A Moving Reconciliation Between Alex and Paul Grenier and Their Parents, Bob and Gayle Grenier

Christian faith is… basically about love and being loved and reconciliation. These things are so important, they're foundational and they can transform individuals, families. Philip Yancey link

1st batch 2017
New life in my bluebird family.

TWW and the Greniers

Over the last couple of months, TWW has been contacted by members of the Robert Grenier family, alerting us to their full reconciliation as a family. We were asked by all involved family members to scrub our posts on the matter due to this fantastic development. At first we were hesitant to do so, knowing that a lawsuit had been brought against the sons in this story. We wondered if they were being subjected to undue pressure. 

However, that does not appear to be the case. This seems to be a true and heartfelt reconciliation. I have been communicating with the dad, Pastor Bob Grenier, over the last couple of weeks and have decided to take this at face value. We had numerous conversations with Alex and Paul Grenier as well as Tim Taylor when we wrote their original stories. We have also heard directly from Alex regarding this current development.

We will be removing these stories from our site in the coming days as we revamp the blog. Here is a link to those stories but they will go dead @ 4/16. If you choose to read the stories, please read them in the light of this reconciliation. My understanding is that the Phoenix Preacher has also scrubbed the posts from his site. He had followed this story very carefully.

TWW has not been subjected to any legal threats in order to make us remove the posts or for anything else. (Really and truly). Our goal on this blog is to support those whose stories we have told and that is what we are doing here. My exchanges with Bob Grenier have been nothing but respectful.

We want them to tell the story in their own words. I think you will find this quite moving.

Bob Grenier

I asked him if there was anything he would like me to convey to our readers. Here is what he emphasized to me.

Yes, we are reconciled. The lawsuit was dismissed without any conditions. All  accusations have been withdrawn. Both Alex and Paul have apologized for what they did. And our family is back together again.

Focus on the Family is considering an interview. CSN is going to run this (ed. note-the video below) on 450 radio stations, and a number of other radio stations will be airing a ready made program of the audio. Two TV stations in Denver will be running this as well.

Paul's Letter of Apology/Recantation


Begin letter

Dear Pastor/Wives/Assistants/Elders/and Workers.

Through all of my terrible choices, hurtful words and hateful actions, my parents never stopped praying for me. They never stopped loving me. They always prayed fervently that God would bring change in my life. Gayle and Bob Grenier never stopped believing God's work is done in a person's life. As a young child, growing up in Calvary Chapel, I often remember my Mother saying that Pastor Chuck would preach, "Prayer doesn't change God's mind or God's purpose, prayer does change something – it changes us." Those words could not be truer in my own life today.

My Mother and Father never gave up on me. I hurt not just my own family, I hurt the family of Calvary Chapel as a whole. With deep respect, I hope that you accept my apology and I humbly ask that you allow me to show you with my actions and not words, my deep regret, and repentance for the sin and damage that I caused. My Father, Bob Grenier, was able to forgive me for the terrible and false accusations that I made against him molesting me and being a child abuser. I don't know how my Dad found it in himself to forgive me. But he must have dug deep inside to do it. And he has shown me forgiveness, unconditionally.

My, Mother, Gayle, forgave me with open arms and with a gentle heart. To know my Mother is to love her. In the very darkest of times for their own congregation, they prayed for me. This is so very true to the founding principle of God's grace being bigger than any of us. This is what Pastor Chuck and Kay believed when God called them to start their ministry so many years ago. Many of you may not know, that my Mother became a Christian when Pastor Chuck and Kay first started their ministry when she was a teenager. Many times as a child I have heard her recount them meeting with all of the hippies and outcasts under the tent. She always spoke to me of how gracious Pastor Chuck and Kay were toward those that needed it the most. Those who were lost and were sinners.

I have learned that forgiveness and reconciliation is an incredibly generous thing. Especially, when you really screwed up. For me, this is not an issue of wants vs. needs. It's an issue of wants vs. priorities. And my priority is to try and right the wrongs I made. I believe after all of that I have experienced the only way to do that is, to be honest, and transparent and call it for what it is. The fact is I am a deeply flawed person, that lied because I was angry. And that anger only grew and hurt so many others. And I can tell you today at almost 36 years old, that being angry and trying to hurt people, only hurts you. You can't hurt God. He will only keep loving you.

I am grateful that I have a family and friends that have been Christ-like and forgiven me. I won't ever forget that kindness.

I hope if any of you feel that you have made a mistake or feel it is impossible to rectify a relationship that has been destroyed by your own mistakes, that within Calvary Chapel, you are surrounded by a family that loves you and will forgive you unconditionally. I know this to be true because I watched Pastor Chuck and Kay practice this their entire lives. And I've also watched my Mother and Father strive to do the same. And I am so very grateful that God's grace is still at work in their lives and in Calvary Chapel as a whole. And also in all of your lives. A good friend of mine, Millie, recently reminded me that God's work is never done in our lives.

Humbly,
Paul Grenier

End Letter


Alex's Apology and Recantation in Front of the Church and His Parents

Please take the time to watch this video. It is quite moving.

Reconciliation of a Family from Calvary Chapel Magazine on Vimeo.

Tim Taylor's Retraction


An settlement has been reached between Tim and The Grenier Family. Here is his statement.

Begin statement

“I hereby retract any statements made by me in my prior posts on this and other websites and the verbal statements I have made concerning Bob and Gayle Grenier in the past. I specifically retract any statements made by me that Bob Grenier engaged in any improper and/or illegal activities including stealing from the church or any other entities or individuals. I also specifically retract any statements made by me stating that Bob Grenier committed child abuse or molested his son. I regret making the statements I have made about Bob and Gayle Grenier and ask for their forgiveness.”

End statement


We would ask our readers to be sensitive to this situation as they comment.


Comments

A Moving Reconciliation Between Alex and Paul Grenier and Their Parents, Bob and Gayle Grenier — 370 Comments

  1. What a Easter time this family will celebrate. They celebrate the resurrection of Christ and the reconciliation of their family. Truly only God can do this. We need to here more good news like this. I’m sure the parents oftentimes felt like giving up, but they didn’t. God Bless this family abundantly is my prayer.

  2. I think it is, fundamentally, great that this family feud is over…… Christainity, at its core is about forgiveness.
    However, I am still concerned about all of the other “issues” that were discussed/exposed by Alex on his blog. To me, the core issue is the lack of structural accountability in the Calvary Chapel franchises. I was shocked when i learned from Alex’s Blog, about the “Moses model”, and then how many of the other “mega” churches out there have no real accountability with the pewpeons.
    Alex’s blog lead me to the WW, which i will always be thankful for.

  3. I’m probably just a too cynical, ex pastors wife, ex-church member who’s Done with church….and not totally sure yet about God….

    But, this seems a little….I don’t know…off….just not buying it. Maybe it’s too quick, the video looks too rehearsed and pat.

    What about the underlying issues that he had with his parents over a decade ago that led him into believing what he did about his parents.

    This seems too like the confusion many people fall in to in the Forgiveness vs Forgetting problem.

    We can forgive but we may still have to suffer the consequences of our actions; being christian does not absolve us from either responsibility for actions or the hard work of examining and repairing families.

    I think they probably have forgiven each other to the extent that it is possible in the short term.

    I don’t think things are “All Better” though…

  4. Given what I’ve read about Calvary Chapel, I would never set foot in one of those churches. With the Grenier family, I don’t know who was lying and who was telling the truth. I suspect the truth is really somewhere in the middle. But this story ……. what the Greniers have said …….. this, I hope is true.

  5. OK, I’m confused. Are Alex and Paul saying that their parents never did the things they were accused of? Recanting accusations is just another way of saying “I lied.”

  6. I hate to see honest articles being scrubbed for any reason. It’s always possible to add a line or two referring the reader to this entry, for example, but deleting them entirely seems a little off somehow.

  7. I have not removed my posts. A few years ago formed a team to draw social media attention to this story: #whowouldJesussue

    I am not sure that I am going to remove the posts because they are a record of history. We cannot rewrite history. The blog posts happened, Alex and Tim did speak out against his Bob. What purpose does it serve in removing the old posts (if I post updates on each post)? What about Tina’s story and the many others?

    Bob has been e-mailing me and wants to connect. I need to wait until I have a decent chunk of time before calling him back.

    My issue is this: there are many people who were hurt at CC Visalia. I read and posted some of the personal stories. This goes beyond Alex and his parents. Why is there silence on those other issues?

    As far as Alex and his parents are concerned, I’m thrilled for him that they have reconciled. I remember when my dad finally apologized to me for the abuse I incurred by him. It immediately erased the bad feelings I had for him. It was almost magical. I had an overpowering sense of love for him. It was the best gift ever. Sadly, he died a few months later. So, that part, I get. I’m just not ready to pull the posts yet.

  8. So they completely made up stories of abuse and molestation, not as suggestable children, but as adults? I don’t believe it. Don’t. Believe. It. Something is amiss. Terribly amiss, and I’d suggest you reconsider, Dee and Deb.

  9. @ Law Prof:
    I can understand what you are saying. But, did you watch Alex’s story? He was the one who first approached me about removing our post. He stressed that he has reconciled. Since I consider the victims the ones in control of their narratives, that is what convinced me.

    We have a number of stories that we have not published at the request of the victims even when we believe that the story has merit. We always tell the victims that we will not post anything without their full approval. Sometimes it is frustrating, knowing a story that should be told to the community but needing to respect those who have been hurt.

    That was the decision here.The victim requested this of us. And it boiled down to that.

    Let me tell you about another story we did not remove. One of our posts dealt with a pastor who had to step down after a long time affair. We heard from him a number of months later, asking us to remove the post because it was difficult for him as he applied for jobs.

    I asked him a question. How is your family doing? To me, they were the victims here. He refused to answer me. The post stayed up and is still up.

    By removing the post dealing with this particular situation, I am not stating that I believe anything about the theology or the state of affairs at Calvary s a church. I am dealing directly with the family, including the victims in this story.

    Trust me, I pondered this for a long time. As you know, I am not one to run from difficulty and I am not afraid to stand my ground. This seemed the right thing to do.

  10. I am very happy for Alex and his parents and hope it all works out.

    I have never told this story before so I am posting this under assumed name, everybody involved in the situation has passed. I was there with all of them when they were sick and close to or when they died. My sister had some very hard problems as a child. My two older siblings had horrible drug problems, they started in junior high back in the early 70’s and struggled with substance abuse until they died. My brother died quite awhile ago and my sister about ten years ago. I helped raise her son for almost all of his life.

    I still remember the day my mother asked me to help because my sister took off, it was all she could do at the time and I never held any anger towards her just frustration. My nephew is now in his mid 30’s has a great job a wife and a little daughter. He always said I was there for him, and my mother once told me I never let her down. To be honest I never said no. I was there for his entire life and I never let him down.

    My sister shared some hard stuff about my father and older brother, it was a bit graphic, long term and she was always consistent in her story and did not change it even almost on her death bed. I sort of remember some things and have tried to piece some of it together because what she said happened to her has always bothered me. First that I did not stop it and second that I could not take the pain away or find that reconciliation for my mother, father, and sister that I found with all of them before they passed. I have always held this stuff tight to the chest because I don’t have “facts” and iron clad proof and I also understand I am viewing this through many decades of pain, frustration and convoluted understanding/history. But it is draining and has affected me deeply.

    As the youngest of four, I was always the one at home, much of the anger and rage was directed at me because I was the only kid around all the time. I also had the opportunity to see the reasons my father expressed some of his rage and to reconcile with him. But his death as was my sisters was not easy at all, it was very long extremely painful and there was no mercy at all and prayer was basically useless in any “practical” way though it was tremendous in the more important aspects of life if that makes sense.

    I tried and I mean that to reach out to the local faith community and it was not helpful at all, I could list the litany of charges leveled against me from wanting attention, showing too much grief, manipulating, deceiving, asking for too many prayers, bothering people, and the most painful, hating God. After my family members death then came the “they went to hell because you did not witness to them good enough, their blood is on your soul, you don’t have a soul, etc. I cannot tell you how frustrating it was with just some of the events as a kid that I do clearly remember, cops beating down the door ripping the house apart, threatening us etc. The searches of cars, home, etc. The terror of being arrested even if you did not do anything etc. Being like I am I made an effort to get to know police and understand their side so I reconciled with that group as well because it was the right thing to do.

    There was zero help from faith community groups that I was deeply involved in, they might listen for five minutes then the problem better be solved and you move on. I mean actually five minutes. I don’t know if what my sister said was true, I don’t know if it was partly true or was in a mixture of true and not accurate recollections etc. I do know it affected her and me deeply. It is also true that I never had any help and any encouragement from the local faith groups I was in. Some if not much of that was my fault or no one’s fault because people talk past each other. I do know that I took decades to get to know my father better than the other kids and to be there before he died and have him tell me he loved us kids and basically he was sorry, I went back into his past to understand his war years and how it affected him because I felt he was worth it.

    I don’t post to many “facts” as in names etc because I am truly not sure, I can’t believe my sister would make this up and stick by it all her life even before she died. She was never that manipulative where things like that were concerned. She was also quick to take responsibility for things she did wrong and she did pay her price to society in spades. This is the most I have ever shared concerning this event. I hope it helps some people, it did me to say it.

  11. dee wrote:

    @ Law Prof:
    I can understand what you are saying. But, did you watch Alex’s story? He was the one who first approached me about removing our post. He stressed that he has reconciled. Since I consider the victims the ones in control of their narratives, that is what convinced me.
    We have a number of stories that we have not published at the request of the victims even when we believe that the story has merit. We always tell the victims that we will not post anything without their full approval. Sometimes it is frustrating, knowing a story that should be told to the community but needing to respect those who have been hurt.
    That was the decision here.The victim requested this of us. And it boiled down to that.
    Let me tell you about another story we did not remove. One of our posts dealt with a pastor who had to step down after a long time affair. We heard from him a number of months later, asking us to remove the post because it was difficult for him as he applied for jobs.
    I asked him a question. How is your family doing? To me, they were the victims here. He refused to answer me. The post stayed up and is still up.
    By removing the post dealing with this particular situation, I am not stating that I believe anything about the theology or the state of affairs at Calvary s a church. I am dealing directly with the family, including the victims in this story.
    Trust me, I pondered this for a long time. As you know, I am not one to run from difficulty and I am not afraid to stand my ground. This seemed the right thing to do.

    It’s not something I know, Dee, have no personal knowledge of this situation and cannot say on a spiritual level “Thus saith the Lord”. It’s just a gut instinct based on years in my profession hearing a whole lot of nonsense parading on stilts and in my Christian experience unfortunately being involved in a number of cultic Christian churches (including, in the 1980s, Calvary Chapel) that is setting off alarms. In my experience, we don’t know if the alleged victim is truly in control of the narrative and the situation even at this point, such is the nature of abuse and the long term effects, and in this case, my spidey senses are absolutely on tilt. Lord forgive me if my instincts are wrong..

  12. Persephone wrote:

    I hate to see honest articles being scrubbed for any reason. It’s always possible to add a line or two referring the reader to this entry, for example, but deleting them entirely seems a little off somehow.

    Yes. I am with you. Journalists don’t do this. They just update the record.

  13. I just read the story. Law prof I have to agree with you something is sketchy here. Everything was way to detailed by Alex and his brothers. There were witnesses everything is laid out in specifics. Although someone could make it up usually someone lying wouldnt give so much detail as it is difficult to keep up with a basic story. Not to mention it seems odd that siblings would lie about something like this together. I wouldn’t pull this story so quickly. Reconciliation is great however let’s see if the words he just stated are met with actions. Just my opinion doesn’t mean much@ Law Prof:

  14. Ok, I read the historical posts. Ummm. We were all convinced of the veracity of the accusations. Very convinced, as in this guys kids were gushing in the comments how wonderful all the support was convinced.

    The church itself appears to have a poor governance model (Moses model). I visited the website of the church. Elder run – check, Cult of personality pastor – check.

    So either the kids lied or the parents lied or the whole thing is a con or something.

    Usually I get TWW but not this time.

    I think “not my circus, not my monkeys” applies best.

  15. Agree with Law Prof on this…..sticking by my gut feeling here as I posted above. Glad I’m not the only one with reservations on this.

  16. Law Prof wrote:

    So they completely made up stories of abuse and molestation, not as suggestable children, but as adults?

    I’m confused too Law Prof. Alex used to hose down Newnham’s blog (Phoenix Preacher) like an OH-6’s mini-gun over on the Nam’. And now everything’s peachy?

  17. Why scrub the stories if everybody is one big happy family now? I don’t get it…
    I used to be a part of a Calvary Chapel church. I did not experience gross abuse there, although I am much happier where I am now. That being said, the “Moses Model” could not be better for an abuser.

  18. Persephone wrote:

    I hate to see honest articles being scrubbed for any reason. It’s always possible to add a line or two referring the reader to this entry, for example, but deleting them entirely seems a little off somehow.

    I saved them on The Wayback Machine’s website.

    Having spent years working in law, I’m not buying it all either.

  19. Molly245 wrote:

    Agree with Law Prof on this…..sticking by my gut feeling here as I posted above. Glad I’m not the only one with reservations on this.

    Count me in with the strong reservations group. Something’s up.

    I too have spent years working in law.

    I saved the TWW articles tonight on The Wayback Machine.

  20. Loren Haas wrote:

    Why scrub the stories if everybody is one big happy family now? I don’t get it…
    I used to be a part of a Calvary Chapel church. I did not experience gross abuse there, although I am much happier where I am now. That being said, the “Moses Model” could not be better for an abuser.

    I saved all of the links to the articles over on The Wayback Machine website so that they are not entirely scrubbed…just in case anything changes.

  21. I read the articles about the original lawsuit, and the accusations of the sons against their father, and I just cannot believe that all of it was a big lie. Those three brothers lied? What about the witnesses who knew about the abuse? A lie? What about the pastor who spoke of Bob’s confession of his violent outburst toward his son Geoff? Was that a lie? What about the detailed accounts of the son’s (Paul, I think) abuse in the shower with his father? All lies? So many lies by so many people concocted for what?

    In the end, this reconciliation seems suspect to me. I saw the video and I kept wondering what the real story is.

  22. *Let me add that I truly want to believe this positive account of reconciliation. I would like nothing more than to believe that all is forgiven and they are moving on in peace and forgiveness. However, things just don’t add up. Something is amiss, in my opinion.

  23. I don’t post often, but read here a lot. Doesn’t ring my joyful bells, more the alarm bells. I would LOVE to think reconciliation and forgiveness we’re going hand in hand here, but I’ve been a victim too. Heard all sorts of apologies and reasons why things happened.
    Genuinely forgave, and entered back into communication…sure enough, it starts again, and has never really stopped.
    The person in question is an older male relative. I was told something my father in law said to my husband; just because a person is older, it does not mean they are nice! Ain’t that the out and out truth.
    Something doesn’t feel right, too glib and scripted, three sons, and others knew of the abuse? There’s something behind the scenes we have just seen acted out, maybe time will reveal what. Truth or manipulation.

  24. Two off-topic announcements:

    *For those wishing to buy clothing or shoes for Billy who is in high school in Texas and growing fast, a list of his sizes and needs can be found on the Open Discussion thread.
    (Dee previously wrote about Billy and his mom Shauna and what their church did to them.
    Shauna is a single parent with a part-time job at a grocery store. She needs help providing these necessities for her son. Thank you.)

    You can email Deb here for Shauna and Billy’s mailing address to ship your purchases to them. Deb’s email is at the top of the page under the Contact section and I also posted it on the Open Discussion thread.

    *Prayer Requests

    There are many prayer requests, including quite serious issues in Wartburgers’ lives,
    posted on this past week’s E-Church. If you are a praying person, please look at those prayer requests and pray for those people.

    Thank you.

  25. May I share my “2 cents” on this event?

    Long time reader (rare poster) of both PP and TWW. I have witnessed from afar, the pained expressions of bitterness and cynicism from Alex for close to 10 years on PP, and observed Michael consistently and most patiently deflecting outcries against Alex’s unorthodox, faith challenging semi-heretical musings. Many folks simply chose to ignore Alex’s provocative statements (under his various pseudonyms), and dismissively “wrote him off” as not worthy of their time or serious contemplation, beseeching Michael to judiciously moderate or ban him permanently.

    I believe the Lord has allowed a veil to have been drawn back and lifted away from all perspectives, revealing the painful wounds that inspired his frequently disturbing and abrasive comments within these online faith communities.

    I strongly believe that Michael’s spirit led convictions, rightly compelled him to patiently lavish extraordinary grace and minister healing in support of a wounded brother, and well understood the danger of inflicting yet more harm to a fragile soul, by abandoning Alex.

    Was that not an apt response to: “Who is my neighbor… or Am I my brother’s keeper?” I think a dim outline of a “Good Shepherd” was manifested.

    As a sin-stained brother in Christ, though a non attender of a local religio-tainment 501c3 enterprise, I was literally moved to tears of rejoicing while watching the healing, restorative power of the true gospel that defies denominational boundary and theological cliques. A father and his child reconciled, faith hope and love vindicated
    as all sufficient.

    That video and the written testimonies altered my path this morning…and I am profoundly grateful, Deebs!

  26. I have seen the settlement of a lot of disputes. This reeks of a settlement where the suit is being dropped and no one is now on the line as having done something terrible to a child, which admission/confession would be devastating. Every settlement involves someone not telling the “whole truth and nothing but the truth” to end the litigation. I suspect the recantation was part of such a settlement as were the requests to erase the documentation.

  27. I guess the aunt lied on a police report and his own biological son gave several specific accounts of abuse on his brothers.
    Why isn’t there an apology in there about the granddaughter ? That would be a lie to that he’s estranged from her.
    Where’s the apology to the mother for them painting her as cold and estranged.
    And what about the elder board why not apologize to them if you lied?
    It just foesnt make sense to me
    Oh and where’d me grainers apology to those he has abused spiritually?

  28. Velour wrote:

    Yes. I am with you. Journalists don’t do this. They just update the record.

    This is a blog. So I reckon different rules apply.

    It amounts to a retraction in which case were the previous posts wrong?

    A mystery we’ll never know.

    It’s unfortunate. I do trust TWW but the whole scrub seems to be a little off model for the blog.

    I think it is time to take a break from religion for a while.

  29. Dave wrote:

    A father and his child reconciled, faith hope and love vindicated
    as all sufficient.

    OK, have you ever thought if these allegations of sexual abuse and physical abuse are true that the enormous danger that subsequent generations of that family are in? Children need advocates in the (sane) adults around them.

    It’s nice that the adults are making peace. But will a child pay the price for that?
    Will it be “peace at any price”?

    If there was an abuser in my family, I wouldn’t permit that person near any child.
    Period.

  30. Jack wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    Yes. I am with you. Journalists don’t do this. They just update the record.

    This is a blog. So I reckon different rules apply.

    It amounts to a retraction in which case were the previous posts wrong?

    A mystery we’ll never know.

    It’s unfortunate. I do trust TWW but the whole scrub seems to be a little off model for the blog.

    I think it is time to take a break from religion for a while.

    Jack: I agree religion makes my mind go around in circles. I hope all this reconciliation is real, but to scrub the previous posts bothers me greatly!

  31. When there’s reconciliation, sure, people want to rejoice. But is it true and long-lasting? How will relations be in a year or two? The test of time…

  32. mot wrote:

    Jack: I agree religion makes my mind go around in circles. I hope all this reconciliation is real, but to scrub the previous posts bothers me greatly!

    I’ve done some digging around the internet. This was a big issue. I certainly wouldn’t consider attending Calvary Chapel. I think that one of the commentators above hit the nail on the head – this is a settlement.

    But there were others affected by spiritual abuse & the accusation of church funds being mis-used etc. etc.

    Whether TWW is acting on good faith – I just have to accept what’s written at face value but there seems to be an effort to sweep the entire mess under the carpet.

    I’ve seen this “forgive and forget” stuff before in other Christian venues – an ex-pastor had an affair at my wife’s church. Ten years later, he’s back in the pulpit and now a president of a Christian college.

    Given the seriousness of the accusations, the wide net of those involved, and the unequivocal support previously provided, it’s …. off. And that’s all that we can really say.

    But as I said earlier, this is a blog not a news feed. You’ve got to take everything with a grain of salt.

    I wouldn’t trust any of the Greniers going forward. I speculate this was done to preserve the family business …. I mean church.

  33. I wonder why the brother (Paul) who made the accusation that is now reported to be false isn’t shown in the above video? Why isn’t he shown with the rest of the family?

    Not seeing this brother in this video makes me skeptical and wonder if this retraction was some type of forced legal settlement? Maybe the brother who made the false accusation was worn down with all of this questioning etc. that it became easier to retract.

    Hopefully the father didn’t molest his son but you never know.

  34. Steve240 wrote:

    I wonder why the brother (Paul) who made the accusation that is now reported to be false isn’t shown in the above video? Why isn’t he shown with the rest of the family?

    I think I had a hunch but I am not liberty to tell his story. There are some issue that go beyond the family reconciliation.

  35. Excellent comments to all those who are skeptical about this reconciliation. You all gave good reasons for your concerns. There’s just too many red flags for me to believe nothing ever happened, and now all is well.

  36. Some thoughts:

    This was our decision and there was no legal threat involved of any kind. I promise.

    This was first a request from the victim involved in the situation. This blog always tips toward the victim’s wishes. In that respect, we are not a newspaper.

    Do I feel great about this situation? Not really. It was a hard decision either way.

    We could have handled this the way TGC and others do it. Scrub it all and not say a word. Chances are, no one would have noticed. We decided that we should tell the truth and take the hits on it.

    We could have not allowed comments on this post. We could never do that. We want you to express your thoughts. I can assure you they are being read by the Greniers.

    We thought about this situation for a long time. It wasn’t easy and I particularly did not look forward to this post since I knew how some would receive it. I get it and your thoughts are important to us, even the hard ones.

    The victims were the ones whose wishes were respected here.

  37. Jack wrote:

    – I just have to accept what’s written at face value but there seems to be an effort to sweep the entire mess under the carpet.

    If TWW wanted to sweep it away, we could have scrubbed the posts and said nothing. I doubt anyone would have noticed.

  38. @ dee:
    Whether we realize it or not, the Church is in a war … an age-old battle between darkness and light. Unfortunately, the enemy is sometimes within the church – TWW continues to document this. We need to hear God amidst a multitude of confusing voices coming from both pulpit and pew. Trumpets are sounding all around us, but which side are they on?

    “If the war bugle produces an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle?” (1 Cor 14:8 AMP)

  39. @ Dave:
    Thank you for what you have said. These are things that figured into this decision. I have followed PPs thoughtfulness in this situation. PP is not a CC fan. His blog is a testament to this.

    Life and truth are sometimes quite messy to figure out.

  40. Easter is a time of renewal.
    Our Lord comes to reconcile us to God and to one another.

    We can hope for nothing better than that, in finding their way back to Him, people are able to find one another also in the Peace of Christ.

  41. Would everyone please read this comment from Dave?

    @ Dave:

    It is important to know that Phoenix Preacher (Michael Newham) blog http://michaelnewnham.comb is dedicated to exposing Calvary Chapel abuses. He has been more intimately involved in this situation for a lot longer than we have. His decision to score the posts came out of a deep conviction for allowing the truth to come out.

  42. Velour wrote:

    If you are a praying person, please look at those prayer requests and pray for those people.

    Thank you.

    Thank YOU for all you do for good. A prayer for you also will be said today, Velour, a prayer of thanksgiving for your service here.

  43. I think it’s a mistake to erase history, even (perhaps especially) a history of inaccuracy. We learn from our mistakes. I remember leaving a comment here in which I erred in a matter of fact. I apologized and retracted. The deebs left it up so people could learn from it. Why not do the same here?

    Also, I think it’s too soon to be sure of anything. For me, there remain questions. Why would someone make detailed allegations of abuse and then retract them? What was the motive? What was the rationale? What caused this? If the retraction is true, the allegations were a lie. If the allegations were true, the retraction is a lie. Either way we are dealing with people capable of lying. That is dangerous unless they have truly changed, and it is just too soon to know that yet.

    It’s your blog and you can do what you want, but if it were me, I would wait to see some fruits of this situation before doing anything definitive.

  44. dee wrote:

    @ Julie Anne:
    Why don’t I give you a call after Easter?

    I’ve been close to this situation for a while. Alex is my friend and we have discussed this. Michael Newnham is my friend and we have had conversations on this topic of removing vs not removing posts. I had the backdoor keys to the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog. I fed it posts and moderated it while Alex was out of commission. I’ve kept up with Alex during this journey and he’s kept me informed along the way. I love Alex like a brother. I will speak with Bob. I will read through all of my CC posts.

    My decision will be based on the entire picture.

    Frankly, I don’t understand the push to remove the posts. As long as there is a disclaimer added with an update, then doesn’t it model to the world that sometimes tragic stories can turn to forgiveness and reconciliation? All of our “stories” make up who we are and where we are now. To remove the posts does not mean the lawsuit didn’t happen, it just removes the commentary on it as it happened. I really do not like revisionist history and that is what this feels like for me.

  45. Hello. This is Bob Grenier, Alex and Paul’s father. Thank you all for your interest in our story, and we would ask for your prayers as we continue to move forward. Many of you have questions, which are not able to be answered here in this setting, but, my email address is bobgrenier@me.com, and my mobile # is 559 805 0980.
    Please feel free to contact me if you like, and I would be more than happy to try and help you work through any questions you may have.
    A few thoughts have come to mind while reading the posts here.
    #1. Love believes and hopes all things.
    #2. Love does not keep a record of evil.
    #3. There are 2 sides to every story. See Prov 18:17
    #4. As with any family matter, they are usually very complicated.
    #5. Most of the people posting here have never met our family, or our church body.
    #6. Suspicion is not a gift of the Spirit.
    #7. At first everyone believed Alex and Paul, and now many are calling or inferring that they are liars.
    #8. Jesus talked about false accusations being a reality in life.
    #9. Gayle and I have never defended ourselves in the public venue of social media.
    #10. It’s always interesting to me, that people believe every bad report by someone about a church, or its pastor, but no one ever seems to acknowledge that a congregant may have had issues themselves. Many of the NT epistles, if not most were written to correct congregations, not pastors. But, pastors are always assumed to be guilty, rather than innocent until proven guilty.
    #11. As to why my son Paul was not in the video. He was in NYC, on business, and could not be with us.
    #12. His letter explains what he did and why he did what he did, Just as Alex explains in the video.

    Anyways, I could go on, but thought the above might be of some help to some folks. It’s food for thought.
    Again if you for some reason can’t sleep over all this, even though we do not know each other, and probably never will this side of heaven, and if you are so troubled that you feel talking with me would help, I’m all ears and, would enjoy speaking with you and praying with you.

    In His Strong Grip
    Pastor Bob Grenier

  46. Bob Grenier, Again.
    Should have spell checked etc.
    2 Corrections.
    “Your prayers as we continue to move forward”
    “rather than innocent until proven guilty”

  47. I feel like I might not be understanding something so I’ll ask. If they lied about the accusations, doesn’t that make them the Abusers. I really am confused and not trying to be snarky. I’ve read this blog for a long time and don’t think I’ve ever commented. Just wondering…

  48. (leave the final ‘b’ off the link) http://michaelnewnham.com
    dee wrote:

    Would everyone please read this comment from Dave?

    @ Dave:

    It is important to know that Phoenix Preacher (Michael Newham) blog http://michaelnewnham.comb is dedicated to exposing Calvary Chapel abuses. He has been more intimately involved in this situation for a lot longer than we have. His decision to score the posts came out of a deep conviction for allowing the truth to come out.

    dee wrote:

    It is important to know that Phoenix Preacher (Michael Newham) blog http://michaelnewnham.comb is dedicated to exposing Calvary Chapel abuses. He has been more intimately involved in this situation for a lot longer than we have. His decision to score the posts came out of a deep conviction for allowing the truth to come out.

  49. dee wrote:

    The victims were the ones whose wishes were respected here.

    It strikes me that if it is still valid to refer to these parties as victims, it makes a mockery of their claimed retractions. This “resolution” gives me the same ill feeling of a plea bargain in a criminal case, expedience at the expense of justice. Shoving this matter down the memory hole makes me even more woozy.

  50. Julie Anne wrote:

    dee wrote:
    @ Julie Anne:
    Have you talked with Alex?
    Yes, Dee, we’ve been in touch.

    Has he contacted the ‘Former CC Pastor’ who claims he targeted and libeled him? (In recent SSB comments) There may be other unresolved situations, since it was “Calvary Chapel Abuse” not just Stepfather Abuse.

  51. Bill M wrote:

    dee wrote:

    The victims were the ones whose wishes were respected here.

    It strikes me that if it is still valid to refer to these parties as victims, it makes a mockery of their claimed retractions. This “resolution” gives me the same ill feeling of a plea bargain in a criminal case, expedience at the expense of justice. Shoving this matter down the memory hole makes me even more woozy.

    You’ve expressed my inner-most reactions. The phrase, something is rotten in Denmark comes to mind.

  52. Loren Haas wrote:

    I used to be a part of a Calvary Chapel church. I did not experience gross abuse there, although I am much happier where I am now. That being said, the “Moses Model” could not be better for an abuser.

    I can say the same about my ‘in country’ tour of Calvary Chapel (no gross abuse).
    I am now a none and a done.
    Those who remain in the brand, I wish them well and Godspeed.
    And yes the ‘Moses Model’ is a dinner bell for totalitarian despots.

  53. Bill M wrote:

    It strikes me that if it is still valid to refer to these parties as victims, it makes a mockery of their claimed retractions. This “resolution” gives me the same ill feeling of a plea bargain in a criminal case, expedience at the expense of justice. Shoving this matter down the memory hole makes me even more woozy.

    but we need to remember these people are ‘family’ and terrible things can happen in families

    I remember sitting over coffee with some neighbor ladies long ago when I was a whole lot younger ….. one was complaining about how her mother treated her when she was young and was interrupted by another neighbor who said, yes, she could tell the same kind of story but she wouldn’t do it and when pressed she said simply:
    ‘in the end, your mother is your mother is your mother ….’

    It took me a long time to figure that out, but even then I realized that the lady who imparted those words had lived through something and knew from it even though I didn’t understand her at that point

    ‘family’ means something, for what it’s worth, even in the worst of circumstances I guess

    sure the case is a mess, but if there is hope, then maybe there is a chance for them … we all have our own stories 🙂

  54. dee wrote:

    If TWW wanted to sweep it away, we could have scrubbed the posts and said nothing. I doubt anyone would have noticed

    You score full points for disclosure as far as the blog is concerned but why the full about face is a mystery.

    Ultimately it’s not my business to know. We all look at the evidence and see something different.

    It would be interesting to know if this was starting to affect Calvary Chapel’s bottom line.

    Ultimately church is all about the Benjamins.

  55. Jack wrote:

    It would be interesting to know if this was starting to affect Calvary Chapel’s bottom line.

    I hae no doubt that this story did affect the bottom line.

  56. Bill M wrote:

    It strikes me that if it is still valid to refer to these parties as victims, it makes a mockery of their claimed retractions. T

    You are correct. I used that term to differentiate them from others. I will not longer continue to do so.

  57. Jeremy wrote:

    If they lied about the accusations, doesn’t that make them the Abusers. I really am confused and not trying to be snarky. I’ve read this blog for a long time and don’t think I’ve ever commented. Just wondering…

    Not an unwarranted thought in this matter. Tis is a messy situation.

  58. Julie Anne wrote:

    Frankly, I don’t understand the push to remove the posts. As long as there is a disclaimer added with an update, then doesn’t it model to the world that sometimes tragic stories can turn to forgiveness and reconciliation

    Sometimes, the accusations are so damaging that even with a retraction, it is still terribly painful for those involved. I admire you JA and I know that you will do what you believe is right.

  59. Whether I believe them or not, I am glad that the Deebs are consistent about their policy on victims. There are people keeping an eye on the this situation, and problems can rise again. Furthermore, God is keeping His eyes on it, and He will be ultimate justice.

  60. Hi Doubtrul. It’s Bob Grenier. I’m assuming you were speaking to me when you said, what you did about “work it out here” Actually, I’ve found it much more helpful to speak face to face rather than text on matters such as this one. I have found that often times the tone of the text does not accurately reflect the tone of the heart. Additionally, on this venue one never knows who they are talking to. So, I’m very happy to talk to anyone or as many people as would like to talk. And, FaceTime is a great way to see who you are talking to, and it enhances the quality of communication. So, please feel free to FaceTime me if you like. Also, this will be my last post here. But again, blessings to all of you this Easter Season, and may our Lord be glorified in all of our lives. In Jesus name, amen.
    @ Doubtful:

  61. Bob, it seems to me that the most important issue in this situation is that you have reconciled with your son, Alex. Truly, this is a wondrous gift. You certainly could not be concerned about your reputation now. Christians don’t behave like that, only the world does.

    Why is it important for you to publicly remove the fact that Alex spoke out publicly against you and that you sued him? Were you able to get the court system to purge the lawsuit entirely from their system? If not, there is still public record of it there.

    Isn’t the lawsuit and media attention about the lawsuit part of your marvelous redemption story? Why would you want to erase that? To me, it almost sounds like the perfect plot line for a Christian prodigal son movie. Are you not cheapening the story by getting rid of the difficult and painful part of the story? If God allowed all of it to conspire, why are you trying to remove it?

    What would Christ’s story be like if we left out the part where he was mocked, bruised, beaten? How timely to think about this.

  62. Bob Grenier wrote:

    Additionally, on this venue one never knows who they are talking to.

    That is a nonissue. This was a public lawsuit. There is public commentary on it, and it does not require that the public disclose who they are.

  63. Bob Grenier wrote:

    Hello. This is Bob Grenier, Alex and Paul’s father. Thank you all for your interest in our story, and we would ask for your prayers as continue to move forward. Many of you have questions, which are not able to be answered here in this setting, but, my email address is bobgrenier@me.com, and my mobile # is 559 805 0980.
    Please feel free to contact me if you like, and I would be more than happy to try and help you work through any questions you may have.
    A few thoughts have come to mind while reading the posts here.
    #1. Love believes and hopes all things.
    #2. Love does not keep a record of evil.
    #3. There are 2 sides to every story. See Prov 18:17
    #4. As with any family matter, they are usually very complicated.
    #5. Most of the people posting hear have never met our family, or our church body.
    #6. Suspicion is not a gift of the Spirit.
    #7. At first everyone believed Alex and Paul, and now many are calling or inferring that they are liars.
    #8. Jesus talked about false accusations being a reality in life.
    #9. Gayle and I have never defended ourselves in the public venue of social media.
    #10. It’s always interesting to me, that people believe every bad report by someone about a church, or it’s pastor, but no one ever seems to acknowledge that a congregant may have had issues themselves. Many of the NT epistles, if not most were written to correct congregations, not pastors. But, Pastor’s are always assumed to be guilty, rather than innocent until prevent guilty.
    #11. As to why my son Paul was not in the video. He was in NYC, on business, and could not be with us.
    #12. His letter explains what he did and why he did what he did, Just as Alex explains in the video.

    Anyways, I could go on, but thought the above might be of some help to some folks. It’s food for thought.
    Again if you for some reason can’t sleep over all this, even though we do not know each other, and probably never will this side of heaven, and if you are so troubled that you feel talking with me would help, I’m all ears and, would enjoy speaking with you and praying with you.

    In His Strong Grip
    Pastor Bob Grenier

    Kind of makes me feel validated about my bad feeling about this post. Bob you did not need to come to this site and post such things as above IMO.

  64. Bob Grenier wrote:

    #6. Suspicion is not a gift of the Spirit.

    I believe skepticism is, healthy skepticism that is, for all sides, and it is proven out by this case.

  65. My decision to take down the articles we wrote on the PhxP was based solely on the fact that Alex requested I do so.
    With Dee, I found the decision difficult.
    I complied after many conversations to determine whether or not he was being coerced to make the request.
    My concern for his well being frankly took precedent over journalistic qualms.
    Having said that, I completely support any decision Julie Anne makes in this matter and believe that she will act in wisdom and that she too cares deeply about Alex and his family.
    I share many of her concerns.
    This story has provided one difficult call after another for those of us who have covered it.
    The one thing I know for sure is that Dee and Julie Anne have always acted ethically and with great credibility and will continue to do so.

  66. @ Julie Anne:
    Excellent comment, JA! History and the scriptures as well record the good, bad, and the ugly. We can’t, nor should we, erase history.

  67. How unusual, a post with good news in it! Reconciliation is what we Christians and God’s ambassadors are called to. While I applaud the public burying of a hatchet, there are obviously bigger questions and issues here because of the history involved. As I have read through some of the comments here, the bigger issues are the ones that are either being discussed or carefully danced around.
    Let me logically break it down for anyone bothering to read my comment. First off though, let me suggest that we all remove the white hats we have placed on our heads about who the good guys and bad guys are, and also choose to take our egos and stick it inside that hat. I see this as necessary in order to be subjective in the analysis. There are only three possibilities concerning the said “victims” who are children of the one previously publicly proclaimed as the “victimizer:”

    1) The “victims” were telling the truth before and now for unknown reasons they are lying.
    2) The “victims” were lying before and succeeded in getting other watchbloggers to publicly promote a lie. They are now coming clean and trying to do what they reasonably can to repair the very public damage.
    3) The “victims” were speaking half-truths before and exaggerated stories creating a lying picture of what transpired. That is technically a lie. They have now gone to the other extreme and are minimizing what happened and are still speaking half-truths which are technically also half-lies.

    If we are to believe what they are now saying, then #2 is what actually happened. Seeing as I am an outsider I am not in a place, however, to judge between these three. Other commenters have publicly taken a stand and chosen one of these logical outcomes. Let me humbly point out that only God really knows what the truth is. God is not an ideal, but a person. God is also The Judge and He alone knows everything that has transpired. Even the two sons do not know absolutely everything the way that God does.
    What is important and relevant to us all is that there is no possibility here that does not involve lying and warping of the facts, either before, or presently, or both, by the accusers. The owners of this blog have adopted a policy of always believing everything anyone claiming to be a victim says. However, that policy is obviously flawed and it does not match with the actual reality of things outside of the Echo Chamber comment stream here. I am not personally attacking anyone here and if you are reading this and actually checked your ego and your white hat at the door, you should be able to see that. The reality is that people do lie. Some people who claim to be victims lie. According to C.S. Lewis, at least 50 percent of everything we hear is false. Some are total fabrications. Some are half-truths and exaggerations. Some are things that have been misunderstood and have become warped in the retelling. So the reality is not as simple as we would like it to be.
    Do leaders abuse their power sometimes and try to cover up scandal? Yes. Do Christians take up offense and then spin lies against leaders, rather they know what they are doing or not? Yes. How do we discern what the truth is? If we always assume one or the other, than we obviously error. This blog admits the second happens, which I do not deny. It likely happens more often then the first. But it denies the first. Now something has happened that sheds light on that error. Do we ignore it, or do we deal with reality? If we ignore it, then we are just like the hypocrites that we rail against. Thanks for the recent post on hypocrisy. It was good and according to what it says, these are both cases of dishonest hypocrisy. When facts are presented and it is clear that we are the ones who were wrong, but we do not admit the sin, nor apologize, nor do anything to try to correct making the same mistake again in the future, we are dishonest hypocrites. We see that in the “other guys:” the ones we imagine in the black hats, but can we see that in ourselves? I can. My hat is more gray (a mix of black and white) than I willingly would like to admit sometimes.
    I want to be an honest hypocrite, which is why I have taken more than an hour out of my day to write this response. I have been fooled before. In the last long season I tried to help two troubled men. I made the mistake of believing everything that they told me in confidence assuming it was the full and whole truth. However, later weeds sprung up and choked out the truth of God’s Word in their lives. When this happened it became apparent that there were things that they were hiding from me. They changed their relationships with everyone around them including me. Neither man was what they once appeared to be. I had compassion on them and tried to help them out of their problems, but they were hiding the reality of the weeds, the cares of this life, growing up inside them that eventually choked the Word entirely. So I try to learn from that mistake and take things that are stated on a public forum, especially, with a grain of salt.
    I should also note that I have seen some very public warnings signs that at least one of the “victims” had serious issues, both Biblically and with mental health issues. In the case of Alex, I noted episodes he had while commenting on “Phoenix Preacher.” I was a regular follower there for some months and the first thing I noticed that he was calling himself “Pastor Al.” I could find nothing that explained this. He obviously has never been a pastor to anyone, so this was my first hint that something was off. The second was two episodes where “Pastor Al” lost control of himself and went on public tirades on the blog filling up the comment stream with long weird repeated angry posts. The moderator stepped up loudly, complaining that he was at work and that Al needed to stop, but Al was out of control. The moderated threatened to ban Al permanently, but even that did not stop the out of control comments. They only ended in the evening after the moderator made a personal phone call and talked things through. I have no idea how many other times this was repeated before and after I was active there. But his overall tone in his comments were extremely bitter, which is certainly a warning sign in itself. I have lots of personal experience with mentally disturbed people. Al obviously had issues.
    The other Biblical problem with this is the fact that God’s standards are different than what we Western Christians believe and practice. It is vogue to go online and publicly bash your own parents today. But in the Law God gave this was a crime, an offense of the worst kind that carried the death penalty. Our culture and God’s system of morality are way out of whack with each other on this issue. These two “victims” have been doing things that would have got them sentenced and executed once upon a time. We can choose to ignore this fact to keep our believed “white hats” on our heads or we could choose to take the hat off and re-examine this issue. Is God really OK with this?
    I have had to personally wrestle with this issue because my own father abused alcohol, which eventually led to his death. My relationship with him was strained because of how he acted. Yet for me not to honor him is clearly a sin according to the scriptures. The reality is that he was not all bad. I have some good memories of him. During my childhood, and while he was drinking, he did go to work each day and provide materially for my family. I never went hungry and I always had a place to sleep. As an adult I realized that he did love me, but the addiction had twisted him and had made that hard to see and the expressions of that love a bit weird. But I must honor him for the real things he did that were good. The glass was half full. If all I do is talk about the half empty part then I dishonor my parent and I call a Biblical curse down on myself. The scriptures are crystal clear on this issue.
    In closing, I encourage everyone to examine themselves and how you have personally responded and what you have publicly written online about this family. I think humility is the dish of the day with this. Love it and thrive as an honest hypocrite, or hate it and embrace the dark-side of dishonest hypocrisy. There is truly a big lesson to be learned from this, if learning is what we really want. (FYI, this website has a comment section format which it has badly outgrown. It needs a nested comment format like you find with Disqus, in order for there to be clear and continued communication between commenters. Instead, responses are just dumped in linear format which is very unwieldy with hundreds of comments. Because of this fact, I will not be trying to respond to any responses anyone might post to my opinion. Nothing personal but I can see why Warren Throckmorton moved his blog over to Patheos. 🙂

  68. There is nothing hidden that will not be brought to light. And I’ve heard it said that once something has been on the Internet, it can always be found, somehow, some way. And right about now I’m thinking of that scene from The Wizard of Oz: “Pay no attention to that Man behind the curtain!

  69. @ Julie Anne:
    And publicly sworn testimony, that was not pretty, as I remember. At that point it is no longer “Suspicion”… Some one was (is) lying..
    Also, I do not, nor will I, attend a church that does not present its budget publicly to the pew peons, to then vote on it. Finally, I believe that the Elders should be elected by the pew-peons. Again, while this does not prevent abuse, it makes everyone responsible, and greatly reduces the appearance of evil, or “suspicion”….

  70. I agree with Julie Anne 100% on this. By the way the courts will not erase the filing its there and will remain there. Please correct me if I’m wrong on that, anyone. Second it’s not that most here want to think the worst of you I highly doubt that. As a mother of a child victim of hanious sexual abuse I can assure you that I have experienced more Christian love here in this blog with those commenting than those in our former church where I expected my son to get care. Instead they behaved like the world and the posters here have reflected Gods grace and Christs love.
    Keep in mind if your sons did in fact lie about you and your wife I’m sorry that you were falsely accused. It doesn’t change that you sued your children. By the way you did speak out publicaly against the allegations by filing a very public lawsuit. I’m not saying by doing that your a terrible person however it makes it difficult to believe that something isn’t right here. I also believe it’s difficult for me and others because your abuses did not just stay with in your family. Others have come forward and have talked of your abusive behavior to those in your own congregation. Again you have others who say you have wronged them who are not your family. Again it makes your credibility difficult. I truly hope I’m wrong nothing would be better than to know for certain that this is genuine. I’m sorry but I don’t trust you enough to say I believe you or your sons. I hope your life reflects your reconciliation from here on out. Also to saying “Suspicion is not a gift of the spirit” sorry but that sounds like an accusation against believers who question the authenticity of this reconciling. I believe we can be suspicious we are not to be easily deceived either. “Many here believed Alex and his brother now many are inferring they are liars” WELL THEY ARE if they are going back on what they said! Either way for whatever reason they are being dishonest because if they truly lied well then they are liars if they told the truth then they are lying to cover the truth I don’t get your point in saying that unless your accusing those of us who doubt this story of wrong doing. Which it sounds like you are in not trying to be mean here. It’s interesting to you that every person believes bad reports about pastors (bad report / well that’s a buzz word I heard often in our former controlling church) and you state most of the New Testament is about correcting the congregation. Ok here’s where I have a big problem you are part of the congregation and the New Testament and old was written to you and all pastors the same as everyone else. You are not on a different level nor are you Moses. The old and bed testemant is written to ALL believers you included! If your a 5013c then your a corporation and no longer a church pastor and your authority is no different than me having it or anyone else. Sorry but anyone can say they are called to ministry just as anyone can say Lord Lord it doesn’t mean you know him as you just implied with those of us questioning your sincerity. Again I hope this is real and I totally respect Dee and Deb. Dee has an amazing heart and loves the Lord. I have got a chance to know this woman and what these ladies do here is up to them I love my sisters in Christ it doesn’t mean I agree with them on the total retraction. It just means I like others would like to see the fruit burst forward in the future from the reconciliation. We will still lift you up in prayer we will still love you as a brother in Christ but I think people want to see 100% transparency in everything within your church not just your sons. Ok if I’m wrong here in open to correction Julie Anne wrote:

    Bob, it seems to me that the most important issue in this situation is that you have reconciled with your son, Alex. Truly, this is a wondrous gift. You certainly could not be concerned about your reputation now. Christians don’t behave like that, only the world does.

    Why is it important for you to publicly remove the fact that Alex spoke out publicly against you and that you sued him? Were you able to get the court system to purge the lawsuit entirely from their system? If not, there is still public record of it there.

    Isn’t the lawsuit and media attention about the lawsuit part of your marvelous redemption story? Why would you want to erase that? To me, it almost sounds like the perfect plot line for a Christian prodigal son movie. Are you not cheapening the story by getting rid of the difficult and painful part of the story? If God allowed all of it to conspire, why are you trying to remove it?

    What would Christ’s story be like if we left out the part where he was mocked, bruised, beaten? How timely to think about this.

  71. This makes me laugh: arguing publicly about whether a public lawsuit, public accusations, public blog posts should remain public. hahaha

    This is the kind of thing that makes pastors lose credibility. Bob, trust me on this, if you remain quiet, it will look better for you. 🙂

    Dee, you aren’t going to take this post down, right? haha I’m sorry, I just had to.

  72. Julie Anne wrote:

    This is the kind of thing that makes pastors lose credibility. Bob, trust me on this, if you remain quiet, it will look better for you.

    If I was a betting man and I am not, he can not control himself and be quiet.

  73. Bob Grenier wrote:

    #2. Love does not keep a record of evil.

    Guess we should ignore the Bible then. That what you had in mind?

    Your list undermines TWW’s good-faith decision to rejoice in your family’s reconciliation.

  74. dee wrote:

    By removing the post dealing with this particular situation, I am not stating that I believe anything about the theology or the state of affairs at Calvary s a church. I am dealing directly with the family, including the victims in this story.

    Is this just about family reconciliation, or is it also about creating an example of a discredited story? Imagine the clacking tongues at coffee hour.

    Unfortunately, Bob Grenier’s listed items appear to play the persecution card:

    #8. Jesus talked about false accusations being a reality in life.
    #9. Gayle and I have never defended ourselves in the public venue of social media.
    #10. It’s always interesting to me, that people believe every bad report by someone about a church, or it’s pastor, but no one ever seems to acknowledge that a congregant may have had issues themselves. Many of the NT epistles, if not most were written to correct congregations, not pastors. But, Pastor’s are always assumed to be guilty, rather than innocent until prevent guilty.

  75. Bill M wrote:

    I believe skepticism is, healthy skepticism that is, for all sides, and it is proven out by this case.

    Given the increasing number of minister and ministry failures in America, it would be advisable for church folks to maintain a healthy suspicion of what they join themselves to. Not to the point of paranoia, but keeping their observation powers polished, listening to and watching things carefully … testing the spirits to see if they be from God.

  76. Anyone remember Robert Morris’ sermon where he chastised his congregation for listening to gossip on the internet? Shortly after that rebuke, he helped restore Mark Driscoll to ministry … giving bloggers more stuff to “gossip” about.

  77. @ Michael:
    Thank you, Michael. I know this was going to be a hard post and I am so glad that you said something. I did not expect you to nor were you obligated to do so. In the end, for both of us it came down to a request by Alex. I honk it is important for me to send a message that the people who tell their stories do have control over the message. Sometimes, the stories are so complicated and messy and over time, the truth emerges and realization of deeper truth comes more clear for the one who told his story.

    I will probably look back at this blog as the hardest one I had to write. I feel comfortable inside with my final decisions but I do not feel comfortable with all the details and it is hard to explain this in a way that makes sense to everyone. In fact, if is a bit hard for me to figure it all out, knowing all the details.

    I know that JA twill work this out as well so that she is at peace with the situation. It is as hard for her as it is for us.

    I send you best wishes on your blog. Thank you for the Saved Abedini update. I plan to post a link to it.

  78. @ Max:
    Never fear, there will be more *gossip* coming in the future . I plan to discuss the situation with Pete Wilson and give one more final detail that should put the ribbon on the story.

  79. Friend wrote:

    an example of a discredited story?

    There is an element of that here. Listen carefully to Alex’s story and reread Paul’s note.

  80. Bob Grenier wrote:

    Anyways, I could go on, but thought the above might be of some help to some folks. It’s food for thought.

    Hi Bob.

    Your public comments are admirable. This can be a tough audience, and not being afraid of public perception is commendable. Your family has been through much, and this had to have been very stressful. I hope all the best for you going forward.

    No, I don’t know your family. I actually did not really follow the situation much. This specifically meant skipping over many comments and post originating from, or related to your family.

    This is a public forum however, and your comment appeared to be addressed to the public in general. If you don’t mind I would like to respond to items 1-12 as a group. If you want, we can address individual items further.

    Bob, when a person rolls a smoke bomb into a room, the place doesn’t stop smelling like a fart the moment the bomb roller gets tired of fart smells. The smell kinda has a way of getting into the carpet and upholstery. This situation became public when a member of your family threw a bomb. One take away from this situation is, there was a situation. And it was a public situation.

    It is understandable that you would have many hurts after strangers comment on your family. But let me bring your focus to this also. You were the head of a household that had a bomb throwing member. As painful as public comments may be, they resulted from actions of Grenier family member/s.

    There is life after disaster. Just as there is a time for every purpose. This is likely a time for regret and embarrassment. Good form is always timely and especially after what has occurred. ood form of the public is not up to you, but your form is.

    Nathan

  81. Bill M wrote:

    Bob Grenier wrote:

    #6. Suspicion is not a gift of the Spirit.

    I believe skepticism is, healthy skepticism that is, for all sides, and it is proven out by this case.

    Yes, we are meant to be discerning about right and wrong. Wise as serpents and innocent as doves doesn’t mean we only say positive things and keep quiet about problems.

  82. sometimes ‘less’ is ‘more’…. there is more comfort in being at peace within oneself than frantically attempting to restore one’s good opinion in the eyes of others, yes
    The Good Lord is able deliver us from all of our wants and our fears in that regard and restore us to peace.

    “From the desire of being esteemed, deliver me, Jesus.
    From the desire of being approved, deliver me, Jesus.
    From the fear of being humiliated, deliver me, Jesus.
    From the fear of being despised, deliver me, Jesus.
    From the fear of suffering rebukes, deliver me, Jesus.
    From the fear of being calumniated, deliver me, Jesus.
    From the fear of being ridiculed, deliver me, Jesus.
    From the fear of being wronged, deliver me, Jesus.
    From the fear of being suspected, deliver me, Jesus.”

    (For those who need to pray this litany of humility sincerely, and we all may have need it sooner or later):
    We ask the Good Lord in His great mercy to hear our prayer. Amen.

  83. Liz wrote:

    we are meant to be discerning about right and wrong. Wise as serpents and innocent as doves doesn’t mean we only say positive things and keep quiet about problems.

    Amen! Pastors, in addition to their office, are also members of the Body of Christ. They are not above correction, reproof, and rebuke by other members (and that includes the pew). Because churches misread Biblical instruction re: “touch not my anointed” and “do not usurp authority”, errant leaders get away with too much in the American church. When red flags go up, stand up – don’t shut up!

  84. nathan priddis wrote:

    when a person rolls a smoke bomb into a room, the place doesn’t stop smelling like a fart the moment the bomb roller gets tired of fart smells. The smell kinda has a way of getting into the carpet and upholstery.

    I have been laughing about the reality of this comment for the last few minutes.

  85. Wow, well said. Very gracious but cuts through all the back and forth. nathan priddis wrote:

    Bob Grenier wrote:

    Anyways, I could go on, but thought the above might be of some help to some folks. It’s food for thought.

    Hi Bob.

    Your public comments are admirable. This can be a tough audience, and not being afraid of public perception is commendable. Your family has been through much, and this had to have been very stressful. I hope all the best for you going forward.

    No, I don’t know your family. I actually did not really follow the situation much. This specifically meant skipping over many comments and post originating from, or related to your family.

    This is a public forum however, and your comment appeared to be addressed to the public in general. If you don’t mind I would like to respond to items 1-12 as a group. If you want, we can address individual items further.

    Bob, when a person rolls a smoke bomb into a room, the place doesn’t stop smelling like a fart the moment the bomb roller gets tired of fart smells. The smell kinda has a way of getting into the carpet and upholstery. This situation became public when a member of your family threw a bomb. One take away from this situation is, there was a situation. And it was a public situation.

    It is understandable that you would have many hurts after strangers comment on your family. But let me bring your focus to this also. You were the head of a household that had a bomb throwing member. As painful as public comments may be, they resulted from actions of Grenier family member/s.

    There is life after disaster. Just as there is a time for every purpose. This is likely a time for regret and embarrassment. Good form is always timely and especially after what has occurred. ood form of the public is not up to you, but your form is.

    Nathan

  86. dee wrote:

    Never fear, there will be more *gossip* coming in the future .

    It’s called gossip by errant church leaders if you are talking about them. To the rest of the Body of Christ, it is truth we need to know.

  87. “Since I consider the victims the ones in control of their narratives, that is what convinced me.”

    One of the wisest things I’ve seen written on a Christian blog in a long time. Thanks Dee.

  88. Julie Anne wrote:

    This is the kind of thing that makes pastors lose credibility.

    I’ve been following this all day. It’s an interesting case study in credibility.

    The video, with the piano music, the rain, the whole tear jerking thing, is very similar to other evangelical emotional manipulations that I have seen before. It seems written to pull the heartstrings, I suspect mainly for Calvary Chapel members.

    Maybe it’s true, maybe that’s how evangelicals are. Maybe the other brother is not ready to face the parents or maybe he just wants to resolve things privately.

    Or maybe it’s time to get back to the family business of the church. Get the red back into the black, get the membership back in the tithing mode again. Repair the bread and butter machine before everyone winds up on the street.

    Church is not a world of which I am a part, christianity is not my faith.

    It really is an alternate universe. Perhaps that is why today’s proceedings feel so alien to me.

    Very educational.

  89. Max wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Never fear, there will be more *gossip* coming in the future .
    It’s called gossip by errant church leaders if you are talking about them. To the rest of the Body of Christ, it is truth we need to know.

    So true, Max.

  90. Wade Burleson wrote:

    “Since I consider the victims the ones in control of their narratives, that is what convinced me.”

    One of the wisest things I’ve seen written on a Christian blog in a long time. Thanks Dee.

    Wade I hope I am wrong, but I do not see how scrubbing previous blog items is wise. Do you scrub previous blog items?

  91. Jack wrote:

    It seems written to pull the heartstrings, I suspect mainly for Calvary Chapel members.
    Maybe it’s true, maybe that’s how evangelicals are. Maybe the other brother is not ready to face the parents or maybe he just wants to resolve things privately.
    Or maybe it’s time to get back to the family business of the church. Get the red back into the black, get the membership back in the tithing mode again. Repair the bread and butter machine before everyone winds up on the street.

    When you said “heartstrings” did you mean to write “pursestrings?” That could be the motivation.

  92. ishy wrote:

    Whether I believe them or not, I am glad that the Deebs are consistent about their policy on victims. There are people keeping an eye on the this situation, and problems can rise again. Furthermore, God is keeping His eyes on it, and He will be ultimate justice.

    AMEN.
    they were right to highlight the story when it broke, which may, IF the reconciliation is on the level, have helped by focusing light on the case …. the Deebs intent has always been to consistently help victims of abuse

    ““Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.” (Dietrich Bonhoeffer)

    and

    “Those who love their dream of a Christian community more than the Christian community itself become destroyers of that Christian community even though their personal intentions may be ever so honest, earnest, and sacrificial.”
    (Dietrich Bonhoeffer)

  93. mot wrote:

    I do not see how scrubbing previous blog items is wise.

    I’m coming to agree with you about the scrubbing. I’ve been reading through previous articles and comments to see if I said things I need to retract based on assuming lies were true. There may be others who will want to do this if articles remain available with updates.
    And some commenters who were criticized are now proven correct, like one who was advised to just read more details and said, “No amount of reading can tell me if what I read is fact.”

  94. Dave A A wrote:

    mot wrote:

    I do not see how scrubbing previous blog items is wise.

    I’m coming to agree with you about the scrubbing. I’ve been reading through previous articles and comments to see if I said things I need to retract based on assuming lies were true. There may be others who will want to do this if articles remain available with updates.
    And some commenters who were criticized are now proven correct, like one who was advised to just read more details and said, “No amount of reading can tell me if what I read is fact.”

    It sure has muddied the waters and not made the waters clearer IMO. I am just naturally skeptical of situations like this one.

  95. Steve240 wrote:

    When you said “heartstrings” did you mean to write “pursestrings?” That could be the motivation.

    My initial response was “them sheep ain’t gonna fleece themselves!” But I that’s pretty cynical even for me.

    I’ve noticed that when evangelical Christians want to manipulate the congregation, the sad music starts and there’s usually a tear jerking video to raise emotions, and then there’s identification of the “need” (not OUR need but God’s of course), usually financial.

    Some political parties and charities act in a similar way but when I did attend an evangelical church, it was pretty much every Sunday.

    I’ve not seen this in the mainline churches I’ve attended, maybe they are just more covert about it.

    Or maybe that overwrought emotionalism is how sincerity is expressed in that culture.

  96. An Attorney wrote:

    I have seen the settlement of a lot of disputes. This reeks of a settlement where the suit is being dropped and no one is now on the line as having done something terrible to a child, which admission/confession would be devastating. Every settlement involves someone not telling the “whole truth and nothing but the truth” to end the litigation. I suspect the recantation was part of such a settlement as were the requests to erase the documentation.

    So it seems. Deals are cut, I hate to say all the time, but certainly lots of time. In our family a child custody deal was cut one time. In fact, in our state mediation is required; everybody compromises. Certain professionals that I know, and their buddies and bosses, offer deals if somebody will take a plea. It is fascinating how that works.

    This has deal written all over it.

    I am not opposed to deals. It all depends on the situation. I am hoping a deal can be cut in East Asia right now.

    I like in the liturgy where we literally say “peace” which does not mean either agreement or win/lose but means cessation of hostilities if there are any.

  97. Jack wrote:

    Or maybe that overwrought emotionalism is how sincerity is expressed in that culture.

    Overwrought emotionalism is a good coverup for insincerity. People can fake emotion; it is difficult to fake actual thinking.

  98. While the current turn of events does somewhat “muddy” the waters, there are still facts..
    Pastor Bob filed a lawsuit against son(s)..
    there was sworn testimony of abuse in a court of law ( transcripts were posted on the now down Calvary Chapel Abuse site)
    This has gone on for many years, with multiple levels of appeal, again there are public court documents
    Large sums of mone have been spent. Aligations that some of this money has come from Calvary Chapel… since there books are not public, this has not been verified…. in contrast, at all the churches i have attended, and given money, there is a public accounting of how the money is spent, and there would be a HUGE debat/stink if church money was spent sueing a brother,
    ..
    Alligations of police records dissapearing, or at least were not complete on statements of abuse were made. Again, this kind of stuff is not “private” any more…. when courts and question of police behavior is involved, we as citizens need to care….
    There were many accounts of abuse, not involving the Granier sons that were presented by people on the Calvary Chapel abuse blog that have now “gone away”. Some of these accounts/alligations of abuse are against the other Calvary Chapel preachers that are part of the “celebration” of the reconciliation.
    I have not heard of a “repentance” for the lawsuite.
    Etc..
    While muddy, i would assert that ALL cases of abuse are “muddy” to some degree…. if we were perfect humans, we could be “innocent” reporters of sin/abuse/etc…. but we are not. However, that does not mean we should remain silent…. This blog is not a court of law, it is a place to give voice to victims and those oppressed…. while democracy/ congragational rule is far from perfect, i would content that is current “stituation” has allot to do with the lavk of accountability in the CC system…..

  99. PS
    Sorry for typoes… can Dee’ s fix
    Also, i repeat again, Christainity is, at the most basic level, about forgiveness… so, i am glad to see the lawsuit ended, and the beginning of recocillation… iI for one, bo not like seeing people destroy themselves for this stuff..
    However, foregivness DOES NOT mean there is consquences for past actions….. nor, should we erase/cover up/ paper over the past abuse… this gets more “stinky” given the “commercialization/marketing/packaging” of current american christianity… Further, each flavor wants to brag about how its “distictives” makes it better than the “other” flavor… seeing the hype/marketing of this reconcillation troubles me

  100. We really need a way to edit what we write! On small devices, hard to see typoe, or maybe I am just getting old and eyes are continuing to degrade!!

  101. mot wrote:

    I am just naturally skeptical of situations like this one

    I’m more skeptical than I used to be, especially when lawsuits are involved. In this case 2 accusations have been recanted and many more have not. For all I know all the other accusations may be true, but…..

  102. Jack wrote:

    I’ve not seen this in the mainline churches I’ve attended, maybe they are just more covert about it.

    Or maybe more calm and open.

    In our church, the ushers bring the offering to the altar, and clergy briefly hold it aloft, and everybody prays, “All things come of thee, O Lord, and of thine own have we given thee.” To me this is a good reminder of God’s generosity. But a visiting friend was shocked–shocked!–to see actual money being displayed in the middle of the worship service. He said, “At my church, they just smuggle it out the back and go count it someplace.”

  103. ‘Somebody said in court’ is not necessarily truth of very truth, even if the statement is made in good faith. I personally heard opening arguments on a case of shaken baby syndrome where the prosecution had a signed confession from the father. In fact, the father thought he had done it. During trial the defense was able to prove that somebody else actually did it, much to the surprise of the father (and the prosecution). It all came out on the evening news or I would not be saying this.

    He said/she said? Papers were signed? Shoot, in my state we have an actual innocence procedure/office financed by the state which has demonstrated that some persons convicted beyond a reasonable doubt were in fact innocent. One man twice convicted (some sort of error in the first trial) on testimony of a visual witness was later shown to be innocent when DNA found the man who had actually done the deed. This case was all over the news; I would never say this if it were not public.

    Hence, I feel a lot better thinking that in the final judgement it is God who judges since it is God who knows the truth. People? Not so much.

  104. Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

    Also, i repeat again, Christainity is, at the most basic level, about forgiveness… so, i am glad to see the lawsuit ended, and the beginning of recocillation…

    Today is Good Friday, a day in which we as Christians commemorate our Lord Jesus’ Passion. We are all level at the Cross of Calvary, where He bled and died for us all. May each of us cry out: Lord have mercy on me!

    I leave you all with a prayer of St. Ephrem the Syrian:

    O Lord and Master of my life!

    Take from me the spirit of sloth,
    Despondency, lust for power and idle talk.

    And grant me, Thy servant, a spirit of chastity,
    Humility, patience and love.

    Yea, O Lord and King!

    Grant me to see my own transgressions,
    And not to judge my brother or sister,
    For blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen.

    A Blessed Good Friday and Joyous Easter (Pascha to my Orthodox brethren) to All!

  105. I’ve been around for nearly three-quarters of a century and I’ve seen a lot of preacher kids acting bad in church. But, if this is true, it’s the worst PK behavior I’ve heard of in my lifetime!

  106. Darlene wrote:

    Today is Good Friday

    But Easter’s on the way!
    I just saw that the local churches are planning a sunrise service at the nearby Christian camp. I thought I’d go, but right now it looks like a Christmas Bing would dream of (if you get my “drift”). Maybe God will kindly put the snow on pause for a few hours (or months).

  107. okrapod wrote:

    I like in the liturgy where we literally say “peace” which does not mean either agreement or win/lose but means cessation of hostilities if there are any.

    In Christ, peace. But not the peace of the Pax Romana. Not a worldly peace, but a return to serenity, even in the midst of worldly difficulties.

    If I were in that troubled family, I would hope for the peace of Christ with a value above any income for ‘the family business’ brought about by a calculated pretense of reconciliation. The world sees one thing: the public image of a family; but the members know if it is real or not. But for the sake of this troubled family, I can hope they do find peace with God and with one another …. the pax Christi.

  108. Friend wrote:

    In our church, the ushers bring the offering to the altar, and clergy briefly hold it aloft, and everybody prays, “All things come of thee, O Lord, and of thine own have we given thee.” To me this is a good reminder of God’s generosity. But a visiting friend was shocked–shocked!–to see actual money being displayed in the middle of the worship service.

    This was a practice in the Anglican Church I was raised in.

    When my wife and I got married, she was surprised that I was not handing over 10% of my income to the church, she was raised that that was not optional.

    She still attends but no longer tithes. We give to charity and she still gives an offering. I don’t police it, but I’m pretty sure it’s not 10% of her paycheck.

    When the focus is on the money all the time, it’s a big turn off. Did some research and nearly all the evangelical churches in our area state the 10% rule.

  109. “Christianity is, at the most basic level, about forgiveness” I have always tried to live that way and I have paid a very heavy price, especially in the real world church where forgiveness is seen as weakness unless there is an apologetic or financial gain. I have been forgiven one time, where someone actually said “I forgive you” after I gutted myself and basically apologized for being alive and taking up their air space. There was no restoration, no building on that forgiveness it was go away and don’t bother us.

    Pretty much in any real world, practical relational understanding forgiveness is like any other commodity it is to be traded and bartered to leverage the most for an ROI. Now I have experienced restoration and forgiveness in the world and people who are not, by their own words followers of Christ. Quite profound forgiveness and restoration, especially among my family, which I was encouraged not to stay too close to because they were not believers in the cult version of the faith I was in.

    I honestly don’t get it, I am not the best person, in fact, I often doubt I am even human after all the rhetoric I had shoved down me for so many years. It took me decades of focused interaction with my father to reconcile and I was always there for him, even when he seem to hate me, which at times he make rather clear. I learned to understand why and navigate around the anger to see the real person. Sort of like Jesus was said to do with us, but that is not the type of Jesus many folks in the faith communities I was part of really cared much about.

    This is the type of Christianity I see read the comment section with accusation after accusation a few kind comments but rhetoric upon rhetoric anger about what is God’s real name, type of bible used, all the Sola’s, etc.

    http://www.wnd.com/2017/04/bible-answer-man-converts-to-greek-orthodox-church/

    This is extremely mild from what I have seen on and offline, USENET of the 80’s was more the rhetoric I remember back in my Christian days. The end of the world lies, the Satanic Ritual abuse lies of the late 70’s-early 80’s, Mike Warnke, Bob Lar$on, Kathryn Kuhlman, Gothard, fill in the blank and if you questioned their nonsense you were in sin, rejected, looked at like you worshiped Satan. It sucked the life out of me and I am still paying for it.

    I found and see the Gospel in the people I work/worked with, they have had the most profound effect on me. The faith tradition I was part of for the most part was “bible” alone, but what if you cannot read, what if you do not have the cognitive capacity to understand all the nuances of scripture. Well that is because of the fall and that sin is on them, they are broken vessels of wrath bla bla bla.

    The thing that really use to get me was the I killed Jesus rhetoric, I did not kill Jesus, I was not even alive when he died, from how I see it in scripture he willingly gave up his life, for the joy set before him. Etc. I got so tired every easter season being reminded of how much I hate God and How my sin hammered the nails in his hands and feet and then it stops there. Over and over and over again reminded of how unworthy I am, what a piece of human filth I am, we all are, even before we were born. Being reminded we are all Jr. Hilter’s just below the surface just waiting to take out the human race. I don’t get that. It’s not good news when it is put that way.

    From the very first time I really understood calvary to now, the only thing I ever wanted to do was serve Jesus, I do it badly, I still sin horribly in thought and deed and in my heart, I hold anger towards others created in the image of God. I was unable to afford to let my mother die at home like she wanted, I consider that my worse sin. I tried with all my strength and begged God even a few times but it is what it is. I don’t do this for attention sympathy but I do share this because it makes it hurt a bit less so in that sense I guess I am selfish.

  110. @ brian:
    Brian, I am not first to say this, but I wonder if Christ came today, instead of 2000 years ago, who would he hang out with….. and who would be the “relgious rulers” that he opposed….. i have to agree with you that i am seen more Christ like behavior in “non-believing” friends than those that expose the “correct docturine”

  111. Brian,

    I don’t think that wanting things to hurt less makes you selfish – only human. It’s normal to want less pain. I’m sorry your story feels so painful…

    There was an illustration I used to hear years ago: there was a very rich man, and one day someone saw him stoop down and pick up a very small coin from the dust. He cleaned it and put it in his pocket. It was incredible to see such a rich man bother to pick up that coin, so the man who saw him asked him about it: ‘How come? You’re famously rich. That coin is hardly worth anything, and it is dirty too… You already have more than enough. Why bother to pick that up?’ And the answer was: ‘I did it because the king’s image is on it, and I don’t like to see the king’s image stepped on.’ Not a perfect illustration, but it always touched me when I heard it. We are so affected by sin, but I believe that even in our ‘fallenness’ (the word probably doesn’t exist) we still have God’s likeness, even if dimmed and dirtied. And every human being has worth because of that, no matter what a miserable life s/he may have come to have…

    May God bless you and give you peace and joy!

  112. Hi BRIAN,
    many people say ‘Lord, Lord’ and turn around and treat people poorly, so never be confused about who will be recognized by Our Lord on the Last Day at judgment.

    I can see Christ-like behavior in my acquaintances who are Muslims. I can see kindness in many Jewish friends that I cannot see witnessed among strident angry ‘Christians’. Please know that those ‘Christians’ who have treated you poorly may not be who they ‘say’ they are: followers of Christ. He wouldn’t have treated you poorly. They are followers of another entity, not Him.

    Peace be with you, our kind brother.

  113. Christiane wrote:

    many people say ‘Lord, Lord’ and turn around and treat people poorly, so never be confused about who will be recognized by Our Lord on the Last Day at judgment

    Jesus was clear about such folks: “It is not everyone who keeps saying to me ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter the kingdom of Heaven … I shall tell them plainly, ‘I have never known you’.” (Matthew 7)

  114. You make an interesting point! There is sworn testimony from the victims and witnesses!!!!!! If these sons did lie their will be heavy consequences with the laws of our land for purgery , filing false accusations, witnesses could be held accountable as well if they made false sworn statements this just isn’t about the church and the victims it’s now circulated into the public the law. Now the public do have a right to know this information in regards to false statements made to public officials. Also the police and courts devoted time to victims witnesses and the accused which cost tax payers money. That is just my thoughts that came to mind when I read this comment. Jeffrey J Chalmers wrote:

    While the current turn of events does somewhat “muddy” the waters, there are still facts..
    Pastor Bob filed a lawsuit against son(s)..
    there was sworn testimony of abuse in a court of law ( transcripts were posted on the now down Calvary Chapel Abuse site)
    This has gone on for many years, with multiple levels of appeal, again there are public court documents
    Large sums of mone have been spent. Aligations that some of this money has come from Calvary Chapel… since there books are not public, this has not been verified…. in contrast, at all the churches i have attended, and given money, there is a public accounting of how the money is spent, and there would be a HUGE debat/stink if church money was spent sueing a brother,
    ..
    Alligations of police records dissapearing, or at least were not complete on statements of abuse were made. Again, this kind of stuff is not “private” any more…. when courts and question of police behavior is involved, we as citizens need to care….
    There were many accounts of abuse, not involving the Granier sons that were presented by people on the Calvary Chapel abuse blog that have now “gone away”. Some of these accounts/alligations of abuse are against the other Calvary Chapel preachers that are part of the “celebration” of the reconciliation.
    I have not heard of a “repentance” for the lawsuite.
    Etc..
    While muddy, i would assert that ALL cases of abuse are “muddy” to some degree…. if we were perfect humans, we could be “innocent” reporters of sin/abuse/etc…. but we are not. However, that does not mean we should remain silent…. This blog is not a court of law, it is a place to give voice to victims and those oppressed…. while democracy/ congragational rule is far from perfect, i would content that is current “stituation” has allot to do with the lavk of accountability in the CC system…..

  115. Regarding your points:

    2) Love does not keep a record of evil, but we’re commanded to be “wise as serpents and gentle as doves.” We’re also told to not be like “a dog returning to its vomit,” repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

    3) We’re well aware that there are two sides to every story. Our mission here is documenting the one that rarely gets the voice: the one of the congregant.

    4) If it’s so complicated, you can feel free to spell it out. We’ve been there. That’s why we’re in the Spiritual Abuse Blogging ministry.

    5) No, but there is nothing new under the sun, and we’ve been through enough spiritual abuse scenarios to know that this doesn’t pass the smell test.

    6) No, but goodness and faithfulness is, and a commitment to truth fulfills both of those things. We’re commanded not to give what is sacred to dogs. That’s not suspicion, that’s wisdom.

    7) No one has inferred that they’re liars–they’re inferring that they may be under duress. There’s a HUGE difference, and if you don’t understand that difference, we have all the more reason not to trust you.

    8) Well, then the truth would certainly help defend against false accusations, wouldn’t it?

    9) Why not?

    10) That’s not what we do here, and you’d know that if you spent any time at all among us. You don’t know us either, or our motivations, but I’d be happy to speak with you at XianJaneway@gmail.com any time you like, or on Twitter @xianjaneway.

    Finally, the fact that we don’t know you has no bearing on the discussion. If you only want your ministry to be within the four walls of your church, then only the people who are *in* the church should hear your words & hold you accountable. If you *ever* venture beyond those four walls, the any believer that you teach or influence, through the media or the internet, has every right to hold you accountable.

    Frankly, had you not posted here, I would have believed Dee, and not bothered commenting, but what you posted *stinks* of deception and self-interest. Dee, I wouldn’t scrub this in a million years.

    fBob Grenier wrote:

    Hello. This is Bob Grenier, Alex and Paul’s father.
    #1. Love believes and hopes all things.
    #2. Love does not keep a record of evil.
    #3. There are 2 sides to every story. See Prov 18:17
    #4. As with any family matter, they are usually very complicated.
    #5. Most of the people posting here have never met our family, or our church body.
    #6. Suspicion is not a gift of the Spirit.
    #7. At first everyone believed Alex and Paul, and now many are calling or inferring that they are liars.
    #8. Jesus talked about false accusations being a reality in life.
    #9. Gayle and I have never defended ourselves in the public venue of social media.
    #10. It’s always interesting to me, that people believe every bad report by someone about a church, or its pastor, but no one ever seems to acknowledge that a congregant may have had issues themselves. Many of the NT epistles, if not most were written to correct congregations, not pastors. But, pastors are always assumed to be guilty, rather than innocent until proven guilty.
    #11. As to why my son Paul was not in the video. He was in NYC, on business, and could not be with us.
    #12. His letter explains what he did and why he did what he did, Just as Alex explains in the video.

    Anyways, I could go on, but thought the above might be of some help to some folks. It’s food for thought.
    Again if you for some reason can’t sleep over all this, even though we do not know each other, and probably never will this side of heaven, and if you are so troubled that you feel talking with me would help, I’m all ears and, would enjoy speaking with you and praying with you.

    In His Strong Grip
    Pastor Bob Grenier

  116. Bob Grenier wrote:

    @ Doubtful:

    Bob Grenier wrote:

    Hi Doubtrul. It’s Bob Grenier. … I have found that often times the tone of the text does not accurately reflect the tone of the heart. Additionally, on this venue one never knows who they are talking to.
    @ Doubtful:

    I’ve led an anonymous internet ministry for three years. No one but carefully selected friends and colleagues know my identity, because it’s not the person or the personality that counts here: it’s the truth. It’s the idea. It’s the Word of God, not the word of Whoever I Happen To Be.

    If you claim to speak for God, and God Himself chose to speak through the written word, then I’m absolutely sure you can interact with anyone here through writing and faithfully communicate. Your heart and intent.

  117. Dave A A wrote:

    Darlene wrote:

    Today is Good Friday

    But Easter’s on the way!
    I just saw that the local churches are planning a sunrise service at the nearby Christian camp. I thought I’d go, but right now it looks like a Christmas Bing would dream of (if you get my “drift”). Maybe God will kindly put the snow on pause for a few hours (or months).

    Oh my gosh!! Where do you live? Move down here to the sweet sunny South! It’s gorgeous here in NC. Gonna be in the ’80s tomorrow.

    When we lived in Vermont, we used to say, “The white Christmases are wonderful. But we can live without the white Easters.”

  118. @ brian:

    Brian, you are infinitely precious to Jesus, Who died for you because of His fathomless love for you. You are loved and prayed for.

  119. Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

    Oh my gosh!! Where do you live? Move down here to the sweet sunny South! It’s gorgeous here in NC. Gonna be in the ’80s tomorrow.

    In the Rocky Mountains. The sun is out this morning and it’s a balmy 30 degrees. The pines are green, the mountains are white, and there’s not one bloomin’ bloom in sight. I’ll be thinking of y’all in a few months when we’re having dry ’80s with 0 chance of hurricane.

  120. Dave A A wrote:

    In the Rocky Mountains. The sun is out this morning and it’s a balmy 30 degrees. The pines are green, the mountains are white, and there’s not one bloomin’ bloom in sight. I’ll be thinking of y’all in a few months when we’re having dry ’80s with 0 chance of hurricane.

    Ahhhh, it’s 3:30 pm and 81 degrees in Todd County Kentucky, mostly cloudy. Buttercups and redwood blooms have gone by, dogwood and narcissus are in full bloom …. trees are leaving and pollen is high …… my irises are beginning to bloom. We had a shower of rain a little while ago ….. I sat on the front porch and watched the rain fall…. the dogs went for a swim in the pond. Beautiful day!
    But, in July and August, when we hit 98 in the shade with 85% humidity, I may be wishing I was in the Rockies!

  121. Nancy2 wrote:

    But, in July and August, when we hit 98 in the shade with 85% humidity, I may be wishing I was in the Rockies!

    I’ll take a swim in the cold mountain lakes of western Massachussetts ….. beautiful and refreshing in the heat 🙂

    We have a beautiful country, in all of its great diversity.

  122. Christiane wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    But, in July and August, when we hit 98 in the shade with 85% humidity, I may be wishing I was in the Rockies!

    I’ll take a swim in the cold mountain lakes of western Massachussetts ….. beautiful and refreshing in the heat

    We have a beautiful country, in all of its great diversity.

    Try 103 with 95% humidity.

  123. This is off topic but a family member found Facebook posts by a Debbie Haeittch-Cooper making nasty claims that I am scamming on the the gofundme. This woman is the mother of my sons Perpetrator she lives in the same community as I do and if she’s facebooking this claim she’s spreading it in the community. This claim was made on April 1st and commenters were telling her to report me in which she replied that she did when the gofundme was at 2,000 she complained that gofundme did nothing. I’m making this public since I have no other way right now to vindicate myself from this vicious claim. It is vicious in that it means my child was never raped. This woman just won’t stop with her lies and she refuses to acknowledge the fact that her son confessed to the crime took a guilty plea in order to avoid trial and went into a sex offender program. Dee set this gofundme up and it was a gracious thing for her to do. What happened to us is what compelled her to do a wonderful thing. This woman seems to believe that my issues with losing my cleaning jobs , our church, and having a work related problem with management means I am such a liar that this is coming back around to get me. I say NO WAY Debbie Haeittch-Cooper God is still sustaining us He loves us that gofundme is all Him and these believers here support billy 100%
    When victims are victimized it’s right to say sorry to acknowledge the offense to do what is right. You have not done these things nor have encouraged your adult son to take responsibility which in my opinion you and lakeside bible church the elders trained him to be a better preditor he is a rapist and you can not accept it! You raised a kid that unfortunately harmed another child and shows no remorse just said what he had to to get him and his family out of trouble. Shame on you for taking the opportunity away for your son to get help. Shame on you for leaving him with an unsuspecting mother and child when you knew what he was.
    This is to all those victimized don’t ever stop fighting and don’t ever shy away from the truth. True reconciliation comes but I believe that comes truly from the Lord moving in the life of the perpetrators. Change is not just seen on the outside but God can and does reveal the heart.
    I am struggling with intense anger over these new accusations.
    It adds insult to an already shattered heart. Lady (Debbie Haeittch-Cooper) you have no idea how badly my heart was shattered after what your son did what you encouraged the church to do by your lies and ultimately ken taking away my work. I have audio of members saying it and I have text messages stating from members themselves that they are were cutting my services because of your lies!!! I don’t need to scam anyone. I believe I went above and beyond showing medical records and your sons plea deal emails from ken and so forth. You need to retract your statements immediately!!!!!!
    Sorry everyone I think this was important it is an attack on me but Dee as well. She would never start or continue a gofundme if she did not believe the truth in this matter!

  124. Texas is hit with humidity but it’s not bad yet thanking the LordI fear a cage wrote:

    Christiane wrote:

    Nancy2 wrote:

    But, in July and August, when we hit 98 in the shade with 85% humidity, I may be wishing I was in the Rockies!

    I’ll take a swim in the cold mountain lakes of western Massachussetts ….. beautiful and refreshing in the heat

    We have a beautiful country, in all of its great diversity.

    Try 103 with 95% humidity.

  125. Not wishing to resurrect a thread (pardon the Easter reference).

    But, wanted to say thanks to Dee and Deb for running the Reconciliation video and story. I love my parents and my brothers, all is forgiven and our family is healing.

    There is no blog post I can write that will satisfy some of you and I won’t try to do so. The situation is very complex and nuanced and I have given detailed explanations privately to Michael, Dee, Deb and Julie Anne b/c they stuck their necks out and were heavily invested in this story. Jeff Chalmers, you know how to get ahold of me sir, you and I talked many times and I would give you the same private discussion.

    Others, no offense, but I regret going public and making it your business from a voyeuristic investment (not directed at everyone). If you know me beyond a blog comment, then you know how to get ahold of me and I’d be happy to talk with you privately.

    Is the video “marketing”? Yes, to a degree, and I think that’s a good thing if the message and heart and intent is good. I wanted to do the video and to do two other speaking appearances to help my parents and their church rehab their image and clear my Dad’s name. And, I don’t think it “wrong” for him to want to clear his name. He has reached out to several privately to apologize to them. After hearing both sides of the stories and seeing a lot of evidence, depositions, and seeing people not testify after they sent emails and made blog posts, and after seeing people change their stories to authorities and seeing others water it way down in depositions and even recantations, I have learned a hard and expensive lesson about “sources” and human nature. My Dad is innocent of sexual abuse and of the financial accusations and he and his church suffered a LOT for those false claims and I regret reporting it.

    Courts ruled clearly and solidly that pastors are private figures unless they are hugely known like Rick Warren or Billy Graham types. I’m a private figure, so are my brothers. I want to keep my family issue private now and it is resolved. The video speaks for itself, and so does a recent Fresno Bee article that reports the story well IMO.

    That’s all I’ll say on here other than thanks to TWW for reporting what is now good news and reflects the heart of the Gospel message, repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation.

  126. Ooops, one last thing, there was no “settlement” in terms of money changing hands, there was a realization from seeing all the evidence and reading the transcripts of reports from authorities and reading depositions and reading and processing recantations etc that my Dad was innocent of the charges that others made that I reported broadly, and he and my mom and his church were devastated by those false reports.

    I called my Dad and apologized for going public with a private family matter and then championing the false claims of others. He forgave me and dropped the lawsuit with no conditions. I do all of this b/c I want to help him and my mom and I want to repair what I can and help them finish well. That won’t satisfy some of you, you’ll want a detailed laundry list of specifics and a check-list to go down and that isn’t going to happen. The situation is resolved and there is mutual forgiveness and reconciliation all the way around. Some won’t like that and want more. Sorry, that’s not going to happen for anonymous online commenters and those who this situation hasn’t cost them a thing.

  127. Alex I don’t believe anyone here wants anything bad towards you or your parents. I sure don’t. You see my name here that is my real name and I am not anonymous! Your accusations went all the way to police reports and the courts. Your actions as well as your parents gave consequences. Your claims were so serious in nature and others supported your claims. This isn’t just one son making false claims. So if other believers are questioning the authenticity or sincerity of this reconciliation I believe they should until they see change of some sort. Your dad is a pastor and he is a public figure he is doubly accountable due to his position and clearly had no control over his household. There are things going on with in his church that are sketchy other claims of misconduct on his part. It doesn’t mean he’s not worthy of forgiveness as well as you but give sons a break here. You can’t just say sorry and it all goes back to normal business as usual. Your story was posted here. To scrub it is to rewrite history or act as if it never happened. Again I think it is right for you to be restored back to your family but to be honest I’m offended that you made those false claims as my child is a victim of rape. I’m dealing with a church and a family who continually call us liars as if we would make up such a horrific thing. I had to post publicly court records medical records because our former pastor uses his pulpit and standing in our community to slander my child for reporting his rape! If your claims are in fact false then it makes it difficult for others to believe victims because that’s the first thing perpetrators say is they are making it up even the community does this. I’m not taking lightly your reconciliation with your father but I’m also not taking lightly the retraction and the hurrying to get your claims removed. I don’t believe for one minute those here wish bad for you or your family but just as victims claims are questioned we have a right to question whether this is true give the claims by others outside your family. My sons perpetrator his mother are using social media to hurl more outrageous claims and to diminish what my child endured. A little sensitivity to those questioning you and your family might go along way with whartburgers here.

  128. Then file a lawsuit and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and all your time for many years on it and leave me out of it. I’ve learned my lesson and frankly I don’t know whether to believe you or not, you have your side of the story and the other person has theirs and the legal process would eventually sort it out, but you better have hundreds of thousands of dollars and a lot of free time on your hands.

    My advice to you is to forgive and move on if the authorities have looked into your situation and made some sort of determination.

  129. Sorry Alex but your situation may not have cost others anything but in our case it costs my son because you lied it places doubt in others as to whether my sons abuse is real. You have court records as do we and whose to say others will not doubt or call my child a liar because you made claims of sexual abuse and are retracting those statements. So please don’t say it costs no one nothing it does affect victims whose claims are 100% true! My sons rape cost everything. We are called liars, my son is called a homosexual , sexual deviant, we are now being called scammers, and much more. My baby lost his innocence his sense of feeling safe, his reputation in this community, he has severe night terrors still , he still looks for his perpetrator when we are out wondering if he’s going to get him for telling, my son has serious ptsd my personal relationships were taken my customers taken out under church discipline there was struggle before his assault but the struggle has been much more since. God is good as He continues to be faithful in times of trial and the whartburgers here are the ones who have supported my son believe my son and go out of their way to love unconditionally. Dee and Deb have amazing readers an amazing community here of believers

  130. You’re wrong, you don’t understand the situation and that’s the last I’ll say to you on here. Remember I am a private figure. Leave me and my family alone and don’t cross any major lines. Get a lawyer and fight your battle regarding your son. If you’re telling the truth then the legal process will help sort it out.

  131. Blogs are terrible venue to hold court. I’ve learned that lesson. Don’t do it. (directed at the general public)

  132. @ Shauna:
    The first thing I thought when I read this article is how it would affect current and future victims.

    If Alex and his dad had wanted it private, it would be private. But they had a big Calvery Chapel style celebration then begged blogs to delete the history. Then the Calvery Chapel expastor dad comes here and lectures as if none of us know scripture. CC has had quite a few black eye scandals recently and there is nothing like producing and marketing a big Jesus moment to keep the money flowing.

    Alex can do what he wants but what he did not do was make sure it was private. He would have done best to keep it quiet for several years to the public. I am all about reconciliation but the way this was handled “publicly”, communicates something else. And it is not going to help current or future victims. The Greneirs cannot become the face of abuse/abuser reconciliation in the church. God help us. The tyranny of reconciliation Calvery Chapel style.

    Shauna, you are right to be very concerned. Frankly, it stinks to high heaven.

  133. Anon1 thank you, I believe in light of this situation and comment I was very gracious to Alex however I can’t say he returned the gesture. In regards to suing and fighting for my son I am fighting for my son! Everyday in fact. I know enough of your situation to form an opinion which you are entitled to not agree with. It was you Alex who went public with a vicious lie and it is your father who filed a very public lawsuit against his children. Neither you your father or anyone is in a position to lecture anyone here about scripture ,lawsuits, and reconciling. Because if you are truly reconciled then actions on both sides will reflect the peace between you. You came to these blogs and made things very public so don’t lecture me or my son on going public when you yourself are doing it again. You may not like the backlash or the questioning regarding whether this is a true reconciliation or to boost the church. Even Dee and Deb expected there to be serious reservations from whartburgers about your new claims. Heck your family is going on t.v. With this do if it was private you would deal with it privately I think your statements to me are a bit hypocritical. Again i did not attack you or your family but I did tell you that my name is not private and that your lies offended me and my son as you claimed sexual abuse and now say you lied about that. What did you an your family expect? Hugs and kisses and no accountability from public opinion Christian or non Christian? I’m sorry but this is public and you are adding fuel to an open flame. If your reconciliation is true and it seems people want to give you the benefit of the doubt however rebuking and lecturing those here is not the way to go about it. Your situation is not private as you and your family have been very public about the claims , the lies, the court records, police records, the media, and now the blogs. You made this public not us. Telling me not to cross any lines seriously? I have crossed nothing you came here publicly and I as a reader, poster, and being one of the stories blogged about by Dee and Deb am free to give my comments, statements, and opinions. You may not like what I say but you also don’t have to respond or read them. I m not the one on the attack here. In regards to your statement IF my son was abused get a lawyer!!!! Did everyone here read that? I don’t appreciate your comment and I’m choosing not to respond to it. I will let others read your post on what you just said.
    In my opinion whether your upset or not about the response in regards to your very public lies you are in no position to get puffed up and attack, lecture, or offer anything other than I’m sorry that my untrue statements may have caused harm to other victims in not being believed. Instead you come across angry and pointing a finger as if we caused these issues and not you. You are right we do not know you or the entire situation however what we do know from what you all put out there makes this whole thing appear to be fake. I don’t know if it’s true reconciliation and my hope is that it is only time will tell but your responses are very telling. Dee and Deb are great to give you and your family the benefit of the doubt. I hope they are right in their assessment of this situation. I believe they try to do the right thing always. In spite of that some of us may not see it the way they see this situation right now. I appreciate them giving us an opportunity to express our opinions and statements. getsAnon1 wrote:

    @ Shauna:
    The first thing I thought when I read this article is how it would affect current and future victims.

    If Alex and his dad had wanted it private, it would be private. But they had a big Calvery Chapel style celebration then begged blogs to delete the history. Then the Calvery Chapel expastor dad comes here and lectures as if none of us know scripture. CC has had quite a few black eye scandals recently and there is nothing like producing and marketing a big Jesus moment to keep the money flowing.

    Alex can do what he wants but what he did not do was make sure it was private. He would have done best to keep it quiet for several years to the public. I am all about reconciliation but the way this was handled “publicly”, communicates something else. And it is not going to help current or future victims. The Greneirs cannot become the face of abuse/abuser reconciliation in the church. God help us. The tyranny of reconciliation Calvery Chapel style.

    Shauna, you are right to be very concerned. Frankly, it stinks to high heaven.

  134. Um, it’s not possible to ‘scrub the internet’ – once it’s there, it’s there. Might take a little longer to dig out but consider any post that you have ever made as saved – somewhere.

  135. Alex wrote:

    I don’t know whether to believe you or not, you have your side of the story and the other person has theirs …
    My advice to you is to forgive and move on if the authorities have looked into your situation and made some sort of determination.

    TWW published Alex’s story in good faith, and commenters reacted in good faith. Now that TWW has agreed to remove the story, two members of the Grenier family have come here to criticize us, and even question the veracity of an unrelated TWW story of child r@pe.

    The following would be a more attractive message from the Greniers: “A member of our family has recanted a story that TWW covered in good faith. We understand why people believed the story, why they are angry about the deceit, and why they are suspicious of our request that the story be removed. False allegations of this kind are rare. Our experience should not be used in any way to discredit anyone who has been sexually or spiritually abused in a church or family setting. We fully accept that our experience might make it harder for actual victims in other cases to tell their stories and find justice, through the courts or otherwise. Finally, although we might not seem to deserve privacy, we would appreciate it as we struggle to heal and move forward.”

  136. Thank you friend for your post that is gracious and would soften this blow to Alex and his family had it been approached like the way you just put it. No one is looking to cause any harm to them or anyone with questioning them. That’s all I will say I believe you hit the nail on the head with your comment.

  137. @ Alex:

    If people could call back their words, many people would do it. Some helpful Jewish wisdom to think about:

    “A Chasidic tale vividly illustrates the danger of improper speech: A man went about the community telling malicious lies about the rabbi. Later, he realized the wrong he had done, and began to feel remorse. He went to the rabbi and begged his forgiveness, saying he would do anything he could to make amends. The rabbi told the man, “Take a feather pillow, cut it open, and scatter the feathers to the winds.” The man thought this was a strange request, but it was a simple enough task, and he did it gladly. When he returned to tell the rabbi that he had done it, the rabbi said, “Now, go and gather the feathers. Because you can no more make amends for the damage your words have done than you can recollect the feathers.”

    Speech has been compared to an arrow: once the words are released, like an arrow, they cannot be recalled, the harm they do cannot be stopped, and the harm they do cannot always be predicted, for words like arrows often go astray. “

  138. @ dee:
    Dee, I am concerned about the tone of this comment that Alex posted to Shauna on Mon Apr 17, 2017 at 02:56 PM:

    “Remember I am a private figure. Leave me and my family alone and don’t cross any major lines.”

    Shauna has done nothing to this man’s family. There’s a whiff of threat here. Unfortunate, given what you are trying to do for the Greniers.

  139. @ Friend:
    I also felt that this was an attempt to intimidate her. It was an unfortunate comment, but in a way, it shows more about Alex than we knew before.

    People’s own words are revealing. That was a strange comment, yes.

  140. I think it actually *is* a threat.

    Dee, I hope you will seriously consider *not* scrubbing the previous posts, for many reasons. Some recent comments here very much included. I find the insistence that posts be expunged suspect; a disclaimer would be more than enough. It’s your blog, not the Grenier family’s, after all, and yes, it is actual news.

  141. In other words: do they have veto power over all past posts about them? The whole thing seems extreme suspect to me.

  142. Alex wrote:

    You’re wrong, you don’t understand the situation and that’s the last I’ll say to you on here. Remember I am a private figure. Leave me and my family alone and don’t cross any major lines. Get a lawyer and fight your battle regarding your son. If you’re telling the truth then the legal process will help sort it out.

    Flag on the play! I think at this point the waters are so muddied that I’ve become convinced of only one thing, the credibility of all involved is now suspect.

    And unfortunately that includes TWW. TWW gets full marks for transparency and without a doubt they’ve done some great reporting but in this case the ball’s been fumbled. For what it’s worth, I think this is a case of good intentions gone a little awry but hey, it’s their party, I’m just a guest.

    To TWW’s credit however they have allowed a lively debate on this very clouded case and have not cut any comments that comply with the blog rules but the complete about face on the entire case is unprecedented – including all of the questionable church dealings that are not related to the lawsuit.

    Talk about Christian Trends – boom, this whole story encapsulates a lot of the issues with celebrity Christianity.

    As I mentioned before this is however a blog not a news feed so of course I always take what’s stated more as editorial than “hard news”.

    That video was playing to the house, I can see it was intended for Calvary Chapel and as I mentioned before the overwrought emotionalism might just be evangelical affectation. I say nothing about the sincerity of it. It could very well be.

    Alex brought this to the public not Shauna. Given her experience with spiritual abuse, I have no doubt that this story hit a very raw nerve. I think this commentary was fine up until this point but has now blown past a line. Maybe in the evangelical pastor world where your word is law among your flock you can drop bombs like this but I’m calling it. This is very off.

    If Alex regrets what he did and he’s reconciled with his family and the family church then bully for him but there’s no way you can shut it down and say what happened wasn’t public! It’s public record not just on these blogs but in the media and the courts. It’s going to be the stinking bag of dog poo that’s going to have to be lived with. That’s life online. Deal.

  143. @ numo:

    I was thinking of you today! Was going to contact Dee to see if she had heard from you. I hope you have been well. Miss your comments.

  144. I just saw this. Wow you crossed a line here. Get over it move on ? Ya that’s exactly what our former pastor said just weeks after my son was violently raped! Move on get over it! Your words reflect a lot more and I’m just stunned!!!!!! I actually went back to read again what I posted to make sure I didn’t say anything offensive and some how missed this statement of yours. Wow wow wow ugliness , ungodly, unloving, cold hearted and so much more. In regards to lawsuits and money spent if you took the time to ask who I am and what happened to my child recently you wouldn’t speak so foolishly. You have no idea what steps I took and the fact that you don’t care to find out before you insert your foot in your mouth says a lot about you and this entire situation. I believe I’m being very kind by the way with my words and I’m holding back. I’m holding back out of respect to Dee and Deb the blog and those here. I have been here long enough to have exercise an opinion in this community. People here know our story what we went through and how transparent we have been. By the way the state of Texas did make a ruling “GUILTY ” of two counts of aggravated sexual assault in the second degree for my sons perpetrator. I do not need to defend our position at all nor do I need to get lectured by you on lawsuits or how much it cost. That is all I’m going to say others can read your statements and mine and they are more than capable of forming their own opinion.
    By the way it seems to me like your blaming those who witnessed your abuse as ones who misreported or muddied the waters. No sir you did by making false claims and filing false police reports. I don’t care what your reasons were you did it and now there are consequences beyond your family and church that others may not believe you or your family. Alex wrote:

    Then file a lawsuit and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and all your time for many years on it and leave me out of it. I’ve learned my lesson and frankly I don’t know whether to believe you or not, you have your side of the story and the other person has theirs and the legal process would eventually sort it out, but you better have hundreds of thousands of dollars and a lot of free time on your hands.

    My advice to you is to forgive and move on if the authorities have looked into your situation and made some sort of determination.

  145. Jack wrote:

    Alex brought this to the public not Shauna. Given her experience with spiritual abuse, I have no doubt that this story hit a very raw nerve. I think this commentary was fine up until this point but has now blown past a line. Maybe in the evangelical pastor world where your word is law among your flock you can drop bombs like this but I’m calling it. This is very off.

    If Alex regrets what he did and he’s reconciled with his family and the family church then bully for him but there’s no way you can shut it down and say what happened wasn’t public! It’s public record not just on these blogs but in the media and the courts. It’s going to be the stinking bag of dog poo that’s going to have to be lived with. That’s life online. Deal.

    I agree. These last two comments from Alex go over line. I had left well enough alone and gave the family the benefit of the doubt, but something is off now.

    Shauna has not gone over the line. I agree with Shauna that Alex lying about his abuse so publicly does cause people not to trust real victims of abuse. Whether or not Alex wants to admit this fact, it is a fact nonetheless.

    The entire storyline is suspect to me now. But, hey, it’s a good “witness” in the Calvary church world now isn’t it.

  146. Oops! I meant to say two counts of aggravated sexual assault in the 1st degree. according to Mr Braumberger, the D.A. who handled my son's case and advocated for him.

    This crime is one step down from capital murder in the nature and severity of the crime! There are many who have experienced abuse whether it's this or long term. Victims are victims. They hurt, they cry, they live with what was done to them, and no one grieves more than a mother and father who lives to love and protect these precious kids who suffered at the hands of abusers.

    I am one of those parents deeply connected to her child, and I am my son's warrior. I stand with him and in front of him until he can stand up for himself.

  147. This post has turned into a mess and I am struggling with the whole thing. I need some time to think.
    In the meantime, my power cord stopped working and I am about to lose power (This is real not an excuse.) I will by a new one on the AM. Sorry about all of this.

  148. @ Alex:
    Please be kind and let this go. I am complying with a very difficult request. You will have to learn to deal with the sentiments about this. The pain of this situation extends far beyond your family.

  149. @ Bridget:
    Oh, I’ve been around, but not here. The last 100+ days have been so stressful that coming here to read about further abuses just wasn’t something I could do. Nor, i think, will i be around much, due to continuing current events. I don’t read news for several hours prior to bed as it is, in order to clear my head. But another longtime reader mentioned this post + comments to me and i decided to see for myself. You folks have been on my mind and i miss you. Hoping that the future brings better days for everyone.

  150. Dee I’m sorry if I caused you any grief through my posts about this. It certainly wasn’t my intention. I hope everything you hope for by allowing these posts will come to fruition.

  151. dee wrote:

    This post has turned into a mess and I am struggling with the whole thing. I need some time to think.

    I think your post was gracious. It was good..as is. It was very nice.
    Two family members have been able to present a defense of their reputations, and it is what it is.
    There is something off about this situation, but those who chose to attend that particular CC do so of their own free will. Others of us can be glad we do not.

  152. Thanks for all the kind very helpful words things look much brighter today. I hope everyone has a very nice week.

  153. I’m not God, to know what’s going on behind the scenes, and I don’t claim to. But this I know to be true, no matter what the names of the people involved are: when you make false claims, and your actions muddle up things so that others are encouraged to treat true victims’ reports as sham, a little humility (to say the least) is in order. More than a little humility! And part of true repentance is owning up to all the implications and consequences of your conduct (which was obviously public, not private, and affected lots of people).

  154. “Bob Grenier:
    I asked him if there was anything he would like me to convey to our readers. Here is what he emphasized to me.
    Yes, we are reconciled. The lawsuit was dismissed without any conditions. All accusations have been withdrawn. Both Alex and Paul have apologized for what they did. And our family is back together again.
    Focus on the Family is considering an interview. CSN is going to run this (ed. note-the video below) on 450 radio stations, and a number of other radio stations will be airing a ready made program of the audio. Two TV stations in Denver will be running this as well.”

    Adding the above to the CC event celebration a few months ago, just does not match the pleas about this now being private. It comes off as millieu control. as does only wanting to discuss it one one one but at the same time having their say in public. Perhaps I am missing the connection? It seemed important to dad to mention the proposed media plan attention

    Maybe this could be a case study on how not to do reconciliation when it seems to have been fabricated and many were taken for a ride. Let us pray this reconciliation production media event strategy is not used on other victims as an example to follow.

    Reconciliation does not need advertising, radio programs and staged events. It looks more and more like the request to erase blog history’s is really part of the overall professional media plan to rewrite history. I am wondering if a crisis image management firm is involved at this point.

    The main thing I have learned is that we should take into consideration that like SGM, there seem to be patterns of serious dysfunction within the leadership of Calvery Chapel and Alex grew up in that world.

    A lot of people believed Alex– for his sake. That is why what he wrote to Shauna is so illustrative at this point.

    Shauna, hang in there. It sounds like you are rebuilding you and your son’s life from ashes. You are probably one of the strongest I have seen in terms of losing everything from trust, livelihood, innocence and still standing strong, not giving up and standing up to the abusers and their fellow travelers from church. Betrayal from “Christians” is devastating. You are an inspiration to me. I am praying for your provision and courage.

  155. dee wrote:

    This post has turned into a mess and I am struggling with the whole thing. I need some time to think.
    In the meantime, my power cord stopped working and I am about to lose power (This is real not an excuse.) I will by a new one on the AM. Sorry about all of this.

    I think we all want to believe in white hats & black hats. In this case everyone is wearing grey. You were’victim focused’ and that’s a good thing.

  156. To all

    I think I have come up with a solution to this situation which should somewhat satisfy most folks. First, we cannot scrub the posts at the moment because of our blog overhaul. It will happen in about two weeks.

    At that time, I am going to write a new post, covering the original situation, my thoughts on what happened this past week, and the reader response to all of this.

    Last night, when my power cord died, I had just enough time to know that I was deeply disturbed by Alex’s interaction on this blog. This is not what I hoped for. Reconciliation means just that-not striking out at people who supported Alex and brother in their time of need.And striking out at Shauna? Someone who has been through terrible abuse at the hands of her church. No! No way!

    I am on my way to take my mother to the doctor’s and will comment more this evening. Any further unkind comments by Alex will be removed and he will be put into permanent moderation.

    This blog exists to support the abused and we will NOT allow anyone, including victims, abuse the good readers of this blog.

    You can be sure I have learned much through this. It will result in some changes to our rules on this blog that will be for the best. They will include expectations for those who post their stories here.

    Thank you all for bearing with us as we have tried to figure out how to do the right thing. We appreciate ALL of your comments and suggestions and have taken them to heart.

    I have been bit under the weather due to starting methotrexate. I am being removed from the oral dosage because it has been causing daily vomiting and nausea. I will be put on an injectable form of it which does not cause severe nausea.

    Also, tomorrow, we are going to have to put our dear Petunia to sleep. She taught me so much about how to help her recuperate from her serious abuse. She has lived a happy and safe life with us but the early abuse put much stress on her little body. I am totally sad. Thankfully, I have Lilly and Tulip to console me.

    We don’t deserve these dogs. They are so loving and bring much joy to our lives.

  157. Well, I think I will remain confident in my belief that the truth will always out eventually. And in these cases, it always seems to be sooner rather than later.

    I hope dee and Deb continue to follow the Spirit’s leading in how they handle situations like this.

  158. Bridget wrote:

    I agree with Shauna that Alex lying about his abuse so publicly

    I also agree with Shauna. Just a small correction– I’ve not heard Alex retract anything about his own abuse. Rather, he apologized for spreading the false reports of others.

  159. OK, let’s stop this. Dee and I don’t have time to moderate this closely this afternoon.

    No more calling folks liars or any other personal attacks. Especially those based on “belief”.

  160. dee wrote:

    Also, tomorrow, we are going to have to put our dear Petunia to sleep. She taught me so much about how to help her recuperate from her serious abuse. She has lived a happy and safe life with us but the early abuse put much stress on her little body. I am totally sad.

    I’m sorry the meds are causing so much trouble for you. I hope the injectable form has the desired results with no problems.
    Petunia. …… I understand.
    I hope that the joy she brought to your life and the comfort and love you gave to her outweighs the sadness. No regrets!

  161. Dee thank you Anon1 thank you all of you inspire me. Alex I’m sorry if my words offended you. I certainly don’t wish for hurt on you or your family. This stuff is tuff to navigate im sure. I’m sure you didn’t mean to create doubt for other victims this is just a ripple effect false accusations can create. I don’t know if this reconciliation with you and your family is real. Boy I am rooting for you that it is. I have reservations about it but if you and your family are being completely transparent then everything in this situation will reflect that God has intervened and the doubts the questioning will be answered to those of us that are having them. I made a mistake in mentioning names on the other post. I should have thought that through and held my thoughts. That wasn’t fare and I’m glad Dee and Deb can remove my mistake. I to like you can mess up. It was great of you to take personal ownership of your situation. I truly wish you the best in your reconciliation. I have more to say on this as I still have doubts but I reserve my thoughts for later. dee wrote:

    To all

    I think I have come up with a solution to this situation which should somewhat satisfy most folks. First, we cannot scrub the posts at the moment because of our blog overhaul. It will happen in about two weeks.

    At that time, I am going to write a new post, covering the original situation, my thoughts on what happened this past week, and the reader response to all of this.

    Last night, when my power cord died, I had just enough time to know that I was deeply disturbed by Alex’s interaction on this blog. This is not what I hoped for. Reconciliation means just that-not striking out at people who supported Alex and brother in their time of need.And striking out at Shauna? Someone who has been through terrible abuse at the hands of her church. No! No way!

    I am on my way to take my mother to the doctor’s and will comment more this evening. Any further unkind comments by Alex will be removed and he will be put into permanent moderation.

    This blog exists to support the abused and we will NOT allow anyone, including victims, abuse the good readers of this blog.

    You can be sure I have learned much through this. It will result in some changes to our rules on this blog that will be for the best. They will include expectations for those who post their stories here.

    Thank you all for bearing with us as we have tried to figure out how to do the right thing. We appreciate ALL of your comments and suggestions and have taken them to heart.

    I have been bit under the weather due to starting methotrexate. I am being removed from the oral dosage because it has been causing daily vomiting and nausea. I will be put on an injectable form of it which does not cause severe nausea.

    Also, tomorrow, we are going to have to put our dear Petunia to sleep. She taught me so much about how to help her recuperate from her serious abuse. She has lived a happy and safe life with us but the early abuse put much stress on her little body. I am totally sad. Thankfully, I have Lilly and Tulip to console me.

    We don’t deserve these dogs. They are so loving and bring much joy to our lives.

  162. Alex wrote:

    Courts ruled clearly and solidly that pastors are private figures unless they are hugely known like Rick Warren or Billy Graham types. I’m a private figure, so are my brothers. I want to keep my family issue private now and it is resolved. The video speaks for itself, and so does a recent Fresno Bee article that reports the story well IMO.

    You are incorrect.

    When you entered the legal fray that became a public record and it’s all open for discussion.

  163. dee wrote:

    I have been bit under the weather due to starting methotrexate. I am being removed from the oral dosage because it has been causing daily vomiting and nausea. I will be put on an injectable form of it which does not cause severe nausea.
    Also, tomorrow, we are going to have to put our dear Petunia to sleep. She taught me so much about how to help her recuperate from her serious abuse. She has lived a happy and safe life with us but the early abuse put much stress on her little body. I am totally sad. Thankfully, I have Lilly and Tulip to console me.

    Oh no, Dee!

    I am so sorry that you will have to put your beloved pet down.

    And I’m sorry for the grief the medication has been giving you.

  164. Wow, I have learned a lot about this very imperfect venue (blogs). You guys are so off (directed at a few of the commenters who don’t know the situation and are speculating).

    Just proves what I’ve learned. Don’t hold court on the blogs, it’s more imperfect than the churches some of you commenters criticize over and over and over.

  165. Dee and Deb mean well, but many of these situations are very complex and they are in an impossible position. If you scrub it, do it for my parents who were falsely accused, don’t do it for me. If you need a villain, I’m your huckleberry (to you cheap-seat commenters).

  166. unfortunately, some of you will learn the hard way, i can tell you are angry, unforgiving, etc and love trouble and conflict and assuming the worst.

    God will deal with you, i know.

    This thread isn’t producing “good fruit”. I forgive you and I won’t respond anymore in kind b/c that is the dynamic in these sorts of threads and it is bad fruit and not Godly. Another lesson learned.

    Love, forgive, seek peace. Last comment on TWW and I wish you all well. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the answer and hanging on to bitterness, unforgiveness and being overly critical is not of the Lord, I’ve learned that the hard way. That and don’t believe everyone who says they were abused and much of what is called “spiritual abuse” is hurt feelings and pride b/c the pastor didn’t acquiesce to the wishes of the particular member. That’s the sad unfortunate human reality. It’s truly a mixed bag and blogs are imperfect in sorting it all out and just perpetuate negativity and bad fruit in my opinion, based on many years of being immersed in this dynamic. Not anymore. I repent. I hope some of you will swallow your pride and do likewise, for your own sake.

    Peace.

  167. The comments you make are revealing, and i don’t think are coming across in the way you intended. At all.

    “God will deal with you” especially.

  168. Whoa!!!!! okay I’m going to be peaceful here as A victim of spiritual abuse and my son a victim of child sex abuse by another member in our former church. This is ugly ugly ugly in called for especially in light of my apologizing if I had offended you with my words. My opinion on this matter is my opinion and I am entitled to have one just as you feel it necessary to bash others here myself included. If you don’t agree with it that’s ok you don’t have to and you don’t have to like it but because we are exercising our voices doesn’t give you the right lecture or give any advice in reference to Gods word regarding pride, false statements. It was your pride and your false accusations as a grown man who created your own mess and the mess in your parents home. You should as a mature adult expect doubt when you lied to begin with you didn’t just tell a little lie your lies had serious consequences and these are some of those consequences. You came to these blogs for help and now that you are experiencing rebuke and unbelief for the mess you created all of a sudden this had become a court or a place of prideful unloving unforgiving Christians spouting off whatever they want. You thought by saying the right things to Dee and the other bloggers you could smooze things over wipe away history your history regarding this matter. Some of the comments here triggered maybe a true nature of this situation and your true character. I hope Dee sees this and considers everything carefully. I trust these ladies here will do what the Lord leads them to do. They are caring and loving Christian ladies who I am privileged to know and have advocating for my son. Dee billy says hi and he has been reading these posts. He said ” mom Dee will do the right thing no matter what” love this kid. numo wrote:

    The comments you make are revealing, and i don’t think are coming across in the way you intended. At all.

    “God will deal with you” especially.

    Alex wrote:

    unfortunately, some of you will learn the hard way, i can tell you are angry, unforgiving, etc and love trouble and conflict and assuming the worst.

    God will deal with you, i know.

    This thread isn’t producing “good fruit”. I forgive you and I won’t respond anymore in kind b/c that is the dynamic in these sorts of threads and it is bad fruit and not Godly. Another lesson learned.

    Love, forgive, seek peace. Last comment on TWW and I wish you all well. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the answer and hanging on to bitterness, unforgiveness and being overly critical is not of the Lord, I’ve learned that the hard way. That and don’t believe everyone who says they were abused and much of what is called “spiritual abuse” is hurt feelings and pride b/c the pastor didn’t acquiesce to the wishes of the particular member. That’s the sad unfortunate human reality. It’s truly a mixed bag and blogs are imperfect in sorting it all out and just perpetuate negativity and bad fruit in my opinion, based on many years of being immersed in this dynamic. Not anymore. I repent. I hope some of you will swallow your pride and do likewise, for your own sake.

    Peace.

  169. dee – all sounds very tough (beloved canine friend- i’m so sorry-, nausea, stress from this blog post, caregiving).

    i send you my best supportive thoughts.

    (too weary and tired to pray a prayer of faith right now — as opposed to a prayer of wishing, or of perfunctory-ness. incapable of the latter 2, in the same way that i’m pretty averse to small talk. but i’ll explore any deep topic with someone all night long with bottomless beverages, music, low light, a cigar,…)

  170. Alex wrote:

    hat and don’t believe everyone who says they were abused and much of what is called “spiritual abuse” is hurt feelings and pride b/c the pastor didn’t acquiesce to the wishes of the particular member.

    This situation as presented was hardly spiritual abuse. Also, you may not want to be the harbinger of “blogs all lie because people lie.” That makes you and your brother out to be deliberate liars.You have hurt many people by your comment.

    Frankly, if you had left this alone, it would have gone away. Your intervention in this situation has only made matters much, much worse and is forcing me to take some actions that I had no intended in the beginning.

    Please stop it now.

  171. dee wrote:

    Last night, when my power cord died

    I used to joke that all printers are made with a “deadline sensor” that causes a malfunction right when a project has to go out the door. Over time it seemed to me that printer malfunctions were blessings in disguise, forcing our team to stop, take a deep breath, reassess, and work together calmly. You have so many challenges and hardships right now. I hope that you are finding time to step back and rest, whether or not because of a power cord.

  172. Dee, I’m very sorry to hear about Petunia, and i know a lot about how that feels, though i can’t begin to really understand how *you* feel right now, because I’m not you. Gentle hugs and skriches for the doggos; a big hug or three for you. Wish i could make it all go away, somehow.

    Equally sorry to hear about drug side effects as well as caregiving stresses and what you must be feeling over this situation. As to the last, it seems like it’s very much “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” to me.

    Sending a few quick and rather addled prayers, along with much love and all good wishes.

  173. As of now, Alex is in permanent moderation. I am no inclined to approve his comments unless he wishes to reconcile to our good readers. Such a sad, sad mess. I am sorry if any readers were unfairly attacked. Please chalk this up to much pain in the Grenier family at this time.

  174. @ numo:
    I have missed hearing from you but I understand. I am so glad to see your comment! You have always been so supportive.

  175. @ dee:
    Dee, you’ve been very much on my mind lately snd I’ve been meaning to write, call or both, but i do know that caregiving is often all-consuming by necessity, and haven’t wanted to intrude on your down time.

    Thanks so much for understanding, too. And while i cannot imagine the dilemma you’re facing, i have confidence that you’ll make good choices.

    As for you not deserving you sweet dogs, hey – you adopted special needs pups and have given them not only proper vet care but a happy, loving, and safe environment. Friendship and unconditional love, too. That’s awfully rare. Please don’t be hard on yourself. I’m sure you have gone above and beyond for Petunia, every step of the wsy – and that she knows it and is grateful.

  176. Alex wrote:

    God will deal with you, i know.

    No worries, I’m good. Got my Richard Dawkins Super Logic Action figure to keep me safe.

    And if all else fails, I can score, rum, a chicken & feathered rattle on short notice.

    Ack! My head dress is at the cleaners!

  177. dee wrote:

    I have been bit under the weather due to starting methotrexate. I am being removed from the oral dosage because it has been causing daily vomiting and nausea. I will be put on an injectable form of it which does not cause severe nausea.

    Also, tomorrow, we are going to have to put our dear Petunia to sleep. She taught me so much about how to help her recuperate from her serious abuse. She has lived a happy and safe life with us but the early abuse put much stress on her little body. I am totally sad. Thankfully, I have Lilly and Tulip to console me.

    We don’t deserve these dogs. They are so loving and bring much joy to our lives.

    So so sorry about Petunia 🙁 I know what that feels like. It is just, well, sad. I’m glad you have other pups to come home to.

    Dang medicine. Why can’t it just cooperate?

    Praying for strength, health, and comfort tomorrow and over the coming weeks.

  178. numo wrote:

    Ok, I’m with you on everything but the cigar. Could we substitute cheese instead?

    May I recommend the smoked gouda?

  179. Ohhh Dee I’m so sorry. Those little ones hit the lottery when you got them. So glad they have spent time in a loving home likes yours after being abused. I hope your ok I’m sorry your medicine is making you so sick. Bridget wrote:

    dee wrote:

    I have been bit under the weather due to starting methotrexate. I am being removed from the oral dosage because it has been causing daily vomiting and nausea. I will be put on an injectable form of it which does not cause severe nausea.

    Also, tomorrow, we are going to have to put our dear Petunia to sleep. She taught me so much about how to help her recuperate from her serious abuse. She has lived a happy and safe life with us but the early abuse put much stress on her little body. I am totally sad. Thankfully, I have Lilly and Tulip to console me.

    We don’t deserve these dogs. They are so loving and bring much joy to our lives.

    So so sorry about Petunia I know what that feels like. It is just, well, sad. I’m glad you have other pups to come home to.

    Dang medicine. Why can’t it just cooperate?

    Praying for strength, health, and comfort tomorrow and over the coming weeks.

  180. Dee, I am so sorry about Petunia. We had to put our dog down a few months ago and it was so very, very hard. It was the right thing to do because he was suffering, but damn it was hard putting him in the car to make the trip to the vet. You are in my prayers.

  181. Richard Dawkins is a rather interesting person, I am strange when I read The God Delusion it made me believe in God even more. God is not Great by Mr. Hitchens also made me lean more on God. Now when I read Piper, Macarthur, CJ, pretty much all of the TGC, T4G or anything by Doug Wilson makes me look at Atheism as a viable option. I don’t get that about me but I have always been a bit contrary. Dawkins is a wonderful author concerning evolution, the Selfish Gene and the Greatest Show on Earth were both well written. I find his lectures concerning faith in God and God rather humorous even juvenile he is not as accomplished a debater, as say a Harris who is also rather interesting.

    I have this hope that eventually there will be this universal reconciliation and the folks I worked/work with will eventually be in some “cosmic” way recompensed for their struggle/suffering. The “we all have it coming because of Adam” claptrap just does not cut it in the real world in my opinion. I am not saying we should not seek justice/balance here but somethings just don’t balance this side of eternity, if that makes any sense. I think that is why I am a functional universalist because God is not capricious. It just hurts sometimes and I can’t make that pain go away for some folks no matter how much I try, all the science, tech, prayer whatever it just does not make it go away.

    The you deserve it because of our sin, Adams sin, God’s glory etc just does not really help in any tangible way as I can see. Every once in a while I have these “rapture” dreams where I see me, flying up in the sky with folks from my past that can actually talk now and smile and express themselves moving and singing etc. In my old faith community, they were passed off as pathetic emotionalistic nonsense or demonic attack due to some hidden sin I must be harboring. But they still affect me in a wonderful way at times. Dont know why I wrote this but I hope it helps.

  182. Jack wrote:

    Alex wrote:
    God will deal with you, i know.
    No worries, I’m good. Got my Richard Dawkins Super Logic Action figure to keep me safe.
    And if all else fails, I can score, rum, a chicken & feathered rattle on short notice.
    Ack! My head dress is at the cleaners!

    LOL!

    Jack, thanks for making me laugh!

  183. dee wrote:

    I think I have come up with a solution to this situation which should somewhat satisfy most folks. First, we cannot scrub the posts at the moment because of our blog overhaul. It will happen in about two weeks.

    At that time, I am going to write a new post, covering the original situation, my thoughts on what happened this past week, and the reader response to all of this.

    Last night, when my power cord died, I had just enough time to know that I was deeply disturbed by Alex’s interaction on this blog. This is not what I hoped for. Reconciliation means just that-not striking out at people who supported Alex and brother in their time of need.And striking out at Shauna? Someone who has been through terrible abuse at the hands of her church. No! No way!

    When you first wrote this article I was totally fine with whatever you decided about taking down the posts concerning Alex. It was your decision and, actually, it still is your decision. I will support any choice you make about that. I was glad that reconciliation had taken place.

    What I find disturbing is the way Alex (and his father) have now come on this blog — that supported and believed Alex when he told his story — and lectured us on how off, wrong, etc., etc, we are because HE recanted his story and now believes we should all just shut up and move on.

    The video and letters were specifically directed to Calvary Chapel and parties that are part of Calvary Chapel. But, Alex has not apologized to anyone on blogs, where HE came, told his story, and was supported.

    Alex was dishonest to all of us who read his story, and we are in the wrong somehow? I feel like I’m in the twilight zone . . .

  184. Dee, I have been following this blog for years. Sometimes I wonder where you and Deb get the strength to persevere. No matter how much experience a person has, there are always situations that come up and kick you in the butt. You both show such grace and love toward others. But remember, it is impossible to predict the motives of others. It wasn’t until Alex disrespected Shauna’s pain that I saw him as projecting his own guilt onto another person. This behavior may be just a small chink in the armor of a person who approaches life in a dysfunctional manner. I have nothing to say about Alex as a person, just an observation of defensive behavior.
    As individuals, none of us have the power to predict another’s actions or reactions. Dee and Deb, as long as you continue to present yourselves with transparency and a loving heart, don’t taken on the serious dysfunction projected onto you and your blog personally. Most of your readers are encouraged by what you write. Please don’t let the few manipulative readers make you doubt yourself! You both rock and have been both an example to me as well as a source of valuable information.
    I wish your sweet pug prince, Petunia a smooth transition to Pug Heaven!

  185. Bridget wrote:

    we are in the wrong somehow?

    Dee wrote of Alex’s angry reactions, “Please chalk this up to much pain in the Grenier family at this time.” Perhaps the folks at the church tried to show compassion by displaying only joy and relief at the reconciliation, while keeping any doubts or anger to themselves. By contrast, maybe we look like cantankerous heathen oddballs.

    The above is only a guess–but the family is surprisingly surprised that some TWW readers are not joyously slaying the fatted calf.

    Admission of betrayal will inspire a broad range of good and bad reactions. This should be expected.

  186. Friend wrote:

    The above is only a guess–but the family is surprisingly surprised that some TWW readers are not joyously slaying the fatted calf.

    I think it is important for them to understand the difficulty inherent in this whole mess.

  187. Ann wrote:

    that I saw him as projecting his own guilt onto another person. This behavior may be just a small chink in the armor of a person who approaches life in a dysfunctional manner. I

    I noticed the same thing, Ann.

    And I also thought, “Time for a [psychiatric] evaluation to assess what’s really going on.” What is it with this family? Alcohol? Other problems. It’s just NOT adding up.

  188. Bridget wrote:

    The video and letters were specifically directed to Calvary Chapel and parties that are part of Calvary Chapel. But, Alex has not apologized to anyone on blogs, where HE came, told his story, and was supported.
    Alex was dishonest to all of us who read his story, and we are in the wrong somehow? I feel like I’m in the twilight zone . .

    I totally agree with you.

  189. Jack wrote:

    No worries, I’m good. Got my Richard Dawkins Super Logic Action figure to keep me safe.

    This is the best laugh I have had in 48 hours!

  190. brian wrote:

    somethings just don’t balance this side of eternity, if that makes any sense

    ‘yes’,
    and ‘no’ 🙂
    it depends on how we perceive the imbalance and I think our perspective is key to being at peace with this mystery

    I found the film ‘The Tree of Life’ (Terrance Malik) to be helpful in how it handled some of the most wrenching of questions we all eventually must deal with
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrAz1YLh8nY

    “The nuns taught us there were two ways through life—the way of nature and the way of grace. You have to choose which one you’ll follow…
    Grace doesn’t try to please itself. Accepts being slighted, forgotten, disliked. Accepts insults and injuries
    Nature only wants to please itself….. To have its own way. It finds reasons to be unhappy when all the world is shining around it. And love is smiling through all things… The nuns taught us that no one who loves the way of grace ever comes to a bad end.” (Terrence Malik)

    When I come to the end of understanding, there are two prayers I am able to hold on to:
    “Holy Lord, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us”
    and
    “Jesus, I trust in You”

  191. My take on this:

    We have been treated to several years of accounts of Bob Greiner’s abusive behavior towards his family, especially Alex. And now everything’s resolved out of the blue; One Big Happy Family and all that. I’m going for “wait & see” if this lasts and establishes a track record as being genuine. It’s too much of an abrupt shift from the past several years of what we’ve heard about the case.

  192. @ Muff Potter:
    Muff, thanks so much, but, as i outlined in a reply to Bridget last night, this is just a stopover for now. The past 100+ days being what they’ve been, and with so current sign of stopping, i can’t really deal with reading about even more abuse here. A longtime commenter tipped me off to this post, though, and i kind of needed to see it for myself.

    Hoping for better days ahead, for everyone.

  193. @ Friend:
    You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time… or so I’ve heard.

  194. @ Muff Potter:

    Haha! Thanks.

    You’re doing well holding your tongue on this one considering the CC connection.

    The interaction here from CC peeps feels like spiritual abuse dripping from the church has puddled at the blog door.

  195. I went ahead and decided to just transcribe the greener interview I was curious at how they worded everything this is the first time that I have listen to it. I didn’t listen before because everybody had pretty much commented on it and my Internet is really really slow.

    I did transcribe this verbatim and somethings really popped out a few things that Alex said popped out to me. I won’t comment although I really want to but I’ll just let everybody here read it for themselves and come to their own conclusions.

    Alex- something terrible happened 13 years ago there was a rift within our family. My wife found an online forum where some former Calvery Chapel Vacilla members express negative experiences they felt they had with my dad in this church I read it and I believed everything. I wanted to believe it because I was at odds with my parents. I let a blog G hot against Calvery Chapel. What I regret most though are two issues that I reported that turned out not to be true. The first was that my dad stole money from the church. The witness that had reported that to me later recanted and said it was false. The most serious accusation made was when my brother Paul came forward and had me post on my blog that my dad our dad sexually abused him and I shouted this accusation from the rooftops. My brother Paul fully recanted that statement my dad did not sexually abused him I believe that recantation dad mom Calvery Chapel of a Scylla I am deeply sorry for spreading that false accusation. And I am so glad that it’s not true and that it’s been recanted. At this point father and son hug audience applauds. You know we had that terrible split 13 years ago and when I approach that private family issue I was coming from a position of pride and anger. I felt things had to be resolved in my way that I was right and my dad was wrong. And then the battle lines were drawn and sides were chosen and we had this terrible separation within our family. And the whole got dug deeper and deeper and deeper.

    Mrs Greiner – there’s nothing harder than you know losing a relationship with your children. And I mean it was so painful that I didn’t go anywhere for about 45 years. Because I just cried all the time. It was such a lost and I am almost unbearable at times. I knew that if till I had my last breath that I would pray I knew It that it was possible things were possible with God.

    Me Greiner – I would walk through the house every day and I would see that the butt of that gun up there and every time I would see it 2030 times a day I would think all I need to do is reach up there and grab that gun.

    Mrs. Greiner – so I hid it!

    Me. Greiner – she hit it yeah but after a while we begin to see the ways of the Lord. As we had never seen that before and so that begin to offer us hope. Somehow somewhere guy just set us free.

    Alex – The years went on in the situation spiraled out of control. I started making terrible choices because of my pride and anger. I had separated from my wife I lost focus on my business and the weight of that the weight of the consequences of the terrible predicament I was in because we were engaged in a $14 million defamation lawsuit. The video shows right here a copy of the lawsuit.
    When all of a sudden someone goes from sending an email or making a comment on a blog to being deposed in a serious legal setting it tends to sift the truth from fiction then all of a sudden when they are on the spot and their story starts to change you start to realize wow wow that’s not how it was told to me! And it was during that realization I really began to break because they eat these are my parents you know and deep down it was the hurt the separation of the relationship that drove me. At this point of the video Alec shed some tears. The separation of the relationship that drove me but deep down I didn’t want the stuff to be true and then I found out it wasn’t but then I was how do you clean up this mess it was such a big mess it was such a big mess.
    Mr. Greiner- I had always thought if I received a call from one of my children I would know almost by the end of the first syllable where we were heading. And I heard my son Alex say something like dad this is Alex this is your son Alex. Dad I’m sorry and would you please forgive me. What I said was honey I love you. And of course I forgive you you’re my son.

    Alex – I so wanted to hear those words for so long I just didn’t know how to get there. You know you were so kind and you were just like son I love you come home. And it was just all the angst and anger just finished and hearing mom’s voice and it was so all that negativity all that darkness you know just like that just lifted.

    Mr Greiner- I have a brand-new almost a baby had growing understanding of how sacred the family is and so this is the beginning of our life again at the beginning of our life it was quite a moment.

    Mrs. Greiner- I like this side of the joy I did have joy in the trial it’s different. But this is that time of rejoicing and I just have a tremendous joy that my family has reconciled.

    Mr Greiner- weeping may endure for a night or 13 years with joy comes in the morning that’s a promise from God so we are learning. I mean we’re not spring chickens although I do feel I have a lot of spring left on my chicken. But we feel why hurt people let’s love one another? The world has got enough pain we need to hold one another hold one another up and be patient and long-suffering. I mean that’s a high calling but that’s what we’re called to. I had help my son Alex and myself would be able to stand before a congregation reconciled and it is happened and if God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ask or think. They play the song when God ran by Benny Hester

    OK that’s not the most perfect transcription but I used my voice text so that I wouldn’t have to type all this in my tiny phone if there any typos please forgive me but I did listen to this Word for Word I don’t want to misquote anybody. But I also felt it necessary to type out everything they said because some things stood out to me in the video when I initially listen to it tonight I watched it. And I was bothered by some of the statements made by Alex in this video. I don’t know maybe I’m missing something and some of you here will read it and clear some things up for me I will leave it up to you for comments or corrections thanks so much

  196. dee wrote:

    This is the best laugh I have had in 48 hours

    Mission accomplished. Sorry for your loss. Take care.

  197. Shauna wrote:

    And I was bothered by some of the statements made by Alex in this video. I don’t know maybe I’m missing something and some of you here will read it and clear some things up for me I will leave it up to you for comments or corrections thanks so much

    I am bothered mote by what was not said. He said Paul recanted his story of sexual abusers. He said someone else recanted the claim that BG stole money from the church.
    Yet, Alex recanted nothing….. his accusations that beatings and physical abuse went on for years is not mentioned.
    Pride and anger? The comments he made on TWW recently lead me to believe that he still has problems with pride and anger.
    Thanks for doing the transcription, Shauna!

  198. I am more troubled by Alex’s comment to Shauna on this blog than anything.

    The nature of that comment was very revealing, and I don’t like what I saw. Shauna did nothing to provoke that in my opinion.

    I hate bullying and attempts at intimidation.

  199. I am probably not the only one, but after reading through Alex‘s comments on this blog and his dysfunctional (to be kind, but really it was borderline abusive) interaction with other commenters/victims I am now beginning to wonder if we didn’t get it backwards/wrong the entire time, in terms of he and his parents fallout – this is not a pleasant thought and not one I would have entertained until he opened his mouth.

  200. Shauna wrote:

    My wife found an online forum where some former Calvery Chapel Vacilla members express negative experiences they felt they had with my dad in this church I read it and I believed everything. I wanted to believe it because I was at odds with my parents.

    So Alex just threw his wife under the bus.

    I am deeply unimpressed by this guy.

  201. Shauna wrote:

    Alex: …we were engaged in a $14 million defamation lawsuit.

    So if pastors/elders are supposed to have a good reputation before all, and not sue…how
    exactly does that work that the Calvary Chapel pastors/father sued? Doesn’t that Biblically disqualify him from serving? Shouldn’t he step down?

  202. Reminder: Please pray for Dee today, or hold good thoughts for her, as she has to put down one of her Pugs at the vet’s office.

    Also, Dee has been sick from her medication and in pain.

    Thanks, friends.

  203. Thank you Dee you know I love you bunches. Praying for you. Billy asked about you the other day. dee wrote:

    @ Shauna:
    Awesome work, Shauna.

  204. My issues with this video

    Alex says “his wife found the blogs” but it was you Alex who came to Dee and Deb to report your abuse!!! Sorry putting this on your wife doesn’t alleviate you of any personal responsibility. Where is your personal responsibility in this sentence?

    You also say “some former Calvary members expressed that they had some negative experiences they FELT they had with my dad in this church and “I believed them”! Ok Alex what do their grievances have to do with you and your brother claiming sexual abuse? What do their grievances with your claims of severe emotional/physical abuse? You had separate issues that didn’t include money or how your father offended others. Your claims against your father were criminal in nature and in the eyes of the law. You your brother made these claims not your wife or former members of this church. How dare you minimize their grievances by saying you believed them and rolled with it.
    I see what these statements mean and I know exactly what your getting at in these statements of yours. These words carry power given the use of reconciliation and the way this video is put. You place doubt now on former members who truly have been offended by things your father either did or said to him. You see you are coming forward with claims serious false claims and now this opens the door for abusers to use this and say ” see we can show even Christians full of pride bitterness and anger will falsely accuse their pastors/leaders”. Not only did you do that but I don’t see any personal responsibility on your part in these statements rather you place doubt in others claims that have nothing to do with your lies and you put them at the forefront. Unbelievable I’m sorry Dee but after transcribing this I find this video beyond offensive because millions will see it and believe it. While true victims are continuing to be thrown under the bus and not believed. Forget what he said to me I’m expressing an opinion based on what they put in the public eye so he can go for in coming after me if he feels it necessary. My name is here for all to see and I’m not hiding. His speak is the same ole crap my former pastor tried on me so I recognized a lot of his lingo and his parents in this video. The transcription reveals a lot. I also find it interesting how he uses the words ( I believed them, my wife found the blogs, they felt, ) all minimizations of others grievances. He may not name names but we can go to the blogs where others have made claims of abuse by his father. So much for him doing for others that he expects us to do for them

    Alex says a member recanted any financial abuse on your fathers part ! Sorry but there could be more than one person claiming this and how do we know if this person is real since you are being vague in this area? By the way you just threw your wife under the bus and you are an admitted liar. I don’t mean that to be ugly but I’m only stating facts.
    Your brother claimed sexual abuse and you again say you made the mistake of believing it and posting it. Why isn’t your brother

  205. I think it’s important to let things settle. The truth will come out. I believe there was spiritual abuse that some church members experienced. There was physical abuse in the home. Bob was a rough disciplinarian and it crossed the line in today’s standards. Let’s see how things turn out between Alex and his family. Alex is moving toward restoring the relationship. Let’s see how Bob takes steps towards healing relationships.

    Just as we would urge caution with other abusive situations, the same needs to be done here. We are only privy to what Bob and Alex share publicly. As Alex said, if those of you who have further questions, contact him.

  206. Julie Anne wrote:

    I think it’s important to let things settle. The truth will come out. I believe there was spiritual abuse that some church members experienced. There was physical abuse in the home. Bob was a rough disciplinarian and it crossed the line in today’s standards. Let’s see how things turn out between Alex and his family. Alex is moving toward restoring the relationship. Let’s see how Bob takes steps towards healing relationships.
    Just as we would urge caution with other abusive situations, the same needs to be done here. We are only privy to what Bob and Alex share publicly. As Alex said, if those of you who have further questions, contact him.

    Did you read up the thread, Julie Anne, how abusive Alex was to people here?

    Let things settle? Whom are we kidding?

  207. @ Julie Anne:

    Bob and Alex both came here and were rude, bullying, and ungracious to people here.
    It’s — per usual — somebody else’s fault (now it’s everybody here’s fault).

    Very disappointed in you, Julie Anne, for catering to Alex’s temper tantrums and his self-centeredness. And we’re supposed to contact him for further abuse? Do we look stupid?

  208. Why isn’t your brother up there with you? This reconciliation just didn’t happen in the last few days. You also state your brother had you post on your blog that your father sexually abused him. You both conspired to do that.
    In regards to the members you just stated felt they had negative experiences with your family, dad and you “wanted to believe it” another minimization and reveal your true intent. Your in a sense saying they are not being truthful. Ok like I said I have so much to say on this I’m glad I wasn’t the only one seeing this load of crap.

  209. I’m sorry Julie Ann I disagree with you on this I don’t see how anyone can read the transcribed video and see all of his statements and think there is full reconciliation and disclosure. I’m more offended by all of his minimizations of former members of their church and the attack on me and son not to mention the veiled threat and yes that was one. No one forced him to respond that ugly. He made a huge mistake yes and no one here thinks that he shouldn’t reconcile with his family however there are consequences to those lies they are criminal in nature and have a ripple affect for others. We need to process and yes even we have doubts it may not mean we’re right in all of them but we sure aren’t gullible either. He should have welcomed feedback rebuke given that it was him and his family who came here. This community isn’t out to crucify him for a mistake we will still hope for the best for him and pray for him but that doesn’t mean we will accept everything as true at first. We are hoping to see that as time gos on the reconciliation is real is genuine and we will pray for that. However we don’t need to be lectured by him or his father on blogging, expressing how we see this situation, and certainly my sons abuse does not need to be put in question when it is a fact with the state of Texas. He minimized it and placed doubt because he didn’t like my response to this video/reconciliation.

  210. Yes, I read all of it. I didn’t mention the behavior because that was not the purpose of my comment. I, too, was disturbed by both Bob and Alex’s comments. I have no problem contacting Alex and telling him about my thoughts about his behavior. And I’m sure he would expect that from me.

    What I see here is emotional reactions from Bob, Alex, and some commenters (understandable). I see Alex defending his dad and trying to move on with a new restored relationship. I see people saying there is unfinished business and trying to make sense of what happened. This is a very confusing situation. I get that. I’m just saying that this restoration is new. Let’s see how it plays itself out. Let’s see if patterns of behavior change and stick. Does that make better sense?

  211. Julie Anne wrote:

    . I see Alex defending his dad and trying to move on with a new restored relationship. I see people saying there is unfinished business and trying to make sense of what happened. This is a very confusing situation.

    The unfinished business – which Alex is in everyone’s face about – is that if what he’s now telling is “the truth” than he is admitting to LYING.

    Is he the one who had the webpage and the fundraiser to raise legal fees for his defense?
    I’d pulled out my card any number of times to make a donation…and something stopped me.

    I’m so glad that it did. I refuse to help an ingrate like him.

  212. Shauna wrote:

    I’m more offended by all of his minimizations of former members of their church

    Yes, that is troublesome and I have certainly noted it. Another thing to add: while Alex and Bob seem to be implying this is done/over, let’s move on, many of us are left wondering what about the other people outside the family. That’s another reason why I was saying let the dust settle a bit. I think Bob/Alex restoring their relationship is a step in the right direction, but is only the first step that needs to take place. If we demand the other steps that we know need to take place, was it really heart-felt repentance? I just want to sit back and if it’s the Holy Spirit working in Bob’s life, we should be able to see evidence. And I should be hearing back from other victims.

  213. Julie Anne wrote:

    The unfinished business – which Alex is in everyone’s face about – is that if what he’s now telling is “the truth” than he is admitting to LYING.
    Is he the one who had the webpage and the fundraiser to raise legal fees for his defense?
    I’d pulled out my card any number of times to make a donation…and something stopped me.

    Yes, and I gave money. I don’t want the money back. I believe Alex believed it to be true at the time. We know the physical abuse he incurred did happen. But some of the other stories changed. Does it mean that Alex lied or that he innocently passed along gross exaggerations or lies? I believe it was the latter.

    I’ve got to head to class, so I won’t be available for more comment for a few hours.

  214. One thing I know almost for certain is our former pastor is going to have a field day with this video and false claims made once he sees it. It will further support his claims of false accusations and I say that in quotations against him and my sons perpetrator. The way this video is worded and how it’s presented is no different than how these abusive churches twist words to suit their purposes now again I really hope that this is a is there is reconciliation but based on the wording and how this is presented I don’t believe it. Also based on Alex’s responses in attacks I don’t believe it. That is my opinion that is my thoughts on this whole thing no one has to agree with me and everyone can feel free to disagree with me and I’m OK with that I’m not offended if someone has an opposing point of you than I do. I think debate is good I think different opinions are good I think we should feel free to express them as long as were not being hateful or purposely hurtful. Sometimes as others opinions are going to be offensive but that doesn’t mean the right and it doesn’t mean that what they believe is true it just means that they have a position on a situation that occurred because two people made some serious claims. I believe opinions are wrong with the intent is to purposely be hurtful or to disparage somewhere and I don’t believe anyone here . Also I don’t see anywhere in the commentary on this situation were anyone has not expressed any desire to not see the reconciliation process play out. When I see her people who have been spiritually abused or victimized or people have just kept up with this and care about abuse have serious reservations about this situation what is transpired. I believe D and Deb have good intentions their hearts are in the right place I believe they were excited to see the family reconciled and they just want to do the right thing. I don’t think they anticipated seeing ugliness coming from the very people who caused the offenses to begin with. Again this is a place for us to express our views in our opinions based on the situations presented in this blog or the topics presented sorry. OK I’m driving and I’m using this auto text or voice text so please forgive all the typos

  215. Oh and another thing I wanted to add. There are a lot of readers here who have not been abused spiritually or victims of sexual abuse. However there are a lot of readers here who have a lot to offer in regards to having wisdom discernment and being able to recognize abuses like this. They bring a lot to blogs like this because they offer an impartial perspective there are even those who feel that this reconciliation is true and they to have much to offer and point of use that had they not express them I may not of seen it in that way or in the way that they have shared. So I think everybody’s perspective is important whether we agree with them or not and we may not like everything that everybody says but again debate is good conversations are good and went something like this happens we need to Chyna work it out and listen but we don’t necessarily always have to agree. And that’s what I love about these blogs is you can agree to disagree he and still find communion among believers. And I believe the believers here have expressed a heart for the abused and a heart for one another and that’s one of the things I appreciate most about this blog in particular. My feelings are so strong on this not because the initial post I was willing of course to give the benefit of the doubt and some areas but was other areas was questionable. Excuse me are questionable to me. It doesn’t mean I’m right it just means that I’m processing this and I’m waiting to see maybe some fruit that will come from it and and hopefully be able to rejoice when that comes to pass. In the meantime I have my reservations as everybody else does and I don’t think Alex isn’t a terrible person I just think that he’s expressed some things in his character that are not very pleasant. And I’m basing that on his responses in these blocks along with statements he has made in regards to this reconciliation which I strongly disagree with as you can see. And he’s right we don’t live in their life it’s a private family matter but remember he made it public that by coming here and wanting a retraction of everything that he claimed into his initial claims or false claims of abuse whether it be sexual or physical they still were false and I’m glad that he has come forward if that’s true but don’t minimize others who have come forward And have witnessed and made claims legally in there and please reports in regards to this abuse. Basically Alex needs to take responsibility for his own words his own actions his own blogging and not what he believed about what other said and base his opinions on that and not what other people reported let them come forward if they’ve made false claims until then I don’t think he has a right to throw them in the under the bus or even mention their grievances .

  216. Julianne you’re right you know letting the dust settle them reconciling is good. I agree with that to a point. I think one of the issues a lot have here and I think I want I’m gonna speak for myself. One of the issues I have is why all the media attention I don’t understand why this couldn’t be settled just within the church and maybe him going to the blogs and saying I messed up . To make a video like this and media outlets I think up to 400 radio stations I read somewhere want to pick this up Dr. Dobson wants to do an interview it just comes across not genuine. It comes across as a media stunt. I’m just giving my opinion on how it looks and maybe others or feel The way I do maybe they don’t. But on top of that Alex comes on here attacking when really he’s in a position where I believe it should be very humbling because you are not only acknowledging lying to your parents about your parents but two blogs where abuse is reported to have occurred when churches and other communities reject them. This is supposed to be a safe place for victims and their families those who have experienced sexual and spiritual abuse from their churches not a place to be attacked or to be made as if they are making it up. The claims he made have serious ripple effects and that includes victims of sexual abuse who are not gonna be high-fiving him for making that up or his brother. Given the nature of the topic people are going to have tough feelings about a tough topic in a situation that has occurred that appears to be somewhat fake. Or at the very least a media stand in order to get in the good graces with the church. I mean others have commented on the video and how it’s directed really towards the church maybe to pull at The pocketbooks of its members. I mean at this point who knows it could be a whole variety things or could be what it is a reconciliation but right now it just doesn’t all set well with everyone myself included. Again I’m not speaking for everyone I’m just Kaina expressing the sentiments of a lot of the postings that I’ve read here I am speaking for myself personally and initially I was giving him the benefit of the doubt but still had my reservations about this whole thing. Never meant that I don’t wish for union between a father and son and a father and a mother and son to be peaceful and good . But I can’t say his statements in that video and his current statements to me and others here have minimized victims who have been abused you truly have been abused and have not made anything up and that sets the tone for other churches and other members looking at what they are saying and just place is more doubt so it’s not what he said at first that’s a promise in the aftermath and actually yeah I did that first because I’m going based on the video and it comes across much different on paper because you’re seeing all the words and how it’s put together and you can see the manipulation in those words. Or at the very least I see some patterns in this wording that are similar to what I’ve experienced in my former church with the former leaders there. Maybe I’m the only one that sees it I don’t know but it’s enough to where it’s a little disturbing. And that’s all I’m gonna say on this I think I’ve said more than my piece if I’ve said anything that anybody disagrees with feel free to point out maybe something that I don’t see I’m open to your advice or opinions your comments your thoughts.

  217. Julie Anne wrote:

    We know the physical abuse he incurred did happen.

    Could you clarify that for me, JA. I got the feeling he has renounced the whole shooting match.

  218. Julie Anne wrote:

    . I see Alex defending his dad and trying to move on with a new restored relationship. I

    I am not seeing that. I am seeing a very scripted and very public reconciliation extravaganza complete with radio, TV and the CC production event with guest speakers. It seems repairing the reputations of CC and Bob is really the main event.

    Bob seems to be very proud of the media aspects of this and pointed to it as proof as if Focus on the Family interviews them, it must all be above board. He might not know some Christians don’t respect FoF.

    And worse, their message is anyone who questions needs to talk to them one on one only. These things make me very uncomfortable. It’s the world of control. The biggest problem they have are a few blogs are not cooperating in full. Why not just ignore that?

    So there has been a very bad attempt by both to tell people this reconciliation, that is promoted as a public media event, is not to be discussed because ‘it is personal’?

    This comes off very typical in certain church circles. Everyone must now be on the same page with them or they are hateful and unforgiving.

    The dysfunction is all too clear.

  219. Shauna wrote:

    One thing I know almost for certain is our former pastor is going to have a field day with this video and false claims made once he sees it. It will further support his claims of false accusations and I say that in quotations against him and my sons perpetrato

    This my concern for lots of people. If this goes on the Christian media circuit, as Bob mentioned, it could have some devastating effects. Churches will want to emulate it by pulling out the public reconciliation card while the victim might know it is media stunt and won’t want to cooperate so will be labeled as unforgiving and guilty. Especially these days with so many spiritually abused out there writing about their experience. This is a perfect way to save the image of a church. It sets up some impossible scenerios for some victims.

    It would have been much more helpful to have kept this more private and give it several years.

  220. Shauna wrote:

    Or at the very least I see some patterns in this wording that are similar to what I’ve experienced in my former church with the former leaders there. Maybe I’m the only one that sees it I don’t know but it’s enough to where it’s a little disturbing

    You are not the only one who saw it. If that helps at all. People are walking on eggshells on this one. Why, I don’t know.

  221. dee wrote:

    Could you clarify that for me, JA. I got the feeling he has renounced the whole shooting match.

    Yes! This is from the Fresno Bee. Thanks to a reader who reminded me of this article. It is also what Alex told me privately (and you can be sure that I asked).

    Alex Grenier has not disavowed his accusations of physical abuse but said “the details are no longer important to me.”

    “My dad has apologized to me for a strict, old-school upbringing,” Alex Grenier said. “I forgive him and I love him. … Bob was very gracious. I asked for forgiveness and he forgave me.”

    Read more here: http://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article132747024.html#storylink=cpy

    I said earlier: “I see Alex defending his dad and trying to move on with a new restored relationship.

    Anon1 responded:

    I am not seeing that. I am seeing a very scripted and very public reconciliation extravaganza complete with radio, TV and the CC production event with guest speakers. It seems repairing the reputations of CC and Bob is really the main event.

    You are correct in part of this, but please note that Bob seems to be initiating these events. I do not see Alex initiating them. Alex is doing it to help his father’s reputation among CC. Again, I stand by my original statement that Alex’s main objective is to continue the restoration process with his father/mother. And as stated in the quote above, he is choosing to put aside the way he was harshly disciplined, perhaps as a peace offering for the harm he feels he caused by unknowingly spreading misinformation on his blog, etc.

  222. I also want to make a point that I am not and do not dismiss any survivor’s feelings, especially Shauna because of her interactions here, in this process.

    This is a very messy and complicated situation. If you are feeling used, angry, disappointed, attacked, shut down, etc, you are absolutely justified in those responses and I completely get it. While Bob and Alex were trying to set the record straight, there was harm done here. Things could have been done in a better way. That’s also why I say to wait to respond . . because it is still so messy, we won’t know what the new CC Visalia, Bob Grenier, Gayle Grenier, Alex Grenier, and Paul Grenier will look like. But it is important to make note of what we’ve seen and then reevaluate later to see what has changed.

    Again, if there is true restoration and repentance, we will see the fruit of that. This is a process.

  223. Friend wrote:

    Perhaps the folks at the church tried to show compassion by displaying only joy and relief at the reconciliation, while keeping any doubts or anger to themselves. By contrast, maybe we look like cantankerous heathen oddballs.

    The above is only a guess–but the family is surprisingly surprised that some TWW readers are not joyously slaying the fatted calf.

    This whole thing just keeps sounding hinkier and hinkier.

    I’m for pulling back and seeing what develops over the long haul. There’s just something about this that says more will eventually come out.

  224. Julie Anne wrote:

    You are correct in part of this, but please note that Bob seems to be initiating these events. I do not see Alex initiating them. Alex is doing it to help his father’s reputation among CC.

    That sounds like a bad sign.

    Especially when primed with all the accounts of church corruption and abuse and cover-up both here and at SSB. Again, probably a wait-and-see attitude is best.

  225. Bridget wrote:

    You’re doing well holding your tongue on this one considering the CC connection.

    On this thread and at this juncture it would serve no constructive purpose.
    There are many kind and decent folks still in the Calvary Chapel brand.
    I wish them well and Godspeed on their journeys.

  226. Julie Anne wrote:

    Alex is moving toward restoring the relationship. Let’s see how Bob takes steps towards healing relationships.

    one always hopes that individual healing takes place prior to a family reconciliation, so that relationships are no longer ‘toxic’

  227. Julie Anne wrote:

    “My dad has apologized to me for a strict, old-school upbringing,

    It seems to me that he is changing the narrative from abuse to just a generational difference. I still find. this odd.

    My father used to spank us with his belt-something I saw all the kids whose parents were immigrants from Eastern Europe doing at the time. I did not do the same with my kids and find that form of punishment wrong. However, I never once accused my father of abuse, since I understood it. Yet Alex did.

    I think this whole story is a mess.

  228. dee wrote:

    Julie Anne wrote:
    “My dad has apologized to me for a strict, old-school upbringing,
    It seems to me that he is changing the narrative from abuse to just a generational difference. I still find. this odd.
    My father used to spank us with his belt-something I saw all the kids whose parents were immigrants from Eastern Europe doing at the time. I did not do the same with my kids and find that form of punishment wrong. However, I never once accused my father of abuse, since I understood it. Yet Alex did.

    This is what I was referring to, Dee: Alex Grenier has not disavowed his accusations of physical abuse. Those are the reporter’s words which were written after listening to Alex’s story. Those are the same conclusions I have come to after talking personally with Alex.

    Messy, indeed. There is no black/white in this story. It just doesn’t work like that.

  229. dee wrote:

    My father used to spank us with his belt-something I saw all the kids whose parents were immigrants from Eastern Europe doing at the time. I did not do the same with my kids and find that form of punishment wrong. However, I never once accused my father of abuse, since I understood it. Yet Alex did.

    My parents and grandparents used “old school” discipline on me, my brother, and my cousins – switches and belts, 8 or 10 licks, never hard enough to draw blood or bruise. What AG has described goes far beyond “old school” discipline.

  230. The fact that Bob is initiating it to include all this media hoopla says it all for me. Does anyone else here see that or am I wrong? I’m not angry at Alex or Bob for wanting to restore the family. I’m frustrated with the remarks by Alex they were very telling. I’m sorry but as angry as he got so quickly because TWW readers had a different take on this was uncalled for. He went from zero to sixty really quick with shooting arrows at the very people who believed him, who supported him, and who offered financial support by the readers here. His statements about bloggers and these blogs were a slap in the face to those who supported him. We are beyond just the reconciliation. I think we all agree it should take place. ood for them it’s their family and all we can do is wish him and his parents the best.
    I’m holding him accountable for the statements in this video and the ones made here. Probably a good thing Dee has cut him off from commenting so as to not make it worse for himself. I don’t understand how he could have expected anything less here when he came forward with the truth. It’s not that he lied we know this. Its the way this entire scenerio is packaged up. It’s the comments made in the video throwing his wife under the bus by saying she found the blogs. Who cares if it was her that found these blogs. He is the one that acted upon them by asking for support and blasting his father. Then theres the issue of totally throwing others under the bus by him saying ” I believed them” in past tense and in a way that gives the impression these people were lying about the abuse they experienced with bob Greiner. Then he go’s on to talk about how when people are depositioned what they say in email and on the blogs well they begin to change their story. Again this is not him taking responsibility its passing the buck! It’s saying ya I lied I did these things but but for the fact that my wife found the blogs or these former members put their grievances on a blog where I could read and believe them it wouldn’t be so bad. I don’t know but that is what i’m getting from his statements. It would have been better I guess had he just stuck to his offenses that he committed towards his father and anyone he told half truths or lied to rather than mention the very things I just stated above. I’m not treading carefully here because this has been made very public and as a reader, a member of this body, a mother of a victim and someone who has experienced spiritual abuse as most here have I can’t stay silent about this. I don’t think it’s unloving to point out some of the things that would offend unblievers. imagine how many visit this site who don’t know the Lord. If we remain silent on the topic or sugar coat then how are we any different than those who say nothing when abuse is occuring or any different that those who refuse to believe the vicitms because it would tarnish their pastors or churches image or its just to icky to think or talk about? What are we saying to them? I intend no harm with my position on this subject but I do have a position and I think my input has value whether alex or his father agree with it or not. Just as I don’t agree with this three ring circus media blow out. Again it’s my opinon and I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. Alex revealed his character and how he views vicitms and he can’t unring that bell. So its beyond the small circle he wanted to keep it or his father wanted to keep. We didn’t cause that nor did we force either of them to come here and lecture, instruct, downplay, or attack but they did and this is the response that comes with it. Of course this will die down and if their reconciling is true then it will work out in a way that honors the Lord. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Julie Anne wrote:

    You are correct in part of this, but please note that Bob seems to be initiating these events. I do not see Alex initiating them. Alex is doing it to help his father’s reputation among CC.

    That sounds like a bad sign.

    Especially when primed with all the accounts of church corruption and abuse and cover-up both here and at SSB. Again, probably a wait-and-see attitude is best.

  231. Julie Anne wrote:

    This is a very messy and complicated situation. If you are feeling used, angry, disappointed, attacked, shut down, etc, you are absolutely justified in those responses and I completely get it. While Bob and Alex were trying to set the record straight, there was harm done here. Things could have been done in a better way. That’s also why I say to wait to respond . . because it is still so messy,

    I completely disagree with you Julie Anne. And we normally see eye-to-eye on most issues.

    There is a VERY good reason that when people make amends in 12th Step programs (doing a 9th Step) they are counseled in advance by a sponsor, many times in fact, as to how to handle doing so — to not inflict further damage.

    I can tell that Alex had NO ONE advising him how to do this, he lacks sufficient maturity from a growth process, and NO ONE in his family should have contacted The Wartburg Watch or any other blog. Look at the damage he’s now done????

    Alex has no humility.

    And Bob, his father, has NO humility. Arrogantly coming here and spouting off Scriptures.
    Now the new spin is that Bob was a product of his time and that he beat his children.
    How does Bob explain all of the other parents who were products of their times who treated their children with love and respect and NEVER LAID A HAND ON THEM?

    This whole family is as dysfunctional as they ever were and NONE of them have learned a thing! And it shows!

  232. Julie Anne wrote:

    Again, I stand by my original statement that Alex’s main objective is to continue the restoration process with his father/mother. And as stated in the quote above, he is choosing to put aside the way he was harshly disciplined, perhaps as a peace offering for the harm he feels he caused by unknowingly spreading misinformation on his blog, etc.

    I honestly do not have any problem with this at all. It has never been my focus, for the record. My focus is how they are dealing with the reconciliation process very “publicly” with media events and interaction on this blog and how that might affect others. I am confused why speaking of the public reconciliation process is wrong.

    And I am not sure why it would be wrong to think that refunding donations from supporters would not be a part of this very public reconciling? It is not being demanded that I can see but everyone is entitled to their opinion on the matter.

    I think this entire issue boils down to trust on all sides. Had it been kept private without the media hoopla circuit and chastising former supporters, this would look very different. Alex is basically making his former supporters his new enemy because they are not immediately jumping on board. I understand you saying his dad planned it all, not Alex. I just don’t understand why that matters at this point. The reconciliation is basically a media event. They promote that part. Just don’t ask questions. So why do they want publicity. To repair reputations? They are only making it worse.

    That is what concerns me. And it concerns me for current and future victims. Unlike Alex, I don’t think Spiritual Abuse is because people just don’t like the pastor. Will he say such things on the media circuit?

    It seems he has been reverse brainwashed in some of the things he wrote here. He reminds me of the DV cases where the person goes back and starts defending the abuser while being angry at all the people who once helped them.

    I will let it go. I just believe we must think of other victims and how this affects them. I get the impression some, like you, want others to empathize with Alex and not discuss it. He is not presenting himself as an sympathic figure. He was cruel and demeaning to Shauna.

  233. Anon1 wrote:

    I get the impression some, like you, want others to empathize with Alex and not discuss it. He is not presenting himself as an sympathic figure. He was cruel and demeaning to Shauna.

    And Alex was insulting to the rest of us in his nasty comments.

    He has NOT done his “work” (i.e. growth) and he was NOT counseled by an outside, objective party about how to make proper amends. Because this AIN’T how it’s EVER supposed to be done.

    Alex’s “best thinking” got him into this mess and his “best thinking” is at work getting him out of this mess…explaining how come he’s still creating messes. Time for Alex to get outside professional help from an objective party who knows what they’re doing.

  234. @ Anon1:

    “It seems he has been reverse brainwashed in some of the things he wrote here.”
    ++++++++++++++++

    he sums up his previous actions/behavior with “pride and anger”.

    to me, that is reminiscent of my time in christian culture when any negative emotions were not allowed. someone does something horrible to you, pressure was on to forgiveforgiveforgive – you weren’t allowed to feel pain, or be angry about the pain.

    the pressure was so strong. totally made things so unnecessarily complex —

    (1) not only does one feel pain and justified anger because of being wronged/abused,
    (2) but pressure is applied from without and within to forgive, be joyful, smiley, no room for any anger whatsoever,
    (3) compounded by the added bonus of guilt when you struggle with these things. you feel like a failure, a total disappointment to God and to one’s peers and to oneself.

  235. Velour I agree with you. My mother was abusive with words and with punishments at times. I don’t hold this against her. I am thankful for the good she did do with me. Unfortunately my brothers and sister have a different take. My father was an alcoholic who abused my mother and on three occasions I remember watching him almost choke her until her very last breath. He was so kind sober but incredibly violent towards our mother. I thank the Lord my father never touched his children. With that said I’m the product of ongoing abuse and neglect. My father by the way asked my mother and his children to forgive him. She has and although divorced he treats her with dignity and respect neither are believers as far as I know.
    I could have carried on the abuse. I chose different for my son and required more of myself I just loved this boy to death. Maybe it’s because God gave me such a sensetive nature and soft heart. Maybe I chose to do better be better in how I would raise my child. I had no teaching really on how to be a normal mother but I think God gave me grace and much guidance with billy. Bob came into the marriage with a child in place. My opinion is step parents shouldn’t be putting their hands on step children period and since he did bob was a grown man choosing to abuse his non biological kid. Had Alex had a present involved biological father to protect him I doubt bob would have gotten away with hitting him much less even trying. We all have choices and bob chose his road. The long term cause were broken relationships with his kids and it came back to bite him in the butt with both sons exposing what he did. Remember, your son will find you out.
    After billy had been raped I looked for anything scriptural on child sex abuse because I got nothing from our pastor except discipline. A friend who had been a former member gave me a book “Rid of my disgrace by Lindsay and Justin Holcomb” I have to say this was a God send. I was able to get a hold of Justin who gave billy and me a few hours of his time. He ministered to billy in a way our former pastor should have. He changed Billy’s perception of pastors.
    Ok all this to say is that in his book he talked about king david in how he failed to correct his sons and how his son with Bathsheba followed him as one son tried to kill him and killed the other brother for raping his own sister. Rather than validate Tamar she lived the rest of her life in the palace and David did nothing to punish or consequence his son. He had the position to be exercise justice and do something but did nothing. King David’s sins had a ripple affect and God loved him but he didn’t escape the aftermath of his choices. Hopefully I make sense here.Velour wrote:

    Julie Anne wrote:

    This is a very messy and complicated situation. If you are feeling used, angry, disappointed, attacked, shut down, etc, you are absolutely justified in those responses and I completely get it. While Bob and Alex were trying to set the record straight, there was harm done here. Things could have been done in a better way. That’s also why I say to wait to respond . . because it is still so messy,

    I completely disagree with you Julie Anne. And we normally see eye-to-eye on most issues.

    There is a VERY good reason that when people make amends in 12th Step programs (doing a 9th Step) they are counseled in advance by a sponsor, many times in fact, as to how to handle doing so — to not inflict further damage.

    I can tell that Alex had NO ONE advising him how to do this, he lacks sufficient maturity from a growth process, and NO ONE in his family should have contacted The Wartburg Watch or any other blog. Look at the damage he’s now done????

    Alex has no humility.

    And Bob, his father, has NO humility. Arrogantly coming here and spouting off Scriptures.
    Now the new spin is that Bob was a product of his time and that he beat his children.
    How does Bob explain all of the other parents who were products of their times who treated their children with love and respect and NEVER LAID A HAND ON THEM?

    This whole family is as dysfunctional as they ever were and NONE of them have learned a thing! And it shows!

  236. It appears the the crux of the family relationships are based on power and authority.(parents). And either arrested emotional development or possibly PTSD. (Alex).
    It is difficult to determine who is manipulating whom. I believe these relationships will be difficult to restore without totally revamping the power and communication structure of the family.
    If they seek restoration through counseling, I pray they avoid nouthetic counselors who are too simplistic in their approach and easily manipulated. Hopefully restoration doesn’t include emeshment.
    Dee and Deb, help where you can and step back when situations become impossible. There is NO SHAME in stepping back and disentangling from an unpredictable and unhealthy relationship. At a minimum, not everything needs to play out in public. You both serve and serve well. Don’t sweat it and don’t allow yourselves to become targets! That is a big risk when serving and engaging with broken people (basically all of us!).
    All who come here are very loved, but projecting blame and expecting others to to engage in exacerbating a difficult situation should not be tolerated here.
    There is a difference in being supportive of wounded people versus being manipulated by them. Sometimes it is hard to see the difference.
    Just know Dee and Deb are not ya’ll’s mamas, moral police or mind readers. Treat them with respect!!!

  237. Who is this directed at? I believe the readers and those who have been commenting are fully supportive of Dee and Deb myself included. I haven’t seen anyone attack them. I believe we are giving our take on this situation which is the purpose of them posting and leaving it open for us to comment. I don’t look to either of these women as mamas or moral police I am a mother and my morals are pretty much in place. They are my sisters. In regards to them being manipulated by wounded people, again who are you referencing? I’m not sure I understand who you are directing that to so I thought it would be right to ask before saying anything more. Ann wrote:

    It appears the the crux of the family relationships are based on power and authority.(parents). And either arrested emotional development or possibly PTSD. (Alex).
    It is difficult to determine who is manipulating whom. I believe these relationships will be difficult to restore without totally revamping the power and communication structure of the family.
    If they seek restoration through counseling, I pray they avoid nouthetic counselors who are too simplistic in their approach and easily manipulated. Hopefully restoration doesn’t include emeshment.
    Dee and Deb, help where you can and step back when situations become impossible. There is NO SHAME in stepping back and disentangling from an unpredictable and unhealthy relationship. At a minimum, not everything needs to play out in public. You both serve and serve well. Don’t sweat it and don’t allow yourselves to become targets! That is a big risk when serving and engaging with broken people (basically all of us!).
    All who come here are very loved, but projecting blame and expecting others to to engage in exacerbating a difficult situation should not be tolerated here.
    There is a difference in being supportive of wounded people versus being manipulated by them. Sometimes it is hard to see the difference.
    Just know Dee and Deb are not ya’ll’s mamas, moral police or mind readers. Treat them with respect!!!

  238. Shauna wrote:

    Who is this directed at? I believe the readers and those who have been commenting are fully supportive of Dee and Deb myself included. I haven’t seen anyone attack them.

    Bob and Alex have both attacked people here.

    Ann’s comment is accurate.

  239. Julie Anne wrote:

    Yes, and I gave money. I don’t want the money back. I believe Alex believed it to be true at the time. We know the physical abuse he incurred did happen. But some of the other stories changed. Does it mean that Alex lied or that he innocently passed along gross exaggerations or lies? I believe it was the latter.

    Back the truck up! Alex took money? I guess it wouldn’t be a proper religious outing without someone making a buck.

  240. Ohhh ok I thought so wasn’t sure thanks velour sorry for the confusion annVelour wrote:

    Shauna wrote:

    Who is this directed at? I believe the readers and those who have been commenting are fully supportive of Dee and Deb myself included. I haven’t seen anyone attack them.

    Bob and Alex have both attacked people here.

    Ann’s comment is accurate.

  241. I don’t know what to think about this. As of April 1 a screenshot of a Facebook post made by my sons perpetrators mother she has publicly accused me on her page of scamming the go fund me because my son story isn’t true. According to her and is perpetrator her son and the church. One of the commentators there went on to say you should report Shawna which she replied I did call in to the go fund me and report her . If she saying this on Facebook she saying It to the people in our community. And again I repeat ripple effect. This is the type of lies I have to fight off and continue to defend Billy for something her son did she actually called go fund me to report me for fraud or is being a scammer well that feels really great even though it’s not true it’s still has a impact. I really really really hate having to defend defend my abuse child and myself in this situation it really sucks. And before anyone says or may say just brush it off forget about it don’t worry about it it’s not true. I can’t not not worry about it I can’t just forget about it and I can’t just not say anything to defend Billy or myself against consistent accusations. The only saving saving grace in this situation other than God being so good to us is this community here this blog and the power of the Internet to put us on the same playing field as the pastor and the family who continues to her accusations and lies. I mean I have yet to get an apology from anybody in this family for what her son did my child. I mean my son was raped by her kid and she’s mad at me for saying so or for reporting it or turning her son in for a very heinous criminal act against a child. I do not get this and if somebody can explain it to me I would really appreciate it. Can’t be delusional I mean she can’t be completely delusional and detached from reality to think that was OK. I don’t care if he’s her son or not your kid hurt another child what the heck is your problem.? I’m directing that at the mother of my sons perpetrator. I know she reads these comments and these blogs or someone is reading them and informing her and anybody else who is interested. So let me just publicly say and I know this is off-topic have the decency to at least at the very least apologize to the mother of the child that your son rate and of story. For goodness sake he confessed he played guilty his lawyer informed you because you are his parents his lawyer formed him of his rights you both excepted it and took responsibility because you wanted to get him off to take responsibility outside the court like you’re supposed to. Stop blaming others for your failure and your sons actions. If for once do him a favor and hold him accountable for what he did but at least telling the truth outside the court which by the way is a violation of his plea deal and you are violating it for him thank youb>Jack wrote:

    Julie Anne wrote:

    Yes, and I gave money. I don’t want the money back. I believe Alex believed it to be true at the time. We know the physical abuse he incurred did happen. But some of the other stories changed. Does it mean that Alex lied or that he innocently passed along gross exaggerations or lies? I believe it was the latter.

    Back the truck up! Alex took money? I guess it wouldn’t be a proper religious outing without someone making a buck.

  242. Jack wrote:

    Julie Anne wrote:
    Yes, and I gave money. I don’t want the money back. I believe Alex believed it to be true at the time. We know the physical abuse he incurred did happen. But some of the other stories changed. Does it mean that Alex lied or that he innocently passed along gross exaggerations or lies? I believe it was the latter.
    Back the truck up! Alex took money? I guess it wouldn’t be a proper religious outing without someone making a buck.

    Yes, Jack, Alex took money. He repeatedly asked people for money and he had a fundraising website on his blog to pay his legal expenses.

    I took out my credit card several times…feeling sorry for him. But something stopped me each and every time from donating to the cause.

    I’m so glad that I never donated to him now that I see he’s carrying on the “Family Tradition” of being abusive!

  243. @ Shauna:

    Shauna,

    You really need to see a Texas attorney and have an attorney handle this. It may call for a court order telling her to stop.

  244. Shauna wrote:

    A friend who had been a former member gave me a book “Rid of my disgrace by Lindsay and Justin Holcomb” I have to say this was a God send. I was able to get a hold of Justin who gave billy and me a few hours of his time. He ministered to billy in a way our former pastor should have. He changed Billy’s perception of pastors.
    Ok all this to say is that in his book he talked about king david in how he failed to correct his sons and how his son with Bathsheba followed him as one son tried to kill him and killed the other brother for raping his own sister. Rather than validate Tamar she lived the rest of her life in the palace and David did nothing to punish or consequence his son. He had the position to be exercise justice and do something but did nothing. King David’s sins had a ripple affect and God loved him but he didn’t escape the aftermath of his choices.

    I am so glad that you and Billy found some kind of support.

    I’m glad your dad made amends to your mom and the rest of the family for the harm he caused.

  245. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    This whole thing just keeps sounding hinkier and hinkier.
    I’m for pulling back and seeing what develops over the long haul. There’s just something about this that says more will eventually come out.

    I have to agree with HUG here. Something feels very off.

  246. Yes ,Velour you are right. The problem is no attorney in this area will touch it because this is a good ole boy town. This is difficult to navigate but I truly believe that if a lawsuit is the way I’m supposed to go God will provide the attorney and He will know when the right time to do it. It’s funny you know I never have been comfortable fully with the idea to sue anyone especially when back in 2010 my dog fighting neighbors attempting to sue me for 10 thousand for reporting their activities. Long story short we had just moved in and put bulls were getting loose who had been fought and abused. They posed a risk to me and my son not to mention the animals they killed and abused it was the most aweful experience of my life and Billy’s as we watched the owner throw a dog in a shack to be torn up “bait dog” I called the authorities and every time they got away until I called so much they couldn’t continue. The neighbors were starting to speak up as it menaced them. They moved and filed a ten thousand dollar civil suit against me and then all of a sudden I was all alone. Neighbors who said they would come forward stepped away they didn’t want to get sued. I also experienced nine months of nails in my tires ruining all of them. So getting paperwork for a lawsuit was scary. I hated it but I was right in reporting and I documented everything. A lawyer represented me for free and ultimately they lost. I did not file a counter claim as I didn’t believe it was right despite what we went through. I just wanted peace. I got it and we have lived here peacefully since. All that to say is the Lord was with me and billy the entire time. I have learned it’s better to speak up and do something if it’s within your power. I could have ignored the abuse to most they are just animals. To me it went against everything I know that is right and they posed a clear and present danger to the community , me and my son. I am an animal lover and my heart couldn’t take what they were doing. I believe God placed me here partly for this reason. I won’t back down from defending what is right. I was praying during court before I was so shaken by being sued. God is good and He held me up then He surely will do it now. Billy’s perpetrator and his family need to start thinking seriously to the ramifications of violating that plea deal by saying it is all lies. God may provide an attorney soon and it will be a shock to them if He does. I think there’s more to this story which the church is hiding from us and it’s only a matter of time. I believe there’s something there which could link Billy’s perpetrator with the church but we will see if my suspicions come out to be true Velour wrote:

    @ Shauna:

    Shauna,

    You really need to see a Texas attorney and have an attorney handle this. It may call for a court order telling her to stop.

  247. Shauna, My comments were aimed at the Greniers. I fear they may try to suck Dee into their family drama.
    Justed wanted to throw support behind Dee and assure her that her decisions on how to proceed with this thread is up to her. If she is feeling manipulated by the family-there is no shame in ending this thread. She is not responsible for any dysfunction in the family and not her burden to fix.
    I adore Dee and Deb and would hate to see the Greniers situation cause them any sleepless nights. I support Dee no matter what she decides. But I wish I could protect her from people who may use this forum for self promotion,
    Shauna, I was not directing my comments to you or other commenters. I am sorry if you took offense.

  248. Ann wrote:

    Justed wanted to throw support behind Dee and assure her that her decisions on how to proceed with this thread is up to her. If she is feeling manipulated by the family-there is no shame in ending this thread. She is not responsible for any dysfunction in the family and not her burden to fix.

    I am with you, Ann, about supporting Dee and Deb in this.

    I am not, however, with you in playing into this dysfunctional, abusive family’s hands and shutting down the thread which is what they’ve wanted.

    Alex was put into moderation to prevent his comments. They can do the same with Bob, the father. Ditto for any fan boys or fan girls that make an appearance, as has happened here in other threads when other stories have been covered (like Tony Jones, “pastor” in Minnesota).

    The rest of us are a smart, savvy, (spiritual) bunch and we can handle the discussion. In fact the transparency is actually important.

  249. Shauna wrote:

    The problem is no attorney in this area will touch it because this is a good ole boy town.

    Go back to the district attorney’s office, the ones that prosecuted the case. Ask them to handle it, including getting an injunction/restraining order against this offender’s family.

  250. No worries Ann I thought was the case but wasn’t sure velour cleared up immediately It makes total sense and your 100% right! I’m with you on thatAnn wrote:

    Shauna, My comments were aimed at the Greniers. I fear they may try to suck Dee into their family drama.
    Justed wanted to throw support behind Dee and assure her that her decisions on how to proceed with this thread is up to her. If she is feeling manipulated by the family-there is no shame in ending this thread. She is not responsible for any dysfunction in the family and not her burden to fix.
    I adore Dee and Deb and would hate to see the Greniers situation cause them any sleepless nights. I support Dee no matter what she decides. But I wish I could protect her from people who may use this forum for self promotion,
    Shauna, I was not directing my comments to you or other commenters. I am sorry if you took offense.

  251. No offense taken your so right I’m sorry if i came across that wayVelour wrote:

    Shauna wrote:

    The problem is no attorney in this area will touch it because this is a good ole boy town.

    Go back to the district attorney’s office, the ones that prosecuted the case. Ask them to handle it, including getting an injunction/restraining order against this offender’s family.

  252. Velour wrote:

    Yes, Jack, Alex took money. He repeatedly asked people for money and he had a fundraising website on his blog to pay his legal expenses.

    So he’s a con man. He was dishonest, he took money and everything is just a big misunderstanding?
    Look, I know forgiveness is like catnip for Christians, but am I missing something?

  253. Jack wrote:

    So he’s a con man. He was dishonest, he took money and everything is just a big misunderstanding?
    Look, I know forgiveness is like catnip for Christians, but am I missing something?

    I think you may be having a twilight zone moment as I had a few days ago regarding this subject . . . 😉

  254. I have to show that she is saying names but she’s not saying names on the Facebook but all the members that are on her Facebook know who she’s talking about and again it’s just a matter of others asking questions to find out who it is she speaking of A majority of those on her Facebook are members of the church and people of this community. The right time will present itself with an attorneyand pursuing them legally. I’m just a bit frustrated having to defend my son and myself from people who should be apologizing at the very least. I’m just stunned that we never so much is got so much as a boo from them or I’m sorry my kid hurt your child. It still amazes me at the lack of empathy compassion kindness that people fail to express when either they have done something wrong or someone that they are responsible for has committed a criminal act. Instead they lie justify and make up a story that fits their narrative rather than the truth. That that is what is happened in our case not only do I have the parents doing this but I have the pastor encouraging it and doing it himself. Then I have a bunch of elders and leaders in this church who support the pastor in the family doing this and carry on with the lies unbelievable. This is why I say that pastors have a lot of power and wait over Church members especially those who have been victimized either by predators or spiritual abuse it’s not a fair playing ground. This is not a game but unfortunately members of a body do get caught up in these little games that the pastors play because They need to protect the reputation and their money. Again I see it’s all about the money it’s never going to change that’s the way it’s always going to be so unfortunatly this is the web that victims can get caught up in and the only remedy is we have is the lot outside the church which is established by God and the courts will advocate and give a victims a place of remedy. Unfortunately we should be getting it in the church and it doesn’t happen I’m sure they’re rare occasions where there are churches that do the right thing. I wish I could find one of those churches here I’m sure they exist I just had a mini easy to find one and to be honest I haven’t sought went out early either.>Velour wrote:

    Shauna wrote:

    The problem is no attorney in this area will touch it because this is a good ole boy town.

    Go back to the district attorney’s office, the ones that prosecuted the case. Ask them to handle it, including getting an injunction/restraining order against this offender’s family.

  255. Velour-I hate to sound like I wanted Dee to shut down the thread or that I don’t recognize how savvy her readers are.
    I just know that this has been very difficult and time consuming for Dee and wanted to let her know I would support her pulling out of this fiasco if it distracts her from other priorities. Sometimes we don’t know how complex a situation can get until we are in the middle of it.
    Again, Dee and Deb do amazing work. I would hate to see them burn-out if the Greniers put pressure on them. I guess I feel protective and don’t want either one of them to lose sleep over decisions they make about any post. That having been said, I am enjoying the different perspectives on the situation. Velour and Shauna add a lot to the discussion.

  256. And I believe you’re right and I think most here share the same feelings you do about this whole situation. And I think the readers here believe that Dan dab tried to do the right thing and unfortunately it’s gotten a little crazy. I agree that if they need to step back from this situation I don’t think anybody here would disagree with that I think everybody understands I’m learning a lot from all the different perspectives and opinions here. Given the situation it is a very touchy subject but we can’t tiptoe around either . And I believe that had the grantors not come to D and Deb to remove her scrub these post we would be talking about it anyways because they did go public to begin with. They didn’t just keep it between them and their church for right now I’m not saying that that’s wrong or right I’m just saying that given the situation there’s going to be backlash but at the same time there’s hope for restoration.@ Ann:

  257. Ann wrote:

    I just know that this has been very difficult and time consuming for Dee and wanted to let her know I would support her pulling out of this fiasco if it distracts her from other priorities. Sometimes we don’t know how complex a situation can get until we are in the middle of it.

    I think this is a discussion worth having.
    In our jurisdiction Alex could be investigated for mischief if a police investigation was involved. I am not a legal expert but taking money under false pretense has to be some form of racketeering.
    The church operates on a low to no accountability model that the blog has repeatedly warned against.
    Julie Ann and TWW have now reversed positions it seems. It really couldn’t get any more odd. It’s good intentions run amok.
    The good people scramble while these clowns ride off into the sunset with a bag of cash and the family business intact.
    Interviews in the Christian media, tear jerking videos, oh why can these nasty skeptics not just get on their knees and bask in our joy (and perhaps send in a small non taxable donation )

    TWW have gone up against worse than this. Dee put it nicely, a lesson learned. This blog is worth an army of Greniers. Everyone got played. Sure, move on but let’s look at this through the lens of Christian trends.

    Alex even sicced God on us like some sort of divine chihuahua.

    And all I have in the house is a feathered boa, a bottle of Windsor 5 star and half a box of chicken nuggets.

    I’m either girding for spiritual warfare or heading out to a rave.

  258. In our jurisdiction Alex could be investigated for mischief if a police investigation was involved. I am not a legal expert but taking money under false pretense has to be some form of racketeering.

    So are you believing that Alex knowingly asked for money to pay for a situation he knew wasn’t true? If so, I have no idea how you are coming to that conclusion.

  259. @ Julie Anne:
    One of your comments hinted at it:

    “I believe Alex believed it to be true at the time. We know the physical abuse he incurred did happen. But some of the other stories changed. Does it mean that Alex lied or that he innocently passed along gross exaggerations or lies? I believe it was the latter.”

    Alex claimed he was abused. He would know if he was, right?

    You have repeated this several times in various ways:

    “This is a very messy and complicated situation. If you are feeling used, angry, disappointed, attacked, shut down, etc, you are absolutely justified in those responses and I completely get it.”

    I have focused on facts that are public. It’s not really that complicated at all. I don’t seperate the spiritual from reason. I do not feel angry, confused, etc. I am confused why you want people to stop talking about what is public. I get that you identify with Alex. But you sound a lot like some pastors who use the same strategy trying to get people to stop asking uncomfortable questions. And from what I can tell, you have a lot of influence in the spiritual abuse world. That is a huge responsibility. I hope things are not going backwards.

    Again, I have no problem with reconciliation. I have issues with their big media approach while claiming it is private. The media approach is the opposite of “giving it time”. I wonder now if a book deal is not far behind. This is the Christian Industrial Complex at it’s worst.

  260. Because I have severe limitations on my time and energy in recent months, I’ve not commented frequently on survivor blogs. But I felt the need to post something on this thread because of my prior work with Alex and what I see as some unwarranted conclusions about him and his website.

    I was one of the main people who helped Alex about four years ago create the in-depth analysis pages that he posted on his blog about the lawsuit – the page and many subpages labeled the “Grenier Defamation Lawsuit Archive.” I worked many hours to absorb whatever details were available from depositions, online materials, etc., and research them further where possible. My goal was to compile timelines, develop frameworks, and describe events with as accurate an analysis as possible from all the information accessible at that time.

    If you are familiar with my work on other case studies dealing with spiritual abuse, you’ll have a good idea of just what that means. That “Lawsuit Archive” was something like about 10,000 words at least, and Alex reviewed everything I produced and it was his decision on what to post.

    More recently, the information base changed as sworn statements were recanted, articles withdrawn, etc. I have not kept up with all of this, as my obligations have been elsewhere. I am posting this background information for those of you who seem to be on the verge of suggesting that Alex has been scamming people. That is not the Alex I know. And if that were who Alex really was, I would not have helped him with the research writing that I did. I believe he — and I — were working in good faith with the information we had access to.

    This does not excuse Alex for his aggressive comments and crass responses on this thread. It also doesn’t mean I “get it” about the changes that have happened and the reported reconciliations – I’m still processing that. It simply means if you think Alex has been scamming on this whole thing, now you know that you are including me with that accusation.

    I still have a connection with Alex and care about his spiritual well-being, as I care about the well-being of readers here at TWW. This thread has sparked spin-offs from the main issue for important topics that need to be addressed. But frankly, I think that would be better done in new threads that don’t require this context, and that this one would best be tied off.

    Thank you for hearing me out on my concerns.

    ~ Brad

  261. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    This does not excuse Alex for his aggressive comments and crass responses on this thread. It also doesn’t mean I “get it” about the changes that have happened and the reported reconciliations – I’m still processing that. It simply means if you think Alex has been scamming on this whole thing, now you know that you are including me with that accusation.

    That’s actually not what is being said, Brad.

    Did you ask for money on Alex’s behalf? If “no”, then you aren’t included in the accusation.

  262. Ann wrote:

    I guess I feel protective and don’t want either one of them to lose sleep over decisions they make about any post.

    Yes, we’re all concerned for them.

    Thankfully they and Guy Behind the Curtain have enough protocols in place to protect the blog and the threads, as they have had to exercise on this one.

    Like I said, I wouldn’t want the thread shut down which would play into that family’s (Bob, Alex) demands.

  263. Julie Anne wrote:

    So are you believing that Alex knowingly asked for money to pay for a situation he knew wasn’t true? If so, I have no idea how you are coming to that conclusion.

    I said “could be” so it’s not a foregone conclusion. But it does beg the question “where did the money go?”.
    Why is there no mention of repatriation?
    Cui bono?
    No accountibility.
    This is one of the main reasons I pitched religion in general and Christianity in particular, particularly evangelical Christianity – don’t ask, just give.
    If God hadn’t been involved or invoked, how many would have given?

    No one mentioned the money.

    From my perspective, this issue is how a positive aspect of the faith ( forgiveness) is manipulated.

    TWW was in a compromising position. The Greniers played this situation to the hilt.

    Their family business will come out of this. No one will want to touch them with a barge pole.

    Business as usual. The sheep need fleecing and business is good.

  264. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    This thread has sparked spin-offs from the main issue for important topics that need to be addressed. But frankly, I think that would be better done in new threads that don’t require this context, and that this one would best be tied off.

    I disagree with you, Brad.

    Important issues have been discussed that are just as essential to this main topic.

    If the New York Times were covering this story, you can bet they’d also be covering the financial angle/fundraising.

  265. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    It simply means if you think Alex has been scamming on this whole thing, now you know that you are including me with that accusation

    So there was so much work, so much research, so many people invested and poof. Nothing. Now there’s no need to check into what happened?

    Something went very wrong here.

    Ack! This is going circular. I’m not even Christian.

    People are claiming this is just a big mistake.

    You guys have the ‘in’ so go nuts.

    I am well and truly done!

    TWw – feel free to pull my comments on this thread.

    Been a slice, folks!

    Peace out.

  266. @ Jack:
    I really wish you wouldn’t go. I appreciate your comments in the mess. I think that you will find my post in a couple of weeks more to your liking.

  267. Let me clarify, Brad. There is a good possibility that Alex does not really know himself due to how he was raised in that CC leadership environment. But I do understand your position. Been there. It’s all upside down.

  268. Jack wrote:

    I said “could be” so it’s not a foregone conclusion. But it does beg the question “where did the money go?”.
    Why is there no mention of repatriation?
    Cui bono?

    Great question! How much money was raised and where did it go? I think these are fair questions that should be answered.

  269. The defemation suit came based on his lie. I don’t get what your helping or peoples retraction of depositions , articles and such have to do with it. But for the lie there would be no lawsuit there would be no need to raise money! Am I wrong or misinformed?brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Because I have severe limitations on my time and energy in recent months, I’ve not commented frequently on survivor blogs. But I felt the need to post something on this thread because of my prior work with Alex and what I see as some unwarranted conclusions about him and his website.

    I was one of the main people who helped Alex about four years ago create the in-depth analysis pages that he posted on his blog about the lawsuit – the page and many subpages labeled the “Grenier Defamation Lawsuit Archive.” I worked many hours to absorb whatever details were available from depositions, online materials, etc., and research them further where possible. My goal was to compile timelines, develop frameworks, and describe events with as accurate an analysis as possible from all the information accessible at that time.

    If you are familiar with my work on other case studies dealing with spiritual abuse, you’ll have a good idea of just what that means. That “Lawsuit Archive” was something like about 10,000 words at least, and Alex reviewed everything I produced and it was his decision on what to post.

    More recently, the information base changed as sworn statements were recanted, articles withdrawn, etc. I have not kept up with all of this, as my obligations have been elsewhere. I am posting this background information for those of you who seem to be on the verge of suggesting that Alex has been scamming people. That is not the Alex I know. And if that were who Alex really was, I would not have helped him with the research writing that I did. I believe he — and I — were working in good faith with the information we had access to.

    This does not excuse Alex for his aggressive comments and crass responses on this thread. It also doesn’t mean I “get it” about the changes that have happened and the reported reconciliations – I’m still processing that. It simply means if you think Alex has been scamming on this whole thing, now you know that you are including me with that accusation.

    I still have a connection with Alex and care about his spiritual well-being, as I care about the well-being of readers here at TWW. This thread has sparked spin-offs from the main issue for important topics that need to be addressed. But frankly, I think that would be better done in new threads that don’t require this context, and that this one would best be tied off.

    Thank you for hearing me out on my concerns.

    ~ Brad

  270. Shauna wrote:

    The defemation suit came based on his lie. I don’t get what your helping or peoples retraction of depositions , articles and such have to do with it. But for the lie there would be no lawsuit there would be no need to raise money! Am I wrong or misinformed?

    You are misinformed and there is information missing that I hope to be able to share if all of the parties agree. People who supported Alex should be able to have a general idea of what happened and it’s obvious that has not been made very clear. I apologize if I have contributed to that confusion. I am trying to be very careful in what I say because of confidentiality reasons.

    There are a couple of people I highly respect when it comes to understanding the system of spiritual abuse. Brad Sargent aka futuristguy is one of them. One of the expressions I often hear from him is “do no harm.”

    Part of my job is to try to communicate in a way that gives enough information so that people can understand, but also do it in a way that does not cause harm to those who are vulnerable. This is one of those precarious cases where due diligence is essential. It’s not a neat and tidy case.

  271. @ Shauna:

    We don’t know that either, Shauna, about the lawsuit. (And isn’t Bob supposed to step down as a pastor at Calvary Chapel for suing anyone? Doesn’t that Biblically disqualify him?)

    As An Attorney, LawProf, and others speculated up the thread that this whole situation, including demands that the blogs be scrubbed, smacks of settlement.

  272. Julie Anne wrote:

    You are misinformed and there is information missing that I hope to be able to share if all of the parties agree.

    Julie Anne,

    Why don’t you ask Bob and Alex point blank if these demands to scrub the internet of stories, etc. are based on a legal settlement?

    Why don’t you ask them to sign waivers so that you, Dee and Deb can talk to their attorneys of record?

  273. Jack wrote:

    So there was so much work, so much research, so many people invested and poof. Nothing. Now there’s no need to check into what happened?
    Something went very wrong here.
    Ack! This is going circular. I’m not even Christian.
    People are claiming this is just a big mistake.

    I am in 100% agreement with you, Jack.

  274. Julie Anne wrote:

    There was no settlement. Bob dismissed it after Alex called him to ask forgiveness. This is in the video, I believe.

    Julie Anne,

    You don’t actually know that. I don’t care what the video says.

    I work in law and this smacks of settlement, like all of those who work in law up the thread have said.

  275. Julie Anne wrote:

    There are a couple of people I highly respect when it comes to understanding the system of spiritual abuse. Brad Sargent aka futuristguy is one of them. One of the expressions I often hear from him is “do no harm.”

    I don’t appreciate Brad’s trying to shut down this thread and his ‘no talk rules’. And your defending him isn’t ok with me either.

    I normally get along with both of you.

    But this stance you’ve taken to shut down transparent, adult conversations is NOT ok.

  276. If you normally get along and agree with us, then perhaps that should be a clue that you do not have all of the information which is what I’ve been trying to say. Trying to spin this and speculate is not helpful. In fact, it is harmful.

    I repeat what I originally sent to Shauna:

    You are misinformed and there is information missing that I hope to be able to share if all of the parties agree. People who supported Alex should be able to have a general idea of what happened and it’s obvious that has not been made very clear. I apologize if I have contributed to that confusion. I am trying to be very careful in what I say because of confidentiality reasons.

  277. Julie Anne wrote:

    If you normally get along and agree with us, then perhaps that should be a clue that you do not have all of the information which is what I’ve been trying to say. Trying to spin this and speculate is not helpful. In fact, it is harmful.
    I repeat what I originally sent to Shauna:
    You are misinformed and there is information missing that I hope to be able to share if all of the parties agree. People who supported Alex should be able to have a general idea of what happened and it’s obvious that has not been made very clear. I apologize if I have contributed to that confusion. I am trying to be very careful in what I say because of confidentiality reasons.

    Wow, Julie Anne!

    I’m misinformed? Come again?

    Alex took money from people at large and then he comes here and blasts at people and abuses them? And all you do is defend the guy?

    You are misinformed, Julie Anne. This IS NOT how proper amends are EVER supposed to be made.

    I’m with Jack. Who cares how much research Brad did on this if Brad missed the boat by a country mile.

  278. Julie Anne wrote:

    eople who supported Alex should be able to have a general idea of what happened and it’s obvious that has not been made very clear.

    Alex should make a full financial amends to the people he took money from, including paying them all back!

  279. Julie Anne wrote:

    If you normally get along and agree with us, then perhaps that should be a clue that you do not have all of the information which is what I’ve been trying to say.

    Thank you for your efforts to clarify a baffling story. I will point out, as mildly as I possibly can, that “you do not have all the information” is a message abusive churches use to discredit victims and witnesses who challenge a suspected cover-up.

    That is not what you’re doing, of course. However, in the aftermath of the recantation of a story of abuse, in the TWW forum, several ordinarily neutral messages (the above) and activities (fund raising) have become somewhat radioactive.

    Again, I truly appreciate your efforts, and those of the Deebs.

  280. Hi Friend,

    Thank you for your comment. I think you are correct. My words have triggered the same kind of response that others heard from their abusers. I feel very badly about that which is why I apologized above for contributing to the confusion.

    I do want to reiterate that I disagreed with how Bob and Alex came here and spoke to the readers here. In fact, I point blank called Alex on it (privately) and he received my criticism graciously and acknowledged that he did not do well here. He feels very bad about how he handled himself here and wanted me to apologize for how he came across. Those who know Alex knows that he is reactionary and sometimes posts without thinking when he is roused up. The way in which he responded did not help things at all. He also made a point to mention Shauna as well and felt bad for the way he addressed her and her abuse situation. He is truly sorry for the harm he caused.

    If the wording of the above doesn’t come across right, blame it on me, JA. I heard his apology. It was sincere. That is the message I want to make sure is conveyed.

    I also don’t agree with Bob in how this has become a public display. I will be bringing this up with him when I talk to him. Nobody coached Alex on how to share this info with the public. The main thing on Bob and Alex’s mind was that their relationship was restored. This was monumental for them. Unfortunately, the idea of sharing transparently what transpired to all of the people who supported Alex was an afterthought. This oversight has resulted in confusion as we can see here.

    Since I was a big part of sharing Alex’s original story, it makes sense that I try to help share what has happened since. I hope to be able to do that. Again, I apologize to any of you who were harmed by my words. I want to be as transparent as possible and help those who supported Alex understand what has happened. It’s going to take a bit of time, though.

  281. Julie Anne wrote:

    Since I was a big part of sharing Alex’s original story, it makes sense that I try to help share what has happened since. I hope to be able to do that. Again, I apologize to any of you who were harmed by my words. I want to be as transparent as possible and help those who supported Alex understand what has happened. It’s going to take a bit of time, though.

    IMO, this is just a garbled mess at this point. People do not know who to believe and the I heard his apology and it was sincere may not fix everything. I am greatly disturbed what I have seen happen here. I just do not find the they all lived happily ever after scenario working here.

  282. Julie Anne wrote:

    I do want to reiterate that I disagreed with how Bob and Alex came here and spoke to the readers here. In fact, I point blank called Alex on it (privately) and he received my criticism graciously and acknowledged that he did not do well here. He feels very bad about how he handled himself here and wanted me to apologize for how he came across. Those who know Alex knows that he is reactionary and sometimes posts without thinking when he is roused up. The way in which he responded did not help things at all. He also made a point to mention Shauna as well and felt bad for the way he addressed her and her abuse situation. He is truly sorry for the harm he caused.
    If the wording of the above doesn’t come across right, blame it on me, JA. I heard his apology. It was sincere. That is the message I want to make sure is conveyed.
    I also don’t agree with Bob in how this has become a public display. I will be bringing this up with him when I talk to him. Nobody coached Alex on how to share this info with the public. The main thing on Bob and Alex’s mind was that their relationship was restored. This was monumental for them. Unfortunately, the idea of sharing transparently what transpired to all of the people who supported Alex was an afterthought. This oversight has resulted in confusion as we can see here.
    Since I was a big part of sharing Alex’s original story, it makes sense that I try to help share what has happened since. I hope to be able to do that. Again, I apologize to any of you who were harmed by my words. I want to be as transparent as possible and help those who supported Alex understand what has happened. It’s going to take a bit of time, though.

    Thank you so much, Julie Anne, for endeavoring to explain and clarify a VERY complicated situation. I don’t know the real goings on – what might be called the under belly – of this family crisis which involved others outside of the Grenier family – anymore than most of the commenters here. It’s understandable that there are folks who are upset, especially if they contributed time and money to the cause which is now no longer a “cause.”

    I also recognize that speculating about the inner workings of this debacle will not help in arriving at the Actual Truth of the matter. That something isn’t right, that something went very wrong, that something still does not add up – most assuredly seems to be the case. I also think that more information about what actually happened and what is going on now, will come out.

    I trust you, Julie Anne, because I have seen your efforts in defending and supporting victims of all kinds of abuse over and over again. I believe you to be a genuine person who has concern and compassion toward victims of abuse. So, I will trust that what you have said regarding this Grenier family situation is true, because you certainly know more about it than I do. I hope and pray that you will succeed in helping to untangle and clarify some of the mess that this family tragedy has caused. God speed!

  283. dee wrote:

    I really wish you wouldn’t go. I appreciate your comments in the mess. I think that you will find my post in a couple of weeks more to your liking.

    Looking at my comment, it’s a little over dramatized.

    I blame the feathered boa. It brings out my inner diva.

    So I sentenced myself to an afternoon of hard labour. Pulled up an old patio. Literally breaking rocks. But it’s now gone and has been replaced by fresh soil ready for grass seed.

    I still think this situation has an odd smell to it.

    As money was involved, I respectfully disagree with those defending the Greniers. My opinion is there is a lot of manipulation going on. Alex sends Julie Ann to apologize for him? Yet he was loud and proud up thread. This is not a man who shys from the spotlight. But…I’ll leave it there.

    Please continue to stay victim focused.

    Looking forward to upcoming installments.

    Take care.

  284. mot wrote:

    IMO, this is just a garbled mess at this point. People do not know who to believe

    I think it was Colonel Mustard in the Conservatory with a candle stick.

  285. @ Jack:

    “I blame the feathered boa. It brings out my inner diva.”
    +++++++++++++

    i think you should put the feathered boa away. We like you here.

    (what do you do with the feathered boa?)

  286. Jack you make some good points glad to see you comment.
    Pray for billy tonight. He’s laying in my bed next to me. We are having another bad night of dreams. This is the first time he has come to my room in awhile. So, they must be pretty bad. Since I have been home he seems to feel a little more secure. I feel so guilty that I let this job I just left dictate me working through the night. I hate to think how many nights I wasn’t here to help my son. Anyways He had a few meltdowns at school today. This is due to his difficulties sleeping he wasn’t himself. He got in trouble and this is why I struggle with when to keep billy home after a rough night of no sleep. He can go from zero to one hundred fast and he reacts differently to situations where when he’s not having difficulties he’s more calm rational can reason easily.
    This is my struggle as I help billy navigate life after rape. Trying to normalize his life but be on guard with his after care. Billy is resting soundly now. I have some peace knowing he feels safe enough to finally close his eyes. Thanks for praying Jack wrote:

    dee wrote:

    I really wish you wouldn’t go. I appreciate your comments in the mess. I think that you will find my post in a couple of weeks more to your liking.

    Looking at my comment, it’s a little over dramatized.

    I blame the feathered boa. It brings out my inner diva.

    So I sentenced myself to an afternoon of hard labour. Pulled up an old patio. Literally breaking rocks. But it’s now gone and has been replaced by fresh soil ready for grass seed.

    I still think this situation has an odd smell to it.

    As money was involved, I respectfully disagree with those defending the Greniers. My opinion is there is a lot of manipulation going on. Alex sends Julie Ann to apologize for him? Yet he was loud and proud up thread. This is not a man who shys from the spotlight. But…I’ll leave it there.

    Please continue to stay victim focused.

    Looking forward to upcoming installments.

    Take care.

  287. elastigirl wrote:

    i think you should put the feathered boa away. We like you here.

    (what do you do with the feathered boa?)

    Thank you. Said boa currently resides in the basement. A ghost from Halloween past.

    It served as a prop for my joke.

    Up thread, the man of the hour stated that God would deal with us in some way.

    I suppose that’s true for all folks (if that’s your persuasion) but it does highlight (discussing as a Christian trend) how some people reduce God to a magical fetish. Like a lucky rabbit’s foot or in this case a voodoo type curse.

    Looking at all the suffering in the world, it’s not that simple.

    I saw a bumper sticker once that said something to the effect “125 000 children will starve to death today. Why should God hear your prayer?”

    I’m not whether prayer works or not, but it does put into perspective what are we praying for.

    In the case of a starving child, our actions may be the answer to that prayer.

    Anyway I think it’s more than invoking an angry sky deity to do your bidding.

  288. Velour wrote:

    Wow, Julie Anne!

    I’m misinformed? Come again?

    Alex took money from people at large and then he comes here and blasts at people and abuses them? And all you do is defend the guy?

    You are misinformed, Julie Anne. This IS NOT how proper amends are EVER supposed to be made.

    It seems there a type of Stockholm Syndrome coming into play here with those defending him.

  289. Jack you make an interesting point! I can tell you your right it’s not so simple. However let me put something out there and it’s just to give all of us something to think about. What would our planet look like if every believer every professing Christian were removed from here? If everyone did what was right in their own eyes? There was no bible and there was no Father God , the son, and Holy Spirit present in the lives of humanity? I’m being specific here with who God is because people have created many Gods apart from Him. God would still be God but if He gave this world over to themselves? Now whether you believe He exists or not doesn’t change the fact that there is a creater. The fool says in his heart there is no God.
    Anyways it’s just something to think about you don’t have to agree. I am a Christian follower of Christ Jesus. I do know suffering in one aspect as does my child. He struggles with why it happened to him still. He struggles with God and that’s ok because he asked where was God when I was crying for help mom? I told him he answered the instant I thought to go check on you. I don’t know why my son or why people suffer but unfortunately jack we live in an evil world and the one good thing is Jesus. People starve because others are wicked and take food and orthers are selfish not to give it. If we have free will then our will would no longer be free to choose if God makes choices for us we then become robots. God is a jealous God who desires fellowship with His creation freely He is a good Good but also a God of justice and we know His justice will be carried out in His time. He is also patient and gives us so many chances Jack wrote:

    elastigirl wrote:

    i think you should put the feathered boa away. We like you here.

    (what do you do with the feathered boa?)

    Thank you. Said boa currently resides in the basement. A ghost from Halloween past.

    It served as a prop for my joke.

    Up thread, the man of the hour stated that God would deal with us in some way.

    I suppose that’s true for all folks (if that’s your persuasion) but it does highlight (discussing as a Christian trend) how some people reduce God to a magical fetish. Like a lucky rabbit’s foot or in this case a voodoo type curse.

    Looking at all the suffering in the world, it’s not that simple.

    I saw a bumper sticker once that said something to the effect “125 000 children will starve to death today. Why should God hear your prayer?”

    I’m not whether prayer works or not, but it does put into perspective what are we praying for.

    In the case of a starving child, our actions may be the answer to that prayer.

    Anyway I think it’s more than invoking an angry sky deity to do your bidding.

  290. I guess another question to ask is why would men and women pass by starving homeless people on the street and act as if they are not there. Is this God or is this people? Sorry can’t ask God why don’t you do something when we have the ability to do something. I have seen videos of children on the street in our own county hungry homeless yet people walk by say nothing do nothing. Parents allow their children to be abused or abuse them others know it yet do nothing so is it God or is it man? God didn’t make them do evil they choose@ Shauna:

  291. Shauna wrote:

    The fool says in his heart there is no God.
    Anyways it’s just something to think about you don’t have to agree.

    Like suffering, I think salvation is more complicated than that. You might be surprised who gets into heaven at the end of it all. There are a lot of good people of all faiths and no faith out there. This is just a general comment but when we put people into a bucket like “fool” we delineate them as somehow inferior.

    In a way it dehumanizes them and makes it somehow easier to put up walls. I don’t think this is your intent, your faith is very strong. Not all of us are as sure.

    Here’s how I would like to see religion enacted in the 21st century:

    Zechariah chapter 7 vs 9-10 Today’s English Version
    “Long ago I gave these commands to my people: ‘You must see that justice is done, and must show kindness and mercy to one another. Do not oppress widows, orphans, foreigners who live among you, or anyone else in need and do not plan ways of harming one another.”

  292. Jack wrote:

    Here’s how I would like to see religion enacted in the 21st century:
    Zechariah chapter 7 vs 9-10 Today’s English Version
    “Long ago I gave these commands to my people: ‘You must see that justice is done, and must show kindness and mercy to one another. Do not oppress widows, orphans, foreigners who live among you, or anyone else in need and do not plan ways of harming one another.”

    In Luke 6:31, Jesus said, “31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.”
    Yet, people have free-will whether or not to make that choice. People fail; God does not.
    I do believe that God answers the prayers of believers. But He answers on His time schedule, not ours. And He doesn’t always give us the answer we want. Sometimes He answers our prayers, and we are too blind to see it.

  293. Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart there is no God.
    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved.
    Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation
    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
    Ephesians 2:8,9 for it is by grace you have been saved through faith this not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.
    John 14:16 I AM the way the truth the life no man comes unto the Father but by Me.

    These are the words of my living and Holy God whom I serve. If they are offensive then it is God who offends not me. Your right though I mean no offense in what I say to anyone here. Jack your input has value.
    This is not a religion to me but a personal relationship with my God who lives in my Heart always as I have received His free gift and entered into an eternal fellowship with Him as my creator my savior and my Father. I don’t have all the answers on the why’s but I can tell you jack how he has held me in His hands my whole life and how He has changed my life in spite of circumstances. I still believe we need to fight for justice because it is Him who I represent and I don’t believe God wants us to remain passive. He works through believers to carry out some of His purposes. My life isn’t always roses and flowers I struggle greatly but I also experience Gods goodness in the midst of struggle

  294. I was orphaned and although didn’t experience the loss of a dead husband my ex husband abandoned both of us. It’s Christ who remains and who sustains the both of us. Sometimes I forget how good He is when I see that others suffer far worse and who are being persecuted.

  295. Velour your so incredibly amazing all of you are, ty you didn’t have to but because you did in grateful Velour wrote:

    @ Shauna:

    Shauna,

    I sent you and Billy some things. Should arrive on Monday. I sent priority mail.

  296. Shauna wrote:

    Velour your so incredibly amazing all of you are, ty you didn’t have to but because you did in grateful Velour wrote:
    @ Shauna:
    Shauna,
    I sent you and Billy some things. Should arrive on Monday. I sent priority mail.

    Welcome!

  297. Oh Dee, I’m so sorry for all of this. I didn’t realize how bad it had gotten here, and I will support whatever decision you and Deb make w/ all of this. 🙁

    Thank you for all you do to advocate for the abused. 🙁

  298. Although some strong opinions were shared I think this topic would have been unavoidable once TWW readers listened to or saw the Greiners very public reconciliation. After some thought this was the best thing for Dee and Deb as I believe they showed transparency in this situation. I don’t believe this is bad at all. In the end TWW was contacted by the Greiners and from what I believe they acted as I would have expected with much grace. However they know they have not only sharp readers but those who have experienced many types of abuses who I believe God has given discernment to a lot of TWW readers. We all sgare commonality in that our faith in Christ leads us to forgiveness but that doesn’t mean continue to get eaten by wolves either. I’m in no way saying the Greiners are wolves but the men in the family have revealed some things about themselves where we do have reason to tread with caution. With that said I think Dee posting was smart and it was the right thing to do. I also believe that there’s not a person here who doesn’t support Dee and Deb. These two ladies I believe are fabulous and they have fabulous readers/Christian community at TWW who care very deeply about those whose voices get lost in their home churches.

  299. @ Shauna:
    I salute Dee for making it known publicly that she is about to scrub the articles. Many so-called Christian blogs would simply scrub them and never say a word ..,,,, like “they never existed, comrade!”

  300. I agreeNancy2 wrote:

    @ Shauna:
    I salute Dee for making it known publicly that she is about to scrub the articles. Many so-called Christian blogs would simply scrub them and never say a word ..,,,, like “they never existed, comrade!”

  301. Velour this is Billy hey I really wanted to thank you for the packages or I am sorry were are my manners THANK YOU So much for your support it means a lot to me and my mom and moms are the best

  302. Shauna wrote:

    Velour this is Billy hey I really wanted to thank you for the packages or I am sorry were are my manners THANK YOU So much for your support it means a lot to me and my mom and moms are the best

    Hey Billy (and mom Shauna),

    I am so glad that you got the packages! I have been praying for both of you. And
    I tracked the packages from my state California to Texas. I’m so glad that they arrived.
    Woo hoo!

    Love and hugs, prayers and support,

    Velour

  303. Thank you velour that was incredibly sweet of you to do this. You lit up Billy’s day as he beat me home from school. I was able to clean a house today. Billy had a rough week last week. He loved everything and started eating some of the snacks you put in there. He loved the lemonade packs. I buy bottled water and that’s pretty much our drink of choice and thank goodness since I recently found out our drinking water is contaminated. They say it’s still drinkable but Billy and I don’t drink water out of the tap. Anyways he loves everything. The shirts are really nice thank you I love them.

  304. Shauna wrote:

    Thank you velour that was incredibly sweet of you to do this. You lit up Billy’s day as he beat me home from school. I was able to clean a house today. Billy had a rough week last week. He loved everything and started eating some of the snacks you put in there. He loved the lemonade packs. I buy bottled water and that’s pretty much our drink of choice and thank goodness since I recently found out our drinking water is contaminated. They say it’s still drinkable but Billy and I don’t drink water out of the tap. Anyways he loves everything. The shirts are really nice thank you I love them.

    You are so welcome, Shauna!

    I am so glad that Billy was perked up by his care package, snacks, etc. Yes, those little lemonade packets are great.

    I am glad you like the shirts and items in your care package.

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