Mark Driscoll – “God Provided Our Church Family A Home!”

"We are nearing the public launch and still have some work to do and some money to raise (you can give HERE), but God has proven faithful every step of the way, so we trust in his continued provision."

Mark Driscoll

http://thetrinitychurch.com/2016/06/30/god-provided-a-home/Trinity Church – Scottsdale, Arizona

Five years ago Mark Driscoll recounted (in the video below) what God told him to do at just nineteen years of age, specifically:  marry Grace, preach the Bible (Mars Hill Church), train men (Resurgence), and plant churches (Acts 29). 

Mark is still married to Grace; however, the other directives from Almighty God do not appear to have gone according to plan.  Mars Hill (the church God told him to plant) went bust, Driscoll stepped aside as president of Acts 29 after being requested to do so (Warren Throckmorton also wrote about it), and the Resurgence ended up cancelling its training event.  What went wrong?  Perhaps Driscoll misunderstood God…

Now it appears God's desires for the Driscolls are that they live in Arizona and plant a church. 🙄 On February 1, 2016, the following post appeared over at MarkDriscoll.comAnnouncing The Trinity Church Plant in Phoenix.  In it is a video of the Driscolls talking about their recent move and upcoming ministry (see below).

Several days after the big church planting announcement, we published a post calling attention to the glaring omission in his announcement (namely Mars Hill Church).  Driscoll has totally distanced himself from the first church he planted.  The following month, we provided some of the details regarding the church plant here

http://thetrinitychurch.com/2016/06/30/god-provided-a-home/The Trinity Church was set to hold its first gathering on Resurrection Sunday.  Remember, Mark Driscoll is ruled by God.

Since that time things have been moving rather quickly.  At the end of last week, Driscoll made the following announcement on the church website (see screen shot below):

 

**************************

http://thetrinitychurch.com/2016/06/30/god-provided-a-home/*************************

And here is Pastor Mark praising his loyal followers who are working hard to get the church ready for its official launch in August.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3video.bombbomb.com/2fd3c95f-9768-e200-561f-fa6e4e80dc17.webm

 

We are grateful that Warren Throckmorton is keeping up with the latest developments at Mark Driscoll's church plant.  He wrote about the purchase of the multi-million dollar facility here.

We are also very grateful to Wenatchee the Hatchet who does an excellent job of keeping up with information related to the now defunct Mars Hill Church and Mark Driscoll.  Over the weekend he wrote the following with regard to the governing board of The Trinity Church and the acquisition of the church faciliity. (see below)

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2016/07/02/mark-driscolls-the-trinity-church-buys-a-million-dollar-mid-century-modern-home/

Wenatchee has been keeping an eye on things related to Mark Driscoll and what used to be Mars Hill Church.  He ran across the following information regarding the "Mars Hill Foundation for Planting Churches"

http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2016/07/mars-hill-foundation-for-planting.html

Not long ago this Washington State based foundation still existed.  What suddenly happened on June 21, 2016 to make it inactive???

The Trinity Church has apparently gone from rental to purchase in very short order.  For a church plant that doesn't have that many attendees, it makes one wonder who has the deep pockets?  Perhaps in time we will discover the financial angle to this church plant.

On another note, one of our commenters, mirele, has been protesting outside The Trinity Church in Arizona for some time now.  We were pleased to discover that Todd Wilhelm joined her yesterday.  He is currently in the states, specifically the Phoenix area because that is where his U.S. residence is located.  Todd went inside the church facility and immediately began making an audio recording.  In less than a minute the assistant pastor, who had just been up front, approached Todd and said he couldn't record. 

Todd asked "Why not?  Do you have something to hide?"  Todd told us they were watching him like a hawk.  They had two guys standing near him and one sitting in front of him during the entire service.  From inside the church, Todd tweeted that it felt very much like he was in a cult meeting.  He shared the very brief recording (a half a minute or so) with us, and I could hear the assistant pastor telling him to turn off the recording device.  Todd Wilhelm will be writing about his experience when he returns to Dubai, and we'll be certain to let our readership know about his Trinity Church adventure. 🙂

In the meantime, if anyone knows how Mark Driscoll and his newly acquired followers have been able to purchase (and most likely finance) a multi-million dollar facility, we would sure love to know.  Was any money from the now defunct Mars Hill Church used to fund the new church plant?

Comments

Mark Driscoll – “God Provided Our Church Family A Home!” — 265 Comments

  1. Now, for substantive comments, I suppose.

    I know of an Acts29 church in Austin that has four Sunday services in a high school gym. Every church family needs a home, yeah right.

    The fish eye lens is weird and I wonder if that’s an intentional effect.

    Do you know who has lots of money? Robert Morris.

  2. “They had two guys standing near him and one sitting in front of him during the entire service. ”
    Good grief, what did they think he was going to do? Whatever the positive spin emitted from this venture, such a level of paranoia betrays a lack of confidence of those on the inside.

  3.   __

    MickyD’s Majik Bus: “Would You ‘Trust’ This 501(c)3 Pastorally ‘Questionable’ Religious Guy?”

    hmmm…

    Perhaps Driscoll misunderstood God?

    huh?

    Perhaps, he never ‘heard’ Him in the first place,

    What?

    Hearing strange ‘voices’ can sometimes lead to startling events. Especially with Driscoll’s ‘interesting’ track record. 

    Skreeeeeeeetch !

    hum, hum, hum…God told me not to attend, He said: ‘this guy is not my kinda fun, son…’

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    Paranoia? You can be certainly assured of one thing, apparently Driscoll does not ‘intend’ to make the same mistake twice. It is his show, and he once again is the ‘brand’ (c). Big Brother and his amazing grace? Watch dat pot N’ spin it good?

    P.S. Isn’t it so ‘wonderful’ that Driscoll has Reverend Robert Morris ta ‘pray’ repercussions to your house if you don’t make good with the 10% pre-tax membership surcharge Ahem! Tithe. Shucks No cause for alarm folks, as Toco Bell presently has everything on it’s menu for 1$. 

    “Religious Mayhem is under new management?” Well whatcha know? Hitching his ‘wagon’ to this Morris ‘charismatic star’ assures us one thing, a proverbial ‘cosmic comic eventful ride’ (R) . (snicker)

    Stay tuned.

      Can’t stop this carefully orchestrated newly incorporated 501(c)3 religious dance? Aaaa.. Just don’t find yourself in the sights of his proverbial new fangled majik bus.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zWFNHmUJHe8

    (And Folks, keep those MickyD churxh recordings coming!)

    Cheers!

    Sopy

    🙂

  4. The one good thing I find about this situation is that if this new church should implode as well, at least they’ll have restored that church building to its original look. Not that I’m a particular fan of 60s architecture, but I do appreciate the preservation of historic buildings.

    Yeah I know, that’s not much comfort considering the new round of victims being sucked into the Driscoll/Morris/NAR orbit.

    I wonder how many years it will take before we see the first Trinity Church survivor blog.

  5. Driscoll is a psychopath. I think he’s a bit like the vampire in “Salem’s Lot”. Comes to town with minions in tow, buys local building, starts sucking the townsfolk dry. Where’s Van Helsing when you need him?

  6. Robert Morris is on the governing board! I know there was some talk about there relationship in earlier posts but it’s really strange. He lives in Texas.

    It also weirds me out that my friend goes to his church because goodness knows what they are teaching.

  7. Trinity Church?

    I wonder which “Trinity” that would be? The real one? Or the one that Grudem and Ware talk about, in which the role and ministry of Jesus is diminished? Or perhaps a new one?!

    I also wonder what “Church” that would be? The real one? Or the one that Driscoll tried to convince his followers it was at Mars Hill? Or perhaps a new and improved thing that will only happen under Driscoll’s leadership?!

    Nice building! Huge mortgage! I hope he doesn’t leave those poor folks holding the bag again.

    Oh, and did I miss Driscoll’s public repentance for previously taking the church on a ride or is this an unrepentant comeback?

  8. Deb wrote “Todd went inside the church facility and immediately began making an audio recording. In less than a minute the assistant pastor, who had just been up front, approached Todd and said he couldn’t record … Todd told us they were watching him like a hawk. They had two guys standing near him and one sitting in front of him during the entire service. From inside the church, Todd tweeted that it felt very much like he was in a cult meeting. He shared the very brief recording (a half a minute or so) with us, and I could hear the assistant pastor telling him to turn off the recording device.”

    Good Lord! Sounds like an NBC-Dateline story! Hmmmmm ….

  9. Patriciamc wrote:

    It sounds like his church has bouncers.

    Well, considering the times in which we live, I don’t have a problem with church bouncers/security. It’s who they target to bounce that disturbs me. Watchmen on the wall should never be asked to come off of it.

  10. @ Lea:

    Not that ‘trying to figure out what people’s whose books you read and who influence your pastors are actually saying’ counts as ‘gossip’.

  11. Lea wrote:

    who influence your pastors are actually saying’ counts as ‘gossip’.

    “Gossip” to these men is anything that hurts their image.

  12. @ Max:

    Perhaps there will be an undercover investigation by one of the major networks once things get rolling good. I'm not a fan of the liberal media, but some of their reports can be helpful to an unsuspecting public.

  13. Lea wrote:

    You wouldn’t listen to gossip but you’ll read it. (Robert Morris)

    We need to be careful writing off a watchman’s call as gossip!

    “I have set watchmen; all the day and all the night they shall never be silent” (Isaiah 62:6)

    “If the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, so that the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any one of them, that person is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand” (Ezekiel 33:6)

    Watchmen must be faithful to their calling. They speak as they see it. It’s a matter of spiritual life or death. They don’t gossip.

  14. You know, when I first started picketing Scientology back in the mid-1990s, I never *dreamed* I’d be picketing a Chriatian church two decades later. But here I am.

    I really appreciate Todd Wilhelm being with me on Sunday, and for going into the church. He confirmed on Twitter what I suspected on several fronts.

    First, there are only about 100 adults attending. Granted, some are now in the Sunday School, but certainly not enough “giving units” to make the mortgage on the building.

    Second, it’s creepy that they had “handlers” to keep an eye on Todd. That’s cult behavior.

    Third, it’s weird how Todd wasn’t allowed to record the sermon. While it could have been due to “secrets,” I think it’s more because I think Driscoll wants to control the distribution and monetization of his sermons.

    (Just as a side note, Driscoll was last supposed to preach a sermon series on 1 John when he cratered Mars Hill Seattle. Right now he’s doing a Bible study on, you guessed it, 1 John. As if he’s trying to prove it’s business as usual.)

    Fourth, Driscoll had a replacement for this past Sunday. Is this to be expected for all the Monday holidays?

    Fifth, why would any church lend a pastor to Driscoll, especially a church in the same area which could reasonably expect Driscoll to poach some sheep.

    Inquiring minds and all that…

  15. Max wrote:

    I wonder which “Trinity” that would be?

    Driscoll was tight with both Ware and Grudem back in the Mars Hill glory days. IIRC, one or both of them preached at Mars Hill while he was on his “break” after things blew up. I wonder if that has changed.

    I also wonder who are the people who are going to his “church.” Grudem lives in the Scottsdale area. It is a puzzle to me why Driscoll landed there.

  16. So glad you got to spend some time with Todd Wilhelm. His godly character puts pastors like Mark Driscoll to shame.

  17. @ Gram3:

    Yes, he was very chummy with Wayne and Margaret Grudem. I remember the YouTube video of the three of them in Mark's humongous study.

  18. mirele wrote:

    Driscoll was last supposed to preach a sermon series on 1 John when he cratered Mars Hill Seattle. Right now he’s doing a Bible study on, you guessed it, 1 John

    The purpose of 1 John was to warn the church about false teachings. It contrasts light vs. darkness, truth vs. falsehood, righteousness vs. sin. I’d like to hear Driscoll’s commentary on that!

  19. Stan wrote:

    Do you know who has lots of money? Robert Morris.

    I wondered about that. Mr. Morris could certainly come up with the seed money to get Mr. Driscoll’s church going. (He has taken extreme measures to increase his fund raising, going so far as to promote the odd doctrine that Jesus is God’s tithe.) A seat on the board would be a good way to keep an eye on the investment.

  20. mirele wrote:

    You know, when I first started picketing Scientology back in the mid-1990s, I never *dreamed* I’d be picketing a Chriatian church two decades later. But here I am.

    I would totally come stand with you and hold a sign or pass out flyers if I was anywhere near there. My mom’s family used to live in Scottsdale, but I live all the way across the country. 🙁

  21. Mark Driscoll – “God Provided Our Church Family A Home!”

    So… Robert Morris is god then?

    (If his deep pockets are the source)…
    Lots of dollars but no sense? What’s his angle?

    I guess with friends with that kind of money, you don’t have to worry too much about legal costs?

  22. @ Max:

    Heh. Look out, he’s fired up!

    I don’t need to read blogs about him I’ve seen his palace to know what he’s about, located on Blessed Way (really), seen from miles around on SH114, in Southlake, DFW’s richest and whitest suburb.

    With that board, I wonder if Driscoll is gearing up for a TBN broadcast empire.

  23. Stan wrote:

    I don’t need to read blogs about him I’ve seen his palace to know what he’s about, located on Blessed Way (really), seen from miles around on SH114, in Southlake, DFW’s richest and whitest suburb.
    With that board, I wonder if Driscoll is gearing up for a TBN broadcast empire.

    Here am I, in Atlanta’s richest suburb (I dunno about whitist, it’s pretty multicultural), and we’ve got 5 megachurches within 10 miles.

    It’s amazing to me how many of God’s self-proclaimed speshul snowflakes get called to the richest suburbs in the country.

  24. From Trinity Church website FAQ page:

    What Bible Translation Does Pastor Mark Preach From? … Pastor Mark prefers to use the English Standard Version of the Bible (ESV)… you will want to bring a copy of the ESV in some format.

    Well, he didn’t leave everything behind in Seattle!

  25. Stan wrote:

    I don’t need to read blogs about him I’ve seen his palace to know what he’s about, located on Blessed Way (really), seen from miles around on SH114, in Southlake, DFW’s richest and whitest suburb.

    And for all that, he can’t even be bothered to preach more than once (?) on a weekend. All those pre-recorded sermon deals beamed out to multiple campuses are very strange.

  26. @ ishy:

    Southlake is a bubble on the edge of the city. Other wealthy areas in DFW still have an “other side of the tracks”. Hey, if you want to have fun with Google Maps, look up the locations of:

    Gateway Church and its branches
    Ed Young Jr’s Fellowship Church and its branches
    The Village Church and its branches
    Acts29 churches

    And note the overlaps.

  27. ishy wrote:

    It’s amazing to me how many of God’s self-proclaimed speshul snowflakes get called to the richest suburbs in the country.

    Go he therefore, acquiring as much money as you can so that you can strut your stuff around in multi-million dollar buildings, made by men!

  28. Deb wrote:

    So glad you got to spend some time with Todd Wilhelm. His godly character puts pastors like Mark Driscoll to shame.

    I can barely wait to see what Todd has to say about the “services”.

  29. Stan wrote:

    Southlake is a bubble on the edge of the city. Other wealthy areas in DFW still have an “other side of the tracks”. Hey, if you want to have fun with Google Maps, look up the locations of:
    Gateway Church and its branches
    Ed Young Jr’s Fellowship Church and its branches
    The Village Church and its branches
    Acts29 churches
    And note the overlaps.

    Oh I believe you! Where I live is the exact same way. We’ve got the oft-referenced North Point, First Redeemer, Woodstock, and Perimeter. There’s a couple others that are about as large as those, but not with the pull that those do.

  30. Lea wrote:

    And for all that, he can’t even be bothered to preach more than once (?) on a weekend. All those pre-recorded sermon deals beamed out to multiple campuses are very strange.

    The whole purpose of satellite campuses is a mystery to me. Why would anyone want to go to church to watch a broadcast that they could watch at home?

  31. Max wrote:

    Watchmen must be faithful to their calling. They speak as they see it. It’s a matter of spiritual life or death. They don’t gossip.

    mirele is a watchman!

  32. ishy wrote:

    It’s amazing to me how many of God’s self-proclaimed speshul snowflakes get called to the richest suburbs in the country.

    Thanks for the laugh.

    Isn’t “speshul snowflakes” a H.U.G.-ism?

  33. mirele wrote:

    Third, it’s weird how Todd wasn’t allowed to record the sermon. While it could have been due to “secrets,” I think it’s more because I think Driscoll wants to control the distribution and monetization of his sermons.

    The average attendance at our church is about 100. Every sermon is recorded on a DVD. Wanna copy? Just ask. The guy in the “sound box” will give you one.
    Weird that MD wants to keep his sermons ” in house”!

  34. Bridget wrote:

    Lea wrote:
    who influence your pastors are actually saying’ counts as ‘gossip’.
    “Gossip” to these men is anything that hurts their image.

    So true.

    “Biblical” means “do exactly as we say” with blind obedience, no critical thinking skills or Bereans allowed.

  35. Me beating head against wall:

    Good grief has the mega buck evangelical subculture become all there is left of the faith?

    NO! It has not!

    Sometimes I wish I could order all who claim to be believers into a spiritual detox. No listening to Christian music, no blogs (even TWW but remember this is temporary!), no books other than a plain text version Bible, and meetings that are only of equals with no one ordained or elected or appointed to any form of leadership for 90 days. Just 90. And those meetings limited to simple sharing of what you have seen and learned for yourself of Jesus in the past week.

    I truly believe at the end of 90 days you would find that now that you have experienced real church, the 501(c)3 fakes stand out like sore thumbs. And we might see some real health coming back into the body of Christ.

    If you cannot imagine church without a minister, be one. Serve at a rescue mission. Baby sit free for needy parents. Fix someone’s car. Visit an elderly neighbor. Take food to a struggling family. Go mend that fence between you and someone else. Take a job in a backwater place or big city, and actually live there and be part of the community. Volunteer at the school, or library, or nursing home, or hospital.

    And do it all while letting it be known you are a Christian. Wear a cross or crucifix. Talk about your faith. Come out of that Christian closet.

    All this costs nothing for pastor pay, books, cd’s, seminars, mission trips, buildings, insurance, etc.

    How about that? No overhead, no bosses, all workers.

    Imagine what might happen. It is happening today on the rez, out at Nageezi. It is happening still on pick up tailgates in the Bakken. It is happening at our local McD’s and in our town.

    Messy church? Yes. But more effective and cost efficient.

  36. ishy wrote:

    It’s amazing to me how many of God’s self-proclaimed speshul snowflakes get called to the richest suburbs in the country.

    Ain’t that the truth!

    If Jesus had only known about the marketing and business tactics of today’s church leaders – He wouldn’t have had just a measly 100 or so total disciples.

    It’s clear from Scripture that Jesus was always expending His energy and time going for the wealthy, the powerful, the successful, the well-connected to bring them into His group of followers.

    Right? 😉

  37. ishy wrote:

    The whole purpose of satellite campuses is a mystery to me. Why would anyone want to go to church to watch a broadcast that they could watch at home?

    Because then no one would know that you were a part of the Great Man’s Movement.

    “I watched Great Man on tv” isn’t quite as impressive as “I’m a member of Great Man’s satellite church.”

    Plus, there’s the extra pleasure of looking around and realizing that you and all these people around you (if you can see them through the fog machines) are a part of What God is Doing Now!

  38. Nancy2 wrote:

    Weird that MD wants to keep his sermons ” in house”!

    He’s just following in Jesus’ footsteps.

    You know how Jesus was always sneakin’ around, trying to hide what He was teaching?

    Like that! 😉

  39. linda wrote:

    And do it all while letting it be known you are a Christian. Wear a cross or crucifix. Talk about your faith. Come out of that Christian closet.

    All this costs nothing for pastor pay, books, cd’s, seminars, mission trips, buildings, insurance, etc.

    How about that? No overhead, no bosses, all workers.

    And get together on occasion and share what you’ve learned and worship the Lord. See if there is anyone in need. See if anyone knows of an opportunity to serve.

    Share what God is doing in your life.

    Find out that the little mousey person was empowered by God to start a conversation with a complete stranger in an elevator, who was in desperate need to talk to someone.

    Find out that the pushy broad who honked her horn in the supermarket parking lot at some guy in a pickup, who was backing up traffic while waiting for some woman to slowly unload her groceries, so he could have a parking spot that put him a leeettle closer to the grocery door (that’s a run-on sentence!) was humbled by God. When the middle-aged man exited his truck upon winning the prized parking spot, and hobbled toward the supermarket door with the aid of 2 crutches.

    Discover the reality of the Holy Spirit working with and through these people that you see once a week and seldom speak to.

    And look upon them with different eyes, and upon your God with a different heart.

  40. linda wrote:

    Sometimes I wish I could order all who claim to be believers into a spiritual detox. No listening to Christian music, no blogs (even TWW but remember this is temporary!), no books other than a plain text version Bible, and meetings that are only of equals with no one ordained or elected or appointed to any form of leadership for 90 days. Just 90. And those meetings limited to simple sharing of what you have seen and learned for yourself of Jesus in the past week.

    I truly believe at the end of 90 days you would find that now that you have experienced real church, the 501(c)3 fakes stand out like sore thumbs. And we might see some real health coming back into the body of Christ.

    And I forgot to say “Amen”. 🙂

  41. Bridget wrote:

    “Gossip” to these men is anything that hurts their image.

    Or that disrupts them from being in control of and the ONLY source of information.

  42. BL wrote:

    Or that disrupts them from being in control of and the ONLY source of information.

    He who controls the information flow has power. Social media, while being too social and gossipy sometimes, is also a very powerful tool. The New Calvinist movement would not exist without it; nor would the Truth about them be disseminated. Ministers and ministries which feel threatened to have things revealed about them on the internet usually have a reason to feel that way.

  43. Pingback: Linkathon! | PhoenixPreacher

  44. @ linda:
    Linda, if we could get those folks who show up for your 90-days of Jesus-only to also humble themselves, repent of their sins, and pray their guts out … we might just see revival in the church and spiritual awakening in the nation!

  45. BL wrote:

    Find out that the little mousey person was empowered by God to start a conversation with a complete stranger in an elevator, who was in desperate need to talk to someone.

    Find out that the pushy broad who honked her horn in the supermarket parking lot at some guy in a pickup, who was backing up traffic while waiting for some woman to slowly unload her groceries, so he could have a parking spot that put him a leeettle closer to the grocery door (that’s a run-on sentence!) was humbled by God. When the middle-aged man exited his truck upon winning the prized parking spot, and hobbled toward the supermarket door with the aid of 2 crutches.

    Discover the reality of the Holy Spirit working with and through these people that you see once a week and seldom speak to.

    And look upon them with different eyes, and upon your God with a different heart.

    Well said!

  46. BL wrote:

    It’s clear from Scripture that Jesus was always expending His energy and time going for the wealthy, the powerful, the successful, the well-connected to bring them into His group of followers.

    Riiigghhhhttttt………… EVERYBody knows that Peter and Andrew weren’t just a lowly fisherman. They were co-owners and CEOs of Gorton’s!

  47. Nancy2 wrote:

    Riiigghhhhttttt………… EVERYBody knows that Peter and Andrew weren’t just a lowly fisherman. They were co-owners and CEOs of Gorton’s!

    Now I’m going to crave fish sticks every time I pass a megachurch.

  48. Gram3 wrote:

    I also wonder who are the people who are going to his “church.” Grudem lives in the Scottsdale area. It is a puzzle to me why Driscoll landed there.

    Scottsdale is an upper class suburb of predominately white folks. Guys like Driscoll and Mahaney always seem to find a need to plant churches where potential members have good incomes.

  49. Here is the latest post I got up…Its an overview of the issues in the Evangelical Free denomination. This is a letter to the EFCA West director.

    An open letter to Steve Highfill of EFCA West. Steve is the “air traffic controller” of this district. This post is about the worst airline disaster in United States history (minus 9-11) and is about American Airlines flight 191 in Chicago. Are there parallels between that infamous flight and the trajectory of the Evangelical Free denomination? Also this explains the how the autonomous nature of the EFCA is being exploited by Neo-Calvinists, and why Steve Estes and Community Evangelical Free Church must be resolved. Its a test for the denomination’s polity as all eyes are on Elverson, Pennsylvania.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/07/04/an-open-letter-to-steve-highfill-efca-west-director/

  50. Velour wrote:

    no critical thinking skills or Bereans allowed.

    At a glance I first read that as “no critical tithing skills.” Maybe those are needed too.

  51. Max, I totally agree about the need for repentance, humbling, and prayer.

    That is exactly what I’ve seen happen when folks do the detox.

    And during it (and after, since you can do this continuously) I recommend highly an old way of engaging the scripture. Scholars hate it, Calvinistas call it mysticism and debunk it, but it is life changing for my Mennonite and Brethren friends who practice it.

    Here it is: you will divide the Book into 7 sections. Whatever day you consider the first of your week, start with the first section. Read one chapter a day in order from that day’s section. The sections are, naming only the beginning book of a section, Genesis, Psalms, Isaiah, Matthew, Acts, Galatians, Hebrews.

    No footnotes. No checking other translations. Not even running the references. No commentaries or teachers or whatever.

    Liberals, fundies, conservatives, moderates, egals, comps, whatever camp all seem to hate it because you just cannot escape the “gotcha” verses of the other side. You have to just engage the scripture, and of course engage God in the process.

    I believe you come up with a God who is much stricter on right and wrong than either liberals or conservatives can dream of. And much more merciful for the repentant sinner.

    And that the “right” way of life according to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost conflicts hugely with pretty much anything being lived out in any of our denominations, especially the bigger ones. It is far more small group, far more celebratory of God, far more sacrificial and even voluntary simplicity than we want.

    So when I see the powers that be fighting to maintain control of who can be the shaman, and see any group fighting for the right to break into that group and be the shaman, I always want to scream why?

    I mean, it is like fighting for the biggest piece of Aunt Susie’s pecan pie and yet having the Scripture so clearly forbid eating ANY of it because Aunt Susie is typhoid Mary.

  52. Deb wrote:

    Stan wrote:
    Do you know who has lots of money? Robert Morris.
    I have been thinking along these lines as well…
    Did you see the post below that I wrote way back in October 2014?
    Driscoll’s New Tribe -> Robert Morris and The Gateway Gang
    As I explained in the above post, Robert Morris introduced Driscoll at a conference in 2014 after he (Mark) had been away from the public eye for quite a while.  Here’s that clip:

    Ok, I watched most of the video at the Robert Morris conference. One of things that I find annoying – well, actually offensive – is when these pastors of mega churches talk about the rough toll that it takes on them to preach several sermons per week. They think that’s rough? What about pastors of small churches who aren’t celebrities working a REGULAR job all week AND preaching sermons as well? What about the average folks in the pew who work 40 plus hours per week or have two jobs just to make ends meet? What about the folks who work physically demanding jobs and are dead tired when they arrive home after a grueling shift? I could go on but I think y’all get the drift. These mega-church pastors are so out of touch with reality.

  53. Gram3 wrote:

    Max wrote:
    I wonder which “Trinity” that would be?
    Driscoll was tight with both Ware and Grudem back in the Mars Hill glory days. IIRC, one or both of them preached at Mars Hill while he was on his “break” after things blew up. I wonder if that has changed.
    I also wonder who are the people who are going to his “church.” Grudem lives in the Scottsdale area. It is a puzzle to me why Driscoll landed there.

    What I find interesting is that so many of the New Calvinist preacher boys supported Driscoll, while many average folk were warning about Driscoll at the same time. If these celeb preacher boys have such discernment, wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc. – why were they fooled when it came to Driscoll? Well, I think I know the answer to that question – he got the gospel right – oh, and he was a complementarian. The point is: the lot of these celeb preacher boys were fooled. How embarrassing. And now that Driscoll has fled and set up camp in Arizona gaining the support of Charismatics – I wonder if anything has dawned on these Neo-Cals who formerly supported Driscoll? These same Neo-Cal preachers who like to stress over and over about their authority and submission to elders were blind when it came to Driscoll. Hey, I thought it was wimmen who were supposed to be easily deceived. That they were so taken in by Driscoll – when it was OBVIOUS the kind of man he was – should give anyone pause to trust these Neo-Calvinists. I wonder if any of them will publicly admit they were taken in – fooled – by Driscoll? So far….silence.

  54. Max wrote:

    From Trinity Church website FAQ page:
    What Bible Translation Does Pastor Mark Preach From? … Pastor Mark prefers to use the English Standard Version of the Bible (ESV)… you will want to bring a copy of the ESV in some format.
    Well, he didn’t leave everything behind in Seattle!

    Well, Max, he may not have left everything behind in Seattle, but me thinks if he is going to play with Morris and the Charismatics, he might just have to leave complementarianism behind!

  55. Darlene wrote:

    if he is going to play with Morris and the Charismatics, he might just have to leave complementarianism behind

    Yep, there are some women preachers in that bunch who would skin his head if he played the comp card on them!

  56. Darlene wrote:

    why were they fooled when it came to Driscoll?

    or Piper … or Mahaney … or Dever … or Mohler … or Duncan … etc.?

    There is zero-ounce of discernment in New Calvinist ranks. God does not grant wisdom to the rebellious.

  57. Darlene wrote:

    One of things that I find annoying – well, actually offensive – is when these pastors of mega churches talk about the rough toll that it takes on them to preach several sermons per week. They think that’s rough?

    Ha. These guys would wither and die if they couldn’t strut around on stages with public adoration. They live for it. Who do they think they’re kidding?

  58. If you haven’t had enough of the sheep beating pop over to Thom Rainers blog and read the article about dying churches.

    I mean, who knew refusing to put the words on a screen would kill a church?

    And I coulda had a V8. Or at least slapped myself upside the head for not thinking of that.

  59. BL wrote:

    ishy wrote:
    The whole purpose of satellite campuses is a mystery to me. Why would anyone want to go to church to watch a broadcast that they could watch at home?
    Because then no one would know that you were a part of the Great Man’s Movement.
    “I watched Great Man on tv” isn’t quite as impressive as “I’m a member of Great Man’s satellite church.”
    Plus, there’s the extra pleasure of looking around and realizing that you and all these people around you (if you can see them through the fog machines) are a part of What God is Doing Now!

    Speaking of campus churches, it would be interesting to compile a list of churches that do this sort of thing. There might be a pattern. I’ll start the list with:
    1. Village Church
    http://www.thevillagechurch.net/

  60. Christiane wrote:

    Was Mars Hill left in arrears?

    As an entity, it was certainly left up somebody’s rear.

    The real tragedy surrounding the collapse of the Mars Hill motivational speaking business was the same as the real tragedy that had always surrounded it – namely, the people inside who were honestly persuaded it was “a church”.

  61. Darlene wrote:

    Speaking of campus churches, it would be interesting to compile a list of churches that do this sort of thing. There might be a pattern. I’ll start the list with:
    1. Village Church
    http://www.thevillagechurch.net/

    I actually started doing something similar, though I was looking at the largest churches in the US, where they were located (rich suburbs), theology, affiliation, and how dependent they are on satellite campuses. Most of the largest ones do.

    Here in Atlanta, there’s North Point Community Church (5 campuses)

    We had a Life.church campus here, but I haven’t seen signs for it lately.

    An interesting side note, Perimeter Church was a bunch of satellite campuses who joined together to make a megachurch.

  62. Some questions have been raised here about how Mr Driskle’s new meeting-place has been paid for with the relatively small number of giving units. Several possibilities:

     They’re rich, generous giving units;
     If it happens that Driskle himself managed to accrue any savings from his modest ministerial stipend in Seattle, he may even have given the $ himself as a love-offering

    But either way, I think Driskle is missing a trick. He should get it funded by a select band of venture-capitalists, who would provide the startup capital in return for shares in the business. They would expect to share in the profits from the monetised speaking engagements etc, but that’s fine, because it would be for Jesus.

  63. Darlene wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Max wrote:
    I wonder which “Trinity” that would be?
    Driscoll was tight with both Ware and Grudem back in the Mars Hill glory days. IIRC, one or both of them preached at Mars Hill while he was on his “break” after things blew up. I wonder if that has changed.
    I also wonder who are the people who are going to his “church.” Grudem lives in the Scottsdale area. It is a puzzle to me why Driscoll landed there.
    What I find interesting is that so many of the New Calvinist preacher boys supported Driscoll, while many average folk were warning about Driscoll at the same time. If these celeb preacher boys have such discernment, wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc. – why were they fooled when it came to Driscoll? Well, I think I know the answer to that question – he got the gospel right – oh, and he was a complementarian. The point is: the lot of these celeb preacher boys were fooled. How embarrassing. And now that Driscoll has fled and set up camp in Arizona gaining the support of Charismatics – I wonder if anything has dawned on these Neo-Cals who formerly supported Driscoll? These same Neo-Cal preachers who like to stress over and over about their authority and submission to elders were blind when it came to Driscoll. Hey, I thought it was wimmen who were supposed to be easily deceived. That they were so taken in by Driscoll – when it was OBVIOUS the kind of man he was – should give anyone pause to trust these Neo-Calvinists. I wonder if any of them will publicly admit they were taken in – fooled – by Driscoll? So far….silence.

    PREACH IT!!!

  64. Darlene wrote:

    Hey, I thought it was wimmen who were supposed to be easily deceived. That they were so taken in by Driscoll – when it was OBVIOUS the kind of man he was – should give anyone pause to trust these Neo-Calvinists. I wonder if any of them will publicly admit they were taken in – fooled – by Driscoll? So far….silence.

    Yep, silence! But what would these same men be saying if this had transpired with a female pastor as the head of a Mars Hill situation enterprise? See, this is why women should not pastor . . .

  65. It would seem that Ps Driscoll has surrounded (ensconced?) himself with “yes” men: both associate pastors have previously experience with Driscoll at Mars Hill – according to “between the lines” reading of the “Who We Are” page of the Trinity Church website. If this is true, he has simply moved the Mars Hill culture into Scottsdale to rebirth it anew with two willing partners invested in his plan, including keeping secrets and perpetuating deceit.

    Assoc Ps Girton’s bio reads: “God eventually called the Girtons to begin attending a church led by Pastor Mark Driscoll, where Andy entered full-time vocational ministry.” He “helped plant two churches, assisted in a church merger, and led various teams” (technology is his specialty) – all in the Seattle area.

    A similar story is told for Assoc Ps Andersen: “The Driscolls have been part of our lives for over a decade. From being our pastor, to praying with their then babysitter, Lanna, for her future husband before we even met. Our family is honored and excited to be a part of The Trinity Church.” Andersen was an Executive Pastor (somewhere?). And his wife’s relationship w/ the Driscoll’s was of a more personal nature according to the above quote. She was the Driscoll’s babysitter.

    So far, the staff list of Trinity reads more like a reunion/reboot than a repentant reformation.

    Am I missing something?

  66. I live hand to mouth economically, mainly because I had two family members get cancer and die and I raised a kid and helped my mother out on a 40K salary as a teacher. In church that made me scum, there is no other way to put it but I was trash talked all the time about being a scab, government prostitute (Actually the w version of that word), and then the general condemnations about being lazy, liar, apostate, heretic, … fill in the blank.

    I will admit it, in a way I wish I made the money Driscoll and his ilk did, my mother could have died at home like she begged me. That sin I will carry on my soul the rest of my life. I admit I’m jealous, now I am on my own and could just bow out but being the idiot I am now I got all tangled up with helping folks with affordable housing kind of stuff.

    To be honest, the Christian religion has a great deal of good to it, but it hurts so much almost all the time, the echoes of all the condemnation from the faith family I loved and still love. People think you just “get over it”, like I had explained to me when people die, move on let the dead bury their dead and so on, grief makes God a liar and all the other fun stuff. Not to mention the “they are in hell and their blood is on your hands because you did not share the Gospel good enough” etc.

    Sorry to sound like this but man this weekend was just one giant heart ache. Thanks for letting me vent.

  67. brian wrote:

    grief makes God a liar

    Brian, seriously, people say that? What is wrong with them? I am so sorry! That is unconscionable. What happened to “weep with those who weep”? Just because we don’t grieve in the same way as “those who have no hope” does NOT mean we do not grieve at all! When God spared the life of Epaphroditus, Paul said that God had also had mercy on him, because he would have had “sorrow upon sorrow.”

    I honestly think some people use a “Christian” smoke screen to hide the fact that they don’t feel grief- because they have no connection to others. It makes a great excuse to explain why they show no sorrow or grief… at least, to those who don’t know better. It also serves as a rationalization for those who don’t want to be bothered to weep with those who weep, or who don’t want to feel emotions that are unpleasant.

    Brian, you sure seem to have endured a lot of abuse and condemnation from your church. I pray God will heal you and show you that that condemnation did not come from him. Have you ever thought of writing up your story? Or have you? I bet there are a lot of people who would identify.

  68. Bridget wrote:

    But what would these same men be saying if this had transpired with a female pastor as the head of a Mars Hill situation enterprise? See, this is why women should not pastor . . .

    That is exactly the objection which English Ken Living in Germany used to say. I do not doubt his experience at with female pastors all, but it was certainly a leap to say that the female pastors were bad and/or deceived *because* they were female.

  69. Yes people say that often it is muted sort of like this

    fully knowing Im a public school teacher
    Public schools are teaching our children (fill in the blank) and have an agenda against God. And the teachers are liberal and against God or pro gay fill in the blank. The Government prostitute phrase was often used to those who worked for the gov unless in the defense industry, that one was used at bible studies and at camps more than at church, never from the pulpit just the one on one type conversations. The helping unsaved family was not a constant drum beat but the if you love mother or father sister or brother more than me (Jesus) then you are not worthy of me, and the unequally yoked with non-believers and you need to help the church before family type rhetoric was used at times. The grief thing was really personal because I had alot of death in my family it seemed like I was always going on about this or that person dying and I admit it could get old, I mean I might discuss it ten or fifteen minutes during a prayer or personal meeting and I admit that is way overboard or I guess it was.

    Just a story and multiply this conversation by 1000 and you get where Im coming from, a family member was beaten pretty bad by her boyfriend along with my nephew whom I was help raise and I became angry after the phone call telling me this. The brother, one of my best friends at the time, let me discuss it for about five minutes, I remember I always timed myself when I was discussing things so I did not talk too much, for every 1 minute of discussion I would leave 5-10 minutes of being told what I was doing wrong, what I needed to repent of and so on. My friend, whom I loved with all my heart looked at me right in the eye, right into my soul and told me “You really enjoy this dont you?” No I did not but thats what people thought of me I still cant figure it out.

  70. Charis wrote:

    So far, the staff list of Trinity reads more like a reunion/reboot than a repentant reformation.

    No, I don’t think you missed a thing. Mark Driscoll’s friends are pulling up to the money and power trough to feed there. No ethics. Any of them.

    http://repentantpastor.com/ (former pastors/elders from Mars Hill who repented and apologized for their sins against Paul Petry (elder/attorney) who was fired and excommunicated for opposing Driscoll’s un-Biblical consolidation of power. Repented of sins against others. Mark Driscoll, coward that he is, NEVER has made amends and repented.

    Wade Burleson, pastor here at E-Church on Sundays at Wartburg Watch from Enid, OK,
    and his blog articles about Driscoll:

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2013/11/mark-driscoll-and-janet-mefferd.html

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/01/evangelicals-and-excessive-sex-mark.html

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2012/03/memo-to-mars-hill-men-suppression-of.html

  71. @ siteseer:

    Why didn’t God just do that with abhorrent leaders in the old testament instead of sending prophets and other nations to do his bidding?

  72. Gram3 wrote:

    Bridget wrote:

    But what would these same men be saying if this had transpired with a female pastor as the head of a Mars Hill situation enterprise? See, this is why women should not pastor . . .

    That is exactly the objection which English Ken Living in Germany used to say. I do not doubt his experience at with female pastors all, but it was certainly a leap to say that the female pastors were bad and/or deceived *because* they were female.

    You’re right. I remember that, those that it was illogical.

  73. brian wrote:

    Just a story and multiply this conversation by 1000 and you get where Im coming from,

    I believe you. I hear you.

  74. John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    I’m the woman doing the protesting. I’m doing it not because I believe God is telling me to do it (I don’t even begin to have the hubris to suggest that God is telling me to stand outside Driscoll’s church on a Sunday).

    I am doing it because I’ve read the stories of people who were badly hurt by Driscoll running over them with the Mars Hill bus.

    I am angry that this man still gets respect when he plagiarized from others.

    I cannot believe that Driscoll has not been called out publicly by his church contemporaries for trying to game the New York Times bestseller list.

    And the list goes on. You can read it here: http://www.DespicableMarkDriscoll.com

    I’m certainly not doing it for *me*. I’d rather spend Sunday mornings where the temperature is now topping the 90s at the time Driscoll starts church at home in the air conditioning.

    I’m doing it to warn people of the man they would seek to trust with their spiritual lives. He is a proven *problem* and should Not.Be.Trusted.

    That’s why I do it.

  75. siteseer wrote:

    I pray God will heal you and show you that that condemnation did not come from him.

    Poor Brian … what kind of ‘church’ doesn’t understand that grief is a holy thing in that Our Lord who was fully God and fully Man, wept at the death of a friend, and so showed us that our tears are a part of the best of our human kind ? And we are instructed to weep with those who weep.

    People don’t ‘get over it’ when a loved one passes. They miss the person. Grieving is a process that goes through many stages. It changes us irrevocably. The Church can reflect the work of the Holy Spirit, ‘the Comforter’, when it comes along side the bereaved member and offers a needed strengthening support.

  76. John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    That’s like saying…well…
    Basically it’s like saying that humans have no agency and can do nothing (nor should they) to try and improve their lot.

  77. John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    If this type of reasoning works in your circle, then you need to widen your circle. Deconstructing the statement we can say confidently the House of Driscoll “is not of God”, an enormous amount of posts and comments at TWW and elsewhere have firmly established that. So if something is wrong, your implication is we do not have a responsibility to point it out or try to stop it, that is a serious error.

    Nod to Mirele on coining “House of Driscoll”, go Mirele.

  78. Max wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    why were they fooled when it came to Driscoll?

    Max wrote:
    or Piper … or Mahaney … or Dever … or Mohler … or Duncan … etc.?

    There is zero-ounce of discernment in New Calvinist ranks.

    It is striking.

  79. Linda and Mirele. Thank you both for your words and actions. They are encouraging and inspiring to me. Truth in word and deeds. Simplicity and obedience. How refreshing. Please keep confronting us.

  80. John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    perhaps the Good Lord expects for us to reach out and try to prevent the suffering of others at the hands of a ‘minister’ who has already done much harm ….. if a Christian is aware of potential danger to innocent people, and CAN do something to put light on that danger, the Christian may be, by protesting, doing a work of mercy.

    And for the rogue ‘minister’, a Christian’s intervention can also be a work of mercy:
    ‘condemnation’ and judgment is not the core mission of a person trying to warn of danger to possible future victims …. no, not in a situation where the Christian is attuned to the goodness which the Holy Spirit sows in the midst of human weakness, where even the ‘minister’ can have his eyes opened, in a way that leads to repentance.

    I would say to stay positive towards the good that may come from an intervention instead of standing silently and watching the train-wreck gradually unfold. A Christian can make a difference by intervening. But the Christian must do it in such a way that does not rule out the possibility of the workings of the Holy Spirit to touch the heart of the destructive ‘minister’ also.

    (This may not make ‘sense’, but love is never bound by practicality.)

  81. John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    What makes you think that, John? I have not ever seen God stop a charlatan, have you? Indeed, they often acquire a great deal of wealth in this world system.

    The reason to protest is love. Concern for the people who will be hurt, as hordes of people in the Seattle area were. Their stories are online. A wise person would investigate. “A wise man suspects danger and cautiously avoids evil” Proverbs 14:16.

  82. siteseer wrote:

    The reason to protest is love. Concern for the people who will be hurt, as hordes of people in the Seattle area were. Their stories are online. A wise person would investigate. “A wise man suspects danger and cautiously avoids evil” Proverbs 14:16.

    Amen.

    Bless Mirele for going on Sundays and being concerned for people. Bless Todd W. for joining her. If I am ever in AZ, I’ll join in to on a Sunday.

  83. @ siteseer:
    Bridget wrote:

    But what would these same men be saying if this had transpired with a female pastor as the head of a Mars Hill situation enterprise? See, this is why women should not pastor . . .

    Well, I guess we have *tons* of evidence why men should not pastor, then! 😉

  84. linda wrote:

    If you haven’t had enough of the sheep beating pop over to Thom Rainers blog and read the article about dying churches.

    I mean, who knew refusing to put the words on a screen would kill a church?

    And I coulda had a V8. Or at least slapped myself upside the head for not thinking of that.

    …and:

    “Unfortunately, good pastors and staff from all over are emotionally and verbally beaten up by church members.”

    “Criticism is the great distraction to the Great Commission.”

    Aww, the poor guys. They can sure dish it out but they can’t take it.

  85. Max wrote:

    Oh, and did I miss Driscoll’s public repentance for previously taking the church on a ride or is this an unrepentant comeback?

    Why repent if you don’t have to?

  86. Charis wrote:

    Am I missing something?

    Not missing a thing Charis. Assistant pastor Andy was one of the men who stood behind me for the entire hour. I do wonder where the money has been coming from to pay the lease for the church, conduct the renovations and pay the salaries of three pastors.

  87. Me thinks Mark is going where the money is. He once preached against Joel Osteen (a buddy of Robert Morris by the way) and the prosperity gospel, but oh how things have changed. Now that the Neo-Cals have distanced themselves from him, where else could he go? Here’s the video where Driscoll is dissing Joel Osteen.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpNBhJvWpoQ

    And here’s the video of Robert Morris and Joel Osteen palling it up.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFF8q94O3b8

  88. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Assistant pastor Andy was one of the men who stood behind me for the entire hour. I do wonder where the money has been coming from to pay the lease for the church, conduct the renovations and pay the salaries of three pastors.

    I’m looking forward to your “review” of the service!

  89. brian wrote:

    grief makes God a liar

    Jesus wept.

    Those people were wrong. We are to comfort those who mourn, not rebuke them.

    A time to mourn and a time to dance,

    Abraham went to mourn for Sarah and to weep over her.

    Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

    mourn with those who mourn.

    I will comfort those who mourn,

  90. linda wrote:

    If you haven’t had enough of the sheep beating pop over to Thom Rainers blog and read the article about dying churches.

    Ironically, though I believe it is lost on the Gospel glitterati, the second and third categories (“Self-entitled” and “Negatively critical,” respectively) are accurate descriptions of many megas and many YRR/Neo-Cal ‘pastors’.

  91. siteseer wrote:

    Brian, seriously, people say that? What is wrong with them?

    Siteseer, yes, they definitely do – at least, those who have been inculcated by “Biblical Counseling”, which most of us here agree is neither Biblical nor counseling. I went for a brief session with a counseling professor at SEBTS on one of the anniversary’s of the death of my 4 y/o daughter and was told to “stop looking backwards” and press on; the past is in the past and all that. Of course, Bible verses were used to support the statement. Needless to say, I rejected that premise.

  92. John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    John, there are a couple of us on this blog who are deeply reformed (not Neo-Cal, I hasten to add). I would respond to your question with this: Why protest? Because God does not only ordain the ends, He also ordains the means. Mirele’s protests, and that of others, may be the means that God ordained to end the false-church.

  93. BL wrote:

    brian wrote:

    grief makes God a liar

    Jesus wept.

    Those people were wrong. We are to comfort those who mourn, not rebuke them.

    A time to mourn and a time to dance,

    Abraham went to mourn for Sarah and to weep over her.

    Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

    mourn with those who mourn.

    I will comfort those who mourn,

    Grief makes Driscoll a liar. Like another person here said, Calvinists like to make Osteen look like a fool, who is interpreting the Bible “straight out of context” but comments like Brian has shared actually downplays Driscoll’s own version of the prosperity gospel. I’m not going to pretend I know what goes on in Driscoll’s mind but what is evident is that he refuses to get a real person’s job; would he know how to do anything else other than extort money from upper middle class families? Would he know how to do anything else other than write more books – he apparently can’t do that well.

    Driscoll is what helped me see the red flags in the stories of my friends from First Baptist in Rocky Mount and Dennis Darville. Mark Driscoll is a rich case study of ministry-run-amuck.

  94. Burwell wrote:

    I went for a brief session with a counseling professor at SEBTS on one of the anniversary’s of the death of my 4 y/o daughter and was told to “stop looking backwards” and press on; the past is in the past and all that.

    Words fail when trying to describe how morally and spiritually wrong this “counsel” is. How can anyone who claims the name of Christ be so dismissive of your deep grief?

  95. Gram3 wrote:

    Burwell wrote:

    I went for a brief session with a counseling professor at SEBTS on one of the anniversary’s of the death of my 4 y/o daughter and was told to “stop looking backwards” and press on; the past is in the past and all that.

    Words fail when trying to describe how morally and spiritually wrong this “counsel” is. How can anyone who claims the name of Christ be so dismissive of your deep grief?

    Dear God …. there are no words

  96. brian wrote:

    The grief thing was really personal because I had alot of death in my family it seemed like I was always going on about this or that person dying and I admit it could get old, I mean I might discuss it ten or fifteen minutes during a prayer or personal meeting and I admit that is way overboard or I guess it was.

    Grief is grief. You have to get through it, not get over it.

    I read your posts and I feel for you, truly.

    I haven’t had half the bad things happen a lot of you have, but there are many nights I’ve cried and cried over things. Sometimes its necessary.

  97. I just clicked on the list of prayer supporters for Driscoll’s new church. Les and Leslie Parrott are still on there. I can’t imagine why. I’ve read some of their books on marriage, and they’re fairly egalitarian.

    It’s interesting how Driscoll founds churches himself so that he’s top dog instead of joining a denomination where he’d have someone over him who he’d have to answer to.

  98. @ Burwell:
    As the mother of two daughters, my heart breaks for you. Where is the compassion in the YRR camp? 🙂

    I’d love to know something about her if you’re so inclined.

  99. Burwell wrote:

    I went for a brief session with a counseling professor at SEBTS on one of the anniversary’s of the death of my 4 y/o daughter and was told to “stop looking backwards” and press on; the past is in the past and all that. Of course, Bible verses were used to support the statement. Needless to say, I rejected that premise.

    I pray for a blessing of peace for you and your family. I said a prayer for you.

    It grieves me terribly that SEBTS has changed so much. My experience with a counseling professor there was completely the opposite, but it was over 10 years ago. I just went and looked at their staff, and I don’t hardly recognize anyone, and most of the professors are very, very young. It makes me want to be like mirele and go stand outside the campus in Wake Forest and hold a sign for them to repent.

  100. ishy wrote:

    My experience with a counseling professor there was completely the opposite, but it was over 10 years ago.

    I agree, Ishy. The professor I am referring to is no longer there either. He has moved on to SWBTS, I believe.

    My favorite, and in my opinion the best they’ve ever had, was Paul Carlisle. He was the only ‘secularly’ trained counselor on staff while he was at SEBTS and he left to return to private practice. His classes were like therapy sessions, and if memory serves me correctly, they always had a wait list. Unfortunately, he left many, many years ago.

  101. @ Deb:

    Thank you Deb (and others). She passed away 13 years ago this year, so it is not a recent wound. I visited the counselor around the 5th anniversary of her death and received those great pearls of wisdom. Haha. Time does help, but it doesn’t erase … but so many here can attest to that!

    The story of our (my wife and I) daughter is a bit detailed. (The Man Behind the Curtain knows a bit and I believe he and his family met her years ago.) In summary, my wife was hit head-on by a woman who did not stop, or even slow down, for a stop sign; this was 6 days from the due date of our second daughter. My wife was airlifted to Duke where she and our daughter where their lives were saved. Unfortunately, our daughter (Avery) had lost oxygen and was born with Traumatic Brain Injury. Her prognosis was that she would “lay in the bed and grow” and while she did not ever get close to catching up developmentally, God allowed her to do so much more than that. She learned to see, hear, crawl a bit, eat solid foods for a brief time (usually she ate through a G-Tube), say mama and dada once or twice, and was always a joy to be around. However, her last year of life was marked by multiple and worsening battles with pneumonia. This weakened her to the point that she had a seizure which stopped her heart shortly after her 4th birthday. (Obviously this is a brief synopsis and probably a bit clinical. Sorry)

    My wife had to have right heel and facial reconstruction. She was told that she would never walk again and if she did, she would need to use ambulatory aids. Six months after the accident, though, she was dancing in a recital and the next month she water skied once. (She has never had to use any aid.) Other things have happened since then that could be seen as set backs (MS and Graves dx), but she and I are thankful for how much God has brought her through. 🙂

  102. Burwell wrote:

    I went for a brief session with a counseling professor at SEBTS on one of the anniversary’s of the death of my 4 y/o daughter and was told to “stop looking backwards” and press on; the past is in the past and all that.

    I can’t think of a more difficult loss to endure. Several centuries ago when you were ill, and if you could afford it, medical treatment might consist of bleeding you. Such quackery now would get someone a lawsuit or a prison sentence, hopefully the same can soon be said for the quackery of your supposed “counselor”.

  103. Friend wrote:

    Velour wrote:
    no critical thinking skills or Bereans allowed.
    At a glance I first read that as “no critical tithing skills.” Maybe those are needed too.

    Spot on.

  104. The House of Driscoll claims the assessment by the county is wrong. It appear the parcel is going to be split in two, with the gravel lot to the east of the church being hived off from the rest of the property. Even at 455,000 square feet, it’s still several million dollars.

    This, btw, is what the House of Driscoll says. I checked the Maricopa County Tax Assessor’s office and the parcel has not yet been split.

    http://m.christianpost.com/news/mark-driscolls-start-up-congregation-purchases-historic-church-building-arizona-166059/

    Evrn if it’s only 1/3 of the assessed value, that’s still $7 million. The buildings add up to around 26,000 square feet. If leased at a rock-bottom $12/square foot per year, that’s stll $26K a month. Plus HVAC, which is probably a few thousand dollars a month.

    None of this answers where he got the money.

  105. mirele wrote:

    The House of Driscoll claims the assessment by the county is wrong. I

    We’ve heard those words from Driscoll often. The “they” are always wrong according to Driscoll.

  106. siteseer wrote:

    Why repent if you don’t have to?

    Unfortunately, that appears to be the case. Evidently New Calvinists, or Charismatic Calvinists (in the case of Driscoll), have a totally different concept of repentance than I do.

  107. mirele wrote:

    stories of people who were badly hurt by Driscoll running over them … plagiarized from others … trying to game the New York Times bestseller list … And the list goes on. You can read it here: http://www.DespicableMarkDriscoll.com

    Soooo … what does it take to disqualify one from ministry?!

  108. Bridget wrote:

    We’ve heard those words from Driscoll often. The “they” are always wrong according to Driscoll.

    The parking lot on the west side of the church has only 150 spots in it. This number is not conducive to building a megachurch. Perhaps he intends to have overflow parking at the supermarket within walking distance of the church. Or perhaps it’s not going to be a megachurch at all. Perhaps it’s just a foundation for some new work that will get him back into the public eye and doesn’t have to be a huge operation with multiple sites.

    He still should not be there. He needs to go back to Seattle and fix his problem there.

  109. Gram3 wrote:

    Words fail when trying to describe how morally and spiritually wrong this “counsel” is.

    Calvinists view everything that comes into one’s life as “written” before the foundation of the earth, including salvation. When a Calvinist counselor looks through that grid in the case of losing a loved one, they can only offer “it was written, get over it, move on.” Some may be more loving than others when they present that to you, but that’s pretty much bottom line in reformed stinkin’ thinkin’. What love is this?!

  110. mirele wrote:

    He needs to go back to Seattle and fix his problem there.

    Genuine repentance should involve restoration … making right what you wronged in the lives of others. I have seen no demonstration of genuine repentance from Driscoll – he is making an unrepentant comeback. Lord knows he should repent of unleashing an army of macho, authoritarian, complementarian, reformed young whippersnappers who are still wreaking havoc on the church! And repent of causing a multitude of disillusioned church members at Mars Hill to drop out of church altogether. And repent of years of potty-mouth preaching. And etc. etc.

  111. Deb asked “Was any money from the now defunct Mars Hill Church used to fund the new church plant?”

    From an article in Charisma News: “Former members of the now-dissolved Mars Hill Church filed a racketeering lawsuit against controversial Pastor Mark Driscoll, alleging he ran the congregation like a ‘crime syndicate’ with another elder. The former members want to know where $30 million in their tithes went.”

    http://www.charismanews.com/us/55552-new-mark-driscoll-lawsuit-alleges-pastor-ran-church-like-crime-syndicate

  112. @ Max:

    Wondering if that money was put into some kind of fund to provide for “church planting” and Driscoll considers himself to be just “planting” a new church? Or some such scheme?

  113. @ linda:
    I honestly think it would take at least a year to debrief from the cult of personality and ingrained teaching.

  114. Max wrote:

    Soooo … what does it take to disqualify one from ministry?!

    I want to quote the famously God-fearing Edwin Edwards on what it takes to be disqualified, but I shall refrain…Clearly females are disqualified and males who get caught in “inappropriate” relationships. Probably misappropriating church funds would do the trick, though clearly the subject of this post has demonstrated that it is not a foolproof method of securing disqualification.

  115. linda wrote:

    I believe you come up with a God who is much stricter on right and wrong than either liberals or conservatives can dream of. And much more merciful for the repentant sinner.

    I used a different method for 3 years of detox (Gospels only, no sermons, etc) and came to the exact same conclusion.

  116. Max wrote:

    Some may be more loving than others when they present that to you, but that’s pretty much bottom line in reformed stinkin’ thinkin’. What love is this?!

    Do not get me started on the way that church people deal with the worst parts of life in a fallen world. Job’s friends with their Bibles turned to Romans 8:28 are with us still.

  117. linda wrote:

    If you haven’t had enough of the sheep beating pop over to Thom Rainers blog and read the article about dying churches.

    I mean, who knew refusing to put the words on a screen would kill a church?

    And I coulda had a V8. Or at least slapped myself upside the head for not thinking of that.

    The watchdog ran a piece a while back on Thom Ranier’s charging pastors by the month to ask him questions. He is one of the highest paid in SBC land. These guys have no class or shame.

  118. John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    Determinism is alive and well at Johns house.

  119. Muff Potter wrote:

    John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    That’s like saying…well…
    Basically it’s like saying that humans have no agency and can do nothing (nor should they) to try and improve their lot.

    Bingo. When their child gets sick do they say oh well it’s God’s will and if he wants her well….he will heal her.

    Not usually unless very fringe. But when it comes to the title pastor and a church they spout this determinist nonsense. It is very weird. Slap a plastic fish on it stuff.

  120. siteseer wrote:

    linda wrote:

    If you haven’t had enough of the sheep beating pop over to Thom Rainers blog and read the article about dying churches.

    I mean, who knew refusing to put the words on a screen would kill a church?

    And I coulda had a V8. Or at least slapped myself upside the head for not thinking of that.

    …and:

    “Unfortunately, good pastors and staff from all over are emotionally and verbally beaten up by church members.”

    “Criticism is the great distraction to the Great Commission.”

    Aww, the poor guys. They can sure dish it out but they can’t take it.

    For the low low price of 29.95/mo, Thom Ranier can tell pastors how to handle such things.

  121. No Lydia, you don’t know what rules my house. I quoted Scripture from Acts. I have learned in 44 years of being saved to trust God to handle things that I am unable to. I am at peace with His sovereign control over things I cannot change or impact. I am no fan of Mark Driscoll and think he needed years of rehab and accountability before entering public ministry. Like Perter, he blew it. But, Peter was restored. I do not know if his repentance is real or contrived. God is most capable of handling him. I think to take upon oneself to to protest his service is rude, unethical and not of God.
    Lydia wrote:

    John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    Determinism is alive and well at Johns house.

  122. mirele wrote:

    Or perhaps it’s not going to be a megachurch at all. Perhaps it’s just a foundation for some new work that will get him back into the public eye and doesn’t have to be a huge operation with multiple sites.

    This is what I was thinking. It will be a base for something larger.

  123. @ Burwell:
    I am so sorry. What a cruel thing to say. One manages the grief day to day until the other side. A precious promise of our King we will be reunited.

    Some friends in a YRR church were told by one of the pastors at the hospital the day their baby was born dead to move on and start planning their next child.

    Thank God they never went back to that church!

  124. When they heard this, they twere enraged and wanted to kill them. 34 But a Pharisee in the council named uGamaliel, va teacher of the law held in honor by all the people, stood up and gave orders to put the men outside for a little while. 35 And he said to them, “Men of Israel, take care what you are about to do with these men. 36 For wbefore these days Theudas rose up, xclaiming to be somebody, and a number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was killed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. 37 After him Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of ythe census and drew away some of the people after him. He too perished, and all who followed him were scattered. 38 So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for zif this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; 39 but aif it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You bmight even be found opposing God!”

  125. Lydia wrote:

    Some friends in a YRR church were told by one of the pastors at the hospital the day their baby was born dead to move on and start planning their next child.

    Good Lord!! Even their ESV Bibles say “Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep” (Romans 12:15).

  126. Lydia wrote:

    Thom Ranier’s charging pastors by the month to ask him questions

    I guess Thom hasn’t run across the following Scripture yet: “Freely you have received, freely give.”

  127. Gram3 wrote:

    “inappropriate” relationships.

    The way New Calvinist pastors control, manipulate and intimidate the pew is an inappropriate relationship to my way of thinking.

  128. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Some friends in a YRR church were told by one of the pastors at the hospital the day their baby was born dead to move on and start planning their next child.

    Good Lord!! Even their ESV Bibles say “Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep” (Romans 12:15).

    This particular pastor was part of an Acts 29 plant that has several campi. The pastor is the typical entitled over ripe boy who it seems has never faced real tragedy.

    I have seen what can happen when the YRR face real tragedy. They don’t get alot of support from their own. A few became atheists because their God foreordained it to happen. I don’t think we have even begun to see the eventual fallout from this movement.

  129. Lydia wrote:

    This is what I was thinking. It will be a base for something larger.

    Perhaps Driscoll is getting ready to launch a television ministry – using that facility as a production studio. One of his board members, Randal Taylor, is VP at a “Christian marketing, communications, and fundraising company … managing large media ministries … serves our clients in their television strategy … helping ministries optimize their media efforts to reach their ministry goals on a variety of networks and stations.”

  130. Lydia wrote:

    I honestly think it would take at least a year to debrief from the cult of personality and ingrained teaching.

    The best remedy for that is to get alone with Jesus in a wilderness place for a period of time and read the Bible in huge chunks – particularly read the red and pray for power.

  131. Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    This is what I was thinking. It will be a base for something larger.
    Perhaps Driscoll is getting ready to launch a television ministry – using that facility as a production studio. One of his board members, Randal Taylor, is VP at a “Christian marketing, communications, and fundraising company … managing large media ministries … serves our clients in their television strategy … helping ministries optimize their media efforts to reach their ministry goals on a variety of networks and stations.”

    And add satellite campuses to that….?

  132. There are so many red flags in Driscoll’s video. Here was one. I might be overthinking it.

    He thanks a lot of people for putting in 1000 hours (yes 1000 hours! seriously a 1000! Hours!) including someone doing the electrical and yet not one name is mentioned.

    Ok, might want to respect privacy and all but not even a first name? “Hey want to thank Jack for taking the lead with the electrical work!”

    Just strangers coming out of the woodwork, putting on work gloves (and putting in one….thousand…hours!)

    I haven’t seen the church in action but it just seems a whole lot of feathers and not much chicken.

    I guess the minions got the holiday weekend off but is it because the “minions” demand overtime?

    Be very interested to hear Mr. Wilhelm’s report and mirele’s continued updates.

  133. @ Burwell:

    That just breaks my heart. A child would always have a memorial in your heart. It is reprehensible that you had to listen to that man say that. There are things that we never totally move past, we just find a way to exist with those realities. If that man cannot understand that he needs to get a different job.

  134. Jack wrote:

    Be very interested to hear Mr. Wilhelm’s report and mirele’s continued updates.

    Look for my write up in about one week. I do my best work from the other side of the planet. Leaving for Dubai on Saturday!

  135. okrapod wrote:

    If that man cannot understand that he needs to get a different job.

    They YRR “pastors” in my area don’t do hospital visits – they delegate that to their elders, if it gets done at all. They won’t go see sick folks, but you can always find them hanging out in coffee shops! I guess somewhere in their training on how to do church, this wasn’t covered very well. Of course, a real pastor doesn’t have to be taught that.

  136. @ John:

    So we’re just supposed to do nothing?

    Seriously?

    You’re the guy who objected to me being out there in front of the House of Driscoll.

    I’m asking you now, Why?

    I am telling people the truth about Driscoll. I am asking them to consider that maybe they shouldn’t trust their spiritual lives to him.

    If people ask me, I make it clear that I am NOT saying “Don’t go to church.” I AM saying, “There are plenty of conservative churches in Scottsdale where you can be taught, where the church isn’t freighted with the baggage that comes from having a man at the head who has never apologized for all the disasters he left behind in Seattle.”

    So really…what are people supposed to do? Nothing, because your interpretation of the Bible is that Driscoll should not be confronted with his bad acts?

    And just to be clear, I’m out there for as long as I am able. And I have a lot of experience with a notorious cult, so my expectations of “long” are very long indeed.

  137. @ John:
    Whadda we need law enforcement officers, jails, and prisons for? Hey, if it isn’t God’s will, it ain’t gonna happen anyway!

  138. John wrote:

    No Lydia, you don’t know what rules my house. I quoted Scripture from Acts. I have learned in 44 years of being saved to trust God to handle things that I am unable to. I am at peace with His sovereign control over things I cannot change or impact. I am no fan of Mark Driscoll and think he needed years of rehab and accountability before entering public ministry. Like Perter, he blew it. But, Peter was restored. I do not know if his repentance is real or contrived. God is most capable of handling him. I think to take upon oneself to to protest his service is rude, unethical and not of God.
    Lydia wrote:
    John wrote:
    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.
    Determinism is alive and well at Johns house.

    Are John and I reading the same Bible? Mine has a passage that has Jesus coming into the temple and turning over tables of the money changers. (That’s what Mark Driscoll is.)

  139. I wish people would stop giving Driscoll money.

    Did Driscoll get the old, yellow fire truck he was asking for in one of his videos? And the “mid century styled” chairs?

  140. @ brian:

    Since my mother died, I’ve experienced some of what you were talking about – from church people and Christian family.

    American Christians really do not permit people to grieve – not in public, around others, not for a long time. You’re expected to get over the grief alone within maybe a handful of months. That is not how grief works.

    My family especially is bad about this – my dad, sister, and some of the aunts and uncles think it’s shameful or wrong to admit to hurting.

    I am sorry for your loss and that others weren’t there to comfort you afterwards

  141. John wrote:

    Why protest at his church?

    To bring awareness to people who may not otherwise realize what a terrible person and pastor M. Driscoll is.

  142. @ brian:

    I so relate. I’ve always been the type who needs to talk about whatever I’m going through (whatever stressful or painful thing), and that helps me cope. My mother was that person (she was my confidant).

    Then she died. I was badly needing/ wanting to talk to someone about the grief, so-

    I tried turning to church people, Christian family, etc, but they either blew me off or scolded me for coming to them for emotional help.

    I even tried to pace things so I would not talk “too much” about the grief. I would only call local aunts about once every 4 months, for 30 – 60 minutes (one aunt would monopolize every phone call, I never got a peep in).

    In spite of that, I was still told (or it was hinted) I was focusing too much on the grief, I should shut up, let it go, take my mind off it by throwing myself into busy work. That is not how one recovers from grief or emotional wounds.

    Even books I have by Christian psychiartists say it’s normal and healthy for you to want to talk about your grief (or whatever you’re going through).

    If you try to deny the pain or bottle it up, you will actually only prolong it, and/or it will come out in other ways.

    But I wanted to let you know I’ve gone through similar things, down to watching the clock while I was on the phone with family, timing myself to make sure I wasn’t going on too long. I know how people are. They come to view you as a burden after awhile.

    And I have not found many Christians in real life who actually practice the “weep with those who weep” verse from the New Testament.

  143. @ John:
    Your persistence in pursuing this reasoning reminds me of my initial reactions when I first learned about Driscoll. You see, I left an authoritarian church at about the same time that Mars Hill was imploding. Up until that time I was uninformed about what was happening within christendom.

    The very first first story I read was the abuse of the Petry’s and upon further reading I was appalled that so many christian “leaders” had looked the other way at his corruption and abuses, many even coddled Driscoll. I found the evidence had been overwhelming for a good deal of time before Mars Hill ended and I was surprised that it took so long. Thus began my education that finds much of modern churchianity is tolerant of or even fosters corruption.

    Looking back I now see Driscoll is one of those charlatans that does a poorer job of hiding his crookedness, so to me he is a type of negative lodestar. That his corruption demands an easy verdict reveals much about those who are unwilling to render that judgment.

  144. Christiane wrote:

    People don’t ‘get over it’ when a loved one passes. They miss the person. Grieving is a process that goes through many stages. It changes us irrevocably. The Church can reflect the work of the Holy Spirit, ‘the Comforter’, when it comes along side the bereaved member and offers a needed strengthening support.

    And that grief can last YEARS.

    If folks bother to check in with the bereaved, it is usually the first 6 months. However, with a lot of people, they need you AFTER the first 6 mos, like the first 2 – 4 years, especially on holidays or other important dates. But most people shuffle off, stop calling, stop dropping off the casseroles right when you need the support and attention the most.

    Americans, and Christians especially, really expect to hose in grief to
    1. Grieve all alone and
    2. Get Over the Death PRONTO.

    Also, the platitudes. I got platitudes out the wazoo after my mother died. I did not need or want platitudes. Or advice.

    I was looking for someone to just sit and listen to me cry and yak about my mother the first 2 – 4 yrs after she passed, and maybe send me a card every few months. But nobody did that stuff.

    I guess Americans just don’t like thinking about death. Seeing someone who is in grief reminds them of death, I guess.

  145. Gram3 wrote:

    Words fail when trying to describe how morally and spiritually wrong this “counsel” is. How can anyone who claims the name of Christ be so dismissive of your deep grief?

    I got a lot of stuff like that after my mother died.

    Someone I am related to also characterized my grief (my grief and deep pain) as being “self pity.” -Which I found deeply insulting. Had I gotten that comment earlier in my grief walk, it probably would have hurt.

    People (including people who profess belief in Jesus and attend church every week) say and do the dumbest, most insensitive things to you after your loved one has died.

  146. Burwell wrote:

    I went for a brief session with a counseling professor at SEBTS on one of the anniversary’s of the death of my 4 y/o daughter and was told to “stop looking backwards” and press on; the past is in the past and all that. Of course, Bible verses were used to support the statement. Needless to say, I rejected that premise.

    This book (by Christian psychiatrists) refutes that view:

    12 “Christian” Beliefs that Can Drive You Crazy: Relief from False Assumptions
    https://books.google.com/books/about/12_Christian_Beliefs_that_Can_Drive_You.html?id=89OkpdX6HYAC

    The book explains why that is not a biblical position.

    The topic is addressed in at least one chapter, possibly over a few – like Chapter 4 (Assumption 4) discusses it a little bit. Also, Chapter 6 (Assumption 6: “Leave the Past in the Past”) covers it.

    The book explains why it’s not biblical or true to think you have to leave the past in the past, etc. (and it quotes Bible verses to back up the points it makes).

  147. Gram3 wrote:

    Job’s friends with their Bibles turned to Romans 8:28 are with us still.

    I hate to be a broken record, but Rom 8.28 is one Bible verse I really hate now. I learned to hate it in the years after my mother’s passing. It’s a Christianized cliche’ given to people who are in pain.

  148. @ John:

    I don’t think picketing Driscoll is tantamount to opposing God.

    But I’m glad you didn’t toss in the classic moldy oldy Charismatic favorite, “touch not God’s annointed.”

  149. John wrote:

    I think to take upon oneself to to protest his service is rude, unethical and not of God.

    I can respect that this is something one person may feel called to do and another may not. But I don’t see anything rude or unethical, on the contrary, I am thankful for people like Mirele that go to such effort for the sake of someone else’s spiritual welfare. Is the Pharisee Gamaliel really to be our example? What about Ephesians 5:11- “Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them”?

  150. @ okrapod:

    Like I’ve said before, many of these guys have been stripped of their humanity. They can no longer hear people cry, much less any answer that might be blowin’ in the wind.

  151. Burwell wrote:

    I went for a brief session with a counseling professor at SEBTS on one of the anniversary’s of the death of my 4 y/o daughter and was told to “stop looking backwards” and press on; the past is in the past and all that.

    I am so sorry. I can’t imagine a loving parent being able to leave the death of a child “in the past” and “move on.” There are some things that will always be with a person, even if time dulls the sting. It is the love and support of others that makes loss bearable.

    I just really wonder about this mindset. I was at the grocery store today and a little boy fell down in front of the parents’ grocery cart and bumped his head. He started to cry like his little heart was broke. It was interesting that their first instinct was to get him to be quiet and forget about it and keep moving. It was a pretty typical reaction, they weren’t overtly unkind but obviously they did not want to be slowed down and were embarrassed that his crying drew attention. But I thought, how long would it take to bend down, give him a hug, carry him for a little bit, say oh, that must have hurt! I’m sorry that happened to you! instead of sshhh! I guess we keep doing this to each other as adults too? Hurry up and be quiet.

    I have seen a couple examples of church celebrities that have really put me off. I don’t mean to disrespect these people but they seemed to get on with rejoicing before the sorrow even manifested, all over social media right away trying to spin a terrible loss into something positive because of faith… it comes across instead as cold, unfeeling, unreal, even contempuous of the loved one who was lost. It is normal to grieve! It is human.

  152. Daisy wrote:

    Did Driscoll get the old, yellow fire truck he was asking for in one of his videos?

    Why doesn’t he just get a bus? He could place some manikins under the wheels for effect.

  153. John wrote:

    39 but aif it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You bmight even be found opposing God!”

    One other thing- the likelihood of opposing Driscoll turning out to be opposing God – heh, well it’s pretty funny, that’s all.

  154. brian wrote:

    No I did not but thats what people thought of me I still cant figure it out.

    Brian, I’m so sorry. I can’t figure it out, either, but I think you need some new friends, or at least I hope you have found some.

    I guess this is a big reason people go to therapists. We all need someone to talk to, someone who will listen and hear us non-judgmentally, and let us talk until some of the poison works its way out of our systems.

  155. John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    Dear Mr. Jenkins,

    If that’s the case, then why did you speak up here? After all, according to your logic (i.e. your interpretation of Gamaliel’s words), if what Mirele’s protest is of God, you cannot stop her. And if it isn’t, then God will stop her.

    Either way, why bother criticizing her?

  156. No, I never said that protesting Driscoll is opposing God. The touch not my anointed is often taken out of context and I don’t use that phrase for that reason.
    Daisy wrote:

    @ John:

    I don’t think picketing Driscoll is tantamount to opposing God.

    But I’m glad you didn’t toss in the classic moldy oldy Charismatic favorite, “touch not God’s annointed.”

  157. __

    “Prayer = Possible 501(c)3 Abusive Pastoral Removal?”

    hmmm…

      I would encourage all those inclined to pray, to pray for the Driscoll situation; that no harm would come to those who choose to attend his services. Prayer is, “once again” a necessary component in the equation of the removing an known abusive 501(c)3 religious ‘leader’ from the ‘christian’ pulpit. 

    ATB

    Sopy

  158. As stated on here, I am no fan of Driscoll and I believe any attempt at returning to public ministry is greatly premature at best. I simply stated a biblical principle that I believe applies. It is a matter of trusting God. I am by nature a confrontational person when I pastored. I exercised biblical discipline in my church with a view toward redemption.I however do not protest certain cults, false religions, certain denominations that are in error or distort the Scriptures that deceive people and by showing up at their services to disrupt them. I think this lady doing so must be a deeply compassionate and sensitive lady to do this but is somewhat misguided in her actions. Absolutely no disrespect toward her. Just my opinion on lessons God has taught me in my journey. When I was a young pastor, I once went to a motel to confront a woman in my church who was sleeping with her boss. I beat on the door and called him out. Bad mistake. I just believe wisdom should be exercised. If that does not work for others, then so be it. That is why I commented.

    Dear Mr. Jenkins,

    If that’s the case, then why did you speak up here? After all, according to your logic (i.e. your interpretation of Gamaliel’s words), if what Mirele’s protest is of God, you cannot stop her. And if it isn’t, then God will stop her.

    Either way, why bother criticizing her?

  159. Are you consistent in your confrontations? Do you protest others as well? Have you made any attempt to meet Driscoll and confront him. Respectfully, I think you take too much on yourself. But, I believe you to be a very compassionate individual. I was wondering if you are a regenerate Christian. I too, share your heart and convictions about people who deceive others and hinder their progress in the Lord. mirele wrote:

    @ John:

    So we’re just supposed to do nothing?

    Seriously?

    You’re the guy who objected to me being out there in front of the House of Driscoll.

    I’m asking you now, Why?

    I am telling people the truth about Driscoll. I am asking them to consider that maybe they shouldn’t trust their spiritual lives to him.

    If people ask me, I make it clear that I am NOT saying “Don’t go to church.” I AM saying, “There are plenty of conservative churches in Scottsdale where you can be taught, where the church isn’t freighted with the baggage that comes from having a man at the head who has never apologized for all the disasters he left behind in Seattle.”

    So really…what are people supposed to do? Nothing, because your interpretation of the Bible is that Driscoll should not be confronted with his bad acts?

    And just to be clear, I’m out there for as long as I am able. And I have a lot of experience with a notorious cult, so my expectations of “long” are very long indeed.

  160. Darlene wrote:

    If these celeb preacher boys have such discernment, wisdom, understanding, knowledge, etc. – why were they fooled when it came to Driscoll?… I wonder if any of them will publicly admit they were taken in – fooled – by Driscoll? So far….silence.

    I’m not so sure that they were fooled, Darlene, at least not regarding the kind of man Driscoll is. They probably knew perfectly well that he was a misogynist and a bully. The proof was there in his own words for years. But, because he preached the “right” doctrine (as you say), and because he was a cash cow, I imagine that they didn’t care. Even when he started hurting his own staff and elders, the Pied Piper and friends turned a blind eye — after all, it wasn’t any of them getting burned or run over.

    Now, if the Gospel™ Big Dogs assumed that their association with Driscoll would never hurt them, I think they’re feeling a bit like poor Ernie in this clip.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnaZzpdjQWo

    If Morris is assuming the same thing now, the same outcome awaits him.

  161. John wrote:

    God

    Strange. I am assuming you handle some things in your life and know that if we are capable, we actually have responsibility to do so. It seems when a christianese title is attached many automatically believe if God does not smite it or something, God approves.

    Your thinking is deterministic. Yoy might not have thought it through. I get that. God is also Sovereign over His own Sovereignty which means He is fully capable of allowing choice and expecting us to do what is right like helping victims of these “ministry” charlatans. And warning others about them.

    Driscoll proved himself disqualified. And Frankly, repentance would have included making a living outside ministry.

    I am thinking of all the evils we will answer for because we actually blamed God for them by claiming He would do something about them if he disapproved. He is asking how come we don’t grow up and at least warn others.

    There are basic right and wrong. It is not some mystery. Driscoll is a charlatan. A fraud. He is too obvious with years of patterns of behavior.

    What is it that really bothers you? That the bad stuff ministers do and call it Christian is written about here or protested? And that God will smite them if they are wrong?

    And ironically, Driscoll has proved himself rude and unethical as you have accused people here of being. And strangely enough you compare him to Peter and what you see as a parallel restoration as if God could care less about Driscoll’s victims he proudly threw under his bus. Even bragged about it.

    I don’t know your god and don’t want to but I do know he is taught in many a church now. He is Arbitrary and cruel.

  162. I am sorry you do not know my God. I have known Him since 1972 and He has filled my life with joy and meaning and I crave His presence daily. God is not arbitrary or cruel. He is glorious, just and good. I wish you a blessed day.
    Lydia wrote:

    John wrote:

    God

    Strange. I am assuming you handle some things in your life and know that if we are capable, we actually have responsibility to do so. It seems when a christianese title is attached many automatically believe if God does not smite it or something, God approves.

    Your thinking is deterministic. Yoy might not have thought it through. I get that. God is also Sovereign over His own Sovereignty which means He is fully capable of allowing choice and expecting us to do what is right like helping victims of these “ministry” charlatans. And warning others about them.

    Driscoll proved himself disqualified. And Frankly, repentance would have included making a living outside ministry.

    I am thinking of all the evils we will answer for because we actually blamed God for them by claiming He would do something about them if he disapproved. He is asking how come we don’t grow up and at least warn others.

    There are basic right and wrong. It is not some mystery. Driscoll is a charlatan. A fraud. He is too obvious with years of patterns of behavior.

    What is it that really bothers you? That the bad stuff ministers do and call it Christian is written about here or protested? And that God will smite them if they are wrong?

    And ironically, Driscoll has proved himself rude and unethical as you have accused people here of being. And strangely enough you compare him to Peter and what you see as a parallel restoration as if God could care less about Driscoll’s victims he proudly threw under his bus. Even bragged about it.

    I don’t know your god and don’t want to but I do know he is taught in many a church now. He is Arbitrary and cruel.

  163. Nancy2 wrote:

    @ John:
    Whadda we need law enforcement officers, jails, and prisons for? Hey, if it isn’t God’s will, it ain’t gonna happen anyway!

    From what I have been able to ascertain from my years around this bizarre thinking is their god excuses only the bad behavior of pastors and ministry types.

  164. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    I’m not so sure that they were fooled, Darlene, at least not regarding the kind of man Driscoll is. They probably knew perfectly well that he was a misogynist and a bully. The proof was there in his own words for years. But, because he preached the “right” doctrine (as you say), and because he was a cash cow, I imagine that they didn’t care.

    Bingo. Early on the rank and file YRR were smitten with Driscoll. He was a manly man to them and MH was growing fast in an “unchurched” city as Driscoll liked to constantly brag. The YRR leaders saw the money opportunity to partner with him. Now his hateful DNA is all over thousands of church plants. He is a showman. A reprobate that teaches sodomy in marriage. I always wonder how many marriages he broke up with his ridiculous misogyny.

    Driscoll even threw his first partner in Acts 29 under the bus n the early days. The list of cruelty and using people for his own advancement is too long. Most have forgotten the half of it. That is how bad it is.

    The YRR pretend Mark never existed.

  165. John wrote:

    No, I never said that protesting Driscoll is opposing God. The touch not my anointed is often taken out of context and I don’t use that phrase for that reason.

    Yet you quoted this in the post I was referencing:

    ….So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for zif this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; 39 but aif it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You bmight even be found opposing God!”

    What was the point in alluding to that in your post in a discussion of someone picketing Driscoll if not to say the picketing Driscoll was the same as opposing God

  166. Lydia wrote:

    From what I have been able to ascertain from my years around this bizarre thinking is their god excuses only the bad behavior of pastors and ministry types.

    Well, Driscoll isn’t female, so there’s that. Those other plain and clear elder qualifications are totally optional. 😉

  167. Daisy wrote:

    The Bible also instructs people (Christians in particular) to call out wolves in sheeps clothing and false teachers.

    Folks like John are the perfect targets of New Calvinism and other assorted aberrations. They submit to, trust, and never question church leaders. As you note, this is anti-Biblical behavior – a mandate for believers is to test and try the spirits you are exposed to. Whenever I’ve been tempted to steer in a certain direction during my Christian journey, I have a protective mechanism that pops into my spirit “When in doubt, don’t.” There is a whole lot going on in the name of Christianity these days which should cause doubt in the minds of those being drawn to it. New Calvinism claims to be the last bastion of orthodoxy in the church, but continues to demonstrate unorthodox belief and practice when examined in the light of the whole of Scripture. The latest hubbub over ESS is but one example. And Driscoll … well, enough has been said and written about him. When in doubt, don’t!

  168. @ John:

    John, Mirele isn’t “disrupting” anyone’s worship time. She’s not barging into the church, or banging on doors, or shouting at congregants in the parking lot. I’m sure she knows better than that, having dealt with Scientology (with whom the House of Driscoll has at least a few similarities). Mirele is simply standing on the sidewalk — which is public space — holding a sign detailing Driscoll’s unethical and dishonest behaviour. Anyone who is willing to give this guy money should be informed before they decide to do so, and Mirele is trying to make sure that they are.

    John wrote:

    I just believe wisdom should be exercised. If that does not work for others, then so be it. That is why I commented.

    That’s fine. But if you’re allowed to criticize Mirele, then she’s allowed to publicly criticize Driscoll. Fair’s fair.

  169. Daisy wrote:

    In spite of that, I was still told (or it was hinted) I was focusing too much on the grief, I should shut up, let it go, take my mind off it by throwing myself into busy work. That is not how one recovers from grief or emotional wounds.

    A lot of people do use that as a way to recover, though. I do. Throw myself into something else, distract, distract, distract, until I can deal with the pain. So maybe they meant well.

  170. Max wrote:

    Folks like John are the perfect targets of New Calvinism and other assorted aberrations. They submit to, trust, and never question church leaders.

    In his defence, John has said that Driscoll is likely not ready for ministry yet, and that’s best case scenario. So, he’s not some unquestioning zombie.

  171. Perhaps it is opposing God. Perhaps God is giving Driscoll this opportunity to once and for all expose his unrighteous deeds and eventually come out of public ministry altogether. God gives grace but if Driscoll is not repentant and restorative, God may be giving him rope to hang himself and put and end to his ministry Daisy wrote:

    John wrote:

    No, I never said that protesting Driscoll is opposing God. The touch not my anointed is often taken out of context and I don’t use that phrase for that reason.

    Yet you quoted this in the post I was referencing:

    ….So in the present case I tell you, keep away from these men and let them alone, for zif this plan or this undertaking is of man, it will fail; 39 but aif it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You bmight even be found opposing God!”

    What was the point in alluding to that in your post in a discussion of someone picketing Driscoll if not to say the picketing Driscoll was the same as opposing God

  172. Wow Max. I did not know that we are so intimately acquainted that you can pass judgment on me that I am a candidate for the new Calvinism and that I never question church leaders.
    Max wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    The Bible also instructs people (Christians in particular) to call out wolves in sheeps clothing and false teachers.

    Folks like John are the perfect targets of New Calvinism and other assorted aberrations. They submit to, trust, and never question church leaders. As you note, this is anti-Biblical behavior – a mandate for believers is to test and try the spirits you are exposed to. Whenever I’ve been tempted to steer in a certain direction during my Christian journey, I have a protective mechanism that pops into my spirit “When in doubt, don’t.” There is a whole lot going on in the name of Christianity these days which should cause doubt in the minds of those being drawn to it. New Calvinism claims to be the last bastion of orthodoxy in the church, but continues to demonstrate unorthodox belief and practice when examined in the light of the whole of Scripture. The latest hubbub over ESS is but one example. And Driscoll … well, enough has been said and written about him. When in doubt, don’t!

  173. mirele wrote:

    The parking lot on the west side of the church has only 150 spots in it. This number is not conducive to building a megachurch. Perhaps he intends to have overflow parking at the supermarket within walking distance of the church. Or perhaps it’s not going to be a megachurch at all. Perhaps it’s just a foundation for some new work that will get him back into the public eye and doesn’t have to be a huge operation with multiple sites.

    This is an impressive looking church and site.

    http://www.google.com/maps/@33.5238935,-111.8957747,3a,75y,39.23h,85.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSmRt67ALp0uuaQJSxD1-vQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

  174. Daisy wrote:

    I wish people would stop giving Driscoll money.

    Did Driscoll get the old, yellow fire truck he was asking for in one of his videos? And the “mid century styled” chairs?

    I don’t know if he can get an “old” fire truck. The yellow fire trucks he sees around town are owned by the private fire/EMS company Rural/Metro (subject of a scathing report in the NYTimes about 10 days ago). I’m not sure they’re up to selling a truck to Driscoll.

    As for the mid-century modern chairs, I’ll leave that to Todd to tell us what he’s got in there now.

  175. John wrote:

    I think this lady doing so must be a deeply compassionate and sensitive lady to do this but is somewhat misguided in her actions. Absolutely no disrespect toward her. Just my opinion on lessons God has taught me in my journey.

    It’s not misguided to present people with the truth about Mark Driscoll.

  176. John wrote:

    Are you consistent in your confrontations? Do you protest others as well? Have you made any attempt to meet Driscoll and confront him. Respectfully, I think you take too much on yourself. But, I believe you to be a very compassionate individual. I was wondering if you are a regenerate Christian. I too, share your heart and convictions about people who deceive others and hinder their progress in the Lord.

    John,

    Do I picket others? You betcha.

    Scientology knows who I am. They call me a “religious bigot” because I used to (back in the day when Scientology was considered just “weird”) show up and picket out in front of their shops. I was rather blunt. I carried a sign with a picture of Lisa McPherson, which read, “Young. Pretty. Dead.” (She died in Scientology’s care in 1995.)

    I’ve had my home picketed by Scientologists. I had my neighborhood plastered with my picture and the legend “Religious Bigot” by Scientologists. (That last backfired when I got on the radio as a result.) Scientology claims I am under a court order issued by a judge in circa 2001 which would limit my ability to walk around downtown Clearwater, Florida, were I to go back there. (I am not named in the order, nor is the organization the order was originally issued against still in existence.)

    So the answer is No, Driscoll is not my only target. I’ve been doing this for a long time. (I got my picture on the front page of the Austin American-Statesman for picketing a local grocery store around 1990, and back in 1982, my professors knew why I skipped class when again I showed up at a South Africa divestment protest and ended up on the front page of the campus paper.)

    As for your inquiry about my religious belief, I am not going to answer that, because it doesn’t matter. I am only out there to talk about Mark Driscoll. It is not about me. I present the information to people, I give them a website link, and then they can make up their minds as to whether I’m telling the truth or full of it. And, seriously, my religious beliefs do.not.matter. if I am telling the truth about Mark Driscoll. I could be a stone cold atheist or practitioner of voodoo, but that doesn’t change the facts about what Mark Driscoll has done and said.

    As for attempting to meet Driscoll, if the people who filed the RICO suit against him can’t seem to get him served, why on earth would you expect that I would be able to talk to him? I’m out on the sidewalk in front of his church every Sunday. He can step 100 yards and come talk to me. But neither he nor his assistant pastors or the people wearing the official “The Trinity Church” lanyards have taken the opportunity to come out and talk to me.

  177. Lea wrote:

    A lot of people do use that as a way to recover, though. I do. Throw myself into something else, distract, distract, distract, until I can deal with the pain. So maybe they meant well.

    Well, that is fine, and it seems to be an approach that works for my father, but it does not work for me.

    Throwing myself into busy work or volunteering at charities doesn’t help me cope with the inner pain.

    I am the sort of person who needs to talk about the grief to process it and heal from it, but most in my family think I should stuff the pain down and just live life.

    If other people cope by throwing themselves into hobbies or jobs, fine by me, but they won’t extend me the courtesy of being sympathetic to how I deal with stuff.

  178. mirele wrote:

    I’ve had my home picketed by Scientologists

    Crazy!

    Freshman year there was a girl on my dorm who apparently joined the scientologists and dropped out of school that summer. There was a church that used to hand out fliers in DuPont, I think, and I had no idea what they were at the time. That was basically my first experience.

    Also, I thought John was being sarcastic in his first comment, but apparently not!

  179. Daisy wrote:

    I am the sort of person who needs to talk about the grief to process it and heal from it

    I get that, I just wanted to say that it is how some people process. Frankly, if something really upsets me I literally can’t talk about it. I will just cry. Stupid weepiness I inherited from my mother that doesn’t suit my personality at all!

  180. Patriciamc wrote:

    It sounds like his church has bouncers.

    They’re called “Armorbearers” in Christianese.
    “Enforcers” everywhere else.

  181. Sopwith wrote:

    P.S. Isn’t it so ‘wonderful’ that Driscoll has Reverend Robert Morris ta ‘pray’ repercussions to your house if you don’t make good with the 10% pre-tax membership surcharge Ahem! Tithe.

    Protection Racket with God as Don Driscollone’s Luca Brasi?

  182. ishy wrote:

    It’s amazing to me how many of God’s self-proclaimed speshul snowflakes get called to the richest suburbs in the country.

    Furtick Mansions, Lamborghini Collections, and private Gulfstreams are expensive.

  183. ishy wrote:

    Velour wrote:

    Isn’t “speshul snowflakes” a H.U.G.-ism?

    It’s commonly used among fiction writers for a Mary Sue character

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

    Didn’t know that, and I’ve been eyebrow-deep in MLP:FIM fanfic for a couple years.

    But it makes a whole lotta sense.

  184. Muff Potter wrote:

    John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    That’s like saying…well…

    “IN’SHAL’LAH…”

  185. Max wrote:

    Soooo … what does it take to disqualify one from ministry?!

    Being born without a (Male only appendage ed.).

  186. John wrote:

    I am sorry you do not know my God. I have known Him since 1972 and He has filled my life with joy and meaning and I crave His presence daily. God is not arbitrary or cruel. He is glorious, just and good. I wish you a blessed day.

    Christianese Buzzword Bingo!

  187. Lea wrote:

    I get that, I just wanted to say that it is how some people process. Frankly, if something really upsets me I literally can’t talk about it. I will just cry. Stupid weepiness I inherited from my mother that doesn’t suit my personality at all!

    I hope my post did not come across catty to you – I was not picking on you.

    Any anger I have about this topic is aimed most at Christians I’ve known or are related to in my real life / personal life.

    I’ve tried explaining to some of them – the ones whose preferred method is to Ignore pain, Stuff It Down, and bury it in a job – that I handle pain or grief by talking through it.

    Even though I have explained this to them, they don’t care. They keep pushing their methods on to me and shaming me for wanting to seek help or speak up about what I’m going through.

  188. Daisy wrote:

    I hope my post did not come across catty to you – I was not picking on you.

    Not at all! Just felt like chiming in.

    Actually I had a bad relationship deal last year and I’m only now at the point where I can actually talk about it, so I’ve been sending stuff to a family member and a friend occasionally when I want to vent.

  189. brian wrote:

    Yes people say that often it is muted sort of like this
    fully knowing Im a public school teacher
    Public schools are teaching our children (fill in the blank) and have an agenda against God. And the teachers are liberal and against God or pro gay fill in the blank.

    1) Thank you for teaching. That is one heroic profession.

    2) Story telling is a crucial part of grieving. I don’t know anyone who can recover from a loved one’s traumatic death without telling and retelling what happened.

  190. Burwell wrote:

    I went for a brief session with a counseling professor at SEBTS on one of the anniversary’s of the death of my 4 y/o daughter and was told to “stop looking backwards” and press on; the past is in the past and all that. Of course, Bible verses were used to support the statement.

    Such anniversaries are so important. It grieves me that you were treated so shabbily in your sadness.

  191. One of the toughest truths about grief is that everybody has it, handles it differently, and does it at their own pace.

    Makes it devilishly hard to truly aid each other. For someone who needs more than six months, friends and family may be dealing with new griefs and issues and have good reason for moving on. Doesn’t make it hurt less, just is what it is.

    A few years ago my mom died, mom in law died two months later, best friend’s daughter died about four months after that, several church friends died, along with all of us having extended family die.

    We all did our best, but sadly, I’m sure we left some feeling like Daisy. Each of us had so much on our plate to handle we really couldn’t be all the others needed.

    Our wonderful pastor advised us all to “do the dishes” (what must be done), then help what you could (with you the only judge of what that was), but to also realize the church was there to proclaim Christ, not make sure we were all well adjusted, fulfilled, happy, not lonely, etc.

    Very freeing.

  192. @ linda:

    The family I went to were mostly retired, had / have lots of free time, were in good health at the time. They had no recent deaths in the family (other than my mother) to deal with.

    Part of it is that my family thinks that expressing negative emotions or admitting to having such is shameful. If you are hurting, they believe you are to plant a fake smile on your face and act OK even though you are not.

    Many of the rest of them were too selfish to bother being there for me.

    Christians at a local church loved to give platitudes rather than grieve with me.

    Honestly, I tried to come up with good reasons why all these people let me down, but there are none.

    I had one Aunt who was like 81 when I moved here, in some kind of dementia, her health going down the tubes ~ I did not expect her in her condition to be there for me, because she had a full plate.

    But the other folks I went to? No, they didn’t have anything going on in their lives at the time.

    I also let them know point blank I needed support and the kind of support. They knew. They didn’t have to guess or claim ignorance.

    Some people are just selfish and can’t be bothered to weep w/ those who weep, or they don’t have the patience to deal w/ wounded people.

  193. Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    In his defence, John has said that Driscoll is likely not ready for ministry yet, and that’s best case scenario. So, he’s not some unquestioning zombie.

    Agreed. If John has concerns about Driscoll’s fit for ministry, then he is demonstrating discernment rather than an unquestioning attitude typical of so many Driscoll followers and supporters. My comment about John was out of line.

  194. linda wrote:

    but to also realize the church was there to proclaim Christ, not make sure we were all well adjusted, fulfilled, happy, not lonely, etc.

    I just caught that part of your statement. I disagree.

    The Bible does actually teach that some of the functions of the church family are to provide companionship (e.g., the Jesus recognized that not all would marry and have a spouse for companionship), and to help each other during times of financial or emotional struggle. The church is to weep with those who weep.

    The church was not founded only to share the Gospel.

    Now, the reality of the situation is that 99% of the Christians are terrible at actually doing what the Bible says – they won’t weep w/ those who weep, for instance – so I now have lowered expectations.

    I no longer expect Christians to be there for me, help me out, etc. I now expect Christians to disregard what the Bible says. I expect Christians to fail and not be there for me.

    I think that’s actually a sad commentary on American Christianity.

  195. @ John:
    John, as I noted in my upstream response to “Serving Kids in Japan”, my comment was out of line. I apologize.

  196. God bless you my friend and your sweet spirit!Max wrote:

    @ John:
    John, as I noted in my upstream response to “Serving Kids in Japan”, my comment was out of line. I apologize.

  197. Christiane wrote:

    Was Mars Hill left in arrears?

    Apparently, there is $10,000,000 to $20,000,000 that remains unaccounted for after Driscoll abandoned Mars Hill and headed south. Some MH donors filed a federal racketeering lawsuit to try to discover what happened to all those tithes, offerings, and real estate sales proceeds, but they ran out of money for legal fees and it looks as if the lawsuit is going to be dismissed, so we may never know what really happened to all that loot.

  198. @ linda:

    I’ve thought some more about Linda’s reply since yesterday, and it strikes me how terribly insensitive it was.

    You, linda, were discounting my experience, which is pretty cold.

    Not just my experience, but I was posting about my mother’s passing (and its aftermath) in response to two other individuals on this thread (Burwell was one, Brian another) who also experienced loss in their families.

    Burwell wrote of the insensitive response he got from a Christian counselor he sought out on the anniversary of his daughter’s death.

    Here is his post about that:
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/07/04/mark-driscoll-says-god-provided-our-church-family-a-home/#comment-265778

    I am absolutely dumbfounded that you, linda, would choose to respond as you did about my posts – (would you tell say the same things about Brian’s and Burwell’s situations that you did mine?).

    There was no empathy or sympathy in your response.

    There really is no excuse for how Burwell’s grief was dismissed by his counselor, or how Brian didn’t feel comfortable sharing his grief with Christian friends.

    Nor did my Christian family or acquaintances in my real life have any excuse for mistreating me or brushing me aside during my time of grief (something which I explained more of in another thread on top of this one).

    My Christian friends and family were not too busy or under-going difficulty in their own lives at the time of my mother’s death, and in the years that followed it (as you were apparently assuming).

    (I actually made it a point NOT to contact family or friends for support, ones who I knew were sick or facing other problems.)

    Not everyone handles and responds to tragedy in life the same way, either, as you seem to think is the case.

    If you’re the same “linda” who posted here in the past, I recall you were highly insensitive and dismissive of my issues months ago –

    When I wrote about how horribly Christians and churches marginalize adult, single women. You made it more than clear you are fine with church people mistreating adult, single women.

    To quote actress Jennifer Aniston’s long ago quote about her ex, Brad Pitt, and apply it to you (because I think it’s very fitting): you lack a sensitivity chip.

  199. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Muff Potter wrote:

    John wrote:

    Why protest at his church? If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. if it is not of God, He will end it.

    That’s like saying…well…

    “IN’SHAL’LAH…”

    EXACTLY!

  200. To Whom It May Concern:

    A wolf is Bad News, totally disconnected from God’s Good News.

    A wolf. is. not. SAFE.

    Feeding, following, financing or believing a wolf is injurious to youself and everyone you hold dear.

    A wolf is not a sheep, nor a shepherd, nor a godly brother or sister in Christ, nor a “backsliding” brother or sister in Christ, nor a minister of God’s flock, nor one a minister of God’s Gospel.

    A wolf devours, damages, and destroys.

    A wolf by any other guise or name or title or position is still a wolf.

    Keep everything you love away from a wolf.

    A wolf. is. not. S.A.F.E.

  201. Think I’m wolf-bashing? (poor, persecuted wolfie)

    4 words: Little Red Riding Hood

    I rest my case.

    A wolf is not “Grandma.”

  202. linda wrote:

    Our wonderful pastor advised us all to “do the dishes” (what must be done), then help what you could (with you the only judge of what that was), but to also realize the church was there to proclaim Christ, not make sure we were all well adjusted, fulfilled, happy, not lonely, etc.

    I’m with Daisy on this one, Linda.

    What exactly does ‘proclaiming Christ’ look like in life if it’s just a bunch of words and not lived out in actions? Love is an action verb.

    Yes, there are church members who are going through their own challenges, have losses,
    and don’t have anything to give another person. But what about everybody else?

    The “suck it up buttercup” mentality is heartless and cruel. That is NOT how the Christian faith is to be lived out.

    I was always shocked at my former NeoCalvinist church how many hurting members that there were and I spent time with them in person, on the phone, etc. I just helped them. They told me confidences they wouldn’t tell another soul.

    I was grieved at what an isolating experience the church is for so many.

    Hugs to you, Daisy. Losing your dear Mama was a big deal.

  203. Velour wrote:

    I was grieved at what an isolating experience the church is for so many.
    Hugs to you, Daisy. Losing your dear Mama was a big deal.

    Thank you. That means a lot.

    It’s responses or attitudes such as hers or her pastor that has played a role in my faith crisis.

    It also reminds me of this, from the book of James:

    “If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?” (James 2:16)

  204. Stan wrote:

    Do you know who has lots of money? Robert Morris.

    Looks like he may have to fund a reboot for Perry Noble now too.

  205. Bill M wrote:

    Looks like he may have to fund a reboot for Perry Noble now too.

    As John reminded us all upstream “If this thing is of God you cannot stop it. If it is not of God, He will end it.”

    I understand there will be an announcement on Perry Noble’s status at NewSpring Church tomorrow.

  206. Velour wrote:

    You’re welcome, Daisy.
    I can see why so many people throw up their hands and have a crisis in faith.

    One other thing that crossed my mind.

    Assuming this is the same Linda who tangled with me months ago (where she made it plain she is okay with churches marginalizing adult, single women, because she thinks we’re threats to married men) – she is married.

    After she lost family members, she at least had a spouse to go to. I had nobody after my mother passed away.

    I’ve never married, so I don’t have a spouse I can lean on or talk to. I broke up with my ex fiance years ago, so I couldn’t talk to him.

    My older sister is a verbally abusive bully, so I couldn’t talk to her or count on her for much of anything.

    My other sibling has been estranged for years. He hardly ever calls or phones, even if you try to reach him. So, I can’t go to him.

    So, if Linda has a husband, siblings, neighbors, other family, or church friends she can talk to after deaths in her family, she is way, waaay ahead of me.

    When I say I had to cope with the death in my family all alone, I am not exaggerating.

    I also had to move to a new city/state after my mother passed, and other than extended family (who basically ignore me), I don’t know anyone in this city.

    I think it’s cruel to tell someone they shouldn’t expect other people (especially Christians) to be there for them in a crisis, as though that is a Biblical teaching.

    In the years since my mother’s passing, I can see that most Christians are in fact very selfish, so I do now expect them to be that way. But I don’t see that the Bible tells them to be that way.

    The Bible actually does say that Christians are to be there for other Christians, that the church does not exist solely to spread the Gospel. I have no idea what kind of pastor Linda has who teaches that stuff.

    Aside from the Bible telling believers to “weep with those who weep” (i.e., offer emotional support), it also notes that the early Christians helped each other financially (this is from Bible Gateway’s site):

    The Jerusalem Collection Paul faced many of these same challenges in his own day.

    Although he did not request personal support, he spent close to ten years soliciting funds for what is commonly referred to as the Jerusalem collection.

    This was a collection he took up among the Gentile churches to help Judean believers who were facing harder than usual economic times as a result of a famine during the mid to late 40s.

    Paul and Barnabas made an initial famine-relief visit to Jerusalem in A.D. 46 and delivered a monetary gift from the church at Antioch (Acts 11:29-30).

    At that time the Jerusalem church expressed the hope that the believers associated with Paul would continue to remember the Judean believers, which Paul was more than eager to do (Gal 2:10).

    And: Galatians 6:10:

    Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

    Linda’s preacher sounds as though he is not familiar with the Bible.

  207. Bill M wrote:

    Perry Noble

    Speaking of Perry Noble, he posted a rather feeble defense of Mark Driscoll’s unrepentant comeback on Facebook by drawing on the story of another Mark (the Gospel of Mark), noting that Gospel Mark had walked away from ministry, but was later restored by the disciples. Now, that is a tremendous stretch to compare Gospel Mark with Macho Mark! (Of course, New Calvinists are famous for stretching Scripture). There is nothing in Scripture to let us know why Gospel Mark walked away, but there are plenty of facts about Driscoll’s departure from Mar’s Hill. He did not walk away – he was fired … nothing in Scripture about Gospel Mark’s potty-mouth preaching … nothing about Gospel Mark plagiarizing his gospel book … nothing about throwing his followers under the chariot … nothing about using ministry funds to raise the ratings on his gospel book … etc.

    Yep, Rev. Noble should have just left that alone – anyone in their right spiritual minds can see right through that analogy. Are followers of New Calvinism in their right spiritual minds? Scripture talks about folks who follow aberration and drift into apostasy: “For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false” (2 Thessalonians 2:11). TWW continues to report on deluding influences in New Calvinism. When will this madness end?!

  208. Max wrote:

    “For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false” (2 Thessalonians 2:11).

    Methinks Driscoll and Noble qualify as deluding influences. So maybe John is right upstream, God may be using them, but that still doesn’t mean we sit on our behinds to say or do nothing.

  209. Bill M wrote:

    Methinks Driscoll and Noble qualify as deluding influences.

    Those who exercise eisegesis of Scripture to make it fit a theological grid or personal agenda, or who dilute the truth to make it “culturally-relevant” are indeed deluding influences.

    There’s been a lot of criticism about “elder-rule” church governance, but in the case of both Driscoll and Noble, the elders finally stepped up to the plate and did what was right … even if it was a little late. However, the elders at NewSpring went a step farther than the folks at Mars Hill when they stated that Nobel was “no longer qualified to continue as pastor.” Nobel, in his statement to the church, appears broken over his sin and has expressed sorrow for it. Driscoll left Mars Hill unrepentant and has set up shop again.

    Folks like this are “successful” in ministry because their congregations prefer their style of preaching, which stretches Christian liberties beyond their Biblical bounds. There would be no celebrity preachers of this sort if it weren’t for a pew which props them up. There’s not much preaching these days about holiness and purity because there aren’t many preachers who live that way. Church folks look for pastors who are just like them, rather than Christlike. The 21st century church ain’t your grandma’s church which proclaimed and demonstrated a higher standard of living.

  210. Mark Driscoll is the best preacher of God’s truth that I’ve ever heard! God bless him in his new endeavor — hopefully he’s learned from his mistakes……Shame on those who would spread discord (Prov. 6:16-19) by protesting against a Bible preaching church. Absolutely ridiculous!

  211. The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. Someone once said that heresy can be an overemphasis of a long-neglected truth. Even the “grace” message can be stretched beyond its Biblical bounds.

  212. DT wrote:

    Mark Driscoll is the best preacher of God’s truth that I’ve ever heard! God bless him in his new endeavor — hopefully he’s learned from his mistakes……Shame on those who would spread discord (Prov. 6:16-19) by protesting against a Bible preaching church. Absolutely ridiculous!

    Is this post for real? Or is this a POE?

  213. Daisy wrote:

    Is this post for real?

    I keep waiting for comments from William Wallace II. Driscoll once posted comments under that name to conceal his identity when defending himself on blogs critical of his “ministry.” True story.

  214. Does anyone know if Driscoll was quoted in The Gospel Project prior to his fall from Mars Hill?