were not long for that church.

  240. I think John Piper may possibly be preparing himself for August 26. The US Congress has made August 26 into a nationally recognized date and named it “Women’s Equality Day”. This year August 26 coincides with “Go Topless Day” when women are invited to go topless in public. In Minneapolis, MN women are meeting at Gold Meadow Park for topless protests. He may out of necessity have to be in the park during the time of the topless protests, but he has assured himself and anyone who may recognize him in the park that all those topless women have absolutely no effect on him.

  241. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    “That peculiar desire to be intimate with Noël has never shifted onto another woman.” – Piper

    To me Piper’s use of the word “peculiar” to describe his desire for his wife, is very revealing.

  242. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Every time I hear of “Divorce Is The Unpardonable Sin” preaching, I wonder if that’s because if it wasn’t, the preacher’s wife would leave him in a heartbeat.

    Ding, ding, ding! I think we have a winner.

    My former pastor, when he was in the middle of seducing one of the vulnerable women in the church, would preach, “If your spouse isn’t making you happy, leave them.” He was daring his wife to leave. Then, after she would reach her toleration limit and confront the ‘other woman,’ and the excrement would start flying, he would preach that there was never, under any circumstance, a valid reason for divorce. He preached to her constantly. And it’s interesting that she would confront the other woman, before she would confront him. And then she would do the clean up/cover up, shifting all the blame onto the ‘other woman’ and taking on the role of victim. Very strange and unhealthy dynamic. And they are not complementarian, though they have latched onto the shepherding and covering thing…

  243. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    “Pleasure is the measure of your treasure.” ?!?!? I found read another article once where he took this idea much further, but I cannot remember the right words to search for that one. It comes across to me as very self-centered when everything has to be about his pleasure and enjoyment. Not that it’s wrong to enjoy pleasing your spouse, but in his case the emphasis seems to be on the wrong thing.

    This is his “Christian Hedonism” put into effect. I read most of the book and it’s just secular hedonism dressed up in Christian garments. Inside it is the same. His 300+ book “The Pleasures of God” is just a hopeless attempt to justify this abomination against the inevitable objectors. I wasn’t impressed with it but sadly many of my Christian friends were – which explains why they are still at the Gospel Coalition church which I walked out of.

  244. scott hendrixson wrote:

    Edward wrote:
    Haha, thankfully he hasn’t deleted it, so you can still see him getting mercilessly roasted in the replies
    https://twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/873970685588246528
    Those are some of the most mazing replies ever.

    And I’ve taken a screenshot as I am sure many have. Should that disappear it will come back to haunt him.

    Side note: if you ever want to capture a screenshot of a full page, install Fireshot. It actually moves down the page and captures everything and allows you to save it as a PDF or image.

  245. Daisy wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Have you seen Driscoll lately? He has let himself go really bad.
    //
    So, if his wife Grace has an affair, we can all say it’s because “he let himself go.”

    According to New Calvinists I know, it doesn’t work like that. Particularly Driscoll, and likely Piper, will take Bruce Ware’s theology that women are made for men and therefore only the men get privilege of choice. We’ve already seen a huge number of excuses and passes given to men who have affairs or sexually abuse others for any reason those men desire, but I can only imagine if a woman does the same she’d have to endure years of church discipline and verbal abuse, as well as long-term harassment, whether she sought a divorce or not. Probably eventually would have to if that happened.

  246. ishy wrote:

    We’ve already seen a huge number of excuses and passes given to men who have affairs or sexually abuse others for any reason those men desire, but I can only imagine if a woman does the same she’d have to endure years of church discipline and verbal abuse, as well as long-term harassment, whether she sought a divorce or not.

    To sum up, women are owned objects and men are the owners. Pets are probably treated better than wives.

  247. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Daisy wrote:
    There is no way a girl or woman can dress to please all these men who have different standards of decency.
    I dress according to the circumstances: maybe a tank top and capris; maybe an above the knee skirt; maybe blue jeans with two sets of thermal underwear, thermal socks, hiking boots, and a holster on my hip.
    I decided a long time ago that if you (generic) don’t like the way I look, you are more than welcome to find something else to look at!

    Well, doesn’t that just make sense, dressing for the circumstances!!

    I’d like to know how many sermons have been preached on mens appearance? How, many sermons on, ” letting themselves go”, has caused their wife to have wondering eyes?

    This stuff is such foolishness. Where in the bible are the rules for dressing modestly? Did Jesus ever preach a sermon on busty women being a distraction? How he couldn’t go to Nazareth without seeing too many “boobs” displayed? And by gosh, he was single.

    Are there people ,male/female, who wear clothing, or no clothing, around us? Yes! What does that have to do with how I conduct myself?

  248. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    God bless Dolly Parton

    Absolutely! A couple of years ago when I had to drive through central London I chose Dolly’s greatest hits as my power soundtrack. It’s like driving through a rioting zoo where everyone is determined to die at speed. At one point I had a cyclist pedaling like fury next to all 4 corners of my car, but Dolly got me through.

  249. Beakerj wrote:

    It’s like driving through a rioting zoo where everyone is determined to die at speed.

    I can empathize. Once I was a tourist in holiday on a bus and imagined the reaper sitting next the driver, who imagined he was Lewis Hamilton. I feared he’d tip us over as we careened through 500 yo streets at 50mph trying to set a new course record.

  250. Lydia wrote:

    Is Barnabas Piper still at Lifeway?

    Yes, he is on Lifeway’s Leadership Development Team. He recently divorced.

  251. Lydia wrote:

    Did you hear Greg Laurie is, too?

    Yes, I heard Laurie joined SBC. I’m still trying to figure that one out, wondering who recruited him to SBC ranks. As an evangelist who was part of the Jesus Movement, he doesn’t seem to fit with Mohler and the boys … they sure don’t talk about Jesus much.

  252. Dave A A wrote:

    Lewis Hamilton

    ION the real Hamilton seems to have done just fine today. They just played “My country, ’tis of thee in his honor.
    ION, in the absence of Murray, 53yo Federerer attempts to take Wimbledon.
    IHTIH. Sorry to steal Nick’s thunder.

  253. Max wrote:

    Is Barnabas Piper still at Lifeway?
    Yes, he is on Lifeway’s Leadership Development Team. He recently divorced.

    How can he develop leaders when he couldn’t “lead” his wife? Ya gotta feel a bit sorry for a guy raised by the man who retranslated Eph 5:25 as “Husbands, lead your wives just as Christ led the church”.

  254. Ken G wrote:

    The US Congress has made August 26 into a nationally recognized date and named it “Women’s Equality Day”. This year August 26 coincides with “Go Topless Day” when women are invited to go topless in public.

    Historically, it seems a bit odd when going topless coincides with equality – we’ve come a long way, it seems..!

    But I can imagine how women’s equality would spook someone so dedicated to patriarchy – that is, the belief that men are “called” by “God” to a higher position and it is theirs as a birthright. Never mind topless women’s equality. Especially if it took a miracle before he could control his goolies.

  255. P.S.

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    goolies

    This is a common colloquialism in Blighty that you may not be familiar with over on the left. I’m sure you can guess, though.

  256. Incidentally, I had a quick butcher’s hook at the Wiki article on National Women’s Equality Day; it seems the President is “authoriz*ed and requested” to proclaim it. Moreover, as far as I can discover, Congress was Democrat-controlled in those days. I’m slightly surprised that weird new orange laddie hasn’t repealed this.

    * yes, I know. But the zed is in the original.

  257. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Steve wrote:
    Serious question: What does this mean?
    It means Piper needs professional help.

    Well… the building in the fotie is, unless I’m very much mistaken, the magnificent and iconic chapel of King’s College, Cambridge. Looks like a Kings student has hacked his twitter account. Or maybe satan has hacked his twitter account and just borrowed a stock fotie. Hard to tell.

  258. Oh, and apparently satan’s not hanging out in the bars. Good news – I’m off down the pub.

  259. Dave A A wrote:

    I can empathize. Once I was a tourist in holiday on a bus and imagined the reaper sitting next the driver, who imagined he was Lewis Hamilton. I feared he’d tip us over as we careened through 500 yo streets at 50mph trying to set a new course record.

    Reminds me of a true story some years ago of when a speeding driver was pulled over shortly before the British round of the Formula 1 world championship.

    Police laddie: Who do you think you are, Nigel Mansell?
    Driver: Actually, I’m Ayrton Senna.

    And it was indeed he.

  260. Dave A A wrote:

    IHTIH. Sorry to steal Nick’s thunder.

    Steal away, Dave – all my tennis bulletins are ending up in customs at the moment.

    Anyway, I need to go and finish off in the garden, then apply for a job.

  261. So, due to the subject matter at hand, lots of comments are going unto moderation. Sorry for the delay in approving them.

  262. It’s one of those “funny but not” posts.

    Methinks he doth protest too much!

    Never heard of this clown until I started reading TWW. With his obsession with sex and roles and the rest of it, how is this guy able to get any following.

    He makes Victorian society appear like an episode of Rowan & Martin’s Laff In.

    The funny – pretty much everything about his juvenile obsession with sex. A Calvinist “Beavis & Butthead”. Huh huh …. you said ta ta…huh huh.

    The unfunny – the damage being done to hundreds of young girls and boys (not to mention men and women).

    This repression/obsession in some religious cultures leads to terrible abuse, to “rape culture” mentality that a woman “deserves it” based on what she’s wearing or how she’s acting. This certainly isn’t just a Christian thing – it’s endemic to other faiths and sects as well.

    Well should you want to here in Canada, women can go topless – it’s been challenged.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom_in_Canada

    Including in my jurisdiction. Not many women do though. Might have something to do with near freezing temperatures for a good chunk of the year.

  263. ZechZav wrote:

    This is his “Christian Hedonism” put into effect.

    I don’t understand why more people don’t seem to see his false teaching for what it is. For all his emphasis on sola scriptura, his foundational principles upon which he builds his theology have no basis in scriptura. For example, where is this supported in the Bible: “God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him”? But say it enough times and people start to believe it.

  264. elastigirl wrote:

    i feel sick…

    truly, that wins the grand prize for objectification of women.

    It truly is a terrible teaching. Piper is the kind of false teacher we were warned about in the Bible.

  265. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Then why does he not just implant a wire in his pleasure center and turn on the trickle-current?

    Reminds me of a Michael Crichton novel I read in my youth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terminal_Man.

    Benson is learning to initiate seizures involuntarily because the result of these seizures is a shock of pleasure, which leads to him having more frequent seizures.

    Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” probably has some kind of similar effect – always looking for the next pleasurable high, the next pleasure jolt. This is a very fleshly way of living that has no support in the Bible.

  266. Steve wrote:

    @ Ken F (aka Tweed):
    I agree. But what is he talking about in this tweet? Is the subject being addressed theological or medical or other?

    The tweet is linked a blog post on Desiring God where the author “pseudo-sacrifice” makes the point that evangelical churches are a tool of Satan. It seems to taunt those condemned to hell at birth. It’s like criticizing children in poor neighborhoods because they don’t have the same opportunity as others.

  267. scott hendrixson wrote:

    The tweet is linked a blog post on Desiring God where the author “pseudo-sacrifice” makes the point that evangelical churches are a tool of Satan. It seems to taunt those condemned to hell at birth. It’s like criticizing children in poor neighborhoods because they don’t have the same opportunity as others.

    And I wonder why they don’t take comments.

  268. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Police laddie: Who do you think you are, Nigel Mansell?
    Driver: Actually, I’m Ayrton Senna.

    Though I commented just as Hamilton was taking the checkered (or is it chequered?) flag, at first I was going to say Jackie Stewart. But that would date me. Then I thought of Graham Hill and his tragic London crash. (his plane, not car).

  269. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    why more people don’t seem to see his false teaching for what it is

    It’s an enigma. Layered. Wrapped in the trappings of what “seems” at a fleeting glance spiritually sound.

    Discernment and critical thinking are called for. Attention to “Where is that in the Bible?” and “How really did Jesus live?” and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Look beneath the surface, refuse the Kool-aid.

    Guessing that once the false teaching begins small, as followers amass, the foolishness snowballs.

    In the Bible, from Palm Sunday to the crucifixion the crowds went from fans to foes. Crowds. And then Peter denied Christ his Savior, in fear, of the authorities? the crowds?

  270. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” probably has some kind of similar effect

    I know we frequently think Piper has lost it and needs professional help, when his illness may indeed be Christian Hedonism itself.

  271. Lydia wrote:

    Mohler would be the Pope.

    Dunno about that. Laurie has an ego as big as Jupiter’s red spot. So does Mohler. They might hafta’ duke it out like the alpha males on Game of Thrones.
    And so long as the serfs are taxed beyond their limits to finance the war, what could be better?

  272. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Incidentally, I had a quick butcher’s hook at the Wiki article on National Women’s Equality Day; it seems the President is “authoriz*ed and requested” to proclaim it. Moreover, as far as I can discover, Congress was Democrat-controlled in those days. I’m slightly surprised that weird new orange laddie hasn’t repealed this.
    * yes, I know. But the zed is in the original.

    It almost seems that the events were arranged to fall on the same day this year. Not sure which group might have done this. I wouldn’t put it past any of the possible decision makers; Congress, President, or topless day organizers. I’d rather the events had separate days.

  273. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    And I wonder why they don’t take comments.

    Because this way, no one can contest the horrible theology coming out of that camp. Everyone just reads it and agrees because it is coming from Piper or his Piperetts . . .

  274. Dave A A wrote:

    I know we frequently think Piper has lost it and needs professional help, when his illness may indeed be Christian Hedonism itself.

    Yes!

  275. Muff Potter wrote:

    And so long as the serfs are taxed beyond their limits to finance the war, what could be better?

    Oligarchs in church leadership now, one and all? It’s a thing?

  276. Ken G wrote:

    He may out of necessity have to be in the park during the time of the topless protests, but he has assured himself and anyone who may recognize him in the park that all those topless women have absolutely no effect on him.

    Yes, he might be forced to “endure it for a season.”

  277. Muff Potter wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    Mohler would be the Pope.
    Dunno about that. Laurie has an ego as big as Jupiter’s red spot. So does Mohler. They might hafta’ duke it out like the alpha males on Game of Thrones.
    And so long as the serfs are taxed beyond their limits to finance the war, what could be better?

    I think it’s a whole movement of ego males, so eventually they were going to start chafing at the system they themselves set up because they do believe somebody has to be in charge of everybody else.

    They’ve tolerated each other doing stupid stuff for a long time, but it’s about time they started in-fighting.

  278. ION: Cricket.

    South Africa have set England a million to win. When I last checked, England had scored more runs than we’d thrown away wickets.

  279. dee wrote:

    So, due to the subject matter at hand, lots of comments are going unto moderation.

    Yeah, tennis is like that sometimes.

  280. ishy wrote:

    They’ve tolerated each other doing stupid stuff for a long time, but it’s about time they started in-fighting.

    With mega egos in proximity: inevitable.

  281. dee wrote:

    Note to all ladies n the South
    It is quite hot today. Are your tatas undercover?

    Not kidding here– when I first read the headline I thought “Why would Piper have trouble with the creation of taters?” Maybe you were typing in a southun accent. In my nawthun state we keep our famous taters under cover of dirt!
    I’m feeling thankful — It’s currently 76, clear and dry. This is the upside of wintery weather ending just a month ago. The snow is nearly melted off our mountains– I can see just 3 patches from here. Supposed to make it to 84 later. Meanwhile, at Vostok Station, it’s 84 below (in the shade). Things could be worse.

  282. JYJames wrote:

    ishy wrote:

    They’ve tolerated each other doing stupid stuff for a long time, but it’s about time they started in-fighting.

    With mega egos in proximity: inevitable.

    The Universe Cannot Have Two Centers.
    Let the Game of Thrones begin.

  283. JYJames wrote:

    Federer.

    I prefer Federererer so it sounds like a dog growling or a car starter grinding. But I toned it down in my previous comment. I like how he makes fodderer of so many opponents.

  284. Muff Potter wrote:

    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    And I wonder why they don’t take comments.

    Because like children, serfs are to be seen and not heard.

    The only reason for a serf’s existence is the enrichment and convenience of his Highborn Milord.

  285. Muff Potter wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Mohler would be the Pope.

    Dunno about that. Laurie has an ego as big as Jupiter’s red spot. So does Mohler. They might hafta’ duke it out like the alpha males on Game of Thrones.

    And after they have killed each other (and all their serfs), the White Walkers come from the North to loot the ruins and rule all.

  286. Dave A A wrote:

    Just for fun, if you’ve not seen this poetry excerpt before and I’m not duplicating—
    Who wrote the poem and who published it for a God’s green earth to read?
    Bonus question— Why did the publisher publish it?
    “Her taters are like rose-tipped apples of ivory,
    And her belly is like a ocean wave, smooth and restful.
    Her legs are like pillars of granite, strong and firm.
    And her feet like those of a deer, swift and beautiful.
    Her breath is like sweet nectar,
    Her kisses like perfumed flowers,
    And her love like paradise.”
    Googling (and ogling) not fair…

    I think this stayed in customs too long for anyone to make guesses. So I’m reposting with one modification.

  287. JYJames wrote:

    Guessing that once the false teaching begins small, as followers amass, the foolishness snowballs.

    Groupthink sets in, and all dissidents are burned.

  288. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Piper’s “Christian Hedonism” probably has some kind of similar effect – always looking for the next pleasurable high, the next pleasure jolt.

    Isn’t that called an Addiction/Tolerance response?

    And (in almost so many words) was the motivation for the Cenobites in Hellraiser‘s Hell of the Labyrinth? Always going for greater and greater “Sensation” (without mortality to set an upper limity) to cut the utter boredom of Hell?

  289. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    ZechZav wrote:

    This is his “Christian Hedonism” put into effect.

    I don’t understand why more people don’t seem to see his false teaching for what it is.

    “For God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.”
    — favorite Bible Bullet of End Times types from my time in-country, always referring to the other guy

  290. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The Universe Cannot Have Two Centers.
    Let the Game of Thrones begin

    If Ed Young Jr. and the eunuch from Game could have a child, he would look like Robert Morris.

  291. Nathan Priddis wrote:

    There is something something dominating his life. He can’t identify it, possibly because he abhors it/himself. Having said that, he can’t shut up about percieved sexual situations, or female bodies.

    Like Ted Haggard giving Fred Phelps a run for his money before he got caught with a Rentboy?

    “You can tell when a preacher’s in trouble when he stops preaching what he’s for and only preaches what he’s against.”

  292. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “You can tell when a preacher’s in trouble when he stops preaching what he’s for and only preaches what he’s against.”

    Makes sense.
    The speaker is losing a battle.
    But blames everyone else, the outside influences.
    Therefore tell everyone else to straighten up.
    And the speaker’s victory will follow, because the influences are cured or gone.

  293. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Lots of alone time, ringing for tea, but alone time.
    The life of a loner entity at the top and accountable to no one, especially and even the subordinate wife (as opposed to life partner).
    Reading and writing, on the computer, to churn out speeches, books, posts, words – lots of.
    Going to inappropriate sites, to see what the active boys and girls are doing?

  294. JYJames wrote:

    Going to inappropriate sites, to see what the active boys and girls are doing?

    Something to endure for a season…

  295. Ken F (aka Tweed) wrote:

    Ken G wrote:
    He may out of necessity have to be in the park during the time of the topless protests, but he has assured himself and anyone who may recognize him in the park that all those topless women have absolutely no effect on him.
    Yes, he might be forced to “endure it for a season.”

    Yes…practice what he preaches. 🙂

  296. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    My daughter is really into that wee ADHD laddie’s “First World Problem” videos. He offers a remedy:

     Here’s a lid, and a cup full of water. Now shut the full cup.

  297. Nathan Priddis wrote:

    Piper sounds like he is in some sort of total sexual obsession, simultaneous with an inability to function as a normal heterosexual male.

    I am not a *psy, but I think that Piper’s problems are deeper than sexual identity. I think that Piper is missing something at the level of personhood and tries to substitute with an overlarge persona. His references to other people sound very artificial or abstract (not exactly the words but the best I can come up with) to me, almost as characters in a play. Also I think that he covers up the lack of meaning in what he says with a blizzard of florid prose and juvenile poetry which the in-group reflexively praises, knowing that failure to do so means being cast out. In other words, it is a cult of personality which he encourages. It is idolatrous.

    If I were Noel Piper, I would be utterly humiliated by what Piper wrote about being miraculously delivered from lust. There is not one word of devotion toward her which fixes his attachment to her only, despite the daily temptation. Only a miracle of God can do that. Okrapod nailed it. It is a bogus story, and every person who has been through adolescence knows it.

  298. Dave A A wrote:

    Her taters are like rose-tipped apples of ivory

    Sounds vaguely like Solomon, but I’m pretty sure taters had not made their way to the ME yet. 🙂

    The Holy Spirit wrote those words, according to Piper’s doctrine of inspiration, so that might be problematic for Piper’s fastidiousness. The first publishers would have been the temple scribes, I suppose. The purpose has been debated, and I am undecided, though Driscoll certainly had no doubts.

  299. @ Ken G:
    He relocated in retirement?

    Regarding obsession and showing up: When the Clinton – Monica hearings were released, a worker noticed ladies who [appeared to not be dating] were late night customers, purchasing the pricey document. He thought it strange until it occurred to him that they could be curious to read how active ladies were engaged. Possibly, what they were missing.

  300. Gram3 wrote:

    There is not one word of devotion toward her which fixes his attachment to her only

    Is there devotion in hierarchy? What kind of devotion is it?

  301. JYJames wrote:

    Is there devotion in hierarchy? What kind of devotion is it?

    The Inferior gushing with praise for The Superior, of course.
    Tabaqui the Jackal praising Shere Khan for some scraps from the tiger’s kill.

  302. Lydia wrote:

    I often wonder if the whole push is to create a super denomination that dominates the Christian Industrial Complex in publishing, conferences, plastic fish sales, etc, That would not be a hard sell to mega church pastors.

    Enigma Babylon One World Faith?

  303. Lydia wrote:

    I often wonder if the whole push is to create a super denomination that dominates the Christian Industrial Complex in publishing, conferences, plastic fish sales, etc, That would not be a hard sell to mega church pastors. Keep your autonomy but have access to a larger audience for merchandising. Mohler would be the Pope.

    That may be the case, though I think they are shooting themselves in the foot with a lot of their antics if that is their strategy. The authoritarian covenants, the weird ESS and worm theology, the heavy emphasis on men, etc. I honestly think they are going to run themselves into the ground because people will get tired of being told what to do without any real personal benefit.

  304. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    is blech a reasonable reaction? TMI especially considering the people.
    but certainly illuminating. weirdweirdweird

    Yes. If I found poetry about my mom’s taters, I’d feel sick and destroy it. Pastor John, not so much.

  305. Lydia wrote:

    Shaft as in ” what you sayin”? Like the 70’s, Shaft?

    That’s the one. Now he watches Dos Equis commercials studying the most interesting man in the world.

  306. Gram3 wrote:

    Sounds vaguely like Solomon

    It’s Bill Piper writing about John’s mum, inspired by the Song of Songs. John published it, which reminds me of the curse of Ham.

  307. I’ve heard quite a few SGM women talking about how the modesty teaching has turned them off from their husbands. The modesty teaching completely invalidates everything these men professed to their young brides in their vows. To have a pastor administer the wedding and then spend much of the marriage talking about how the men are just animals with instinctive cravings leaves women really doubting the sincerity of their husband who professed love for them and a Covenant with God to be faithful. Are men really capable of love or care? And, if they aren’t, then do women really want anything to do with them? A lot of women had said the teaching of both Piper and Mahaney have really led to a physical revulsion of their husbands.

    CLC, in the wake of the SGM split has had so many divorces, I don’t think they even know who is together and who is not. I know at least some of those had to do with the revulsion women felt towards their husbands due to the purity teachings.

  308. I belong to an adult Sunday School class where most of the members are in their 70s and 80s (I’m just going to be 60). I wonder if Piper would find the following story that was shared in our class this morning even slightly funny:

    The bride to be is 89. The groom to be is 92. They walk into a large pharmacy and find the manager. They have all kinds of questions for him.
    -Do you carry medications?
    -All kinds.
    -Walkers, canes, and toilet seat risers?
    -All the latest models.
    -Ointments, suppositories, hemorrhoid creams?
    -We have a full supply.
    -Adult diapers? –
    -In every size and style.

    The couple talks to each other in low voices, and come back with a reply.
    -We would like to use your store as our bridal registry.

    We all howled.

  309. Anybody remember Dr. Ruth Westheimer’s forays into the topic of human sexuality?
    I still say that she makes way more sense than John Piper and Denny Burk combined.
    Any day of the week and six-ways-to-Sunday.

  310. Piper is seriously warped. Protests way too much, yet it’s clear from what he writes that he objectifies women just as much as the worst of what he’s supposedly protesting against. Here’s a novel idea. Treat people as people, full, whole, complete, and made in the image of God. Do that first, and other things have a way of falling in place. Including physicality and sexuality.

    BTW, I was raised in a Muslim country. Very strict on dress. Big on modesty. Separation of men and women. The whole nine yards. Piper would probably have loved it if he could have given it his own theological gloss. But the reality was that if a young woman wandered into the bazaar without some kind of accompaniment for protection (usually a brother, uncle, or other guy), getting leered at, slapped, pinched or worse was nearly inevitable. It’s a sick system that warps a lot of people badly and treats a lot of people as subhuman.

  311. John wrote:

    Treat people as people, full, whole, complete, and made in the image of God. Do that first, and other things have a way of falling in place.

    Simple yet brilliant. Wisdom, commandment #2 out of 2 total (Love God, love others as self.)

  312. A slight distance along a tangent line to the curve of this thread:

    Is it just American men who seem obsessed with boobs and boob size?
    Or is it pretty much a world wide thing?

  313. ___

    “Wartburg Flaming Tatas?”

    hmmm…

    De-verted eyes is a symptom, rather than a cure.

    huh?

    501(c)3 church has become a hazardous battle zone perhaps?

    What?

    Calvinists step inside churches on any given Sunday and many don’t plan to communicate with women at all, much less interact socially with them. For many of them, apparently, it is better to be safe rather than sorry. Furthermore, 501(c)3 church today has become such a brutal legal hazard, that many in pastoral leadership presumably have body guards, church security guards, survailence cameras, legally binding membership agreements, employee non-disclosure agreements, guaranteed income quotas, golden parachutes, agreements with local police, and crackerjack lawyers on retainer.

  314. Tatas are not all fun and games. They are either too big or too little. They inevitably become too old and too ugly. Men ‘check them out’ with disgusting frequency. Clothing off the rack is never a perfect fit around the tatas. And then there are those who get carried away with their own cleavage such that their tatas tend to fall out when the bend over.

    And mostly, any discussion of tatas would not be complete without the following:

    http://www.breastcancer.org/symptoms/understand_bc/statistics

    My tatas tried to kill me, so I had them cut off and sent first to the lab and then the incinerator. That will show them who’s boss, I guess.

    Just saying.

  315. Lydia wrote:

    I often wonder if the whole push is to create a super denomination that dominates the Christian Industrial Complex

    If this downward spiral is not halted by a genuine revival and spiritual awakening in America, Piper’s Christian hedonism will soon rule the church. When you go shopping, magnetic eyes will be watching your every move. If you join them for a season and then opt out, you will be shunned in your community … or excommunicated with the mark of the beast on your forehead.

  316. JYJames wrote:

    never spineless

    “Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and IN DANGER FROM FALSE BELIEVERS. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. BESIDES EVERYTHING ELSE, I FACE DAILY THE PRESSURE OF MY CONCERN FOR ALL THE CHURCHES.” (2 Cor 11)

    Well, I haven’t suffered a fraction of that in my life, but I know Paul’s burden for the church and have experienced the hand of false believers. If you ain’t got a spine, you won’t survive the days ahead in the American church. The devil is taking us on a ride. I praise God for a glimmer of hope here and there, but church at large is falling hook, line and sinker for popular movements and neglecting the Great Commission.

  317. @ Max:
    The 1st Estate: Clergy, united with
    the 2nd Estate: Rulers, united with
    the 4th Estate: Media – cameras

    over the 3rd Estate: RJP, the Real Jobs People or working class.

    If that’s true, is it preferable to stay out of the Religious Industrial Complex? Looking at how Jesus dealt with this, the Romans and Jewish hierarchy colluding against him, Jesus was sort of in and out of the synagogues.

  318. JYJames wrote:

    Jesus was sort of in and out of the synagogues.

    Luke used the phrase ‘as was his custom’ about Jesus’ synagogue habits.

    IMO if we are going to ‘abandon the gathering…together’ we have to site somebody other than Jesus for justification for doing that.

  319. Max wrote:

    If you ain’t got a spine, you won’t survive the days ahead in the American church. The devil is taking us on a ride. I praise God for a glimmer of hope here and there, but church at large is falling hook, line and sinker for popular movements and neglecting the Great Commission.

    That seems to be so.

  320. @ Lydia:

    I don’t want to get crazy here, but is not one mega religion prophesied as one of the issues in ‘the last days’ and have we not seen from earliest Christian times the push for just that? And do we not hear the repeated lament about there being so many protestant denominations? So now there are folks who want to include non-Christians as somehow part of this hoped for (?) amalgamation whether they know it or not, and apparently whether they want it or not.

    Now if the purveyors of that idea can just get money and politics to work together to push that agenda, well then…here we go again.

  321. okrapod wrote:

    Max wrote:
    If you ain’t got a spine, you won’t survive the days ahead in the American church. The devil is taking us on a ride. I praise God for a glimmer of hope here and there, but church at large is falling hook, line and sinker for popular movements and neglecting the Great Commission.
    That seems to be so.

    Does seem that way unless the Almighty intervenes.

  322. okrapod wrote:

    Tatas are not all fun and games. They are either too big or too little. They inevitably become too old and too ugly. Men ‘check them out’ with disgusting frequency. Clothing off the rack is never a perfect fit around the tatas. And then there are those who get carried away with their own cleavage such that their tatas tend to fall out when the bend over.
    And mostly, any discussion of tatas would not be complete without the following:
    http://www.breastcancer.org/symptoms/understand_bc/statistics

    My tatas tried to kill me, so I had them cut off and sent first to the lab and then the incinerator. That will show them who’s boss, I guess.
    Just saying.

    Yes…..women just can’t win with their tapas. Too little, too big, too cancerous.

  323. okrapod wrote:

    @ Lydia:
    I don’t want to get crazy here, but is not one mega religion prophesied as one of the issues in ‘the last days’ and have we not seen from earliest Christian times the push for just that? And do we not hear the repeated lament about there being so many protestant denominations? So now there are folks who want to include non-Christians as somehow part of this hoped for (?) amalgamation whether they know it or not, and apparently whether they want it or not.
    Now if the purveyors of that idea can just get money and politics to work together to push that agenda, well then…here we go again.

    Didn’t you know? Pastors and Popea are now experts on the economies of countries, climate change, science (age of the earth), the marital bed, etc, etc.

    Personally, I think tons of denominations are a healthy result of eschewing the “princes of the church” mentality that dominated Europe for a thousand years.

  324. @ okrapod:
    By the way, I have a Muslim friend (very moderate doesn’t even cover) who insists Yahweh and Allah are the same. Same for Jesus and Mohammad, as prophets. As long as no one is holding a gun to my head to agree or disabusing me of opportunity to pursue happiness because I don’t agree, I don’t see a big problem.

    My problem are the thought police. Like what was done to liberal UK MP Tim Ferron. It wasn’t enough he supported liberal policies on issues, he was “bad” because he might think some of them were sin, as a Christian. That is all the media focused on. Did he think such and such are sin. Not how he voted on issues.

    Thought police. (Who always end up turning on each other)

    He resigned because he said he could not be a Christian and liberal MP.

  325. @ okrapod:
    Fellowship is paramount, and a subset of human relationship. However, the question is always, at what cost and for what benefit?

  326. @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar):
    Regarding that article: Leave or Cleave.
    Cleave to what – what is the situation with the partner? And if a partner must leave, saving the lives of oneself and children, that is not cheating or adultery. Just leaving, and survival.

  327. @ Lydia:
    The pseudo expertise of a so-called leader comes up, it seems, often in the comments of various posts. It’s overreach.

    No one should park their brains at the curb when engaging in church – “keep one’s thinking cap on” – at all times.

  328. Dave A A wrote:

    It’s Bill Piper writing about John’s mum, inspired by the Song of Songs. John published it, which reminds me of the curse of Ham.

    Ewwww. There is something deeply disturbing about that “poetry.”

  329. Lydia wrote:

    Katherine Bushnell has a whole subchapter on leave and cleave found in Genesis that is interesting. Genesis communicates the opposite of how Noel positions the concept. It’s the husband who leaves and cleaves to his wife.

    You beat me to it Lyds. I was just gonna’ suggest Bushnell’s writings on the ‘leave and cleave’ thing.

  330. Muff Potter wrote:

    A slight distance along a tangent line to the curve of this thread:
    Is it just American men who seem obsessed with boobs and boob size?
    Or is it pretty much a world wide thing?

    Primarily American, maybe European.

    It’s Cultural, depending on which body parts are that culture’s Big Mating Display.

    And here it’s Big Boobs.

    1) I’ve even heard breast-feeding described as “Unnatural”, as if the only purpose of tatas is guys’ eye candy and ONLY guys’ eye candy. (Still scratching my head over that one…)

    2) Around 35 years ago, I remember seeing a National Lampoon which had two homunculus diagrams (one male and one female) in which the size of each body part was proportional to “the number of funny names for that part”. Guess which parts were the biggest?

  331. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    OH, boy. Here we go: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/will-you-cleave-and-leave-your-man By Noel – shallow, impersonal, and immature IMHO.

    I am a little confused by her article. I understand that, according to the subtitle, she has written the article to an unnamed adulteress…okay, fine. There is a place in the kingdom for that.

    However, the only “leave” she implies (because she doesn’t really discuss it in detail) is the woman leaving the husband, which she semi-illustrates from the negative – she didn’t leave ‘Johnny’ and her parents who, though distant at least at one point, never divorced. Which, as some others have pointed out, is not quite how the concept of leave and cleave is written in Genesis.

    In Genesis the editor/narrator appears to be attempting to explain a current practice (when Genesis was written/compiled) through an appeal to a historical one-time act. Men and women get married and form their own families because God made Adam and Eve and “joined” them together. In that sense, the “cleave” is similar to how Paul described Gentiles and their relationship to Abraham/Isreal in the book of Romans: the image of being ‘grafted’ in. Like an olive branch (Paul’s example) or a skin graft, the two different entities must be tied together, bound and left stable, so that they can grow into one over time.

  332. Burwell wrote:

    Men and women get married and form their own families

    – True, and against some Asian cultural practices of the young man, even after marriage, being beholden to his ancestry, in particular his mother. In other words, the Genesis verses are contrary to the practice of a young man cleaving to his family of origin rather than establishing his own family with his wife (Genesis 2:24, Matt. 19:5, Mark 10:7, Eph. 5>31).

  333. @ Burwell:
    Right, the leave in the Bible refers to leave your family of origin and then cleave to your spouse, and has nothing to do with adultery. Good observation, Burwell.

  334. @ Lydia:
    “…are now experts on the economies of countries, climate change, science (age of the earth), the marital bed, etc, etc.

    “Personally, I think tons of denominations are a healthy result of eschewing the “princes of the church” mentality that dominated Europe for a thousand years.”

    The so-called expert leaders being the pseudo-experts and their overreach in their teachings in areas that they know little or nothing about – so in the pews we need to be vigilant and mindful of what we are hearing, not parking our brains at the curb when we go into church. Feedback from the pew to the pulpit would help but the pulpit is not always open to feedback from the pew.

    In any case, your comment had resonance, relevance.

  335. JYJames wrote:

    Fellowship is paramount, and a subset of human relationship. However, the question is always, at what cost and for what benefit?

    That brings up an interesting point. You are thinking ‘fellowship’ and I am not thinking ‘fellowship’ when it comes to church. I wonder is somebody has done a study as to church satisfaction based on degrees to which one values fellowship in relation to church.

  336. @ Lydia:
    Regarding pseudo expertise, Malcolm Gladwell, who is an excellent journalist, shares a story of his own overreach.

    Galdwell studied research and presented it to an educated audience. In the audience was a scientist who had DONE the research. After the speech, the expert approached Gladwell and corrected him in several ways, on the topic of Gladwell’s own presentation. Gladwell says he learned that outsider-looking-at-research is not the same as the insider-doing-the-work. He learned to be careful in his journalism and speeches thereafter.

  337. okrapod wrote:

    You are thinking ‘fellowship’ and I am not thinking ‘fellowship’ when it comes to church.

    Church as “meeting together”, Hebrews 10:25, thus, “fellowship”?

  338. @ JYJames:

    It was said of Jesus that the went to the synagogue ‘as was his custom, and he stood up to read’ which indicated some education and some ability to read the ancient sacred language but nothing about hanging out with the guys.

    Then there is the incident where he healed the withered hand and they tried to throw him over the cliff.

    It is said of Paul that the went to synagogue as his custom was, and preached.

    Your original comment was that Jesus was in and out of synagogue; I am not seeing anything about fellowship in Jesus’ synagogue experiences which are mentioned in scripture.

    As to church as ‘fellowship’ if you mean socializing, then no I don’t see that either in the NT as to why one assembles together. Paul in his discussions talks about sharing spiritual gifts, and preaching/teaching, and mentions some of the mundane responsibilities done by deacons (widows/ orphans) but just yucking it up I do not see in scripture.

    Perhaps we are not understanding the word ‘fellowship’ the same way, but in churches today fellowship means hanging out, and I do not see in scripture anything that suggests that this is the primary or even most motivating reason to ‘go to church’.

    Also, it is most probable that your church (denom) and my church (denom) also have somewhat different ideas about what is church, so maybe that explains our conversation here.

  339. Lydia wrote:

    Thank you! I bet you are busy with Canning season, right?

    Yuh huh. Taking a break right now while my tomatoes heat up!

  340. Gram3 wrote:

    Ewwww. There is something deeply disturbing about that “poetry.”

    And more so about a son printing up that poetry by Dad about Mom for the whole plamn danet to read. All to prove Dad was human, after all. hey fellas– dad drank too much and is passed out in the tent! wait’ll you see!

  341. @ JYJames:
    Got it. Agree. And then even experts can have agendas.

    While I disagree with some of NT Wright’s conclusions, I respect his teaching because he was a bonafide Ancients Scholar before a Theologian/Pastor.

  342. A woman can test herself in this arena by how she dresses her little girl. What kind of bathing suit do you put on your little two-year-old? Is it a cute little bikini? Or do you begin from the very start to teach this little girl that there is an appropriate way to dress? Are you preparing her so that by the time she is seven, eleven, or fifteen her whole mindset is, I dress appropriately, modestly, and not to entice or flaunt?

    I can deal with discussions of modesty when they pertain to adults. But this comment is about children-7, 11, 15 years old. I worry when a grown man thinks little girls are enticing or flaunting their bodies. Is this insight into the mind of someone who blames the victim of sexual abuse-even when the victim is a young child. Or is it someone who sees children as sexual beings.

    This comment bothered me.

  343. Dave A A wrote:

    And more so about a son printing up that poetry by Dad about Mom for the whole plamn danet to read.

    I’m not familiar with this particular piece of Piper weirdness, so could you fill me in on the details of who wrote it and why? John published it, and it was written about John’s mother or about Noel? Either way, ISTM that a woman close to John Piper is being used as an object to show off the (supposed) prowess of the poet.

    If John Piper published this about his mother or his wife, then he has done a shameful thing. A very shameful thing.

  344. Burwell wrote:

    Men and women get married and form their own families because God made Adam and Eve and “joined” them together.

    The cleaving is an ongoing volitional process, I think. Sometimes it will be more difficult than others. And sometimes it will be impossible. But clinging fast to one another is the ideal. I’ve been married a long time, and we are like those complicated braided trunk trees that are grown from little saplings. At this point, we are pretty much impossible to separate except by death.

  345. @ Gram3:
    It bears repeating here that Piper’s dad was a Bob Jones trustee and evangelist. Very Fundamentalist. He grew up across the street from Bob Jones, inc.

    I am no psychologist but there are some interesting insights reading this article at DG. The childhood history lesson starts around the time his parents married. The interesting part includes his dad gone a lot as a kid, his mom was hit by a bus in Israel, his dad remarries and is distant.

    http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/evangelist-bill-piper-fundamentalist-full-of-grace-and-joy

    I did not discover until a few years back that American evangelism went through a big shift in the 1950’s. Seems Billy Graham is either blamed or hailed for it. I read a book written by a Calvinist on the division that practically positioned Graham as a heretic. I think the name of it is Evangelicslism Divided. . Seems the Calvinists and Fundamentalists had big problems with Graham. Pipers dad split with Bob Jones over it.

    His life story sounds like the “make a living from Jesus bubble” people get in and can’t get out. They know nothing else.

    It seems like John Piper merged Bob Jones and Jonathan Edwards. Maybe they aren’t that far apart at all, anyway. Not sure. But women are definitely objectified in both realms.

  346. @ Lydia:
    Thanks for that biographical info. So his dad wrote that about his mom and John Piper published it. Wow. He must really hate his mom at a deep level.

  347. Discerning snake oil theology/teaching/practice: How does it line up with…?
    – the Bible
    – scientific research
    – honest discourse, such as TWW
    – someone who is gifted by the Holy Spirit with discernment in the Body of Christ
    – historical record
    – the lifestyle of the speaker
    – civil law and the Rule of Law
    – the Common Good
    What else?

  348. @ Gram3:
    I think he disrespects her. For example, one of his favorite comp examples is how his dad was gone for weeks at a time and his mom handled everything while he was gone. But when he came home, mom stepped back and dad lead. One example was that dad picked out the table at restaurants. Why he told that over and over I don’t know. Resturant tables? Wow. What leadership.

  349. Lydia wrote:

    I did not discover until a few years back that American evangelism went through a big shift in the 1950’s. Seems Billy Graham is either blamed or hailed for it. I read a book written by a Calvinist on the division that practically positioned Graham as a heretic. I think the name of it is Evangelicslism Divided. .

    I never read the book, but I have tried to say this numerous times here on TWW. Along came BG and everything changed. It really did. For better? For worse? Both/either? But I don’t think that any one man could pull that off. It was after all ‘that time’. Halberstam wrote a book ‘The Fifties’ I think, focusing on the changes going on in the society/ politics then just before it all went so public that nobody could miss it in politics and society in general. BG just rode the wave of a larger tsunami in our culture.

    I graduated high school in 1952. Just before the revolution hit the door steps of the churches. Now think about this, this was not all that long after WW II and the massive turmoil of all that. Parts of the world crumbled, and parts of ‘religion’ took a huge hit. Even the Catholics not too long after went through a massive re-thinking of some of their most basic ideas. The War destroyed a lot of stuff, and in the rebuilding of ideas and expectations a lot of stuff looked really different when it got rebuilt.

    We are still reverberating from the massive hit that western civilization took in the middle of the twentieth century. And there are still voices asking whether we are going to make it. The problem is that we do not all see ‘making it’ as the same sort of thing, including in religion.

  350. Gram3 wrote:

    I’m not familiar with this particular piece of Piper weirdness, so could you fill me in on the details of who wrote it and why? John published it, and it was written about John’s mother or about Noel? Either way, ISTM that a woman close to John Piper is being used as an object to show off the (supposed) prowess of the poet.

    RETRACTION!
    I assumed this was about Piper’s mom, but it was his step-mother. Thing is, he didn’t spell this out. One has to read on and put Dad’s birth in 1919 and Mom’s death in 1974 together with “that a blood-earnest, soul-winner, who hammered away at the temptations of the world and the dangers of the flesh should in his sixties celebrate the body of his wife with words like these:”
    So he must really hate his Dad and Step-mother at a deep level.
    The whole eulogy really helps explain lots of Piper’s weirdness (BTW, the pic up top is priceless). No excuse, of course.
    If John thought his father was distant when he was young, he didn’t know “distant” until stepmother came into the picture:
    “The effect of my mother’s death and my father’s second marriage was profound on our relationship. It took my father one more step away from closeness to me. LaVonne was a southern lady with deep roots in family and place. In the twenty-eight years of their marriage, LaVonne never came to Minneapolis. My father came twice. Since we only saw each other once a year or so, the relationship with the new relatives was cordial but not deep. It never felt very much like family. So it felt like my father had been drawn into an intimacy that was no longer focused on the family he fathered but the new relationship he had with LaVonne.”
    It’s had to imagine Bill gave John that poem, so he must have found it going though his stuff. And then preached it to hundreds of “leaders” at his conference in the misguided attempt to prove that fundamentalists can be human, too.
    One last troubling thing– PSA illustrated by Grandpa belting Uncle Elmer:
    “The strictness of his father had some surprising side effects that were profound. He told me about one of them. It turns out that both Bill and Elmer had disobeyed their father. Elmer was the older, so his father said that he was the more responsible and that he would get the whipping for both boys. My father told me with tears in his eyes a few years ago that he could hear the belt on the backside. Though he was just a boy, he said it was one of the most vivid pictures in his life of the substitutionary atonement of Christ in our place.”
    So you see, God belted Jesus to whip us into shape. Of course, this makes Jesus out to be disobedient, just like the boy in “John Griffith, Bridge Operator” (goggle if you’ve not heard of it).

  351. I haven’t gotten close to reading all of these comments, but really, I don’t think being modest should be that complicated.

    Dress in a way that shows respect for your own body.

    If you need a rule, I think you can do a lot worse than “dress conservatively for your community”.

  352. Burwell wrote:

    Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:
    OH, boy. Here we go: http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/will-you-cleave-and-leave-your-man By Noel – shallow, impersonal, and immature IMHO.

    I am a little confused by her article. I understand that, according to the subtitle, she has written the article to an unnamed adulteress…okay, fine.

    Here’s my theory…she wrote that article to herself. At some point she realized that she was deeply unhappy in her marriage. She knew that divorce was not an option and that she was incredibly vulnerable to the temptation to have an affair. She must daily remind herself that she must not become this unnamed adulteress.

    Why do I think she wrote it to herself? Because that was my mindset when I was married to an emotionally/spiritually abusive man. I’m thankful that I finally saw the truth…divorce IS an option when your spouse has broken the marriage. There’s no sin in calling for last rites and putting the marriage aside. My life is so much better now that I am no longer living with abuse.

  353. Gail L Cain wrote:

    I can deal with discussions of modesty when they pertain to adults. But this comment is about children-7, 11, 15 years old. I worry when a grown man thinks little girls are enticing or flaunting their bodies.

    The flashing yellow light comes on: “PEDO? PEDO? PEDO?”

  354. Lydia wrote:

    Seems the Calvinists and Fundamentalists had big problems with Graham.

    Why wouldn’t they?! Billy Graham preached a “whosoever will may come” message on his evangelistic crusades, contrary to the tenets of reformed theology (unconditional election, limited atonement). Graham didn’t teach/preach subordination of women; his own daughter is a Gospel preacher … Calvinists and Fundamentalists hate that, I’m sure.

  355. Lydia wrote:

    Seems the Calvinists and Fundamentalists had big problems with Graham.

    Lydia,

    I found Ed Stetzer’s move from LifeWay to Wheaton College to be strange. When he was at LifeWay he was deeply involved with the New Calvinist movement, even though he was elusive on his exact theological leaning. He is now Executive Director of the Billy Graham Center for Evangelism at Wheaton! Leaping from mixing with the New Calvinists in his role at LifeWay to his current position just doesn’t fit … there’s nothing evangelistic about New Calvinism. I have noticed that he has dropped off the radar screen in the reformed blogosphere since moving to Wheaton. Some of these guys play on both sides of the fence I suppose.

  356. Pingback: Wednesday Link List | Thinking Out Loud UNITED STATES

  357. @ Max:
    I have my theories about Setzer. He was THE supposed church planting expert at LifeWay. He milked that one good. Smart to get out right before the questions and demands for stats to be transparent became louder and louder. So what is the result from the 60 million Ezell spent on planting YRR churches?

  358. Lydia wrote:

    So what is the result from the 60 million Ezell spent on planting YRR churches?

    Answer: a nationwide network of new reformers positioned to change the next generation of SBC belief and practice. Ezell is using that money to plant 1,000 new YRR churches per year, targeting Generation Xers and Millennials. Colleagues of the YRR church planters are wreaking havoc in their takeover of traditional SBC churches; thus, a two-front attack on SBC life.

  359. emily honey wrote:

    Generally, you seem to exist to them as a projection and extension of their own personal thoughts and issues without them ever getting to know you as an equal and individual.

    I realize I’m really late to this conversation and its probably moved on, but I was reading this post on modesty that got a lot of comments…

    One guy said he was raised in this culture and the thing he thought about what how if you run away from women you find attractive, you are never able to get to know them enough to know if they are or are NOT a decent person. You are never able to think of them as an individual with good or bad in them. I just thought that was interesting. (the whole thread was interesting, but sometimes maddening)

  360. Paul D. wrote:

    and (3) It’s the woman’s fault for trying to look so attractive.

    This is something else that popped up in another thread I read.

    Why is trying to look well a bad thing? Men do it too! I mean, maybe not Piper, but regular men…

  361. Great article! I haven’t read any of the comment thread, therefore I don’t know of the content discussed.

    What I do know is that I listened to Piper for several years following leaving a highly authoritarian abusive church. I hopped from one abusive religious system to the next by absorbing more abusive doctrine. It took me some time to see through the religious fog concerning wolves in sheep’s clothing, finally freeing myself from Piper’s dangerous theology or lack thereof.

    My conclusion is this (after reading the Gospel’s for myself); any pastor man, or woman for that matter, who focuses their theology on sex, sex, and more sex, is but a dried up branch on the vine, who knows not our Eternal Savior, Jesus, the living Christ, but prowls around like an imposter, desiring the godhood for themselves in luring people to follow and worship them, instead of Jesus. Jesus did say, “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” With His Words in mind, exactly what kind of fruits is Piper promoting when he constantly speaks about sex, sex, and more sex? Is his perverted mind focused on sex, and not the true Gospel? Did Jesus speak of sex constantly? Seriously?

    I believe Piper is so worried about the exterior of people, that he may be forgetting that Jesus sees the heart, mind and soul of every man/woman. Personally, I’m not worried or concerned about the woman weight lifter, or the woman down the road with a great figure that looks fashionably great.

    BUT, I am concerned with the man who promotes his form of false Christianity disguising himself as an angel of light. He loves to tell others how to live and yet, his very own house isn’t in order, so to speak.

    Dear John Piper, please read the Gospels and take notes on how Jesus treated women, especially those who were accused, persecuted, shunned, and hated by the religious leaders of His day. And please, quit blaming women for the fall of all of mankind. Please, just quit.

  362. Max wrote:

    Why wouldn’t they?! Billy Graham preached a “whosoever will may come” message on his evangelistic crusades, contrary to the tenets of reformed theology (unconditional election, limited atonement). Graham didn’t teach/preach subordination of women; his own daughter is a Gospel preacher … Calvinists and Fundamentalists hate that, I’m sure.

    The prof who grew up IFB and who wrote a post on TWW once made the point about racial integration of the crusades, saying if I remember correctly that his was the/a big issue. Where and when I was the big issue was that he practiced ecumenism, which was a big no no. And there were some who said that his political connections were just flat wrong for a preacher of the gospel besides being evidence for suspicion as to his motives.

    ‘Women’ were not all that big an issue for SBC in that era, though it might have been for IFB. And, the SBC and the IFB were all preaching whosoever will at the time.

    Not only that, there was a lot of anti-catholicism in that day and BG ‘crossed a line’ in his dealings with catholics in the eyes of some. And not just catholicism, he may have even ‘shared the platform’ with people who might be baptizing babies-held to be a clear denial of the gospel by some-or thus I heard back in the day.

    It is a lot more complicated than if one just looks at today’s issues and tries to apply them in retrospect to a prior era.

    I think this is important because ‘issues’ do not just go away, but rather the hierarchical importance of issues shifts. If we forget the issues of a prior decades we may miss some clues about today’s issues.

  363. Karen wrote:

    My conclusion is this (after reading the Gospel’s for myself); any pastor man, or woman for that matter, who focuses their theology on sex, sex, and more sex, is but a dried up branch on the vine, who knows not our Eternal Savior, Jesus, the living Christ…

    My conclusion (without the Christianese jargon) is that we’re getting an unwanted look into the “pastor man”s own sexual obsession and kinks.

    I long ago concluded that Uber-Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just with different surface symptoms.

    I fully expect the Pied Piper to one day hit critical mass and melt down into obvious delusion and/or a big and KINKY sex scandal.

  364. How old is Piper? I could sympathize if he were in his early twenties, but at some point the libido weakens and I’d expect he would stop thinking about sex so much.

    For that matter, whatever happened to self-control? Paul mentioned it as one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Committing adultery takes effort, after all, no matter how immodest the other person is. We can’t expect to live without temptation so we need to be able to resist it.

  365. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    My conclusion (without the Christianese jargon) is that we’re getting an unwanted look into the “pastor man”s own sexual obsession and kinks.

    I think that is the case often enough to be creepy!

    I have a question about dressing “in such a way that [we] draw men’s attention towards [our] eyes”…is someone confused about where eyes are to the point where I need to point it out? How stupid are men in Pipers world, actually? Should we wear a shirt with an arrow that says ‘hey man, eyes up here’? Of all the dumb things they say, that’s one of the dumber ones.

  366. Robert M wrote:

    How old is Piper? I could sympathize if he were in his early twenties, but at some point the libido weakens and I’d expect he would stop thinking about sex so much.

    Never underestimate the obsession potential of “Thou Shalt Not” Forbidden Fruit.
    Especially when you factor in probable Arrested Development.

    (Many postings ago, someone claimed they could probably figure the exact age that Got Hard’s sexual development arrested at. Anyone willing to do the same for the Pied Piper?)

  367. Lea wrote:

    I have a question about dressing “in such a way that [we] draw men’s attention towards [our] eyes”…is someone confused about where eyes are to the point where I need to point it out?

    Or, we could tell the young men to look at a woman’s face when talking to her, because looking at her breasts is creepy and rude.

    I don’t know about anyone else, but one thing that can guarantee I’ll look at a woman’s face is if her skirt is too short or her neckline is too low.

  368. Tree wrote:

    He seemed to think that men commit adultery only because a woman (besides his wife) is attractive and available and dressed revealingly.

    That doesn’t explain relationships that start with conversations online, without even a picture. Or relationships where people actively seek out women such as the Ashley Madison thing. Or many other things.

    His theory is wrong.

  369. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Why do they (not just Piper) rant and rail about women being modest, but never say a word about men??? Women have eyes to see with, too!

    I think they’re (Piper, Baucham, Grudem, Burk…et al) seriously terrified of women as something other than what they believe to be strict ‘Biblical’ roles which must be applied straight across the board, based solely on plumbing received at birth. Woman is a breeding vessel for the sperm-spewer (man), she’s a stationary egg-carrier, wandering eyes do not become her ‘Biblical’ place in the scheme of things.

  370. @Headless Unicorn Guy

    I agree with you one hundred per cent and believe you are spot on.

    Christianese jargon: “Out of the mouth, the heart speaks.” Applying this principle to John Piper and others who promote the gospel of sex, sex, and women’s body parts destroying the Christian man’s(?) faith, I too, conclude that sex consumes the heart and mind of Piper.

    I do not believe he values women as the Jesus of our Bibles did and still does, therefore I believe he promotes another Gospel, not the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. And I am thankful, so incredibly grateful, to be set free from this man’s false theology. Piper places such heavy burdens upon women in particular and lightens up the standards towards his own gender.

  371. @ Law Prof:
    It’s a tweet that links to DG in what appears to mimic (imitate) The Screwtape Letters: (from wikipedia)

    “The Screwtape Letters … by C. S. Lewis, … written in a satirical, epistolary style, … fictional in format …, is a series of letters from a senior Demon Screwtape to his nephew Wormwood, a Junior Tempter. The uncle’s mentorship pertains to the nephew’s responsibility in securing the damnation of a British man known only as “the Patient”.

  372. JYJames wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    It’s a tweet that links to DG in what appears to mimic (imitate) The Screwtape Letters: (from wikipedia)
    “The Screwtape Letters … by C. S. Lewis, … written in a satirical, epistolary style, … fictional in format …, is a series of letters from a senior Demon Screwtape to his nephew Wormwood, a Junior Tempter. The uncle’s mentorship pertains to the nephew’s responsibility in securing the damnation of a British man known only as “the Patient”.

    Interesting. It’s been 20 years since I’ve read the Screwtape Letters, don’t recall reading anything like that, but of course, the memory fades over the years.

  373. JYJames wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    It’s a tweet that links to DG in what appears to mimic (imitate) The Screwtape Letters

    But without the context of the Screwtape Letters, it’s just meaningless word salad in isolation.

  374. @ Law Prof:
    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Imitation.
    Mentioned earlier, for example, Piper followed Mel Gibson’s film, “The Passion”, with a book on the same theme. The book didn’t succeed, though following a trend.

    (It has been said that Satan is the Great Imitator. Originality comes from God.)

  375. I stumbled across a thoughtful blog piece on the marriage relationship that stands in stark contrast to Piper’s wordily sterile articles on the same topic. This was about finding your “soul mate”, the gist of which is that you just don’t stumble into it and live happily ever after, you become a soul mate by working to be one. I will try to post the link. https://somethingmoresolid.wordpress.com/2017/07/13/soul-mates-relationships/comment-page-1/#comment-12

  376. Glad you liked it. (I’ve no idea who he is in real life.)

    Part 2 had many more nuggets of truth, such as not thinking that someone (your”soul mate”) will complete you, or you them. Here is another gem, pertinent to TWW’s primary subject matter:
    “You are a person, and not a thing to be used. There does come a time to discern whether what you are doing is being patient or enabling a situation to perpetuate itself. If there is physical abuse to you or to your loved ones, that time is now. Seek protection, and get out. You are not an object of abuse, you are a person. You have a voice.”

  377. Tree wrote:

    There does come a time to discern whether what you are doing is being patient or enabling a situation to perpetuate itself.

    Yes. And this isn’t always easy to figure out. Not even speaking of abuse, just general relationships.

  378. Steve wrote:

    Serious question: What does this mean?

    https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/884412276006154240

    More and more I am concluding that Piper, or whoever tweets under his account, uses a random word generator of some sort to compose his esoteric and nonsensical theological ‘droppings’.

    Or, perhaps he believes he is being poetic… However, constipated passions is meaningless in a theological context – but it would be an awesome band name.

  379. Burwell wrote:

    Or, perhaps he believes he is being poetic…

    People who won’t speak plainly are sometimes doing it so they can hide what they really mean. I don’t trust them.

    That Wilson guy will say dumb things and then go back and say you just didn’t understand when they get called out. IT’s a game.

  380. Lea wrote:

    That Wilson guy will say dumb things and then go back and say you just didn’t understand when they get called out. IT’s a game.

    Lea, and other Wartburgers (is that correct, or am I thinking of Wahlburgers – je ne sais pas), have you visited the website The Truth About Moscow (http://www.moscowid.net/)? It is a site dedicated to exposing the lies and abuses of Douglas Wilson. The site is well chronicled and archived,especially when it comes to the Steve Sitler and Jamin Wight abuses and Wilson’s subsequent cover-ups, and reminds me of “Wenatchee the Hatchet”, only with better graphics.

    It appears that while Wilson thinks of himself as a Reformed thinker and tough talking wordsmith, but in reality he is an overweight, alcoholic, abusive, paedophile-excusing dictator who has a penchant for italics, bowlers and smashing ceramic pots with Louisville sluggers.

    And I was trying to be kind in my description.

  381. Burwell wrote:

    Steve wrote:
    Serious question: What does this mean?
    https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/884412276006154240
    More and more I am concluding that Piper, or whoever tweets under his account, uses a random word generator of some sort to compose his esoteric and nonsensical theological ‘droppings’.
    Or, perhaps he believes he is being poetic… However, constipated passions is meaningless in a theological context – but it would be an awesome band name.

    I stand corrected – those were NOT Piper’s words but rather a quote from the article that Piper was tweeting. The article, an elementary attempt at imitating The Screwtape Letters, was written by a graduate of Bethel College AND Seminary (Piper’s old haunts) who is the content strategist for desiringGod.org.

    I tried to read the entire post but decided not to “waste my life” on such purile attempts at cleverness and theological weight but in reality only amount to extended renderings of confirmation bias, as the sermons and churches most feared by “Wormwood” are the sermons and churches that most closely resemble Piper’s and other Neo-Cal leaders. Imagine that.

    That said, I still think “constipated passions” is an excellent band name.

  382. @ Burwell:

    i see john piper as self-perceiving as a prophet, believing that he can’t help but offer up divinely-inspired wordage. he see himself as beyond creative discipline — indeed, subduing words with skill would taint what comes from his direct connection with God (I suspect he’s thinking).

    he writes what seems to ‘come to him’ — even if the source is his own internal word generator — and believes God is speaking through him. The more odd the more evidence of its supposed divine origins, both in his mind and in the minds of his followers.

    but i suppose this is old news.

  383. @Dee,

    I know that another thread has Luther quotes but today I ran across one by Dolly Parton which I believe fits well here:

    I was the first woman to burn my bra – it took the fire department four days to put it out.

  384. @ Burwell:
    My favorite dolly quote was ‘I’m not offended by all the dumb blonde jokes because I know I’m not dumb… and I also know that I’m not blonde. – Dolly Parton’

  385. elastigirl wrote:

    believing that he can’t help but offer up divinely-inspired wordage

    I think he thinks he’s doing something clever by using words that mean one thing, to say something completely different. And putting sentences together in odd ways that can’t be properly diagramed and don’t make sense.

    In actuality, it just makes him sound like he doesn’t know what words mean to began with and how to construct a sentence.

  386. Burwell wrote:

    paedophile-excusing

    Interesting term.

    In an overview or review of a venue or a leadership:

    – Are they pedophile-excusing? Evidence or examples, on record? If so, the venue doesn’t qualify as a safe place for families, youth.

  387. I too am an RN who has “seen it all.” 40 years ago I was a most naïve young student nurse as I changed the sheets for my young male patient. My efforts to “smooth” the top sheet down were met with increasing resistance as it kept popping back up in a certain area. Perhaps the nurse in me, but I never understood lusting after body parts.

    I find my husband incredibly attractive when he is funny and kind and compassionate. By Piper’s logic, I should avoid being around all men with a sense of humor!

  388. Nancy2 (aka Kevlar) wrote:

    Why do they (not just Piper) rant and rail about women being modest, but never say a word about men??? Women have eyes to see with, too!

    Sadly, there aren’t many men or women who are even aware this is a thing, even though it clearly exists if you look up the comments on any male model’s social media page. It’s a taboo subject that I’ve brought to attention lately in Christian circles because I myself have always struggled greatly with fixating on attractive guys, but there are no resources for this. Even the porn sites that are geared toward recovering women seem to only think we can get addicted to porn because of abuse. I was never addicted to porn out of abuse; I was a horny teenager who wanted to look at men’s bodies. Even now, I’m married to a handsome stud, and I can’t stand it that my eyes still wander to *other* handsome studs, as well. One athlete in particular caused me to stumble when he started modeling a couple of years ago (including au naturel). Saw the comments women left on his fan page, and I found out I wasn’t the only one…

    I wonder how much more frequent this is among women than people realize.

  389. At a SG celebration many years ago, Piper was a guest speaker and he talked about his personal life as a teenager. It was disturbing. I never liked him after that. Also, it doesn’t quite add up.

  390. dee wrote:

    Joy
    What did he say?

    I second that.
    And if anyone here has a psych background, feel free two weigh in with a rough analysis.

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