The SBC International Mission Board Needs an Experienced Fiscal Leader and a Clear Vision

Must you go to China? How much nicer it would be to stay here and serve the Lord at home!" She made it plain at last that she would not go to China." – J. Hudson Taylor's new ex-girlfriend link

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Although I no longer attend an SBC church, opting for a more liturgical flavor in my worship, there is one thing that I always admired about the SBC and that was its support of missionaries through their International Missions Board. My husband and I have supported more than a few missionaries who are not with the SBC. Many of them spend an inordinate amount of time, both before entering the mission field and while on the mission field, raising money. It has always seemed to me to be an incredible waste of time when they could be performing such vital services in underserved areas. In this respect, the IMB has done it right, removing from the missionary the need to constantly raise funds.

David Platt, who was appointed to lead the IMB in August or 2014, released an open letter which has become the source of much controversy. I have highlighted portions of the letter which are of particular interest to the Deebs, particularly in light of our MBAs. Some of our observations might be controversial but, if we think it, we bet others are thinking the same thing. 

Open letter from David Platt

September 4, 2015

Dear SBC Family,

By now many of you may have heard that last week, IMB announced a plan to reduce the total number of our personnel (both here and overseas) by 600-800 people over the next six months. Since the moment this announcement was made, we have sought to communicate the details of this decision as clearly as possible to churches, state conventions, and national entities across the SBC (see this article and this FAQ document, in particular). In the middle of it all, though, I simply want to take a moment to share my heart with you.

This is certainly not an announcement that I, in any way, wanted to make. At the most recent meeting of the SBC in Columbus, I shared with messengers how IMB spent tens of millions more dollars than we received last year. In our budgeting process over the last couple of months, other leaders and I have recognized that we will have a similar shortfall this year, and we are projecting another shortfall of like magnitude next year. In fact, when we stepped back and looked at IMB finances since 2010, we realized that IMB has spent a combined $210 million more than people have given to us. By God’s grace, we have been able to cover these costs through reserves and global property sales. But we don’t have an endless supply of global property to sell, and our cash reserves are no longer at a desirable level for good stewardship going forward.

When staff leadership realized the severity of our financial situation, we knew that we needed to take significant action. We spent hours on our knees praying and at tables discussing potential options for balancing our budget, ranging from sending fewer missionaries to cutting various costs. We poured over financial models and looked at the long-term impact of each of our options. However, with 80% of our budget being devoted to personnel salary, benefits, and support expenses, we inevitably realized that any effort to balance our budget would require major adjustments in the number of our personnel. When we gathered with our trustees at our most recent meeting, the same conclusion was clear. Though board policy did not require an official trustee vote, and though these brothers and sisters agonized over the thought of many missionaries stepping off of the field, there was resolute and resounding recognition across the room that our financial situation required such action.

Some pastors have asked me over this last week, “Why doesn’t the IMB just ask the churches to give more money?” This sounds like a simple solution, but the IMB has been asking churches to give more money for many years. In many ways, we have told the church about our need and called the church to give to meet that need. Here’s just a small sampling of headlines and articles we have published:

2008 – “IMB reports cautionary finance news that could have a significant impact on the Board’s work around the world next year.” Later that year, our trustee chair said to churches, “I am sounding the alarm. The IMB budget is under strain to support growth in our missionary force.”

2009 – “Economic challenges…IMB anticipating another tough financial year…IMB in budget shortfall crisis [that] could affect 600 positions.”

2010 – “IMB lamenting financial declines, trying to balance budget…IMB sending 30 percent fewer long-term personnel than would be sent if there were no financial constraints.”

2011 – “IMB having difficulty balancing budget…IMB lowering the missionary force.”

2012 – “IMB preparing for another sobering financial report…IMB working through a painfully difficult process of trying to balance the budget.”

2013 – “IMB urging for greater support from churches…IMB laments Christian callousness…IMB trustees vote for substantive proposal changes across the SBC.”

2014 – Just two months before I stepped into my role, one article read: “IMB must soon come to grips with the demands placed on us by years of declining Cooperative Program receipts and Lottie Moon giving. We will be hard-pressed to continue supporting a mission force of our current number, much less see a greatly needed increase in the number of fully supported career missionaries on the field.”

I share all of this simply to say that we haven’t kept our financial position a secret. By God’s grace, the church has responded in many ways, including various special offerings like “Christmas in August” in 2009 and increased giving to the IMB through both the Cooperative Program and the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering over the last four years. Yet while IMB has been asking churches to give and setting aggressive goals accordingly, the reality remains unchanged: IMB has spent $210 million more than we have been given. Simply put, we cannot keep operating like this.

Do I hope that churches give more to the IMB through the Cooperative Program and the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering this year? Absolutely, and we are working zealously with churches, state conventions, and national entities toward this end. But I want to be crystal clear: I don’t blame the church for putting IMB in our current position. I love the church, we as IMB want to serve the church, and we believe the best way for us to do that right now is by operating within the means provided to us by the church.

Similarly, no blame should be assigned to previous IMB leadership. Previous leaders knew these financial realities, and they put in place a plan to slowly reduce our mission force (through normal attrition and reduced appointments) while using reserves and global property sales to keep as many missionaries on the field as possible. I praise God for the resources He provided to make that plan possible, and I praise God for leaders who chose not to sit on those resources, but to spend them for the spread of the gospel among the unreached. Ultimately, I praise God for the people who came to Christ over these last years because missionaries stayed on the field, and because we used our resources to keep them there.

Yet when staff and trustee leaders alike looked at the realities before us, we realized that plan is no longer viable, for we cannot continue to overspend as we have. For the sake of short-term financial responsibility and long-term organizational stability, we must put ourselves in a position in which we can operate within our budget, which necessarily means reducing the number of our personnel.

Words really can’t describe how much a sentence like that pains me to write, and pained me to communicate last week. For “600” and “800” are not just figures on a page; they are people around the world. For many of you, they are your family, friends, and fellow church members. They are brothers and sisters whom I love, and brothers and sisters whom I want to serve and support. I not only want as many of them as possible to stay on the field; I want multitudes more to join them on the field. But in order to even have a conversation about how to mobilize more people in the future, IMB must get to a healthy financial place in the present.

I hope that all of this information helps give you a small glimpse into why IMB is taking these steps at this time. You can go to the links I referenced above to learn more about the two-phase process we are walking through over the next six months to reduce the number of our personnel. Our aim is to make this process as voluntary as possible, starting with a Voluntary Retirement Incentive, and then moving to an opportunity for other personnel to say voluntarily, “I believe the Lord may be leading me to a new assignment.” As the Lord leads 600-800 brothers and sisters into new places and positions over these days, we want to honor every single one of them with generous support, realizing that the longer we wait to take this action, the less generous we can be.

The comment I have appreciated most from pastors and church members during these days has been, “How can we help?” One way is obviously to give. To be sure, IMB is committed to operating within our means in the days ahead, yet we are praying that those means might increase so that we can stop pulling missionaries off of the field and start sending multitudes onto the field. Indeed, the field is ripe for harvest, and the time is now to take the gospel to those who have never heard it. Further, in light of all that I have shared, I would also encourage your church to consider how you might care for one of these missionaries who will soon be moving back to the United States. I am trusting that our Southern Baptist family will welcome these brothers and sisters with open arms as they integrate into our churches here, making disciples of the nations God has brought to our own backyard.

Finally, and most importantly, I would ask you to pray for the IMB during these days. Please pray that God will provide grace, wisdom, strength, and unity across the IMB family as we navigate the various challenges that we are walking through together over the next six months. Ultimately, please pray that God will use these days to set the stage for this 170-year-old missions organization to thrive for decades to come or until Jesus returns. In this historic coalition of churches called the Southern Baptist Convention, may we strive together toward that end.

For His Glory,  David Platt

Was David Platt the best choice for the head of the International Missions Board in light of the dire financial situation?

Although I am not a Calvinist, I have long thought that David Platt was a thoughtful and sacrificial pastor and wrote a post on my reasons here. I have visited his former church on several occasions and found his quiet, laid back style a refreshing change from the typical hipster pastor. There is no question in my mind that Platt cares deeply about missions. He is well educated, holding a PhD from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. He is quite convicting about self -sacrifice,especially for himself and led a growing church in the midst of a wealthy area of Birmingham. 

It is evident that the IMB has had serious fiscal problems for years. Anyone with any business sense would have seen this. The IMB is blessed with many missionaries and leaders who get the need for missions. The IMB did not need another missions' champion. It is, and has been, in dire need of a financial expert to lead them out of this quagmire. 

It is our belief that the IMB should be led, for now, by an competent money manager with experience in internal auditing, budget projections and  fundraising. Then, let those who love international missions get back to doing just that.

David Platt admits that while he was pastor of the Church of Brook Hill, he did not financially prioritize the Cooperative Program.

When Platt was pastor of the Church of Brook Hills, his church was not known for their donations to the Cooperative Program. Before anyone jumps down my throat by showing his church's donations in 2013, I want you to realize that even Platt admits to his failings in this area. The Baptist Reflector brings this controversy to light.

Several of the Tennessee trustees said they were concerned by The Church at Brook Hill’s lack of support for the Cooperative Program, but were reassured by comments that Platt made to the trustees.

…David Miller, director of missions for Indian Creek Baptist Association, noted he was concerned about Platt’s CP record.  Miller noted that Platt was willing to say he was wrong about the Cooperative Program and that he will work to lead others to give to the SBC giving channel. “I believe that what he did is not what he will do. The Lord convinced me to put trust in him.”

…In a follow up question concerning his church’s perceived lack of support in giving through the Cooperative Program, Platt acknowledged that The Church at Brook Hills “is not a perfect model when it comes to giving” but that “it made strides.”

Platt said he desires to work closely with Baptist state conventions and other SBC entities. “I want to trumpet the Great Commission and disciples made here (North America) and among the nations. That is what we cooperate for,” he said. The Cooperative Program is the “most effective means” to do that, he said. 

This seems to be at odds with Platt's statement from his open letter.

Do I hope that churches give more to the IMB through the Cooperative Program and the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering this year? Absolutely, and we are working zealously with churches, state conventions, and national entities toward this end.

Why would we expect that a pastor, who showed little commitment to the Cooperative program, would suddenly be able to become a zealous cheerleader influencing churches to do more in this area? Trust me, with the Internet they will find out. Again, I am not saying that Platt is not committed to missions. He is. But is he the right leader for the nuts and bolts of the organization that gives him little opportunity to utilize his skills that he demonstrated at his former church?

Why should church members care about a Baptist mission organization when many of them don't even know they are Baptist?

I live in an area which is replete with SBC churches which do not have the word *Baptist* in their name. I don't think they need to have the word in their name but it should be clear to regular attendees that they are affiliated with the SBC. Not only that, if someone does not read the fine print in the documents of one of these churches (not everyone is like the Deebs who make it a habit to read church websites and documents for fun) they will not find it easily in those as well. Do you know how many people in our area attend these churches and do not realize that they are Baptist? 

Here is a true story. A patient was being checked into a hospital by a technician who knows a great deal about the church scene in our area. When asked about ther religious preference, she mentioned she was a member of a well known church.T he technician said "OK, so your preference is Baptist." The patient denied it emphatically, claiming she had never been Baptist. She is Baptist but she doesn't know it. Could a lack of name identification cause a lack of dnterest in a Baptist exclusive missions group?

Is church planting (or the Baptist Ferengi plan of church acquisitions) in the United States, in upper middle class areas already served by other churches, causing money to be diverted from international missions?

Let me tell you about a Baptist church in the Southeast. This church has committed to planting a church every year for the next 10 years in cooperation with a couple of other churches. This year, they have donate $75,000 with commitments to continue to give money to help keep the church going in the coming years. At the same time, they plan to add another church each year. 

It is obvious to the two of us that this will cause financial difficulties if the start up churches need much support. The money going into this project will cause money that would have flowed to the Baptist mission boards to decline. Is church planting by local churches causing a decline an interest in donating money to a cause far away. Could this be the reason why Platt's former church did not commit to the fund?

If no one is to blame, then there is no solution.

 …I don’t blame the church(es)
… no blame should be assigned to previous IMB leadership.

It is implied that we shouldn't blame the current leadership either. Once again, it is obvious that the IMB is in a financial mess. Sorry, David, but the buck stops with the leadership. There have been a series of poor decisions that resulted in rising deficit spending since 2008, a time of economic decline in the US as a whole. The IMB sounds like the federal government. The debt just keeps rising and keeps getting passed off to the next generation or leaders. That sort of poor fiscal management is guaranteed to fail.

A lack of true transparency could to a sense of complacency on the part of the general membership. 

 I share all of this simply to say that we haven’t kept our financial position a secret.

I spoke with a well connected SBC leader who made an excellent point. He said that the IMB annually makes statements of deficits. He claimed that they never announced just how desperate the deficit was becoming.This is seen in the numbers of people who have claimed disbelief that things could have gotten that bad without anyone fully understanding it. Frankly, communication to the membership was lacking. The question is why?  Did the leadership really know or were they so disengaged from thoughtful fiscal management that they couldn't tell a crisis was coming. Or did they just plain decide to keep it on the down low?

A lack of transparency could lead to an alienation of supporters.

The following statement was just a bit troubling to me.

Previous leaders knew these financial realities, and they put in place a plan to slowly reduce our mission force (through normal attrition and reduced appointments) while using reserves and global property sales to keep as many missionaries on the field as possible. I praise God for the resources He provided to make that plan possible, and I praise God for leaders who chose not to sit on those resources, but to spend them for the spread of the gospel among the unreached

When things were getting so bad that the IMB needed to sell off resources, they should have announced this to the general membership prior to the actual sale. When such actions are taken, it could be perceived by the little guy that his thoughts on the matter are not needed of wanted. The only thing needed is his money. If I were currently a member of the SBC, I would not give another dime to this fiasco until I was assured that back room rummage sales and fiscal mismanagement would not continue to rule the day.

Are church planting/church acquisition/ mission efforts always about taking the gospel to the unreached?

Now I am going to meddle.

, yet we are praying that those means might increase so that we can stop pulling missionaries off of the field and start sending multitudes onto the field. Indeed, the field is ripe for harvest, and the time is now to take the gospel to those who have never heard it

Why are so many church plants/acquisitions placed in areas in which there is a well off population base which are already served by other Bible believing churches? If we really want to reach the unreached or disenfranchised, why not plant churches in those areas? The one church I mentioned above spent that money to plant a church in a well off area which has plenty of churches. Is this really about planting the "right type" of church which emphasizes a particular doctrinal bent? Is this about spreading the gospel or spreading secondary doctrine and spreading it to well off people. Is it about sharing the gospel or merely shifting the sheep?

There are churches which plant their style of church in very wealthy countries as well. For example, one SBC church has planted not one, but two churches, in the wealthy city of Dubai which is made up of well off business people from around the world? Where are the plants in impoverished areas?

This brings me back to the IMB. So many of those missionaries serve in difficult areas that are not magnets for the hipster pastors who live very, very well and buy fog machines and expensive coffee for their well heeled customers.members. Many of these missionaries target the poor, the hurting, and the forgotten. Some risk their lives by serving the very sick or venturing into war torn areas. They reach out to babies and children who are dying of hunger.

Let me tell you where I am at. Unless the SBC IMB turns itself around financially and targets the truly unreached and impoverished people of this world, I would not give any money directly to the agency. Instead, I would find the missionaries who are serving the poor and unreached and fund them directly. As for church plants, I wouldn't give a dime to a church plant in an area with wealthy people and a plethora of established churches. Put you money where you know it is used wisely. 

Comments

The SBC International Mission Board Needs an Experienced Fiscal Leader and a Clear Vision — 266 Comments


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    Am I first? 🙂


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    I am constantly dismayed at the financial illiteracy of most pastors. Oh, they may be familiar with Dave Ramsey and his “debt relief snowball” but that does not prepare anyone for corporate financial management. I could not agree more- the IMB needs a strong fiscally minded leader, at least a CFO or COO who is not swayed by Platt’s name or personality. Unfortunately, many promotions in the SBC are through nepotism or as the result of flattery and not because the person is the most qualified for the job.


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    You guys have to read how this is being covered and discussed at The Friendly Atheist blog by Hemhent Mehta. This one reasonates with me having spent a good chunk of time outside Christianity.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/08/28/southern-baptist-convention-will-lay-off-hundreds-of-people-as-part-of-gods-sovereign-plan/


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    Dee,

    It is good to see you use the word “unreached” instead of unchurched. Missions is first and foremost about reaching those who have not heard the gospel that saves. When I hear someone say they want to reach the unchurched I think they want to build a business and it usually is in a affluent area.


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    @ Daisy:
    Faster than a speeding bullet.


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    Q wrote:

    When I hear someone say they want to reach the unchurched I think they want to build a business and it usually is in a affluent area.

    Great comment.


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    From article –

    “Where are the plants in impoverished areas?”

    That will not allow the lifestyle the planter is looking for.


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    “Where are the plants in impoverished areas?”

    Come on, it would take forever to get the church coffee shop up and going.


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    Many of them spend an inordinate amount of time, both before entering the mission field and while on the mission field, raising money. It has always seemed to me to be an incredible waste of time when they could be performing such vital services in underserved areas.

    I have a different take. I believe the fundraising process keeps people accountable and connected. The fundraising effort can also be viewed as the much needed grass roots exercise in promoting the cause.

    There are many things in life that seem inefficient, competition can viewed as duplication of effort, but when these “inefficient” things are removed the system breaks down. In this case the recipient becomes unmoored, and the giver becomes detached.

    I recall Milton Friedman’s hierarchy of spending, most efficient to least efficient (working from memory):
    spend your own money on yourself (you value the cost, you know the need)
    spend your own money on someone else (you value the cost)
    spend money from someone else on yourself (you know the need)
    spend money from someone else on someone else (you know little)

    Inserting a mission board puts you at the bottom of the list and puts some in between the giver and the need. The result is less efficiency due to less knowledge and accountability.

    Feel free to disagree, I give to individuals rather than large organizations.


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    I have a background in church planting … being a member in two of them during the 1970s and 1980s, then helping on about 8 Southern Baptist planting teams between the mid-1990s and early 2000 decade, and working with other SBC and non-SBC social enterprise start-ups and church transitions after that. Plus serving on SBC church planting candidate assessment teams, mostly evaluating communication skills for clarity of thought and for cross-cultural potential.

    Also, I have a degree in linguistics and ESL, and a deep interest in culture and making the gospel understandable cross-culturally. So, I’ve been reading materials on missions theory and contextualization since the late 1970s.

    All of that doesn’t make me an expert, but at least hopefully a very thoughtful observer who can come up with good questions about these situations.

    So, some thoughts on the church planting and missions aspects of all this, in the bigger picture.

    First, in light of the IMB open letter from David Platt, I began wondering if many Neo-Calvinists/Neo-Puritans went to global mission fields via the International Mission Board — or if they concentrated their efforts into funding and other resources via the North American Mission Board’s Nehemiah Program and later church planting efforts. I suspect it’s the latter. I’m not sure that certain kinds of Calvinists are all that into evangelism/missions, depending on how hard-core they are about their doctrine of election. They seem more interested in discipling and disciplining the elect.

    I’m also not sure about the view of “redemptive suffering” and working for the Kingdom by Neo-Calvinists/Neo-Puritans — I generally hear those kinds of reflective thoughts from those who believe more in choice and who are choosing to make major sacrifices to pioneer in places where being a Christian is rough.

    And that leads to the second point. I’ve been observing some of the discussion by my friends who work internationally among least-reached people groups, as they hash through this open letter and a related post about SBC seminary president, Paige Patterson (“Paige Patterson details missiological ‘battle’ at IMB” — see link below).

    https://baptistnews.com/faith/missions/item/30470-paige-patterson-details-battle-at-imb

    Missions is generally seen as involving “soul winning.” Some cross-cultural missions-minded friends (who are not Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan) wonder if those who emphasize leading people to Christ, and/or those promoting more indigenous/self-sustaining church planting movements, will be the ones cut by the IMB when it gets to that stage of their plans.

    There are other issues afoot, given the range of views on church planting movements (CPM) and related methodologies. (The Baptist News article starts getting at some, but mostly from the vantagepoint of just David Garrison’s theories.) But these theological slants on church planting and missions kept coming up for me as I processed the open letter. So I thought I’d comment on those, and perhaps will try to tackle CPM issues some other time.

    Hope those are of some help.


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    At least Platt recognizes that the 600-800 are not just numbers on a page, but people around the world. Unlike “stats” Stetzer’s pulling the 400 Ashley-Madison-using church leaders supposed to have resigned a few Sundays ago out of his, er, hat….
    Speaking of 400, about that many folks in a certain neighborhood of my acquaintance were recently given just 30 days to vacate their apartments so the owners can renovate and charge about $300 more per month. Most of these people are refugees.


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    Burwell Stark wrote:

    many promotions in the SBC are through nepotism or as the result of flattery and not because the person is the most qualified for the job

    And I’m sure Platt’s popularity in the New Calvinist movement had a LOT to do with his selection. I agree that the budgets of these huge SBC entities need to be under the control of financial professionals, rather than pastors. After a quarter billion dollar deficit-spending over the last 10 years, that consideration is a little late!

    New Calvinists now head 7 of 11 SBC entities, including leading seminaries, the home mission agency, the foreign mission venture, and publishing house. Calvinization of the SBC is in full-swing, largely unnoticed by the apathetic millions of non-Calvinists in SBC membership. I fully expect IMB replacement missionaries hitting the field in future years, if/when funding improves, will be of the reformed persuasion.


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    But there are people to blame. Danny Akin, President of SEBTS, said the pew sitters were “selfish”. Iorg, President of Golden Gate claims the pew sitters are “robbing God”.

    But what is even more telling is that the same high level bureaucrats who oversaw this disaster are the same ones in charge of fixing it!

    Personally, I believe Platt is the figurehead who was given talking points. He has several characteristics to have made him the perfect candidate in spite of his only seeing the “beauty and usefulness of the Cooperative Program” when he was selected for the job.

    He is more like a celebrity endorsing a product that is rebranding.

    They are: He would be more likely to convince the YRR church plants to give to the CP. He has made a big deal of sending more missionaries in spite the recent announcment which means more YRR missionaries. He comes off as humble and has quite a following with “Radical”. He was also the best choice to present a “Godfather” offer you cannot refuse. The career missionaries over 50 were told to take this or it would be much worse. (Nevermind that plan to add more younger? missionaries). This might make sense if the older missionaries made a lot of money but they certainly do not. Someone in the field recently told me it was about 3000 per month.

    This is not a good time to be over 50 anywhere unless you are rich, powerful and ruthless. And now that includes Christians in the SBC! As we have seen with the YRR Movement, wisdom and experience are not considered important.


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    Questions in my mind.

    1. How are they going to determine who is let go? Does Calvinism come into the consideration?

    2. Will the people coming back be welcomed if they are not Calvinist?

    3. This news and how these members can be treated in light of CJ Mahaney and SG Louisville is rich.

    4. Is this a foreshadowing of the financial condition of the seminaries?

    5. How is the entire Calvinist mess play out in this? Did God foreordain this fiscal crisis? Honestly….if you’re a Calvinist its a perspective.


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    Eagle wrote:

    How are they going to determine who is let go? Does Calvinism come into the consideration?

    While I cannot give you stats, the understanding is that most career missionaries 50 and over would have missed the YRR Movement that gained steam in seminaries and are “less likely” to be Neo Cals. Most would be close in age to Mohler. But even that varies within the TULIP point system.

    Eagle wrote:

    How is the entire Calvinist mess play out in this? Did God foreordain this fiscal crisis? Honestly….if you’re a Calvinist its a perspective.

    I was thinking the same thing. God determined this to happen. (sigh)

    But this is no joke. A younger couple I know who left the field a few years back over losing their kid in a freak accident. They had only been there a few years when it happened. They could not reconcile that God with actual events.


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    Let me tell you where I am at. Unless the SBC IMB turns itself around financially and targets the truly unreached and impoverished people of this world, I would not give any money directly to the agency. Instead, I would find the missionaries who are serving the poor and unreached and fund them directly. As for church plants, I wouldn’t give a dime to a church plant in an area with wealthy people and a plethora of established churches. Put you money where you know it is used wisely.
    WELL, that’s what I am talking about. I had come to this conclusion several years ago and the individuals I have prayerfully supported are lay women that are called by God to minister the Gospel and care for the poor, have a long proven track record and bear much fruit. For me personally I am done with seminar graduates that spend more time on their computers in the field then with people. Donna


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    Donna wrote:

    I am done with seminary graduates that spend more time on their computers in the field than with people

    Amen! You have just described the typical young, restless and reformed pastor in my neck of the woods. Their interpersonal pastoral skills are not the best. They seem to care more about tweeting their buddies, than ministering to hurting people. Local coffee shops are full of such “ministers” tweeting their lives away, but seldom darken a hospital room to visit the sick. When it comes to funding missionaries, look for where God is working and join Him there with your financial support.


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    Correct me if this is wrong, but if I remember right, Acts29 churches are asked to give a percentage of their income to that Network — or is some percentage required? I believe SBC churches, are required to give at least something to the Cooperative Program … and are requested to participate in the annual special offering campaigns (Annie Armstrong, Lottie Moon). Would be interesting to look at Acts29 churches in the SBC to see how much they gave to those respective host network/convention, and to which one of the two they gave more.


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    Q wrote:

    Dee,
    It is good to see you use the word “unreached” instead of unchurched. Missions is first and foremost about reaching those who have not heard the gospel that saves. When I hear someone say they want to reach the unchurched I think they want to build a business and it usually is in a affluent area.

    Your name is Q. I don’t know if I want to hug you or tell you to get off my ship. 😉


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    Here is the latest post I got up. Its about CJ Mahaney resuming preaching at T4G.

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/09/19/has-god-foreordained-an-alleged-child-sex-abuse-cover-up-in-sovereign-grace-ministrieschurches-is-that-why-cj-mahaney-is-so-sacred/

    Next week there’s more atheist stuff I discovered, and doubt I want to pursue.


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    I don’t see it mentioned in the story above, but while the IMB plans to “voluntary retire” 600-800 people, the are still adding new missionaries :

    “IMB is sending approximately 300 new missionaries in 2015 and expects to send a comparable number in 2016.”

    This is from the article here : http://imb.org/updates/storyview-3489.aspx

    I don’t understand how getting rid of your older staff but bringing in new personnel helps solve your money problems. Perhaps it is not all about money?

    I’d be glad to hear the IMB explanation on this one buy I just haven’t seen one.


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    Is church planting (or the Baptist Ferengi plan of church acquisitions) in the United States, in upper middle class areas already served by other churches, causing money to be diverted from international missions?

    If so, it’s yet another parallel between modern American Christendom and the Cult of Hubbard.

    For those who aren’t familiar with Scientology (which might be everyone but Mirele and HUG), I’m referring to the Ideal Org scam, …er, uh, project. For the past decade or more, the Co$ has been hitting up members for donations to purchase and renovate historic buildings all over the country, refurbishing them with plush interiors and multimedia. These so-called “Ideal” Organizations then replace the functions of smaller and older orgs in those cities.

    The selling point to their membership is that these oh-so-wonderful buildings will attract the public to Scientology in droves. Naturally, it’s not working — the brand of the Co$ is so toxic, there wasn’t enough interest to keep the original orgs solvent, let alone these larger, fancier ones. So the only benefit to the Co$ is to increase its real estate holdings, which doesn’t help the individual members at all. In fact, the endless push to donate more and more to this boondoggle only diverts efforts from providing services and disseminating Hubbard’s teachings. Which is how even Hubbard said they should make money, not through lavish buildings or fundraising.

    I know it’s not an exact parallel, so I hope this isn’t too far off topic. Still, I have to wonder at the thinking behind the whole push for church planting by Neo-Calvinists (and others) in the U.S. Is it a conviction that they, and only they, have the correct theology? Or could they be consciously taking a page out of Miscavige’s playbook, in an effort to make money?

    Either way, I can’t see it as A Good Thing.


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    Max wrote:

    Donna wrote:
    I am done with seminary graduates that spend more time on their computers in the field than with people
    Amen! You have just described the typical young, restless and reformed pastor in my neck of the woods. Their interpersonal pastoral skills are not the best. They seem to care more about tweeting their buddies, than ministering to hurting people. Local coffee shops are full of such “ministers” tweeting their lives away, but seldom darken a hospital room to visit the sick. When it comes to funding missionaries, look for where God is working and join Him there with your financial support.

    Here, too, except that “interpersonal skills that focus on the plight of others are not developed/nonexistent. Interpersonal skills that focus on persuasion and manipulation are highly developed.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Eagle wrote:
    How are they going to determine who is let go? Does Calvinism come into the consideration?
    While I cannot give you stats, the understanding is that most career missionaries 50 and over would have missed the YRR Movement that gained steam in seminaries and are “less likely” to be Neo Cals. Most would be close in age to Mohler. But even that varies within the TULIP point system.
    Eagle wrote:
    How is the entire Calvinist mess play out in this? Did God foreordain this fiscal crisis? Honestly….if you’re a Calvinist its a perspective.
    I was thinking the same thing. God determined this to happen. (sigh)
    But this is no joke. A younger couple I know who left the field a few years back over losing their kid in a freak accident. They had only been there a few years when it happened. They could not reconcile that God with actual events.


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    “How is the entire Calvinist mess play out in this? Did God foreordain this fiscal crisis?”

    worst case scenario:
    financial crisis manufactured,
    800 missionaries ‘sent home’,
    crisis then resolved,
    brand new Calvinist missionaries sent out to replace the ones discarded

    this scenario only works for those looking for a conspiracy theory as to how this all came about, and ‘why’;
    I’m no fan of conspiracy theories, so I don’t buy this, but here it is because someone asked 🙂


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    If we interpret churches and church organizations as money-making machines (even if theoretically nonprofit), it strikes me that supporting overseas missionaries is almost always going to be a financial drain–as opposed to an investment which may or may not pay off in the future. However many hundreds of impoverished Third-World believers are attracted, they will be useless to the organization for anything except some limited PR purposes (in which case a hundred would be as effective as a thousand, marketing-wise). This might not apply to missionaries in relatively wealthy countries (I live in one) who may perhaps become a source of funds in the future. For that matter, it is entirely possible to get rich by fleecing the poor (ask Robert Tilton).

    To the extent that churches like this are forced, or inspired, to compete against one another for US customers, this will require the commitment of ever-increasing amounts of capital, which in turn discourages such extravagant diaconological flourishes as charity or missions.

    As an aside, if an “unreached” person is defined as someone who has never heard of Christianity and/or Jesus, where do you expect to find such ill-informed people? Or perhaps the idea is that they have to be formally offered the option of conversion, or have it explained to them in a certain way…? I realize that evangelical missionaries are sent to places like Russia and Latin America, which suggests certain limits to their recognition of other Christianities…


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    I am not a “business” person, but David Platt’s plan makes no sense to me.
    The IMB plans to send out about 300 new missionaries both this year and next year, yet they want to call the markers in on 600-800 experienced people NOW? It takes 1-2 years to train new missionaries, and it takes several more years for the newbies to gain trust and connections in their assigned areas.
    Somebody explain to me how this makes sense, if it does.

    BTW, SBC president Ronnie Floyd is into starting planter churches in North America, big time.


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    @ Brian:

    That doesn’t make any sense at all. They are simply turning over the staff from former to newer staff. What the hay?


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    Bill M wrote:

    Feel free to disagree, I give to individuals rather than large

    Great thoughts!


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    “Previous leaders knew these financial realities, and they put in place a plan to slowly reduce our mission force (through normal attrition and reduced appointments)”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    so, the solution was reducing missionaries….. no mention of reducing the salaries & benefits of the president, multiple vice presidents, advisors and all the jobs at the home office.

    complete disillusionment, here.


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    I am not a Calvinist, Mr. Platt is my brother in Jesus and I have heard enough of his
    sermons to know he has a deep concern to reach the lost. I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt on the above accusations made by previous letter writers unless I see the evidence. Missions of all denominations are having tough times financially.
    Much of the money is going to family life centers and sending teams of our own church members to do short term work at the expense of funding long term workers. We need to hit the reset button!


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    All,

    Here are some insightful articles from Baptist Pastor Wade Burleson’s blog about these issues. (Wade is the pastor from Enid, OK, who is The Wartburg Watch’s pastor on EChurch here on Sundays.)

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/09/a-platt-full-of-trouble-imbs-fiscal.html

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2015/09/paige-patterson-declares-war-against.html


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    “…we have been able to cover these costs through reserves and global property sales.”
    ++++++++++++++

    but apparently not by reducing top-heavy salaries & benefits.

    just curious… what kind of (relative) oath of poverty are missionaries required to take, and what are the salaries of the president, vice president, advisors? how many people are employed at the home office? what are their salaries like?

    memories of 8th grade science class fermaldehyde again…. unless i’m off track here, the whiff of entitlement & gluttony is sickly.


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    Why are so many church plants/acquisitions placed in areas in which there is a well off population base which are already served by other Bible believing churches?

    Because that’s where the MONEY is.

    Furtick Mansions, private jets, and boob jobs/plastic surgery for Pastor’s Wife costs $$$$$$$. “TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!”


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    Christiane wrote:

    “How is the entire Calvinist mess play out in this? Did God foreordain this fiscal crisis?”

    worst case scenario:
    financial crisis manufactured,
    800 missionaries ‘sent home’,
    crisis then resolved,
    brand new Calvinist missionaries sent out to replace the ones discarded

    Spreading the Word of Calvin.

    Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?


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    “they could be performing such vital services in underserved areas” = MEDICAL MISSIONS and improving the lives of people in these areas (i.e. fresh drinking water, etc.) and NOT planting SBC churches in these areas.

    “no question in my mind that Platt cares deeply about missions” = MAYBE. I just don’t know anymore Dee. I’ve been around the block a few times. The same block! My conclusion is that things are hardly ever what they appear. Platt might be legit. Zac Poonen says that when people ask him about particular preachers he always says that he doesn’t know and that he would have to live with them awhile. He says he can’t make a judgment based just on their pulpit performance. I agree.

    “The IMB is blessed” = MAYBE. MAYBE NOT. I would say they are “blessed” in the same way that Apple or Wal Mart is blessed.

    “David Platt admits that while he was pastor of the Church of Brook Hill, he did not financially prioritize the Cooperative Program. When Platt was pastor of the Church of Brook Hills, his church was not known for their donations to the Cooperative Program.” = This begs the question, Why? Why didn’t Platt want to sent his church’s money to this great organization doing great things in missions around the world? Asking the question simultaneously answers it. He knew it wasn’t such a great organization. He knew it was a waste of money. A colossal waste of money. By the way, there are plenty of large SBC churches who give nominal amounts to the CP. So why give at all? Well, the answer to that question lets the big cat out of the bag. I don’t know anything about Platt except he wrote a book. The book sold well. He became the head of an organization he didn’t believe in enough to support as a pastor and now he’s on the speaking circuit, T4G, etc. Just sayin’. Since the Deebs live in basketball country, “keep your eye on the ball.”

    “Why should church members care about a Baptist mission organization when many of them don’t even know they are Baptist?” = Ever wonder why these church planters like Furtick, Noble, etc. are very willing to use SBC money to plant their churches, very willing to send a little money to the CP to remain SBC, but then are ashamed to be known as Southern Baptist? I don’t like to credit these guys with much but I will give them this: they know there’s much to be ashamed of.

    “Let me tell you where I am at. Unless the SBC IMB turns itself around financially and targets the truly unreached and impoverished people of this world, I would not give any money directly to the agency. Instead, I would find the missionaries who are serving the poor and unreached and fund them directly. As for church plants, I wouldn’t give a dime to a church plant in an area with wealthy people and a plethora of established churches. Put you money where you know it is used wisely.” = AMEN and AMEN. Yes, there are a few doing good work I’m sure. I’m also sure that Donald Trump does a few good things and treats a few people with dignity. I wouldn’t contribute to Trump and I wouldn’t….

    Sorry for the long post… better stop :-). Thanks Deebs for doing what someone should have had the courage to do a long time ago.


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    Our family has been with the IMB for almost twenty years, but we’re not yet 50, so we don’t fall under Phase I’s VRI.

    We have had some of the same questions you all and others have had. It has been explained to us the appointing of 300 this year and 300 next year; this was one of our big questions!
    These are folks that have already been “hired/employed/guaranteed” work with the IMB; so it’s not new folks…these guys were/are already in the works to come. You’ll notice nothing has been said about appointments after 2017. We don’t know what all this means for 2017 and beyond.

    It’s funny that the CPM method is coming up now. We’ve seen that this has been mentioned very rarely in the last couple of years by our on-the-field leadership. We’ve asked our supervisor about this and why so little is being said anymore; either positive or negative. He said that after going back into areas to follow up and see how the CPM’s were doing; most were found to have disappeared (weren’t really CPM’s) or been absorbed into other Christian work. There were a few that were honest CPM’s but they were few and far between. So, while we’ve not seen much push towards CPM’s in the last couple of years, neither has anyone stepped up and told folks about the problems they’ve found. We only know because we asked above us.

    I think fussing about CPM methodology is a moot point. It’s not really a focus out here. Helping to start growing, healthy churches is the focus. (and we are in a country that supposedly had a number of CPM’s happening)

    Also, the staff that David P has brought on-board have a good bit of “real world” business experience. This is very encouraging to us! Do we like that folks are having to leave the field? No, but we think, finally, the IMB is working to be fiscally responsible.

    How will it effect us personally?
    I’m sure we’ll have friends who will take the VRI.
    I’m not sure about Phase 2 for us; the “voluntarily raise your hand and leave” option. We’re not feeling led to leave our place of work, but we’re trying to be open to whatever it is the G– is asking of us; no matter where that is…


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    One of the dangers of fiscal irresponsibility, which has gotten the IMB in the position they are today, is that you start accepting churches into your denomination without any concerns for doctinal distinctives. Churches such as Mahaney’s hold Charismatic doctrines while last time I checked Baptists were cessasionists.

    The pressing need for cash forces the SBC to overlook much.

    The next thing you know the SBC will have churches such as those pastored by Steven Furtick in their denomination… wait, they already do!


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    Deebs:

    A couple of decades ago, the SBC took the Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong offerings away from the WMU. The latter had been very successful in raising the funds, educating people in churches about missions, financial needs, etc. However, WMU was a relatively independent organization both nationally and in many churches. Of course, that meant that it was a target for control minded pastors and denominational execs. It was replaced in many churches with a “women’s ministry”, often under the direction of a paid woman, usually that wife of the pastor, and the emphasis moved away from supporting and educating about missions to more complimentarian femininity stuff. My mission loving family left the SBC about that time.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Correct me if this is wrong, but if I remember right, Acts29 churches are asked to give a percentage of their income to that Network

    In order to become a member of Acts 29 a church is required to enter into a covenant that requires, among other things, adherence to Calvinist soteriology, their brand of complementarianism (female subordination)and the payment of 1% of the church’s income to the “Acts 29 Catalyst Fund”. That fund is apparently a central fund controlled by Acts 29 headquarters. In addition member churches are obliged to support church planting initiatives with a further 9% of their income. The covenant is available on their website under “Plant a Church”.

    There may be some leeway on the obligations. The elders of my church claim to have some sort of side agreement with Acts 29 that apparently modifies the church’s obligations. As is to be expected in an Acts 29 environment we mere pew peons/potatoes are not permitted to know the content of that additional arrangement.


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    I thought there were just two key requirements to join with the Southern Baptist Convention, and so went searching. Here they are, from The Southern Baptist Convention: A Closer Look.

    A church typically aligns with the Southern Baptist Convention by formally declaring that it is a “missionary Baptist church” in “friendly cooperation” with the Convention and contributing to the mission causes of the Convention through one of our cooperating state conventions. (page 6)

    http://www.sbc.net/pdf/acloserlook.pdf

    This document (current as of October 2013) also has an infographic that details the Cooperative Program and where the funds are distributed. And, it talks about what makes an association/convention different from a denomination, some of the keys being about how local churches maintain their autonomy.

    Since the SBC is not a church, it cannot ordain or defrock ministers; nor does it maintain a list of “certified” ministers. Ministerial certification is the role and responsibility of each local church. (page 6)


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    Dee, was there a missionary purge by the IMB several years ago by way of a loyalty pledge?


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    Clay Crouch wrote:

    Dee, was there a missionary purge by the IMB several years ago by way of a loyalty pledge?

    They were required to sign the BFM2000. Some of my extended family who had been on the field 18 years, came home. They could not sign. While he was out in the bush working, his wife with an M.Div, was pastoring church. But that was verboten with the BFM2000, so they could not sign.

    There is one thing Paige Patterson and the Mohler forces agree upon wholeheartedly:
    Female Subordination.


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    Steve wrote:

    My conclusion is that things are hardly ever what they appear. Platt might be legit. Zac Poonen says that when people ask him about particular preachers he always says that he doesn’t know and that he would have to live with them awhile. He says he can’t make a judgment based just on their pulpit performance. I agree.

    Bingo. And worse, a lot of work goes into building and maintaining an image and then managing perception. (Working with them often gives it away)


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    Steve wrote:

    Why didn’t Platt want to sent his church’s money to this great organization doing great things in missions around the world? Asking the question simultaneously answers it. He knew it wasn’t such a great organization. He knew it was a waste of money. A colossal waste of money.

    I think with these guys it is more about spending that same money in ways that they will get the credit and glory. “See what we are doing”! Not to such a faceless endeavor as the IMB where you get no credit. And when it is a church where the pew sitters are not involved in such decisions as how the church spends money on mission endeavors, it is important to maintain a certain image. Especially a “Radical” one. (There have been some reluctant former Brooks Hills people very involved from the beginning who simply got very burned out on the give it all away Radical approach. Eventually, even Platt gave it up for six figures in corporate SBC)

    As to Platt thinking the IMB was a waste of money, I doubt he ever thought that deeply about the IMB at all while he was building his brand at Brook Hills, a very tony location.


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    Pretty good summary from my MBA friends.

    1. I’ve got pretty good calvinist radar. This isnt about Calvinism.
    2. IMB is suffering from the general malaise that has affected all mission sending agencies of this model, i.e., fully funded institutional support.
    3. Cumulative deficits should have been more realistically faced by previous management.
    4. Failure to adequately inform stakeholders, SBC members and churches, is clear and inexcusable.
    5. The mix of RIFs and new appointees is a valid consideration and should be revisited by management.
    6. Southern Baptists should have the number of overseas personnel that can be adequately supported. Cutting corners has put some mssys at risk. This is unacceptable.

    Hope you will continue to follow this. Thanks.


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    @ Donna:
    I totally agree about giving where the money is needed. Several years ago I also made this decision. We help out those in need wherever the need may arise. It may be a neighbor that is sick and dying. It might be a relative or a friend who is need. Or an organization that I hear about that needs money to support their ministry. This has been a big blessing to our family.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Missions is generally seen as involving “soul winning.”

    Thanks Brad for your insight in this regard. Considering the differences in soteriology between the veteran missionaries coming off the field (primarily non-Calvinist) and future replacement missionaries (possibly New Calvinist) … how do you see this impacting SBC’s efforts on global evangelism? I ask this because my observations on the reformed movement’s church planting endeavors in the U.S. (be it SBC, Acts29, SGM, others) is that these young pastors seem more interested in planting theology than planting churches. They would not be characterized as “soul winners.” Will we see that on foreign fields as well … more churches, but fewer salvations?


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    Abi Miah wrote:

    interpersonal skills that focus on the plight of others are not developed/nonexistent. Interpersonal skills that focus on persuasion and manipulation are highly developed

    Different spirits drive the respective development of those “gifts.” The latter skills you note are not fruit of the Holy Spirit.


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    Todd Wilhelm wrote:

    Churches such as Mahaney’s hold Charismatic doctrines

    Under new IMB rules instituted by Platt, missionary candidates who exercise charismatic worship and prayer practices would not be excluded for consideration.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Paige Patterson

    Uh-ohh.

    Lydia wrote:

    Female Subordination

    Well, not quite. If your initials are DP and you’re married to the president of the largest seminary of the largest protestant denomination in the world, and you have matching cowboy hats (among your vast collection of hats) with this president, and if you wear one of these hats at all times when you’re telling men, women, and children how to live their lives…. well, let’s just say you YOU RULE.

    Lydia wrote:

    credit and glory

    Do ya think?

    Lydia wrote:

    Radical”

    I never read the book. I’ve seen too many of these things in my many trips around the block. I figure if the Sermon on the Mount can’t convince me to be “RADICAL” then Platt’s book won’t either. And besides, I thought we were supposed to be radical and not advertise it (Matt. 6:3).


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    Burwell Stark wrote:

    Unfortunately, many promotions in the SBC are through nepotism or as the result of flattery and not because the person is the most qualified for the job.

    Yes, and those in higher lever positions are compensated quite well. I believe that an internal audit by an outside firm not connected to the SBC is in order but I doubt such transparency will not happen in the near future.


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    Burwell Stark wrote:

    Dave Ramsey and his “debt relief snowball

    This made me laugh. Ramsey has made a killing within the church environment.


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    Q wrote:

    That will not allow the lifestyle the planter is looking for.

    And this is why I believe that people should not trust the leaders of organizations to make monetary decisions for them. We are now giving the bulk of our money to groups and individuals that we know. We contribute enough money to our church to pay for our seats and the pastors.


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    @ Burwell Stark:
    Sorry, I just thought of this., of course they love Ramsey. He says tithing is mandatory even when you are bankrupt. So he’s hired and can continue to pay for his castle in Nashville. (Have you seen it?)


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    Bill M wrote:

    have a different take. I believe the fundraising process keeps people accountable and connected. The fundraising effort can also be viewed as the much needed grass roots exercise in promoting the cause.

    I believe you are convincing me! As of this moment, most of our money is going to those types of missionaries and groups. We get update letters and even visits on occasion. When we take on a missionary, we commit for life so long as the missionary continues on the straight and narrow.

    Think abut it. One long time friend gets $50/month from us. Over 25 years, that is $15,000.

    We only dropped one missionary who didn’t send us any notes or letters for over 4 years. When we dropped, she suddenly noted our absence.


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    Steve wrote:

    I thought we were supposed to be radical and not advertise it (Matt. 6:3)

    Young reformed pastors in my area would not be accused of humbly doing things unnoticed … it’s not a characteristic of the movement. They even tweet pictures of the food they eat and selfies with their favorite New Calvinist who’s-who icon!


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    Bill M wrote:

    I recall Milton Friedman’s hierarchy of spending, most efficient to least efficient (working from memory):
    spend your own money on yourself (you value the cost, you know the need)
    spend your own money on someone else (you value the cost)
    spend money from someone else on yourself (you know the need)
    spend money from someone else on someone else (you know little)

    This is excellent. I may use it in a post one day. I shall give you full credit for bringing it to my attention. I think TWW has some of the smartest, savviest reader around! Thank you.


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    dee wrote:

    smartest, savviest

    I may not be smart or savvy but I do know an infection when I see one. And I’ve seen one. Or two.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I began wondering if many Neo-Calvinists/Neo-Puritans went to global mission fields via the International Mission Board — or if they concentrated their efforts into funding and other resources via the North American Mission Board’s Nehemiah Program and later church planting efforts. I suspect it’s the latter.

    Me, too!
    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Missions is generally seen as involving “soul winning.” Some cross-cultural missions-minded friends (who are not Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan) wonder if those who emphasize leading people to Christ, and/or those promoting more indigenous/self-sustaining church planting movements, will be the ones cut by the IMB when it gets to that stage of their plans.

    Interesting thought.

    Due to our connection to the medical community, we know many doctors/nurses/dentists and other allowed health people who spend their time alleviating suffering in impoverished countries by providing care. We surgeon goes around the world correcting cleft pallets- since many of those children die from malnutrition since they cannot get enough food or fluids.

    Yes, he is a Christian. Yes the people hear the Gospel when they come to him. But, it is his expert care and love for the people which speaks the loudest.

    We know a number of health missionaries who will go to an ares with Ebola and risk their lives to bring comfort in suffering. These are the good guys (guys for a former Bostonian is gender neutral, btw).

    Brad, I will be contacting you sometime in this coming week. I am going to Florida for about 10 days and will be holed up in my brother in law/s beautiful vacation house on Sanibel Island. There I will have some peace and quiet, Lord willing, to catch up on backed up emails and a project for the blog.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I’m also not sure about the view of “redemptive suffering” and working for the Kingdom by Neo-Calvinists/Neo-Puritans

    An SBC reformed church plant near me stresses “suffering” to the weird point. It’s almost like they go around looking for ways to suffer! I think Scripture is clear that “if” suffering comes in the life of a believer, then we can depend on Christ to help us through it. I don’t see the emphasis placed on suffering as a necessary lifestyle for redemption, as do some in the reformed ranks. I suspect it has something to do with what Piper teaches on the subject, since they hang on his every word.


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    Dave A A wrote:

    At least Platt recognizes that the 600-800 are not just numbers on a page, but people around the world

    Yes. I deeply disagree with Platt on matter of theology but i do believe his heart is in the right place. I feel the same way about the comments on this blog. They are not comment but dear people with awesome ideas and shared pain. That is one of the reason that I am a bit discouraged that the blog has become more well known.

    My love is for people. I actually like to hear what people think about since I learn so much from them. I appreciate that you have stuck with us for so long. You are truly a TWW stalwart!

    I met with a woman from Raleigh who reads this blog on Thursday. She shared her life and thoughts with me over a good cup of coffee and bagel at Panera. I so enjoyed that time. I love to meet people and learn about them. Her life fascinated me and she had some great questions for me.

    Of course, the blog went down for a couple of hours when I was meeting with her. But, I smiled for the rest of the day. I get my energy and thoughts from all of you. I wish I could have coffee with all of you.

    So, I will continue to make people the priority even though I fail in handling all this hoopla well. Pray that things will settle down a bit so I can get away from “breaking stories” and get back to regular posts.


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    Max wrote:

    New Calvinists now head 7 of 11 SBC entities, including leading seminaries, the home mission agency, the foreign mission venture, and publishing house. Calvinization of the SBC is in full-swing, largely unnoticed by the apathetic millions of non-Calvinists in SBC membership.

    There is no question that you are correct. The SBC leadership is now Calvinist run. However, that has been going on for the last 10 years or so. And guess what has continued to happen and to accelerate during that time? People are deserting the new SBC in droves. Even baptisms are sharply down.

    The emphasis on strict church membership covenants, poorly applied church discipline, and theological dickering has something to do with this. I expect some to say that it would have happened anyway. They might be right. However, they have been in charge since the decline and this falls on them.

    Once again, I stress that people should give to the causes that are near and dear to their hearts. And God will provide for the SBC if they are following His guidance-you know sovereignty and all.


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    Steve wrote:

    Well, not quite. If your initials are DP and you’re married to the president of the largest seminary of the largest protestant denomination in the world, and you have matching cowboy hats (among your vast collection of hats) with this president, and if you wear one of these hats at all times when you’re telling men, women, and children how to live their lives…. well, let’s just say you YOU RULE.

    You mean the SBC’s very own version of Hyacinth Bucket. She once attended a midnight buffet at one of Saddam’s palaces with Yassar Arafat. (Is that still in her bio?)

    Anyway, Dorothy claims that all she does is “under the authority of her husband”. The magic words. Nevermind that Patterson demoted Hebrew Prof Sherry Klouda at SWBTS because a woman cannot teach a man Hebrew, as the bible plainly says. Right?

    Years before Mrs Criswell was teaching a mixed SS class of 300 men and women that was on the radio. Again, she was “under the authority” of her husband so it was OK.

    You cannot make this stuff up.


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    @ dee:

    For those who take a longer view of recent history, a lot of what we are seeing today is likely a result of the Conservative Resurgence in power grabbing. Mohler just narrowed the fight from a culture war to a war on free will which was another ruse for a power grab. But he has had a lot of outside help in recruiting and unifying followers from Mahaney, Driscoll, some Presbyterian groups, etc.

    Just as An Attorney mentioned what happened to the WMU, there has been a power grab for years. They could not abide by a group of women doing something very well and efficiently. They wanted the money.


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    An Attorney wrote:

    It was replaced in many churches with a “women’s ministry”, often under the direction of a paid woman, usually that wife of the pastor, and the emphasis moved away from supporting and educating about missions to more complimentarian femininity stuff.

    This is why I have nothing to do with the WMU anymore. At our current church and former church a few women participate, and their hearts are in the right place, but they have no idea what’s going on or what to do. They get together once a month to read a magazine and donate a little money. At our current church, the women get together once per year to sew pillowslip dresses for little girls in orphanages in Africa. I have two sewing machines, but I don’t participate. If the SBC does not completely absorb the WMU, they will destroy it. Adrian Rogers said as much over 25 years ago.

    Church planting seminars are directed towards men. Wives/women are considered to be the men’s support system, at best. My husband and I went to one of those seminars. They gave me a book entitled My Husaband Wants to Be a Church Planter … so what will that make me?. Aside from that, I was excluded from any participation.
    How encouraging is that?


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    Lydia wrote:

    This is not a good time to be over 50 anywhere unless you are rich, powerful and ruthless

    Let me make a prediction since I agree with you that those over 50 are not wanted in the SBC. This will prove to be the biggest mistake in their collective lives.

    As you know the Dones (those who are still Christians but done with the church of today) are rapidly increasing. Most of these Domes are older folks. They also happen to be the baby boomers. They are reaching an age when the kids are out of the house and they have more disposable income.

    But, they will not be giving it to the churches that sidelined them.

    I believe that the SBC and some of these other churches will begin to see donations decline over the next few years. The younger folks who are starting families or who are students have little money to give.

    I believe that we should continue to urge people to give money to the ministries- including parachurches and individuals- with which they have experience. Over time, this will add up. And since it involves the baby boomers, it could add up far more than they are anticipating.


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    Donna wrote:

    had come to this conclusion several years ago and the individuals I have prayerfully supported are lay women that are called by God to minister the Gospel and care for the poor, have a long proven track record and bear much fruit. For me personally I am done with seminar graduates that spend more time on their computers in the field then with peopl

    Good for you! I believe that you are the first in a coming onslaught of people who are *Done* with nonsense.


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    Max wrote:

    brad/futuristguy said: I’m also not sure about the view of “redemptive suffering” and working for the Kingdom by Neo-Calvinists/Neo-Puritans

    Max said: An SBC reformed church plant near me stresses “suffering” to the weird point. It’s almost like they go around looking for ways to suffer! I think Scripture is clear that “if” suffering comes in the life of a believer, then we can depend on Christ to help us through it. I don’t see the emphasis placed on suffering as a necessary lifestyle for redemption, as do some in the reformed ranks. I suspect it has something to do with what Piper teaches on the subject, since they hang on his every word.

    Sorry I didn’t explain what I meant by “redemptive suffering.” I don’t know that it’s used as a technical term in any theological perspective, but the gist of it that I’ve picked up by reading missions history and by talking with certain missionaries is this: willingness to accept hardship in circumstances for the sake of expanding the Kingdom. It wasn’t about personal mortification.

    Maybe it comes more out of the Moravian missions movement. Historically, things like missionaries who shipped their belongings in a coffin because they did not expect to return to their homeland. Early “bivocational” evangelists who moved to where they could ply their trades and on the side share the gospel among slave populations. Or George Mueller whose team only expressed their specific financial needs to God in prayer and saw them answered daily. Or Amy Carmichael and Hudson Taylor and Lottie Moon and others.

    More recently, it would be people who engage in missions in “closed” countries where religion or Christianity is outlawed. Serving in countries where there is significant civil unrest. Right now, I have “global go-be” friends who live in a truck-camper home on the road in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. Right now, they and a tribe of friends are driving around Serbia and on the way to Macedonia to be with Syrian refugees, cook simple meals to serve them, and sit and eat with them. Can you see Acts29ers doing things like this? Not exactly glamorous or risk-free to be this kind of person of peace who shows hospitality to the sojourners. These are the kinds of disciples who willingly take on hardship so that others might see the gospel lived out.

    Some of what you described sounds more like “reality-show self-victimization” to get rating points. Like the street preacher who “yells the gospel” at people, and then claims the negative responses they get [for their rude behavior] is “taking a hit for Jesus.” Or when we saw Mark Driscoll and his flock fly down to Haiti to “see the situation on the ground,” distribute a little luv, get some selfie photos and vids, and fly back to Seattle to talk about the devastation.


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    Max wrote:

    Burwell Stark wrote:
    I fully expect IMB replacement missionaries hitting the field in future years, if/when funding improves, will be of the reformed persuasion.

    The IMB is already sending only Calvinists now…..they know who is, and who isn’t…


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    I heard a friend say he believed( and he knows) the present IMB debt was out of the belief that ” Jesus is coming in our lifetime, we need to spend now…”
    They didn’t think they’d have to repay the debt.


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    dee wrote:

    As of this moment, most of our money is going to those types of missionaries and groups. We get update letters and even visits on occasion.

    We had one missionary couple in a South American country recently finish the translation they had been working on for 25 years. There was a big celebration in their community down there. We felt a part of their celebration even though we were thousands of miles away.


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    Max wrote:

    They even tweet pictures of the food they eat and selfies with their favorite New Calvinist who’s-who icon!

    and write about their perils while hiding/preaching in the bowels of their luxury hotel in Dubai . . . .


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    dee wrote:

    Yes, and those in higher lever positions are compensated quite well. I believe that an internal audit by an outside firm not connected to the SBC is in order but I doubt such transparency will not happen in the near future.

    Questions for someone in the know:

    Are religious non-profits not required to fully disclose (by outside independent audit) where the money goes?

    And if so, why not?


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    elastigirl wrote:

    memories of 8th grade science class fermaldehyde again…. unless i’m off track here, the whiff of entitlement & gluttony is sickly.

    Not off track at all elastigirl, if their overhead costs are bloated and out of sync with the rest of their operations… well… what else is there to say?


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    Steve wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Female Subordination

    Well, not quite. If your initials are DP and you’re married to the president of the largest seminary of the largest protestant denomination in the world, and you have matching cowboy hats (among your vast collection of hats) with this president, and if you wear one of these hats at all times when you’re telling men, women, and children how to live their lives…. well, let’s just say you YOU RULE.

    There can only be one Queen Bee in the Hive.


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    Max wrote:

    Steve wrote:
    I thought we were supposed to be radical and not advertise it (Matt. 6:3)
    Young reformed pastors in my area would not be accused of humbly doing things unnoticed … it’s not a characteristic of the movement. They even tweet pictures of the food they eat and selfies with their favorite New Calvinist who’s-who icon!

    Just like The HUMBLE One(TM) Himself.

    Complete with liveried Armorbearers blowing long trumpets before them to announce how HUMBLE(TM) they are.

    Isn’t it great when you are The Predestined Elect? God’s Speshul Pets with the Get-Out-of-Hell-Free Card signed and decreed before the foundation of the world?


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Not off track at all elastigirl, if their overhead costs are bloated and out of sync with the rest of their operations… well… what else is there to say?

    At which the standard procedure is to lay off more peons and put the money saved into more Fat Management Bonuses & Perks.
    “I’M AN M.B.A. AND…”


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      __

    “Snake In Da Grass?”

    hmmm…

    Being that David Platt is a confimed Calvinist, it is certain that he believes in regeneration before faith. 

    huh?

    So, for him to ‘question’ the salvation experience of fellow members,

    (and to get them to question as well) 

    of an SBC church, is a logical progression of his belief system.  

    We have seen this time and time again; questioning and getting others to doubt their salvation in Christ, due to a lack of identification with the five points of the TULIP Calvinist doctrinal theological system. 

    What?

      If you were to ask me, as to my observation of would pass as his acceptable form of a believer’s  salvation, David Platt would unalaterly embrace what would be contained within the five points of Calvinism.

    That being said, New Calvinists are big on local church plants; as each one will increase their leverage within the Sothern Baptist Conference. 

    With the takeover of the SBC nearing completion, Calvinist, not unlike David Platt, will find a way of reducing foreign missions in favor (SOP) of local church plants.

    (sadface)

    Might Wanna Watch For It, huh?

    ATB

    Sopy


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    K.D. wrote:

    I heard a friend say he believed (and he knows) the present IMB debt was out of the belief that ”Jesus is coming in our lifetime, we need to spend now…”
    They didn’t think they’d have to repay the debt.

    Like running up all your credit cards because The Rapture Is Soon?

    I remember that from the 1970s, i.e. The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and Rapture Scare of the Week. Where any news headline was analyzed “In Light of Bible Prophecy” with the whisper “Could this be… (whisper) The Rapture?”

    “ALL THE END TIME PROPHECIES ARE BEING FULFILLED EVEN AS WE SPEAK! ALL THE PROPHECIES BEFORE THE RAPTURE HAVE ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED! ANY MINUTE NOW… ANY MINUTE NOW… ANY MINUTE NOW…”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    I heard a friend say he believed (and he knows) the present IMB debt was out of the belief that ”Jesus is coming in our lifetime, we need to spend now…”
    They didn’t think they’d have to repay the debt.
    Like running up all your credit cards because The Rapture Is Soon?
    I remember that from the 1970s, i.e. The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and Rapture Scare of the Week. Where any news headline was analyzed “In Light of Bible Prophecy” with the whisper “Could this be… (whisper) The Rapture?”
    “ALL THE END TIME PROPHECIES ARE BEING FULFILLED EVEN AS WE SPEAK! ALL THE PROPHECIES BEFORE THE RAPTURE HAVE ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED! ANY MINUTE NOW… ANY MINUTE NOW… ANY MINUTE NOW…”

    You think I am kidding? I am not…bunch of these guys are convinced spend now, we won’t have to worry about it…


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    K.D. wrote:

    You think I am kidding? I am not…bunch of these guys are convinced spend now, we won’t have to worry about it…

    K.D. I’ve Been There.
    Gospel According to Hal Lindsay, Christians For Nuclear War, It’s All Gonna Burn, Any Minute Now, Any Minute Now, Any Minute Now… It’s No Joke. It’s Dead Serious.

    That Way Lies Madness.

    When The World Ends and It’s All Gonna Burn, don’t expect anyone to attempt great things or plan for the future (because there is no future and It’s All Gonna Burn).

    JMJ over at Christian Monist is a Physicians Assistant. He never went for the full med school or MD because It’s All Gonna Burn Any Minute Now; he just did the minimum for the PA and went straight into the Mission Field to Save Souls (WORK! FOR THE NIGHT IS COMING!) — until he burned out from all the Wretched Urgency.

    Another blogger (who I can’t remember) recounted how most all the student body at a local Bible College got married en masse (like something out of the Moonies) to beat this one Rapture Scare date. (“I DON’T WANNA DIE A VIRGIN!”)


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    Sopwith wrote:

    That being said, New Calvinists are big on local church plants; as each one will increase their leverage within the Sothern Baptist Conference.

    Like the Southern Slave States trying to get their Animate Property counted in full to maximize their population for purposes of maximum Congressional representation/clout? (That was the real reason for the “Three-Fifths Compromise” in the original US Constitution.)


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    Sopwith wrote:

    We have seen this time and time again; questioning and getting others to doubt their salvation in Christ, due to a lack of identification with the five points of the TULIP Calvinist doctrinal theological system.

    Zero-Sum Game.
    Where the only way to Prove To Myself that *I* am one of The Predestined Elect is to PROVE YOU’RE NOT.
    Once upon a time, the Proof *I* Am Elect was Loyalty to Calvin.
    Then it became Getting Rich (because that had to be God’s Blessing), the richer the better.
    Now it’s He Who Has The Most Perfectly Parsed, Really Truly Reformed Theology.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    Are religious non-profits not required to fully disclose (by outside independent audit) where the money goes?

    It is CORBAN.


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    K.D. wrote:

    Max wrote:
    Burwell Stark wrote:
    I fully expect IMB replacement missionaries hitting the field in future years, if/when funding improves, will be of the reformed persuasion.

    The IMB is already sending only Calvinists now…..they know who is, and who isn’t…

    Predestined to KNOW.

    There is no Christ, there is only CALVIN.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    You think I am kidding? I am not…bunch of these guys are convinced spend now, we won’t have to worry about it…
    K.D. I’ve Been There.
    Gospel According to Hal Lindsay, Christians For Nuclear War, It’s All Gonna Burn, Any Minute Now, Any Minute Now, Any Minute Now… It’s No Joke. It’s Dead Serious.
    That Way Lies Madness.
    When The World Ends and It’s All Gonna Burn, don’t expect anyone to attempt great things or plan for the future (because there is no future and It’s All Gonna Burn).
    JMJ over at Christian Monist is a Physicians Assistant. He never went for the full med school or MD because It’s All Gonna Burn Any Minute Now; he just did the minimum for the PA and went straight into the Mission Field to Save Souls (WORK! FOR THE NIGHT IS COMING!) — until he burned out from all the Wretched Urgency.
    Another blogger (who I can’t remember) recounted how most all the student body at a local Bible College got married en masse (like something out of the Moonies) to beat this one Rapture Scare date. (“I DON’T WANNA DIE A VIRGIN!”)

    Sorry, I apologize. I grew up being yelled at ” Jesus is coming next weekend!”
    Had a discussion with an friend on mine and he concluded ( on this subject) ” our great-great grandkids will be hearing that Jesus is coming next weekend.”


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    Bridget wrote:

    and write about their perils while hiding/preaching in the bowels of their luxury hotel in Dubai . . . .

    That is when I lost the last of any respect I had for Platt.


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    dee wrote:

    Lydia wrote:
    This is not a good time to be over 50 anywhere unless you are rich, powerful and ruthless
    Let me make a prediction since I agree with you that those over 50 are not wanted in the SBC. This will prove to be the biggest mistake in their collective lives.
    As you know the Dones (those who are still Christians but done with the church of today) are rapidly increasing. Most of these Domes are older folks. They also happen to be the baby boomers. They are reaching an age when the kids are out of the house and they have more disposable income.
    But, they will not be giving it to the churches that sidelined them.
    I believe that the SBC and some of these other churches will begin to see donations decline over the next few years. The younger folks who are starting families or who are students have little money to give.
    I believe that we should continue to urge people to give money to the ministries- including parachurches and individuals- with which they have experience. Over time, this will add up. And since it involves the baby boomers, it could add up far more than they are anticipating.

    It is why I quit going. I no longer felt welcome in either any church or the denomination. It was like the older folks are now just ” in the way.”
    The SBC is going to go into a ” death spiral” and with coffee shop pastors, they’ll be on Twitter blaming everyone for the spiral ….except themselves….


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    “taking a hit for Jesus.” Or when we saw Mark Driscoll and his flock fly down to Haiti to “see the situation on the ground,” distribute a little luv, get some selfie photos and vids, and fly back to Seattle to talk about the devastation.

    Yes, this is the very sort of “suffering” being expressed after these New Calvinists take short-term mission trips to unreached people groups (whose souls remain unreached after the mission team’s 2-week hit for Jesus). But selfies with the poor lost African villagers in “Calvin Is My Homeboy” t-shirts fly through cyberspace any way.

    Regarding “redemptive suffering,”, I thought you were referring to Catholicism’s spin on this … a doctrine that after one’s sins are forgiven, the individual’s suffering can reduce the penalty due for sin. Actually, as I think about reformed theology’s take on certain things, I see a lot of similarities with Roman Catholicism … like worshiping saints (Saint Piper, Saint Driscoll, Saint Keller, Saint Devers, etc., including SBC’s deity above all others, Saint Mohler).


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    K.D. wrote:

    heard a friend say he believed( and he knows) the present IMB debt was out of the belief that ” Jesus is coming in our lifetime, we need to spend now…”
    They didn’t think they’d have to repay the debt.

    Then why sell off the properties? Thing is, a lot of the property was bought in the 1950’s and worth quite a bit now. They simply have grown fat and lazy and were not managing of resources in a proper manner.

    One wag mentioned an empty mansion in London (kept for visits?) that at one time had a full time gardener and people keep asking but no one denies it. Homes in Korea/Taiwan bought in the late 50’s for missionaries are now worth a lot. Offices in some countries that are rarely used, etc. There have been whispers about the international travel budgets for high level and regional employees, etc.

    I do know that one regional guy flew to remote African to check the cupboards of my some missionary friends home to see if they had any alcohol and then to witness them sign the BFM but they could not sign. They had no history of drinking and of course in their tiny city, it would be no secret even if shipped over. :o)

    It really sounds like a sick culture at headquarters. The Trustees are worthless and toothless as they did not even vote on the retirement idea. They were told what was going to happen, too. Yet at great expense, they are brought in for the dog and pony show.

    There are some speculating that the only course is to shut Richmond down and move in with NAMB. NAMB had a ton of money to plant YRR churches but we cannot even get stats on that. The entire culture of the SBC is now about total secrecy.

    I agree they need thorough third party audit but that is not only expensive but they know it would mean their demise unless they somehow voted to keep it secret from the pew peons for 15 years like they did with the GCR. (which is still secret, btw)


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    Bridget wrote:

    write about their perils while hiding/preaching in the bowels of their luxury hotel in Dubai

    The only peril in Dubai is eating goat meat biryani … whew!


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    Lydia wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    heard a friend say he believed( and he knows) the present IMB debt was out of the belief that ” Jesus is coming in our lifetime, we need to spend now…”
    They didn’t think they’d have to repay the debt.
    Then why sell off the properties? Thing is, a lot of the property was bought in the 1950’s and worth quite a bit now. They simply have grown fat and lazy and were not managing of resources in a proper manner.
    One wag mentioned an empty mansion in London (kept for visits?) that at one time had a full time gardener and people keep asking but no one denies it. Homes in Korea/Taiwan bought in the late 50’s for missionaries are now worth a lot. Offices in some countries that are rarely used, etc. There have been whispers about the international travel budgets for high level and regional employees, etc.
    I do know that one regional guy flew to remote African to check the cupboards of my some missionary friends home to see if they had any alcohol and then to witness them sign the BFM but they could not sign. They had no history of drinking and of course in their tiny city, it would be no secret even if shipped over. :o)
    It really sounds like a sick culture at headquarters. The Trustees are worthless and toothless as they did not even vote on the retirement idea. They were told what was going to happen, too. Yet at great expense, they are brought in for the dog and pony show.
    There are some speculating that the only course is to shut Richmond down and move in with NAMB. NAMB had a ton of money to plant YRR churches but we cannot even get stats on that. The entire culture of the SBC is now about total secrecy.
    I agree they need thorough third party audit but that is not only expensive but they know it would mean their demise unless they somehow voted to keep it secret from the pew peons for 15 years like they did with the GCR. (which is still secret, btw)

    The debt was due…..and Jesus was not in…..you spend beyond your means and creditors come a knocking…it makes me wonder what the books really look like? And what was spent where? Are we just seeing the ” tip of the iceberg?”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Like running up all your credit cards because The Rapture Is Soon?

    There is also the “Our God is a generous God”. The implication is spend spend spend, God will provide. I usually hear this from pastor types on non-profit boards and groan inwardly.

    I’ve found God to be rather tight with money, he provides what we need. He has lots of money but is likely looking for a good investment. There are exceptions but for non-profits I believe if God doesn’t provide what we think we need we should re-adjust our needs or change what we’re doing.


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    There is a saying that a dangerous place to be is between a politician and a pot of money. I should amend this by adding pastors. If there is a reserve of money I’ve seen all too many not change their spending habits till the cash reserves are empty and debt appears. This includes raiding designated fund through creative labeling to hide what is going on.

    I’m not just saying the following for effect, I’ve come to think many believe it is a sin to end the year with a surplus.


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    Bill M wrote:

    here is also the “Our God is a generous God”. The implication is spend spend spend, God will provide. I usually hear this from pastor types on non-profit boards and groan inwardly.

    Something that is making me very angry is all the apologist who are saying that God will provide for the missionaries coming back. That thinking is so insulting I can hardly breathe. God most often works through HIS people. He just seems to not have that many anymore.

    So what if God doesn’t? Or perhaps they will say that God wanted them to be greeters at Walmart. I mean, you can basically put it all on God no matter what happens to someone. It is God’s will they are homeless. No, it was the IMB’s poor management.

    People tend to put it all on God because it sounds pious and gets them off the hook. I know of a mega church pastor who told a woman God would protect her (from her abuser) when he had body guards that walked with him through his own church!


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    I’ve been in Southern Baptist churches for about 20 out of the last 40 years — half my entire adult life. I’ve helped with SBC church planting and assessments, was in THE first wave of Nehemiah Project church planting interns, and worked for 11 years at an SBC seminary. Also, probably over a third of all my social media connections are people involved with the SBC.

    I’ve observed as the Conservative Resurgence took root and grew, as the Woman’s Missionary Union became increasingly marginalized, as their publishing arms ejected some editors who were considered some of the best in the industry — but simply weren’t SBCers, as various entities in the SBC were overtaken by Neo-Calvinists/Neo-Puritans.

    I’ve had my own run-ins with SBC employees and representatives where it was questionable whether their actions aligned with biblical ethics, where there was a not-exactly-secret grab for power, where people they should’ve seen as valuable colleagues in ministry, they treated like replaceable cogs in a machine instead.

    And now, the tipping-point question finally arises: How many aspects of a multifaceted association like the Southern Baptist Convention has to prove itself untrustworthy before people reject the whole as too toxic to connect with?

    This is the kind of decisional dilemma that fits what my favorite college professor posed in his course on Computers, Ethics, and Society. Dr. Satterthwait was one of the first people in the world to work on computer-assisted language translation, and thus a pioneer in these technologies. He was also a life-long Quaker and a conscientious objector during World War II, and so had a deep interest in issues of morality and ethics. One day he talked about “the fallacy of the beard.” Here’s the dilemma: If a man has a beard, and you pull out one hair a time from it, when does he no longer have a beard? And do you focus on counting the hairs til they are gone — or on the evil being perpetrated by the one inflicting the damage?

    If the SBC was at one time missionally engaged, highly trustworthy, and financially scrupulous — how many such elements can be removed or have marks against them before the entity as a whole has too many holes to be fixable?

    This is the kind of question that “Dones” have likely asked of their church situation, and the answer led them to leave. I expect that waves of people in the SBC will be asking this type of question, and will end up waving the SBC good-bye as they reach their limit for what constitutes “sufficiently trustworthy and safe to associate with.”


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    As somewhat of a sidenote but still relevant: The last of the U.S. Boomers — those born 1946 through 1964 — can retire with full Social Security benefits in 2031, at age 67. If transfer of organizational leadership to next generations has not been accomplished by 2032 (and Boomers have been notorious for maintaining our death-grip on leadership/power), those entities are going to be in a whole lot of trouble … if they even survive.

    At some point, those men who pioneered and engineered the SBC Conservative Resurgence will all be gone from the scene. Those who facilitated the advancement of Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan views, likewise. Who will be left?

    According to research in 2007 from Ed Stetzer and LifeWay, only 17% of Southern Baptist Convention pastors were then under the age of 40.

    So, in looking at the apparent slow-motion implosion of the SBC, it would be important to divide the remaining population down into age/generation categories and also to connect those categories with overall theological perspective. Where will the SBC be, come 2032? What theology(s) will be the most dominant then?

    This post might be of interest along those lines of the legacy older generations leave and who will be there to catch the pass …

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2008/06/28/paradigm-transition-do-we-have-just-25-years-to-do-this/


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    99th !!


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    AND….

    ONE HUNDREDTH !!


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    As somewhat of a sidenote but still relevant: The last of the U.S. Boomers — those born 1946 through 1964 — can retire with full Social Security benefits in 2031, at age 67. If transfer of organizational leadership to next generations has not been accomplished by 2032 (and Boomers have been notorious for maintaining our death-grip on leadership/power), those entities are going to be in a whole lot of trouble … if they even survive.
    At some point, those men who pioneered and engineered the SBC Conservative Resurgence will all be gone from the scene. Those who facilitated the advancement of Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan views, likewise. Who will be left?
    According to research in 2007 from Ed Stetzer and LifeWay, only 17% of Southern Baptist Convention pastors were then under the age of 40.
    So, in looking at the apparent slow-motion implosion of the SBC, it would be important to divide the remaining population down into age/generation categories and also to connect those categories with overall theological perspective. Where will the SBC be, come 2032? What theology(s) will be the most dominant then?
    This post might be of interest along those lines of the legacy older generations leave and who will be there to catch the pass …
    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2008/06/28/paradigm-transition-do-we-have-just-25-years-to-do-this/

    I wonder, at some point if there will be an attempt to ” kick-out” SBC churches not being lead/pastored by Neo-Calvinists/ Neo-Puritans?


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    AND….
    ONE HUNDREDTH !!

    Nick, posts like this make me sad we didn’t look you up when we were in Scotland this past May. ( We were on a churn and burn schedule….see as much as we can…may not be back that way….however, we are looking at Scotland again in ’17.)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    There can only be one Queen Bee in the Hive.

    The rest are drones.


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    K.D. wrote:

    I wonder, at some point if there will be an attempt to ” kick-out” SBC churches not being lead/pastored by Neo-Calvinists/ Neo-Puritans?

    If I understood correctly from what I recall hearing plus the two requirements to associate with the SBC [(1) join state/regional association and (2) give financially to support cooperative endeavors], I suspect they’d have to change the official rules and/or doctrinal statements about that in order to kick out churches not lead by Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritanist pastors.

    On the rules part, they could make it more difficult for non Neo’s to join and have more pressure for them to leave by ensuring that state/regional associations are all Neo-run.

    One the doctrinal part, that could be tough to get around, especially since a hallmark of SBC has been local church autonomy. It would seem that the national Convention couldn’t dictate such a specific change in doctrinal statements such that only Neo’s would be allowed. But then, there have been significant alterations in the SBC doctrinal statements and they have been used before for political/power purposes …


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    I wonder, at some point if there will be an attempt to ” kick-out” SBC churches not being lead/pastored by Neo-Calvinists/ Neo-Puritans?
    If I understood correctly from what I recall hearing plus the two requirements to associate with the SBC [(1) join state/regional association and (2) give financially to support cooperative endeavors], I suspect they’d have to change the official rules and/or doctrinal statements about that in order to kick out churches not lead by Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritanist pastors.
    On the rules part, they could make it more difficult for non Neo’s to join and have more pressure for them to leave by ensuring that state/regional associations are all Neo-run.
    One the doctrinal part, that could be tough to get around, especially since a hallmark of SBC has been local church autonomy. It would seem that the national Convention couldn’t dictate such a specific change in doctrinal statements such that only Neo’s would be allowed. But then, there have been significant alterations in the SBC doctrinal statements and they have been used before for political/power purposes …

    I know….but think about it….would you be shocked if they tried to change the rules?


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    K.D. wrote:

    I know….but think about it….would you be shocked if they tried to change the rules?

    After all the slow-motion shenanigans over decades?

    No.

    But how to change the rules/doctrines in a way that makes it look like “traditional” Baptist polity etc etc.? That’s the teaser in it all.


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    @ dee:
    Yes, I’ve seen it (pictures) and I’m not a fan of his program for the reasons you stated in your second quote: his method is only about increasing the giving to a church so that they can spend it on themselves (buildings, lots of staff, high salary for the senior pastor, etc.). For practical and Biblical financial management, I think Crown is/was a far better system.

    To your point about am outside audit: a buddy of mine did that for his MBA from Carolina. He got permission from Rankin to audit certain aspects of the IMB budget. He made some good recommendations but nothing ever came of it (this was in Rankin’s last year’s when he was being sidelined).


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    @ dee:
    I forgot to say this about Ramsey’s house: I have no problems with people making money, just be honest about it up front. Let the church know you’re making a killing of their debt.

    Also, speaking of mansions, that was the reason I stopped listening to James MacDonald. I saw a blurb about it shortly after he bought it and then I heard him talking on the radio about how hard his year was. I remember thinking: this guy can’t relate to me. He’s complaining about some trivial difficulty and going home to his North Chicago mansion. That was the last day I ever listened to him. Years later I look back and thank the Lord for giving me an insight into his character before it all became public.


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    As a Calvinist (Reformed) myself, I believe the right thing for SBC Calvinists to do if they cannot make peace in their convention is to graciously leave and start a new Calvinsist/Reformed Baptist convention for the sake of broader unity/catholicity in the church. I say this for a couple of reasons:

    1)When a group within a denomination or in the baptist case convention comes to a new set of convictions not shared by the larger denomination it is highly disruptive. Those who feel unwelcome change foisted on them are bound to hold resentments that disturb the peace of the communion.

    2)The new group (i.e. Calvinistic baptists) will have a better chance to form cohesion and a new identity when they aren’t fighting denominational battles that tear at the peace of the old communion.

    The reasons for not doing this are obvious, large denoms/conventions wield vaster resources than a new group, and the institutional power of seminaries are where the battles are most pitched. To start anew presents many challenges, but the honorable thing to do would be to begin new institutions and structures rather than shanghai old ones. As a Presbyterian, I know that my forebearers struggled mightily when liberals in positions of power and influence refused to leave and start a new communion, but rather jettisoned those who were more historically aligned with our Presbyterian statements of faith, forcing the conservatives to start new denominations that were very thin on resources during the Great Depression – Reformed pastors/scholars who wanted to remain true to their convictions were forced to give up pensions and health plans and many had to minister in relative poverty. Had the liberals been truer to their convictions and had more honor, they would have graciously left as it was they who had changed not those who maintained confessional fidelity.

    This happened with New England congregationalists in the 19th century as well, when the Unitarians gained power in the congregational conventions in that time. The saying among the more orthodox party was:

    We kept the faith and they kept the furniture.”

    I understand the impulse to reform and transform denominational bodies, sometimes this happens for the better, sometimes for the worse. However, when things become factitious as it has in the SBC – it is incumbent on the parties initiating change to do the right thing and peacefully leave to pursue their reforms independently. The Calvinists (starting with Mohler) haven’t done this and as a result have done great damage to not only those who disagree with them, but to their own Calvinist convictions as they are perceived as combatative and disinterested in fair play. It is better to be respected for your convictions even when others disagree than despised because you are forcing changes upon them that they are unwilling to accept.


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    It looks like Carl Trueman got some criticism from gender complementarians from his previous commentary on John Piper‘s weird “should women work as police officers” advice, so he wrote this:

    On Gender Differences and Evangelical Complementarianism
    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2015/09/on-gender-differences-and-evangelical-complementarianism

    Snippet by Trueman:

    And that is another part of the problem with evangelical complementarianism: It is in danger of becoming simply a reactionary movement, defining itself over against feminism, and apparently seeing any criticism of the party line as a fundamental betrayal of the cause.

    My understanding of Trueman’s position is that he is, in a sense, a complementarian, in that he does not support women being preachers in church (as he stated on one page), but he otherwise (to me) comes across like a Christian mutualist or egalitarian, and he finds some of the gender micro-managing by the John Piper complementarian types to be laughable, strange, and unbiblical.


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    K.D. wrote:

    I know….but think about it….would you be shocked if they tried to change the rules?

    I would not be shocked if they try this, but it would greatly damage the SBC, and ruin much of what the Calvinists in the SBC claim they stand for. Baptist polity demands that they do not employ these kind of tactics, but pride and vanity might win the day on this.


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    Burwell Stark wrote:

    I forgot to say this about Ramsey’s house:

    Speaking of Dave Ramsey.

    Spies, Cash, and Fear: Inside Christian Money Guru Dave Ramsey’s Social Media Witch Hunt
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/29/spies-cash-and-fear-inside-christian-money-guru-dave-ramsey-s-social-media-witch-hunt.html


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    @ Jed Paschall:

    I was reared in mainline churches until college, so I was aware of the implosion going on as social gospelists and others gained dominance, and the others were forced to wrestle with attempting to influence/conserve what had been, or leave if they deemed it irredeemable.

    Agreed, it would be more honorable for the dissenting group to start their own institutions from the ground up instead of using insidious parasitic tactics like the cuckoo — planting their egg in another bird’s nest, which has the other birds feed the hatchling, and when the cuckoo chick grows larger quicker it scoots the other bird’s chicks out of the nest.

    Part of the deflection in the SBC about this is to note how “Reformed” or “Calvinist” Baptists have always been a part of the the Baptist stream in America.

    However, this Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritanist dominionism seems another thing entirely …


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    Daisy wrote:

    My understanding of Trueman’s position is that he is, in a sense, a complementarian, in that he does not support women being preachers in church (as he stated on one page), but he otherwise (to me) comes across like a Christian mutualist or egalitarian, and he finds some of the gender micro-managing by the John Piper complementarian types to be laughable, strange, and unbiblical.

    The problem is the rise of the “Complimentarian” category as a whole, as well as the undue influence of organizations like CBMW and sympathetic extra-denominational bodies like TGC and T4G. The fact of the matter is not having women serve in the office of elder/pastor has been par for the course in not only Reformed groups, but amongst broadly conservative evangelicals far before the rise of CBMW.

    I am not a “complimentarian” in any meaningful sense other than I think it is important for my Reformed communion the PCA and other communions we have established ecumenical ties with such as the North American Presbyterian and Reformed Churches (NAPARC) to simply maintain our historic stances on the issues of who can serve as elder. I am not against ordaining women in the office of deacon as there is clear NT precedent for doing so. But, I am against baptizing all of the cultural baggage that CBMW’s brand of complimentarianism entails.

    CBMW complimentarianism is an albatross around the neck of far too many otherwise conservative women who might be working mothers, or who hold significant roles of secular leadership and their families. Nothing in scripture restricts women to the role of homemaker, or slavish submission to their husbands.

    Frankly, outside of the Reformed body I belong to and those we have close ecclesiastical ties with the issue of women’s ordination doesn’t bother me in the slightest. If other communions wish to go that route based on their convictions, they are completely free to do so. They cause far less trouble among conservative Reformed folks than CBMW, TGC, and T4G.


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    XianJaneway wrote:

    Your name is Q. I don’t know if I want to hug you or tell you to get off my ship.

    Hug!


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    However, this Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritanist dominionism seems another thing entirely …

    EXACTLY!!!!!

    I know and respect many Reformed Baptists (those who hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession), they are quite prevalent here in SoCal. But, they are not part of the SBC, and share little in common with the New-Calvinists in the SBC. They rarely make the news, and they are not fomenting controversy in their communions or in the culture, and take Paul’s command to “be at peace with all men” as much as possible while being true to their convictions.

    The meme that Calvinist convictions are part of the baptist heritage is partly true, but it is the crack that the New-Calvinists in the SBC are trying to use as an excuse to ram the semi-truck of their convictions into the SBC – it is disingenuous. Besides, they aren’t willing to cop to the fact that the convictions they hold to are more akin to cafeteria calvinism, and look little like what older Reformed Baptists and their modern counterparts actually believe. New Calvinism is… well New, and they seem totally unwilling to recognize this. They would likely cause as many serious problems in a historically Reformed Baptist convention as they are in the SBC due to the novelty of their beliefs and practices.


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    @ Max:

    “An SBC reformed church plant near me stresses “suffering” to the weird point. It’s almost like they go around looking for ways to suffer! I think Scripture is clear that “if” suffering comes in the life of a believer, then we can depend on Christ to help us through it. I don’t see the emphasis placed on suffering as a necessary lifestyle for redemption,…”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    one of my maxim’s these days: life is too short for misery on purpose.

    that’s not to nix sacrificing for the greater good (serving and helping those in need), which, aside from being the right thing to do, is usually a source of joy and peace.

    but it’s possible to life on principle to a horrendous fault… misery for onself, one’s family/friends, & whoever else one’s principles influenced. and on the last day of one’s life, it is its own reward. and where was the happiness?


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    Jed Paschall wrote:

    The Calvinists (starting with Mohler) haven’t done this and as a result have done great damage to not only those who disagree with them, but to their own Calvinist convictions as they are perceived as combatative and disinterested in fair play. It is better to be respected for your convictions even when others disagree than despised because you are forcing changes upon them that they are unwilling to accept.

    I’m going to be honest here – these Calvinists look like they are slow to listen, quick to speak, & quick to become angry. They take the top places at feasts & love to pray so people can hear them. They seem to have no interest in generosity towards a lost world, preferring to push & powerhouse other Christians into accepting their theology than introduce Jesus to anyone else. And love? Where is the love? I sincerely hope we see a huge turning away from this form of ‘knowing all mysteries’ as people mature. It’s just hideous.


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    @ Jed Paschall:
    I was reared in mainline churches until college, so I was aware of the implosion going on as social gospelists and others gained dominance, and the others were forced to wrestle with attempting to influence/conserve what had been, or leave if they deemed it irredeemable.
    Agreed, it would be more honorable for the dissenting group to start their own institutions from the ground up instead of using insidious parasitic tactics like the cuckoo — planting their egg in another bird’s nest, which has the other birds feed the hatchling, and when the cuckoo chick grows larger quicker it scoots the other bird’s chicks out of the nest.
    Part of the deflection in the SBC about this is to note how “Reformed” or “Calvinist” Baptists have always been a part of the the Baptist stream in America.
    However, this Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritanist dominionism seems another thing entirely …

    There has always been Calvinists in the SBC….and they were welcomed with open arms. The present group of YRR in the SBC have treated so many members in both the leadership and the pew with such distain, I wonder how many of the ” Dones” are still on the rolls of the SBC churches and in typical SBC fashion, they remain there…( what is it? Only 1/4 to 1/3 of the Southern Baptists even go to church any more? The rest are on their for appearance?)
    Once again, the SBC is in a slow implosion. Brad, at my age, I doubt I will be here in 25 years to see what becomes of the denomination….but, you never know…


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    @ Beakerj:

    Sad, but I agree. These are a far cry from the Calvinist Baptists and Presbyterians of the 19th Century who were an integral part of the missions movements of that century. Not everything that was part of that movement was good, but they certainly were deeply affected by the lostness of humanity and sought to do something about that. This spirit seems like it is swallowed up entirely by the new-calvinists thirst for conflict and controversy and coddling their beloved institutions.


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    @ Daisy:
    I read that post as well. Thank you for sharing it with the readers.


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    Burwell Stark wrote:

    To your point about am outside audit: a buddy of mine did that for his MBA from Carolina. He got permission from Rankin to audit certain aspects of the IMB budget. He made some good recommendations but nothing ever came of it

    Now that doesn’t surprise me.


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    Burwell Stark wrote:

    Let the church know you’re making a killing of their debt.

    I actually used to like to listen to Clark Howard. He was a thoughtful guy with a pleasant demeanor and he wasn’t part of the Christian financial counselor crowd.


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    @ Jed Paschall:
    I only wish that there was a way for everyone to agree to disagree and get along. I would have no problem worshiping with Calvinists so long as they respected me for my thoughtful disagreement. The central argument is over What came first: the chicken or the egg? The most important part of that argument is that “it came.”


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    @ dee:

    Agreed. In my opinion one of the hardest if not thee hardest lesson to learn in this life is learning how to live and let live.


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    Jed Paschall wrote:

    CBMW complimentarianism is an albatross around the neck of far too many otherwise conservative women who might be working mothers, or who hold significant roles of secular leadership and their families. Nothing in scripture restricts women to the role of homemaker, or slavish submission to their husbands.

    Don’t forget the women who never marry, who never have children, and divorced and widowed ladies. They have no space in gender complementarianism, either. 🙂


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    @ dee:
    Agreed. In my opinion one of the hardest if not thee hardest lesson to learn in this life is learning how to live and let live.

    It took me turning 50 before I started to say….” Just how does that affect me? “


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    dee wrote:

    I believe that the SBC and some of these other churches will begin to see donations decline over the next few years. The younger folks who are starting families or who are students have little money to give.

    The economy has never really improved for a lot of people and many young people graduating from university are saddled with enormous debt loads that have to be paid down as they’re non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. They’re not going to be able to get into a mortgage, what makes church leaderthink they’re going to want to belong to their organizations, with expenses rivaling that of country club dues? This is even beyond the observation that a lot of young people aren’t church members because they’re very tired of the culture war from over the pulpit. They’re just flat broke.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Gospel According to Hal Lindsay, Christians For Nuclear War, It’s All Gonna Burn, Any Minute Now, Any Minute Now, Any Minute Now… It’s No Joke. It’s Dead Serious.
    That Way Lies Madness.

    You’re restimulating engrams. Stop that!

    But seriously, you’re right. I’ve been hearing rapture fever for the last 40 years. This month it’s the Shemitah and four blood moons and Yom Kippur and bad stuff’s gonna happen and and and…

    I still remember what this Lutheran pastor told me all these years ago: “Jesus is going to come back for you at the moment of your death.” That was his answer for all the rapture crazy.


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    dee wrote:

    I only wish that there was a way for everyone to agree to disagree and get along. I would have no problem worshiping with Calvinists so long as they respected me for my thoughtful disagreement. The central argument is over What came first: the chicken or the egg? The most important part of that argument is that “it came.”

    I wish so, too. However, the major problem, as I see it, is that the “triumph of the will to win” is so deeply embedded in the DNA of any/all paradigms built on black-or-white / win-lose thinking, that it really cannot be overcome by a group en masse, but only with an individual when he or she comes to a point of readiness to hear how that view inherently and continually inflicts damage. And such individuals arise from the midst of such rigid paradigms as a surprise.

    And on that concept of such paradigms and God’s providential surprises therein, I find some intriguing ideas in Finite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and Possibility, by James Carse. His thesis is that finite games are competitive, with winners and losers at the end. However, infinite games are meant to be open-ended, doing all that is possible to keep all players engaged and moving forward.

    If we viewed life and relationships as designed by God to be an “infinite game,” how would that change the way we relate with ourselves and others? Without condoning moral or social failure, how could we better extend grace to ourselves and others, yet still challenge all to continue our forward pursuit of Christlikeness?

    Those of perfectionistic paradigms have no inherent interest in that kind of tolerance-as-grace or slow-growth dynamic. Either you are all-in, or need to be out.

    I do not expect organizations built on such paradigms to end well … though perhaps some individuals will eventually sojourn out of them to a more gracious and less punitive paradigm … because the Law and dictatorial pedagogues bring no one to maturity.


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    Daisy wrote:

    It looks like Carl Trueman got some criticism from gender complementarians from his previous commentary on John Piper‘s weird “should women work as police officers” advice, so he wrote this:

    Yeah, apparently Denny Burk got onto Trueman. Seriously, though, none of them think through the implications of their beliefs in the real world–probably because none of them have had to live and work in the real world. Let’s just say that Piper’s “women really can’t have authority” shtick would not go over well in my too big to fail organization.


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    dee wrote:

    I only wish that there was a way for everyone to agree to disagree and get along.

    Two years ago Frank Page, SBC Executive Committee President, chaired a “Calvinism Committtee” to study the concerns of mainline Southern Baptists regarding the rapid proliferation of Calvinism in the denomination. The committee, which included both Calvinists and non-Calvinists (including Al Mohler) issued a report essentially exhorting SBC membership to agree to disagree, go along to get along, an make room for theological diversity under SBC’s big tent. They called for unity and cooperation to accomplish the Great Commission together. A noble exhortation, but …

    Problem is, Calvinization of the denomination has continued at break-neck speed, with New Calvinists now heading most SBC entities and its aggressive church-planting program is staffed predominantly with young, restless and reformed pastors. “New” Calvinism is not the same animal as “Old” Calvinism, which has been embedded in SBC from its founding. As a 60+ year Southern Baptist, I have been associated with old guard Calvinists who have been civil in their theological differences. As TWW and other watchblogs attest through reports and reader experiences, this new reformation is authoritarian, deceptive, arrogant, militant, and assorted other negative descriptors. The YRR are passionate and convinced that the rest of Christendom has lost the gospel and they have been called forth for such a time as this to restore truth to the church. It’s hard for me to agree to disagree on God’s plan of salvation for a lost world … it’s not the same Great Commission to reach ALL men everywhere that I have known.


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    Jed Paschall wrote:

    As a Calvinist (Reformed) myself, I believe the right thing for SBC Calvinists to do if they cannot make peace in their convention is to graciously leave and start a new Calvinist/Reformed Baptist convention for the sake of broader unity/catholicity in the church.

    Amen Jed! That would be the right thing to do. However, reforming a great denomination allows you to capture its seminaries, mission agencies, thousands of churches, publishing house, and other assets around the globe … than start fresh with your own thing. New Calvinism’s stealth, deception, and arrogant determination allows for a much easier row to hoe … and it’s working.

    “It is evident that many more Churches need to be divided. How many there are that hold together, and yet do no good, for the simple reason that they are not sufficiently agreed. They do not think alike, nor feel alike … and while this is so, they never can work together. Unless they can be brought to such a change of views and feelings as will unite them, they are only a hindrance to each other and to the work of God. In many cases they see and feel that this is so, and yet they keep together, conscientiously, for fear that a division should dishonor religion, when in fact the division that now exists may be making religion a by-word and a reproach. Far better would it be if they would agree to divide amicably, like Abraham and Lot. ‘If thou will take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, I will go to the left.’ Let them separate, and each party work in its own way; and they may both enjoy the blessing.” (Charles G. Finney, Revivals of Religion)


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    K.D. wrote:

    It took me turning 50 before I started to say….” Just how does that affect me? “

    I’m in my early 40s and have arrived there. It’s caused me to shift some of my views on politics, faith, and other things. 🙂


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    f we viewed life and relationships as designed by God to be an “infinite game,” how would that change the way we relate with ourselves and others? Without condoning moral or social failure, how could we better extend grace to ourselves and others, yet still challenge all to continue our forward pursuit of Christlikeness?

    This is so good. I like the hope focus, too. As in understanding that everything we do here and now, will or will not transfer to the redeemed earth we are on now. It totally changes ones perspective.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Or perhaps they will say that God wanted them to be greeters at Walmart. I mean, you can basically put it all on God no matter what happens to someone. “It is God’s will they are homeless.” No, it was the IMB’s poor management.

    “Destiny, chance, fate, fortune—they’re all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures.”
    —Gerrard of the Weatherlight (a character from my favourite trading card game)


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    dictatorial pedagogues bring no one to maturity

    You save the best for last


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    Daisy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    It took me turning 50 before I started to say….” Just how does that affect me? “
    I’m in my early 40s and have arrived there. It’s caused me to shift some of my views on politics, faith, and other things.

    You know Daisy, I look back now and I was upset over basically….” Nothing.”


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    I absolutely agree with Dee about the wisdom of a mission board. My wife was a missionary for 10 years before we were married, and I know how when she was on sabbatical she spent her entire time visiting the churches that supported her, meeting with people and explaining what she was doing. She (and the other missionaries I knew) had no time off. Her “time of rest” was actually filled with an incredible amount of work.
    Now she did write many many newsletters, letting people know what she was doing. But it was none the less expected that when she came back from overseas she would spend every minute driving across the country and meeting with people who funded her.
    I am just like others in wanting to meet with missionaries when they are home on leave, especially those I have been funding consistently. But I also want them to have a chance to recharge. IMB allowed for that, and I thought it was a good idea.
    It may very well be the case that they did too good a job of interposing themselves between the missionaries and the churches, though I didn’t find that a problem in my old baptist church.
    However it is clear that the financial problems they were facing were not being explained in any kind of detail. It will be interesting to see how the church responds now they have been made aware.


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    Max wrote:

    this new reformation is authoritarian, deceptive, arrogant, militant, and assorted other negative descriptors.

    Max, I feel for y’all in the SBC. Unfortunately, with my experience, it is not only the Baptist Calvinists who gloriously exhibit these traits. Is this the Gospel that they speak of?


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    Daisy wrote:

    Jed Paschall wrote:
    CBMW complimentarianism is an albatross around the neck of far too many otherwise conservative women who might be working mothers, or who hold significant roles of secular leadership and their families. Nothing in scripture restricts women to the role of homemaker, or slavish submission to their husbands.

    Don’t forget the women who never marry, who never have children, and divorced and widowed ladies. They have no space in gender complementarianism, either.

    Why Daisy, the comps get downright creative in imposing comp doctrine on unmarried women! My former pastors/elders at my 9Marxist church did have *a plan* for the unmarried women, of all ages, in the church: To submit and obey your pastors/elders. They critiqued everything from my home’s décor (had to get rid of an Italian cross they didn’t like), to my dress (an elder actually lectured me for riding my bike to church in the summer time with a dress on; I pointed out to him that I had bike shorts on underneath the dress, thank you); the elders had a meeting about my bringing bbq beef brisket to a church potluck and told me that they had decided I was *too lavish*; wanted to choose my women friends; called and gave me unsolicited advice about how to *conduct* myself at my new job (when they heard I got another one) as though I couldn’t figure that one out after years of working! Even married women were subjected to their insufferable *advice** including what they fed their children!


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    Harley you wrote:
    I totally agree about giving where the money is needed. Several years ago I also made this decision. We help out those in need wherever the need may arise. It may be a neighbor that is sick and dying. It might be a relative or a friend who is need. Or an organization that I hear about that needs money to support their ministry. This has been a big blessing to our family.
    Over the years a shift has taken place causing me to focus more on including the simple truth of the Gospel message with the help and making sure the real Gospel message is being preached by those I support. I too am sick of Calvinism changing the meaning of feeding the poor and caring for orphans and widows to discussing strange doctrine in coffee houses, using church money to support such nonsense. I cling to Colossians 2:8 BEWARE lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of men, according to the basic principles of the world and not according to Christ.


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    @ Jed Paschall:

    I’ve written here and there over the years that it seemed in time the distinctions between the old and new Calvinists would become more obvious and more awkward. Even at the peak of my contentment within Mars Hill I thought Piper was over-rated and said a lot of indefensibly stupid things and I say that as a confirmed Calvinist who’s a supralapsarian to boot. But for the decade I was at Mars Hill I was also working for the Salvation Army as my day job, so I think now that I had an advantage of having some ecumenical experience. While I was at a self-described complementarian Calvinist Mars Hill I was working for an egalitarian and Arminian Salvation Army. Between that and having friends who are Catholic and relatives who are Eastern Orthodox I certainly differ with them on a variety of things but if we take the “post-Christian culture” seriously then what we have in common in terms of a Trinitarian confession and faith in Christ risen from the dead seems more important points in common than American WASP nominalism.


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    Max wrote:

    The YRR are passionate and convinced that the rest of Christendom has lost the gospel and they have been called forth for such a time as this to restore truth to the church.

    Preaching the Word of Calvin.

    Aside: In Game of Thrones, when the Faith Militant began its reign of terror in Kings’ Landing (originally as Queen Cersei’s personal Enforcers before they turned on her), my roomie referred to them specifically as “CALVINIST Thugs.” When I asked him “Why describe them as Calvinist?”, he replied it was because of the level of thuggery plus the Puritan asceticism/Moral Superiority Enforcement attitude that they were The One TRUE Faith. That’s the rep “Calvinism” has among the goyim.


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    @ mirele:
    amillenialism began to look positively glorious to me once a Pentecostal youth pastor explained what it was to me and other people in the college-age Sunday school class twenty years ago. I shifted to amillenial partial preterism not long after hearing of it, then discovered that that view and historicism were far more common in church history than premillennial futurist ideas. I’ve come to have a very, very low view of millenarian views in the last ten years. The premils basically use the theological grid as a rationale for their left or right leaning paranoia, while the postmils use that theological grid for whatever triumphalist cultural engineering they want. Sometimes a handful of positives may come of it, like the Social Gospel … but the bad seems to outweigh the good in the long run. Jeffrey Burton Russell has a fine little book on Order & Dissent in the Middle Ages where he highlights how the Church rejected millenarianism across the board. Sure, there was the impetus to put down eschatological theories used to promote anti-clerical sentiments from people seeking to gain political and economic power, but an advantage to institutional church life is people keep records long enough to find out how wrong premillennial and postmillennial predictions kept being century after century. 🙂


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    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I wish so, too. However, the major problem, as I see it, is that the “triumph of the will to win” is so deeply embedded in the DNA of any/all paradigms built on black-or-white / win-lose thinking…

    I find your turn of phrase “TRIUMPH OF THE WILL to win” interesting.

    Especially when the RL pulp villain who is the subject of Triumph of the Will (Triumph des Willens) himself wrote in his Fuehrerbefehl for Operation Barbarossa “The strongest is always right! The winner is never asked if he won fairly, all that matters is He Has WON!”


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    mirele wrote:

    But seriously, you’re right. I’ve been hearing rapture fever for the last 40 years. This month it’s the Shemitah and four blood moons and Yom Kippur and bad stuff’s gonna happen and and and…

    High Holy Days on the Jewish calendar seem to be a favorite time.

    The Rapture Scare that freaked me out the absolute worst was the Rosh Hashanah Rapture Scare of 1975, later found to have originated with the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Everything calculated in precise detail, down to the minute (sunset in Jerusalem on the Rosh Hashanah falling in 1975, whose Hebrew-letter number translated to “Messiah”), everything Proven From SCRIPTURE and today’s (now-forgotten) headlines.

    I still remember what this Lutheran pastor told me all these years ago: “Jesus is going to come back for you at the moment of your death.” That was his answer for all the rapture crazy.

    That’s also what they told me in RCIA (Catholic adult catechism class).

    P.S. Restimulating engrams? HAIL XENU!


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    Daisy wrote:

    Don’t forget the women who never marry, who never have children, and divorced and widowed ladies. They have no space in gender complementarianism, either. 🙂

    Just as they did in PAGAN societies at the time of the Apostles, where extended family/clan connections and Dynasty traced through the Male Line was EVERYTHING.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I find your turn of phrase “TRIUMPH OF THE WILL to win” interesting.

    My usage was an intentional to insert a semi-veiled Godwinian reference via Leni into the mix … expected you’d catch it, HUG, and then take it farther which you did. 🙂


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    XianJaneway wrote:

    Your name is Q. I don’t know if I want to hug you or tell you to get off my ship.

    Over Labor Day I attended a My Little Pony convention where one of the events was a Q&A with John DeLancie. Questions ranged from the serious to the silly to "WT#?" (ed.) material. The one that had DeLancie speechless (and looking like he was trying hard to maintain) was "If this is a Q&A, where's A?"


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    Serving Kids In Japan wrote:

    For the past decade or more, the Co$ has been hitting up members for donations to purchase and renovate historic buildings all over the country, refurbishing them with plush interiors and multimedia. These so-called “Ideal” Organizations then replace the functions of smaller and older orgs in those cities.

    i.e. Scientology Megachurches.
    Clam-rustling, Bling, and all.

    (Note: “Clam” is a nickname for “Scientologist”, as (Cue South Park flashing subitle “THIS IS WHAT SCIENTOLOGISTS ACTUALLY BELIEVE”) Elron taught that humans evolved from a species of clam called the “Weeper” or “Boohoo”. Hence “Clam” for “Scientologist” and “Clamspeak” for “Sekrit Scientology Jargon”. HAIL XENU!)


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    I am not a “business” person, but David Platt’s plan makes no sense to me.
    The IMB plans to send out about 300 new missionaries both this year and next year, yet they want to call the markers in on 600-800 experienced people NOW? It takes 1-2 years to train new missionaries, and it takes several more years for the newbies to gain trust and connections in their assigned areas.
    Somebody explain to me how this makes sense, if it does.

    BTW, SBC president Ronnie Floyd is into starting planter churches in North America, big time.

    I think I know the reasoning behind this, but this is not necesarily the way things work out in practice (Hence the need for seeing the financial statement before donating:
    Most experienced pastors & missionaries receive an automatic pay raise each year. (Or every 2 years, the principle is the same). If a new person is sent, that person will be paid considerably less than the one who is (voluntarily or no )retiring. The savings of the collective salaries is, therefore, less than the monies paid to new people. The problem in this case is, that nobody knows where the money is, & the New Guys aren’t telling…..
    It is also, IMO, the lousy way to treat faithful longtime servants of God. But it does happen, in good organizations & in bad ones. Not to mention, that some New Guys are totally untrustworthy; at the least, they are untested…….


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    Beakerj wrote:

    They seem to have no interest in generosity towards a lost world, preferring to push & powerhouse other Christians into accepting their theology than introduce Jesus to anyone else. And love? Where is the love?

    And there is the heart of the matter– Their hearts are hard (if, indeed, they stil have hearts).


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    mirele wrote:

    I still remember what this Lutheran pastor told me all these years ago: “Jesus is going to come back for you at the moment of your death.” That was his answer for all the rapture crazy.

    🙂
    To which, the Methodist Amen Corner says, “Amen, & amen”.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I wish so, too. However, the major problem, as I see it, is that the “triumph of the will to win” is so deeply embedded in the DNA of any/all paradigms built on black-or-white / win-lose thinking…

    I find your turn of phrase “TRIUMPH OF THE WILL to win” interesting.

    Especially when the RL pulp villain who is the subject of Triumph of the Will (Triumph des Willens) himself wrote in his Fuehrerbefehl for Operation Barbarossa “The strongest is always right! The winner is never asked if he won fairly, all that matters is He Has WON!”

    That thought struck me, too, HUG.

  156. Pingback: David Platt Announces SBC International Mission Board in Dire Straits - Thou Art The Man


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    BTW, SBC president Ronnie Floyd is into starting planter churches in North America, big time.

    Because churches they plant in Ghana do not send money to the CP.


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    Will M wrote:

    it is not only the Baptist Calvinists who gloriously exhibit these traits

    Granted Will, there are Baptist non-Calvinists of various ages who are plagued with these fleshly characteristics … but I’ve never seen such a high percentage of one generation with such behavior! The Millennial New Calvinists are such an arrogant mischievous bunch!


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I wish DeLancie had recorded his narration of Stravinsky’s Oedipus Rex years ago. He did a great job with the piece in Seattle about ten or fifteen years ago.


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    dee wrote:

    Q wrote:
    When I hear someone say they want to reach the unchurched I think they want to build a business and it usually is in a affluent area.
    Great comment.

    When I hear someone say they want to be a missionary or nowadays, a global partner, I wonder about their motives.

    I have served twice on the mission field (Europe and W. Africa) and now I am a tentmaker in Asia. Although I am not SBC, we have worked with SBC missionaries because everyone works together to some degree, especially in Africa.

    Our observation was that about 50% of them (of all mission groups, not just SBC) belonged there and the rest were there for the wrong reasons. It was blatantly obvious. The other 50% was highly effective in their mission.


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    dee wrote:

    I actually like to hear what people think about since I learn so much from them.

    This is so right on. There is a subtext that is denied in religious circles that appears with sagesse on TWW. Truth to power. Informs. Jesus broke through the status quo with the subtext of the religious leaders of his time and he paid with his mortal life.

    I used to read The Daily Beast looking forward to the comment sections where much came to light. When the Malaysian plane went down, many aviation experts weighed in by posting comments with their expertise – beyond what the journalists were writing. Now TDB no longer has comments and that element is hugely missing.

    TWW brings much to light, such as the guys with bowler hats in Moscow. Cosplay among posers. It puts it all into perspective. Subtext. What we see from a distance is the tip of the iceberg and then someone in the vicinity posts the close-up from visual top to the unscene bottom of the sea. The massive structure below the obvious. Priceless.


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    @ dee:

    More and more women in general* are dropping out of church, especially single women.

    Also, anyone over 30 years of age is leaving.

    I already noticed in my childless, single 30s that churches (especially Southern Baptist and evangelical churches) are far too nuclear-family fixated.

    I’ve only just been seeing blog posts the last three or so years by 40-something married- with- kids couples who say they are just now waking up to how churches are fixated on 20- something- married- with young- kids- at- home demographics.

    I already noticed that back in my mid 30s, but it takes the married- with- kids couples much longer to catch on to how nuclear- family- focused churches are.

    The 40 somethings say now that their kids are in college, no longer at home, their church has no place for them, nothing for them to do.

    All of the pro-nuclear family and male hierarchy (gender complementarian) stuff is alienating women and anyone else who doesn’t fit in.
    The Nuclear Family Male Hierarchy stuff leaves women sitting in the pews with absolutely nothing to do, even if they want to contribute i some way.

    *Why are Working Women Starting to Unplug from Their Churches? by Sandra Crawford Williamson
    http://tifwe.org/working-women-unplugging-from-church/


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Especially when the RL pulp villain who is the subject of Triumph of the Will (Triumph des Willens) himself wrote in his Fuehrerbefehl for Operation Barbarossa

    Even now there are those in the MIC (military industrial complex) who think that we can succeed where Napoleon’s Grande Armee and the German Wehrmacht failed.
    God forbid those men to ever set that kind of madness into motion.


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    @ dee:

    “I wish I could have coffee with all of you.”
    +++++++++++++

    i would love nothing more. Come to California.


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    @ elastigirl:

    or, i could come to Raleigh….. or… you said Sanibel island for the next several days? i’ll bring a sleeping bag, a beach towel, and a bag of groceries.


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    Max wrote:

    there are Baptist non-Calvinists of various ages who are plagued with these fleshly characteristics … but I’ve never seen such a high percentage of one generation with such behavior! The Millennial New Calvinists are such an arrogant mischievous bunch!

    Must be something Predestined in the water.
    Or in the Institutes.


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    zooey111 wrote:

    If a new person is sent, that person will be paid considerably less than the one who is (voluntarily or no )retiring. The savings of the collective salaries is, therefore, less than the monies paid to new people. The problem in this case is, that nobody knows where the money is, & the New Guys aren’t telling…..

    Money saved that can be rolled into Furtick Mansions and private jets for Top Management.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    BTW, SBC president Ronnie Floyd is into starting planter churches in North America, big time.

    Because that’s where the Big Money is.


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    JYJames wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Our observation was that about 50% of them (of all mission groups, not just SBC) belonged there and the rest were there for the wrong reasons. It was blatantly obvious. The other 50% was highly effective in their mission.

    I went to seminary with a couple of guys who went to the mission field for a few years….it was like they went to work their way into bigger churches or farther up the denominational food-chain when they came back to America.
    Is this what you found?


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    @ K.D.:
    We did not see the USA side. However, on location, the incompetent ones:
    1. were patronizing toward the nationals;
    2. did not train nationals, but assumed a white superior stance;
    3. assimilated little to none of the local culture (like food)
    4. set up commissaries so they could be completely “American” overseas;
    5. their wives did NOT want to be there, hence marriage woes;
    6. their unhappy neglected children were at drug saturated boarding schools;
    7. etc.


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    JYJames wrote:

    @ K.D.:
    We did not see the USA side. However, on location, the incompetent ones:
    1. were patronizing toward the nationals;
    2. did not train nationals, but assumed a white superior stance;
    3. assimilated little to none of the local culture (like food)
    4. set up commissaries so they could be completely “American” overseas;
    5. their wives did NOT want to be there, hence marriage woes;
    6. their unhappy neglected children were at drug saturated boarding schools;
    7. etc.

    Why do none of these things shock or surprise me?


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    Great observation. Could the recalling of missionaries also be theologically motivated and not just a financial issue (the deficit certainly provides a convenient pretext if so motivated)? This trend in the change in leadership has the potential to cause some serious rifts in the SBC.


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    Going overseas is like the Masters degree you need to get paid more in churches back in America or have better job opportunities, I think. Half of the people I met in these contexts, as you say JYJames, and as KD you related, are I am pretty sure there for the wrong motives. I would guess about 50% as well. It really does feel like resume building and jockeying for position. You can tell by the way they talk about God (impersonally or not at all), exaggerate their suffering or living conditions, and use the stories of the people around them overseas (the more suffering the better) as leverage for you to think they are trustworthy and legit by default of those people’s suffering. That’s not how real maturity or the pursuit of wisdom works, sorry! It was like jewelry they wear and flash around to decorate their Christian outfits. Overseas missions are like designer jeans, you were supposed to spot the high quality disciples by the “country” brand they wore. It always felt off to me. Further, resumes in general are icky in Christian contexts. Everyone can make themselves sound good on paper in any context with resumes, but it has a worse factor in the Christian ministry realm. You can be a huge tool of a man or manipulative, uncaring woman and have lived amongst a tribe in Africa for five years. I want to ask them: So what’s your soul like, how are you to people? Are you even self-aware? Etc. Going overseas may something about you as a person favorably, or it may not at all. What else do you have to bring?

    I always wonder about “50%” of these marriages overseas, and in America as well. The women just all seem so depressed and miserable, as well as the kids.


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    It's all sad, and sickening. I joined the IMB family when Keith Parks was president, and now…I'm one of the 600-800. Lydia, one of those who commented here must have overheard me say that I guess I'll go back to the states, and apply to be a greeter at Walmart. Who wants to hire a 60 year old (ed.) music and youth pastor? Let alone an ESL teacher? I know…it's God's will. Right?


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    Should be “…60 year old…”@ Jack:


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    Jack wrote:

    It’s all sad, and sickening. I joined the IMB family when Keith Parks was president, and now…I’m one of the 600-800. Lydia, one of those who commented here must have overheard me say that I guess I’ll go back to the states, and apply to be a greeter at Walmart. Who wants to hire a 60 year old (ed.) music and youth pastor? Let alone an ESL teacher? I know…it’s God’s will. Right?

    http://assets.baptiststandard.com/archived/2001/10_22/pages/imb_rankin.html Article from 2001: "Rankin defends IMB description against Parks"


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    @ Nancy2: Thanks for the link. Keith Parks' words are proving to be prophetic:

    "… emphasis on so-called church planting movements, has diminished the role of missionaries trained for such specialties as medicine, agriculture and education, Parks charged. "Everybody's got to be a church planter now.""

    Career non-Calvinist missionary specialists will be replaced by New Calvinist church planters when IMB's financial dust settles. Is the goal to plant churches or reformed theology on foreign fields?


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    @ WenatcheeTheHatchet:
    Well put. I think you hit on an important point of catholicity that is lost on many Protestant (esp. Reformed) groups – the Body of Christ is larger than our own communions and inludes people we don’t always agree with.

    One of the best ways to have balance in this is to have contact and fellowship outside our own tribe. Sometimes the better part of wisdom is not to attempt to ‘reform’ those different than us but to acknowledge them as full participants in the Body of Christ, and that our commonality in Christ is far more important than our differences.


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    @ Jed Paschall:

    “…outside our own tribe. ….those different than us but to acknowledge them as full participants in the Body of Christ”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++

    just how lonely do we expect heaven to be, anyway?? does anyone honestly believe that having one’s name written in the lamb’s book of life is contingent on one and only one extremely narrow interpretation of ancient texts?

    i doubt even the most narrow-minded neo cal prik would say yes to that. isn’t it patently clear that the point of any spiritual exclusivity is consolidation of power and money because of terror of losing it, and fear of change?

    why would intelligent, sensitive human beings accommodate this in themselves, and in their associates?


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    @ Nancy2:
    From the 2001 article:
    ..”on after his election to lead the FMB in 1980, Parks said, he began to realize that the emerging group of SBC leaders had a different opinion than he did about what was the “glue” that held Southern Baptists together.
    ___He cited conversations with one of those SBC presidents who argued the convention had been united historically around doctrine, not missions. Parks, in turn, argued that early SBC leaders found their unity in missions.
    ___The argument for doctrinal agreement eventually won out over missions cooperation, Parks said. ”

    That pretty much sums up how it has evolved. Doctrine over people.


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    lydia wrote:

    the emerging group of SBC leaders had a different opinion than he did about what was the “glue” that held Southern Baptists together.

    Lydia, it should be clear by now to all astute observers that SBC’s “Conservative Resurgence” was really a “Calvinist Resurgence.” Evangelism and missions will be much different going forward, now that the emerging have emerged. We will see if the glue sticks.


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    lydia wrote:

    That pretty much sums up how it has evolved. Doctrine over people.

    Max wrote:

    Lydia, it should be clear by now to all astute observers that SBC’s “Conservative Resurgence” was really a “Calvinist Resurgence.” Evangelism and missions will be much different going forward, now that the emerging have emerged. We will see if the glue sticks.

    The predecessor to the SBC (Triennial Convention) was mission oriented. It was developed specifically to pool funds for mission work. If you want to get down to brass tacks, the SBC really was doctrinally based — the “doctrine” of “slaves obey your masters”. The issue of slavery was the primary reason the SBC split from the TC —- the TC refused to allow missionaries to take their slaves with them on missions.
    “Glue”??? Is the SBC going to come completely unglued, or is the glue going to boil down to signing church covenants and obeying elders, subjugating women, TULIP/BACON, etc? I think the “doctrine” is evolving, and has been for over 40 years.


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    __

    HUG,

    Well spoken!

    ATB

    Sopy


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    f you want to get down to brass tacks, the SBC really was doctrinally based — the “doctrine” of “slaves obey your masters”. The issue of slavery was the primary reason the SBC split from the TC —- the TC refused to allow missionaries to take their slaves with them on missions.

    That is what I was thinking. They believed God foreordained slavery. That is why the whole SBC “Founders” movement comeback focus over the last 30 years never made sense to me. The precursor to the YRR. Did they not connect the dots?


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    elastigirl wrote:

    just how lonely do we expect heaven to be, anyway?? does anyone honestly believe that having one’s name written in the lamb’s book of life is contingent on one and only one extremely narrow interpretation of ancient texts?

    In their view, yes. In their view, the Scriptures militate for it and demand it, there is no third option, it was decided by sovereign decree even prior to the creation of the Earth.


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    K.D. wrote:

    I went to seminary with a couple of guys who went to the mission field for a few years….it was like they went to work their way into bigger churches or farther up the denominational food-chain when they came back to America.

    Ticket-punching.
    Like a lot of career officers in Vietnam getting the combat experience signoff for future promotions.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    In their view, yes. In their view, the Scriptures militate for it and demand it, there is no third option, it was decided by sovereign decree even prior to the creation of the Earth.

    The same Predestined sovereign decree that included THEIR Get-Out-of-Hell-Free card naming them as The Truly Elect, God’s Speshul Pets.


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    Bill M wrote:

    brad/futuristguy wrote:
    dictatorial pedagogues bring no one to maturity
    You save the best for last

    Yes, succinctly said, Brad.


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    Nancy2 wrote:

    the SBC really was doctrinally based — the “doctrine” of “slaves obey your masters”

    Nancy2, you’re quite right about the initial roots of the Southern Baptist Convention. The denomination was founded prior to the Civil War by slave-holding Baptist Calvinists, including church leaders who supported this racial sin. When the Civil War broke out, they were convinced that the sovereign Calvinist God was on their side. However, as early Southern victories turned to defeat they realized things differently. Following the Civil War, Calvinism as the SBC theological default began to wane and the majority belief and practice of Southern Baptists transitioned to a clear non-Calvinist stance … the only one I have known for the past 60+ years. And then along comes New Calvinism …


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    Even wrote:

    Overseas missions are like designer jeans, you were supposed to spot the high quality disciples by the “country” brand they wore.

    Which countries are considered better / more glamorous? The poorest or most war-torn ones…?


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    K.D. wrote:

    I went to seminary with a couple of guys who went to the mission field for a few years….it was like they went to work their way into bigger churches or farther up the denominational food-chain when they came back to America.

    And others went to seminary and then to the mission field and were disgusted by what they found in both spheres because they thought this really is all about spreading the Good News and creating disciples of Jesus Christ and not an ideology or climbing the ladder in the SBC. The ones I’m talking about have since entered the business world which at least is up front about their purpose.

    I think you asked upthread about whether financial disclosure is required. Non-profits that are affiliated with churches are not required to file Form 990 which would disclose the salaries of the higher executives. This is a hot-button issue with me, since ISTM that the churches and religious non-profits should have higher standards than the world. Many nonprofits, like 9Marks, operate behind a church shield. You will never know how much money Dever and his lieutenants make nor will you ever know the side deals which have been made if there are any. I use 9Marks merely as an example, and they are by no means the outlier. This is more common than most people realize.


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    Zla’od wrote:

    Which countries are considered better / more glamorous? The poorest or most war-torn ones…?

    Well, Missionary to “Darkest Africa” used to be top of the list for bragging rights…


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    JYJames wrote:

    @ K.D.:
    We did not see the USA side. However, on location, the incompetent ones:
    1. were patronizing toward the nationals;
    2. did not train nationals, but assumed a white superior stance;
    3. assimilated little to none of the local culture (like food)
    4. set up commissaries so they could be completely “American” overseas;

    Like Victorian Colonial Englishmen among the Wogs, “Sahib” and “Bwana”, living exactly as if they were back in London regardless of local conditions.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    I went to seminary with a couple of guys who went to the mission field for a few years….it was like they went to work their way into bigger churches or farther up the denominational food-chain when they came back to America.
    And others went to seminary and then to the mission field and were disgusted by what they found in both spheres because they thought this really is all about spreading the Good News and creating disciples of Jesus Christ and not an ideology or climbing the ladder in the SBC. The ones I’m talking about have since entered the business world which at least is up front about their purpose.

    I was disgusted with the guys here, and left church staff to teach high school. Another can of worms, but in many ways, high school kids are more honest than most Baptist clergy….and so glad God put me in high school. I do not think you know.


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    K.D. wrote:

    I do not think you know.

    I know way too much that I never wanted to know. 🙂


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    Gram3 wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    I do not think you know.
    I know way too much that I never wanted to know.

    As do I…:(.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Like Victorian Colonial Englishmen among the Wogs

    Ha! What a picture!


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    I received an email from a long time former SBC’er who lives near Brook Hills church who told me that the people they know who go there had no idea they were SBC until Platt got the IMB job. :o)


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    Lydia wrote:

    I received an email from a long time former SBC’er who lives near Brook Hills church who told me that the people they know who go there had no idea they were SBC until Platt got the IMB job. :o)

    And others do not care one way or the other. The most charitable interpretation, IMO, for Platt’s elevation is that the IMB trustees realize that their current model of missions support is unsustainable. Platt’s model at Brook Hills is a third way which has some advantages just as the society model and the traditional SBC model have advantages and disadvantages.

    What eludes the thinkers at Voices is that there are people who have very reasonable concerns about both the plan *and* the process. But because Voices sees everything through the grid of a political Calvinist/non-Calvinist contest, they dismiss or are scornful of reasonable questions which would ultimately serve the interest of spreading the Good News. They assume that to question Platt is to question the Mission. Everything becomes political and so nothing can be evaluated with rigor.

    There is a loss of trust in thinking pewpeons because of the way this financial meltdown was handled before Platt was ever involved *and* in the way Platt and the trustees have handled it since he took the helm. But the deep thinkers at Voices cannot understand this because they have never run an enterprise in the real world where ideas and plans are ruthlessly tested and must be adjusted accordingly. The math and the plan do not make sense from the perspective of maximizing the effectiveness of the IMB efforts, or at least I have not seen any explanation of how this plan might do that. They are spending OPM and playing with the lives of real people but they are the gurus so they must not be questioned. What happens when a net 600-800 do not take the VRI or write that blank check to God?


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    Lydia wrote:

    Brook Hills

    SBC’s New Calvinist churches have such cool names! Reformed church plants in my area are named LifePoint, Freshwater, The Journey, South Creek, and assorted SomethingRiver, SomethingHills, SomethingValley, etc. Most members don’t have a clue that they are affiliated with SBC, unless they happen across it in a corner of their website.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    They are spending OPM and playing with the lives of real people but they are the gurus so they must not be questioned. What happens when a net 600-800 do not take the VRI or write that blank check to God?

    They covered that problem with a Godfather solution. Take the deal you cannot refuse or it will be much worse for you. They made that clear but also call it voluntary. They have not exhausted their resources or their assets. They do not have a hiring freeze. The very people who have been involved with the problem for years are in charge of the solution.

    It is ironic that in a financial crisis, they keep the inexperienced Platt but get rid of the experienced missionaries– for which the IMB exists. It exists for long term missions. This makes absolutely no sense. And it certainly makes no Jesus sense.

    I would never expect the shills at Voices to allow any questioning of leaders in a real or analytical way. Voices exists for the party line. Negative truths are not allowed. They are praisng Platt for “dealing with the problem”. The mind boggles. He is a figurehead with talking points.


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    Max wrote:

    Lydia wrote:

    Brook Hills

    SBC’s New Calvinist churches have such cool names! Reformed church plants in my area are named LifePoint, Freshwater, The Journey, South Creek, and assorted SomethingRiver, SomethingHills, SomethingValley, etc. Most members don’t have a clue that they are affiliated with SBC, unless they happen across it in a corner of their website.

    Same here….something crossing, something creation….have to go digging for the SBC connection.


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    @ Lydia:
    The problem is that the way this was disclosed and “handled” does not instill confidence in anyone who is not a fanboy but who is objective about the facts. Platt did not create the problem, but I think that the way that he has handled it has just continued the underlying problem. That is that the trustees and the entity heads conduct so much of the business of the pewpeons of the SBC with no oversight or transparency. They have created distrust in people who want to trust them, and dismissing very rational and real concerns about the whole constellation of issues as being motivated by hatred for Platt or Calvinism is just a red herring.

    The plain fact is that there has been no good explanation for the decision to continue sending new missionaries while sending out “voluntary” pink slips to missionaries who have been doing the hard work for all these years. It is a slap in the face to those people and to the people they are serving overseas. Their logic is that to suspend new sending would break a promise to the new missionaries. So, what do they call the broken promise of a coercively voluntary VRI?

    The reason that people question the decision is that it makes no sense either financially or WRT the mission. Kids who have not been to language school will be funded while veteran missionaries will be culled “voluntarily.” And, I have also not been able to find what step 3 will be if there is not a net decrease of 600-800. Those are only a few of the holes in this “plan.” Yet the young pastors like those at Voices do not realize that this way of dealing with problems is exactly what got the SBC and the IMB into this pickle jam in the first place. Magical thinking and stonewalling and secrecy is a recipe for continuing decline, IMO.

    Have you heard whether Platt is writing a blank check by foregoing his salary like the veteran missionaries are being asked to do? I suppose that asking that question make me a Platt hater as well as a rebellious woman against male authorities who have totally bungled this entire affair. I still think, per Piper’s reasoning, that this is God’s judgment because the SBC named their main missions offerings after women.


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    Thank you for understanding. Please keep asking the hard questions because we can’t. 1/600
    @ Gram3:


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    And if people are concerned about the 600-800 being given our pink slips, as I think they are, I hope they’ll step up to the plate and offer tangible means of assisting people re-adjusting their lives, and their calls. Most Ms have a full term to deal with things like salary adjustments, finding new jobs and housing, purchasing vehicles. The 600-800 are being given a matter of weeks.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Their logic is that to suspend new sending would break a promise to the new missionaries. So, what do they call the broken promise of a coercively voluntary VRI?

    That is perfectly “logical” to them. It is the “logic” of hirelings.

    Gram3 wrote:

    And, I have also not been able to find what step 3 will be if there is not a net decrease of 600-800.

    I doubt step 3 will be made known. Based upon their consistent behavior to date my guess it will consist of the older missionaries being cut out of the loop and making things generally unbearable until they quit. If they are doing what they are now doing and thinking it is of Christ then obviously there is no telling what they would do to get rid of the 50+ year olds who are not part of the in group.

    Gram3 wrote:

    Have you heard whether Platt is writing a blank check by foregoing his salary like the veteran missionaries are being asked to do? I

    I was wondering myself when the “Radical” would kick in. I do remember a mega church pastor once made a big deal about taking a 10% cut when there were layoffs. Problem was, he was making a salary of 300,000 which did not even include his speaking gigs. But of course, the average pew sitter had no idea what his salary was at all because they attended a church without insisting on being a part of the budget process.

    But the logic of laying off experienced missionaries, who have spent years building relationships, only to hire an inexperienced IMB president (who did not support the CP) to lay them off— just creeps me out at the sheer boldness. It seems to be part of the “rebranding” of the SBC. Yes, it has been the way it was handled. They might as well put up a sign: We have no character or integrity. And we will do what we want with YOUR money because you are too trusting.

    The handwriting was on the wall when they put the minutes of the GCR committee meetings under lock and key for 15 years. Exactly who do these people think they are? Do we even know the same Jesus? I think not.

    I am glad to be out. I am ashamed to have been associated with and hoodwinked by these people.


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    @ Jack:

    And you know, Jack, at that age many people do not even have family they can come back to for support. Many have deceased parents or they are ready for the nursing home, etc. They will be charity cases and eligible for food stamps.

    It is a horrible thing these men have done to real people who are too young to retire and too old to be hired at anything equivalent.


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    Jack wrote:

    The 600-800 are being given a matter of weeks.

    This is unconscionable, and the trustees who mismanaged the IMB for so long need to be held accountable.

    The thing that most irked me about the “explanation” for targeting the seasoned missionaries is the statement that all kinds of missionaries are important. That is manifestly not the case in the way this has been mishandled, since the older and more highly skilled missionaries are tasked with bearing the burden. Promises have been broken to them while new missionaries who have their whole lives ahead of them have been sent *for years* while the trustees and execs knew the extent of the problem. Or should have. They throw out a PR fig leaf that all of the missionaries, including the new ones, are being asked to write a “blank check to God.” Everyone knows who they have in their sights, so who do they think they are fooling? They are not fooling any thinking pewpeon, so they are certainly not fooling our God.

    This could have been prevented or, at the very least, largely prevented by appropriate action being taken years ago. But it was not. Why not, trustees and executives? You say it is because you didn’t want to take missionaries off the field. So, how is that magical thinking of yours working out for the ones who are really affected?

    The IMB statement says that unless the new ones are sent, the connection between the IMB and SBC churches will be harmed. What are these men smoking (I’m certain no beverage alcohol can be blamed)? The relationship of trust between the IMB trustees/executives and the pewpeons has been damaged by *their own failure* to manage their organization and the vast sums of money that the pewpeons trusted them to spend on behalf of the pewpeons for the benefit of spreading the Gospel.

    No doubt it is great to hang out and be important with the Big Men, IMB trustees and executives, but you should have been doing your jobs and taking care of the missionaries on the field who made life decisions based on your stewardship. Where are the trustee resignations? Where is there even an apology from a trustee who oversaw this debacle? Where is anyone even asking for a resignation or an apology? Not happening at Voices, for sure. The fact is that the trustees and executives have made some bad decisions for years that are harming real people.

    Why not divert subsidies to seminary students to missionaries? How much is spent on the seminaries which are training *men* who will never have a pulpit or an IMB appointment. A dollar spent on a seminary subsidy is a dollar not spent supporting these missionaries who had noting to do with the mismanagement of the pewpeons’ offerings. What about a pay cut for the seminary profs and executives? Does the SBC exist for missions or is that merely a selling point? Seems to me a pay cut for the rest of the SBC Big Men is in order if it’s OK for the seasoned missionaries to lose their support.

    The fact is that the IMB trustees and executives should be trusted when they explain what wrong decisions they made and why they have kept everything under the table in a back room and after they take affirmative steps to show that every possible means has been exhausted to mitigate the harm to the missionaries who relied on them.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Promises have been broken to them

    How in the world did I write something in the passive voice? Should have been “the trustees and executives broke promises made to the seasoned missionaries.”


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    And, I’m sorry, but Platt’s insistence that we should trust him that all other alternatives were considered and this is the least bad one is just not going to happen, except for the fanboys, until Platt and the trustees explain the process they went through and what alternatives they considered. We tried the trust thing, and now it’s time for the verify thing.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Jack wrote:

    The 600-800 are being given a matter of weeks.

    This is unconscionable, and the trustees who mismanaged the IMB for so long need to be held accountable.

    The thing that most irked me about the “explanation” for targeting the seasoned missionaries is the statement that all kinds of missionaries are important. That is manifestly not the case in the way this has been mishandled, since the older and more highly skilled missionaries are tasked with bearing the burden. Promises have been broken to them while new missionaries who have their whole lives ahead of them have been sent *for years* while the trustees and execs knew the extent of the problem. Or should have. They throw out a PR fig leaf that all of the missionaries, including the new ones, are being asked to write a “blank check to God.” Everyone knows who they have in their sights, so who do they think they are fooling? They are not fooling any thinking pewpeon, so they are certainly not fooling our God.

    This could have been prevented or, at the very least, largely prevented by appropriate action being taken years ago. But it was not. Why not, trustees and executives? You say it is because you didn’t want to take missionaries off the field. So, how is that magical thinking of yours working out for the ones who are really affected?

    The IMB statement says that unless the new ones are sent, the connection between the IMB and SBC churches will be harmed. What are these men smoking (I’m certain no beverage alcohol can be blamed)? The relationship of trust between the IMB trustees/executives and the pewpeons has been damaged by *their own failure* to manage their organization and the vast sums of money that the pewpeons trusted them to spend on behalf of the pewpeons for the benefit of spreading the Gospel.

    No doubt it is great to hang out and be important with the Big Men, IMB trustees and executives, but you should have been doing your jobs and taking care of the missionaries on the field who made life decisions based on your stewardship. Where are the trustee resignations? Where is there even an apology from a trustee who oversaw this debacle? Where is anyone even asking for a resignation or an apology? Not happening at Voices, for sure. The fact is that the trustees and executives have made some bad decisions for years that are harming real people.

    Why not divert subsidies to seminary students to missionaries? How much is spent on the seminaries which are training *men* who will never have a pulpit or an IMB appointment. A dollar spent on a seminary subsidy is a dollar not spent supporting these missionaries who had noting to do with the mismanagement of the pewpeons’ offerings. What about a pay cut for the seminary profs and executives? Does the SBC exist for missions or is that merely a selling point? Seems to me a pay cut for the rest of the SBC Big Men is in order if it’s OK for the seasoned missionaries to lose their support.

    The fact is that the IMB trustees and executives should be trusted when they explain what wrong decisions they made and why they have kept everything under the table in a back room and after they take affirmative steps to show that every possible means has been exhausted to mitigate the harm to the missionaries who relied on them.

    Gram3 wrote:

    (I’m certain no beverage alcohol can be blamed)?

    I’m not so sure. Many YRR’s like a stiff drink every now and then.


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    @ Gram3:

    “Have you heard whether Platt is writing a blank check by foregoing his salary like the veteran missionaries are being asked to do?”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++

    do they get no retirement income?

    so let me get this straight… the missionaries are being asked to give up their jobs so the white collar professional Christians & all their support staff in their cush environment of the IMB headquarters domestic-job-creation-center can keep theirs, along with their generous salaries and benefits.

    check this out: (from IMB website)

    US JOBS

    Benefits for home office jobs

    IMB offers a comprehensive package of benefits for your health, family, time off, income protection and retirement.

    http://www.imb.org/about-us/usajobs.aspx#.VgIsycpdE5s
    ———

    is there a high-profile investigative journalist in the house?


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    Leadership

    David Platt, president
    Sebastian Traeger, executive vice president
    Clyde Meador, executive advisor to the president
    John Brady, vice president, Global Engagement
    Rodney Freeman, vice president, Support Services
    Zane Pratt, vice president, Training
    Gordon Fort, senior ambassador

    what is the total compensation package for these dickles, salary/benefits/perks/luxurious travel expenses & all? how much does their office facility cost to run?

    just how many vice presidents does something like this need anyway? how ridiculous. maybe a few people who are good with project management. but this?


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    @ Jack:

    Can you share the dollar amount being offered for the “retirement grant” used in the multiplication of months served? I know there is two separate amounts for couples and singles.

    Prayers for wisdom and discernment for all of you on the field. I truly believe leadership will one day have to give an accounting for their actions — the good and the harmful.


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    @ elastigirl:
    They are not well paid so not allowing them to work until retirement age is a financial disaster for them.


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    @ lydia:

    There is much wrong on so many levels with the IMB. The average pew sitter would be absolutely shocked and dismayed if they knew how their Lottie dollars were spent. But that is a post for another day.

    Below is the VRI being offered to missionaries over the age of 50 with 5 years of service. The compensation package offered in the VRI for phase I is really not bad.

    Returning to the US only to have to find jobs and start-up new households will be difficult, however, the “retired” missionaries depending on a couple of the variables (years served, grant amount, etc) could pocket well over $100K in cash (pre-tax) and other benefits. In addition, they will also be able to ship home most of their belongings and be able draw from their retirement funds with GuideStone upon reaching retirement age. While not exactly a major financial windfall, not exactly penniless either.

    VRI Package:

    – Each retiring unit will receive a buyout for their earned, unused Stateside Assignment (STAS) time, with a cap of 14 months. Instead of taking your STAS time, you’ll receive the equivalent of a paycheck for that time and be done. (Most M’s will have anywhere from 3 to 14 months available at an average STAS pay of $2,100 per month)

    – Each unit will receive a retirement grant to be figured on a formula. Couples will receive $XX for every month of service. Singles will receive a smaller amount, also multiplied by months of service. (this could add up quickly)

    – Medical insurance will continue for the unit and their dependent children through December 31, 2016.

    – Medical allowances will also pay out to couples and singles, but with prorated schedules based on age and years of experience.

    -Life insurance will continue, with variations based on age of the unit and years of experience.

    Bonus

    Feedback from field units revealed two major concerns upon retirement: cash and medicine. Specifically, how could retiring workers make ends meet and see the doctor while searching for new jobs.

    Therefore, the IMB has created a point system. Each retiring unit will receive 12 points to spend on either a monthly paycheck or on medical coverage. Units with more than 25 years of service will get an extra point.

    One point = one month’s salary
    Or
    One point = three months of medical coverage.

    Divide it up as you will. Once you opt for cash, that’s the end of the line; you can never change your mind. If, however, you choose the insurance option, you will have an opportunity to revisit that decision in November 2016. At that time, if your insurance is managed by your new job you have the option of cashing in your untouched medical coverage points and getting the paycheck option instead.

    Additional

    All MKs who would normally receive funds for college will continue to be eligible for those funds even if they have not reach university age. Workers with more than 20 years of experience will receive the full package for their kids. Those with 15-19 years will get roughly 80% of the funds. The rest of the retirees will only merit 60% of the full fund.

    All retirees with 15 years of experience will move to Emeritus status. As well, everyone will receive help in figuring out their taxes for all of this for 2015 and 2016.

    Transition

    Everyone will receive paychecks through December 31. An additional 3 months of salary will be paid as assistance during the unemployed transition period. Everyone will have to buy a car, find a home, etc., and transition costs are prohibitive.

    The organization will pay to ship home a single container of goods, or will pay the approximate value of that container to the worker. This is fairly consistent with freighting policies: container or cash. Those who opt for the cash can try to ship home their belongings on the cheap and keep the funds, or just sell out and replace everything.
    An Example

    Take a married couple at 56 years of age. They have two kids in college as well as a senior in high school. They’ve been with the organization 19 years. The database shows they have 11 months of earned STAS time.

    Based on their age, experience, and hypothetical personal choices, their take will be:
    11 months worth of paycheck for the STAS buyout
    retirement grant of $XX * 228 months of service
    Medical insurance through December 2016
    Medical allowance prorated by age (56) and service (19 years)
    Life insurance
    12 points, divided up into 5 months of salary and 21 months of insurance
    College funds at 80% of the full amount for each child
    Emeritus status
    Tax help
    3 months of salary as transition costs
    personal belongings shipped home
    Airfare for the family


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    elastigirl wrote:

    Sebastian Traeger, executive vice president

    His name keeps coming up. Evidently he has been around a while and was aware of the crisis long before it went public. Of course, Tom Eliff, former IMB Prez is responsible big time.

    An interesting story about Eliff from back in 1993. He spoke at SBTS Chapel and made the declaration that he was the first “conservative” allowed to speak in chapel for __ amount of years.

    A man in attendance just happened to be the long time Library Archivist and knew that was not true. He wrote Eliff and gave him the names of those who had spoke in chapel within that time frame. Eliff sent the letter to Mohler (33 at the time) and Mohler fired the man 8 months before his retirement which meant he did not get full retirement. The man’s name is Paul Debusman.

    So we know what these men are capable of even going back that far. A man in his 60’s was fired by 33 year old Mohler for communicating truth that they did not want to hear.

    That is the character of the men we are discussing.


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    Alexx wrote:

    There is much wrong on so many levels with the IMB. The average pew sitter would be absolutely shocked and dismayed if they knew how their Lottie dollars were spent

    My dad started designating local years ago because he did not trust the “Lottie Moon declarations” anymore. But he knew the guys doing local missions and often volunteered with them. He just lost all trust in the very people we are discussing years ago. Ok, back to reading your comment.


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    @ Alexx:

    And a few weeks to make this sort of decision.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Eliff sent the letter to Mohler (33 at the time) and Mohler fired the man 8 months before his retirement which meant he did not get full retirement. The man’s name is Paul Debusman.

    Lydia, Mohler’s hatchet days at SBTS is a painful memory, as he cleared house of some godly men and women at Southern. Regarding Tom Elliff, his theological leaning has been a mystery … Calvinist or non-Calvinist? There is no doubt that his brother, Jim Elliff, is about as reformed as you can get. He has been influencing students at Midwestern Seminary for years to head in that direction.


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    Alexx wrote:

    Returning to the US only to have to find jobs and start-up new households will be difficult, however, the “retired” missionaries depending on a couple of the variables (years served, grant amount, etc) could pocket well over $100K in cash (pre-tax) and other benefits

    Below what the inexperienced Platt makes per year?

    Yes, the 100K sounds like a lot but it really isn’t when you have it pretax and have to find a car, home, etc with fewer contacts after years of living abroad and a glut of similar people also looking for work in churches. And how many would qualify for that sort of payout? Having to chuck 10 years before retirement affects that amount, too.

    I don’t see it as a good deal at all. I see it as punishing the very people who were doing the mission of the IMB. I think it is demoralizing and flat out wrong.

    Where is Platt’s blank check? What about Eliff’s retirement? Traegar? I am looking but cannot seem to find Jesus in all this.


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    Max wrote:

    Regarding Tom Elliff, his theological leaning has been a mystery … Calvinist or non-Calvinist? There is no doubt that his brother, Jim Elliff, is about as reformed as you can get. He has been influencing students at Midwestern Seminary for years to head in that direction.

    There are a lot of guys that play both sides depending on the audience. Russ Moore and Kevin Ezell come to mind from watching them in my neck of the woods. Ezell’s church had NO idea they were being taken elder led and Calvinistic before he went to save NAMB with Acts 29. I wish I could say how I knew but the poison of satan would be brought down on us and we have had enough suffering from the charlatans.

    It never really was about strict Calvinism when you get up in the stratosphere of leadership. It was always about power. But they needed followers and the young guys needed a rallying cry for war from the generals and what better one than “only we have the true Gospel!”.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    Gordon Fort, senior ambassador

    Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t this guy run the school for “prayer” training? IMB has a school to teach people how to pray?

    There is something just waiting to be cut.


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    Lydia wrote:

    There are a lot of guys that play both sides depending on the audience. Russ Moore and Kevin Ezell come to mind from watching them in my neck of the woods.

    Prior to their current positions, Russell Moore was Al Mohler’s Dean of Theology at SBTS. Kevin Ezell was Mohler’s pastor. Calvinist or non-Calvinist? Think about it.


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    Max wrote:

    Prior to their current positions, Russell Moore was Al Mohler’s Dean of Theology at SBTS. Kevin Ezell was Mohler’s pastor. Calvinist or non-Calvinist? Think about it.

    They are most probably Calvinist, but I honestly believe that the real reason for their star rising is their loyalty to Mohler. Cronyism and nepotism. And I think that the Mohler fingerprints are the reason no pewpeon will ever know how this disaster happened. Competence is not a requirement, but fierce loyalty to the Man and the Cause is essential.


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    Alexx wrote:

    retirement grant of $XX * 228 months of service

    What is the value of “XX” in this formula? Also, which of these benefits is above what they would receive upon normal retirement? The whole thing has been presented in a way that is less than transparent to the people who are affected *and* the people who are paying for this.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Tom Eliff, former IMB Prez is responsible big time.

    No kidding, along with every one of the trustees from those years of continuing deficits. Platt inherited the mess but he and the trustees have not handled it as well as they should have, IMO, based on what we know. There may be something hidden which would change that opinion, but why would they hide the decision process? The pewpeons are too stupid to understand? No, I think it is because there are lots of pewpeons who work in the real world who would understand a lot of things perfectly well.


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    Lydia wrote:

    It was always about power. But they needed followers and the young guys needed a rallying cry for war from the generals and what better one than “only we have the true Gospel!”.

    I agree, and the young people are, in many cases, reacting against a flaccid or legalistic church they inherited from their parents. These guys offered a way to feel significant and serious and a way for young people to think that they are making a difference.


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    Lydia wrote:

    school for “prayer” training?

    Christians who have experienced a genuine “calling” from God to the mission field already know how to pray – the Holy Spirit has taught them. If there hasn’t been a call on their lives, they need to get some prayer training and pray about another profession. (Preparing for the ministry is vastly different than being called into it).


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    Gram3 wrote:

    the real reason for their star rising is their loyalty to Mohler. Cronyism and nepotism … fierce loyalty to the Man and the Cause is essential

    No doubt about it! Out of 16 million Southern Baptists (OK, only 8 million really), surely there were other qualified candidates for the positions they hold. The Dr. Mohler-connection is obvious. Folks in the pew are either uninformed, misinformed, or willingly ignorant about the good doctor’s strategy to Calvinize the SBC.


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    Lydia wrote:

    Tom Eliff, former IMB Prez is responsible big time

    The IMB deficit-spent nearly a quarter billion $s under Elliff’s watch. I’m not a David Platt (New Calvinist) supporter, but he did wade into a red fiscal stream when he took charge of IMB.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    the young people are, in many cases, reacting against a flaccid or legalistic church they inherited from their parents

    A good point, which is seldom made about the New Calvinism movement. An apathetic generation of Southern Baptists (and other denominations) created the environment which has birthed this rebellion. Something needed to be done to keep the Millinneals in church … I would have preferred individual and corporate repentance and crying out to God by my generation, but the masses have largely lost interest in such things as they do church without God.


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    Max wrote:

    rior to their current positions, Russell Moore was Al Mohler’s Dean of Theology at SBTS. Kevin Ezell was Mohler’s pastor. Calvinist or non-Calvinist? Think about it.

    Moore became “teaching pastor” or something similar at Highview when Ezell went to NAMB. Moore was also Dean at SBTS at the same time. Double dipping. You would think with all the YRR looking for churches they could have made some space there instead of a double dipping Dean at SBTS.


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    @ Max:
    Max, I really want to know if it is true about a school for prayer training at IMB. Wonder how in the world that came about. Is there any connection to this and the flap over PPL a few years back at the IMB?

    I am also catching on to a discouraging theme. Anonymous IMB personnel keep mentioning new programs they have in the works on various blogs. This is simply unacceptable in the current financial environment. The sounds too much like how the government operates.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Competence is not a requirement, but fierce loyalty to the Man and the Cause is essential.

    Just as it was to Comrade Lenin, Comrade Stalin, Comrade Kim Jong-whatever…

    Because those Most Fiercely Loyal not only don’t get Purged, they get a pat-pat-pat on the head (and special perks & privileges) from Comrade Fearless Leader. And the way to keep from being Purged is to be More Fierce and More Loyal than all the others. Out-flattering all the other Courtiers, pointing out to Comrade Fearless Leader how ALL the others are Plotting Against Him…


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    I don’t know anything about most of these guys or their character and background, but in an odd twist of events I do know one. Rodney Freeman is married to a childhood friend of mine and I’ve known of him for years. He has been with IMB for all of about 3 or 4 weeks now. He comes out of a business background and has real world experience getting things done. As Vice President of support, his job would be taking care of the nuts and bolts details that the folks overseas depend on. As far as I know his character is unimpeachable. They may have actually made a great choice with this one.@ elastigirl:


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    @ Bookbolter:
    Was it a vacant position or a created position?


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    @ Max:

    “The IMB deficit-spent nearly a quarter billion $s under Elliff’s watch”
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    on what?


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    @ lydia:
    @ Bookbolter:
    Was it a vacant position or a created position?

    I think they’ve changed it some. Not sure what it used to be, but this position will cover logistics, finance, and personnel according to an article I found. Rodney did global logistics for Merck and was already an IMB trustee, but I don’t know for how long.


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    @ Lydia:

    re: Gordon Fort, senior ambassador

    “Correct me if I am wrong but doesn’t this guy run the school for “prayer” training? IMB has a school to teach people how to pray?”
    ++++++++++++++++

    Missionaries need to be taught how to pray?? give me a break. utterly ridiculous.

    sounds like Gordon Fort wanted/needed a job.

    and, just speculating here, this “ambassadorship” was created for him on the basis of some kind of honor/loyalty due to having worked his way up into the upper echelon of SBC eliteness. a reward.

    or maybe he was promised a job in the SBC until he chooses to retire, and there wasn’t anything anywhere. The IMB has gotten away with lots, so a convenient sector to slip this in under the radar. And presto — job security for SBC bigwigs.

    and, well, he has to do something to justify the position/job. there wasn’t anything really to do. so, why not create a school of prayer as part of the created job description for said created job.

    just speculating. at least that’s the whiff i’m getting on the breeze here (which has blown a very long way to get to where I am)


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    elastigirl wrote:

    on what?

    Great question! I haven’t seen that accounting, just the gross report of the deficit. From David Platt’s open letter to the “SBC Family” cited above “… when we stepped back and looked at IMB finances since 2010, we realized that IMB has spent a combined $210 million more than people have given to us …” If my family spent wildly like this, some behinds would get kicked! (instead, poor missionaries will pay the price for IMB’s financial mismanagement)


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    Max wrote:

    I’m not a David Platt (New Calvinist) supporter, but he did wade into a red fiscal stream when he took charge of IMB.

    He did inherit a huge mess, but OTOH, he didn’t do much at Brook Hills to help matters at the IMB, either. That does not take away from the missions work that Brook Hills did/does as a church, but Platt did not “lead them well” to contribute much to the CP. And a lot of other young pups did the same with their churches for various reasons. There is a lot of blame to go around, but it looks like the pewpeons are going to be blamed for being “selfish.”


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    Bookbolter wrote:

    As Vice President of support, his job would be taking care of the nuts and bolts details that the folks overseas depend on.

    This is a vital role, IMO. I hope that he performs well and does not demand a huge salary for doing it. We simply don’t have enough information to figure out who did what and why they did it and if they were effective. IMB is a huge black box as are all the SBC entities.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    on what?

    That is on a need-to-know basis, and the pewpeons who provided the funds do not need to know this kind of info lest they stop being pewpotatoes and start asking tough questions.


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    I know that back around 2008 or so former President, Bobby Welch, of the SBC was given a job titled “Global Evangelical Relations”. I have no idea what he did or what it was comprised of but I remember thinking it was one of those good old boys jobs.

    That could be where some of huge deficit went. There there was some created job for Ken Hemphill, too.

    So maybe there is a pattern and it goes much deeper than we realize? I am still a bit floored that the IMB does not have a hiring freeze on.


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    @ Max:

    “…when we stepped back and looked at IMB finances since 2010, we realized that IMB has spent a combined $210 million more than people have given to us”
    ++++++++++++++++

    this was a crime. whether or not it is an arrestable offense is beside the point.

    SBCers, raise your standards and expectations and demand answers from those who call themselves your leaders. in the name of what is good, right, and just, bring the situation into the light in increasing magnitude. since honest questions from ordinary members are seemingly ignored, bring in more high profile people to ask the questions, ever louder.

    investigative journalists, your participation is requested.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    demand answers from those who call themselves your leaders

    That gets anyone who does that disfellowshipped, either formally or informally. Some kinds of “leaders” do not take questions they do not want to hear. Shepherds and stewards, OTOH, do not behave or think that way.


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    Gram3 wrote:

    Platt did not “lead them well” to contribute much to the CP. And a lot of other young pups did the same with their churches

    Many YRR church planters in SBC don’t even know what CP is, so they won’t encourage their flocks to give to it. But, they are pleased to receive church planting funds from SBC when they are handed out.


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    @ Gram3:

    are there any SBC leaders who are their own man (in the absence of women leaders), enough to stand for what is right/just/true in this situation? to stand up to those who cover up fraud to protect themselves at great cost to others?

    any at all?


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    Max wrote:

    Many YRR church planters in SBC don’t even know what CP is, so they won’t encourage their flocks to give to it. But, they are pleased to receive church planting funds from SBC when they are handed out.

    Just like all entitled adolescents. I really am becoming convicted that a real job is a pre-requisite for leadership, because these professional spiritual “leaders” certainly seem clueless about how things work or should work.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    are there any SBC leaders who are their own man (in the absence of women leaders), enough to stand for what is right/just/true in this situation? to stand up to those who cover up fraud to protect themselves at great cost to others?

    I think if anyone sticks his head up who has a job dependent on currying favor with the SBC elites, his paycheck is in as much jeopardy as the missionaries’ checks. Based on their track record of blaming the pewpeons, I doubt that any of the entity bigwigs or megapastors are going to say a word. I hope I am dead wrong about that, but I’m struggling to find contrary evidence. For me, I don’t think it is necessarily fraud, though it might be. I do think that, at the very least, it is gross mismanagement based on magical thinking. What kind of business could expect to survive by budgeting based on wild and unrealistic projections of income? Or who sells their capital assets to fund operations? Only in the super-spiritualized ether of the professional clergy could such be considered responsible. But you see apologists all over the place who say, “Well, they did it for the best of reasons.” Again, I ask what they are smoking, but perhaps it is because I lack a rational Y chromosome and cannot figure such deep things out.


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    Unfortunately, I fall into that category 🙁@ Lydia:


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    I’m not sure how it’s calculated, but I can tell you that my “pay out” will be NOTHING NEAR $100,000. @ Alexx:


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    @ Lydia:
    I am so very sorry. I know what it is like to be treated like that by “godly” professional Christians. Hurt feelings is one thing but messing with a person’s basic means is quite another.

    It is a cruel lesson to learn that we trusted the untrustworthy.


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    Oops. My last comment was to Jack


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    Gram3 wrote:

    I really am becoming convicted that a real job is a pre-requisite for leadership

    It is in every other profession, than the ministry! I’m a firm believer that God calls and equips preachers of the Gospel, and the He will make a way for their calling. However, it’s increasingly apparent that most leadership in American pulpits have “prepared” for the ministry, not been called into it (particularly the YRR). Most of them couldn’t work real jobs if they had to … and do I ever wish they would have to!


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    Thank you Lydia. I appreciate the encouragement. It’s gonna be a tough few months. Right now, I’m just Asking the Father to still my heart so that I can really hear His direction. I’m not as much worried about finding a new car, or a new job, or a place to live, as I am about being exactly where He wants me to be. In all honesty, I’m a “done”, but He keeps drawing me back. But I know for now, I can’t be employed by any sort of “Christian” organization. I refuse to be at the mercy of “godly” men. Give me a job stocking shelves, or mopping floors. @ lydia:


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    Jack wrote:

    But I know for now, I can’t be employed by any sort of “Christian” organization. I refuse to be at the mercy of “godly” men.

    This is my big message of warning to folks: Don’t ever trust Christians for your livelihood.


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    Jack wrote:

    I am about being exactly where He wants me to be. In all honesty, I’m a “done”, but He keeps drawing me back. But I know for now, I can’t be employed by any sort of “Christian” organization.

    I’m so sorry that your trust has been damaged by this horrible mismanagement. I am thankful that has not diminished your trust in God who is faithful when we are not. I pray that the Lord will grant you peace during the transition and that your way will be made clear. Young people like Platt and the guys at Voices have no idea what it is like to enter the job market after 50. No idea at all, sadly.


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    Oh to be 50 again. Am afraid I turned 60 the same week the ERI was issued.:-(
    @ Gram3:
    @ Gram3:


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    Jack wrote:

    n all honesty, I’m a “done”, but He keeps drawing me back.

    I think most dones love Jesus Christ too much to continue to support corrupt institutions who claim to be about Him.


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    Jack wrote:

    I’m a “done”, but He keeps drawing me back

    Then you ain’t “done” yet! The organized church, as we have known it, is done but hasn’t quit yet. The Father continues to draw the Church within the church into ministry for Him … and we may find out, in the days ahead, that true ministry will be taking place outside institutional church. Jesus came to redeem and work through individuals, not institutions! The institution we call “church” is OK if it is reaching lost folks and equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry. If it’s not about that business, Jesus will call genuine believers out of it and to where He is. Look for where He is working and join Him there.


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    lydia wrote:

    most dones love Jesus Christ too much to continue to support corrupt institutions who claim to be about Him

    And every “done” shouted AMEN!! (or should have)


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    The most disturbing part of this is the lack of truth. I won’t say “lie”, because that would be accusing someone of sin and I don’t believe Platt and Traeger have purposely sinned in this. But they do have an agenda and it’s slipped out numerous times. Number one. Not bringing up the financial need at the Southern Baptist Convention a few months before. If they had announced that without immediate serious donations, career missionaries were going to be shocked in 2 months and told their missionary life was over, start packing and you will be home by Dec. 1st. 4 months notice after 30 years of service with the expectation to stay 10 or 15 more. Instead, it is my and many others opinion that they simply want the old guard (primarily autonomous, experienced missionaries over the age of 50), off the field to be replaced with others like themselves: reformed, younger models. Worse yet, the continual, celebratory commissioning of these newer models in THE FACE OF DEVASTATED, OLDER, LIFETIME MISSIONARIES THAT ARE HEARTBROKEN AND WHO ARE BEING FORCED HOME TO BE HOMELESS, BROKE AND UNEMPLOYED! Exactly like an abandoned older wife that has been suddenly shocked with divorce and immediately watch her husband of 30 years celebrate his marriage with a younger one. Shame on every person that is part of, attended or celebrated at those ceremonies and especially, shame on those commissioned. God is not going to reward your absolute disregard for your elders and those of the faith that has already sacrificed and paid the price. And the ultimate exposure of their deception was when they said: “We need more support so that we can STOP PULLING MISSIONARIES OFF THE FIELD.” Wait. You aren’t pulling missionaries off the field, are you? You told us it was VOLUNTARY!

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