"C.J. MAHANEY IS NOT HUMBLE. At least, that's what he'll tell you. And that's one reason he's so well-qualified to write this book. That's what I wrote about C.J. and this book ten years ago, and I feel that even more strongly now."
Mark Dever – Foreward in Mahaney's book Humility: True Greatness (link)
Are you familiar with Todd Wilhelm's testimony as a member of a 9Marks affiliated church? Some years ago he wrote us and shared his story. Todd had been approached by leaders in his church in Dubai to head up the book ministry. As a voracious reader, Todd was well-qualified for this responsibility. However, there was a problem…
Some years earlier Todd and his family had been members of a Sovereign Grace church when they lived stateside, and they were all too aware of the growing criticism regarding C.J. Mahaney, who was then president of Sovereign Grace Ministries. Todd agreed to serving the church through this book ministry with one condition – he could not in good conscience offer C.J. Mahaney's books.
The church leaders were not pleased with Todd's firm stand against Mahaney. In short order Todd and his wife realized they needed to resign from their church. Incredibly, it took many months for their names to be removed from the church roll. The Wilhelms were able to find another church to attend, and Todd now blogs about matters that are of great importance to him. One such matter is the promotion of C.J. Mahaney by his buddies like Mark Dever. Last week Todd published an excellent post which we are featuring below.
Please note: There are audio clips which we have been unsuccessful in uploading. When you see 'AUDIO', please go over to Todd's post to hear the clip.
Early in our blogging, Dee wrote a review of Mahaney's book about Humility, which you can access below. As you can see, she pegged it with her blog post title.
False Humility, True Hypocrisy: A Review of C.J. Mahaney's Book Humility, True Greatness
We are grateful to Todd for continuing to expose Mahaney, Dever, and their cohorts in the Neo-Cal movement.
Crooked Mahaney Corrupts Mark Dever (link)
Todd Wilhelm
No, you’re not seeing double! The more observant among you will have noticed that there has been a change in the most recent edition of C.J. Mahaney’s autobiography – Joshua Harris has been unceremoniously dumped, his foreword replaced by an equally flattering version penned by Mahaney’s Captain, Mark Dever.
Harris, a man intimately acquainted with the fragile psyche of Mahaney, had to know this was coming. Likely the only surprise was that it took so long to be purged from Mahaney’s “Humility: True Greatness” book. I would guess that Harris is actually relieved to have his foreword removed because what he wrote was pure flattery and lies, and that must weigh heavy on his conscience.
The average reader wouldn’t have known this until a few years ago; but as the unseemly tale of Mahaney’s corrupt ways came to light, we have all had the opportunity to understand what Mahaney’s colleagues knew for years, which is, far from being a role model for humility, Mahaney is actually a prideful, vindictive, insecure charlatan that drove dozens and dozens of leaders out of the Sovereign Grace denomination, and ultimately 100 pastors, 300 plus small group leaders, 40 churches including his home church (Covenant Life Church) and approx. 12,000 members from the Sovereign Grace Churches denomination. Giving declined by 67% or 3.3 million per year. The budget dropped from 6.6 million to 2.8 million. All because the man held up by Albert Mohler, Ligon Duncan and Mark Dever as the premier role model of humility is actually a real life model of the fictitious Elmer Gantry. More on this later, but first I want you to read the foreword Joshua Harris wrote.
Sounds great, doesn’t it? But as the saying goes “you don’t want to see sausage made because you will never again eat it,” what went on behind the scenes of Sovereign Grace will turn your stomach and crush the neatly manicured tale of C.J. Mahaney being a beacon of humility.
Readers would have done themselves a service if, after they read Mahaney’s opening lines in the Introduction they would have chucked the book in the bin and moved along to something more helpful; may I suggest “Green Eggs and Ham” by Dr. Seuss or “Crazy Busy” by Kevin DeYoung?
And you would be correct.
So let’s take a look at the Sovereign Grace Sausage Factory, shall we?
Below is an excerpt of a Mahaney sermon at Mark Dever’s Capitol Hill Baptist Church, March 30, 2003. On display is the typical Mahaney ploy of flattery and cash donations to obtain the friendship of a celebrity.
Now please read Mark Dever’s foreword to “Humility: True Greatness.”
It is telling that the first book Mark Dever has his new interns read is “Humilty: True Greatness.” It is actually shameful. Mark Dever has had an opportunity to read all the inside information published by those who spent years with C.J. Mahaney and actually know what type of an individual he is. Whether he has availed himself of that information is not known. What we do know is that Dever has repeatedly been the recipient of unabashed flattery by C.J. Mahaney, and at least ten thousand dollars of money tithed by Sovereign Grace members, perhaps much more. Flattery and cash have a tendency to influence a recipient to speak highly of the source, maybe even to offer a bit of flattery in return, which is what Dever’s foreword is.
Do you think Dever informs his young interns that the first book he assigns them to read on humility was authored by a man who was so proud that he chose to drive two-fifths of the churches in his denomination to depart the denomination rather than admit his sin? That he knowingly covered-up sexual abuse of children in his denomination, and then penned a false statement denying that he did any such thing? That he blackmailed the co-founder of the denominaton? That he set up a hush fund to keep a pastor quiet about the fact that his son was raped by another Sovereign Grace pastor’s son?
Do you think Dever informs his young interns that he allowed C.J. Mahaney to flee to his church to escape discipline at his home church? This in direct conflict with what 9Marks continually preaches on church discipline.
I doubt it. Dever wouldn’t want his interns to realize what a hypocrite he is, nor would he want to reveal that he either lacks discernment or has been corrupted by money and flattery, or both.
This from Brent Detwiler:
Finally, below is an excerpt of an email written by Bo Lotinksy to Brent Detwiler in 2012. Lotinksy was Executive Director (i.e., chief operating officer) of SGM for 14 years. He worked closely with C.J.Mahaney and knew him extremely well.
The audio below is Carl Trueman chastising the Christian celebrities at the 2012 T4G conference. All the celebrities on the panel applauded Trueman and outwardly agreed with his expressed sentiments, but apparently they were seething in their hearts. Trueman was never invited back and the same 12 celebrities are still the ones speaking at the high dollar conferences. (Inquiring minds would like to know the total renumeration each speaker at the last Together 4 the Gospel Conference received. Why is this information not readily available to the public?)
First, Wha?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0kcet4aPpQ
(Plus Chuckles has to show everyone how HUMBLE he is — chuckle chuckle)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEBW5AEHTSA
My memories of CHBC are good ones, of homey potlucks and what I at the time thought was interesting preaching by Dever. I am so sad to see this.
@ Lea:
Was Mahaney's stint at CHBC after you left the church?
Deb wrote:
Yes, it looks like it. I was there 96-98/99ish.
I was going to quote from Screwtape letter #14, but I’m not sure any of it fits Mahaney. What I see thus far is a man beset with pride, painfully aware that Christians (especially megachurch pastors) are supposed to be humble, and doing everything he can to at least put on a facade of humility. He needs his own parishioners to see him as humble as Wilbur the pig, plus it wins him accolades from the other big names in the YRR universe.
A book authored by Mahaney on “Humility: True Greatness1”?! It is an extreme stretch for a New Calvinist to claim to know anything about humility. There is an epidemic of arrogance in their ranks! If humility is a mark of a great leader, there are no great New Calvinist leaders.
If you’ve ever seen Mahaney in action, his humble pose doesn’t pass the smell test. He engages constantly in ostentatious displays of “humility”, including talking frequently about how much he lacks it! A truly humble person does not need to chatter endlessly about how humble they are or aren’t- they will just go about their business. And I’m sure that readers of this blog aware of how frequently Mahaney’s “humility” takes the form of shameless flattery of his benefactors. Perhaps this is the most glaring indicator that his “humble” persona is a con- when he wishes to portray himself as humble, rather than praising God he praises powerful men.
I don’t know, TBH.
Aw, CJM is so proud of his humility!!!
I have to say that I believe all of the Big Brand Boys that gave reviews of the book (and several more, besides) are hot on CJ’s heels for the grand prize in false humility.
Can anybody think of any famous mega-church pastors
/”Christian” evangelical leaders who actually exhibit humility in their day to day lives? Mahaney, Dever, Mohler, Chandler, Duncan, Driscoll, MacArthur, Grudem, Floyd, Gaines, Osteen, Platt, Piper, DeYoung, Greear, Wilson, the Bayly Boyz, Morris, Moore, Land, Furtick. …….. Oh, then there’s TT! I may be missing something, but I really can’t see much humility in any of these people.
NJ wrote:
Why in the world would the most prideful, haughty, vindictive, smugly arrogant crowd I have every had the displeasure of serving alongside give accolades for humility? One would think they’d despise it.
@ Law Prof:
You mean the crowd that shuts down any kind of criticism by no longer allowing commentary on their websites???
9Marks is the first one that comes to mind…
Maybe it’s time to gather together the nine real marks of Nine Marks. We could put False Humility on the list.
One of the 9Marks is to shut down anyone who dares to provide constructive criticism.
Law Prof wrote:
Why does the nastiest Third World dictatorship on Earth title itself the DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC of Korea?
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
The strange thing is that they don’t seem to be even pretending CJ is humble. It’s like, this guy is totally full of pride, so you should listen to him about humility. And the title is I guess going for cutesy, but just comes off as a big joke.
Everytime someone mentions this guy, I think of that creepy video about how women should be covered in a bag because men can’t stop thinking about them unless they do this. So gross.
My late grandfather was one of the most humble men I ever met. Yet, you would never ever have heard him talking about it. Like was said above, he went about working for God and doing the things no one wanted done. You didn’t have to ask for something to be done around the church, he just didn’t. You didn’t have to ask him for help when a family member was in need, he just automatically reached out to them. When grandpa prayed, if you were near him to hear it, you felt blessed by this man. I wonder what he would say about men like Mahaney, Dever and company. I’m sure he would give you an earful about Biblical humility and not once mention himself.
“Who knows? That ten-year-old boy running down the church hallway might one day be sitting behind my desk.” This, from Joshua Harris’ intro to “Humility,” had me wondering what he was running *from*.
As horrible as this situation is, I believe Dever’s foreword was at least not as fawning over CJ as opposed to the original foreword. Dever apparently benefits from his relationship with CJ-$$$, but he has toned down his rhetoric about the awesome CJ with this foreword.
Harley wrote:
Much less having Armorbearers in livery blowing long trumpets before him to announce how HUMBLE(TM) he is. (chuckle chuckle)
I wonder if Cee Jay et al ever rehearses being HUMBLE(TM) in the mirror like that death-camp Kommandant in Schindler’s List?
Edward wrote:
“I could say to you we’ve not been given Dr. Mohler’s gifts, and it would be useless for me to encourage anyone to imitate Dr. Mohler’s mental ability … I’ve seen his stack of books. If you have a stack of books, I’m saying there’s quite a difference, pretty obvious difference, between your stack and his stack of books. So if you are comforting yourself, ‘I have a stack,’ well you might have a stack, but if we consider the nature and content of your stack as opposed to his stack, well, your stack looks pretty sorry and pathetic.” (C.J. Mahaney)
What a goober!
Max wrote:
On the contrary, scribsher very clearly teaches that the great among us will be those who fashion the biggest stack of books, since God will hear us because of our many words.
At least, that’s probably what it teaches.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The last shall be first, and the first last.
Max wrote:
Translation: if you were thinking ‘why am I supposed to be impressed that this guy bought some books, or maybe even read them’ STOP thinking that because you have no idea how awesome and important his books are. They don’t sell them to just anybody.
I remember being on vacation and some guy telling me that the Canadian education system was so much better than the Us because he read some book and I was like, oh did they assign that in your class, and he goes ‘no I read it on my own’ and thinking that guy was kind of weird for expecting me to be impressed he read a book for fun…I bet CJ has had similar conversations many times.
Max wrote:
Besides revealing his own oleaginous nature, I think that Mahaney’s blatant flattery also reveals the sizable egos of the Top Men that he seeks to flatter. Most of the pastors I’ve known that serve humbly at small churches would be mortified to receive such an over-the-top extended ego massage in front of their congregation. It’s telling that none of these guys (Mohler, Dever, Duncan, etc.) has gone to Mahaney after one of his lavish flatter-a-thons and said “Please don’t do that- it makes me uncomfortable”.
Might I suggest a theme song for CJ, called “I’m So Humble.” Just exchange “pastor” for “rockstar” and it just might fit.
https://youtu.be/sKIZesnQstQ
Anyone else find it interesting that folks like Mark Jones (rightly I might add) are letting the world know how sinful and disqualifying the actions of Tullian are and yet CJ is just fine. the same ones rightly putting TT either said nothing or defended to the death the actions of CJ and his complex.
I think I agree with the sentiments in one of the blog posts of DG Hart, an Orthodox Presbyterian. “Evangelicalism: Blow it up”
My prayer daily is “Lord help me and my family find a church that holds to its confession, doesn’t fall for the evangelical trap of being cool and relevant, and truly cares for the sheep in their care.” Amen. He hasn’t answered yet but I will keep waiting.
Hi Todd
You ask…
“Has C.J. Mahaney Corrupted Mark Dever?”
Well – Hasn’t The Whole Religious System, for 1700 years, been *Totally Corrupt?*
With…
1 – Pastor/Elder/Overseers who do NOT meet the qualifications found in the Bible?
…..(1. Must be Blameless? 2. Holy? 3. Just? 4. Rule well their own house? etc.)
2 – Multiple thousands of denominations NOT found in the Bible?
…..(Baptist, Presbyterian., Catholic, Lutheran, Assembly of God. etc.)
3 – Multiple Movements NOT found in the Bible?
…..(Reformed, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Emergent, YRR, etc.)
4 – Abusive Heirarchy – Abusive Authoritarians – NOT found in the Bible?
…..(Who Exercise Authority like the gentiles and lord it over God’s heritage.)
5 – Traditions of men – NOT found in the Bible?
…..(Money as a Tithe, Go to church, Join a church, church membership. etc).
…..(Paid, Professional, Pastors, in Pulpits, Preaching, to People, in Pews.)
6 – Titles/Positions NOT in the found Bible?
Where is Pastor/Leader/Reverend in the Bible? Clergy? Doctor? Reverend? Most Holy Reverend? Cardinal? Pope? Senior Pastor? Lead Pastor? Executive Pastor? And the list goes on, and on, and…
Titles – Titles – Everywhere – Except in the Bible. 🙁
Titles that come with – Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Recognition…
ALL those things highly esteemed among men…
But… is abomination in the sight of God.
Corrupt – Dictionary
1 – showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
2 – in a state of decay; rotten or putrid.
3 – debased or made unreliable by errors or alterations.
Isn’t “Today’s Corrupt Religious System” filled with those having
“a willingness to act dishonestly?” – And are after – Power – Profit – Prestige…
1 – “money and personal gain” (Celebrity Pastors, Authors, Conference speakers.)
2 – and make “Today’s Religious System” “unreliable by errors or alterations,” to the Bible. Alterations to – How the Bible describes “His Church?” Alterations to – How the Bible describes Qualifications for Overseer? Alterations to – How the Bible describes His Disciples? And the list goes on, and on, and…
And because of these “errors and alterations” to the qualifications of Elder/Overseer
3 – “The Corrupt Religious System” is “in a state of decay, rotten and putrid.”
And believers are now leaving Todays Corrupt Religious System by the millions.
And turning to The “ONE” Shepherd – The “ONE” Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
I wasn’t really admiring his stack; that was just locker room talk!
Max wrote:
I can’t disagree. I went to THE new calvinist seminary, and to this day I am painfully embarrassed by the arrogance and pride that I funded. To look back and see how some of these folks behaved is still shameful. TBH, the faculty was significantly worse than the students. I guess it starts at the top. You can’t live like an aristocrat in a plantation mansion with a chauffeured car and be humble.
Edward wrote:
A long-lost virtue among Americans at least is modesty. Believe it or not, the virtue has nothing to do with nudity. It has to do with flaunting differences between people. It is fundamentally impossible for Mahaney (or anyone) to arrive at a conference, go stand on an elevated platform behind a velvet rope, bequeath his sacred wisdom to the masses, and be modest. By definition. Think about it.
Nancy2 wrote:
Wow. I actually took the time to think through every name on that list, and you’re right. Wow.
I may have shared this before, but I remember running into Mahaney at a pretentious hipster bar a few years back. Frankly, I’d have rather run into him with a Mack truck. And before you go judging, it is the only bar in Louisville that serves Oslo. Anyway, he actually had a young man with him who was doing all the ordering, etc. It was so weird. And he isn’t nice or humble or anything in “private”. He was basically a d0uche-canoe.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Perhaps it was his son Chad?
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
The thing that has continually amazed me to see on Social Media is how flat out RUDE most of these pastor types are, to anyone at all who disagrees with them. They go right to belittling and name calling…it’s appalling really. This is who they really are?
How on earth did they get into these positions?
Lea wrote:
Brown-nosing, Back-stabbing, and Invoking GAWD?
Sandra wrote:
Artist and musician types have this way of poking holes in the pretentious.
Max wrote:
Isn’t that called “The Measuring Bit” and done with penises instead of stacks of books?
Sandra wrote:
Here’s another possible option…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYKWch_MNY0
@ Elizabeth Lee:
That’s perfect! Now we have a hip-hip theme song and a country version for CJ too.
Deb wrote:
Ha! Nope. Seminary student.
The things that these people say and do and write in the name of our Lord makes me very sad, and, I fear, angry sometimes.
But as I’ve said before, anybody, but anybody, can set themselves up as a ‘Christian’ ‘leader’ and start, um, pontificating. All these guys, Ceej, Dever, Mohler (stacks of books, oh please – he’s probably never even read a fraction of them), are intellectual lightweights, but very clever manipulators of their sycophantic followers. In short, they are politicians.
There is an ‘evangelicalism is dead’ meme going around these days, and it’s not for no reason… it’s been co-opted by these clowns and their ilk.
Deana Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
We’re gonna need a lot more than 9 Marks here…..better order them wholesale!
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Seminary students don’t need to spend time with CJ Mahaney . . . anybody but him.
Wow some songs to go along with CJ’s new book on Humility.
https://youtu.be/Pb-OLvyn5Oo
Sorry 🙂
Can someone explain to me what the appeal of CJ Mahaney is? All I know is that every still photo I see of him, his facial expression looks like I’d imagine the devil, and every soundbyte I hear of him, he sounds like I’d imagine the devil. Or like how some guy in an old Twilight Zone playing the devil would come across. I don’t get the appeal, I just don’t get it.
siteseer wrote:
To be honest, I've never quite been able to work this out myself. He's never been a particularly exceptional preacher (and he is known as a frequent recycler of sermons). His books are fine on their own merits, but they don't contain anything that hasn't been written better by plenty of other pastors that don't have his sordid baggage.
siteseer wrote:
No. Nor any of these characters. I simply do no understand how such people come to power and influence, in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
No, I continue to be baffled. By this, and a lot of things in tne nominally ‘Christian’ world.
Molly245 wrote:
I don’t know that I want to curate this list. I got into a bit of trouble when I curated a list of 101 uses and more for (dead space-alien cult leader’s) skull. The space-alien cult got very huffy about it and has used it against me in the past. The thing is, (dead space-alien cult leader) had been cremated a decade before the list was made, so it was literally a joke. It was not like we were going out grave-robbing. We were just poking fun at the completely humorless space-alien cult.
Maybe this is irrelevant, however, looking at the group photo, if the men are all on level ground, Piper is super short, or vertically challenged. Makes one wonder if he is compensating.
brian wrote:
Isn’t there a song and dance video about this CJ guy with a performance by his fanboys and girls, likewise the Grundem guy?
@ A. Amos Love:
Thanks for this post. Excellent.
Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
Now that’s just bizarre—no sense of humor among the alien being culture? Hard to believe as they are such a big target (as you demonstrated)….
Weirdness all over the place……
siteseer wrote:
Scary isn’t it?! It’s as if a demonic spell has been cast over New Calvinists who idolize some of these characters … a Pied Piper trance.
A. Amos Love wrote:
ah, reminder for you: there was a ‘catholic’ Church before the New Testament was put together …. that Church’s Councils researched and organized the ‘canon’ (list of books) that the Church (in unison) affirmed as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
the word ‘catholic’ has been around since early days when it meant ‘universal’ and was understood the be all of the centers of the Church that had come out from Jerusalem, where the Church originated … the unity of this early ‘universal’ Church was celebrated in how it prayed (shared liturgy) and in the writings that it read aloud to the people (these later were gathered together, and IF they had been read over time and in all of the centers of Christianity, that was considered evidence that these writings were a part of the deposit of faith passed down from the Apostles …. hence these writings were credited with being inspired and were included in the canon of the New Testament when it was formed some seeral hundred years after the Church was founded by Christ
Max wrote:
as in John…
“Carl Trueman does not owe them answers regarding his vindication of C.J. Mahaney.” An article written by Brent Detweiler in reference to declaring Mahaney qualified for ministry back in 2011.
http://abrentdetwiler.squarespace.com/brentdetwilercom/todd-pruitt-defiantly-tells-readers-at-the-wartburg-watch-th.html
By the time the humility book came out, I had personally exited SGM, but family members were still involved. I found the book on my kitchen table — it was to be read & discussed in home groups — and when I saw the title and author, I cracked up laughing, and said ‘you gotta be kidding. CJ is the LEAST humble person I’ve ever seen.’ I tossed it in the trash. Our rebellious home group didn’t bother to follow the commands to read — even though we were told that, due to our special status, SGM was making it available to us at a special discount price. And that was before any of the other fit hit the proverbial shan. All it took was sitting through one sermon to see that the guy had some gifts, but humility wasn’t among them. Too bad. It might have saved the whole ship had he cultivated the trait about which he wrote. Gee, I wonder who will be getting the special discount price now?
Dee Holmes (fka mirele) wrote:
There are not many conversations where it works but for some reason invoking space-alien cults in a discussion of Mahaney seems to fit.
Max wrote:
Notice what is held to a place of honor and prestige….a stack of books. It makes me wonder if they have forgotten what a pastor is supposed to be. I wonder how many of the lowly pew peons they’ve visited in the hospital, prayed with, comforted in time of death and loss, enjoyed a family meal with, etc. Me thinks they live in a different universe.
siteseer wrote:
I think he appealed to survivors of the seventies because he seemed to have beat the establishment at their own game. He was a fresh face when people were looking for something to liven up what they perceived as stale evangelicalism. He was the hippie guy in the next dorm room who’d messed up, but found redemption and forgiveness; a guy many could relate to — or so they thought for the first few years. He was funny in the pulpit, and his antics kept boredom at bay. He cultivated a false humility by his self-deprecating statements, which really served to show how great he was because he’d built a grand and glorious movement in spite of his lack of education, etc. And there’s lots more, but it has been discussed in detail in many other threads throughout the blogs.
I remember being there — somewhere, probably Celebration — when he gave one of those ‘book stack’ speeches. We were all so proud that mainstream big dogs were validating our little movement, and great things were to come. After all, it would only be a matter of time before every denomination would fold and become part of ‘us’ because after 2000 years, SGM had finally discovered what God really meant for the church to be like.
It’s an amazing thing to wake up one day and realize you were part of a church that became cultic. And like so many other cultic groups, I believe they started out in sincerity, but ended up being sincerely wrong. My heart still aches over those who continue to be deceived by all the hype. They’ve seen major sin exposed over and over and over again, from the cover-ups of sexual abuse to the soliciting of prostitution, yet cannot admit that these guys were just plumb nuts.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Dr. Fundy, which New Calvinist seminary did you attend?
Nickname wrote:
Nickname: SGM has many similar characteristics to the cult I once belonged to. We, too, believed that we were special over and above all the other churches because we had True Bible Interpretation. It seems the USA especially has been a breeding ground for cults.
@ roebuck:
Sorry, but I don’t think calling these three “intellectual lightweights” as a (one) way of accounting partly or wholly for their roles in the affair. I will not try to justify my opinions of Mohler and Dever in the intellect department; only that their great learning and gifts have not kept them from any presumed transgressions in the matter. As for CJM, I’ve heard him talk about a good many subjects and don’t think he lacks intelligence or self-esteem. If only he had/would devote his gifts to the growth in stature of others than himself. “He must increase; but I must decrease”. All in all, an astonishing and deeply disturbing phenomenon.
@ A. Amos Love:
Thank you, A. Amos
@ A. Amos Love:
What Christiane said at 12:15 AM today is totally correct. In fact, my church calls itself ‘catholic’ even though we are not, as our pastor says, ‘Romans’. Shared prayers and readings (liturgy), beliefs and teachings which we believe came from the apostles in the earliest days of the church. This shared deposit of faith is not confined to any one denomination but is rather held to be universal (catholic).
I think A. Amos that if you can look at the ‘People of God’ (the church that Jesus is building like He said He would) and see nothing except the problems that have developed in organizational structures, if you can look at that body of the ‘People of God’ dispersed as we are in many denominations and see nothing but corruption, repeat: nothing but, then I think the problem is with you and not with us.
Darlene wrote:
The church I was part of also believed the same: that we were right and everyone else was wrong.
Charles wrote:
I don’t know Mohler from anything but this blog, really, but I do think Dever is quite an intellectual kind of smart. Wrong as can be about a lot of things apparently, but smart about others. There are different kinds of smarts, obviously. It takes cunning intelligence to take over a whole denomination and mold it in your image. What we as Christians should really be looking for, though, is *wisdom* coupled with Christian morals and that seems to be sorely lacking among some of those deemed ‘smart’.
I just don’t think bragging about someone’s stack of books proves anything.
@ Nickname:
Isn’t it crazy that the sgm churches still have the mentality that they are better than every other church? And that they think they are being persecuted because of it?
We sure thought we had more favor with God back then and He liked us better because our doctrine was so fine. What an idiot I was back then.
But when I learned better I did better. It all comes down to being open to where the spirit leads and then reveals line upon line and precept upon precept about Himself.
Here are a few lines from that song ‘me and Jesus’ that was sung by a guy on the voice the other night. It touched by heart and made me so glad I saw the light years ago and left pdi/sgm.
Well, I know a man, once was a sinner
I know a man that once was a drunk
And I know a man, once was a loser
But he went out one day and made an altar out of a stump
I said, me and Jesus, we got our own thing goin’
Well, me and Jesus, we got it all worked out
You know, me and Jesus, we got our own thing goin’
We don’t need anybody to tell us what it’s all about
Well, Jesus brought me through all o’ my troubles
Jesus brought me through all my trials
Well, Jesus brought me through all my heartaches
Well, I know that Jesus ain’t gonna forsake me now
We can’t afford any fancy preachin’
We can’t afford any fancy church
We can’t afford any fancy singin’
But you know Jesus got a lot of poor people out doin’ his work
Lea wrote:
Amen Lea. As I like to say, revelation does not produce one ounce of revelation. It’s not by intellect, but by the Spirit saith the Lord. I don’t have a problem with education (believe it or not, I even have some) but intellect does not impress me when it comes to handling the things of God. Being smart does not equal being wise. If Mahaney, Dever, Mohler, et al. had wisdom, they would not have been ensnared by New Calvinism.
@ okrapod:
I think a lot of people molested as children by priests across the globe would disagree. The institutions have been masters at perpetuating and hiding evil for over a thousand years.
I can’t read history without seeing the church state institutional need for control over lands and people. Martyrs Mirror is about 20 lbs of documentation of victims of both Catholic and Protestant punishments including death for daring to disagree with the “church”.
So much for tradition and what some call the “Body of Christ”. I think it was most likely the saints who dared to stand up to the corruption that actually kept the true Body of Christ alive historically.
Christians don’t harm others for the Name of Christ. It seems strange to think the Holy Spirit was AWOL for over a thousand years with institutional church leaders and even more recently with all things discussed here. I also don’t think the CC is exempt when they have their own evangelists with the propaganda meme.
Amos gets it.
Darlene wrote:
Darlene, unless the good doctor responds otherwise, I believe when he says “I went to THE new calvinist seminary”, he is implying that he attended SBC’s Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. SBTS is known as ground-zero for New Calvinism; Al Mohler is president of SBTS. That once-great seminary of that once-great denomination is now churning our more young, restless and reformed “preachers” than you can shake a stick at.
Darlene wrote:
Oh, this new breed of pastor does not visit sick folk, preach funerals, nor visit in the homes of members. They are just too busy, you know. They delegate all that lesser stuff to hand-picked elders. They appear once or twice a week on stage to deliver indoctrination and disappear. You may see them tweeting their lives away in coffee shops, but you won’t find them darkening the halls of a hospital or praying with folks struggling to make sense of it all.
Nickname wrote:
CJ’s book was never intended to be purchased by folks who knew him! His target market was the growing multitude of gullible New Calvinists. For folks who know him, such as his church members, you can tell them “I’m humble” a million times, but that don’t make it so. They see you, they know who you really are. Humility is a character that is obvious, not something you fabricate to convince and control others.
@ JYJames:
Exactly! The “Pied Piper” has entranced a huge following of the most gullible folks on the planet … they are known as New Calvinists.
@ Lydia:
Amos does not get it. He confuses the corporate church both Roman and protestant with the body of faith (meaning beliefs) that many and certainly not just the RCC believe, like for instance the bible for crying out loud, and he throws the baby out with the bath water, or tries to. Did you read what he wrote? He no way limited himself to talking about the historical RCC. He means the entire ‘church’ in all its aspects and in all its beliefs and practices. And he is mistaken in that.
I lived with a man who did this, and I have seen what it is and what this sort of thinking does to people, and it is destructive and needs refuted. There is no need to burn down the building to get rid of the rats in the basement. Call the exterminators, sure, but quit already with the arson.
A. Amos Love wrote:
And finding new freedom in Christ! I hope I live long enough to see religion’s funeral preached! Jesus came to redeem and work through individuals, not institutions. It’s about relationship, not religion! The institution we call “church” is OK if it is engaged in the Great Commission to reach lost souls for Christ, then equipping ‘them’ to do the work of the ministry. Anything less than that is just religious observance, doing church without God.
okrapod wrote:
There is a true church, only one church, on planet earth. It is called the Body of Christ. Unfortunately, much of it is trapped within the organized, institutional church which focuses on the teachings and traditions of men rather than the commandments of God (Jesus told us not to do that!). No, we can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. The genuine Church, the Bride of Christ, grieves that the counterfeit has gained so much ground in the American church. It will take an act of God to right this ship … when judgment begins, it will begin first at the house of God (at the places which are called that, but are not).
@ Max:
The wheat and the tares. But Jesus did not say destroy the crop because of the tares.
@ okrapod:
I don’t think the Body of Christ morphed into religious/ political dictators who co-opted the term “Universal”, gave the world corrupt Popes with palaces and big hats, expensive icons and pageantry that continues today. Just think of all money spent on such that could feed the poor, instead. Somehow, I don’t think all that is what Christ had in mind for His Body. Mega churches are a close second in spending money on the buildings and lifestyles.
However, If we are talking individuals actually living out the kingdom of God throughout history, their behavior in opposition to the corruption, then I agree they made up the Body of Christ and still do today.
@ okrapod:
But that is assuming we can’t know whether the obvious are tares. That is the point of the parable, isn’t it? CJ might be wheat? Robert Tilton might be wheat? The guy in 1st Corinthians 5 might be wheat so don’t kick him out?
@ Lydia:
That is not what the parable actually says nor what the explanation for leaving the tares is. Jesus never questioned that the people who made the report of the agricultural problem did not know wheat from tares. He said that jerking up the tares would damage the roots of the wheat. I don't see anything about mistaking wheat from tares. Or leaving time for the tares to magically change into wheat. Or for that matter concern for any damage done to the tares. It was not a parable about being naive or indulgent or eternally forgiving, I am thinking, but rather a parable about don't plow it all under just because of the problems; don't sacrifice the wheat in the process of destroying the tares.
“Oh Lord, it’s hard to be humble
When you’re perfect in every way. . .”
The anthem of neo-Cal ‘ministers’ everywhere
Max wrote:
Actually, that is not how it works, Max. CJ’s books and ANY book CJ wanted read was pushed into all of the churches that were part of Sovereign Grace. They were given as gifts (or reduced price) to pastors and homegroup leaders. Everyone else wanted the books because the pastor and homegroup leaders were reading them. What CJ wanted to happen, happened because no one would do anything different! That mentality filtered through the churches. This is how CJ got rid of Larry Tomczak and turned SGM into a pseudo Reformed group of churches. He was a dictator disguised in a clown suit as far as I can tell.
okrapod wrote:
Well, when Jesus said that, He didn’t expect the world to come to church! Therein, lies our problem in 21st century church. Much of which goes to church is not the church; many have taken the name of Christ, but don’t really know Him (He talks about them in Matthew 7).
@ old timer:
Tom T. Hall recorded and released “Me and Jesus” many, many moons ago. I remember hearing it on the radio when I was a child, and it was on an album my dad had.
Max wrote:
With each passing generation, organized religion has lowered the standard and expectation for its members. The “church” in many places is a sub-culture of the world, rather than counter-culture to it. It’s really getting tough for the Body of Christ to find a home in organized religion … there’s too much hype and distraction to genuinely worship and seek God’s face.
Several people on here have kept using the line “why wasn’t it all sold and given to the poor?” I do think it’s important to remember who it was that originally uttered that line….
@ Max:
I think you have confused ‘The Church’ with what you call ‘organized religion’. That is likely how you got into the place where you are now in your thinking.
Bridget wrote:
Thanks Bridget for clarifying CJ’s modus operandi. You paint a picture of classical indoctrination.
JeffT wrote:
In my humble (but accurate) opinion, you describe neo-Cal preachers well. SBC’s church planting program is swarming with such characters, steeped in pride and know-it-all arrogance.
Christiane wrote:
I don’t think anyone is confused, the terms of the church verses ‘the church’ are just interchangeable.
Christiane wrote:
Christiane, I know that “THE” Church is the Body of Christ; the genuine church which is comprised of baptized believers. Unfortunately, “organized religion” is not always THE Church. Much of what is covered on TWW are symptoms of organized religion, and not the actions of the Body of Christ. There is a distinct difference. In all the churches which meet in your community, which one is the the true church? At best, you’ll find it embedded in the organized church and longing to operate as the Body should. Individuals are free in Christ; institutions are not always. Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that ALL of organized religion is off-track … but when the church started organizing and gave up agonizing, things started going South.
@ MidwesternEasterner:
is a story in the Church ….. two priests were walking in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome looking at the priceless artwork. One priest said “no longer can we say “silver and gold have I none”, and the second priest replied “but no longer do we say “..in the name of Jesus, rise up and walk”. 🙂
In truth, these works of great art are now considered ‘world treasures’ and are in the custos of the Church. But recently, Francis, who thankfully upsets many apple carts in the Church, has been inviting the homeless in for meals and has arranged for them to have showers and shelter from the cold. I suppose he thinks ‘maybe we can’t sell the art stuff, but we can share what we do have to offer’
I have my issues with Carl Trueman, in particular, his part on the committee that whitewashed C.J.’s despicable behavior that ended with C.J.’s bailing on Covenant Life church. Trueman has never, to my knowledge, acknowledged and repented of his role in that affair. That said, he’s the only well-known member of the neo-Cal crowd to call out the hypocrisy of celebrity preachers and the damage they do to Christianity. All the others, like Dever, et. al., fail to hold these celebrities to any kind of moral standards. To me, it’s gotten to the point where being ‘Evangelical’ means you are not Christian.
Max wrote:
Thing is, there’s this thing hardwired into the human psyche called “the Troop-Size Limit”. The average human brain can only think of 100-150 people (the size of a hunter-gatherer tribe or infantry company) as individuals; more than that and they blur into a single Collective noun. Below the troop-size limit, they’re individual people; above that, they’re just a number/statistic.
It’s a scaling factor; once you go above the troop-size limit, specialization and hierarchy of some sort is inevitable.
Scaling down, there’s another troop-size limit around 10-12 individuals, the size of a family group or infantry squad. This is the average maximum an individual can actually bond to and “get to know”. (Wiccans have told me that the reason a coven is limited to thirteen — the above limit — is above that number factions form and the coven splits apart in a schism.)
But so many think the solution is some sort of tiny New Testament House Church within the “coven-size limit”, which has its own problems. Too small to make much of an impact, too independent to coordinate with anyone else if large-scale anything is required (remember the Wiccan statement above), and prone to drifting into CULT territory without external reality checks.
Max wrote:
“Wile E Coypte. Super. Genius.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIPr23xyoZg
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
maybe the answer is finding a faith community that is actively ‘awaiting in hope’
ION:
I picked up my new reading glasses today. My existing ones still work fine because, as it happens, my vision hasn’t changed in around 30 years – the trouble with them is that they were styled in 1986 and Lesley has banned me from being seen wearing them by anybody unless I have a paper bag over my head. (I have tried to explain to her, using diagrams and rigorous mathematics, that the paper bag defeats the purpose of wearing reading glasses in any realistic scenario. But she’s not budging.)
They are a lot smaller than my old ones.
OIGKE>
Max wrote:
Do I understand correctly? First we can ignore what Jesus said since he was so out of touch that he can now be dismissed. Ummm, no thanks.
Secondly, people who do not meet some established criteria for already being true believers should be run off from the church premises because Jesus said to go into all the world but if the people of the world come to you then run them off? I must have missed that. Because why? Because holy people can get contaminated by the lesser folk and ….That rather makes God look foolish in that whole incarnation thing-I mean talk about Holy and talk about sinners and all.
Hmmm?
“Amos gets it.”
“Amos does not get it.”
Hmmm? 🙂 🙂 🙂
Well, I do have a Polish Uncle that has taught me everthing I know. 😉
And, I have been known to be Double Minded at times. 😉
And, I reserve the right to be wrong…
Since I’ve changed my mind a few times over the years…
But… Today… For me… ‘The Religious System” is Corrupt.
NOT – The Church of God.
Where Jesus, He is the head of the Body, The Church. Col 1:18.
His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Body, His Church…
His Disciples, His Sheep, His Kings and Priests, His Ambassadors…
His Servants, His Redeemed, His sons…
“Led” by the Spirit…
Well – Today – Here is just one reason…
I’m-a-thinkin **Today’s** Religious System, that masquerades as, and tries to replace…
His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Body, His Church… is Corrupt.
Corrupt – Dictionary
1 – showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
3 – debased or made unreliable by errors or alterations.
“1 – Pastor/Elder/Overseers who do NOT meet the qualifications found in the Bible?
…..(1. Must be Blameless? 2. Holy? 3. Just? 4. Rule well their own house? etc.)”
Hasn’t anyone else noticed **Today’s** Corrupt Religious System “Ignores” and “Twists” the Qualifications for elder/overseer/bishop listed in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-9? So those in control, positions of authority, can maintain their “Titles,” and their Power, Profit, Prestige.
I’m-a-thinkin, most would agree…
If an elder/overseer/bishop does NOT meet ALL the Qualifications?
That elder/overseer/bishop should remove themselves?
And be a good example to the Flock?
Lets look at #4, “Rule well their own house…” first…
Here’s my take now on. #4, A bishop is to “Rule well their own house.” – “Rule Well.”
The ESV has it – “He must manage his own household well” – “Manage Well”
This is a major failure of wanna-be elder/overseer/bishops to “Qualify” based on 1 Tim 3:4-5. Which I’ll attempt to show, #4, Will “dis-qualify” 70% – 80% of todays “Pastor/Leader/Elders.” And ALL who call themselves elder/overseer/bishop, in the RCC, since they do NOT marry, and do NOT have children.
1 Tim 3:4-5 KJV
One that *ruleth well* his own house,
having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house,
how shall he take care of the church of God?)
First – Let’s look at – “ruleth well” – Manage Well – This “Rule” is…
Strongs #4291 proistemi from 4253 and 2476
The KJV – rule 5, maintain 2, be over 1; 8
Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament- Has “Rule” – proistemi as…
to set or place before – to set over – to be over
to be a protector or guardian – to give aid – to care for,
So “Ruleth well” “Manage Well” also speaks of – protecting, guarding, careing for “WELL.”
That’s a bit more then how “Pastors who Abuse” act – Hey, I’m the Boss – Do as I say.
If this wanna-be elder/overseer/bishop is NOT protecting, guarding, careing for his family…
“WELL” – “how shall he take care of the church of God?”
And the internet is wonderful…
Lots of info about – “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” – and their families.
Lots of info about – “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” – NOT “Managing Well.” Oy Vey!!! 🙁
This is info from a couple of ministries helping “Hurting Pastors” and their families.
http://www.pastoralcareinc.com/statistics/
80% of spouses wish they would choose a different profession. (NOT “Careing Well?”)
80% say pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families. (NOT “Protecting Well?”)
http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=
77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage. (NOT “Managing Well?”)
71% have felt burned out or depressed. (NOT “Managing Well?”)
70% do NOT have someone they consider a close friend. (NOT “Managing Well?”)
With 80% of pastor spouses NOT happy with this profession of “Pastor/Leader/Reverends?”
And 80% of pastors saying pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families?
And 77% saying they do NOT have a good marriage? 50% Will end in divorce?
That shows me, as I search for, “Qualified,” “pastor/elder/bishops.”
I already know that 70% – 80% of folks who are in that position – Do NOT Qualify.
Because – They do NOT “Rule Well” or “Manage Well” their own house.
If an elder/overseer/bishop is NOT protecting, guarding, careing for his family, “WELL?”
Then he is “NOT Managing his own household WELL?” Yes?
Then, “how shall he take care of the church of God?” – The Ekklesia, Me? And You?
Well, truth be known, I know how these un-qualified, “Pastor/Elder/Reverends”
“take care of the church of God.” – For me, And for you, it became a great big – Ouch!!!
Much Pain, Tears, and “Spiritual Abuse.” 🙁 Yes?
And now, just the word church, or looking for a church, makes many of us feel sick.
Sounds like Paul might be on to something here with all these tuff “Qualifications.” 😉
Seems to me, this pool of potential “Pastor/Elder/Bishops” – Who Qualify…
Is quite small. 😉
I have posted a new update on the open discussion thread. Thank you all so much. It’s been a tough couple of weeks.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-10/#comment-296142
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
Was Paul necessarily speaking literally? Perhaps household could refer to the local congregation, and children means _spiritual_ children rather than solely biological ones?
I think a case could be made that unmarried people might be more qualified for certain high-stress jobs, since they don’t have to divide their attention both ways. There are only 24 hours in a day and most people have a limit to how much responsibility they can take on; “Puritan work ethic” notwithstanding.
Darlene wrote:
SBTS
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That’s why a “self-similar” structure is such a good idea. Groups of groups. That’s the way a lot of denominations are set up; it’s organization from the bottom up.
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
This is where homegroups or ‘lifegroups’ or what have you come in too. You can’t care about everyone in church, except generally. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing, because you certainly can be basically decent to people as a general rule, as you should be. The more people in church, the more likely you can find a smaller group that you can actually be bonded to in a real way.
But pastors of large churches will not be bonded to everyone, and that should be acknowledged.
@ MidwesternEasterner:
MidwesternEasterner
Well, Maybe – You write…
“Was Paul necessarily speaking literally?
Perhaps household could refer to the local congregation…”
Was wondering…
Have you ever checked out ALL the Qualifications Paul gives in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-9?
—–
I know I did NOT, till after I was ordained, in leadership. Oy Vey!!!
I just believed my pastor/elder/overseers…
When they said I had this wonderful gift of teaching and leading.
Proverbs 29:5
A man that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet.
Proverbs 20:17
Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.
The trap was set… I was someone special…
Praise God I wound up eating lots of gravel… and realized I did NOT qualify.
It took awhile, a few years, But, eventually I ripped up those precious papers.
———–
Hmmm? Who determines if a pastor/elder/overseer meets ALL the Qualifications?
And, have you checked out **your** pastor/elder/bishops? Personally?
As compared to those Qualifications Paul gives in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-9?
Thems being sum tuff “Qualifications.”
———-
If “your” pastor/elder/overseers do NOT meet the 17+, Tuff Qualifications?
Should they remove themselves?
And be a good example to the Flock?
Lea wrote:
isn’t the idea that we are joined together ‘in Christ’ …. that HE bonds us as a ‘body’ ?? Think of the example of the Vine and the branches …. the branches are not connected to each other, but to the Vine and it is through the Vine that the branches are unified because they draw their life from the Vine
I’m not sure I understand all the heavy ‘socializing’ that passes for ‘fellowship’ in some faith communities …. it seems more of an opportunity for people to be in one another’s business which we know is not respectful of dignity and privacy.
I can see people working together on service projects for the Church or for the extended community, and maybe even working together with other Churches on community projects;
but some of what I have read concerning how abuse occurred describes a set-up of social activity that is unbecoming a faith community and more representative of a suburban country club.
@ okrapod:
It’s generally not a good idea to put a priest on sabbatical because he molested a kid. Or, to prop up a CJ Mahaney.
it is the religious leaders who have been the most corrupted historically and now. It is the OT redux. The same trajectory as the ancient corrupt priests Jesus had a lot to say about. In fact, most of His ire was directed toward corrupt religious leaders of His tribe. He had more negative directed toward them than the Pagans. Go figure. He ended that corrupt system yet it was built again–but not by Him.
When religious freedom became the normal, it became our choice to look the other way or not when it comes to corrupted church leaders and their institutions.
Christiane wrote:
There is a difference between ‘socializing’ and actual true friendship. Do you think having a few Christian friends is a bad thing? I don’t.
@ Lydia:
Yup…
“it is **the religious leaders** who have been the most corrupted historically and now.”
“The same trajectory as the ancient corrupt priests Jesus had a lot to say about.”
“In fact, most of His ire was directed toward corrupt religious leaders of His tribe.”
@ Lea:
if you read my comment again, I think you will get the jist of what I’m referring to …… if we are discussing how people of the opposite sex interact socially in a faith community, then we have to take a look at what kinds of activities and forms of communication are going to allow for keeping respectful boundaries …..
@ Lydia:
Corrupt – Dictionary
1 – showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
3 – debased or made unreliable by errors or alterations.
@ Lydia:
We are talking at cross purposes. It seems that neither Amos (as he has clarified) nor I have made this all about the Roman Catholic Church, but you seem to be thinking that this is what is being said. I don’t know how to get beyond this. I said, and still say, that the word ‘catholic’ (little c) is not limited to the word Catholic (big C) meaning the RCC. The maintaining of adherence to the ancient faith as taught by the apostles is done by Catholics and Orthodox and Anglicans (mostly) and an attempt is made at it by ‘bible believing’ protestants though it looks somewhat different from group to group, and probably other groups but I am no authority on Lutherans or Calvinists or any other such groups. What the Roman church did or did not do historically regarding church discipline has nothing to do with whether or not the ‘faith once delivered’ is or is not true. I say that the ancient faith is true and is christianity-that is the bible and the early creeds. That is what I am saying. And I am saying that it is an error to try to tear all that apart due to subsequent sins of this or that religious group. I am defending the ancient faith of christianity, not the RCC or any other group.
Lydia wrote:
It’s eye-opening when you realize that.
Christiane wrote:
Wait, what? Did you mean ‘social’ to be code for opposite sex socializing? Because that is not what I was talking about in my comment or what I read from yours.
Friendship and sexual relationships are different.
A. Amos Love wrote:
Understandable for those who have been on the receiving end of clerical abuse of any kind …. but Wade offers Sunday Church here for the sake of these people who cannot yet bring themselves to go into a church just yet …. too much already.
OTOH, think about satan’s mission …… to disrupt the plan of God for our salvation and the renewal of all Creation ….. to forever close the door of the Church is an act that forgets the age-old promise of Christ that ‘the gates of hell shall not prevail against it’
there will come attacks and people will suffer but in the end, the Church of Our Lord will prevail as we have been promised …. trust the promise and work to help those who have suffered and work to prevent others from being abused …. satan will not have the final word, so don’t give him the satisfaction of abandoning the Church in its militant stage
@ Christiane:
I agree with what you are saying. I am thinking that the idea of the local church (now a mega or mega wannabe) as a social community may have developed impetus as our culture has lost the other communities that people used to have-lifelong residence in the same town, friends one went to school with, long term employment in the same place, neighborhood schools and stores and parks and churches and such.
But, no, socializing was not the aim of the churches I knew as a child, and such was even preached against when the preachers would decry using the church as nothing but a place to make business contacts. This was prior to the dissolution of other ways of being community and that was about all the preachers could object to in the way of socializing. But people’s needs have changed and churches have changed and now we have what we have. Actually, I don’t blame the churches for trying to meet people’s needs, though personally I hang onto an older idea of church for myself.
Lea wrote:
I’m thinking of the context of some of the recent blogs ….. ‘hot tub’ groping by a minister ?
perhaps I’m of another generation than you, and what is now ‘acceptable’ socially has changed;
but there are things I have read that disturb me when I realize people have got themselves too deeply in one another’s business and I know that is not at all wise ….
it’s a question of being sensible, and thoughtful, and of keeping respectful boundaries within a community where ‘social’ takes a lesser role than Christian ‘communion’ and where recreation pales next to Christian renewal, and where the dignity of one another (male AND FEMALE) is maintained at a high level to honor God, the Creator of persons.
Country clubs are wonderful places. But the Church exists to prepare people to go out in the world and to serve. Let the country club be the place where ‘like’ types congregate and exclude the ‘others’; but the Church is a hospital for sinners and a place of renewal and nourishment to strengthen folks to bear Christ out into the world.
Christiane wrote:
I’m sure that’s true, but I’m not sure how you would get any of that from my post. I was not referring to hot tubbing it with the pastor, or boundary crossing.
My point is that there is some value to cultivating friendships with other Christians that you maybe meet at church, and just because some people are doing this wrong (by which I mean, not cultivating true friendship but rather some sort of shallow agreement/mindless attendance at church functions) does not mean we need to have no social interactions.
@ Lea:
this doesn’t make any sense to me …. not sure where you are coming from ??????
?
When I was being invited to Eric Simmons' church, Redeemer Arlington, I remember when the celebrity culture was being passed to me by an Air Force Captain. I knew nothing about SGM and I was starting to learn about it since I was being invited. I read about C.J. Mahaney practicing blackmail and I told the guy who was inviting me that C.J. Mahaney is a fraud. Man I had no idea what would happen next. Andrew got so angry and livid that I said that about CJ that he could not work for a day. Can you imagine? An Air Force officer who graduated from the Air Force Academy that gets that wrapped up about him? He was equally attached to Mark Driscoll. To this day I wonder if that is part of the reason why Jordan Kauflin and Eric Simmons made him a small group leader at Redeemer. He was a true believer who took everything hook, line and sinker.
okrapod wrote:
No. All I’m saying is the church (little c) is not the Church (big C). Organized religion really needs to pause and reflect on what Christ intended for His Church compared to where it now stands after 2,000 years. I just don’t see a pursuit of holiness, nor much Christlikeness, in church leaders and members. Something is greatly amiss and I believe it is us.
@ Lea:
‘cultivating’ friendship ?
in the Church, we teach that we are to care even for our ‘enemies’ and we are to be more concerned for others than for our own needs
is quite possible you and I view the concept of ‘friendship’ very differently indeed, which I would chalk up to generational differences, different backgrounds, etc.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, we see things much the same way. The church has so much to repent of, but I just don’t see much movement in that direction.
Christiane wrote:
I was coming from confusion to how my comments about relationships, particularly friendships, made in church, and how groups within groups might facilitate that, got turned into a discussion of boundaries and hot tubbing? And my being young and obviously generational differences…Does your generation not have friends?
Maybe we should drop this, because I think you’ve been misreading me utterly.
@ Christiane:
Christiane
Hmmm?
“…these people who cannot yet bring themselves to *go into a church*…”
I think when you say church. And I say “Church.”
It just ain’t the same thing. 😉
In the Bible, Did any of **His Disciples** ever *go into a church?* – NOPE…
In the Bible, Did any of **His Disciples** ever…
1 – *Go to* Church?
2 – *Join* a Church?
3 – *Lead* a Church?
4 – *Plant* a Church?
6 – *Tithe* to a Church?
7 – *Look for* a Church?
8 – *Teach* Go to Church?
9 – *Bring their friends* to Church?
10 – *Become a member* of a Church?
11 – *Call themselves Leader* in a Church?
12 – *Build, or buy, a building* called Church?
13 – *Give silver, gold, or money* to a Church?
14 – *Become, Paid, Professional, Pastors,* in Pulpits,
Preaching to People, in Pews, in a Church? 😉
NOPE…
Aren’t these are ALL things that go on in “Today’s Religious System?”
The 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation?
That the IRS calls church?
Should one of His Disciples call an IRS Corporation – the Church of God?
But, does NOT exist in the Bible? For one of **His Disciples?**
What did **His Disciples** know 2000 years ago?
That those who *Go to* Church? *Join* a Church? Miss today?
If being one of **His Disciples** is important? – To you?
Wouldn’t what Jesus taught **His Disciples** be important? – To you?
Check the Gospels, even read just the Red…
Make a list of what Jesus taught **His Disciples.** What they observed Jesus doing.
Because – Jesus teaches **His Disciples** what to teach – when they “Go.”
Mat 28:20 KJV
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
See if that matches what goes on in “The Religious systems” of today?
Wouldn’t **His Disciples** in the Bible, be a good place to start?
Wouldn’t **His Disciples** in the Bible, be a good example to Follow?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
@ Lea:
When I stated “I’m thinking of the context of some of the recent blogs ….. ‘hot tub’ groping by a minister ?” it was in reference to this TWW post:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/10/14/bizarre-happenings-with-former-acts-29-leader-and-mosaic-pastor-dustin-boles/
I should have given the reference more clearly.
Also, sorry for my failure to understand you.
Christiane wrote:
It’s ok. Just wanted to it be clear that I’m talking about normal friendships, nothing sinister or boundary crossing.
Made me laugh how Joshua Harris clarifies that he lived in the Mahaney's basement to explain his "close relationship".
Maybe they doth protest too much? These people are crazy.
If lives weren't being wrecked it would be farcical. Makes me glad this isn't part of my circus.
Max wrote:
Hey, maybe we should sell fluorescent sticks in our online store, and go around shaking them at baaaad preachers. We could choreograph an interpretive Stick Shaking Dance to perform at our planned camp.
@ A. Amos Love:
Which, if any, of the collection of writings which we call the new testament do you consider to be inspired? And if you consider any to be inspired can you explain what you mean by inspiration, please.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Actually, I just found out about a book on humility. It could be printed on the inside of a paper bag, and you could read it comfortably without offending Lesley–function meets symbolism.
The audio below is Carl Trueman chastising the Christian celebrities at the 2012 T4G conference. All the celebrities on the panel applauded Trueman and outwardly agreed with his expressed sentiments, but apparently they were seething in their hearts. Trueman was never invited back and the same 12 celebrities are still the ones speaking at the high dollar conferences. (Inquiring minds would like to know the total renumeration each speaker at the last Together 4 the Gospel Conference received. Why is this information not readily available to the public?)
WOW
@ Edward:
As one great Belfast man once wrote: “True humility is not thinking less of yourself; it is thinking of yourself less.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
There is a type of person who utterly identifies/becomes enmeshed with the leader, whether it’s the CJ type, some charlatan from TBN, or the pope. There’s a figurehead for everyone! The attitude is the same. Christ himself is supplanted by “the church” and his supposed representatives.
Christiane wrote:
What is your point about it? I’m not following you at all.
@ siteseer:
I remember when I was a child during the height of the cold war, and GI Joe and He-Man were my figureheads. Then I grew up. I suppose the second part is optional for some.
More Todd Friel, Ray Comfort, and Ray’s son in law, yes it’s a family business for Ray but of course and simony and nepotism are not sins. They show us how to make sure people want nothing at all to do with the Christian Religion.
https://youtu.be/nW15tilzH3w
brian wrote:
I once compared Friel with a cross between Piper and Bill Nye. But Friel might be worse.
@ Friend
oh, w o w!!
Put me down for an order of the fluorescent sticks ASAP!. . . . for the Fist Bop Conga line (of which I am the called and anointed L E A D E R — oh, wait — I’m not sure about the anointed part. I have to check with the V.P. who elevated me to leadership.) at Camp Backbone.
Also, can you also fill an order for personal mini-parachutes with hand-held air-pulse controllers, as well as pairs shoes and a tract of flooring inset with magnets that repel each other in order to establish magnetic suspension between the floor and the shoes?
Those who must stay off their feet will have the option of “dancing on air” in the Fist Bop Conga Line at Camp via air-pulsed parachute or magnetic dancing shoes.
Ken F wrote:
He is trying for top dog, big cheese, head honcho etc. I actually think they do not really ponder or struggle with the nonsense they say. It is more like a script one just rattles off like magic spells.
A. Amos Love wrote:
I’m not following you. The Bible has more than a handful of instances where “church” is in red letters. The word shows up more than 40 times in the NT. It is used in a variety of ways, including specific churches in specific cities.
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
I remember seeing groupies at rock concerts back in the 70s, same thing.
william Wallace wrote:
When I saw the name William Wallace, I initially thought Mark Driscoll had started posting here. Wouldn’t that be something?
william Wallace wrote:
That is how Christian Celebrities roll.
Ken F wrote:
Our Lord Himself founded the Church. And when He taught people how to pray, He speaks of ‘us’ … the children of the Father, in need of food and guidance, and forgiveness, and of deliverance from evil ….. ‘us’, ‘our’ ….. and so, the the Word of Christ, the Lord’s Prayer’s very pronouns begin the story of ‘who the Church is’ as a community in prayer together in Our Lord.
Dave (Eagle) wrote:
You uttered Blasphemy against his REAL god.
Ever heard of the phrase “Good German”?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
the stories about the Air Force Academy’s extremist ‘christian’ fundamentalists abusing other cadets are something else ….. I believe the Air Force has sorted all that trouble out, but I have always wondered how it got started there in the first place
@ Dave (Eagle):
Now that is funny…not being able to work for a day because of your remark about cj.
That is on the order of the young people who have had to play with play-dough, color and take time off since the election. God help them if circumstances really take a turn.
@ Christiane:
I was wondering the same about Catholic priests.
@ okrapod:
For communication purposes, in this day and time and because of fundamentalist Catholic evangelists since the global scandal trying to rehab the image– using the terminology “universal” as in catholic (small c) and what the big C evangelists believe about being the successor “universal” Church of the Apostles— should be clarified. There seems to be revisionist history there, too.
I do not believe the Body of Christ is found only in institutions. And these days many of them are downright corrupt on the same level or worse than what we read in the OT concerning corrupt religious leaders. Jesus was very focused on them in the NT.
I think it is telling that, in Christ, there is no clergy/laity divide. No defined static offices as was in the OT. That is the human institutional invention that followed the same corrupt path for Christianity whether Popes or Protestant Princes of the church.
@ Max:
Yup –
“And finding new freedom in Christ!”
Seems most of today’s “Nones” and “Dones” …
Have left “Today’s Religious System” to find their saviour…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
And that “Freedom in Christ.”
2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit:
and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Rom 8:14
For as many as are **led**by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
NOT those **led** by Mere Fallible Humans. 😉
———-
It was only after I left “Today’s Abusive Religious System,” early 90’s…
That I realized I had been **In Bondage to the Tradtions of Men.**
The Commandments of Men, The Doctrine of Men, The Philosophys of Men…
That Jesus warned **His Disciples** would Make Void, Nullify, Cancel, The Word of God.
And, Jesus, He is The Word of God. 😉
Mark 7:13
NLT – And so you “cancel” the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
When I was in “The Religious System” I did NOT know I was in “Bondage.”
I did NOT know The Traditions of Men I was being taught, and believed…
Were Making Void the Word of God – Jesus.
But, once you taste of that “Freedom.” 🙂 🙂 🙂
And, taste of that relationship with Jesus…
My Sheep – Hear MY Voice – I know then – and they Follow Me. John 10:27
Jesus always taught **His Disciples** to Follow Him, Jesus…
Jesus NEVER taught **His Disciples** to Follow a Mere Fallible Human.
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
@ Rhonda Montgomery:
🙂 🙂 🙂
@ JYJames:
🙂 🙂 🙂
@ Christiane:
The word, “church” is interesting to research. It is a bit of a black hole.
And, It has little to do with the “Body of Christ” which has nothing to do with buildings, titles, offices, vestments, pulpits, altars, etc.
@ okrapod:
But it IS the wheat being sacrificed. That is a historical problem in Christendom that continues with other methods.
What wheat was damaged when Paul suggested they kick out the perverted guy in 1 Corin?
I am confused in how you are applying this in the context of this blog and dealing with all sorts of corruption and evil done in the Name if Christ.
Ken F wrote:
Spot on.
When I first saw Friel, I thought it was a spoof done by “Saturday Night Live”.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Amazon is carrying a set of them doing yoga poses!
@ Lydia:
Well, I am confused as to why you are not understanding whatever it is that you are not understanding. But since we are both just confusing each other it is time to quit this conversation. There are plenty other things we can discuss at some other time. Peace.
Lydia wrote:
from the Online Etymology Dictionary:
“church (n.) Look up church at Dictionary.com
Old English cirice, circe “church, public place of worship; Christians collectively,” from Proto-Germanic *kirika (source also of Old Saxon kirika, Old Norse kirkja, Old Frisian zerke, Middle Dutch kerke, Dutch kerk, Old High German kirihha, German Kirche), probably [see note in OED] from Greek kyriake (oikia), kyriakon doma “Lord’s (house),” from kyrios “ruler, lord,” from PIE root *keue- “to swell” (“swollen,” hence “strong, powerful”); see cumulus. Phonetic spelling from c. 1200, established by 16c. For vowel evolution, see bury. As an adjective from 1570s.
Greek kyriakon (adj.) “of the Lord” was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike. An example of the direct Greek-to-Germanic progress of many Christian words, via the Goths; it probably was used by West Germanic people in their pre-Christian period.
Also picked up by Slavic, probably via Germanic (Old Church Slavonic criky, Russian cerkov). Finnish kirkko, Estonian kirrik are from Scandinavian. Romance and Celtic languages use variants of Latin ecclesia (such as French église, 11c.).”
@ okrapod:
Got it. I just think Amos is on to something when it comes to the nation/state Pope lead Vatican church or the 501c3 tax exempt structures. I don’t think they were ever the intention and it is healthy to look at the evolution of such and why we are so accepting of it as if our Lord gave us those structures in the NT. It is ok to question and discuss, I hope. This is not the first blog I have been on where some became upset by Amos.
@ Christiane:
Fits perfect with the church being a “place” not the people.
Christiane wrote:
I am sure you have Catholic history that reads different but Vatican City is described as a Theocracy. It is extremely hierarchical. They have the power to do what they want with the treasures.
@ Ken F:
“I’m not following you.”
Sorry – I’ll try to explain.
When Jesus was about to ascend, He gave **His Disciples** some instructions…
In Mat 28:19-20, On what **His Disciples* are to Teach when they “Go.”
Some Bible versions say, “Go… make disciples….”
Other Bible versions say, “Go… teach all nations…”
But, even if, Mat 28:19, KJV, is correct, “Go… teach all nations.”
Or, Mat 28:19, ESV, is correct, “Go… make disciples…”
Mat 28:20, in most versions are similar…
In verse 20, Jesus, teaches, His Disciples, what to teach.
When teaching all nations – Or, making disciples of Jesus.
Mat 28:20 ESV
…teaching them to observe ALL that “I have commanded you”…
Sounds simple, read the four gospels, teach what Jesus taught **His Disciples.**”
———
But, over the years, I’ve noticed…
“Today’s Corrupt Religious System” tends to “Ignore” or “Twist”
What Jesus taught **His Disciples** in the Gospels.
Most pastor/leader/reverends do NOT teach from the Bible…
What Jesus taught **His Disciples** in the Bible.
It does NOT fit with their agenda. 🙁
That’s why I wrote…
“If being one of **His Disciples** is important? – To you?
Wouldn’t what Jesus taught **His Disciples** be important? – To you?
Check the Gospels, even read just the Red…
Make a list of what Jesus taught **His Disciples** What they observed Jesus doing.
Because – Jesus teaches **His Disciples** what to teach – when they “Go.”
Mat 28:20 KJV
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
———
“Check the Gospels, even read just the Red…”
Was about what Jesus taught **His Disciples.** NOT about church.
Then comparing what Jesus taught **His Disciples** in the Gospels, with…
What is taught in “Today’s Religious System.” Or what some call church.
———-
I’ll give you some examples…
@ Ken F:
Here are some things that tend to be “Ignored” by “Today’s Religious System.”
Jesus taught His Disciples…
1 – NOT to be called Rabbi for you have “ONE” teacher, Christ. Mt 23:8 NKJV
…. Know many, in the 501 c 3, who teach Potential Disciples, there is “ONE” teacher, Christ?
…. And **His Disciples** are NOT to be called Rabbi – Teacher?
2 – NOT to be called leader for you have “ONE” leader, Christ, Mt 23:10 NASB
…. Know many, in the 501 c 3, who teach Potential Disciples, there is “ONE” Leader, Christ?
…. And, in the Bible, NOT one of His Disciples called them self Leader.
3 – And they will ALL be taught by God. Jn 6:45 ESV
…. His Disciple John, the apostle, taught, “you need NO man teach you.” 1 Jn 2:26-27 KJV
4 – The Holy Spirit… will teach you ALL things… Jn 14:26 HCSB
…. Paul taught, the Gospel he preached was from God, NOT from man.
5 – ALL truth, will come as the Spirit of truth guides and leads. Jn 16:13 KJV
…. Paul taught, Those who are “led” by the Spirit are the sons of God.
6 – Jesus, as man, does nothing of himself, and is taught of God. Jn 8:28 KJV
…. Seems Jesus, expects **His Disciples** to be able “get it” from God directly. NO middle man.
7 – Jesus is the “ONE” Shepherd, the Good Shepherd. Jn 10:11-16 KJV
…. And, NOT one of His Disciples had the “Title” shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
8 – He who speaks of himself seeks his own glory. (Titles/Position?) Jn 7:18 KJV
…. When someone calls them self pastor. Or leader. Or reverend. Do they seek their own glory?
…. And, NOT one of His Disciples called themself pastor. Or leader. Or reverend.
9 – If I honour myself, my honour is nothing. (Titles/Position?) Jn 8:54 KJV
…. When today’s Pastors put their name and Title, on office doors, secretary desks,
Sunday Morning bulletins, street signs, books, Confrence ads…etc???
Do they honor them self?
10 – Peter, knowing Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God,
…. received *the revelation* from Father *God,* and NOT from man. Mt 16:17 KJV
…. NOT from Jesus, as man. Jesus gave “All” the glory, all the credit to God.
11 – Jesus taught, “I am among you as he that serves.” Lu 22:27 KJV
…. And ALL His Disciples called themselves “Servants.”
12 – Jesus taught, “He that shall humble himself shall be exalted.” Mt 23:12 KJV
…. Humble – A modest or low estimate of ones own importance.
…. Know many with the “Title” pastor? Or leader? Or church leader? Or reverend?
Who are Humble? Who have a modest or low opinion of their own importance?
———-
Woodncha think…
It’s kinda hard, for someone who calls them self shepherd, and leader, and teacher…
To teach potential Disciples of Jesus…
There is “ONE” Shepherd – There is “ONE” Leader – There is “ONE” Teacher
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Christiane wrote:
I’ve wondered the same Christiane. The Armed Services have always had Chaplains and Rabbis for Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen. It was never a big deal back in the day. But I suspect that was before the rise of fundagelical Protestantism, which somehow wormed its way into the command structure of the Air Force Academy?
A. Amos Love wrote:
Thanks. I understood your original reply to Christiane as you saying Jesus never commanded there to be a “thing” called the church. But in NASB I find “ekklesia” (assembly, congregation) translated as “church” 74 times and translated as “churches” 35 times. We see it used several ways. It is used to described the universal body of believers. And it is also used to describe specific congregations in specific cities. Paul wrote about himself “directing” the churches, and he appointed overseers for these specific churches. This implies some sense of leadership/direction. I generally agree with you that the “church” is not supposed to be like a corporation. But I think you go too far when you imply that there was never meant to be any kind of leadership or direction within the body of believers. Even Matthew (a disciple) wrote that Jesus used the word “church” and described it as having a certain type of moral authority (but he obviously did not describe the details of what that means).
Muff Potter wrote:
I think you have to look at the relationship between the USAF Academy and The Navigators. Both are in Colorado Springs. The Navigators had a heavy emphasis on the military during WW2. They moved their HQ to Colorado Springs in 1953, a few years before the USAF Academy was built (see https://www.navigators.org/About-Us/History).
@ Ken F:
Today – When I hear the word “Church” Ekklesia, I like to think of;
The redeemed of the Lord.
The habitation of God.
The Israel of God.
The body of Christ.
God NO longer dwells in Temples made with the hands of man.
You are the Temple of The Holy Spirit. 1 Cor. 6:19-20. The house of God. Heb 3:6.
The Kingdom of God is within you. It’s Christ in you the hope of Glory.
Haven’t we told the unbelieving, unsaved,
that they need to go to a good Bible believing church?
Don’t they picture in their mind; a building with a steeple on it?
Is that in the Bible?
Don’t they picture; a pastor in a pulpit preaching to people in pews?
Is that in the Bible?
How many will know, and understand, that they can become…
“The Ekklesia of God?” The called out ones of God? The Church of God?
How many today will know that “The Church of God”
“The ekklesia, the called out one’s of God” are…
Kings and Preist’s unto God.
The Bride of Christ.
Servants of Christ.
Sons of God.
Disciples of Christ.
Ambassadors of Christ.
Haven’t we deceived the world by telling them
the building is the church? And WE, His sheep “GO to church?”
When all the time WE, His Sheep, are “The Ekklesia of God.”
The habitation of God. The Isreal of God. The Called Out Ones of God.
Haven’t they missed the awesomeness of God,
The beauty of His Church, How we all become one in Him?
Neither bond nor free, neither male nor female,
Neither Emergent nor Traditional.
Neither Complementarinism nor Egalitarianism.
Neither Denominationalism nor Non- denominationalism.
All obeying Jesus, All following Jesus, as “ONE” new man.
Hmmm?
How do WE, His Sheep, understand, and discribe, “The Church of God???”
@ Ken F:
How many today will know that “The Church of God”
“The ekklesia, the called out one’s of God” are…
Kings and Preist’s unto God?
The Bride of Christ?
Servants of Christ?
Sons of God?
Disciples of Christ?
Ambassadors of Christ?
And – If I’m a “king,” where do I go for my orders?
Do I go to another king? Or to the King of Kings, Jesus?
Directly, NO middle man?
If I’m a “priest,” who is my authority? Another priest?
Or Jesus, the “high priest” after the order of Melchisedec?
If I’m “The bride of Christ” do I listen to another bride?
Or should I go directly to Jesus, my husband? NO middle man?
If I’m a “servant” do I take orders from another servant?
Or should I be listening directly to Jesus my master? NO middle man?
If I’m a “Son” Who do I ask for information, for guidance?
Another kid on the block? Or my Father in heaven who loves me?
Directly, NO middle man?
If I’m a “disciple of Christ” a learner, a student, of Christ,
Who do you think wants to teach me? Could it be Jesus? NO middle man?
Ambassador – dictionary
the highest diplomatic representative
that one sovereign power sends to another.
If I’m “an ambassador for Christ?” A messenger?
Do I get that message from another ambassador?
Or can I GO Directly to Jesus? NO middle man?
Hmmm?
How do WE, His Sheep, describe? – His Ekklesia? – His Church? – His Body?
A. Amos Love wrote:
Yes, that is the question that is not getting enough attention. It’s too easy to think of the church as a building or location. It truly is the assembly of believers, not a building. On the other hand, churches do need a place to meet, whether that be a building or a home or a field. But we like our buildings.
So, I just spent a portion of the day making my famous Benedictine cheese for finger sandwiches for a funeral reception at the church this afternoon. The people will gather at the church, there will be a funeral mass officiated by a priest replete with bells and candles and incense, and then there will be internment in the on-site columbarium followed by a reception replete with my famous Bc finger sandwiches and lots of other people’s famous stuff. And wine on special request of the widow. Young daughter is on the care committee whose function includes to furnish food for these church receptions but she had to go to a Daughters quiet day this morning so she asked me to make the sandwich stuff.
Now if you count how many things this entails that are not specifically mandated by scripture, I come up with 19 infractions not counting repeats, five in the first sentence alone. So when I hear people who want to take this away from me/us/the church since it is not mandated in scripture all I can think is ‘try and make me’. We do this for the living, not the dead, and we plan to continue along this line.
And of corse there is Christmas and there is Easter all of which are non-scriptural the way and the date we do it. And the music? Nothing scriptural about pianos or organs or the occasional bagpipe. I could go on and on with this list. We are pure T heathens, hopefully for the glory of God and the encouragement and comfort of the saints.
okrapod wrote:
If you’d ever like to share your recipe with Wartburgers, you can do so at the top of the page under the Interesting tab, the Cooking tab.
Thank you.
@ Velour:
There is no special recipe. And it is not really famous except that people get used to it because I/we take it every time. It is ‘famous’ based on repetition, not quality. But thanks anyhow.
@ Ken F:
Thanks for the link Ken, it’s informative.
@ okrapod:
I don’t think anyone is trying to take anything away from anyone. It all started when Amos was told he was wrong.
And I don’t see where anything you mentioned in your comment couldn’t be done by any group anywhere they please.
People have different views. That is good. We were not left with a manual for how to “do” the Body but we can “be” the Body. Anywhere. Anytime.
Lydia wrote:
Amen! Reminds of a t-shirt I saw once: “I don’t go to church. I am the Church.” And the young lady who wore this was doing just that – going into the world to minister to hurting folks in Jesus’ name.
okrapod wrote:
When I was a young Christian, I did a radical thing. I started reading the Bible! To my amazement, I found that a lot of religious tradition didn’t stack up well with Scripture. For example, Jesus was two years old living in a house when the wise men showed up – they didn’t go to the manger. Likewise, Scripture doesn’t say anything about “3” wise men – just that some wise men were bearing three types of gifts. Or the timing of Christmas – if the shepherds were tending sheep with lambs in the field, that would have been spring not winter. Or, how about Noah taking 2 of every animal – male & female. He actually took 7 pairs of clean animals; only 1 pair of those deemed to be unclean. I could go on an on.
So as a young man, I looked up from Scripture one day and declared “Darn it, if they’ve lied to me about this, what else have they lied to me about?!” From that day forward, I devoted myself to Bible study with the heart of a Berean – to see if what men were preaching was true. Bottom-line for me, religious tradition in the celebration of the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Christ is OK if we find personal time during these periods to worship Him and glorify His name.
Max wrote:
Yes, I think so too. I was trying to make a point that condemning any and every practice that is not specifically described much less mandated by scripture is, in my opinion, not a sustainable position. And I think it is not sustainable because the bible itself never makes that sort of claim for itself, so trying to proof text and then extrapolate often from the absence of evidence is thin ice in my opinion.
And, in my opinion, it is one thing to skate on one’s own thin ice, but to use thin ice as a podium from which to criticize others who see it differently is not what needs to be going on in/between the churches. Therefore, I retain my right to object.
@ Lydia:
@ Ken F:
Absolutely…
“The word, “church” is interesting to research. It is a bit of a black hole.”
Ken F @ Sat Dec 03, 2016 at 01:52 PM…
“It’s too easy to think of the church as a building or location.”
“It truly is the assembly of believers…”
I’m familiar with the dispute with “church,” and what it means. Oy Vey!!! 🙁
Struggled with it. Printed out every verse, over 100, with the Greek Ekklesia.
Read those verses over and over again…
Read what others had to say, and why…
1 – Some, like Cooper P. Abrams, III, seem to say “ekklesia” – only means
….. “assembly” or “congregation.”
….. http://bible-truth.org/Ekklesia.html
2 – Some, like “Ekklesia Ministries” seem to say “ekklesia” – only means
….. “the called out ones.”
….. http://www.ekklesia.ws/ekk_defined.htm
3 – Some, like Wayne Jacobsen, say “ekklesia” – can be both.
…. The idea of “called out” and an “assembled” body,
are NOT mutually exclusive expressions. The single term can embrace both ideas.
…. http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1500-ekklesia-revisited
4 – Some, like Strongs Concordance and Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon.
…. and others, seem to say church is – both – “the called out ones” and “assembly.”
…. Seems before there can be an assembly, the folks, believers, the Redeemed,
…. have to be “called out” of where they are – then enter into that assembly.
Strongs – #1577. ekklesia ek-klay-see’-ah; a compound of 1537 and 2564;
“a calling out,” a popular meeting, a religious congregation, assembly, church.
From two Greek words. Ek = Out of. And Kaleo = To call
Thayers – ekklesia –
1 – a gathering of citizens “called out from their homes”-
….. into some public place – an assembly.
I have come to accept #3 and #4…
Both “the called out ones” and “assembly” are likely options. 😉
If Jesus is the head of the body, the ekklesia, the church… Col 1:18
And “ekklesia” only means “Assembly?” Gathering? As many say?
Does that mean Jesus is **only** “the head of the body” the church? when assembled?
Does the “body of Christ” NO longer exist if we’re NOT assembled? Traveling?
Are we NO longer the “body of Christ,” The Ekklesia, when we’re home alone?
What if I’m in prison, solitary confinement; Am I NO longer “the Ekklesia of God?”
Right now I’m in Barnes & Nobles, blogging, all by myself, NOT assembled.
Is Jesus still my head? Am I a part of “ the body of Christ?” His Ekklesia?
When do we become “the assembly” that becomes “the church?”
When two or three? Are Gathered? More? How many?
For myself, I found quite a few verses that can be – Both.
Some that only refer to – “called out ones.”
Some that only refer to – “assembly.”
Lydia – Ken F
For myself, I like using “ekklesia” and “called out ones” when talking “Church.”
It reminds me and others “the ekklesia of God” is always people. NOT institution.
I see “ekklesia” referring to being “by myself,” with two or three” an “assembly.”
Church = assembly? OR Church = the Body of Christ, the called out ones?
1 – I will build my church – Mt 16:18 – build also means “to edify.”
(Assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
Could be either – Yes? I will build my assembly? I will build, edify, my called out ones?
2 – the Lord added to the church – Acts 2:47 – Could be both. Yes?
(Assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
If He adds someone in prison, solitary confinement;
Is this person, all alone, now, part of Christ, His body, part of “The Church?”
Or, are they “only” ekklesia when out of prison and assembled?
3 – great fear came upon ALL the church – Acts 5:11.
(Assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
Does fear only come when the ekklesia is an assembly?
4 – a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem – Acts 8:1.
(Assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
Was there persecution just against the assembled believers?
If there is NO assembly of believers- then –
is there NO persecution against believers?
5 – Saul, he made havoc of the church, entering into every house – Acts 8:3.
(Assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
Why did Saul enter into every house? Why not just where they were assembled?
Were there assemblies in every house? In Jerusalem?
Or, “the called out ones” in every house?
6 – they assembled themselves with the church – Acts 11:26.
(Assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
Did they assemble themselves with the assembly?
Or, did they assemble themselves with “the called out ones?”
7 – Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church – Acts 12:1.
(Assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
Only vexing certain of the assemblies? NOT all? Or certain of “the called out ones?”
8 – and had gathered the church together – Acts 14:27.
(Assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
Gathered the assembly? Or, gathered “the called out ones?”
9 – And being brought on their way by the church – Acts 15:3.
(Assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
Did the whole assembly bring Paul to Jerusalem?
Or, only a few of “the called out ones?”
10 – they were received of the church – Acts 15:4.
(Assembly?) OR ( the Body of Christ, the called out ones?)
Well you get the drift… Makes an interesting study… Print out ALL the verses…
The one thing, in the Bible, “church” is NOT…
Is a building, a business, an IRS corporation…
an institution, an organization, a denomination…
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
JYJames wrote:
Sadly, yes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im_cwlWqOd4
May cause intense disgust and possible nausea. Please listen with caution.
@ A. Amos Love:
Besides distinct differences in form of the early church vs. today’s church, my primary concern rests in the diverse messages of the two. There can be no doubt that the 1st century church was much more evangelistic than the organized church of the 21st century (with some exceptions). Additionally, the early church did not tolerate open and unrepentant sinning; nor authoritarian over-lord rule of God’s people as some churches do today … which provides material for watchblogs like TWW. Today’s emphasis on teaching the precepts of men above preaching the Gospel would have been unimaginable to early believers.
Serving Kids In Japan wrote:
I regret that I did not believe you… Too late now… I watched it… I hope I live long enough to forget it…
A. Amos Love wrote:
This is true. On the other hand, the assembly needs a place to assemble. The Bible does not seem to dictate how or where to assemble, so that means we are free to choose. I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with creating infrastructure to facilitate assembling. But when then infrastructure becomes more like an ends than a means, it’s time to re-evaluate.
Ken F wrote:
The bible also does not talk about sunday school, covered dish dinners, vacation bible school, summer missions projects, giving money to any centralized entity like the co-operative program, or hospitals, or schools, or men’s interest groups, or women’s interest groups, or day camps, or seminars, or seminars or conferences, or religious books other than the epistles, or community work projects sponsored by the ‘gathering’, or orphans homes, or social services, or overnight care for the homeless, or whether one in the distant future should study biblical Greek and Hebrew, or seminaries, or translation committees. It does not specify that the gatherers have to gather together at any specified times other than on the first day of the week, nor does it say how often and exactly in what manner the gatherers should partake of the bread and the wine. It does not take a specific stand on the mode or age of baptism and does not say if an episcopos is another name for elder or is a separate function. The bible does not specify whether or not men and women can sit together in church, nor does the NT discuss instrumental music during worship if any. There is no description as to what exactly would constitute a profession of faith, and there is no specific sinners prayer in the text. I see no mention of any transportation other than animals and ships and on foot, so forget the church bus.
But it does talk about healing, and tongues, and prophets/prophesying, and holy kisses, and head coverings and to whom people are to ‘submit’ and And it does mention how the early church practiced a form of economic socialism and what the church’s responsibilities are for widows who meet certain requirements. The NT does say that whoever will not work may not eat, and says that families are responsible for the welfare of their own so as not to burden the church. It does say that we are to expect and endure persecution even to the death, and it says go-teach-preach-baptize everywhere.
So if we meticulously do everything the bible says to do, and if we refrain from doing anything which the bible does not exactly specify, then I suppose we will win the world to Christ in our generation. Except that the does-not-say and the does-say get in the way of each other in places. How do we baptize and at what age, and what about translations as we evangelize other people groups, and how far can anybody actually walk on two feet to get this done; these would be road bumps and something would have to give.
I first mentioned this, in a very simple form, to my father when I was in early elementary school, about the fourth grade if I recall when we first studied about primitive cultures before recorded civilization. It was not pretty. I would have been what, 10 at the time. In a couple of months I well be 83. 70+ years is a really long time to be bugged to death about ‘the bible says’ as used and abused in fundamentalist protestantism.
Ken F wrote:
More than a few non-profits lose sight of their mission to replaced it with their own perpetuation.
Bill M wrote:
Yep. Right now, the primary concern of the SBC is the future of the SBC!
Bill M wrote:
The 501(c)(3) Johnson Amendment to the tax code has darn near shut down the American pulpit from preaching against certain things. Churches and preachers bow to the IRS to protect their tax exemption … another problem with the organized church in America.
okrapod wrote:
This is a great list to illustrate your point. We could make it ten times longer without having to think hard. I see so many who want to make it sound like Christian theology is black and white with very little wiggle room. The older I get more repulsive I find that way of thinking. My investigation into Calvinism got me in contact with Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic theology. That has been a very enlightening experience. Christian tradition is so much richer than the YRRs would have us to believe.
@ A. Amos Love:
it occurs when I read comments like yours that the concept of ‘the mystical Body of Christ’ is not something you either know about or could relate to in your present understanding of ‘church’
take a look at the term ‘the mystical Body of Christ’ in the sense in which it is used in Catholic circles …. accept it or reject it, but at least you will have some knowledge of it …. and maybe why we struggle when we communicate with one another to comprehend each others’ meanings of ‘church’, ‘ekklesia’, etc, etc.
Ken F wrote:
It’s just that as soon as there are bills and salaries to pay, there is a conflict of interest. We are depending on the people to keep ideals/values in primary importance. The ideals/values can subtly get redefined. What is the answer?
siteseer wrote:
Maybe we need better questions first.
Ken F wrote:
Exactly.
NeoCalvinists think they own the answers to everything, the Canon, and have no respect it seems for the Christians who carried traditions to us that we have today. Instead of being appreciative, they seem only to find criticism. At least the NeoCalvinists that I was around at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, my ex-church.
@ Ken F:
yes
Velour wrote:
It’s the same in my corner of America, far from Silicone Valley. The YRR have been indoctrinated by leaders of the New Calvinist movement to believe that the rest of us have lost the gospel! Therefore, they don’t respect and appreciate that which they believe has been off-track for centuries. They feel they have come into the world for such a time as this to restore truth to the church. Such arrogance!
Max wrote:
It’s pretty amazing – Christianity got it wrong for 1500 years. Who knew?
Ken F wrote:
How do you get people to choose truth before protecting the institution when their salaries and all of their investments into the institution are at stake and it would appear to them that putting truth first might endanger those?
Ken F wrote:
There was no truth until Calvin.
@ siteseer:
I’m wondering if professional clergy is the problem. St Paul had a real job. Maybe that should be the model.
Lydia wrote:
It seems like, to me, the people are the church-
1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Ken F wrote:
I recall an episode of the ’90s sitcom “Wings”, in which Brian shows off his hypnotism skills as a party trick. He apparently succeeds in mesmerizing the portly Roy into singing and dancing to “Buttons and Bows”. Once he’s finished, someone asks whether Roy will remember doing that, and Brian says, “Not unless I let him.”
To which Antonio says weakly, “Can you make me forget?”
I know the feeling…
Ken F wrote:
That seems to have been the problem historically when spiritual functions in the Body morphed into hierarchical/powerful offices in the church with its buildings and lands.
The biggest proof, in my mind, that C.J., and Mark Driscoll for that matter, are frauds is that the “system” they created (I will not compliment it by calling it a church) collapsed when they were “removed” (you can debate all day why they left). If they had really created something that was above human construction, it would still be around after they were not the “head” of it…
We are called to follow Christ, who is the ultimate example of dying for your cause! And look what happened after Christ died!
Ken F wrote:
Scripture refers to many early church pastors as what we would call “bi-vocational.” They worked ‘regular’ jobs in addition to devoting themselves to the study God’s word and prayer. They didn’t depend on a church salary; they were free to teach and preach as they were led by the Spirit without any constraints of organized religion. They were “professional clergy” only in the sense that they were called by God into specific offices (pastors, teachers, prophets, apostles, evangelists). The only ‘profession’ they had was the declaration of the Gospel and Kingdom of God. They equipped the saints to do the work of the ministry, as they worked together hand-in-hand with the Body of Christ to fulfill the Great Commission. Whose job is the ministry? Every believer has a part! That’s the New Testament model for doing church.
Jeffrey J . Chalmers wrote:
“If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail.” (Acts 5:38)
@ Ken F:
“The Bible does not seem to dictate “how” or where to assemble…”
How about…
When you come together **Every One** can, and is expected to…
“Participate?”
1 Corinthians 14:26
How is it then, brethren? **when ye come together,**
**Every One of You**
hath a psalm, hath a *doctrine, (a *teaching.)
hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
This “How To” does NOT get much attention in today’s 501 c 3, IRS Corporations. Yes?
@ Ken F
:
“I’m wondering if professional clergy is the problem.”
I can NOT seem to find in the scriptures…
One of **His Disciples** becoming a “professional clergy”…
A Paid, Professional, Pastor, in a Pulpit, Preaching, to People. in Pews.
Weak after Weak…
———-
In my experience with “Today’s Corrupt Religious Systems” it is evident that…
Paid – Professional – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews…
Prevent – Public – Participation – and – Promote – Passive – Pew – Potatoes….
Procuring – Power – Profit – Prestige – for the Prevailing – Parsing – Pastor…
Presiding over – Percived Peons – Pressured to – Pray – Pay – Stay – and – Obey… 😉
@ Ken F:
“The Bible does not seem to dictate “how” or where to assemble…”
How about…
More than one bringing forth the message for the day, from God?
When one prophet speaks… And ALL may prophesy…
And another prophet has something revealed to them…
The first one holds their peace, so the second can speak?
1 Cor 14:29-31
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by,
let the first hold his peace.
For ye may ALL prophesy one by one,
that ALL may learn, and ALL may be comforted.
This “How To” does NOT get much attention in today’s 501 c 3, IRS Corporations. Yes?
The Ana-Baptists called this “The Sitters Right.”
This did NOT go over so well with the Reformers and Rome.
The ana-baptists must have been doing something right – Because…
Both Rome, and the Reformers, tortured and killed them…
——–
From the book – “The Secret Strength.”
…But what the reformers could not tolerate — what made them fearful, and eventually furious, with the Anabaptists — was the Anabaptists’ high regard for inner conviction and low regard for **the voice of the church.** “This heretical persistence in following an inner word,” thundered Martin Luther, “brings to nothing the written Word of God!”
.
In a sense he was right.
.
The Anabaptists did not follow the Scriptures (and their “correct interpretation”) like Martin Luther wanted them to be followed. They followed a man. And in following him (instead of Luther’s church, or Luther’s Bible) they got their hands onto the thread that pulls the fabric of civilization apart. This, the reformers correctly discerned, and it made them desperate enough to pass the death penalty upon them.
.
Huldrych Zwingli began and Martin Luther kept on violently denouncing the aufrührerischer Geist (stirring-up spirit) of the Anabaptist movement, which they found, above all, in their “silly teaching” of the Sitzrecht (the “sitter’s right”).
.
The Anabaptists took literally the words of Paul in 1 Cor. 14:30-31: “And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, **the first speaker should stop.** 😉 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.” They called this the “sitter’s right” and calmly implied that they, when moved by inner conviction, had **as great a right to speak and to act as any pastor, any priest, any reformer or bishop or pope.** This audacity, this “Sitzrecht from the pit of hell,” Martin Luther and his friends believed, could be dealt with only by fire, water, and the sword.
Don’t think I like much – The Reformers or Rome…
I’m-a-thinkin…
Any group who “tourtures and kills” those who disagree…
Should be given a wide berth and stayed away from… I’m “Done.”
But – Hey – Thats Just Me… 😉
For anyone interested…
“The Secret of the Strength”
What Would the Anabaptists Tell This Generation?
Is availble FREE in PDF download on the internet. 😉
http://www.gw.org/Sos/Sos.pdf
If this does NOT work – Do a little googling… 😉
@ A. Amos Love:
Whenever a genuine move of God is released on the earth, there is always a counterfeit which challenges it. The Anabaptists were the true reformers; the Calvinists, with the strong arm of the magistrate, attempted to discredit and disrupt the free church (which is still happening today via the New Calvinist movement).
@ Max:
Yes – “The Anabaptists were the true reformers.”
@ Max:
Yeah – the Anabaptists started out well – IMHO…
This book records the Good, the Bad, and The Ugly.
Seems Menno, the ex-catholic priest did NOT finish well. Oy Vey!!!
———
From the book – “Secret of the Strength”
Disobey the Church?
.
To oppose the world to follow Christ was one thing. But to oppose the church was another — and the Anabaptists, after a thousand years of authoritarian teaching, had to overcome a deeply rooted feeling of guilt before they could do so.
.
The first Anabaptists were not leaving **the old corrupt church** of the Dark Ages. They were leaving the new “Biblical” and “evangelical” church of Huldrych Zwingli in Switzerland. But in following Christ, they got to where it made no difference. They could walk only with a church who followed Christ, and wherever it did not, they felt “constrained in their hearts” to disobey it. For Menno Simons, the courage to do so became the turning point of his life.
.
For two years Menno Simons had lived with a problem. He was a Catholic priest, but he doubted whether the wafer and the wine in his hands really turned into Jesus’ body and blood. “Such doubts,” he told himself, “must come from the devil.” But he could not get rid of them. They did not go away, until in desperation he turned to the New Testament.
.
Menno Simons did not question the authority of the church. He hoped the New Testament would confirm it and help him to be a better Catholic. But to his dismay it did the opposite. The more he read, the hungrier he got for the truth, and the more he realized how far from Christ his church’s teaching was. Eventually his inner conflict reached a climax.
He had to decide which authority was to rule his life:
the church or the Word of Christ.
————
Years later – When some began to “drift” – disagree –
With Menno Simons, and other elders…
Things got ugly.
And Menno, the ex-catholic priest, resorted to the ugliness he escaped from with Rome.
To try to control and manipulate his desired outcomes…
Ex-communication and shunning
From the book – “Secret of the Strength”
Disagreement in the Lord’s Commune
Little by little the believers of Mönchen-Gladbach became aware of strange things happening among the Anabaptists of the Netherlands. Reports came of **sudden excommunications** and **harsh shunnings** — husbands refusing to eat or sleep with their wives, and **many put out of fellowship for trivial reasons.** The Dutch Anabaptists, it seemed, no longer used excommunication to deal with clearly evident sins but as a quick fix for any disagreement among the brothers.
.
Anyone who questioned what **the church** (that is, the most widely respected elders like Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, and Leenaerdt Bouwens) decided was in danger of getting “delivered unto Satan.” Then, in 1555, things came to a head in the Dutch town of Franeker.
———
Hmmm? Sound familiar?
“Anyone who questioned what **the church**??? Ouch!!! 🙁
Excommunicated? Shunned?
Delivered unto Satan???
What **the church** decided??? – 🙁
What the most widely respected elders decided??? – 🙁
What Elders like Menno Simons, Dirk Philips, and Leenaerdt Bouwens decided??? 🙁
Power Corrupts
@ A. Amos Love:
Yes, the inability to participate in modern church services makes “church” boring and predictable. It feels more like watching a performance. We visited an Episcopal church a few weeks ago. I spent so much effort in juggling the handout, the common book of prayer, and the hymnal that I had a hard time keeping getting into the flow.
Surprised to read Bo Lotinksy’s thoughts.
A. Amos Love wrote:
And the only thing the Pope, Luther, and Calvin could agree on was a Final Solution to the Anabaptist Problem.
Ken F wrote:
“I wish I had never heard…
I wish I had never seen…
Ia, Ia… Cthulhu… Fthagn…”