Justin Taylor of The Gospel™ Coalition Says Watchbloggers Never Apologize. He Should Know. Part 1

“Blogging is to writing what extreme sports are to athletics: more free-form, more accident-prone, less formal, more alive. It is, in many ways, writing out loud.” 

For most of human history, all published writing had been carefully inspected, edited, and approved. In the last decade, blogging has turned the publishing world on its head. A blog allows you to write and publish anything, from anywhere, and have it be immediately available to billions of people all around the world. This means that blogging is uniquely “alive”, as Andrew Sullivan points out in The Atlantic. I, for one, am happy to embrace the chaos and vitality. link.

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=61538&picture=terrified-man
Terrified Man who blocks people.

There are so many permutations of back scratching groups within the Calvinista circles today that it is hard to tell the difference between any of them. In fact, I think the members of these groups are so used to treatises and mandates on what to do and what to believe that they think the rest of the world functions in the same way.

TWW wants to clue everyone in on the links between bloggers in our circle of friends. There are no official groups, no joint fundraising and many of us believe different things on secondary doctrines. In fact, I would imagine if we all got together to write up exactly what we believed on issues like gender roles, predestination, eschatology, etc. we would not be able to come to any sort of consensus. And I, for one love it that way. We love and care for one another anyway.

However, we have a few of issues that we feel quite strongly about. These would include child sex abuse, church discipline abuse, and domestic violence. In fact, you might say that we are all quite passionate about theses subjects. I have only met Eagle and Todd Wilhelm face to face. I have yet to meet Julie Anne Smith, Amy Smith, Janet Mefferd, Nate Sparks, Tom Rich and many many others. 

Here is an example of how we work.Remember the  Karen Hinkley story from The Village Churc?. Amy Smith called me while I was on vacation. She said that this story would cover both the issues of membership contracts and pedophilia. She prefers to focus on sex abuse since she is the Dallas representative of SNAP. However, she knows of my interest in and expertise (9 Marks now trembles) on membership contracts. She asked if we might be able to work together, each of us pursuing our strengths. Neither of us told the other what to say or do because we trust one another. 

Justin Taylor and CJ Mahaney: Taylor is CJ's friend, dadgummit.
Recently, there was a dustup on Twitter between Justin Taylor and others. Let's look at some history first. Then, ask yourself the question: What do you think Justin Taylor miffed off about at this time.

1. Justin Taylor, along with Kevin DeYoung and D A Carson wrote a letter calling CJ Mahaney a "friend" after he was accused of covering up child sex abuse.

We are not ashamed to call C. J. a friend. Our relationship with C. J. is like that with any good friend—full of laughter and sober reflection, encouragement and mutual correction. He has regularly invited—even pursued—correction, and we have given him our perspective when it is warranted. While the admission of friendship may render this entire statement tainted in the eyes of some, we hope most Christians will understand that while friends should never cover for each others' sins, neither do friends quickly accept the accusations of others when they run counter to everything they have come to see and know about their friend. We are grateful for C. J.'s friendship and his fruitful ministry of the gospel over many decades.

2.. Justin Taylor was upset that Boz Tchividjian said that there is a terrible problem of child sex abuse in the evangelical church. The word slander was used.

Slander is probably the most misused word by the gospel boys. It usually means that they have been called on the carpet about something to do with abuse or lying.

Tchividjian said that child sex abuse is even worse in the evangelical population than it is within the Roman Catholic church. He then decided that this was slandering the church and he seemed rather upset that Janet Mefferd and others repeated that quote. You see, Justin Taylor and many of his BFFs love CJ Mahaney in spite of the numerous allegations of the cover up of child sex abuse in SGM which has garnered the attention of the media, including most recently The Washingtonian. But it is lies, all lies! CJ is a great guy and we love him enough to publish his books and artend conferences with him. 

Here is a portion of our post about that: Breaking: Is Janet Mefferd Being Intimidated by the “Gospel” Mafia to Shut Up About SGM? (Oct 8, 2013)

Begin Excerpt:

Last week Joe Carter, at The Gospel Coalition, wrote an article, Stop Slandering Christ's Bride. He claims the following steps are slander.  Why? Because we cannot know what each and every church is talking about?? This huge post is about a bit of hyperbole? "Everyone is talking about the weather" come to mind. 

Step 1: Take an issue of concern for Christians (e.g., abortion, sex trafficking, global persecution, the gospel).

Step 2: Claim that no one in our churches is talking about the issue.

Step 3: Assume the dual role of educator and Old Testament prophet by explaining why the issue matters and why the church must stand up and speak out about it.

Janet Mefferd appears to agree and responds to Carter's post . 

You can read  "When speaking the truth in love is not slander" here

Again, it is unclear whom Carter is particularly addressing in his admonition to “Stop Slandering Christ’s Bride.” I am not saying his intended target is Boz Tchividjian or anyone else who has decried the silence on evangelical sexual abuse, since his article is virtually detail-free. But regardless of the issue, Carter’s article is an unwarranted scolding that could discourage discerning, faithful Christians from speaking biblical truth on any widespread issue of neglect — sexual abuse or otherwise — simply because they lack Carter’s stated requirement of “omniscience” and the title of “a prophet or a son of a prophet.”

Peter Lumpkins picks up on Mefferd's post in Janet Mefferd on Joe Carter's 'stop slandering Christ's bride' corrective–'an unwarranted scolding discouraging Christians from speaking on issues of neglect'

This is where it gets ugly and this is when I start getting mad. Carter makes the boneheaded decision to comment at Lumpkin's blog post.  Here is an illuminating selection of Carter's "gospel" admonishments. Please read the entire context of his comments on Lumpkin's blog.

  • Mefferd's grasp of history is not much better than her understanding of logical fallacies.
  • Mefferd has merely shown that she doesn't understand much about logic.
  • She's merely using my article as a whipping boy so that she can defend the reckless and counterproductive assertions made by Boz Tchividjian.

The Carter Tweet

He sent out a ridiculous tweet that is easily misunderstood to mean that Mefferd is justifying "bearing false witness."

So @Janet Mefferd thinks bearing false witness is okay because people understand hyperbole? Not a very biblical position.

He comments at Lumpkins post: 

No, I did not claim on Twitter that Mefferd was "bearing false witness" for daring to respond. The way you toss off such falsehoods, Lydia, is shameful and unbecoming of a Christian.

Sorry, Joe, that's what it sounded like to me so I guess I am shameful and unbecoming as well. 

Carter goes after Boz Tchividjian as well, calling him reckless.

He continues his "gospel" admonishment with this comment:

In her article she defends Boz Tchividjian's reckless claim that evangelicals are actually worse than Catholics when it comes to staying silent about sexual abuse in our churches. What evidence does she present to defend such a claim? None. Does she explain how such a claim could even be substantiated? No, she doesn't. Instead, she merely claims that evangelicals are covering up sexual abuse in a way that equals the thousands of cases that were reported in the Roman Catholic Church.

What I think this thing is really about? TGC and the SGM sex abuse lawsuit.

Stop the presses! It does seem that Joe is very concerned about the perception of the evangelical response to child sex abuse. Oh yeah, that's right. He is a blogger for The Gospel Coalition which maintained "gospel golden silence" about the SGM sex abuse lawsuit for 178 days. Look on the sidebar of our blog. We were keeping track of this situation.

Janet Mefferd responds to Carter's comments and drops the proverbial bombshell.

In Why speaking the truth in love isn’t ‘slandering Christ’s Bride’ (Part 2)  she says the following. Pay close attention to the highlighted section!!

Though Carter denies that the “issue” he had in mind was “the silence over rampant sexual abuse in evangelical churches,” there’s a message he’s sending that comes through loud and clear: “Shut up, Christian.” Don’t you non-omniscient, non-prophets dare tell the rest of the church what it should talk about. Don’t accuse anyone else of not speaking or deliberately being silent when he should speak up. Don’t exhort; it’s not your place. (I do also wonder how many readers stopped to consider whether or not Carter even has the standing or biblical authority to lecture us in this way! He has no authority over any of us.)

But why is this significant? As I previously mentioned, The Gospel Coalition kept silent for many months about the Sovereign Grace Ministries sexual abuse lawsuit, in which 11 plaintiffs claim to have suffered heartbreaking sexual abuse and also allege conspiracy and cover-up. TGC has an association and stated friendship with lawsuit defendant C.J. Mahaney, and that means — even if Carter didn’t intend it — when he says, “don’t slander Christ’s bride,” a whole lot of people, rightly or wrongly, are reading that statement through the Sovereign Grace Ministries lawsuit lens. And they’re remembering The Gospel Coalition’s silence.

I won’t share the details, but there also has been an effort within this general camp of individuals to try to intimidate me into not talking about this case on my radio show. It will not work. I will wait for the outcome, just like everyone else, and I will not rush to judgment where the individual defendants are concerned. But I will cover this case as new developments arise. And I must state that, based on all I’ve taken in on this case so far, I am not at all convinced that those 11 plaintiffs are liars with nefarious motives.

Wherever there are true victims of sexual abuse anywhere in the church, I will stand with the victims. Whenever there is sexual abuse in the church, anywhere, we all must grieve and get angry. What evil. What a blight on the gospel. What a blight on the name of Jesus Christ!

We must love the little lambs and protect them. Jesus said, “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” (Matthew 18:5-7) In John 21, Jesus told Peter that if he loved Him, he would “Take care of my sheep.”

And the last thing we need — in the current context, at this time of rampant sexual abuse in evangelicalism and the relative silence about it in our churches — is someone at The Gospel Coalition trying to tell us not to rebuke the church for its apathy on any issue.

End Excerpt


Justin Taylor and Janet Mefferd: Taylor calls for a boycott of Mefferd's show.

Janet Mefferd should be credited with being the first person to expose Mark Driscoll's plagiarism during an interview with Driscoll on her show. TWe wrote the following post  to document the history of Taylor's support of another discredited Calvinista leader, Mark Driscoll. You see, Janet committed the unpardonable sin of calling Driscoll to account for his published words and Taylor was fuming mad.

Begin Excerpt

Justin Taylor of Between Two Worlds  and a Gospel Coalition blogger calls for a boycott of Mefferd's show. Why?

It is against all rules to expose the shortcomings of certain Calvinista boys as we have sadly learned from the SGM saga. 

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Note the non-specificity of this tweet. I am suspicious. Is he sending a warning to plagiarizing pastors and church leaders to stay away from Mefferd because she will call them on it?  What does Taylor know that we don't know? Taylor has not said anything else which means he is sticking with his warning. So, what's he afraid of?


Justin Taylor and Crossway Publishers

Could Justin Taylor have been influenced by his position at Crossway?  From TWW Begin Excerpt from Mark Driscoll and D.A. Carson Believe Plagiarizing Pastors Should Resign. Uh Oh!

Begin Excerpt

B. Why did Justin Taylor call for an author's boycott of Janet Mefferd's show? Could it be business related?

Since Taylor has not walked this comment back, we have to assume he is standing by it. Could it have something to do with his position at Crossway? Link

As of August 15,(ed. 2013)  Crossway is pleased to announce the appointment of Justin Taylor to the position of Senior Vice President and Publisher for Books, held previously by Allan Fisher. Justin came to Crossway in 2006, serving most recently as Vice President for Book Publishing.

“It is my delight,” Lane Dennis said, “to welcome Justin in his new role as Crossway’s Publisher for Books. Justin has already made a tremendous contribution to our publishing program 

Here is a link to books written by Mark Driscoll which were published by Crossway. It is always a messy business when you confuse business advice as theological advice. Taylor would be wise to excuse himself on opinions that have to do with any authors who publish under his company's label. At the very minimum, ethics might suggest that he should admit to the financial ties between the authors and his company. This same situation appears to have happened before.

C. Justin Taylor apparently also supported CJ Mahaney this year. Could it be business related again?

Justin Taylor, along with Kevin DeYoung and Don Carson, supported CJ Mahaney during the awful child sex abuse scandal via this statement posted on May 24, 2013

It appears that they received some pushback even, most likely within The Gospel Coalition, forcing them to add the following statement

This statement reflects the views of the signatories and does not necessarily speak for other Council members, bloggers, and writers for The Gospel Coalition.

Justin Taylor was promoted to his current position at Crossway three months after this *courageous* stand on behalf of a man who presided over one of the messiest church situations of the century. Here is a link to CJ Mahaney books published by Crossway. Once again, a simple statement by Taylor regarding his business ties would have been welcome.

End Excerpt


Let's get back to the present.

Justin Taylor and Nate Sparks

Nate has given us permission to post his Injustice: Open Letter to The Gospel Coalition. To prevent confusion, I will put his well written article in a separate post this evening. Bless Nate Spark's heart. He had the temerity to question The Gospel Coalition. And Justin Taylor has close ties to TGC since his blog is  part of TGC. Interestingly, Crossway is pushed by The Gospel Coalition. Crossway publishes a fair amount of TGC authors. Is this all a coincidence?

Justin Taylor is executive vice president of book publishing and book publisher for Crossway and blogs at Between Two Worlds. 

In other words, the wrath of TGC is about to fall upon Nate and it does in the form of Justin Taylor on Twitter. Now, it is important to realize that I have been after Justin Taylor to apologize for his tweet about authors boycotting Janet Mefferd's show. That has resulted me in being blocked from receiving his tweets. (However, due to my super secret email, I still get them.heart)

Here is what Taylor tweeted. 

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  • Taylor is correct. He, who also has a watch blog in which he went after those who called Mahaney and Driscoll to account, has NEVER apologized to Janet Mefferd. Take a look at the people who answered Taylor at this link. 
  • Taylor denies that he was discussing the plagiarism and, instead, was upset that Mefferd said Driscoll hung up on her. 
  • Taylor claims Mefferd apologized for saying Driscoll hung up on her. She did not. She apologized for her tone.
  • Taylor claims he believes Driscoll's version of events. Imagine that! Look what happened to Driscoll after Mefferd called him out on his plagiarism. Who do you think is more trustworthy: Driscoll or Mefferd. Would Taylor answer Driscoll? Good night!
  • Taylor claimed that Meffrered contacted the blogs to write about this. She. did. not. We contacted her after the program. The adorable bloggers at TWW  are perfectly capable of listening to Mefferd's show (which we did) and drawing our own conclusions. We do not have any sort of coalitions telling us who to listen and what to write about. In fact, if anyone told us what to write about, we would let all of our readers know who felt they could tell us what to do. We also do not get any money from anyone that we write about unlike those in TGC who benefit financially from business deals 
  • Taylor reminds me of Doug Wilson who says one thing and then denies that is what he meant but I will get to that in my next post.
  • Taylor accuses those of us who believe his tweet was about Driscoll's plagiarism as *revising history.* Looks like he understand how to do that as well.

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Andrew knows how to read English and makes a great point about Taylor's protestation that he was merely talking about Mefferd's claim that Driscoll hung up. Frankly, I think Mefferd is far more believable than Driscoll but she is a woman and they are not allowed to question gospel™ leaders.

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Others see the Crossway $$$$ connection.

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To Nate Sparks: Don't worry if you get blocked by The Gospel™ Coalition or Justin Taylor. They have invented a new good old boy network and it involves money, celebrity, and their own version of watchblogging. 

Comments

Justin Taylor of The Gospel™ Coalition Says Watchbloggers Never Apologize. He Should Know. Part 1 — 79 Comments

  1. Integrity. Becoming of a Christian. Freedom. Christ set us free.
    For the sake of Joe Carter, my name is Melody Kay Young. I am very grateful for his calling me a coward for not using my name once, because it has been a privilege to stand with SGM victims while treated with disdain and rebuke from a coalition whose leading members have forgotten how we must come. Matthew 18:1-10.

  2. As always, Dee, you are thorough, accurate, and unafraid to tell the TRUTH, even if the perverts and perpetrators and their allies, try to invoke the wrath of God against you. They should be fearing that wrath themselves!!!

  3. Joe Carter’s poorly veiled blast against Janet Mefferd and Boz Tchividjian occurred over a year before I started reading here. So now after just reading the comments on Peter Lumpkins’ post I had to go and see if Joe Carter still had his job, yup he is still at TGC.

    Back in the days when newspapers reigned there was an adage that “you don’t pick a fight with people who by ink by the barrel”. That a “communications director” would pick a fight with Mefferd, who has a wide audience, indicates a “communications director” with little understanding of their job. That Joe would then followup on Lumpkin’s site defending himself with lame ad hominem attacks while decrying slander and hyperbole is simply dumb.

    This may all have been said two years ago and it may have been a bad week for Joe but I’m actually mystified, he wasn’t even a good propagandist. Is this yet another indicator that authoritarian regimes sow the seeds of their own end? They attract loyalty and reward subservience while negating excellence, in the end they can’t even do a good job of being crappy.

  4. Pingback: An Open Letter to Justin Taylor | Wondering Eagle

  5. On the more recent note I am again struck by the lack of quality or thoughtfulness by Justin Taylor’s tweet. Granted that is part of the Tweeting. I don’t slap bumper stickers on my car because I haven’t seen much useful that can be said on a bumper sticker, I sometimes think tweets are the bumper stickers of the internet. Can I get a bumper sticker that says “Anything said on a bumper sticker is dumb”?

    Dee you make good points that Taylor shouldn’t be throwing stones from his glass house of his own non-apologies. I was interested if he could site a case where TWW or lesser site (hehe) made a hasty judgement based on “not having all the facts” and didn’t apologize. But then if he was aware of such an occurrence he would have to follow the approved gospel™ process and contact you privately first, then take three witnesses, etc. Silly me, I should know that is not for the modern day Pharisees, only pewpeons need to follow twisted scripture.

    That begs another question, did Joe Carter reproach Janet Mefferd privately first?

  6. Joe Carter needs a dictionary. Either he doesn’t know the defn of the word slander, or he himself is committing slander. Wreckless ….. isn’t it a bit wreckless not only to protect, but to praise a pastor whose church is facing rampant abuse allegations in court while this pastor is pretending to “lead the sheep” and playing a “dumb sheep”, all at the same time???
    Reporting fact is slander?
    Protecting abusers is good?
    Blaming victims is good?
    God ole boys network ……. protect the perps, it’s the victims who are evil.
    If these guys weren’t YRR, Paige Patterson would be marching in lock-step with them.
    All of these people BBQ their “sheep” and call out for more to come into their herd for “protection”!

  7. Nancy2 wrote:

    Joe Carter needs a dictionary.

    Apparently the job of Communications Director requires the ability to direct communications but not the ability to communicate.

  8. Joe Carter is the gospelly boys “attack dog” of choice. He wrote a book entitled “How to Argue Like Jesus: Learning Persuasion from History’s Greatest Communicator.”

    Unfortunately for him he continually demonstrates that just because he wrote a book doesn’t mean he has mastered the subject.

  9. Good grief, the levels of childishness that Taylor and Carter sink to when other people say things they don’t like. It’s unbelievable. Compare that to the professional, Man O’ Gawd tone they keep when writing a regular article – something that ISN’T in response to critics – and it’s as if a veil drops.

  10. @ Anne:
    There is an underlying anger that is palpable. I get anger about abuse which is what motivates me. Their anger seems to be directed at those who would critique their thinking.

  11. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Joe Carter is the gospelly boys “attack dog” of choice. He wrote a book entitled “How to Argue Like Jesus: Learning Persuasion from History’s Greatest Communicator.”

    He was the one who threatened me on twitter with lawsuits when I was trying so hard to be nice to him. He learned from one of his BFFs-CJMahaney who wrote a book on humility. Mahaney is not humble and Carter doesn’t argue like Jesus. Sio what in the world are the writing about?

  12. Darlene wrote:

    wishes GURL bloggers would shut up and go away!

    They do. Remember most of them believe they are Christian leaders and women have no place in critiquing them.

  13. Excellent post. I agree how the TGC smears people by miss using the word slander… Just one little example… It is not slander to say that Mark Driscoll heavily plagiarized.. It is fact since his name are on the books, and it has been shown that significant text has been lifted from other previous published books, and Driscoll did not cite them.. This is fact. Those of us in the “secular world” know how SERIOUS this is and we would be fired for the level to which Driscoll did it.. period… Attacking Janet Mefferd for exposing this shows how DEPRAVED these people are… My reading of the Bible shows time and again how “religious” leaders are called to task for misbehavior.. The TGC “leaders” truly live in an “alternative” universe that defines “sins” different than the rest of us… And, despite what I have seen some defenders say, plagiarism at this scale is VERY SERIOUS stuff… especially when it has been done multiple times over many years, and a large amount of $$$ are at stake..

  14. Bill M wrote:

    I was interested if he could site a case where TWW or lesser site (hehe) made a hasty judgement based on “not having all the facts” and didn’t apologize

    We would be happy to apologize for the facts that we didn’t get straight. We spend lots of time looking at stories, etc. before we post them. If we made a mistake, let us know.

    The problem is-our posts document what is said and then we comment on it. Take the Naghmeh situation. We documented what she said and then took a stand on it. People may not like our opinion but it hard to get us on making things up.

  15. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    plagiarism at this scale is VERY SERIOUS stuff… especially when it has been done multiple times over many years, and a large amount of $$$ are at stake..

    What this says to me is that Crossway cannot be trusted with their vetting process.

  16. @ dee:
    It’s true. Just gives the game away that they’re not really into the whole Gospel™ Leadership stuff for God or for others, just for themselves. Why oh why don’t people see them as they really are?

    Note:: just tried doing the trademark sign in HTML, hope it worked!

  17. Just a reminder-I am discussing Justin Taylor’s tweets in this post-not Joe Carter’s tweets. They are easy to get confused since they both sound alike to me.

  18. @ dee:
    I’m using Windows. I googled a HTML how-to and it’s a short code that starts with &# then 0153.

    Also, I don’t want to be a pain but I have a comment in moderation over on the Nate Sparks post. Would you mind letting it through if you’re online and it’s ok to do so?

    MOD: OK EVERYONE STOP IT. Quit talking about moderation. Very few people don’t get there comments approved. Almost all make it through. (95% or more. Maybe 99%. I don’t have time to do the analysis.) But every time someone starts talking about moderation it means we have more moderated comments to deal with. Dee (and Deb) follow the blog closely. They tend to free up comments fairly quickly. I get an email on my phone and an alert for EVERY moderated comment. If they are backing up and I’m not having a really busy day I will jump in and take care of things.

    We are NOT singling out people. Well except for a few that really make statements outside of our boundaries. But for the vast majority everyone’s comments get through. And we say when we don’t let a comment through. (Well we don’t talk about the spell casters or blank ones or porn or ….)

    Again. Get over being moderated. (I get moderated a lot.) Just let the system work.

    GBTC

  19. Nancy2 wrote:

    Joe Carter needs a dictionary.

    A dictionary is definitely not the only thing this guy needs.

    First, he needs to do his own thinking, instead of regurgitating propaganda. Second, he needs to stop being so partisan. I don’t think his “take no prisoners” approach to dealing with different opinions or counter-arguments shows either confidence in the strength of his own arguments nor a very christian attitude. He has always (I have read some of his Twitter discussions, and some of his articles over the years) come across as unnecessarily abrasive and partisan. His religion smacks of ideology. And the last thing the world needs is (another) ideology.

  20. Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Joe Carter is the gospelly boys “attack dog” of choice. He wrote a book entitled “How to Argue Like Jesus: Learning Persuasion from History’s Greatest Communicator.”

    Years ago, there was a book called “How to argue and win every time” by a well-known lawyer (who else). I didn’t buy it – don’t need it, but should have when it was remaindered for a really low price.

    My wife and I had fun asking ourselves what would happen if two people who had read the book would get into an argument.

  21. @ Anne:

    WOOOOOOAAAAAAHH I WAS NOT EXPECTING THAT. O_O;;

    I know that my comment was probably the straw that broke the camel’s back but I had no idea this was what’s been going on behind the scenes. I’ve just started re-visiting TWW after about a year and I didn’t know there was such pestering about moderation as a whole. I thought that maybe it was a word I had said in that comment, that it might have been just a moderation blip, and I just considering catching dee about it while she was online. Again, had no idea about the scope of things.

    Completely innocent yet ignorant intentions, do believe me.

  22. There’s something I’ve been trying, and failing, to articulate on the “biblical manhood” posts, and I think have it now. There’s only so much emotion that can be conveyed through the gospel™ crowd’s tweets and articles, but a truly pathetic sight is to actually see a grown man becoming angry, and distressed, and raising his voice, at the notion that someone is criticizing his favorite celebrity pastor on the internet. It’s no more dignified than the “leave Britney alone” video.

    I realize the question of “what is manly” has as many answers as people in the world, and it could prompt a lifetime of sociological research, but these affectionate, emotional, and subservient relationships these people have to common men they only know through a computer screen, that ain’t it.

  23. Gus wrote:

    A dictionary is definitely not the only thing this guy needs.

    Agreed. And, most of this “ruling class” need something they don’t have, too ……… maybe Jesus? I believe that they do their own thinking and behave this way intentionally. Their abrasive, arrogant behavior is just to consistent and unapologetic to be otherwise.
    They are like Sadducees who are trying to create their own little modern day Sanhedrin, using their NT mistranslations as an excuse.

  24. Nancy2 wrote:

    And, most of this “ruling class” need something they don’t have, too ……… maybe Jesus? I believe that they do their own thinking and behave this way intentionally. Their abrasive, arrogant behavior is just to consistent and unapologetic to be otherwise.
    They are like Sadducees…

    This is the drum I’ve been beating for years. I believe for the most part, based upon fruits that should be obvious to one who has the Holy Spirit, that a large number of these people are either such deluded, wounded and dangerous Christians that they need to be avoided and called out publicly–or they are not Christians at all, just wolves hungry for money, power and Christian victims upon whom to vent their wrath.

    The real danger to the true Church is not from some sad and lonely atheist, it’s from the people who are drawn to the Church so that they can take out their hatred of the Lord upon His people. Jesus warned us about this.

  25. Mr. Taylor thinks correcting wrong teaching and doctrine is less important because those who teach the bad doctrine are somehow in a lofty position that requires us to follow them? That odd position is not at all supported in Scripture. He needs to read this short note on teaching and taking correction.

  26. I have to add this little rant — you know, because I’m an Arminian: The TGC boys club consistently and constantly betray their own professed theology: God has decreed every event, even influencing our desires and decisions, according to Calvin and Calvinists like Wayne Grudem.*

    So, then, whenever I read a whining complaint from such among the Boys Club, I just shake my head, shrug my shoulders, and wonder why they can’t live out their theology consistently. Taylor et al. can attempt to correct all the theology they desire all the live-long day, but their God decreed all opposing theological positions, including who would believe in whatever doctrine they oppose. Now, back to reality.

    *John Calvin, “Institutes of the Christian Religion,” trans. Henry Beveridge (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1993), I.18.1; I.18.4. Wayne A. Grudem, “Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine” (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994), 319-30; “Bible Doctrine: Essential Teachings of the Christian Faith,” ed. Jeff Purswell (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1999), 143.

  27. So Taylor thinks it’s okay to accuse Janet Mefferd without proof? Plus, plagarism is apparently okay. I think Taylor needs to do some heavy praying for wisdom.

  28. Law Prof wrote:

    The real danger to the true Church is not from some sad and lonely atheist, it’s from the people who are drawn to the Church so that they can take out their hatred of the Lord upon His people. Jesus warned us about this.

    “Target-rich Environment” plus it fits with the forgotten archetype of Antichrist: The Slick Deceiver.

  29. And, all the people that supported Mark Driscoll, and went after Janet Mufford, either do not think plagiarism is a big deal, or, they will cover their buddies at all costs.. I repeat, their was a fair amount of $$$ flying around these books…

    dee wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    plagiarism at this scale is VERY SERIOUS stuff… especially when it has been done multiple times over many years, and a large amount of $$$ are at stake..
    What this says to me is that Crossway cannot be trusted with their vetting process.

  30. Gus wrote:

    My wife and I had fun asking ourselves what would happen if two people who had read the book would get into an argument.

    Do either or both have access to anything sharp or pointy?

  31. Gus wrote:

    And the last thing the world needs is (another) ideology.

    Especially after the two Biggies that dominated the last century — and left a lot of the world in the mess it’s in today.

  32. “We are not ashamed to call C. J. a friend.”

    To which I say, what is a friend? and what do friends do for one another?

    Is a friend someone who looks the other way when you do something egregiously wrong? who has no inner strength to confront you for your own good? Is a friend a person who accepts a lame excuse because he doesn’t want to get into anything difficult or uncomfortable anyway? Is a friend someone who allows you to step off the edge of a cliff because correcting you might be kind of messy?

    Or is a friend someone who continues to pray for you and be there for you WHILE admitting and dealing with truth, while having higher expectations for you BECAUSE he cares about you?

    These are no friends of C J Mahaney. They are friends of themselves and their position and the status quo.

  33. THIS. And they all talk exactly alike, hence the confusion between Joe Carter and Justin Taylor. When people are clone-like and rebuke healthy emotion over child sex abuse, something is seriously wrong. There’s an element of culty going on. Paul rebuked Peter to his face for giving in to fear, and Peter commended him to the church. That’s how we are meant to love one another- warmly, openly, and honestly. All I’m seeing with these guys at TGC is corporate cult and control. No heart.

    @ siteseer:

  34. yeah- JT condemned plagiarism with Doug Wilson (guess it was about time), but maintains his right-ness on attacking Janet Mefferd because she pointed out Driscoll’s.

    Too proud to apologize is not becoming of a little Christ. And that’s just on the plagiarism issue.

    Beyond that, WHY in the evangelical world is plagiarism such a big deal, but “we mustn’t talk” about sexual abuse, nor vindicate the families wronged by SGM churches? WHY? Which is more impactful sin?

    Justin Taylor et al need to take down that disgusting statement promoting CJ Mahaney, then they need to free their schedules to sit down and listen to the families wronged by SGM. No togetherness conferences until they have walked through repentance for the sake of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is what should happen, among the people of God.

    Plagiarism is certainly stealing and sin, but seriously, enough already. This is everything that is wrong with TGC. There’s something completely wrong with this picture -it sure isn’t Christlike-when the narrative on child sex abuse is to handle it winsomely. Wickedness.

    @ Patriciamc:

  35. “She’s merely using my article as a whipping boy so that she can defend the reckless and counterproductive assertions made by Boz Tchividjian.”

    I’d like to comment on two words in Carter’s statement because I find it interesting that he chose these words. People choose the words they use for a reason.

    1. Reckless. We use the word ‘reckless’ in regard to carelessly doing something which could put others in danger of harm.

    In what way can the assertion that the evangelical church has a bigger sex abuse problem than the Catholic church endanger anyone? And if it did, who would it endanger?

    If evangelicals take Tchividian’s warning to heart and put into place better methods of preventing and dealing with sex abuse, will the little ones be more at risk or less at risk?

    If it results in sex abuse that has been covered up being brought out into the open, if guilty persons are removed from positions of trust and victims are afforded the resources they need to recover, will that result in more danger or less danger? Who exactly could it endanger? The victims or the abusers?

    If evangelical churches become better able to recognize sex abusers and keep them from positions where they can cause harm, will that result in less risk for the churches or more?

    Where is the danger of harm in Tchividjian’s assertion that led Carter to choose the term ‘reckless’ as appropriate?

    I can only think of 2 possible dangers: The first is the idea that it could hurt the church’s credibility in the world’s eyes. I don’t believe this, I believe it would actually improve the church’s credibility, but some may fear it will interfere with marketing the church and attracting new members, which leads to the question of whether it is mainly a matter of financial support.

    Those who think in terms of numbers and finances tend to cover their avarice with statements to the effect that it is human souls they are concerned about, but I find this conveniently self-serving and it leads to the ‘end justifies the means’ situation we have in the church today.

    (I am curious if the Catholic church’s credibility in the eyes of the world has declined or improved as a result of their improved handling of sex abuse cases?)

    The second way this concept could be seen as dangerous is that it could threaten the credibility of those who have something to hide. Is this a concern anyone should care about? I think not.

    2. Counterproductive. We use the word counterproductive when a concept would actually have the opposite of the desired affect. Carter claims that Tchividjian’s statement is counterproductive.

    Is there some way that Tchividian’s premise could cause more sex abuse in the church, rather than less? If the church accepts his warning and puts into place better methods for safeguarding children and dealing with abuse, will it cause more or less sex abuse to happen?

    I think that it obviously would tend towards less sex abuse. So in what way could anyone think it would be counterproductive?

    Again, I think it would only be counterproductive to those who want a church they can market to the naive as being free of sex abuse issues and for those whose positions would be jeopardized in some way, or those who have something to hide.

    So the final question is, which position would Jesus support? The desire to protect children or the desire to keep up outward appearances for the sake of gain or for self protection? I think the answer is obvious.

    I trust that Boz Tchividian has done a great deal of research into the situation and I value his opinion. I am not sure how much research Carter has done?

    Whether someone agrees that the evangelical church’s sex abuse problem is as big as the Catholic church’s or not, the words “reckless” and “counterproductive” are overly defensive. And that gives me concern.

    (And I won’t even go into his choice of the term “whipping boy”…)

  36. Excellent points. Based on his arrogant response said person has no business in ministry. Corporate cult politics. Not the gospel. There are a lot of good people in TGC, and I suggest now would be the time for them to get out or get those guys out and get GRACE in.

    As for TGC churches, they are certainly not safe for children if they think like he does. The institution is not the Body. All this concern for image-so what if a church institution falls, if they do everything to protect kids? Is Christ going to somehow stop building His church? Such people have no concept of Chrstianity nor Christlikeness.

    I am reminded of a Michael Card song:
    “Satan’s own law is to sell and to buy
    God’s only way is to give and to die”

    That’s the gospel life.
    It’s not and never about image maintainance.

    I would rather not take my children to church than expose them to such spiritual danger.

    @ siteseer:

  37. Ps Typical to deflect by attacking someone wholly unrelated to the current issue. They just want to attack Boz for telling it as it is. A cursory glance at news nationwide proves the evangelical/Protestant church has a huge sex abuse problem. People need to see that modus operandi for what it is: deception and narcissism.

  38. I misread something btw-the above ps might not be clear what it is referring to. I needed to go back and read the context a bit better. Apologies.

    However, it does seem to me that there are leaders who are quick to obscure issues by attacking Boz or someone outside of a current kurfuffle as causing the problem.

    No, maybe many of us read around for ourselves and have found Boz is right. It’s heartbreaking how many cases are put there.

    Hope that clarifies my reaction to certain reckless commentary.

    @ Melody:

  39. “the last thing we need — in the current context, at this time of rampant sexual abuse in evangelicalism and the relative silence about it in our churches — is someone at The Gospel Coalition trying to tell us not to rebuke the church for its apathy on any issue.”
    Janet Mefferd
    This though. There is no logical nor Christian reason for Joe Carter to call Boz’ statements reckless. The irony is that the T4G conference is on being Protestant. You would think that T4G people would therefore wish to protest any evil among God’s people and be above approach by contrast to Catholicism. But when they behave just like the Catholics did, in fact, there is no logical reason for them to be Protestant at all.

  40. I remember when Justin Taylor was just getting his feet wet. I remember meeting him – that big, awkward man who was clearly uncomfortable in his own skin and the fact that some stranger recognized him. He was a pretty good dude. Then he changed. I watched it happen in real time, and I was at THE seminary at the time. I always wondered what happened to turn him. I suspect it was money. I have some knowledge of the “inner workings” of the Calvinista Publishing Industrial Complex. It is difficult for anyone to make a living in fundamentalism without changing for the worse, and this group makes it even more obnoxious by using words like “gospel” and “biblical” as shibboleths or putdowns (kind of like the way some people use the word “liberal” to mean “disagrees with me”).

  41. @ Melody:
    Of course, Melody; at least to anyone with a reasonably functioning moral compass. But the truth is, Carter is reckless. And mean. And does not exhibit any of the fruits of the spirit. Consistently. Why TGC would actually pay this classless jerk to be their watchdog is baffling.

  42. So Taylor by function, and Carter by definition are watch-bloggers. Are they somehow exempt? Yes. Because they have the imprimatur. They are sanctioned. There are many things about the Neo-Cal movement that is distasteful. This is one of them.

  43. What pleases me most about this post is it exposes an ugly truth about the TGC’s arrogance. They don’t think their audience is smart enough to read and research between the lines. They make preposterous assertions assuming no one will have either the balls or brains to challenge them. So when it happens, they angrily lash out with bad logic and the “you aren’t biblical” arguments, both of which aren’t up to snuff. The cherry on top is who God preordained to take them down a peg – mostly women! Excellent, excellent job, Dee!!

  44. Well, Wenatchee The Hatchet can say sorry about not having all the facts before publishing a post.

    Did Justin Taylor get a galley proof copy of Real Marriage and could he confirm that? Because … a document reflecting the Mark Driscoll marketing strategy for Real Marriage recommended Justin Taylor get a galley proof of the book.

    http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2015/12/a-blast-from-past-mark-grace-driscoll.html

    Did Taylor get one? Can he confirm that?

  45. Joe Carter had a post late last year asking if evangelicals are addicted to pseudo-events? Depends … are we talking ordinary Christians or Christians in media? Because Christians in media in the US may be addicted to pseudo-events … but some participants in the TGC over the years have a history of making pseudo-events.

    http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2015/12/ht-phoenix-preacher-joe-carter-writes.html

    Driscoll created a pseudo-event around reactions to his riff on effeminate male worship leaders to promote his forthcoming Real Marriage book and Pastor Mark TV back in 2011.

    Doug Wilson managed to use internet flaps about him as an occasion to promote A Justice Primer. At the moment it seems that those who have mastered the pseudo-event have promoted pseudo-books. There’s so much great Christian writing in every tradition that’s already public domain after all … . Maybe not an English translation of the Samaritan Pentateuch, of course … .

  46. Absolutely. The only reckless words I’ve seen thrown around have been from HIM. He used to intimidate me until I saw through his tactics. He’d work well within Scientology unfortunately for him. The fact that is the standard over at TGC is telling.

    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

  47. And I’m sure he might respond that my words are reckless slander, but my response would be:
    ” go and learn what if the shoe fits means”…
    He has had a pattern of attacking people for being anonymous while discussing issues or for simply disagreeing with him. That kind of bully culture he promotes is what is truly unbecoming of a Christian. @ Melody:

  48. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Gus wrote:

    And the last thing the world needs is (another) ideology.

    Especially after the two Biggies that dominated the last century — and left a lot of the world in the mess it’s in today.

    Indeed.

  49. Melody wrote:

    And they all talk exactly alike, hence the confusion between Joe Carter and Justin Taylor. When people are clone-like and rebuke healthy emotion over child sex abuse, something is seriously wrong. There’s an element of culty going on.

    I personally would say that there is also a degree of cheerful abandonment of all Christ came to teach us. (Like, you know, “it were better that a millstone be puy around his neck”). They’ve not only signed onto the Cult Of The Pastor=3rd Menber Of The Trinity, they forbidden Him entrance into the door. (“It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God”).
    Scary. And NOT Christian. (It’s not even “christian” or “xtian”).

  50. Kemi wrote:

    What pleases me most about this post is it exposes an ugly truth about the TGC’s arrogance. They don’t think their audience is smart enough to read and research between the lines. They make preposterous assertions assuming no one will have either the balls or brains to challenge them. So when it happens, they angrily lash out with bad logic and the “you aren’t biblical” arguments, both of which aren’t up to snuff. The cherry on top is who God preordained to take them down a peg – mostly women! Excellent, excellent job, Dee!!

    I’m not sure that it’s a matter of them not thinking their audience is smart enough, I’m not sure they even think about their audience, at least those warming the pews, they are irrelevant except as useful revenue units; it’s more a matter, I think, of them not being smart enough to read and research. When you insulate yourself so thoroughly that you are surrounded with those of purely like mind, you tend over time to become so intellectually lazy that there is no category for you other than “stupid”.

  51. Melody wrote:

    Absolutely. The only reckless words I’ve seen thrown around have been from HIM. He used to intimidate me until I saw through his tactics. He’d work well within Scientology unfortunately for him. The fact that is the standard over at TGC is telling.

    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:

    He does sound sorta like a little Tom Cruise clone, doesn’t he?

  52. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    I remember when Justin Taylor was just getting his feet wet. I remember meeting him – that big, awkward man who was clearly uncomfortable in his own skin and the fact that some stranger recognized him. He was a pretty good dude. Then he changed. I watched it happen in real time, and I was at THE seminary at the time. I always wondered what happened to turn him. I suspect it was money. I have some knowledge of the “inner workings” of the Calvinista Publishing Industrial Complex. It is difficult for anyone to make a living in fundamentalism without changing for the worse, and this group makes it even more obnoxious by using words like “gospel” and “biblical” as shibboleths or putdowns (kind of like the way some people use the word “liberal” to mean “disagrees with me”).

    I once knew a fellow, on a first name basis, back when he was nobody, great backslapping bonhomie, who’s now a household name in YRR circles. It was the same thing, seemed like a great guy when he was a 20-something nobody finding his way, but now seems to have allied himself with such scoundrels that a couple decades later it appears as if he’s part of the problem. Maybe it starts out as just Jesus for some, but then they start running with the wrong crowd and ignore that tug at the edge of their conscience, the Holy Spirit, and start rationalizing and defending the indefensible and become more and more allied with those who really don’t care about much other than the promotion of their own fame, and bit by bit they become a monster.

  53. Law Prof wrote:

    I once knew a fellow, on a first name basis, back when he was nobody, great backslapping bonhomie, who’s now a household name in YRR circles. It was the same thing, seemed like a great guy when he was a 20-something nobody finding his way, but now seems to have allied himself with such scoundrels that a couple decades later it appears as if he’s part of the problem.

    I’ve seen this on several occasions within some corporations I have consulted with over the years. Seemingly nice people were promoted and interpreted their new job description as an “enforcer”, alienating everyone that used to be their peers. In two of the cases the CEO’s and their enforcers crashed the company. This is not something that should be seen in a church but unfortunately it is.

  54. WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:

    Joe Carter had a post late last year asking if evangelicals are addicted to pseudo-events? Depends … are we talking ordinary Christians or Christians in media? Because Christians in media in the US may be addicted to pseudo-events … but some participants in the TGC over the years have a history of making pseudo-events.

    Isn’t a pseudo-event what used to be called a Publicity Stunt?

  55. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    So Taylor by function, and Carter by definition are watch-bloggers. Are they somehow exempt? Yes. Because they have the imprimatur. They are sanctioned.

    Their Ideology is Pure, Comrade.

  56. Law Prof wrote:

    I’m not sure that it’s a matter of them not thinking their audience is smart enough, I’m not sure they even think about their audience, at least those warming the pews, they are irrelevant except as useful revenue units; it’s more a matter, I think, of them not being smart enough to read and research. When you insulate yourself so thoroughly that you are surrounded with those of purely like mind, you tend over time to become so intellectually lazy that there is no category for you other than “stupid”.

    I think you are right! Which makes it even worse. It’s one thing to be thought ill of, but to not be thought of at all is a bigger insult.

  57. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:

    Joe Carter had a post late last year asking if evangelicals are addicted to pseudo-events? Depends … are we talking ordinary Christians or Christians in media? Because Christians in media in the US may be addicted to pseudo-events … but some participants in the TGC over the years have a history of making pseudo-events.

    Isn’t a pseudo-event what used to be called a Publicity Stunt?

    Perhaps a publicity stunt is something “we” do and pseudo-events are something “they” do. Sort of the “I am firm”/”You are obstinate” distinction. 🙂

  58. Bill M wrote:

    In two of the cases the CEO’s and their enforcers crashed the company. This is not something that should be seen in a church but unfortunately it is.

    This is because much of the church has become like the world, the gentiles, just exactly what Jesus told His disciples not to do, with preening peacocks jockeying for position, associating only with luminaries of similar rank, brutally treating those not considered of sufficient rank who dare to challenge their authority and self-perceived wisdom, harboring bitter envy for those above them in rank and influence (they flatter these), cold disregard for those whom they perceive as below them (they abuse these).

    They divide the Body of Christ into artificial, distinctly unbiblical hierarchies, they stand between followers of Jesus and Jesus Himself, they hate any who tries to seek Jesus without recognizing their self-proclaimed authority.

    And yet, the ones who divide the Body into artificial parts, the ones who try to prevent the true Church from seeking the real Pastor, accuse everyone but themselves of being “divisive”.

  59. Please tell me that the “Lydia” Joe Carter calls out on the Lumpkins post as being “shameful and unbecoming of a Christian” is “our Lydia”! Boy these Masters of the Universe can get really frustrated when the widdell girls stand up to them and tell the truth. Whatever she said must have really struck a nerve to get that kind of an ad hominem. Well done Lydia, Janet, Dee and Deb!

  60. Dee: “Is he sending a warning to plagiarizing pastors and church leaders to stay away from Mefferd because she will call them on it?”

    Yes.