“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.”– Ralph Waldo Emerson link
“The trouble with most of us is that we’d rather be ruined by praise than saved by criticism.” – Norman Vincent Peale link
A number of years ago, I got really miffed when the wife of an elder at a former church got involved in a multi level marketing program (not Amway this time.) I received complaints from some of the women in my Bible study who were getting weary of her pushing her *fabulous,* high end, discounted merchandise and trying to get them involved.
Since it involved a number of women, I decided to go see one of the pastors. In a rather huffy manner, I told him about the problem. This pastor was a wise and kind sort of pastor. He looked at me and asked me why I couldn't see beyond the concrete to understand what might be going on in this woman's life. He recounted how she had to step down from the music ministry since her voice was weakening. Her kids had left the home and she had been heavily involved in their activities, etc. Her husband worked many hours and she was alone a lot. Maybe she was looking for something that she could say she personally accomplished.
He told me that, although the incessant calling for her MLM was inappropriate, I also needed to be more sensitive to understanding people beyond the obvious. I felt like a light went on in my brain. When people annoy us, take up too much of our time, etc., how often do we try to understand them beyond the superficial? Think about this as you read the following by Thom Rainer.
Pastors get distracted by too much criticism and it must be stopped.
In 2011, Thom Rainer wrote The Great Distraction to the Great Commission. His basic thesis is that criticism of God glorifying pastors is on the rise and this must be stopped! Period! No introspection, no caveats, no questioning of the paradigm, nada!
Criticisms have always been a part of a pastor’s life, but it seems that the rate and the intensity of the criticisms have both increased.
An example of criticism with no introspection.
Rainer observed this following example while visiting a pastor friend. A woman emailed a pastor 5 minutes after a service was over and said she didn't like the music. There is no deeper reason given for this email. Nothing is mentioned about the background of this woman that might give depth to the critique. For example:
- Could she have just lost her husband and was sad, utilizing the email to express her pain?
- Could she have transferred from a church that only had organ music and needed a friend within the church to help her understand the ethos of this church?
- Could she have gotten blasted out by speakers set way too loud for safe hearing?
Instead, it became all about this poor, sad pastor who had to deal with nobodies who had the unmitigated gall to critique something.
She sent it within five minutes after the service,” he said softly.
“We just have to press on and love the critics,” he spoke with resignation. “But it sure does get old.”
Yes, dealing with people gets old but, bless your heart, that is your ministry as a pastor.
Pastors, it is important you get this straight. You job as a pastor does not mean you will be living on the edge of adventure each day. No one does.
You will not be *transforming the entire world with the audacious message of the gospel" as I heard one pastor say recently. Jesus had to deal with the day to day issues of his disciples. There was squabbling, jockeying for position, lousy theology and self- centeredness. Why should you be any different?
The more I contemplate Jesus,the more I realize that He complained very little about the average people. However, he got really made at the religious leaders who thought their job was far more important than the leper who was ostracized from society.
This pastor was doing everything right, right?
He was leading the church to greater depths of discipleship, and many in the community were becoming believers in Christ. The worship services were incredible; everything from the prayers to the preaching to the music was God-centered and God-glorifying
Wow- everything was just perfect…or was it? I see nothing stated about the love that this pastor has for the people attending his church. There is nothing mentioned about the warm conversations between the pastors and the folks after the message. In fact, if I am to believe this post, that the pastor and Rainer high tailed it back to the pastor's office within 5 minutes of the ending of the service to critique those who critiqued him! I had a good laugh about this.
Rainer said criticism has been a distraction to his ministry
Because the church I served was small, the number of critics was relatively small. Their barbs still hurt though, and their criticisms were a distraction to my ministry.
So, Rainer was distracted by criticism…Well, it is a good thing that Jesus and the disciples who followed Him were not distracted by criticism or we would not have had the church. Jesus was killed by his critics. All of His disciples were martyred by their critics except for John who got to spend life in a prison on Patmos. Somehow, in the midst of this, their ministry flourished. Did Rainer have such criticism in his ministry?
According to Rainer, it is Satan distracting leaders from the Great Commission.
( TWW maxim: Whenever Jezebel, Hitler or Satan is brought into the discussion, we have left the realm of thoughtful commentary.)
Criticism is a huge distraction. Though I’m reticent to speak for Satan, I have to believe that one of his primary weapons against the church is distracting leaders from the Great Commission.
Now, call me naive, but I thought that the Great Commission was to be fulfilled by all of the members of the church universal, not just the leaders.
Oh yeah, why does Satan only go after the church members to distract the pastor with criticism? I think we are getting into some squirrely theology here. Give me verses, Thom, verses…
You cannot make disciples when you have to deal with critics.
Who has time to make disciples when we have to listen to Betty or Bob complain and criticize for 45 minutes? Pastors lose valuable time and, inevitably, have little energy to do anything else after bearing the barbs of the latest critic.
Notice that he invents a silly *all or none* situation. You must listen to Betty for 45 minutes-not 15 minutes. Also, I guess he cannot bring in his *disciple* to learn how to deal with Betty since the pastor is discipling people to do more important stuff than caring for the people in his congregation.
By the way, what is going on with Betty? Does she just want to criticize since it give her the jollies or is Betty asking to be heard. After all, Betty may be tithing her limited income to the church and wants to understand what her money is actually being used for. Maybe Betty actually has something to say but since she is a woman, all she is allowed to do is go to the women's Bible study which is run by the pastor's wife who is insufferable. Maybe Betty is lonely.
Pastors are getting beat up daily for insignificant matters and the internet is to blame! Dang it.
It sure is annoying when those bloggers point out insignificant issues like child sex abuse. Even worse, that Internet thing allow women to critique posts written by men.
I know that pastors are not above criticism. And sometimes the critic can be well-intentioned. But things are way out of balance now. Pastors are getting beat up daily for some of the most insignificant matters. Many are unable to lead because they fear the latest round of attacks. And it seems like the advent of Internet, text messaging, and the social media has accelerated the attacks.
This criticism is reaching a crisis!
"Batten down the hatches, boys, they're coming for us!" If it was a crisis in 2011, can you imagine what it is at the end of 2016? Armageddon!!!!
The problem is serious. Indeed, I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say that it is a crisis. It’s time to respond.
I am convinced that we have a major crisis in our churches
This doomsday scenario is being caused by the unregenerate.
This is Calvinista speak for "not saved." So, the little old lady who doesn't like the music is going to hell. In the meantime, the very busy, totally regenerate pastor, who hides out in his office after the sermon, is doing God-glorifying™ work. It's really quite simple in Calvinistaville.
I can’t judge the heart, but I do find it hard to believe that some of the most vitriolic criticisms come from the heart of Christians. I am convinced more than ever that we have let millions of unregenerate members into our churches. We are now suffering the consequences of such low standards of church membership.
This post is an example of a critique by a biased and arbitrary individual who only sees God glorifying pastors(since he was one) who overlooks the sins of the church and the leaders so long it is one of his preferred churches or leaders.
I believe that Thom Rainer totally overlooked the real problem.
The pastor is a much of a sinner as the person who he is critiquing. Love for the people in the church means listening to them, even when it is boring. It means spending time with Betty when he would rather be spending time fulfilling The Great Commission. But, maybe it isn't an either or proposition. Maybe loving Betty and understanding her is part and parcel of the Great Commission. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Lord sent Betty to that pastor to teach him about the gospel? Maybe he should take Betty out to lunch and try to understand her. But, there are so many conferences to attend and books to write…
Say in ain’t so… first?
I’m sorry, but did I miss the part in the Bible that said the pastor equip the people in the church to do the work of ministry, including spreading the gospel?
I’m glad my pastor doesn’t find my questions annoying. I suffer from anxiety and depression and he has listened and prayed for me so much. Of course he isn’t a Calvinista….
Sums it up right there, doesn’t it! If you hate people, chose a different profession, ya’ll.
@ roebuck:
You are quicker than Thom Rainer for sure.
once had an irate parent call me about her son’s grade and she was out-of-control screaming on the phone ….. I listened; and then I asked her ‘are you okay?’
she started to cry and told me that she was very upset. Her husband was ill and she worked and her health coverage was needed for the family …. knowing this, her employer, her boss, made it clear to her that he expected sexual favors; I invited her to come in to school and talk with me
reading this post, that day came back to me … hard to forget things like that, yes
I have a few thoughts on pastor Thom’s comments.
I have recently been becoming more and more aware of the meaningless things Christians say, like, “He was leading the church to greater depths of discipleship” What does that even mean, please? Is there any objective meaning, any objective evidence? This is one man’s observation, what is it based on? Do we just take his word for it?
“Many in the community were becoming believers in Christ” – I see this kind of statement made a lot but often there is no objective evidence for it. We have it used here (as it usually is) as a form of validation for what the pastor is doing and a righteous defense against all critics. The message is, people are being saved who wouldn’t be without him, so who are you to question anything he’s doing? Well, God has been calling people to faith ever since the cross and there are always people becoming believers, with or without celebrity pastors. But, also, sometimes people are just playing musical churches. One church gets to be “the place to go” and their attendance swells. These are mostly believers who moved there from another church. Maybe they are finding a deeper walk with God or maybe they came because of the coffee bar and bouncy house for the kids. It used to be they counted Baptisms but Furtick kind of spoiled that idea. “Decisions” turned out to mean anything they could wrangle you into coming down to the altar about. As to whether many are believing because of this (or any) man or church, only God knows that.
Maybe I sound like a cynic, but it took me many years of experiences to get here. I just find that Christian leaders can make statements like this and everyone takes it as though it’s an objective fact, when really it’s very subjective.
So I guess Betty and Bob do not count as disciples. I thought “discipleship” carried the meaning of on-going learning and growth? Is that phase over for Betty and Bob? Pastor no longer has time for them?
I bring this up because I have noticed over the years that many pastors only have time and compassion for those who have NOT believed yet. Their hearts are full of love- for people they DON’T KNOW. Once you have believed, they check you off their list and they can’t be bothered with you.
I have not seen this happening at all. I am seeing pastors turning into celebrities who are unwilling to hear or respond to the least question or rebuke. They immediately block people who are anything less than adoring. They consider themselves above having to respond to any disagreement or question.
In the thread on Pastor Pete Wilson, who claimed to be leaving his position because he was tired but who was really caught preying on women sexually, Dave A A pointed out, “Pete Wilson has a rather larger social media presence than Wartburg Watch, with over 55 thousand followers on Twitter and 61thousand on Facebook.” Apparently, the annoyance of having the truth written about him has not affected his base of supporters.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/10/24/pete-wilson-and-cross-point-church-until-there-is-truth-lessons-will-not-be-learned/comment-page-3/#comment-293496
These pastors are masters of marketing and the use of social media. They employ companies to oversee their images. I don’t feel much sympathy for them if once in a while they are called on to exercise their patience and graciousness to respond to a critic. Some of them post the most absurd things, too.
Maybe if they were sure of what they believe and always had a ready and gracious response to questions, and if they had no guilty conscience about things going on behind the scenes, these moments would not be so unnerving to them?
What a crybaby..
He should see what it is like in the real world when you have jobs that deal with people all the time! You should see the reviews/comments I get as a faculty member from students, my papers and proposals!! It is just a fact of life that people are faster to complain/criticism than praise! Except it, and use to learn and improve!! And use it to minister to people! And, the fact that you get criticism means that people are paying attention to you. Would you rather not have anyone care about what you say or do??
Who has time to make disciples when we have to listen to Betty or Bob complain and criticize for 45 minutes? Pastors lose valuable time and, inevitably, have little energy to do anything else after bearing the barbs of the latest critic.
Can you not ‘disciple’ betty or bob? Maybe Betty would like to have input on the music ministry and should be involved. I’m not sure who the pastors think they are supposed to be spending their time on if not the church membership. They don’t really think they are saving all that many souls preaching to the choir in church on sunday, do they? (although I guess calvinists don’t think they are saving souls, so I don’t actually know what they think they’re doing if not teaching and loving their members)
Also, I have no idea why Thom knows the music of this particular church so well as to say that the music is perfect every week, unless he is talking about himself or making this up. Knowing the quality of music in many churches, I am inclined to believe the criticisms are valid.
@ Lea:
Sorry that first para was a quote, must have missed closing a tab..
“Love for the people in the church means listening to them, even when it is boring. It means spending time with Betty when he would rather be spending time fulfilling The Great Commission. But, maybe it isn’t an either or proposition. Maybe loving Betty and understanding her is part and parcel of the Great Commission. Wouldn’t it be interesting if the Lord sent Betty to that pastor to teach him about the gospel?”
well said
“There is nothing mentioned about the warm conversations between the pastors and the folks after the message. In fact, if I am to believe this post, that the pastor and Rainer high tailed it back to the pastor’s office within 5 minutes of the ending of the service to critique those who critiqued him! I had a good laugh about this.”
In the neo-cal world, it seems that church pastors are more like commanding officers and less like servants.
Not only do they dread your in-office visits and e-mails, but preachers really don’t want your phone calls, either.
Why Most Pastors Aren’t Answering Your Phone Calls
http://www.christianitytoday.com/karl-vaters/2016/august/why-most-pastors-arent-answering-your-phone-calls.html?paging=off
(I know I’ve shared that same link at least twice before on this blog, so I’m sorry if some of you are tired of seeing it again, but it kills me.)
Let me see if I understand Ranier:
Regenerate church members= agree with pastor
Unregenerate church members=disagree with pastor
Nancy2 wrote:
But commanding officers actually get leadership training and are held accountable for toxic leadership. And they go through a tough selection process after many years of service. Some bad ones slip through the cracks, but most are honorable and worth following. The new-Calvinist leaders are not in the same league as commanding officers.
@ Jeffrey Chalmers:
Beat me to it. These perfumed Prince special snowflakes really have no clue of life outside their bubble.
Here is a clue about the integrity of the highly paid LifeWay Pres, Thom Rainer:
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2016/01/scam-alert-thom-rainer-offers-to-mentor.html?m=1
siteseer wrote:
They often use the word “community” when there is no evidence with new members.
@ Christiane:
Good lesson for me as a teacher. Thanks.
The Good Shepherd puts up with my complaining all the time.
“Wouldn’t it be interesting if the Lord sent Betty to that pastor to teach him about the gospel?”
DEE’s question reflects something beautiful about the way of grace. 🙂
Rainer’s criticism about criticism is a subliminal attack on watchbloggers, rather than simply a chastisement of church members who express concerns about their church leaders. He’s really not so concerned about words hurled at local church pastors, as he is in protecting the New Calvinist who’s who from cyberspace scrutiny. Mohler has Rainer in his pocket; Rainer is seeing too much in the blogosphere about his old boss and he wants it stopped. Good Lord, the great distraction to the Great Commission is the New Calvinist movement … that’s why we are criticizing it!
“Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.””
-The Great Commission, Matthew 28:18-20 NLT
Seems to me a pastor has a churchful of individuals needing to be taught. Critical members should not be viewed as a distraction keeping the pastor from fulfilling the Great Commission, but as individuals whom Christ was referring to in the above passage.
“I heartily add my own solemn warnings against your pampering the flesh by listening to the praises of the kindest friends you have. They are injudicious, and you must beware of them. A sensible friend who will unsparingly criticize you from week to week will be a far greater blessing to you than a thousand undiscriminating admirers if you have sense enough to bear his treatment, and grace enough to be thankful for it.”
-C.H. Spurgeon, “Lectures to My Students”
I hate it when pastors/leaders talk about their members being “distractions.” People are your ministry so shut up. Just yesterday I heard people talking about how “the devil” would send people, or have them call and ask a question, or how someone will need to be visited. How the devil will use people in many ways to “distract” a preacher when he sits down to study his sermon and how “hard it was when the devil attacks like that.” Waaah waaaah waaaah.
Yes, dealing with people gets old but, bless your heart, that is your ministry as a pastor.
Could one of you Southern ladies kindly explain to an injun originally from Wisconsin what the expression “bless yer’ heart” means? I’ve heard various takes; that it can mean anything from a heartfelt affirmation, to a verbal jab at an opponent you’re exasperated with.
I await with bated breath for clarification.
A teacher is successful when their student can go and do for themselves and others. Hyper authoritarian pastors might not want those they are “teaching” to be able to go and do. On YouTube, bring up Steve Taylor “I want to be a clone”… Please give feedback if you have ever had that kind of experience!!
Ken F wrote:
True. They can also be given dishonorable discharges, or even tried and convicted – not happening in Rainer’s world!
I have always embraced Paul’s proper perspective of his leadership and his view of being judged…
This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
Todd Wilhelm wrote:
Amen! The role of pastor is to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry, to work together to fulfill the Great Commission given to ALL believers. Who’s job is the ministry? Every believer has a part. Regardless of what the New Calvinists teach, the Body of Christ is comprised of a priesthood of believers who are to be individually and corporately engaged in the Great Commission. In ministries which really get this, the pew ain’t got time or reason to talk about the pulpit!
Muff Potter wrote:
First, take a deep breath. The answer is all of the above. You need to know who is saying and why they are saying it. It is a great expression because it leaves one with plausible deniability.
So, with Muff, if I were to say “Bless your heart” it would be an expression of love and respect.
Something Rich Buhler said on the radio in the Eighties, about this Rabbi from Nazareth:
“Jews with a hunger for God would seek out the Rabbis whose reputation was Godly — the Pharisees. After which they’d go ‘If that’s what God is like, I want no part of it’. Then Jesus would seek them out and show them what God is REALLY like.”
I hear you, I really really do. But I buried my 33 year old brother today and my husband the pastor missed his last birthday because of a circumstance with a congregant. That is hard. please do not belittle the very real work of the men and women who work and walk and give of themselves to serve the people in their congregations. Point out spiritual abuse, please. But could you be kind, too? P.s. I have no doubt this guy is a meanie.
Christiane wrote:
And that God has a track record of doing the unexpected.
@ John:
I would love to get you take on this passage. What mysteries do today’s pastors have knowledge of that I, as a studier of the Bible, could not have?
“I know that pastors are not above criticism. And sometimes the critic can be well-intentioned. But things are way out of balance now. Pastors are getting beat up daily for some of the most insignificant matters. Many are unable to lead because they fear the latest round of attacks. And it seems like the advent of Internet, text messaging, and the social media has accelerated the attacks.”
So, all criticism is bad? Is it all “insignificant matters?” What if someone is truly and honestly sharing criticism to build up a pastor? Are all of these folks essentially Satan’s pawns to disrupt the Gospel(TM)?
This post just makes me wonder about him personally. Is his identity so insecure that he bases it upon how many nice comments he gets and how few critical emails he receives? I would suggest a pastor so paralyzed by criticism has a deeper issue than experiencing some criticism–namely, idolatry. He or she fearing of “man” over fearing God (Proverbs 29:25).
@ Kris:
We have written posts on good pastors like Pete Briscoe and Wade Burleson.
Actually the focus of Rainer’s post were all the awful church members who criticize pastors. This is on top of the post that Tim Challies who said that church members were the cause of all disunity.
dee wrote:
Dee, if John doesn’t get back to you on that, I have the right answer to your question.
I fear a cage wrote:
Reminds me of Creflo Dollar saying the devil was trying to keep him from getting enough donations to buy a new jumbo jet.
@ dee:
Sorry, I was trying to reply to a few people who where pretty harsh. I must not have hit the correct button. I apologize.
The mysteries was the truths of the Gospel and they are for everyone. No pastor today has truth that is withheld from a congregant. It all begins with a pastor having a proper perspective of himself. That is key. He must understand he is no more than a servant (underrower) and a steward, who declares the words of God. This is a strong passage against abusive authority. Paul ha a right perspective toward himself and his critics. He commits himself to the eventual judgment of God who will properly discern all matters of the heart. In my pastorate I so often took things personal. In reality, I am a servant and a steward only with the privilege of teaching the truths of God. in.@ dee:
Divorce Minister wrote:
I am quite positive that in the SBC world the pastor is to be viewed as the RULER. Why would a RULER ever have to deal with criticism? Gee I think it is part of his or her calling.
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Do you not know, the anointed are above reproach! Theirs is a high and lonely road. Sigh….
Kris wrote:
I’m so sorry for your loss. 33 is very young. I can only imagine how hard that was.
siteseer wrote:
I suppose the vast majority still don’t know the truth. Apparently Wilson feels unable to either confirm or deny rumors, so his social media have gone to a “test pattern”. Followers must be confused! Now for SOME, at least, and perhaps many, the truth will make no impact upon their admiration– only proving he’s broken and imperfect and therefore more useful as a god-glorifying leader than those nasty critical critics.
Lydia wrote:
That’s it in a nutshell. On a side note. I’ve come to dislike that word “unregenerate” and “regenerate” as well. At least how the Calvinistas use it. The same when they use the word “gospel” and “biblical” which has a uniquely different meaning than in non-Calvinist circles.
Lydia wrote:
Pastoring is hard work with all the difficult sheep to discipline, and all the conferences to attend and books to write and blogs to blog and sermons to write. Body aching, sweat dripping, grueling work.
@ Kris:
I am so sorry about your brother. One of the things that has puzzled me since the explosion of social media and the obvious problems concerning so many pastors, their own authoritarian articles and blogs like this one discussing spiritual abuse– is why more decent hardworking pastors don’t respond concerning the bad ones.
I am sure there are many good reasons but there IS a void. There has long been a void. My former pastor was not controlling at all but at least he gave warnings about Piper, Mohler and others when their behavior/doctrines came up– in a gracious way. He was not as gracious about CJ Mahaney though. He was appalled.
He was the gentleman scholar type but very concerned about the direction things were going. It would never have occurred to him to make merchandise of the Gospel and he saw the handwriting on the wall concerning the SBC years ago but it was a tsunami in the SBC. All this in the midst of SBTS sending rabid and ungracious YRR Seminary students to join and influence youth. It was a constant problem.
At least he spoke up with his equal friends in what made up our former church until he left. Few woukd dare to do so back then.
@ Darlene:
I have a British blog friend who did a ton of research on that word as used in Scripture and has tried to explain, in detail, to the blogging YRR how they not only misuse it but over exaggerate it’s definition.
I am with
I fear a cage wrote:
You have got to be kidding! As if writing a sermon is the most spiritual and godly thing a pastor can do. Let’s. Get. Real.
Muff Potter wrote:
Correct.
Lydia wrote:
Lydia, that would be interesting to read.
Lydia wrote:
I have been reading too many stories about bad pastors – the %’s on adultery alone are pretty bad. I do know there are good ones. I would like to see them speak up, but i think they would be lost in the din. They don’t have the numbers, they don’t have the social media platform, they’re plugging away in their local church and trying to help. I applaud that. But I hope they aren’t listening to the ones with the platforms. All these conferences make me very skeptical, because that one conference was all pastors! And they applaud and genuflect and embrace.
[Here is a good question, are there ANY good pastors who do have the numbers? And the guts to speak out? ]
Kris, I am so sorry about your brother.
Darlene wrote:
I share your lack of enthusiasm. One, they are clunky, unappealing words. Nothing like saying someone is ‘saved’ which sounds much more like good news.
Two, there is an arrogance in the implication that these guys have CLUE ONE who is saved or not. They are clearly pretty terrible at discernment.
Darlene wrote:
Apparently writing an awesome sermon IS the main work of a pastor. *eye roll*
I have posted an update on my status on the open discussion thread. Thank you all so much for your help.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/open-discussion-page/comment-page-10/#comment-293635
http://www.gofundme.com/ljahelp
@ Lea:
I think Nate Pyle is cool. He has got a blog going and his recent book was awesome. I love to listen to Ray Vanderlaan – his love of scripture is awe inspiring.
But us ‘orthodox’ reformed people might be to close to Calvin for all you folks who don’t like the YRR crowd. 😉
And thank you.
@ Lydia
I think it depends on what circles you run in. I only started reading this blog because a dear friend’s husband was almost broken by the Gothard/quiverfull thing and I needed to read more about it. I had no clue.
My husband’s seminary made you take a gamut of psychological tests and attend classes for two years before they were declare you ‘fit’ for candidacy. Grudum’s systamatic would never be considered as a textbook.
Not to say problems do not happen in our denominations, because we are all so broken, but many of these people discussed here I had to Google to find out who they were. For real.
Lea wrote:
I believe the only One who really DOES know is God. St. Matthew tells us that many will come to Christ on the day of judgment saying ‘Lord, Lord’, thinking they are ‘saved’. But it will not be so.
‘arrogance’, ‘smugness’, ….. like the Pharisee in the temple who also thought he could judge the Publican as unfit before God compared to himself.
He thought he was ‘approved’ of God. But it was not so.
I suppose the Publican got it right. He was not smug nor arrogant, but lowered his eyes and prayed the ancient sinner’s prayer that brought God’s approval on him:
‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
The early Christians picked this from scripture and adapted it to their first sinners’ prayer:
‘Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior, have mercy on us.’
That sinner’s prayer …. the letters in Greek made the word ‘fish’, which then became a symbol of the trust these early Christians had in Jesus Christ.
The ‘fish’ symbol still represents the ancient sinner’s prayer. 🙂
Kris wrote:
Excellent, I am aware many do not conduct such testing. I’m glad if some are now trying to weed out the NPDs and other psychopaths that are attracted to the pastorate.
@ Bill M:
Our Lord Himself bore great criticism during the time He was among us,
so I’m puzzled why these young pastors feel that being criticized is something that is beneath them?
Someone has failed them in their preparation to serve in the ministry.
Instead of an insulted complaining pastor, the flock a young minister serves are in need of a calm presence in their midst:
the truth is that someone who carries within themselves ‘the peace of Christ’ has a better chance of bringing calm into the lives of people who are agitated and upset. These pastors ‘listen’. Sometimes they just sit quietly with people in trouble, just being WITH them.
People look to their pastors for comfort in times of trouble. If the young ‘pastor’ cannot be bothered, perhaps he needs some time out, in view of a crucifix, to sort out why he feels as he does. He may be also in need of real help.
GMFS
Comment 1 of 2: Pastors who care
The question has been raised: Where are the decent, honest, caring pastors who truly are serving those in their congregations?
The answer is: they are caring for and serving those in their congregations.
It’s just part of the nature of the job that, when it’s done well, it’s done invisibly. You aren’t going to find these people on social media and you’ll rarely find them on conference stages or marketing their books. If their story is to be told, it’s likely to be told by us.
I’ve often told the story of the minister hereabouts (I know him personally) who, after conducting a funeral service, sat with a grieving widow and drank a bottle of whisky with her because she was going to drink it one way or another and he felt that, whatever she did, she shouldn’t do it alone. He worked, incidentally, long hours as a window-cleaner to support himself and his wife while also pastoring the church.
Kris is right, of course: there are pastors who have it tough, not least because of the people in the congregations around them. These pastors don’t rule the church and aren’t propped up by a puppet-board of yes-men they themselves have picked. It can happen that, in fact, the roost is ruled by a shadow-leadership of influential string-pullers in the congregation who have no official title at all, and therefore no responsibility, and therefore no accountability, and therefore complete freedom to compel the church to serve them first. Wolves in sheep’s clothing don’t always seek out the pulpit.
Comment 2 of 2: “members” who don’t count as “disciples”
There are several astute comments above to the effect that Bob and Betty’s complaining is not distracting the pastor from “making disciples” because his job his discipling Bob and Betty.
Consider the scenario: Last year, Bob and/or Betty came forward at an altar call and were chalked up as one/two of the many souls being saved through the pastor’s community-transforming Gospel™ Ministry. A year on now, when they haven’t become perfect, quiet, respectably compliant church members agreeing with the pastor on everything, they’re a “distraction”. Because when somebody answers one of my altar-calls, the power of my Gospel™ Ministry transforms them instantly and completely, right? The point at which it all looks good, when the numbers are being chalked up and the boxes ticked, is the point where my Ministry gets to be evaluated. I get the commission on the sales. The actual costs – well, they’re somebody else’s problem.
It’s a bit of an Enron, really.
‘morning NICK,
great story about that pastor …. I guess he’s not ‘successful’ by neo-Cal standards: no mcMansion, peanuts for a salary, actually being forced to spend time with a grieving person ….
no, I don’t think the famous neo-Cal boys would be impressed …. by their $trange reckoning, they would likely take him for a failure
But I don’t think they would be looking at the right markers for pastoral success. I don’t even know if they realize what they are. (sigh)
Muff Potter wrote:
As a lifelong southerner who has lived in three different ‘southern’ subcultures let me see if I can help by saying what seems to be consistent with the three areas that I have experienced. ‘Bless your heart’ would be said to the person, to their face, and it would not be apt to be negative or derogatory unless the circumstances were really bad in which case the negative verbal assault of ‘bless your heart’ would be apparent. If said to your face it is more than likely to be a gesture of concern and support.
‘Bless his/her heart’ said not in the presence of whoever his/her is has to be understood/interpreted by the context since it could be either sympathy or sarcasm.
It is all in the context. When I tried unsuccessfully to learn a little Mandarin the native speaker kept telling us about the impact of context on the meaning. That was when I knew I would never ‘get it’ about some tonal language–too many variables. Even so with ‘bless….’ this or that in southernese- too many variables.
@ Muff Potter:
I think I can help you with that. Please check back later. We are going to be out the door to vote any minute, among other things right now.
@ Kris:
That’s great! Again, I wish we heard more from those types pointing out problems with controlling authoritarian pastors.
It seems to me that being docile and being a disciple are mutually exclusive. Which one does The Good Shepherd call and equip us to be, regardless of what overlording undershepherds demand?
brad/futuristguy wrote:
for some, to be conformed to the image of Christ, is to be called to die.
“Bonhoeffer on the Incarnation:
“” We now know that we have been taken up and borne in the humanity of Jesus, and therefore that new nature we now enjoy means that we too must bear the sins and sorrows of others. The incarnate lord makes his followers the brothers and sisters of all humanity. The “philanthropy” of God (Titus 3:4) revealed in the Incarnation is the ground of Christian love toward all on earth that bear the name of human. The form of Christ incarnate makes the Church into the body of Christ. All the sorrows of humanity falls upon that form, and only through that form can they be borne. The earthly form of Christ is the form that died on the cross. The image of God is the image of Christ crucified. It is to this image that the life of the disciples must be conformed: in other words, they must be conformed to his death (Phil. 3:10; Rom. 6:4). The Christian life is a life of crucifixion.”
(Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Christian martyr)
Kris wrote:
The Southern Baptist seminaries do nothing regarding testing and do not seem to care one bit how fit you are for ministry. I knew several people who did fairly egregious things while in seminary who were praised by leadership at SEBTS. Example: a guy I knew was somewhat legendary for rating all the women on campus, and he shared those ratings not just with guys, but with the women as well. There were professors who knew about it, and he remained and graduated and probably went on to working in a church.
After I left, there was a student convicted of sexual assault, whom the leadership (Danny Akin) immediately announced was “forgiven”: http://www.sebts.edu/mobile/headlines/articles/Spring2012_Birch.aspx
@ Christiane:
You have brought up a point that we all might sometimes discuss on the OP page; how does one determine who is and who is not a christian martyr, and the difference of opinion as to whether Bonhoeffer should be called a martyr is a good place to start. Metaxis’ book comes down on the martyr side, but the opposite opinion is that he was executed because of his political actions and therefore he was not actually a martyr for the faith. The reason behind the quibble, I believe, ties into what a christian should or should not do in times of war or political uprising and such, and whether loss of life in the process is actually martyrdom. I expect to see this cussed and discussed more as the world again enters a period of turmoil.
Personally, I think we can call him a martyr, but I do see that there can be a thin edge on that call. Without doubt he was heroic. And I totally recommend Metaxis’ book for an interesting and easy read.
ION
Those of you who follow current affairs closely will be aware that there is an election today in the US.
The link between state politics and the various factions and fragments of the visible church is a complex and, of course, an inevitable one – after all, both are comprised of people. The same people in many cases. For instance, I voted in the Brexit referendum, the Scottish Independence referendum and have voted in many other more routine (though still important) elections, AND I’m a member of the Church. There’s no doubt that the church/state link works very differently in the US, though, than it does here in Blighty.
Regardless of who wins, there will be a range of reactions from parachurch organisations. I await this with what, for want of a better word, I will call “interest”.
Meanwhile, our thoughts and prayers are with all those Wartburgers who will be voting today.
Muff Potter wrote:
I am not a southerner, nor a woman, but was raised by them and lived among them! “Bless your heart” is a shortened version of the ultimate put down phrased as a wish for health (spiritual or mental). The original is “Bless your little heart.” As in, “child, you’all need serious spiritual (or mental) growing up! And I have pity on you’all, cause you’all are not a big-hearted person like moi!”
“
siteseer wrote:
Kris: I too am sorry for your loss.
Kris wrote:
I actually joined a reformed church. It’s just a nice squishy liberal one that ordains women.
On the bright side. A small candle in this darkness. I voted just now. Usually I vote but feel ‘so what’ just one vote among so many. But today I actually felt, maybe for the first time in my life, that my vote was worth something because (drum roll) North Carolina is slap divided down the middle on president, governor and senator so this year it is actually accurate to say that every vote counts. And we have a fair passel of electoral votes so it makes it a little exciting, I guess if one is desperate for excitement.
We will be just as divided after the election as we are now. In my town nobody put up political signs for president or governor and almost none for senator in their yards. Usually we are awash in signs for the major candidates for the really big offices. Not this year. We noticed it and then a local news outlet wrote about it. Where are all the signs? We are all keeping a low profile; both sides of the contests are keeping a low profile. I hope this means we intend to continue to do that and just carry on beginning tomorrow morning.
And I did not vote for the winner, whoever that may be. That is my story and I am sticking to it. I reserve the right to claim utter innocence of any untoward outcomes from here on.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Thanks, NICK
We were in line by 5:30 and there WAS already quite a line (outside in the cold). Later, I drove down to a McD’s to get breakfast and passed several voting places …. also VERY long lines
very exciting day, glad it’s almost OVER, am very proud of everyone who is coming out to vote as it’s
ishy wrote:
Awful. Where do people like Akin get off thinking they have any right to forgive when they have not been wronged??? And I’m sure the victims forgiveness was coerced. And they give a sermon about how we are all sinners and none of us is perfect at such a time? Gross.
okrapod wrote:
no signs around here either …. I think people are afraid …. fearful that their property will be damaged ….. feelings are running very high and we are all very stressed out by it
@ Christiane:
We otoh will have no lines, because literally almost half the state early votes!
Thanks to nick.
Lea wrote:
Others (like SBC Voices) reported a bit later that the victim hadn’t shown as much reconciliation, but for Southeastern to announce immediately that it was already done and forgiven the way that they did is deeply troubling.
Now, the person arrested has sworn not to be in ministry, went into (hopefully not nouthetic) counseling, and left the SBC last I heard, but this was his own decision and didn’t come from the powers that be. I think if any man involved in an assault case toed the Calvinista line, they would have put him right into a church without telling the congregation.
You knowLea wrote:
You know, I just realized that the Calvinista leaders have to preach sermons like this, because they probably have to keep telling themselves that everyone else is worse than they are.
However, I can say before God that I have never sexually assaulted anyone, I have never manipulated church finances to give myself more money, and I have never believed that I deserved to keep a leadership position after abusing those under that position. So, I have to admit, I expect leaders not to do those things.
Lea wrote:
It is beyond sick what these “leaders” do to the name of Christ.
Trying to wrap my head around the role of “pastoring”. What does it mean? Who decides what a pastor should do? Is it the same as an elder? My old pastor was a self proclaimed “teacher” and couldn’t bother to shepherd (whatever that means). He told the congregation that it was their jobs to come to the aid of their fellow members and not to concern him. It all seems so…self-appointed and self-described.
Lea wrote:
And never mind the victim. The victim is completely irrelevant. It’s all about forgiving the criminal.
Perhaps this is connected to the extreme emphasis on sermons that you tend to hear from Neo-Reformed thought leaders. (There was a post on TGC a few months ago that asked “How do you know your pastor loves you?” The answer was “If he preaches correct doctrine”. )
My intent here is not to diminish the importance of the sermon in a worship gathering, but it seems to be stressed as being vastly more important than all other activities that a pastor might be called upon to do. In this environment, it’s not that surprising that a pastor would view the complaints of his congregants as a nuisance, rather than an opportunity to minister.
Nancy2 wrote:
Yes. A church that cared would maybe do a sermon about dealing with trauma, or overcoming, or how God comforts the righteous. Instead their focus is all on the evil man. I did notice they said they would provide counseling for both of them, but if I had been the victim I might have to request a real counselor.
Toiler wrote:
Presbyterians have a ‘teaching’ elder role. I’m not great with the polity yet, but I think the session actually runs everything, not the pastor.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thanks Nick! My friend from Finland already messaged me this a.m. wondering why Americans are going so crazy.
Edward wrote:
Yeah, this is why I think the Calvinistas have been so effective in the SBC. Southern Baptists have always put too much emphasis on the sermon in worship, and the place of the pastor as the center of worship. Since Baptists have traditionally rebelled against more mainline orders of worship, all they think they have left is a sermon and a few hymns.
One problem I know from experience is that very few of them are actually preaching much from the Bible, so I just roll my eyes when they talk about “preaching doctrine”. They may spend two minutes on the Bible, and thirty on their personal experiences or lecturing the congregation on how to behave. They definitely indoctrinate, but it’s not the Bible they are teaching.
@ Kris:
You sound like an awesome person and you’re welcome here. Diversity is a good thing, along with civility. But so sorry for your loss.
ishy wrote:
This is one of the reasons I could never settle on a church. I got SO tired of hearing cutesy stories about people’s kids and person stuff. Write a newsletter, if that’s all you want to talk about.
Edward wrote:
Cute. And how do you know that his doctrine is correct? Because he says it is.
At my house I sometimes get beside myself on a rant about why can’t or don’t people think. Just think. Is that too much to ask? Do they not care or do they not know how? At that point ResidentEducator always says the same thing: ‘Listen closely, mama, and I will explain it to you one.more.time but we are not going through this again.’
Maybe it is something in the water. Maybe they have poisoned the food. Maybe they are beaming anti-think beams from satellites. Don’t laugh, this is no worse than seeing demons behind every rock. Have we always been like this? Did I just miss this entirely, this no-thinking-allowed commandment somewhere in scripture perhaps?
@ ishy:
I should mentioned, this is as much a problem in non-denominational churches as well. They seem to have a similar structure, just dropping the don’t drink/don’t dance stuff and a few other old school Baptist things.
The last sermon I went to at gateway was about marriage, spent a little time talking about how the guy was a terrible husband (which might have been code for abusive) before and became better, and then telling weird stories from islands in the pacific about marriage. In an hour, there might have been a bible verse or two thrown in.
Edward wrote:
There’s a reason why the Oxford Movement caught on quickly in places like Australia. People had just gotten burned out by all the Calvinist pulpiteering (which had previously dominated Anglicanism there); when new Anglican churches appeared that placed the Eucharist rather than the sermon at the center, it was like a breath of fresh air for the “dones”.
Another thing about the Oxford movement was that it was closely tied to social activism. Tractarian priests often operated in the slums and generally had more of a social conscience than “establishment” Anglicans did.
The Tractarians were pretty much the opposite of the neo-Cals. Maybe we need a neo-Tractarian movement.
@ ishy:
That is awful and has no place in the people of God. I have so little contact with the Southern Baptists that you name dropped and I had to do another google search.
Perhaps the very nature of the creation of the Southern Baptists and those like them have contributed to this problem? They have come about because of a lot of heated church splits. Food for thought?
@ okrapod:
I would like to know what the resident educator says. :o)
@ okrapod:
So there are special Saints and special Martyrs?
@ Christiane:
It’s already happened here. And cars vandalized.
@ Lea:
Ooo! Which one? Our denomination ordains women and so does our sister denomation.
@ Kris:
PCUSA. It took a lot to get me to switch because I have no presby background, and I’m not really reformed, but I’m at peace with it. I don’t think anybody there cares if I agree or not! And we have good ministers and sunday school and fantastic music.
Toiler wrote:
God calls various offices into the church, including pastors and teachers to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry (Ephesians 4). Not every pastor who is called into that position has a gift of teaching; not every teacher has a calling of pastor on their lives. But every pastor who calls himself that has a responsibility to shepherd the flock! Your old pastor was not a true shepherd called by God if he said he couldn’t bother with that role.
Toiler wrote:
God does when he calls someone as a pastor. When God calls, He equips and imparts wisdom by the Holy Spirit into that office; the pastor knows what to do by the Spirit.
It’s when Calvinists start talking about enforcing more stringent membership guidelines that I really start to worry. Pretty sure that Simon the Tax Collector and the woman at the well wouldn’t make their cut. Thank God for Jesus and life-giving grace.
Kris wrote:
Not sure I understand what you are saying about Baptists, but John Frame seems to think that it is a problem among the P&R as well. The difference may be that Baptists split to form different local churches while the P&R split to form different denominations. That seems reasonable to me, since one of the distinctives (or former distinctives) of Baptists is local church autonomy while one of the distinctives of the P&R is connection and lines of authority within denominations with limited autonomy for a local church.
I am very sorry for the loss of your brother and all that entails for your family. I also agree with you that the hard-working pastors should be recognized for their hard work, along with their families. The YRR are not known to be particularly concerned about the pewpeons except as giving units. That I say from sad experience, though I also know of one or two exceptions. I’m still trying to figure out how those couple of exceptions manage to teach what they teach knowing what they know.
@ Lydia:
It is all a very interesting discussion, actually. In the case of Bonhoeffer he said basically that he was shamed by his sister in law for not joining the struggle against der Fuehrer since some the rest of his family had so. When he finally did get involved he was part of what the French anyhow would have called the resistance. He used his ability to cross the border into Switzerland to get some things accomplished. He was executed for this resistance activity. So the issue was did he die for God or for Germany, and does it matter. Now, he was a well known German Lutheran theologian and did come from an affluent and ‘connected’ family so how much that had to do with anything I do not know. When Metaxis’ book came out there were some objections to his use of the term martyr.
But IIRC the issue of who is a martyr came up not too long ago when some agency was apparently calling everybody a martyr if they happened to die under difficult circumstances and using that to collect money based on the enormous number of martyrs they claimed. I can’t recall any more specific details, but if that is the case then, yes, what indeed is a martyr would be significant.
@ Muff Potter:
It depends. If someone does something very kind to me, I might say “Bless your heart, you shouldn’t have done that.” Or alternatively, “You didn’t need to do that.” Which means (assuming my sincerity) that I am deeply appreciative.
However, when I talk about Owen BHLH, I am saying that Owen is being Owen, and he just can’t help being Owen and will probably never stop being Owen because he does not have the first clue that he is being ridiculous. I have some people who do me the favor of telling me I’m being ridiculous when I’m ridiculous, but Owen apparently does not have that.
okrapod wrote:
Actually, the commandment is not in scripture but it is a subtle message that “should be disciples” hear as they sit, week after week, listening to and mulling over the message they hear. The pastor is the one who knows the correct, therefore listen to pastor, because that is what pastor tells you to do. It is conveniently circular.
Kris wrote:
Kris – I’m so sorry about your brother. *HUGS* We all need grace and understanding – and there are many pastors who put themselves on the line and serve in sacrificial ways that we never understand. Thanks for the reminder.
Darlene wrote:
“Ours is a High and Lonely Destiny, Digory.”
— Chronicles of Narnia: The Magician’s Nephew
Jean wrote:
So true. I don’t think that the neo-Cals would allow God the room to work in their lives either, from what I have seen.
Jean wrote:
Pretty sure only the Anointed ManaGAWD and his pet suck-ups would make the cut.
Bridget wrote:
Why would God need to work in their lives when He has already Predestined them as the Elect?
Why, when their Theology is Perfectly Parsed from CALVIN who had God All Figured Out?
Lea wrote:
What would God ever do on J-Day without Pastor Grima Wormtongue at His right hand to tell Him who is REALLY Saved and (more important) who’s NOT?
“ME SHEEP! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! …”
Bridget wrote:
Why do they believe it? We have in this nation an enormous distrust of the gov and the economy and the cops and advertising and the schools and the health care industry and the insurance company and car salesmen, and on and on. But we seem to have people sitting in churches just trusting in whatever the preacher says. I just don’t get it. We as a people do not seem to be like that until we go to church. Frankly, I think it is scary.
Darlene wrote:
If so, Hitler und Goebbels were the most spiritual and godly behind the pulpit at Nuremberg.
Bridget wrote:
Bridget, there is little to no evidence these neo-Cals have had a life changing experience with God. They are not Christ-like at all.
Kris wrote:
Sorry to hear about your brother. Like you, I had never heard of any of this (neo-cal, complementarianism, church covenants) and if I didn’t follow this blog, I would remain ignorant.
Therein lies the danger. In my brief evangelical experience (not reformed but pentecostal) a lot of the “odd stuff” is really played down in the Sunday service. You only see it after you’ve been there a while (ie missionaries who claim to raise the dead, or pastors who “see” angels – not dreams or visions but real live angels!) It’s almost like trying to draw you in until you’re fully invested or indoctrinated.
Anyway, I think a great practice that was brought up would be peruse a church’s library and website. If you see books/links by Piper or Dever or Mahaney or Acts29, 9Marks etc. run do not walk away.
Jack wrote:
I was the same (except Dever, because I used to go to his church). I think once you start looking for it, though, you notice the influence of this stuff everywhere in the more conservative/sbc/non-denom churches. Just start going to websites of local churches and you see stuff about church discipline and who gets to divorce and so on and so forth. So whether you know the names or not, the ideas are taking over.
Jack wrote:
The Inner Mysteries known only to the Inner Ring.
Like the Wall of Fire Engrams/R6 Bank Images/Galactic Emperor Xenu in Scientology.
From the OP:
Perhaps this was mentioned above by either Todd or Max but one of the foundational errors in the Neo Cal movement is the elevation of church planting to the become the only Biblical fulfillment of the Great Commission. It seems to me that if there is distraction going on (beyond the fact that the GC is for all Christians, not just ‘leaders’) it is primarily in that line of reasoning.
Burwell wrote:
I have begun to hate the entire concept of church planting.
I am a little bit addicted to popping over to the expastors site now to see all the wonderful things they say about themselves. This week, there is an article called ‘disqualified’ all about how somebody committed adultery, stepped out of ministry (for an extended period of time thankfully) and how everybody just kept encouraging him to come back. So. My question is, if there are so few ‘qualified’ people to lead churches that we have to run around after the disqualified ones begging them to come back, why on earth do we need more churches???
Also, if there really are so few qualified people, maybe they should consider opening it up to, gasp, women, instead of running around after people who have already been kicked out for moral failures. I know. Radical ideas!
@ Kris:
BTW, if you feel like it I would be curious to hear your take on this one:
http://www.expastors.com/an-anonymous-story-from-a-pastors-wife/
I never know how to feel about these things. I think it’s normal in some respects to gripe about ‘work’ and if you work for church, church = work. But then they start talking about how the church ‘like to run the show’ and should just ‘trust’ the pastors I start looking sideways (and from a site where fully half the contributors have gotten kicked out for various moral failures, it reads especially off).
Lea wrote:
Lea- I live in the DC metro area and wondered if you might be willing to
Talk with me about your experience at CHBC. If Yes, maybe Dee or Deb could help connect us.
@ okrapod:
Thanks for taking the Time to explain. I am not familiar with such a formal process and controversy surrounding such things.
DMZ wrote:
It was really a long time ago so I’m not sure how helpful it would be! I think things have changed so much, but I would be happy to answer questions. My answers probably wouldn’t be very helpful, as I was not heavily involved. I mostly just attended. It’s probably the only church I attended for a while where I didn’t know people on staff/deacons/etc and have all the inside gossip.
okrapod wrote:
the word ‘martyr’ originally meant ‘witness’
I am aware of the controversy surrounding Bonhoeffer, but descriptions of his prayer life in captivity prior to his execution, and also the calm manner with which he approached his frankly horrific hanging (with piano wire, naked) …. these descriptions were recorded by a physician who witnessed the death …. I would call Bonhoeffer a Christian witness/martyr yes, but I do understand why some question it …. I would just say that the evil nature of Nazism was opposed by many, many people who were rounded up and put into concentration camps and died there …. an example: the good father of Corrie ten Boom, and her sister Betsie …. they died slow deaths in the camps because they had reached out to help save Jews. I would say if we don’t want to call them ‘martyrs’, then let us at least call them ‘among The Righteous’, as the people of Israel commemorate those who were self-sacrificial in their efforts to save Jews from the Holocaust. Israel honors their memory on ‘The Avenue of the Righteous’.
Edward wrote:
It’s interesting you mentioned that because we recently had this discussion on another thread and that the NeoCals have made an idol of the Bible, thus the long sermons. At my former NeoCalvinist/9 Marxist/John MacArthur-ite church the senior pastor’s sermons were a whopping 1 hour and 45 minutes, and a “short” sermon was 90 minutes.
A (woman) pastor from another denomination commented on Twitter that her seminary professor failed them if they gave anything longer than a 10-minute sermon.
@ Christiane:
The reason that I think he should be called a martyr while at the same time wondering about that, is because of what Metaxis said about the German Lutheran clergy even including those in the Confessing Lutheran movement, that they chose Germany and did not get involved in the resistance. They went to the military as soldiers of The Reich and mostly died on the Eastern Front, or so they say. I think his heroism is shown in his willingness to stand against the conformity of his own religious peers and do the right thing. That, I think, is heroism which needs recognized by the church at large, and it is encouraging that the church does that.
And BTW I think the heroism of JP II can be seen in his years in going to a secret seminary in occupied Poland as a young man, long before the world took notice of him. And he, too, was faithful unto death, which I think is the biblical issue at stake.
There is another way to do church. Here in the oil patch we call it tail-gate church, as it takes place at a pickup truck tail-gate. The ranchers call it church at the wagon–even have a song about it. Military friends call it foxhole church. My rez friends call it Hogan prayer meeting.
Simply put a few folks gather with no leader. Everybody brings something: reading a short passage of scripture, or a prayer request or leads a prayer, or brings a song or requests the group sing a specific song. Sometimes we just share what has happened in our lives, and how we experienced God lately. Sometimes each does all of that.
And then we are done. Maybe we’ll eat or share a cup of coffee. God, not the pastor or preacher, has spoken. We have corporately sang and prayed. We do support evangelists as well as personal evangelism, but not the idea of one man’s ideas given as “thus sayeth the Lord” every week.
Those anointed by the Lord for various ministries? It will show. If your gift is pastoring you just can’t stay home when someone is hurting. If it is “preaching” you just can’t seem to stop leading others to faith in Christ. If it is administering you just can’t seem to stop quietly getting things done and problems and logistics solved.
Works great. No overhead. No cost. No rulers. No status.
Just His kids gathering as family. But the group is almost never the exact same folks twice.
@ Velour:
Somebody said about lengthly sermons that the mind can only absorb what the butt can endure.
Former CLCer wrote:
Yes, and additionally, that reference in the Bible is written to several different types of people within a fellowship, five different types, pastors are nothing special in that list, the fourth of five. That is, by the way, the only place that the word “pastor” shows up in the singular in the entire New Testament.
How did we get to this point where pastor has come to mean:
– Primary leader & Chief Executive Officer
– Main decision-maker
– Head of the board of elders
– Main tool for glorifying God
– Paid professinal
– The one who gets the spotlight and platform each Sunday morning and Wednesday night
– The one whom we’re told not to touch, because they are the Lord’s anointed
– The one who gets to whine that they have to tend to the needs of other members of the fellowship, which distracts them from more important God glorifying work
– The one about whom people say in particular “I just LOVE my pastor!”
– The one who gets their name on the church sign
– The one who gets the book deals
– The one who gets blogs set up in their honor so they can be stroked by people like Thom (who in turn, of course, has a huge offering of services to them, which will be purchased by those who like to dub themselves “pastors”, and paid out of the general church funds, which come from the offerings of those who are having their gifts and callings stifled by that very Thom Rainier–quite a racket, spiritual fraud at its worst.
How we got to this point is not a mystery to me. It comes from arrogant, smug people, some of them full scale haters of Jesus, who want it all for themselves and just don’t want to share the glory with God. It comes from people who don’t much care what the Bible has to say about anything, except for a handful of versus that they invariably twist to serve themselves. It comes from people who don’t want to follow Jesus, they want a man, a king, to lead them. In some cases it even comes from those who specialize in leading the little ones astray–the very ones whom Jesus said ought to be tossed into the sea with a millstone.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
“si comprehendis, non est Deus”
Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
Two of my children are students at the uni where I teach; of course, not everyone knows who they are. You should hear the talk about me they report in the hallways “That mother blanker…He must have brain damage…etc, etc.” By the way, those are direct quotes, my oldest overheard the “brain damage” comment just yesterday.
You have to have a thick skin, people will say all kinds of things, and they’ll come into your office and whine and complain and roll their eyes and sometimes you’ll get calls from parents (amazing, at a university!) and other times you’ll get the nastiest emails, telling you how rude and uncaring you are, what a jerk, they’re going to go to the judicial council and complain because you refuse to curve their grade, etc. etc.
Used to practice law, you can imagine what that was like, been in shouting matches that halted depositions, seen lawyers do some downright vile, dirty things to my clients. Used to work B2B sales, been told “You’re like a bad cold, I just can’t get rid of you”, “Leave now”, had a prospective customer fold his thick arms and drop the F-bomb on me once. Been lied about, cheated out of deals by competitors who were willing to tell any lie to snipe my business. So what? Life’s not easy, you can’t demand that people treat you like a Ming vase. Jesus sure didn’t.
The treatment that most pastors get by comparison is like a pampered lap cat with old lady stroking them.
Toiler wrote:
My husband’s denomination defines a pastor’s duties as: preaching on the
Lord’s Day; attending to catechetical instruction, family visiting, and calling on the sick; and all things that
pertain to the work of a faithful and diligent servant of the Lord, all these in accord with the Word of God.
Burwell wrote:
Since the NeoCalvinists smugly claim to be among “God’s Elect”, chosen from before the beginning of time, they have no need for the Great Commission described in the Scriptures.
Speaking of an apocalypse of criticism against celebrity “Christian” leaders, our old friend Greg Atkinson of ex-Pastors.com is back leveling more criticism at us. Feel free to leave your comments, they have not been blocked yet nor do they appear to be actively deleting them… yet: http://www.churchcentral.com/blogs/showing-grace-when-a-pastor-needs-it-most/
I already left mine.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
A misrepresentation of Calvin who said “For how can the human mind measure off the measureless essence of God according to its own little measure……Indeed how can the mind by its own leading come to search out God’s essence when it cannot even get to its own? Let us then willingly leave to God the knowledge of himself. For, as Hilary says, he is the one fit witness to himself, and is not known except through himself” (Institutes 1.XIII.21)
Lea wrote:
You know, I know exactly what she is talking about. We were called to a small church in a small town and the people couldn’t wait to see what having a young pastor would do to turn things around! Yay! Youth! Bring back the families that have left and the kids that no longer attend, because now our church is cool and hip and attractive.
So we tried to help them see things from our young perspective – how not having a website is really hard when you rely on google to get you to a job interview (or church service!), how having the nursery tucked far away in the basement so the kids don’t “disturb” the service is unattractive and distancing, how facebook can be used for good, how their process of choosing leadership (whoever draws the short straw is the treasurer!) reflects poorly on the management of the funds entrusted to the church. And every discussion is long and drawn out. Change is hard. I think people think that if they get the “right” pastor, and make THAT change, the rest will fall in line.
Make sense?
Law Prof wrote:
That is pretty much my take. I understand that tradition play
Lydia wrote:
That is pretty much my take and understand tradition plays a big part of how things are done. I don’t disparage that for people. I just don’t see the point of sermons week after week from the same person. Is that really the meaning of “pastor”? I just don’t view it as static.
I can’t help but wonder, though, why this is still the case when the ability to study on our own with such vast resources is at our fingertips.
Lowlandseer wrote:
Jesus Christ is the full representation of God and if we can’t know Him, what was the point of it all?
Kris wrote:
BWAH!! That’s pretty funny, actually.
Lea wrote:
Good Fruit is supposed to be a sort of long-term indicator but they can’t very well teach on that.
Velour wrote:
I am having a difficult time wrapping my head around this one. Please tell me there was at least one, if not more, intermissions. Only someone who loves to hear themselves speak and thinks they are far more intelligent than they actually are would speak for this long. When I was in seminary the generally accepted proper amount of time was 20 to 25 minutes, which I think is very reasonable (especially the 20 minute version). Nowadays Neo Cal preachers do seem to drone on for 45 minutes to an hour, which is ridiculous.
Burwell wrote:
This is that “expositional preaching” nonsense that he did.
There were a couple of hymns. But we were held hostage to this line-by-line style of preaching for a whopping 90 minutes or more.
Given that he had a fake Ph.D. and another fake advanced degree from an online diploma mill in Missouri ($299 for a Ph.D./Phony Degree), I think his sermons were also probably faked and borrowed from other sources. He was incapable of real scholarship.
@ Burwell:
No intermissions, either.
Jesus has been my pastor, teacher, preacher, and Good Shepherd for the last five years since my name was literally ripped off of our church mailbox (the perp was kind enough to leave my husband’s name there though (the sinful deaconess did it)), my name was eliminated from the congregational birthday list (they were kind enough to leave my husband’s name on the list though, he even received a religious birthday card from the pastor himself; he neglected to send me one though), and our wedding anniversary was eliminated from the church anniversary list (and yet the adulterers’ wedding anniversaries were still recognized publicly and honored within the congregation).
This being a ‘discipleship’ Baptist church, I have never experienced so much hatred in my entire church life, and I still can’t get an answer as too exactly what I did wrong?
Lydia: “Good fruit is supposed to be a long term indicator but they can’t very well teach on that.” Amen.
Follow the money trail in your church and you shall know who qualifies for “leadership.” Bleh!
Karen wrote:
I am very sorry, Karen.
That is not unusual. Very sadly. It’s bizarre how that works. People automatically think you had to have done something even more horrible the leaders are too gracious to mention. It is one ofthe most despicable tactics out there that the entire church ends up going along with.
People tend to believe titles. That was a big wake up call for me.
Burwell wrote:
I was on the leadership team of a neocalvinist church and one hour and 45 minutes was not unheard of. 90 minutes was about the norm.
…and the sermons were mind-numbing, full of contradictions, almost never referenced Jesus, almost never were delivered with any of the simple love of Christ.
Law Prof wrote:
Spot on, Law Prof. Spot on.
okrapod wrote:
I agree. It is scary. I think the reason they do it is imbedded in your response. Because of the mistrust they have in all the areas you mentioned, they believe that the pastor (church) is the one safe haven they can trust. It just isn’t true, unfortunately.
Lowlandseer wrote:
Calvin said so many things in the Institutes, I believe he misrepresents himself and God at times.
Oh, wow. Sounds like pastor whiny-pants needs a real job. He wouldn’t last two minutes doing what I do.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I’d give him about thirty seconds at my job (which includes a FEMALE boss).
Karen wrote:
You got Uppity.
And didn’t brown your nose enough on Pastor & Elders’ butts.
Burwell wrote:
Or deliberately imitating their beloved Massachusetts Puritans.
Does anyone know if Calvin was inspired to name his Institutes after emperor Justinian who codified Roman law in the 6th century and named it the Institutes?
@ Burwell:
No sermon needs to be longer than 35-40 min max. Another unfortunate trend that I noticed from the Macarthur/Master’s Seminary guys is taking years to make it through a book of the Bible. If you take a 3-point sermon on a single verse and stretch it over four weeks, everyone is going to get bored after a while.
@ linda:
Beautiful.
okrapod wrote:
Ha ha ha!
Edward wrote:
Our TMS grad pastor took four years to go through 1 Thessalonians. Talk about perseverance of the saints …
Edward wrote:
Yes, that are all copying John MacArthur. It’s ridiculous. There is so much more to life and to the Scriptures. It has become an idol for them. The living it out…well forget about it. (My ex-pastor in Silicon Valley, California, was a graduate of The Master’s Seminary. And I am deeply unimpressed by their graduates. Sub-par education and they all seem to make secondary issues – from Complementarianism/Patriarchy to Young Earth Creation – in to primary issues.)
As someone noted once before here, not even Jesus did expositional preaching (JMac/Mark Dever & Company style preaching).
Jenny wrote:
No way!! Four years?
Jenny wrote:
Four years of missed opportunities, in my opinion.
Look at all of the life issues that Jesus covered in His 3-year ministry and He never did expositional preaching.
Bridget wrote:
It only took him six years to go through the Gospel of Luke.
Velour wrote:
Bringing people into the kingdom mattered more to Him than doctrine perfectly parsed.
Two comments not approved. One political, one a repeat.
Jenny wrote:
Yes.
And the early church, before the canon of Scripture was put together, survived fine without expositional preaching the John MacArthur/Mark Dever style. And the early church survived fine without widespread literacy. And without the Guttenburg Press. They managed to carry The Gospel.
Jenny wrote:
1 Thessalonians and Luke ….. 10 years to go through 29 hapters …… 1189 chapters in the Bible……. That’s 410 years worth of preaching material for a TMS pastor. I don’t think he’ll live that long. I think it’s just a cop-out so they don’t have to study so much! Snort!
@ Velour:
I think it is a copy cat of Calvin and Edwards. I can’t remember the specifics but I remember reading years spent in one book at a time.
Lydia wrote:
Is that where it comes from? It’s ridiculous. They are so focused on a tree that they miss the Gospel forest.
Nancy2 wrote:
Imagine expositional preaching of the Book of Isaiah.
Lydia wrote:
“Criticisms[edit]
David Fitch, an editor of Leadership Journal, wrote three articles entitled The Myth of Expository Preaching & the Commodification of the Word part 1 part 2 part 3. Fitch, an evangelical, argues that an underlying assumption behind much expository preaching is an individualistic understanding of scripture and an over-reliance upon the expository preacher as the means by which God works in the church.
Simon Perry, another evangelical preacher, has warned that most forms of expository preaching place the authority of Scripture above that of the Christ to whom the Scripture witnesses. As such, he claims, expository preaching is inconsistent with the teachings of Scripture itself.[1]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expository_preaching
I never heard of Thom Rainer until I came across his awful article titled something like “x Reasons Why Your Pastor Should Not Visit Often” and his latest offering is along the same track. He strikes me as a mean-spirited man who does not show the love of Christ one would expect from someone in his position. He wants the luxury of sitting in an office reading Calvinista books all day whilst his church members fund his lifestyle. Meanwhile he gives nothing back to his members in return and bellyaches them as a distraction. That link that Lydia gave above left no doubt in my mind that Rainer is not fit to be a leader.
Velour wrote:
It’d take longer than Slacktivist’s page-by-page critique of Left Behind (all 22 volumes).
Velour wrote:
And without Kynge Jaymes Englyshe.
Edward wrote:
Purity of Ideology, Comrades.
Purity of Ideology.
Darlene wrote:
In the words of the prophet Alfred Yankovic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwvlbJ0h35A
Velour wrote:
Education does not produce one ounce of revelation. The lost world looked at the early church and “perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus” (Acts 4:13). The difference then, as it is now, is whether or not those in the church have been with Jesus … just going to church doesn’t cut it. Only those who have encountered the living Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit, who leads and teaches them Truth, is the real Church – the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
@ Max:
Hence the old jab at the Scholastics, that they were too busy asking “how many angels can fit on the head of a pin”. Or the so-called asinus-Christology (“could God have become incarnate as a donkey if He wanted”)?
ZechZav wrote:
Thank you for pointing out the article by Rainer on why pastors should not do a lot of pastoral visits. Because of the tone of the article, I wondered if it was a reaction to a criticism of Thom himself. It came across as cold, uncaring and almost…. atrogant.
@ MidwesternEasterner
I liken it to the criticism expressed by the American media this morning that uneducated white folks just elected them a new President.
MidwesternEasterner wrote:
Don’t remember the source of this reply, but it was in the early Middle Ages:
“Yes, God can change a cow into a tree, but has He ever done so? Bring evidence or stop speculating.”
Max wrote:
Above and beyond the usual “HOW! DARE! THEY!”?
Edward wrote:
My former Indy Fundy Church was like this. It took 2 years to get through acts on Sunday nights and close to 3 on revelations. All expository preaching. I hated it.
I fear a cage wrote:
That stuff is ridiculous.
@ I fear a cage:
We went through revelations in sunday school in about a month, I think.
Lea wrote:
My entire life I meet revelations wherever I go in churches. I’m sick of that book. I’ve heard it preached through probably half the time I’ve been in church
@ Jenny:
ETA It was 1 Timothy, not 1 Thes. Cleaning out the library and found some old sermon notes. Copious ones. Man, I was deep into that whole works righteousness thing.
I was so much older then. I’m younger than that now. 🙂
From the post: “Thom Rainer wrote The Great Distraction to the Great Commission. His basic thesis is that criticism of God glorifying pastors is on the rise and this must be stopped! Period!”
In contrast to the above book, another book – The Importance of Being Famous: Behind the Scenes of the Celebrity-Industrial Complex – by Maureen Orth. http://amzn.to/2g5YAVp
From Orth: “…the lives led in public, on camera, in the headlines, …the world of fame-bridging entertainment, politics, and news, … the lives of those who understand the chemistry, the very DNA, of fame and how to create it, manipulate it, sustain it, … the real world of the big room where the rules that govern mere mortals don’t matter – and anonymity is a crime.”
I fear a cage wrote:
I suspect some pastors try to read it and teach it without understanding ‘apocalyptic language’. In any case, it was the Book of Revelation that put my mind at rest about something very important to me:
my husband wishes to be cremated and buried at sea, as is his right as a retired naval man. So, I was upset over this, plus the fact that he would tease me about him becoming ‘fish food’. But then, I came across this passage from Revelation 20:13
” And the sea gave up the dead that were in it ”
So now, when he is ‘at sea’ some day hopefully far in the future, I can go to the ocean to visit his grave, knowing that at the word of Christ the Lord, the sea shall give up its dead. Peaceful, yes. 🙂
Christiane wrote:
The Navy Hymn:
Eternal Father, strong to save,
Whose arm hath bound the restless wave,
Who bidd’st the mighty ocean deep
Its own appointed limits keep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!
O Christ! Whose voice the waters heard
And hushed their raging at Thy word,
Who walkedst on the foaming deep,
And calm amidst its rage didst sleep;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!
Most Holy Spirit! Who didst brood
Upon the chaos dark and rude,
And bid its angry tumult cease,
And give, for wild confusion, peace;
Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee,
For those in peril on the sea!
O Trinity of love and power!
Our brethren shield in danger’s hour;
From rock and tempest, fire and foe,
Protect them wheresoe’er they go;
Thus evermore shall rise to Thee
Glad hymns of praise from land and sea.
@ Ken F:
I love this hymn. I did not know the latter verses to it. Thanks, KEN
Christiane,
I grew up around the Sea/Ocean and miss it dearly. Sea waters are “living waters”. And the depth of the Sea is as deep as the depth of God’s love. Every time I hear the Navy Hymn it chokes me up. Just remember that our Great Lord can calm a force 10 gale with just one little “Hush! Be quiet/settle down!” What a great God we serve and who loves us. Even when the time comes, our men will be safe just like they are safe now. Just remember psalm 139. Is there a place in this universe where our God is not?… Sometimes we just need to be reminded that “nothing can separate us from the love of God… and you know the rest of that Romans 8 passage. May the above hymn comfort you the way it comforts me and will when the time comes if they pass before we do.
I also have to add that when I was working on a Christian sail boat, and we were listening to a freighter sending out mayday calls and almost sank ourselves, having to decide who would live and who would die because there were not enough survival suits in this winter hurricane, there is something extremely comforting to know that “no matter what” we are safe in the arms and hands of the God who rules the waters. By the way, I never ever told my mother about that episode. Although I did tell Ken and it bonded us. I too want to live close to the water after Dear Hubby passes….
@ Ken F’s wife:
what a beautiful, comforting comment! Thank you so very much.
I do have something to share that you might like. I understand it is often sung at the funerals for little ones:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltxiHNcGfZM
@ Ken F’s wife:
here’s the lyrics for ‘The Seal Lullaby’ 🙂
Oh hush thee, my baby
The night is behind us
And black are the waters that sparkled so green
The moon o’er the combers looks downward to find us
At rest in the hollows that rustle between
Where billow meets billow
Then soft be thy pillow
Ah weary wee flipperling
Is curled at thy ease
The storm shall not wake thee
Nor shark overtake thee
Asleep in the arms of the slow swinging sea
Where billow meets billow
Then soft by thy pillow
Ah weary wee flippering
Is curled at thy knees
The storm shall not wake thee
Nor shark overtake thee
Asleep in the arms of the slow swinging seas
Christiane wrote:
My wife says “thanks.” Be blessed.
Does it ever enter the God-Glorifying Minds of these God-Glorifing Leaders that God might be glorified by ordinary people just living their lives?
This Rabbi from Nazareth sure didn’t chase after those God-Glorifying Pharisees, did He?