I think it’s interesting that even after talking with Jonathan Leeman on Twitter, 9Marks has my former suing church as a “9Marks church.”

Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised.

Dear Wealthy Non-Christian Benefactor of 9 Marks (aka 9Marxist/Hotel California),

So we’ve heard from Anon you made an investment to fund the authoritarian, abusive, toxic, dysfunctional 9Marks.

Mark Devers’ abusive practices have spread to churches across the U.S. and around the globe. That also includes brutal excommunications and shunnings of godly Christians, all ages and professions (including the elderly and conservatives) for the slightest dissent. Churches have been destroyed, believers’ reputations, friendships, families. You can’t undo this kind of damage.

Are you now willing to fund psychotherapy, medical care, and vacations for all of those that 9Marks harmed?

You funded destruction. And it’s NOT funny.

Deb wrote:

Do you remember these posts we did mere weeks after launching TWW?

Deb, I can barely remember what I had for breakfast. 🙂

Our family lost our shirt in 2000. We didn’t know our giving was being spent that way. I always thought the conferences paid for themselves?

The “excellence” teaching many would say was the most spiritually harmful teaching they received. CJ taught a six tape series on Pursuing Excellence in the late 70’s or early 80’s. As usual, he used mockery to shame people who were not excellent.

His standard of required excellence was perfection. Many a servant had their livelihood snatched from them for making a mistake while serving. EVERYTHING had to be perfect. Many souls sat idle because they could not attain perfection. When someone failed, they were privately and/or publicly rebuked for their mistake or “lack of gifting”. That had nothing to do with their spirituality. Worship leaders, secretaries, care group leaders…all were required to be perfect.

That’s why you often hear CLC people today somewhat dumbstruck that they were rebuked for minor offenses and Nate Morales got a pass.

Somehow, one leader’s “excellence obsession” was equated with “holiness” and being perfect became a spiritual pass or fail.

The most damaging teaching to the children raised in the church would be the “perfection teaching”. Perfect obedience. Immediately. Willingly. Cheerfully.

Excessively honor the models. Shun those who fell short.

Requiring perfection from others is a primary characteristic of a cultic leader.

a non-Christian ‘neighbor’

well, good to know it was about money all along, but what was ‘replicated’ and how did the favor get repaid?

oh gosh, Flannery O’Connor was right all along that sometimes people have hold of the wrong horror

I’m terrified of what the pay-back may have included, and I hope it wasn’t the first thought that came into my mind. God forgive me my judgmental ways. And God protect the children from the greed of those who shelter predators. So much wickedness . . . and all for money. God have mercy.

Deb wrote:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/04/09/the-shepherding-movement-%E2%80%93-reformed-revamped-reee-diculous/

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/04/14/the-shepherding-movement-reformed-revamped-reee-diculous%C2%A0-part-two-%C2%A0/

I just read through these and I am sick to my stomach. This is satanic, there is no other description for it.

How pathetically insufficient CJ Mahaney’s system was in terms of his personal life.

I feel sick to think of the sincere believers caught in this trap and pray that God would set them free.

OK, I’ve calmed down (a tiny bit.) Mr. Gilbert, your words above seem to indicate that with your experience of the fancy box and the professionally designed products, you believe SOVEREIGN GRACE CHURCHES to have been an example of an excellent church.

Gift baskets and lavishing gifts is NOT what an excellent church looks like. Here’s what an excellent church looks like:

It doesn’t spend a penny unnecessarily so that MORE money can go to the lost and the broken. An excellent church is feeding the homeless. An excellent church is in the hospitals visiting the sick. An excellent church is in the homes of the elderly tending to their broken hearts. An excellent church is clothing the needy, tutoring in after school programs, in the prisons, at courts loving victims, etc.

How you think any of what you experienced could even begin to compare what excellence in the church equates with makes me worry for your time in the word and for your church. I pray that in the last 14 years your views have changed and your church sees you setting the example of an excellent church by being out on the street with the homeless or working with prisoners or working with victims or working with people the world would step over. Not stepping over yourself to be fawned upon.

The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
and his ears are attentive to their cry;
16 but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.
17 The righteous cry out, and the Lord hears them;
he delivers them from all their troubles.
18 The Lord is close to the brokenhearted
and saves those who are crushed in spirit.

That book review is clutch. It proves that Mahaney was intentionally reaching out to CHBC as early as 1998 or 1999.

I also do not see why an unbeliever would fund IX Marks. I am not sure CHBC has had any impact on its neighborhood. That story by “anon” sounds made up.

” We are grateful that someone in the 9Marks camp is keeping up with what we are writing.”

I can’t speak for other churches, but Gateway Church in Southlake most certainly does monitor both your blog and your Twitter. They do react and make adjustments based on what is written here. Sadly, their typical reaction involves simply concealing their bad behavior better. But even that is a victory as it slows them down and forces them to spend time and resources altering their more visible, blatant bad behavior. People may think this is a “small blog” written by a couple of moms, but the reach of this blog is very real and has a far greater impact than many people realize. The posts here show up on Google searches for years to come and people continue to find them. Shining the light of truth is what these unethical megas who make their hundreds of millions off the gospel fear most.
.
I am so grateful and proud of what is accomplished here weekly. I pray for the day it is no longer necessary, but in the mean time pray for you both. What you do makes a huge difference. If it didn’t, these monoliths wouldn’t be following you and making their PR adjustments. Go TWW!

Christiane wrote:

well, good to know it was about money all along, but what was ‘replicated’ and how did the favor get repaid?

Put people in their place as sheeples. A cheap form of social engineering.

LT wrote:

Sadly, their typical reaction involves simply concealing their bad behavior better.

Sadly, this is what predators do. Hiding in plain site. Adjusting the image to maintain the image that covers up a subtext of evil. Yes, predators are adept at this. Note: the cover-up as illuminated in the film, “Spotlight”.

As someone who attended CHBC a decade ago, my sense was the neighbor who gave the money was Matt Schmucker. He was literally Mark’s neighbor. And there really is no reason for Matt to have taken on the role that he did with 9 Marks. Given Mark’s past of only using people who can help him, it would make sense if Matt gave the money and then became director of the organization using Mark’s connections in the church world.

So that’s what the Nine Marks are? Biblical this and Biblical that? What does that even mean? The Bible is a big and complicated book. If you cherry-pick it cleverly enough, you can find a “Biblical” rationale for just about anything, from slavery to polygamy to holy war to genocide.

Christiane wrote:

a non-Christian ‘neighbor’

well, good to know it was about money all along, but what was ‘replicated’ and how did the favor get repaid?

oh gosh, Flannery O’Connor was right all along that sometimes people have hold of the wrong horror

I’m terrified of what the pay-back may have included, and I hope it wasn’t the first thought that came into my mind. God forgive me my judgmental ways. And God protect the children from the greed of those who shelter predators. So much wickedness . . . and all for money. God have mercy.

Agreed.
And I had the same thought…..

Anon wrote:

As someone who attended CHBC a decade ago, my sense was the neighbor who gave the money was Matt Schmucker. He was literally Mark’s neighbor. And there really is no reason for Matt to have taken on the role that he did with 9 Marks. Given Mark’s past of only using people who can help him, it would make sense if Matt gave the money and then became director of the organization using Mark’s connections in the church world.

THAT makes much more sense than some “anonymous non-Christian” giving money out of the blue to what was intended to be one of the most blatantly super-theological congregations of all time…

Patriciamc wrote:

siteseer wrote:
Very strange. Since this person’s motivations were apparently not religious, were they political?

Or $$$

My guess: This neighbour was hoodwinked. He might have heard words like “discipline” and “leadership” all strung together, and figured that a church was finally interested in holding its leaders accountable, and making sure that they assume some responsibility for failures and bad decisions. All good-hearted people, no matter what they believe, knows how badly churches need that, to keep kids and others safe. Maybe that’s what he wanted to fund and support.

If so, that donor had no idea what Dever was really up to. How could he know that Dever’s idea of “discipline” is only for the serfs, and not for the lords?

@ Paula Rice:
Paula, I left my SOVEREIGN GRACE CHURCHES church in 2001. We were not CLC. My recollection was that we were still PDI. Maybe at CLC it was known that the org was SGM but I don’t think I heard of it while I was there and only after I was invited to go elsewhere.

Until I started reading this blog, I had never heard of CJ Mahaney, Mark Dever, 9 Marks, Sovereign Whatever-they-call-themselves. In my day to day secular life (I don’t attend church so I don’t have a “Christian life”), I never come across this stuff. I did an informal poll of people I know (christian & non). Everyone draws a blank on these people/groups.
I guess my point is, that a non-christian would have little reason to become involved. There are some christian missions that I’ve given money to in the past (like Salvation Army) but they do some truly great work in the poorer areas of our community and are not there to convert.
When I did attend church, one of the books touted as “proof” that Christ was real was the “Case for Christ” in which Lee Strobel claims that it’s what convinced him to abandon atheism. Based on what I read later, Strobel was already a committed christian when he wrote the book.
There was a testimony in our church by a young lady who claimed she was converted from a non-christian background. That she had never been exposed to Christianity. Later I found out the family had been involved in the church for years (her brother became a pastor). I have no doubt the conversion was real but it’s a little disingenuous to say you had no christian background and just came to christ.
It seems to me that when evangelicals claim that non-christians are supporting or converting without any reason. They just “see the light” – there’s usually more to the story. Just sayin’

@ Todd Wilhelm:
Why is the name change so confusing? The SGC website indicates that PDI became SGM in 2003.

http://www.sovereigngrace.com/about-us

On the one hand, I have no difficulty believing that the leadership of IX Marks told a story like the one anon shared. On the other hand, I have great difficulty believing it is true in any way. The hilarious bit about a “non-Christian” neighbor being remotely interested in 9Marks or CHBC or anything else reads like bad Christian fiction attempt.

@ Jack:
Agreed! With this crowd, can there be any doubt that there is more to the story?

Yentl wrote:

The “excellence” teaching many would say was the most spiritually harmful teaching they received. CJ taught a six tape series on Pursuing Excellence in the late 70’s or early 80’s. As usual, he used mockery to shame people who were not excellent.

Glad I missed this since I started attending in 1989, but its interesting to read this. I hadn’t known about this Excellence Series, but like with everything they taught, it became part of the fabric.

I lived in a neighborhood where a whole group of CLC leaders lived, who had all gone in together and purchased plots and built new houses in a small subdivision in Gaithersburg. They were all Ryan Homes, as I recall. I believe this took place in the early to mid 80’s when a lot of people migrated out to Gaithersburg, having before that been concentrated in areas closer to DC. So, at the time we relocated from State College, PA, the neighborhood there in Gaithersburg was established and all the houses (54 in all) were built. I didn’t know what I was getting myself into, that’s for sure. It had been my ex-husband’s idea to move and I thought it seemed like a good idea, but he hadn’t informed me of what had happened behind the scenes back in church in State College. The night before we moved, at our going away party, the Pastor whispered to me, “Your husband isn’t who he appears to be” and I had no idea what to do with that, so I just kept it to myself. I thought maybe it was sour grapes or something, I didn’t know. But that’s another story!

Living in Ricucciville, as it was referred to because Gary Ricucci lived there, provided me the opportunity to get a very good sense of how things ticked in CLC. It was one of the nerve centers. I was never looking to find problems, but certain things happened that raised red flags, starting soon after we moved in. At that time nobody from outside these core group of CLC leaders and their associates had lived there among them as your average CLC member. Little did I know the Lord had strategically placed me there because now, years later, I speak as a legitimate witness to how things functioned, and the Lord trained my senses. I thank God that the work of the Spirit within me superceded the pressure to become a Pod Person.

One of my first experiences with my neighbor involved her giving me a tour of her home. This would be the first of many incidences where it was clear to me her intention was to instruct me in the ways. She emphasized how their wedding vows were proudly posted in a big frame in their bedroom, right above the bed.

Some time afterwards, I attended some event in the Ricucci’s home and there, too, I was given a little tour, and it was emphasized to me how their wedding vows were prominently hung over their bed, and I remember thinking, “That’s where K got her idea.” But what struck me at this time was when I needed to retrieve my pen from the couch cushion I was sitting on. I had five young children all close in age, Betsy Ricucci had four. When I moved the couch cushion it startled me that I didn’t see a single crumb – no pennies, no scrap of paper, nothing. I thought, “Wow, I know my couch would tell a different story!” and remarked about it to others in the room. I wondered how a woman with young children had such a spotless, crumb-free couch!

I guess it’s because she was excellent and I was not. And no, I never hung my wedding vows above my bed or started vacuuming my couch everyday.

Yentl wrote:

The most damaging teaching to the children raised in the church would be the “perfection teaching”. Perfect obedience. Immediately. Willingly. Cheerfully.

Oh dear. Mahaney’s son was arrested here for reckless (or was it drunk) driving in Oldham Co. Would Mahaney’s teaching mean he is responsible? Shouldn’t he be degifted according to his own rules?

@ Stunned:
Yes, I’m a bit curious about this know because I know it was SGM when I left. I was there when it changed from People of Destiny to PDI and then to SGM, and I’m certain it was named SGM before I left, and I don’t recall it being something that had just taken place, but I’m fuzzy on the month/year it took place!

@ Anon:
Matt Schumuker had big money? Daddy’s trust fund?

@ Velour: What!! We aren’t gospel bloggers???? I’m crushed

Deb wrote:

@ Todd Wilhelm:
Why is the name change so confusing? The SGC website indicates that PDI became SGM in 2003.

http://www.sovereigngrace.com/about-us

Because the pew sitters had no part or say in anything. Was there a vote on the name change? Were the pew sitters, who were paying for it all, part of developing the budget and voting on it?

@ Anon: Fascinating

I don’t know who Anon is, and I missed commenting on the last post where the speculation was that Mahaney provided a seed gift for 9Marks.

But I did read the post, and I asked someone who told me about 5 years ago what he had heard about 9Marks’ start.

He told me that same information that Anon provided. That an older, non-Christian, man, in the Capitol Hill neighborhood appreciated what CHBC had done in the neighborhood. Back when my friend heard this, he heard it from Matt Schmucker – and it was told in the context of 9Marks needing to change its business model because the older man was no longer in a position to give.

But this time frame also coincides with the collapse of Mahaney’s empire so that Mahaney would also no longer be in a position to give.

I seriously doubt [edited by blog moderator for clarity] that Anon (whom I don’t know) or my friend would lie. They got the same story from Schmucker.

But it is impossible to verify any of this.

Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

So that’s what the Nine Marks are? Biblical this and Biblical that? What does that even mean? The Bible is a big and complicated book. If you cherry-pick it cleverly enough, you can find a “Biblical” rationale for just about anything, from slavery to polygamy to holy war to genocide.

Notice it is just a list of demands to be made upon the church members with no promises to them? Nothing of benefit for the church members whatever!

Yentl wrote:

The “excellence” teaching many would say was the most spiritually harmful teaching they received. CJ taught a six tape series on Pursuing Excellence in the late 70’s or early 80’s

This was a corporate management fad/theme in the early 80’s. That might tell us something about CJ. IMO he is a master marketer, and by the 90’s he had a track record of selling his product and then franchising it. What CJ did *not* have is academic respectability. Dever has that.

Anonymous wrote:

I have no doubt that Anon (whom I don’t know) or my friend would lie. They got the same story from Schmucker.
But it is impossible to verify any of this.

For clarification, I think you mean you believe they are telling the truth. The way it’s worded, it sounds like just the opposite to me.

@ Anonymous:

Wonder what CHBC did in the neighborhood to attract the attention?

But this is confusing:

“But this time frame also coincides with the collapse of Mahaney’s empire so that Mahaney would also no longer be in a position to give.”

The start up and funding of 9 Marks coincides with the collapse of SGM?

Lydia wrote:

JYJames wrote:
s. A cheap form of social engineering.
Yes. An entire generation of young evangelical boys and girls have been socially engineered from the seekers, charismatics to the YRR. This is why it is hard to find a decent church if that is not your normal. I feel for my kids in this one.

The entire mess has ruined my son on religion. He trusts Xtians as far he can throw them. As he told me, most bad things that have happened to him from people who are SBC.
He became so disgusted with religion in America he now lives in China and teaches at a university. He probably will never come home…

Gram3 wrote:

This was a corporate management fad/theme in the early 80’s. That might tell us something about CJ. IMO he is a master marketer, and by the 90’s he had a track record of selling his product and then franchising it. What CJ did *not* have is academic respectability. Dever has that.

The shepherding groups also remind me of the “encounter groups” that were popular during the same era, in the secular psychology world, which also had a lot of destructive results.

siteseer wrote:

The term “biblical” is actually passe now. The new ingroup identity language is “gospel”

True. Another phrase to watch is “missional.” There is now a lot of spiritual abuse going on in the name of “missional.” “Missional Communities” tend to be authoritarian and performance-based. “Low control and high accountability.”

Yentl wrote:

That’s why you often hear CLC people today somewhat dumbstruck that they were rebuked for minor offenses and Nate Morales got a pass.
Somehow, one leader’s “excellence obsession” was equated with “holiness” and being perfect became a spiritual pass or fail.

Cook and his fellow victims, now all grown men, are also upset with former church elders at Covenant Life Church who, investigators say, tried to cover-up Morales’ sexual abuse for decades. Cook tells ABC 7 News their concealment is something they’ll have to live with the rest of their lives.http://bit.ly/1WIKat6

Looked up Nate Morales and found this. Regarding the church leaders/elders’ “concealment is something they’ll have to live with the rest of their lives,” hate to say it, but they don’t give a rip. “They’re not livin’ with nothin'” to put it crassly. In hell or the afterlife, if I dare say so, it will matter. Like the rich man and Lazarus, they will be begging for water that they cannot have. Here on earth, they are oblivious.

K.D. wrote:

The entire mess has ruined my son on religion.

http://bit.ly/1s15gWn The Dones and the Nones. Rather than lose their faith, they leave their church to save it.
Yes, leave the church and save the faith. Sound reasoning. The “church” is not the church anyway. Perhaps the wheel in Ezekiel has left “the church”. So, follow the wheel, the presence of God Himself, and leave the industrial complex in the dust.

Paula Rice wrote:

I didn’t know what I was getting myself into, that’s for sure. It had been my ex-husband’s idea to move and I thought it seemed like a good idea, but he hadn’t informed me of what had happened behind the scenes back in church in State College. The night before we moved, at our going away party, the Pastor whispered to me, “Your husband isn’t who he appears to be” and I had no idea what to do with that, so I just kept it to myself. I thought maybe it was sour grapes or something, I didn’t know. But that’s another story!

That is super creepy. I’m glad that the pastor said something to you so that when the time came, you could look back on it and know it just wasn’t you when things went wrong. At least I would have found comfort from that.

Paula, do you now know what was happening back in PA? Was it A PDI church or another church?

Anonymous wrote:

But this time frame also coincides with the collapse of Mahaney’s empire so that Mahaney would also no longer be in a position to give.

Hi Anon,

Thank you for sharing. CJ’S things didn’t start changing until 2011 or 12. Maybe I’m confused at what you are saying but I thought the financial gift was given at the height of his financial strength (mid 90’s through 2011.)

Anonymous wrote:

and it was told in the context of 9Marks needing to change its business model because the older man was no longer in a position to give.

Ok. Now I think I understand you. Correct me if I am wrong, please, but I think you’re saying money was given by someone and this kept 9Marks going for a while but around 2011 or so 9Marks wanted to change their business model because their benefactor could no longer give and it was this time frame which coincided with Mahaney no longer able to provide as his financial situation had alerted significantly.

Lydia wrote:

Wonder what CHBC did in the neighborhood to attract the attention?

But this is confusing:

“But this time frame also coincides with the collapse of Mahaney’s empire so that Mahaney would also no longer be in a position to give.”

The start up and funding of 9 Marks coincides with the collapse of SGM?

To quote Anon – and it was told in the context of 9Marks needing to change its business model because the older man was no longer in a position to give.

But this time frame also coincides with the collapse of Mahaney’s empire so that Mahaney would also no longer be in a position to give.

So, I think they are saying the giving and then the cessation of the giving both coincide with Mahaney’s fortunes?

Any church that claims to be a IX marks church is publicly stating that it has missed the most important mark that Jesus taught and that Paul encouraged: LOVE! So they either need to become a X marks church, making love the first mark, or become a I Mark church, that mark being LOVE. Too much unloving discipline, etc. And the word Biblical is misplaced, because most of what is taught is not, Biblical that is.

Jesus said that people will know that those who follow Jesus are his disciples by their LOVE! No LOVE implies not a disciple of Jesus, ergo not Christian.

siteseer wrote:

but most responded with, “what I think he really meant was…” Every single person had their own idea of “what he really meant” and, in the end, they all were wrong.

Yup

Max wrote:

I keep waiting for the millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists to eventually wake up and find out that Dr. Mohler’s Calvinization of the SBC has been anything but sweet.

A whopping 200,000 living members left the Southern Baptists last year, fed up with NeoCalvinism, authoritarianism, and patriarchy/complementarian teachings.

An Attorney wrote:

Any church that claims to be a IX marks church is publicly stating that it has missed the most important mark that Jesus taught and that Paul encouraged: LOVE!

Amen!

Ken F wrote:

They then use sophistry, histrionics, extreme-think, false-dichotomies, and misleading interpretations of the Bible to show that anyone who does not agree with them is a heretic. And people buy it, probably because they don’t have the time or inclination to dig deep enough to expose the falsehood.

The church we’ve been attending is planning to bring in a program called “Authentic Manhood” (groan/eyeroll) and we started researching it. Watching the videos is like a training course in logical fallacies, just like you’ve pointed out. “Authentic Manhood” looks to me like a Trojan horse for shepherding. What a coincidence with this thread.

Is there anywhere a believer can get away from this stuff? I’m right on the verge of “done.” Maybe past the verge, to be honest.

From Greg Gilbert’s fawning line of drivel:

“My church’s staff had been invited to the conference by PDI’s C.J. Mahaney. If you know the name, you just smiled.”

Speak for yourself, Greg. I know his name, and when I read it, I snarled.

Dee wrote:

@ Velour: What!! We aren’t gospel bloggers???? I’m crushed

I guess that’s the new ‘in’ word. OK, The Deebs are now Gospel (TM) Watch Bloggers.

@ Paula Rice:

Yikes, Paula, that framed-wedding-vows shtick. The spotless couch. That’s what they meant by excellence? Stepford Christianity?

And all this time I thought it might have something to do with the Sermon on the Mount.

Jack wrote:

I never come across this stuff.

Ditto. I am so out of this loop, it’s a wonder I can even follow the discourse. Every name and every acronym has to be looked up and researched.

However, that being said, when I do the research, a light bulb goes off with, “I know that guy!” or “I get it! I’ve seen that before!” and in the end, everything has already come up in the Bible. There are biblical references everywhere for the individuals and movements mentioned on TWW.

Moreover, the issues are extremely important and universal: helping the oppressed, connecting the marginalized, speaking truth to power, etc.

That’s why everything here relates to, for example, the film Spotlight, even though it seems most references are to protestant churches.

Finally, in the global political economic sphere, there are connections.

For example, in the book, Why Nations Fail by Acemoglu and Robinson, they point out that the second in power is never really vetted until they become the top dog. In other words, despots are latent until they take the top position. This seems to also be true in religious culture.

Velour wrote:

A whopping 200,000 living members left the Southern Baptists last year, fed up with NeoCalvinism, authoritarianism, and patriarchy/complementarian teachings.

I am not sure how to interpret this. Many SBC churches don’t identify with the SBC anymore and don’t report numbers, etc. Many don’t cooperate with the CP yet their leaders are often promoted by the SBC. Platt and J.D. Greear come to mind.

It is all very convoluted and confusing. As if Mohler and co want to use the OPM non cal money flowing to entities but want to change the model at the same time. Many YRR churches don’t give to the SBC but are promoted by SBC leadership. It is truly bizarre.

siteseer wrote:

Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

So that’s what the Nine Marks are? Biblical this and Biblical that? What does that even mean? The Bible is a big and complicated book. If you cherry-pick it cleverly enough, you can find a “Biblical” rationale for just about anything, from slavery to polygamy to holy war to genocide.

Notice it is just a list of demands to be made upon the church members with no promises to them? Nothing of benefit for the church members whatever!

Wow, now that you mention it…it reminds me of the toxic culture in many mega-corporations: all stick, no carrot.

Btw, slightly off-topic, but is anyone familiar with Providence Baptist Church in Raleigh. The “Internet Continuum” brought me to their site. Is it Neo-Cal? It seemed to me to have a few of the signs, but maybe I’ve become overly sensitive. They talked about God’s sovereignty, complementarianism, etc. Plus, they had a humongous ministry and staff team. Does that mean they are a mega? Or just top-heavy?

Deb wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I have no doubt that Anon (whom I don’t know) or my friend would lie. They got the same story from Schmucker.
But it is impossible to verify any of this.

For clarification, I think you mean you believe they are telling the truth. The way it’s worded, it sounds like just the opposite to me.

Yes. My friend would not lie. Sorry.

Lydia wrote:

@ Anonymous:

Wonder what CHBC did in the neighborhood to attract the attention?

But this is confusing:

“But this time frame also coincides with the collapse of Mahaney’s empire so that Mahaney would also no longer be in a position to give.”

The start up and funding of 9 Marks coincides with the collapse of SGM?

No. The start up of 9 Marks would have been at the same time SGM and its predecessors were doing well.

SGM began to crumble what – 5 years or so ago? That was right around the time, or it was shortly thereafter, that 9Marks became more prodigious in fundraising, whereas before they gave away most of their stuff. The explanation was the need to change the funding due to the loss of the donor.

My own personal suspicion is that it’s not Mahaney. I am sure he has given to 9Marks and CHBC, but I seriously doubt he would have funded 9Marks heavily in the beginning. If he had, his name, brand, etc. would be all over the 9Marks stuff. Nobody’s that humble. Not even Mahaney.

Velour wrote:

Deb wrote:
@ Velour:

*Young Earth Creationism. A rejection of science by people who are untrained. Their insistence that the earth is 6,000 years old and that you are a heretic

I know a ” former” youth minister, now teaching science in a Dallas-Ft Worth at a public school. Yes, he is YEC. Yes, he is YRR, and his B.A.? It’s from one of the SBC seminary colleges in religion. Texas is so desperate for math and science teachers ( and just about any core subject) if you can pass the subject exam, you can become a teacher…..makes you wonder just what he’s teaching to his high school kids?

Stunned wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But this time frame also coincides with the collapse of Mahaney’s empire so that Mahaney would also no longer be in a position to give.

Hi Anon,

Thank you for sharing. CJ’S things didn’t start changing until 2011 or 12. Maybe I’m confused at what you are saying but I thought the financial gift was given at the height of his financial strength (mid 90’s through 2011.)

Man, I am confusing today. It seems that the time frames possibly line up. SGM is strong in the early years of 9Marks and before, but in recent years, SGM is weak and probably does not give as much. And it is during this time that my friend hears the story about the benefactor and 9Marks’ need to raise money.

Dee wrote:

@ Deb: Remember Head Apostle. CJ? ROFL

Not just Head Apostle(TM), Head Apostle of the People of Destiny(TM)?
Ego much?

Christiane wrote:

a non-Christian ‘neighbor’

So it was CJ after all.

SCNR

That conference Greg Gilbert spoke of is oozing with the same sort of “hospitality” gospel that Mary Mohler pushes in her “Ministry of Hospitality” Seminary Wives class. Someone I know well took the class and was appalled at how shallow it was. Nothing about the theology of hospitality, God’s hospitality of strangers, etc. All about the fancy and superficial details of entertaining.

K.D. wrote:

I know a ” former” youth minister, now teaching science in a Dallas-Ft Worth at a public school. Yes, he is YEC. Yes, he is YRR, and his B.A.? It’s from one of the SBC seminary colleges in religion. Texas is so desperate for math and science teachers ( and just about any core subject) if you can pass the subject exam, you can become a teacher…..makes you wonder just what he’s teaching to his high school kids?

These guys who went to these insular Bible colleges/seminaries and were force-fed and expected to believe this drivel. If they & everyone around them says it enough times than it must be ‘true’. There is no reasoning with them.

There were plenty of Christians in my family, including women, who were in the sciences (Physics, Chemistry, Biology) who got their university degrees 100 years ago and believed in an Old Earth Creation. Not even they believed this YEC drivel. I look at the mountain ranges and know that they are older than 6,000 years. (Even the words these guys are using from the Bible have multiple meanings and not just the one they claim to justify Young Earth Creation.)

Isn’t it Francis Collins that Dee has mentioned who is a Christian and believes in an Old Earth?

Ken F wrote:

siteseer wrote:

Another phrase to watch is “missional.” There is now a lot of spiritual abuse going on in the name of “missional.” “Missional Communities” tend to be authoritarian and performance-based. “Low control and high accountability.”

I was actively involved in the early days of the missional conversation in North America — an outgrowth of Lesslie Newbigin’s Gospel & Our Culture Network. It really was quite simply described through Peterson’s rendering of John 1 — “He took on flesh and moved into the neighbourhood.” A call to us to become missionaries to our culture.

There was a real battle to take the word and the conversation over by the New Reformed. Sadly, as a result “missional” means virtually nothing today.

Lydia wrote:

Because the pew sitters had no part or say in anything. Was there a vote on the name change? Were the pew sitters, who were paying for it all, part of developing the budget and voting on it?

Hahaha! You must be mad to ask those questions 😉

@ K.D.:

I found The Deebs’ definition under the top of the page.

“The Flintstone Doctrine

The heavens and earth were created in 6 literal 24-hour days.
Yom must only be interpreted as a literal, 24-hour day although it has around 58 meanings.
The earth is 6,000 years old. (Radical Young Earthers may stretch the age of the earth to a whopping 10,000 years old!)
Death of animals is a moral equivalent of death of men. Therefore, animals couldn’t die until Adam let sin enter the world.
All dating methods are flawed and are off by billions of years.
Satan probably planted the fossil evidence.
God created the universe to look old. Despite the obvious, God is not trying to trick us.
All science research done by YE (Young Earth) is true. All scientific research done by anyone else is part of a vast conspiracy to suppress the truth.
Christians who are part of the scientific establishment are doing it for money and tenure and are sell-outs and cowards. They know that YE is true and are actively involved in deceiving their Christian community.
Dinosaurs boarded Noah’s Ark two by two and survived the flood.
Dinosaurs played with children while mom did the dishes (See example in creation museum)
Prior to the fall, all carnivorous dinosaurs were herbivores, even though God created them with GYNORMOUS teeth.
Wives are strictly “helpmeets” to their husbands. They must role model Mrs. Ham who is not only submissive, but very, very submissive. When dinosaurs roamed the earth (prior to their extinction) they may have been domesticated to help with household chores (aka the Dino theory).
Men are not merely men but patriarchs.
One is a heretic and most likely not a Christian unless all criteria above are met.
All evolutionists are atheists. Therefore, Francis Collin is not a Christian no matter what he says.”

@ bea:

“…Mary Mohler… her “Ministry of Hospitality” Seminary Wives class. … how shallow it was. Nothing about the theology of hospitality, God’s hospitality of strangers, etc. All about the fancy and superficial details of entertaining.”
++++++++++++++++

you mean all the fluffy stuff? that comes down to culture and style? how to drape a tablecloth and swags? how to bunch up a table-topper? fold napkins? when to put the sherbet in the punch bowl?

i hate that stuff.

i mean with a passion.

I’ve perused Southern hospitality and decorating magazines — not my style. i can’t imagine spending how much money? on something like that, because it’s necessary for godliness. please.

@ Ken F:

Thanks, Ken F., for that link. Good stuff.

@ Deb:

Hah!! My Neo-Cal Meter is becoming more accurate, it seems.

Next I’ll ask about the Worldview Academy that convenes this summer at Wake Forest University (where older son just graduated with his MA in Management).

@ Deb:
But that’s not fair! Platt got to be IMB Prez without his church giving to the CP! Now, Summit is ponying up?
My my.

@ lowlandseer:
Dever was the Savior of not only CHBC but the neighborhood! Too bad his membership contracts and church discipline are ruining lives elsewhere.

elastigirl wrote:

@ bea:

“…Mary Mohler… her “Ministry of Hospitality” Seminary Wives class. … how shallow it was. Nothing about the theology of hospitality, God’s hospitality of strangers, etc. All about the fancy and superficial details of entertaining.”
++++++++++++++++

you mean all the fluffy stuff? that comes down to culture and style? how to drape a tablecloth and swags? how to bunch up a table-topper? fold napkins? when to put the sherbet in the punch bowl?

i hate that stuff.

i mean with a passion.

I’ve perused Southern hospitality and decorating magazines — not my style. i can’t imagine spending how much money? on something like that, because it’s necessary for godliness. please.

Yes, the fluff.

It’s always nice to make people feel comfortable as guests and there are many different ways culturally to do so, but the superficiality of so much of these things I see, from the posh environment of T4G to the fancy campuses of many churches… Why can’t church be more about what church is, believers sharing the good news with others and opening our modest homes? Why do our churches need to spend money on larger speaker systems and expensive projectors instead of caring for the oppressed and downtrodden? Endless questions… Modern American churchianity has a lot of baggage. We need to pray for revival.

@ bea:
Mary Mohler lives in a free mansion with lots of help.

DEFINITELY those groups I mentioned specifically get marginalized by that kind of obsession with super-household-management but also the rest of us who spend more time worrying about other things than dust bunnies. Good clarification. 😉
K.D. wrote:

bea wrote:

Yeah, the class evidently involved students allowing and being prepared for Mary Mohler to pop over anytime during the week. An exercise in making sure you can host someone unexpected, have a clean home, and have baked goods to offer. Welcome to unreality for a large portion of families with small children or illness, grief, etc.

Whoa! You are kidding??? Right? I can’t keep the house clean now and I am retired and a professional ” house-boy” now…..and after the weight loss, forget me having any ” baked goods ” around….

Lydia wrote:

Didn’t Mary Mohlers mom teach her to call before dropping in on someone?

Mary Mohler may be well-intentioned, but if instead of employing the ancient Church definition of ‘hospitality’ into to classes, she is trying to teach good manners, it might be nice to set an example by calling first, even if it’s a five-minute heads-up . . . a home with small children should place the children first, not graciously receiving guests who are rude enough to be un-announced. I suppose Mrs. Mohler is a very nice person but she might want to re-think her technique and what is at the heart of REAL Christian hospitality.

If a house is spotless, and everyone is well-groomed and presentable at all times, something is not quite as it should be. Give me the clutter of children’s toys and the joy of their noises and the sound of their play. They will be grown up soon enough. ‘Graciousness’ is no reason to put the children lower than trying to impress a grown person who should know better than to expect perfection from any mother of small children.

I think the Seminary Wives’s Institute program at SBTS is probably a nice way of ensuring that relatively unlearned soon-to-be pastor’s wives are on the same theological page as their husbands. But of course, not as or more learned than their husbands.

http://www.sbts.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/swi-brochure.pdf

siteseer wrote:

Is there anywhere a believer can get away from this stuff?

Try mainline denominations that ordain women.

Bridget wrote:

It is quite possible that the name change was not legal until 2002. CJ could have easily started using it earlier at CLC as in HIS mind it was a done deal.

I started hunting for some evidence and only thing I discovered was a picture of a magazine cover dated September/October 1997 and at the top its called “Sovereign Grace” and in the tag line below it says “The Magazine of PDI Ministries.” Maybe someone knows more about this, but the name of the magazine usually reflected the name of the ministry and for many years it was “People of Destiny Magazine.” I seem to recall a time period when the magazine went dormant, then it was relaunched as “Sovereign Grace” magazine – which may have been due to all the doctrinal changes that had been going on.

Wikipedia states, “Sovereign Grace Ministries was known as “People of Destiny International” until 1998. But like I said, this magazine cover I’m looking at is from 1997 and it says on the cover “The Magazine of PDI Ministries.”

Deb wrote:

Platt was appointed. Greear wants to be elected at the upcoming SBC gathering. Pretty sure that’s the difference.

I’m hearing Voices still in in my head telling me that it makes no difference at all, NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL, that Platt’s church was not big on CP giving because PassionForMissions! Are there still that many open votes at the SBC? I thought all the young YRR staffers are now attending and voting in which case it makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. 🙂

@ Gram3:
C’on Gram! You know Platt put himself in harms way for Gospel missions at the Dubai Marriott.

But you are right about the convention. A big drop in numbers.. Mainly church staffers now voting how the gurus tell them.

bea wrote:

I somehow missed this last summer. Not horribly surprising. I’m assuming Chad is still an intern at SBTS?

The Mahaney entourage that fled to Louisville… their jobs and internships at SBTS are a verboten subject. Everyone is mum here.

Kauflin’s son has some band that plays everywhere and Kauflin seems to have made out well with his music at SBTS.

There was a bit of grumbling about their special treatment over SBC applicants but that got squashed quickly. It is a sin to talk about it, you know.

Lydia wrote:

I guess there is a special way to make Christian biscuits?

Yes, there is! They’re the ones that have risen.

Sorry… 😉

bea wrote:

Lydia wrote:

I guess there is a special way to make Christian biscuits?

Yes, there is! They’re the ones that have risen.

Sorry…

LOL! Oh dear. I should be worried then….

@ Christiane:
Christiane, No way I’m better. Just waaaaayyyy to naive (to the point I say stuff and have no awareness how others may misinterpret it.) Thanks for responding. I appreciate your sensitivity and desire not to hurt someone else.

Friend wrote:

Why, oh why would anyone replace this kind of hospitality?

The idea that their way is more excellent

Immaculate houses, your praises we sing!
You reign now in splendor with Jesus our King

Sorry, couldn’t he’p myself.

The Stepford Gospel. Ugh!

lowlandseer wrote:

I found this. CHBC was not well-liked by the neighbours as you can read here.
http://www.adamsetser.com/blog/2016/3/31/capitol-hill-baptist-church-weekender-conference-debriefing

The article, written by an adoring Mark Dever/9Marxist fan boy, could address problems neighbors had with parking but not the theological problems with Dever’s heavy-Shepherding teachings/authoritarianism. The fan boy trumpeted elder-led churches (more authoritarianism) omitting that Baptists have congregational votes.

@ Gram3:
There is another issue. Third Avenue is surely not existing off tithe money. My guess is NAMB church plant money even though an old church. They have paid elders for such a small place near the University. Matt Smethurst, the obsequious YRR Tweeting extroidinare, is an elder there. Gilbert most likely owes his salary and position and those of the elders to Mohlers good graces.

From what I understand, they are 9 Marks influenced. They are big on home groups, comp doctrine and one on one discipleship so you don’t just come when you want. I would not recommend the church to any independent thinkers.

Gram3 wrote:

There is hope because I know of some other men who were CJ fans who no longer are after seeing behind the curtain.

Yes, I know of several myself.

I do believe that God is moving to help pull the blinders off people’s eyes. Many will remain enamored with the big names and book deals, but God loves his church and his sheep will hear his voice.

I think it is the responsibility of those who know what is going on to continue to expose the truth in as loving and humble a way as possible (thanks to the Deebs and many others for their faithfulness in this), and we all must not neglect to pray for revival, to pray for the LOVE in our churches to grow, to pray and champion for the least among us, to live and walk in the Spirit. God is moving– we must not grow weary in doing good even when things can seem so bleak!

bea wrote:

Yeah, the class evidently involved students allowing and being prepared for Mary Mohler to pop over anytime during the week. An exercise in making sure you can host someone unexpected, have a clean home, and have baked goods to offer.

If this is accurate, that is classic shepherding! I had no idea this insanity was happening outside of Sovereign Grace Churches.

bea wrote:

but the superficiality of so much of these things I see, from the posh environment of T4G to the fancy campuses of many churches… Why can’t church be more about what church is, believers sharing the good news with others and opening our modest homes? Why do our churches need to spend money on larger speaker systems and expensive projectors instead of caring for the oppressed and downtrodden? Endless questions… Modern American churchianity has a lot of baggage. We need to pray for revival.

Amen

Oh, my! This is what my heart truly longs for the church in this country and for the most the world to look like.

This is what church is about. Helping those who need it. Orphans, widows, oppressed, down-trodden, forgotten, abandoned.

Bea, your lips to God’s ears.

You have seen the cry of my heart for so long. I am tired of another man-made sermon which just beats the pewsitters up.

After many years I think I have found out what troubles most of us in this country and esp. in churches. We all long for that purpose. Madison Ave. no longer fills us. Everything seems shallow.

Well, here it is. God wanted us to all serve, in the good way, love your neighbor as yourself, and stop chasing the world. It really is about loving God and your neighbor as yourself.

Granted, not everyone is having that issue and we all have some of it to different degrees. The problem in our society and church is that so many people and institutions are and that is really causing stress among many of us.

I know I may be projecting, but I find that when I am looking out for others whenever and wherever, it seems that I don’t worry so much about me and my wants. Notice I didn’t say needs. It is just that my fulfillment comes from helping.

Unfortunately, it is hard to break the hold that the system has and it has crept into the church and has a stranglehold there as well.

Stunned wrote:

Gift baskets and lavishing gifts is NOT what an excellent church looks like. Here’s what an excellent church looks like:
It doesn’t spend a penny unnecessarily so that MORE money can go to the lost and the broken. An excellent church is feeding the homeless. An excellent church is in the hospitals visiting the sick. An excellent church is in the homes of the elderly tending to their broken hearts. An excellent church is clothing the needy, tutoring in after school programs, in the prisons, at courts loving victims, etc.

Amen. Amen. Amen.

@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:

Providence Baptist in Raleigh is where my East Coast Mom was a Sunday School teacher. You can read about Providence in the Wonderland series at this blog.

One of these days I would like to write David Horner a blunt open letter.

Friend wrote:

Lydia wrote:

They’re the ones that have risen.

Was there a biscuit rapture? Is it ongoing? Are they on plates? Does that explain the shape of UFOs?

Mine could be weapons. Armageddon.

Lydia wrote:

Friend wrote:

Lydia wrote:

They’re the ones that have risen.

Was there a biscuit rapture? Is it ongoing? Are they on plates? Does that explain the shape of UFOs?

Mine could be weapons. Armageddon.

I actually found the seriously best recipe for biscuits: http://www.orgasmicchef.com/bread/best-fluffy-flakey-buttery-biscuits-ever/

LT wrote:

I can’t speak for other churches, but Gateway Church in Southlake most certainly does monitor both your blog and your Twitter. They do react and make adjustments based on what is written here

I pay attention to gateway stuff as I have a friend that goes there. ive visited a couple times too, but not sure that Robert Morris was ever preaching when I went.

Ken F wrote:

Jack wrote:
Strobel was already a committed christian when he wrote the book.
Maybe you missed the part where his wife became a Christian and challenged him to investigate the matter while he was still an atheist. He wrote the book years later, but he really did do the investigation. There are other famous authors who did the same, including CS Lewis and Josh McDowell. It’s good to have a healthy sense of skepticism. But when it gets to the point of doubting everyone’s testimony the skepticism has gone too far. I don’t find any reason to disbelieve Strobel’s testimony just because he wrote the book years after it happened, which is exactly how he described it in the book.
One important point about apologetics is that there is no airtight case for Christianity. There is also no airtight case for atheism. Or any other religion. Any belief system must be accepted by faith, even agnosticism. The real question is which one makes the most sense.

I read Case for Christ about 10 years ago or so. It was promoted as Mr. Strobel being an atheist and converting as he was writing the book. That wasn’t the case. He wrote the book as a Christian, and I do recall he did not interview any skeptics, only those who reinforced his own belief, so it was hardly the unbiased opinion advertised. I don’t question everyone’s testimony, only when they aren’t fully open about their real agenda (including quasi-truths & lies by omission).
The church I attended had another great example when there was a Franklin Graham Crusade coming to the city. “Operation Andrew” had cards handed out to the congregation. You were supposed to write the names of “unbelieving” or “unchurched” people and pray for them. Ok so far. Then you were supposed to befriend the people on the list (invite them for coffee, or dinner to your house) with the express purpose of encouraging them to go to the Crusade. Needless to say we didn’t participate.
I agree with your last statement but apologetics & faith have nothing to do with my comment. I didn’t ask for an airtight case for Christianity – I freely admit that I don’t know if Christianity is real or not.
Leaders not acting above board, hiding their agendas (in some cases – hiding crimes), keeping up false fronts, manipulating others, playing shell games with tax exempt money (hard earned by other people, I might add) & laughing all the way to the bank while doing it That is what is at issue.

JYJames wrote:

For example, in the book, Why Nations Fail by Acemoglu and Robinson, they point out that the second in power is never really vetted until they become the top dog. In other words, despots are latent until they take the top position. This seems to also be true in religious culture.

I’m always looking for something new to read. I’ll check it out.

bea wrote:

Lydia wrote:

Friend wrote:

Lydia wrote:

They’re the ones that have risen.

Was there a biscuit rapture? Is it ongoing? Are they on plates? Does that explain the shape of UFOs?

Mine could be weapons. Armageddon.

I actually found the seriously best recipe for biscuits: http://www.orgasmicchef.com/bread/best-fluffy-flakey-buttery-biscuits-ever/

Oooh, must try!! Thank you!

A good biscuit is hard to find. 🙁

Jack wrote:

It was promoted as Mr. Strobel being an atheist and converting as he was writing the book.

Did you actually read the all of the book? The back cover says, “Retracing his own spiritual journey from atheism to faith, …” Page 14 says, “In effect, I’m going to retrace and expand upon the spiritual journey I took for nearly two years.”

I don’t know how he could have written more clearly that he was retracing an earlier investigation. How was he dishonest about the timing of his conversion?

It’s true that he only interviewed believers, but it was pretty clear that he started as an atheist, so it would not add any value to the book to present the case for atheism when the title itself says it’s the case for Christ. He built the case like a prosecuting attorney would build a case, not like a neutral historian trying to lay out a balanced discussion. I would be surprised if a prosecuting attorney tried to take both sides in a balanced way. I fail to see how his approach was dishonest.

One can argue about how effective he was, or whether or not he used the best facts, or whether he twisted facts or relied on bad sources. But was he was purposely dishonest in his intent? There does not seem to be compelling evidence that he was. I look at is as a fairly decent book on apologetics that can be used as a launching point for more serious study.

Here’s an interesting blog article from cult expert Steve Hassan and an interesting 18-minute video from a former White Supremacist who helps people get out of violent groups:
https://freedomofmind.com/blog/2016/05/20/cult-survivors-need-compassion-and-help-to-recover/

Many of the mind control techniques and authoritarianism will sound familiar to those of us who are no longer at heavy-Shepherding churches (SGM, 9 Marks, Acts 29, John MacArthur-ite churches, etc.). “Unexpected kindness” of outsiders, formerly deemed ‘enemies’, played an important role in the healing process.

@ Ken F:
Ok. It was 10 years ago & the book didn’t leave that much of an impression. It went to the library book sale as soon as I finished it so I no longer own a copy. Since you do, I’ll concede the point. I remember it being promoted at church as convincing and unbiased. It was neither. It played to the house (ie those who are already Christian).
I’ll admit I was wrong regarding Mr. Strobel’s intent but if you “twist facts and use bad sources” while promoting yourself as just “gosh honest” journalist – is that not disingenuous?
That alone reinforces my point

Deb wrote:

@ Lea:

I don’t think he had been out of college very long.

That makes sense.

My fondest memory of chbc were the awesome old school church potlucks they used to throw, which I as a college student majorly appreciated!

@ Lea:
This cracked me up! Great point.

I have been searchng for my “biblical womanhood” role midel to emulate but all I can find is my Savior, Jesus Christ.

Lea wrote:

I went to chbc for a couple years so I remembered mark dever as an interesting pastor because his sermons were full of history notes and so on.

I love a good sermon which ties history into verses!

@ Jack:
Good! Frightening to think one has to worry about that, but I suppose there’s nothing new under the sun.

Velour wrote:

A whopping 200,000 living members left the Southern Baptists last year, fed up with NeoCalvinism, authoritarianism, and patriarchy/complementarian teachings.

On the other hand, SBC-YRR church plants in my area are busting at the seams, attracted by coffee lounges, cool bands, easy church. I suspect the SBC members who are “done” are in the 50+ age range … the YRR are in their 20s-40s. It’s good to see young folks back in church, but sad that they are being pulled into the New Calvinist mess.

Shining light into true darkness always has an effect…. Unfortunately, like any whistle blower, there can be blowback…
But, we all need to keep asking these questions… And exposing the corruption… G$d gave us brains to think and ask questions, and call perversions and cover ups of perversions what it is! Not just the Mega churches, but all human organizations need inpendent accountability…. It is quite obvious the YRR’s and company, do not have independent accountability..

LT wrote:

” We are grateful that someone in the 9Marks camp is keeping up with what we are writing.”
I can’t speak for other churches, but Gateway Church in Southlake most certainly does monitor both your blog and your Twitter. They do react and make adjustments based on what is written here. Sadly, their typical reaction involves simply concealing their bad behavior better. But even that is a victory as it slows them down and forces them to spend time and resources altering their more visible, blatant bad behavior. People may think this is a “small blog” written by a couple of moms, but the reach of this blog is very real and has a far greater impact than many people realize. The posts here show up on Google searches for years to come and people continue to find them. Shining the light of truth is what these unethical megas who make their hundreds of millions off the gospel fear most.
.
I am so grateful and proud of what is accomplished here weekly. I pray for the day it is no longer necessary, but in the mean time pray for you both. What you do makes a huge difference. If it didn’t, these monoliths wouldn’t be following you and making their PR adjustments. Go TWW!

@ bea:
Square biscuits? I am so behind the times! I bookmarked the site. If I ever try again, it will be this recipe.

@ Max:

Oh how quick it goes. They will soon be 50 or 60 and not relevant spiritually anymore.

One cannot help a bit of Schadenfreude when the former inner ring finds themselves outside. I run into them now and then …adrift from their mooring of the seeker mega. Nothing serious mind you, just the let down of becoming irrelevant to the new young gurus who could care less that you were in the inner ring once and someone important. But I also remember all the people they once thought so unimportant.

There is wisdom in looking ahead at what can’t last and sticking to the true path. I welcome them and tell them how blessed they are to be out. Most of them don’t get it….yet. They are still caught up in how glorious it used to be because they cannot admit their part in making things the way they are. That is the hardest thing. Facing ourselves and our part in what is.

^should read “became part of the problem”

Lea wrote:

This whole ‘learning how to be the sex you already are’ thing is so so weird to me! I’ve never felt the need to read a book or join a program that teaches me to be an ‘authentic’ woman.

So much of Christianity today is a veiled attempt at supporting the Christian publishing industry. You can’t be a real man or real woman without reading a book by (insert celebrity pastor name), or if you have whatever problem, then read the book by (insert celebrity pastor). These churches have become vehicles for marketing.

bea wrote:

Any suggestions for evangelical denominations outside the neo-cal mess that are not theologically liberal?

There’s the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. Many of the churches have women ministers. There’s also the Assembly of God denomination, although I don’t know much about it other than it’s charismatic. There are also the various flavors of the Orthodox church. There, women can hold many offices except being a priest. You can also try individual churches of the mainline denominations. I know there are many Methodist congregations that are conservative even if the denomination leadership is fairly liberal. Oh yeah, there’s also the Cooperative Baptists.

Deb wrote:

Gotta love the internet! Here you go…

http://www.authenticmanhood.com/the-team/

Oh look, some of the contributors are Matt Chandler, Paul Tripp, and Jefferson Bethke.

They certainly are prolific, aren’t they?

Velour wrote:

Dear Wealthy Non-Christian Benefactor of 9 Marks (aka 9Marxist/Hotel California),
So we’ve heard from Anon you made an investment to fund the authoritarian, abusive, toxic, dysfunctional 9Marks.
Mark Devers’ abusive practices have spread to churches across the U.S. and around the globe. That also includes brutal excommunications and shunnings of godly Christians, all ages and professions (including the elderly and conservatives) for the slightest dissent. Churches have been destroyed, believers’ reputations, friendships, families. You can’t undo this kind of damage.
Are you now willing to fund psychotherapy, medical care, and vacations for all of those that 9Marks harmed?
You funded destruction. And it’s NOT funny.

Hmmm. Maybe this non-believer considered the funding to be seed money for the destruction of the modern church.

Lydia wrote:

@ Stunned:
The parallels to similar abuses of OT religious leaders is incredible.
One would think in the NT Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, would be hard on the Roman Occupiers. But He wasn’t. He was hard on the religious leaders from His tribe.
A lesson CJ, AL, Mark and others miss. Instead, they use His Name for personal power.

Perhaps it is possible that, just as the religious leaders from His tribe, they don’t believe in Him.

K.D. wrote:

Lydia wrote:
JYJames wrote:
s. A cheap form of social engineering.
Yes. An entire generation of young evangelical boys and girls have been socially engineered from the seekers, charismatics to the YRR. This is why it is hard to find a decent church if that is not your normal. I feel for my kids in this one.
The entire mess has ruined my son on religion. He trusts Xtians as far he can throw them. As he told me, most bad things that have happened to him from people who are SBC.
He became so disgusted with religion in America he now lives in China and teaches at a university. He probably will never come home…

I feel your pain. Sounds like my kids. (Except the part about China.)

refugee wrote:

I feel your pain. Sounds like my kids. (Except the part about China.)

For my part, I would like to say that I’m sorry for ever judging people who didn’t go to church. Now I understand why so many are so wary, and I agree.

@ Lea:

“I went to chbc for a couple years so I remembered mark dever as an interesting pastor because his sermons were full of history notes and so on”
+++++++++++++

i love the history notes, but let’s be clear — he was an interesting speaker.

a good speaker does not necessarily a good pastor make.

(& pastor schmastor…. what’s a pastor anyway? who invented the job description? how did it all become this way? i can think of many other ways, more efficient and productive)

@ siteseer:

Thanks for that PBS link on Collins.

@ patriciamc:

Lea wrote: “This whole ‘learning how to be the sex you already are’ thing is so so weird to me! I’ve never felt the need to read a book or join a program that teaches me to be an ‘authentic’ woman.”

Patriciamc wrote: “So much of Christianity today is a veiled attempt at supporting the Christian publishing industry. You can’t be a real man or real woman without reading a book by (insert celebrity pastor name), or if you have whatever problem, then read the book by (insert celebrity pastor). These churches have become vehicles for marketing.”
+++++++++++++++++++

it reminds me of commercials from my childhood, which invented a problem (where no problem existed), creating something (false) for people to worry about, be concerned about, be afraid of, then the wonderful product is ushered on to the scene to solve the problem.

silly examples are sticky rice when the in-laws are coming over for dinner. But thank God for Minute Rice! Separate, not sticky!

or spots on drinking glasses. again, i think, when the in-laws are coming over. but wonder of wonders Cascade comes to the rescue!

but it’s not so silly when Christians do the same.

After all the CBMW progaganda threats on ‘be a man’, ‘you’re a man fail’ (matt chandler), better make sure you’re a ‘manly man’ or else… it’s sick. cruel. i’m sure men are nervous wrecks now, thanks to you, CBMW and Matt Chandler and your friends. and how convenient, you just have the answer, don’t you. which i suspect are quite burdensome. you’re using them — for your agenda, and for revenue.

and then lo & behold other ‘christian’ opportunists come along and capitalize on the fears of inadequacy you created in men, and we have the likes of authentic manhood stupid books and workbooks and seminars and conferences. to take their hard-earned money with the promise of an answer that is really just part agenda-driven invention, and part common sense.

men, don’t fall for this. you’re doing just fine.

@ Velour:
Jonathan Leeman warned recently of the dangers of the Shepherding movement when he was answering questions in his mailbox. You can access it from Challies.com.

Velour wrote:

elastigirl wrote:

remembered mark dever as an interesting pastor because his sermons were full of history notes and so on”

I could tell that Mark Dever was also a history buff. But the man lacks LOVE. He’s puffed up and full of pride. Full of himself. He lacks Christian love for others and humility. He drones on and on about these insufferable details instead of doing the real work of being quiet and showing Christian love and humility. He’s done so much damage. And he’s never said he’s sorry, wrong, or repented. He can’t undo that kind of damage. He won’t even acknowledge it.

There in a nutshell is the essence of 9Marx….

mirele wrote:

Try being a single, never married, childless adult above, say, 30 in a lot of these churches. We pretty much don’t exist. And considering how many of these churches run ladies’ Bible study during the day (when I have a job, yanno), it’s clear who they want as members.

It’s a great point. Now that I’m over 50 and all the kids are out of the house I’ve fallen into the irrelevant category as well.

Lydia wrote:

@ bea:
Square biscuits? I am so behind the times! I bookmarked the site. If I ever try again, it will be this recipe.

Lydia I make square biscuits when I’m making for me and my family scoffed at me but it is so ridiculously more practical than round! No re rolling required and you use all the dough.

Lydia wrote:

Friend wrote:
Was there a biscuit rapture? Is it ongoing? Are they on plates? Does that explain the shape of UFOs?

Mine could be weapons. Armageddon.

?!?

Sounds like something the Breadmaster would bake. 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8JZSKTAJfA

Lydia wrote:

I have been searchng for my “biblical womanhood” role midel to emulate but all I can find is my Savior, Jesus Christ.

🙂 You’re clearly missing out. If only you had the latest Christian woman around you, you could be more pinterest-worthy as a woman.

bea wrote:

I actually found the seriously best recipe for biscuits: http://www.orgasmicchef.com/bread/best-fluffy-flakey-buttery-biscuits-ever/

A half cup of butter? Wow! That’s a lot!
I do my grandma’s biscuits – super simple. Just milk, lard, and White Lily self-rising flour (White Lily is THE best.). And, yeh, I use a round biscuit cutter. My husband (born and raised in Maine) loves biscuits, fried chicken, gravy, and mashed potatoes. They don’t do biscuits or fried chicken in Maine.

Everyone – please say a short prayer for my husband and me. My husband broke his jaw in a fall and it is wire shut right now. He is a big eater, and consuming food through a straw is very frustrating for him right now. He isn’t “eating” nearly enough.

@ Lea:

I was going to make a kind of lemon/caramel sponge in a biscuit base for pudding (or “dessert” if you prefer) tonight, but thought better of it as a) we’ve got rather a lot of puddingy stuff in the house just the noo, and b) there’s important prep to do in the garden for the start of the concreting season this week.

IHTIH

@ Anonymous:

I@ Eeyore:

The other thing that seems to make this fit is that at the time Matt Schmucker was part of (maybe th ly person) in “the Center for Church Reform.”

What I think is going here is that Mark Dever likes to make it seem like God’s providence when in fact he was much more calculating. I’m mean, look at the men he has as interns — it’s not just random that he takes Owen, for example, and there are a lot of examples like that with the internship program.
(Don’t get me wrong, God is still sovereign, but the mealy mouth of Mark in describing what happen is something he does a lot when asked questions.)

As far as the neighborhood, just go to Jimmy T’s and ask the neighbors what they thought of Mark. In fact, the neighborhood was very upset with him for buying certain properties and tearing one of them down for the church. And they don’t really have an active ministry with other churches in the neighborhood. Just ask the African-American church one block away (where Frederick Douglass once went).

The point is that Mark is very calculating and people who know him get it.

Nancy2 wrote:

I do my grandma’s biscuits – super simple. Just milk, lard, and White Lily self-rising flour (White Lily is THE best.).

And all of God’s children said AMEN & AMEN! White Lily flour is THE best – also try their corn meal mix for the best cornbread in the world. We make “drop biscuits” to go with sausage gravy. Our grandson loves “gwavy.” Lard is the secret to good biscuits – Southern style. My mother and grandmother kept a 5-gallon can of lard in their kitchens – it’s what made fried food fried. Even with all the warnings about high cholesterol, heart problems, etc., they both lived well into their 80s.

(Deb, since I have drifted off topic with this comment, I’ll throw this in about the subject of your article: God don’t like it and I don’t either!)

Max wrote:

@ God:
Good Lord! God looks like Nick Bulbeck!!

Shocker!!

lowlandseer wrote:

@ Velour:
Jonathan Leeman warned recently of the dangers of the Shepherding movement when he was answering questions in his mailbox. You can access it from Challies.com.

And people in the tribe will believe they aren’t because they say they aren’t. It is that easy for them. It is amazing what sort of gravitas these folks have with people.

Challies also taught it was more spiritual to be ignorant about Mahaney. Leeman teaches there are human mediators between us and Christ, who hold the keys.

They aren’t exactly credible for me. I was reading Challies back when he first started. I think he has serious issues.

In fact in the early days, his blog was the first place I read comments declaring God is glorified when He throws babies into hell.

No one thought anything of this view over there. It was weird as if I had wandered into a foreign land and could not stop watching a train wreck. There are people out there who think this way about God and day it out loud!

Differing views were allowed but not typically from women. But the baby burners insisted the others views could not be proven from scripture. It was a creepy place. And then he became a famous blogger, minister, publisher and promoter of Reformed gurus.

Yikes. And now deflector and apologist extroidinaire.

@ K.D.:
HUG always explains this better than I can. But first, at least Today allows differing views, contrary to Voices/Pravda, and many are Calvinists trying to shame the Trads.

Back to Hug: what happens when the educated sincere wanting unity “Mark” is Conned? And I mean conned by very clever cons?

Church discipline was first introduced years back by the Neo Cals in the SBC as a resolution to clean up Church rolls so there were more accurate numbers reported. Everyone agreed and went along.

The subject of church discipline expanded from there. Who can argue with disciplining an unrepentant adulterer who brings his bimbo to church with wife and kids there?

They put every single church discipline scenario into terminology like that. As if SBC churches all over America were doing that.

They were using the binary system that dr. Fundystan mentioned earlier. If you don’t agree, then evidently you have no problem with unrepentant adulterers parading the bimbo in church.

It worked. And now, the Marks that got sucked in can’t admit they were conned so they waste time defending the concept instead of focusing on what it isn’t.

The Trads are simply not as diabolically clever as Dever or Mohler who strategize long-term. The Trads only respond. That is a dead position when dealing with cons.

And they dig the hole deeper because they want Unity with cons.

Anon wrote:

The point is that Mark is very calculating and people who know him get it.

There is an old playbook called Quiet Revolution written by Ernest Reisinger. It is free online. Pay attention to chapter 4. Then tell me how it does not teach it is good to deceive the ignorant pew sitters in the Name of God.

The young followers are not familiar with the book, they dont need to be, but the older guys are. It was the playbook for the SBC Founder’s movement early on.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:

@ Lea:

I was going to make a kind of lemon/caramel sponge in a biscuit base for pudding (or “dessert” if you prefer) tonight, but thought better of it as a) we’ve got rather a lot of puddingy stuff in the house just the noo, and b) there’s important prep to do in the garden for the start of the concreting season this week.

IHTIH

That sounds good, although I’m guessing you mean British not American biscuits 🙂

Which reminds me, I need to take another stab at the shortbread recipe a hotel in Scotland sent me that I loved.

@ Serving Kids In Japan:
My family once referred to my attempt at biscuits as the Ellie Mae Clampett recipe for biscuits.

Lydia wrote:

There is an old playbook called Quiet Revolution written by Ernest Reisinger. It is free online. Pay attention to chapter 4. Then tell me how it does not teach it is good to deceive the ignorant pew sitters in the Name of God.

For those not familiar with this, the book and its strategy are the products of the “Old” Calvinists within SBC, who refer to themselves as the “Founders.” Their by-line indicates that they are “Committed to Historic Baptist Principles” … meaning Calvinism, of course. There is a loose affiliation of the old guard with the Neo-Calvinists, who are accomplishing what the old boys could not … Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in America. The Founders’ “play book” that Lydia refers to can be found at http://founders.org/library/quiet/. I suspect it was the inspiration behind Dr. Mohler’s rebellion to wrest the denomination away from millions of good people who would not agree with reformed theology.

Lydia wrote:

@ K.D.:
HUG always explains this better than I can. But first, at least Today allows differing views, contrary to Voices/Pravda, and many are Calvinists trying to shame the Trads.

Back to Hug: what happens when the educated sincere wanting unity “Mark” is Conned? And I mean conned by very clever cons?

Church discipline was first introduced years back by the Neo Cals in the SBC as a resolution to clean up Church rolls so there were more accurate numbers reported. Everyone agreed and went along.

The subject of church discipline expanded from there. Who can argue with disciplining an unrepentant adulterer who brings his bimbo to church with wife and kids there?

They put every single church discipline scenario into terminology like that. As if SBC churches all over America were doing that.

They were using the binary system that dr. Fundystan mentioned earlier. If you don’t agree, then evidently you have no problem with unrepentant adulterers parading the bimbo in church.

It worked. And now, the Marks that got sucked in can’t admit they were conned so they waste time defending the concept instead of focusing on what it isn’t.

The Trads are simply not as diabolically clever as Dever or Mohler who strategize long-term. The Trads only respond. That is a dead position when dealing with cons.

And they dig the hole deeper because they want Unity with cons.

I am a newbie to to ” Today” and in truth, I am not shocked. ( I gathered there were people over there who were Calvinist infiltrators.)
The people who were “purged” back in the 1980s were naive and acted Christ-like to a group of people who I can see Christ saying to in the end…” I never knew you.”

Stunned wrote:

I’m sorry but I could NEVER be part of a church that had their own bumper stickers.

Hindsight is 20/20. My ex-NeoCal church (abusive, authoritarian, heavy-Shepherding, church discipline/excommunications for dissent, Patriarchy, Young Earth Creationism) also had, sigh, bumper stickers. I didn’t put one on my car. I wouldn’t touch them. But I will avoid a church again that has its own bumper stickers.

😀

Ken F wrote:

A few years ago I asked some questions about why my church had so much emphasis on children’s ministry and not so much emphasis on adult ministry, considering there is no mention of children’s ministry in the Bible.

If I may be so bold, it’s an issue of money. Most parents of minor children also evaluate churches based on their childrens’ ministries and will take their family (and weekly donation check) to another church with a better children’s ministry.

@ Velour:
The church marketing people know if you can get the children hooked, you get the family. People will literally stay in a church they don’t necessarily like if the kids are happy there.

@ Beakerj:
I love it! Yes, so true.

Have you read his “How to Read The Bible for All It’s Worth…” book?

It was one of the the first “Christian” books I read after only reading the Gospels for 3 years over and over. I just could not do Paul anymore. Fee helped me with Paul and realizing we must read Paul through a Jesus filter.

Lydia wrote:

@ K.D.:
Just to note: I wasn’t really defending but explaining. It is weird but my interest in all this is more about group dynamics, movement tactics, organizational development, trends, paradigm shifts, thinking processes, etc. Add all above to Jesus Christ as the motivator or excuse for it all.
I had to do some serious soul searching myself. In a way, I was inside to a certain degree but now on the outside looking in. And it doesn’t help I am surrounded by such cons for Jesus in my own family.
Brad Sargent is the first person I have come into contact with that approaches it from a systems perspective which is much less personal. I find it fascinating and devastating at the same time.
However, I don’t think our Lord is amused at all.

I understand…..this might be ugly, but some of the commenters on ” Today” ….well……I found to be a combination of alarming and disgusting at the same time…

Jack wrote:

I’m not debating YEC in this forum, I’m just using this as an example of academic dishonesty used to promote an agenda

I am COMPLETELY on board with you on this. It made me sick to watch the Nye/Ham debate because of what it did to undermine a “Biblical” view of creation. The YEC crowd drank the wrong kool-aid. I know many decent people who have been led to believe that this is the only tenable belief. Very sad. Ken Ham spouts so many self-contradictory statements that it can make one’s head spin. It’s done on purpose.

Ken F wrote:

. I’m absolutely not against ministering to children, but I’m wondering if the modern paradigm makes the most sense.

If is also a great place to start indoctrination of young minds . . .at the funnest, coolest kids club in the city . . . If the kids are happy, the parents follow, paying little attention to the doctrines.

@ K.D.:

“The church could care less about us now that we are pushing 60. We are just irrelevant, except for them wanting our money….”
++++++++++

do you still go? have you communicated this very thing to the leader(s)?

Max wrote:

For those not familiar with this, the book and its strategy are the products of the “Old” Calvinists within SBC, who refer to themselves as the “Founders.” Their by-line indicates that they are “Committed to Historic Baptist Principles” … meaning Calvinism, of course. There is a loose affiliation of the old guard with the Neo-Calvinists, who are accomplishing what the old boys could not … Calvinization of the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in America. The Founders’ “play book” that Lydia refers to can be found at http://founders.org/library/quiet/. I suspect it was the inspiration behind Dr. Mohler’s rebellion to wrest the denomination away from millions of good people who would not agree with reformed theology.

There is so much wrong with this document on so many levels (beyond the fact that the links for chapters 2 and 3 don’t work). If this document is true, it means that true Christianity was founded about 500 years ago. I can concede that it took time for theological issues to be worked through over the centuries, but it seems impossible that the church got it completely wrong for 1500 years.

In the big picture, counterfeits (money, clothing, watches, etc.) only have value because the real products exist. The new Calvinists are pushing counterfeit theology that has some of the same look and feel as the real stuff, which is the only reason they are successful. This new theology is dangerous because it makes it tempting to throw out the real stuff along with the counterfeit. That is what is happening with the “Dones.”

Velour wrote:

lowlandseer wrote:
I found this. CHBC was not well-liked by the neighbours as you can read here.
http://www.adamsetser.com/blog/2016/3/31/capitol-hill-baptist-church-weekender-conference-debriefing
The article, written by an adoring Mark Dever/9Marxist fan boy, could address problems neighbors had with parking but not the theological problems with Dever’s heavy-Shepherding teachings/authoritarianism. The fan boy trumpeted elder-led churches (more authoritarianism) omitting that Baptists have congregational votes.

I just read the first bit of that article, and was struck by this:

Since he began ministry in 1994, God has moved, and CHBC has developed a very different name, a name that’s transcended the hill and spread across our entire Evangelical subculture. They are known as the church that’s all about *the Church*—church polity, church government, doctrine of the church, church membership, church discipline, the works.

The church that’s all about the church — internally focused. Nothing about caring for the widow, the orphan, the downtrodden. (And this is true faith… http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/True-Religion)

Also, What makes CHBC so shocking? They stand behind the historic Baptist principles that made our denomination so strong. Some of those principles are: a strong view of membership which leads to a dedication to church discipline. Both of which come together to create a discipling community that extends from pulpit-to-pew in expositional preaching, which is tailored to teach not only the Gospel but also a fully-orbed Biblical Theology, and from person-to-person in intentional, covenant relationships. All supported and led by strong elder leadership that delegates tasks efficiently while still fulfilling their covenant obligation to the body by spending time to stay in touch with every member. All of these things are very ordinary, but all together, when done properly, they are shocking. In a word, what’s shocking isn’t the idealism of the church, it’s its realism.
Again, totally inward focused. There’s not even any reference to Matthew 28 and the Great Commission.

The article references “Orthodox growth” but it appears to be focused on making the local church grow in power and strength and study of the Law (not so much in grace and love, from the way it reads…)

Stunned wrote:

ou’re clearly missing out. If only you had the latest Christian woman around you, you could be more pinterest-worthy as a woman.

The Biblical Womanhood role model for women, as described by gender complmentarians, happens to closely resemble –
The Stepford Wives, crossed with the “Fem Bots” from Austin Powers movies,
and several dashes of June Cleaver, fictional 1950s TV housewife to husband Ward.

Daisy wrote:

They buckle down even more and try to entice teens and 20 somethings to show up.

My ex-NeoCal church (9Marxist, CBMW patriarchy nonsense, John MacArthur-ite) started a Bible study at the elite Stanford University to attract (high-income earning potential) undergraduate and graduate students. The poorer state university, San Jose State, was bypassed by the church. By getting Stanford students, they then invite their friends to the Bible study and church.

Additionally, my ex-NeoCal church rents churches from the established Seventh Day Adventist churches in high net-worth neighborhoods with multi-million dollar homes. The SDAs worship on Saturdays and many of them rent their churches to other groups for Sundays. My ex-NeoCal church never rented church space in a ‘poorer’ neighborhood. It’s all about catering to the elite, high-income earners. (And to think Jesus started out with a bunch of blue-collar fishermen.)

Jack wrote:

It seems that if the bible contains any errata then the whole Christian exercise is a failure, Christianity must be false.

I never thought of it that way. I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed, its claims about the person of Messiah, and especially its supernatural components as axioms. From there it has afforded me a wide latitude of human and intellectual freedom regarding the Bible and theological constructs.
If there is errata in Scripture it doesn’t force me to chuck the whole kit and kaboodle, I no longer need the 100% linearization that some believers insist upon and that causes other believers to convert to atheism.

Ken F wrote:

Great observation. A few years ago I asked some questions about why my church had so much emphasis on children’s ministry and not so much emphasis on adult ministry, considering there is no mention of children’s ministry in the Bible. The response was like I touched the third rail. I’m absolutely not against ministering to children, but I’m wondering if the modern paradigm makes the most sense.

I have been to (visited) churches that have merry- go – rounds in them (for the kids). We’re talking honest to goodness, full scale, working merry go rounds, complete with the horse sculptures that have empty saddles that you can sit on and ride on as the thing spins round.

If I remember correctly, Driscoll’s and /or Furtick’s churches had elaborate kiddie entertainment areas for the kids, with large video monitors, play area pits filled with lots of foam balls, and stuff like that.

I have read in several studies over the years that heavily entertainment based youth programs ends up causing a lot of kids to later leave the faith. I don’t remember all the in’s and out’s of why that is, but you could probably find those same studies online somewhere.

I listened to a Christian radio show where the host interviewed a guy who wrote a book or something about Sunday School and its history.

My memory on it is rather hazy, but if I recall correctly, he said that yesteryear’s Sun. school model does not work for today’s kids. The times have changed, and just sticking some rock bands, laser shows, and big video screens into a room for the kids isn’t going to make things better or reach them – according to the guy I heard anyway who wrote a whole book on the subject.

@ Ken F:
HILARIOUS!!! and on point…

refugee wrote:

The article references “Orthodox growth” but it appears to be focused on making the local church grow in power and strength and study of the Law (not so much in grace and love, from the way it reads…)

Exactly!

JYJames wrote:

Ken F wrote:
mirele wrote:
Try being a single, never married, childless adult above, say, 30 in a lot of these churches. We pretty much don’t exist. And considering how many of these churches run ladies’ Bible study during the day (when I have a job, yanno), it’s clear who they want as members.
It’s a great point. Now that I’m over 50 and all the kids are out of the house I’ve fallen into the irrelevant category as well.
This is so weird. Jesus was single and completed his ministry. Family is fine but most of the actors in the NT are presented in their work and calling sans the entourage of a family. Where did this cultural paradigm originate? It is not in the Bible.

I read somewhere recently (but can’t remember now — it might even have been a comment here at TWW) that the whole patriarchal/complementarian mindset comes from the Roman paterfamilias tradition.

K.D. wrote:

I am from the ” Deep South” and when we were there, we found the Scottish very easy to understand….that bunch in Northumberland however….WHEW!

Scottish Bat Man comic strip:
http://9gag.com/gag/aYpRzwq/scottish-batman

refugee wrote:

I read somewhere recently (but can’t remember now — it might even have been a comment here at TWW) that the whole patriarchal/complementarian mindset comes from the Roman paterfamilias tradition.

I think H.U.G. has written about that. When I was searching for the history of the word “obey” in some wedding vows, said by the bride (and being insisted on by many NeoCalvinist pastors to wed a couple) it turns out that it’s from pagan Roman marriage contract law and has NOTHING to do with Christianity. It’s not even used in most Christian countries.

Ken F wrote:

That is what is happening with the “Dones.”

What is happening with the Dones?

JYJames wrote:

What is happening with the Dones?

There was an earlier discussion here about people who leave the church never to return. They are “Done.”

Velour wrote:

Ken F wrote:
JYJames wrote:
What is happening with the Dones?
There was an earlier discussion here about people who leave the church never to return. They are “Done.”
The Dones being committed Christians, many who have given a great deal of time and money to their local churches (including many older Christians, conservatives, the elderly, couples) fed up with the problems of the institutional church. They are “Done” with church. The term is used as opposed to The Nones (those who aren’t believers and didn’t go to church).

But I think Nones could also be those who went to church, and were so harmed by it, that they rejected all belief in a god and became atheists or at the most agnostics. Not just unbelievers who didn’t go to church.

Two of our kids were raised in the church and are now Nones, not Dones.

K.D. wrote:

No, I am a done. Have been since I turned 50. The local churches are all ”pro-youth” and they have told me as such.

I would change to be Methodist or Anglican, but my 86 year old mother would never understand. She’s been Baptist forever and just doesn’t understand why anyone doesn’t go to church.

She has problem enough with me not attending.

Has she been to a church lately?

If not, start taking her around to various mega churches in your area, and expose her to the circus that is supposed to pass for church these days. The impersonal nature of it, the zoo atmosphere, the shallow preaching.

If you could drive her to a few of these trendy Baptist churches, and let her walk in alone ahead of you, then don’t sit next to her during the service.
She will most likely be ignored by everyone (other than a quick “hello” from one greeter at the door).

Then she can sit there and go deaf with the super loud rock music and sit dazed as the show starts, with the lasers, big monitors on stage and screeching band.

If she’s subjected to something like this video (by the way, I like most of Prince’s music just fine, this is not an indictment of his music)…

Cover of Prince’s ‘Purple Rain’ during Church Service at Church by the Glades:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x8EyWiu73Q

(I a not sure if that is a Baptist church or not, but there are some Baptist churches doing equally bizarre, idiotic things as well.)

If she witnessed all that lunacy in person for herself, I think she would start to understand why churches aren’t what they used to be and why they’re a turn off to people now.

Daisy wrote:

She will most likely be ignored by everyone

This happened when visiting a satellite of the largest church in my state. Talked with a young pastor in the lobby; he literally walked away from me mid-sentence.

Stopped by Trader Joe’s on the way home. My check-out cashier looked EXACTLY like the pastor. Same demographic. The cashier was over-the-moon friendly, asking about my day, etc.

The contrast was shocking.

Lea wrote:

Several people have mentioned this and it is absolutely appalling to me! I wonder if there is something about the showmanship of this style of church/worship that makes the leadership so focused on trivialities like looks?

You can find more on this page:
In Which They Are Overlooked In A Sea of Hipsters
http://sarahbessey.com/in-which-they-are-overlooked-in-a-sea-of-hipsters/

On occasion, such (similar) views are directed at males:

Via wenatchee the hatchet’s blog:

Mark [Driscoll, preacher] said in a [church] meeting that he did not want a certain staff elder (who was not slim) to take on a certain prominent leadership role because “his fat a– is not the image we want for our church.”

refugee wrote:

I read somewhere recently (but can’t remember now — it might even have been a comment here at TWW) that the whole patriarchal/complementarian mindset comes from the Roman paterfamilias tradition.

this page might get into that:

Submission in Context: Christ and the Greco-Roman Household Codes mindset comes from the Roman paterfamilias tradition.
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/mutuality-household-codes

Daisy wrote:

Velour wrote:
By the way, aren’t *Biblical men* supposed to wear dresses and sandals? After all, Jesus did.
That reference reminded me of –
“Pastors in Drag, Russell Moore, & Biblical Manhood: The Fruit Test”
https://tictocministries.wordpress.com/2015/10/08/pastors-in-drag-russell-moore-biblical-manhood-the-fruit-test/

That was really good, Daisy. I had heard of Grudem behind Comp doctrine/heresy. I didn’t realize it was John Piper too. Ohhh, now I get it. That explains everything. Piper is a nut case. Say no more.

@ Lydia:
Yes I have. He’s a famous Titan in terms of Biblical interpretation & a famous non-Calvinist.

Ken F wrote:

The Founders’ “play book” that Lydia refers to can be found at http://founders.org/library/quiet/.

I did some more searching on the Founders’ website. I saw the word “winsome” in a post so I did a search and found numerous hits (this is an interesting new-Calvinist word that makes no sense to use in the way they do, but I digress). Here’s what one of the posts said about Southern Baptist editors: “Editors and writers who attack central doctrines of the faith, such as penal substitutionary atonement, must be called into account and, if they will not recant or clarify in a way that is squares with Scripture, such journalists should be asked to resign their post for theological malfeasance.” How gracious. Time for another inquisition?

On May 15th I posted two items on the open discussion. One is a list of questions about penal substitution, and the other is a list of links to articles that refute if from different theological traditions. The bottom line is penal substitution does not square with scripture. So the Founders are forcing good people to accept, in the name of squaring with scripture, doctrines invented only 500 years ago that have been rejected by the vast majority of Christians throughout history and that do not square with scripture.

If there are any advocates of penal substitution out there I would very much like one of you to answer the questions I posted on May 15. I don’t think you can, but I could be wrong.

@ elastigirl:
Snicker snicker

Ken F wrote:

If there are any advocates of penal substitution out there I would very much like one of you to answer the questions I posted on May 15. I don’t think you can, but I could be wrong.

Many of us liked your indepth questions (and the list of links) on this topic. I copied both and put them at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, the Books, Movies, etc. tab for those that would like to easily find them.

@ Velour:
That’s great, Velour. Knowing you’re not alone goes far in the sanity department, I’ve found.

@ Ken F:
It is a whole other world over there. I had a complete- by accident- run in with one of their acolyte young pastors that blew my mind.

Have you ever been totally innocent of something and have a total stranger come out of nowhere and accuse you of thef that was actually a coincidence concerning something I posted online he did not own but was public use? It was bizarre!

This young pastor was so over the top and off the rails histrionic and hot headed I was actually afraid he might find out where I live or something. I realky feel sorry for his wife! He did not even give me a chance to fully understand and ask questions.

You have no idea how grateful I am we have no state church today. And no thinking.

He still pastors. I really think there is a dark strain there.

Winsome: “generally pleasing and engaging often because of a childlike charm and innocence” (from merriam-webster.com).

I searched John Piper’s website for this word and it returned 72 items. John MacArthur’s site returned 103 items. The Gospel Coalition site returned 572. This word is obviously very important to them.

My wife and I were discussing what they really mean by it. I’m thinking it’s a euphemism for “phony” but my wife thinks “castrated” works better.

Max wrote:

The Founders’ “play book” that Lydia refers to can be found at http://founders.org/library/quiet/.

The ‘Quiet Revolution’ how-to manual was never updated to clarify what soon happened to the subject of the experiment, North Pompano Baptist Church. Ernest Reisinger clashed with a fellow elder, a “1689 Reformed Baptist” partisan who left the church taking with him many members. The test case church for implementation of Founders dogmas went belly up not long afterwards.

I can tell you they tried to cover up a child abuse scandal. Shamefully, my brother was a deacon at the time. One of the youth leaders was taking pre-adolescent and adolescent boys off church grounds and sexually abused them. The church did nothing to help the boys and tried to keep it hush hush from the congregation and outsiders. It was horrible. The Deebs know more. Ann@ Catholic Gate-Crasher:

Ken F wrote:

Winsome: “generally pleasing and engaging often because of a childlike charm and innocence” (from merriam-webster.com).

Winsome. The Neo-cal’s version of “Keep Sweet”.
http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/02/keep-sweet-conspiracy.html

Lydia wrote:

When I was growing up there was never this sense of plural collectivism as we see today when talking about the local church. There was more of a sense of individuals who come together ‘as individuals’ and make up a body of Christ.

One time I was in a discussion with a guy and said something along the lines that God saves individuals and that the church is made up of individuals.
This said, no, that God saves families and builds the church with families, NOT individuals. He stated it as some undeniable fact though he didn’t bother to support it scripturally.

God doesn’t save individuals anymore. He saves blocks of people, herds of sheep, or something now.

Mara wrote:

Lydia wrote:

One time I was in a discussion with a guy and said something along the lines that God saves individuals and that the church is made up of individuals.

This said, no, that God saves families and builds the church with families, NOT individuals. He stated it as some undeniable fact though he didn’t bother to support it scripturally.

God doesn’t save individuals anymore. He saves blocks of people, herds of sheep, or something now.

Woa. Scary.

@ siteseer:

And, most importantly, “the works” doesn’t include the spiritual welfare of the believers. How are they doing? Are they encouraged? Are they comforted? Are their needs being met? NOTHING about that.

Daisy wrote:

I’m in my 40s. I don’t need to be enticed to attend with a rockin’ happenin’ worship band, or with a shop in the lobby that sells lattes. I actually find that stuff super lameo.

40 year olds and older are much harder to flatter, buy or hoodwink. Ideological movements always target the young.

siteseer wrote:

The church we’ve been attending is planning to bring in a program called “Authentic Manhood”

Red Flag Alert: There is an “Authentic Manhood” bible study making the rounds with Matt Chandler on the teaching team. Chandler is a New Calvinist celebrity/idol, an SBC pastor, and President of Acts 29. The “beauty of complementarity” and authoritarian leadership will surely be embedded in the curriculum … propped up by reformed theology, of course.

Lydia wrote:

When I was growing up there was never this sense of plural collectivism as we see today when talking about the local church. There was more of a sense of individuals who come together ‘as individuals’ and make up a body of Christ.

Isn’t identity by group part of the postmodern paradigm?

Ken F wrote:

This new theology is dangerous because it makes it tempting to throw out the real stuff along with the counterfeit.

And whose plan would that be? The enemy of the Church is a master of the counterfeit. If he can cripple us with half-truths and teachings that drift from keeping the Main thing the main thing, he can get us off-course from fulfilling the Great Commission in our generation.

siteseer wrote:

JYJames wrote:
Ken F wrote:
That is what is happening with the “Dones.”
What is happening with the Dones?
Healing

Amen!

@ Deb:
Good. It will be interesting to see what you find out about the Dudebros in this regard. There are so many veins of New Calvinism, I can’t keep up with them!

Lydia wrote:

This young pastor was so over the top and off the rails histrionic and hot headed I was actually afraid he might find out where I live or something. I realky feel sorry for his wife! He did not even give me a chance to fully understand and ask questions.

You have no idea how grateful I am we have no state church today. And no thinking.

He still pastors.

He still “pastors”, is that what they call it? Maybe there is a connection between such “pastoring” and “dones”. Nah, dones are just slackers, better off without them. /sarcasm off

@ siteseer:
I also think that adults have jobs, kids, lives, and don’t spend 40 hours a week studying obscure theological references–and those references eventually snowball & overtake their lives.

@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
And you win the internet today.

Bill Kinnon wrote:

Lydia wrote:

is incredible to me that one man was the Catalyst for the the SBC’s huge investment in this cultic racket: Al Mohler.

All it takes is a little leaven, eh!

Ha! We should remember this when we feel like we’re not doing any good in our ministries!
I met Mohler once, nearly 20 years ago. He weirded me out.

XianJaneway wrote:

I also think that adults have jobs, kids, lives, and don’t spend 40 hours a week studying obscure theological references–and those references eventually snowball & overtake their lives.

Any ideas about how Christians can avoid this? (People who used to go to my ex-NeoCal church said that they received many warnings from wise, older Christians in their families about our church, its structure, beliefs and ‘just no’ and ‘stay away’ and ‘don’t join’. I wish there were people in my life who had given me this warnings and different churches I could have tried instead that weren’t taken over by NeoCalvinism/heavy-Shepherding/Comp-Patriarchy/Young Earth Creationism/Authoritarianism.

Velour wrote:

Ken F wrote:

JYJames wrote:
What is happening with the Dones?
There was an earlier discussion here about people who leave the church never to return. They are “Done.”

The Dones being committed Christians, many who have given a great deal of time and money to their local churches (including many older Christians, conservatives, the elderly, couples) fed up with the problems of the institutional church. They are “Done” with church. The term is used as opposed to The Nones (those who aren’t believers and didn’t go to church).

Key words being “committed Christians”. There are several in my own circle who fall into the Done category. I may be headed there myself one day…can’t say now.

refugee wrote:

Yes, exactly! I heard Tim Bayly say almost the same words at a family conference.

According to Tim Bayly & the other authoritarians/Patriarchists because God is now saving entire families, not just individuals, the Patriarchs must “take charge” of the whole family, because obviously the Holy Spirit can’t do anything right in our lives and needs mortal men to do the task. And women can’t think on their own. And the Holy Spirit is fully functioning in men but the Holy Spirit is defective and can’t function properly in women.

Just your usual insufferable tyrants.

refugee wrote:

The church that’s all about the church — internally focused. Nothing about caring for the widow, the orphan, the downtrodden. .. There’s not even any reference to Matthew 28 and the Great Commission.
The article references “Orthodox growth” but it appears to be focused on making the local church grow in power and strength and study of the Law (not so much in grace and love, from the way it reads…)

Oh yes. CHBC was *all* about that when I was there. VERY rules and obligation-focused. A traditional Lutheran (I was raised as such) would walk into CHBC and after observing it, come away saying “All Law – no Gospel.” (In the Lutheran sense of “Law” as our obligations to God, and “Gospel” as God’s mercy towards us in Christ)

I have been glancing at the blog. Is this YRR movement a perverted manifestation of the church growth movement that has been splitting churches? Part of this church growth movement is the signing of church covenants by church members. Neo evangelicals appear to be going the extra mile to try stopping the loss of church members in an increasingly secular world, and this includes the use of church discipline to bully people into staying in church? It has morphed into an authoritarian lock step group think system . A couple years ago there was news about a mega church pastor at a baptist church in Germantown who was ousted because of church growth ideas. People who ousted him did not feel that church growth movement is biblical? Just asking? I don’t count myself a neoevangelical. Years ago I decided they were too gimmicky. And this YRR is one more of their gimmicks, but a gimmick with disastrous consequences.

Jerome<siteseer wrote:

The “individual” without power or wealth won’t have much to offer our society except as a group drone.

Ken F wrote:

Winsome: “generally pleasing and engaging often because of a childlike charm and innocence” (from merriam-webster.com).

Also sounds like a good way to condition people to want to be childlike so they don’t stand up to you.

Mark wrote:

I have been glancing at the blog. Is this YRR movement a perverted manifestation of the church growth movement that has been splitting churches? Pa

That’s my view with a few variations. The seeker megas of the CGM also had sort of quasi church contracts but not usually with such a heavy hand. They might have new member classes with what looked like to many the basic employee handbook you read and sign. It would have a clause about speaking positive of the church and leaders. A mild pre curser to the current Hotel California membership covenants. The CGM could not afford to alienate non members. A big portion of money flowed from those just attending but not joining.

The signing or pledging to the church is not new– just enforced with the newer focus on “church discipline”.

I find it amusing the current crop of YRR make the argument they are the biblical response to the unbiblical seeker church as they use so many of the same hip cool strategies from that earlier movement –right down to the children’s ministries.

Daisy wrote:

K.D. wrote:

No, I am a done. Have been since I turned 50. The local churches are all ”pro-youth” and they have told me as such.

I would change to be Methodist or Anglican, but my 86 year old mother would never understand. She’s been Baptist forever and just doesn’t understand why anyone doesn’t go to church.

She has problem enough with me not attending.

Has she been to a church lately?

If not, start taking her around to various mega churches in your area, and expose her to the circus that is supposed to pass for church these days. The impersonal nature of it, the zoo atmosphere, the shallow preaching.

If you could drive her to a few of these trendy Baptist churches, and let her walk in alone ahead of you, then don’t sit next to her during the service.
She will most likely be ignored by everyone (other than a quick “hello” from one greeter at the door).

Then she can sit there and go deaf with the super loud rock music and sit dazed as the show starts, with the lasers, big monitors on stage and screeching band.

If she’s subjected to something like this video (by the way, I like most of Prince’s music just fine, this is not an indictment of his music)…

Cover of Prince’s ‘Purple Rain’ during Church Service at Church by the Glades:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x8EyWiu73Q

(I a not sure if that is a Baptist church or not, but there are some Baptist churches doing equally bizarre, idiotic things as well.)

If she witnessed all that lunacy in person for herself, I think she would start to understand why churches aren’t what they used to be and why they’re a turn off to people now.

I live in a very rural area. Some Calvinists are starting to infiltrate, or the have maybe, just maybe some Bible College training. Seminary? Some do, but many do not, and for the most part, the biggest Baptist mega-church is miles away. Most ” Magas” if you can call them that, are associated with Pentecostalism and Grandma ain’t going near the place.
There is a Methodist church nearby, and there is an Episcopal Church within driving distance, and they do have a Rite I at 8am on Sundays, and if I were to attend church EVER again, those two would be my only choices…

Max wrote:

I feel odd criticizing church growth

I don’t. I think this kind of church growth is not the healthy kind that occurs naturally but a cold blooded attempt to garner cash and plaudits from others for having a big church.

There are benefits to a larger church, more people ‘like you’, whether you are single, married, teenaged, elderly, etc..(although maybe not elderly at some of these churches). But you can’t have a real church community beyond a certain size. You can have small groups only. I can’t see how a church that can’t even fit in its building would work properly though. And I hate the satellite church model. I do not want to watch the pastor on tv at church. I can do that from home in my pjs.

@ Deb:
I wonder if “Authentic Manhood” has any lineal connection to The Leadership Network which birthed Mark Driscoll into prominence. At that time, his statements like the following inspired a generation of Dudebros that the church is having to deal with now:

“Here’s what I’ve learned. You cast vision for your mission, and if people don’t sign up, you move on. You move on. There are people that are gonna die in the wilderness, and there are people that are gonna take the hill. That’s just how it is. Too many guys waste too much time trying to move stiff necked, stubborn, obstinate people. I am all about blessed subtraction. There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus (chuckle), and by God’s grace, it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done…. You either get on the bus, or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options. But the bus ain’t gonna stop.” (Mark Driscoll)

Well, we know that the pile of dead bodies behind Drisocll’s bus was indeed a mountain by the time he was done at Mars Hill! It was an agonizing hill to die on for multitudes impacted by Driscoll’s “ministry.” If that’s an example of “authentic” manhood, we could use less of it!

Max wrote:

You either get on the bus, or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options. But the bus ain’t gonna stop.” (Mark Driscoll)

Authentic Manhood: Just like Jesus!

Muff Potter wrote:

I never thought of it that way. I hold to the tenets of The Apostle’s Creed, its claims about the person of Messiah, and especially its supernatural components as axioms. From there it has afforded me a wide latitude of human and intellectual freedom regarding the Bible and theological constructs.
If there is errata in Scripture it doesn’t force me to chuck the whole kit and kaboodle, I no longer need the 100% linearization that some believers insist upon and that causes other believers to convert to atheism.

I remember both the Apostles & Nicene creeds being read as part of the liturgy when I grew up as an Anglican. The evangelical church I attended was affiliated with Pentacostal Assemblies of Canada (I think Assemblies of God). In my time there liturgy was looked down on & there appeared to be no creed espoused. I found it to be “make it up as we go along” sort of worship. I don’t know about Baptists or other evangelical denominations but it seems that there is much focus on the Pastor. Perhaps this is why there is strict adherence to a literal bible. I always found it hypocritical that they would put down liturgical worship and yet buy canned programs like “Purpose Driven Life” and follow them to the letter. BTW, Purpose Driven Life is what put the nail in the church coffin for me. I knew it was not for me with “covenant” you were supposed to sign at the start of the book. After that program the church implemented a covenant for members to sign, though it appears to no longer have one.
It appears though that liturgy is not a panacea for neo-calvinism. There was an Anglican church on one of the lists of neo-cal churches (not sure if it was TWW or Eagle’s blog)

Velour wrote:

My ex-NeoCal church never rented church space in a ‘poorer’ neighborhood. It’s all about catering to the elite, high-income earners.

I have seen NeoCal churches in working class neighborhoods, but overall I’d say it’s a brand that doesn’t sit will with blue collar or relatively poor and uneducated people.

Max wrote:

There is an “Authentic Manhood” bible study making the rounds with Matt Chandler on the teaching team.

Gag me. I’m too old to worry about my masculinity but if I were I’d have a hard time modeling mine off men who seem so insecure about theirs.

@ NJ:

After doing some background research, the book I picked as probably the best one for overall history and analysis is *The Shepherding Movement: Controversy and Charismatic Ecclesiology* by S. David Moore.

http://www.amazon.com/Shepherding-Movement-Pentecostal-Theology-Supplement/dp/0826471609/

It would be really helpful to have a summary of key activities and indicators that demonstrate the presence of an underlying pro-Shepherding/authoritarian discipleship paradigm, and what contemporary groups function from that paradigm, and the history of the who and how that system got into those groups. I don’t yet know of any books that cover those details. Maybe a group can take that on sometime …

Lea wrote:

Max wrote:

You either get on the bus, or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options. But the bus ain’t gonna stop.” (Mark Driscoll)

Authentic Manhood: Just like Jesus!

“I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!”

Velour wrote:

According to Tim Bayly & the other authoritarians/Patriarchists because God is now saving entire families, not just individuals, the Patriarchs must “take charge” of the whole family, because obviously the Holy Spirit can’t do anything right in our lives and needs mortal men to do the task. And women can’t think on their own. And the Holy Spirit is fully functioning in men but the Holy Spirit is defective and can’t function properly in women.

And naturally Tim Bayly puts himself in the Patriarch category, along with Tywin Lannister.

Jack wrote:

Purpose Driven Life is what put the nail in the church coffin for me

You can tell when programs like this fall out of favor in the church when books show up at yard sales. I run across Warren’s book “Purpose Driven Life” at yard sales all the time now. I keep hoping for a bumper crop of Piper books to make their way to garage sale tables soon!

Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

reformation doctrine of ” priesthood of the believer

That is not a Reformation doctrine. It was around well before the Reformation.

Lea wrote:

Some people think he’s weally weally sorry

Being weally weally sorry is not the same as repentance. Bill Clinton was weally sorry about his Lewinsky fling, but the choir-singing Southern Baptist was not repentant. Driscoll has launched a non-repentant comeback; it is godly sorrow that worketh repentance the Bible says … has anyone seen any evidence of a godly sorrow in Driscoll’s life since his fall?

NJ wrote:

So far, the two biggies seem to be multiple cell groups under the authority of one leader (with much sin sniffing going on), and signed membership covenants.

“accountability”

good point.
Bridget wrote:

Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
reformation doctrine of ” priesthood of the believer
That is not a Reformation doctrine. It was around well before the Reformation.

Max wrote:

In my way of thinking, the Anabaptists were the true “reformers” of the 16th century.

Of course, that business in munster was a bit of a mess.

Max wrote:

Exactly. Priesthood of the believer and soul competency were professions of faith by the Anabaptists …

Well, as far as I can tell it was around long before the Anabaptists, too. I see it in the teachings of Jesus and the disciples.

Mark wrote:

Neo evangelicals appear to be going the extra mile to try stopping the loss of church members in an increasingly secular world, and this includes the use of church discipline to bully people into staying in church? It has morphed into an authoritarian lock step group think system

The NeoCalvinists use of membership covenants serves several functions. First, it’s just a form of authoritarian control of church leaders over members (disguised by a whole bunch of Scripture verses on page after page to catch people off guard and make it seem ‘nice’).

The first woman I saw get *disciplined before all* at my ex-NeoCal church was a middle-aged professional woman and wife has left our church for a saner, more stable denomination. She wasn’t present for the *discipline* session. The senior pastor said that she “hadn’t been submissive to her husband” and that they had “worked with her for a long time”. Hundreds of church members, in a meeting after the church service, were ordered to “pursue her”, in other words to harass her. She responded to this by disconnecting her cell phone, email, and moving out of the family home to an undisclosed location that even her husband didn’t know.

When I later interviewed her she said the pastors/elders had repeatedly threatened her and screamed at her for wanting to leave the church. She said the senior pastor had come to their home and screamed at her in person!

Others were disciplined for any reason. Any critical thinking skills gets one disciplined, threatened with not being one of us, threatened in pastors/elders meetings, by phone, etc.
It was horrible. Many families, couples, and singles quietly fled. Others were excommunicated and shunned.

Lea wrote:

The Babylon bee has a mark Driscol post. The facebook comments are interesting. Some people think he’s weally weally sorry, plus who are you to judge, plus grace!!! Oy.

Mark Driscoll has never gone back to Seattle to make amends for the damage he did to Paul Petry and his wife, and children (fired, excommunicated and lied about Paul for opposing Driscoll’s consolidation of power which was un-biblical), all of the other people that Driscoll harmed. The Joyful Exiles blog (the Petry’s blog) has noted that Driscoll has never apologized to them.

NJ wrote:

I like the idea of coming up with a list of jargon and especially practices that would indicate the presence of Shepherding theology, whether the leaders themselves know its origin or not. The words they use may be changed at any time, but the practices undergo cosmetic changes at most.

I thought about some key indicators, and remembered that a lot of them are in the lists for this post I wrote on “Calvinistas” a few years ago. Although Shepherding-type authoritarianism isn’t only in Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan or Pentecostal settings, there is a common paradigm of thinking that always separates things into classes and categories, and that similarity goes far deeper than the doctrinal differences.

https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/calvinistas/

FWIW, here’s a bullet list of some of the items on those lists, and I’ll leave the descriptions of them over there.

* Dualism
* Reductionism
* Perfectionism
* Patriarchalism
* Totalism and Authoritarianism
* Dominionism

About the only other thing I think I’d add to this is something having to do with the ways these groups tend to “collaborate.” If they engage in ministry partnerships at all, it’s like to be where there is high overlap on those other essential approaches to thinking processes, systems, personal growth or behavior modification, authority and subservience, and stance toward culture. And the rest of the churches-theologians-Christians are labeled as either non-gospel, heretical, etc.

Max wrote:

Bridget wrote:
That is not a Reformation doctrine. It was around well before the Reformation.
Exactly. Priesthood of the believer and soul competency were professions of faith by the Anabaptists … which were persecuted by magisterial reformers (including the Calvinists). The Anabaptists were considered heretics by the Calvinists because they emphasized that the real church is comprised of baptized “believers”, rather than a predestined elect. They weren’t heretics at all – they were the real deal when you consider their tenets of faith with the whole of Scripture. In my way of thinking, the Anabaptists were the true “reformers” of the 16th century.

You’ve been reading Bill Estep’s books? 🙂

K.D. wrote:

You’ve been reading Bill Estep’s books?

No, haven’t read Estep. Calvinist Leonard Verduin made a strong scholarly case that the Anabaptists should be given more credit than the Calvinists as the true reformers in his book “The Reformers and Their Stepchildren.” As I’ve studied their belief and practice, I find them more in-line with the early church than the magisterial reformers.

Max wrote:

Bridget wrote:
That is not a Reformation doctrine. It was around well before the Reformation.
Some historians say that Jon Huss and the anabaptists were the real beginning of the reformation… and for that matter, so was John Wycliffe… Like any significant movement/change, more than one specific “first cause”…

The irony is that the TG4G this year made a big deal out of the reformation; yet they are downplaying key theological tenants… how convenient..

Exactly. Priesthood of the believer and soul competency were professions of faith by the Anabaptists … which were persecuted by magisterial reformers (including the Calvinists). The Anabaptists were considered heretics by the Calvinists because they emphasized that the real church is comprised of baptized “believers”, rather than a predestined elect. They weren’t heretics at all – they were the real deal when you consider their tenets of faith with the whole of Scripture. In my way of thinking, the Anabaptists were the true “reformers” of the 16th century.

Sorry about confusion… my comment ended up in the middle of the post:
“Some historians…. how convenient”

@ Velour:

This is not a movement I’ve studied much, just noted bits and pieces of the Patriarchy patterns.

I’d note, though, that this all seems to fit the problem pattern of trying to reproduce Old Testament culture and live under the Law with the patriarch functioning as a pedagogue who covers every under his tutelage and thus acts as the mediator between them and God, like a family priest. However, a theological problem here is that there is only one mediator between God and humanity, the man Christ Jesus.

Stunned wrote:

Little did I know that this prophecy was true

I’m sure everyone in SGM was kept incubated. We weren’t informed of outside criticism or of any “words from the Lord.” It’s my contention that Mahaney isn’t motivated by any spiritual gift – he only pretends to be in possession of one, two, or three, or four. The list goes on! I knew he regarded himself as an Apostle, a Leader, a Pastor, a President, etc., but did you know he was also a Prophet!? No wonder Robin Boisvert thought he was such a great man! We all saw how effectively he used his pastoral gift when he told Sovereign Grace Baptist Church of Louisville to use their talents and protect him from the slandering slanderers out to get him.

Scroll to the bottom and read Jon Sidnell’s comment:

I seem to remember sometime ago you posted an article from Restoration magazine written by CJ about prophetic ministry. I was a bit wary cos i’ve never been a massive fan of SGM, but found CJs bio very interesting – he was described as a prophet on Larry Tomczak’s apostolic team.

Max wrote:

@ Deb:
I wonder if “Authentic Manhood” has any lineal connection to The Leadership Network which birthed Mark Driscoll into prominence.

Yep. http://www.mensfraternity.com/#!about-robert-lewis/c16l

“Robert Lewis has been a pastor, writer, speaker, and visionary for over forty years. Robert founded the original Men’s Fraternity and developed the Men’s Fraternity curriculum in 1990 while serving as Teaching Pastor and Directional Leader at Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock, Arkansas. Robert was named Pastor of the Year by the National Coalition of Men’s Ministry in recognition for his efforts to help men discover Authentic Manhood.

.
Today, Robert is still very involved in local church ministry and serves on a number of boards including The Bob Buford Institute. He is also a senior advisor to Leadership Network. ”

.

Ken F wrote:

Most of the new Calvinists that I have looked up have connections with Founders Ministries … If you cannot find a direct link then look up Tom Ascol on the various sites. He seems to be one of the links gluing these various ministries together.

Yet, Tom Ascol is not sharing in all the glory of New Calvinist successes. He is writing no popular books, not appearing on stage with NC celebrities, the YRR never tweet his name. I suppose he might be the movement’s wizard behind the curtain – perhaps Mohler’s inspiration – but Ascol is not on the radar within NC circles. I doubt that most YRR even know his name. The New Calvinists are accomplishing what the Founders could never do … Calvinization of the Southern Baptist Convention. Perhaps the old guard was just waiting on the energy of youth to pull it off. When the new reformers secure the throne, Ascol and Mohler might tip a glass, but Ascol and his band of Founders will fade into obscurity.

Bill Kinnon wrote:

Interesting to think how the influence of the Shepherding movement winds its way through Mahaney into 9Marx and then into the SBC and YRR.

Charles Simpson (of Shepherding/Discipleship fame) is the Grand-daddy of church covenants.

Simpson was also the only one of the five who continued with little change in direction or focus. He was ordained as Southern Baptist in the late 50s and continued pastoring a SB church until the early 70s. His current church is COVENANT Church. And after the shep/disc movement blew up, he basically continued the movement renaming it ‘Covenant Movement.”

It is the same theology of covenant that came out of the shepherding/discipleship movement that is growing and producing the same fruit in today’s ‘movements’.

The current ‘covenantal’ issues are identical to the ones from the 70s.

Young men placed (or taking) places of authority, hyper-authoritarianism, emphasis on submission of women and no-ranking men, emphasis on obeying the man o’ God, emphasis on patriarchy, emphasis on large families, emphasis on women not working outside the home, finally getting church & relationships ‘right’, emphasis on discipline (lower levels only), young men in authority teaching about submission who really were not submitting to anyone themselves, anyone questioning or expressing concern were quickly determined to be proud, arrogant, disobedient (the only sin that mattered was “tone” of the low-levels).

The following article has several good points. Note the date – 2004.

http://incrementalist.com/blog/2014/03/08/the-shepherding-movement-comes-of-age/

“The Shepherding Movement Comes of Age

By Lynn and Sarah Leslie

January, 2004

“There is a new twist in the old Shepherding Movement and it is coming soon to your church, if it hasn’t already. This new twist is presented to pastors wrapped in silver gilding, and looks quite reasonable and rational. Should a discerning pastor, or one who steeps himself in the Word, take a second look, the gild disappears and in its place will appear rust and corrosion.

Across the country, parishioners are now being challenged to take oaths, perform vows and sign covenants. These things would have been unheard of in generations past for one simple reason. These things used to be forbidden, or only permitted under the gravest of circumstances.”

More at the link.

Max wrote:

but Ascol is not on the radar within NC circles

I hope you are right, but I saw enough today to be convinced that Ascol is one of the big players because his name appears everywhere. He might enjoy pulling the strings in the shadow. Piper seems to be the visible ringleader, but I’ve never understood how this can be because he does not appear to have enough intelligence to pull it off. The proof is in his numerous self-contradictions in his various teachings. I think Piper is playing the role of “useful idiot” while others are doing all the real work out of sight. Or Piper could be playing the role of Pulcinello – making the audience wonder whether he is a fool trying to be wise, or a wise man pretending to be a fool.

Velour wrote:

The first woman I saw get *disciplined before all* at my ex-NeoCal church was a middle-aged professional woman and wife has left our church for a saner, more stable denomination. She wasn’t present for the *discipline* session. The senior pastor said that she “hadn’t been submissive to her husband” and that they had “worked with her for a long time”. Hundreds of church members, in a meeting after the church service, were ordered to “pursue her”, in other words to harass her. She responded to this by disconnecting her cell phone, email, and moving out of the family home to an undisclosed location that even her husband didn’t know.
When I later interviewed her she said the pastors/elders had repeatedly threatened her and screamed at her for wanting to leave the church. She said the senior pastor had come to their home and screamed at her in person!

I wish she could have taped some of this.

Jack wrote:

In my time there liturgy was looked down on & there appeared to be no creed espoused. I found it to be “make it up as we go along” sort of worship. I don’t know about Baptists or other evangelical denominations but it seems that there is much focus on the Pastor. Perhaps this is why there is strict adherence to a literal bible.

Before there was a ‘written’ intact Bible, there was a ‘liturgy’ in the early Church, where portions of the Holy Gospels were read and where the letters of the Apostles were read aloud. It’s a good thing that the Councils of the early Church did not hold the active liturgy of the people in contempt, but instead examined the liturgies of all of the main centers of Christianity which had been established out of Jerusalem,
and finding the parts of the liturgies that over time and in all these places had been consistently read aloud from the Gospels and the Letters, the early Councils were able to find and form a CANON that today even those fundamentalists who embrace ‘inerrant literate-ness’ draw from.

It’s strange how the beauty of the early Church is cast aside by some as ‘not needed now’ or ‘in the way’ or ‘meaningless in our modern time’;
when so many Christian people understand that there was a pledge made by the early Church and followed over time to take the teachings of the Apostles and preserve them and hand them down to those who would carry them into the world in the future.

Many evangelicals and almost all fundmentalists have little understanding of ‘the liturgy’, but they can thank our ancient practices of worship for providing a major source of confirming the earliest copies used throughout Christendom of the Gospels and the Letters. That ‘Service of the Word’? It always has been based on the reading from and praying from the treasured writings that make up the canon.

Ken F wrote:

I hope you are right, but I saw enough today to be convinced that Ascol is one of the big players because his name appears everywhere. He might enjoy pulling the strings in the shadow.

I suppose that once New Calvinism conquers all of Christendom, they might drag Ascol to the front and crown him king of all. Those who pull strings in the shadows give me the heebie-jeebies. This whole movement has too much darkness in it.

@ brad/futuristguy:

Thanks Brad for adding what you know about modern-day Patriarchy (heresy). Yes, that sums it up nicely: trying to replicate Old Testament culture and law, law, and more law.

@ Paula Rice:
PS. Who is Pettit?

Christiane wrote:

Many evangelicals and almost all fundmentalists have little understanding of ‘the liturgy’, but they can thank our ancient practices of worship for providing a major source of confirming the earliest copies used throughout Christendom of the Gospels and the Letters.

I found the NeoCalvinists at my ex-church to be immature and arrogant. They dismiss all other denominations as not being “true Christians” and “they don’t know the ‘real’ Jesus”. And NeoCals like Al Mohler, Mark Dever, and the rest of ’em think they have have discovered ‘long lost Biblical truths’ that everybody else missed…for hundreds of years. Just arrogant. Every last one of them. Not a single shred of Christian humility is exhibited by them. Brotherly love? Never.

Has anyone here read Jerome D. Frank’s book Persuasion and Healing?
(He was a professor of Psychiatry at The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine.)
It was recommended to me post-bad church experience/heavy Shepherding. (I bought a used copy online.)

I’m reading the chapter on Thought Reform right now, and it’s what we’ve also been discussing
about these cultic practices that the NeoCalvinists have embraced. I’m looking forward to reading the chapter on Non-Medical Healing, which from what I’ve skimmed reminds me of Nouthetic Counseling (“Bible is sufficient counsel for everything”, aka malpractice, the unauthorized practice of medicine by untrained pastors/elders).

The Low Sparrow wrote:

he said no one should have as much fun in the bedroom as the Christian. It felt quite creepy

These people have issues with sex. Clearly. They can’t quit talking about it!

Lydia wrote:

Anabaptists were not monolithic. They were mostly hunted like animals and drowned for daring to practice adult baptism. Both men and women.

Oh sure. I don’t know scads about the Anabaptists but I listen to a podcast called ‘hardcore history’ and they did one on the munster deal (prophets of doom). Fascinating.

One of the things they said was the drowning that killed them was referred to as the ‘third baptism’ as a sort of dark humor I suppose.

Lea wrote:

These people have issues with sex. Clearly. They can’t quit talking about it!

They can’t help it … it’s their “authentic manhood” kicking in! Macho Man Driscoll’s “Real Marriage” book is essentially pornographic and Piper’s occasional one-liner tweets with sexual innuendos only add to the creepy aura that floats about him. A strange bunch, indeed, for young folks to be hanging out with (even if they are restless and reformed).

Ken F wrote:

I think Piper is playing the role of “useful idiot” while others are doing all the real work out of sight

Ha! I just posted a comment with “useful idiot.” Piper and Ascol are not directly related. Ascol does his work behind the scenes, but he was part of the “unity” panel in the SBC which was supposedly about bringing the two sides together. I do not see that happening except for those who are strictly pragmatic.

Gram3 wrote:

the “unity” panel in the SBC

That panel essentially told non-Calvinist SBC members (the denominational majority) to sit down and shut up about Calvinism, agree to disagree, get along to go along, and make room under the big tent for theological diversity. That message was more about harmony, than unity. Signing Kumbaya together won’t fix the mixture which is in the camp – God doesn’t bless mixture, especially when there is a strong disagreement about His plan of salvation.

Thanks Gram3, that’s a great summary.

http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2016/05/mark-dever-is-or-was-a-slobbering-five-point-calvinist.html

Interesting find

Gram3 wrote:

Reconstructionism is a perversion of standard Covenant Theology. Some consider it merely an extreme form of Covenant Theology, but I disagree. As Brad said, they wish to establish a theocratic state modeled on the OT theocracy. They take that as a pattern for how we should do government and church and family. This includes the idea of Patriarchy.

Which is precisely why I’m glad that the old dead white men who founded our nation were humanists, free-thinkers, and heretics. And who also took measures to make sure that these kinds of men can never accrete the kind of power they so desperately covet.

Lydia wrote:

My name is Lydia and I have been a useful idiot

🙂

Deb wrote:

Velour wrote:
And NeoCals like Al Mohler, Mark Dever, and the rest of ’em think they have have discovered ‘long lost Biblical truths’ that everybody else missed…for hundreds of years.
BULL! So grateful Almighty God is watching.

Me too, Deb!

Paula Rice wrote:

The list goes on! I knew he regarded himself as an Apostle, a Leader, a Pastor, a President, etc., but did you know he was also a Prophet!?

LOL it’s starting to remind me of the Idi Amin song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFeJJAQPiK4&t=0m47s

The problem with prophecy is it’s subjective. Which prophet is right, which one is wrong? He can just declare himself head prophet. The word of God, however, is clear, and he is in violation of it.

Stunned wrote:

BTW, I was in the Philly church at the time, and we were not seeing CJ there regularly AT ALL, so if he did come up to Philly and miss church with you guys, he sure as heck was not in our church service, either, despite what you were told.

What year did Bill Patton need to step down, do you recall?

In this tape dated 1/31/99, Robin Boisvert says some interesting things, prompted by the fact Bill Patton had spoken at CLC the previous Sunday (1/24/99), and shared that CJ had been very involved in his crisis. But who knew this? You’re saying you didn’t know the Mahaney’s didn’t make their presence known up there at the time, and no one in CLC knew, which Boisvert admits. Boisvert goes on to emphasis, more than once, the reason for the cover-up is because “it would not have been inappropriate.” Really? Why? It’s not everyone needed to know all the details, so why the secrecy?? It’s not like Bill Patton had committed a crime.

So, Bill Patton shares with CLC how involved CJ had been in his crisis. Then, next Sunday, we have Robin Boisvert sharing a long explanation about CJ, and how his recent absences are related, in a sense, sharing that CJ is “often<i/" needing to be involved in "situations, perhaps not exactly of that nature, but that require his close attention.” Then, strangely, within this, Boisvert feels the need to add qualifiers, and tell everyone that whatever CJ does is important, and that in his opinion he’s a great man.

But why would he feel the need to tell everyone that?

Know what I think? To stop anyone from asking any questions about what CJ has been up to, where he’s been going, and why he’s been gone. Boisvert also inserted that CJ had the “great privilege at being invited to speak at John Piper’s Pastor’s Conference. A Conference for Pastor’s! Now how many of those men, do you suppose, were expected to miss preaching at their church that day (Sunday Jan 31st) because they planned to attend Piper’s conference that week?! The conference wasn’t scheduled over the weekend, and Mahaney didn’t speak until Tuesday, Feb 2nd http://www.desiringgod.org/series/1999-conference-for-pastors/messages Mahaney’s topic for the conference: “Preaching Today: The (Almost) Forgotten Task.” Maybe Mahaney forgot to preach at CLC that Sunday, and needed Robin Boisvert to tell everyone he’s rather at CLC instead, but had to miss church and go out to Minnesota two days early to put the finishing touches on his sermon. Or maybe he was in Florida.

But what interests me about this is that Boisvert shares Mahaney had been involved in a lot of things behind the scenes that no one knew about, and he shares this at the beginning of 1999. What had been happening recently, in the previous year, in 1998, that required Mahaney’s close attention, that no one knew about either?

Here’s a couple ideas: Noel and Wallace & Happymom. These are just two incidences of child sexual abuse that surfaced in 1998.

ps. I’ll include more of Boisvert’s opening remarks in my next comment.

Gram3 wrote:

would add to BradFuturist that Rousas Rushdoony was the fount of Reconstructionism (the Reformed version of Dominionism) which led to Federal Vision which plagues many PCA churches to this day. Federal Vision is Doug Wilson’s theology, though it is taught by Peter Leithart who is still inexplicably tolerated by the PCA.

Dominionism was also promoted heavily in charismatic circles via TBN and other outlets. The connection between the charismatic form of Dominionism and the Reconstructionist version was Gary North who is Rushdoony’s son-in-law.

Excellent synopsis, Gram!

The charismatic river of Dominionism that came through the shepherding/discipleship movement was via Ern Baxter. He had worked with William Branham from whom Dominionism came through the Manifest Sons of God, The Latter Rain, and the End-Time Harvest Movements.

This particular branch also flows through Mike Bickle (IHOP), C. Peter Wagner (NAR, & ‘Convening Apostle of the International Coalition of Apostles’), Francis Frangipane (River of Life), Che Ahn (former PDI pastor for 19 years, and one the NAR’s apostles), Kenneth Hagin & Kenneth Copeland (health & wealth quacks), Rick Joyner, Paul Cain, Lou Engle, James Goll, Chuck Pierce (Kansas City ‘prophets’), Jack Dennison (CityReach), Paul Cedar (Mission America Coalition), Ed Silvoso (Transformations), Tom White (City-Wide Prayer Movement), George Otis (Sentinel Group), Loren Cunningham (YWAM), Os Hillman (Marketplace Leaders), John Dawson (Taking Our Cities for God), Rick Warren (PDL), Bill Bright (Campus Crusade).

That’s not an exhaustive list. The above folks are connected and interconnected together in mulitple ways.

Finally, one pivotal man who connects the charismatic stream of C. Peter Wagner & the reformed stream of John Piper is Ralph Winter (US Center for World Mission, Perspectives on the World Christian Movement). Winter’s teachings on the Abrahamic covenant (as being the only covenant) – that this (the Abrahamic Covenant) is the ‘secret mission’ of the church.

Quoting Winter:
“Neither Matthew 26:28 nor mark 14:24, in the scene of the Last Supper, speak of the “new covenant, They read, “this is my blood of the covenant” not, as does Luke 22:20, “the new covenant in my blood.”

“Apparently the word “new” is not the principal point of the passage but rather the fact that this act of outpoured blood finally ratifies and enables the same covenant in a new and ultimate sense. The sacrifice of the Cross is thus, at the very least, a definitive renewal of the Abrahamic Covenant, as we have already seen.”

So, there you have it. There is no new covenant. Just a ‘ratification’ and ‘enabling’ of the Abrahamic covenant…

.
Terms to search: City Transformations, Seven Mountains Mandate, Marketplace Movement, Prayer Marching, Taking Our Cities for God, Spiritual Mapping, Spiritual Warfare, Latter Rain, Manifest Sons of God, Coalition on Revival, Global Mapping Project, The Lausanne Covenant, The Lausanne Movement, Loving Our Cities to Christ,

Paula Rice wrote:

What had been happening recently, in the previous year, in 1998, that required Mahaney’s close attention, that no one knew about either?

Wasn’t this the same time things were going on with Tomczak and his family as well? Didn’t CJ blackmail Larry about this time?

Lydia wrote:

@ Gram3:
My name is Lydia and I have been a useful idiot
The first step.
:o)

LOL. Me too.

@ Paula Rice:

😀

@ BL:

Appreciate your additional insights about Patriarchy’s history and the mess that our churches our now in because of it.

siteseer wrote:

Ron Oommen wrote:
I’ve been battling to understand how it’s possible to keep on maintaining the cognitive dissonance necessary to keep drinking the 9 Marks type kool aid.I think I understand one part of it. Throw the adjective ” Biblical” around enough times and you buy into the consequent lie that any opposing view is “unbiblical”. In other words, “heresy”.
I share your battle to understand this.
I have found that a great many believers do not actually read the Bible, they delegate that responsibility to others, or they study it in a fragmented way (looking up a verse on this or that) and never get an understanding of how the whole narrative proceeds, from beginning to end. As a result, they are not able to discern error.
When false teachings came into our church, I found that only a few people noticed it. Some people I talked with about the strange statements popping up in the messages had not heard them (what were they thinking about during the messages?) but most responded with, “what I think he really meant was…” Every single person had their own idea of “what he really meant” and, in the end, they all were wrong.
But I found it is really common for people to give their own meaning to what’s being said, instead of recognizing the speaker has his own absolute meaning to what he is saying…

I’ve watched it before, people who have given up on rational thought and spiritual discernment (perhaps in some cases because they do not possess the Holy Spirit in the first place?), in the throes of idolatry of pastor or elder or bishop who seem to pay more attention to the rhythm of the leader’s voice, deriving great pleasure just from hearing their beloved guru speak, than from analyzing what is said. It is right because beloved leader said it, they’ll perform any number of tricks of rhetoric to make what the leader says fit within a Christian paradigm, and will become extremely hostile at the whistleblower who dares to make them confront the truth. The whistleblower becomes the problem because they’re the ones disturbing the leader-worshiper’s reverie. Any with a tendency towards Bereanism should consider such a place akin to Dante’s Inferno, might as well post “Abandon Hope All Who Enter” on the front door, because there is typically no way out without great psychic damage to the Berean and there is sometimes no hope of them effecting a change.

siteseer wrote:

Ron Oommen wrote:I think many believers are at an immature stage. Others are intellectually lazy. They have a tendency to put their trust in persons, to lead and guide them, rather than using their own reasoning abilities. They imbue these leaders with the qualities they want to see. If you point out errors, they are offended and threatened because the anchor of their faith is in that other person. They have not trained their own reasoning to be able to recognize truth and error, they are dependent upon this other person (Hebrews 5:14, “But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.”)

This is surely in large part why Jesus told us to call no one teacher, leader, father, etc. Also why John admonished a church of more mature believers that they are not in need of teachers, having the Holy Spirit to guide them. I have never heard a 9Marks or YRR church get anywhere near this verse, it’s as if it simply does not exist (and I’ve attended both and been an elder at a YRR).

Max wrote:

Perhaps the old guard was just waiting on the energy of youth to pull it off. When the new reformers secure the throne, Ascol and Mohler might tip a glass, but Ascol and his band of Founders will fade into obscurity.

At one time I could’ve told you the story there but it’s faded from memory. I think about ten or twelve years ago, Ascol distanced himself from what became YRR because he was more traditional. Mohler at the time was more in line with the old guard like Patterson. I think the fiasco with private prayer languages and Wade Burleson’s fighting with the foreign missions board put blood in the water and Mohler seized on the opportunity to take the reigns.

A lot of the younger Calvinist guys were primarily motivated by hatred for Fundamentalism rather than Calvinism. Mohler reached out to them and forged an alliance that put him on the throne of the SBC beginning in 2008.

@Gram3 and BL,

And where does Bruce Ware fit in the picture of Patriarchy?

R2 wrote:

Ascol distanced himself from what became YRR because he was more traditional.

Ascol is definitely in the old-line Reformed Baptist 1689er ARBCA mold. I would not be surprised if Ascol’s church has a dual alignment with ARBCA and SBC. Do not get on the wrong side of somebody from ARBCA, and I say that as someone who has found myself on the wrong side of an ARBCA-ite. They are seriously rigid about the “Doctrines of Grace” and make the OPC look positively liberal.

Gram3 wrote:

Velour wrote:
And where does Bruce Ware fit in the picture of Patriarchy?
Bruce Ware and Wayne Grudem were at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Which, not coincidentally is where Owen received his Ph.D. Ware was also at Fuller Seminary where he might have crossed paths with Peter Wagner, too. Now, of course, he is at Southern.

Thanks Gram3.

Owen Strachan, the young pup who heads Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood, is Bruce Ware’s son-in-law.

siteseer wrote:

The problem with prophecy is it’s subjective. Which prophet is right, which one is wrong? He can just declare himself head prophet.

I think scripture is rather clear that if the prophecy comes true, then the prophet was right and if it doesn’t, it’s not. 🙂 I like clear things like that.

Velour wrote:

And where does Bruce Ware fit in the picture of Patriarchy?

I ran across this interesting quote from Bruce Ware:

“One reason that men abuse their wives is because women rebel against their husband’s God-given authority, a Southern Baptist scholar said Sunday in a Texas church.

Bruce Ware, professor of Christian theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said women desire to have their own way instead of submitting to their husbands because of sin.

“And husbands on their parts, because they’re sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged–or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches,” Ware said from the pulpit of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas.

So, according to Ware, it appears that men have 2 choices when dealing with those evil cursed want-their-own-way wimmens – by abuse, or milquetoast acquiescence.

He goes on further to explain even more how “it’s all that woman’s fault…”

“Commenting on selected passages from the first three chapters of Genesis, Ware said Eve’s curse in the Garden of Eden meant “her desire will be to have her way” instead of her obeying her husband, “because she’s a sinner.”

What that means to the man, Ware said, is: “He will have to rule, and because he’s a sinner, this can happen in one of two ways. It can happen either through ruling that is abusive and oppressive–and of course we all know the horrors of that and the ugliness of that–but here’s the other way in which he can respond when his authority is threatened. He can acquiesce. He can become passive. He can give up any responsibility that he thought he had to the leader in the relationship and just say ‘OK dear,’ ‘Whatever you say dear,’ ‘Fine dear’ and become a passive husband, because of sin.””

Complete article at:

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/southern-baptist-scholar-links-spouse-abuse-to-wives-refusal-to-submit-to-their-husbands-cms-12832

Oh, and there’s one more from Ware:

“Ware cited gender roles as one example of churches compromising and reforming doctrines to accommodate to culture.

“It really has been happening for about the past 30 years, ever since the force of the feminist movement was felt in our churches,” Ware said.”

Googling around on ‘bibical manhood’ I ran across the following info on Google books:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Vjwly0QyeU4C&pg=PA240&dq=evangelical+encyclopedia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjd0ZORjvTMAhVGOD4KHYidCooQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=muscular%20christianity&f=false
MOD: URL Shortening not allowed here. I changed it to the full URL but please don’t do this in comments.

Evidently “muscular Christianity” was referenced back in 1857. It appears that evangelistic attempts have focused on getting more men in church long before Ware’s arch-enemy Feminism came ’round “for about the past 30 years, ever since the force of the feminist movement was felt in our churches”.

More women than men have been attending church for at least the last 200 years.

Maybe Ware and his complimentarian cohorts can explain how feminism caused that back in 1800?

I’m sure that somehow it will be the fault of women.

Lydia wrote:

My name is Lydia and I have been a useful idiot

Lydia, thank you for your honesty ;^)

If millions of Southern Baptists ever come to their senses about surrendering the largest non-Calvinist Protestant denomination in America to the New Calvinists, they could insert each of their names in place of yours on that line.

Velour wrote:

A good article from Tim Fall’s blog about this Patriarchy nonsense/husbands-fathers the “pastors” of their families & that it’s not Scriptural.
https://timfall.wordpress.com/2015/11/18/if-dads-are-the-pastors-what-does-that-make-moms/

Good for Tim! It amazes me how full of nonsense these neo-cals are.

TMax wrote:

That was spiritual discernment kicking in! It was the Holy Spirit saying “No!” in your soul to protect your spiritual health. If you consider the big dogs in the New Calvinist movement, they all have a creepy slimy aura about them. All I can say about the great multitude who are falling for the likes of Mahaney, Mohler, Dever, Duncan, Piper et. al. is that they have zero – absolutely zero – discernment.

Max wrote:

The Low Sparrow wrote:
We had many visiting speakers and the one that really creeped me out was CJ Mahaney
That was spiritual discernment kicking in! It was the Holy Spirit saying “No!” in your soul to protect your spiritual health. If you consider the big dogs in the New Calvinist movement, they all have a creepy slimy aura about them. All I can say about the great multitude who are falling for the likes of Mahaney, Mohler, Dever, Duncan, Piper et. al. is that they have zero – absolutely zero – discernment.

Thank you Max for your encouragement. It has taken me until last year to truly trust that the Holy Spirit DOES speak to each of us. For many years I always thought well the Pastor must be right he knows God more than I do, even though something inside seemed to be screaming Nooooo!!!
I was going to a church here in New Zealand which I loved, until late last year. I had never even heard of Neo- Calvinism and because of dreadful experiences in YWAM/ Vineyard church avoided charismatic independent churches like the plague and stuck with the Anglican Church until we moved to NZ.
I really thought my new church here was free of shepherding until one sermon that hugely triggering word “DISCIPLESHIP” came up in a sermon ( about discipling) and ran for the hills! And we have a LOT of hills here to choose from!
So I dug deeper, starting reading TWW again and was horrified to see shepherding back in full throttle via TGC and that my church was heavily into NC. The penny dropped. Especially when CJs book the Cross Centred Life was on their recommended booklist
What is so sad is that the TGC has a strong presence over here even in the Anglican Church as well and I haven’t been to church since until I find a TGC- free zone.

Hi Low Sparrow,

Good name. How tenderly he cares for us, even us lowly sparrows.

Only if you feel comfortable answering this: north or south island? I love NZ!

The Low Sparrow wrote:

I really thought my new church here was free of shepherding until one sermon that hugely triggering word “DISCIPLESHIP” came up in a sermon ( about discipling) and ran for the hills! And we have a LOT of hills here to choose from!

Yes, it’s made it quite hard for any of us to find decent, non-authoritarian, non-Patriarchy churches with a simple Gospel message delivered by humble servants.

There’s Wade Burleson’s sermons here on Sundays that Deb posts for E-Church.

Also, Dee’s former church when she and her family lived in Texas, Bent Tree Bible Fellowship.
Dee’s former pastor is Pete Briscoe her encouraged her to teach at the church.
They have sermons online: http://benttree.org/sermon/part-18-seventy-sevens/

Also Dee has spoken highly of Bent Tree Pastor Joanne Hummel. I need to find her sermons.

Best wishes.

GSD wrote:

Thanks Gram3, that’s a great summary.

And beautifully written, too. Gram needs to write a book!

@ Patriciamc:
Bruce Ware believes that men directly reflect the image of God; women reflect it “derivatively.” At least he’s honest.

Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

an analogy between ticks and neo-Cal infiltrators.

You are onto something.
I pulled a tick off my ear last week. Thankfully it wasn’t burrowing in yet.
I love working in the great outdoors, God’s creation. But you’ve gotta watch those ticks.

Neo-cals trying to burrow into people’s ears. Neo-cals waiting in God’s creation to jump onto unsuspecting worshipers. Yep, analogy worthy stuff right there.
You are definitely onto something.

Patty in Massachusetts wrote:

@ Patriciamc:
Bruce Ware believes that men directly reflect the image of God; women reflect it “derivatively.” At least he’s honest.

Yes. And it is about the worst teaching possible. As if Genesis 1 does not exist in his literal interpretation of creation. Or that Genesis 2 is the micro hierarchical caste explanation of Genesis 1. You cannot even make a case for hierarchy in creation without reading into their literal interpretation of creation.

This man calls himself a scholar but he is actually a propagandists of the worst sort. One who lies about God for a personal agenda.

Gram3 wrote:

I am pretty sure it would not be sufficient to make it safe for John Piper’s delicate sensibilities, sadly.

Piper would be ok reading it up and until he actually learned something, and then he would throw it away in terror.

The Low Sparrow wrote:

I truly thought shepherding had died a death until I encountered it again last year in my reformed church. Guess it grew another head.

It appeared that the shepherding/discipleship movement had been decapitated back in the 80s.

While the obvious s/d head that was sticking up did get cut off in the 80s, it is clear that the shepherding/discipleship movement was like the mythical Hydra.

But instead of having just 2 heads appear when the one shepherding/discipleship head was cut off, dozens of smaller, less conspicuous s/d heads just quietly appeared in multiple ministries/movements/churches.

Where they put down roots, spread their seeds like dandelions, and have continued producing toxic fruit that destroy wherever they grow.

Mixed my metaphors there.

Shepherding/Discipleship has been the Kudzu of churchianity.

Rapid growth, big tubers that keep it going when times are lean, will run underground for yards and erupt in your flowerbed, destroys everything in its path, and takes a mulitple-pronged time-intensive effort to eliminate it.

Just like unchecked Kudzu has taken over the south by covering everything in its vicinity, the shepherding/discipleship errors overlay a large portion of churchianity today.

For a quick overview of the effects of Kudzu:

https://www.google.com/search?q=kudzu+covering+the+south&biw=1275&bih=922&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-7MqiwvXMAhUBeD4KHXQLAPsQ_AUIBigB&dpr=0.9#imgrc=_

.

Muff Potter wrote:

Which is precisely why I’m glad that the old dead white men who founded our nation were humanists, free-thinkers, and heretics. And who also took measures to make sure that these kinds of men can never accrete the kind of power they so desperately covet.

The also had a healthy distrust of each other.

siteseer wrote:

Paula Rice wrote:
The list goes on! I knew he regarded himself as an Apostle, a Leader, a Pastor, a President, etc., but did you know he was also a Prophet!?
LOL it’s starting to remind me of the Idi Amin song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFeJJAQPiK4&t=0m47s

Someone else who knows classic Dr Demento!

siteseer wrote:

Max, I suspect that you have summed up right here why all of these individuals and groups keep gravitating towards the authoritarian control, and legalism they do. They do not understand grace, it’s foreign to them.

Like Lord Voldemort and Comrade O’Brian of the Inner Party, they only understand POWER.

“There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER. And those who are too weak to have it.”
— Lord Voldemort

“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering upon the Powerless. The future, 6079 Smith W? A boot stamping on a man’s face. FOREVER.”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984

If you read the web pages that have exposed the inner workings of CJ, you sure get the feeling that power over others what what behind SGM and good old CJ…. But of course, according Al Mohler, we should just laugh at what we read on Internet and just follow them blindly..

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

siteseer wrote:
Max, I suspect that you have summed up right here why all of these individuals and groups keep gravitating towards the authoritarian control, and legalism they do. They do not understand grace, it’s foreign to them.
Like Lord Voldemort and Comrade O’Brian of the Inner Party, they only understand POWER.
“There is no Right, there is no Wrong, there is only POWER. And those who are too weak to have it.”
— Lord Voldemort
“The only goal of Power is POWER. And POWER consists of inflicting maximum suffering upon the Powerless. The future, 6079 Smith W? A boot stamping on a man’s face. FOREVER.”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984

Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

But of course, according Al Mohler, we should just laugh at what we read on Internet and just follow them blindly..

BB is doubledoubleplusgood.

siteseer wrote:

They do not understand grace, it’s foreign to them.

You’ve hit on a key paradox of New Calvinism. They talk a lot about grace, grace, grace … they name their churches and their children after grace … they write books and deliver sermons about grace … grace, as they understand it, is a hill to die on … but they don’t really grasp Grace. When the NC bubble breaks, a great multitude of the confused and disillusioned will exit their ranks – they will be a great mission field ripe for the harvest to take Grace to.

The Low Sparrow wrote:

Hi, newbie poster here but have been reading TWW for a few years. I found the site after googling CJ. Mahaney.

And I sense another Game of Thrones aficionado in your handle.

In 1981 CJ Mahaney came to speak at our YWAM “church”. I think maybe Larry Tomczak had travelled with him to be there as well.

He was treated like royalty by the leaders. All I remember about his speaking was that he was extremely articulate, humorous and emotionally charged, and he said no one should have as much fun in the bedroom as the Christian. It felt quite creepy, especially as most of us were in our twenties and single. I was 24 at the time.

I believe you got a glimpse into the Wannabe High Sparrow/High Septon’s sexual fantasies. (Did he chuckle chuckle as he did so?)

I thought it might help to add my own little bit of history. My experience with heavy shepherding still traumatises me now as I write this I am physically shaking. 35 years later.

You have had experience with the High Sparrows’ Enforcers. The guy who turned me on to GoT called the High Sparrow’s enforcers “CALVINIST Thugs”.

BL wrote:

So, according to Ware, it appears that men have 2 choices when dealing with those evil cursed want-their-own-way wimmens – by abuse, or milquetoast acquiescence.

As the Masters of the city-states around Slaver’s Bay would put it:
“Hold the Whip or Feel the Whip. Nothing in between.”

That’s characteristic of viewing everything through a filter of Power Struggle.

Muff Potter wrote:

They knew human nature

I feel like much of these church leader types that promote church discipline, husband in charge/pastor in charge/etc, believe that human nature does not exist. They discount it entirely, when the problems that will arise with these systems are so clear if you just know people.

Catholic Gate-Crasher wrote:

GSD wrote:
Thanks Gram3, that’s a great summary.
And beautifully written, too. Gram needs to write a book!

I copied Gram3’s & BL’s excellent posts about the history of Patriarchy in US churches, and one of Brad/FuturistGuy’s posts on the same subject, at the top of the page here under the Interesting tab, Books/Movies/etc. tab, for peoples’ future reference.

Patriciamc wrote:

The theological term for his belief is BS.

That will preach!

@ Velour:
Cheap grace.

Max wrote:

Now you know why so many New Calvinists are messed up about the “beauty of complementarity” with teaching like that! There’s nothing beautiful or Biblical about that position!

But (male) New Calvinists like it because it means “I HOLD THE WHIP!”

Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

these types like to create the own “world” so they can minimize contrary thoughts/ideas

He who makes the rules, controls the game. There are games and there are games … but games which mess with the soul are dangerous adventures. The longer you live in a world of your own making, you lose sight of true North. New Calvinism is out of touch with the mind of God. The contrary input they seek to minimize may very well be the lifeline they need for their rescue.

R2 wrote:

A lot of the younger Calvinist guys were primarily motivated by hatred for Fundamentalism rather than Calvinism. Mohler reached out to them and forged an alliance that put him on the throne of the SBC beginning in 2008.

What problem do they have with fundamentalism? Except for secondary separation I always thought most evangelicals hold to the fundamentals of the faith? I don’t like the fundamentalist label, but there are some who classify me as a fundamentalist. The label
I don’t like because I equate it with mean spirited, judgmental, intolerant, unloving, and legalistic. Traits I am beginning to associate more with Neocals than with traditional fundamentalists.

patriciamc wrote:

I have to wonder why Ware wants women to be an indirect image. Very few people come to the same conclusion he did when they read the Bible, so he had to have gone into it with his conclusion formed already. So, why? Issues, he’s got issues.

Bruce Ware is behind the Eternal [a lie] Subordination of the Son heresy to justify Patriarchy/Comp. https://adaughterofthereformation.wordpress.com/tag/bruce-ware/