How Mark Driscoll Could Have Banked $500,000 With His “Investment” of Church Money

 

Once again, Dr James Duncan hits it out of the ballpark. For all of you who do not understand what is involved with marketing books (like me), this is a tutorial. Please go to the post See how the Result Source campaign made Mark Driscoll a half million dollars. I have included the charts and a few quotes from his website here with his permission. Not bad for a "guy in pajamas."

The two of us continue to thank both Dr Duncan and Dr Throckmorton for their informative posts that help the Christian community to be just a little bit smarter. Forgive some pagination issues. In the interests of time, we decided to get this up instead of waiting until later to make it look pretty.


By tracking the Amazon sales rank of Real Marriage, we can actually see the effects of the bestseller listing. Using archives of Amazon’s Real Marriage page, I tracked the book’s overall Amazon sales rank over the first six months after it was officially published (Jan 3, 2012). Given Amazon’s massive market share of books sold in the United States, it’s a good analog for overall sales in all retail outlets.

"Real Marriage" Amazon sales rank over six months

 

 

 

 

 

“Real Marriage” Amazon sales rank over six months

We can see that after about a month and a half, sales started to decline rather rapidly, though are temporarily reversed by Mark and Grace Driscoll’s appearances on The View, CNN and Fox & Friends on March 5, 62 days into the book’s release. We can also see how various Real Marriage conferences over the summer helped drive sales in the third and fourth months. (This isn’t a criticism, it’s just to help explain why the chart changes over time.)

If we zoom in on the first six weeks, we see how the Times’ listing halted the overall downward sales trend.

Assuming that Driscoll’s holding company makes the standard 15 percent author’s commission on the cover price of $22.99, those extra 16 days of sales netted him $330,000.

If we take those calculations just a little bit further and assume that ABC, CNN and Fox News would not have invited the Driscolls on their shows if his book had not been a bestseller, we can also roughly calculate the value of the bump we see between Days 64 and 90. The interview on The View was on March 5, and on March 6 the book ranked 348, but by March 8 it had jumped back to 100. By April 4 it was back to 397. Assuming an average sales rank of 200 for those 26 days gives us 13,000 additional sales, netting the Driscolls $180,000 more.

The $210,000 that the church spent had the immediate and direct effect of boosting Mark Driscoll’s earnings by $330,000, with an indirect effect of earning $180,000 more based on the buzz that led to the media interviews, for a total of just over a half million dollars.

Amazon sales rankings for "Real Marriage" in its first six weeks of release.

 

 

 

 

 

Amazon sales rankings for “Real Marriage” in its first six weeks of release

Comments

How Mark Driscoll Could Have Banked $500,000 With His “Investment” of Church Money — 190 Comments

  1. That $210K then should be a taxable benefit to Mr. Driscoll, pastors have gone to prison for failing to report benefits from the church, in fact, such is the subject of a current academic article I’m working on.

  2. dee wrote:

    @ LawProf:
    Could you let us know when it is published. We would love to link to it or quote from it.

    IF it is published–publication is certainly not a fait accompli when I’M working on an article, it seems (failed papers litter my hard drive as mute testimony to this). But absolutely, Dee, if this happens as planned, I’ll be very happy to forward you a copy and/or direct you to the journal. Perhaps Mr. Driscoll’s escapades will be included in the footnotes!

  3. Was it here or did I read somewhere else that the church could get in trouble with the IRS for using the money collected by the church to "invest" and benefit a private (ed.) person (Mark Driscoll and his publishing company)? Mars Hill could have their tax exempt status revoked at the least from what I remember. Maybe what LawProf says about Driscoll paying taxes fixes that problem.

  4. LawProf wrote:

    That $210K then should be a taxable benefit to Mr. Driscoll, pastors have gone to prison for failing to report benefits from the church, in fact, such is the subject of a current academic article I’m working on.

    Assuming God’s Anointed Pastor hasn’t set a trail of Plausible Deniability so someone else takes the fall and goes to Club Fed.

    Like Justin Beiber in “the pot plane incident” having one of his entourage carry his stash so the flunky is the one who gets busted & charged, not the CELEBRITY.

  5. Tim wrote:

    Oh well, perhaps I expect too much.

    Like a punch in the nose and a trip under the wheels of the Mars Hill bus?

  6. whatever changes come about as a result of all this will be good. I feel bad for the honest hard-working clergy should these changes make wherewithal harder to come by. But to the extent that a heightened sense of honesty (to both the letter and spirit of the law), I say change is long overdue.

  7. Wisdomchaser wrote:

    Was it here or did I read somewhere else that the church could get in trouble with the IRS for using the money collected by the church to “invest” and benefit a privayr person (Mark Driscoll and his publishing company)? Mars Hill could have their tax exempt status revoked at the least from what I remember. Maybe what LawProf says about Driscoll paying taxes fixes that problem.

    Under the fed tax code, you may not receive a tax deduction if the gift given is directed to a certain individual’s benefit. I do not know if under the facts this would apply, would simply have to know more facts. As for the Driscoll end of things, this amount is almost certainly taxable income given the benefit almost certainly derived from it (why else did they do it, frankly, except to benefit the sales of the book–and who profited from that?) and thus he must declare it or could face tax fraud charges–pretty solid case law on this point.

  8. @ Tim:
    Caring for others is the responsibility of the masses. Visionary leaders must live well to lead well….

  9. OH, and the penalties can be severe as a percentage of the ill gotten gain. He would have SE social security tax due on it, income tax due, and penalties and interest for failure to report the income, and possible tax fraud charges. Of course, if he went to Club Fed, he could actually write his own book about the experience, while on his tax dollar supported sabbatical!!!

  10. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Like Justin Beiber in “the pot plane incident” having one of his entourage carry his stash so the flunky is the one who gets busted & charged, not the CELEBRITY.

    The Justin Beiber example! 🙂

  11. An Attorney wrote:

    OH, and the penalties can be severe as a percentage of the ill gotten gain. He would have SE social security tax due on it, income tax due, and penalties and interest for failure to report the income, and possible tax fraud charges. Of course, if he went to Club Fed, he could actually write his own book about the experience, while on his tax dollar supported sabbatical!!!

    From your lips to God’s ear.

  12. I can see the title and subtitle: “God said, Thou shalt not commit fraud.”

    ‘I did and this book is the result.”

  13. Wisdomchaser wrote:

    Was it here or did I read somewhere else that the church could get in trouble with the IRS

    it was at pajamapages a few days ago, called inurement. It was an interesting read!

  14. “Confessions of a cheating, sinful, abusive pastor.”

    Let’s have a contest, chocolate bar for the winner, for best title for a MD written book while in Club Fed!

  15. Wisdomchaser: obviously I see now I was slow on that answer, it took me a while to find it. Others are much faster 🙂

  16. Tim wrote:

    Warren Throckmorton just posted a couple short videos of Mr. Driscoll advocating that very thing:

    I saw those two videos but can’t figure out where he’s reading from when referencing “cursing” and “beating them up”. Do you know?

  17. Victorious wrote:

    Tim wrote:

    Warren Throckmorton just posted a couple short videos of Mr. Driscoll advocating that very thing:

    I saw those two videos but can’t figure out where he’s reading from when referencing “cursing” and “beating them up”. Do you know?

    I do not know about those particular videos, but he does discuss “goin Old Testament” on people, punching people, throwing people under MHC bus, piling up the bodies of enemies, etc. This is all well-documented.

  18. Victorious wrote:

    can’t figure out where he’s reading from when referencing “cursing” and “beating them up”. Do you know?

    It sounded to me like a study on Nehemiah. A really goofy study on Nehemiah that is being used to justify a pastor acting like a bully to his lay and staff leadership.

  19. An Attorney wrote:

    “Confessions of a cheating, sinful, abusive pastor.”

    Let’s have a contest, chocolate bar for the winner, for best title for a MD written book while in Club Fed!

    Penovision: I See Fed People.

  20. An Attorney wrote:

    “Confessions of a cheating, sinful, abusive pastor.” Let’s have a contest, chocolate bar for the winner, for best title for a MD written book while in Club Fed!

    I'll give it a shot…

    Imprisoned for the Gospel

    Locked (Up) and Loaded ($$$)

  21. @ LawProf:
    Are you looking at the tax evasion case of Ronald Weinland? He was using his church’s tithing funds as his personal piggyback and not paying taxes on the cars, trips, massages, etc. (Obviously it’s a bit more complex than that.) But it’s a very recent case and shows the IRS does occasionally go after flagrant religious abusers of the tax code.

  22. I think that’s worth a chocolate bar, even if I didn’t win the best title award from An Attorney. You’re serving the bar, right?

  23. Tim wrote:

    It sounded to me like a study on Nehemiah. A really goofy study on Nehemiah that is being used to justify a pastor acting like a bully to his lay and staff leadership

    Thanks, Tim! That’s what I thought but doing a search for those phrases/words on 8 versions of the Bible I have on e-sword didn’t show on any of them. None showed up in the book of Nehemiah. Strange….

  24. No surprise where MD got the necessary names for “selling” his book……
    This was posted by Pastor Mark Driscoll
    Dec 18, 2011
    Posted in: Sermons, Money

    Last Chance to Support God’s Work at Mars Hill and Get a FREE Copy of Real Marriage

    Give $25 or more to support God’s work through Mars Hill, Resurgence, and Acts 29 and get a free copy of Real Marriage.

    Offer ends this Tuesday, December 20, 2011 at noon Pacific Standard Time.

  25. Oh, I found it…Nehemiah 13:25.
    Neh 13:25 So I contended with them and cursed them and struck some of them and pulled out their hair, and made them swear by God, “You shall not give your daughters to their sons, nor take of their daughters for your sons or for yourselves.

  26. Is there a way to report this to the IRS? Mars Hill Church and Mark Driscoll need to be held accountable for their actions.

  27. @ Victorious:

    It’s out of context AND has MD never been told that just because it’s in the bible, it doesn’t mean you have license to do it?

  28. Bridget wrote:

    It’s out of context AND has MD never been told that just because it’s in the bible, it doesn’t mean you have license to do it?

    Evidently he doesn’t care. And I was appalled to hear laughter from church members. See…they encourage him to continue his erroneous applications and his rude behavior. Of course, it’s likely out of fear of confronting him.

  29. Is there any way to know if other megachurch pastors have bought their way onto the NYT list? I really hope that we will hear that. Mark Driscoll and Ed Young in particular.

  30. @ Victorious:

    It comes off to me as the Bible being used as a prop. Verses cherry picked to support the message, instead of the usual course of reading through scripture and discerning it’s message.

    There probably is fear of MD, how awful they can’t see the real man behind the curtain.

  31. Bridget is spot on: Everything described in the Bible is not therefore condoned, even those things done by God’s people, otherwise we’d be calling down curses on one another, regularly resorting to physical violence, arguing over who is the greatest in the Kingdom of God, sleeping with subordinates’ spouses, then setting out to destroy the innocent subordinate–essentially, we’d be acting like cult leaders, like Driscoll, Bakker (in bygone years), etc.

    Second, people like Driscoll never understand the irony of the fact that what they condemn most strongly is almost invariably their own behavior. The problem, at bottom, that Nehemiah was dealing with was not someone’s selection of a spouse, it was the fact that the Israelites were adopting the evil ways of the outside culture, the intermarrying was a sign of that underlying problem. That’s what caused Nehemiah to “Go Ol’ Testament” on ’em, as Driscoll puts it.

    But of course that is precisely the source of Driscoll’s corruption: he has adopted the worst elements of the culture at large, lording it over his followers, using violence or threats thereof to keep followers subservient, covering up his own sins while gratuitously revealing others’, enriching himself at the expense of others, essentially setting himself up like a Third World dictator.

    By his own logic, he should be the one cursed, hair pulled out, beaten. I don’t advocate that, though, because we live in a different era from Nehemiah and we have a Savior who sustained that sort of brutality to make it so.

  32. Lin wrote:

    There probably is fear of MD, how awful they can’t see the real man behind the curtain.

    No doubt about fear with talk of cursing, beating, and piles of bodies behind the bus and hoping for more. 🙁

  33. Why is it that every time we write about Driscoll, the comments trip the “bad word” filter?????? This always happens. 🙂

  34. LawProf wrote:

    Bridget is spot on: Everything described in the Bible is not therefore condoned, even those things done by God’s people, otherwise we’d be calling down curses on one another, regularly resorting to physical violence, arguing over who is the greatest in the Kingdom of God, sleeping with subordinates’ spouses, then setting out to destroy the innocent subordinate–essentially, we’d be acting like cult leaders, like Driscoll, Bakker (in bygone years), etc.

    Second, people like Driscoll never understand the irony of the fact that what they condemn most strongly is almost invariably their own behavior. The problem, at bottom, that Nehemiah was dealing with was not someone’s selection of a spouse, it was the fact that the Israelites were adopting the evil ways of the outside culture, the intermarrying was a sign of that underlying problem. That’s what caused Nehemiah to “Go Ol’ Testament” on ‘em, as Driscoll puts it.

    But of course that is precisely the source of Driscoll’s corruption: he has adopted the worst elements of the culture at large, lording it over his followers, using violence or threats thereof to keep followers subservient, covering up his own sins while gratuitously revealing others’, enriching himself at the expense of others, essentially setting himself up like a Third World dictator.

    By his own logic, he should be the one cursed, hair pulled out, beaten. I don’t advocate that, though, because we live in a different era from Nehemiah and we have a Savior who sustained that sort of brutality to make it so.

    I loved this comment. Thank you!

  35. Victorious wrote:

    Lin wrote:
    There probably is fear of MD, how awful they can’t see the real man behind the curtain.
    No doubt about fear with talk of cursing, beating, and piles of bodies behind the bus and hoping for more.

    ………………..

    No doubt about the manly, managawd, being a bully, combative, compelling, etc. All the tels of one who demands obedience or else suffer consequences of some type of humiliation. (Or worse) Mars Hill reeks of cultism.

  36. @ LawProf:

    “By his own logic, he should be the one cursed, hair pulled out, beaten. I don’t advocate that, though, because we live in a different era from Nehemiah and we have a Savior who sustained that sort of brutality to make it so.”
    ++++++++++++

    but surely a little tar and feathering wouldn’t hurt. I get to arrange the feathers.

  37. dee wrote:

    Why is it that every time we write about Driscoll, the comments trip the “bad word” filter?????? This always happens.

    Maybe he just likes commenting here.

  38. LawProf wrote:

    Under the fed tax code, you may not receive a tax deduction if the gift given is directed to a certain individual’s benefit.

    I’m not defending Driscoll here, but wouldn’t a potential argument be that Mars Hill was merely trying to sell more books to boost the Mars Hill brand? By that argument, any side benefit that accrued to Driscoll would just be incidental to the overall intent of pumping Mars Hill.

  39. I have no problem with what Pastor Mark did because it was totally biblical.

    The bible teaches the principal of “sowing and reaping’.

    In order to “reap”, you must also “sow”.

    That $210,000 was just the “seed”, but the $500,000 was the “harvest”.

    We in Seattle have no issues with a man who does the work and that man getting the reward that he deserves.

    Pastor Mark made money..what’s wrong with that?..this is America not Soviet Russia….I have no problem with him keeping some of the money. You don’t have a problem with John Grisham keeping his money?…this is personal between YOU and Pastor Mark and I wish you would repent rather than write.

    Like Pastor Mark teaches us, “we are to love everybody, but I don’t have to like everybody”

    That’s how I feel about you

  40. Deanna Holmes:

    I honestly haven’t looked at Mr. Weinland, I’ve primarily looked at the law, IRS publications, and a handful of old cases such as David H. Terrell’s. But thanks for the information, I’ll definitely take a look!

  41. E.G. wrote:

    I’m not defending Driscoll here, but wouldn’t a potential argument be that Mars Hill was merely trying to sell more books to boost the Mars Hill brand? By that argument, any side benefit that accrued to Driscoll would just be incidental to the overall intent of pumping Mars Hill.

    All kinds of things could be argued as to potential justifications for their actions and what primary or secondary benefits they were hoping to achieve.

    However, given the apparently highly corporationalized/legal-mindedness of changes at Mars Hill since the late 2000 decade, it would’ve made sense for Mars Hill board members to have directed their legal and financial representatives to double-, triple-, quadruple-check before following a scheme that could even maybe sort of kind of go against IRS rules.

    There’s a saying here in the U.S. (and maybe you have something similar in Canada for the taxation authorities there): “You just don’t mess with the I.R.S.”

    And individual citizens or business corporations or tax-exempt non-profits that bypass IRS/tax law (willingly or unwittingly) can find themselves in trouble. And this situation appears to involve all of those business forms — the Driscolls, On Mission LLC, and Mars Hill Church — interwoven in one tapestry that seemingly can’t be unraveled. But if anyone could and potentially would, it’s our IRS.

  42. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    E.G. wrote:

    I’m not defending Driscoll here, but wouldn’t a potential argument be that Mars Hill was merely trying to sell more books to boost the Mars Hill brand? By that argument, any side benefit that accrued to Driscoll would just be incidental to the overall intent of pumping Mars Hill.

    All kinds of things could be argued as to potential justifications for their actions and what primary or secondary benefits they were hoping to achieve.

    However, given the apparently highly corporationalized/legal-mindedness of changes at Mars Hill since the late 2000 decade, it would’ve made sense for Mars Hill board members to have directed their legal and financial representatives to double-, triple-, quadruple-check before following a scheme that could even maybe sort of kind of go against IRS rules.

    There’s a saying here in the U.S. (and maybe you have something similar in Canada for the taxation authorities there): “You just don’t mess with the I.R.S.”

    And individual citizens or business corporations or tax-exempt non-profits that bypass IRS/tax law (willingly or unwittingly) can find themselves in trouble. And this situation appears to involve all of those business forms — the Driscolls, On Mission LLC, and Mars Hill Church — interwoven in one tapestry that seemingly can’t be unraveled. But if anyone could and potentially would, it’s our IRS.

    I was lecturing on Sarbanes-Oxley today and the events that led to its passage, so I’m feeling a bit cynical about my field, it sometimes seems there’s a direct correlation between “highly corporationalized/legal-mindedness” as you put it and unethical and illegal activity. So I’m not sure that such an attitude adopted by MHC and all the “double-, triple-, quadruple-check(ing)” would necessarily lead inevitably to a good legal outcome.

  43. Dan Youngerling wrote:

    I have no problem with what Pastor Mark did because it was totally biblical.

    The bible teaches the principal of “sowing and reaping’.

    In order to “reap”, you must also “sow”.

    That $210,000 was just the “seed”, but the $500,000 was the “harvest”.

    We in Seattle have no issues with a man who does the work and that man getting the reward that he deserves.

    Pastor Mark made money..what’s wrong with that?..this is America not Soviet Russia….I have no problem with him keeping some of the money. You don’t have a problem with John Grisham keeping his money?…this is personal between YOU and Pastor Mark and I wish you would repent rather than write.

    Like Pastor Mark teaches us, “we are to love everybody, but I don’t have to like everybody”

    That’s how I feel about you

    You are so funny.

  44. Dan Youngerling wrote:

    You don’t have a problem with John Grisham keeping his money?

    John Grisham doesn’t make money off people’s tithes and offerings. He writes books. He doesn’t tout them from pulpits. I have no problem with people — preachers included — making money. I have a problem with them making mega bucks while financing their salaries off the tithes and sacrificial offerings of people they teach and implore to give to their own organizations.

  45. LawProf wrote:

    I was lecturing on Sarbanes-Oxley today and the events that led to its passage, so I’m feeling a bit cynical about my field, it sometimes seems there’s a direct correlation between “highly corporationalized/legal-mindedness” as you put it and unethical and illegal activity. So I’m not sure that such an attitude adopted by MHC and all the “double-, triple-, quadruple-check(ing)” would necessarily lead inevitably to a good legal outcome.

    For church, corporation, and movement leaders like these from Mars Hill who seem to be presenting themselves as highly expert in all things biblical, including ecclesiology and especially church polity, I woulda thought they’d have run an FYI on their prospective RSI contract so they didn’t have to potentially contend with the IRS and also do so many CYAs posthumously. [I actually typed *posthumorously* there, but corrected it, cuz what they apparently have done has little to laugh about in it. It is a sad situation, and the consequences have already been harmful …]

  46. Dan Youngerling wrote:

    That $210,000 was just the “seed”, but the $500,000 was the “harvest”.

    So if I write a book on religion, will Mars Hill fund a $200,000 campaign for me and I keep all the proceeds without paying them back? MH congregants sow, only “Pastor” Mark reaps.

  47. @ Li H:
    Dan Youngerling wrote:

    That’s how I feel about you

    Do you guys report to Pastor Mark that you write these comments?

    Of course you think it is OK. That is the brand of “faith” that you have been taught. You bought it and that’s why you hang around at Mars Hill. It must be difficult for you to understand why so many people think this stuff is bizarre. However, you must accept that you are member of a tiny group of people (@19,000 claimed) who have bought into a system that, outside of your group. appears strange. Oh yeah, and it appears strange to many Christians.

    Its OK. Just throw us all under the bus and keep on rolling.

  48. @ LawProf:
    He forgot to mention that Driscoll also teaches them to punch out people, insult their wives and throw people under the bus.

  49. Oh, bother. I thought I’d start posting under my legal name rather than Southwestern Discomfort. However, I forgot that my legal name is easily misspelled, which is why I go by another name at work. So instead of using my legal name, or my work name (which is the same as one of the blog proprietors), I’m going to use my regular Net.nick, which is mirele.

    Henceforth Southwestern Discomfort is mirele.

  50. (off topic but still mega church weirdness)

    I saw this on the Stuff Christian Culture Likes group. I think Gateway is Robert Morris’ church – you can look him up on “FBC Jax Watchdogs” blog and get some eye opening info about Morris there.

    Gateway Worship Leadership Manual – PDF

    “We require that all members of Gateway Worship have a Twitter account”

    “We want to be one step dressier than the congregation.”

    Yes, those were requirements the New Testament laid down for serving.

    I also remember Jesus saying, in the Sermon on the Social Media Mount, that one must have a Twitter and Instagram account, and not worry so much about Facebook, because only olds are on Facebook now, and the kids are on the hipper media, such as Twitter.

    Jesus also preached extensively on the importance of being dressier than the widows, leprosy, and riff raff, so he advocated that leaders, preachers, and teachers wear skinny jeans. And Converse sneakers. (Jesus wore Chucks.)

  51. MARS HILLBOTS

    Suggestions from an experienced blogger. If you want to make your case, try very hard not to sound like Mark Driscoll. Take it from me. He is NOT a good role model. There is a reason for constant staff turnover and statements about “acrimonious” leave taking.

    State your point of view without threats or insults. If you use these techniques, you lose. People outside of your little group of people merely laugh at you and shake their heads. Get clever and show that you can actually think for yourself.

    You are all sounding like a Kool aid cult. Good night!

    I am going to bed. if you are new and if you are insulting, you may be stuck in moderation until 8AM EST.

  52. Dan Youngerling wrote:

    Pastor Mark made money..what’s wrong with that?..this is America not Soviet Russia….I have no problem with him keeping some of the money. You don’t have a problem with John Grisham keeping his money?

    But have Tom Cruise or Julia Roberts appeared in any major motion pictures based on Mark Driscoll books? Hmm? Hmm?

  53. @ dee:

    Okay, so are these people actual Hillbots or just more parodies? They all have similar patterns and all end in a sentence with no period. But there’s just so gosh darn many of them I’m starting to wonder.

  54. @ Daisy:

    😯 I’ve read down farther on that Gateway page, and they actually have (under clothing for ladies),

    Be sure that the thickness of your bra protects for all room temperatures.

    I thought this next part was rude (it’s also under the ladies fashion requirements)

    No sleeveless tops…. If you shake your arms and there is a lot of movement, adjust your sleeve length to closer to your elbow.

    So if you don’t have Linda- Hamilton- from- the- Terminator style arms, cover those things up.

    Some of the other requirements are, IMHO, nit picky, such as

    Dresses should come to mid-knee or below and should not be worn with boots unless the dress comes below the boots height.

    A. Men’s Clothing Guidelines

    ii. No tight or skinny pants – make sure that it doesn’t cup or conform too much in the front or that they are too tight in the rear area.

    I guess that means Will Ferrell and Fallon cannot serve on their worship team,
    Will Ferrell and Jimmy Fallon Fight Over Tight Pants

    Under “PLATFORM PRESENCE – CHEMISTRY”,

    d. Determine to communicate your heart as effectively as you can through your body.

    e. At times a leader may come to you and ask you to adjust something with your platform presence.
    For instance, you may be asked to open your eyes more in the worship services or move around your area a bit more. When you are asked to modify something, please do so cheerfully. Your leaders really care about your

    I would not fit in on their worship team. I abhor micro-managing. I’d comply, but there would be nothing “cheerful” about it.

    They actually have YEARLY EVALUATIONS. So, are these paid positions? If this is volunteer based, that is just strange.

    Under “Sexual Purity”,

    All male-female relationships will glorify God and will be accountable to those around us by:
    – Not being alone in apartments or homes.

    Why can’t a male and female be alone in homes or where ever?

    I was alone with my ex in his apartment and one of his homes plenty over our several year engagement, and no bow- chikka- bow- wow ever happened.

    They also said,

    – Not engaging in sexual activity that is reserved for the institution of marriage.

    Good luck with that. There are a lot of Christian singles, especially younger ones, who do everything sexually but, except for, how shall I say this delicately?, everything but the standard sexual act, the “biggie.” Other acts are considered “okay” by many singles.

  55. mirele FKA Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    Mir-elle

    There’s an actress with a similar name. Have you seen The Killing on AMC? (It’s a good show.) There’s an actress on there named Mireille Enos, she plays the lead character on that show and was in World War Z (zombie movie with Brad Pitt) too.

  56. Daisy wrote:

    Good luck with that. There are a lot of Christian singles, especially younger ones, who do everything sexually but, except for, how shall I say this delicately?, everything but the standard sexual act, the “biggie.” Other acts are considered “okay” by many singles.

    Say it “Insert Tab A into Slot B” or “pump away”.

    There’s an online dictionary of slang that lists “Christian Side Hug” as meaning “non-genital sex done to preserve technical virginity, i.e. unpopped hymen.” Wonder how it got that name?

  57. Daisy wrote:

    But have Tom Cruise or Julia Roberts appeared in any major motion pictures based on Mark Driscoll books? Hmm? Hmm?

    You mean OT-whatever Tom Cruise and his entourage of personal Scientology auditors with several Hubbard E-Meters?

  58. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    There’s a saying here in the U.S. (and maybe you have something similar in Canada for the taxation authorities there): “You just don’t mess with the I.R.S.”

    CCRA (Canadian Customs and Revenue Agency) here, but same deal.

  59. E.G. wrote:

    CCRA (Canadian Customs and Revenue Agency) here, but same deal.

    E.G., I hear yuh … they’re everywhere, and they have their job to do, as well, to maintain a system of entrustment for charities.

    People who think this Mars Hill RSI deal is no big deal and that the bloggers are creating a tempest in a teapot may not have served in a role of responsibility to help keep a tax-exempt non-profit going on the straight and narrow. It requires diligence and transparency and accountability. So … turns out, this is kind of a big deal here, and not just in monetary terms but in terms of the public trust. The tax-exempt status is the IRS certifying that the corporation meets at least the minimum standards of deserving to receive donations from the public and in return those individuals getting tax-deductible receipts for their donations.

    And if we examine the evidence that has been mounting over the past few years on the internal workings of their organizational structures, and bylaws and covenants, and survivors of alleged spiritual abuse, and all kinds of issues about confidentiality-disclosure/non-disclosure, it seems to me that the leaders of Mars Hill have themselves implanted significant doubts about the trustworthiness of their practices, regardless of the supposed soundness of their theology. Time and light will tell their tales eventually. This is yet another clip in what has turned into quite a video storyline …

  60. @ molly245:
    molly245 wrote:

    Dee wrote:
    An Attorney wrote:
    OH, and the penalties can be severe as a percentage of the ill gotten gain. He would have SE social security tax due on it, income tax due, and penalties and interest for failure to report the income, and possible tax fraud charges. Of course, if he went to Club Fed, he could actually write his own book about the experience, while on his tax dollar supported sabbatical!!!
    From your lips to God’s ear.
    Actually, I was wondering if there was a way to help this info get to the IRS’s Ear on the way to God’s ear?
    The IRS really does maintain lines of contact for individual citizens to report tax fraud…….hint…hint…

    PS–you can call, write or email…..

  61. Tim wrote:

    @ Dee:

    But where does one go to obtain a Visionary Leader’s License. They are licensed, right?

    😉 I believe they are for sale from the Universal Life “Church”. It has been many years since I ordained a particularly feisty tiger cat with them, but I think that was how they apparently were making a living. (Since ordained house pets never make enough money to pay for Whiskas & cat litter, much less licensing fees………);-)

  62. elastigirl wrote:

    @ LawProf:

    “By his own logic, he should be the one cursed, hair pulled out, beaten. I don’t advocate that, though, because we live in a different era from Nehemiah and we have a Savior who sustained that sort of brutality to make it so.”
    ++++++++++++

    but surely a little tar and feathering wouldn’t hurt. I get to arrange the feathers.

    I want to pull his hair!! Please? Pretty please with ice cream on top? I mean, here I am, a senior citizen living on a fixed income, volunteering tp improve my community by, well….volunteering. Pulling Fiscal’s hair out is the first volunteer position I have heard of that truly fits my talents!!

  63. @ Daisy:

    Not engaging in sexual activity that is reserved for the institution of marriage.

    I suppose the real defining question here is, what sexual activity are they referring to? According to some of the Vision Forum people you should not only save your first kiss for your wedding day, but also wait to hold hands, because it’s a form of physical intimacy and is thus reserved for marriage.

  64. Due to how important the "bus" is to Mark Driscoll's theology I have a proposal for the Mars Hill bots who will help Driscoll drive the bus. Fatalities at Mars Hill should be called "Gospel Centered Roadkill" 😛

  65. @ Daisy:
    Can someone explain to me how ANY adult would let a someone else micromanage how they dress? This is the part I really don’t understand about this type of modern Christianity. Why are the participants so insecure and unable to function on their own? How many years of brainwashing does it take to totally destroy a person’s will to think for themselves.

  66. Daisy wrote:

    I thought this next part was rude (it’s also under the ladies fashion requirements)
    No sleeveless tops…. If you shake your arms and there is a lot of movement, adjust your sleeve length to closer to your elbow.

    Obviously they haven’t heard of the pageant or royal wave.

  67. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    The tax-exempt status is the IRS certifying that the corporation meets at least the minimum standards of deserving to receive donations from the public and in return those individuals getting tax-deductible receipts for their donations.

    Brad, if the IRS disallows (?) MHC’s 501c3 status, would the donors be forced to amend their tax returns eliminating the tax deduction?

  68. @ nmgirl:

    I think you’re getting a wide eyed look at how jacked up many parts of Christianity can be. When I was in Cru I was taught that women are responsible for lust issues with guys due to how women dressed. I’ve known and heard stories where women were lectured on modesty and how to dress, and how the blame shifting took place in this culture. Many evangelicals are very insecure. They live in a black and white world with a jaded way of looking at things. They have limited exposure to the world, (i.e. gays, atheists, etc…) and as such live by limiting their contacts withdrawing into a bubble and avoiding people who would pop that bubble. Truth for evangelicals is also “ambiguous” just look at the “truth” some evangelicals tout about science and history. I have an advanced graduate degree in American History and the crap David Barton cranks out deeply disturbs me. It’s not history….it’s propaganda.

    That said there are a few Christians here and there that I like…but you have to look long and hide. I find a lot of value and importance in many atheists today. Atheists can often be nicer, honest, kinder, posses more integrity, etc… than many evangelicals. They are not as shady either. True there are fringes as fundamentalism knows no boundaries. But I think modern evangelicals need atheists, they need someone to hold their feet to the fire. They need this because many evangelicals lack the discernment to do so themselves.

  69. nmgirl wrote:

    Brad, if the IRS disallows (?) MHC’s 501c3 status, would the donors be forced to amend their tax returns eliminating the tax deduction?

    Good question. I don’t know the answer to that, maybe another reader will, nmgirl …

  70. Hester wrote:

    According to some of the Vision Forum people you should not only save your first kiss for your wedding day, but also wait to hold hands, because it’s a form of physical intimacy and is thus reserved for marriage.

    Well that’s it then. No longer any hope of heaven for me ….

  71. I have a friend who works in energy markets, and he says that attempts to influence market indices would be constituted as manipulation and subject to civil penalties plus disgorgement of undue profits. At a minimum the best seller lists should be encouraged to issue a public statement that they have uncovered credible evidence of successful efforts to falsify the index and expunge the listing for this book from the historic best seller list.

  72. @ Hester:
    I thought they were a parody at first. However, if the twitterverse is accurate, these folks really mean it. Can you imagine going to a church with this nonsense? Run…………….

  73. @ Tim:
    Hang on-I am thinking about starting a side business: You, too, can be a TWW certified Visionary Leader . Send in today for your free certificate: $79.99 S+H

  74. zooey111 wrote:

    senior citizen living on a fixed income

    Wait-you make no mention of the mandatory 10% along with another 4% to support he pastor’s missionary efforts! You must not be serious about your faith! 🙂

  75. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    The tax-exempt status is the IRS certifying that the corporation meets at least the minimum standards of deserving to receive donations from the public and in return those individuals getting tax-deductible receipts for their donations.

    I particularly like the words “minimum standards.” My husband often says: “If they won’t act like Christians, can’t they at least look like they are keeping the law asa minimum?”

  76. Godith wrote:

    At a minimum the best seller lists should be encouraged to issue a public statement that they have uncovered credible evidence of successful efforts to falsify the index and expunge the listing for this book from the historic best seller list.

    From what I understand, they have been trying to do this for a long time. I heard that when this was going on with the “Purpose Driven Life” the NYTimes created a category of “self help” books in which to dump this sort of a book.

    My guess is the company “ResultSource” probably has had legal guidance on their end. However, it is possible that the legal implications of using church money to make their pastor a “Pretender” could result in some scrutiny. Betcha Mars Hill is already paying the lawyers all kinds of money to protect their “Pretender Pastor.”

    Think about it. What kind of a man is Driscoll to need to bolster himself with a game? Does he really think he is #1 when he buys the honor?

  77. An Attorney wrote:

    “Confessions of a cheating, sinful, abusive pastor.”
    Let’s have a contest, chocolate bar for the winner, for best title for a MD written book while in Club Fed!

    I Was WRONGED.

    And for a movie screenplay, he keep team up with Jim Bakker in Wrong and Wronger.

  78. Ken wrote:

    Hester wrote:
    According to some of the Vision Forum people you should not only save your first kiss for your wedding day, but also wait to hold hands, because it’s a form of physical intimacy and is thus reserved for marriage.
    Well that’s it then. No longer any hope of heaven for me ….

    That’s it for me too…I tried to kiss every girl who would let me in HS….

  79. @ Eagle:

    I agree with you Eagle about many atheists character. My brother became devout atheist several years ago and he’s never been nice and loving before, now he is. I don’t believe he ever knew Jesus, just Calvin. I think that the more Chrstian leaders corrupt themselves, the more atheists will have integrity, it’s a devil’s delight if you ask me.

  80. Eagle wrote:

    @ nmgirl:

    I think you’re getting a wide eyed look at how jacked up many parts of Christianity can be. When I was in Cru I was taught that women are responsible for lust issues with guys due to how women dressed. I’ve known and heard stories where women were lectured on modesty and how to dress, and how the blame shifting took place in this culture. Many evangelicals are very insecure. They live in a black and white world with a jaded way of looking at things. They have limited exposure to the world, (i.e. gays, atheists, etc…) and as such live by limiting their contacts withdrawing into a bubble and avoiding people who would pop that bubble. Truth for evangelicals is also “ambiguous” just look at the “truth” some evangelicals tout about science and history. I have an advanced graduate degree in American History and the crap David Barton cranks out deeply disturbs me. It’s not history….it’s propaganda.

    That said there are a few Christians here and there that I like…but you have to look long and hide. I find a lot of value and importance in many atheists today. Atheists can often be nicer, honest, kinder, posses more integrity, etc… than many evangelicals. They are not as shady either. True there are fringes as fundamentalism knows no boundaries. But I think modern evangelicals need atheists, they need someone to hold their feet to the fire. They need this because many evangelicals lack the discernment to do so themselves.

    I’m an evangelical, a flat-out Christian, and I loathe shady activities done in the name of God. I hate those things more than any puerile faux profundities I’ve heard spoken by Christopher Hitchens or abject silliness shouted by Michael Newdow. Those people are not my enemies, nor are they the ones whom Jesus made out to be His enemies.

    Like you, I’ve noted that atheists can be much finer people than many who profess Christianity. But I think your view of Christians might be more narrow than it should, given that there are only “a few…here and there” that you like. There are some very fine, kind as heck, philanthropic, don’t care jack about sleeve length, not always pointing a bony finger at the world, laugh-at-themselves, fun-to-have-a-pint-with Christians–it’s been my experience that that constitutes most of them.

    The problem is the fakes and thugs and crackpot Pharisees, those who use religion to set up little fiefdoms, those who use it as a weapon to beat their neighbor over the head with, tend to be the ones who make all the noise. C.S. Lewis said: “Of all bad men religious bad men are the worst.” Danged right.

  81. dee wrote:

    It was legal entity when they contributed so I doubt it.

    That’s sort of what I suspected would happen to previous donations (i.e., they’d still be tax deductible for the past donors) if the IRS revokes a non-profit’s tax-exempt status.

    But then, that goes right back to the core issues of trust, and that this category of corporations with tax exemption were meant to be set up for public benefit and not for self enrichment. And the civil laws in the US sets up the IRS as the gatekeepers to ensure that the public interests are maintained. Donors give in good faith that donations will be used as advertised, and if they’re not, then …

    Anyway, this situation could be an important public learning experience for churches, ministries, and non-profits having very clearly stated plans, getting feedback before and during and after implementation, documenting activities well along the way, etc. It should be just a normal part of the processes of transparency and accountability in order to have non-toxic impact.

    I’ve been sensitized to these organizational development issues by having been in different types, some run by chaos (no minutes at board meetings, never a to-do assignment list, chasing The Next Big Idea — all in the name of creativity and freedom) and some by compliance (no updating of mission to accommodate current culture, rigid leadership hierarchies, sooo many internal rules and regs that there is no creativity or freedom). I also work with an international team that’s developing assessment tools for evaluating the qualitative impact of ministry efforts, so the teams can make course corrections to keep things transparent and on-track with the transformation they hope for. It’s based on the notion that “we measure what matters.” And it seems what was important to measure in this case could turn out to be important to the IRS in some unexpected ways.

    Anyway, as followers of Jesus Christ, we all have great hopes for Kingdom impact, don’t we? But it isn’t being a Pharisee to put some reasonable organizational structures into it, and it isn’t being an Apostle to insist on none.

  82. dee wrote:

    Eagle wrote:
    Gospel Centered Roadkill”
    Now this has play. I shall start using it in posts. Gospel Centered Roadkill!

    Mom!!

    TWW should have t-shirts made that say “I was thrown under the bus at Mars Hill” On the back it can say “Gospel Centered Roadkill” 😛

  83. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Another thought on this issue. The ordinary sheeple who made donations should be ok, but what about the willfully blind “insiders” who helped set up the fraudulent scheme?

  84. This is all so sobering. There’s a contagion of false leaders. The church is under attack. The Kingdom suffers violence!

    “Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, the person who doesn’t enter the sheepfold through the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a bandit.”

  85. Eagle wrote:

    dee wrote:
    Mom!!
    TWW should have t-shirts made that say “I was thrown under the bus at Mars Hill” On the back it can say “Gospel Centered Roadkill”

    I’d buy that. And would be proud to wear it! Unfortunately, I doubt anyone seeing me wear it would get it.

  86. Patti wrote:

    @ Eagle:
    I agree with you Eagle about many atheists character. My brother became devout atheist several years ago and he’s never been nice and loving before, now he is. I don’t believe he ever knew Jesus, just Calvin. I think that the more Chrstian leaders corrupt themselves, the more atheists will have integrity, it’s a devil’s delight if you ask me.

    Patti, this is what is drawing me out of Calvinism. There are some genuinely kind people in those churches, however, the majority of the out-spoken leaders, and many of the young men coming out of the seminaries, are absolutely hateful. I hate the direction the reformed/calvinist churches are going.

  87. K.D. wrote:

    Ken wrote:

    Hester wrote:
    According to some of the Vision Forum people you should not only save your first kiss for your wedding day, but also wait to hold hands, because it’s a form of physical intimacy and is thus reserved for marriage.
    Well that’s it then. No longer any hope of heaven for me ….

    That’s it for me too…I tried to kiss every girl who would let me in HS….

    Well it is such a good thing that Jesus never hung out with prostitutes or anything, giving those who have sexually misbehaved any false hope….

  88. nmgirl wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    Can someone explain to me how ANY adult would let a someone else micromanage how they dress? This is the part I really don’t understand about this type of modern Christianity. Why are the participants so insecure and unable to function on their own? How many years of brainwashing does it take to totally destroy a person’s will to think for themselves.

    Speaking as a former wearer-of-only-dresses (how is that for a description?!), I believed VF/DP and the SAHM/Quiverfull crowd when they relentlessly filled my head what is and is not proper for a woman to wear. Honestly, just like the other ways I followed this crowd, it was because I craved a set of “rules” that would make it easier for me to live my “Christian” life. I am by nature someone who follows lists and I am also a perfectionist. I see things black and white, instead of in a myriad of colors. VF presented a seemingly easy way to provide a way to what I felt was the most pure Christian life for me and my kids and husband.

    We left that thinking 4-5 years ago and I will never remember seeing the look of shock and disgust when I encountered church friends who saw me wearing jeans when I was out on a date with my husband. I am so grateful that I eventually saw the harm of these teachings.

  89. nmgirl wrote:

    @ No More Perfect:
    having all my life in the windy state: Texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico, it is a lot more indecent to wear a skirt rather than pants on most days.

    I agree! And the girls always climbed trees, ran, and rode bikes in skirts. Well, things “show” when you do those things in skirts, so then we had to add extra layers – bike shorts, leggings, etc. – underneath. The whole thing is ridiculous. And this was in TX. :-/

  90. Even if an organization is a 501(c)(3) when you contributed, that doesn’t mean your donations are tax-deductible. For example, a gift directed to the specific benefit of a particular person within that organization is not deductible. I don’t know exactly what went on in the pay-for-NYT-Bestseller-status fiasco, what the people of Mars Hill knew and when, but if they knew their donations were going to support Driscoll’s book sales or prop up a false impression of him as a Bestseller Phenom that would inure to his benefit, then those donations very likely would not be tax deductible, and the nonprofit status of the organization to which they “donated” would not shield them from this fact at all.

    This happens when a church takes a “love offering” for a pastor or missionary, or when you donate in the name of someone or other–that stuff is not tax deductible. If what Mars Hill did was that type of offering–and I do not have enough facts before me to make that judgment–then no tax deduction allowed, and if Mars Hill sent out those tax deduction receipts including that on it, and then did so knowingly, then that’s tax fraud.

  91. nmgirl … that’s a good question to ask an attorney and/or police officer about, since it sounds like you’re asking about illegal activities — whether willingly or unwittingly done.

    Sidenote: In doing some background reading on inurement, I ran across the following site, which is “A Guide to Federal Tax Issues for Colleges and Universities.” So it isn’t directly for churches and ministries, but it deals with a lot of non-profit and tax-exempt issues, so I’m assuming it’s relevant. It overviews technical definitions and also gives a series of examples, which makes it very helpful to see what can go wrong and constitute inurement. It’s one thing to get a bunch of description, but the examples help demonstrate the principles or problems in action.

    http://www.federaltaxissues.com/0300_private/0310_private_principles.php

    Anyway, in trying to learn from this case at Mars Hill, here’s a key thing I’m getting from all of what I’m reading: When the boundaries between those who serve and those who benefit from the service get blurry, you’ve potentially got a problem. Or, as I’ve seen before in my experiences with some non-profits, there’s a terminal illness in the system when you can’t tell the shareholders (directors of the service/ministry) from the stakeholders (recipients of service/ministry). And that’s what it looks like when a CEO or board of directors or the trustees act like they “own” the company and they control it.

    Read even the first section of that guide linked to above, and see what you think …

    Makes me wonder if inurement is a *potential* problem ANY TIME you have a celebrity pastor or “charismatic leader” directly in charge of a church or non-profit as CEO, or indirectly in charge through mega-influence. That’s part of why the questions about (for churches) elders, accountability boards, or the like keep coming up. As overseers for both the ministry AND as officers for the non-profit corporation, they are subject to both the mandates of the New Testament for qualified leadership and oversight of the flock AND the mandates of criminal and civil law, aren’t they? (That’s been one of the huge issues in the Sovereign Grace Ministries lawsuits, for instance, because of alleged refusal to report known/suspected child abuse situations to the legal authorities … in the name of not harming the reputation of the church etc etc.)

    And neither supposed biblical mandates nor sincere Kingdom motivations trump U.S. law when we seek to make an impact through our ministry organizations — but fail to live up to the standards expected of us as citizens.

  92. Godith wrote:

    I have a friend who works in energy markets, and he says that attempts to influence market indices would be constituted as manipulation and subject to civil penalties plus disgorgement of undue profits. At a minimum the best seller lists should be encouraged to issue a public statement that they have uncovered credible evidence of successful efforts to falsify the index and expunge the listing for this book from the historic best seller list.

    It’s called Fraud on the Market, it’s covered under SEC Rule 10b-5. I started writing on it years ago, another of the failed, aborted academic papers littering my hard drive–got no pub out of it. But the potential application to non-profits and situations has me intrigued, never thought of that. Now realize 10b-5 applies only to publicly-traded companies, but what about the publicly-traded publishing house that prints up and markets the book, if they collaborate with the crooked pastor to manipulate sales–does that fall under 10b-5? Now also realize it’s tied in with the purchase or sale of securities, and there’d be the sticking point. Manipulating sales like that’s a little different from the Enron-type manipulation of the markets, so I don’t know. In any event, you might well have fraudulent misrepresentation going on in the NYT bestseller scheme, but I’m struggling to find one who has standing to sue–maybe the NYT?

  93. Eagle wrote:

    “Gospel Centered Roadkill”

    And the Mars Hill version

    We support the Mars Hill bus and resulting “Gospel Centered Roadkill”. Because Mark Driscoll is too important and busy working for Jesus to be concerned about a little collateral damage.

  94. LawProf wrote:

    LawProf

    Thanks for that info LawProf.

    As a research writer, sometimes I think it’s more helpful to study up so as to ask better questions than overfocus on speculations about the ways that things might be, when the answers are available out there but it takes someone with expertise to interpret the technical legalese.

    I suspect a whole lot more technical questions are on the way, given how complex and interwoven the internal working relationships and bylaws infrastructures seem to be among leadership at Mars Hill, and the potential involvements here of individuals, LLC, and non-profit in this particular situation.

  95. LawProf wrote:

    Even if an organization is a 501(c)(3) when you contributed, that doesn’t mean your donations are tax-deductible. For example, a gift directed to the specific benefit of a particular person within that organization is not deductible. I don’t know exactly what went on in the pay-for-NYT-Bestseller-status fiasco, what the people of Mars Hill knew and when, but if they knew their donations were going to support Driscoll’s book sales or prop up a false impression of him as a Bestseller Phenom that would inure to his benefit, then those donations very likely would not be tax deductible, and the nonprofit status of the organization to which they “donated” would not shield them from this fact at all.

    This happens when a church takes a “love offering” for a pastor or missionary, or when you donate in the name of someone or other–that stuff is not tax deductible. If what Mars Hill did was that type of offering–and I do not have enough facts before me to make that judgment–then no tax deduction allowed, and if Mars Hill sent out those tax deduction receipts including that on it, and then did so knowingly, then that’s tax fraud.

    Let me amend: I don’t think it would matter if the donors knew–the question would be, I think, whether the whole scheme was set up for the particular benefit of Driscoll, whether the donors were ignorant of the secret scheme or not. At least, that’s my understanding. Do you know the answer, “An Attorney”?

  96. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    LawProf wrote:

    LawProf

    Thanks for that info LawProf.

    As a research writer, sometimes I think it’s more helpful to study up so as to ask better questions than overfocus on speculations about the ways that things might be, when the answers are available out there but it takes someone with expertise to interpret the technical legalese.

    I suspect a whole lot more technical questions are on the way, given how complex and interwoven the internal working relationships and bylaws infrastructures seem to be among leadership at Mars Hill, and the potential involvements here of individuals, LLC, and non-profit in this particular situation.

    You seem to know how to navigate this stuff, you’re absolutely right in your earlier post about the blurry lines, in a corporate context that sets up all sorts of difficult situations, piercing the corporate veil, potential loss of tax exempt status, etc. Feel free to PM me, if there’s a way of doing it here. If you’d ever consider collaboration on some research, maybe that might “inure” to both of our benefits.

  97. @ me:
    Good shot. I have been tied up last evening and this morning, and had connection problems earlier due to high winds in the neighborhood. Will try later to compile the entries and let people rate them.

  98. An Attorney wrote:

    An Attorney

    I try to avoid snark, and yet there is a point to be made to counter foolishness with foolishness. Hence, my entry into the book title contest, FWIW.

  99. LawProf wrote:

    how to navigate this stuff,

    I had to learn the hard way, both by being in not-so-great non-profits that raised a lot of questions where I had to figure out what to do, and also being in some really great non-profits where you had to figure out how to keep it sustainable.

    I’ll think about your offer on collaboration … one never knows. But at the moment, I’m trying to finish up the first book in a curriculum related to training the next generation of culture readers, futurists, church planters, and social activists/entrepreneurs. My brain is booked — literally and figuratively — for a looong time to come …

  100. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    LawProf wrote:

    how to navigate this stuff,

    I had to learn the hard way, both by being in not-so-great non-profits that raised a lot of questions where I had to figure out what to do, and also being in some really great non-profits where you had to figure out how to keep it sustainable.

    I’ll think about your offer on collaboration … one never knows. But at the moment, I’m trying to finish up the first book in a curriculum related to training the next generation of culture readers, futurists, church planters, and social activists/entrepreneurs. My brain is booked — literally and figuratively — for a looong time to come …

    Fair enough, keep me posted.

  101. @ Beakerj:
    Yes, the purity has got to be something on the inside, it cannot be produced by external rules. Rules may even hinder rather than help, possibly even inciting temptation. Just imagine the false guilt of pre-marital holding hands!

    Is it OK to hold hands if you are wearing gloves or mittens, and if so, just how thick do they need to be?

    That said, this whole issue of possibly revealing clothing is clearly something that TWW should look into ….

  102. @ brad/futuristguy:

    Non-profits are generally supposed to have a board of non-compensated persons (other than expense to attend the meeting and perhaps refreshments or a meal together) that make the decisions about who will be the CEO, pay, etc., and receive audited reports on expenditures, income, etc. There are also rules about how CEO pay should be determined. That board will have a chairperson as well. The CEO and other paid personnel may attend, but the voting board must consist of non-paid individuals! Most churches have budget and personnel committees, and a board of trustees as well. Elevation avoids some of this with its external accountability board. I am not certain how Mars Hill handles this one. I suspect that a lot of churches are in violation of the general rules.

  103. @ LawProf:

    If it were not disclosed that the purpose was to benefit Driscoll by hyping book sales, then the money was obtained under false pretenses, and the persons who put together the plea would be guilty of fraud. Secondly, the church would likely have sent out false gift statements, which is a fraud as well and clearly barred by the IRS rules. So a lot of Mars Hill staff could readily be under the IRS bus compliments on being on the Mars Hill employee bus!!!

  104. nmgirl wrote:

    Can someone explain to me how ANY adult would let a someone else micromanage how they dress?

    I have worked several regular jobs (non churchy, non Christian jobs) over my life, including professional full time jobs to minimum wage sales clerk jobs (when younger), and while some of the employee handbooks had one or two sticklers in them (most stores won’t allow you to wear buttons with political or religious messages on them, for example), they were, overall, much less stringent, and a lot less long, than that church’s worship team clothing requirement list.

    You would think a church would be able to trust their staff, or volunteers, to dress appropriately, as most of my secular jobs did.

  105. dee wrote:

    Think about it. What kind of a man is Driscoll to need to bolster himself with a game? Does he really think he is #1 when he buys the honor?

    I think he does, or would not be surprised. I get the impression he is willing to stretch the truth, or buy into his own publicity, when I heard him on the Mefferd show.

    Even though Driscoll’s people requested to be on the Mefferd show, when he was on her show, he acted like it was the opposite.

    Driscoll said something to Mefferd on air such as, “You’re lucky I agreed to do your show,” or, “I’m doing you a favor by being on your show.” He made it sound like she begged him to be on her program, and he, big famous guy with bigger fish to fry, condescended to be on he little ol’ radio show, so she should back off and act grateful. If he’s going to be deceptive like that about her show, I wouldn’t put it past him to be that way about the book sales thing.

  106. nmgirl wrote:

    How many years of brainwashing does it take to totally destroy a person’s will to think for themselves.

    I don’t have a definitive answer to that. For me, after 23 years I was thoroughly cooked. Two years out I’m doing much better. TWW and another blog have been my therapy.

  107. @ nmgirl:
    I asked that question with regard to the Ronald Weinland case and was told “probably not”. How do you allocate that kind of disallowance? It starts to get mind boggling.

  108. Daisy wrote:

    dee wrote:

    Think about it. What kind of a man is Driscoll to need to bolster himself with a game? Does he really think he is #1 when he buys the honor?

    I think he does, or would not be surprised. I get the impression he is willing to stretch the truth, or buy into his own publicity, when I heard him on the Mefferd show.

    Even though Driscoll’s people requested to be on the Mefferd show, when he was on her show, he acted like it was the opposite.

    Driscoll said something to Mefferd on air such as, “You’re lucky I agreed to do your show,” or, “I’m doing you a favor by being on your show.” He made it sound like she begged him to be on her program, and he, big famous guy with bigger fish to fry, condescended to be on he little ol’ radio show, so she should back off and act grateful. If he’s going to be deceptive like that about her show, I wouldn’t put it past him to be that way about the book sales thing.

    You have to realize that sociopaths or those afflicted with NPD often come to believe in their own lies.

  109. No More Perfect wrote:

    We left that thinking 4-5 years ago and I will never remember seeing the look of shock and disgust when I encountered church friends who saw me wearing jeans when I was out on a date with my husband. I am so grateful that I eventually saw the harm of these teachings.

    I wonder if those same churches are just as judgmental about a total newcomer who wanders into their church wearing jeans? If they cut the new person slack on that, why would they be willing to let that new person have more liberty than a long time Christian?

    The nit picky rules about dress and so forth remind me of the ridiculous rules Pharisees had about everything.

    Jesus often told the Pharisees that they were in the wrong and carrying things too far (by adding their nit picky rules onto God’s Word, or twisting it), but you see some Christian churches and denominations today who are repeating the errors of the Pharisees on that score.

    This reminds me, a Christian who was interviewed recommended a book called The Seduction of Extremes by Peter Kurowski, where the book discusses the Christian tendency to either go too far into legalism and rule keeping, or the Antinomianism route of blowing off all rules and law, favoring grace to the point Christians live in constant sin and think it’s okay.

    I haven’t read the book myself, but I may want to get it eventually. I’ve noticed a lot of Christians do tend to go to one extreme or the other, either too much grace, or too much law.

  110. @ Dan Youngerling:
    The principal of sowing and reaping will come back to haunt “Pastor” Mark soon I promise you. As for doing the work I think we all know who really wrote his books, it has been well documented and those folks will never see a dime. When you steal from others eventually you are found out. That is happening now and as he hides and circles his wagons more of the truth comes to light. I can tell you many of my christian friends will NEVER own another “Pastor” Mark book unless they need something for toilet paper. I pray that one day you wake up Dan before the day the bus is parked on top of you and your family.

  111. I work for an evil too big to fail bank (although the bank has been the best thing to happen to me employmentwise, so not really so evil) and I’m wearing jeans today. That said, I work in a locked-down building with roving security guards and cameras and no public to say of. So I don’t reflect badly in my employer.

  112. nmgirl wrote:

    Obviously they haven’t heard of the pageant or royal wave.

    I’m assuming Morris’ Gateway church doesn’t like bingo arms. (bingo arms defined).

    They’re basically penalizing women who are either older, or out of shape, who don’t visit the gym weekly to get toned arms, or women who, thanks to family genes, have flabbier upper arms that jiggle than most other women.

    I wonder why they don’t have a similar anti-tank top rule for the males, that “if you don’t have the muscular physique of (insert name of muscle bound, current action male movie star here) with muscular biceps, don’t wear a tank top to our church.”

  113. Daisy wrote:

    I wonder why they don’t have a similar anti-tank top rule for the males, that “if you don’t have the muscular physique of (insert name of muscle bound, current action male movie star here) with muscular biceps, don’t wear a tank top to our church.”

    Sounds like that rule from Rostler’s Rules for Masquerades:

    “Spandex has an upper weight limit.”

    Or they could take off their tank top and go bare-pec’ed a la Vladimir Putin.

  114. rebeccalynn wrote:

    I pray that one day you wake up Dan before the day the bus is parked on top of you and your family.

    You mean before Dan outlives his usefulness to Gigapastor Mark?

  115. Daisy wrote:

    This reminds me, a Christian who was interviewed recommended a book called The Seduction of Extremes by Peter Kurowski, where the book discusses the Christian tendency to either go too far into legalism and rule keeping, or the Antinomianism route of blowing off all rules and law, favoring grace to the point Christians live in constant sin and think it’s okay.

    “The Devil sends temptations in matched opposing pairs, so that in fleeing one we embrace the other.” — C.S.Lewis

  116. LawProf wrote:

    You have to realize that sociopaths or those afflicted with NPD often come to believe in their own lies.

    As Mercedes Lackey wrote about her main villain in one of her fantasy novels:
    “His cosmos has room only for Himself.”

  117. LawProf wrote:

    C.S. Lewis said: “Of all bad men religious bad men are the worst.” Danged right.

    “Nothing’s worse than a monster who thinks he’s right with God.”
    — Captain Mal Reynolds, Free Trader Serenity

  118. Daisy wrote:

    No More Perfect wrote:
    We left that thinking 4-5 years ago and I will never remember seeing the look of shock and disgust when I encountered church friends who saw me wearing jeans when I was out on a date with my husband. I am so grateful that I eventually saw the harm of these teachings.
    I wonder if those same churches are just as judgmental about a total newcomer who wanders into their church wearing jeans? If they cut the new person slack on that, why would they be willing to let that new person have more liberty than a long time Christian?
    The nit picky rules about dress and so forth remind me of the ridiculous rules Pharisees had about everything.
    Jesus often told the Pharisees that they were in the wrong and carrying things too far (by adding their nit picky rules onto God’s Word, or twisting it), but you see some Christian churches and denominations today who are repeating the errors of the Pharisees on that score.
    This reminds me, a Christian who was interviewed recommended a book called The Seduction of Extremes by Peter Kurowski, where the book discusses the Christian tendency to either go too far into legalism and rule keeping, or the Antinomianism route of blowing off all rules and law, favoring grace to the point Christians live in constant sin and think it’s okay.
    I haven’t read the book myself, but I may want to get it eventually. I’ve noticed a lot of Christians do tend to go to one extreme or the other, either too much grace, or too much law.

    I really don’t know how the folks at my church treated newcomer women in pants because the only visitors we ever had were ladies in dresses and skirts. At least that I recall. I *do* know that some churches have done the bait-and-switch: welcoming families with women and girls in pants and once they are members or have attended a long time, then the pharisee-ism kicks in.

    I have come to the conclusion, and I may be wrong and I haven’t completely fleshed out the issue yet, is that Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to make a completely new one. So any churches or organizations that have a list of petty rules on clothing, beauty, etc., are automatically not going to be a part of my life.

    I am going to have to check that book out, after I have finished Young, Restless, No Longer Reformed.

  119. Mara wrote:

    We support the Mars Hill bus and resulting “Gospel Centered Roadkill”. Because Mark Driscoll is too important and busy working for Jesus to be concerned about a little collateral damage.

    And like Citizen Robespierre and Comrade Pol Pot, the Perfect Omelette is so Righteous it justifies breaking more and more and more eggs to bring it about.

  120. nmgirl wrote:

    How many years of brainwashing does it take to totally destroy a person’s will to think for themselves?

    Ask the Kims of North Korea.

  121. @ An Attorney:
    Hmm….interesting. my ex-pastor is the president of his church’s board (yes, he calls it his church), and his wife is the board secretary (legal title, not employee position). Now, he is paid a salary set by the board and she, as the church administrator, is also paid as determined by the board. I’m not sure where it stands now, but iirc, it was close to $100,000 a year collectively from a church with an average of 260 – 300 on a sunday morning…..that was 8 years ago.

  122. @ Eagle:
    @ No More Perfect:

    SpiritualSoundingBoard. Like TWW, Julie Anne’s blog can engage in some healthy debate, but is also supportive of abuse survivors. Her experience with Patriarchy is also similar to mine.

  123. An Attorney wrote:

    Non-profits are generally supposed to have a board of non-compensated persons (other than expense to attend the meeting and perhaps refreshments or a meal together) that make the decisions about who will be the CEO, pay, etc., and receive audited reports on expenditures, income, etc. There are also rules about how CEO pay should be determined. That board will have a chairperson as well. The CEO and other paid personnel may attend, but the voting board must consist of non-paid individuals! Most churches have budget and personnel committees, and a board of trustees as well. Elevation avoids some of this with its external accountability board. I am not certain how Mars Hill handles this one. I suspect that a lot of churches are in violation of the general rules.

    Thanks An Attorney. That’s helpful information. This post at Warren Throckmorton’s blog analyzes some of the details in the Mars Hill by-laws. It also contains a link to a PDF of their by-laws, and there have been some important insights and questions about seeming contradictions in them, as posted by a commenter who seems to have been an MH insider.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/03/10/amended-and-restated-by-laws-of-mars-hill-church/

    Anyway, I’m reminded of a blog post from about a decade ago entitled, “We know more than our pastor.” The main idea was that a congregation always knows more than any single leader over it. Similarly here, it takes the equivalent of a “human MRI” to composite the angles needed to get a more full picture of the contours and inner workings, toward diagnosing what’s wrong. For the sake of the Kingdom, I hope their system can be healed, but it appears from the years of evidence accumulating that this may indeed be extremely difficult.

  124. As a committed attender at Mars Hill, we are standing up for the truth just like Pastor Mark has always done. This is a case of poor judgement…nothing more and nothing less.

    This is not Watergate, Benghazi, or other ‘scandals’ that Americans love to drool on.

    There is “no there…there”.

    I sincerely appreciate your hunger for truth and righteousness, we sincerely seek that at Mars Hill Church. However, you are looking under bushes for demons that don’t exist.

    Your preoccupation with Pastor Mark causes us to consider if you are secretly attracted to him? Most of the bitterness and hatred in this world is because of misappropriated affection.

    Thank you for your concern about my church. I encourage you to chase other rabbits in other holes, I am sure you have important things to do like listen to Ergun Canter sermons and find where he made a few mistakes too. So go on about the “Kingdom” business, we hope you feel good about yourself. We are safe in Jesus’s arms and have no concerns about the direction of our Leadership and our Church.

  125. Here’s a thought…..Since Mark Driscoll uses Docent to put together his sermons, plagiarizetimeerial and re-sell books, and does celebrity photo shots with the Seahawks…. what exactly DOES he do? All this free time and what does he do? Basically nothing…

  126. Paul Recorde, I’ve been to your church. You should be concerned. I was concerned long before I ever knew the Wartburg Watch even existed. It was seriously one of the coldest most inhospitable churches I’ve ever been to. I attended on Christmas.

    Sooner or later you are going to have to stop running around putting out fires for Mars Hill. It won’t be long before you’ll be forced to recognize that that church system, as it is set up, is the flame thrower.

    Wartburg Watch could close tomorrow and you’d still have a giant problem on your hands.

  127. @ Paul Recorde:
    Sorry, Paul. No go. your pastor runs around to conferences, jumps up and down to be recognized, insults Christians in the UK, sticks his face on The View-pretending to be a #1 Best Seller, and too many other public things to list.

    He went public and this is not about you and your nice church any longer. It is of public interest. We are pleased you are safe in the arms of Jesus but that has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

    This is more than a case of “bad judgment.” You do need to check the legal implications.

    Paul Recorde wrote:

    auses us to consider if you are secretly attracted to him?

    ROFL. The Micky Mouse shirt and necklace lost us a long time ago. Secondly the way he speaks of his wife, Grace, in Real Marriage is downright disgusting.

    Also, you do know that you are using hackneyed terms (bitter, hatred) which immediately label you as just another ho hum authoritarian that cannot use real arguments to bolster your case. You have a real problem in Driscoll. You have for a long, long time. There are many people under the bus.

    You did not once show any concern about wonderful people like Bent Meyer and Paul Petry and that, in itself, lets us know exactly who you are.

  128. chris wrote:

    Sooner or later you are going to have to stop running around putting out fires for Mars Hill.

    I am truly impressed at the numbers of people who are trying to defend Mars Hill. But, the two of us are information people. We need to see explanations along with links. These poor people have nothing to prove their point of view. So, they used hackneyed terms like bitterness and hatred which labels them immediately.

    They have all been stick in a church which uses “words” to alienate people and they do not know how they sound to outsiders. It is very sad. They appear to have lost the ability to give a “reason” for the hope that they have in Mark Driscoll.

  129. @ dee:
    Of course, Paul, just like Dan Youngerling and several fellows on the prior thread, are parodies– not authentic Martians. You can get a good reading on the real Driscoll-defending from real Martians in comments on the Dave Kraft blog.

  130. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Make that multiple commenters who appear to be/have been MH insiders

    For what it’s worth, as a former Acts29 insider, I can say that it is remarkable the extent to which my particular A29 church replicated the issues and problems currently being exposed at home base (i.e. Mars Hill). You could almost cut and paste the names and leave everything else.

  131. I hope Steven Furtick is paying very close attention to the Driscoll situation. I have a friend who attends his church. She is in a very desperate situation and unfortunately looks to his teaching for comfort. She even defends his mega-mansion. I just bite my tongue. With websites like this one that keeps people informed, I believe these type of churches will start to crumble. The Church of Scientology got away with horrible behavior, but people were afraid of being sued ( the church is very litigious). Now with the Internet, information is easier to obtain about the truth about Scientology (forced abortions, child labor, etc). I believe leaders like Driscoll, Furtick,Phillips etc. are being “outed” much sooner because of blogs like yours. Thank you for this service! Ann

  132. Mr.H wrote:

    For what it’s worth, as a former Acts29 insider, I can say that it is remarkable the extent to which my particular A29 church replicated the issues and problems currently being exposed at home base (i.e. Mars Hill). You could almost cut and paste the names and leave everything else.

    This, sadly, does not surprise me. Everyone thought Driscoll had it going on.

  133. Ann wrote:

    The Church of Scientology got away with horrible behavior, but people were afraid of being sued ( the church is very litigious). Now with the Internet, information is easier to obtain about the truth about Scientology (forced abortions, child labor, etc).

    Don’t forget the South Park Skewering; before that broadcast on Comedy Central, most people only knew about Scientology indirectly, or just as a name. And the public accusations of “BIGOTRY!” and pulling of strings to get the reruns banned just added to the publicity. HAIL XENU!

  134. @ Paul Recorde:
    I love it!!!! How narcissistic of you…we must be “attracted” to him? I am slightly ill at that thought. You have been taught well young padawan. As one of those ran over repeatedly by the acts 29 Mark Driscoll bus, your attitude and comments are made to insult and diminish true Marky D style. Is it because this site is run by women that feel safe to be so patronizing? Would you have made such a comment if it was men? I mean Mark is comfortable with sodomy so you must be making this comment on all the blogs right? Or are Deb and Dee just special. The rotting stench coming from the edifice of Mars Hill cannot be ignored by anyone in our faith any longer. More and more will come out in the coming months, and you sir will one day have your blind eyes opened. I only pray that God has mercy on those who continue to blindly follow, obey and never question the comrade….

  135. Paul Recorde wrote:

    This is a case of poor judgement…nothing more and nothing less.

    No, my dislike and distrust of Driscoll is based not just on the story featured on this page, but on a pattern of bad behavior that goes back several years.

    Everything from his sexism against women, talking about having “porno-visions,” chuckling at abusing people when mentioning them being thrown under the bus, teaching that Esther of the OT was a harlot, teaching that husbands are owed oral sex by their wives (and at that supposedly based on a twisted reading of Song of Songs), the plagiarism, and several other incidents.

  136. @ Dave A A:

    If these guys are parodies, no offense, but they need to make it a little more obvious.

    A parody should not be so dead pan it reads as real and sincere to the average reader. There needs to be a little wink or nod or goofiness in the post somewhere to clue folks in it is a joke, and I don’t see that in some of these posts.

  137. Daisy wrote:

    Everything from his sexism against women, talking about having “porno-visions,” chuckling at abusing people when mentioning them being thrown under the bus, teaching that Esther of the OT was a harlot, teaching that husbands are owed oral sex by their wives (and at that supposedly based on a twisted reading of Song of Songs), the plagiarism, and several other incidents.

    And we shouldn’t forget the numerous complaints years ago about his “potty mouth” pastor identity.

    http://defendingcontending.com/2009/06/24/i%E2%80%99ve-had-it-with-mark-driscoll-and-his-mouth-now-it%E2%80%99s-personal/

  138. Mr.H wrote:

    For what it’s worth, as a former Acts29 insider, I can say that it is remarkable the extent to which my particular A29 church replicated the issues and problems currently being exposed at home base (i.e. Mars Hill). You could almost cut and paste the names and leave everything else.

    That is not a surprise, Mr. H. The “spiritual/cultural DNA” from Mars Hill will replicate elsewhere, especially in any venture that is or has been directly and officially linked in with it — or when others have been enamored by it. Even if it mutates some, it’s still an offshoot of that original organizational genetic material. And if those genes were toxic, well …

    FWIW, in my writings on how to work toward creating a safe place of common ground for people to serve together — whether that’s a church or non-profit — I’ve had to look at the opposite issues, of what makes it a toxic and traumatic system. I’ve boiled it down to four key problems that create UNsafe spaces for work or ministry. Any one of these four elements, or any combination, can inflict abuse of power and otherwise harm participants and recipients, even if/when the organization has come together to try to do good. It usually starts with an authoritarian leader, but even if that person goes off the scene, there is typically a lot left in his/her wake that carries the malignancy forward.

    1. LEADERS. Someone who wants/needs to control others, knows how to inspire/motivate others, and bring people under his/her spell by looks, teachings, charisma, other giftings.

    2. INFRASTRUCTURES. Look at the number of documents that have surfaced in the past few years related to the official ways that Mars Hill is run. Even if there was a partial rapture tomorrow and all the current Board members of this non-profit were out of the picture, the organizational strategies and infrastructures they devised are still codified in the non-profit’s constitution, by-laws, processes, procedures, covenant documents, legal agreements with multi-site partners, personnel systems, non-disclosure agreements, website structures, spin-off organizations like Acts29, etc. etc. etc. Because of the legal nature of some of these things, they can’t just summarily be thrown out, they have to be worked out within the current system and then changed. And who is going to do that without recreating a similar system or reinforcing the previous one? There might not be a capable AND qualified person available — especially because of the next two things.

    3. CULTURE OF PASSIVITY. With a dominant and/or dominating leader(s) running the show, it only works as people are “conditioned” to be passive. They trust the leaders and do what they say, or do nothing. It becomes a culture of “learned helplessness” and not thinking for one’s self. So … if those leaders are no longer in the picture, the culture doesn’t suddenly flip to normal — passivity is the default, and it will take a long time and a lot of effort to change the entire organizational culture once it’s become ingrained.

    4. PARADIGM SYSTEM/PROCESSING. When the dominant way of processing information is black-or-white, either/or, and heavily “J” on Myers-Briggs, then it’s about figuring out what separates this from that, us from them, coming to conclusions quickly and decisively. And while moderate forms of this are *necessary* to everyday functioning for individuals and groups, too much creates an impossibly toxic environment at every level. It creates a win/lose scenario in all elements of the paradigm — beliefs/theology, values, strategies, structures, cultures, and collaboration styles. And this happens regardless of who is involved, who leads it, where in the world it’s located.

    In case you don’t know my story and why I studied this, I’ve survived three church splits (NONE of which I was a central figure in!), and numerous malignant ministries. Some spiritually abusive leaders controlled by chaos where everything changed so often you were disoriented and the only thing to cling to was the leader. Others controlled by compliance, with rigid rules and regulations and no grace. So to understand the symptoms and flashbacks I was having (post-traumatic stress, but didn’t know what that was until later) and to assure myself that I was not crazy or the cause of the abuse, I had to work through all that. So, hopefully my conclusions will help others who have questions.

  139. rebeccalynn wrote:

    your attitude and comments are made to insult and diminish true Marky D style. Is it because this site is run by women that feel safe to be so patronizing?

    It is this attitude that disqualifies Mark Driscoll from being even an elder or deacon, let alone a pastor.
    And it is this attitude that disqualifies Paul Recorde from being taken the least bit seriously.
    So, if he’s a parody, then congrats for getting MDFanboy down to a science.
    If he really is an actual committed Mars Hill attender, then he is to be pitied for his lack of spiritual understanding and discernment.

  140. @ rebeccalynn:

    “The rotting stench coming from the edifice of Mars Hill cannot be ignored by anyone…”
    ++++++++++++++

    perhaps “orifice” is the better word?

  141. @a Mara:
    I agree with you Mara. This man deserves our pity as do anyone of these folks so indoctrinated that they will never see the ugly truth of this man. What I could not let go unchallenged was the very patronizing stance that seems so typical of the male fanboys of Mark. We women must be led by our libido’s, or somehow we just aren’t smart enough to think for ourselves or even have a theological conversation. We certainly cannot be allowed to step outside their definition of women’s roles in the church. Really just fed up with all the machismo and male posturing. Had to point it out thats all. Unless he is accusing anyone on their blog of having an “attraction” for Marky D then his remark was very sexist and hateful. We all know however that irregardless of Mark’s acceptance of sodomy none of his rabid fanboys would ever besmirch his name in such a way, right? snark.snark.

  142. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    3. CULTURE OF PASSIVITY. With a dominant and/or dominating leader(s) running the show, it only works as people are “conditioned” to be passive. They trust the leaders and do what they say, or do nothing. It becomes a culture of “learned helplessness” and not thinking for one’s self. So … if those leaders are no longer in the picture, the culture doesn’t suddenly flip to normal — passivity is the default, and it will take a long time and a lot of effort to change the entire organizational culture once it’s become ingrained.

    Exactly!

    Passivity is a natural result of not allowing membership (such as in Calvary Chapels,) whereby there is no recourse for anyone who encounters an issue of any magnitude, short of being able to call the police.

    Our corrupt pastor was exposed and creatively removed. The passive congregants are still there, passively leaving the thinking to the new CC pastor. Zero outreach to those who were thrown out of the church, slandered and shunned on the word of the corrupt pastor, even though they now know the pastor habitually lied and had reason to remove whistle blowers. I know, because I was one of them.

  143. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    4. PARADIGM SYSTEM/PROCESSING. When the dominant way of processing information is black-or-white, either/or, and heavily “J” on Myers-Briggs, then it’s about figuring out what separates this from that, us from them, coming to conclusions quickly and decisively. And while moderate forms of this are *necessary* to everyday functioning for individuals and groups, too much creates an impossibly toxic environment at every level.

    At another Calvary Chapel I was introduced to the Meyer’s Briggs’ Assessment 25 years ago. It became clear that they were looking for J’s. Their right hand men/women parroted how the husband and wife pastoral team had gifts from gawd in that they made quick assessments and decisions. No mention of how wrong they often were, or that they missed much of what they needed by cutting out the other personalities from being in leadership. No one was thinking things through carefully or compassionately.

  144. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Anyway, I’m reminded of a blog post from about a decade ago entitled, “We know more than our pastor.” The main idea was that a congregation always knows more than any single leader over it. Similarly here, it takes the equivalent of a “human MRI” to composite the angles needed to get a more full picture of the contours and inner workings, toward diagnosing what’s wrong.

    So well put! I ran into this with two non-profit private schools. Each woman who started their school thought they could assess the problems accurately by themselves, or with a couple other board members. Each, in the end, minimized and dismissed many of the parent’s concerns. In the end, smug in their assessments, their schools suffered. They were wrong.

    Saw the same issues in small IFB church leadership, same in a medium size Bible Church, as well as in medium and mega sized Calvary Chapels. A leader(s) would decide they could see all angles and make the best decision. Interesting how their decisions always ended up in their own best interests.

  145. rebeccalynn wrote:

    his remark was very sexist and hateful.

    He may have meant for it to be sexist, hateful, and patronizing.
    But the truth is, it was ignorant, projecting his own sin, and revealing of his own lusts.

    Yeah, I used to engage these guys back in the day. I took them head on and showed no mercy, revealing how biblically illiterate they were and how much of a false teacher their idol really was.

    Why?
    Because:

    A.) If I showed any mercy, it would confirm to them that I was the weak woman they wanted me to be. I refused to be their stereotypical woman.

    B.) It didn’t matter what I said to them, really. They dismissed everything I said out of hand because I was a woman.

    C.) I said it more for the people watching than the MDFanboys. I said it for the burdened, broken lurkers who needed to see these shallow, ignorant, machismo airbags for what they were. Their shining, ‘relevant’, hipster towers were build on the sand of Mark Driscoll’s twisted mind and had little to nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Paul Recorde trying to be sexist and hateful falls flat here, outside Dricoll Land. Neither he nor his little god have any power here no matter how hateful, sexist, patronizing and insulting they try to be. And this really ticks them off.

  146. Mara wrote:

    and how much of a false teacher their idol really was.

    Oh yes, I did call Mark Driscoll a false teacher.
    I sat through a video of him teaching on the Song of Solomon.
    All human teachers are imperfect and do make errors. Hopefully they learn from them and correct them.
    No true teacher of the Word would have dared make error after error after error over such a small section of Scripture and pass off all these errors as great revelations that the whole world so desperately needs.
    Driscoll is not a Bible teacher. He never has been. He makes the Bible say what he wants it to say and passes off his opinion as divine inspiration.
    He’s not the only one to do this. Other men have as well.
    But as another commenter said, he jumps up and down demanding our attention.
    Well, he has it. But it isn’t turning out the way he wants it to.
    We see through his piles of B.S. and we see the piles of bodies. He and his fanboys don’t get to tell us what to think about it all. What he has done needs to be exposed. He has hurt too many people. It needs to stop.

  147. Daisy wrote:

    @ Dave A A:
    If these guys are parodies, no offense, but they need to make it a little more obvious.
    A parody should not be so dead pan it reads as real and sincere to the average reader. There needs to be a little wink or nod or goofiness in the post somewhere to clue folks in it is a joke, and I don’t see that in some of these posts.

    No offense taken here. But — if any of these are real humans, they ought to take offense at my calling them parodies, and not authentic Martians. The also ought to make some reply to our replies. In case you didn’t see this on the last thread, it’s Poe’s Law,
    “Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won’t mistake for the real thing.”. Notice the mention of Cheetos and Bitter? Special codewords for Deebs. Notice the mention of Ergun Caner? Likely a poke at NC (both North Carolina and NeoCalvinist) Driscoll fan Dr. John C. , MDiv., Phd. That kindly Puritan scholar wrote an article about how no one should criticize Driscoll, because Caner is worse.
    BTW, it now looks like this parodier (real word? 🙂 ) is posting in Dave Kraft’s comments. A “James MacDonald” (certainly NOT Fiscal’s pal) has posted something very much like Recorde, Youngerling, and Clones (a musical group 🙂 ) have posted here.

  148. Your preoccupation with Pastor Mark causes us to consider if you are secretly attracted to him?

    Dee, I think you just may have the all-time winner right here.

    Also, this guy definitely sounds like a real person and not a parody.

    As for the question at hand – nope, not really attracted to a guy who would expect me to behave like a porn star on demand and use the Bible to justify it.

  149. Glad that the comment I posted earlier has been of some help. I knew I’d written something else along those lines, so was searching my blog and found this post from about six months ago. It offers a broad framework of different aspects that contribute to an “unsafe”/”toxic” environment for work or ministry. It overlaps with my earlier comment, but expands on it.

    What Do “Safe” Versus “Abusive” Environments for Personal and Social Transformation Include?

    http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/safe-versus-abusive-environments-for-transformation/

  150. . @ Paul Recorde:Ergun Caner has made more than a few mistakes. He has flat out lied about just about every aspect of his life. He has fomented fear and hatred towards Moslems and he has claimed to be an expert in fields about which he knows nothing. These are not simple slips. He is a fraud – short and simple.

  151. (off topic)
    I thought you guys might like to read a book that I just finished called: “Disillusioned: A Journey From Certainty to Faith” by Dan Cox. Full disclosure: although I will in no way profit from the sales or promotion of this book, I am acquainted with the author. His Megachurch is the one I hid in for a while when I first walked away from the abusive church I was in. It was while I was hiding there that he stepped down.

    http://www.amazon.com/Disillusioned-Journey-Certainty-Dan-Cox-ebook/dp/B00IJQSA3Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1394678790&sr=8-1&keywords=DAN+COX

  152. brad/futuristguy wrote:

    Mr.H wrote:

    For what it’s worth, as a former Acts29 insider, I can say that it is remarkable the extent to which my particular A29 church replicated the issues and problems currently being exposed at home base (i.e. Mars Hill). You could almost cut and paste the names and leave everything else.

    That is not a surprise, Mr. H. The “spiritual/cultural DNA” from Mars Hill will replicate elsewhere.

    This spiritual DNA theory is interesting to me because when I went to the New Frontiers church I’ve frequently mentioned here, which was headed up by a pastor who was very much entrenched in this mindset (attended Masters Seminary, previously on staff at MacArthur’s church, previously a leader at a Sovereign Grace church), the mantra he started teaching not long before we left was “duplicate yourself”. It was chilling to hear a young acquaintance there (perhaps one of the weaker members of the herd) saying, almost robotically: “Duplicate yourself…duplicate yourself.” That seems to be a common trait, the whole cell church concept as well. Duplication, replication.

    God doesn’t do it that way, He uses us in our uniqueness to balance one another out and provide different gifts to the body. Not a single living thing in the entire history of the universe is exactly, in every respect, like any another. The enemies of God want to make us all alike in the name of unity.

  153. LawProf wrote:

    God doesn’t do it that way, He uses us in our uniqueness to balance one another out and provide different gifts to the body. Not a single living thing in the entire history of the universe is exactly, in every respect, like any another. The enemies of God want to make us all alike in the name of unity.

    A couple points from my research, writing, and experiences in church planting strategy from the mid-1990s onward, FWIW.

    In my reflections on organic systems and how they apply to cultures and organizations, I’ve seen that what “DNA” is promoted from the pulpit or otherwise in an organization is what gets replicated. I keep going back to a quote from Price Pritchett: “The organization can never be what the people are not.” If a paradigm that thrives on division gets implanted in an organization, that’s what gets replicated and eventually takes over. Ever heard of kudzu?

    In genetics, when a gene is missing or doubled, there often are troubles. When that happens with the sex-determining X and/or Y genes, very often the offspring is sterile, suffers from significant physiological defects, and/or can expect a shorter lifespan. Churches and agencies that have broken or missing theologies and values at the core/in the corporate “DNA” will always suffer in how those manifest in the ways they carry on their ministry and business (strategy and structures) and in the cultures and collaborations they create.

    I agree with you on the importance of uniqueness of individuals, cultures, etc. In fact, I’m an advocate of “transculturalism,” which is a view that not only are different cultures a good thing, but we cannot become who we are designed to be if we don’t interact with others who are different. Think about it … even when Proverbs talking about iron sharpening iron, the only way that happens is if there is some kind of difference involved. One person has a more complete view than the other, and so can be of help to the other’s growth.

    Uniformity is never unity. Unity is an intriguing and tough theological topic. I’ve got a section on the following post, near the end, that looks at different views on this. http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/tutorial-16/

    Part of the reason I’ve been writing my current project on doing good PLUS doing no harm in ministry and social enterprises is because I’ve seen first-hand what happens when really bad theology and values that *inherently* lead to harm end up in church plants. This taints the leadership, the infrastructures, the corporate culture, the paradigm.

    Intervention may not be particularly successful. At best it creates a lot of public trauma because its root system has become so entrenched, as with all we are seeing with the drama and trauma of Mars Hill/Mark Driscoll. Interception for individuals and agencies at risk has great possibilities for establishing, restoring, and sustaining health and viability. Prevention to keep problems from implanting is the best route for the long run.