A Victim’s Family Provides a Startling Counterpoint to CJ Mahaney’s Statement

 

D. Sharon Pruitt from Hill Air Force Base, Utah, USACrying Child-USAF

On May 22, 2014, CJ Mahaney released a statement about the pending civil lawsuit brought against him and others. This statement was made following the reports of the testimony given by his brother in law, Grant Layman, during the Nate Morales trial

In his statement, Mahaney said the following:

I’m saddened, too, by the confusion and damage that has resulted from public comments and speculation about these events.

It is the opinion of TWW that damage has also occurred to the victims and their families as the numerous allegations of child sex abuse and cover up within Sovereign Grace Ministries have been met with apparent disdain by some religious leaders. For those readers who are not aware of the details of this controversy, we heartily recommend that you visit the well written SGM Crisis Timeline at this link. 

Also, in the subsequent statement from the family, you will read of Wallace's Story and Noel's Story. At the request of the family, we direct you to this link at Sovereign Grace Survivors. You will be able to read those stories along with others.

It is the hope of TWW that the full truth in this matter will be brought to light. Today, TWW was apprised that documentation, along with a statement by a victim's family, was available to provide a counterpoint to the statement made by CJ Mahaney. 

It is our hope that the evidence, on both sides, will one day be presented before an objective audience. It would seem to us that all parties of good faith and conscience would desire the same. 

TWW believes that celebrity Christian leaders have the backing of other well known leaders. Furthermore, these personalities have a plethora of grass roots fans. Who provides a voice for the victims and their families who are often marginalized and/or shunned by the very churches in which they sought hope and comfort? We believe that blogs are providing information that might have been ignored by those who control the microphones. Within these blogs, supportive communities have arisen to support those who have struggled.

As always, TWW stands with the victims of child sex abuse and their families. Please join us in daily praying for those who have been abused, let down and left hurting. May the God of all comfort be with them.


A Statement by Wallace and Happymom

I have never conspired to protect a child predator, and I also deny all the claims made against me in the civil suit”.  CJ Mahaney

In response to CJ Mahaney’s recent statement, we offer this rebuttal. 

  • We met with CJ in January 2009 to discuss our daughter's molestation and how Sovereign Grace Church of Fairfax had handled it.  
  • There were 3 meetings with CJ and we have emails to verify this. 
  • He also sent us an article, When Child Sex Abuse Occurs:  Considerations for Pastors. 
  • Details of our family's meetings are in “Wallace’s Story” April 8, 2011. 
  • CJ mentioned in one of his emails that he found Noel’s story “heartbreaking”.  Her story was made public on December 31, 2008. 
  • Kenneth Maresco (CLC pastor) was also involved with 2 separate meetings that we had with Sovereign Grace Church of Fairfax.
  • Both men were well informed on the situation regarding the Fairfax church.   

Please the keep victims and victim's families in your prayers.

Wallace & Happymom   

Comments

A Victim’s Family Provides a Startling Counterpoint to CJ Mahaney’s Statement — 187 Comments

  1. Smoking gun!? Along with 3 emails with CJ to verify. Wonder how the machine will deny this? No doubt they will spin, slander & heaven forbid sue… I hate evil deeds. Prayers that truth will prevail.

  2. Do these pastors actually think that continuing to deny these allegations when they know the victims have evidence will make the issue go away? Do they think that they are our new Oz the great and powerful? Smoke and mirrors only works for so long.

  3. I’ve read Noel’s story before, most recently a couple of days ago. It’s hard to read past this, knowing what’s coming:

    *quote from Noel’s story*
    When all arrived, three pastors one pastors wife myself and my husband, they began their “meeting” by saying. “You are going to have an opportunity to forgive today.”
    *end of quote*

    And then she’s hit over the head with the fact that her three-year-old child has been sexually molested by a 15 year old.

    Why can’t C.J. Mahaney and his defenders see what a horrific crime was perpetrated here, and how their beliefs and actions compounded the injury to the child and her family, while comforting the perpetrator and his family?

    *shakes head* There are so many things I could say here. However, what I will say is that I will be outside the Phoenix Convention Center beginning the evening of Friday, June 20 and for the next three days, to let attendees at the Anchored Conference know that featured speaker C.J. Mahaney has a millstone (Luke 17:2) around his neck.

    He really IS anchored, isn’t he?

  4. Say it ain’t so! Mahaney, the paragon of humility, virtue and integrity lied in his recent public statement?

    Haven’t many christian celebrities vouched for Mahaney’s character?

    Perhaps it’s time for Mahaney and pals to regroup and come out with a revised strategy. May I suggest word parsing? Something along the lines of “it depends what the meaning of “is” is.”

    Keep promoting his books pastors; after all, they are doctrinally correct. 🙁

  5. TW wrote:

    Say it ain’t so! Mahaney, the paragon of humility, virtue and integrity lied in his recent public statement?
    Haven’t many christian celebrities vouched for Mahaney’s character?
    Perhaps it’s time for Mahaney and pals to regroup and come out with a revised strategy. May I suggest word parsing? Something along the lines of “it depends what the meaning of “is” is.”
    Keep promoting his books pastors; after all, they are doctrinally correct.

    I almost barfed on my keyboard….a book by mark dever is on redeemer NY’s summer reading list. I have a mind to go over one sunday and stand outside one of the services with a sign that says “TGC stands behind pedophile enablers”. so, so sad. Barring some complete 180 by all of those TGC guys on the heels of this, I’m tweeting farewell keller to myself….

  6. Tired wrote:

    Do these pastors actually think that continuing to deny these allegations when they know the victims have evidence will make the issue go away? Do they think that they are our new Oz the great and powerful? Smoke and mirrors only works for so long.

    Yes they do. It has always worked in the past. Their lackeys rally round and those without a voice simply disappear. For all the detractors, LOOK AT WHAT THEY DO, NOT AT WHAT THEY SAY THEY DO. Thank God for the folks in Mom’s basement blogging in their pajamas.

  7. I find it silly that CJ seems content to be known as the ministry leader who knew nothing of what was happening with his congregants or his pastors, even with his brother-in-law directly overseeing Nate Morales in his home church, rather than being the truly humble man who could admit he screwed up.

    Unfortunately we had been told by our pastors that they had never dealt with a child sexual abuse case prior to our daughter’s. In our church that was simply not true. Unless they were saying “dealt with” as in “addressed” or “managed”. Also in 2001 we drove to CLC to consult with John Loftness about our situation. Quite simply…they knew.

  8.   __

    “Justice, Oh Thou Justice, Wince Thy Hour Cometh?”

    hmmm…

        Is (SGM pastoral  name goes here) per chance saddened by the extended sexual abusive damage (i.e. have they shown any remorse) that has resulted from their apparent lack of judicial action concerning such events that the Maryland court documents describe in vivid detail?

    …issuing a statement such as :

    “I (SGM pastoral name goes here) am now saddened by the extended sexual abusive damage that has resulted from my ( pastoral name goes here) moral lack of proper action concerning these tragic events officially recorded, and such heinous behavior witnessed and experienced  by the victims of these heinous crimes, committed on my church watch, and our questionable corporate behavior & calloused response  towards them.”

    IMHO – It is the hope of many (if not all)  of Wartburg  Watch Readers, that the full ‘truth’ in this matter will be brought to light. 

     I speek with great sadness, yet, I am very-much persuaded, that neither religious pastoral madness, nor those who would extinguish church life, nor abusive individuals, nor dark principalities, nor nefariously deceptive church powers as well, nor things present in the church, nor things to come in the church, nor height of wickedness possibly found therein , nor depth of ‘depravity’ encounterd within , nor any ‘religious’ villain, shall be able to separate us from your love Lord, which is in Christ Jesus, Your Precious Son!

    *

    Please bring Your justice & Your healing wings, Lord!

    Your li’t  sparrow,

    Sopy

  9. Is the article “When Child Sex Abuse Occurs: Considerstions for Pastors” available online? Who wrote it?

  10. Identifying Paedophiles Through X-Ray Could Soon be Possible

    Headline from The Independent:
    “Paedophiles’ brains are ‘abnormally tuned’ to children’s faces, new study claims”

    A snippet from The Independent’s article:

    In the individuals attracted to adults of either sex, the regions of the brain associated with facial processing and sexual desire lit up when the faces of adults were shown. But in the brains of the paedophiles, images of children’s faces prompted the same regions to respond.

    The study was conducted by “Researchers at the University of Kiel in Germany”

  11. You know for most of my “Christian” life I was made to think I was god hating little piece of human scum and a total waste of air. Even now after so many years I still think they were / are right. I have to admit I use to be deeply impressed with the whole manly man thing, fighter for God, no compromise rhetoric. Until I saw the underbelly of the corporation and saw nothing but compromise on the big issues, like human beings, and total anality when it came to how many angels dance on the head of a pin. If CJ was a OEC, held to the validity of the ToE, supported women pastors, …… They would have canned him. Abuse issues, not so much.

  12. brian wrote:

    You know for most of my “Christian” life I was made to think I was god hating little piece of human scum and a total waste of air. Even now after so many years I still think they were / are right.

    Oh, Brian. Yes. I hear you. Been there. That happens, and it is so destructive, bad religion I mean. The message that I got loud and clear was that one had to live a life of continually trying to please god (little g because now I think they had the wrong god)..anyhow trying to please a god who could never be pleased A god who kept moving the goal posts back a little farther A god who used people for his own purposes but who threw them away once they were all used up. All the while, of course, one’s highest purpose in life was supposed to be to be used by god. So one grew, not so much to despise oneself but rather to despise and resent god. I don’t know, maybe I was supposed to get the message of blaming myself, but for me it was god I saw as the villain. I mean, how bad could a god be than to kill his own innocent son. And why would anybody think they had a prayer, so to speak, with somebody like that?

    All of that kind of thinking is of Satan, what you were taught, what I was taught. Garbage. Lies. Manipulation. But it does stick in the mind. And when I am really tired, or something completely falls through after enormous effort to make it work, or back in the day when they called me back to the hospital at night for a total body AP of some infant or toddler looking for broken bones in a case of child abuse and I noted the cigarette burns on his little body from torture, or when the world falls apart one more time and I wonder “how long, how long” the old trash surfaces and I think maybe they were right.

    Just saying, Brian, there are a lot of us in that boat with you. I am glad you wised up. May I say, thanks be to God. The other one. The one with a capital G.

  13. @ brian:

    Brian, I wrote you something. It is in moderation. Please read it when it clears-for my sake if nothing else. Thanks.

  14. A couple of phrases in CJ’s statement caught my attention. The lawsuit was brought against “various parties” including himself. And he’s grieved for “those beyond the church” who we’re abused. It’s as if Sovereign Grace Ministries, and People of Destiny International (same thing), which he co-founded and led for decades, never existed. He has no sense of responsibility for the corporate culture of abuse. Let’s imagine (I know it stretches the imagination) that Loftness, Riccucci, Layman etc never told CJ anything about any of the abuse cases. As apostle-in chief of both CLC and SGM, he was the vision-caster. The culture-creator. The decider. The shepherd of shepherds. The accountability partner of accountability partners. Their BOSS.
    His statement is akin to the CEO of GM stating, ‘I never built a deadly ignition switch. “Various parties” may have been involved, but not me. I’m also grieved for those who died in vehicles “beyond” the Cadillac. And due to legal difficulties, I’m prevented from saying anything about this. I wish I could– then you’d all understand. Oh– and I have it on good authority there were only 13 deaths. Rumors of more deaths are greatly exaggerated slanders and gossip. I’m REALLY grieved over that. But I can’t say anything about that.”

  15. Brian (and Nancy and anyone else):. Remember that Satan, not God, is the Accuser. The Holy Spirit lovingly convicts; the Enemy of our souls accuses.
    So when Mark Driscoll (to take but one awful example), says that “God hates you; he objectively hates some of you”, imagining he is preaching a manly, masculine Christianity, he is actually swapping in the Father of Lies for the Father of Light.
    Rebuke those voices as the lies from the pit of hell that they are.
    Lord, have mercy.

  16. @ Patricia Hanlon:

    And then there are those who use phrases like "God haters" and "enemies of God"

    Here's the crowd that will be hosting the revamped Resolved conferences, now called "Anchored".

    Resolved 2009 Trailer

    Maybe they'll resurrect the phrase "scream of the damned"

    How in the world can anyone listen to these guys??? It's beyond my comprehension.

  17. Gail,
    Comment No. 1. There were three meetings, not three emails, we have numerous emails.

    The document regarding child sex abuse had no name attached to it. I am not aware if it’s available online.

  18. Deb wrote:

    @ Patricia Hanlon:

    And then there are those who use phrases like “God haters” and “enemies of God”…

    Here’s the crowd that will be hosting the revamped Resolved conferences, now called “Anchored”.

    Resolved 2009 Trailer

    Maybe they’ll resurrect the phrase “scream of the damned”…

    How in the world can anyone listen to these guys??? It’s beyond my comprehension.

    Whoa. So much emphasis on the wrong thing in that trailer. Way more time spent on how sh***y we are than on how good God is. And frankly God created us and called is good, not sh***y.

  19. @ Sara:

    This is an excellent example of how they manipulate young minds. You can be sure that if my daughter wanted to attend one of these conferences, I would be the one screaming

  20. @ TW:
    I’m bringing the brats to roast over the fire at the TWW book burning whenever that occurs, hopefully on a beach somewhere in NC. I’m saving a bunch of books for the occasion.

    It would be nice if by then that bookstore over there, in your neck of the woods, makes the decision to contribute their Mahaney reading materials for use as fuel for the flames. Perhaps around that time you can write to them again, this time asking for their generous donation of, like, ALL those books? Tell them they’re needed to feed the hungry…at a weenie roast. 😉

  21. Deb wrote:

    How in the world can anyone listen to these guys??? It’s beyond my comprehension.

    Beyond mine too. It’s just sadistic trash for titillation. And, as you say, obviously intended for money/position because they don’t mean it. If they did mean it, their lives would look completely different. Actually, if they meant it, they’d be dead because it is an impossibly “wretched” belief system to live with.

    Ugh!

  22. @ brian:
    Yup, people come out of SGM with a totally distorted view because it’s a CULT.

    Obviously the cult leader has a completely distorted view of himself.

    Seems the worst sinner he knows is really the most grandiose, self-important person he knows.

    Oh, plus an athlete…sorry, forgot to add that.

  23. Daisy wrote:

    (off topic)
    Owen Strachan of the Council on Biblical Womanhood sounding a little paranoid to me

    More than a little. The guy already doesn’t allow discussion on his blog, which is a sure sign if insecurity. Now he’s gone full paranoid. Apparently, he not only thinks RHE is guilty of heresy for occasionally using a feminine pronoun for God, but that she controls the internet. Or that she wants to silence his half of a debate that she’s winning.

  24. Deb wrote:

    @ Sara:

    This is an excellent example of how they manipulate young minds. You can be sure that if my daughter wanted to attend one of these conferences, I would be the one screaming. 

    Scream of the Awesome!

  25. Daisy wrote:

    (off topic)
    Owen Strachan of the Council on Biblical Womanhood sounding a little paranoid to me

    Accusatory tweets can also call attention to your cause. Nothing like a little drama 🙄

  26. burnrnorton wrote:

    Daisy wrote:

    (off topic)
    Owen Strachan of the Council on Biblical Womanhood sounding a little paranoid to me

    More than a little. The guy already doesn’t allow discussion on his blog, which is a sure sign if insecurity. Now he’s gone full paranoid. Apparently, he not only thinks RHE is guilty of heresy for occasionally using a feminine pronoun for God, but that she controls the internet. Or that she wants to silence his half of a debate that she’s winning.

    Then he runs like a wimp to the principal to tattle tale (the yrr big dogs). true manhood!

  27. @ Deb:
    That’s right! And with the boytalk sportsblog, which complements the girltalk blog, to prove it!

    Do the Mahaney women even so much as play badminton, or go bowling? Probably not because of the shuttlec*cks and balls.

  28. Daisy wrote:

    (off topic)
    Owen Strachan of the Council on Biblical Womanhood sounding a little paranoid to me

    Shouldn’t he be working to protect, rather than accuse and injure, a woman – the weaker vessel? (according to complementarians)

    Very ungentlemanly of you Owen. Most ungentlemanly of you.

  29. Deb wrote:

    And then there are those who use phrases like “God haters” and “enemies of God”…
    Here’s the crowd that will be hosting the revamped Resolved conferences, now called “Anchored”.
    Resolved 2009 Trailer
    Maybe they’ll resurrect the phrase “scream of the damned”…
    How in the world can anyone listen to these guys??? It’s beyond my comprehension.

    I watched that Resolved video…it was annoying to me in so many ways. One part that just got the attention of my autistic self–I used to do calligraphy and have some books around here about historical calligraphy. The “calligraphy” in that video used lines to constrain where the letters should go (not above and not below the lines drawn). That’s NOT how historical, medieval calligraphy looks. There are very faint lines, yes, but the scribes didn’t sit the letters on the line–the lines were used as guides and the scribe would write evenly above the line or through the line. Nor did the scribes use lines to mark out where the tops of the letters (x-height, to be more precise) should go. This to me is just a sign of how regimented these guys are.

    Also that scream of Jesus…*shakes head violently side to side*–wait, what did I just listen to? Are these “great theologians and preachers” unaware of the physiology of crucifixion? You have to push yourself up to breathe, much less talk, much less scream? That’s why the legs of the condemned were broken, so that they’d suffocate because they could no longer pull themselves up. And that says nothing about the theology of screaming these “great men” were expressing. But you all know how I feel about theology, so I won’t go there.

    Except I will go there. John Piper says in this video “What was the, and always will be, the apex of the revelation of the grace of God? And the answer is, The scream of the damned on the cross.” (1:49 – 2:02) Again, wait, what? Peter talks about God freeing Jesus from the agony of death on the cross via the resurrection (Acts 2:24a). Nothing about the scream of the damned. Paul talks frequently about the cross, but about Jesus screaming from the cross? Not a word, not a peep.

    Mark 15:34 says: And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). The phrase used for “loud voice” is familiar to us, it’s “megas phone”. I don’t know where they get “scream” out of that. Now some translations appear to read in “cry” or “shout” where “megas phone” is used, but most of the time it’s “loud voice.” And certainly not scream.

    C.J. Mahaney says right after that, “Because he screamed, we are forgiven.” Uh no. The statement is “Christ died…”

    “for the ungodly” (Romans 5:6)
    “for us” (Romans 5:8)
    “and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of the dead and the living” (Romans 14:9)

    There are other places, but at no point is there any discussion, any hint, any whisper about Christ screaming so we could be forgiven.

    Sorry to go down the theological bunny trail, but these guys are so, so, SO concerned about being theologically correct and right that they’ll give Tullian Tchividjian the left foot of fellowship over a tiny point of doctrine, and yet, they go crazy embroidering on something which simply isn’t there.

    I’m going to leave off with this, which I think the TCG, YRR, and the rest of them would do well to contemplate. No screaming involved, either:

    “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!” (Galatians 2:21)

  30. Daisy wrote:

    (off topic)
    Owen Strachan of the Council on Biblical Womanhood sounding a little paranoid to me

    I’ve suggested to Strachan on Twitter that he’d do less damage to the world if he was working the overnight shift at the Circle K (convenience store chain). I’m really serious about that, except the Circle K probably wouldn’t want to put up with his drama.

  31. Tired wrote:

    Do these pastors actually think that continuing to deny these allegations when they know the victims have evidence will make the issue go away? Do they think that they are our new Oz the great and powerful? Smoke and mirrors only works for so long.

    I don’t know…
    The Kims of North Korea have been pulling it off for over 60 years (with no end in sight), and the Castro Bros of Cuba for over 50.
    When Reality is whatever the Great and Powerful decree it to be…

  32. Paula wrote:

    Seems the worst sinner he knows is really the most grandiose, self-important person he knows.

    Oh, plus an athlete…sorry, forgot to add that.

    Since when does Fantasy Football Fanboy define “athlete”?

  33. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Paula wrote:

    Seems the worst sinner he knows is really the most grandiose, self-important person he knows.

    Oh, plus an athlete…sorry, forgot to add that.

    Since when does Fantasy Football Fanboy define “athlete”?

    To be fair…he also plays catch in the clc parking lot while formulating his gospel thoughts.

  34. @ Acg116:You mean the SGCL parking lot. He ran away from CLC.

    Oops, forgot. The SGCL doesn’t have a building or a parking lot of its own. Wonder why. I mean with guys like Jeff Purswell, Gary Ricucci, Brian Chesemore, Mike Bradshaw, CJ Mahaney, Bob Kauflin, Devon Kauflin what’s the hold up? Guess they’re using church funds to pave the road to Williamsburg or to Disney World or various road trips instead. All for the gospel, of course.

  35. Paula wrote:

    @ Acg116:You mean the SGCL parking lot. He ran away from CLC.
    Oops, forgot. The SGCL doesn’t have a building or a parking lot of its own. Wonder why. I mean with guys like Jeff Purswell, Gary Ricucci, Brian Chesemore, Mike Bradshaw, CJ Mahaney, Bob Kauflin, Devon Kauflin what’s the hold up? Guess they’re using church funds to pave the road to Williamsburg or to Disney World or various road trips instead. All for the gospel, of course.

    should have said “played”…I was referring to that bizarre 2009 video when he talked about playing catch in gaithersburg and seeing the UPS guy. I hope he has better things to do with his time than play catch now…..plus, I’m not sure the louisville marriot or wherever they meet would want them messing up the cars in the lot with one of CJ’s errant throws.

  36. Deb wrote:

    @ Patricia Hanlon:
    I wrote a post about it over four years ago.
    The Scream of the Damned and the Last Straw…
    It’s all about the money, not Almighty God, IMHO (as I point out in the post).

    Deb,
    I agree. It is all about the money. I just watched the trailer and read your post. Sick stuff from sick men. I’m not sure why anyone would pay money to go hear that stuff. Seems really odd to me.

  37. It is easy to read all about the awful abuse going on in SGM and under the leadership of CJ, etc. and almost despair. Just as a counter note, I would like to point out something being done by the church (universal) working on repairing what is wrong.
    There is a school in the North Carolina Hills called Crossnore. If you haven’t heard of it, please do read up about it. It may help you sleep at night. It was started in 1915 or so by Mary Martin Sloop and her husband (both doctors) and both missionaries who went up into the hills and started acting out the Christian faith. There is a song about it called Miracle in the Hills by Chuck Brodsky, and book (I think by the same name) by Mary Sloop. You can read up about it on google by looking up “Mary Martin Sloop”. Or you can listen to the song. In any event they are now helping children who have been abused. I think I read that 40% of their kids have been sexually abused. And last year 100% of their seniors went on to college.

  38. @ Noel:
    If you would like to turn this comment into a post, let me know. It takes on new meaning after the Mahaney statement. We would be happy to post it at any point. Please know that you are always in my prayers.

  39. acg116 wrote:

    should have said “played”…I was referring to that bizarre 2009 video when he talked about playing catch in gaithersburg and seeing the UPS guy.

    @ Paula:

    Here's the video where C.J. talks about playing catch in CLC's  parking lot every afternoon with Tony Reinke and the UPS guy drives up…  It was a promotional video for Together for the Gospel 2010.  Hey T4G attendees, if you come to the conference, maybe you can have a study like this someday, too! 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RCStEsLPCw

    Guess Mahaney's study doesn't look like that anymore…

  40. @ ME:

    I am familiar with Crossnore because my husband and I visited there some years ago (before I got to know Dee).  They have a Weaving Room, and I purchased several items which I still proudly display in my home.  It's a wonderful place!

  41. @ Deb:

    What do all the books in the world profit a man if he can't do justice, OR exhibit some common sense!

  42. There is a spirit of rebellion all over this website. Your attacks on Pastor Doug Wilson are especially satanic and anti-christ. You gals need to learn how to reconcile your need to criticize godly authority with your call to submission. Unless you can learn to do that, the church should consider you to be rebels and your husbands should as well.

  43. @ME – thanks so much for posting this, it makes me so happy to see something done right 🙂

  44. @ Beakerj:
    I agree! Sometimes, as a TWW’er, I almost forget that things are occasionally done right! Even the little church I’m part of does very many things right. But they won’t be publicised by TGC!
    In other news, being east of “the pond” right now gives me sympathy for you, Nick, Ken, Todd and others at this time of day. I tuned into the BBC, where they were debating “Can a Christian vote UKIP?”
    I must confess– prior to Thursday I hadn’t the faintest idea who UKIP were!

  45. Eagle wrote:

    Wow…

    I read this last night and wanted to chew on it before responding.

    First my heart breaks for Happymom and Wallice and their ongoing saga. Sad that someone like CJ Mahaney keeps dragging it on when he could end it all this afternoon. In addition to the hashtag #IStandwithSGMVicitms on Twiiter, in light of this revelation maybe we should start a hashtag on Twitter saying, #Istandwith HappymomandWallice or #CJMahaneyisaliar.

    This information revealed in this post shows how evil CJ Mahaney is. How he can keep going on, talking, interacting, etc….stuns me. Where is his conscience? Where is his moral compass? I think this information shows CJ Mahaney is a fraud. He is a liar who is in this for the money, prestige, and power – all things if I remember that God condemns in scripture as motivations. (Deebs can you weigh in on that?)

    But this also makes me wonder about Mahaney’s accomplices. Yes I use the word accomplices because at this point I can’t think what else to say. Who are his evil accomplices?

    Mark Dever
    John Piper
    Wayne Grudam
    Al Mohler
    Kevin DeYoung
    DA Carson

    All of the above people are evil to the core for continuing to promote, support and justify CJ Mahaney. CJ Mahaney committed a crime. I’d use the word allegedly but after what Happymom and Wallice wrote above allegedly can’t be used anymore. Mahaney was in the know. How he could write that pile of crap the other day is beyond me.

    CJ Mahaney..you knew. The BS gig is over. It’s time for you to come clean. No one is being fooled anymore. It’s over…if you were a man you’d shut down that failing racket in Louisville and approach Happymom and Wallice and the other you were responsible for hurting and beg their forgiveness. You should also go back to CLC and plead for their forgiveness for running to Louisville.

    Does this man have any conscience? Unbelievable…

    Thank you for this excellent post.
    The answer to your final question is, IMHO,
    contained in the definition of the word “sociopath”.
    There are apparently a bunch of them at SGM. (You know that old saying about “birds of a feather”? It appears to be true.)

  46. @ Dave A A:
    . . .and Christianity Today (sigh) recently ran an article posing the question of whether women can teach bible/theology at Christian colleges. (in the wake of Cedarville’s recent decision that they cannot).

  47. @ Patricia Hanlon:
    One quote:
    ‘”The university is a gray area, but we should stay as much to the center of God’s Word and principles as we can. He is going to have far greater pleasure in seeing a male theologian in the classroom than in our seeing if we couldn’t put a woman in simply because she’s gifted.”
    Dorothy Patterson, first lady, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary’
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/may/should-christian-colleges-let-female-faculty-teach-men-bibl.html
    Hmm– God doesn’t care whether or not the theologian is gifted, so long as he’s male?
    Hmm– “First lady”, NOT, “DR Dorothy Patterson PhD, Professor of Homemaking?”
    Sigh……..

  48. Vernon S. wrote:

    There is a spirit of rebellion all over this website. Your attacks on Pastor Doug Wilson are especially satanic and anti-christ. You gals need to learn how to reconcile your need to criticize godly authority with your call to submission. Unless you can learn to do that, the church should consider you to be rebels and your husbands should as well.

    Vernon, Vernon, Vernon… I assume that you wish to “correct” me and I assume you want me to listen to you. I do not know what you have been taught by Wilson, but let this blog queen clue you in. (Clueing someone in is not the same as teaching so I would assume that you can read this since I am not teaching.:) ).

    When we write a post about those who have been abused, you should first and foremost comment on the abused. Something along the lines of “Gee, I am sorry this happened to you.” If you had, I might have given weight to your other comments.

    Instead, you come across as just another ho hum patriarch flinging the word “satanic” around to make it seem terribly serious. What a yawner.

    PS My husband says “hi.”

  49. ME wrote:

    I think I read that 40% of their kids have been sexually abused. And last year 100% of their seniors went on to college.

    Thank you so much.

  50. A big thank you to these families for their courage and perseverance. I’m sure Mahaney’s day of reckoning is coming soon.

    Paula wrote:

    It would be nice if by then that bookstore over there, in your neck of the woods, makes the decision to contribute their Mahaney reading materials for use as fuel for the flames.

    Now, Paula. Let’s not be hasty in burning books, even Mahaney’s. It’s a drastic step to take — even Reverend Moore (from the movie “Footloose”) knew it was going too far, although (as he came to see) it was the logical end of his own policies.

    If we really want to put CJ’s books to good use, there’s always recycling. And I remember months ago someone here mentioned composting. Sure, if you compost his books, it’ll take a lot longer to make tasty vittles with them. But I’m convinced it’ll be well worth the wait! 😉

  51. TW wrote:

    As you probably know Peter Enns has been the subject of some highly spirited debates himself.

    I take Wade’s approach to these issues. I agree Enns quite a bit and disagree with him at times. Sort of like everyone in my life. In fact, I find myself, as I age, frequently disagreeing with myself! 🙂

  52. Dave A A wrote:

    Hmm– “First lady”, NOT, “DR Dorothy Patterson PhD, Professor of Homemaking?”

    Because only the MANaGawd can have all those Honorary Doctorates.

  53. @ TW: PS, I have become highly suspicious of EVERYTHING TGC says about everything. Tullian’s situation sealed that deal for me.

  54. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    You might be interested to know that Mrs. Dr. Dorothy Patterson has an earned PhD from U of South Africa. I have been meaning to look into their remote degree program for awhile. I know they are a respected university for those who actually attend there.

    I have heard that they give people credit for having written books, etc. I would love to get confirmation on this matter.

  55. @ Serving Kids in Japan:
    But- what will all of the Calvinista crowd churches, along with the wannabes, do? All of them have CJ’s book on Humility as a must read. Whenever I see that book on the list of “recommended reading, i know that church must be hanging around with the gospel™ boys.

  56. Vernon S. wrote:

    There is a spirit of rebellion all over this website. Your attacks on Pastor Doug Wilson are especially satanic and anti-christ. You gals need to learn how to reconcile your need to criticize godly authority with your call to submission. Unless you can learn to do that, the church should consider you to be rebels and your husbands should as well.

    doubleplusgoodthink, comrade vernon!
    doubleplusgood doubleplusduckspeak!

    Come the Christianization, has MamaGawd Wilson promised you a position in his Kirk’s New Order? Overseer of Animate Property or KZ Commandant or Religious Thought Police Enforcer? Or just His Court Favorite of the Week?

  57. I mostly agree Dee, although I think you would agree with me that there are still a few good people writing under their banner. Wendy Alsup comes to mind for one. Tullian said there were others that were upset with the statement of support for Mahaney by the Gospelly Coalition. I think it is time for those people to stand up and be counted. They should exit the club and thus speed its demise.

    dee wrote:

    @ TW: PS, I have become highly suspicious of EVERYTHING TGC says about everything. Tullian’s situation sealed that deal for me.

  58. @ Noel:
    Noel just wanted to post that my heart breaks for you and your family. There are no words to express my deep sorrow for all of your losses, especially for your child’s loss of a safe childhood. May she experience God’s Declaration of her innocence on a daily basis.

  59. @ Deb:

    WOW!!! So when I played Littlee League baseball when I was a kid I was a Pastor/Athlete to!! I just didn’t know it yet!! :-p

  60. Caution: This video and the Mahaney Broadway Praise Team video should never be watched within 1 hour of eating!

    Deb wrote:

    @ Paula:
    Here’s the video where C.J. talks about playing catch in CLC’s  parking lot every afternoon with Tony Reinke and the UPS guy drives up…  It was a promotional video for Together for the Gospel 2010.  Hey T4G attendees, if you come to the conference, maybe you can have a study like this someday, too! 
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RCStEsLPCw
    Guess Mahaney’s study doesn’t look like that anymore…

  61. Vernon S. wrote:

    You gals need to learn how to reconcile your need to criticize godly authority with your call to submission.

    Serious question -in what way is Wilson, a pastor in another denomination, thousands of miles away from Deb and Dee, who is no relation to them, a godly authority over them? Or are all women supposed to respect the authority if every Y chromosome?

  62.   __

    Screw + Ball : ” Extraordinary Historical Revision, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    Vernon S.

    Doug Wilson?

    huh?

    ….godly authority ?

    What?!?

    hahahahahahahaha

    (that was really funny, thanks for da ‘daily’ chuckle…)

    🙂

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

    (bump)

    Krash!

    Submitting to the authority of 501(c)3 abusive pastors who misuse their religion to take advantage of the unsuspecting ? Can you say 501(c)3 ‘predatorial pastoral  reptile’ (c) ? (PPR)

    Welcome to religion’s “Jurassic Park (C)” [1]

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJlmYh27MHg

    Enjoy your stay…

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    ___
    [1]  Copyright: Väčšina textov, obrázkov, video záberov a lóg Jurassic Park, The Lost World a Jurassic Park /// sú ochrannou značkou (C) Universal City Studios, Inc. ; Amblin  Entertainment, Inc. 

    ;~)

  63. @ Vernon S.:

    Doug Wilson, that guy out in Idaho? I thought he was conservative, reformed and evangelical. Reformed? For crying out loud. The Reformation itself was a rebellion. So what are you saying? People ought not rebel against those who have rebelled earlier? Or maybe that the prior rebellion was a good rebellion, as defined by the rebels, but the current rebellions against the former rebels is not a good rebellion because the former rebels said so? That is the craziest thing I ever heard.

    And, he is not kin to me, or my pastor or bishop so I do not owe him any respect purely on the basis that he is alive and breathing.

  64. In other news, congrats to the GB men’s artistic gymnastics team for a fine medal haul at the European championships. Special mention to Sam Oldham (silver medallist on high bar) as my daughter has his autograph!

  65. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    @ Beakerj:

    In other news, what were you doing posting at that time of the morning, Beaks???

    Hi Nick!I was up padding about, usurping, rebelling, generally derailing the entirety of Christendom with my non-submissive ways after handing in my last Master’s essay of this academic year. I was giddy with joy & stayed up toooo late.
    P.S. Vern? Loving your work.

  66. Padding? Gadding! This new tablet keeps changing my words & won’t accept my authority until I’ve changed it 3 times. There is undoubtedly a spiritual message in there somewhere…

  67. Vernon S. wrote:

    Your attacks on Pastor Doug Wilson are especially satanic and anti-christ.

    Only because you think Doug Wilson is the closest thing to Christ walking this earth.
    Hate to break it to ya. But he isn’t as godly as you would like to think he is. The man has some serious issues that are not serving God or the Body of Christ in a good way.

  68. __

    “Turn on da lightz?”

    “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit?” -Jesus

    huh?

    “The primary mission of Sovereign Grace Ministries is to serve Sovereign Grace pastors who are giving their lives to build Gospel-centered local churches. We want to do everything we can to help them serve the people they lead…”  -Bob Kauflin,  Sovereign Grace Ministries; January 24, 2008

    hmmm…

    IMHO These SGM pastors have healed the brokenness of the Lord’s people superficially, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ but there is no peace. Were they ashamed because of the abominable deeds they have done? nahhhhh…They were not even ashamed at all; they didn’t even know how to blush. 

    What?

    Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!

    Stand by the ways, and see and ask for the ancient paths, – where ‘the good way’ is, so walk in it,  and you will certainly find rest for your souls!

    How blessed is the one whose delight is in God’s word,
    Who meditates on that word day and night, 
    Kind folk dat do dis are like trees planted by the streams of living water,
    These folk yield their good fruit abundantly in season,
    Whose godly voice never fails, 
    And whatever they do indeed ‘doth’ prospers…

    (smiley face goes here)

    Sopy
    __
    Inspirational relief: Phil Keaggy “Amazing Grace” 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIWMrK67_bk

    🙂

  69. Vernon S. wrote:

    You gals need to learn how to reconcile your need to criticize godly authority with your call to submission.

    Sorry. But you don’t get to declare to us who the godly authorities are in our lives. You don’t have that authority, discernment, or insight. You just like Doug Wilson a lot. It makes you unhappy that we don’t share you misplace enthusiasm. And it ticks you off royal that we can see where his attitude and theology don’t line up with the Bible.

  70. Sopwith wrote:

    Kind folk dat do dis are like trees planted by the streams of living water,
    These folk yield their good fruit abundantly in season,
    Whose godly voice never fails,
    And whatever they do indeed ‘doth’ prospers…

    🙂

  71. Vernon S. wrote:

    the church should consider you to be rebels

    The same way that the pharisees considered Jesus a rebel? The pharisees were the ‘godly authority’ back in the day. At least that is what guys like you thought back then.

    In other words, you exalting yourself to the place of judge and jury over us means nothing. You do not have the authority or understanding that you think you have. You should stop flattering yourself with such grand delusions. You are impressing no one but yourself.

  72. dee wrote:

    You might find this post by Peter Enns interesting. He is disagreeing (in a nice way) with Tullian’s comment that this has nothing to do with theology.

    I don’t agree with all things Enns (for example, my recent rejection of the evolutionary paradigm would raise the hackles of most progressives), but in reference to the Tchividjian imbroglio I’m inclined to agree with him; theology has everything to do with it. When one’s theology holds that you’re a sinner by default of birth, it makes it easier to sin boldly (as Luther once quipped) and just chalk it up to one’s own wretchedness in the sight of a just and Holy God.

  73. Vernon S. wrote:

    There is a spirit of rebellion all over this website.

    “When, in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve…”

  74. @Nancy

    funniest.comment.ever.

    *runs off to sewing machine to create a rebel…er rebel? flag*

    Don’t worry, I’ll do Betsy proud!!

  75. Dave A A wrote:

    ‘”The university is a gray area, but we should stay as much to the center of God’s Word and principles as we can. He is going to have far greater pleasure in seeing a male theologian in the classroom than in our seeing if we couldn’t put a woman in simply because she’s gifted.”
    Dorothy Patterson, first lady, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary’

    Dorothy Patterson can kiss my impressive white fundament. Seriously, she’s hardly one to talk. is the power behind Paige Patterson’s throne. She’s got hers and she’ll kick the ladder away from anyone who tries to climb up after her. She’s the prototype of a Wife in “The Handmaid’s Tale,” but as the Wives found out, their power was taken from them.

  76. Muff Potter wrote:

    theology has everything to do with it.

    I read that post, too. If the neo-reformed people say that theology is the problem, and if that seems compatible with what they have been saying about almost everything for years now, then it would be reasonable to assume that it is a problem, at least for them. That does not totally explain the timing of the event, however. IMO that theology is more of a problem than Tullian seems to admit/recognize and also the recent court case and the actions of CJ and Harris are more of a problem than TGC is admitting.

    And having heard what the neo-reformed folks have to say about theology, I agree that they have a problem on their hands, especially regarding some of their own theology. And a problem regarding some of their tactics. And a problem regarding some of their attitudes. And a problem that there is no dearth of theologians who disagree with them on some of their most beloved issues. And a problem with how they treat people, including the littlest and the most helpless among us. Kind of casts a shadow over some of their theology, I am thinking.

  77. dee wrote:

    You might be interested to know that Mrs. Dr. Dorothy Patterson has an earned PhD from U of South Africa. I have been meaning to look into their remote degree program for awhile. I know they are a respected university for those who actually attend there.

    I have heard that they give people credit for having written books, etc. I would love to get confirmation on this matter.

    I’m getting the impression that the University of South Africa is the go to for a doctorate from an accredited university. Per Wikipedia, Ergun Caner’s earned doctorate is from Unisa.

  78. Pretty sure Vernon is pulling our legs. But in case anyone needs to know more about Doug Wison, here’s an assessment by Katie Botkin, who seems to know him fairly well. http://kbotkin.com/2012/07/24/doug-wilson-as-he-was/
    (The “as he was” is a reference to Doug’s book, Southern Slavery, As It Was (not so bad, according to Doug; are you surprised?). Extreme-ultra-hyper-patriarchy pretty reliably tends to edge over into kinism,

  79. @ Patricia Hanlon:

    That's how I viewed Vernon's comment. I read it to my hubby, and he laughed. We'll put our marriage up against any complementarian one. Our relationship gets better with every passing year. 🙂

  80. @ mirele:

    Dorothy Patterson’s website lists her as having the following degrees: BA (Hardin-Simmons University);
    ThM (New Orleans BTS); DMin (Luther Rice Seminary); and D.Theol (University of South Africa). And on that site she declares that she never wanted to do graduate level education but that her husband insisted on it so she could help him in teaching women. I have not quoted word for word, but that is what she says nevertheless. She cited health and home/family as reasons why she did not want to do it. She also presents herself as someone who was interested in getting an education at first, but that a miscarriage early in her marriage changed her thinking.

    So, then she went on to teach and write books and have “administrative” responsibilities. Interesting. I don’t understand. Is she saying that she did it but she did not want to so that makes it okay? LIke she has to apologize for academic achievement? That sounds like a power couple with one of them apologizing for being a part of it. Perhaps I have misread what she is saying.

  81. The Patterson’s are a joke. After being around them for awhile I began to realize that the SBC was in deep weeds. I was sad to see that John MacArthur invited him to speak at his inerrancy conference next year. It’s only $379. You can see the very slick video promoting it at http://www.shepherdsconference.org/. This whole conference racket is out of control. Do we really need an inerrancy conference? I remember the time when MacArthur railed against and wrote against this kind of marketing. I guess even he couldn’t resist the easy cash. Anyway, you can hear Paige for $379 and who knows, Dorothy might even be there. Wearing one of her hats of submission of course.

  82. My brother and I talked about church leaders covering up child abuse. He told me pastors and others who do that should get the same sentences as the child abusers, should have to register as sex offenders when they get out, should have to wear the monitoring anklets, that sort of thing.

    I looked at him 0_0 and said, “And all I wanted was that this guy [Mahaney, who my brother does not know from Adam] not to preach in public! D**n…”

  83. Patricia Hanlon wrote:

    Pretty sure Vernon is pulling our legs.

    I suspect you’re probably right, and (s)he is a good Poe-ist. I didn’t properly make this clear, but my “up yours… comment is intended to double as banter * if indeed “Vernon” is just ‘aving a larf.

    * Banter (UK eng. verb): to exchange light-hearted insults as a mark of respect, by implicitly including the insulted party in one’s own social peer-group. 2 banter (UK eng. noun): insults cast as a form of camaraderie.

  84. @ Steven Troy:

    Thanks for the heads up on the upcoming  Shepherds' Conference. Quite an interesting list of keynote speakers:

    Mark Dever Kevin DeYoung Ligon Duncan Sinclair Ferguson Ian Hamilton John MacArthur Al Mohler Iain Murray Stephen Nichols Miguel Nunez Paige Patterson R.C. Sproul Derek Thomas Carl Trueman

    Here's an interesting bit of trivia about Paige Patterson and John MacArthur.

    When Patterson was president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, MacArthur came and spoke two days in a row. The dates were September 2-3, 2003.

    How do I know? I was there. It was the first time I had heard John MacArthur in person. The church plant that my family was excited to be a part of (at the time), had a community-wide event the evening of September 3, 2003 in downtown Raleigh, and MacArthur was the keynote speaker.

    That seems like such a long time ago, and a lot of water has gone under the bridge…

  85. Deb wrote:

    Thanks for the heads up on the upcoming Shepherds’ Conference. Quite an interesting list of keynote speakers:

    Mark Dever Kevin DeYoung Ligon Duncan Sinclair Ferguson Ian Hamilton John MacArthur Al Mohler Iain Murray Stephen Nichols Miguel Nunez Paige Patterson R.C. Sproul Derek Thomas Carl Trueman

    What, no CJ Mahaney?
    Oh wait, MacArthur does not invite charismatics to speak. That likely is the reason, nothing to do with “other issues”.

  86. @ Deb:

    Yep, lots of water for me too! I was disappointed that Mac spoke recently at T4G. He seems to be going the way of the rest of them. $379 just seems like a lot to confirm your belief in inerrancy or to be persuaded of it. All the speakers are inerrantists I’m certain. It’s really an easy doctrine to believe. I just doubt that any of them see themselves as the charlatans described throughout the NT. I think Grace Community Church will be turned into a money-making bookstore complete with book signings.

  87. Steven Troy wrote:

    Dorothy might even be there. Wearing one of her hats of submission of course

    Nope. From the FAQ page:

    We encourage you to allow us to serve these men by not bringing your spouse to the conference.

  88. Victorious wrote:

    Nope. From the FAQ page:
    We encourage you to allow us to serve these men by not bringing your spouse to the conference.

    I’m gobsmacked, absolutely and completely gobsmacked. If there was a way to demonstrate the absolute level of contempt these people have for women, that’s it.

    Thank God Jesus taught in public and didn’t charge admission.

  89. mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    I’m gobsmacked, absolutely and completely gobsmacked. If there was a way to demonstrate the absolute level of contempt these people have for women, that’s it

    Yep! Men can serve the organizers by not bringing their wives and wives can serve their husbands by not expecting consideration in this regard. 🙁

  90. @ Victorious:

    Wow. I’m speechless on that one. It takes a lot to shock me these days but I’m shocked at that. I still think Dorothy gets in with the right hat.

  91. mirele fka Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    Victorious wrote:

    Nope. From the FAQ page:
    We encourage you to allow us to serve these men by not bringing your spouse to the conference.

    I’m gobsmacked, absolutely and completely gobsmacked. If there was a way to demonstrate the absolute level of contempt these people have for women, that’s it.

    Thank God Jesus taught in public and didn’t charge admission.

    Strange…the two shall become one, except at the shepherds conference….

  92. Acg116 wrote:

    Strange…the two shall become one, except at the shepherds conference…

    The little ladies shouldn’t worry their pretty heads about these great theological issues…*barf*

    Luke 10:41-42: But the Lord answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things; but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her.”

  93. This is totally off topic, but my pastor this a.m. spoke about whether science and faith are able to be reconciled. (His answer was yes.) I thought I was going to be bored out of my mind, being a creative and artistic person myself. But his presentation was great, talking about how God speaks both through the physical world and through His Word. Then he interviewed a member of the congregation who is a physician and spent six months studying creationism vs. evolution. This man ended up changing his worldview from a literal creationism to believing in evolution. But that wasn’t the point. The whole point was that my pastor encouraged independent research and isn’t scared by scientific truth. I spoke with both men after the service, talking about how many young people have left the faith because of rigidity in our churches regarding this issue, and both used the same term “we have a serious problem in our churches.” I left church so encouraged and refreshed at being in a place where it is o.k. to think and still have faith.

  94. Vernon S. wrote:

    There is a spirit of rebellion all over this website. Your attacks on Pastor Doug Wilson are especially satanic and anti-christ. You gals need to learn how to reconcile your need to criticize godly authority with your call to submission. Unless you can learn to do that, the church should consider you to be rebels and your husbands should as well.

    Hiya, troll! And not even a creative troll, at that! Come up with an insult that hasn’t been said dozens of times by other trolls, and maybe you might get some attention.

  95. acg116 wrote:

    should have said “played”…I was referring to that bizarre 2009 video when he talked about playing catch in gaithersburg and seeing the UPS guy. I hope he has better things to do with his time than play catch now…..plus, I’m not sure the louisville marriot or wherever they meet would want them messing up the cars in the lot with one of CJ’s errant throws.

    @ Deb:

    That was bizarre. I recall seeing a few minutes of it in the past, but not far enough in to hear him share about he and Tony went outside for Recess everyday. I thought he was going to say the UPS guy joined in or something but no, he simply added him in to say, “I’m sure the UPS guy was thinking, ‘I wonder how I can get a job working for SGM,'” or something to that effect.

    Mahaney’s braggadivio was certainly on display in that one. Blech!

  96. Estelle wrote:

    Nick: I’m glad I’d finished my chicken soup before I read your comment.

    Heck, I was brushing my teeth when I read @ Nick’s awesome jibe a few minutes ago. I almost spewed minty foam on my MacBook! 😉

  97. @ TW:
    lol @ the Mahaney Broadway Praise Team.

    I hadn’t seen that one; now I wish I could unsee it!

    The audience for that one were the ones drinking the extra-strong kool-aid (sorry Attorney) that obviously was being served, that they had all developed a tolerance for.

    That’s hard-core narcissistic supply right there, that they all contributed to and shared in. The cult inside the cult!

  98. Muff Potter wrote:

    but in reference to the Tchividjian imbroglio I’m inclined to agree with him; theology has everything to do with it.

    Pete’s point is that how one responds to something egregious like serial child predation in the church directly reflects what one truly believes. He has a point, but I think there is another point to be made. I was once reformed, and read every one of Calvin’s writings (in fact, the entire set of his work is still on my library shelf). Calvin seemed to teach quite clearly that the elect would know they were elect by their “fruit”. Now, one might immediately think “duh. so if you’re covering up child abuse, that is totally NOT elect fruit.” Indeed, Calvin himself might have responded that way. But the odd thing about Calvin’s teaching is that it focuses on the self, taking one’s eyes off of the true source assurance, which is God’s promises in Christ. As a consequence, I have often observed reformed folks descend into “sin-sniffing”, naval-gazing legalism, including “covering up”! It is a really odd dynamic. Anecdotal, to be sure, and certainly not representative of all Calvinists or even a necessary consequence of said beliefs, but it can happen.

  99. @Dave A A
    ‘”The university is a gray area, but we should stay as much to the center of God’s Word and principles as we can. He is going to have far greater pleasure in seeing a male theologian in the classroom than in our seeing if we couldn’t put a woman in simply because she’s gifted.”

    If all classes/subjects are to be “biblically integrated” (ie. scripture being taught in ALL classes), then what is the difference between teaching “a bible class” or teaching any subject which is biblically integrated?

  100. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    Now, Paula. Let’s not be hasty in burning books, even Mahaney’s…

    Lol true that but I wouldn’t even want to eat the food grown out of the compost if, instead, that was what the books were turned into. I’m certain the plants would be toxic!

    Btw, Mahaney had his Suggested Reading Lists, but he also warned people away from certain authors or publishing houses, like InterVarsity Press. I’m not into mind-control or anything like the society in Fahrenheit 451 (the temperature at which book paper catches fire and burns according to Ray Bradbury, thus the reason behind the title of his famous book) where books were outlawed and firemen burned any that were found. But I can tell you most certainly that there was a big effort to control the books people in SGM read since everyone was expected to engage in groupthink!

  101. @ Paula:

    I think the book control became a especially prevalent when the Reformed agenda was being integrated into the flock.

  102. @ Bridget:
    Oh for sure! And also because at that point Mahaney had taken complete control and led SGM step by step, into the grip of his own pathogical designs. I left in 2001 which, even at that point in the throws is all the changes, felt way too late. I witnessed from afar the progression of the disease. It should be obvious Mahaney not only needs to be defrocked, he needs to be totally quarantined!

  103. Former CLC'er wrote:

    I spoke with both men after the service, talking about how many young people have left the faith because of rigidity in our churches regarding this issue, and both used the same term “we have a serious problem in our churches.”

    You are singing Dee's tune. She has been saying this for years.

  104. @ Bridget:

    Just like the Soviet Union or People’s Republic of China. “Gospel Centered Censorship” or “Gospel Centered Brainwashing”

  105. Paula wrote:

    Btw, Mahaney had his Suggested Reading Lists, but he also warned people away from certain authors or publishing houses, like InterVarsity Press.

    I haven't heard that before – Mahaney warning about IVP.

    Funny thing, I think that's how Mark Dever, Al Mohler, and possibly Ligon Duncan got to know each other – through this college ministry.

    Then there's Mack Stiles who has worked for InnerVarsity Press for years and has been critical of IVP.  Perhaps because they are more egalitarian in their approach…

    Maybe Todd W. will help me write a post about this. 🙂

  106. Deb wrote:

    Perhaps because they are more egalitarian in their approach

    Bingo!

    But of course members weren’t apprised as to the reasons. I never heard of Egalitarianism until years later because of course, SGM members weren’t allowed the whole story.

  107. Victorious wrote:

    We encourage you to allow us to serve these men by not bringing your spouse to the conference.

    All Bros, no Hos.
    You know, this is starting to sound soooo GAY(TM)…

  108. Steven Troy wrote:

    $379 just seems like a lot to confirm your belief in inerrancy or to be persuaded of it.

    THAT’s the Attending Membership price?
    Close to $400?
    EVEN WORLDCON DOESN’T CHARGE THAT MUCH!

  109. Mara wrote:

    In other words, you exalting yourself to the place of judge and jury over us means nothing. You do not have the authority or understanding that you think you have. You should stop flattering yourself with such grand delusions. You are impressing no one but yourself.

    I can just see Vernon making pilgrimage to his god in Moscow, ID, bringing his own kneepads and mouthwash.

  110. Eagle wrote:

    WOW!!! So when I played Littlee League baseball when I was a kid I was a Pastor/Athlete to!! I just didn’t know it yet!! :-p

    Shoulda gone into Fantasy Football instead of Dungeons & Dragons…

  111. Steven Troy wrote:

    Dorothy might even be there. Wearing one of her hats of submission of course.

    “Hats of Submission”? That sounds like something from the Munchkin card game. For those not as geeky as moi, Munchkin is a send-up of whole modern fantasy genre. In it, you fight monsters, like the Plutonium Dragon and the M.T. Suit, for treasure and glory.

    Hmmm, the Hat of Submission. That would fit right in with the Gentleman’s Club (a weapon only for male characters) and the Big Fat Lyre (an item for bards).

  112. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    THAT’s the Attending Membership price?
    Close to $400?
    EVEN WORLDCON DOESN’T CHARGE THAT MUCH!

    And another world of mine comes crashing into TWW!

    It’s just under $300 for a full adult ticket to Loncon–this year’s Worldcon in London in August. I just looked at the guest list and there are some really amazing people going to appear. I’d rather hear from George R.R. Martin, Ben Bova, Cory Doctorow, the Nielsen Haydens, Chris Moore, Joe Haldeman, Connie Willis, Charlie Stross and a host of other people who I am SURE have sold more books than the guys on the Shepherd’s Conference. And have fun. (Unfortunately, due to my father’s declining health, I’m not traveling far from home for the time being.)

  113. There was a good sermon preached by Ben Wikner of CLC this past Sunday (5-25-2014). Many believe that if Joshua Harris steps down from the role of senior pastor Ben Wikner will replace him.

    http://www.covlife.org/resources/3971856-Woeful_Religion

    Meanwhile Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, Mahaney’s church, apparently has ceased posting their sermons. Since their inception they have routinely posted the Sunday sermon, a photo of the weekly church bulletin and a photo of the congregation. This is generally done on Sunday. As of this time there is nothing for the 18th or 25th.

  114. TW wrote:

    Meanwhile Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville, Mahaney’s church, apparently has ceased posting their sermons. Since their inception they have routinely posted the Sunday sermon, a photo of the weekly church bulletin and a photo of the congregation. This is generally done on Sunday. As of this time there is nothing for the 18th or 25th.

    What a shame that people who can’t attend SGM Louisville don’t have the opportunity to hear what is preached in such a gospel based group. 😉 I wonder what they are trying to hide?

    I have at times listened to some of his messages and have been baffled he could preach on things such as:

    http://sgmanalysis.wordpress.com/2013/04/15/c-j-mahaney-teaches-on-the-priority-of-gospel-unity-a-priority-for-only-for-others-but-not-c-j-mahaney/

    Sometimes I would keep a barf bag handy when listening. Believe me I needed it.

  115. mirele wrote:

    Seriously, she’s hardly one to talk. is the power behind Paige Patterson’s throne.

    I read an alleged rumor (from you, IIRC) that Dorothy wears not just the hats, but the proverbial pants in the Patterson household!

  116. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    Heck, I was brushing my teeth when I read @ Nick’s awesome jibe a few minutes ago. I almost spewed minty foam on my MacBook!

    I prefer the term “rejoinder” since, if “Vernon” was indeed Poe-ing us, then it deserves a hi-5 rather than a jibe!

    Er – just to satisfy my curiosity, why were you brushing your teeth over your MacBook?

  117. NuttShell wrote:

    If all classes/subjects are to be “biblically integrated” (ie. scripture being taught in ALL classes), then what is the difference between teaching “a bible class” or teaching any subject which is biblically integrated?

    Excellent point! And, of course, isn’t the entire life of faith to be “biblically integrated”? And even if “a woman” keeps totally silent when around “a man”, might she not “teach” him just through her example? So Mrs P could just eliminate the gray area and teach women to confine themselves to the home.

  118. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Some of MD’s stuff and a lot of biblical manhood/womanhood stuff seems to skate awfully close to the edge, especially in the light of the continuous railing against such an idea. Too much similarity. Too much emphasis. Too much protestation. Hey, I don’t know, but it does seem odd.

    FWIW. we have had some seriously manly men in our extended family, and not one denigrated women the way these people do. That is suspicious to me.

  119. I@ Nancy:
    And HUG, I hate to agree with you on this, but I do. :(. I’ve known three closeted gay men before they came out, and they were all incredibly mysogynistic, obsessed with stereotypical masculinity, and insistent that they weren’t gay. I wouldn’t remotely have generalized this experience to *all* closeted gay men….but then I saw the 70’s-themed episode of “Castle”, and whaddya know!?!? A closeted gay man is horribly mysogynistic, stereotypically masculine, & “tries not to be” gay. If I’m stereotyping, Hollywood beat me to it. 🙁

  120. Victorious wrote:

    We encourage you to allow us to serve these men by not bringing your spouse to the conference.

    @ Taylor Joy:
    (also HUG and Nancy)

    I used to trust the integrity of national men’s ministries that wanted to help my man become a better man. I sent my husband to Promise Keeper back in the day. I should not have put my trust in them. These situations do NOT help men become better men. Nor does it help women, children, and marriages.. It’s a big money grab and indoctrination session preparing them to spend more money and make conference hosts and speakers rich.

    http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2012/05/promise-keepers-hurt-my-marriage.html

  121. @Joy Huff – yes. It’s Seneca Creek. Not a perfect church by any means, but open in some good ways. When I spoke to the pastor after the service, I said, “You’re not afraid of stirring up controversy, are you?” and he replied, “Not when it needs to be stirred up.”

    If you want my email, Dee and Deb have it.

  122. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Er – just to satisfy my curiosity, why were you brushing your teeth over your MacBook?

    Because tooth-brushing is boring, and because I have so little time to read all the awesome posts and comments here. So I like to try to do both at once, which usually works. Unless someone’s awesome comment makes me guffaw.

  123. Nancy wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Some of MD’s stuff and a lot of biblical manhood/womanhood stuff seems to skate awfully close to the edge, especially in the light of the continuous railing against such an idea. Too much similarity. Too much emphasis. Too much protestation. Hey, I don’t know, but it does seem odd.

    I’ve figured that any Male Supremacist culture is going to feel a pull towards male homosexuality. If women have been reduced to no more than domestic animals, how else can you have sex with another PERSON? As one ancient culture put it, “Women for breeding stock, Men for love, Boys for pleasure.” A milder version of this pull are “Bros & Hos” Bromance and male-on-male warrior bonding that goes a bit too far.

    Yet if that Male Supremacist culture also has a strong taboo against male homosexuality (like Leviticus or Koran), you will always have a tension between the two. The Male Supremacist culture pulling them towards it while the Holy Book pushes them away. Probably manifesting in Forbidden Fruit Syndrome (“That apple… So juicy… So sweet…”) and a LOT of preaching and campaigning against said Forbidden Fruit.

  124. Mara wrote:

    It’s a big money grab and indoctrination session preparing them to spend more money and make conference hosts and speakers rich.

    Yep. That’s all. Nothing more and nothing less. Why should it cost $379!!! to hear men talk about inerrancy? http://www.shepherdsconference.org/ . And why does it take so many men to talk about it? And why can’t women hear about this doctrine? And what can they say that hasn’t been said a million times? Is traveling to California for this the best use of resources for anyone, male or female?

  125. Dave A A wrote:

    mirele wrote:

    Seriously, she’s hardly one to talk. is the power behind Paige Patterson’s throne.

    I read an alleged rumor (from you, IIRC) that Dorothy wears not just the hats, but the proverbial pants in the Patterson household!

    Does she carry her hubby’s testicles around in her submissive wifey purse?

    And why do I keep thinking of Imelda Marcos, Elena Ceaucescu, and all those “Corrupters of Emperors” Empresses in Chinese legend who mixed wearing the proverbial pants with actual political POWER?

  126. Taylor Joy wrote:

    I’ve known three closeted gay men before they came out, and they were all incredibly mysogynistic, obsessed with stereotypical masculinity, and insistent that they weren’t gay.

    We’ve got one local (non-closeted) gay shock comic whose contempt for women has become legendary. (You wouldn’t know of him, he’s very local.) And you DO run into what can only be described as “Homosexual Supremacists”; they’re a fringe, but they’re out there (in more ways than one).

    As for “obsessed with stereotypical masculinity”, one of the archetypes of the gay scene IS the uber-buffed-up bodybuilder physique. I wonder if it’s a version of “Penetrator = Real Manly Man, Penetrated = Effeminate Woman”? Not that far a stretch from the straight super-stud…

    I wouldn’t remotely have generalized this experience to *all* closeted gay men….but then I saw the 70′s-themed episode of “Castle”, and whaddya know!?!?

    Not “all” so much as a pattern that’s common enough to become an archetype.

    Is there any entry for that on TV Tropes?

  127. Steven Troy wrote:

    Mara wrote:
    It’s a big money grab and indoctrination session preparing them to spend more money and make conference hosts and speakers rich.
    Yep. That’s all. Nothing more and nothing less. Why should it cost $379!!! to hear men talk about inerrancy? http://www.shepherdsconference.org/ . And why does it take so many men to talk about it? And why can’t women hear about this doctrine? And what can they say that hasn’t been said a million times? Is traveling to California for this the best use of resources for anyone, male or female?

    The conference will require 7 days of time, 7 nights in hotel, airfare for most, and food (and books to be sure). It’s easily a $2,000,to $2,500 trip per person. That’s a lot of money and time from congregations. Only wealthy churches can afford to send their pastors without a conscience stopping them. Add the pastors salary for a week to that cost. Is it necessary?

    On another note, just musing whether or not Mahaney bothers to go to conferences if he is not in same way at the front.

  128. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    “Hats of Submission”? That sounds like something from the Munchkin card game. For those not as geeky as moi, Munchkin is a send-up of whole modern fantasy genre. In it, you fight monsters, like the Plutonium Dragon and the M.T. Suit, for treasure and glory.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Munchkin
    And there are booster-pack sets for various genres:
    Star Munchkin (space opera)…
    Munchkin Fu (chop-saki)…
    Munchkin Bites (wangsty goth vampires)…
    Super Munchkin (superheroes)…
    Munchkin Impossible (spies)…
    Munchkin Chtulhu (Lovecraftia)…
    The Good, the Bad, and the Munchkin (spaghetti westerns)…
    Munchkin Apocalypse (post-holocaust dystopia)…
    Munchkin Axe Cop (chop chop)…
    Munchkin Booty (Avast, ARRR, me buckos!)…
    Munchkin Conan (Hyborian Age)…
    Munchkin Zombies (zombie apocalypse)…
    AND Munchkin Blender (crossovers for ALL the above).

  129. Mara wrote:

    It’s a big money grab and indoctrination session preparing them to spend more money and make conference hosts and speakers rich.

    All under the guise of “male bonding” and spiritual renewal.

    That women are forbidden to join the organization or attend its events — “Their presence tends to inhibit men,” one PK representative said merely adds to the mysterious air Promise Keepers has cultivated.

    One man’s experience at a “coliseum packed with packed with hooting, hollering, high-fiving men….”

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ShOOT9ud6bYJ:www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp%3Ftitle%3D225+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

  130. Steven Troy wrote:

    And why does it take so many men to talk about it? And why can’t women hear about this doctrine?

    I wonder what would happen if an unmarried woman showed up and requested admission? What could they do?

  131. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And there are booster-pack sets for various genres:

    I know! And I love the wacky sense of humour in those games. Maybe the folks in the CBMW should play it some time. They could use some real humour in their lives, I think…

  132. Dave A A wrote:

    I read an alleged rumor (from you, IIRC) that Dorothy wears not just the hats, but the proverbial pants in the Patterson household!

    I see this a lot with complementarians, especially the ones who use complementarianism (or more accurately male hierarchy) as a means of control. The women who do this disgust me, especially the ones who have made careers out of telling other women not to have careers outside the home (Carolyn Mahaney, Mary Kassian, Paige Patterson, Nancy Leigh DeMoss, et al) but who in reality exercise spiritual authority, leadership, and control in the way they define their male “complements” should.

    The Moderator Kris at her sgmsurvivors blog is an interesting example of this as well. Teaching, leading, determining correct “doctrine” for SGM Survivors while she defends Male Hierarchy/ESS against criticism. She puts the kibosh on discussion pointing to it as a key component of SGM’s twisted gospel/spiritual abuse while her husband serves in the background as her “Helper” (according to how complementarians define the word). In her view the problem isn’t the teaching because it’s pure; it’s the impure people who practice it erroneously, or the impure groups like SGM who mess it up. But she and her relatives are good and don’t have things mixed up, proving complementarianism is good as long as good people practice it as they should! (i.e. as egalitarians lol)

  133. Bridget wrote:

    The conference will require 7 days of time, 7 nights in hotel, airfare for most, and food (and books to be sure). It’s easily a $2,000,to $2,500 trip per person.

    Airfare (coach, domestic) around $600 these days.
    Hotel ($100-150/night) $700-1100 plus around $200-400 in taxes and “fees”.
    Getting in the door around $400. (More than even WorldCon.)
    Meals (7 days) $200-600 depending on how upscale your tastes are. More if there’s a bar tab for The Secret Sip. (Fannish types mostly bring their own, and I’m not much of a drinking man, so I wouldn’t know how much.)
    Dealer’s Room budget: Unknown, but probably three figures (more if said conference does high-pressure sales).

    Yeah, $2000 MINIMUM.
    Probably more, as these guys won’t know the fannish tricks for congoing on the cheap.
    Possibly a LOT more if they’re MenaGawd who are used to The Best of Everything on their pewsitters’ dime.

    And Prostitution! I forgot Prostie expenses! And Pay-channel Porn charges! (Unlike Respectable Business and Professional cons, Fannish types don’t go in much for that, so I have no idea how much it costs. However, Uber-Respectable types DO tend to go Spring Break Wild when they’re off their home turf away from everybody who might know them.)

  134. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    I know! And I love the wacky sense of humour in those games. Maybe the folks in the CBMW should play it some time. They could use some real humour in their lives, I think…

    True Beleivers have no sense of humor.
    Especially regarding themselves.
    They’re as serious as Screwtape.

    “There can be no laughter in Islam.” — Ayatollah Khomeini

  135. This is off topic, but I don’t understand how Dottie received a theological education but she and other royalty are denying it to women? Complementarian is a misnomer. Women in these relationships control a lot. You can go to Islamic countries and in many cases women rule the roost.

  136. Victorious wrote:

    One man’s experience at a “coliseum packed with packed with hooting, hollering, high-fiving men….”

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ShOOT9ud6bYJ:www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp%3Ftitle%3D225+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    That’s a Football Game, with all the buttery doughy wannabes screaming in the stands. All that’s missing are team-color body paint and speedos in 30-below weather.

    Instead, add a boot-camp atmo straight out of Full Metal Jacket, with the guy behind the mike going R Lee Ermey on the Wimps.

    This combination cannot end well.

  137. Paula wrote:

    The women who do this disgust me, especially the ones who have made careers out of telling other women not to have careers outside the home (Carolyn Mahaney, Mary Kassian, Paige Patterson, Nancy Leigh DeMoss, et al)

    Whoops, I keep forgetting Paige Patterson is a man 😛

  138. Victorious wrote:

    One man’s experience at a “coliseum packed with packed with hooting, hollering, high-fiving men….”

    Thank you for this, Victorious.
    I will be linking it in a blog post on my blog as further evidence against PK. They have sowed to the wind (male ego). Now we are reaping the whirlwind with Driscoll, Piper, Wilson (yes Vernon, I said Wilson), Phillips, Grudem, and a host of many others.

  139. Off in left field, but perhaps still relevant to the homoerotic vibe of some of the Christian men’s movements: I have often wondered, if the Trinity is supposedly masculine (at least must always be referred to by male pronouns), and supposedly points toward the marriage relationship, why wouldn’t a same-sex male union most perfectly image the Trinity?

  140. Paula wrote:

    Whoops, I keep forgetting Paige Patterson is a man 😛

    Well, the name “Paige” doesn’t help. At the very least, it’s a unisex name more often used for girls than boys. Like “Robin” or “(That’s) Pat”, there isn’t even a different male and female spelling like Sid & Cyd.

  141. Mark wrote:

    This is off topic, but I don’t understand how Dottie received a theological education but she and other royalty are denying it to women?

    Three words: QUEEN BEE SYNDROME.

  142. Patricia Hanlon wrote:

    Off in left field, but perhaps still relevant to the homoerotic vibe of some of the Christian men’s movements: I have often wondered, if the Trinity is supposedly masculine (at least must always be referred to by male pronouns), and supposedly points toward the marriage relationship, why wouldn’t a same-sex male union most perfectly image the Trinity?

    That is where logic would take their current argument . . . but, alas, they will simply claim that it is a mystery beyond our reasoning. To which I will say if it is such a mystery, then stop claiming to know and tell everyone else how their marriages should work!

  143. Mark wrote:

    Complementarian is a misnomer. Women in these relationships control a lot.

    There are a sizable number of men who want some woman to tell them what to do. Women have this figured out. Sometimes it is because they don’t actually know what to do (like a child), sometimes it gives them something to rebel against and complain about (like an adolescent), sometimes it gives them an excuse for when things don’t work out (she was the one who wanted to do that), sometimes it might be something sexual. In any of those circumstances publicly espousing complementarianism would be a good cover to divert criticism Who, me? Not me, man, I am the big dog at my house.

    Some men are good and decent people who no more practice comp-ism than anything, but they don’t want to fight about it at church, so they go along with the rhetoric and never act like that at home. There has been some decrying of this by some comps.

    And some men, and I have to say this, do not seem to have figured out yet that they are being controlled by the little lady.

  144. Nancy wrote:

    And some men, and I have to say this, do not seem to have figured out yet that they are being controlled by the little lady.

    Maybe that’s why they’re such rabid Male Supremacists in public. They’re not allowed to raise a finger against She Who Must Be Obeyed In Private, so they take it out on everyone else.

  145. Vernon S. wrote:

    There is a spirit of rebellion all over this website. Your attacks on Pastor Doug Wilson are especially satanic and anti-christ. You gals need to learn how to reconcile your need to criticize godly authority with your call to submission. Unless you can learn to do that, the church should consider you to be rebels and your husbands should as well.

    Put a sock in it, yean.
    For starters, Dougie Dearest is not “pastor” anybody in my book. He’s a small-minded, misogynistic little boy who needs his britches trimmed. And believe me, I am just the cranky little old Irish lady for the job. In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn: “The boy, the boy, I say, the boy ain’t right!!!”

  146. Vernon S. wrote:

    You gals need to learn how to reconcile your need to criticize godly authority with your call to submission.

    Doug is no authority on anything except how to run off at the mouth. And he’s about as “godly” as a pit bull on steroids.

  147. Serving Kids in Japan wrote:

    A big thank you to these families for their courage and perseverance. I’m sure Mahaney’s day of reckoning is coming soon.

    Paula wrote:

    It would be nice if by then that bookstore over there, in your neck of the woods, makes the decision to contribute their Mahaney reading materials for use as fuel for the flames.

    Now, Paula. Let’s not be hasty in burning books, even Mahaney’s. It’s a drastic step to take — even Reverend Moore (from the movie “Footloose”) knew it was going too far, although (as he came to see) it was the logical end of his own policies.

    If we really want to put CJ’s books to good use, there’s always recycling. And I remember months ago someone here mentioned composting. Sure, if you compost his books, it’ll take a lot longer to make tasty vittles with them. But I’m convinced it’ll be well worth the wait!

    Personally, I have long found that the best use for such things is using them to line the cats’ litterbox. Not only does the box stay drier longer, but it actually lasts longer, due to the fact that the paper serves as a barrier slowing the plastic’s slow degradation by exposure to cat pee. And really, how many “good-for-the-earth” practices send you into fits of helpless laughter every time one of your feline friends makes a, umm……a “solid deposit”?
    Really, if many more of these guys get into print, I may have to adopt a second cat…..Oh, wait!! I DID that the last time!! See? It’s already working even better than I told you!!!

  148. Dee and Deb, you blog is having a positive impact when it attracts detractors. The truth sets people free, and continue to shine a light on what some would prefer to remain hidden. You are in good company in offending those who would like to continue a very corrupt status quo. And being called rebels I wouldn’t consider an insult, but a badge of honor many have worn. Persons such as Martin Luther, Thomas Wycliffe, Roger Williams, Wesley, Anne Hutchinson, and as much as I don’t personally like him, John Calvin, were and are considered rebels. Rebel is not a bad thing. So carry on exposing corruption. Amen!

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