Doug Wilson’s Failure to Safeguard Children – Guest Post

"As dismaying as Wilson’s actions have been, perhaps even more upsetting has been the silence from the Reformed corner of the evangelical church."

Mike Sloan and Beth Hart

http://vintage73.com/2015/09/doug-wilsons-failure-to-safeguard-children/

The Doug Wilson / Steven Sitler debacle continues to garner attention around the blogosphere, and rightly so.  Earlier today I read an excellent analysis over at Vintage73.comMike Sloan and Beth Hart have written the post we are featuring today.  For those not familiar with Vintage 73, it is a . . .

collaborative blog focusing on the culture and values of the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA). The site was born out of a desire for honest and charitable discussion within and about the PCA. Read about the genesis of our blog and learn more about our contributors below.

We are grateful that Mike Sloan and Beth Hart are addressing this very serious matter.


Doug Wilson's Failure to Safeguard Children (link)

by Mike Sloan and Beth Hart

[Authors’ Note: Even before we wrote this article, ink has been spilled over the language “sexual stimulation” with regard to Sitler’s interaction with his baby. These words could be taken to imply molestation or rape, but not necessarily, and not in our opinion given the current evidence. It seems what was intended is that Sitler was himself sexually stimulated by thinking about his baby. And yet we stand by our labeling this “alleged sexual abuse”. It stands to reason that this was more than simply a fleeting temptation given the state’s response. It seems most likely they were an intentional indulgence by Sitler. So while this is not a criminal act in the state of Idaho, by a Christian moral standard this is horrific child sexual abuse, as Sitler was allegedly using thoughts of his own baby to gratify himself sexually. Using a baby as an object in this way is a disturbing act of abuse. Whatever the case this has no bearing on the truth that Sitler should be no where near any child, even his own.]

Doug Wilson’s leadership decisions directly led to the endangerment and alleged sexual abuse of a baby. In August, 2015, the baby’s father, a convicted sex offender and clinically diagnosed pedophile, Steven Sitler, failed a polygraph that revealed “heinous” violations of his probation with regard to his own infant child such that the Idaho Department of Correction ordered him to have no contact with the baby.

Wilson has come under criticism as he provided pastoral care for Sitler who is a member of Wilson’s church. Why should Wilson suffer criticism when Sitler is the offender? The criticism has merit because abuse happens through the actions of abusers as well as through the negligent actions of adults who do not properly safeguard children.

In three critical arenas, Doug Wilson acted irresponsibly, and his actions allowed a serial pedophile access to a vulnerable baby. This access led to preventable endangerment wherein Sitler used his baby for “sexual stimulation.” In the first arena, Wilson advocated for limited legal accountability for Sitler’s crimes when he was originally tried and convicted in 2005. In the second arena, Wilson officiated Sitler’s ill-advised wedding in 2011. In the third arena, Wilson’s public responses to Sitler’s most recent legal trouble reveal his teachings about pedophilia, accountability, child protection, and grace that create a culture where children are exposed instead of protected.

Despite Wilson’s dereliction of pastoral duty, the evangelical and Reformed church community remains silent on this issue of child sexual abuse. Silence in the face of child sexual abuse only helps to maintain the status quo, a status quo that led to a pedophile’s easy access to a vulnerable baby.

Arena #1: Wilson Advocates for “Measured and Limited” Legal Accountability

Two measures of genuine repentance for pedophiles is their awareness of the damage their actions cause and their ability to own full accountability for that destruction. Offenders typically only confess when they get caught, like Sitler. When pedophiles are caught (as opposed to them proactively seeking help before they have offended), they display an extreme lack of awareness about how their attitudes and actions bring incredible harm, and their repentance must be judged with great care and wisdom. Offenders are masters of deception and manipulation, often saying what people want to hear so that they attract attention and compassion toward themselves and away from their victims.

Moreover, regardless of anyone’s judgment about their repentance, people who have abused a child show they are capable of harming children and must never be allowed access to children again. Never. Full stop. Not once. No exceptions. Children are too vulnerable, and pedophilia is too serious a crime for exceptions. There are no measures too drastic in order to keep a child from the evil of sexual abuse. Repentant offenders will realize their danger and will insist on strict accountability, including no access to children. Sitler originally received a fair and just life sentence for his crimes.

In 2005, as Sitler was being sentenced, Wilson wrote the judge asking for leniency in the realm of civil penalties, arguing that he believed Sitler was genuinely repentant. Among Wilson’s evidence for this assertion was Sitler’s willingness to sit through a handful of sessions with Wilson, including the completion of assignments (which included reading books). Wilson also assessed that Sitler was “completely open and honest” with him and that Sitler was growing in his awareness of his problem. In other words, Sitler confessed to certain wrongs, and Wilson believed that this confession was the whole story, demonstrating Sitler’s change of heart.

Wilson, in the letter, does not explicitly factor into his assessment how Sitler was caught in his crimes. Sitler, nonetheless, has been deceiving people since he was a young man, serially abusing children (a court document filed by his defense references Sitler’s “volume of offenses over the years”). With training, Wilson would know that offenders typically only admit to as little of their crimes as possible. Offenders also know the language that pastors expect to hear. No doubt Wilson would agree that repentance is more than words, and yet, in this case, he seems to have accepted these few talks with Sitler as establishing enough repentance to advocate for “measured and limited” punishment. The Bible is clear that, at best, words are only the beginning of repentance, and that repentance is a heart change that must bear fruit over time in actions (Luke 3:8-14). In fact, a repentant pedophile would not argue for a limited punishment, but instead, accept the full legal consequences of the crimes.

Doug Wilson has no professional licensing or accreditation in treatment for sexual offenders. Wilson founded a church, denomination, college, and minister training school, but evaluating a pedophile’s repentance is beyond his expertise. The professional evaluation of Sitler is that he is a “high risk” offender. A few sessions of pastoral counseling with a high risk offender should not be used to judge the genuineness of repentance. Sitler’s subsequent violations of his probation and failed polygraphs demonstrate how Wilson prematurely judged Sitler.

With more training in the dynamics of abuse as well as a dose of humility, Sitler could still be in jail instead of free to harm children. With training in the dynamics of child sexual abuse or consultations with an expert, Wilson could have recognized that Sitler was not demonstrating actual repentance, a costly failure on Wilson’s part. Pastors have a responsibility to protect the sheep in their flocks from dangerous wolves (Ez 34; Acts 20). The current publicity surrounding abuse and abuse dynamics makes it impossible for pastors to claim the excuse of ignorance. This is not just a mistake or oversight, but a grave dereliction of pastoral responsibility.

In 2005, excellent resources were available to understand from experts how predators deceive and how we can see through their deception and manipulation. Anna Salter, in her book, Predators, shows that 93% of convicted offenders identify as religious. Sexual offenders are common in the Christian environment because in churches they typically find easy targets. Offenders groom not only their victims, but their churches to see them as caring people, masking their true agenda. Christians tend to just trust that the people around them are wonderful people (because most of the time they are!). At the same time, this environment is also a recipe for abuse if Christians are not trained and following best practices in child protection.

Without informed training, pastors will not recognize pedophiles’ false repentance. The fruit of Sitler’s repentance is absent. Within months, the bad fruit in his heart resurfaced, including violating his probation and, most disturbingly, demonstrating the classic offender attitude of hubris and entitlement: “Mr. Sitler continues to do things his way, and continues to make disclosures and still fails the polygraphs, to which leaves one to think of how much he is not disclosing (emphasis added).” Despite these latest reports of Sitler’s deception and “heinous” violations, Wilson still holds on to the notion that Sitler is repentant as of Saturday, September 5, defending himself and Sitler, saying, “since Steven’s conviction and conditional release from prison and jail, Steven, as a penitent Christian, has been welcome at Christ Church, and has worshiped regularly with us since that time.”

Wilson should never have advocated for leniency because there is no solid foundation to claim Sitler is repenting. Advocating for a “measured and limited” civil penalty does not protect children in the community or help pedophiles walk in repentance.

Arena #2: Wilson Officiates Sitler’s Wedding

Before Sitler’s wedding in 2011, the Idaho Department of Correction did not support this marriage, and Sitler’s probation officer testified in court that if Sitler’s marriage produced children, he should be forced to live separately from his children. Although the judge allowed the marriage to go forward, this was against the advice of the Idaho Department of Correction. The Department of Correction knew that having Sitler in the home with his own child would pose a danger to the child. The representative from the Department of Correction correctly pointed out that if Sitler lived in the same home as his future child, there would be times when Sitler was unchaperoned around the child because his wife would have to sleep. Wilson had the opportunity to intervene on behalf of any future little children’s safety. Instead, he officiated the wedding.

As a pastor, Doug Wilson had a moral obligation to go above and beyond the protection that the state can provide. Despite the judge’s ruling, Wilson must answer to Jesus through whom God will judge the world, and who speaks strongly against anyone who harms a child, saying, “whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea” (Matt 18:6). In these words, Jesus acknowledges the inherent danger of anyone who has abused a child and the urgent need to guard children against these abusers through physical and permanent separation between the abuser and any child. Jesus never minimizes the danger an abuser is to children or risks exposing children to harm.

Jesus shows the church what grace looks like when responding to child abuse: children take priority. Grace rescues the vulnerable and oppressed (Ps 82:1-4). The church must immediately and permanently remove access to children for anyone who has abused a child.The church must diligently guard potential victims by ensuring that people who harm children never have access to children again. Such actions display God’s grace and kindness. The gospel of grace leads Christians to defend sheep from wolves.

If an admitted and diagnosed serial pedophile like Sitler is walking in repentance, he would demonstrate that repentance by renouncing the possibility of having children and thus marriage. Instead, Sitler proposed on the second date to his future wife and, according to the Department of Corrections, Sitler said having children was very important to his religion. Wilson, as a spiritual authority in Sitler’s life, should have intervened to hold Sitler accountable to his repentance. The most loving and gracious action toward Sitler himself would have been to seek to stop the marriage so Sitler would not be put in the potential position of harming another child. Wilson had a moral obligation to intervene for future victims and Sitler, but he did not.

Arena #3: Wilson Responds Publicly

Wilson’s public responses have displayed no awareness of the damage his leadership has caused victims. In “An Open Letter from Christ Church on Steven Sitler,” Wilson places 100 percent of the blame for the situation upon Sitler’s shoulders. No doubt Sitler bears full responsibility for his actions, but Wilson played a key role in exposing children to a dangerous man. In the statement, Wilson denies the risk Sitler poses to his own child, and the part he has played in orchestrating the risk, saying, “Our ministry to Steven, in other words, has not been conducted at the expense of any children in our church community, or in a way that puts any of them at risk.” However, the church and Wilson have put Sitler’s baby at risk, so much so that Sitler has been ordered not to have any contact with his son until reliable chaperones can be secured. Then, moving forward, this child can only have contact with his father under a chaperone’s direct line of sight. This scenario is the very definition of high-risk as children cannot protect themselves from predators. Instead, they rely upon the adults in their lives to advocate for their safety. Wilson has been in a position to advocate for this baby’s safety but has not. It is also been noted that Wilson failed to inform his congregation in a timely fashion that Sitler was a danger to their children. Without raising any suspicion, Sitler could have easily gained access to their children because of Wilson’s failure to notify them. Wilson’s actions have put children at risk.

Wilson continues to defend himself by saying it is the church’s job to minister to sinners. Wilson writes, “the task of ministering to broken people is one of the central glories of the Christian church. For us, there are two causes of rejoicing in this. The first is that Christ came into the world for the sake of the screwed-up people.” However, not all sins have equal repercussions in this present world. A pedophile in the church is best described as a wolf in sheep’s clothing. People who sexually abuse children prey upon vulnerable lambs as wolves do. If the church treats pedophiles like any other Christian who struggles with any other sin, then it will sacrifice all its precious little lambs to the wolf. The church must not minister to wolves at the expense of the sheep. Children pay the cost when leaders do not respond appropriately to pedophiles. Pastors commonly mistake child sexual abuse as just another sin. Doing so removes the urgency from proactive child protection and demands a high cost in children’s lives.

Furthermore, Wilson’s responses are a failure of empathy. In the five public statements (statement 1, statement 2, statement 3, statement 4, statement 5) Wilson has issued in the past few days, never does he mention sorrow for this vulnerable baby who has been the victim of his pedophile father’s “heinous” behavior. Instead, Wilson’s public statements argue that he is one of the victims, saying, “This is because he [Sitler] provides an easy way for enemies of our ministry to attack us.” Instead of showing empathy for the victim, Wilson claims persecution. He sees himself as a victim. Such a posture is hurtful to true victims and discourages true victims from coming forward.

It needs to be investigated whether other victims have not come forward in the Sitler case or others, because Doug Wilson has blamed victims (for example here, here, and here), and supported offenders in court (see public testimony here). Also discouraging victims from coming forward is Wilson’s minimization of Sitler’s crimes as only one count of lewd conduct: “The twittermob has been circulating numerous untruths, among them that Steven Sitler is a child rapist. He was actually convicted of one count of Lewd Conduct with a Minor under 16 years of age (Idaho Code 18-1508).” This is an inexcusable minimization of child sexual abuse. You can read the awful reality of what constitutes Lewd Conduct with a Minor in Idaho here. You can also read an account of a victim’s family in court records describing how Sitler lured their two year old into an isolated situation and forced the toddler to kiss his erect penis.

Without proactive leadership on child protection, kids in any setting are vulnerable. Leaders must speak strongly on behalf of victims. Ecclesiastes 4:1 captures the dynamic well, “Again I saw all the oppressions that are done under the sun. And behold, the tears of the oppressed, and they had no one to comfort them! On the side of their oppressors there was power, and there was no one to comfort them.” Doug Wilson’s public statements defend himself; they fortress his power instead of humbling owning his errors, learning from experts in the field, and making changes for the future. When shepherds use their power to protect themselves, sheep are exposed.

Child sexual abuse hides in an environment of silence, shame, and fear. When leaders do not speak out and name these sins, offenders easily find victims, and most often children suffer in silence. Leadership must combat the silence, shame, and fear with vocal advocacy for safeguarding children and vocal support for victims. Wilson has failed to lead his people to this place of safety. Wilson helped create and lead this culture. He must own up to its failures and resolve to help change it.

A Plea to Leaders in the Reformed Community

As dismaying as Wilson’s actions have been, perhaps even more upsetting has been the silence from the Reformed corner of the evangelical church. There has been no outcry, no call of urgency for child protection, and no lamenting over yet another victim of preventable abuse. There are no voices taking up the cause of the voiceless (Prov 31:8-9). There are no rescuers to deliver the weak and afflicted from the hand of the wicked (Ps 82:1-4). There are no comforters for the oppressed. The oppressors have power, but victims have only their tears (Eccl 4:1). Victims in our churches are still waiting for those with power and influence in the Reformed corner of the church to come in on the side of the vulnerable and the oppressed.

Children would be spared the horrors of child sexual abuse if leaders would use their voice to call for child protection in our churches with urgency. Even though the powerful are not themselves at risk, are we willing to look beyond our own needs to the needs of others, even the little lambs that Jesus places at the center of his Kingdom (Phil 2:4; Mark 10:13-14)? Where are the voices of the leaders of Reformed churches and Reformed networks who can gain a hearing from Doug Wilson and influence thousands of other pastors in their denominations and circles of influence? Where are the voices from The Gospel Coalition? Crossway, why are you giving a voice to a man who will not use his voice for voiceless? Who is asking Wilson, “Where is your grieving heart for this baby and the other victims? What child protection training are you putting in place or experts are you consulting so this does not happen again?”

God calls all of us to use our power to protect the weak and asks us, “Is this not what it means to know me?” (Ps 82:1-4; Jer 22:9). No matter how small the church we can choose to safeguard children. There is a silent epidemic of child sexual abuse in the church and those sitting in darkness are waiting for leaders with a voice to speak for them. How long will they wait?

Comments

Doug Wilson’s Failure to Safeguard Children – Guest Post — 309 Comments

  1. Where are the voices from The Gospel Coalition?

    They’re too busy praising C.J. Mahaney to care about protecting children. I don’t recall a single one of them saying a word when Nate Morales was convicted in May 2014.

  2. The voice of one victim (of Wight, not Sitler) is being heard!
    Buried in the comments section of Statement 5, she has an exchange with Wilson.
    Here are some brief excerpts.
    Douglas Wilson:
    You can ask me anything you want.
    I am very sorry about the sins that were committed against you, and I wish you well. God bless.
    Natalie:
    Thanks for the well wishes.
    ….
    I’d like to ask you: Do you stand by your decision to defend Jamin in writing to the magistrate judge and request leniency for him?
    ***************************
    Looking forward to Wilson’s answer to this.

  3. This was very well written and thorough, I am truly sorry to all the victims involved. I honestly dont Get DW.

  4. I don’t understand how people read 1 Cor 5:9-13 and then stick up for child molesters. (or serial adulterers, as has been in vogue lately) I am also constantly amazed at the American justice system. One year in prison for what he did? His child should have never had contact with him, and never should in the future. It’s all so terrible. I am glad God will bring justice to situations like this.

  5. singleman wrote:

    Where are the voices from The Gospel Coalition? They’re too busy praising C.J. Mahaney to care about protecting children. I don’t recall a single one of them saying a word when Nate Morales was convicted in May 2014.

    It's not just about praising CJ. It's about covering their own butts.

    They invested heavily in CJ, and stubbornly defended him even after the cr@# (ed.) hit the fan. At a certain point, they defend CJ not out of an altruistic concern for their brother, but to defend their own reputation, which had been interwoven so closely with CJ's.

  6. A Plea to Leaders in the Reformed Community

    Save your breath and bandwidth.

    God’s Predestined Elect Can Do No Wrong. (HUMBLY, of course — chuckle chuckle)

    Their Theology is Perfectly Parsed and Truly Reformed, they have God All Figured Out, and all else (like protecting children from molesters) is Heresy or Fleshly or Worldly.

    P.S. WOMAN, SUBMIT!

  7. Jeremy wrote:

    I am also constantly amazed at the American justice system. One year in prison for what he did? His child should have never had contact with him, and never should in the future. It’s all so terrible.

    From what I was reading on Facebook today in Idaho, their state’s residents are outraged by the Sitler case (and other ones) and want their laws changed and made much stricter.
    https://www.facebook.com/PalouseNews?fref=photo

    Additionally, in August 2015 the Idaho Supreme Court handed down a decision siding with child sexual abuse victims to people able to sue those organizations who got them sexually abused: http://www.clearwatertribune.com/news/online_only_news/idaho-supreme-court-rules-survivors-of-boy-scout-and-mormon/article_45674bbe-5035-11e5-83c1-674476584a73.html

  8. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Save your breath and bandwidth.

    A June 2013 post on the vintage73 site was a plea for the PCA to deal forthrightly with child abuse, I don’t know if it came to much. The rest of your response they would judge harshly as cynicism but I see little evidence in their ranks that you are wrong.

  9. “The Bible is clear that, at best, words are only the beginning of repentance, and that repentance is a heart change that must bear fruit over time in actions (Luke 3:8-14). In fact, a repentant pedophile would not argue for a limited punishment, but instead, accept the full legal consequences of the crimes”.
    This is what I have been saying for years: REAL repentence would show itself in acceptance of the punishment for the crime. Not in weaseling out of as much as possible.

  10. I can’t believe the last few posts from Wilson; they actually made me feel gross while reading them. Just as bad are the people defending him tooth and claw in the comments and on twitter. If this is what “faithful” Christianity looks like, then I want nothing to do with it…..

  11. Corbin wrote:

    I can’t believe the last few posts from Wilson; they actually made me feel gross while reading them. Just as bad are the people defending him tooth and claw in the comments and on twitter. If this is what “faithful” Christianity looks like, then I want nothing to do with it…..

    Corbin, I’m here to tell you that this is NOT what faithful Christianity looks like.

  12. Darlene wrote:

    this is NOT what faithful Christianity looks like.

    I 100% agree. I think I’m just noting how I’m changing. Christian culture is feeling increasingly dark and distant for me. It’s a little sad and lonely, to be sure; but there’s also a purer and, I guess, more innocent(?) desire for wisdom and truth.

  13. Finally!

    This is such an excellent piece that any analysis would only serve to detract.

    They have identified the common sinful behavior that we have seen in all of these situations – Wilson, Mahaney, Chandler, and others.

    When is any one of these men simply going to stand up publicly and own their errors?

    Their failure to do so, and the rallying of their friends and supporters around them , their defensiveness, their attacking those who point out the problems, and their claiming to be persecuted, only serves to exacerbate the disappointment and anger that people have toward them and keeps the account fresh and alive.

    I am praying for some clear and simple repentance in all of these situations.

  14. Tim and Mary Lee’s son, Joseph, has written an excellent post on Bayly Blog. As has Katie Botkin on her own blog, who grew up in that world and knows DW quite well.

  15. @ Patty in Massachusetts:

    As has Katie Botkin on her own blog, who grew up in that world and knows DW quite well.

    This should serve as a clue for outsiders to patriarchy, as to how small and insular it is. Katie Botkin grew up in Doug Wilson’s orbit, and she’s the cousin/relative of Anna Sofia and Elizabeth Botkin, who are the children of Geoff Botkin, who stumped for Vision Forum which was run by Doug Phillips. The connections are all over the place…which makes it all the more dangerous for these folks when someone (like Katie Botkin) decides to start talking.

    Also, the OP was probably the best summary of the situation I’ve read so far.

  16. I am not a psychologist, nor do I play one on TV. However, DW appears to have a raging case of narcissism (religious variety). A narcissist sees people as tools to use, toys to play with, or obstacles to be destroyed. They worship their own image (not the actual self, the image they have carefully created). They love flattery.

    Sitler, like other pedophiles, is probably a master manipulator. All he had to do was say that he was sorry for his sins. I bet he cried. Then Sitler received a few hours “counseling” (listening to DW pontificate, no doubt) so Sitler could proclaim that he’d had an internal change and it was all due to DW’s influence. DW was Sitler’s “Saviour.” Yay! Another trophy for DW to put on his shelf! And what about Sitler? He was playing the long-term game and knew that if he had a religious leader in his back pocket he would eventually gain easy access to children.

    Now that Sitler has possibly re-offended DW is in a pickle. The Discernment Divas and their twittermob are trying to take away his trophy! This might damage his carefully nurtured image! Since DW doesn’t really “see” other people he can’t see the victims. All he sees is the danger to his image. Yes, he thinks all of this is an attack on him; and of course, his response is to defend himself.

    In my opinion every time a religious leader ignores the victims and protects a criminal, they are displaying evidence of narcissism.

  17. This is an excellent summation. I noticed one intended link that wasn’t activated. Under Arena 3, the following paragraph ends with an intended link “here:”

    “The twittermob has been circulating numerous untruths, among them that Steven Sitler is a child rapist. He was actually convicted of one count of Lewd Conduct with a Minor under 16 years of age (Idaho Code 18-1508).” This is an inexcusable minimization of child sexual abuse. You can read the awful reality of what constitutes Lewd Conduct with a Minor in Idaho here.

    I mention this small detail because the reference is key to exposing the minimization of crimes against children. And also because I believe this summary will serve as a much read and referenced piece.

  18. “Where are the voices of the leaders of Reformed churches and Reformed networks who can gain a hearing from Doug Wilson and influence thousands of other pastors in their denominations and circles of influence? Where are the voices from The Gospel Coalition? Crossway, why are you giving a voice to a man who will not use his voice for voiceless? Who is asking Wilson, “Where is your grieving heart for this baby and the other victims? What child protection training are you putting in place or experts are you consulting so this does not happen again?””

    This one still sticks out to me, at the close of an excellent article.

    I haven’t been around this too long, but so far in the stories I’ve seen, the only “big name” that has anything to say when a scandal of this nature breaks within the camp is Boz T.

    They have everything to say when Rob Bell “goes off the theological rails”, or Target relabels toys, or Hillary Clinton farts, but if it’s just a couple of abused folks?

    Nah. To borrow a phrase from John Piper, they’re “small potatoes”, unworthy of giving audience to. They’ll judge those who are without, and vehemently, but not their own camp.

    Thanks to Mike and Beth for writing this. In the exact same way every line of DW’s posts gets me to throw things, every line of this post is a breath of fresh air. Glad there’s still rational folks with heart in the ministry.

    Dare I say – isn’t it nice when men and women work together on something like this? The balance is beautiful.

  19. @ Bill M: The PCA did adopt a very comprehensive statement at its general (ed.) assembly last year.

    Boz Tchividjian wrote about it praising the actions:

    "This acknowledgment was demonstrated this past week when the entire General Assembly (annual meeting of pastors) of the theologically conservative Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) unanimously and publicly adopted Overture 6 – perhaps the most robust statement on child protection adopted by any Christian denomination. Though I was honored to serve alongside some amazing folks in drafting this historic resolution, I was quite skeptical that such a strongly worded statement would be embraced by the broader constituency of this denomination. Once again, I was left amazed at what happens when God moves on behalf of little ones and the vulnerable."

    – See more at: http://boz.religionnews.com/2014/06/20/denomination-confronts-child-sexual-abuse-positive-step-forward/#sthash.4kplC4mD.dpuf

  20. @ Janet Varin:
    Oh my gosh, yes. RL Stollar from HSA had a post about that. That’s the most disgusting thing DW has said so far, imo.

    Why don’t you get down on the level of that poor child who experienced that, and say “you weren’t raped, honey, that was just lewd conduct”??

    How in the name of all that’s holy can you say something like that?? It’s monstrous – a complete lack of empathy!

  21. Thank you, Deb and Dee, for hosting this guest post! And THANK YOU, Mike and Beth, for this powerful, prophetic article.

    Thank you, Rachel, for beating me to it! I was in the process of tracking down Boz’s article myself (so I am going to include the link once more for emphasis, ha ha: http://boz.religionnews.com/2014/06/20/denomination-confronts-child-sexual-abuse-positive-step-forward/ )

    As I understand it, the authors of the guest post, Mike and Beth, were the driving forces behind my denomination (the Presbyterian Church in America)’s 2014 statement, which was UNANIMOUSLY ADOPTED. If you know anything about my denomination, it is incredibly rare for us to be unanimous about any policy changes or cultural declarations. I agree with (fellow PCA member) Boz Tchividjian’s assessment:

    “I was left amazed at what happens when God moves on behalf of little ones and the vulnerable.

    This statement doesn’t pull any punches. Not only does it acknowledge that child sexual abuse is an epidemic in our culture, it concludes that the silence of the church renders it complicit before God. It urges all church leaders to use their influence to protect children, including preaching and teaching against child sexual abuse and exposing those who abuse. It is also significant that this resolution implores the church to compassionately support survivors.

    Perhaps the most important and unique aspect of this adopted resolution is its call for action. It directs the various departments of the denomination to review their policies and practices related to the protection of children and the response to abuse disclosures. They are also directed to develop future plans on how to help educate the denomination on issues related to child sexual abuse. In order to prevent these denomination transforming tasks from disappearing into oblivion, this resolution requires a full report at next year’s meeting.”

    Again, this was passed UNANIMOUSLY. Thank you, Mike and Beth and Boz and Diane Langberg, and all others being used by God to continue to renew and reform our particular expression of the Church of Jesus Christ. There are no Doug Wilson’s in my denomination that I know of, and if there are, we will drive them out. Crossway, Christianity Today, The Gospel Coalition (trademark!), and all others who have empowered Doug Wilson never will (the basis of their unity is $$$ and influence), but the Church of Jesus Christ (united under one God, one faith, and one baptism) will:

    OVERTURE 6 – “Child Protection in the PCA”

    Whereas our Lord Jesus demonstrated his righteous anger at his own disciples, rebuking those who would do anything to prevent children from coming unto him, saying “to such belongs the Kingdom of God,” (Mark 10:14) and condemning those who would harm children, saying “it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea” (Matthew 18:6); and

    Whereas an epidemic of child sexual abuse exists in our culture, with the vast majority of such children being harmed by someone they know and trust, wounding children physically,
    emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually with lifelong ripple effects; and

    Whereas the silence of the church – when we fail to appropriately address “rape, incest,
    sodomy and all unnatural lusts” (WLC 139) by not reporting disclosures of child sexual abuse, or not caring for those who disclose child sexual abuse, or not proactively taking steps to prevent child sexual abuse – is a fundamental failure of servant leadership, rendering the church complicit and culpable before the Lord, driving people away from the safety, healing and hope of Jesus Christ; and

    Whereas Scripture warns leaders against the “careless exposing, or leaving [those in their care] to wrong, temptation, and danger” (WLC 130), and every jurisdiction acknowledges that child sexual abuse is a serious felony and has its own mandated reporting laws;

    Therefore, be it resolved that we exhort all church leaders to become informed and to take an active stance toward preventing child sexual abuse in the church by screening staff and
    volunteers, training them in child protection, and actively maintaining child protection policies pertaining to our obligations to love our children and protect their rightful interests as God’s image-bearers from the devastating actions of abusers (Matthew 18:5-6; WLC 129-130); and

    Be it further resolved that we remind all churches that the heinous crime of child sexual abuse must be reported to duly appointed proper representatives of the God-ordained civil
    authorities, in accordance with local laws, and that we must cooperate with those authorities as they “bear the sword” to punish those who do evil “in such an effectual manner as that no person be suffered . . . to offer any indignity, violence, abuse, or injury to any other person whatsoever” (Romans 13:1-7; 1 Peter 2:13-14; WCF 23.3); and

    Be it further resolved that we urge all church leaders to use their influence for the protection of children, by any and all godly means, including preaching and teaching against the heinous sin of child sexual abuse, warning anyone with knowledge of these sins to “take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them” (Ephesians 5:11), and by supporting victims who often suffer in silence and shame without the vocal and compassionate support of the church; and

    Be it further resolved that we direct the Permanent Committees and Agencies of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church in America to review their policies, procedures and practices in the area of child protection, including their response to child sexual abuse disclosures, their faithfulness in reporting child sexual abuse to duly appointed proper representatives of the God-ordained civil authorities, in accordance with local laws, their care for survivors of child sexual abuse, and their future plans to help educate the PCA on child sexual abuse, and all other areas of response consistent with Scripture and the Constitution of the PCA, and report to the 43rd General Assembly through the Administrative Committee, after it has referred the matter to and received a report from the Cooperative Ministries Committee; and

    Be it finally resolved that the 42nd General Assembly urge all members of the PCA to renew our allegiance to our Lord Jesus by loving our children as he loves our children, “for to such belongs the Kingdom of God” (Mark 10:14)

  22. Corbin wrote:

    If this is what “faithful” Christianity looks like, then I want nothing to do with it…..

    I know a young woman who watched a church grossly mishandle a pedophile situation when she was teen. To this day, she still has not stepped foot in a church.

    One of the reasons I started writing this blog is to show people that there are some Christian willing to put themselves on the line for all of those who have been abused within the church setting.

    I do not blame you for your sentiment. We Christian deserve it when we remain silent in the presence of heinous abuse.

  23. **Update: 9/12/15: I placed this update in the original post about Sitler. I admit that I am confused. Something bad happened. he was removed from the home. I have changed the word molest to sexually abuse. I apologize for any confusion in this matter.

    “In light of the various reports coming out about Steven Sitler, it does seem possible that he is sexually stimulated while having contact with his baby. He has been removed from the house until new chaperones can be trained and placed. The question for me remains is this. If he was merely sexually stimulated while being with his baby and not outwardly acting on this stimulation, then how would the chaperones know this to be the case? It would seem unfair that his wife and parents, the former chaperones, would be removed from their role if this was something merely internal. So, what actually happened? Whatever happened it was serious enough to remove him from the home until nee and trained chaperones could watch him very, very closely. I apologize if I seem confused. I am and I used to work with abused children.” 

  24. brian wrote:

    I honestly dont Get DW.

    I feel the same way that you do. I do not get DW. He claims that we all hate him. He is wrong. We do not like his actions.

  25. Irene wrote:

    Since this guy violated his parole, will he go back to prison?

    I am most confused about this point. I am glad to hear that CPS is getting involved. Maybe they can sort this whole thing out.

  26. zooey111 wrote:

    REAL repentence would show itself in acceptance of the punishment for the crime. Not in weaseling out of as much as possible.

    I agree. Real repentance would exhibit itself in this way. He would not have married with the intent to have children.

  27. Anonymous wrote:

    I am praying for some clear and simple repentance in all of these situations.

    Years ago, I asked a local megapastor to talk with his friend, Mahaney. I expressed my hopes that Mahaney would own the issues and apologize for the mess. This was long before the lawsuit.

    Had Mahaney done so, he would not have been sued, IMO.Why don’t these men get apologies?

  28. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    In my opinion every time a religious leader ignores the victims and protects a criminal, they are displaying evidence of narcissism.

    Well said.

  29. Janet Varin wrote:

    This is an inexcusable minimization of child sexual abuse. You can read the awful reality of what constitutes Lewd Conduct with a Minor in Idaho her

    I posted the actual legal definition of Lewd Conduct under that post. It is quite damning.

  30. Corbin wrote:

    I can’t believe the last few posts from Wilson; they actually made me feel gross while reading them. Just as bad are the people defending him tooth and claw in the comments and on twitter. If this is what “faithful” Christianity looks like, then I want nothing to do with it…..

    In Matt. Ch. 7 , Jesus said: ” beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Yes all know them by their fruits.”
    IMHO, These people ARE NOT Christians. Just look at their fruit! But, they believe they are God’s ELECT, so they can do whatever they please!

  31. Where were the mighty men, the so called iron men when my baby was crying? These men are sitting in churches failing just as miserably as the fathers who abandon their own children in fact they are worse than this! Absent father’s are the typical result of being unbelievers. These men are doubly accountable sitting in the leadership with an awesome responsibility to lead many. They read, hear, and preach God’s word using His holy word to instruct Godly living on the rest yet fail our babies for their churches status, money, and reputation. I am mad I am hurt as I can never unknow what has been done and my heart is forever shattered. It would have been better had these supposed iron men said nothing rather than shove my son out for the sake of their perfect church and perfect families. We meant nothing he means nothing to a body of Christians who had him under their care for years. For this I don’t know how to process except to say that my heart grieves greatly still.

  32. This author is so articulate.

    The Gospel Coalition is too busy admiring one another/protecting each other to make this a priority.

  33. Thank you Beth and Mike for great post on the danger Doug Wilson poses to Christianity!

    Doug Wilson is more dangerous to Christianity than any evolutionist, old earthier, atheist, or other ‘liberal’ ever was. The foundation of Christianity is love of God and love of neighbor, yet DW is such a narcissist and so convinced of his own superiority that he clearly displays his inability to do either-I’ve never seen anything written or said by him that expresses the least bit of empathy for the victims of the pedophiles he has championed. Instead, he responds with not-so-clever insults of those that call him to account to dismiss them as not even worthy of a thoughtful response (most likely because he doesn’t have one). Moreover, with absolutely zero education, much less training, on dealing with pedophiles, he believes himself to be the only one capable of treating them and judging their ‘repentance’.

    And why is it that guys like DW, Matt Chandler, and Steve Furtick so blatantly ignore the victims of sexual criminals to spend their time with the perpetrators? My own thought is that in the culture of male superiority they have created, women and children are nothing more than disposable objects who, in their view, are little better than pets with no hint of imago dei.

    Is it any wonder that people are avoiding or abandoning Cristianity in droves when the most visible of its self-styled ‘leaders’ don’t even come close to exhibiting the love that is so fundamental to the faith and, instead, act as oppressors?

  34. Corbin wrote:

    I can’t believe the last few posts from Wilson; they actually made me feel gross while reading them. Just as bad are the people defending him tooth and claw in the comments and on twitter. If this is what “faithful” Christianity looks like, then I want nothing to do with it…..

    Darlene beat me to it, but “faithful” Christianity doesn’t look like that.

    My church has a child protection policy in place. Anyone working with children and youth, whether clergy or lay, paid or volunteer, must pass a background check and complete child protection classes. Faithful Christianity, among other things, protects children and youth.

  35. Corbin wrote:

    I can’t believe the last few posts from Wilson; they actually made me feel gross while reading them.

    I haven’t read them yet. I don’t know if I will. I did see quotes from them by other people on other sites.

    Either in a post or a comment to someone on his site someone else posted, Wilson actually wanted to split hairs over child sexual abuse, as if a grown adult forcing a toddler to kiss his you- know- what is just not a big deal, because it’s not up there with full blown rape (ie, or eg, sodomy or genital penetration). He was actually quibbling with someone over this.

    I don’t know if I can patiently read through a guy’s post where he’s all like,
    “Pashaw! ‘Twas nothing, a man forcing a kid to who-who on his wee-wee, who cares about that, it’s not like it was rape or anything! Calm down internet.”
    I might give that blog post a pass.

  36. @ pcapastor:
    So glad that your denom did this well, pcapastor. Satisfaction in a job done properly by those around you.

    If they went through all that work, listening to the people who know, I think there’s a very good chance that they’ll take it as seriously in life as they obviously do in writing. May it be so.

  37. @ Corbin:

    “I 100% agree. I think I’m just noting how I’m changing. Christian culture is feeling increasingly dark and distant for me. It’s a little sad and lonely, to be sure; but there’s also a purer and, I guess, more innocent(?) desire for wisdom and truth.”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    I know exactly how you feel.

    in the process of being outside of church culture, I have realized how much time & energy I have. I have made the most of the relationships right in my midst — people in my neighborhood, most without any religious persuasion. they are kind, honest, generous, giving souls free of ‘christian’ veneers and pressures. they have nothing to prove.

    knowing them is to experience the best of human nature, in a pure and true sense. this is what came to my mind when you mentioned ‘purer’, ‘wisdom’, and ‘truth’

    my experience is that religion in general and Christian culture especially add many layers of film to what is pure and true.

    it takes something basic and good and processes the dickens out of it in an effort to make it ‘new and improved’ to get people’s attention, as well as to create jobs for the people who design the processes and administrate the processes, and then in the end to have a product to sell (from a hand-held book to an event to an experience).

    it’s like velveeta cheese. compared to a hunk of parmesan in Parma-Reggio, Italy.

    it’s like a package of flurescent pink yogurt with a handy-dandy compartment for Trix cereal, compared to yogurt you can make at home with all the good bacteria intact and present.

    it’s like a raspberry poptart instead of a handful of raspberries.

  38. @ pcapastor:
    I’d read somewhere around that Beth and Mike are complementarians—don’t know if that’s so, but if so, it would show that the best and cleanest change comes from within.

    So I pray that wise loving clear-sighted people from within each of these groups will come forward and do what needs doing.

  39. And why is it that so many conservative ‘Christian ministers’ treat child molestors the same as if they had taken $5 from the till at their bake sale?

  40. marquis wrote:

    Where were the mighty men, the so called iron men when my baby was crying?

    I don’t know your story, but my heart goes out to you and your child.

  41. “Doug Wilson is more dangerous to Christianity than any evolutionist, old earther, athiest, or ‘liberal’ ever was.”

    Anybody want to guess what Christopher Hitchens would have said about this?

  42. Wilson continues to defend himself by saying it is the church’s job to minister to sinners. Wilson writes, “the task of ministering to broken people is one of the central glories of the Christian church.

    Wilson’s defense is really nothing new. I came across a book which had the lectures of Colonel Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899). In his criticism of Christianity, Ingersoll claimed that Christianity has it backwards. He indicated that the repentant sinner is given a second chance and is embraced by the church, but the victims of the repentant sinner do not get a second chance. Therefore, sinful behavior is rewarded by the church. Wilson’s focus on the Sitler seems to be in accord with Ingersoll’s criticism of Christianity.

  43. @ marquis:I am unfamiliar with your situation, but I want to respond with heartfelt sympathy for your grief. Frequently the children of single mothers–whether divorced, widowed or unmarried–do not receive the additional nurture they need from their church family. This is a tragic oversight.

  44. @ Patty in Massachusetts:

    “If the serial child molester desires to wed with the explicit intention of never having children, he is not seeking a biblical marriage.” Joseph Bayly

    One problem I have with all of these guys is their view of marriage. As we can see from the above quote, children are the primary goal of marriage. They are a thing to be gotten.

    Sitler had no choice but to say he wanted children if be wanted support from Wilson and their church. Would Doug have even married him if Sitler said he didn’t want children? Would he have been able to find a woman to marry him if he said it would be better for me to not have children? Would Sitler have had the support of Doug Wilson at all if he told Doug he shouldn’t have, and didn’t want, children?

    This all flows from their belief that married couples have to have children or they are not obeying God. Maybe obeying God, for Sitler any way, would be not having children. The wacko theology of the this church seems to not allow such a thing.

  45. Bridget, I agree and this is something I have been trying to highlight. So much of this problem comes down to theology.

  46. @ NJ:

    It is pretty insane to think that Wilson may have only supported Sitler if Sitler did agree to marry, and Sitler could only marry if he agreed to have children. Wilson said in one of his articles that he would do the same thing again — encourage Sitler to marry and have children. Wilson does not seem to understand that pedophiles are sexually stimulated by children instead of by adults.

  47. Bridget wrote:

    “If the serial child molester desires to wed with the explicit intention of never having children, he is not seeking a biblical marriage.” Joseph Bayly

    (Bridget said)
    One problem I have with all of these guys is their view of marriage. As we can see from the above quote, children are the primary goal of marriage. They are a thing to be gotten.

    I agree.

    I read this guy’s blog page yesterday, and while I was happy to see him forcefully speaking out against churches enabling child molesters (I use the terms ‘molester’ and ‘pedo’ interchangeably, btw)….

    I don’t know if I agree that under the new covenant that Christian married couples are expected or ordered by God to have children. I don’t see that being taught in the NT.

    Having kids was more an expectation, not divine order, under patriarchal OT culture.

    I just do not see sexual acts in marriage being acceptable (to God) only because they may possibly create children as being a demand or rule under the NT.

    If Christians want to fight what they consider hedonistic or selfish, self-centered sexual practices in secular culture, I wish they’d find another line of defense besides treating child-free or childless married couples as lepers, selfish twits, or failures, or treating singleness (especially celibates) as secondary status.

  48. Bridget wrote:

    Wilson does not seem to understand that pedophiles are sexually stimulated by children instead of by adults.

    I agree with your assessment.

    I think that Wilson thinks, or did at one time, that marriage to an opposite gender adult will cure (or curb) pedophilia, though he claims in a recent blog post from about a week ago he does not think that.

    I think he does. Why else marry off a known pedo to a non-pedo person?

  49. dee wrote:

    The question for me remains is this. If he was merely sexually stimulated while being with his baby and not outwardly acting on this stimulation, then how would the chaperones know this to be the case? It would seem unfair that his wife and parents, the former chaperones, would be removed from their role if this was something merely internal. So, what actually happened?

    Just to clarify, I’m not the Beth who authored the post:)

    When I first read the complaint, that was my assumption – that he had been aroused by his baby and not that he had physically molested him. My additional assumption was he had told his wife (and/or parents) about his thoughts and she/they did not report him, thus the chaperone failing.

  50. @ Daisy:

    I agree that he had some good things to say, but the article started out with the premise that to marry = having children. How does that give any hope to a repentant pedophile who wants to work out his salvation with fear and trembling by avoiding children? It’s like they are demanding that a repentant pedophile would have to marry and have children to prove repentance. None of these scenarios do anything to protect children from pedophiles. Nor does this address the issue of a pedophile misrepresenting himself to a woman who may then marry a man who will never be sexually attracted to her. The entire scenario is sick and puts the wife and future children into horrible circumstances.

  51. Irene wrote:

    Since this guy violated his parole, will he go back to prison?

    Unless the Kirk(TM) got to the parole board/local authorities in the case.

  52. dee wrote:

    brian wrote:
    I honestly dont Get DW.

    I feel the same way that you do. I do not get DW. He claims that we all hate him. He is wrong. We do not like his actions.

    But “There is only one Righteous, yea only One”, and his initials are DW, *NOT* JC.

  53. dee wrote:

    Had Mahaney done so, he would not have been sued, IMO.Why don’t these men get apologies?

    Because The ManaGAWD Can Do No Wrong.
    Only wipe his mouth and announce “I Have Not Sinned”.

  54. Daisy wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    Why else marry off a known pedo to a non-pedo person?

    According to one of his statements in the last week, his hands were tied. He represented ridiculously and hilariously that if two people wanted to get married and it was legal, who was he to not officiate.

    Dear gay people in Idaho wanting to get married in a Christian church, please see Doug Wilson. He is your guy now that it’s all legal.

  55. Since scripture says that if a man looks at a woman with lust in his heart, then he is committing adultery, then surely a man that looks or thinks about his child to get some type of sexual stimulation is a sin also? But way worse! How did we get to a Roman’s chapter one church where these types of disgusting behavior are not only tolerated but given a tacid, and almost hearty approval?

  56. @ dee:

    Don’t know if this helps, but the prosecutor has said some things that might help shed some light on what happened:

    http://moscowid.net/2015/09/11/latah-county-prosecutor-bill-thompson-shines/

    It apparently was disclosed to Dr. Wilson [no relation to Mr. Wilson — Ed.], although we don’t know exactly what Dr. Wilson understood to have been disclosed, because if Your Honor will remember when we were meeting last month on this, the disclosure we were dealing with at that point was merely a physical contact that resulted in a thought. We now have a disclosure that says there was physical contact that resulted in actual sexual stimulation — with his own child.

  57. Clay Crouch wrote:

    They are busy today promoting Doug Wilson’s book. Clueless.
    http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/book-reviews-writers-to-read-nine-names-belong-bookshelf

    I left this response. I doubt it will ever see the light of day.

    Right. Promote Douglas Wilson, a man who has advocated for two pedophiles, Jamin Wight and Steven Sitler. Over the last week, Wilson’s been going on about how he’s done the right things for Sitler over the last 10 years. That would include presiding over Sitler’s marriage to a young woman in Wilson’s church, a marriage the Idaho Department of Correction opposed.* Three years on, Sitler is the father of a baby boy, a child he currently cannot live with, because he gets sexually stimulated by his own baby’s presence.

    Here’s the details about Steven Sitler:
    http://sitler.moscowid.net/

    Here’s the letter Douglas Wilson sent to the father of Jamin Wight’s victim, in which Wilson threatens the father with loss of communion privileges and accuses the father of not protecting his daughter *from the man who was boarding with them* since Wight was attending Wilson’s Greyfriars “seminary.”

    http://kbotkin.com/2015/09/10/the-letter-on-christ-church-stationary/

    Why can’t The Gospel Coalition think of the victims for once? Instead, it’s make C.J. Mahaney, a man who covered up child abuse at his church, into a big-time speaker at your 2016 shindig. Instead, it’s promote Douglas Wilson’s book. No, these things are absolute slaps in the faces of victims and those who advocate for them.

    You do not care for the least among you, all you care is power, pride, and dare I say it, male privilege. You people are disgusting. If there’s a Last Judgment, I’m pointing to you all as an example of why I stayed away from the church, because it was all about your privilege.

    –Deana M. Holmes

    *From a legal standpoint, I understand why the Idaho DoC said what it said, and I understand also why the judge ruled the way he did. No judge wants his courtroom turned into a circus over a basic right and that’s exactly what would have happened. But one would think people would step back in the face of such opposition. NOBODY DID.

  58. @ Daisy:
    2 corinthians 2 says that the immoral brother must be forgiven. The problem is that many are content to use discipline to expel the righteous who want to warn the others so that the immorals in their midst can be forgiven.

  59. @ Hester:

    I also saw this, it’s doubly damning:

    As far as the line-of-sight supervision we may be . . . we may be talking about a situation that is of no ultimate consequence anyway because it is my understanding based on the disclosures known to the Department today that they are revoking the chaperone status of Mr. Sitler’s parents, because as pointed out, as disclosed in the most recent polygraph interview, there were historic events that apparently were shared with one or both of Mr. Sitler’s parents of Mr. Sitler becoming sexually aroused observing a young female on a vacation trip — none of that was reported although the chaperone agreements require them to report that.

    It’s my understanding that Sitler is a Ph.D student in chemistry at the University of Idaho. Now I know that the vast, vast majority of people at the average university are adults. But I also know that during weekends, intersession periods and summers, universities rent out their properties to make a little extra coin. If Sitler is really going to the University of Idaho campus, who is keeping an eye on him there? Who is going to keep him from possibly coming into contact with a child on a field trip, or excitedly staying a week at a summer camp housed at the university?

    Heck, how can he even go shopping?

  60. Dave A A wrote:

    Looking forward to Wilson’s answer to this.

    So far, no answer to Natalie in the comments on his blog or hers.
    He’s been busy, instead, deleting the comments of his enemies and posting a new article about it. Answering the victim’s questions, as he promised her, will just have to wait a bit, apparently.

  61. @ Dave A A:
    Oh, my mistake! He said she could ask anything she wanted– not that he’d answer.
    One promising thing, I suppose, is that he actually typed the words “I am very sorry about the sins that were committed against you” to a sex abuse victim.
    Inquiring minds might wonder to whose sins he refers.

  62. The fact that DW diminishes this act by saying it is not as bad as “rape” is mind boggling..

    . As all this pressure continues, not just on DW, the other “leaders” will continue to make these comments that just boggle the mind, and we will see them for what they really are…. This is the “beauty” of the Internet, these “leaders” can not keep there mouth (figures) shut and they will continue to show us their true colors….I still can not get my hand around all things Driscoll said and that was all over the Internet… Their own vanity of hearing themselves talk is their undoing..

    dee wrote:

    if

  63. @ dee:
    Can you imagine a child’s first memory being that he was forced to kiss a man’s genitals? That will mar the child for life. The child will be in counseling for years once he remembers it and wonders why he acts certain ways.

  64. @ pcapastor:
    Wow!!. I applaud the Presbyterian church for making this statement. Every church in the country should have this same statement. I don’t care what denomination your are, but it should be in every church and posted so everyone can see it.

  65. harley wrote:

    Can you imagine a child’s first memory being that he was forced to kiss a man’s genitals?

    It breaks my heart. I have been having a difficult time this week, trying to integrate how those who know the love of Christ would not prioritize loving and caring first for the victim. I am working with some victims behind the scenes as well. Once again, churches have abused the victims and are protecting the pedophile.

    In a week, my husband and I are going to Sanibel Island. I really need to look at something beautiful.

  66. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    The fact that DW diminishes this act by saying it is not as bad as “rape” is mind boggling..

    I do not know what is going on in his mind. I just wish he would say he is sorry for being insensitive. Anything to show some empathy.

  67. Rachel wrote:

    Being sorry for someone else’s sins is not the same as admitting your own.

    Yep! And it is hard to admit your sins if you believe that you are somehow a bit smarter and more righteous and doctrinally sound than others. I rally appreciate my new church which does a confession of sins each week followed by an assurance that one’s sins are forgiven. It gives me such peace.

  68. Dave A A wrote:

    He’s been busy, instead, deleting the comments of his enemies and posting a new article about it.

    I offered to post on TWW anything Wilson would like to write and explain if TWW was wrong in anything we have written. I have offered to visit him in Moscow and I am dead serious.So far, no response.

  69. @ mirele:
    I enjoyed reading your comments at Doug Wilson’s blog. You are truly a warrior fr those who are abused. I cannot wait to meet you one of these days.

  70. @ Rachel:
    Yep– no one could mistake this for an apology of any sort.
    As I type, the victim’s Dad Gary Greenfield is typing comments to Wilson So far he’s going down memory lane a bit. Bought Wilson his first computer! Millions of words later….

  71. I left this comment on TGC blog post (posted yesterday – a puff piece about Wilson heavily plugging his latest book):

    “Nicely timed plug for Douglas Wilson. As long as a leader’s doctrine is Reformed and patriarchal, TGC will be their friend come what may. A blind eye will be turned to errant theology, gross pastoral negligence and breath-taking narcissism.”

  72. dee wrote:

    I have offered to visit him in Moscow and I am dead serious.So far, no response.

    That’s OK! A commenter named Dave (no relation) offered to answer Mirele’s questions if and only if she visits him in Moscow. You could likely show up as well. 🙂

  73. Dave A A wrote:

    That’s OK! A commenter named Dave (no relation) offered to answer Mirele’s questions if and only if she visits him in Moscow. You could likely show up as well.

    Why couldn’t this have blown up a month ago? I was in Spokane last month and it wouldn’t have been that difficult to rent a car and drive over to Moscow. That said, I wouldn’t meet with any of the Christ Church fan club unless it was in public. Bucer’s Coffeehouse/Pub might work. (Bucer was the name of a German Protestant Reformer and I would bet money that the owner of the location is somehow influenced by Ye Olde Douglas.)

  74. Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    According to one of his statements in the last week, his hands were tied. He represented ridiculously and hilariously that if two people wanted to get married and it was legal, who was he to not officiate.
    Dear gay people in Idaho wanting to get married in a Christian church, please see Doug Wilson. He is your guy now that it’s all legal.

    I’ve read some comments online by DW defenders and have realized that when DW uses the word “Lawful” he doesn’t mean legal in the normal sense. He has taken a perfectly good word and changed it to mean something else (which is a common characteristic of a cult).

    When DW said that he is bound to perform a marriage ceremony if it’s “lawful” he means if it fits within his own personal interpretation of scriptural guidelines for marriage. So if someone is divorced and Dougie doesn’t like the reasons for the divorce, he would proclaim a second marriage to be unlawful and he wouldn’t do it. On the other hand if a convicted pedophile wants to marry a virgin…well that’s “lawful,” so no problem.

  75. Jamie Carter wrote:
    2 corinthians 2 says that the immoral brother must be forgiven.

    To forgive someone is one thing, but to allow them to continue to repeat the same offense over and over is not part of the package. Especially when it is something so heinous. If my dog bites your child and a couple of other children and I say, “It’s okay. He didn’t mean to hurt your kids”, how many people would allow my dog near their children?

  76. mirele wrote:

    Bucer’s Coffeehouse/Pub might work. (Bucer was the name of a German Protestant Reformer and I would bet money that the owner of the location is somehow influenced by Ye Olde Douglas.)

    Are you reading the same comments on the Mablog that I am?
    From Gary:
    “while keeping arms length between my family and Christ Church elders with whom I found myself increasingly at odds. During this time, my wife and I remained heavily involved in Christian ministry within the Moscow community, not only as owners of Bucer’s Coffeehouse Pub…”

  77. That said, I wouldn’t want to meet with the fan club even in public. Not so brave as you are. Now if Wilson wants to debate/converse in public with you or Boz or Julie Anne or Dee etc, I’d find a way to attend.

  78. JeffT wrote:

    Christ Church
    Moscow, ID
    “Happy Hunting Ground for Pedophiles”
    Doug Wilson, Gamekeeper

    No. Doug Wilson, Hunting Guide.

  79. Wartburg Watch readers, I want to let you all know that Gary Greenfield, the father of Natalie Rose – who was sexually abused by Jamin Wight – is addressing Doug Wilson in the comment section over at Blog and Mablog under the blog post titled: “The Only Kind of Gospel There Is.” I think this father shows much grace and kindness for having been treated so wrongly by Wilson and Christ Church. His comments are worth reading in that they reveal how a true disciple of Christ ought to conduct themselves.

  80. Daisy wrote:

    I might give that blog post a pass.

    It’s painful to read, but I think it’s good to do it anyway. Wilson further confirms some of the things we’ve thought about him. Also, I wonder if these posts might magically disappear or be heavily edited as more information come to light….

  81. By the way, I have been posting over at Blog and Mablog trying to get Mr. Wilson to see the error of his ways. Also, addressing some of the more absurd comments of Wilson’s supporters in the comment section. I post as Nonna, my baptized name.

  82. elastigirl wrote:

    it’s like velveeta cheese. compared to a hunk of parmesan in Parma-Reggio, Italy.
    it’s like a package of flurescent pink yogurt with a handy-dandy compartment for Trix cereal, compared to yogurt you can make at home with all the good bacteria intact and present.
    it’s like a raspberry poptart instead of a handful of raspberries.

    Exactly. I have an older brother who I think is somewhere between a vague agnosticism and atheism. He can be volatile and dangerous at times, to put it mildly. However, whenever I’m with him, there’s a sense of reality that I don’t experience with other Christians (except for other family members). It’s a feeling of visceral honesty; a directness that often feels more truthful than the fragile semantics of Christianese.

  83. Darlene wrote:

    By the way, I have been posting over at Blog and Mablog trying to get Mr. Wilson to see the error of his ways. Also, addressing some of the more absurd comments of Wilson’s supporters in the comment section. I post as Nonna, my baptized name.

    You are a brave lady for reading and posting over there. I can’t stomach it today. I am getting ready to go to a fun birthday party and I don’t want to ruin my mood. If you feel like and you post over there, would you please tell Natalie’s father that I am so sorry that their church was going to deny them communion, and that I would have personally bought the elements and flown to Idaho and driven to be with this wonderful, good father and his precious daughter and had communion with them.

  84. What if Sitler were to take a polygraph test regarding his repentance. Think we all know what the outcome would be

  85. @ Darlene:
    I’ve appreciated your comments as I’ve lurked. I’ve also copied Gary’s story– just in case some technological lummox happens and it disappears. A good summary statement, “It all became clear to me as I was sitting in church one Sunday and I asked myself if the Holy Spirit was really here with us.”
    Doug has replied to tell him he can’t really say anything without revealing secret stuff, but Doug has yet to answer Natlalie’s question.

  86. Also, Doug again expressed sympathy, “I am very sorry for the grief you have gone through.”

  87. @ Nancy2:I’ve been saying this for years, actions like this show they are not fit to lead.

    The New Testament’s dealing with elders (pastors were either chosen from the group, or the group functioned as pastors when these letter were written) states they need to be above reproach, have their own house in order, etc. There is no way they can lead while need to repent of failure to pastor properly. Sin is for not following God properly in your own life, but leading others by sinning isn’t something the church is supposed to just forgive and forget. As it stands, Driscoll’s, Wilson’s and Mahoney’s failure disqualify them from holding the title “elder” in the NT church. Without that title, they aren’t pastors. So, I propose we call them what they are: Fake Pastors.

    No wonder Wilson can’t council this guy properly, he is a fake pastor. No wonder CJ couldn’t figure out he was supposed to call the police when certain things came to light, he was a fake pastor. If that sounds harsh, just imagine if these guys were calling themselves medical doctors. Oops, wrong leg! Oops, carp, I forgot about the Liver there! What, I can’t prescribe codeine with steroids – heart failure, gah! Well, it is your duty to forgive me! …I repented, now climb up on that operating table, I’ve got my un-sanitized scalpel ready to go. Don’t question me you bitter patient. I’ll post a comment on how you are just haters. God forgave me for cutting off your kid’s leg, why don’t you?

    Forgiving NEVER means excusing. It is a mantra I live by.

  88. @ Darlene:

    Grace, humility, kindness, love and assorted fruits of the Spirit are not important and greatly manifest by DW and people of his kind. Doctrine and ideology and paramount, and as long you believe the “correct” thing, well then, you are in the God’s Special Few Club.

  89. @ Patrice:
    …of whom, Gary Greenfield wrote: “…a person who had gone from being someone I respected and was proud to call my friend to being a meglomaniac and control freak.”

  90. @ Darlene:
    Sorry, Darlene, I hadn’t seen that you’d posted about this already. It’s past the first “load more comments” tab.

  91. Dave A A wrote:

    “while keeping arms length between my family and Christ Church elders with whom I found myself increasingly at odds. During this time, my wife and I remained heavily involved in Christian ministry within the Moscow community, not only as owners of Bucer’s Coffeehouse Pub…”

    No, because I’d given myself a break from Blog and Mablog. I guess I need to wander back?

  92. @ Bridget:
    Oh, maybe it’s because I set the combox to “oldest” rather than “best” or “newest”. Go to bottom of first comment stretch and click “load more comments”. Should be about halfway down that second stretch.

  93. @ Bridget:
    They’re difficult to get to — got to keep loading more and more comments if your preference is set “newest”.

  94. mirele wrote:

    No, because I’d given myself a break from Blog and Mablog. I guess I need to wander back?

    Oh, not worth it. Doug’s censoring comments now.

    It wouldn’t even be worth meeting with the guy. But he needs to deal with the fact that he’s supported pedophiles over against their victims for a long time now.

  95. @ mirele:
    You did an excellent job, mirele. I was delighted to read you there. Makes sense you’re worn of it; some very ugly people on that site.

  96. @ mirele:
    He seems to have banned several of the most interesting commenters. One was, I think, out of line but the others were civil — just persistent.
    Must have been serendipity that you mentioned that coffee house. I wasn’t familiar with it at all, despite numerous visits to Moscow. But it plays a significant role in this story.

  97. Thank you, you will know my story soon. I am still bearing the wounds of what was done and I wish it didn’t still hurt so much. My son is the true victim I am just a mother who grieves his loss. I can never unknow what I know and my heart hurts. Sometimes it takes my breath away but in God’s grace He has brought me through. Our lives have joy mixed with grief. I don’t understand yet what His plans are with this except to say Exodus 22:22-24 You shall not afflict any widow or fatherless child. If you afflict them in any way, and they cry at all to Me, I will surely hear their cry and my wrath will become hot and I will kill you with the sword, your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless.@ Debi Calvet:

  98. @ mirele:
    You have fought the good fight. I wish more we could be done. For all his tough talk, Wilson is a bully who hides behind the skirts of others when confronted with inconvenient truths. A number of his strident supporters are just plain evil in their comments. How incredibly sad.

  99. Kathleen wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    Is Gary Greenfield posting under his own name? I can’t find anything by him in the comments section. Thanks

    Yes he is. Sometimes the comments get buried over there but if you search under Wilson’s post entitled, “The Only Kind of Gospel There Is” you should find Gary Greenfield’s comments.

  100. marquis wrote:

    (God promised) “I will surely hear their cry “

    Sometimes it’s only promises like this which can bring comfort. Though hopefully we here can be of help. Making mention of you in my prayers.

  101. And here we have it again…Doug Wilson’s denials. Someone with the handle CREC Member, commented: “I would like to understand how you could do any of these things and still lead our denomination.” This CREC member sent 3 links to Doug Wilson’s blog, one from Natalie Rose’ blog, one from Katie Botkin’s blog, and the Vintage73 article that was posted here a TWW. All 3 blogs addressed Wilson’s wrongdoing in handling sex abuse/pedophilia. Wilson’s reply to the concerned CREC member: “…the short answer is that I didn’t do all those things.” Hmmmm…..Let the reader understand.
    https://dougwils.com/the-church/true-glue.html#comment-2250812827

  102. Dave A A wrote:

    Must have been serendipity that you mentioned that coffee house. I wasn’t familiar with it at all, despite numerous visits to Moscow. But it plays a significant role in this story.

    I pulled up Google Maps and looked for some place close to New St. Andrews, after my first attempt at finding a Dennys didn’t pan out. And I know that Martin Bucer was an early Protestant Reformer. It was just a lucky guess.

  103. You know, when I was quite a bit younger, I would have found Douglas Wilson’s world quite seductive. He gives off an air of erudition and education. His college sounds like a place of learning–“New St. Andrews.” And there’s a long history of scholarship from Presbyterian and Reformed types in America. They wear academic robes there! And it’s “liberal,” in a sense, because the professors have no problem going out for a beer, rather like the profs at the secular university where I eventually landed. They don’t play football-they play rugby.

    But the reality is rather different. They may wear academic robes in their promotional videos, but New St. Andrews meets in a red brick building in downtown Moscow, Idaho. It’s not exactly Oxford, Cambridge, or even Harvard Yard.* There are only a handful of academics and Wilson himself only holds two BAs and a MA (as in, no, he does not have a terminal degree like a Ph.D, Th.D, Ed.D or even a D.D.). Christ Church itself doesn’t have a church, it meets in a field house at Logos School. NSA has no women on their named faculty (it’s possible they have adjuncts), but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that the entire staff was completely male, in keeping with Douglas Wilson’s patriarchy.

    In short, it’s a Potemkin pseudo-university. I’m glad (although I was surely annoyed at the time) when my dad basically dumped a load of university catalogues on me and said, “Pick one. You’re going away to school. He wasn’t going to let me slide through junior college and then on to the local university. He wanted better for me. He would have seen through Wilson’s facade, even though the guy never attended a day of college. But I know me–I would have been seduced. And I can see how people would be seduced even today.

    ——–
    *I remember 20 years ago going on a walk around Harvard and Harvard Yard and being so terribly, terribly jealous that I had not gone there. The guy giving me the tour, an MIT grad, told me I needed to get over it because I had gone to one of the best state universities in America and gotten a very good education. He was right, of course.

  104. Val wrote:

    No wonder Wilson can’t council this guy properly, he is a fake pastor. No wonder CJ couldn’t figure out he was supposed to call the police when certain things came to light, he was a fake pastor. If that sounds harsh, just imagine if these guys were calling themselves medical doctors.

    Well, a lot of them collect HONORARY Doctorates…

  105. mirele wrote:

    Why couldn’t this have blown up a month ago? I was in Spokane last month and it wouldn’t have been that difficult to rent a car and drive over to Moscow. That said, I wouldn’t meet with any of the Christ Church fan club unless it was in public.

    Same rules as if you were meeting with David Miscavige or any of his fan club (i.e. Sea Org)?

  106. The Gospel Coalition article puffing off Wilson’s book shows 0 comments now.
    Chickens.
    So much for “gospel truth(tm)”.

  107. By the way, Doug just started moderating comments over at his blog. A few people have already been banned – one in particular who had excellent comments and addressed Wilson’s complicity in the Sitler case. I think the heat is on and Wilson knows it. Gotta control the dissent.

  108. Joe2 wrote:

    Wilson continues to defend himself by saying it is the church’s job to minister to sinners. Wilson writes, “the task of ministering to broken people is one of the central glories of the Christian church.

    Wilson’s defense is really nothing new. I came across a book which had the lectures of Colonel Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899). In his criticism of Christianity, Ingersoll claimed that Christianity has it backwards. He indicated that the repentant sinner is given a second chance and is embraced by the church, but the victims of the repentant sinner do not get a second chance. Therefore, sinful behavior is rewarded by the church. Wilson’s focus on the Sitler seems to be in accord with Ingersoll’s criticism of Christianity.

    What struck me in reading the quote about Wilson, was the thought that the victims of pedophiles area broken as well. Don’t they need ministering, mercy, and grace, too?

  109. “You know, when I was quite a bit younger, I would have found Douglas Wilson’s world quite seductive. He gives off an air of erudition and education. His college sounds like a place of learning–“New St. Andrews.” And there’s a long history of scholarship from Presbyterian and Reformed types in America”

    There are two English traits that DW tries to emulate, the first is that kind of ye ole worlde set of anachronisms which often appeals to people who would like an English class system with themselves somewhere at the top (I presume the image of an oxford don appeals here), so the names of the various institutions have ancient allusions (‘St Andrews’ ‘Greyfriars’ and so on), and there are various affectations (a professed love for the ‘Trivium’ and so on). The second is that oxford debating stance that “involves a stance so cocksure of its rightness and superiority that it would be a shame to freight it with mere fact” (as James Fallows put it).

  110. Darlene wrote:

    And here we have it again…Doug Wilson’s denials. Someone with the handle CREC Member, commented: “I would like to understand how you could do any of these things and still lead our denomination.” This CREC member sent 3 links to Doug Wilson’s blog, one from Natalie Rose’ blog, one from Katie Botkin’s blog, and the Vintage73 article that was posted here a TWW. All 3 blogs addressed Wilson’s wrongdoing in handling sex abuse/pedophilia. Wilson’s reply to the concerned CREC member: “…the short answer is that I didn’t do all those things.” Hmmmm…..Let the reader understand.
    https://dougwils.com/the-church/true-glue.html#comment-2250812827

    Sounds like wordsmithing to me. There might be *one* thing out of many, that is a little off, and so he can say, “I didn’t do *all* those things. ..”

  111. Darlene wrote:

    By the way, Doug just started moderating comments over at his blog. A few people have already been banned – one in particular who had excellent comments and addressed Wilson’s complicity in the Sitler case. I think the heat is on and Wilson knows it. Gotta control the dissent.

    How can you tell someone has been banned?

  112. Elizabeth Lee wrote:

    In my opinion every time a religious leader ignores the victims and protects a criminal, they are displaying evidence of narcissism.

    I believe that our criminal laws need to be modified to treat such protection of serial offenders as “conspiracy to continue criminal activity” with a sentence based on what crime was committed by said criminal following the protection. If child sexual abuse, then prison as if the minister committed the sexual abuse himself. In some states, a life sentence. Then said minister could be an in-house chaplain for the prison system!!!! in exchange for his room and board. If an action results in a crime, it should be prosecuted!

  113. Bridget wrote:

    Wilson does not seem to understand that pedophiles are sexually stimulated by children instead of by adults

    There have been reported cases where a man has to think about sex with a child in order to have an erection and have sex with an adult woman.

  114. DW himself often says that your theology comes out your fingertips. I think the world is now seeing what that means for him personally and it makes many of us sick. @ dee:

  115. Yes, without saying to much my sons story will be told. Dee is incredibly supportive and I’m so grateful that these women stand in the gap where pastors and men of God should be. They are the truth seekers and defenders of the afflicted, the stranger the poor, the vulnerable, the orphan, and widows . Without people like her changes may come slower or not at all. I believe God called these women because he knew that they would play an important role in our lives and in this situation . Sadly our situation is the same typical response from my former pastor /elders. They stand up there preaching grace and love yet fail to even give it. What they mean is submit,obey,do not tell nor questions lest you be labeled divisive and a gossip!!! They shame the child victim rather than acknowledge any offense. They call out sinow but only the sin of the victim and heaven forbid the abuser be held accountable. No! He is now the victim because we will not forgive, how can you forgive when they don’t acknowledge wrong? Can someone explain this why these idiots do this! I feel like I have entered an alternate universe. Anyways this story here is really not different than ours. The response is the same and gets more agregious. Shame on these men! @ GovPappy:

  116. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Same rules as if you were meeting with David Miscavige or any of his fan club (i.e. Sea Org)?

    Oh, with DM and the Sea Org, I’d insist on meeting with a half-dozen people in a shopping mall food court. With cameras. And I’d be wearing an ankle bracelet.

  117. Gary Greenfield wrote:

    I am Natalie Greenfield’s dad. Maybe this open letter and statement about Doug Wilson will help your perspective. Here is a link: http://joypeacehope.blogspot.in

    Let me first tell you how sorry I am for the pain and suffering your daughter suffered at the hands of Jamin Wight. Please give her a hug from me and assure her of my prayers.

    May I also say that I am livid for the way that yo were treated in this situation. It appears that DW is very good at disciplining other people while not having an ounce of introspection on how his words and actions cause such pain to others. I am so sorry that you had to experience that.

    May I do a reprint of this letter on our blog? Also, if you or your daughter would like to say anything to anybody else, please feel free to contact TWW. We would be happy to be one of your mouthpieces.

  118. Rich Gall wrote:

    DW himself often says that your theology comes out your fingertips.

    The first thing I look for is an expression of deep concern and empathy for the victim. DM did not do so. I think the well being of the victims trail far behind his theological experiment with the repentance of pedophiles. It is a dangerous game and he is having to watch it play out now as victims and their families find their voices. And then there are those of us who despise the rampant theological failures of many churches as they play “Walking in Repentance” roulette with the lives of children.

  119. Chris S wrote:

    “You know, when I was quite a bit younger, I would have found Douglas Wilson’s world quite seductive. He gives off an air of erudition and education. His college sounds like a place of learning–“New St. Andrews.” And there’s a long history of scholarship from Presbyterian and Reformed types in America”
    There are two English traits that DW tries to emulate, the first is that kind of ye ole worlde set of anachronisms which often appeals to people who would like an English class system with themselves somewhere at the top (I presume the image of an oxford don appeals here), so the names of the various institutions have ancient allusions (‘St Andrews’ ‘Greyfriars’ and so on), and there are various affectations (a professed love for the ‘Trivium’ and so on). The second is that oxford debating stance that “involves a stance so cocksure of its rightness and superiority that it would be a shame to freight it with mere fact” (as James Fallows put it).

    Your comment is something I have been trying to put into words. That is why I repeated it so the reader would be sure to see this. I think you are the first one to express it in this fashion.

    Doug Phillips of Vision Forum with whom Doug Wilson has a friendly relationship, use to like to play dress up as well. He would travel to Africa trying to look like Indiana Jones. He, too, would have enjoyed a return to the days of the Empire in which he would be part of the rich ruling class looking benignly down on his subjects.

    I have heard that some of the young men in Wilson’s orbit run around with bowler hats trying to look very English and, of course, far superior the naive folks of Moscow Idaho. I always get a chuckle out of imagining those guys trying *veddy* hard to appear like an English intellectual lord.

    Great comment!!!!!!!!

  120. Darlene wrote:

    By the way, Doug just started moderating comments over at his blog.

    That is the way to shut down communication. Reclaims he is doing it only to get rid of the over the top individuals and that he will allow dissent.

    Do me a favor. Keep an eye on how much dissent you observe after the *moderation.*

  121. mirele wrote:

    You know, when I was quite a bit younger, I would have found Douglas Wilson’s world quite seductive.

    Thanks for your very insightful comment, mirele. As I mentioned in other threads about Douglas Wilson and Christ Church, I saw the beginnings of this current and very elaborate system when I lived in Pullman and Moscow from 1973-1987. So, I’ve been thinking about those source issues that led to where things are today.

    The key word you said that struck me is *seductive*. I’ve been working on an article that explores what kinds of things can set us up to be groomed by authoritarians — the susceptibilities to seduction by sociopaths, as it were. Some of these factors are internal/personal, some are external/social in origin.

    In light of the discussion about Mr. Wilson’s church-educational-community-political industrial complex in Moscow and beyond, I think some of these points might be of interest to consider. I’ll follow up with something about fatherlessness, because I think that’s a particular factor that we’ve consistently seen in the Neo-Calvinist/Neo-Puritan movements which focus their theological seduction on young men … and set them us as “fathers” in a patriarchal system.

    Anyway, meanwhile, here’s my initial list of what can make us vulnerable to getting picked off by people of pathology. FWIW.

    * Fatherlessness that leaves “holes in the soul” and a longing for connection with a father figure — which a charismatic authoritarian man will gladly step in to act as and act out as. I suspect the dynamics here often lead to learned passivity, learned helplessness, learned devaluation of personal worth — and a false elevation of authority systems, masculinity, and patriarchy.

    * Sincerity in wanting to please God and do what’s right — and authoritarians are ready to tell us precisely what those things to do are.

    * Power as a magnet for drawing in whatever pleases self — and we seek roles that benefit us. [I see this happening with “commenders” and cronies who end up serving in high-ranking roles that keep theological dictators at the top of the pyramid.] This hearkens back to Frank Herbert’s quote that “Power is a magnet that draws the corruptible,” as a counterbalance to Lord Acton’s maxim that “Power tends to corrupt; absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.”

    * Linguistic philosophical perfectionism, and arrogantly believe the doctrines. This is an Enlightment-era idea/ideal that assumes if we can just capture the precise language to describe our beliefs perfectly, then we will have captured the one and only true, right, and beauty philosophy/theology. This kind of pseudo-intellectualism and erudite elitism attracts those drawn by absorption with I.Q. (whether they’ve got the points or wished they did).

    * Idealism, romanticism, and naively believing the doctrines because the system surrounding it and the purveyors of it appeal to aesthetics, sentimentality, and/or a throwback to a seemingly simpler time.

    * Looking for security but ending up settling for predictability, stability, routine – i.e., legalism. I think this one is often based in fear, such as of how hard it is to live in an increasingly complex world, and the relative ease of just following some checklists that imply guaranteed outcomes.

    * False identity – integrate self identity in people or things or organizational systems – not in God and who He made us each to be. When we integrate our lives in something outside ourselves, we lose the necessity to discern and decide for ourselves how we will navigate our way through life. Someone or something else dictates that for us.

    * Naïve overtrust of authorities who are authoritarian, and fusing the role of overseer with the people who fill it — even if they aren’t qualified to serve in it.

    I’m sure there are more. This is just my starting point after thinking for a very long time about various dynamics used to draw us into the orbit of a dictator and then keep us there …

  122. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Brad, I’ve been thinking a lot about how to start working my way through the linguistic/other issues I have which have kept me really distrustful of God & out of church. I find the level & systems focus of your thinking really helpful as it is me not understanding where certain ideas have come from & what underpins them that causes me confusion, in lots of areas from how various groups construct their understanding of God & how the christian life is to be lived. The wide spectrum of pictures of God & types of living that people draw from the same Bible bewilders me & overwhelms a brain that in every other area manages complexity & nuance really well. I suppose what I want to find out if you know of, or have written more stuff, on what you think does constitute the healthy historic christian position (& why this is so), rather than the analyses of those you think are wrong in some way, such as getting sucked in by authoritarian leaders. Does this make any sense? Have you read Christian Smith’s ‘The Bible Made Impossible’? I feel stuck in what he calls ‘pervasive interpretive pluralism’ – the ability to see that various interpretations arise from the Bible, but not able to find the final ‘key’ that pushes me towards one interpretation over another. I’m not sure I make any sense when I articulate this as there’s very definite emotional/psychological pressure/history/trauma that comes along with this subject for me.

  123. @ brad/futuristguy:
    To me, the underlying problem of your excellent points is an odd kind of lazy-fear, not couch-potato avoidance but one that repeatedly turns away from taking spiritual risk. Perhaps they don’t believe they are sturdy enough to look into the abyss without being destroyed, I don’t know. They certainly don’t trust that all truth is God’s truth.

    After a while, ISTM, this lazy fear translates itself in action: “God needs protecting!” And then it becomes very strange-—as they go along, they eventually attribute to God all manner of horrors, the very same horrors that are part/parcel of the abyss they refuse to face. They “give it all to God”, yes, but actually they are projecting it onto Him. I suppose it provides some comfort because the abyss stands outside of them and is completely out of their control. ?

    I know it’s not conscious. Mercy for all, extra for those who were raised rigidly/poorly. We need to experience life and the process of daring/risking takes time.

    But unfortunately there always a handful who are glad to take advantage of them early on, and too many give a sigh of relief to have the burden lifted from them. Giving their job to unscrupulous power-mongers is a lesson hard learned and almost always after much damage. But the worst is that some never learn. Ach

  124. @ Beakerj:
    I think I understand the issues you’re having – there’s so much information/interpretation out there it’s almost paralyzing. I find discussions of technical things often wearying because of this – I have no real confidence that what I’m seeing is reliable and definitive. It’s not good, but that’s where I’m at.

  125. Pingback: Set-Ups for Being Picked Off by Authoritarian Leaders – Part 1 | futuristguy UNITED STATES

  126. @ GovPappy:
    Oh I hear you…I want to sort this out but my head starts this weird buzzing thing when I start to consider it or look at stuff, for exactly that reason,the almost infinite nuances (that actually add up to substantial differences eventually). I’m not glad this happens to you but I am kind of glad I’m not alone, in that I feel that I’m different from many people who seem to have a very uncomplicated relationship with scripture & God, which bring them peace. To me it brings infinite uncertainty with potentially infinite consequences, which is why my head buzzes. I function very differently everywhere else. I get scared sometimes I’ll have to walk away to stay sane, that theology has damaged my mind.

  127. @ marquis:
    Welcome Marquis!

    To Our Readers

    I know a great deal of Marquis’ story. I look forward to sharing it with you all in the near future. Marquis is one brave person!

  128. To: Gary Greenfield,

    Hi Gary,

    I am so sorry that you, your daughter Natalie, and your family were harmed by your former church in Moscow, ID, and were not ministered to, helped, protected and loved in the aftermath of Natalie’s sexual abuse by that seminary student Jamin Wight.

    Your story is sadly all too common in our churches and I know other families treated like yours. The same plight frequently befalls witnesses who want to protect children from predators at church.

    By the way, I would have personally gotten on a plane (I am in CA.), flown to ID., rented a car, and come to have communion with you and Natalie after Christ Church threatened you with the loss of communion.

    You are a good Papa! We love you and Natalie!

  129. Thank you, time has helped some. I know God is good I know He comforts and He has been there for us. I must admit with out insulting my savior that it doesn’t always feel that way. I am so hurt by this church, these men because they exchanged my son for their comfy cosey church with its money and relationships that go with it! They sold him out. Does this makes sense to anyone ? I feel that in this blog post the same keeps happening to others to, not just us. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    @ marquis:

    I feel like I have entered an alternate universe.

    At first it feels like this:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y After some time you will gain some equilibrium.
    I’m so sorry for how you and your son were treated.

  130. @ marquis:
    Marquis, your first comment here felt like a deep righteous wail and I could think of nothing to say; I just wept.

    I hope you will be ok, even if not yet, and I am sooo sorry for your son, not yet knowing what happened and how he is doing.

  131. Beakerj wrote:

    I want to sort this out but my head starts this weird buzzing thing when I start to consider it or look at stuff, for exactly that reason,the almost infinite nuances (that actually add up to substantial differences eventually).

    Sounds somewhat similar to what happens to me when I poke at traumatic experiences I’m not (yet?) able to tackle. Like an internal danger alarm.

  132. Here’s the follow-up on fatherlessness as a key issue in contemporary authoritarian ministries and movements. I just posted, “Set-Ups for Being Picked Off by Authoritarian Leaders – Part 2: Dynamics of Fatherlessness and Susceptibility to Substitutes.”

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/set-ups-for-being-picked-off-part-2/

    This is an issue I’ve been pondering a lot the past few weeks, so it just seemed the time to write about it. Hope it’s of some help …

    Here’s the last paragraph of that post, and I would appreciate prayer as I seek wisdom for potential future steps along this line of research-writing. I have stacks of material I wrote, mostly in the 1990s, that could provide a base for bring things up to date with applying it to the crisis of men entrapped by authoritarian pyramid schemes … the sort of “Ponzi of Power” that’s become so prevalent.

    I have been considering writing more extensively about men’s issues once I finish my curriculum project for training church planters and social entrepreneurs to Do Good Plus Do No Harm. I see that possible move as a logical extension of my writing about spiritual abuse and recovery, as it is apparent that so many malignant Christian ministries target wounded young men by supplying counterfeit fathers that will never bring healing to the father-wound suffered by so many … So, if I happen to come to mind, pray for me to have discernment about what to do and directions to take.

  133. @ dee:

    I have heard that some of the young men in Wilson’s orbit run around with bowler hats trying to look very English and, of course, far superior the naive folks of Moscow Idaho.

    The faux-English-y thing reminds of me of something I saw while in the UK last summer, which was a prime example of being extremely zealous about your cause while completely missing the point.

    My choir was in residence doing daily evensong for a week at Ely Cathedral, and one Sunday morning Eucharist the last day we were there. We didn’t do the evensong that last Sunday night because it was incorporated into a C. S. Lewis festival going on nearby. The music was wonderful, but aside from that the entire service was essentially hijacked to be about C. S. Lewis. Also, almost everyone attending was a tourist (complete with conference tags around their necks), and it was pretty clear from what I’d read in the conference publicity that most of them were American evangelicals. I wonder if it occurred to any of them what Lewis himself would have thought of a church service being made primarily about him instead of about worshiping God. Personally I found it unsettling (I went with other choir members because they wanted to hear the choir – I didn’t know beforehand how profoundly it would be hijacked).

  134. @ Patrice:
    Yeah, I do take it as some kind of signal to be wary. But I suppose my question then is (& I don’t know if GovPappy feels this too) what is a wise & healthy ‘holding’ position to take, spiritually speaking, while my brain gets to the point where it can tackle things? I never wanted things to be like this, & I want to sort them out, but without destroying myself. What’s a pastorally wise answer to this? Do I set aside half an hour a week to tackle some reading & then put it aside? What? I prayed for 20 years that God would change me so that what he has given would be sufficient for me to feel like I really knew who he was, really loved him for that & trusted him with my life. Then it all blew up. So what interim stage is a good idea?

  135. refugee wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    By the way, Doug just started moderating comments over at his blog. A few people have already been banned – one in particular who had excellent comments and addressed Wilson’s complicity in the Sitler case. I think the heat is on and Wilson knows it. Gotta control the dissent.
    How can you tell someone has been banned?

    Refugee, for one, some of the supporters of DW spoke about how glad they were that a certain person had been banned. That was under DW’s entry, ” Technological Lummox.”
    http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/a-technological-lummox.html

    For another, the comments of those folks who have been banned can no longer be seen. In the place of their former comments it states: “This comment was deleted.” So now it looks like those people who were responding to the banned folks, are having a discussion with someone who is no longer there. 😉

  136. @ Hester:
    I kind of love this because Lewis’s views do not mesh well with a lot of American Evangelicalism 🙂 I wonder if I read some of his less orthodox views in my lovely British accent (which I do have, Americans often ‘love’ my voice) they would nod & smile? Although you are absolutely right about how he would have viewed the service.

  137. Bridget wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    I noticed that there were alot of deleted comments.

    Yep, and I think there will continue to be. The time for DW to permit open dialogue on his blog is coming to a close. As I said, the heat is on. Now that a lot of information has been disseminated on the web, more folks are on to him. And since this particular debacle with Sitler, and by extension Wight, are being revisited again, DW must control the information at his blog. I think he actually might be a bit concerned, even worried, about how the Reformed community, and even the greater Evangelical church perceives him at this point. Sadly, he seems to be digging his heals in deeper and hunkering down rather than face any of his wrongdoing.

  138. @ Beakerj:
    Hester and Beaker, I’d take it to the open discussion to hug y’all, but it doesn’t really work on my phone. Thanks for sharing the struggle though.

    It doesn’t help that I had a rigid theological foundation that I now believe to be mostly worthless. Calvinistic Dispensarionalism (don’t ask).

  139. Darlene wrote:

    As I said, the heat is on. Now that a lot of information has been disseminated on the web, more folks are on to him. And since this particular debacle with Sitler, and by extension Wight, are being revisited again, DW must control the information at his blog. I think he actually might be a bit concerned, even worried, about how the Reformed community, and even the greater Evangelical church perceives him at this point. Sadly, he seems to be digging his heals in deeper and hunkering down rather than face any of his wrongdoing.

    I’m waiting for Monday morning to see if TGC approves the posts critical of it promoting Douglas Wilson’s latest book. I rather doubt it, but they need to know they are being watched and this is yet another black mark against the organization.

  140. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    it is apparent that so many malignant Christian ministries target wounded young men by supplying counterfeit fathers that will never bring healing to the father-wound suffered by so many

    I will be praying for you, Brad, as you write about this important subject. I have noticed that women with father-wounds also get pulled into these abusive, authoritarian churches.

  141. Beakerj wrote:

    I suppose what I want to find out if you know of, or have written more stuff, on what you think does constitute the healthy historic christian position (& why this is so), rather than the analyses of those you think are wrong in some way, such as getting sucked in by authoritarian leaders. Does this make any sense? Have you read Christian Smith’s ‘The Bible Made Impossible’? I feel stuck in what he calls ‘pervasive interpretive pluralism’ – the ability to see that various interpretations arise from the Bible, but not able to find the final ‘key’ that pushes me towards one interpretation over another. I’m not sure I make any sense when I articulate this as there’s very definite emotional/psychological pressure/history/trauma that comes along with this subject for me.

    Some initial thoughts, and I’ll add more if/when they come to mind.

    So much of what I’ve had to deal with comes out of nearly 20 years out of the last 40 spent in ministries and churches that turned out to be malignant. So, my search for what was “right” came out of analyzing for answers the questions that emerged from my being run over by what was wrong. Here’s what seems to have turned out to be the keys for me to the positive side of what things should look like:

    * We are responsible as individuals and as communities to discern and decide what directions we believe the Lord is leading us to go.

    * Part of the revolution of Christianity has been the populist notion that each person is not only responsible to discern and decide, but has the ability to comprehend and reflect on God’s Word, be led and empowered by the Spirit, and move within the Father’s world and will in ways that honor God by living out Christ’s Kingdom.

    * This is balanced by the calls to humility, to learn within community, to seek counsel, to work on “filling in the gaps and filing off the excesses” in our life, to make major changes in direction when necessary, and engage in minor course corrections daily.

    * We start our lifelong trajectory of transformation from where we are at — not where someone else thinks we should be — and the goal for us all is Christlike character. So, we cannot keep moving forward toward maturity in Christ if we orbit around the Law and/or allow dominators to dictate what we “must” do.

    Basically, every theological or organizational system I’ve been in that’s turned out to be severely abusive fails NOT on “orthodoxy,” but on “orthopraxy.” Their views on the practical how-to’s of sanctification are what typically messed me (and others) over. So, when legalism and authoritarianism are PRESENT, those are the barometer indicators that the theological environment is an unfortunate storm of anti-spirituality waiting to happen. Other key indicators are when an emphasis on grace and empowerment/leading of the Holy Spirit are ABSENT.

    And those are all tied in with the overall system of HOW their leaders created their theologies. And that is a topic I’ve written quite a bit on, with looking at whole paradigms and the deepest DNA from which they derive — the information processing styles [epistemologies].

    I’ll see if I have a not-so-technical article posted on this already, but here’s the gist of it, semi-technical. Every system that ends up majoring on dividing people into groups and on perfectionism uses far too much “either/or,” it’s-right-or-it’s-wrong, black-or-white thinking. Other systems (usually chaotic) have too much “or” thinking and it’s all about generating options but is often without moral or ethical constraints. Other systems have too much “both/and” thinking to where everything is paradox, mystery, complexity and that doesn’t always allow for clear, direct analysis. Other systems have too much “and” thinking, which brings together people (which is good) but over-relies on the group to be the best arbiter for the individual (not always so good).

    My conclusion is that different kinds of Scripture need different interpretive guides.

    * There are MORAL issues of right and wrong, and that is where “either/or” thinking is the most helpful for sorting it out.

    * There are WISDOM issues where our choices range from foolish to bad to so-so to good to best — not right/wrong — and this is where “or” thinking is helpful; what options are open, and what might be consequences.

    * There are PARADOXES where we need to keep several things in mind simultaneously because the Scriptures present both: We are sinner-saints. Jesus was both God and human. God works providentially and our choices are meaningful.

    * There are SOCIAL/ETHICAL issues about how we should treat others where the “and” kind of community/communal thinking helps counterbalance individual thinking. Important because no one person has all the resources or right perspectives; we do need each other as a Body.

    I think we find maturity at the intersection of all four of these sources, creating harmony instead of cacophony as the soundtrack of our journey.

    Okay, hope that’s of some help. The less technical version of the information processing styles is here:

    https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/tutorial-11/

  142. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Brad, that all makes perfect sense to me. Maybe my cognitive dissonance and mental paralysis comes more from the general pressure of Christians around me expecting the Body (and me) to behave and believe in certain ways, or, more appropriately, align with certain interpretations? Not necessarily that the interpretations are wrong, but that they’re being pushed as the only “right” (where your either/or, both/and statements comes into play). That leads to a general disconnect and desire for distance from the more outspoken factions of Christianity.

    This is more abstract than my mind likes to go, but maybe it’s necessary to see where my confusions lie.

  143. Patrice wrote:

    lazy-fear

    You comment makes a lot of sense, Patrice. And I keep thinking of laissez-faire as a partial antidote to lazy-fear; we simply cannot control all consequences and to attempt that is to end up in some kind of authoritarian mess.

  144. GovPappy wrote:

    This is more abstract than my mind likes to go, but maybe it’s necessary to see where my confusions lie.

    Ain’t it the truth … it is mind-boggling, especially if we’re wired to be more “concrete” and “sense-oriented” so that all this uber-reading-between-the-lines exhausts us.

    But if nothing else, perhaps some explorations into the abstractions shows us that “Ideas have legs.” And bad ideas generally find someone to walk all over …

  145. Patrice, We are ok my son is doing so great. I was blessed with an incredible son. In one night he lost innocence to violence , his so called friends, church family , and a pastor /group of elders and deacons who were in his life since he was 8 years old. These men were at times stand in father’s if you can really call it that now. My son grieves to this day over his father dropping out of his life. So the impact and the impression these men left after my sons assault was that they abandoned him in fact it was worse then what his father did. He was to young to remember what his dad did. These men chose to be in his life and abandoned him in the worst storm of his life as he was 13 yrs. old when he was abused. They questioned his character whether he was lying rather than hug him and tell him it wasn’t his fault. They accused him of participating in his own abuse rather than all of them lay hands on him and pray for his nightmares to end, him mutulating himself, him being afraid to leave his house and always looking for his perpetrators car. No, these men prostituted my baby for their perfect church and yes I said it! My son was pimped out for their money. As harsh as these words are they are true and my heart grieves but my anger also burns hot because I was given this child to protect and to raise until God is ready to take him from my care. What an awesome responsibility we parents have to be given charge over children. God did not give church buildings and funds to support pastors salaries or mission work in exchange for cheap grace and to sell out children in His name. Shame on these men and shame on the church or any Christian who fails to support and speak up for the abused and vulnerable. If congregations came together as a body to fight against the silencing of victims Satan would be thrown out of our churches. It is rare for churches to speak out on sexual abuse and I was stunned that the day after my sons assault he was abused on a Saturday. The pastor who was with me at the hospital that night (which I believe now was him doing damage control ) his sermon that he preached on the next morning was church discipline. Not for the abuser but over divisiveness and gossip. That next Sunday he said for me to say anything was slandering my sons perpetrator and that something like this could divide the church. Since that night he has never mentioned abuse or sexual assault or what happened to my baby. I see a pattern with every one of these pastors who harbor abusers. Oh and by the way this man brought my sons abuser to church that next Sunday after he had been charged and arrested. I only found out because my son ran up to me terrified when we got to the car he burated out crying. I was sick to my stomach. I couldn’t understand why they did that. If it happened to us it’s happening everywhere in these stories. This is not even the tip of the iceberg with our former church. Dee will be posting the entire story with our names. My son told me recently that his only fear was that I would drop the lawsuit. I have gone against the norm and allowed my son to have control in this aspect of his life. It has been wonderful for him as he is an incredible kid. I think he’s doing better than me because as his mom I feel what he endured and it shattered my heart. I can hardly stand that anyone made him feel fear hurt him and exposed him to sexual acts that are sickening. He has only recently been able to share half of what his perpetrator did to him in that room after 2 years. He is brave and my son like many other children possess courage to endure such evil. I think the worst that I was told was that because I we all deserve hell and nothing better that my son deserved his assault and,am I not grateful that because we deserve no better Jesus died for me. Whether we deserve hell or not no one will ever get me to believe that God abused my son that is not the holy God I serve. Yes He can use this for His glory but I don’t believe He orchastrates evil to be done to children . My sons abuser chose to harm my child and God used me to stop it.
    @ Patrice:

  146. @ Beakerj:

    I kind of love this because Lewis’s views do not mesh well with a lot of American Evangelicalism

    I know…which is why I also found it amusing in hindsight. 🙂

    It was also thrown into esp. stark relief at the time because 1) I had spent a long time Saturday afternoon in the cathedral essentially using the building for its actual purpose (i.e., prayer and meditation – I lit a candle for all the TWW folks in one of the chapels, BTW); and 2) my choir specializes in evensong, and because of that I know what the general themes of the service are supposed to be (the Incarnation, Christ as Light in the darkness, etc.). So by focusing on Lewis instead of Jesus, in the context of that service, it looked like they were making C. S. Lewis the incarnate Light of the world. Not good.

  147. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    GovPappy wrote:

    But if nothing else, perhaps some explorations into the abstractions shows us that “Ideas have legs.” And bad ideas generally find someone to walk all over …

    Great quote!

  148. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    And I keep thinking of laissez-faire as a partial antidote to lazy-fear; we simply cannot control all consequences and to attempt that is to end up in some kind of authoritarian mess.

    Lazy fear to laissez-faire hah A frightening combination of stepping into risk while also letting go (our delusion) of control.

    Immensely rewarding but not instant. Hard to be patient while also scared but it’s the job at hand. God help us all.

  149. Dee your to kind I’m more mad than I am brave lol. I finally could care less what anyone from that church thinks. When you abuse a child my child the gloves are off and I believe truly that God had brought you for this season in my sons life. @ dee:

  150. Would like to point out that Wilson begins his “True Glue” post by saying that people are not to lie to their neighbors, that it is an honor to lie to enemies, and that he is in a war.

    Lying for God’s win was also brought up 8 years ago, in a debate with U of I professor, Nick Gier. There, Wilson firmly said he wouldn’t ever ever do that (except Nazis) Part 1, starting 3 min http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalouse/Wilson_Gier_013107.htm

    In both places, Wilson speaks/writes in a way that allows plausible deniability. Debate with him is of little value, ISTM. His beliefs are covered in slippery, as we saw in his defending posts this past week. And he will flatly lie if he is cornered or if it proves more convenient for him. Whatever he asserts must be backed up by other sources.

    Scot McKnight’s recent posting about Wilson, a linguistic analysis of wedding sermons (The Subordinate Place of Supreme Honor), was a great help in this. It nailed his views down cleanly, for once.

  151. GovPappy wrote:

    It doesn’t help that I had a rigid theological foundation that I now believe to be mostly worthless. Calvinistic Dispensarionalism (don’t ask).

    Sounds like the Worst Possible Combination.

  152. dee wrote:

    Doug Phillips of Vision Forum with whom Doug Wilson has a friendly relationship, use to like to play dress up as well. He would travel to Africa trying to look like Indiana Jones. He, too, would have enjoyed a return to the days of the Empire in which he would be part of the rich ruling class looking benignly down on his subjects.

    Don’t forget his cosplay as an 19th Century NOBLEMAN (never a commoner). Including taking a mistress by hitting on the help.
    And as General Patton (wish I could have steered him into the REAL George Patton…)

    I have heard that some of the young men in Wilson’s orbit run around with bowler hats trying to look very English and, of course, far superior the naive folks of Moscow Idaho. I always get a chuckle out of imagining those guys trying *veddy* hard to appear like an English intellectual lord.

    I have run into a couple Anglophiles in my time — those to whom everything about England is always Superior to anything American. (Funny how they never mention chavs, yobbos, skins, or rugby riots…) In most of them, Anglophilia can best be summarized as this:

    “If this were ENGLAND, My name would be ‘Milord’. And all you unwashed peasants would have to stand by the side looking downward with your hats in your hands while *I* ride by booted and spurred.”

  153. Darlene wrote:

    For another, the comments of those folks who have been banned can no longer be seen. In the place of their former comments it states: “This comment was deleted.” So now it looks like those people who were responding to the banned folks, are having a discussion with someone who is no longer there

    Unpersons.
    They Never Existed.

  154. So recently I’ve learned about Wight, DW’s other protected pedophile. And over the weekend, while away from the computer, I began to wonder why DW is so intent on protecting these pedophiles.

    I’m wondering if both these guys were raised according to DW’s specifications, in home school, in a patriarchal home, and doing all the things that are supposed to keep young men from turning into perverts. And yet somehow these young men turned into pervs anyway thus blowing a hole in DW’s claim that raising boys in the patriarchy way will shield them from worldly influences that turn guys into pedophiles.

    And in the world of patriarchy, 13 year old girls, even ones raised in patriarchy, can be temptresses because even the cross of Jesus + patriarchy together aren’t strong enough to keep all women from sin.

    I know. Off the wall stuff. But this is what you get when I’m deprived of my computer for too long.

  155. Sorry for all my typos doing this from my phone. Dee sorry for all the frustration and anger coming out. This has been two long years of a church trying to shut me up, we’ll they tried.

  156. Hi Folks,
    I posted a good child sexual abuse in the church prevention video on the Open Discussion Board. I will also post it at the top of the page under the Interesting tab and Movies, etc. It is several hours in length. So take care of yourselves if you watch it…it is a tough subject for many.

  157. dee wrote:

    like to play dress up

    Very odd behavior yet not so uncommon. Back in the day, we had a pastor that dressed up like Crocodile Dundee for his Africa trips and when he came back. He also preached about the films from the pulpit.

    There’s another group that likes playing dress up, for example Saddam Hussein and his cronies, “who were NOT from the military wing of the party, dressed up in elaborate general’s uniforms replete with aiguillettes and swords…” as well as other leaders like Castro, Idi Amin, Kim Jong Un. None of them were in the military but they all liked the costumes, the cosplay.

  158. @ Mara:
    I don’t think that’s off the wall. If your ‘formula’ for heaven on earth doesn’t work you’re going to put up a defence.

  159. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I have run into a couple Anglophiles in my time — those to whom everything about England is always Superior to anything American. (Funny how they never mention chavs, yobbos, skins, or rugby riots…)

    Two things here.

    1) There have never been rugby riots.

    Rioting and hooliganism in the UK are, and always have been, associated uniquely with football, known in Scotland as fitba’ and in the US as soccer. “Soccer” is short for “Assoc</biation Fitba'” to distinguish it from American “football” in which the ball is propelled mainly by hand, much as it is in Rugby Fitba’ (no coincidence, as American Fitba’ is descended from Rugby Fitba’).

    2) The strange “otherness” of Englishness in the US.

    The mindset you describe, whereby English stuff is superior, is the photo-negative of the Hollywood mindset whereby Englishness is the source of all imperialistic scumbagdom. So you can have an American bad guy, but if you want a really sinister and evil character, he’ll generally have an English accent (cf Tom Hiddleston as Loki). To be fair, he can alternatively have a vaguely Germanic accent.

  160. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    “Assoc</biation Fitba'”

    P.S. Clearly an html tag malfunction there, which somehow didn’t end in holo-paragraphic disaster.

  161. @ Mara:
    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    A number of us seem to have noticed this in recent weeks here.

     If you deny healing miracles, but
     You still want something special supporting your ministry like the Charismo Weirdos have, but
     Your ministry doesn’t actually have supernatural power, then
     You need to fake some miracles somehow, but
     You can’t be faking medical healings, so
     You have to contrive “transformed lives” instead.

    Of course this creates complications. Just as there are fake, exaggerated or contrived healing miracles, there are also real ones. The same is true of “transformed lives”. There really have been lives transformed. There are also – among many other things – preachers who believe that their preaching and doctrine is anointed and powerful and must therefore be attended by transformed lives.

  162. Next from Castle Bulbeck, there’s been a really good overnight conversation involving Beaks, Futuristic Brad, GovPappy and Patrice (I think that’s everyone, usual apologies to anybody I’ve missed…) on authentic relationships with God, people for whom it all seems to work really simply, and those of us for whom it just doesn’t come that easily.

    There’s an instructive comment from Jesus on this point, I think; made to Thomas. Do you believe, because you’ve seen? Blessed are those who haven’t seen, but have still believed. I don’t for one moment think Jesus was saying “blessed are the gullible simpletons who’ll believe any old nonsense”. I think he was talking about something much richer and deeper. Because he also said that the road to life is steep and narrow, and few find it. As I think Patrice said, many people are seduced by the broad, easy road to “knowing God” – “lazy fear” as she put it. Give me a quick fix for all my questions and concerns that will show me the light and make me feel good.

    Put another way: those of us who’ve found that knowing God doesn’t come easily have actually found an important truth. Knowing God DOESN’T come easily. Some people might get a head-start in the shape of, say, either a single intense spiritual experience or an ability (for want of a better word) to have a certain kind of experience regularly. But I’m convinced that is NOT the same as coming to know God. There are people who are experience-rich but maturity-poor because they’ve got stuck in the one mode of encountering God that comes easily to them. A bit like how I’ve not progressed much in learning the cadenza from Rachmaninov’s 3rd Piano Concerto lately because I’ve kept playing the relatively easy third page thereof. The first page is awkward, tedious and less spectacular-sounding, and I’ve fallen into the trap of not giving it enough attention.

    There’s this, too: Not everyone who expresses doubt is asking for the aforesaid quick fix. TBH, I’ve often been frustrated on this point: I’ve been foolish enough to express doubts, or just to observe complexity, to someone who has then wrongly interpreted that as a cry for help and has then tried to breast-feed me with cheap pat answers. Actually, it is they who need help – because they’ve been taken in by the idea that cheap pat answers actually exist.

  163. Great post….. This is exactly the challenge of science and the Bible…. If you stop, step back, and think for a minute, how can we limited humans EVER comprehend the infinite?? Or how can we transcend time? Those are two of many concepts that are not just issues with humans and science, but humans and the orthodox Christian definition of G$d and the trinity…

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Next from Castle Bulbeck, there’s been a really good overnight conversation involving Beaks, Futuristic Brad, GovPappy and Patrice (I think that’s everyone, usual apologies to anybody I’ve missed…) on authentic relationships with God, people for whom it all seems to work really simply, and those of us for whom it just doesn’t come that easily.
    There’s an instructive comment from Jesus on this point, I think; made to Thomas. Do you believe, because you’ve seen? Blessed are those who haven’t seen, but have still believed. I don’t for one moment think Jesus was saying “blessed are the gullible simpletons who’ll believe any old nonsense”. I think he was talking about something much richer and deeper. Because he also said that the road to life is steep and narrow, and few find it. As I think Patrice said, many people are seduced by the broad, easy road to “knowing God” – “lazy fear” as she put it. Give me a quick fix for all my questions and concerns that will show me the light and make me feel good.
    Put another way: those of us who’ve found that knowing God doesn’t come easily have actually found an important truth. Knowing God DOESN’T come easily. Some people might get a head-start in the shape of, say, either a single intense spiritual experience or an ability (for want of a better word) to have a certain kind of experience regularly. But I’m convinced that is NOT the same as coming to know God. There are people who are experience-rich but maturity-poor because they’ve got stuck in the one mode of encountering God that comes easily to them. A bit like how I’ve not progressed much in learning the cadenza from Rachmaninov’s 3rd Piano Concerto lately because I’ve kept playing the relatively easy third page thereof. The first page is awkward, tedious and less spectacular-sounding, and I’ve fallen into the trap of not giving it enough attention.
    There’s this, too: Not everyone who expresses doubt is asking for the aforesaid quick fix. TBH, I’ve often been frustrated on this point: I’ve been foolish enough to express doubts, or just to observe complexity, to someone who has then wrongly interpreted that as a cry for help and has then tried to breast-feed me with cheap pat answers. Actually, it is they who need help – because they’ve been taken in by the idea that cheap pat answers actually exist.

  164. marquis wrote:

    I think the worst that I was told was that because I we all deserve hell and nothing better that my son deserved his assault and,am I not grateful that because we deserve no better Jesus died for me. Whether we deserve hell or not no one will ever get me to believe that God abused my son that is not the holy God I serve. Yes He can use this for His glory but I don’t believe He orchastrates evil to be done to children . My sons abuser chose to harm my child and God used me to stop it.

    You are exactly right.

    God would never ever create such a beautiful artwork as your son, call Him made in His image, and at the same time plan to have him be trashed. A god who would do that would not be worth worshipping.

    Our good and loving God thought so highly of us that He came here as one of us so that we can be restored to our created selves. How valuable He thinks us!

    What kind of people dare to damage the sons and daughters of the Creator of the Universe? They blasphemed God by hurting your son and you (while leading a church!) and by lying so terribly about His character. IMO, they are among the worst of creatures.

    I know (from experience) that the path to health is slow and long, but I’m very glad you two are doing ok. I look forward to reading your story here at TWW.

  165. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    A number of us seem to have noticed this in recent weeks here.

     If you deny healing miracles, but
     You still want something special supporting your ministry like the Charismo Weirdos have, but
     Your ministry doesn’t actually have supernatural power, then
     You need to fake some miracles somehow, but
     You can’t be faking medical healings, so
     You have to contrive “transformed lives” instead.

    “1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

    2 Timothy 3:1-5 (NIV, from Biblegateway)

    Well spotted, Nick. [Spoken in a genuine mega-Brit Harry Potterian accent.] I did think that Paul guy had a little something to say about all that.

  166. Thank you for that patrice. You are exactly right. This was said by a friend who herself has five children. I had been close to them and they were one of my cleaning customers. When they found out I was suing the family her and her husband sat me down and for 3 1/2 to 4 hrs. they exercised Galatians 6:1 which by the way is in this churches bylaws for church discipline. I was no longer a member there. So as to not steal Dee’s thunder and the full blown neo calvinist confrontation let’s just say that I do not know how I managed to sit through it. I had the husband telling me about suing Christians in corinthians while the wife was next to me on her knees praying out loud in a,whisper ” it’s shameful to sue believers” keep in mind I was suing for the medical bills that were in the thousands as a result of my babies assault. The family never even said sorry. Instead they slandered my child and this church bought it hook line and sinker. Dee will get to share this story In its entirety because I believe she is who God has brought to do this. As I look back on the,churches response to my child’s abuse I am astounded with myself in that I gave them 24 months exactly to do the right thing before I filed a small claims suit against the family. Let’s just say now that the church has inserted itself in my small claims suit and has actually taken away my means to earn a living by pressuring members who were customers of mine to disassociate with me. I literally live hand to mouth and this is what my former pastor and elders did right after I left and continues to do now. People this is exactly what these men do. You don’t conform obey, or keep quiet they toss you out ,even children. God has brought Dee, an amazing attorney,and some other incredible women to defend us and when dee breaks this story it’s going to blow up. At least this is what we believe. It’s interesting that God has chosen women to stand in the gap for the vulnerable. I say women are just as important in ministry and in the church as men and if this blog isn’t proof I don’t know what is. @ Patrice:

  167. Dee suggested I consult my attorney before she breaks this story. The attorney wants her to wait which is why we are not doing it yet and why I have not released our names and the church. @ Patrice:

  168. @ Janet Varin:
    Reading through your link gives a telling indication of where all the emoting on the Internet can go terribly wrong:

    From the link:

    Minimize your own role as much as possible … Don’t mention the fact that you were the pastor at their wedding and there are literally photos of you with them, blessing their marriage

    From Wilson’s open statement:

    Seventh, in the latest round of accusations, much has been made of the fact that Christ Church approved of Steven’s wedding to Katie through the fact that I officiated at the wedding. First, it should be noted that in our community, weddings are not arranged or determined by the church. Katie and her family had all the facts when she agreed to marry Steven, which was important, but the decision to marry was the couple’s decision, not ours. That said, I officiated at the wedding and was glad to do so. While we do not believe that marriage is an automatic “fix” for the temptations to molest children, …

    But make sure you immediately deny any intimate involvement in the man’s life or any particular knowledge …

    versus

    … since Steven’s conviction and conditional release from prison and jail, Steven, as a penitent Christian, has been welcome at Christ Church, and has worshiped regularly with us since that time.

    You get the point. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. The latter is what is not happening at the moment, all too often.

  169. I just checked the post at TGC’s blog reviewing Doug Wilson’s latest book. Total number of comments: zero. Figures.

  170. Patrice wrote:

    God would never ever create such a beautiful artwork as your son, call Him made in His image, and at the same time plan to have him be trashed. A god who would do that would not be worth worshipping.

    Unless your name is Calvin and you have God All Figured Out.

  171. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.”

    I was talking with a refugee from my former church and he quoted this to me just last week in reference to the dishonesty he saw in the leadership there.

  172. Bill M wrote:

    [2 Timothy 3:]5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.”

    I was talking with a refugee from my former church and he quoted this to me just last week in reference to the dishonesty he saw in the leadership there.

    How many kazillion times have commenters about Neo-Calvinism/Neo-Puritanism noted things like, “They don’t talk about the Holy Spirit much” and “Sounds like they only have two members of the Trinity in their theology”?

    Without relying on the Holy Spirit inside us to empower us to be transformed, it becomes all about externals and our ability to conform.

  173. @ singleman:

    I comment regularly at TGC, with never a one published. However, I did cc an email copy of my unpublished comment to Lou Markos, the author of the review, a prof at Houston Baptist U. No response. But at least he can’t say he was not aware…

  174. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Unless your name is Calvin and you have God All Figured Out.

    John Calvin saw God through the haze of kidney stones and a desperate longing to pin the universe down like butterflies in a glass case. The mirror he was peering at was so dark that he couldn’t see enough to make out the broadest outlines.

    I will give another listen to the Neo-Puritans only after they suffer from chronic kidney stones.

  175. JYJames wrote:

    Back in the day, we had a pastor that dressed up like Crocodile Dundee for his Africa trips and when he came back. He also preached about the films from the pulpit.

    Totally weirds me out.

  176. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Nick, thanks for that. Not sure if that all makes sense because I want to believe it or if it rings true, but it’s helpful. Hehe.

    I’ve been immeasurably helped in this area simply by coming in contact with folks willing to listen (Actually listen, not just try to fix), and by boards such as this one facilitating honest discussion.

    It’s still a struggle though, and sometimes someone will ask a question or express a doubt I’ve never thought of, and it floors me. And then I ask again, why do such things have such a dark appeal to me? And this leads right back to the earlier discussion about not even being able to trust answers that should provide a measure of peace because I know it’s highly likely somewhere out there is a theory that undermines my newfound knowledge that I’ll need to research.

    I end up placing a lot of faith in experiences, specifically shared experiences. It becomes more comforting to know someone else out there has the same struggle than it is to see an “answer” to a problem. I don’t trust my intellect. I trust my instincts more – my instincts to learn from those who seem to be in this whole Christian thing for the right reasons. Even that is dangerous territory.

    I guess you’re right. It’s not easy knowing God. He didn’t give us an instruction manual, He gave us examples.

  177. JYJames wrote:

    There’s another group that likes playing dress up, for example Saddam Hussein and his cronies, “who were NOT from the military wing of the party, dressed up in elaborate general’s uniforms replete with aiguillettes and swords…” as well as other leaders like Castro, Idi Amin, Kim Jong Un. None of them were in the military but they all liked the costumes, the cosplay.

    “Every monarch dresses in a military uniform….”
    — Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace?

  178. Patrice wrote:

    I will give another listen to the Neo-Puritans only after they suffer from chronic kidney stones.

    I have seen kidney stones in action. Including one guy who I KNOW has a high pain threshold doubled over screaming, close to vomiting from the pain. And tales of women who’ve both given birth and had kidney stones saying they’ll take the difficult labor over the stone.

    So how do you think the pain of kidney stones affected Calvin’s personality and theology?

  179. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    “Sounds like they only have two members of the Trinity in their theology”

    That would be “God” (which, roughly speaking, corresponds to the Father as I understand him, with his Sonjesustodieonthecrossforyousin as a kind of annexe) and the bible as interpreted to them in their first few months of attending church.

  180. Ken wrote:

    Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. The latter is what is not happening at the moment, all too often.

    One can’t do literal readings of Douglas Wilson. He speaks/writes voluminously: a mix of true and false stuff, equivocations, contradictions, and occasional lies. His seedier ideas are set out through inference, for future deniability. Analysis is needed, and then weighed against his actions.

    Here, overcoming evil with good will include calling out verbal/written shenanigans, taking him to task for arrogant ignorance of pedophilia/molestation, and supporting the neglected/rejected abused. Which is precisely what a few wise bloggers and their commentariat are doing.

    Some people are nasty pieces of work, not by creation, but through what they’ve decided to do/become. For these people, the pertinent verse: “be wise as a serpent and innocent as a dove”.

  181. Patrice wrote:

    John Calvin saw God through the haze of kidney stones and a desperate longing to pin the universe down like butterflies in a glass case.

    The same bud who had the bad kidney stones once told me his take on Mohammed that could also apply to Calvin. Went something like this:

    “You remember those Fanboys who have to have an airtight system with everything figured out and nailed down? A system that they think over and construct for years and pin down everything, whether their final system matches reality or not? I figure he was like that, except in religion (theology) instead.” (He went on to describe how Mo was a caravan drover on long journeys across the Arabian Desert with a lot of time on his hands to think out his system on the job.) Main difference is Mo was blue-collar (equivalent of a long-haul truckdriver) and Calvin was a lawyer, used to thinking in black-and-white precise definitions as that is part of Law. Not sure how the kidney stones added to that but being in frequent severe pain from it couldn’t have helped. Maybe it gave Calvin “hardening of the attitudes” earlier in life or something.

  182. Patrice wrote:

    One can’t do literal readings of Douglas Wilson. He speaks/writes voluminously: a mix of true and false stuff, equivocations, contradictions, and occasional lies.

    Again, sounds like that pathological nonstop talker of a local fanboy I’ve cited as an example on some of these threads. Puts out so much volume of word salad you’re never sure which is for real and which is delusional. (Or whether Merlin practiced the Curse of Babel on him before using it on N.I.C.E.)

  183. @ Patrice:
    P.S. I remember my father saying “Only a lawyer can talk for three hours and say absolutely nothing.” I think this is a similar situation; so many words they end up contradicting each other.

    P.S.S. Or, on a more sinister bent, deliberate use of complex language and erudite terms to conceal and deceive. This was one of the continuing themes of Lewis’s fiction, from Screwtape to Space Trilogy.

  184. Mara wrote:

    And in the world of patriarchy, 13 year old girls, even ones raised in patriarchy, can be temptresses because even the cross of Jesus + patriarchy together aren’t strong enough to keep all women from sin.

    Same goes for the world of Talibanistan.

  185. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    But… that is an overly simplistic view of the cultures (more than one) of the Arabian Peninsula at that time, as well as bypassing the fact that those who are involved in trade (like the merchant Khadija and the 5ounge man she marti3d, Mohammed) tend to be exposed to and interested in many more ideas and things (from music to food to who knows what all else) than those who are more stay-at-home types. M. clearly incorporated ideas and figures from Judaism and xtianity into his thinking (they’re in the Qur’an), and likely many other 4hings as well, including some of his pre-monotheistic beliefs.

    Think about it: the Arabian Peninsula was a major part of already-existing trade routes that went from India – all the way down the East African coast, and which were linked to trade in the Mediterranean basin, as well as the overland Silk Road.

    Mohammed was illiterate, but a pretty sophisticated person in many ways, if the Qur’an itself is anything to go by. The only parallel I can think of (not the best, but it’ll do for now): the Netherlands and what is now coastal Belguim, from medieval times onward – the flow of trade produced very sophisticated, cosmopolitan cities and society in the Low Countries.

  186. @ numo:
    Young man she married…

    Btw, Khadija was very well-off from her business, and the 1st to believe in Mohammed’s visions/revelations.

  187. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Another bit of required reading for anyone who would want to join the hypothetical Church of the Right Rev Pappy. CS Lewis harped on this theme a lot and it seems his paranoia was justified. We’re seeing it here with DW. You and Patrice have just described his methods of communication accurately.

  188. @ Ken:
    I thought that article left much to be desired. This line for example “Allegedly, abuse of the infant son may have already taken place.”
    Unless she says who’s alleging this, it’s a meaningless statement which just gives fodder to Doug to say– see? they’re just slandering us!

  189. @ Patrice:
    Plus, DW is a fan of the Southern US variety of chattel slavery and a cult leader. I do not think he is really xtian, although he claims that he is.

    I also think he is not entirely sane.

  190. @ Patrice:
    His beliefs about slavery = racism plus hstorical revisionism writ large.

    I think his brand of supposed xtianity suffers from the same flaws.

  191. numo wrote:

    Plus, DW is a fan of the Southern US variety of chattel slavery and a cult leader. I do not think he is really xtian, although he claims that he is.

    I also think he is not entirely sane.

    The more I think about it, he’s a lot like Kurtz upriver in Joseph Conrad’s novella Heart of Darkness.

  192. Dave A A wrote:

    One FB commenter has already played the “bitterness” card and another the “witch hunt” card.

    One thing I can say for the Wilson followers, they have learned well how to play the bitterness and witch hunt cards . . .

  193. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    So how do you think the pain of kidney stones affected Calvin’s personality and theology?

    I have had two encounters with kidney stones. I have a high pain threshold but on both occasions eventually vomited from the pain. The pain is way more intense than any other pain I have experienced, and I have extensive experience. I have been under general anaesthetic about twenty times for surgery most of which was to repair serious sports injuries. Kidney stones are often accompanied by infection and a high fever. In one instance I was close to delirium. Modern painkillers are effective but the doses necessary often produce their own type of delirium. I have no idea how Calvin would have treated the pain but whatever he used would have affected his thinking.

  194. marquis wrote:

    I think the worst that I was told was that because I we all deserve hell and nothing better that my son deserved his assault and,am I not grateful that because we deserve no better Jesus died for me.

    Sorry to hear what has happened to you. I am glad that you have Dee on your side.

    Is this church Calvinist? This is what that believe. We are all just arachnids, hanging over God’s fire. We are not only totally depraved but totally worthless. Thank goodness, God is totally sovereign and we have not input, or else things would be worse for us scumbags.

    http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/scottysmith/2015/09/14/a-prayer-for-reaffirming-god-is-in-control-of-all-things-all-the-time/

  195. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    The mindset you describe, whereby English stuff is superior, is the photo-negative of the Hollywood mindset whereby Englishness is the source of all imperialistic scumbagdom. So you can have an American bad guy, but if you want a really sinister and evil character, he’ll generally have an English accent (cf Tom Hiddleston as Loki). To be fair, he can alternatively have a vaguely Germanic accent.

    Well, then that’s an improvement. I grew up on Forties and Fifties movies, and back then the Sinister and Evil Character usually had a Thick German Accent (Dr Strangelove independent arm optional). I remember complaints from actual German nationals about this (including “that ‘German’ accent is actually exaggerated Bavarian” and “why do they have to give their villains a German name?”). Now it’s mellowed down except for S.M.Stirling SF novels which still adhere to that trope.

    An alternate Sinister and Evil Character accent in the Fifties was Thick Psevdorussky sprinkled with Marxspeak and character names like (in one superhero cartoon) “Commissar” and his sidekick “Comrade”.

    According to one of my writing partners whose guilty pleasure is Pro Wrestling, both these accents were common among Heels in the Fifties and Sixties.

    Now back to Anglophilia strangeness:

    One guy I used to know was quite the Anglophile/Europhile. Not to the point of wearing bowler hats and pronouncing “Very” as “veddy”, but with still a “superior to us Colonials” streak. Another guy I knew cured him (at least of the Anglophilia) by singing “English Songs” to him — alleged Ork ditties from Warhammmer 40K with more missing ‘aitches than a Kipling poem dialect. Imagine something like this:

    “Moi IQ is seven,
    Moi brudder’s IQ is three;
    ‘E’s a ‘ole lot dimmer —
    ‘E’s sleeping under me!
    Thinking makes me brain ‘hurt,
    Thinking makes me dotty,
    Oi do moi best thinking
    When Oi’m sitting on the potty!
    ‘Ere We Go, ‘Ere We Go, ‘Ere We Go,
    ‘Ere We Go, ‘Ere We Go, ‘Ere We Go —
    Oi! It’s ENGLISH, Isn’t It?”

    I knew a lot of weird people….

  196. dee wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Don’t forget his cosplay as an 19th Century NOBLEMAN (never a commoner). Including taking a mistress by hitting on the help.

    Weird and weirder

    Yeah. If you’re into cosplay, AT LEAST ADMIT TO IT!

  197. Marquis: I just read your lengthy comment about your son’s abuse and the egregious behavior of your pastor with regard to it. I am familiar with that sort of Christanese response: Do you think you are any better than the abuser? Don’t you deserve hell as much as him? Make no mistake about it. It is meant to shut you up. It’s a…let’s move along here…..there’s nothing to see. We all sin and would you deny the abuser forgiveness in Christ? Oh yeah….lots of religiosity and sanctimonious clap trap is spent on minimizing the abuser’s wrongdoing and maximizing the perceived sin/s of the victim/s and any who support the victim. There are those within the Christian community who wise to their manipulation. Finally, bloggers like TWW, SSB, Amy’s blog, Boz T., A Cry For Justice, and MANY others are exposing these inept leaders.

  198. Yes this is a hard core calvinist church and this church in particular I believe treats it’s members as if they are mindless animals @ Will M:

  199. marquis wrote:

    Sorry for all my typos doing this from my phone. Dee sorry for all the frustration and anger coming out. This has been two long years of a church trying to shut me up, we’ll they tried.

    Women’s and children’s voices are meant to be silenced within certain church cultures as we know all too well. Just read over at the Bayly Blog recently where one women was told to “be quiet” because she was hurting over the way her husband had mistreated her and that qualified as bitterness and unforgiving in Pastor Tim’s estimation. Ah….the Bayly Blog, Blog and Mablog, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Wayne Grudem, and all the other Comp/Pats who find a thrill in saying: “Silence Woman!” You’re meant to take abuse and suffer for it quietly.

  200. Dave A A wrote:

    In this https://www.facebook.com/peter.roise/posts/10207677541674551
    Some folks who recently left their Kirk (apparently Trinity Reformed) have explained why.
    Sumpter relplies that the kirkelders have apologized for lots of stuff in the past, and will do so in the future (just not now). Lawyer says “Oh Peter” and a bunch of Kirkers are mad Perer put it on Facebook.

    This person stated on that Facebook post that he believes these churches (Christ Church and Trinity Reformed) will self-destruct. That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking. They will implode as more members are mistreated and just get sick and tired of it and leave.

  201. Another eye-opening quote on that Facebook post from a former Christ Church and Trinity Reformed member: (speaking about Jamin Wight) “We were part of the church that took his false repentance on faith, and welcomed him back into the privilege of trust which he had not earned.” IF ONLY DOUG WILSON WOULD ADMIT TO THIS!

  202. @ Darlene:
    I saw that. That’s rare public insight into inter-cult, uhh, interaction. The man had guts to post that where church members could see it. People don’t like dirty laundry aired.

  203. GovPappy wrote:

    @ Darlene:
    I saw that. That’s rare public insight into inter-cult, uhh, interaction. The man had guts to post that where church members could see it. People don’t like dirty laundry aired.

    Gov Pappy: You’er right – it is insight into inter-cult interaction. I’m quite familiar with that kind of reaction having been part of a Christian cult at one time. Notice how the loyalists to Wilson and TRC are so dismayed that this ex-CREC member is exposing the wrongdoing of church leaders? And the “we’re not perfect” card is getting old.

  204. marquis wrote:

    it’s members as if they are mindless animals

    Yes that is the way some of the Calvinists interpret things. We are all pretty pathetic, of course except for the leadership. Both you and your son sound wonderful to me. o theos agape estin – God is love. Any system that minimize the love of God has gone off the rails. And God’s love is directed toward people.

  205. @ Darlene:
    My old Fundy church went so far as to ban Facebook for members because of something like this – information control.

    I’m sure there will be some sort of unwritten, unstated repercussions for some of this.

    And did I read one of them right? They said they had spent at least a *100* hours being counseled by DW. How is that dependency on a MAN healthy??

  206. Bridget wrote:

    One thing I can say for the Wilson followers, they have learned well how to play the bitterness and witch hunt cards .

    The trouble is that some of his critics have dealt him these cards. That is what comes over, or else they are clearly at odds with doctrines Wilson expounds that they do not agree with, but which are not really relevant to the current issue.

    I think it also true that Wilson says thngs that some people don’t want to hear. But healing does not come about by teaching someone to become a victim for life struck a chord with me. I know from personal experience how hard it can be to let go if Christians (so-called) have mistreated you, being the last people on earth you would expect this from. That’s what makes it so difficult. I know how ‘hurt’ can morph into self-pity, and it doesn’t help you get rid of this if no-one will actually confront you with this but continues to give sympathy.

    It’s not something any of us wants to hear, but at some point the past has to stop determining the future. I’m sure many have experienced vastly worse than I have, but this must still be true even if it takes a very long time. And to be honest there are still some forms of churchianity that I am more than wary of, and rightly so. But that is no excuse to contract out of church for ever.

  207. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Thank you for posting this – I found it very useful. Especially confusing the right and wrong of morality with so many other things in life where genuine choice is available/legitimate.

  208. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    An alternate Sinister and Evil Character accent in the Fifties was Thick Psevdorussky sprinkled with Marxspeak and character names like (in one superhero cartoon) “Commissar” and his sidekick “Comrade”.

    We must not forget Natasha and Boris from “Rocky and Bullwinkle”! (Am further amazed that my phone’s predictive typing feature knows “Bullwinkle”!)

  209. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Also, regarding “evil & sinister British accents”, I credit Peter Cushing, Christopher Lee, and a LOT of Hammer Horror flicks for creating and reinforcing that trope.

  210. refugee wrote:

    We must not forget Natasha and Boris from “Rocky and Bullwinkle”!

    “WHERE EES MOOSE AND SQUIRREL?”

  211. Ken wrote:

    Especially confusing the right and wrong of morality with so many other things in life where genuine choice is available/legitimate.

    It occurred to me, Ken, that in authoritarian systems, moral mandates and wisdom decisions often get flipped. So, what normally would be considered an issue of moal right-or-wrong is just an option, and the issues where we are biblically given options have been turned into required conformity to the demands of a dictator. It sets up counterfeit gods who control their micro-universe.

    For instance, it seems to me that in Moscow, to stay with Christ Church you have to buy into Douglas Wilson’s system of “we always win” logic and theology deeply. That’s conformity to a man, and not commanded of anyone by the one true God.

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  213. @ Ken:

    I think it also true that Wilson says things that some people don’t want to hear. But healing does not come about by teaching someone to become a victim for life struck a chord with me. … It’s not something any of us wants to hear, but at some point the past has to stop determining the future.

    You don’t seem to be talking about Sitler here, but in a context where there is a lot of talk about whether or not Wilson believes pedophilia can be cured or improved by marriage, I just wanted to make sure – are you talking about Sitler, or abuse victims? I can see your point about abuse victims learning to move on, but pedophilia is essentially an incurable condition, and as I’ve said before, I’m extremely uncomfortable with Christians only talking about “miraculous transformation” stories in the context of something like pedophilia. It’s neither wise nor honest to present this as a likely outcome when we 1) know full well that it isn’t, and 2) would never say that about a purely physical condition like diabetes. In other words, a Christian assuming miraculous transformation will occur and therefore recommending that a pedophile get married and have children (i.e., what Wilson did), is pretty much the equivalent of a Christian assuming miraculous transformation will occur and therefore telling a diabetic not take their insulin. Again, I don’t think this is what you’re saying in this comment, but I just wanted to check because there are a lot of people out there who would say that about this case.

    I’d also pose the question of how Wilson knows that the victims have not moved on or healed, because just bringing up that something happened and was a problem does not automatically = bitterness or being stuck. This is pretty much the standard response whenever anyone brings up an injustice/wrong, and it may be true sometimes, but a lot of times it’s also just a genetic fallacy to dismiss the person’s point without dealing with it.

  214. refugee wrote:

    Please pray for our family. Very sad and stressful times.

    I’m really sorry to hear this & will be thinking of you.

  215. Ken wrote:

    …at some point the past has to stop determining the future. I’m sure many have experienced vastly worse than I have, but this must still be true even if it takes a very long time….But that is no excuse to contract out of church for ever.

    I have never met a person who faces their trauma honestly and also wants to stay there. I’m sure there are one or two, but it is a rare person who enjoys hanging out in the pain abyss.

    But I’m very glad that you recognize recovery can take a long time. Sadly, for some it takes a lifetime. For others, still believing in Jesus afterwards is a sign of courage. To require that they go back to the human system that wrecked them can be a bridge too far. It is for me.

    Besides, being a member of a church is not the same thing as being a member of God’s family, right? Being content to be a child of God is no failure.

  216. @ Ken:

    I’m really puzzled why you post to this blog on a regular basis, as you seem to usually take positions that are contrary, and in a hurtful way, to most of the participants on the blog, such as making excuses for doctrinal views or abusive behavior that hurt people (e.g., gender complementarianism, authoritarian pastors, etc).

    I have seen people, yes, who I personally feel are stuck in the past and won’t let go of past pain or anger, but I’m not comfortable, necessarily, with myself or with you or someone else dictating to other people definite term limits on their pain. That is one fine line to walk.

  217. @Ken,

    I hope you have the time to watch Pastor Jimmy Hinton’s very good 2+ hour video on teaching people how to protect children from sexual abuse, including from those at church. I have posted the link on the Open Discussion forum here and also under the Interesting tab (top of page), Movies, etc.

    Jimmy Hinton turned in his pastor/father for sexually abusing children at the church they have both pastored. The church was founded about 100 years ago and is a Church of Christ denomination. Jimmy’s father is serving a life sentence in prison for sexually abusing at least 23 victims in the church.

    Jimmy talks with great honesty and compassion about the damage done to victims from sexual abuse. At about the 1-hour mark in the training video another pastor tells his story about a church member who sexually abused the pastor’s disabled son and later murdered the pastor’s wife and disabled son.

    Both men talk with great candor about how sexual abuse casts a long shadow over many lives, including their own.

  218. Patrice wrote:

    To require that they go back to the human system that wrecked them can be a bridge too far. It is for me.

    You are very eloquent, Patrice. I regret that I ever judged people who didn’t go to church, especially Christians. Now that I have had a bad church experience, I listen to the people who don’t go to church, the incredible wounds and betrayals that were inflicted upon them. I now “get it”. And we are The Church. We don’t need a building.

  219. refugee wrote:

    Please pray for our family. Very sad and stressful times.

    I have started praying tonight for all of you, refugee.

  220. JeffT wrote:

    Doug Wilson is more dangerous to Christianity than any evolutionist, old earthier, atheist, or other ‘liberal’ ever was.

    Amen, & AMEN.

  221. Bridget wrote:

    Wilson does not seem to understand that pedophiles are sexually stimulated by children instead of by adults.

    Oh, I think he understands it. He seems, however, to simply not care. He acts, in fact, like a sociopath…..What he is, I do not know. I have an opinion, but its unprintable.

  222. numo wrote:

    @ Patrice:
    Plus, DW is a fan of the Southern US variety of chattel slavery and a cult leader. I do not think he is really xtian, although he claims that he is.

    I also think he is not entirely sane.

    I agree. He’s a screaming looney with a bully pulpit.

  223. numo wrote:

    …I also think he is not entirely sane.

    Layman’s analysis of personality disorder gone out of control? He seems to be holding himself together with his word webs, several every day.

    Comment over on Open Discussion.

  224. @ Hester:
    No, I wasn’t talking about Sitler here, more his victims (and any other victims of mistreatment), but trying not to be glib. A quick prayer and time to move on brother isn’t good enough, but neither is allowing genuine suffering at the hand of others to continue indefinitely to dominate someone’s life. It is possible to nurse grievances rather than heal, and sometimes confrontation may be needed rather than sympathy if self-pity is raising its ugly head. I know this from experience – but nothing remotely like child abuse.

    As far as paedophilia is concerned, it may be forgiven and justification that is instant is part of the gospel. Getting free from it, sanctification, is a long, and maybe lifelong process. I would imagine contact with children is off limits for life – if only to make sure. Like you I am sceptical of miraculous transformations, but without denying the possibility they can occur. That they don’t occur may be down to our over-intellectual western unbelief (‘that sort of thing stopped with the last Apostle’), but that said I don’t see in the NT where ‘instant’ sanctification is promised, but I do see an onus put on us to put to death the evil that is within us rather than expect God to do this for us. We need to be careful in claiming things God hasn’t promised as well as doubting things that he has.

    My post above was a bit contradictory – I do think we all need to move on from our past at some point, and by and large I have, yet in all honesty I am still a bit wary of churches – all the more so when you have a family to consider and the last thing you want them to experience is religious hypocrisy or gospel plus agenda. There are certain warning signs, for example, if someone mentions Latter Rain, I’m not going to hang around or some of the stuff on the bookstall can be a pretty good guide to where a church actually stands – as opposed to its statement of faith.

  225. Patrice wrote:

    To require that they go back to the human system that wrecked them can be a bridge too far. It is for me.
    Besides, being a member of a church is not the same thing as being a member of God’s family

    I have never myself equated church membership with being an authentic Christian. Sometimes the last person to actually be a believer in a family was a parent or even grandparent.

    I also know what it is like for the very idea of darkening the door of a church, mingling with those inside with their Big Black Bibles with gold lettering, concordance and Acceptable Set of Doctrines can make you want to throw up.

    It’s probably not right to have that attitude, but I’ve been there and got the T shirt. It’s also not right to stay like that indefinitely, wrongs do need to be put right if at all possible. And of course it is never one side who is completely in the wrong, and dealing with our own wrong attitudes or mistakes is just as important as wishing others would do the same. But those who have never been there with this rarely understand the reaction you can have to bust-ups and let-downs in church.

  226. JeffT wrote:

    Doug Wilson is more dangerous to Christianity than any evolutionist, old earthier, atheist, or other ‘liberal’ ever was.

    Other liberals like feminists and homosexuals.

    And yes, I agree. Men like Wilson have done more to destroy families than the most angry, man-hating, child-hating, marriage-hating, abortion-pushing feminist ever has.

    People run screaming from Jesus and the church due to men like Wilson.
    They run from his tyranny and lunacy into the arms of liberals, pagans, and atheists who appear to be way more reasonable, loving, and even Christ-like than Wilson.

  227. Daisy wrote:

    such as making excuses for doctrinal views or abusive behavior that hurt people (e.g., gender complementarianism, authoritarian pastors, etc).

    You will not find a single post where I would excuse authoritarianism or any wrong use of authority, whether in the church or in the home. Even my arguments about gender comoplementarianism are based on understanding what the bible says on this, and therefore by definition not abusive. You cannot never address these topics because people have been hurt by those claiming to hold to them, or because they have been taken to extremes or in other ways misused.

    I don’t post to be contrary, and in fact I think I agree with many who post here on a broad range of issues. I think it is healthy to expose your thinking to others who take a different view, and especially with complementarianism you can hardly accuse me of failing to do that! I’m rather glad this had died down for a while, I’m personally enjoying giving it a rest.

  228. Ken wrote:

    Even my arguments about gender comoplementarianism are based on understanding what the bible says on this, and therefore by definition not abusive. You cannot never address these topics because people have been hurt by those claiming to hold to them, or because they have been taken to extremes or in other ways misused.

    Complementarianism, even when rightly taught, is still harmful to people, and it’s not biblical, Ken.

    Remember, I was raised under the very gentle, kind and well-intentioned gender comp you champion. And it still created damage.

    Your have a distorted view of what the Bible says about gender and marriage.

  229. Ken wrote:

    You will not find a single post where I would excuse authoritarianism or any wrong use of authority, whether in the church or in the home.

    P.s. Gender complementarianism is of itself authoritarian, as it teaches God supports male hierarchy, male only authority. Women get no “say so” in this teaching.

    Also, you continually excuse, rationalize, or “water down” Doug Wilson’s behavior, which is, yes, supporting authoritarianism in preachers.

    You were rather victim-blaming in some post in this thread or another when you were pretty much telling people they don’t have a right to work through their pain no matter how long it takes, (even if done at the hands of an abusive church), because you feel they are being “bitter” or whatever word was that you used.

  230. Ken wrote:

    You will not find a single post where I would excuse authoritarianism or any wrong use of authority, whether in the church or in the home

    To the best of my knowledge, Ken, neither have you posted a single verse that commands husbands or men in general to have authority over wives or women in general. The absence of such a command or entitlement completely invalidates the complementarian position.

    On the other hand, there are over 50 verses that endorse treatment and behavior that is mutually beneficial to both parties as well as all believers regardless of age, gender, or ethnicity. These cannot be ignored or relegated to all believers except husbands.

    The foundation of complementarianism is built on sand.

  231. @ Daisy:
    i) I’ve never advocated women getting no say so, and I’ve never heard anyone else say this either. This is a straw man or continued use of stereotypes. Even I know that not all feminists are Ms, have a degree in gender studies and are devoted to their cat. I’ve seen complementarian marriages in the UK where what you claim just doesn’t apply. I would no more claim this is universal than you can claim complementarianism is only ever harmful.

    ii) You will also be hard put to find where I am justifying Douglas Wilson’s behaviour. Being critical of his critics is not the same thing as ‘supporting’ him. His Internet critics are allowing him imo to win the propaganda war hands-down at the moment. There really are some quite stupid things being said currently, and this gives him plenty of scope to discuss this rather than face the more awkward question of whether he lacked wisdom/had the wool pulled over his eyes in how he acted.

    iii) I’ve also done no victim-blaming nor said they don’t need time to get over bad experiences. I was in fact talking about my own experience on this up to a point. But it’s true that self-pity (which is a variant of self-love) can raise its ugly head, and can be very difficult to deal with. If I do blame anyone for creating eternal victims, it would be those who keep wanting to ‘minister’ to people who have been hurt in such a way as to fullfill a need to be needed. For everything there is a time and season. Sometimes it is simply to listen sympathetically and exercise the gift of mercy – maybe for a considerable period of time; sometimes it is to move people on from being concerned solely with themselves and their problems. (If you’re a Jane Austen fan, Mr Wickham type characters who only talk about how hard done by they have been.) And it requires wisdom to know what to do when.

    I still think Daisy that you have got me in a box but the label on it doesn’t quite fit.

  232. To an extent I think Ken is right. I think that in the past, part of the reason why DW has been able to escape scrutiny is that he has been the master of infuriating his interlocutors in a way that enables him to then lay claim to the high ground.

    In that sense, a kind of ‘just the facts, ma’am’, approach may actually work the best.

  233. Chris S wrote:

    I think that in the past, part of the reason why DW has been able to escape scrutiny is that he has been the master of infuriating his interlocutors in a way that enables him to then lay claim to the high ground.

    That’s a trick my probable NPD/possible sociopath younger brother used on me all the time. Teasing and needling and teasing belittling and teasing (covert verbal abuse so precisely-targeted on my weak spots as to be unrecognizable as abuse to anyone else, providing total plausible deniability), day after day, week after week, month after month without letup until I finally cracked and attacked him. That made me The Crazy One and him the Poor Poor Innocent Victim.

    Fifteen years without letup (and nothing physical I could point to and say “abuse”.)
    The damage is still there.

    Yes, I understand very well how DW can claim the Moral High Ground.

  234. Ken wrote:

    And of course it is never one side who is completely in the wrong, and dealing with our own wrong attitudes or mistakes is just as important as wishing others would do the same.

    That is a truism, often but not always correct. Now/then it is simply one person’s fault. More often, an initiating aggressive wrong is responded to with a small wrong, yet the two are equated.

    And then there’s the repentance end. I remember voicing sorrow for saying mean things in response to abusive acts, but the initiating abusive acts were never recognized by my abuser. My sorrow allowed him to keep me the only sinner in the situation. After a while, it became apparent that my small repentings made us recede further from the truth, so I stopped.

    Living with an abuser turns life upside down and backwards, no? The path with God through such a mess, is long and winding with lots of unexpected switch-backs and some need of rock-climbing rope. 😉

  235. Velour wrote:

    And we are The Church. We don’t need a building.

    Yes. We do need a few others around us who believe as we do. (Glad I have that.) I miss singing and communion. But missing these things hasn’t been hurting me—and I keep an eye on that.

  236. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    (covert verbal abuse so precisely-targeted on my weak spots as to be unrecognizable as abuse to anyone else, providing total plausible deniability), day after day, week after week, month after month without letup until I finally cracked and attacked him. That made me The Crazy One and him the Poor Poor Innocent Victim.

    Sorry that happened to you, HUG.

    It creates a peculiar kind of hypervigilant distrust/anxiety. And a deep self-doubt that is very hard to shed. (I know cuz my dad and bro did that to me too.)

  237. Ken wrote:

    The trouble is that some of his critics have dealt him these cards. That is what comes over, or else they are clearly at odds with doctrines Wilson expounds that they do not agree with, but which are not really relevant to the current issue.

    I will say very simply that you do not understand what Wilson is like or what his “movement” is like. If you did, I’m quite sure you would not say this.

  238. refugee wrote:

    Please pray for our family. Very sad and stressful times.

    So very sorry for what your family is enduring. I will pray.

  239. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    That’s a trick my probable NPD/possible sociopath younger brother used on me all the time. Teasing and needling and teasing belittling and teasing (covert verbal abuse so precisely-targeted on my weak spots as to be unrecognizable as abuse to anyone else, providing total plausible deniability), day after day, week after week, month after month without letup until I finally cracked and attacked him. That made me The Crazy One and him the Poor Poor Innocent Victim.

    Thank you, HUG. This captures what Wilson and his fellow-travelers do to those who oppose them. Sadly, too many people want to maintain “objectivity” and end up excusing or minimizing the damage that manipulators do.

  240. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    That’s a trick my probable NPD/possible sociopath younger brother used on me all the time. Teasing and needling and teasing belittling and teasing (covert verbal abuse so precisely-targeted on my weak spots as to be unrecognizable as abuse to anyone else, providing total plausible deniability), day after day, week after week, month after month without letup until I finally cracked and attacked him. That made me The Crazy One and him the Poor Poor Innocent Victim.
    Fifteen years without letup (and nothing physical I could point to and say “abuse”.)

    HUG, your words struck such a chord in me…I have experienced the very same thing from siblings and then shamed when I finally decided they had crossed by boundaries and I lost my temper. Little digs, slight sarcasm, rolled eyes, and backhanded disagreements with a smile on their faces. Hurts…killing me softly.

  241. Patrice wrote:

    my sorrow allowed him to keep me the only sinner in the situation. After a while, it became apparent that my small repentings made us recede further from the truth, so I stopped.

    Yes. At some point, we become an “enabler” by doing so. Such people target those who are easily manipulated….usually people who want to do the right thing. They are most easily manipulated. Truth becomes a casualty in this dynamic and forgiveness used as a weapon. Christians are not called to be doormats or enablers of those who use deception to do evil to others.

    What if we are accountable for helping evil to do more evil?

  242. Ken wrote:

    You will also be hard put to find where I am justifying Douglas Wilson’s behaviour. Being critical of his critics is not the same thing as ‘supporting’ him. His Internet critics are allowing him imo to win the propaganda war hands-down at the moment. There really are some quite stupid things being said currently, and this gives him plenty of scope to discuss this rather than face the more awkward question of whether he lacked wisdom/had the wool pulled over his eyes in how he acted.

    I would differ in this way. DW comes off as a serious narcissist. Perhaps even sociopathic in some ways. There is no “win” with a narcissist except to totally avoid them. Nothing hurts them more than being ignored. That does not mean not reporting the facts of the situation. That must be done. But there is no reason to engage him. His actions over the years speak loud enough. People like DW love an audience. They live for it.

    DW will win any argument because he seems to have no moderating conscious and prizes himself as a clever wordsmith constantly deflecting. He lives for the engagement.

    So what would be the point of engagement? He is more of an entertainer than anything spiritually substantial. He is toxic.

  243. Victorious wrote:

    To the best of my knowledge, Ken, neither have you posted a single verse that commands husbands or men in general to have authority over wives or women in general. The absence of such a command or entitlement completely invalidates the complementarian position.

    This is true. And Gram 3 has asked many times.

  244. Ken wrote:

    The trouble is that some of his critics have dealt him these cards. That is what comes over, or else they are clearly at odds with doctrines Wilson expounds that they do not agree with, but which are not really relevant to the current issue.

    So what you believe as truth has no bearing on your behavior/decisions/choices?

  245. Ken wrote:

    That is what comes over, or else they are clearly at odds with doctrines Wilson expounds that they do not agree with, but which are not really relevant to the current issue.

    I think you still do not understand the core issue with Wilson and his fellow travelers. Their religion is not the Christian faith, though it sounds something like it and uses the same words. Their religion is power which they believe they have been granted by God to rule over the people. The Sitler and Wight debacles are *instances* of the much wider application of this religion of power. They believe that God has instituted the Christian church to be the means of salvation. Think about 9Marks then dial it to 15. This is exactly the opposite of what Jesus taught his disciples to do. It is anti-Christian.

    ISTM that you cannot get past the gender issue to see that the underlying issue is a corruption of the Christian faith into a pagan-like power religion where the demi-gods like Wilson (or 9Marks) rule over other people. They recruit people to their religion by guarantees they cannot fulfill and promises to others that they also can have status and rule over other people, namely their wives and children. You really have no idea what this is about and the devastation these people have brought. Sitler and Wight are not an accident just like Karen Hinkley at The Village was not an accident. They are all predictable outcomes of a toxic system that is a corruption of the true faith.

    And, as for professional victims, Wilson is a master of that art. He is as whiny as they come.

  246. Daisy wrote:

    P.s. Gender complementarianism is of itself authoritarian, as it teaches God supports male hierarchy, male only authority. Women get no “say so” in

    Even in the kindest, gentlest forms, complementarianism teaches that women and children are property ~~ women in particular. Little boys grow up to be men, but little girls grow up to be property. Women and girls must rejoice and be thankful because God created woman to serve and to please man. Our lives are controlled by and subject to the beliefs, decisions, and whims of the men. How we serve and worship God must be controlled by and approved by men ~~ from Bible study to the songs we sing to the fellowship meals. Church is for men. Women are merely the men’s servants ~~ not God’s servants!

  247. Nancy2 wrote:

    How we serve and worship God must be controlled by and approved by men ~~ from Bible study to the songs we sing to the fellowship meals. Church is for men

    Precisely.

    Yet, many men keep claiming over and over that church is too “feminine” and has become “feminized.”

    I don’t see how it’s possible for most churches to be “feminized,” since most are into male hierarchy (gender comp), which teaches only men get to make decisions; women get no authority.

    If you go down this page, the author points out that Roman Catholics have now taken a page out of Protestant gender complementarian playbooks to blame women for the decline in male RCC membership, and so they have created something called “Emangelization,” which emphasizes male-ship in the church even more than they already do.

    It’s absurd. Here is the page which mentions it:
    https://tictocministries.wordpress.com/2015/10/08/pastors-in-drag-russell-moore-biblical-manhood-the-fruit-test/

    So many Christians (especially male ones) blame women for everything that goes down hill, ever since Adam back in the Garden: “God, it’s the woman you gave me.”

  248. Daisy wrote:

    So many Christians (especially male ones) blame women for everything that goes down hill, ever since Adam back in the Garden: “God, it’s the woman you gave me.”

    Which shows precisely that the church is chasing after the flesh, the sins of men, and have forgotten the teachings of Jesus Christ and the leadings of the Holy Spirit.
    They are the church of the first Adam, the damned Adam. There is no room for the second Adam in their worship and expression. Therefore this is no room for women.

  249. Gram3 wrote:

    And, as for professional victims, Wilson is a master of that art. He is as whiny as they come.

    The rampant persecution, the tortuous twisting of his words, the deliberate lies, and indeed, the repeated crucifixion of his very soul—all the horrors of the evil world against which his front door barely holds!

    …writes Wilson while coddling a whiskey in his easy chair after his wife has brought him dinner. In the garden, outside his bedroom window, his boy-band raps evening compliments in Latin.

    hooyah-booyah

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