[Updated 2] Pedophile Supported by Doug Wilson ‘Allegedly Sexually Abused** a Baby. Christians: There Is No Excuse. This Must Stop!

"But it's like especially virulent TB. God can cure, but in meantime we quarantine." @XianAtty-Twitter 9/4/15

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*TRIGGER WARNING: DISCUSSION OF THE PREVENTABLE MOLESTATION OF A BABY*

The Hall of Shame:  Steven Sitler, Doug Wilson, Katie Sitler, Katie's parents, Steven's parents, Judge John Stegner, and various members of Christ Church  

**Update: 9/12/15 In light of the various reports coming out about Steven Sitler, it does seem possible that he is sexually stimulated while having contact with his baby. He has been removed from the house until new chaperones can be trained and placed. The question for me remains is this. If he was merely sexually stimulated while being with his baby and not outwardly acting on this stimulation, then how would the chaperones know this to be the case? It would seem unfair that his wife and parents, the former chaperones, would be removed from their role if this was something merely internal. So, what actually happened? Whatever happened it was serious enough to remove him from the home until nee and trained chaperones could watch him very, very closely. I apologize if I seem confused. I am and I used to work with abused children. 

Update 9/6/15 There appears to be some debate whether or not Steven Sitler physically molested the baby or became sexually stimulated while having contact with the baby. The judge was concerned enough that he removed Katie and Steve's parents from being chaperones. Katie will have to undergo further training to be reinstated as a chaperone.

Secondly, there is rumor going around that Steven is not a pedophile but nepiophilie.

 A Nepiophile is like a Pedophile, a person (male or Female) sexually attracted to Children, but has an attraction to a younger age like babies and Toddlers and up to preschool children.

The term does not mean having a sexual relationship with the infant. In fact despite this attraction a majority of Nepiophiles even Pedophiles do do not seek nor have those kind of relationships. This term is reserved to Molesters. Many Nepiophiles will become close friends to 1 or 2 children (sometime more) in their life times. They will help them, protect them from any harm. The child will be happy to see him/her and sad when he/she leaves. 

He is a pedophile based on his history of molesting children. He was sent to jail for doing so. I am deeply concerned that there may be an effort to downplay what is going on with Sitler.

The Legal Dictionary defines molestation as well as molestation by a family member short of rape

Molestation:the crime of sexual acts with children up to the age of 18, including touching of private parts, exposure of genitalia, taking of pornographic pictures, rape, inducement of sexual acts with the molester or with other children, and variations of these acts by pedophiles. Molestation also applies to incest by a relative with a minor family member, and any unwanted sexual acts with adults short of rape.


I am hopping mad. I could barely contain myself when I heard about this situation. I am so angry it was all I could do to write this post. I am sure that my anger is on display throughout the narrative. I was going to go back and tone it down. But, I decided if I am not allowed to get angry over an entirely preventable molestation of a little baby, then something is amiss. So, here I am in all my frustration.

You see, I knew something bad would happen with this pedophile in 2012 when I wrote a hard hitting post about the goings on with Doug Wilson and his beloved pedophile. Let me bring you to the present and then walk you back.

Sometime this past spring, Steven Sitler, a convicted, serial pedophile and much beloved member of Doug Wilson's church, had a son, their first child, with his wife, Katie. Normally such pregnancy and births, along with baptisms, are written about in the Christ Church public bulletin. But, according to Moscow, Idaho's intrepid Rosemary Huskey, a local thorn in Doug Wilson's side, all of this was kept hush, hush. Few realized his wife was pregnant. Almost everyone in town knows that Steven is a pedophile. Such an announcement would be viewed with concern by the residents who are not members of Doug Wilson's church which some in town call a "cult".

Steven Sitler is the type of pedophile who enjoys sexually abusing little children and babies. Yes, you read that right. Babies! He has received time in prison in the past and was now on probation. There was also a little caveat to his sentence. If his marriage produced a baby, he could never be alone with any children, both in the home or anywhere else. He needed to have a chaperone with him at all times. The judge, whom this blogger thinks has shown great naïveté, (Does he know Doug Wilson, perhaps?) said that his wife, Katie, could be one of those chaperones! It is also believed that his parents may have been chaperones. Good night!

Steven Sitler *allegedly* molested his own baby boy!!! It is highly probably that his wife allowed it to happen – mulitple times!!

I can barely write this because my hands are shaking. The act is heinous in and of itself. But it was totally preventable. As you will see, Doug Wilson and his church encouraged this marriage, knowing that Sitler was a multiple offender. On September 2, 20/15, CorrectionsOne.Com published Idaho sex offender allowed to return home with child.

 During Tuesday's review hearing, Latah County Prosecuting Attorney Bill Thompson said the state originally requested a review of Sitler's conditions of probation to provide guidance on how to move forward given the fact Sitler had fathered a child and the results of a polygraph test had disclosed concerning actions.

Thompson said information the court now has "shows (Sitler) has had contact with his child that resulted in actual sexual stimulation." Thompson said the incidents in question occurred while Sitler was chaperoned.

"In some extent the state's worst fears appeared to be realized by some of the recent disclosures in the polygraphs," Thompson said.

"The actions that he has engaged in and disclosed are a compelling basis that he cannot have anything close to a normal parental relationship at this time with his child," Thompson said. "Everybody would love for Mr. Sitler to become a normal person, but the fact is he is not. He is a serial child sexual abuser.

Did you catch that? The incidents (plural) occurred when the chaperones were with him. That means his wife and maybe his parents. She is allowing her husband to have contact with their baby! I need to know why she wasn't arrested as well. She should be.

It was recommended that he not live at home with the baby but Judge Stegner, in my opinion, made a dangerous concession.

"The best way to protect is to prohibit contact except in direct line of vision with a responsible, approved chaperone. At this point in time, that means he would not be able to reside with his wife and child."

It appears the judge was not willing to prevent him from living with his wife and son. Instead, they would need to have "line of sight" trained chaperones with him whenever he was with the baby. The judge even suggested his wife, who had allowed this behavior in the home, could be reinstated as a chaperone after *training!* 

Latah County 2nd District Judge John Stegner did not rule Tuesday on whether Sitler can live in the home or not, only that he must have an approved, "line-of-sight" chaperone present at all times when with the child, Thompson said.

Stegner said Sitler's wife could be reinstated as a chaperone with additional training at the Valley Treatment Centers.

The prosecutor says it is troubling that Sitler cannot pass any lie detector tests. I say it is troubling that it is even more troubling that the judge allows this molester to have contact with his child. Shame on him!

Stegner also said Sitler must go through relapse prevention therapy and complete and pass another polygraph test. Thompson said it is troubling that Sitler has yet to successfully complete a polygraph test and it is concerning that there may still be more that hasn't been disclosed.

The Facebook page for the Palouse News, quoting from the Moscow-Pullman Daily News, added:

Sitler, 30, of Moscow, was sentenced to life in prison, with retained jurisdiction, in September 2006 under a Rule 11 plea agreement with the state for lewd conduct with a child under 16. 

He served one year with the Idaho Department of Corrections' retained jurisdiction treatment programs and less than a year in the custody of the Latah County Jail before being released onto probation. Under the terms of his probation, Sitler is prohibited from associating with anyone under the age of 18 without supervision of an approved chaperone.

Doug Wilson has quite a reputation in Moscow, Idaho.

However, it was the comments of the more thoughtful locals on the Palouse News Facebook that I found revealing.

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Reports from the locals seem to indicate that the Christ Church members will now be Steven's chaperones.

This is the church which supported Steven Sitler, believed he was really a good guy, approved of his marriage to a sweet, young and naive woman in the church and back in 2012, left some pretty strong comments at TWW when I posted this story.

Who is Doug Wilson?

Doug Wilson is a much beloved pastor whom The Gospel Coalition has posted 52 times. John Piper admires him. Tim Challies is a fan. Wilson is beloved of R.C. Sproul and Al Mohler. He is even quoted over at 9MarksKevin DeYoung thinks Wilson is wise. Do these men approve of Doug Wilson's handling of pedophiles as well as his views on race and sex? They sure seem to quote him a bunch. Why do so many in this group appear to support those who have some serious baggage? I don't get it! I guess secondary theology trumps mercy, love and justice. Kids seem to be treated as second class citizens to celebrity BFFs.

Wilson has some strange views which consistently get him in trouble.

Back to 2012

In July of that year, we posted The Real Doug Wilson Encouraged & Presided Over the Marriage of Serial Pedophile.  The following information is taken directly from the post.

Who Is Doug Wilson?

Doug Wilson appears to have a penchant for role playing. ”He calls his church a “kirk” which is correct, but it is usually seen in Scotland, not in Moscow, Idaho. In fact, he seems to love all things Scottish and also seem to enjoy using the word “confederation”. Link

“Wilson earned a B.A. in classical studies and a B.A. and an M.A. in philosophy from the University of Idaho. In addition to his role as pastor of Christ Church, he is a founder and Senior Fellow in Theology at New Saint Andrews College, founder and editor of Credenda/Agenda magazine, and founder of Greyfriars Hall, a three-year ministerial training program. He also serves on the governing boards of New Saint Andrews, Logos School (a Christian private school), and the Association of Classical and Christian Schools. Wilson was instrumental in forming the Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches.”

Here is a link to his blog: Blog and Mablog.

So what’s the deal with the "kirk" member pedophile, Steve Sitler?

Please understand that this pedophile was not a family member. He confessed to multiple molestations of little children. But, this is not going to be another article on pedophilia, per se. It is about a breath-taking misunderstanding of marriage as you will see.

“Sitler attended New St. Andrews College for eighteen months, during which time he boarded with a Christ Church family. New St. Andrews students are encouraged to board in local Christian homes.” Link

Sitler molested multiple young children and found a support in Doug Wilson

From the Southern Poverty Law Center, we learn some of the story from an article titled Idaho Pastor a Hard-Liner, With an Exception or Two. 

“This summer, the Moscow-Pullman Daily News published a story on "rumors" that Wilson, who controls an extreme-right religious empire in Moscow, and his New Saint Andrews College had tried to "cover up" serial sexual molestations by a college student — molestations of very young boys and girls carried out over several years. Although the newspaper quoted none of them, many people were angry that Wilson had failed to notify families in his Christ Church for eight months after Steven Sitler confessed to him in March 2005. One church family with young children had boarded Sitler, and others welcomed him as a visitor in their homes (Sitler molested one 2-year-old girl in a similar visiting situation in Colville, Wash.). Critics complained that Wilson's lack of action had eliminated the possibility of identifying other victims in the community.

Wilson and college officials told the newspaper that they had immediately kicked Sitler out of school and notified police of his crimes, but decided not to inform members of the public because of concerns for victims' privacy.

Five months after Sitler's confession, another man who had been boarded by a Christ Church family while he studied to become a minister there was arrested and ultimately pleaded guilty to lewd conduct with an underage girl. When details of the matter came up on a local blog run by a disgruntled Wilson follower, part of the pastor's response was to liken the blogger to "a sucking chest wound."

What may have been most remarkable about the entire affair was Wilson's role in the case of Sitler, who he ministered to after Sitler was caught. Wilson wrote the sentencing judge in Sitler's case, describing him as "most responsive" and "completely honest" and asking that criminal penalties be "measured and limited."

Wilson asked for “measured and limited civil penalties” for this pedophile.

Free Jinger links to sources on their blog reports here.

“On August 19th, 2005, three or four months before notifying his parishioners of Sitler's crimes, Doug Wilson wrote a letter on Christ Church letterhead to Judge John Stegner. In that letter, Wilson requested leniency for Steven Sitler, writing:

"I would urge that the civil penalties applied would be measured and limited. I have a good hope that Steven has genuinely repented, and that he will continue to deal with this to become a productive and contributing member of society."

Wilson says he “covers up sin for a living.”

(Continuing in Free Jinger) “Doug Wilson has written that he believes Sitler was delusional when he was molesting children. Wilson has no training in psychology or counseling, not even ministerial training. Wilson is not ordained. In response to criticism that he did not warn his congregation or the greater Moscow community in an adequate or timely fashion, Wilson writes: "I am a pastor. I cover up sins for a living."

Sitler had a short stay in jail from what appears to be a plea deal and will have parole supervision for the rest of his life.

In another article titled More on the Steven James Sitler Child Molestation Case link

“He will remain subject to the jurisdiction of the Idaho Correctional System for the rest of his natural life, regardless of whether he is incarcerated or under community probation or parole supervision.“

“Wilson wrote, "I have good hope that Steven has genuinely repented, and that he will continue to deal with this to become a productive and contributing member of society.”

Wilson responds to criticism of his role in this matter. Link

He appears to believe that he did nothing wrong. However, I will give him props for one action and only one action. He did make sure the police were notified.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THIS NEXT PART!!! (Tipping over the tables time.)

The “Kirk” gets Sitler married!

Christ “Kirk” with Doug Wilson presiding over the event, married off Sitler to a 23 year old woman by the name of Katie Travis!  You may read the whole sordid tale here at Prevailing Winds.

“The background is rather simple. This young woman moved into the home of an elder at the “kirk” because she moved to teach to one of the affiliated schools. She asked the Iversons to help her find a mate because she wanted to get married. They found one-Steve Sitler who asked her parents for permission to date her. They gave their blessings.”

Read Steve’s gushing excitement about this marriage which he posted on the Internet.  (Link is dead on 9/4)

“We met on August 18th, 2010 at the insistence of Mr. and Mrs. Iverson. One week later we were writing emails like it was going out of style. On Katie’s first visit back to Moscow in October, we had our first date, after which I asked her father if I could start courting her. I got the pleasure of spending Christmas break with Katie’s awesome family and decided on a whim to ask her to “merry” (misspelling intentional, more on that later) me on our second date. Of course it wasn’t really a whim, I had been meticulously planning it for months. She was shocked… and speechless, but finally she said yes, and the rest, as they say, is history. I love you., Katie”

One problem: They needed to get a judge to OK this marriage due to the possibility of children and concerns raised by officials.

Thanks to Rose Huskey, link, who has relentlessly pursued this story, we learn that the "happy" couple needed to get permission from the courts to get married. Warning: whenever you need a judge's OK to get married, some questions need to be asked. (Ed. note 9/4/15-Note the judge's name.)

“This morning I sat in a nearly empty courtroom and listened to arguments regarding the June 11th marriage of Steven Sitler and Katie Travis. The Department of Corrections unambiguously stated that they did not support this marriage.   In late March Mr. Sitler told his probation officer that ina year or so (predicated, apparently, on Miss Travis' graduation from a college program) they want to start a family.  Following that conversation,and because of the potential risk to any children Mr. Sitler might father, the DOC (Department of Corrections) requested further psychological evaluation of Mr. Sitler. The results of his AASI = Abel Assessment for Sexual Interest raised concerns.”

“Mr. Wallenwaber, representing Steven Sitler, challenged the appropriateness of the test in Mr. Sitler's case, as well as the academic credentials of the evaluator. Mr.Wallenwaber also argued that the issue in front of the court today was marriage, not potential children, which seemed to me to be an accurate statement.”

“The discussion amongst Latah County Prosecutor , Bill Thompson; Judge Stegner; and Mr. Wallenwaber, focused, in part,  on the legal consequence if/when Steven Sitler and Katie Travis have children.  It may be the case that Mr. Sitler will not be allowed to share a home with his wife and child or children.  This remedy may be utilized in Idaho when the father is a convicted pedophile.  Judge Stegner ruled that the wedding could go forward and issues regarding the protection of children will be addressed if and children are a factor in the marriage.

The Wedding Video Clearly Showing Doug Wilson's Participation

The following is the wedding video made of Katie and Steve’s wedding. It made me feel sick to my stomach especially when the parents get up to extol Katie and Steve’s relationship.

Oh yeah, in the video, Doug Wilson praises Sitler for his “logical and analytic skills that were given to him by God.” Is there any sanity at all in this group of people? May God have mercy on Katie as she faces the trials that are sure to come.

Addendum 9/4/15

Guess what? The video is now not available for viewing. However, if I remember correctly (others seem to remember as well), Wilson, during the prayer time, asked for

the gift and heritage of children,"

This gives me the shakes. How could they pray for such a thing? Addendum 9/8/15-An elderly gentleman tasked with saying a prayer for the wedding prayed for the gift of children.

Let me leave you with some questions that I had back in 2012 and wrote on that post. I think you might find my concerns logical.

Questions

  • What parent would encourage and participate in such a marriage? (I would have popped him one, kidnapped my daughter and fled to the Tortolas).
  • What sort of pastor and church leader would fix up a naive young woman with an admitted, convicted, multiple victim pedophile?
  • What will happen to the children who will surely be born into this mess? I hope the courts are watching very, very carefully.
  • How will their children feel as they age and learn that their mother deliberately exposed them to danger?
  • How will they feel if they are removed from the home because of their potentially dangerous father?
  • Is Katie receiving therapy?
  • How could Doug Wilson ever be held up as any sort of “expert” on Christian marriage after this situation?
  • What does this say about Wilson’s views on women?
  • What does this say about Wilson’s views on pedophilia?
  • Does Doug Wilson believe that Katie should submit to a serial pedophile because he is a male?
  • Does Sitler have authority over Katie?

Shame on Doug Wilson.

Doug Wilson is using the life of a young woman to shore up his cheap view of grace. A pedophile supposedly "repents" and is now a member of Wilson's "Kirk". Since Wilson "knows" Sitler is OK, it is business as usual. 

Talk about delusion. I believe this is a deplorable situation. Real repentance would be shown if Sitler gave up all possibility of being near children. The children should mean more to him than his own happiness. This is not the case with his marriage unless he has been castrated, and I have heard nothing about such a procedure.

Last week, we featured a video by John Piper in which he says "Doug Wilson really gets the Gospel." This is a link to that post. I think it is high time that Piper, Wilson and their like-minded followers in The Gospel Coalition stop playing with the lives of vulnerable followers in order to play doctrinal gender games. Shame on all of you.


  • Special thanks to Rosemary Huskey. Continue to be a pain in Doug Wilson's side. I want to see your elk one day. By the way, you are truly a plain spoken Quaker and you speak the truth well.
  • Please read Julie Anne Smith's excellent post on this matter. Julie Anne and I had a good conversation on this matter. I don't know which one of us is madder. Julie Anne as well as I are officially members of the much feared "gal pal bloggers*.
  • Apparently, Doug Wilson has decided to say something. I will print it when it occurs.

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Comments

[Updated 2] Pedophile Supported by Doug Wilson ‘Allegedly Sexually Abused** a Baby. Christians: There Is No Excuse. This Must Stop! — 483 Comments

  1. Wilson’s encouragement of this marriage enabled sick, twisted evil. I am so angry I am shaking. Words fail me.

  2. This news turned my stomach when I heard about yesterday. I had many of the same questions as you listed above, Dee. I’ll add a few more.

    What is the judge in this case thinking?

    Why did the state allow Sitler to be married in the first place?

    Why hasn’t the state removed the child from the home?

    Why isn’t the judge(s) listening to the parole and correction officers about the danger Sitler poses?

    Why would the judge trust anyone at the this church to be a chaperone when they all seem to be okay with Sitler marrying Katie?

    Why isn’t Sicker still in jail to begin with?

    How did a life sentence get reduced to one year, a wife, and now a child for possible abuse?

    The entire thing stinks like garbage and the children of this marriage are at extremely high risk to be abused and/or have emotional trauma because of their father and mother if she does not leave with the child.

  3. Special thanks to Rosemary Huskey. Continue to be a pain in Doug Wilson’s side.

    Yes. And thanks, also, to Tom Hansen, who continues to post documents pertaining to Sitler’s case.
    http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/
    A commenter on SSB posted a link where Tom says he will be adding documents from the current hearings to his collection.

  4. It has become very clear that much of evangelical ‘Christianity’ has no real problem with men who sexually molest children. As for Doug Wilson, he’s a sick and twisted pervert who doesn’t have the moral capacity to be considered human much less a Christian one.

  5. Though not as depraved as Steven Sittler, Jammin Wight and his story says a lot about Wilson too. You might wanna look into that one aswell.

  6. I decided if I am not allowed to get angry over an entirely preventable molestation of a little baby, then something is amiss. So, here I am in all my frustration.

    Somebody needs to stand up for that baby! His mother, grandparents, and the justice system are failing him!

  7. Its not just Evangelical Christianity, its the church universal. Catholic priests? Lets face the truth, sexual sin and all types of perversions are an epidemic in the Body of Christ. And its always the other persons church or fellowship! Not my church, we’re the holy ones! I’m no prude,and no holy Joe, so I’m not above this but, really, boy do we need the HolySpirit to help us!

  8. St.Thomas wrote:

    Its not just Evangelical Christianity, its the church universal. Catholic priests? Lets face the truth, sexual sin and all types of perversions are an epidemic in the Body of Christ. And its always the other persons church or fellowship! Not my church, we’re the holy ones! I’m no prude,and no holy Joe, so I’m not above this but, really, boy do we need the HolySpirit to help us!

    Considering the Good Lord gave us brains, it’s time to kick them into gear and use them! Why didn’t Doug Wilson use his brains? What is wrong with these men?

  9. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I decided if I am not allowed to get angry over an entirely preventable molestation of a little baby, then something is amiss. So, here I am in all my frustration.

    Somebody needs to stand up for that baby! His mother, grandparents, and the justice system are failing him!

    Absolutely. The best interest of the child would be to get him out of that dangerous, sick, lunatic environment. It disgusts me the State has not intervened on the child’s right not to be abused.

  10. Time to haul his sorry perverted arse back to prison, for his wife to get a divorce & stupid naïve idiots like Doug Wilson to wise up.

    Doug Wilson- this is partly on you, what did you think a paedophile with an interest in tiny children was going to do when he had access one? Do you also pray for the cat to have access to the mouse? You are making an UTTER MOCKERY of the Christian faith, how could you be so bl**dy stupid?

    That poor baby. But hey, what’s an abused baby matter when you’re pushing a pretend miracle of God?

  11. Do Douglas Wilson and his ilk have no real faith in the God of the Bible? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has no need for pedophile “conversion” narratives to be trotted out and put on display as a means to preach the gospel. Guys, put your money where your mouth is and let God be God…let His Word stand and do what He means it to do. Stop manipulating people’s lives to fit YOUR teachings and YOUR narrative.

    Shame on these men for putting this young lady, and now her vulnerable infant son in such jeopardy…..for what? To prove that your “preaching” is effective? Shame on you.

    Dee, if there is any way to get in touch with this girl and offer her financial support to get her son to safety please let us know.

    I have had my hair on fire since reading about this last night and have been begging the Lord to protect this little baby and prevent any future damage from being done to him.

  12. Beakerj wrote:

    Time to haul his sorry perverted arse back to prison, for his wife to get a divorce & stupid naïve idiots like Doug Wilson to wise up.

    +1

  13. Honestly, I’ve just about given up on this group of guys. Let’s hope that more people will become aware of the outcomes of their theology.

  14. I want to apologize for my “first!” comment. I don’t know what the heck I was thinking. This is not exciting, or time for games.

  15. This is truly a horrific situation and a work of satan. I pray that Doug Wilson will reap the destruction he has heaped on others

  16. @ Beakerj:
    Why do these evil (all right I said it) church leaders get over, and STILL get paid to pastor, lead ministries,etc!??! Huh? What ever happened to “judgement begins in the house of God”?

  17. To second a comment; when one recognizes, through the Grace of God, that you have a almost unbearable addiction to a certain behavior, part of the repentance process is the deliberate choice to abstain from activities and scenarios where temptation is readily available. If a repentant alcoholic came to Wilson’s church would they not be encouraged to quit their job as a sommelier???

    When I have counseled with men who struggle with different manner of sexual temptation I have always encouraged them to be like Joseph with Potiphars wife. Run from, don’t negotiate with. Temptation will always win out if you wallow in it long enough.

    We can, and should indeed, celebrate repentance. But we can never confuse the issue of repentance with a lifestyle of purposeful temptation. If I love my recovering alcoholic friend, is it not reasonable and honoring to not keep offering him sips of my beer.

    With that being said, the only “silver lining”(if there could even be) is that I read this statement as something he responded to instead of something he did. Meaning, he didn’t actively DO something to the child, but instead was aroused by contact with the child. Sadly, for those with extreme disorders, the simple and innocent tasks of fatherhood are clearly enough to be a problematic issue. Long story short, no children, not ever, not anywhere.

  18. This is a potential fate that Karen H. was spared from by being informed and getting the heck out of The Village Church.

  19. When will pastors get a brain? Ironically I spoke with a pastor last week – someone I had a nodding acquaintance with at CLC – and his take on the issues at CLC and elsewhere were very refreshing. May God bring more people like that into leadership!

  20. GovPappy wrote:

    This is a potential fate that Karen H.

    Good point.
    And this is the position these pastors and teachers put women into for the sake of their doctrine.

    Karen H. was wise standing up in the face of the church doctrine/discipline tsunami.
    Katie Sitler, not so much.

  21. Adam Borsay wrote:

    Long story short, no children, not ever, not anywhere.

    Why do the people surrounding Sitler NOT get this?

    It is like there is some drug in the water in Moscow, Idaho that has dulled the minds of one and all.

  22. GovPappy wrote:

    I want to apologize for my “first!” comment. I don’t know what the heck I was thinking. This is not exciting, or time for games.

    Not to worry, GovPappy…it’s become kind of a tradition here so it can be an automatic reflex. That was kind of you though to be so sensitive to the nature of the post.

  23. I’m going to try to be civil, but this will be very difficult. We have tried to warn numerous people about Doug Wilson since 2006-2007. And got absolutely nowhere. I’m talking about intelligent people with terminal degrees. Pastors. People who know the Bible. They simply do not care, and these people will defend him or excuse their pastor’s defense of him or other’s defenses of him (Piper and Jared Wilson) and the use of his materials on marriage and the church and Recon/Federal Vision. Wilson took in R.C. Jr. when he was defrocked! Yet none of these highly-educated people think there is any big deal here at all.

    Having had so much interaction with people surrounding Doug Wilson has helped us understand that the people at the “kirk” will not hold Wilson accountable because he is their idol. Piper and the Gospel Glitterati will never recant their support of him. They knew all about Wilson before they ever recommended him. They simply do not care, as hard as that has been for me to recognize. I think we are talking about willful deception.

  24. Gram3 wrote:

    They simply do not care,

    Or, they care about the wrong things.
    They don’t care about women and children.
    They care very much about their doctrine and positions of authority.
    They will willing sacrifice infants on the altars of their patriarchy.
    No different than the days of Molech.

  25. “Journalism is the protection between people and any sort of totalitarian rule. That’s why my hero, admittedly a flawed one, is a journalist.” – Andrew Vachss,
    an American crime fiction author, child protection consultant, and attorney exclusively representing children and youths

    http://www.vachss.com/mission/sick_vs_evil.html

    ***************************************************
    Kudos to Dee & Deb here at The Wartburg Watch, Julie Anne at Spiritual Sounding Board, Amy Smith at WatchKeep, and all of the others…who are true journalists.
    I’d nominate each of you for the highest honors we could award journalists.

  26. This child needs a guardian ad litem to represent HIS interests, not the interests of his father, the pedophile, his mother, his grandparents, Doug Wilson and the rest of the enablers over at Christ Church. And I’ll also include the judge and prosecutor in that mess. Seriously!

  27. Is the judge a member of Wilson’s church? If so, he should recuse himself from the case. If not, has anyone explained to the judge that church’s teaching on submission of women/wives? The baby may not be safe even if the mom gets more training.

  28. Mara wrote:

    Or, they care about the wrong things.

    Definitely, these people have erected idols, and Wilson is a fellow-worshipper. As long as you tick the necessary boxes of patriarchy and some kind of calvinism (he doesn’t teach classical Calvinism), then everything else is OK. It absolutely boggles the mind.

    I think that in many ways Wilson corresponds to Mahaney. No formal theological education, a cult of authority and personality, a proprietary system of religious franchises, and a theology of law, law, law.

  29. Gram3 wrote:

    I’m talking about intelligent people with terminal degrees.

    What is a “terminal degree”? I could take a wack at it, but I might get us off track 😉

  30. I believe this is what you get when you believe in magic instead of facts. Doug acted as if the reams of medical data we have on child predators didn’t matter, and that God would magically change this pervert, even though there isn’t one promise anywhere in the Bible to support that view. I don’t think I am being harsh or judgmental when I call this arrogant, foolish, naive, and unethical.

  31. There are no words except sick evil sorry words fail me.
    I pray that somehow common sense will prevail and the child is removed to safety

  32. Jonathan wrote:

    Jammin Wight and his story says a lot about Wilson too.

    For those unfamiliar with this situation, here’s a link to the victim’s writings about her abuse:
    http://natalierose-livewithpassion.blogspot.com/2014/07/standing-up-speaking-out.html

    I’m still waiting for authority figures in the church I grew up in to step forward and speak honestly about their decisions to defend my abuser and neglect my needs for love and support.

  33. Tears a stinging my eyes as I type, so excuse typos. Dee asks what sort of pastor would fix up a naïve young girl with a convicted pedophile. Nothing satisfies megalomaniacs like Wilson and his ilk like immediate submission. That’s all that matters to them. Submission. They twist the beauty of Christ’s submission into a tool to take advantage of their “flock”. They are not ignorant of what they are doing, they are fully aware of the power they wield and they darn well know they are twisting the truth.

  34. Bridget wrote:

    What is a “terminal degree”?

    What’s that saying in baseball, “Can’t tell the players without a scorecard?” In seminary or lingo, “terminal degree” is a doctorate — the highest degree that can be achieved in a particular discipline. There are several different kinds and there are some significant differences.

    Ph.D. (Doctor of Philosophy) and Th.D. (Doctor of Theology) are often described as “professional” or “academic” degrees. These tend to be far more theoretical and theological, and require the successful completion of an academic dissertation. Those with these kinds of degrees tend to teach in seminaries, write scholarly books and journal articles, and the like.

    D.Min. (Doctor of Ministry) is often described as a “practitioner” degree. [I’m not sure, but I think a D.Miss. (Doctor of Missions/Missiology) is in the same category.] These tend to be for more practical ministry-minded. For these, you don’t do an academic dissertation, you conduct an approved and supervised ministry project, usually in a local church, non-profit, or ministry organization — and you typically have to be involved in full-time ministry while you conduct the project. Following this, you complete a “project report.” Much of the report is written before the project gets approved. It outlines the what you want to do, why, the biblical and theological reasoning behind the activities, cultural adjustments you believe you may need to make, what unique or distinctive contribution it makes — sections on those such things. Afterward, you add sections on what happened, your analysis of it, etc. Those with practitioner degrees typically are in the churches, on the field, doing ministry as their primary form of service — and maybe sometimes teaching in seminaries or training programs.

    So … to paraphrase what Gram3 seems to be saying is, in this situation with Mr. Wilson, that people with scholarly academic teaching and/or practical ministry training simply do not have the discernment to see the consequences of his decisions and behaviors.

    To which I’d add, disciples who function by God’s Word and leading of the Holy Spirit often show far more practical discernment than have people with “terminal degrees.” (Of course, this tends to be an anabaptist or free-church approach to what it means to follow Jesus Christ, and therefore no big surprise that certain kinds of followers of closed-system authoritarian perfectionistic theologies/leaders oppose the idea and rarely mention both Word and Spirit.)

    I’m not against training — in fact, I’m writing curricula and working on systems for measuring qualitatively the constructive or destructive impact of organization/ministry efforts. But, to quote the first pastor I had after becoming a born-again Christian, “If we live by degrees, we die by degrees.”

  35. “Currently, there are several pieces out there on the web that display the depth of rebellion against God’s Order of Creation that has taken over the Reformed church today. Let’s start with two women who have gone to the internet to correct and rebuke a number of church officers including Pastors John Piper and Doug Wilson.”

  36. The sentence that stabbed me in the heart was the quote from Judge Stegner: “At this point in time, that means he would not be able to reside with his wife and child.”
    Did I read that right? (The cognofog is bad today.) Was the judge stating or implying that that would be a bad thing? Am I hearing concern for the perpetrator and none for the potential victim?
    Please tell me I misunderstood! If not, I believe that ‘naive’ is the wrong word to describe Judge Stegner.

  37. Patty in Massachusetts wrote:

    Latest post on Bayly Blog: blasting female bloggers who have criticized Piper and Wilson. I think this time Tim has REALLY lost it. (Note that he does not seem to be referencing the Sitler situation, just expressing general outrage that women would have the temerity to publicly criticize these pillars of the church.)

    Thanks for the link. I am not familiar with Tim Bayly, but read the article you posted and another one he wrote about former Gov. Sarah Palin (Alaska) just now in which he said, “My friend, Doug Wilson, pointed me to this summary of prevailing convictions among the Reformers….”

    Blind guides, all of them.

  38. What about expressing support for the child to the community newspaper, the Court, CPS, and whatever else public venue is available in that city?

    What about something similar what was done for Janet Mefford by folks here — on behalf of the baby? Some kind of news release from citizens concerned (actually outraged) about the welfare of the child?

    Anyone know about friend of the Court letters? Would that apply to this situation?

  39. Have the Deebs seen this news of a sexual assault of a child in a Raleigh church?

    http://abc11.com/968383/

    There is a link to a statement released immediately by the church alerting the public and assuring that they have involved the authorities and an arrest was made. They expressed great care concern for the victim. It was refreshing to see that the church took the right steps.

  40. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    and that God would magically change this pervert,

    He believes in the magic of God and/or the magic of marriage.

    Some of these guys actually think that marriage will heal a pedophile.
    They used to think it would heal homosexuality.
    Maybe they still do.

    (Pro-gay rights people don’t attack me. I’m not debating whether being gay is something that need healed. I’m just pointing out that they believe that and think that marriage will heal it. Because marriage is magical. Just like God.)

  41. @ Bridget:
    An M.D. and Ph.D./PhD. People who should really know better for a number of reasons. People we trust to have judgment about such matters.

  42. Leslie wrote:

    Where is Child Protective Services in all this?

    Excellent question. I hope someone who knows Idaho law can tell us how this works. It makes no sense.

  43. Patty in Massachusetts wrote:

    Latest post on Bayly Blog:

    *snipt*

    I posted there under my legal name. We’ll see if it stays up. I pulled no punches.

    Doug Wilson deserves all the opprobrium which can be heaped upon his head. He deliberately supported a pedophile in his marriage to a young woman in his church and now a baby has suffered the result of his father’s predictable actions.

  44. Jonathan wrote:

    Though not as depraved as Steven Sittler, Jammin Wight and his story says a lot about Wilson too. You might wanna look into that one aswell.

    I have been in contact with this survivor a while back. It’s a very sad story, too.

    Thinking of multiple cases of sex abuse and mishandling all in one church brings me back to SGM.

  45. Is “Get a rope” too harsh?

    I’m worried about the reliance on polygraphs, though. Without that, can they prove he did it?

  46. Great work Dee!

    The only tiny ray of hope I see is if Katie gets sent to the court-ordered non-church-affiliated training for dealing with a pedophile. Maybe she will get a glimmer of insight into how horribly and hopelessly wrong Wilson’s teachings are and how badly she was led into instead of out of the valley of the shadow of death by those who claim to be her protectors.

  47. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    So … to paraphrase what Gram3 seems to be saying is, in this situation with Mr. Wilson, that people with scholarly academic teaching and/or practical ministry training simply do not have the discernment to see the consequences of his decisions and behaviors.

    Thank you, yes that and they are more concerned about a few things that override other things which are much bigger. The people I’m talking about think that Wilson is doing God’s work because he takes on “the world” and does so in a way that some think is clever. Contemplating the Wilson aura brings on a Peretti flashback. Seriously. Have you ever been in personal conversations when someone you think you know becomes suddenly incoherent from your POV and you don’t know what to say because you cannot believe what they have just said? We’ve had those conversations with really intelligent people.

  48. @ Patty in Massachusetts:
    to go by D. G. Hart’s blogging habits at Old Life it seems that if the Baylys aren’t infuriated about something he’s written it’s almost like he’s not doing his job.

  49. Hi, I’m typically a lurker here because I usually feel like others have more insight into most of the topics. But I hope its OK if I have a couple of questions and bring up a suggestion for discussion.

    Does anyone know whether CPS is investigating and/or contemplating removing the baby? Hasn’t Sitler violated parole and will he be charged with the goal of sending him back to prison? If these answers aren’t known how do we find out?

    The reason I think its important to know these answers is because once there is a good understanding of what the potential actions could be, a Change.org petition could be started that demands the solution most likely to protect the baby and send Sitler to jail. For example, if the local DA decided to press the right charges it might require CPS to act, in addition to getting Sitler back in prison.

    This petition could be circulated to social and alternative media. This would draw a lot of public attention to the case from outside of that community. And it sounds very much like an insular community where there is likely to be a lot of political pressure and influence where there shouldn’t be, and the only way to change that is through a lot of unwanted, embarrassing publicity and pressure from the outside.

    It would also be a very good change to have the push for change coming from within a Christian community to address a problem within the Christian community, instead of having to eventually read about it in the media where yet another time the ‘bad apples’ are contaminating the rest of the barrel, and it appears to people outside the faith that the ‘good apples’ aren’t doing anything about it.

    What are your thoughts about looking into shining a bright spotlight on this problem?

  50. @ Patty in Massachusetts:
    He’s frothing over a piece that Rachel Miller of The Aquila Report and Valerie Hobbs wrote for Scot McKnight’s blog. They point out what Wilson really believes about marriage but which he tries to hide with clever language. Valerie Hobbs is the professor who wrote about her visit to the Presbytery meeting where a pastor was subjected to discipline for not making his wife report to church regularly. Being the subject of BaylyBile is a badge of honor, IMO.

  51. Corbin wrote:

    I highly doubt it. Do you know how much Tim hates “immodest” Women?

    Yeah, well, I think my picture is next to the definitions of “harridan” and “virago” in the dictionary. I think that would work for the kind of “immodest” the Baylys are considering.

    But seriously folks, did the child have a Guardian ad Litem? I really want to know.

  52. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    And thanks, also, to Tom Hansen, who continues to post documents pertaining to Sitler’s case.
    http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/
    A commenter on SSB posted a link where Tom says he will be adding documents from the current hearings to his collection.

    Wow! Thanks BTDT. This was really helpful. Reading the original plea agreement was hair-raising. Multiple victims in multiple jurisdictions. Another document confirms he’s got a Peeping Tom problem as well. I hope Hansen posts documents from the new hearings.

  53. @ Gram3:

    It seems to me that horrific consequences ensue *whenever* one is intellectually and morally committed to a system that requires “us” to win while “them” to lose, requires us to be right by showing others are wrong, that divides the “leaders” from the “laypeople” and vests all decision-making on the former and almost all of the consequence-enduring on the latter. Their systems are full of (apparently to them,) unassailable assumptions. Which is a huge problem of circular reasoning.

    “Assumptions are a transparent grid through which we view the universe, sometimes deluding ourselves that the grid is that universe.” ~ Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson, in Dune: The Butlerian Jihad

    What would it take to break through such calcified Calvinism — or other kind of authoritarian system?

  54. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Thanks for that explanation. I had never heard the phrase before. Doctorate I have heard of. When it comes to Christian ministry, I’m not against education at all. I have to admit, though, that it doesn’t produce wisdom not love.

  55. mirele wrote:

    I posted there under my legal name. We’ll see if it stays up. I pulled no punches.

    Mirele, you are awesome!

  56. @ Dr. Fundystan:

    Doug acted as if the reams of medical data we have on child predators didn’t matter

    He clearly doesn’t think the reams of medical data on HIV/AIDS matter either, so I’m not surprised.

  57. Gram3 wrote:

    Being the subject of BaylyBile is a badge of honor, IMO.

    Indeed. I refrain from posting because I knew Tim and his wife, MaryLee, back in the day (like, 30+ years ago). We have had them over to dinner. He was perfectly sane back then. Hard to fathom what could have happened.

  58. Mara wrote:

    those boys wouldn’t want to hear what the Apostle Paul has to say about guys like them.

    I’m thinking Paul might go after the “Creation Order” crowd like he did the “Circumcision” crowd. I could be wrong on that. But the way those guys worship Creation Order, the Circumcision crowd has nothing on them.

  59. I know a family who is into Wilson and his orbit 100%. Their firstborn son (of 11 kids total) went to NSA and appears to be becoming some kind of in-bubble darling boy of the establishment there. Meanwhile, back at home, one of their daughters became anorexic, their eldest daughter’s only meaningful interaction with the outside world is through Power Rangers fan fiction forums online, and another daughter (who got out after being emotionally abused for years) tried to kill herself three times in one weekend. The mother is emotionally abusive and controlling but is a completely different person in public, so the only reason I know any of this is because a friend is helping the estranged daughter. She told recently disclosed that they found out one of the boys from another family who babysat for them when they were children, raped his own sister. (Unfortunately I didn’t find out who this was. I know or know of a good number of the local Christian homeschool families, so there’s at least a fair chance I had at least heard this person’s name. Which is, obviously, creepy to me.)

    So Wilsonite culture appears to have successfully replicated itself. Sexually abused children, crime and perversion, shredded girls, and indoctrinated boys.

  60. @ Gram3:

    He’s frothing over a piece that Rachel Miller of The Aquila Report and Valerie Hobbs wrote for Scot McKnight’s blog.

    I really liked that piece. I guess I’m an evil feminist “harridan” and “virago” just like Mirele. 😉

  61. Hester wrote:

    He clearly doesn’t think the reams of medical data on HIV/AIDS matter either, so I’m not surprised.

    Science is seen as perfectly fine, even beautiful. Until it supposedly interferes with one of their doctrines. Then it’s Liberal, Humanistic, God-hating poison!

  62. I went and checked out the link to the facebook page for the Moscow-Pullman daily news, and went to the comment thread. There was a woman named Dotty Young who said this:

    “The same judge is the one who gave them permission to marry in the first place. He could be covering his own hide.”

  63. I think that as a group here that we need to constantly uplift this child in prayer. So I am calling for continual prayers for the safety of this child. I serve a God of miracles. One that will watch over this child. If you wake up in the middle of the night, pray for the child. The Bible tells us to pray unceasingly. We don’t have to be in the same room to pray for this child. So join with me this evening, and tomorrow morning and all through the day praying for the safety of this little innocent child.

  64. mirele wrote:

    Patty in Massachusetts wrote:
    Latest post on Bayly Blog:
    *snipt*
    I posted there under my legal name. We’ll see if it stays up. I pulled no punches.
    Doug Wilson deserves all the opprobrium which can be heaped upon his head. He deliberately supported a pedophile in his marriage to a young woman in his church and now a baby has suffered the result of his father’s predictable actions.

  65. http://dougwils.com/books/injustice-and-empathy.html

    Wilson supported Mahaney. I believe many of the celebrity “leaders” in the gospelly coalition who still to this day have not retracted their statements of support for Mahaney have similar incidents that have taken place in their churches. No evidence, purely conjecture on my part, but what else could explain their fierce loyalty to the world’s most humble man?

  66. mirele wrote:

    But seriously folks, did the child have a Guardian ad Litem? I really want to know.

    No. This was the first issue with Sitler since the child was born. But the whole thing stinks. It is not being handled for the welfare of the child at all.

  67. I’m not sure I understand the parts about chaperoning.

    Legally, does this entail the 1. chaperone (say the wife) having to sit in the same room as the husband and baby at all times?

    Or, 2. if he’s in the den with the baby, it is considered acceptable for her to be in the kitchen baking a casserole?

    If this happened under a 2. situation, I could see that happening. Maybe the wife didn’t know what was going on if she was not in the same room?

    (Not that I think the guy should be around babies at all, chaperones or not.)

  68. Hester wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    He’s frothing over a piece that Rachel Miller of The Aquila Report and Valerie Hobbs wrote for Scot McKnight’s blog.

    I put a link to the Rachel Miller/Valerie Hobbs article over on the Open Discussion Board for anyone who wants to read it.

  69. Zla’od wrote:

    Is “Get a rope” too harsh?
    I’m worried about the reliance on polygraphs, though. Without that, can they prove he did it?

    As am I. Polygraphs are notoriously unreliable–is that their only evidence that this happened?

  70. The original complaint included things like, forcing a two-year-old child to fellate him. (See friend-of-court letter). But the parole violation was for voyeurism–specifically, looking through a neighbor’s window with binoculars.

    A bit off-topic, but I was struck by Condition Four of the Idaho Dept. of Corrections Sexual Offender Agreement of Supervision, which prohibits “any deviant behaviors including but not limited to sado/masochism, bestiality, phone sex, cross dressing, clothing fetish, voyeurism, exhibitionism, public masturbation, or frottage.” It seems to me that this list mixes legal, and often rather normal, behavior with things that actually should be illegal. Does this strange legal framework come from them being in Idaho, or is it the Dept. of Correction’s way of making sure they have something to pin on everybody?

    http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/Report_of_Probation_Violation_061807_Page_1.jpg

  71. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    What would it take to break through such calcified Calvinism — or other kind of authoritarian system?

    I don’t think this is any kind of Calvinism, honestly. I think that this is a mutant strain of Rushoonyism which was itself a mutant strain of Van Tilism mixed with Kuyper. Those men were Calvinists, no doubt, but Wilson and the other Recon/Federal Visionists are another thing. It is a power religion and it is an elitist religion, and ISTM that is the religion of the world and pagan gods and goddesses. It is a toxic form of false Christianity to the extent that it does not resemble the humble servant, Jesus the Christ. As to what to do about it, I’m certainly not the one with those answers, as numerous encounters have proved.

  72. It looks like I was moderated out with my comment on the Bayly blog. I said upon reading it I thought it was satire, but then came to the eerie realization that it wasn’t .

    This guy scares me

  73. Here is the latest post I did…its about membership covenants, and how Neo-Calvinists view membership. There’s a new Cold War and a new Berlin Wall. As I paraphrase from Winston Churchill, “From Capital Hill Baptist in Washington, D.C. to Sovereign Grace in Louisville, an iron curtain has descended across Christendom.” Is Jonathan Leeman the Walter Ulbricht of the Neo-Calvinist movement? As a history nerd and guy steeped in history I had fun with this one!

    https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/09/05/neo-calvinist-membership-covenants-the-new-berlin-wall-amidst-a-theological-cold-war/

  74. Hester wrote:

    Also curious whether Piper will even address this, since (IIRC) he’s shared a platform with Wilson at least once.

    I would be entirely shocked to see any of them say a word about this. Piper invited Wilson to the Desiring God conference and, IIRC, also to one or more other Desiring God conferences. He claims Wilson gets the Gospel right, which makes me wonder if Piper has even read Wilson’s writing beyond his gender heresy. Wilson is certainly not Reformed, because he thinks that Reformed Is Not Enough.

  75. I see that many of you want to feel sorry for Katie. I can’t do that. She is an adult who chose to bring a child into this world. she is obligated by her God to protect that child from everyone who would bring harm, including his father.

    We have a case at trial right now on whether the mom or stepdad ‘accidentally’ beat the child to death. That also makes me sick.

    I’m an atheist and I do not understand what evil I could commit that is worse than so many of these “TRUE CHRISTIANS’.

  76. Hester wrote:

    I guess I’m an evil feminist “harridan” and “virago” just like Mirele.

    No doubt, along with rebellious usurping Jezebel. Somehow I don’t think the Bayly Boys are in Mirele’s league. Even with an assist from their Former Feminist.

  77. nmgirl wrote:

    I see that many of you want to feel sorry for Katie. I can’t do that. She is an adult who chose to bring a child into this world. she is obligated by her God to protect that child from everyone who would bring harm, including his father.

    I don’t feel sorry for Katie, and I agree with you totally that she has a responsibility as a mother as well as a servant of God to protect her child from Sitler and anyone else who poses a threat. Some of us who have seen this twisted non-Christianity from an insider view can understand how a young woman raised in that culture could have a totally warped view of almost everything. That doesn’t excuse any possible negligence toward her child or complicity in harm because, as you said, she is an adult who is responsible.

    Apologies for not remembering what you do, but if you are involved in protecting children, thank you very much for caring for the little ones.

  78. Is the judge a member of Wilson’s church? Is the defense lawyer? Do they belong to the same club? Just wondering.

  79. @ Zla’od:

    Some of those actions can be used to lure children, spy on children. Men in my city have been arrested at baseball parks while mastrubating as they watched children play. There are reasons why those actions are on the list.

  80. nmgirl wrote:

    I see that many of you want to feel sorry for Katie. I can’t do that.

    I only do because I understand the cult-like environment she was raised in. Women lose all independent thought. Male leaders may not say this explicitly, but it is acted out implicitly that women are saved through their husbands. What I see is an adult woman who still has the mind of a child, who will obey the men she believes are in authority over her. Remember, it is the men who are supposed to explain Scripture to her, not her own mind. She doesn’t have one. She lost it. And in that light, you can see why she is not going to tell authorities about her husband’s deviant ways. She would look at that as disrespecting him. This is a messed-up system and I’ve gotten madder and madder as I’ve learned and understood how women have been victimized, objectified, depersonalized in “Christian” Patriarchy systems.

  81. Zla’od wrote:

    Does this strange legal framework come from them being in Idaho, or is it the Dept. of Correction’s way of making sure they have something to pin on everybody?

    I think it’s similar to how they will also prohibit offenders from drinking alcohol which is normally legal. I know this to be true in the State of Washington, too.

  82. I’ve been tracking so many other New Calvinists and their messes; Wilson has not been on my radar screen. But I’ve read enough on this piece to make me sick. Christ Church?! This is not Christ’s church!

  83. Julie Anne wrote:

    What I see is an adult woman who still has the mind of a child, who will obey the men she believes are in authority over her.

    I concur with Julie Anne about Katie. These women are effectively brain washed in this system and they are told to *obey*. If they show any signs of independent thinking they are usually threatened for not obeying.

    I was ordered by my NeoCal church’s pastors/elders (California) to be excommunicated and shunned by some 200 church members this past year. I had stood my ground with them over their friend, a convicted Megan’s List sex offender they gave church membership to, and didn’t tell all adults. They gave him access to all church activities and children.

    The pastors/elders told me that I was *destined for Hell* and called me at home and told me that I was to *never contact law enforcement again* about this sex offender and that I was *to obey* my elders and *to submit to their authority*.

  84. Okay Bridgit, Julie Anne…explain to me, then, what compelling interest the state has in preventing former offenders from engaging in BDSM, phone sex, cross-dressing (defined how?), “clothing fetish” (would this include Victoria’s Secret?), or frottage (i.e., “dry-humping,” which some of us may recall from our teen years) with consenting adult partners? I have no problem with the bans on bestiality, voyeurism, exhibitionism, and public masturbation, though I wonder what any of them have to do with child molesting, and worry at the open-ended ban on “other” forms of “deviant” behavior.

  85. Before I read all the comments, I suggest those of you here at TWW go over to Wilson’s blog: Blog and Mablog, and tell them the phony religious gig is up.

  86. Doug Wilson must be a Calvinist – he’s totally depraved and smug enough that it wouldn’t surprise me if he set up a matchmaking service for pedophiles.

    All of these sicko’s claiming to be ministers makes me think of a cartoon by nakedpastor where a man is praying, saying “Dear God…like…WTF???!!!”

  87. If I learned that my grandchild had been molested by my son, I would take some friends and we would remove his ability to father any other children! I suspect that my SILs father would do the same to his son, and I would be along to help.

    The judge should be impeached. The pastor should be imprisoned for misprision of a felony and abetting the molestation of children. The probation of the pedophile should be revoked. And the church should be disbanded, its property liquidated and the money put aside for the child.

    And none of those punishments is enough. Wilson needs professional psychiatric care in a secure facility without means of egress for the mentally ill.

  88. @ Zla’od:

    I don’t have time at the moment to look up Idaho’s code for sex offenders and post it for you.

    But I will answer your one question about why phone sex would be on the *no* list for sex offenders…because they can lure other people using electronic devices and prey upon them.

  89. Max wrote:

    I’ve been tracking so many other New Calvinists and their messes; Wilson has not been on my radar screen. But I’ve read enough on this piece to make me sick. Christ Church?! This is not Christ’s church!

    Wilson isn’t a New Calvinist. He is not any kind of Calvinist, IMO. What he does is use Calvinistic language but gives the concepts of classical Calvinism a new meaning. Where have we seen that act before? Many Reformed are appalled by Wilson, as Wenatchee pointed out upthread WRT the Baylys. Search on Federal Vision and Reconstructionism and check out the papers at Chalcedon Foundation. These guys would like to do to the classical Reformed denominations what Founders has done to the SBC. In some cases, they have been successful, IMO.

  90. Gram3 wrote:

    Piper invited Wilson to the Desiring God conference and, IIRC, also to one or more other Desiring God conferences. He claims Wilson gets the Gospel right, which makes me wonder if Piper has even read Wilson’s writing beyond his gender heres

    More and more people inside Christendom and without, want nothing to do with their ‘gospel’ (small g intentional).

  91. Daisy wrote:

    I’m not sure I understand the parts about chaperoning.

    Legally, does this entail the 1. chaperone (say the wife) having to sit in the same room as the husband and baby at all times?

    Or, 2. if he’s in the den with the baby, it is considered acceptable for her to be in the kitchen baking a casserole?

    Chaperoning requires requires having Sitler and the baby in her line of sight, so no to number 2 if she cannot see them in the den.

  92. Muff Potter wrote:

    More and more people inside Christendom and without, want nothing to do with their ‘gospel’ (small g intentional).

    What should be done about that? I honestly do not know the answer, and that is not for lack of thinking about it. It is so frustrating to see the wreckage that is pointless and totally predictable and which shames the name of Jesus.

  93. I am wondering about the judges connections to Doug Wilson. If he has connections and has not excused himself in these situation than I wonder if he can be disbarred or removed. If he’s giving favorable decisions to Doug Wilson based off a friendship then I wonder if he can be impeached, or disbarred. Where is Tim Fall when you need him! 🙂

  94. Ladies,
    Study and think about how Jesus listened and talked with women in the Bible. He certainly was not like these cult leaders.

    Also how he was with children and what he said about those who would cause these little ones to stumble.

    Even the women (e.g. Rahab) in the Old Testament didn’t have to be like the Christian Taliban and these false leaders and teachers are demanding that they be.

    The time has come for us to be more outspoken about the wrongness of the abuse of women and children in the church.

    WWJD

  95. NJ wrote:

    Well Mirele, it looks like Kamilla has taken it upon herself rebuke you…

    *shrug* I was very clear regarding how I felt about Doug Wilson: “Chide me all you want, my dear, but Doug Wilson is a person people should run away from, not emulate.”

    On this I feel absolutely no guilt. Doug Wilson and his followers need to be confronted.

  96. Zla’od wrote:

    Okay Bridgit, Julie Anne…explain to me, then, what compelling interest the state has in preventing former offenders from engaging in BDSM, phone sex, cross-dressing (defined how?), “clothing fetish” (would this include Victoria’s Secret?), or frottage (i.e., “dry-humping,” which some of us may recall from our teen years) with consenting adult partners?

    I can’t answer re the other behaviors but if I were involved in his probation, I would not want to risk having him combine his sexual interest in children with an interest in hurting his partners as a result of his engaging in consensual BDSM.

  97. I recall from reading about the case a long time ago that the judge was uncomfortable and unhappy about the possible marriage, recognizing the potential risk to children produced from the union. However, he felt it was beyond his authority to disallow this man from marrying, since not every marriage produces children and criminals of all sorts of stripes have the constitutional right to marry. With regard to children and protection, you cross that bridge if you have to.

    It is sad that the secular realm had it correct in it’s concern over any possible children. Yet, someone who proclaims Christ encouraged this disaster. The “heathens” knew better when it came to concerns about protecting women and children, but couldn’t stop it.

  98. Eagle wrote:

    I am wondering about the judges connections to Doug Wilson. If he has connections and has not excused himself in these situation than I wonder if he can be disbarred or removed. If he’s giving favorable decisions to Doug Wilson based off a friendship then I wonder if he can be impeached, or disbarred. Where is Tim Fall when you need him!

    Hi Eagle,

    A woman named Rose, who lives in the Moscow, Idaho, community and knows a lot about this case has been posting over at Julie Anne’s Spiritual Sounding Board on this story, which J.A. is also covering. Rose is no defender of Wilson’s.

    But she did say this about the judge:
    “The judge is John Stegner. He has absolutely no connection to Christ Church. He has a stellar reputation. I know him and respect him. One of the difficulties, from my perspective, is that as much as I wish he could be proactive in this kind of case the law prevents it. Thoughts and feelings are not prosecutable – actions are. So far, Steven Sitler has only admitted to thoughts and feelings. I can’t imagine how anyone will catch him in the act. Steven’s conditions of probation are being currently evaluated. I haven’t seen the new list – I hope to early next week. One point that most people are not aware of is how smart Steven is. He is currently earning a PhD in Chemical Engineering! They don’t grow on trees. He presents as charming, sincere, engaging,”
    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/09/04/pastor-doug-wilson-a-serial-pedophile-and-the-real-victims/#comments

  99. Bridget wrote:

    What is the judge in this case thinking?

    Why did the state allow Sitler to be married in the first place?

    Why hasn’t the state removed the child from the home?

    Why isn’t the judge(s) listening to the parole and correction officers about the danger Sitler poses?

    Why would the judge trust anyone at the this church to be a chaperone when they all seem to be okay with Sitler marrying Katie?

    Why isn’t Sicker still in jail to begin with?

    How did a life sentence get reduced to one year, a wife, and now a child for possible abuse?

    Is the judge a member of the Kirk?

    Boz Tchvivian(sp?) has said in his career as a child sex crimes prosecutor, he had NEVER seen a church support the victim, ALWAYS the pedo.

  100. Julie Anne wrote:

    What I see is an adult woman who still has the mind of a child, who will obey the men she believes are in authority over her. Remember, it is the men who are supposed to explain Scripture to her, not her own mind. She doesn’t have one. She lost it. And in that light, you can see why she is not going to tell authorities about her husband’s deviant ways. She would look at that as disrespecting him.

    “The man Penetrates! Colonizes! Conquers! Plants!
    The woman lies back and Accepts!”
    — Doug Wilson, ManaGAWD

  101. Hester wrote:

    I know a family who is into Wilson and his orbit 100%. Their firstborn son (of 11 kids total) went to NSA and appears to be becoming some kind of in-bubble darling boy of the establishment there.

    Including fedora and cigars just like Wilson?

  102. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    What would it take to break through such calcified Calvinism — or other kind of authoritarian system?

    Nothing.

    The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs, and Won’t be Taken In.

  103. Mara wrote:

    Some of these guys actually think that marriage will heal a pedophile.
    They used to think it would heal homosexuality.
    Maybe they still do.

    Yeah, and sex with a virgin would cure Syphilis. (Or AIDS.)

  104. Lori wrote:

    Dee asks what sort of pastor would fix up a naïve young girl with a convicted pedophile. Nothing satisfies megalomaniacs like Wilson and his ilk like immediate submission. That’s all that matters to them. Submission.

    Just like Calvin did in Geneva.
    They are just imitating their REAL God.

  105. I noticed what he believed about AIDs from Peter Duesberg’s book Inventing the AIDS Virus. I have noticed that several leaders are distorting that book’s finding. Duesberg book was written at a time when cancer was getting less funding than AIDs was and he thought there was more to it than just HIV alone. He does not state HIV is not serious but he was seeing Immune deficiencies were complicated as reports of drug use and HIV were creating AIDs several times over the population of those with just HIV. You can’t use that book to deny HIV’s danger. It’s a distortion of Duesberg’s findings.

  106. For what its worth, I am sorry this happened to this young child I really am. It has been years since I have really cried, something I learned as a Christian is disgusting and basically demonic, next to the public expression of grief it is vile. It took me years to get past all that nonsense. I wept for this child that I do not know at the pain and sorrow and fear. You are correct it has to stop, it really does.

  107. Zla’od wrote:

    Okay Bridgit, Julie Anne…explain to me, then, what compelling interest the state has in preventing former offenders from engaging in BDSM, phone sex, cross-dressing (defined how?), “clothing fetish” (would this include Victoria’s Secret?), or frottage (i.e., “dry-humping,” which some of us may recall from our teen years) with consenting adult partners?

    I’m just “typing/thinking” outloud here, but I think you can have the same questioning with the alcohol restriction they have in place. Alcohol is legal for adults, but too much of it can get you into trouble. They could have put a limit on it, but they didn’t – they placed an entire ban on alcohol, probably because of the slippery slope effect.

    They aren’t ruling out sex entirely, but limiting it to adult consensual (with no extra frills). I think there is a slippery slope with sex, too, especially when going outside the bounds of conventional sex, so my guess is they put restrictions on sex, knowing that sex is a normal part of our life. I think the restrictions are there so it won’t go beyond normal. Again, this is just my guess. I’d love to hear from others on this.

  108. Julie Ann,
    Just read your blog on this topic. Thanks to you for covering it so well. I hope you, Deebs, and others will keep putting the truth about these creeps out there. Maybe one day people will start thinking for themselves and stop enabling them.

    In the meantime, do you have any ideas on how this insanity can be stopped?

    Keep up the great work!

  109. St.Thomas wrote:

    Lets face the truth, sexual sin and all types of perversions are an epidemic in the Body of Christ

    In a culture where sex is held up as a highly prized reward, it’s no wonder it is also used as a tool to control and to terrorize. And that’s just the human aspect. Now add Christian purity culture and leadership obsession to the mix. Yes we are all human, yes we all make mistakes, etc, etc. But this purity and leadership obsession within the church is a toxic mix and the mix master is Satan himself. Only when we submit to Christ first, not pastors, elders, husbands, to the gospel, to the KJV, or the ESV, or a host of other pseudo-leaders will we see a difference (speaking as awoman, we have a ginormous hierarchy of man made leader models placed above us in the church). My stomach turns as I think about how oppressed Katie has been in this marriage. How she probably was so terroized and dominated by Sitler’s “leadership” and that of her father and Wilson, that she didn’t even know how to stop him from harming their baby.

  110. NJ wrote:

    I went and checked out the link to the facebook page for the Moscow-Pullman daily news, and went to the comment thread. There was a woman named Dotty Young who said this:
    “The same judge is the one who gave them permission to marry in the first place. He could be covering his own hide.”

    Sad, sad, sad. This judge needs to be investigated.

  111. Daisy wrote:

    Legally, does this entail the 1. chaperone (say the wife) having to sit in the same room as the husband and baby at all times?
    Or, 2. if he’s in the den with the baby, it is considered acceptable for her to be in the kitchen baking a casserole?

    “Line of sight” chaperone means that another adult has to be able to see the baby at all times.

  112. Gram3 wrote:

    Piper and the Gospel Glitterati will never recant their support of him. They knew all about Wilson before they ever recommended him. They simply do not care, as hard as that has been for me to recognize. I think we are talking about willful deception.

    Do you mean deception on the part of Piper et al?

    I respect your view, but I wonder if Piper and co. may be willingly letting themselves be deceived about Wilson, i.e. burying their heads in the sand. Perhaps they downplay Wilson’s excesses in their minds (he can’t be that bad, his theology is sound at its core, he’s got critics but all good gospel preachers do…etc). I also think these guys ignore most of the criticism circling around other Reformed leaders because they think the critics aren’t worth listening to. Only the Reformed gurus are.

  113. XianJaneway wrote:

    As am I. Polygraphs are notoriously unreliable–is that their only evidence that this happened?

    First, polygraphs are not unreliable. Modeled on a standard distribution they present as a highly leptokurtic curve skewed slightly positive (more false positives than false negatives). The articles are unclear what role the polygraph is playing; however, it seems unlikely that it is being used to determine any kind of evidence, since it is not admissible in court. Maybe LawProf can weigh in with his best guess.

  114. nmgirl wrote:

    I see that many of you want to feel sorry for Katie. I can’t do that. She is an adult who chose to bring a child into this world. she is obligated by her God to protect that child from everyone who would bring harm, including his father.

    I understand your feelings; however, having experienced some of these cult-like religions first hand, I also understand that Katie may have been systematically brainwashed since her childhood. Why else would she marry a pedophile in the first place? I admit that I am also unable to dredge up much sympathy for her, but she is likely also a victim to a large extent.

  115. @ Casey:

    That may or may not be the case (haven’t read the book), but IIRC Wilson recommended women have unprotected sex with their HIV-positive husbands, so he is denying the danger of HIV.

  116. Gram3 wrote:

    No formal theological education, a cult of authority and personality, a proprietary system of religious franchises, and a theology of law, law, law.

    The lack of formal education really comes through when you read Wilson’s books that are attempting to be academic. They are so bad it’s almost funny. I had the misfortune of being asked to review a book by Wilson and his sidekick Douglas Jones for a Christian conference. It was called ‘Angels in the Architecture’ and purported to be a study of medieval Christianity and a call to for the Christian church to return to the majesty and glory of medieval Europe. Having studied this period of history at university, I could pick holes in almost every sentence. It was illogical, badly written, badly organised, not referenced or scholarly in any way, and historically it was absolute nonsense. I started to make notes about what was wrong with the history, the logic, and the theology but in the end gave up as it would have taken too long.

    I refused to review it as I regarded it as total rubbish. The conference organiser who wanted it recommended from the front was extremely miffed and I remember him saying that the intelligent people of his community in Idaho would have understood and appreciated it. That young man is now the assistant pastor of a church in England.

    You are right that it is a cult, pure and simple

  117. Deb wrote:

    Absolutely. Karen was gifted with discernment, and she exercised it remarkably well.

    And I pray that Christians seek discernment before leadership. There are way too many leaders and I am sick of hearing that God needs to raise up more leaders! We need to plug ourselves into the Word and fellowship with God Himself, ask for wisdom and discernment and let Him work through us. I know, sounds positively heretical doesn’t it? No worries, I have already been branded a heretic, I can take it. Sort of sends a thrill up my spine…

  118. May wrote:

    The lack of formal education really comes through when you read Wilson’s books that are attempting to be academic.

    This. Totally this. And not limited to Wilson. I am so sick of the smarmy fake-intelligent facade erected to protect the reader from the grime and hard work of actual research and logical analysis. On can be a clever rhetoritician without being a sound thinker.

  119. This news story dates back to June 14, 2006!!! (sorry for the lengthy quote)

    http://newwest.net/main/article/two_child_molestation_scandals_break_over_moscows_christ_church/

    Sitler is a serial child molester. He admits to having sexually abused children ranging in age from 2 to 12 across three states: Virginia, Washington, and Idaho. Sitler attended New St. Andrews College for eighteen months, during which time he boarded with a Christ Church family. New St. Andrews students are encouraged to board in local Christian homes. In practice, this means that seventeen or eighteen Christ Church families run unlicensed boarding houses within the City of Moscow. This is a separate but serious legal issue, and one I have written about before.

    On July 6, 2005, Steven James Sitler was arrested. For his defense attorney Sitler retained Dean Wullenwaber, who has acted in the past as legal counsel for New St. Andrews.

    In April of 2005, two months before Sitler’s arrest, Sitler’s home church in Colville, Washington, Emmanuel Presbyterian Church, informed its congregation of Sitler’s offenses. The Colville church’s pastor and elders then offered counseling and support to Sitler’s victims and their families.

    Doug Wilson did not inform the rank and file of Christ Church. He claims on his blog that he notified a meeting of the Christ Church Heads of Households in November or December of 2005, some eight or nine months after Sitler’s confession, but some in attendance seem to remember this and others don’t. Wilson asserts that he acted with perfect pastoral concern and propriety, but other blogs have taken Wilson and his timeline of events to task. What is clear is that Wilson did not inform Christ Church members of the exact nature of Sitler’s offenses until eight months after Wilson himself learned of the problem.

    On August 19th, 2005, three or four months before notifying his parishioners of Sitler’s crimes, Doug Wilson wrote a letter on Christ Church letterhead to Judge John Stegner. In that letter, Wilson requested leniency for Steven Sitler (emphasis mine), writing:

    “I would urge that the civil penalties applied would be measured and limited. I have a good hope that Steven has genuinely repented, and that he will continue to deal with this to become a productive and contributing member of society.”

    Steven Sitler is sitting right now in the Latah County Jail, serving a one-year sentence. Twice a week, Sitler drives himself, unsupervised, to his court-ordered therapy in Clarkston and Pullman. For 18 months, Sitler was a member of the Moscow community. He was a student in good standing at New St. Andrews College. He was not then and is not now a registered sex offender: his face won’t appear on websites like Watchdog until he’s released back into the community — a community Doug Wilson seems to believe should welcome the return of Steven Sitler not as a criminal; not as a serial pedophile; not as a dangerous man, but as a repentant sinner.

    I am sickened by this. Jude John Stegner has known about Stiler for at least nine years, and he was just re-elected to another term in 2014.

  120. The D.Min is a joke. Pastors get it so they can be called “doctor.” Nothing could be funnier. Theological education is a fraud.

  121. @ Lori:
    Leader(s) / leadership, has become the mantra of church organizations. ” Have you found your leadership position?”, “we must raise up leaders in the Church”, our children must become leaders for Christ.” That’s all we heard in our former church. And, if you weren’t on a leadership * team * you were suspiciously viewed as being rebellious, carnal. The real story was the pastor and his handpicked elders, wanted members to do whatever the pastor directed.

  122. @ May:
    It’s ok to produce rubbish as long as it looks intelligent to the local target audience in the Bubble?

    Dang. I’m in the wrong bidness.

  123. @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
    I do sympathize with her. I know how being brainwashed as a child feels. I know what it means to wake up and realize half of what you were taught is crap, and now you have to sift through it all to find the truth and errors. I have compassion on her for similar reasons that I have some compassion for Josh Duggar (albeit a lot less because of his hypocrisy, and the fact that as a man he does have authority to make a choice in that community, and he made his choices) – when you’re raised like that, you don’t even know what you don’t know. You often don’t know that there’s an option to be different than what you are. Your reality is so limited. Coupled with the reality of spiritual authority to follow, your choices are almost determined for you. And that’s my experience as a man coming out of a culture similar – I truly feel for the women.

    That’s why it’s such a miracle to me that some of us are out of that culture, and still clinging to our faith.

  124. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    “Line of sight” chaperone means that another adult has to be able to see the baby at all times.

    Don’t you think Katie would question WHY this was necessary to protect her child? Or is she so out of touch with reality that she thinks this is normal?

  125. @ May:
    I was unclear. By willful deception I meant just what you described so well. They don’t see because either they do not want to see for whatever reason or because they are so focused on one or two things (patriarchy and “calvinism”) that they cannot see how he is totally outside of any reasonable Gospel boundary. The Gospel Glitterati had/have a leadership test which they have so far failed.

  126. May wrote:

    a call to for the Christian church to return to the majesty and glory of medieval Europe. Having studied this period of history at university, I could pick holes in almost every sentence. It was illogical, badly written, badly organised, not referenced or scholarly in any way, and historically it was absolute nonsense. I started to make notes about what was wrong with the history, the logic, and the theology but in the end gave up as it would have taken too long.

    That’s how I feel about Piper and Grudem and the rest of the CBMW gurus. As you learned, bringing logic and reasoning and pointing out factual errors doesn’t get you anyplace good with people who are indoctrinated to reject information from outside the system. Wilson has other sidekicks, too, like Peter Leithart of the PCA which failed to discipline him. Or James Jordan. Or Steve Wilkins. Or any number of others from the remnants of the Recons. Wilson’s ideas came from others, and he packaged them and markets them to people who fancy themselves to be intellectuals.

  127. @ Gram3:

    You’re right, Gram3. It isn’t just any kind of Calvinism, but sure does seem “calcified” and is definitely corrosive.

    I spent, oh, about 10 years or so circling around Van Til, Rushdoony, Kuyper, Schaeffer, Warfield, Dooyeweerd, and the like, trying to figure out what I believed in relation to them. Some good points therein from these authors, many not so good, and then seeing how rigid and punitive and, well, I.Q.-absorbed (idolizing?) so many of the originators and followers were helped reset my course. [Finally decided to figure out what I believed in relation to reading my Bible a lot, instead of reading theologians quite so much.] [That helped. A lot!]

    Actually, a good way to see what a new ideology or other kind of transformative movement is really about is to check out what the next generation does with it … especially those who take it to what the originators might consider to be an extreme. But, that’s the “espresso” of what’s in the system, and if the system is off course, a few generations later can end up *way* off course. And this espresso leaves an aftertaste that’s beyond burnt to ashes …

  128. nmgirl wrote:

    Or is she so out of touch with reality that she thinks this is normal?

    I believe that may account for what otherwise seems utterly unbelievable. An adult would be expected to act like an adult, but female children are indoctrinated to believe that they must have at least two male authority figures over them or else they are rebelling against God’s Order. Those male authorities are their father or husband and their pastor. The comments from Rose at SSB were enlightening for me in this particular situation, but I must say I’ve seen very intelligent people taken in by this ideology.

  129. I followed a TWW link to the Sitler story yesterday and spent the rest of the day researching Doug Wilson. I think there are two sites which summarize this man fairly well. The first is here:

    http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/the-critique-of-the-bluestockings.html
    This recent post is written with a condescending hubris that typifies his blogging, especially as he attempts to minimize women. But I found the really interesting details at the end of this post where he brags about his two daughters being accomplished writers. One daughter has authored two books (which he has linked) but Doug fails to mention that they were published by Canon Press, a publishing house founded by…Doug Wilson, her father. He further brags that his other daughter has authored a “ten volume series on British literature” which I found to be impressive until I followed the link and learned that it is a modest set of books which is part of a home school curriculum, and published by..you guessed it, Dad. Further study revealed that the majority of faculty of NSA and his other ventures are alumni of NSA. It truly is a tight bubble, one which would certainly foster a culture of loyalty and self-preservation.

    The second site is authored by a former professor of Doug’s at the University of Idaho: http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/WilsonEmpire.htm

    Sorry for the length of this comment. Thanks for covering this story.

  130. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I.Q.-absorbed (idolizing?) so many of the originators and followers were helped reset my course. [Finally decided to figure out what I believed in relation to reading my Bible a lot, instead of reading theologians quite so much.] [That helped. A lot!]

    IQ-absorbed is a good way of putting it. They put way too much confidence in their flesh and its ability to understand everything. I’m sure you read Bahnsen and North and probably Leithart and the others. The people in their circles idolize those men every bit as much as the YRR fanboys idolize their “heroes of the faith.” In both I’ve observed the “us against the world” remnant theology thinking that effectively bars any corrective input. I think that calcified is a good way of putting it along with petrified and vulcanized.

  131. Gram3 wrote:

    Wilson isn’t a New Calvinist. He is not any kind of Calvinist, IMO. What he does is use Calvinistic language but gives the concepts of classical Calvinism a new meaning.

    Thanks Gram3. There are so many threads of “another gospel” out there, it’s getting tough keeping up with them all! I figured since Wilson was buds with Piper that they were two peas in a pod. It’s not surprising that Wilson would be trying to come with a “new meaning” for his theology. These guys are always trying to out-do each other with something new … and they have a mob of 20s-40s waiting to fall for it. Piper keeps coming up with creative Piper Points and Driscoll Drivel will hit cyberspace again after he reinvents himself as a Charismatic Calvinist … or whatever church-shattering thing he can come up with to get new book revenue flowing. These followers of “another gospel” remind me more of the Athenians in Acts 17, than Christians; Scripture records that they “had an obsession for any novelty and would spend their whole time talking about or listening to anything new.” The New Calvinist movement, in its multiple manifestations, is more about philosophy and intellectual pursuit than a personal encounter with Christ.

  132. @ Janet Varin:
    Hi Janet
    Your comments and emails have been very helpful to me. Doug Wilson is a man who thinks he is smarter than everyone else and he will make sure to tell you that if you attempt to engage him.

    I have had the pleasure of talking with Rose Huskey, who does an incredible job of being Wilson’s thorn in his side. Moscow, a town of about 23,000 and is highly influenced by Wilson and his pack who man the stores and services. There are other evangelical churches in town but they keep silence, perhaps fearing to be in the crosshairs of Wilson.

    Things are slowly changing as more and more people get fed up. I will keep TWW readers informed on some plans in the work as soon as they are available to be publicized.

    It is important for everyone to know that most people in Moscow know about the problems with Sitler. The only ones who don’t seem to think it is a problem is Wilson and friends. I doubt he will be too concerned about the molestation of the baby. His precious program and pseudo intellectualism are far more important.

    I am praying that he will have a moment of shame for his participation and encouragement of this situation.

  133. I don’t understand this.

    There are situations where a newborn child is deemed to be in such danger from his/her parents that he/she is taken from the custody of the parents while still in hospital. In fact, there are some cases where the woman is told she is going to lose her child after it is born. (For example, Diane Downs, of the “Small Sacrifices” murders, briefly escaped from prison, got pregnant and her child was taken from her at birth and adopted.)

    So here we have this case, where a baby has been the subject of his father’s sexual stimulation. (*gack* I hated typing that.) Why oh why is this child still in the custody of his mother? Why has this child not been removed? Is it because the father is a glib, charming Ph.D candidate? Is it because Christ Church is something of a power in Moscow, Idaho? What is it? Why is this child being left in this situation, where his mother is not even competent to be a guardian (at this point) to protect her own son? Where is Child Protective Services?

  134. @ mirele:
    I am wondering if I should make some calls to the authorities in Moscow and ask a few questions. I am suspicious about the judge due to his strange decision. I am also thinking about sending this on to a coupe of media folks.

  135. dee wrote:

    Kamilla Ludwig recently?

    If mirele is engaging Kamilla Ludwig I hope she has a strong stomach and logical marry-go-rounds don’t make her sick.

  136. Gram3 wrote:

    ’ve seen very intelligent people taken in by this ideology.

    I will never forget discussing Mormonism with a highly intelligent scientific sort. I told him that Brigham Young said there are people that look like the Amish living on the moon. The answer from a BYU professor was “Well, we haven’t explored every bit of the moon yet. He refused to budge.

    Faith is faith and somehow all of us have need of it. Always liked these Dylan lyrics

    You may be an ambassador to England or France
    You may like to gamble, you might like to dance
    You may be the heavyweight champion of the world
    You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls.

    But you’re gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
    You’re gonna have to serve somebody,
    It may be the devil or it may be the Lord
    But you’re gonna have to serve somebody.

  137. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    then seeing how rigid and punitive and, well, I.Q.-absorbed (idolizing?) so many of the originators and followers were helped reset my course

    Great comment, Brad.

  138. dee wrote:

    Brigham Young said there are people that look like the Amish living on the moon. The answer from a BYU professor was “Well, we haven’t explored every bit of the moon yet.

    Yikes! And I thought I’ve had some weird encounters…

  139. @ Nicholas:
    Thank you as well. Doug Wilson let his pride in his own intellect get in the way of caring about children. I intend to keep my eye on him much more closely.

  140. Gram3 wrote:

    That’s how I feel about Piper and Grudem and the rest of the CBMW gurus. As you learned, bringing logic and reasoning and pointing out factual errors doesn’t get you anyplace good

    Not knowing this bunch and stumbling on Driscoll, I was also shocked at how error ridden his doctrine was. I was equally shocked at how the little Drisconians defended him and his doctrine in the face the devastating evidence against them.

  141. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Actually, a good way to see what a new ideology or other kind of transformative movement is really about is to check out what the next generation does with it … especially those who take it to what the originators might consider to be an extreme. But, that’s the “espresso” of what’s in the system, and if the system is off course, a few generations later can end up *way* off course. And this espresso leaves an aftertaste that’s beyond burnt to ashes …

    OMG. I’m tagging my own comment. Is that like, a blog-selfie?

    Anyway, sometimes I feel like Forrest Gump — like somebody wrote me into a script as the “roving human camera” where I observe a string of things that end up making history.

    Why I quoted my earlier comment: Beside having delved deeply into all the pre-YRR/Calvinista-like idolization theology of Reconstructionism, I was also a resident of Pullman Washington-Moscow Idaho area for about 15 years in the 1970s and ’80s. So I was on-site, seeing and experiencing first-hand how several competing cultish leaders were messing over many people who just sincerely wanted to follow Christ but ended up in the orbits of these men instead.

    The most fascinating bit of information about some of the other evangelicals in the area at that time came from a older gentleman who was a leader in one of the not-so-hipster churches in town. He told me that their church had turned into a sort of spiritual hospital for the steady flow of casualties from those other harmful ministries (which taught one-naturism, perfectionism, legalism, and lot of other toxicisms).

    And Douglas Wilson was a main leader in one of those toxic churches and campus ministries. So, that’s the context for my statement about seeing what a movement really is about by assessing what’s happening a couple generations later. So, here we are, 30 years later, and there is still a trail of victims in need of a spiritual hospital in Pullman/Moscow …

  142. dee wrote:

    I have had the pleasure of talking with Rose Huskey, who does an incredible job of being Wilson’s thorn in his side. Moscow, a town of about 23,000 and is highly influenced by Wilson and his pack who man the stores and services. There are other evangelical churches in town but they keep silence, perhaps fearing to be in the crosshairs of Wilson.

    i.e. Penetrate/Colonize/Conquer/Plant Wilson is Calvin, Moscow is Geneva, and nobody wants to become Servetus. “Today Moscow, Tomorrow The World!”

  143. @ GovPappy:
    @ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
    @ nmgirl:

    I am “flicted” as we say in the South. On one hand, i do agree that Katie has been set up since childhood to submit to men, etc.

    On the other hand, unless she is deemed mentally ill so that she is shown to have no knowledge that the sexual molestation of a baby is wrong, she must bare some guilt in this matter. The fact that the judge thinks she could be trained to be, once again, a chaperon for her son indicates to me that she is not insane, fully brainwashed or a sociopath.

    One of the deepest human instincts is a mother’s compulsion to protect their baby from harm at all costs. We see this in humans as well as in animals.

    I must admit that I am leaning toward the possibility that she is willing to give up the well being of her child in order to stay married to the pervert and/or obey Doug Wilson.

  144. dee wrote:

    I must admit that I am leaning toward the possibility that she is willing to give up the well being of her child in order to stay married to the pervert and/or obey Doug Wilson.

    Because if she doesn’t Obey Pastor PCCP, she gets to Burn In Hell For All Eternity.

  145. Hester wrote:

    Wilson recommended women have unprotected sex with their HIV-positive husbands, so he is denying the danger of HIV.

    Could you lead me to any link for that? I am determined to help document the dangerous oddities of Wilson and would like to make sure some other people get that link for ongoing research. Thanks!

  146. Mara wrote:

    I was equally shocked at how the little Drisconians defended him and his doctrine in the face the devastating evidence against them.

    Their God Can Do No Wrong.

  147. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Burn In Hell For All Eternity.

    Yeah, and since she is a member of Wilson’s *kirk* she probably believes her baby gets a direct pass to heaven because she is a faithful SuperReformed, obedient woman.

  148. Gram3 wrote:

    IQ-absorbed is a good way of putting it.

    Intelligence 18, Wisdom 3, with X levels in Intellectual Snob.

  149. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Actually, a good way to see what a new ideology or other kind of transformative movement is really about is to check out what the next generation does with it … especially those who take it to what the originators might consider to be an extreme.

    More Islamic than Mohammed, more Calvinist than Calvin, more Marxist than Marx?

  150. May wrote:

    Do you mean deception on the part of Piper et al?

    Do you knew that Jonna Petry (Driscoll victim) as well as some SGM victims reached out to Piper to ask for some help. He didn’t even bother to respond.

    It is important to understand that Piper appears to believe that theology is far more important than caring about molested children and abuse parishioners.

  151. Gram3 wrote:

    As you learned, bringing logic and reasoning and pointing out factual errors doesn’t get you anyplace good with people who are indoctrinated to reject information from outside the system.

    At which point, the wall in the mind slams down and there are only the Thoughtstoppers screamed in your face.

    “THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”

    Wilson has other sidekicks, too, like Peter Leithart of the PCA which failed to discipline him. Or James Jordan. Or Steve Wilkins. Or any number of others from the remnants of the Recons.

    Tabaqui the Jackals, sucking up to Shere Khan for scraps from the tiger’s kills.

    Wilson’s ideas came from others, and he packaged them and markets them to people who fancy themselves to be intellectuals.

    “You don’t need any intellect to be an Intellectual.”
    — G.K.Chesterton, one of the Father Brown Mysteries

  152. @ May:
    There are some interesting stories coming out of the U of Idaho regarding Wilson’s student years. During that time he was reportedly concurrently teaching in his school. Wilson is not admired by many of the professors. But, of course, he blows this off to them being “liberal.” It is a way for him to get instant obfuscation.

  153. dee wrote:

    One of the deepest human instincts is a mother’s compulsion to protect their baby from harm at all costs. We see this in humans as well as in animals.
    I must admit that I am leaning toward the possibility that she is willing to give up the well being of her child in order to stay married to the pervert and/or obey Doug Wilson

    Spot on, Dee. I have heard this referred to as “tearing up your parent card”.

  154. Julie Anne wrote:

    I think there is a slippery slope with sex, too, especially when going outside the bounds of conventional sex, so my guess is they put restrictions on sex, knowing that sex is a normal part of our life. I think the restrictions are there so it won’t go beyond normal.

    But then Entropy sets in, and the next gen has to put restrictions around the restrictions, and the gen after them has to put restrictions around the restrictions around the restrictions, and the gen after them…

    “SEE HOW RIGHTEOUS *I* AM? SEE? SEE? SEE?”

  155. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I was also a resident of Pullman Washington-Moscow Idaho area for about 15 years in the 1970s and ’80s.

    Do you have any information on how Wilson got caught up in Recon theology? Jim Wilson wasn’t weird, according to someone I trust who knew him. What happened?

  156. dee wrote:

    There are other evangelical churches in town but they keep silence, perhaps fearing to be in the crosshairs of Wilson.

    I don’t know about these days and the evangelical churches there. But back in the 1980s when I was a refugee from one of those toxic Moscow Idaho churches, I do not know if my faith would’ve survived, had it not been for the non-hipster “hospital church” I fled to. They showed immense patience and love as I slowly recuperated from massive spiritual breaks and bruises. Much of the healing came from their and simply including me in the everyday life of the church so they didn’t hold a negative identity label of “victim” over me, but treated me with a positive identity as “brother.”

    There were people in that church with world-class academic credentials that dwarfed anything the pseudo-intellectuals running the popular but toxic local churches could even dream of. And yet, that hospital church showed a wise balance that showed it was grounded. It included a broad cross-section of people from the larger community: farmers, business people, professors, and people who worked at the university. No segment seemed to dominate; leadership involved discernment, not “spiritual brownie points” for I.Q. or wealth or whatever.

    In the last 40 years, I’ve had maybe three or four turning-point experiences of churches that fostered genuine community and personal growth. Each came after a period of surviving malignant ministries, which heightened the contrast between what makes for a trustworthy versus a toxic church environment. That evangelical church was one of them.

  157. nmgirl wrote:

    Don’t you think Katie would question WHY this was necessary to protect her child? Or is she so out of touch with reality that she thinks this is normal?

    The problem is that her lived reality, the one in which she has always been, (and still is), tells her that her perceptions are wrong. If she is anything like my mother (and me, for a while after I got out), she sees something weird, gets upset and then criticizes herself for feeling cynical, distrusting. For not having faith! So she shoves it down.

    But when, just before she falls asleep, she sometimes glimpses a more accurate picture, she sinks under the huge burden of guilt (on top of all the guilt her belief system puts on her) for having failed her child. And that glimpse is so overwhelming to her already-trashed self that she runs like a banshee. She falls into nightmares and the next morning, she is deeply depressed for no apparent reason, and that is sinful, so she fights to just get through the day, gluing the mask of serenity to her face.

    I suspect that is how she is living. She is both guilty and a tragedy. She is required to do something that most people never have to face. I feel very sorry for her but also feel relentless that she do what she must do. I don’t think she can do it alone.

    Would any woman who wasn’t brainwashed into un-reality marry a guy like Sitler? Not only was he a convicted pedophile, but his form of pedophila and the amount of it, is absolutely repellent.

  158. dee wrote:

    On the other hand, unless she is deemed mentally ill so that she is shown to have no knowledge that the sexual molestation of a baby is wrong,

    I have been wondering about Katie as well.
    Without knowing anything about her, not seeing pictures etc, I have to wonder what was/is going on with her that she and her parents have to enlist the help of Doug Wilson, himself, to find her a husband.

    In their circle, the highest calling any woman can have is to be a wife and mother. So that position is desirable above all else. What was/is it about Katie that she and her parents were having trouble finding her a spouse? What was it that put her in the the desperate position to need a man, any man, in order for her to achieve her highest calling?

    I do not mean to dis Katie’s intelligence, looks, weight, or whatever else that may be going on with her to make her less desirable to more normal men. I have no clue that there was/is anything amiss.

    Yet I cannot help but wonder what really is going on with this girl. What has made her so ridiculously vulnerable to this situation and so accepting of her situation to the point of accepting the potential and actual molestation of her child.

  159. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    NJ wrote:

    I went and checked out the link to the facebook page for the Moscow-Pullman daily news, and went to the comment thread. There was a woman named Dotty Young who said this:
    “The same judge is the one who gave them permission to marry in the first place. He could be covering his own hide.”

    Sad, sad, sad. This judge needs to be investigated.

    A woman named Rose who lives in Moscow, Idaho, is no fan of Wilson’s, and has been covering this story for years (and other troubling things about Wilson), posted more about this story over at Julie Anne’s Spiritual Sounding Board.
    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/

    Rose knows the judge and wrote this about him yesterday over at the Spiritual Sounding Board: “The judge is John Stegner. He has absolutely no connection to Christ Church. He has a stellar reputation. I know him and respect him. One of the difficulties, from my perspective, is that as much as I wish he could be proactive in this kind of case the law prevents it.”

    In the United States people are given pretty wide latitude to contract to marry.
    Examples:
    1) Most people in prisons are permitted to marry (and many do). I sure you can think of notorious criminals who married behind bars.
    2) I know of a case where a man under a conservatorship was taken across the border from California to Nevada one weekend by his caregiver who married him.
    She had been hired to make meals for him, tidy up, and give him his medications. The adult children, conservator, attorney, and country probate judge (who had the conservatorship case) could do nothing to undo this marriage, couldn’t use *undue influence*, etc. The woman finally had to be paid off by the adult children when the father died.

  160. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Van Til, Rushdoony, Kuyper, Schaeffer, Warfield, Dooyeweerd, and the like,…then seeing how rigid and punitive and, well, I.Q.-absorbed (idolizing?) so many of the originators and followers were helped reset my course.

    True here too.

  161. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    More Islamic than Mohammed, more Calvinist than Calvin, more Marxist than Marx?

    Yuh know, HUG, I think I’d settle most days for something like, “More human than human.” (Quoting Dr. Eldon Tyrell there.) But seems so many idolizers are fragmented in their personhood and especially not as in touch with their emotions as were those of whom Dr. Tyrell spoke … and so they go for the more obvious and socially valued I.Q. (especially in an academic community like Moscow).

  162. @ Mara:
    In all the cases we discuss here, the question always arises of “What were they thinking?” In all these cases, the people (like me) who do things which make no sense are thinking too much about the *wrong* things, and that makes them (me) stupid about the things they should be paying attention to. What were the ELDERS at The Village thinking? What is Piper thinking on any number of counts? What were the responsible adults in the Driscoll fiasco thinking? What are the highly intelligent people I know who are involved with Wilson’s gang thinking? What was Rachel Held Evans thinking? And on and on.

  163. Mara wrote:

    Yet I cannot help but wonder what really is going on with this girl.

    Me as well. I have a feeling it is more an internal/phyc issue, weather her environment while growing up or biological or a combination of both. One’s self worth must be at a severe disadvantage to be willing to be talked about as her parents, Doug Wilson, and Co. have done (and publicly writing about it), along with marrying a known paedophile. Something is just not adding up.

  164. Steve wrote:

    The D.Min is a joke. Pastors get it so they can be called “doctor.”

    You are correct. In fact, Ravi Zacharias claims he has 6 doctorates. He doesn’t. They are honorary.

  165. Gram3 wrote:

    Do you have any information on how Wilson got caught up in Recon theology? Jim Wilson wasn’t weird, according to someone I trust who knew him. What happened?

    Big questions there. Let me try to work from a couple big picture realities inward with some observations and analysis, plus some speculation based on my own journey. This’ll take a bit, so hang in there til I can connect the dots.

    Pullman, WA, and Moscow, ID, both have land-grant universities and they are only 8 miles apart, nestled in the huge “Palouse” farming region known for growing grains and legumes. Back when I lived there, say that Pullman had maybe 40,000 and Moscow had 18,000 populations (somebody else can do fact checking on that). The point is that in both places, the universities involved about 75% of the people — students, professors, administrators, staff. When school was out, the towns seemed empty.

    Into that environment came CCM — Community Christian Ministries — an ecumenical evangelical endeavor which included a Christian bookstore/coffee shop in each town, and sponsored Bible studies there, and organized Christian concerts, etc. CCM was not a church, but “The Wilsons” (a term we Christians heard often) clearly seemed to be a dominating force in CCM and in churches in both towns.

    Okay, now shift to the larger historical context of Christianity in the 1970s and ’80s. It was a time when a broader range of Christian publishers were (finally) taking on worldview issues in academia and social activism. Waves of books were being produced on just about every academic discipline and on a variety of social issues – ecology, economy, justice, ethics. These books frequently referred to leading thinkers on holistic Christian worldviews … and guess who’d already been doing much of that work? People from a reformed theology perspective.

    In my observation, those more aligned with Francis Schaeffer worked on issues of arts, culture, and philosophies. Those more aligned with Rousas J. Rushdoony worked on issues of politics, economics, and sciences. (Both Schaeffer and Rushdoony were influenced by Van Til and B.B. Warfield, IIRC.) And then you had Sider, Yoder, and others from other theological camps, but really, those seemed to be in the minority and the Reformed perspectives dominated.

    Connect the dots: You have two towns with huge numbers of college students ages 18-25ish, Christian bookstores near the campuses where students can wander in and have coffee and a conversation, campus ministries that feed into a couple of churches featuring “The Wilsons” and their trainees teaching — in an overall environment of increased interest in social and political and philosophical worldview issues (by both Christians and non-Christians). Seems a “perfect storm” combination for someone charismatic to step in who seems to be an intellectual and is a wordsmith, capable of fluency in speaking authoritatively about multiple disciplines, with a built-in framework for reaching impressionable collegians and channeling them into dynastic ministries.

    The more speculative side of this comes partly from personal experience. I was a systems thinker before I even had any idea what that meant. I just knew I felt driven to study *everything* and the people who had been on the forefront of developing resources about all these different fields, from a distinctively “Christian” view were Reformed – Calvinist – Reconstructionist. There was an attractive sense of their having a comprehensive worldview. But it seemed in the long run I figured out that was (in Reconstructionism, at least) a Trojan Horse for dominionism: imposing that worldview on others and “ministering” in ways that created conflict and not built bridges for peace. So, it lost me as a devotee.

    Douglas Wilson apparently has enough of a systems mindset to set up a “classicist” schooling system. But he also (in my direct experiences and through what I learned from the direct experiences of my friends) had a severely hierarchical, authoritarian, and highly competitive spirit to him. So … what theological system available in that era would best fit wanting to establish a distinctively Christian schooling approach as an alternative for debating with worldly so-called wisdom?

    Reconstructionism. And it does seem that the decades of evidence show that typical *contentious* and *dominionist* spirit that inevitably goes with it.

    So, there’s my analysis, for what it’s worth.

  166. dee wrote:

    Could you lead me to any link for that?

    According to one blogger, it comes from Wilson’s book Fidelity: How to Be a One Woman Man.

    Subsequent note: in the same book, Wilson denies that the HIV virus causes AIDS, and advocates that women have unprotected sex with their HIV positive husbands. No, seriously. Search inside the book at Amazon.com. Page 169.

    http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2013/07/on-domestic-violence-how-conservative.html?m=1

  167. Steve wrote:

    The D.Min is a joke. Pastors get it so they can be called “doctor.” Nothing could be funnier. Theological education is a fraud.

    I am very uncomfortable with this statement, as I believe it is too broad-brushed a criticism.

    Yes, I know some fakery goes on with honorary doctorates, and yes, some PhDs, ThDs, and DMins are in it for less than noble reasons.

    I worked in a seminary for 11 years, including 3 years as an administrative assistant for the DMin department. By watching and listening, and applying some discernment, I could see who seemed to be in it for a meaningful learning experience to cultivate their ministry skills and improve their ability to serve others — and who seemed to be in it for other reasons.

    There is nothing wrong with being curious about the world we live in, wanting to learn more truth and apply it to real situations, to make as best of an impact as we can as disciples. If we’re seeking to steward God’s gifts to us, we’ll be life-long learners.

    And for what it’s worth, I only have a bachelor’s degree. I would dearly love to pursue advanced degrees, but my life circumstances haven’t turned out that way.

  168. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    “More human than human.” (Quoting Dr. Eldon Tyrell there.)

    You must be nexus-6. Can you pass the Turing test? How many questions on the Voight-Kampff machine? === > (smiley face goes here)

  169. Casey wrote:

    You can’t use that book to deny HIV’s danger. It’s a distortion of Duesberg’s findings.

    Thanks for the cross-check.

    dee wrote:

    Hester wrote:
    Wilson recommended women have unprotected sex with their HIV-positive husbands, so he is denying the danger of HIV.
    Could you lead me to any link for that? I am determined to help document the dangerous oddities of Wilson and would like to make sure some other people get that link for ongoing research. Thanks!

    Thanks, Hester, for the suggestion of an additional source of info, and thanks, Dee, for taking the time to document these! It has been years since I read any of Wilson’s writings, and more years since I heard him teach, and I destroyed all the notebooks I ever took notes in at church or workshops or seminars or homeschool conventions, so I have no facts anymore. But I still have friends who describe Wilson in glowing terms, and sort of pat me on the head when I mention being leery of him and his “plant, conquer” nonsense, for starters. It would help to have a list.

    Also, his defenders (when you bring something up) are sure to note the date. If it’s not recent, well, then, that was when he was younger. He’s matured since then…

    While I am one who tends to give the benefit of the doubt, often to my own detriment, I have found Wilson’s teachings to have destructive results in our family and former church.

    When I met him, I found him arrogant and prideful. I chastised myself for judging and subscribed to Credenda Agenda for awhile to try and learn. I finally cancelled the subscription after a year. The tone was rude, elitest, self-congratulatory, and arrogant, for the most part. I think I got one or two helpful things out of the women who wrote articles, but then I was trying hard to fit in as a submitter so I’m not sure how helpful I’d find their articles today.

  170. Here’s some quotes from the marriage hearing Stegner presided over. He recognized years ago that if children were produced that husband and wife may not be allowed to reside together. I’ve never read anything that suggests the judge has a connection to Wilson, but am looking.

    Wilson and everyone in this church who encouraged this are to blame. They could see what they were setting up for this young woman. I get the sense, perhaps wrongly, that the judge was not wishing to overstep the constitution, even though one could see the potential issues created. I’m not defending the judge necessarily. I just don’t think we have the full picture on this yet.

    http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2011-June/076773.html

  171. Moscow, Idaho sounds like a real hell hole. Strange how one ‘famous’ person can manipulate a city into allowing the torment of an infant by his ‘friend’,
    but it looks like this was done.

    I wish a lot of those responsible could be jailed for the protection of all the children around them. And perhaps the state could examine those in a position of responsibility who were manipulated and caved in, allowing so much suffering.

  172. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Brad,
    I always enjoy reading your thoughtful comments and appreciate your response to mine. Is my wording extreme? Yes. Do I believe it is time for extreme measures? Yes.

    I spent six years at a medical university learning how to perform a specialized procedure in the field of dentistry. My degree is a doctorate. I don’t introduce myself as Dr. I always say, “Hi, I’m Steve, glad to meet you.” I get called doctor but prefer my first name. That’s just my personal preference. The work to acquire this Dr. title was gruesome. I know I’m a Dr. and I earn people’s respect by the care I provide not the diploma on the wall.

    I also have studied theology at two “evangelical” seminaries and acquired an M.Div. Two courses were comparable to any courses I took after high school. They were courses in the Hebrew language. The professor was phenomenal and very hard. He was a liberal holdover at a seminary that was overtaken by a bunch of conservative thugs (I consider myself conservative but not like these guys.)

    The D.Min. is not worthy of the title “Dr.” It is a waste of time and money. Pastors are usually quick to put their Dr. on the church signs, bulletins, and websites. I’m in favor of learning. I’m still learning. I’m not in favor of these D.Min “projects” so that a man can be called Dr.

    Here’s a link to a post on Wade Burleson’s blog that may be more helpful:

    http://www.wadeburleson.org/2010/05/pastor-with-d-min-degree-should-not-be.html

    Peace,
    Steve

    P.S. To anyone who has a theological degree: I’m not slamming you. I’m just stating a fact. There is no comparison to a REAL doctorate and a D.Min. Apologies in advance if that is offensive. Just a fact.

  173. May wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:

    No formal theological education, a cult of authority and personality, a proprietary system of religious franchises, and a theology of law, law, law.

    The lack of formal education really comes through when you read Wilson’s books that are attempting to be academic. They are so bad it’s almost funny. I had the misfortune of being asked to review a book by Wilson and his sidekick Douglas Jones for a Christian conference.

    I look back at myself when I was deep in, and have to shake my head in wonder. I was an intelligent, college-educated woman. And yet I did not see what you saw, when reading his books. They made me feel stupid, actually; or maybe the better term would be stupified.

    Looking back, it’s as if there was a glamour cast over us, the kind that makes a toad look like a prince. His teaching style was charming, you felt like you were learning all these deep and thought-provoking things; his books were “deep” as well — or at least, that’s why I thought I had trouble reading them. I’m not sure what I’d think now, and don’t even have to force myself to go back and take a look — we burned or recycled all of his materials along with all the rest we had accumulated over the years.

  174. @ Steve:
    You sound a lot like my husband. Let me tell you a true story.

    For two years we attended Ed Young Jrs church. I repent for that fact regularly on this blog. Ed would only have the titled people in the church to give the prayers. Lawyers, doctors, PhD, along with famous people of Dallas. And he would brag about who was praying each week.

    So, one day, hubby got a call and asked if he would say the prayer. He said, “Yes.” Then just before they printed the bulletin, he told them that he want to be listed as Bill Parsons; not Dr Bill or Bill MD. He also said he wanted to be introduced as plain old Bill since, in the church, we are all the same in God’s eyes.

    Well, this caused an uproar. It was too late to get another prayer dude so they went with Bill. However, plain old Bill Parsons was never asked to pray again. He loves to tell people that story.

  175. refugee wrote:

    The tone was rude, elitest, self-congratulatory, and arrogant, for the most part.

    I tweeted something to this effect today.

  176. @ refugee:
    p.s. I really do think he casts something like a glamour! I was thinking about this a little more, and thought about our highly educated, intelligent friends who hold him high in their esteem and send their kids to NSA.

  177. Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    Wilson and everyone in this church who encouraged this are to blame. They could see what they were setting up for this young woman

    Reading the exchange between Mirele and Kamilla at his blog, the attitude is clear. Kamilla asks Mirele if she doesn’t believe in God’s power, in the possibility of repentance, or something to that effect. The tone is insulting and arrogant. It’s as if she (a Wilson-follower) has some secret understanding and superior knowledge that the rest of us poor peons lack.

  178. Having worked in a profession where I was around a lot of judges, my gut is that this judge doesn’t really give a rats-patootey about Doug Wilson. If DW and his like are influential, it could be an issue of keeping the electorate content. He is an elected judge if I understand correctly.

    For the life of me it is hard to understand why Stegner will not go ahead and demand Sitler’s removal. But sometimes judges tread differently because they do not want to create appealable issues or challenges later. It is a different type of decision making that we don’t always understand. This whole situation is a sick mess and Wilson presided over the whole thing.

  179. refugee wrote:

    They made me feel stupid, actually; or maybe the better term would be stupified.

    I believe this is how Doug Wilson wants people to feel when they read his work. All the better for him to feel superior.

    From reading an article he wrote this year, he definitely believes the clergy have a better handle on how to handle sexual sin in the church than the government.

  180. dee wrote:

    You are correct. In fact, Ravi Zacharias claims he has 6 doctorates. He doesn’t. They are honorary.

    I don’t even mention my earned degrees–why do people make a big deal out of their honorary degrees? I don’t understand.

  181. refugee wrote:

    The tone is insulting and arrogant.

    When I first began commenting on TWW in 2012, another commenter (can’t remember who) warned me about the Bayly blog for that reason. They are vicious. There is no reasoning with them.

  182. refugee wrote:

    Reading the exchange between Mirele and Kamilla at his blog, the attitude is clear. Kamilla asks Mirele if she doesn’t believe in God’s power, in the possibility of repentance, or something to that effect. The tone is insulting and arrogant. It’s as if she (a Wilson-follower) has some secret understanding and superior knowledge that the rest of us poor peons lack.

    To which I would reply to Kamilla using the phrase from attorney, child advocate, and author Andrew Vachss with: “Behavior is truth.”

    If Kamilla needs other sources they are easily available: 1) Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches in the U.S. has the information on child sexual abuse; and 2) attorney Richard Hammer at Church Law & Tax also has the information on the epidemic of child sexual abuse in the church. Hammer reviews more than 10,000 lawsuits against churches every single year. And every single year for years on end the Sexual Abuse of Minors is the No. 1 reason that churches get sued.

    The liability is so great for insurance companies, that many of them are pulling out of the church insurance markets altogether. Some insurance companies are notifying churches that they must minister to sex offenders separately from the regular congregation and from being around children, or cancelling their insurance coverage.

    Then there’s Justice Department data and countless other sources of information.

    There’s predator expert Dr. Anna Salter’s work (articles, books, interviews) about how cunning predators are.

    And finally there are sex offenders themselves who say what an easy mark churches are to get new victims and how trusting and naïve church people are.

    How much more evidence does Kamilla need?????

  183. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    here was an attractive sense of their having a comprehensive worldview. But it seemed in the long run I figured out that was (in Reconstructionism, at least) a Trojan Horse for dominionism: imposing that worldview on others and “ministering” in ways that created conflict and not built bridges for peace.

    Brad, you have a way of taking the things I’ve lived and experienced and condensing them to understandable concepts (I don’t know if “concepts” is the word I want, but my brain is fuzzy today and the caffeine is not kicking in as it usually does). Thank you.

    Analysis can be obfuscating (as in I get lost in the thread of discussion, or bound up in the details, or confused by jargon), or it can be clarifying. Today, I find you clarified for me.

  184. Bunsen Honeydew wrote:

    For the life of me it is hard to understand why Stegner will not go ahead and demand Sitler’s removal. But sometimes judges tread differently because they do not want to create appealable issues or challenges later.

    Rose Huskey, who has been very involved with this from the beginning, left a few comments on SSB. This is what she said about Judge Stegner:

    He has absolutely no connection to Christ Church. He has a stellar reputation. I know him and respect him. One of the difficulties, from my perspective, is that as much as I wish he could be proactive in this kind of case the law prevents it. Thoughts and feelings are not prosecutable – actions are. So far, Steven Sitler has only admitted to thoughts and feelings.

    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/09/04/pastor-doug-wilson-a-serial-pedophile-and-the-real-victims/comment-page-1/#comment-291745

  185. Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:

    @ Velour:
    None of which addresses the appalling decision to allow him to be around his child or to allow the mother to be “chaperone”. Although I am willing to assign this to incompetence rather than malice.

    I am not certain what goes on in the State of Idaho regarding child abuse and abusive churches/members. A few weeks ago I came across other articles about Idaho cemeteries filled with graves in the past decade of children whose *Christian* parents and pastors/elders didn’t believe in getting the children basic medical care and the children died. The practice is still ongoing. OK, in my state the parents would be arrested and prosecuted for that. Their children would have been taken out of their custody.

  186. refugee wrote:

    Brad, you have a way of taking the things I’ve lived and experienced and condensing them to understandable concepts (I don’t know if “concepts” is the word I want, but my brain is fuzzy today and the caffeine is not kicking in as it usually does). Thank you.

    Thanks, refugee. That’s encouraging to hear. Maybe one of the things that works is that I try to sprinkle in word pictures (bridges, ashes), metaphors and analogies (espresso, Trojan Horse) … because I find these help glue together abstract concepts with concrete actions — ideas with images. These seem to give multiple entryways for people to think about the topic, depending on a person’s main learning style is more abstract/idea-oriented or more concrete/image-oriented.

    I think this is deserving of another cuppa coffee, why yes, I do indeed …

    P.S. The writing project of a curriculum for church planters and social entrepreneurs that I sometimes mention feels never-ending in part because it’s like writing it three times: once in words, once by selecting art illustrations that capture the essence of the text, and once by selecting movies that show what the text tells. But that allows more kinds of people to “get it” in the learning language that fits them best. So, it’s worth the effort. We need multiple kinds of people on our teams if we want it to last and for our differences to lead to strength instead of just to conflict.

  187. refugee wrote:

    At least yesterday, when I read, Kamilla had not expressed any concern at all for the welfare of the baby.

    Kamilla is also a strong supporter of SGM and CJ Mahaney claiming that it is all a lie. She thinks every molestation is just another mcMartin case. She believes anything and everything that the Bayly Brothers and Doug Wilson say.

  188. To follow up on what BTDT said, I’m reminded of something that happened when I was doing observation in family court in law school. There was a terrible, terrible case of a child who had been removed from the family for abuse. The parents went through everything they were supposed to do to get him back. They did the training, they had the observations by social workers, they finally got him back. Not long after that, the child was choked to death by his father shoving a piece of pizza down his throat.

    I remember a conversation I had with the judge. He was very unhappy at the way the social worker was being treated in the press, because she had done everything she was supposed to do and under the regulations, she HAD to turn the child back over to the parents, because the law in Texas back in the 1980s (I don’t know about now) was family reunification above all else.

    So that may be the situation we’re dealing with here. The predator may be doing everything he’s supposed to be doing (and it sounds like his wife and his parents went through the observer training) and that’s enough, even though it also means the infant is now the target of his father’s perverted sexual desires. And, as I think was pointed out above, there is pretty much an unlimited right to get married in the USA. The judge probably didn’t want his courtroom turned into a legal battleground over the right of a convicted pedophile on lifetime probation to get married.

    tl;dr: you can do everything right and still terrible things happen. It is my personal opinion that Sitler is doing everything right (except for that sexual stimulation by his own child *barf*) and so the court is having a hard time justifying doing much more than what has already happened.

    I am so frustrated. 🙁

  189. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Thoughts and feelings are not prosecutable – actions are. So far, Steven Sitler has only admitted to thoughts and feelings.

    Above actually quotes Rose Huskey.

    This is what we run into in the Foster Care department I work for.

    Because things are so easily appeal, many judges/lawyers will tread lightly, making sure there is no room for question so the that finally, after many months or even years, the case is so air tight, apeals are shot down quickly.

    Very frustrating when dealing with the permanency needs of children and the emotional roller coaster it puts foster parents through.

  190. @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Let’s take a look at the testimony again.

    “Thompson said information the court now has “shows (Sitler) has had contact with his child that resulted in actual sexual stimulation.” Thompson said the incidents in question occurred while Sitler was chaperoned.”

    “The actions that he has engaged in and disclosed are a compelling basis that he cannot have anything close to a normal parental relationship at this time with his child,” Thompson said. “Everybody would love for Mr. Sitler to become a normal person, but the fact is he is not. He is a serial child sexual abuser.”

    According to this, he did actually abuse the child.

  191. dee wrote:

    According to this, he did actually abuse the child.

    That’s how I’d interpret it, too. I assume Rose Huskey was at the hearing. She has attended all the other hearings to date. I wish she could offer more clarity on this.

  192. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I try to sprinkle in word pictures (bridges, ashes), metaphors and analogies (espresso, Trojan Horse) … because I find these help glue together abstract concepts with concrete actions — ideas with images.

    Ah, that would make sense, then. I think in pictures, more than words. Or perhaps I mean I construe ideas in pictures. If I can form a picture from a passage, it makes a clearer focus in my mind and memory.

    It’s fuzzy in my memory, but I remember reading something Wilson-esque (was it Wilson, or George Grant, perhaps? I can’t remember), about how higher thinking involves words rather than images. The writer was bemoaning the dumbing-down of our culture, as it devolved from expression through words, to communication using images. Perhaps that is why I am confused by a multitude of words, or perhaps that attitude does not take into consideration different learning styles and differing ways that thinking and memory work in different brains.

  193. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Douglas Wilson apparently has enough of a systems mindset to set up a “classicist” schooling system. But he also (in my direct experiences and through what I learned from the direct experiences of my friends) had a severely hierarchical, authoritarian, and highly competitive spirit to him. So … what theological system available in that era would best fit wanting to establish a distinctively Christian schooling approach as an alternative for debating with worldly so-called wisdom?

    Do you know if Greg Bahnsen lectured at any of the “out-there” churches back then? My experience is that Bahnsen (and Gary North up until Y2K) were the intellectual gurus. Along with them were Leithart and Jordan and the others. Bahnsen’s compelling persona was effective in spreading Rushdoonyism among the Reformedish community until his death. Since then, I think that Leithart and Jordan and Wilson and their disciples have been carrying on the work to first capture the Reformed, then the wider church and then the world.

    You can find Leithart and Jordan and Gary DeMar, for example, quoted and featured by mainstream evangelicals who have no idea what the background of these guys is or that they are influencing Wilson to this very day. I don’t think that most of these younger mainstream evangelicals look beyond the “anti-dispensational” and “pro-presuppositionalism” label to consider whether what these men say is true! They are reacting against one theology or philosophy and uncritically accepting and promoting bad theology and bad practice. It is very sad.

    I hope this is not OT, but many people do not understand how we got where we are. Rushdoony taught a religion based on the enlightened elites ruling over the unenlightened ones. It is clear how this would be attractive to people who imagine that they are among the elites. Like, for example, academic towns. Other people are drawn into it via a desire to do what pleases God, and these guys tell you exactly how to do that.

    Covenant-keeping is a very big deal, and if you disagree with them, you are a covenant-breaker because they speak for God as his representatives. Breaking covenant has severe consequences, and I think this may have played into Katie’s willingness to go along with marrying Sitler. Head-of-household rule is a very big deal as well. She was under the Mr. Iverson’s rule as a member of his household *and* he was an elder at the “church.” So there was another layer of “spiritual authority” that she risked offending.

    The craziness goes back to Rushdoony who took Van Til to eleven. And this, IMO, explains the arrogance of the Wilsonistas. They are the enlightened elites whom God has ordained to rule. Because Order of Creation. They are predestined to be Rulers and so feel entitled to rule absolutely.

  194. refugee wrote:

    I look back at myself when I was deep in, and have to shake my head in wonder. I was an intelligent, college-educated woman. And yet I did not see what you saw, when reading his books.

    Please don’t be too hard on yourself. I now have a PhD in history from a UK Russell Group university – and at undergraduate level I studied the era Wilson was attempting to write about in this particular book. I was particularly well-placed to see the errors in his writing. Glaring errors to me, but I imagine you would have to know a bit about the period to spot them.

    His intellectualism is an act – when you examine the guy’s actual writings, you realise it’s all smoke and mirrors: designed to sound clever, but devoid of knowledge or understanding. I don’t doubt for a second that Wilson’s pretensions to academia make him a laughing-stock among the faculty at the Uni of Idaho with their hard-earned PhDs.

  195. I’m getting sick and tired of this sort of post on TWW and other watchblogs … of “Christian” men abusing children and women. TWW’s tagline is “Dissecting Christian Trends”. These are, indeed, disturbing church trends but these aren’t Christians! The enemy has deceptively set up shop in far too many churches, some dressed as shepherds. Christians, the real ones, really need to pray for a new measure of discernment to spot these devils and deal with them before they work their evil deeds.

  196. @ dee:
    This is part of another comment that Rose left on SSB:

    On September 1, 2015 Katie’s Sitler’s status as an approved chaperon was removed as were the chaperon privileges of Steven Sitler’s parents. Steven had disclosed to both his wife and his parents inappropriate thoughts (to his parents) and physical responses regarding his son to his wife and psychologist. None of the people reported his disclosures (as they were required to do) to the authorities.

    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/09/04/pastor-doug-wilson-a-serial-pedophile-and-the-real-victims/comment-page-1/#comment-291736

    Of course, his polygraph test results could indicate that he hasn’t made a full disclosure of exactly what he’s been up to.

  197. Matt 13:13. They look, but do not see. They hear, but do not understand.

    I think of this verse often when I see people who seem so devoted to the Word, but yet have really missed something basic, lacking discernment and wisdom. How can a Doug Wilson support a young woman being shackled to a pedophile, and likewise their children? Where is the care and concern for people?

  198. refugee wrote:

    @ refugee:
    p.s. I really do think he casts something like a glamour! I was thinking about this a little more, and thought about our highly educated, intelligent friends who hold him high in their esteem and send their kids to NSA.

    About 3 years ago I wrote a guest post for TWW about our family’s experiences at a classical Christian school created in the Wilsonian Logos model. Three of our children went to the school. The climate at that school was suffused with overweening intellectual pride – board members, founding families, and some (but not all) of the teaching staff.

  199. refugee wrote:

    […] about how higher thinking involves words rather than images. The writer was bemoaning the dumbing-down of our culture, as it devolved from expression through words, to communication using images.

    Geepers creepers, that sounds more like the presuppositions of esoteric Enlightenment “thinking” and linguistic perfectionism (i.e., if you can perfectly describe concepts, then you’ve captured the perfect philosophy). These totally ignore other approaches to learning styles, and value only words and devalue any/all other forms of processing information. Foolishness …

    Didn’t God reveal Himself in more than words? Words weren’t enough, hence the incarnation: The Word made flesh.

  200. The more I read about Wilson and the Sitler case, the more flabbergasted I am.

    Have I got this right? – For years, Sitler has been a known, serial sex offender who targets young children. For years, Wilson was fully aware of this, yet he arranged for Sitler to enter several families’ homes as a boarder. And he did not inform the families. And so many children were abused by Sitler.

    Then Wilson arranged for him to be married to a young woman and publically prayed that they might have children.

    ?

  201. Gram3 wrote:

    Do you know if Greg Bahnsen lectured at any of the “out-there” churches back then?

    I read some Bahnsen back then, but I don’t recall him lecturing in person. Might have after I left the area, mid-1980s.

    But the other stuff you said about covenant-keeping and such certainly all fits with that competitive, us-versus-them, elitist-entitlement one-up-manship mindset. Seems like any theological system of principles and practices that divides people into categories is what happened there. So, the people who were really NOT part of the in-crowd in my era were single men and women who were past college age, regardless of spiritual sincerity or academic ability. We weren’t the only ones who got messed over, though. Everyone in a tank of toxicity is susceptible.

  202. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    I saw that somewhere so knew that some action had been taken.
    So now, it appears, we are in the waiting period to see what further action the court will take.
    Definitely something to keep watching closely.

  203. @ May:

    I think that Wilson and other like-minded people view marriage as somewhat of a “cure” to pedophiles and other sex criminals.

  204. @ Gram3: I have never care for the James Jordan crowd and particularly dislike Van Til but I don’t think they were in any kind of cult to take over the world. Bahnsen seemed like a decent person, a good philosopher if you buy into Van Tilianism, which much of the Reformed world did in the 80’s and 90’s. Wilson and co. are different species. Wilson got a lot of attention by talking about sex (kind of like Driscoll) and is completely arrogrant IMO and so confident people sometimes fall for his stuff. Of course, amidst all the yuk there is some truth, otherwise no one would listen to him at all. Like Harold Camping.

  205. Gram3 wrote:

    Breaking covenant has severe consequences, and I think this may have played into Katie’s willingness to go along with marrying Sitler.

    Of course the consequences are unpleasant. The very real fear of being cast out from one’s tribe tops the list followed by a string of lesser punishments which ultimately lead to perdition because it shows that she was never ‘saved’ or ‘regenerated’ in the first place.

  206. @ Godith:
    I did not know Bahnsen personally, so I take your word for his personality and intentions. The big problem is what his friends and disciples have done with his teachings. They hold to a radical form of postmillennialism, and part of their version of that is taking control of inferior authorities. That is in contrast to classical postmillennialism which has to do with the spread of the Gospel and the conversion of the world. Their brand is a much different thing entirely, IMO. “Conversionism” is anathema. Power and rule is their route to paving the way for the return of Christ. Lately they have played down the governmental takeover and have switched to liturgical “reform” to bring in the Kingdom. I cannot tell you how many jaw-dropping conversations I’ve had about this nuttiness and the other assorted nuttiness that has been going around since the early 70’s.

  207. Patty in Massachusetts wrote:

    Latest post on Bayly Blog: blasting female bloggers who have criticized Piper and Wilson. I think this time Tim has REALLY lost it. (Note that he does not seem to be referencing the Sitler situation, just expressing general outrage that women would have the temerity to publicly criticize these pillars of the church.)
    http://baylyblog.com/blog/2015/09/rachel-miller-and-valerie-hobbs-where-apostle-paul-when-we-need-him

    I read the post. They are the Poster Child for Patriarchy. It seems folks who don’t subscribe to their brand are in danger of going to hell. At least their out front about it.

  208. Pingback: Theology has consequences | A Daughter of the Reformation UNITED STATES

  209. @ Gram3:
    Bahnsen! That is another name I remember being dropped by the more “informed” men (the ones who earned a place among the elite of our former church by reading reams of theology and being ready to discuss, discourse, and debate at any and all times).

    I am learning a lot about the aberrant nature of our former church.

  210. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    But the other stuff you said about covenant-keeping and such certainly all fits with that competitive, us-versus-them, elitist-entitlement one-up-manship mindset.

    You have described the culture of our former church in the 90s, when Doug Wilson was an honored guest on occasion, to a “t”. And probably later, too, but by then I had learned to question myself, keep my head down, and set my brain on standby, until fairly recently.

  211. @ nmgirl:

    Considering Katie was (as is my understanding) brought up in a gender complementarian or patriarchal culture, she yes, might consider all this normal and-or not know where to turn, how to deal with any of this.

    Women who grow up under these teachings are not encouraged to make choices for themselves, or to think for themselves. They are like children trapped in the bodies of adults.

    Women are indoctrinated or told to look to others, especially men, to make choices for them.

    Questioning, criticizing or confronting men by women is verboten in those sorts of churches, cultures and families.
    See Bayly on that for a prime example:
    http://baylyblog.com/blog/2015/09/rachel-miller-and-valerie-hobbs-where-apostle-paul-when-we-need-him

    It’s one reason of a few why Anna Duggar may stay with Josh Duggar, or why Grace Driscoll stays married to a guy who I consider very unhealthy, Mark Driscoll.

  212. dee wrote:

    @ mirele:
    PS Did I see you engaging Kamilla Ludwig recently? You are in for a ride.

    I saw that conversation.

    Props to Mirele for that.

  213. Darlene wrote:

    I read the post. They are the Poster Child for Patriarchy. It seems folks who don’t subscribe to their brand are in danger of going to hell. At least they’re out front about it.

    Tim Bayly has said vegetarians are going to hell. Really.

  214. @ BeenThereDoneThat:

    I could not view page 169 on the free Amazon preview.
    The closest I could find to anything about this subject in the free preview was this from pages 152 – 153:

    [Question]: “A few years after marrying my wife, I was diagnosed with AIDS. I must have contracted it during my pre-conversion promiscuous years. Does this mean I must abstain from sex with my wife for my lifetime? Doesn’t my wife have an obligation to satisfy me sexually, since her body is not her own?”

    [Second paragraph of Wilson’s answer]:
    “…. Having said this, a few things should be said about AIDS. If by AIDS you mean that the HIV virus is present in your body, then I would refer you to the book Inventing The AIDS Virus by Peter Duesberg. It is quite possible your situation does not warrant abstention from sex at all – but only because the HIV virus is harmless.”

  215. @ Daisy:

    That’s a pretty sad blog post. Females cannot speak their conscience in his “order” of things. Why should the Holy Spirit even bother with us? Must be nice to be a guy in this type of system.

  216. @ dee:

    Well, Autodidact says the section on AIDS is on p. 169 of Fidelity, the same book the infamous “penetrate conquer colonize plant” thing came from. He says it’s available on the “search inside” feature on Amazon. I tried it and found it a while back, so if you search for “AIDS” or a related term it will probably come up. (His statements about Wilson are in an endnote to the post linked below, in the “Note on Rape” section.)

    http://fiddlrts.blogspot.com/2013/07/on-domestic-violence-how-conservative.html

  217. Also, Dee, I am in email contact with Autodidact so if you can’t view p. 169 (Daisy said she couldn’t), I could ask him how he found it.

  218. Gram3 wrote:

    I’m going to try to be civil, but this will be very difficult.

    IMO, none of the actors in this story, except the tiny baby, deserve civil treatment from bloggers, commenters, social media, or anyone else. I’m just stunned… and angry.

  219. A few odds and ends, unrelated to child-molesting:

    I’ve never been to Moscow, Idaho, but it sounds like a nice place. Basically a college town. Don’t make the mistake of assuming they’re all like this church.

    While the relationship between HIV and AIDS is a scientific question, which I am inclined to leave to scientists, anybody who tells people not to worry about spreading the virus should be invited to inject themselves with it, since they feel so strongly about the matter. They stand to benefit humanity either way. (I have in mind several South African politicians.)

    On doctorates, it’s hard to generalize. I loved my time as a Ph.D. student, and am very proud of being part of this ancient and noble tradition. On the other hand, it’s quite possible to get a Ph.D. in bullshit, and I can personally attest that having the degree is no bar to error, sin, or craziness. Beware of people who rely on their supposed authority, rather than their arguments–unless they are doctors or engineers or something, in which case they’re probably just tired of explaining themselves to people who won’t get it anyway. Authors of astrology books often add letters after their names, but that doesn’t make astrology any more plausible.

    A D.Min. is a professional degree which is distinguished from a Th.D. by focusing more on the nitty-gritty of running a church (counseling, management, musicology, etc.) rather than just mainlining great theological tomes. A Th.D. is similar to a Ph.D., except that it is usually assumed that you are a believer in whatever religion it is. (You can be an atheist and get a Ph.D. in religion.) Any of these can be good or bad experiences, and/or good or bad scholarship. You hear the same sort of complaints made about MBA programs, by the way. A lot of people have been criticizing the D.Min. on financial grounds (students go into massive debt for the sake of hard-to-get jobs that don’t pay very well).

    On who can call themselves “Dr.”, there are various traditions about this. Some say that the social use of “Dr.” should be reserved for M.D.’s! (In order to avoid confusion, perhaps?) I just give my name when I introduce myself, and am a fairly casual person anyway. In academia, it’s often assumed that everyone has a doctorate, so it’s not the custom to parade these things around.

  220. @ Daisy:

    I just used the “look inside” and it seems to indicate that the section you quoted is on p. 169, so that is the citation Autodidact was referencing. In which case, though Wilson didn’t come right out and say verbatim “have unprotected sex with your wife,” he did say the guy might not have to abstain and that the HIV virus was harmless. So it appears there are certain circumstances in which Wilson does indeed think it is safe to have unprotected sex with an HIV-positive person, because he believes the virus is “harmless.” After all, if it’s harmless, what do you need to protect yourself from?

  221. Nicholas wrote:

    @ May: I think that Wilson and other like-minded people view marriage as somewhat of a “cure” to pedophiles and other sex criminals.

    Just goes to show how ignorant they truly are. Why anyone would follow them is beyond me.

    WAKE UP!!!

  222. Steve wrote:

    My degree is a doctorate. I don’t introduce myself as Dr. I always say, “Hi, I’m Steve, glad to meet you.” I get called doctor but prefer my first name. That’s just my personal preference.

    Thank you, thank you, thank you! This (using Dr. titles) is one of my pet peeves. I’ve seen it for years as a way to lord it over others or to make sure people recognize the superiority of the Dr. You’d be my first choice of dentist for this reason alone.

  223. Hester wrote:

    I just used the “look inside” and it seems to indicate that the section you quoted is on p. 169,

    That’s weird, because when I looked it up, it was like on page 150-something or other (on Amazon’s book site). Maybe I’ll try again later.

  224. Daisy wrote:

    I saw that conversation.
    Props to Mirele for that.

    Sometimes I think I’m crazy for engaging people like the Baylys and their fan club, but then I think about that poor infant boy and I get sick. I do believe the promoters of Douglas Wilson need to be confronted with the bad fruit of their leader’s behavior.

  225. mirele wrote:

    Sometimes I think I’m crazy for engaging people like the Baylys and their fan club,

    It is crazy to try to engage them on their own turf.
    You can’t win even when you are right.
    However, sometimes it just must be done.
    Others over there need to see that there IS another way of thinking about these things than the thoughts allowed inside the bubble.
    They sure as heck aren’t going to come over here and discuss it.
    So thanks for being one of the ones to rattle their cages.
    They sooooo need to be rattled every now and again.
    And as you said, when an infant is involved, that bunch needs to be confronted concerning their unChristian attitudes and doctrines.

  226. Sooooo, I’m the Rachel who has dared to challenge Wilson and incurred the wrath of the bayly boys. It’s been an interesting week. But, here’s an interesting find from my research on Wilson. Based on his own explanations he should allow Katie to divorce Steve. I seriously doubt he will, but I’ll give the quotes as I explain.

    Wilson says in Reforming Marriage that there are three types of Biblical reasons for divorce:

    “The third class involves the violation of biblical laws that carried the death penalty.” (pg. 136)

    And if our modern laws do not give the death penalty for these crimes,

    “The Church should excommunicate, and a godly spouse may divorce.” (pg. 137)

    In Fidelity, Wilson says:

    “But when we are dealing with young children who are abused by adults (pederasty, child porn, etc.) the penalty for those guilty of the crime should be death.” (Kindle Locations 961-962).

    So, if (as it seems likely from the court reports) Steve has abused his baby, then according to Doug he should be put to death. Since the government does not give the death penalty for child abuse, then Katie should be free and encouraged to divorce him. Of course, we all know that that level of internal consistency is highly unlikely.

  227. Steve wrote:

    Julie Ann,
    Just read your blog on this topic. Thanks to you for covering it so well. I hope you, Deebs, and others will keep putting the truth about these creeps out there. Maybe one day people will start thinking for themselves and stop enabling them.
    In the meantime, do you have any ideas on how this insanity can be stopped?

    Thank you, Steve. It won’t be stopped. That’s the simple truth. However, this week I’ve had a few women contact me to tell me their stories. This is why I do it – -to help women get out of this horrific cult where men are gods and women are only to serve their purposes. If we can help to show women the truth about how God sees them, there’s a chance that she can help her children learn that God never meant for women to be treated this way. One woman can change the trajectory of her whole family. I am sure trying to undo that rotten teaching for my 5 boys.

  228. @ Rachel:

    Welcome, Rachel. I plan to write a post about your encounter with the Bayls and Doug. You got under the skin of BB and Doug Wilson and that is quite an accomplishment in my eyes!

    Doug seems to have remained quite quiet on this issue. That, as you know, is quite rare. He promised a response yesterday. It sure is taking him some time to formulate one of his highly intellectual™ answers to his willingness to put babies at risk for his theoretical theology. Well done!

    Keep you eyes on Moscow. There are a few things going on behind thee scenes which should prove interesting in the weeks to come.

    Once again, good job! I am so glad that you posted here.

  229. dee wrote:

    He promised a response yesterday. It sure is taking him some time to formulate one of his highly intellectual™ answers to his willingness to put babies at risk for his theoretical theology.

    You mean it’s taking him a long time to use his thesaurus?

    Rachel and Valerie are really stirring things up in the Reformed world as far as Patriarchy is concerned. I’ve been watching them for a while. Nice job, ladies!!! It’s much needed work.

  230. @ Rachel:

    Ditto on what Dee and Julie Anne said. I read that Bayly post going after you and Valerie. The reason you gals have to call out Piper and Wilson is because no one in their camp will. That's what motivates us as well.  Keep up the great work!

  231. Dee, Deb, Mirele, Julie Anne, Rachel, Valerie. Any one of these ladies outclasses the total of the Baylys and Wilson and Kamilla both intellectually and regarding discernment. It really is not a fair fight. 🙂

    Wild applause for all of you! I’m extra enthusiastic about this after attending our Free[loader] small group this evening where we just shared a great meal and laughed and cried and encouraged and counseled one another. Not a patriarch or Spiritual Authority in the house, but only brothers and sisters.

  232. Mara wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Kamilla Ludwig recently?
    If mirele is engaging Kamilla Ludwig I hope she has a strong stomach and logical marry-go-rounds don’t make her sick.

    I’ve been conversing with Kamilla over at Bayly Blog today. Is there something I should know? ;-0

  233. Patty in Massachusetts wrote:

    Tim Bayly has said vegetarians are going to hell. Really.

    If that’s true, I expect Tim Bayly will be in for a surprise once he reaches eternity. I attended a one-day retreat this summer in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. A husband-and-wife team run the retreat center. The wife, like her husband, is a lover of Jesus Christ; she’s also a vegetarian and a very good cook. I enjoyed my meat-free lunch that day even though I’m not a vegetarian. The thought of her going to hell simply for being a vegetarian is preposterous.

  234. Julie Anne wrote:

    You mean it’s taking him a long time to use his thesaurus?

    Either that or a lawyer advised him to not say anything for the time being.

  235. Hester wrote:

    @ Casey:
    That may or may not be the case (haven’t read the book), but IIRC Wilson recommended women have unprotected sex with their HIV-positive husbands, so he is denying the danger of HIV.

    Hester, do you have a link that bears this out about Wilson?

  236. GovPappy wrote:

    @ Patty in Massachusetts:
    I couldn’t make it through two paragraphs of that .

    If you make it to the end you get to:
    “Dr. Hobbs and Ms. Miller are women and women are forbidden by God’s Order of Creation and Word from teaching or exercising authority over men.”
    Apparently that means criticism also, I’m simply amazed. The name and appearance of the blog seems familiar to me so I must have run across it in the past but didn’t revisit it. Now I know why, planet weird.

  237. Muff Potter wrote:

    Gram3 wrote:
    Breaking covenant has severe consequences, and I think this may have played into Katie’s willingness to go along with marrying Sitler.
    Of course the consequences are unpleasant. The very real fear of being cast out from one’s tribe tops the list followed by a string of lesser punishments which ultimately lead to perdition because it shows that she was never ‘saved’ or ‘regenerated’ in the first place.

    This is spot on!

  238. Bill M: “Planet Weird”

    You’ve got that right. Those Bayly Bros. live in an alternate universe where women are born to serve men 24/7.

  239. Zla’od wrote:

    I’ve never been to Moscow, Idaho, but it sounds like a nice place. Basically a college town. Don’t make the mistake of assuming they’re all like this church.

    I’ve been there, must be more than a hundred times. And I can confirm that what you say is true. My first visit to Moscow was the most memorable, because there in high school gymnasium. I heard a man preach the Gospel in a way that hadn’t connected before. I never heard him again, but a few very uncomfortable weeks later, well, it was sort of like being born again. 🙂

  240. dee wrote:

    Keep you eyes on Moscow. There are a few things going on behind the scenes which should prove interesting in the weeks to come.

    What would be good to go on there would be some good Christian Muscovites sitting down with Wilson to help him protect that baby (and others) from the predator, as much as the church of Moscow is able. Foremost, I should think, would be Jim Wilson, seeing as Doug is ostensibly patriarchal, and would supposedly submit to him.
    And if Doug will not listen, a little friendly neighborhood Church Discipline would be in order.
    Alas, it’s as Nick said a few days ago about Leeman:
    “He means something totally different from the church as described in the new testament. Before he even asks the reader to consider how the church should operate, he’s already inserted the idea that “the church” is NOT the Church, but a legally separate, walled-off subgroup of believers that are split off from other believers locally – it doesn’t worship with those other believers, nor share Communion with them, and it need not work with them to reach the community nor preach the gospel with them nor even pray for their blessing and growth.”
    There being a lack of true “local” church to administer discipline, God has raised up a monstrous (in DW’s and BB’s eyes) regiment of women and men from “distant” lands with some Internet plumbing line and glue sticks,

  241. @ Debi Calvet:

    Debi, there’s a great book, “Influence: The Power of Persuasion” by Robert Cialdini, PH.D. that sheds a great deal of light on how other people control us. He has a section on “titles” in the chapter on Authority. He says this: ” Titles are simultaneously the most difficult and the easiest symbols of authority to acquire.”

    This issue of theological education and titles is relevant to this post in this way. Christians have surrendered the high ground because a man gets a theological education and a title. This man then commands that we submit. He’ll use one fragment of a Bible verse to claim authority to make this demand. My response to these people: “In a pig’s eye.”

    A human being should never submit any part of their spiritual life to another human being. I do listen and learn from others. And occasionally I make changes. Wilson and these other guys do lord it over others and it starts with the degree/title. I’ve heard in sermons and read in his books many times where Piper refers to his education, especially his studies in Europe. This is a subtle way of gaining control over people’s spiritual lives. I think Wilson and others throw in words like Scotland, Oxford, Calvin, Edwards, etc. for this very reason. It’s all about control and it starts with a degree/title.

    Bottom line for me is: Think for yourself. Take responsibility for yourself. And NEVER leave your children ALONE with ANYONE at a church. NEVER.

  242. Sir, you are definitely wrong about RC Sproul, Jr and I suspect also about Pastor Doug Wilson. Do you not know true repentance and its immediate forgiveness? Anyone who does not might want to. For as you vilify these men here on this blog, make sure you’re clear: God does not forgive men who are unrepentant, and that includes you.

    I know RC Jr. personally. I call him friend and he is among many good things a kind and just man, one we all would do well to learn from, and yes, even his most recent sins (which he has confessed). For anyone reading this: if you refuse to forgive you will be treated similarly by our sovereign Lord. May the Lord be with you. @ Gram3:

  243. Steve wrote:

    Bottom line for me is: Think for yourself. Take responsibility for yourself.

    Yes, and remember that the BB’s pronouncements about women exercising authority in the church are not true. These men live on a very small, self-contained planet; the Kingdom is so much bigger, so much more life-and grace-filled than that.
    And hasn’t it largely been women bloggers who have judged and brought down the likes of Mark Driscoll, Bill Gothard, etc?

  244. An open comment/suggestion to readers of this blog,

    I completely support the “prime directive” of the WWW, at least as I understand it, namely the protection of children, and more generally the victims of physical and spiritual abuse at the hands of people that are claiming they are doing it in the name of Christ.
    This abuse, the damage it causes to the individual, and to greater message of Christianity affects us all, not just members of the specific local body.
    I believe we all have a duty to stand up for these abuse victims.
    Further, I am deeply troubled that so much of the discussion of the abuse is being diverted into issues of authority, or lack thereof, of women. This is a smoke screen/straw man argument which diverts from the core terrible abuse which is occurring.
    Finally, I am a 55 year old man, a member of a local church, and while a professor at a major “Secular” University, I not only have a “terminal degree” I grant “terminal degrees”. I further have a undergraduate degree from a christian college with bible/theology training, as well as a HS diploma from a fundamentalist baptist school.
    Finally, I have had, and continue to have significant interest in the struggle between the sciences and Christianity… I would argue that this 40 decade long struggle qualifies me to be as much of a “theologian” as any of the “Neo-Cal” and YRR when it comes to this aspect of theology. (i.e. I have to struggle with the conflicts every day).
    HAving said all of this, as Paul said in the NT, all of this means NOTHING if we do not have love for others..
    I completely SUPPORT the work of the Dee’s, and I suggest that some of us “senior men” say continue to say this publically. Not that the Dee;s need it, just that it further pushes back on the straw men that these Neo-cals and YRR are trying to hide behind… They can not attack me for being a women!!

  245. BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    Statement from Doug Wilson:
    https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/an-open-letter-from-christ-church-on-steven-sitler.html

    He seems more concerned with his reputation and that of his church than anything else.

    There is also sin-leveling going on, towards the end, where he writes things like,

    “If God were to mark iniquities, no one could stand (Ps. 130:3Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). All of us would go down before the wrath of God, like grass before the scythe”

    The Bible teaches all people are sinners, that is so, but it doesn’t teach that all sins are equal, or that God regards all sins as equal in severity or evilness.

    To put it another way, no, Doug Wilson, I don’t molest children and have no desire to, so in that regard, no, I’m not as bad as Sitler.

    Please stop trying to convince me I am, or that the time I accidentally took a pen home from the bank with me (accidental theft) is any where in the same league of evil as molesting kids. I’m a sinner, but not a child-molesting sinner.

    Guys like this continue to muddle topics.
    Has Boz T. maybe written a post explaining for these guys things like wanting to extend grace to people may be fine and dandy, but it can be carried out incorrectly?

    Wilson also says in his post that Sitler is accompanied at all times in his church, when he shows up for services, by a “trained chaperone.” Sitler also had legal- approved chaperones watching him at home, and yet he abused his child anyway.

    Someone under Wilson’s post (a Kelley M. H.), who appears to be one of his church members, says she’s (or he’s) “Never heard of this man before yesterday.”

    That fact doesn’t exactly bode well for Wilson – all of his church members should know who Sitler is. They should not have to learn about this from a post by their pastor after the fact, and only because there was a hub bub raised online.

    Some of the other comments by Wilson fans or church members on that page are just as disturbing or naive. They really gloss over the nature of pedophilia.

    They are more concerned with defending Doug Wilson or certain types of theology than they are in assuring Sitler doesn’t harm any more kids, or in holding Wilson & Co. accountable for why this all happened to start with.

  246. John wrote:

    She went to Kirk?

    Yes, and Wilson was her pastor. I think others have posted links here to other sources for the story. If you google Jamin Wight, the first few pages of results will have more info.

  247. I alwaysAdina A. Hoshour wrote:

    It is always incumbent upon up to hear both sides of the story before drawing a conclusion, elsewise, we are considered biased in our conclusions.

    This blog always links to the information available. My opinion stands in light of the statement but I am giving people time to read it and think for themselves. And,as you will see, I even posted his entire statement here at TWW.

  248. @ Rachel:

    I am laughing so hard. You seem to be a bit like me. This is the perfect song to sum up Doug Wilson’s statement and his ministry. He always does it right and he is smarter than the rest of us slanders.

  249. Daisy wrote:

    Someone under Wilson’s post (a Kelley M. H.), who appears to be one of his church members, says she’s (or he’s) “Never heard of this man before yesterday.”

    I need to find this comment.

  250. Watching TWW wrote:

    if you refuse to forgive you will be treated similarly by our sovereign Lord. May the Lord be with you.

    Sproul Jr. and Doug Wilson have not committed any sins against me, at least directly. So there is nothing for me to forgive. These men hold themselves up as leaders of Jesus’ church, and they are to be held to a higher standard than the one to which they hold the flock. Pastors and elders are to be examples to the flock and not lords over the flock. These men have not been examples, and they have lorded it over the flock. May God forgive all of our sins, and may these men either resign from the ministry or be deposed by others from ministry, since they have disqualified themselves. That is what the Bible teaches, and Reformational Christians believe in Sola Scriptura. I am a grandmother and, hence, not a sir. You may therefore disregard everything I have just written. May God extend his grace to all of us.

  251. Jeffrey wrote:

    Further, I am deeply troubled that so much of the discussion of the abuse is being diverted into issues of authority, or lack thereof, of women. This is a smoke screen/straw man argument which diverts from the core terrible abuse which is occurring.

    I disagree a bit. One of the reasons this is a pertinent issue is that a normal woman would not have walked into a marriage with a known pedophile to begin with.

    The sort of teachings guys like Wilson promote about marriage and sex can lead to the very types of situations we’re seeing here.

    Gender complementarianism and Christian patriarchy are codependency with a biblical veneer, and as such, can condition women raised under these beliefs to have traits that make them very, very attractive to con artists, users, and abusive people.

    These types of women become conditioned to be willing victims in their own abuse and are also told the abuse is their fault, or that they deserved it for not being submissive enough, or not- whatever- enough.

    I believe this is one major reason why Katie married the pedo to start with (also women are heavily pressured in complementarian and patriarchal churches to marry and pro-create, and to do so fast, fast, fast; singleness and being childless are taught to be wrong or shameful, so Katie was in a hurry to get married),
    and it’s partly why she doesn’t take her infant son and leave the sham of a marriage.

  252. dee wrote:

    My opinion stands in light of the statement

    If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard a church use Proverbs 18:17 in their defense, my family would be out of debt by now.

  253. dee wrote:

    I need to find this comment.

    I’ll paste in her (his?) post, the line is towards the end; also, here is the URL to the specific comment:
    https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/an-open-letter-from-christ-church-on-steven-sitler.html#comment-2238941734

    The post:
    ——————

    [comment by]Kelly M. Haggar

    “Moreover, if everything is on the table, we do not believe the church has the authority to prohibit or ‘not allow’ a lawful marriage.” This statement will cause Pastor Doug problems.

    “the woman caught in adultery” One tradition holds that what Jesus was writing in the dust was a sin of each man in the crowd.

    Our Wesley said something like “Church is the place where one beggar tells another beggar where the bread is.”

    “At the same time, since his conviction, in accordance with the decision of the court and in accordance with an additional and separate determination by the session of Christ Church, Steven has never been to our worship service unaccompanied by a trained chaperone.”

    If a church – – or anyone/any thing else – – could pick and choose which parts of which court orders were to be obeyed . . . but haven’t we just beat that poor to death so many times lately?

    Never heard of this man before yesterday; out the door for early service. But I will offer his name in the “Healing” call.

  254. @ Jeffrey:
    Thank you for your supportive and kind comment. You made me smile this morning.

    I think the reason we divert into the side issues is due to a desire to see if there are certain doctrines that, when promoted, lead to abuse. I have a friend who is a world class pathologist. He recently told me that he loves to figure out what happened to a person that led to their demise. He said it is like solving a mystery and he has given up many lucrative offers in order to continue doing what he loves best-figuring things out.

    Also, some who have left the church have done so because of these side issues. One woman was told she could not speak in a church meeting because she was a woman. Yet, she had some info that might have led to a pedophile situation being exposed within the church.

    As you probably know, science and creation is a favorite topic of mine. I am so pleased you are interested in delving into it.

    Finally, I was reading your comment before I had finished my first cup of coffee. I misread what you wrote and though you said you were terminal. I actually started to write a response in which I was going to ask how we could help you. I am so glad that you are NOT terminal and you are alive and kicking.

  255. @ Jeffrey:
    PS-If you ever have an interest in writing a post which can be done anonymously if you would like, please drop me an email at dee@thewartburgwatch.

  256. John wrote:

    She went to Kirk?

    I wish Wilson had chosen some other folksy foreignish word for his church. Every time I see the word “Kirk,” I have visualize William Shatner in his Starfleet uniform. Seriously, I do.

    I guess I should be glad he doesn’t call his group “The First Kirk of Lord Vader.”

  257. Janey wrote:

    Normally Child Protective Services would remove the child. Why hasn’t this happened?

    Doug Wilson has used this decision to defend his actions. Read the posted response.

  258. @ Daisy:

    Wilson also says in his post that Sitler is accompanied at all times in his church, when he shows up for services, by a “trained chaperone.” Sitler also had legal- approved chaperones watching him at home, and yet he abused his child anyway.

    Yep. And the chaperons did not disclose to authorities when Sitler admitted his lapses. Even the psychologist failed to do so. How’s that chaperon thingy working for them?

  259. @ dee:

    I reread her comment. She says she’s “out the door to early service,” but does not say where she attends church.

    It would not be a surprise, though, if Wilson and elders are not informing “all” congregants about Sitler’s probation and attendance at their church. In the past, he has informed “heads of households.” I don’t know what that means, or how they make sure every person in the church is aware of Sitler.

  260. @ Bridget:
    In this type of church, only the head of the household, typically the father or husband, has any vote or any “need to know” because the HOH is considered responsible for his household. They have HOH meetings instead of congregational meetings because the HOH is considered the federal head of his family.

  261. Lori wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “The man Penetrates! Colonizes! Conquers! Plants!
    The woman lies back and Accepts!”
    — Doug Wilson, ManaGAWD

    Ugh! I may just lose a little of my breakfast.

    Because that sounds like the mantra of a Rapist.

  262. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Bridget:
    In this type of church, only the head of the household, typically the father or husband, has any vote or any “need to know” because the HOH is considered responsible for his household. They have HOH meetings instead of congregational meetings because the HOH is considered the federal head of his family.

    Ancient (i.e. PAGAN) Rome.
    The Paterfamilias (male patriarch) is the only “human being” in the household. All others — wives, children, slaves, animals, real estate — are his personal property, nothing more.

  263. Patty in Massachusetts wrote:

    Yes, and remember that the BB’s pronouncements about women exercising authority in the church are not true. These men live on a very small, self-contained planet…

    John Norman’s Gor?

  264. Watching TWW wrote:

    For anyone reading this: if you refuse to forgive you will be treated similarly by our sovereign Lord. May the Lord be with you. @ Gram3:

    Excellent plausibly-deniable threat of Hellfire there, WTWW.

    Will you get a special commendation at Kirk?

  265. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Will you get a special commendation at Kirk?

    I have no idea if WTWW is a member of the Kirk or of Sproul Jr.’s congregation, but I’m sure I’ve already had some imprecatory prayers prayed down on me by some Recons/Federal Visionists. I trust in Jesus.

  266. Patty in Massachusetts wrote:

    Darlene wrote:
    I read the post. They are the Poster Child for Patriarchy. It seems folks who don’t subscribe to their brand are in danger of going to hell. At least they’re out front about it.
    Tim Bayly has said vegetarians are going to hell. Really.

    What would God ever do on J-Day without Tim “Wormtongue” Bayly whispering in His ear to tell Him who is REALLY Saved and who is not?

    “Me Sheep! Him Goat! Him Goat! Him Goat! Him Goat! Him Goat! Him Goat! Him Goat! …”

  267. Daisy,
    I actually, generally agree with you, and I probably was not as clear as I should have been. The defenders of abuse are who I am referring to… They are “dismissing” the work of WW by saying it is run by women! I am an “old man” , and if I want to start playing “authority cards”, I could lay them out with the best of them.. Plus, in my Presbyterian church, we believe in the “priesthood of the believer” and my pastor, Every Sunday, says were are ALL ministers. If I was hung up on authority, like so many NeoCal, and YRRs are, I could probably get some sort of “lay pastor” position… And, I would say “so what!” since, I think all of this authority stuff of these NeoCal and YRR’s is just some sort of power trip…

    The point is, I agree with the work of WW standing up against physical and spiritual abuse. And, it is clear to me that these NeoCals and YRR’s are trying to divert their abuses with power trips…. Including putting women down, and all of pew peons…

    @ Daisy:

  268. Gram3 wrote:

    I have no idea if WTWW is a member of the Kirk or of Sproul Jr.’s congregation, but I’m sure I’ve already had some imprecatory prayers prayed down on me by some Recons/Federal Visionists.

    Imprecatory Prayers(TM) as in Putting a Hex on you?

    “OH GREAT CHEMOSH! O GREAT BAAL! BRING DEATH AND DESTRUCTION DOWN ON THESE MY ENEMIES!”
    — some old Cecil B DeMille Bible Epic of the Fifties

    Summoning, Binding, and Giving Kill Orders to their “Friend on the Other Side”?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZAY-78zhmw

  269. @ Gram3:

    I had the general meaning, though I find that every Church (even every family) has a bit of a different meaning as to what “head of household” means.

  270. P.S. It would be interesting to see how the WW would have been received if it were run by a bunch of old men scientist/professors/professionals. Given how us scientist are treated by many fundamentalist and evangelicals, they would probably dismiss us as a “compromiser” etc…. Believe me, I have heard that more than once!!

  271. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    Daisy,
    I actually, generally agree with you,

    I have to admit, I was initially confuse by you comment but kept reading and realized your agreement.

    You have to extend grace to some of us.
    We are war weary of some men coming in and telling us what we, lowly women, are supposed to think, feel, and how we are to worship God and serve men.

    Btw, thanks for your words of encouragement and clarification.

  272. Wow – What a stinkin mess…

    Pastors? Marrying? Two people?

    Where, the hell is that found in the Bible?

    There is NO Crying in baseball…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M8szlSa-8o

    There is NO Crying in baseball…

    And there are NO Pastors marrying anyone in the Bible…

    And there are NO Disciples of Jesus with the “Title” pastor in the Bible…

    Wow – What a stinkin mess…

    Jer 22:22
    The *wind shall eat up “ALL thy pastors,” (*wind = ruwach = breath, spirit)
    and thy lovers shall go into captivity:
    surely then shalt thou be ashamed
    and confounded for all thy wickedness.

  273. Watching TWW wrote:

    I know RC Jr. personally. I call him friend and he is among many good things a kind and just man

    I hear that Sprouyl spanked his wife. Source: http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/01/03/the-christian-patriarchy-movements-dark-secret-of-wife-spanking/

    Is it kind to hit your wife when you think she did wrong?
    Is it just to hit your wife when you think she did wrong?

    Sproul is the co-writer of the “tenets of Biblical patriarchy”. I have read dozens of stories of women and children traumatized, emotionally handicapped, left uneducated and incapable of coping with life outside the parental home, abused and having no recourse as the abusing father is called their authority to whom they should submit. This is the fruit of those tenets.

    Were those tenets kind to women and children?
    Were those tenets just to women and children?

  274. @ dee:
    Dee, I first read it the way you did – that he had abused the child. But after reading Huskey’s comments I looked at it again. It seems possible to me that, as a serial pedophile, Sitler could have merely held the child in his arms and that resulted in sexual stimulation for him. That’s gross & disgusting, but it may not have, legally, been abuse. (If I were judge, I’d want to treat this the same as actual abuse, but I don’t know what Idaho law allows.) That might explain the basis for Huskey’s comments & maybe for why the judge seems to be moving so cautiously, although, again, I don’t know. (Also, I’m not saying I agree with that. Just looking for how the situation came to be the way it appears to be.)

  275. Further PS

    We just had a service in my church run by our group of 13 that spent a week in Honduras last month to build houses for the poor through a mission group/wholistic ministry in Honduras . I am struck by how we are trying to engage and work with people in Honduras that need and want help; in contrast so much of WW is dealing with hurting people that have been victimized BY the church…… Something seems off here…

  276. @ Xianatty:
    I think you may be correct in your thoughts. The only thing that bothers me is that the prosecutor spoke specifically of actions.

  277. Xianatty wrote:

    @ dee:
    Dee, I first read it the way you did – that he had abused the child. But after reading Huskey’s comments I looked at it again. It seems possible to me that, as a serial pedophile, Sitler could have merely held the child in his arms and that resulted in sexual stimulation for him. That’s gross & disgusting, but it may not have, legally, been abuse. (If I were judge, I’d want to treat this the same as actual abuse, but I don’t know what Idaho law allows.) That might explain the basis for Huskey’s comments & maybe for why the judge seems to be moving so cautiously, although, again, I don’t know. (Also, I’m not saying I agree with that. Just looking for how the situation came to be the way it appears to be.)

    Well, babies are warm and snuggly, so if his brain is wired to respond inappropriately to such stimuli, it could well be. Which, tragically for all involved, means he can never be safe around his own child (at least until the child turns 18, if his sentence accurately reflects his impact on the public safety).

    I mean, there’s always aversion therapy (is that still a viable treatment or has it been disproven?), but the outcome of that would be that he wouldn’t want to hold his own baby/growing child at all.

    If he were serious about wanting to have a family, with his bent, he would shy away from any physical contact with his own children, as well as anyone else’s. He would be more rigorous at policing himself than any chaperon.

    It doesn’t sound as if he’s serious. The chaperon program sounds like a farce.

    But then, I’m not sure Wilson and his ilk put any credence in psychology.

  278. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    P.S. It would be interesting to see how the WW would have been received if it were run by a bunch of old men scientist/professors/professionals. Given how us scientist are treated by many fundamentalist and evangelicals, they would probably dismiss us as a “compromiser” etc…. Believe me, I have heard that more than once!!

    Think if the WW was run by Piper or Mahaney and printed the same criticism. What would Wilson or the Bayly brothers think, then?

    But no, not possible, they are all in it together. Whether conniving, or brainwashed, I can’t see any of them breaking ranks.

  279. What about the child? I can not even comprehend growing up, and later learning (if it comes to this) that my father gets sexually turned on by holding me!!

    refugee wrote:

    Xianatty wrote:
    @ dee:
    Dee, I first read it the way you did – that he had abused the child. But after reading Huskey’s comments I looked at it again. It seems possible to me that, as a serial pedophile, Sitler could have merely held the child in his arms and that resulted in sexual stimulation for him. That’s gross & disgusting, but it may not have, legally, been abuse. (If I were judge, I’d want to treat this the same as actual abuse, but I don’t know what Idaho law allows.) That might explain the basis for Huskey’s comments & maybe for why the judge seems to be moving so cautiously, although, again, I don’t know. (Also, I’m not saying I agree with that. Just looking for how the situation came to be the way it appears to be.)
    Well, babies are warm and snuggly, so if his brain is wired to respond inappropriately to such stimuli, it could well be. Which, tragically for all involved, means he can never be safe around his own child (at least until the child turns 18, if his sentence accurately reflects his impact on the public safety).
    I mean, there’s always aversion therapy (is that still a viable treatment or has it been disproven?), but the outcome of that would be that he wouldn’t want to hold his own baby/growing child at all.
    If he were serious about wanting to have a family, with his bent, he would shy away from any physical contact with his own children, as well as anyone else’s. He would be more rigorous at policing himself than any chaperon.
    It doesn’t sound as if he’s serious. The chaperon program sounds like a farce.
    But then, I’m not sure Wilson and his ilk put any credence in psychology.

  280. Deb wrote:

    Nicholas wrote:
    @ May: I think that Wilson and other like-minded people view marriage as somewhat of a “cure” to pedophiles and other sex criminals.

    Just goes to show how ignorant they truly are. Why anyone would follow them is beyond me.

    WAKE UP!!!

    Well, sexual deviancy is all due to not having relations inside a monogamous marriage, didn’t you know? Once you set up a fulfilling, loving, god-honoring, properly structured (cf. Wilson on the man’s vs the woman’s role) relationship, everything’s hunky-dory.

    …wait. You have anecdotal evidence that it’s not?

    You mean, there are child molesters, rapists, adulterers, porn addicts who are *in* church-blessed marriages?

    It must be all the wife’s fault. (Let herself go, wasn’t sexually available at all and any hours, etc.)

  281. Bill M wrote:

    GovPappy wrote:
    @ Patty in Massachusetts:
    I couldn’t make it through two paragraphs of that .

    If you make it to the end you get to:
    “Dr. Hobbs and Ms. Miller are women and women are forbidden by God’s Order of Creation and Word from teaching or exercising authority over men.”
    Apparently that means criticism also, I’m simply amazed. The name and appearance of the blog seems familiar to me so I must have run across it in the past but didn’t revisit it. Now I know why, planet weird.

    Amazingly enough, in person Tim Bayly is warm, engaging, encouraging, thoughtful. Thus the fierceness of his defenders when they perceive someone is picking on him.

  282. hoipolloi wrote:

    First time commenter here. Thank you in advance for allowing me to participate.
    Looks like Doug Wilson will be taking his time to issue a statement; he posted this comment on his blog yesterday: “The Christ Church session is going to be issuing a statement that addresses all the relevant facts in a week or so. In the meantime, Prov. 18:17.” (http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/benedict-and-beza-options.html#comment-2236494443):

    Welcome, from someone who has been lurking/commenting here for a year or two. (The “or two” is probably lurking. I don’t remember exactly when I gathered enough courage to jump in.)

    Didn’t quite take them (him) a week, after all. Not sure what the strategy is: Was it “wait a week and let the controversy die down so that fewer people will notice and attack”? Or was it “post the response on Sunday when fewer people will notice and attack”?

  283. Watching TWW wrote:

    Sir, you are definitely wrong about RC Sproul, Jr and I suspect also about Pastor Doug Wilson. Do you not know true repentance and its immediate forgiveness? Anyone who does not might want to. For as you vilify these men here on this blog, make sure you’re clear: God does not forgive men who are unrepentant, and that includes you.
    I know RC Jr. personally. I call him friend and he is among many good things a kind and just man, one we all would do well to learn from, and yes, even his most recent sins (which he has confessed). For anyone reading this: if you refuse to forgive you will be treated similarly by our sovereign Lord. May the Lord be with you. @ Gram3:

    R.C. Sproul, Jr. also can have a very pleasant outer affect. The last time I spoke with him (when he was a guest speaker at our former church), he was quiet, seemed discouraged and tired, and stirred my natural empathy and pity.

    Giving the appearance of being a kind and thoughtful person (he very well may be a good and kind friend) does not make his theology sound.

    His teaching that a man should be “prophet, priest and king” in his home, for example. Does that make the wife “prophetess, priestess, and queen”? No, not really. But that’s not even the main point. The main point is that Jesus is Prophet, Priest, and King. We are a part of the priesthood of believers, grafted in, adopted children, etc. Some are given the gift of prophecy, per Paul, but I don’t recall anything in the NT that makes us kings. I could be wrong, of course. That might be the main difference between me and Sproul, Jr., Wilson, Leithart, Bayly, etc.

  284. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    The point is, I agree with the work of WW standing up against physical and spiritual abuse. And, it is clear to me that these NeoCals and YRR’s are trying to divert their abuses with power trips…. Including putting women down, and all of pew peons…

    Oh, I get you. Okay. 🙂

    My only quibble: I’m trying to win converts from the “Pew Peon” phrase over to Pew Potato. I think I already converted HUG on that one.

  285. Jeffrey wrote:

    I suggest that some of us “senior men” say continue to say this publically. Not that the Dee;s need it, just that it further pushes back on the straw men that these Neo-cals and YRR are trying to hide behind… They can not attack me for being a women!!

    Amen. Because there are some men caught up in this heresy, who are at present only able to listen to, and give credence to, the testimony of other men. Hopefully they will learn to hear the voices of women as well without immediately discounting the message because of the nature of the messenger. Someday.

  286. Adina A. Hoshour wrote:

    It is always incumbent upon up to hear both sides of the story before drawing a conclusion, elsewise, we are considered biased in our conclusions. Doug Wilson responds:
    https://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/an-open-letter-from-christ-church-on-steven-sitler.html

    Read it. I was waiting to hear his side of the story, actually, but until it came I was constrained to make observations based on what was already available.

    I have read his side of the story and found his arguments wanting. Yes, all this has come about due to Sitler’s original actions. Yes, it is possible that he was/is repentant. His actions have consequences, however, and in his case, the consequences involve not having contact with children for the rest of his life, for the protection of the children.

    In other words, he made his bed. Now he has to lie in it. He can be repentant, the members of his church can be supportive, welcoming, can pray for him, can share their lives with him (so long as he is kept from contact with children). But they ought not to be supporting a situation where he fathers children. For his sake: He is supposed to avoid contact with children! He should not have contact with even his own children until they reach the age of 18!!!! What kind of family life is Wilson supporting? A family where a father can never hold and comfort his little child?

    He would have been better (as Paul himself supported in one of his epistles) never to marry.

    That would have been loving support, on the part of Wilson and the church.

  287. @ John:
    There’s an excellent article on Jamin Wight on Foedero Schism, but some of the links are broken. I tracked down one of the links to Southern Poverty Law Center which talks about Natalie’s father being threatened with discipline.

    The father of the girl in the second incident told the Intelligence Report that church officials tried to keep that quiet as well. At one point, he said, they threatened to bring him under church discipline for failing to protect his daughter. “It would be like me getting robbed and the police coming over and arresting me because I didn’t have five locks on the door, only one,” he said. “It was just bizarre.”

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2006/idaho-pastor-hard-liner-exception-or-two

  288. Nicholas wrote:

    Jared Moore is unhappy that Dr. Anthony Bradley tweeted this article: https://twitter.com/jaredhmoore/status/640400759524192256

    Guess he didn’t learn his lesson very well. Jared is a second-tier Gospel Glitterati who infamously posted approvingly about Doug Wilson’s penetrate-conquer-plant-colonize view of marital intimacy (I never can remember the proper order of operations there.) Jared is young and confused and blinded by his faith in the virtue of patriarchy. He was swarmed by the Jezebels and defended by the fanboys. So he took down the post.

  289. @ refugee:
    I agree. He’s likely not safe around any kids, ever, including his own. I also agree that if he were serious about his repentance he would agree to those terms.

  290. @ Nicholas:
    Thank you. I briefly skimmed through them earlier. I think how Wilson handled the Wight situation proves he’s not as innocent as he would like us to believe from his current statement. He wields enormous control over what happens in the lives of his congregants.

  291. @ Jeffrey Chalmers:
    I agree. The trauma to the child upon learning about his father is likely to be horrific. It may be that the judge, in criminal court, has no jurisdiction over the child and can only deal with Sitler himself. One of the news reports cited in this post says Sitler has been removed from the home, at least until further hearings can be had.

  292. Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:

    What about the child? I can not even comprehend growing up, and later learning (if it comes to this) that my father gets sexually turned on by holding me!!

    This this this this this this this! Even if Sitler didn’t actually abuse the child, merely having sexual thoughts is giving me the creeps.

  293. @ dee:
    It may be that the “action” was a solitary activity engaged in with thoughts of the child. Gross and scary! (This is basically what he confessed to years ago, per documents posted online, when the light in a neighbor’s open window caused him to get his binoculars out and engage in the solitary activity.)

    Here’s a link to the court docket in Sitler’s case. You may have to re-do the search. It looks like the next hearing is set for 9/8. https://www.idcourts.us/repository/caseHistory.do?schema=LATAH&county=Latah&roaDetail=yes&partySequence=73537&displayName=Sitler%2C+Steven+James

  294. Check out the comments from “Beelzedub” on Wilson’s Mablog! Priceless! Can’t even keep up with them.

  295. I recall an older couple in our church that I highly admired. They were retired but served the church faithfully. He had been an engineer and she had taught architecture at the university. She served on the mission board and made sure the missioaries received the money promised to them. They had a daughter who with her husband were Wycliff Bible translators. She told me the following story.

    One day she was walking toward the church when coming towards her was a young man seeking leadership in the church. He had been raised Mormon and claimed to be born again and was deeply into Gothardism. She said “Hi” and He said “Do you know what’s wrong with you?” Amused she said “No what’s that?” He replied “you are not a submissive wife and you are not submissive to your husband. She replied “In our home we are submissive to the Lord Jesus Christ and that seems to take care of all the problems.”
    500 years since the start of the reformation.. Lord have mercy on us and protect us from the protestant newly self appointed popes.

  296. @ Robin:
    Robin,

    I love your idea on starting “Change.org petition could be started that demands the solution most likely to protect the baby and send Sitler to jail.” I would love it to go viral.

  297. @ Xianatty:
    Thank you for always trying to help me out. I appreciate your wisdom and insight. I look forward to keeping updated and plan to run these things past you. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

  298. Dave A A wrote:

    There being a lack of true “local” church to administer discipline, God has raised up a monstrous (in DW’s and BB’s eyes) regiment of women and men from “distant” lands

    Wilson wrote: “Those who slanderously diagnose our pastoral competence from afar (without bothering to check their facts) do not know anything about how we have taught him, prayed with him, admonished him, rebuked him, checked on his stories, and held him accountable.”
    The problem is, Doug is submitted to no one close at hand in the Palouse to rightly diagnose his pastoral competence, pray with him, admonish him, rebuke him, check on his stories, and hold him accountable. He’s only *accountable* to those who are under his *authority*. In addition to his father and his brother, who may have given up long ago, Doug Busby of the Palouse EFC would be in a position to fill this role, since they were the mother church of what Doug turned into the Kirk.

  299. @ CB:
    Wait until you see a post I want to do about a woman who got mixed up with a guy on Christian Mingle. It has this same sort of feeling. I hope to get it up within the next 2 weeks.

  300. @ Dave A A:
    I’ve been following off and on. It is getting heated. Kamila just blocked me and she complains about all the site who have blocked her. I have not.

  301. @ Gail:
    I would love to sign something like that. However, if truth be told, I am already sticking my neck out with this story and the coming followup. It would be great if a few readers could get something like that going.

  302. mirele wrote:

    Jeffrey Chalmers wrote:
    What about the child? I can not even comprehend growing up, and later learning (if it comes to this) that my father gets sexually turned on by holding me!!
    This this this this this this this! Even if Sitler didn’t actually abuse the child, merely having sexual thoughts is giving me the creeps.

    If you read Douglas Wilson’s public response to all of this, it is all about defending himself/church…… If I were in his shoes, I would have trouble living with myself knowing that I officiated and approved of the marriage that brought a child into this world that has a father that admits he gets sexual fantasies out of his infant son. Unless this gets addressed properly, another generation of abuse is coming..

  303. Dave A A wrote:

    Check out the comments from “Beelzedub” on Wilson’s Mablog! Priceless! Can’t even keep up with them.

    I just went there to read the comments, and came smack up against this one:
    But which of our earthly fathers is perfect?
    I know it’s only a partial quote, not the entire comment, but I think I got the gist. Sick. I’m physically ill.

  304. I’m looking at the docket for Steven Sitler. There’s a lot of stuff in 2005, 2006 and 2007, a total of 191 entries on the docket. Then there are a total of nine items between 2008 and the end of 2014. It looks like everything was going along just fine until December 22, 2014, starting with a request for a bench warrant. Since then, there have been 68 separate entries into the docket. Something is definitely up.

  305. mirele wrote:

    I’m looking at the docket for Steven Sitler. There’s a lot of stuff in 2005, 2006 and 2007, a total of 191 entries on the docket. Then there are a total of nine items between 2008 and the end of 2014. It looks like everything was going along just fine until December 22, 2014, starting with a request for a bench warrant. Since then, there have been 68 separate entries into the docket. Something is definitely up.

    When was his son born?

  306. @ mirele:
    p.s. Mirele, I commend your courage and tenacity, engaging the commenters on Wilson’s blog. I would have thrown up a dozen times over, already, had I been in your shoes. I could only read in small batches, and now I’ve given up completely.

    Thank you for engaging these blind guides and followers. Who knows? The Lord may be able to use your words to reach someone with private doubts, to help them break away from this destructive culture.

  307. Xianatty wrote:

    It may be that the judge, in criminal court, has no jurisdiction over the child and can only deal with Sitler himself.

    I think this is where we non-attorneys get confused, speaking for myself. I don’t understand if or how the criminal courts would act with the child welfare authorities. Do they? Is this a matter of a judge being constrained by the laws? I would appreciate any legal insight into this mess.

  308. Dave A A wrote:

    Doug is submitted to no one close at hand

    I agree with this except for the “close at hand.” 🙂 The problem Wilson is trying to distract us from is the *fact* that he, at the very least, approved of a marriage between a convicted multiple-offense pedophile. How is that justifiable on any grounds by any sane individual and especially by a pastor who claims to have authority over this young woman and supposedly is the one protecting her interests? This aspect reminds me of the Karen Hinkley case at The Village where there are just some really stinky facts that cannot be febreezed away with Wilson’s rhetoric.

  309. Darlene wrote:

    I read the post. They are the Poster Child for Patriarchy. It seems folks who don’t subscribe to their brand are in danger of going to hell. At least their out front about it.

    Part of Kamilla Lidwig’s response to Darlene: “Christianity is undeniably a patriarchal religion. If it ceases to be patriarchal, it ceases to be Christian.”
    Barf.

  310. @ mirele:
    Thank you for all you do, including taking on Doug Wilson and his supporters. It is not an easy task and you certainly show patriarchs that women are powerful when they speak.

  311. Nancy2 wrote:

    Christianity is undeniably a patriarchal religion. If it ceases to be patriarchal, it ceases to be Christian.”

    I have tried to be nice to her through the years. Once or twice we actually had a pleasant exchange. Now, she has done gone and blocked me. This is the woman who has been blocked by just about every blogger except for Wilson, Bayly and a couple of BFFs.

    After all these years of trying to be friendly, today she chose to block me. I still don’t know what I did. I know she blocked mirele as well. However, she will not be blocked by me or this blog unless she gets out of hand. I rarely block people on twitter.

    The main reason I do is to cut down on my Twitter feed. There is a wonderful child abuse advocate in England who started to follow me. I love his Tweets and I learn so much from hi,. However, he has a gazillion followers and I get all of them along with him.

    So, I started blocking a bunch of people just so i could find the tweets I do follow. I wish there was a way to block someone with an emoji that expressed “I am not blocking you for any reason but I can’t keep up with the gazillion tweets,

  312. @ Nancy2:
    Kamilla is a tough cookie. She does not agree with most anybody except for Doug Wilson, the Bayly bros, Sarah Flashing, etc.

    Do you know The Gospel Coalition blocked her a long time ago. She goes after them because they are too liberal, I think? She is also blocked on a bunch of other blogs because she is an attack dog.I think she gets that from those she admires and follows.

    I once had a nice exchange of emails with her. I was really trying to get to know her so I could figure out what makes her tick. I really thought I was getting somewhere. Out of the blue, without any explanation, she stopped the conversation. I tried.

  313. 1. I noticed the statement had not a word about Katie. I hope she is getting some sort of competent pastoral care.

    2. “This entire avalanche is his responsibility.” It’s all Steven’s fault ; pastor Wilson and the CC elders had nothing to do with it.

    3. As far as Judge Stegner’s alleged quote about marriage being the best thing possible for Sitler, I might have agreed IF—both of them had voluntarily and freely gotten sterilized before the wedding. Given the groom’s history, praying for the blessing of children even as he cannot be around anyone else’s kids, shows a staggering naivety at best.

    Jesus once taught that if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off, or if your eye does the same to gouge it out. It is better to enter heaven maimed, than hell intact. I’m not recommending castration, but I do think that forgoing parenthood would have been a valid application of those verses, not to mention an excellent fruit of repentance.

  314. NJ wrote:

    1. I noticed the statement had not a word about Katie. I hope she is getting some sort of competent pastoral care.

    Other than “The Woman Lies Back and Accepts”?

  315. refugee wrote:

    What kind of family life is Wilson supporting? A family where a father can never hold and comfort his little child?

    A family where the father is Paterfamilas and all others are the Paterfamilias’ personal PROPERTY (including full sexual rights — “PENETRATE! COLONIZE! CONQUER! PLANT!”).

    And where Pastor of the Kirk is Paterfamilias of Paterfamiliai.

  316. refugee wrote:

    It must be all the wife’s fault. (Let herself go, wasn’t sexually available at all and any hours, etc.)

    In other words, she wasn’t a character in pornography.

    Because in pornography the woman is always HAWT, always available 24/7, and exists only to fulfill the Urges in the Man’s Areas, whatever his kink.

  317. refugee wrote:

    But then, I’m not sure Wilson and his ilk put any credence in psychology.

    Probably exactly as much as L Ron Hubbard.

  318. @ Leila:
    She needs to repent then. 🙂 Or maybe she’s another one of those “do as I say and not as I do” types.

  319. dee wrote:

    So, I started blocking a bunch of people just so i could find the tweets I do follow. I wish there was a way to block someone with an emoji that expressed “I am not blocking you for any reason but I can’t keep up with the gazillion tweets,

    You can mute tweets. That way you don’t have to block them.

    Muting Users on Twitter | Twitter Help Center
    https://support.twitter.com/articles/20171399

  320. @ dee:

    In twitter you can do lists to keep track of tweets of a subset of people you follow or don’t follow.

    Also a given user tweets all show up on their twitter page.

    I use both to catch up on some people I am interested in.

    Of course now you can search tweets via Google.

    🙂

  321. @ dee:

    When using a notebook or desktop I would also use tweetdeck to show a bunch of lists in columns that are actively updated. I have stopped doing that since I now mostly use tablets and phones.

  322. I’ve been tweeting/debating with Pastor Jared Moore about this Wilson/Sitler case (and winning) and he asked me if I would pass along this comment from him (hahahaha):

    Would you plz tell Gram3 at TWW Wilson post that I didn’t post approvingly of Wilson’s colonize article… I would comment, but they’re like a pack of hyenas over there.

    (JA is counting down until someone’s comment entices him to comment on his own.)

  323. Sorry, I should have referenced Gram3’s comment with Jared’s comment above:

    Guess he didn’t learn his lesson very well. Jared is a second-tier Gospel Glitterati who infamously posted approvingly about Doug Wilson’s penetrate-conquer-plant-colonize view of marital intimacy (I never can remember the proper order of operations there.) Jared is young and confused and blinded by his faith in the virtue of patriarchy. He was swarmed by the Jezebels and defended by the fanboys. So he took down the post.

  324. Mirele, Julie Anne, and Boz are doing a FANTASTIC job on the tweets in this debate. Mirele v. Bayleys & Kamilla, etc.

  325. @ Julie Anne:
    I don’t do Twitter and have missed all the passive-aggressive fun! Gramp3 read this and started laughing like a hyena and promptly informed me that I had broken into the Twitterverse! I’m so honored. Since Jared reads here, though is not manly enough to submit a comment (oops, did I just use the S word WRT a male *and* an ordained officer in Christ’s church?), here’s a little HyenaGram for Jared:

    Dear Jared, if you think that you did not post a blog approving of Wilson’s PCCP post, then all you have to do is re-post it along with the comment threads from *both* posts. Why did you take them down? I have reading comprehension that has been documented to be at least as high as the average Ph.D./PhD who posts at TgC, so that will not be a problem, despite what you and your defenders say is the problem with PCCP. I may just look in my files to see if I have a copy printed out of your posts. Also, if you want to be a Leader, and Elder, or a Pastor, why don’t you minister to all the hyenas over here? Where is your discernment? Do you really want to defend Wilson all over again about marrying a pedophile to a young woman? Your fierce loyalty to the cause of patriarchy will get you promoted where the Gospel Glitterati reign, but is that where your treasure is? Consider this a bit of Titus 2ing.

    Blessings,
    Gram3

  326. Bridget wrote:

    @ Gram3:
    Jared Moore is not Jarred Wilson. I think you have your Jared’s mixed up again, Gram3.

    I believe you are right! My apologies to Jared Moore. Maybe he will pass the note along to Jared Wilson, no relation to Doug Wilson, to re-post the comments. Now I am intrigued about what I’m missing on Twitter with Jared Moore. Wasn’t Jared Moore the one who posted at Voices about fire-breathing daughters? If only Katie’s parents had raised a fire-breathing daughter.

  327. Jared told me he has a comment in moderation 🙂 You are right. I told him that I thought you might be confused with Jared Wilson.

    Gram3 – you really should get on Twitter. I love your humor.

  328. Gram3 wrote:

    asn’t Jared Moore the one who posted at Voices about fire-breathing daughters? If only Katie’s parents had raised a fire-breathing daughter.

    Yes, he is.

    I wish they had too!

  329. @ Bridget:
    OK, with that in mind, Jared Moore can consider all that I wrote as applying to him, with the sole exception of references to Jared Wilson’s posts. Jared Moore promotes patriarchy, too. If you don’t believe in and teach the Gender Gospel, you do not move up in the ranks at SBTS or among the Gospel Glitterati.

    Obviously, my parents raised a fire-breather, and they did it intentionally.

  330. Gram3 wrote:

    Jared Moore promotes patriarchy, too. If you don’t believe in and teach the Gender Gospel, you do not move up in the ranks at SBTS or among the Gospel Glitterati.
    Obviously, my parents raised a fire-breather, and they did it intentionally.

    I commented on Jared Moore’s “breathe fire” article. It went through and stayed up for 3 or 4 days, then it was deleted. I’m waiting to see if any other comments that he disagrees with get deleted, too.

  331. Nancy2 wrote:

    I commented on Jared Moore’s “breathe fire” article. It went through and stayed up for 3 or 4 days, then it was deleted.

    They are very sensitive to female voices which do other than praise them profusely. See Piper, their mentor. Comments are curated carefully to shape perception, and, when they post things that embarrass the Movement, they get disappeared. Hence the disappearance of the Jared *Wilson* posts along with the lengthy comment threads. In case you missed that, Jared *Wilson* agreed with Doug Wilson that feminism causes women to read 50 Shades because marital intimacy cannot be reduced to an “egalitarian pleasuring party.” No, women reallly want a PCCP relationship with their husbands. Gag. They are very brave except when confronted by a female with facts and reasoning. Such women are called hyenas and Jezebels by the kind men who only desire to love and protect us.

  332. Gram3 wrote:

    They are very brave except when confronted by a female with facts and reasoning. Such women are called hyenas and Jezebels by the kind men who only desire to love and protect us.

    Don’t forget other Wilsonian terms of endearment for women, such as:

    “pushy broads, twinkies in tight tops, or waifs with manga eyes.” – Douglas Wilson on women

    Source:
    Pastors: Stop Disrespecting Women With Your Chauvinistic Name-Calling
    https://timfall.wordpress.com/2015/02/26/pastors-stop-disrespecting-women-with-your-chauvinistic-name-calling/

  333. @ Daisy:
    Gramp3 calls it the junior high locker room mentality. Boys who have never matured beyond the behavior and mindset of a 13-year-old. Boys who are simultaneously attracted to girls and also deathly afraid of them.

  334. dee wrote:

    @ Gail:
    I would love to sign something like that. However, if truth be told, I am already sticking my neck out with this story and the coming followup. It would be great if a few readers could get something like that going.

    I’d be happy to volunteer as part of a team effort. It’s important to make sure something like that is well thought out and targets a realistic outcome, so insight from several people here would be essential.
    Dee, if anyone is interested please feel free to share my email. Or if there’s a more efficient way to communicate let me know. 🙂

  335. refugee wrote:

    When was his son born?

    Wait…
    Short-eyes Stitler diddled his infant SON?
    Shouldn’t that be HOMOSEXUALITY(TM)?

  336. refugee wrote:

    Amazingly enough, in person Tim Bayly is warm, engaging, encouraging, thoughtful.

    So we could have a Net Drunk situation?
    Where someone turns into a rabid raging monster as soon as they’re behind an Internet connection and safely out of fist range?

  337. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Brad, in my study and consideration of biblical texts I concluded the whole framework of postmillennialism isn’t worth defending or using as a way to approach apocalyptic literature. I reached that conclusion about 20 years but it took another decade or so of reading a bit on church history get to Jeffrey Burton Russell’s explanation of how and why the Catholic church rejected millenarianism across the board and I’ve found that there are Protestant groups that also rejected pre and post. It’s been in the United States that postmillennialism had a long popular stretch and while I’d say I’m Reformed I’ve found myself sympathetic to the older Reformed approach that rejected Jonathan Edwards’ revivalistic sympathies on the one hand and postmillennialist sympathies on the other.

    I rejected premillenialism because it fostered end times paranoia and didn’t square with a more holistic approach to apocalyptic literature in the canon, and while postmillenialists claim other views are pessimistic I couldn’t help notice that postmillennial fans of Doug Wilson complained a whole lot more about the state of contemporary culture than amillenial Reformed types or Lutherans. 🙂 One of the few things, looking back, I’d say Mark Driscoll was smart to reject, was postmillennialist/theonomistic stuff. That didn’t keep him from using Doug Wilson as a template on manliness and I never entirely got what the deal with that was. I’ve got a post that proposes that Driscoll’s markulinity can be taken as Doug Wilson’s ideas after they pumped up on steroids and hit the gym.

  338. @ refugee:

    Hmm … lots of people seem to be different in their online personas from who they are face to face.

    HUG, that’s probable … although I lean more toward the halo effect, people defend the person’s net persona on account of the interpersonal stuff in the flesh. Lots of people who defended Driscoll for years weren’t trying to defend the idiotic stuff he wrote in social media so much as the personal connection because of having met him in person. There was a lot of “well, he’s never been a jerk to ME so … “

  339. WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:

    One of the few things, looking back, I’d say Mark Driscoll was smart to reject, was postmillennialist/theonomistic stuff. That didn’t keep him from using Doug Wilson as a template on manliness and I never entirely got what the deal with that was. I’ve got a post that proposes that Driscoll’s markulinity can be taken as Doug Wilson’s ideas after they pumped up on steroids and hit the gym.

    Thanks for those points to ponder, Wenatchee … and maybe Mark studied Douglas’ communication style while getting his bachelor’s degree at Washington State University in Pullman. Apparently that is also when he became an born-again evangelical.

    Thing is — even back in those days when Mark was at WSU — if you were almost any kind of a Christian in Pullman or Moscow, it would’ve neigh unto impossible NOT to have heard about The Wilsons and CCM and the Christian bookstores/coffee houses etc.

    Ever more connections here, eh?

    And more clues, such as the various forms of millennialism and how that plays into the concepts of dominionism or missional or etc. Much to think about …

  340. @ brad/futuristguy:
    I think the markulinity does not come from Doug Wilson directly. IMO the rise of patriarchy as a reaction against feminism has had crossover appeal in dispy, presby covie, and bapto-covie circles. If you look at the names on the various Coalition on Revival documents, you will find a who’s who of conservative evangelicalism, including the man, Rushdoony himself and Wayne Grudem who is tightly associated with Driscoll. IMO, Driscoll and Wilson are both opportunists and pragmatists, and their doctrinal perspectives appeal to intellectually-minded young men. That said, I’ve had a longer window to observe the Reconstructionists/Federal Visionists and have only observed Driscoll for about 10 years.

  341. WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:

    I couldn’t help notice that postmillennial fans of Doug Wilson complained a whole lot more about the state of contemporary culture than amillenial Reformed types or Lutherans.

    Great observation. And funny. They carp about culture because that is their selling point. And, IMO, that is where they differ from classical postmillennialists who were focused on conversion as the means for bringing in the Kingdom. The Recons have a different approach entirely, and they are focused on bringing people into the Church via birth and baptism and not via conversion. They are actually not very evangelistic for the Gospel, but they plant franchises overseas in much the same way that other movements plant proprietary churches whose primary allegiance is to the movement and movement leaders.

  342. @ Gram3:

    Some helpful observations Gram3 on differences in methodologies among classical postmillennialists and Reconstructionists and Neo-Calvinists.

    I’ve wondered if far more YRR Neo-Cals go into national church planting than into international missions, and if so, if it has to do with more than just where the main funds are available. Maybe what you’re talking about approaches to “growth” has something to do with it. And also theological perspective on the will, choice, etc. Anyway, more to think about …

  343. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I’ve wondered if far more YRR Neo-Cals go into national church planting than into international missions, and if so, if it has to do with more than just where the main funds are available. Maybe what you’re talking about approaches to “growth” has something to do with it.

    I don’t know if the YRR favor home missions like planting churches rather than foreign missions to any greater degree than any other group. I do think that their planting strategy is different from prior home missions efforts in the SBC which used to be geared toward under-served areas or populations rather than new churches in prosperous areas which grow from conversion to the YRR theology.

    The YRR do not explicitly teach anything like the covenant faithfulness approach to salvation/sanctification. That is one of the ironies of FV who claim to be more Calvinistic than Calvin. They effectively disregard the P on the Tulip. They efface the difference between the visible and invisible church, and their sacramentology is not very Reformed, IMO.

  344. Gram3 wrote:

    Do you have any information on how Wilson got caught up in Recon theology? Jim Wilson wasn’t weird, according to someone I trust who knew him. What happened?

    [emphasis added]

    Katie Botkin has some contrary thoughts in her recent post, “Doug Wilson on marriage”:

    “[Doug] Wilson is not being inconsistent, however, because he routinely encourages marriages that might give sane people pause. Why? Because, in Wilson’s view, marriage encourages sanctification. He learned this from his father […] [emphasis added]

    http://kbotkin.com/2015/09/07/doug-wilson-on-marriage/

    To this, I would add a few thoughts based on my own direct experiences with Jim Wilson, Community Christian Ministries (CCM), and those going to Wilson-related churches in Pullman/Moscow 1973-1987 — and indirectly through what happened to friends affected by them (mostly negatively).

    Jim Wilson was the director of CCM, and (back then, at least) its most visible persona. It also seemed clear to me that he was the main influencer of doctrine for CCM. Some distinctively CCM teachings became pervasive in the wider church community. That’s because many students and towns-people over those decades had absorbed them, and many evangelical churches there also experienced a lot members changing their home church. Thus, as I said in an earlier comment, it seemed impossible to escape the influences in the Palouse region of CCM and The Wilsons.

    ** CCM was ecumenical and therefore embraced leaders with a range of views on sanctification. However, I recall several destructive views of sanctification dominating, such as “sinless perfectionism” and one-naturism, and a lot of denial of the reality of sin, brokenness, and suffering. Not all staff, students, and leaders involved in CCM-related churches or their bookstores/campus ministries held to these. But enough of them did that it was a constant battle for Christians who wanted to grow in Christ but found those pesky temptations and aspects of their brokenness hung on.

    Solutions to sin/brokenness seemed to be to believe harder, or say they didn’t exist, or “that’s not your true nature.” But submerged brokenness keeps erupting. So, the legalism and general pressure to conform to the CCM ideals and profiles of perfectionism quenched the Spirit and crushed the spirit of many disciples who couldn’t live up to the standards.

    As part of this, the pressure on young adults to get married was immense and intense. And, for those of us who were post-college age – both men and women – the attempts at matchmaking seemed relentless and sometimes got outright cruel.

    Legalism and behavior modification fix nothing. Marriage cures nothing.

    I was never a fan of CCM or Jim Wilson. But again, I’m not saying that all these destructive doctrines came from Jim Wilson personally. However, since he was CCM’s prime leader from early on, I believe it is reasonable to consider him culpable for fostering a severely unhealthy/toxic environment for spiritual growth. And that set-up was part of the perfect storm which a charismatic pragmatist and opportunist could capitalize on …

  345. Pingback: Linkathon! » PhoenixPreacher | PhoenixPreacher UNITED STATES

  346. Gram3 wrote:

    Driscoll and Wilson are both opportunists and pragmatists, and their doctrinal perspectives appeal to intellectually-minded young men.

    A generation or two ago, the “doctrinal perspective” that appealed to “intellectually-minded young men” was called Soviet Communism.

  347. Gram3 wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    Gramp3 calls it the junior high locker room mentality. Boys who have never matured beyond the behavior and mindset of a 13-year-old

    “HEY BEAVIS! HE SCOORED! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH!”

  348. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Wow. Thanks for that info. My trusted friend knew Jim Wilson in the 60’s. This same friend has taught against this view of sanctification, so I wonder what is going on and who changed. Our conversation centered on Doug Wilson’s view of the church and sacraments and not patriarchy, so maybe that’s what my friend was focusing on. If I get the chance I’ll ask him about what Jim Wilson was like in the 60’s and if his view of some things morphed over time.

  349. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    I believe it is reasonable to consider him culpable for fostering a severely unhealthy/toxic environment for spiritual growth. And that set-up was part of the perfect storm which a charismatic pragmatist and opportunist could capitalize on …

    Yes, I see what you mean, and that fills in some background of why Driscoll became so popular so fast.

  350. I ran a few errands and came back with a few more thoughts on Jim Wilson (Douglas Wilson’s father) and Community Christian Ministries.

    Gram3 wrote:

    Wow. Thanks for that info. My trusted friend knew Jim Wilson in the 60’s. This same friend has taught against this view of sanctification, so I wonder what is going on and who changed.

    Certain of those sanctification views I mentioned may not have been Jim Wilson’s personally, but when you set up an “ecumenical evangelical” entity, you end up with a core of *orthodox doctrine*, but a variety of views on *orthopraxy and practical sanctification*. So, what do the Scriptures tell us happens when you try to mix Law with grace? Or set up circumstances highly conducive to external behavior modification without inner transformation? Or show a form of godliness but deny the power thereof?

    So, while “orthodoxy” may not have been compromised, “orthopraxy” was a mess — and created a toxic environment that messed people over.

    And, as we’ve seen in recent examples like Mars Hill and The Village Church, it’s not just authoritarian leadership doctrines and practices which directly harm people — it’s the ideals and activities of “sanctification” that these leaders attempt to dictate. So, we see that “confession” gets redefined as “repentance” and “submission to authority” gets redefined as a key sign of “maturity.” Eventually, though, the incongruity in that comes to light as has been demonstrated repeatedly in recent months.

    Back to Pullman/Moscow, I recall that a phrase we commonly used about the fallout from CCM/The Wilsons was “crash and burn.” That happened to sincere disciples often enough that at least one church had leaders who considered one of their main ministries as being grace and healing for the victims.

  351. @ Gram3:

    One other thought I had for potential research on Jim Wilson and the creation of a destructive environment for grace-based discipleship in the Palouse. His background was military, in the navy. He used the metaphors of warfare for evangelism in two books he wrote, and in speaking on the subject. And I recall having lots conversations with CCM/Wilson devotees about his popular books and ideas:

    * Principles of War: A Handbook on Strategic Evangelism

    * Weapons & Tactics: A Handbook on Personal Evangelism

    For links to these titles, see his author page on Amazon:

    http://www.amazon.com/James-I.-Wilson/e/B001KIZBEQ/

    It would be intriguing to re-read these books now, 35-40 years later, to see what fruit was borne through the seeds in what he wrote. His son Douglas certainly seems to have latched on to these metaphors of war for marital conquest, for cultural battles, even for blogging and mablogging.

    “Winning”?

    I think not.

  352. @ brad/futuristguy:
    Totally agree about doctrine and praxis. Clearly my friend and Jim Wilson have taken different trajectories since the 60’s. Regarding the military, I am aware that Wilson was in the Navy, and I think that certainly may be part of how he thinks as well as what he communicated to Doug Wilson. The Federal Visionists use war chants and imprecatory prayers. Believe it or not. These people are not Reformed in any classical sense.

    How great is it that there are churches and individuals who view themselves as being hospitals or ministers to those who are wounded by other churches and individuals.

  353. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    “Winning”?

    I think not.

    Here’s a prediction regarding the Wilsonites and the Federal Visionists. I predict that they will fracture along the lines of ego. There are too many big egos to maintain cohesion indefinitely. I predict that Wilson will be the head of one of the splinters. Not sure how the other big theological egos will shake out.

  354. Gram3 wrote:

    Clearly my friend and Jim Wilson have taken different trajectories since the 60’s.

    @ brad/futuristguy:
    I attended Evangelical Fee Church of the Palouse irregularly in ’74 and ’75, when Jim was a pastor. I really can’t recall anything much from church. I think I went there mainly due to CCM (the music, not the ministries). I also went to a class for men by Jim (with a session by Bessie). I remember more from that, since it generally turned me complementarian (although Piper and Kassian had not yet invented it.). I remember several books by Schaeffer on the table, though I didn’t read any until several years later. That church is the only link I’ve found to Driscoll, who mentioned attending the church of current pastor Doug Busby in his testimony. I would guess Driscoll attended even less regularly than I did, and was more busy leading men.

  355. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    an ecumenical evangelical endeavor which included a Christian bookstore/coffee shop in each town

    My Fee for Free typo reminds me that I also volunteered irregularly in the Pullman bookstore, where I met Michael and Miriam Adeney. She went on to be on the CBE Board of Reference along with Fee. Did you, or do you know them?

  356. Gram3 wrote:

    Here’s a prediction regarding the Wilsonites and the Federal Visionists. I predict that they will fracture along the lines of ego. There are too many big egos to maintain cohesion indefinitely.

    “These guys do NOT hang out together. The Universe cannot have two Centers.”
    — Kooks Magazine, about conspiracy cranks

  357. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Solutions to sin/brokenness seemed to be to believe harder, or say they didn’t exist, or “that’s not your true nature.” But submerged brokenness keeps erupting. So, the legalism and general pressure to conform to the CCM ideals and profiles of perfectionism quenched the Spirit and crushed the spirit of many disciples who couldn’t live up to the standards.

    Thanks Brad, that gives some sense to the callous attitude towards child abuse.

  358. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    “These guys do NOT hang out together. The Universe cannot have two Centers.”
    — Kooks Magazine, about conspiracy cranks

    Well, they’ve already fractured at least a couple of times. Oh, for the glory days back in Tyler.

  359. This to me is the primary issue, the Court failed horribly. It bears primary responsibility to me.

    Bridget wrote:

    This news turned my stomach when I heard about yesterday. I had many of the same questions as you listed above, Dee. I’ll add a few more.

    What is the judge in this case thinking?

    Why did the state allow Sitler to be married in the first place?

    Why hasn’t the state removed the child from the home?

    Why isn’t the judge(s) listening to the parole and correction officers about the danger Sitler poses?

    Why would the judge trust anyone at the this church to be a chaperone when they all seem to be okay with Sitler marrying Katie?

    Why isn’t Sicker still in jail to begin with?

    How did a life sentence get reduced to one year, a wife, and now a child for possible abuse?

    The entire thing stinks like garbage and the children of this marriage are at extremely high risk to be abused and/or have emotional trauma because of their father and mother if she does not leave with the child.

  360. The wife in this situation still bears and enormous amount of responsibility to protect their child. Being in a crazy Dominionistic church doesn’t absolve her of that responsibility. She needs counseling for sure, but she is an adult, she has made her own choices.

    Blindly excusing her is in some way the very same patriarchal bias that the is article condemns. I am in no way excusing the husband, nor CCM, but legally and morally to me she represents greater responsibility than Mr. Wilson does. Mr. Sitler and Mr. Wilson aside, she is shown to be an unfit mother based on the evidence above in my opinion. Why is her enormous failure of parental responsibility not mentioned at all?

  361. Van wrote:

    The wife in this situation still bears and enormous amount of responsibility to protect their child. Being in a crazy Dominionistic church doesn’t absolve her of that responsibility. She needs counseling for sure, but she is an adult, she has made her own choices.
    Blindly excusing her is in some way the very same patriarchal bias that the is article condemns. I am in no way excusing the husband, nor CCM, but legally and morally to me she represents greater responsibility than Mr. Wilson does. Mr. Sitler and Mr. Wilson aside, she is shown to be an unfit mother based on the evidence above in my opinion. Why is her enormous failure of parental responsibility not mentioned at all?

    I was raised in a similar dynamic to the young lady in question. As I’ve said in two posts on this blog already, if she is anything like I was, she is like a little girl in a grown woman’s body.

    Unless some new information about her comes to light that shows she is competent enough and mature enough to stand up to Wilson, her spouse, and other adult males in her life, I’d say she is a victim in all this too.

    She is ignorant and likely too trusting, naive, and lacks boundaries. She probably does not even realize that she can have boundaries and enact them. She is a product of the patriarchal upbringing or church environ in which she was raised, which conditions females to be infantilized and unable to make decisions on their own.

    She is probably also too afraid to dispute anything or to stand up for herself or her child, and has no clue how to go about it, even if she did muster the courage.

  362. Van wrote:

    Blindly excusing her is in some way the very same patriarchal bias that the is article condemns. I am in no way excusing the husband, nor CCM, but legally and morally to me she represents greater responsibility than Mr. Wilson does.

    She bears some responsibility, but not the brunt. She should want to protect her child to the best of her ability. The problem is that the paradigm in which she was raised has warped her ability to function in the way God intended. That is what happens when you are raised in a Patriarchal culture. If you are not a woman who has been raised in this culture, I doubt you understand it at all – no disrespect to you at all. Why would a woman marry a convicted pedophile in the first place, becoming engaged on the second date? None of this normal.

  363. Van wrote:

    This to me is the primary issue, the Court failed horribly. It bears primary responsibility to me.

    I’m not sure what you mean by the court failure, if any, being the primary issue. If the laws are deficient in Idaho, then the legislatures need to fix that. If law enforcement or social services has failed in some way, that has not been made clear. I don’t know whether the judge made a bad decision or if he was constrained by the law. We don’t want a judiciary that makes up rules as they to along. In any case, our point here has mainly been the failure of the church.

  364. Van wrote:

    Why is her enormous failure of parental responsibility not mentioned at all?

    I agree with Daisy and Bridget. She isn’t absolved of responsibility but rather we feel empathy for the impossible situation into which she was put. I read her writings on their wedding blog and felt so sad! She was a lamb led to slaughter.

    Here is a naive plain young woman raised as a second-class human. She asks the person from whom she is renting whether he knows any man for her. He introduces her, as a good match, to a fairly good-looking suave man. She falls in love and finds out he is a serial child molester. Her parents are fine with it. His parents push it. She goes ahead, taking classes on how to chaperone her husband, the man she has been trained to submit to in every way.

    Imagine, she knows her husband is sexually attracted to little children, and her only sexual life is with him. She delivers a son, and cares for him and at the same time is required to watch her husband all. the. time. It is impossible——she has to sleep and bathe and cook. She sees things that look wrong. She remains silent because her husband tells her she must.

    Her church pretends that nothing is wrong. Every Sunday, she sits with him in church, as his chaperone, while she is also a second-class human who must submit. I cannot imagine how terribly lonely she must feel. I wish I could scoop her and her son up/out of that town.

  365. Van wrote:

    Blindly excusing her is in some way the very same patriarchal bias that the is article condemns. I am in no way excusing the husband, nor CCM, but legally and morally to me she represents greater responsibility than Mr. Wilson does.

    I don’t see any point in apportioning blame more to one party than another, because the individuals who made bad decisions made different *kinds* of bad decisions. No one, so far as I know, has said that Katie is blameless. What we have said is that her decision has a context which has demonstrably affected the judgment of many competent people. I cited professionals with doctorates who have been taken in.

    In any case, any responsibility that she has does not in any way mitigate the responsibility and the failure of Douglas Wilson. He is the one propagating the false doctrines, enforcing the patriarchy, and shaming anyone who disagrees with him. He is the one holding himself up as the voice of God to everyone in the CREC. This is one group I know quite a bit about, and you are mistaken when you let Wilson off the hook like this. He is culpable in all the damage that this cult has inflicted on so many, including this innocent child.

  366. @ Van:
    She bears responsibility for what she knows of life, but how much life has she really lived? She’s been cloistered away in an environment that demands dependency, and deliberately stunts emotional maturity. I agree she is an unfit mother but given her circumstances, I understand her failure.That said, I believe the child should be removed from the home. I don’t believe, given the environment she lives in, she possesses or believes, her child’s safety is her first duty. While she is a victim, this little baby is the most vulnerable victim of all. He desperately needs protection from his predator father and the other spiritual zombies who reside there.

  367. Van wrote:

    Why is her enormous failure of parental responsibility not mentioned at all?

    I want to be clear here, though. The baby should be taken away from both parents and then things can be sorted out. First and foremost, the child needs to be safe, and he is not, while he is in that home as it is.

  368. Van wrote:

    The wife in this situation still bears and enormous amount of responsibility to protect their child. Being in a crazy Dominionistic church doesn’t absolve her of that responsibility. She needs counseling for sure, but she is an adult, she has made her own choices.

    Blindly excusing her is in some way the very same patriarchal bias that the is article condemns. I am in no way excusing the husband, nor CCM, but legally and morally to me she represents greater responsibility than Mr. Wilson does. Mr. Sitler and Mr. Wilson aside, she is shown to be an unfit mother based on the evidence above in my opinion. Why is her enormous failure of parental responsibility not mentioned at all?

    I agree. I know she has been brought up in a sick, sick culture, BUT— Katie has to have blocked out all her maternal instincts to have stayed with this monster.

  369. Patrice wrote:

    Van wrote:

    Why is her enormous failure of parental responsibility not mentioned at all?

    I want to be clear here, though. The baby should be taken away from both parents and then things can be sorted out. First and foremost, the child needs to be safe, and he is not, while he is in that home as it is.

    Absolutely. There is NO excuse for CPS not proceeding to get that baby away from BOTH parents.
    Preferably permanently. God knows there are enough couples out there who are crying for a child; let them raise the child. The father can go back to prison, & the mother needs a good psychiatrist.

  370. zooey111 wrote:

    I agree. I know she has been brought up in a sick, sick culture, BUT— Katie has to have blocked out all her maternal instincts to have stayed with this monster.

    Once you’re Saved(TM), you are a New Creature; all the old Flesh (including maternal instincts) Are No More.

  371. Bridget wrote:

    Why would a woman marry a convicted pedophile in the first place, becoming engaged on the second date?

    Christianese Courtship.

    If you so much as acknowledge each others’ existence, you may as well buy the rings and set the date. You have committed to marry, and any hesitation is Sin and Defrauding.

  372. Daisy wrote:

    I was raised in a similar dynamic to the young lady in question. As I’ve said in two posts on this blog already, if she is anything like I was, she is like a little girl in a grown woman’s body.

    That explains why Pastor married her off to the pedo.

    A little girl in a grown woman’s body” isn’t that much different from pedo bait, so that should satisfy the Urges in His Areas. (I know that’s the reason that type of Good Christianese Girl repels me; just flip that one-eighty and…)

    Anyone figured that dynamic might be somewhere in the MoG mix?

  373. zooey111 wrote:

    The father can go back to prison, & the mother needs a good psychiatrist.

    But Kirks like this have the same take on psychiatrists as Elron Hubbard.

  374. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    I was raised in a similar dynamic to the young lady in question. As I’ve said in two posts on this blog already, if she is anything like I was, she is like a little girl in a grown woman’s body.

    That explains why Pastor married her off to the pedo.

    “A little girl in a grown woman’s body” isn’t that much different from pedo bait, so that should satisfy the Urges in His Areas. (I know that’s the reason that type of Good Christianese Girl repels me; just flip that one-eighty and…)

    Anyone figured that dynamic might be somewhere in the MoG mix?

    Yes, right on target.

  375. @ Gram3:
    And feminism came out of the abuses/desertions/alcoholism/rapes/absense of love from men. Gloria Steinams father abandoned the family and her mother lost her mind. Sin sure has it’s consequences

  376. Bridget wrote:

    Why would a woman marry a convicted pedophile in the first place, becoming engaged on the second date? None of this normal.

    Well said. What I have observed–to my horror *even when* I held Complementarian views–for girls and women, what is normal is to obey what their leaders/coverings/authorities say, because those authorities are placed over them for their protection from the world, the flesh, and the devil. I am being perfectly serious. These women are taught that if they disobey, they are bringing danger upon themselves. She had what, IMO, is an unhealthy desire to be married. Not to marry a good man but to marry, because marriage is what validates her personhood. The girls I knew would have taken it as a sign that they were meant to marry this young man when her authorities brought him to her and when they blessed the marriage and when he proposed on their second date. With this system, you cannot isolate one detail without considering the entire picture. It is a worldview in the most comprehensive sense imaginable. What I find most puzzling is the approval of her parents, though I do have one idea that would have made sense within that worldview.

  377. CB wrote:

    And feminism came out of the abuses/desertions/alcoholism/rapes/absense of love from men

    I see a lot of ‘talking past each other’ done on blogs/forums between women who have been uses/abused by men and men who have been abused/used by women. Whether it’s parents, spouses, SOs or whoever.
    I see good people who have been chewed up and spit out by the opposite sex go around and around about these things.

    Nothing profound in this comment. Just me thinking about this phenomena in passing.

  378. Gram3 wrote:

    because those authorities are placed over them for their protection from the world, the flesh, and the devil.

    I wonder how much protecting DW thought he was doing for Katie.
    Did he really believe he was protecting her by finding whatever man he could find for her?
    Did he truly believe she was better of with a pedo than being by herself?
    Or could he not think past saving this man by this marriage? Was this man’s soul so important that he couldn’t be bothered by the possible consequences for her, the man’s soul being so much more valuable than the woman’s (or child’s) anything, body, soul, spirit?

    Yes, protecting women is patriarchy’s second lie.
    The first lie is claiming that it is the biblical model for family life.

  379. zooey111 wrote:

    I agree. I know she has been brought up in a sick, sick culture, BUT— Katie has to have blocked out all her maternal instincts to have stayed with this monster.

    I don’t think Katie has the mental or emotional wherewithal to take whatever action is necessary to get herself or the baby out of Dodge.

    Like you would not expect a mentally disabled 50 year old man who has the IQ / intellect of a five year old to be able to care for the infant or know how to leave or what to do, is about one of the closest analogies I can come up with.

    That, and perhaps domestic abuse situations or child sex rings.

    Women who have kids who are trapped in abusive marriages, even if the kids are being abused, have a hard time mentally leaving and are afraid to leave. But people used to blame these women and ask them, “Why don’t you just leave the abuser.”

    Girls who are kidnapped into sex rings used to be arrested for being prostitutes by police, but now, there’s greater understanding they are victims and not willing participants in their own exploitation.

    People might ask, “why don’t these girls and women in that trade just leave their pimps already?” If it was that easy, they would have left already.

    Obviously, there is some other dynamics going on which causes women in these sick relationships to stay.

    Unless there is some other aspect to this family and story that has not been made known yet, I think Katie is, in some ways, mentally arrested and is likely incapable of leaving or knowing what to do, or having the courage to do it, even factoring in all the talk of “maternal instinct.”

  380. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    That explains why Pastor married her off to the pedo.
    “A little girl in a grown woman’s body” isn’t that much different from pedo bait, so that should satisfy the Urges in His Areas. (I know that’s the reason that type of Good Christianese Girl repels me; just flip that one-eighty and…)

    I didn’t mean to suggest that Katie looks like a child or talks like one.

    Katie is probably very codependent to an insane degree, rather like my mother was, and how she raised me to be.

    I did not look or dress like a little girl or talk like one. I could pass for an adult like an adult

    What I mean is that she is a kid in an adult body is that she lacks some of the key internal traits that makes a person an independent adult:
    she is passive, lacks boundaries, has been conditioned to never stand up for herself, she is un-assertive, afraid to confront others, etc.

    Those are all traits a person needs to stand apart from others and be a full adult.

    You can be a grown-up physically, you can be 30 or 40 years old and lack some adult qualities, such as assertiveness, speaking up, knowing how to handle conflict, having the courage to speak up, etc.

    I didn’t mean to suggest Katie so strongly resembles a little girl that her husband would consider her attractive for that reason.

  381. @ CB:
    I think you’d have to define what you mean by “feminism.”

    Not all feminists agree with other feminists on every topic.

    I don’t consider myself a feminist as I disagree with what most people associate with the word.

    However, the earliest feminists (was this called “first wave feminism”?) stood for things like women should have the right to vote.

    Concerning stuff like that, I think that is a biblical value, and I see nothing wrong with that or with some goals of feminism.

    I see some goals of feminism (not all) as a means to correct sexism in the culture that Christians should have been at the forefront of conquering, but they (Christians) dropped the ball, so ladies in secular culture sought to remedy the mistreatment of women.

    I think many Christians should feel ashamed or embarrassed that secular women (and possibly some Christian ones) had to address mistreatment of women in culture (and in marriage, jobs, etc), rather than what the church usually does, which is buckle down and defend sexism, under the horrible belief it’s biblical and godly to suppress women and limit their choices in life.

  382. @ Daisy:

    Post Script to that.
    Come to think of it, there were times my mother (who was very codependent) would sometimes talk in a breathy, little girl voice, akin somewhat to actress Marilyn Monroe, even when my mom was in her 40s. (I never talked that way myself.)

    I knew my mother well enough to know her true speaking voice, and it was deeper and not girly.

    So, women who are very codependent may take on some outer characteristics of little girl behavior, but my point is that it’s largely their lack of internal (non visible) traits, such as a lack of assertiveness (which can express itself outwardly as being docile, deferential, etc), which makes such adults think or act like children.

    These types of adults are so naive that they can come across a bit child-like to a degree, outwardly.

    I think my mother (and women like her) deep down know “what’s what,” but facing reality and truth about pain in life is so hard to face for them, they suppress it.

    Women (especially Christian, and ones from the southern United States) are strongly conditioned to be sweet, and they place a high value on coming across to others as syrupy sweet, nice, un-demanding, and un-threatening to those around them. This facade means a lot to them, and is a partial basis for their self esteem.

    My mother was always scared to death that others would perceive her as being un-ladylike, aggressive, selfish.
    I think she knew what was what, but she would force herself to cram knowledge down of what she really knew (i.e., how horrible people can be) and suppress it, to walk around with this sweet demeanor all the time.

    When I was a teen this really bothered me because I needed an adult to talk to about my problems then (like being bullied by class mates) but talking to my mother back at that time, it was like she was living in an alternate reality, a Disney movie where everyone is sweet and kind.

    I bet you dollars to doughnuts Katie is a lot like this, and to a deeper degree than my mother or how I used to be (my mom raised me to be like this).

    I also think she comes from a culture that teaches women are nobodys and nothings unless they get married and have a baby.

    A woman that hard up to marry is going to marry the first thing with a pulse, no matter how awful.

    It’s another reason why I think churches need a balanced approach on how they teach marital status (they tend to push marriage, marriage, marriage way too often), and they need to teach on 1 Corinthians 7 more often, where Paul says there is much value in being single, adults being single is peachy keen with God, and being married can lead to lots of trouble.

  383. @ Gram3:
    I read the parents of the molester, were well off.Don’t know if it’s true but I did wonder if the assurance Katie would have financial advantages, played into their approving the marriage.

  384. Mae wrote:

    I did wonder if the assurance Katie would have financial advantages, played into their approving the marriage.

    I don’t know what their motivations were, though I have a couple of ideas. What I do know for certain is that the theology of the Federal Visionists is elitist in almost every sense of that word. I would imagine, based on other experiences, that if the Sitlers were big fish in that tiny little pond, then what they say would carry a lot of weight with the Kirk. You can read any of the writings of the Federal Visionists and elitism of various sorts is all throughout it. They have switched their *emphasis* from taking over government to liturgical reform since morphing from Reconstructionism.

  385. Just read the update. I think the part quoted below is new, as well? It made me feel sick.

    Secondly, there is rumor going around that Steven is not a pedophile but nepiophilie.

    A Nepiophile is like a Pedophile, a person (male or Female) sexually attracted to Children, but has an attraction to a younger age like babies and Toddlers and up to preschool children.

    The term does not mean having a sexual relationship with the infant. In fact despite this attraction a majority of Nepiophiles even Pedophiles do do not seek nor have those kind of relationships. This term is reserved to Molesters.

    Well, if the last paragraph holds, he would still be a Molester, and even if he is a Nepiophile, he’d not in that majority mentioned, but rather the implied minority that acts out.

  386. This perhaps has been discussed and I have missed it…but I am not clear….Did Stitler do SOMETHING to the infant, or, was “normal” contact with the infant “arousing” for Stitler, which would neccessitate strciter safe guards.

    I know it is splitting hairs, but it really is a significantly different issue. Either one means he shouldn’t be around ANY children. But, there is an important distinction between actively molesting someone and having no control over your “internal” though processes concerning someone. And, if it is the latter, thank goodness it was found out before those “private” thoughts escalated(as I am sure they would eventually with the nature of his problems).

  387. Adam Borsay wrote:

    This perhaps has been discussed and I have missed it…but I am not clear….Did Stitler do SOMETHING to the infant, or, was “normal” contact with the infant “arousing” for Stitler, which would neccessitate strciter safe guards.

    The latter.

  388. @ Dave A A:
    I think– because I Think they’d have spelled it out, and Hope they’d have hauled his behind off to prison already if he’d confessed to molestation….
    Then again, I’d hope he’d have served a whole lot more time for all the children he raped before.

  389. @ Bridget:

    Hubby and I spent about a month in Moscow for business at U of Idaho. We never noticed anything amiss, but we didn’t hang out with the residents. We actually liked the vibe of the town, with it’s cute downtown, the farmer’s market, and the coffeehouses. I guess they put up a very good front.

  390. @ Adam Borsay:
    You asked this on the “Good Night” thread too, and Marsha had a thorough response, Sept 9, 5:24PM. I copy it here for you:

    “Adam it is not clear from the documents just which one it was. But there is a reference to ‘incidents’ which his wife was obligated to report and did not. Also, despite the fact that he confessed to the arousal, he still could not pass two lie detector tests to say that nothing else happened. So his probation officer is very worried. New offenses, if they occurred should certainly result in a new prosecution. However, I think the odds are pretty good that he did something that violates the terms of his probation even if he didn’t commit a new offense.”

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