Is There a Conspiracy by Complementarians to Control the Evangelical Theological Society?

"We are not the evangelical complementarian society…"

Purportedly Said by Daniel Wallace, 2016 ETS President

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=9920&picture=open-bibleOpen Bible

Given the controversy about "The Trinity" that ensued prior to the recent Evangelical Theological Society meeting, we are perplexed by the apparent lack of coverage in the wake of last week's gathering.  When the presentations and panel discussions become available in early December, we plan to report on some of them.  

In the meantime, we are grateful that two attendees chimed in on our blog with their observations.  See comments below link and link.

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/11/18/evangelical-theological-society-addresses-the-trinity/#comment-294769

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/11/18/evangelical-theological-society-addresses-the-trinity/#comment-294767

When Dee and her family were living in Dallas, she and her husband became friends with Dan Wallace and his wife.  Is God sovereign or what?  I plan to transcribe some of what ETS President Daniel Wallace said when his presentation becomes available online.  Sounds like he took a very public stand against complementarians that was LONG OVERDUE

Scot McKnight has also taken the complementarians in the ETS to task in in his post Alarms in ETS about a Complementarian Conspiracy, in which he describes how complementarians sought to carry out their agenda of marginializing egalitarians at the 2015 ETS Meeting.  His post begins as follows:

Last year at The Evangelical Theological Society annual meeting (ETS) some wily moves were made by some wily folks who planned in advance to pass some resolutions that would set a precedent to enhance complementarianism, slow down egalitarianism, and press onto the platform a way of doing business that had more than a few concerned. Many spoke with me about it and were more than saddened by the process and seeming power at work.

When the history of late 20th and early 21st Century evangelicalism is finally written, one of the most embarrassing stories will be the way male leaders behaved and sought to control all voices — mostly after meeting behind closed doors, in seeking to control who gets published and where, and who was chosen to speak so that a who-under-control would say what-was-controlled. Often those who are in control are taking the least amount of heat for this embarrassing way of powermongering.

McKnight then explained how Stan Gundry sent a warning to the Evangelical Theological Society that the resolutions put forth in 2015 "contradict what the ETS is about and what its Doctrinal Basis is designed to do and not to do. He has suggested, too, that there is a complementarian conspiracy at work."

That may sound like a serious charge, but given how we have seen the Calvinista crowd operate over the years, can there be any doubt that they want total control of the ETS?  In our TWW post entitled History of Complementarianism – Part 1, there is no doubt in our minds that Wayne Grudem's intent was to gain complete control of the ETS, and over the past 20 years he and his cohorts have systematically worked to have certain individuals in their camp nominated to key leadership positions (not unlike how the Neo-Cals have overtaken the Southern Baptist Convention by securing key leadership positions). 

Stanley N. Gundry, who served as ETS president in 1978 submitted an open letter to the members of the Evangelical Theological Society, which was published in the 2016 ETS Newsletter. (see screen shots below)

************************************

http://www.etsjets.org/files/Newsletter/2016_Edition/2016_Newsletter_Presidents_Corner_Gundry.pdf

http://www.etsjets.org/files/Newsletter/2016_Edition/2016_Newsletter_Presidents_Corner_Gundry.pdf

http://www.etsjets.org/files/Newsletter/2016_Edition/2016_Newsletter_Presidents_Corner_Gundry.pdfhttp://www.etsjets.org/files/Newsletter/2016_Edition/2016_Newsletter_Presidents_Corner_Gundry.pdf

Gundrey went on to explain what bothers him about these resolutions, and the remainder of his open letter is well worth the read (link).  He then speculated whether there is a plan in the works to…http://www.etsjets.org/files/Newsletter/2016_Edition/2016_Newsletter_Presidents_Corner_Gundry.pdf

**************************************

Roger Olson also featured Stan Gundry's Open Letter to the ETS in a post on his website.

Finally, Michelle Van Loon recently wrote a post entitled The Layperson and ETS.  She made some excellent points, and we will let her have the final word…  (see screen shots below)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/10/05/the-layperson-and-ets/#disqus_threadhttp://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/10/05/the-layperson-and-ets/#disqus_threadWe will have much more on the Evangelical Theological Society in future posts.  After all, when the complementarians are attempting to influence a large number of Bible scholars, that's no small matter…

Comments

Is There a Conspiracy by Complementarians to Control the Evangelical Theological Society? — 109 Comments

  1. thank you for gathering this, DEB

    “I’m all for theological precision, but if that precision is dictated by backroom power plays within ETS, we are all the weaker for it. That skeezy stuff is the way of bad local church politics, the very thing that has left too many of us in the pews carrying all kinds of wounds and scars.” (Michelle Van Loon)

    Good to have a strong Christian woman’s voice ABLE to tell it like it is to those complementarian schemers who are in the ETS. And I really liked her choice of the word ‘skeezy’ to describe their shenanigans.

  2. Fourth? Never been this close to first before. Will read the article in the morning; my eyes are crossing. Thanks, Deebs, for all you do.

  3. Shoot. I couldn’t resist reading. This jumped out at me:

    Gundrey went on to explain what bothers him about these resolutions, and the remainder of his open letter is well worth the read (link). He then speculated whether there is a plan in the works to…

    Sounds as if the ETS is in great danger of becoming irrelevant, and thus, ignored (at best). Except for those who are invested in majoring in the minors, or perhaps even pursuing aberrant theology.

  4. We must purify the Society, brethren. This is the same Puritanical outlook that Mark Dever and 9Marks employs at the level of the local church. It is my way or the highway. This is the antithesis of Godly servant leaders.

  5. This blog is always informative. I’m not Baptist, currently no fixed religion, but I learn something new.
    Thanks for the hard work you both do. Once again you prove that rationality, critical thinking and tolerance are not mutually exclusive regarding Christianity.

  6. Jack wrote:

    Thanks for the hard work you both do

    Amen! In keeping with the Thanksgiving season, I want to thank Deb and Dee for the hard work they do as well!

    Thank you!

  7. ” … given how we have seen the Calvinista crowd operate over the years, can there be any doubt that they want total control of the ETS?”

    No doubt on my end! They want to control everything they touch with their ‘right’ theology. That has been their aggressive goal within SBC and they have largely accomplished that mission through stealth and deception. We have to remember that ETS is comprised of religious ‘intellectuals’ – theologians are at the top of the heap in Bible-intelligence, you know; except, God might have something to say about just how smart some of them are. The deafening silence on just what was discussed on ESS at ETS is sort of like shunning the rest of us, who are too stupid to understand The Trinity.

    This has all the fingerprints of New Calvinist manipulation and intimidation of theological colleagues before or during the conference. Think about getting a persuasive call from Wayne Grudem, whose book on systematic theology is on the shelf right next to the Bible in libraries of ETS members – he would scare the living daylights out of lesser theologians! The new reformers operating within SBC have certainly shut the mouth of dissent by maneuvering players into place and controlling the conversation over the past ten years. Why would that not be happening in ETS? If an organization such as ETS can’t control rebel theologians, no one can. But God …

  8. “Is there a conspiracy by complementarians to control the evangelical theological society?”

    Er. Do bears doodoo in the woods?

    The very essence of the complementarian doctrine is control.
    It’s all about control and seeks to control.
    Though filled with flowery words and lots of sugar to help the medicine go down, comp doctrine is all about take over and control which leads to oppression. Comp worshipers did it to the Southern Baptists. They will do it to everything they touch.

    Comp doctrine is the antithesis of:

    “…the Truth shall make you free.” John 8:32

    “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.” Romans 8:2

    “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.” Galatians 5:1

    And my favorite:
    “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:8
    http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/04/people-of-spirit-wind.html

    I thank God that there are strong, well-grounded individuals who will stand up in the face of this false gospel, this gender gospel. And thank you to the Deebs and their commenters for keeping us abreast of these happenings.

    There will be not silent takeover of the ETS like there was of the SBC. We are onto them now.

  9. Theologians have an awesome responsibility before God and the Body of Christ to get it right! They will be held to a higher level of accountability.

    As Al Mohler said in his 1993 convocation address at SBTS:

    “Truth is always confronted with error … the doctrinal depository of the Church is ever in danger of compromise … those who teach the ministry bear the greatest burden of accountability to the churches and to the denomination … it is with a single man that error usually commences.”

    (I wonder if the good doctor has ever personalized that warning?)

    The Word also has something to say to these folks:

    “Not many [of you] should become teachers [serving in an official teaching capacity], my brothers and sisters, for you know that we [who are teachers] will be judged by a higher standard [because we have assumed greater accountability and more condemnation if we teach incorrectly].” (James 3:1 AMP)

    If I was a theologian attempting to undo centuries of teaching on the Trinity (the Trinity!!), I would be one of the most arrogant purveyors of Scripture who ever lived. If I was using that aberration to subordinate women believers by eisegesis to support my theology, I should be shaking in my boots right now!

  10. Mara wrote:

    I thank God that there are strong, well-grounded individuals who will stand up in the face of this false gospel, this gender gospel. And thank you to the Deebs and their commenters for keeping us abreast of these happenings.

    I’m very thankful for the Deebs. God bless you both.

  11. “Given the controversy about “The Trinity” that ensued prior to the recent Evangelical Theological Society meeting, we are perplexed by the apparent lack of coverage in the wake of last week’s gathering. When the presentations and panel discussions become available in early December, we plan to report on some of them.”

    It would be a good idea to keep an eye out for any attempts to suppress the audio files from the ETS presentations, or online discussion in general. If December 1st comes and goes with nothing available, perhaps somebody ought to put a bug in the ear of Kevin Giles or Mark Jones.

  12. Mara wrote:

    There will be not silent takeover of the ETS like there was of the SBC. We are onto them now.

    I will be covering this matter like a hawk in the coming weeks, months, and even years.

    Expect regular updates here at TWW on the ETS and the attempted takeover by these control freaks.

  13. Ted wrote:

    Mara wrote:

    I thank God that there are strong, well-grounded individuals who will stand up in the face of this false gospel, this gender gospel. And thank you to the Deebs and their commenters for keeping us abreast of these happenings.

    I’m very thankful for the Deebs. God bless you both.

    Hi TED,
    when you think that DEE and DEB offer an on-line voice for victims to come and tell their stories and to stand witness to the persecution that they have endured from these neo-Cal/patriarchists;
    and THEN you also realize that come Sunday, they offer the service here from Wade Burleson for the sake of those victims for whom going back to any Church right now is too painful;
    then there is much to be thankful for in the services of these two ladies. I’d like to put in also a good word for Velour who frequently lists for us those who come here in need of prayer for troubles and for illnesses and other special needs. I am very grateful for the work of these ladies who are on the side of the angels, and I am very happy that Wade comes with the Good News to those victims who need it so very much for their healing. For these good people, thanks be to God.

  14. @ Mara:
    “The very essence of the complementarian doctrine is control. It’s all about control and seeks to control.”

    This is the thing that continues to amaze me, how very much these guys want to control anything and everything – women, pew peons, churches, educational institutions, narratives, the Bible itself, etc. That seems very, very odd to me. Most people want to support and maybe even argue for their point of view on important issues, but they don’t have a deep-seated need to control everything in an effort to force that point of view on others.

  15. Mara wrote:

    comp doctrine is all about take over and control which leads to oppression

    “8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 “All this I will give You,” he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.”
    (from the holy Gospel of St. Matthew 4)

    The victims who speak here at TWW tell of the evil they have been exposed to ….. they stand witness to this evil. The Church has an obligation to hear them and then to try to spare others in the Church the same suffering. This is most assuredly a work of mercy.

    ““The infernal serpent; he it was whose guile,
    Stirr’d up with envy and revenge,
    deceived The mother of mankind.”
    (John Milton, ‘Paradise Lost’)

  16. Dale wrote:

    We must purify the Society, brethren.

    As Citizen Robespierre Purified the French Republique of Perfect Virtue,
    As Comrade Pol Pot Purified Democratic Kampuchea,
    As the Taliban and Daesh Purified the Perfect Islamic State.

  17. Max wrote:

    ” … given how we have seen the Calvinista crowd operate over the years, can there be any doubt that they want total control of the ETS?”

    “The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering among the Powerless.”
    — Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984

  18. Max wrote:

    ” … given how we have seen the Calvinista crowd operate over the years, can there be any doubt that they want total control of the ETS?”
    No doubt on my end! They want to control everything they touch with their ‘right’ theology.

    “There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER.”
    — Lord Voldemort

  19. Ultimately, the hyper-Calvinists want more than to just control the discussion. They want to control the people who have that discussion.

    Hyper-Calvinist ideology is completely antithesis to Christ’s message, so it’s no wonder they seek to diminish Him. Their ideology stands in complete opposition to what most evangelicals stand for, that Christ came to set us free from the law.

  20. GC wrote:

    Most people want to support and maybe even argue for their point of view on important issues, but they don’t have a deep-seated need to control everything in an effort to force that point of view on others.

    It’s been my longstanding belief, from having met some of these people, that many of the hyper-Calvinist leaders are men with very bad self-esteem issues, or they are narcissists who are magnificent manipulators, but have no emotional capability. Instead of turning to God and humbling themselves, they have decided that God must want them to turn the tables and control everyone else.

    Unfortunately, our culture is one in which these traits mean leadership potential. Christians should be wary of exactly these kinds of people, but most just follow them.

  21. Thanks to the Deebs for exposing the often, intentionally hidden problems in the evangelical church.

    Am heartbroken that the YRRs appear to be taking over so many churches and especially churches not openly identified as Baptist or PCA.

    From my little bit of research YRR appear to be very involved in planting churches described as non-denominational, but in fact are truly not non-denom. I wonder if HPMemphis is truly non-denom or really Baptist.

  22. “Given the controversy about “The Trinity” that ensued prior to the recent Evangelical Theological Society meeting, we are perplexed by the apparent lack of coverage in the wake of last week’s gathering. When the presentations and panel discussions become available in early December, we plan to report on some of them. ”

    I am not perplexed by the lack of coverage precisely because of the recent controversy. It is a conspiracy, but now they they know so many people are on to them, and disagree vehemently with them, that they have to keep it on the down low. If they didn’t expect a lot of pushback, they would have been eager to get their message out!

  23. DMZ wrote:

    r to be very involved in planting churches described as non-denominational, but in fact are truly not non-denom. I wonder if HPMemphis is truly non-denom or really Baptist.

    In my area, most non-denoms are Baptist in their teachings. They are just not part of the SBC.

    Planter churches: IMB has sent out 50 new missionaries. An article listed three of the churches from which the missionaries hail. One is definitely YRR. Another is a “Cowboy” church. I couldn’t get any info on the third. I wonder what would happen if Platt released the beliefs of all of these 50 new missionaries?

  24. Mara wrote:

    There will be not silent takeover of the ETS like there was of the SBC. We are onto them now.

    You make an excellent point. Which also lends itself to how things will shake out. Who is an ideologue and who is an opportunist? Grudem and Ware have reputation and pride at stake in addition to income. They have staked their careers on this teaching. Are they introducing a more “robust” and “winsome” explanation to squeeze it into orthodoxy? I am interested to hear the presentation.

    Mohler was quick to go neutral even saying he did not totally agree with ESS but it was within bounds of orthodoxy. He he seemed to be trying to use it as an example of how big tent he is at sbts. That it proved he was tolerant of other doctrinal views so we should be, too.

    I LOL’d all day on that one.

  25. I said this before on an older thread, but…

    Complementarians already have the CBMW (Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood), so they are into over-reach. They have no right or need to take over every other Christian group out there and make them all branches of CBMW.

    This ETS group does not need to be the “ETS of Complementarianism.”

  26. Lydia wrote:

    Mohler was quick to go neutral even saying he did not totally agree with ESS but it was within bounds of orthodoxy. He he seemed to be trying to use it as an example of how big tent he is at sbts. That it proved he was tolerant of other doctrinal views so we should be, too.

    He’s tolerant of other views only if they are variations of complementarianism.

    I bet he’s not tolerant of views that are opposed or in disagreement with complementarianism.

  27. Mara wrote:

    The very essence of the complementarian doctrine is control.
    It’s all about control and seeks to control.
    Though filled with flowery words and lots of sugar to help the medicine go down, comp doctrine is all about take over and control which leads to oppression.

    “Medicine”? You meant “poison”, right? 😉

  28. I don’t really think complementarianism is the main issue. It’s a stepping stone to enact authoritarianism. As they say in Clue, “..a red herring.”

    Putting Christ below God, and therefore making His message less or not important, is the big issue.

    These guys never talk about Christ’s message, and they ignore all the things Jesus said about the Kingdom. It’s okay for Christ to be the Savior, but if you make Jesus God, then His words have the authority of God. They are clearly trying to erode Jesus’ authority, so they can place themselves in the position of God.

  29. Lydia wrote:

    Mohler was quick to go neutral even saying he did not totally agree with ESS but it was within bounds of orthodoxy. He he seemed to be trying to use it as an example of how big tent he is at sbts.

    Come into my parlor, said the spider to the fly…..

  30. Daisy wrote:

    Complementarians already have the CBMW (Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood), so they are into over-reach. They have no right or need to take over every other Christian group out there and make them all branches of CBMW.

    Not from our point of view, that is. However, if they’re convinced that their movement demands absolute hegemony… well, how can they not?

  31. Nancy2 wrote:

    I wonder what would happen if Platt released the beliefs of all of these 50 new missionaries?

    Why won’t he ???
    Seems to me that ‘secrecy’ about what a missionary believes and will teach is a give-away of same old, same old neo-Cal stealth method of operations.

  32. GC wrote:

    This is the thing that continues to amaze me, how very much these guys want to control anything and everything – women, pew peons, churches, educational institutions, narratives, the Bible itself, etc. That seems very, very odd to me. Most people want to support and maybe even argue for their point of view on important issues, but they don’t have a deep-seated need to control everything in an effort to force that point of view on others.

    It’s odd to me too. I learned more about it in the Evans book about Verbal abuse.

    Evans explains in the book that there are basically two different ways of looking at relationships: mutual cooperation and what she calls “Power Over.”

    I fall into the mutual camp, but I was surprised to learn there are folks out there who view all relationships (even family or dating relationships!!) as power struggles.

    These people feel that every one is just like them. They want control over you, so they assume that you must want control over them (even if you do not), so they use verbal abuse as one tool to keep you in your place.

    That book helped me to understand a bit more why my sister (who is a verbal abuser) treats me like an enemy and not a friend. That has always puzzled me.

    I had no idea why my sister acted that way, but thanks to this book, I kind of get it now…

    Although I still find it very weird and sad that folks like her view a relationship as nothing but a power struggle, where you are suspicious all the time, and trying to exert control constantly.

    Books about workplace abuse mention the same thing. Some of your co-workers might be overly competitive with you or simply mean to you, because they assume that you are out to stomp on them and get them too.

    So they want to beat you before you can beat them. What a sad way to live.

    I assume this mindset carries over to pastors and church people, too.

  33. Daisy wrote:

    I posted about this on an older Tullian thread the other day, but I guess nobody saw it:
    Among other things, Tullian Tchividjian really dislikes Julie Anne:
    https://natesparks130.com/2016/11/21/do-unto-others/

    an interesting link ….. Tullian tries to groom supporters to play the game ‘let’s you girls and my enemies go fight’ …. very manipulative game-playing

    Tullian is using real people to target his ‘enemy’ but sometimes a person on a site will blog using a variety of different names, making it look like a lot of people are attacking the intended target

  34. Just a prophetic reminder that Leicester City, the most improbable Premiership champions ever last season, can qualify for the knock-out stages of the Champions’ League tonight.

    Best regards,
    God
    (who defends the poor and the downtrodden)

  35. God wrote:

    Just a prophetic reminder that Leicester City, the most improbable Premiership champions ever last season, can qualify for the knock-out stages of the Champions’ League tonight.
    Best regards,
    God

    With a statement like that from a source such as this, I suppose there is no point in praying for the other team, is there? 🙂

  36. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    You meant “poison”, right?

    Heh, heh. Yep.

    We know it’s poison.

    They think it is medicine.
    Many of them really believe that they hold the cure for the modern American family. Comp and patri will cure it, gosh darn it! Just give it a chance.

    You gave it a chance already? Well you didn’t give it a good enough or long enough chance. It really will work if you’d just do it right! The problem is you, after all. Not their doctrine.

  37. To the title of the original post, in order for a conspiracy to work it needs to remain hidden and operate without general knowledge. Now that the attempt (likely a plot but that has yet to be empirically proven) to realign ETS to complimentarian standards and recreate it into the image of CBMW has been publicly called out, I think we can say that it is no longer a conspiracy but is now a coup d’etat of sorts.

  38. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    Not from our point of view, that is. However, if they’re convinced that their movement demands absolute hegemony… well, how can they not?

    “TOMORROW THE WORLD!!!!!”

  39. ishy wrote:

    They are clearly trying to erode Jesus’ authority, so they can place themselves in the position of God.

    They want to knock the Words of Jesus down and raise up the words of Paul, the verses in which they base their authority.

  40. Daisy wrote:

    Although I still find it very weird and sad that folks like her view a relationship as nothing but a power struggle, where you are suspicious all the time, and trying to exert control constantly.

    Because when everything is Power Struggle, there are only two possible end states:
    1) Your Boot Stamping on My Face.
    2) My Boot Stamping on Your Face.
    NOTHING in-between, NOTHING else. And the only way to avoid (1) is to make sure of (2). FOREVER.

    “The Game of Thrones. YOU WIN OR YOU DIE.”
    — Cersei Baratheon-Lannister

  41. Why are they writing resolutions about what constitutes ‘personal identity’??? How idiotic and unhelpful.

  42. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
    Not from our point of view, that is. However, if they’re convinced that their movement demands absolute hegemony… well, how can they not?

    “TOMORROW THE WORLD!!!!!”

    For some reason, I just started singing the pinky and the brain song. One is a genius, the others insane…

  43. Mara wrote:

    They want to knock the Words of Jesus down and raise up the words of Paul, the verses in which they base their authority.

    Mara, do you think that is the reason why some people reject the words of Our Lord as more important in sacred Scripture?

    The first time I heard about this, I was really surprised, and I couldn’t figure it out;
    and then I learned of how the Baptist Faith & Message 2K had got rid of Christ as the lens through which Scripture is to be interpreted and not soon after, I heard the sad story of what happened to Dr. Klouda at SWBTS because she was a woman. I put two and two together and realized that these MEN had removed the Royal Law of Christ from prominance, and raised their own interpretation of St. Paul’s words up as an excuse to treat Dr. Klouda poorly. Very sad. But that was my opinion, as an ‘outsider’ from a Church that believes that Our Lord spoke and acted in the very Person of God in sacred Scripture, and so His Words take pre-eminance when interpreting any other portions of Scripture.

  44. I have wondered if complementarianism in general has some conspiracy elements in it. This is mostly because I hear a lot of what women should do and not a lot about men other than lead, lead, lead. Not a lot is talked about love and understanding and laying one’s self down. Authority, power and leadership are highlighted for men. Joyful obedience and submission for women. Something is terribly wrong with this message. I sat under the weight of it for far too long as it ate away at my self-worth and relationship with God. How can women maintain a healthy relationship with God if this is who they think God is? And the takeover of so many theologians/pastors is just so very disturbing.

  45. Toiler wrote:

    Authority, power and leadership are highlighted for men. Joyful obedience and submission for women. Something is terribly wrong with this message.

    Because we should ALWAYS be suspicious of people who run around telling us they need power over us, to make our decision, and they we should just let them.

    This tendency exists in a lot of places in society, but I think it can do the most damage in these interpersonal relationships because its every day, everything.

  46. Daisy wrote:

    Among other things, Tullian Tchividjian really dislikes Julie Anne:

    I think that Julie Anne is only incidental as far as his dislikes go.
    I don’t think Tchividjian would like any Eshet Chayil (Hebrew for Woman of Valor).
    Women like Julie Anne (in addition to our blog queens) are an affront to the machismo of many men, religious and secular alike.

  47. A takeover by an unorthodox minority can easily happen if the majority are too so focused on “maintaining unity” that they fail to fight back.

  48. Christiane wrote:

    The first time I heard about this, I was really surprised, and I couldn’t figure it out;
    and then I learned of how the Baptist Faith & Message 2K

    Don’t feel too badly. I have spent my life in Baptist churches, and I didn’t hear about the BFM 2K until 2011. ~~~~. A man who pushed to become a deacon started teaching the BFM 2K to a SS class full of late teen and twenty somethings! BFM 2K was their SS lesson for weeks!

  49. Toiler wrote:

    I have wondered if complementarianism in general has some conspiracy elements in it. This is mostly because I hear a lot of what women should do and not a lot about men other than lead, lead, lead. Not a lot is talked about love and understanding and laying one’s self down. Authority, power and leadership are highlighted for men. Joyful obedience and submission for women. Something is terribly wrong with this message. I sat under the weight of it for far too long as it ate away at my self-worth and relationship with God. How can women maintain a healthy relationship with God if this is who they think God is? And the takeover of so many theologians/pastors is just so very disturbing.

    Tell me ’bout it! The last church my husband (lord?) chose really pushes submission of women. I stopped attending in February. I have come to the conclusion that there is no reason for me to attend. If their teachings are wrong, it is heresey, so I don’t need to be there. If their teachings are right, women probably don’t have souls ….. we are nothing more than the first animal species God commanded man to have dominion over …… so it doesn’t really matter if I go to church, anyway.

  50. Edward wrote:

    A takeover by an unorthodox minority can easily happen if the majority are too so focused on “maintaining unity” that they fail to fight back.

    Like what happened in the SBC?

  51. Well, Leicester did it – good shout from God there.

    Elsewhere, Borussia Dortmund won 8-4 – I’ve never seen that score in a fitba’ match.

    GNFS

  52. Nancy2 wrote:

    Toiler wrote:

    I have wondered if complementarianism in general has some conspiracy elements in it. This is mostly because I hear a lot of what women should do and not a lot about men other than lead, lead, lead. Not a lot is talked about love and understanding and laying one’s self down. Authority, power and leadership are highlighted for men. Joyful obedience and submission for women. Something is terribly wrong with this message. I sat under the weight of it for far too long as it ate away at my self-worth and relationship with God. How can women maintain a healthy relationship with God if this is who they think God is? And the takeover of so many theologians/pastors is just so very disturbing.

    Tell me ’bout it! The last church my husband (lord?) chose really pushes submission of women. I stopped attending in February. I have come to the conclusion that there is no reason for me to attend. If their teachings are wrong, it is heresey, so I don’t need to be there. If their teachings are right, women probably don’t have souls ….. we are nothing more than the first animal species God commanded man to have dominion over …… so it doesn’t really matter if I go to church, anyway.

    Anything-goes Evangelicalism is broken. Evangelicalism is not ‘Church’, and it is not ‘Christianity’.

  53. @ Christiane:
    Why surprised? You have said before you thought Baptists were all like Westboro you saw on TV. So, That is why you checked out Baptist blogs.

  54. Lydia wrote:

    Why surprised? You have said before you thought Baptists were all like Westboro you saw on TV. So, That is why you checked out Baptist blogs.

    This is what I said, LYDIA:
    “one day, I turn on the TV and I see a Baptist Church protesting a soldier’s funeral, screaming at the dead hero’s family.
    It was the Westboro Baptist Church.
    I was horrified.
    I knew that wasn’t my Grandmother’s faith. I knew it. But I was worried. So I called a cousin who is Protestant and she said that Grandmother had been a Southern Baptist. So I came looking to find out the truth.And here, I found that Westboro Baptist Church is NOT the same as my Grandmother’s faith, thank God.”
    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2009/03/southern-baptist-pastor-encouraged-by.html

    LYDIA, you have brought this up before, yes. I wonder how many people, that when they first saw Westboro on telly and were shocked, and then heard ‘Baptist’ Church, also said ‘no’, that can’t be. ? I’m sure I’m not the only one.

    What I saw of Westboro in action made me sick to my stomach and it bore no resemblance to the grace-filled woman who was my grandmother of blessed memory.

    So I did find out for sure. I went TO THE SOURCE directly …. to Baptist blogs and read, and asked. My Church taught me to have respect for other faith communities and that is why I checked to affirm that Westboro was nothing like my grandmother’s Church.

    I credit God with a strange and wonderful intervention because the site I first chose to come to was named ‘Grace and Truth To You’ and the pastor was Wade Burleson. I see blessing in being directed there and I remain thankful for it … very reassuring all the way around.

    Have a great Thanksgiving!

  55. Christiane wrote:

    LYDIA, you have brought this up before, yes. I wonder how many people, that when they first saw Westboro on telly and were shocked, and then heard ‘Baptist’ Church, also said ‘no’,

    Baptist chiming in on Westboro: I saw them live and in person at Ft. Campbell. They were protesting the funeral of an SF soldier who was killed in action. The MP’s and local popo kept them off the base and across the street from the main gate. No true Child of God of any faith would shout the words they shouted or carry those signs.

    My husband is retired career military. He was SF. It took all of the moral strength I had to keep from doing something ugly to the protestors. ……. like bomb them with some real BS from a dairy farm.

  56. Toiler wrote:

    I have wondered if complementarianism in general has some conspiracy elements in it. This is mostly because I hear a lot of what women should do and not a lot about men other than lead, lead, lead. Not a lot is talked about love and understanding and laying one’s self down. Authority, power and leadership are highlighted for men. Joyful obedience and submission for women. Something is terribly wrong with this message. I sat under the weight of it for far too long as it ate away at my self-worth and relationship with God. How can women maintain a healthy relationship with God if this is who they think God is? And the takeover of so many theologians/pastors is just so very disturbing.

    Amen.

  57. Mara wrote:

    Comp and patri will cure it, gosh darn it! Just give it a chance. You gave it a chance already? Well you didn’t give it a good enough or long enough chance. It really will work if you’d just do it right! The problem is you, after all. Not their doctrine.

    i.e. The Guru Is Never Wrong.

    AKA Dr. Lifton’s definition of “Sacred Science” (as I recall).

  58. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Because when everything is Power Struggle, there are only two possible end states:
    1) Your Boot Stamping on My Face.
    2) My Boot Stamping on Your Face.
    NOTHING in-between, NOTHING else. And the only way to avoid (1) is to make sure of (2). FOREVER.

    Which leads to one of two possible “solutions”: The Path Of Now And Forever, or the Eternal Doctrine. Both of which are what we would call “atrocities” rather than “solutions”.

    (For those of you not acquainted with my particular brand of geekery, please consult https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Control_races#Ur-Quan_Kzer-Za Enjoy. 🙂 )

  59. Lea wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
    Not from our point of view, that is. However, if they’re convinced that their movement demands absolute hegemony… well, how can they not?

    “TOMORROW THE WORLD!!!!!”

    For some reason, I just started singing the pinky and the brain song. One is a genius, the others insane…

    “NARF!”

  60. Nancy2 wrote:

    Baptist chiming in on Westboro

    Someone at work showed me their site 15 or more years ago. I thought it was basically the onion, for fundamentalist churches. A joke site.

    It was probably 5-10 years before I found out it was ‘real’.

  61. GC wrote:

    how very much these guys want to control anything and everything

    In contrast: Gal. 5:1 “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”

    Sounds like the control freaks need to get back to their liberty wherewith Christ has set them free.

  62. Lydia wrote:

    Mara wrote:

    Mohler was quick to go neutral even saying he did not totally agree with ESS but it was within bounds of orthodoxy. He he seemed to be trying to use it as an example of how big tent he is at sbts. That it proved he was tolerant of other doctrinal views so we should be, too.
    I LOL’d all day on that one.

    Lydia, Mohler is just waiting for the ESS doctrine to pick up momentum and gain a footing – then he’ll be sure to get on the ESS doctrinal wagon. He knows what side his bread is buttered on.

  63. Daisy wrote:

    I said this before on an older thread, but…
    Complementarians already have the CBMW (Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood), so they are into over-reach. They have no right or need to take over every other Christian group out there and make them all branches of CBMW.
    This ETS group does not need to be the “ETS of Complementarianism.”

    “Today Germany, tomorrow the world.” Or in Neo-Cal speak: Today the SBC and CBMW, tomorrow ETS and the entire Evangelical world.

  64. Complementarian Wayne Grudem got a mention here:

    Biblicism Revisited 4
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/11/22/biblicism-revisited-4/

    … essentially what this means is that the evangelical heritage for biblicism believes a person can read the Bible, understand what words mean and to what they refer with certainty, and can gather the facts in order to construct just what the Bible says.

    Smith says Wayne Grudem’s systematic theology exemplifies this model of thinking.

    He also mentions Greg Beale.

    But, language doesn’t work this way; human interpretation is involved in the gathering and sorting out of the “facts,” and anyway each of us is shaped by our cultural, religious, economic, ethnic… contexts when we gather and sort. Critical realism is vastly superior to commonsense realism.

  65. @ Daisy:

    Thanks for sharing Daisy.

    I agree with this:

    Second, I want to state clearly and unambiguously that I think the doctrine of the Trinity has absolutely nothing to say about the relationship of the sexes.

    Any attempts to map the trinity to a relationship between humans is unbiblical nonsense.

  66. Lea wrote:

    Any attempts to map the trinity to a relationship between humans is unbiblical nonsense.

    Gender roles and relationships were just the beginning. I read a sermon this morning, well skimmed it, where the pastor (young, recent seminary grad. The school isn’t specifically mentioned but the church is near SEBTS) says that one of the reasons the Trinity is significant is that it “tells us community is important,” i.e. church membership.

    The entire point is here:

    2. The Trinity tells us community is important.

    It’s no coincidence that God saves us from the penalty of our sins into the church. We were made for community. Why? Because we’re made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27). And God exists in community.

    Think about it: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have existed in community for all eternity. Community is an essential quality of what it means to be God — and, by extension, what it means to be human.

  67. @ Nancy2:

    Yes, and now I am in a bit of a quandary. I am a pastor (bi-vocational) of a church less than 10 miles from where he is and we are in the same association.

  68. Burwell wrote:

    It’s no coincidence that God saves us from the penalty of our sins into the church.

    What??

    Community is important. We can just say that, because we’re human and we need other people. It doesn’t have to be ‘church’.

  69. Lea wrote:

    Community is important. We can just say that, because we’re human and we need other people. It doesn’t have to be ‘church’.

    Oh, that definitely caught my attention as well. We can even say that there is a strong Biblical case for church affiliation (I would argue that membership as it is now understood is not what was in mind) without having to bring in and misinterpret the Trinity.

    A quote from Giles’ presentation applies here as well:

    They are in no way connected and when they are connected both doctrines are corrupted.

  70. @ Lydia:

    “Mohler was quick to go neutral even saying he did not totally agree with ESS but it was within bounds of orthodoxy. He he seemed to be trying to use it as an example of how big tent he is at sbts. That it proved he was tolerant of other doctrinal views so we should be, too.”
    ++++++++++++++

    reminds of a cock-up in the manufacturing department, and the marketing department simply selling the defective product as “NEW” “and IMPROVED”, and ‘we’re on the cutting edge with our new and improvedness, unlike those brands over there with their same ol’ products’.

    no more gullible people than christians. but then christian culture grooms its adherents to be so, childlike faith / trust / must have unity / must make the sign of the cross against any whiff of factions and divisions & all.

  71. @ Daisy:
    Thanks for the link Daisy. Dr. Giles provides an interesting perspective on the ESS doctrine and does a scholarly job countering the arguments made by Ware and Grudem. In his postscript, the lofty arrogance of Grudem is telling when Dr. Giles writes “In the very brief time at the end of the forum for exchange between the four speakers … Dr Grudem did not address me. It was as if I had not spoken.” In Grudem’s world, there is only Calvin, Grudem, and those who agree with them – they have it right; all who oppose their teachings are wrong and not worthy to debate. There is no shortage of arrogance in New Calvinist ranks.

  72. Pingback: Linkathon! | PhoenixPreacher UNITED STATES

  73. Max wrote:

    In his postscript, the lofty arrogance of Grudem is telling when Dr. Giles writes “In the very brief time at the end of the forum for exchange between the four speakers … Dr Grudem did not address me. It was as if I had not spoken.”

    “You Do Not Exist.”
    That was doublethink…
    — G.Orwell, 1984, regarding “the dispensing of existence”

  74. Nancy2 wrote:

    If their teachings are right, women probably don’t have souls ….. we are nothing more than the first animal species God commanded man to have dominion over ……

    Make that “animal species With Benefits (nudge nudge wink wink known what I mean know what I mean…)”

  75. Lea wrote:

    @ Daisy:

    Thanks for sharing Daisy.

    I agree with this:

    Second, I want to state clearly and unambiguously that I think the doctrine of the Trinity has absolutely nothing to say about the relationship of the sexes.

    Any attempts to map the trinity to a relationship between humans is unbiblical nonsense.

    Yes. It also remakes God in our image. (Mormons take this to an extreme, claiming that the only difference between human father-son relationships and that between the Father and the Son is one of degree).

  76. I was at ETS too and if memory serves me correct, Wallace first said he was complementarian, reformed, etc, before affirming that ETS has never been limited to those segments of evangelicalism and then followed with the statements you gave above (i.e., it isn’t the evangelical complementarian society, etc). Nothing too controversial there – a complementarian affirming that he is a complementarian in a society that is broader than complementarians …

  77. @ John:
    John, since you were at ETS, was there any indication that Drs. Grudem and Ware will receive some sort of rebuke from the society regarding an unorthodox stand on their Eternal Subordination of the Son teaching? Does ETS have any way to control, reel in, or “shun” wayward members who express such extreme views opposed by most of Christendom? Putting aside complementarian vs. egalitarian sexual roles, a challenge to the historical teaching of the Trinity itself is alarming and demands an appropriate response from theologians across the world.

  78. @ Max:
    It seemed like Grudem and Erickson were having a good conversation about the biblical material referring to trinitarian actions – i.e., the Father created through the Son, believers are chosen by the Father in the Son, the Father gave them to the Son, after the ascension the Son receives the Spirit from the Father and pours out the Spirit, etc, etc. It seemed like a conversation that both appreciated.

  79. Nancy2 wrote:

    Baptist chiming in on Westboro: I saw them live and in person at Ft. Campbell. They were protesting the funeral of an SF soldier who was killed in action. The MP’s and local popo kept them off the base and across the street from the main gate. No true Child of God of any faith would shout the words they shouted or carry those signs.

    My husband is retired career military. He was SF. It took all of the moral strength I had to keep from doing something ugly to the protestors. ……. like bomb them with some real BS from a dairy farm.

    Amazingly, Megan Phelps Roper, having grown up in that world and having been very involved in the doings of Westboro, came to her senses and left it all behind. It was compassion and friendship from the people they targeted that finally pierced through her hardened heart and showed her how untenable their positions were.

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/23/conversion-via-twitter-westboro-baptist-church-megan-phelps-roper

  80. Christiane wrote:

    LYDIA, you have brought this up before, yes. I wonder how many people, that when they first saw Westboro on telly and were shocked, and then heard ‘Baptist’ Church, also said ‘no’, that can’t be. ? I’m sure I’m not the only one.

    There are different Baptist denominations and there are many independent churches that call themselves “Baptist” so it didn’t mean much to me.

  81. Lea wrote:

    Why are they writing resolutions about what constitutes ‘personal identity’??? How idiotic and unhelpful.

    I do not understand why this is so important to them! If Christianity has to be known as fighting against something, why can’t it be something that actually harms people, like child abuse?

  82. John wrote:

    It seemed like Grudem and Erickson were having a good conversation

    It seems like Grudem convinced Erickson that to deny the Son’s eternal submission would threaten both the Trinity and the Bible! I repeat… is there any framework within ETS to call Grudem and Ware on the carpet for this aberrant teaching?!

  83. Edward wrote:

    A takeover by an unorthodox minority can easily happen if the majority are too so focused on “maintaining unity” that they fail to fight back.

    Just ask Comrade Lenin.

  84. Edward wrote:

    A takeover by an unorthodox minority can easily happen if the majority are too so focused on “maintaining unity” that they fail to fight back.

    That’s exactly what has happened in the Southern Baptist Convention! As the New Calvinist movement penetrated SBC ranks, the non-Calvinist majority began to express concerns, while national SBC leadership called for unity to preserve the Cooperative Program and its home/foreign mission funding. In the meantime, SBC’s international mission agency under New Calvinist leadership recalled 1,000 veteran missionaries (predominantly non-Calvinist) and SBC’s home mission agency under New Calvinist leadership planted 1,000 new churches (predominantly Calvinist). Thus, a once-great evangelistic denomination surrendered ground for the sake of unity, but became more divided in the process.

  85. Max wrote:

    Thus, a once-great evangelistic denomination surrendered ground for the sake of unity, but became more divided in the process.

    And hierarchical.

  86. Velour wrote:

    NeoCalvinism. “The Elect”. Sickening.

    Oops, sorry, my bad. I was trying to summarize what Grudem and Erickson were discussing. I think that part was from Ephesians 1:4