Remembering Matthew Warren – When Theology Trumps Christian Love

"If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen."

1 John 4:20 (ESV)

http://saddleback.com/blogs/communityblog/private-memorial-for-the-warren-family-2/

Matthew Warren – Saddleback Church

As the mother of two daughters both in their twenties, I was heartbroken when I heard that Matthew Warren, the youngest son of Rick and Kate Warren, had taken his own life.  Nothing can be more devastating to a parent than losing a child, particularly under these circumstances.

When I heard the heart-wrenching news, I immediately thought of that tragic scene in the movie Luther where a young lad commits suicide.  The Church forbade his body to be buried within its premises, and Martin Luther passionately disagreed.  Here is a brief transcript of the scene:

Monk (who refuses to bury the child):  “Brother Martin, the boy’s damned. I’m not allowed to do this. The others won’t rest with him in here. This is holy ground, he’s a suicide.”

Luther:  “Tell Otto to bring his son. Tell him: Some people say that according to God’s justice, this boy is damned because he took his life. I say it was overcome by the devil. Is this child any more to blame for the despair that overtook him than an innocent man who is murdered by a robber in the woods? God must be mercy. God IS mercy.“

Luther then personally buries the child in front of the child’s parents, and prays:

“He is yours. Save him.”

For those who have lost a loved one to suicide, I hope they will take comfort in what Martin Luther had to say about the taking of one's own life.  Luther proclaimed:

"I don’t share the opinion that suicides are certainly to be damned. My reason is that they do not wish to kill themselves but are overcome by the power of the devil…" 

Martin Luther, Table Talk #222 [April 7, 1532], Luther’s Works, Vol. 54 (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1967). p. 29  Link

One would think that the entire Christian community would be reaching out to the Warren family with love and compassion; however, there have been some detractors who appear to elevate their theology over their love.  I couldn't believe my eyes when I read the following in The Christian Post:

Well-known Pastor Rick Warren's personal tragedy of losing his son Matthew as the result of suicide last Friday has not only garnered sympathy and condolences from around the world, but also online vitriol from his detractors. Perhaps most disturbing to Warren and many in the Christian community is that some of the attacks have come from people professing to be Christians, as well.

Warren posted through Facebook and Twitter: "Grieving is hard. Grieving as public figures, harder. Grieving while haters celebrate your pain, hardest…"

Frank Viola wrote a hard-hitting piece directed at those who would dare to post callous remarks about Rick Warren and his family members. Here is an excerpt:

If you are a Christian and your heart doesn’t go out to this brother and his family, something is wrong with you spiritually.

I don’t care what you think about Warren’s theology, his books, or how he combs his hair. The fact is, he lost a child. Few things can be more painful and nightmarish in this life.

To add insult to injury, just take a look at some of the comments by fellow “Christians” (professing ones at least) to the news. These are comments that were left on various Christian news websites under the Warren article:

*******

Train up your children in the way, live a godly example with right priorities, care enough to home-school despite the great sacrifice involved, don’t let them date unchaperoned, have daily family devotions, turn off the 1-eyed idiot, TRULY HAVE A PURPOSE-DRIVEN LIFE, and your children WILL NOT COMMIT SUICIDE, nor will they be involved in homosexuality, nor fornication.

*******

He killed himself, it’s much worse than fornication or homosexuality or Onanism or eating pork. He denied himself a chance to get better. If your kids need a chaperone to date, why do you let them date? They shouldn’t be dating if they are not mature enough to control themselves.

*******

Suicide happens soon after your stupid enough to read “The Purpose Driven Life”.

*******

Poor Matthew denies God’s Love with suicide.

*******

He could not save his own because Mr. Warren does not truly understand how his own heart works, how it is broken and the mechanism by which Jesus laid out the example of how to fix it. Matthew killed himself because he did not understand either. He was a victim of his own ignorance and the ignorance of his family, friends, society and Christians around him — presently!

When tragedy strikes, that is NOT the time to critique someone's theological beliefs.  A discerning Christian should know when to argue about theology and when to let just it go.  When someone is down, it is dishonoring to God to make callous comments such as those cited above.  Shame on them!  That is not how we show a watching world our Christian love!  What would compel a brother or sister in Christ to write such horrendous comments?  Are they genuine Christians?  May God have mercy on their souls!

Back in 2009 Wade Burleson delivered a thought-provoking message that addresses this issue.  It was entitled "Love Beyond Your Theology".  Here is the portion of his talk that applies to these circumstances:

I now believe deep in my heart that Jesus is more concerned with how we … treat each other than He is with what we … teach each other. The people loved by Christ — particularly those who differ with me — are to be far more precious to me than any finer point of theology believed by me. Jesus did not tell me that it would be by my “truth” that all people would know that I am one of His followers, but by my “love.” The only description ever given of our Lord was that He was a person “full of grace and truth.” Word order is important in Scripture. Grace should not just precede truth, it should permeate it. Or as our host Jimmy Allen so brilliantly puts it: “Our love should reach beyond our theology.”

There is so much more that could be said about this serious matter; however, we will leave you with some wonderful Bible verses about love (all are from the New American Standard Bible):

"For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."  Galatians 5:13

"with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love"  Ephesians 4:2

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God."  1 John 4:7

"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."       1 Corinthians 13:4-7

Please join Dee and me in praying for the Warren family as well as for those who have revealed their hearts of stone. 

Lydia's Corner:   Ruth 2:1-4:22   John 4:43-54   Psalm 105:16-36   Proverbs 14:26-27

Comments

Remembering Matthew Warren – When Theology Trumps Christian Love — 202 Comments

  1. My stomach got sick and I became angry inside from reading the hateful responses from “Christians.” God, help us; God, deliver us from your (alleged) people.

  2. I read these hurtful comments cited by Viola and am nearly at a loss for words. How cold and callous! We’ve had some hurtful words thrown at us when we struggled through painful times, but nothing like this. Disagree with Rick Warren about theology, fine. Take issue with his books or the way he does ministry, fine. But do this in a respectful manner and at the proper time and place. To Warren’s critics, if you can’t bring yourselves to express love to this family in their dark time, hush!

  3. I experienced some pretty mixed emotions when I read Rick’s letter about Matthew Warren’s death.

    I was fortunate that amongst the theological mix of friends on Facebook, no-one took the kind of line that the “haters” that Rick and Frank refer to.

    I was angry when I read Frank’s post a couple of days ago.

    I’ve witnessed and experienced the kind of attitudes that some Christians display towards mental health issues.

    Part of my reaction stems from well-meaning Christians over the years telling me “the reason you’re depressed is you lack purpose in your life. If you just find purpose, your depression will go away.”

    Or then there’s the fun things like “It must be hidden sin in your life”, “you’re just selfish”, “You’re unwilling to surrender to God”… or having someone tell you that they only wanted to spend time with Christians who were victorious, and my lack of overcoming my mental illness meant that they needed to spend time with people who were more victorious. Thanks, brother.

    I’ve been told to name and claim and accept my healing, and been lambasted for not being healed. I’ve been piled high with bible verses that did nothing more than crush me. I’ve been on medication a couple of times, but it’s not a good fit for me.

    I’ve had all that thrown at me. I wonder how much of that poor Matthew faced. I wonder how much of a weight was placed on him by the expectations of people around him who faced him and demanded he be well, instead of standing beside him and holding up his arms.

    There, but for the grace of God, go I. I nearly left my children parentless and my wife a widow on more than one occasion. I still bear the scars. I’ve promised not to do it to them ever again.

    I’m still alive. I still get up every day, and face the unrelenting joyless grey, and keep inching forwards. I keep praying to a God that I believe is there, but I don’t hear. Sometimes my prayer is just “have mercy on me, a sinner, o God.”

    I understand that dark place that Matt got to. At that point, it makes more sense to go away, because the pain that you’re causing the people around you by your very existence is greater than any pain they’ll feel at your loss.

    That thought… that’s the thing that people don’t understand. It doesn’t make sense when you’re well, but in that place, in that time, it seems like the only glimmer of light in the pitch black sea that you’re adrift on.

    I wish there was some way to get Christians “walking in victory” to get that, and be gentle with the wounded…

  4. Deb
    Great post. When our theology leads us to arrogance and cruelty, then it is not the study of our Lord. It is simply study for the sake of knowledge and does the learner absolutely no good.

    I am praying for the Warrens and have no doubt that Matthew is in the healing hands of His Father. He has travelled from despair to joy in the twinkling of an eye.

  5. @ Warwick: I am so glad that you are here with us, sharing your thoughts and feelings. You bless us with your presence and I am grateful you are here. Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing your life with us!

  6. Another twist.

    Beth Moore (don’t know much about her except she is SBC) wrote a column approved by Rick Warren for his site Pastors.com

    http://pastors.com/beth-moore-sadness-and-madness/

    This lady is way out of line. Moore fans are jumping in with Amens etc. The SBC is a scary place.

    A guy named Jonathan Cousar wrote about this column. I thought at first his headline was sensational “Rick Warren Exploits Son’s Death to Attack Critics” until I read that Rick Warren approved Ms. Moores article on his site. On April 8th Warren tweeted: “WOW. We love you Beth Moore for your powerful and prophetic Sadness and Madness blog.”

    Cousar rightly points out that Moore does what she is critical of and he lists the names she calls the critics of Rick Warren:

    Hateful
    Relentless
    Bullies
    Mud slingers
    Mean
    Careless
    Self seeking
    Haters
    Mockers
    Slanderers
    Snide
    Self serving
    Enemies

    Perhaps Rick Warrens people tweeted that praise, I don’t know, and perhaps Warren had no say about that article going up on his site, but this is abusive on so many levels I am speechless.

    I do not for a nano second condone the hate coming from Christians. I do not and will not condone returning hate for hate.

  7. People making comments like those cited are revealing much about what kind of God they believe they serve. There will always be crazies on the internet to spout this stuff. I’m glad to see no well known leaders that might actually draw others to follow them have spoken up negatively. And I don’t wonder if some of the comments were made by trolls in order to get a reaction.

  8. @ Bene Diction:
    I’m sorry, but I don’t see the issue with the Beth Moore article. She isn’t doing the same thing that she’s accusing others of. What she’s talking about is people who rip into people like Rick Warren without considering he is a flesh and blood human being and a fellow Christian. I’m no fan of Warren’s approach and I’ve been quite critical of it, but I’ve never verbally attacked or out down the man himself- only his teaching. And Moore hasn’t attacked anyone else in that way- she’s saying that self identifying Christians do those things that you listed, and that’s a true statment. She didn’t call out someone and put him or her down.

    Or that’s my take, maybe I’m missing something.

    And I have no feelings about Moore one way or the other. As far as I know she’s the untouchable woman teacher that no one hates and even Piper goes through theological hoops to accept, but I’ve never read anything by her myself.

  9. @ Warwick: Thank you for sharing your story. Indeed Christians have a really bad track record with this kind of thing. It seems so easy when you aren't the one going through it . . . Are you familiar with the song "The Edge" by Michael Card? I have a lot of respect for him writing this song because suicide is not a topic many Christian artists ever address. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tq19IHzKeY

  10. I’ve been sad about this since I first heard of it over the weekend; even sadder when I saw how some Christians have responded to the Warren family. I’m praying that much comfort comes their way now and over the coming weeks, months, and years. The death of a child is something you never get over. I can only imagine the sorrow.

  11. My prayers go out to the Warren family. May the Lord give them His comfort. This is a tragedy I wouldn’t wish on anybody no matter what their theology. I’m sure they will be grappling with many feelings in the days and years ahead. May the Lord be with them every step of the way.

  12. @ Warwick:

    God bless you Warwick. I’ve peered over the abyss myself with my toes hanging over the edge. It’s been very close.

    You are brave and precious as you inch forward.

    Lord God, please comfort, love and protect the Warren family at this time. May they lovingly remember their beloved Matthew through their tears and grief. May they be surrounded right now by those who loved Matthew as they did.

  13. “…care enough to home-school despite the great sacrifice involved…and your children WILL NOT COMMIT SUICIDE”

    The dad of a well-respected family in my state who homeschooled for decades just committed suicide last month. This commenter is not only unjustifiably “hating” on Rick Warren, they are gravely shortsighted. Homeschooling is not a panacea and homeschoolers seriously need to stop claiming that it is. End hijack.

    (Hester climbs off soapbox and bangs head against brick)

  14. My thoughts and prayers have been with the Warrens since I heard about this tragedy. My opinion of anyone’s theology or church, etc., has no bearing on grieving with someone who has suffered. Those who can’t restrain themselves from using the opportunity to kick a man when he’s down show a remarkable lack of grace and spiritual (or emotional) maturity.

    I was raised in a religious environment that taught suicide was an unforgivable sin. As it is something that has been a companion (or stalker) since my age was in single digits, that was an added fear to the many growing up.

    @ Warwick:
    You are so right about the mental processes when that darkness engulfs. When I was 24, the pain and frustration got to be too much. The anger I was not allowed to express at the abusers boiled over and turned to the only ‘safe’ target I had been given – myself. I remember clearly what I thought that night. I honestly believed that my family and friends would be sad for maybe two weeks and then get over it and be free of having to worry about me.

    When I took that bottle of pills and went to bed, I was scared…but I was more scared of living on in the pain. As I began to drift off, I told God I was sorry – for taking this route, for being weak, for failing. He taught me some profound things that night – and the next day, and the day after that.

    First, he filled my room with his peaceful presence in a way I will never forget. In an instant, I was at peace and safe – even though I still believed I was dying. I faded out and woke up 24 hours later – surprised and a little disappointed to still be here. But one of the things he taught me is that suicide is not the sin the church paints it to be.

    @ dee:
    I absolutely agree that Matthew is safe with Jesus now – at peace.

    You are so right in this post. We can disagree and call each other out for abuses and what not, and we absolutely should. But at the end of the day, if we have no love for each other, we are like fingernails on a chalkboard. God has reminded me from time to time, that faith is important and hope is needed, but the greatest thing – the thing more important than even faith – is love….

  15. The Luther quote is interesting. I’ve always believed more or less that suicide is not like other wrongs. Most sin or wrongs could be done because of some form of self-interest. Most lies and sexual misbehavior and theft and even murder could be explained by some kind of self-centered behavior.
    Suicide cannot. Somehow, I always felt, things like suicide and self-cutting and consenting to being a BDSM submissive is proof that there is a satan or demons, who instigate people to do or allow violence against themselves.

    Because human nature has a survival instinct, some other force must have the harming instinct.

  16. @ Retha:
    It is more complicated than that. For me, it wasn’t about ‘the will to live’ so much as it was a desire to escape the seemingly unending emotional pain. Chronic physical pain can also lead to suicide…..people reach the limit of what they can endure. Please be careful about blaming demons for mental illness. That has been used to abuse people who are suffering.

  17. I hear you. I’ll be careful, and you are right about emotional pain. But remember that this was not about blame or a desire to abuse – this was about not blaming them.

  18. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    @ Retha:
    It is more complicated than that. For me, it wasn’t about ‘the will to live’ so much as it was a desire to escape the seemingly unending emotional pain.

    When I was at the memorial service for my cousin a year and a half ago, I said to my aunt, “I can’t imagine how awful he must have been feeling to believe that what he did was the best and only solution. The one comfort I can find is that I’m glad he’s not in that kind of pain anymore.”

    Praying for the Warren family, and all who have struggled with mental illness, that we might feel deep peace.

  19. Condolences to Rick and his family. A tragic loss. May Jesus come back soon and decisively put an end to illness and death.

    I hope that the church can improve its ability to meaningfully engage with the issue of mental health. Such an important but neglected topic among believers today.

  20. Train up your children in the way …

    There is a common thought in many in the Christian community that perfect parenting will create perfect children/adults. And many of them feel they must defend that concept at all costs. There can be no genetic factors or other factors they cannot control. Otherwise it invalidates the way they think of God is wrong. And of themselves. After all if they do things perfectly and a child doesn’t grow up perfectly then it must be a flaw in themselves passed on to their kids that is the issue.

    If I took a week or so I could turn this into a longer comment/post but I feel these people are like the militant defenders of YEC or Calvinism. It is a foundational issue for them and their faith and to take it away would break their faith. Therefore they defend it all all costs and at every opportunity.

  21. The entire book of Job in the Old Testament pretty much addresses this topic, how believers should treat another believer who is suffering: refrain from sermonizing, judging, or picking apart their theological beliefs or insisting their tragedy is necessarily from God as punishment.

    I don’t know what makes people so vicious and cruel, especially in someone’s time of loss.

    It reminds me a little too of secular cases, like the teen girls who commit suicide due to being repeatedly bullied, then who get bullied in death – their tormentors leave nasty messages making light of their deaths on Facebook and so on.

    As for the person who said,

    Train up your children in the way, live a godly example with right priorities, care enough to home-school despite the great sacrifice involved, don’t let them date unchaperoned, have daily family devotions, turn off the 1-eyed idiot, TRULY HAVE A PURPOSE-DRIVEN LIFE, and your children WILL NOT COMMIT SUICIDE, nor will they be involved in homosexuality, nor fornication.

    I’ve lived a squeaky clean life by most people’s standards, but I watched secular entertainment growing up, still do – it hasn’t turned me into a back alley boozer and sex pot.

    I was not home-schooled, and my family did not have “daily devotions.” I never slept around, did drugs, or abuse alcohol.

    Anyone’s children are susceptible to falling into sin, or making mistakes, no matter how morally upstanding the parents are, or what kind of home life they come from.

    And that these people would pick now, of all times, to lash out at Warren and criticize him (or his parenting style) is especially reprehensible.

    @Lynn. Re: train up a child

    I wish I had the links, but awhile ago I saw a long interview or two with a mother whose son was, it appeared, was a sociopath, even at age 8 or 9.

    I have no idea if the lady is a Christian or not, but she and her husband seemed like decent, caring people, and they could not understand why or how their son was so violent and without remorse.

    (This couple had two other kids that did not display signs of sociopathy. The violent son pretty much got along okay with one sibling but kept threatening to kill the other one.)

  22. @ Bene Diction:

    I haven’t yet read Moore’s page myself, but I disagree with your take on it, that a second person calling out bad behavior is just as bad as the first person initiating it.

    If someone is indeed bullying, it’s okay to call that behavior bullying, or to refer to that person as being a bully.

    When the Pharisess were being hypocritical, Jesus said so and called them hypocrites.

  23. @ Warwick: I was deeply touched by your comment. I'm sure it resonated with others who have experienced debilitating pain. Thank you for your transparency, and i am so glad you are still here with us. I'm keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

  24. @ Jeannette Altes:

    You have a powerful testimony. I pray that God will use it to touch others who have contemplated suicide.

    I am so grateful that you are part of the TWW community!  Blessings, dear sister.

  25. @ Lynn:

    “There is a common thought in many in the Christian community that perfect parenting will create perfect children/adults. And many of them feel they must defend that concept at all costs. There can be no genetic factors or other factors they cannot control. Otherwise it invalidates the way they think of God is wrong. And of themselves. After all if they do things perfectly and a child doesn’t grow up perfectly then it must be a flaw in themselves passed on to their kids that is the issue.”

    Or they think it would make God a liar because of Proverbs 22:6.

  26. @ Bene Diction:
    Beth did not name anyone. She did not attribute those acts to any specific person. That is a huge difference. The Haters do.

  27. @ Bene Diction:

    Like Jeff S and Daisy, I cannot see how Beth Moore’s article represents a new twist; at least, not any newer than the comments drawing a causal link between Rick Warren’s theology or broader fitness as a parent on the one hand, and Matthew Warren’s death on the other.

    I’ve now read both Moore’s article, and Cousar’s article on it. I know nothing about either writer other than the articles in question, so I can’t make any guesses about them as people. But Moore’s article explicitly does not attack Warren’s theological critics. Quite the contrary, it attacks that subset of Warren’s critics who themselves are trying to exploit Matthew’s death. Cousar thus sets about taking the whole article out of context and setting it in a different one, that he seems to have chosen himself.

    Bene Diction – you were right the first time. The headline “Rick Warren Exploits Son’s Death to Attack Critics” is both sensationalist and – as sensationalist headlines generally are – grossly misleading. Even the list of words you quote is, by its very nature, and at the very least, a set of words of which every one has been taken completely out of context. The crowning irony is that Cousar is guilty of what he accuses Moore of being guilty of what he accuses her of accusing others of doing.

  28. This is what happens when commitment to theology causes people to lose the sense of human dignity. They are treating Rick and Kay Warren like bugs to be squashed and it is profoundly disrespectful.

    The first verse that comes to mind, though by no means the only appropriate one, is 1 Corinthians 13:1. These people are sounding brass and clashing cymbals. Worse, actually.

    In Revelation 2:1-7 Christ’s first strong rebuke was directed at the Ephesian church that had all its doctrinal ducks in a row but had left its first love. I believe this means they were an unloving congregation. As such Christ threatened to take away their lamp stand, which I understand, historically He did.

    This kind of thing has exactly the same effect. There is a powerful witness to the world when we can disagree vehemently and then put that down when tragedy strikes our opponent, being overcome by concern for his well being in the midst of his pain and showing respectful priority to his humanity, rather than taking advantage of his vulnerability.

    But this is just ugly.

  29. @ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:
    56 – the fact that I didn’t include you in my list shows just how long I took in writing my last post! That’s what happens when you’re trying to child-mind, do the washing and draft a project proposal for the NHS in parallel.

    On the plus side, yesterday’s concrete is setting nicely.

  30. Another very compassionate response: http://davidmeldrum.wordpress.com/2013/04/07/a-sons-suicide/
    “When you’re caught in the tsunami’s grip, what you need most is people. Checking in, asking, loving, holding you against the force that’s threatening to sweep you away. I wish I could say holding always works, always saves the life. I wish I could say that love trumps darkness every time. Eternally, it does. But in individual moments, when lies loom large with a whirlpool’s seemingly irresistible force, it doesn’t. Not for everyone. But that doesn’t mean the love was wasted, unheard or unfelt.”

  31. @ Bene Diction:I, too, thought it was a bit over the top but I gave it a pass because it does seem she was focusing on those who would write such despicable comments.

    However, on second thought, some of the terms like slanderers make it seem like she could be talking about herself. Sometimes when people get angry, they are reacting to things that have happened to them as well. It is certainly something to consider.

  32. @ Jeff S:
    Sometimes I am not sure if they all are trolls. Some of them are just like that.

    I visit many blogs and am astonished at the level of condemnation that goes on if one’s theology does not line up with the critic’s theology. I am not talking about a good debate on differences, I am talking about downright mean: charges of heresy, God’s retribution, etc. on issues as mundane as the age of the earth, the use of alcohol,etc.

  33. The insensitive and hateful comments make me angry, but I couldn’t help but laugh at the thought that when some anonymous internet commenter wanted to make a list of sins, they put homosexuality, pleasuring one’s self (in that way), and eating bacon all on the same level of sinfulness (I guess that means I sin regularly at breakfast). And they referred to the second one as “Onanism,” which shows how out of touch they are with culture (and scripture, for that matter). My home schooled Christian friend who also happens to be gay would be amused.

  34. Years ago I had a “strong” Christian friend from a Christian college. We were close, and he was always talking about the Lord in one way or another. We thought of dating but just stayed friends. Then, years later, he was involved full time in Christian ministry. One day he went home and put a gun to his head. I wondered many times…did we miss the signals? I have always grieved for whatever haunted him, and just wish that he had been more “honest” and less intensely spiritual…just shared his pain, his disappointment with God or himself, and gotten help. If you have never struggled with depression, then good for you. But if you have, God can help, but He often uses others to walk the path with you.

  35. @ Warwick:
    “Be gentle with the wounded” . . . I’m so glad you posted this. Thank you for sharing your struggles and difficult experiences. I’ve had some myself because of being attracted to the same sex.

    I hate to admit this, but, sometimes I wish the kind of people to whom you refer could walk in our shoes for just one day. Then again, I think we would all take on a different attitude if we could walk in someone else’s shoes for just one day.

  36. I think some people’s filters somehow drop when they are online. Some of what I have seen turns my stomach, and I’m not talking about deliberately controversial sites or anything like that.

    I could probably write a book about how much I disagree with Rick Warren on religion and theology and all that. But that doesn’t matter right now. As a human being my heart goes out to him and the rest of the family. Losing a child under any circumstances is horrible.

  37. @ dee:

    I had mixed feelings about Moore's article as well. I mostly agreed with what she said, but I didn't understand the purpose of the slander sentence that was set apart on a line of its own.

  38. When tragedy strikes, that is NOT the time to critique someone’s theological beliefs.

    It is if your entire cosmos is only big enough for Purity of Ideology.

  39. Josh wrote:

    The insensitive and hateful comments make me angry, but I couldn’t help but laugh at the thought that when some anonymous internet commenter wanted to make a list of sins, they put homosexuality, pleasuring one’s self (in that way), and eating bacon all on the same level of sinfulness (I guess that means I sin regularly at breakfast). And they referred to the second one as “Onanism,” which shows how out of touch they are with culture (and scripture, for that matter).

    Now THAT is someone who is completely sealed off inside his Bible-bubble event horizon. Kynge Jaymes Englyshe and all.

    The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs.

  40. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    But Moore’s article explicitly does not attack Warren’s theological critics. Quite the contrary, it attacks that subset of Warren’s critics who themselves are trying to exploit Matthew’s death.

    Similar to Sarah Brady/Handgun Control Inc rolling into DC after the Newtown School Massacre. 40 Children Dead? What an Opportunity to Advance MY Agenda!

  41. dee wrote:

    @ Jeff S:
    Sometimes I am not sure if they all are trolls. Some of them are just like that.
    I visit many blogs and am astonished at the level of condemnation that goes on if one’s theology does not line up with the critic’s theology. I am not talking about a good debate on differences, I am talking about downright mean: charges of heresy, God’s retribution, etc. on issues as mundane as the age of the earth, the use of alcohol,etc.

    Oh, believe me I know. Unlike you, at ACFJ we moderate EVERY comment, including those from people we trust. We do this because our goals are slightly different from yours- rather than open dialog we are more focused on giving abuse survivors a safe place to work things out. Letting through hurtful comments can be really damaging to the commenters, so we are very careful.

    As an editor I see all the comments, and it never ceases to amaze me that mount of evil that can pour forth from the mouths of those profess to be serving Christ. I’m sure you’ve had your fair share of that kind of thing here as well.

    It is sick.

  42. @ Rachel:

    “I think some people’s filters somehow drop when they are online.”

    It’s easy to dehumanize someone you can’t see. It’s the same reason a lot of teenagers break up with their boyfriends/girlfriends via a text rather than doing it in person. It’s a lot easier to be a jerk when you can’t see the hurt, angry, etc. expression and body language.

  43. “…care enough to home-school despite the great sacrifice involved…and your children WILL NOT COMMIT SUICIDE”

    And if you just say Five Fast Praise-the-LOORDs Every Morning everything your Life Will Be Perfect In Every Way with Unicorns Farting Rainbows and Free Ice Cream…

    Like the married-at-18 Christians who propound and pronounce about Singleness and all the Saints Who Have Never Been Caught themselves.

  44. @ William Birch:Thank you for sharing your struggle with us. One of the things that I learned from people who have left the faith is that we are all a bunch of hypocrites. We pretend that we have our theology and lives together but inside we all struggle.And then we spend a lot of time pointing outward to the “world” and all those evil people.

    This hurts those who are willing to be open with their pain and struggles. In fact, it is those who do share their struggles in a transparent fashion who are closer to God. Instead of spouting slogans of total depravity with confessions of nice sins like overeating, deep Christians understand that we are all strugglers and are willing to live it out.

    You are one of those real Christians and I am honored that you would be willing to open your life to us! Know that you are in my prayers.

  45. @ Josh:

    “He killed himself, it’s much worse than fornication or homosexuality or Onanism or eating pork.”

    “I couldn’t help but laugh at the thought that when some anonymous internet commenter wanted to make a list of sins, they put homosexuality, pleasuring one’s self (in that way), and eating bacon all on the same level of sinfulness”

    Maybe he’s SDA. That was the way the crazy SDA I had a runin with thought. I think bacon really is equivalent to adultery in their theology.

  46. @ Josh:
    Josh wrote:

    And they referred to the second one as “Onanism,” which shows how out of touch they are with culture (and scripture, for that matter). My home schooled Christian friend who also happens to be gay would be amused.

    I am so glad you mentioned this. I, too, cringed when I saw this. I would love to know what kind of church they attend.

  47. @ Hester:I think it is time for people who claim to understand the “fallen nature” of man to get off their high horse and admit that they cannot make problems go away by any “gospel” program out there-be it homeschooling, correct Sunday school materials and church discipline for pride. Each of us walks a difficult path and we need to come alongside each other, hold each other up and limp into the kingdom together.

  48. @ Jeannette Altes:So many people want to ignore those who experience the deep heartache of emotional pain. Sometimes I wonder if they do so because they will have to confront it in their own lives as they walk alongside those who are willing to deal with it. In some respects, Jeannette, you are stronger than those who run from it. You have much to teach all of us.

  49. There are some who would say that the “Train up a child”/homeschooling statement WAS loving. They would say that they were, “Stating the truth in ‘love'”, therefore causing repentance. And that the most loving thing to do would be to tell him the truth (as they see it).

    I’ve encountered many who view judging others this way. It’s very twisted to normal people, but this is how they view it.

    If you point out how very twisted this is, they’ll attack you and tell you how messed up YOU are because you are not willing to state God’s true word, and tell you that you are not loving.

    My heart breaks for the Warren family.

  50. @ Daisy: We know so little about the development of the human brain. Sociopaths are scary because they have little moral constraint and have little empathy.

    I wonder if one day we will learn that they are missing an essential chemical, etc. in the brain. Just as we benignly smile at those who thought that diseases came in through the night air, i wonder if our descendants (if the Lord tarries) will view up in the same light in our perspectives on mental illness.

  51. Kindakrunchy wrote:

    There are some who would say that the “Train up a child”/homeschooling statement WAS loving. They would say that they were, “Stating the truth in ‘love’”, therefore causing repentance. And that the most loving thing to do would be to tell him the truth (as they see it).

    Awesome comment. I have heard this said for all sorts of abuse in the church. Love now equals discipline and nothing else.

  52. Wait, so….so homeschooling and how you date are actually now connected to whether you will commit suicide?

    Do these people hear themselves?

    More to the point, they must have never experienced personal tragedy, or they would not even think of reacting to it this way. Talk about hearts of stone.

  53. A friend of mine posted the following tweet: “Out of the overflow of the heart the fingers tweet”. That about sums it up. I feel my blood pressure rise when I read these comments.

  54. dee wrote:

    @ Daisy: We know so little about the development of the human brain. Sociopaths are scary because they have little moral constraint and have little empathy.

    I wonder if one day we will learn that they are missing an essential chemical, etc. in the brain. Just as we benignly smile at those who thought that diseases came in through the night air, i wonder if our descendants (if the Lord tarries) will view up in the same light in our perspectives on mental illness.

    Actually, I had a naturopath tell me that when she treats kids who seem to have no conscience, she gives them huge doses of a supplement that creates oxytosin. Her theory is that at some point during the pregnancy, some hormone or chemical wasn’t released at the right time.
    She has seen it work on some kids. Not all, but some.

    Human beings are way too complex to point to one thing and say, “This is why you _____!!!!” Especially when dealing with depression!!!

  55. I was saddened when I heard the news, as I am when I hear that anyone has come to the point where life has become unbearable – the pain involved is, for most of us, unimaginable. Because it involved the family of a public figure, I knew there would be a number of sick comments as well. It seems that the human capacity for cruelty is limitless.

    “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?’He said to him, ‘ “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

    This is the bedrock of the Christian faith. Given that, there aren’t near as many Christians in this world as are claimed. It’s been 2000 years, how much longer until we get it?

  56. If you just sit back and read the numbers on baptisms, church membership, attendance, involvement in the church work, divorce among professing Christians, discipleship involvement, and all the rest that’s publicly available, then all this comes as no surprise whatsoever. Suicide is a tragedy, and so is entirely too much of the response.

    On the matter of heaven, the best Bible teacher I ever knew said this: “For an action to keep you OUT of heaven, it must be true that NOT taking that action would get you INTO heaven”. And that is not the case with suicide.

  57. A priest friend of mine (Anglican) often prays, in difficult times, that things will become more and more what they are. By “things” she meant chiefly movements in the Church, and it would seem to apply to these haters: they cannot help revealing where their hearts are, and this truth is becoming more apparent daily This is actually a blessing, because these sorts of hate-fueled movements are not the Gospel, they will implode all by themselves.

  58. @ dee: imo, her mischaracterization of mental illness in her opening graphs is what got me – she seems to be saying that the Warren’s son was driven to suicide by the devil.

    That is not helpful for/to anyone suffering from depression, having thoughts of suicide (or anything like it), because she’s clearly denying that there’s any option(s) re. counseling, treatment (including antidepressants) and… well.

    she is misguided at best. It scares me to see her broadcasting these views to such a large audience.

  59. Kindakrunchy wrote:

    There are some who would say that the “Train up a child”/homeschooling statement WAS loving. They would say that they were, “Stating the truth in ‘love’”, therefore causing repentance. And that the most loving thing to do would be to tell him the truth (as they see it).

    Someone on the internet linked to a blog post recently that I thought addressed this well. It’s on a different and even more inflammatory issue, but I think it’s relevant to today’s topic as well.

    http://gcnjustin.tumblr.com/post/47194176073/loving-them-into-hell

  60. @ JeffT:
    on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. without love, it’s all meaningless…yet as the world watches us, it is often our lack of love they see. My prayers and thoughts are with the Warren family. I can’t imagine the pain of losing a child.

  61. @ Warwick:

    I could put your whole comment in quotes, every word you wrote here and on the link you provided resonated with me. Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy… I too suffered from spending years in the grip of depression, so many years in a dark night, which was made even more perplexing because how Christians responded…

    My X pastor probably did the most damage…

    Daisy: I read your comment at I.M. yesterday & nodded my head in agreement while I cried.

    I am ashamed that I once acted like I had answers for others. I was programmed to use my suffering for the glory of God, that breaks my heart, because all I needed was a soft heart to listen to my agony, & lots of kleenex, and now I know that is all I should have offered when listening to the suffering over others.

    I can forgive myself because I know now that I was indoctrinated to paste a plastic smile over the PTSD that I was eventually diagnosed with.

    Thank-You Warwick & Daisy for the gift of honest story sharing.

     

  62. I meant to add my heart goes out to the Warren family. Yes, except for the grace of God there go I. My life was spared when I overdosed some 30 years ago, I was not a believer when I attempted to take my life so it was a gift to have a beautiful, tender nurse share the love of Jesus with me that terrible night… I had such hope when I became a Christan that Jesus was going to heal the darkness inside of me, and I faked it for years that he had indeed done so… Till it all came crashing down & leaving the church, being pewless for 6 years…

  63. @ numo:

    I didn’t get the impression that she was denying that there are options for different mental health issues or depression. I thought she was speaking more from a sense that “there is one out there that seeks to kill, steel, and destroy” and none of us are safe. She wasn’t blaming a demon, but lamenting what it is like to watch your children struggle under the weight of such issues. The point of her article was not to address mental health and depression but to adress how other Christians were responding to a family suffering loss. I can’t really fault her for not addressing the ins and out of mental illness and depression at this juncture. Aside from this article, I’ve read nothing of Moore’s, nor done any of her Bible studies.

  64. Back in the dark ages (probably the late 60s to early 70s) I remember being shown a movie in a youth group setting at church. It was one of those typical badly-made “Christian” movies we saw so many of, and I have no idea what it was called, but in the past couple of years, especially in the context of discussions such as this current one, I have been reminded of one of the key elements to the movie which totally flew past me at the time I saw it. Perhaps someone knows of this movie and could tell us more about it; but that key element was that in the beginning, all of the characters wore these happy-faced transparent plastic masks, as they went about their happy little Christian existences, and as the movie went on, some of them began to remove their masks, showing the real faces of real people coping with real problems underneath. And that’s all I remember, and as I said, in the past couple of years, I understand it for the first time.

  65. numo wrote:

    @ dee: imo, her mischaracterization of mental illness in her opening graphs is what got me – she seems to be saying that the Warren’s son was driven to suicide by the devil.
    That is not helpful for/to anyone suffering from depression, having thoughts of suicide (or anything like it), because she’s clearly denying that there’s any option(s) re. counseling, treatment (including antidepressants) and… well.
    she is misguided at best. It scares me to see her broadcasting these views to such a large audience.

    Not to be a Beth Moore apologist here, but I didn’t see a micharacterization of mental illness. I don’t seen anything that denies treatment or counseling. She attributes mental illness to the work of the devil and I think that is absolutely fair in the same way sickness and desies are works of the devil. I see her emphasis as blaming evil for what happened, not Matthew.

  66. sad observer wrote:

    Wait, so….so homeschooling and how you date are actually now connected to whether you will commit suicide?
    Do these people hear themselves?

    The issue is that we (humans) seem to be wired to want simple answers to problems. And we seem to chose simple answers that are shown to work poorly or not at all over complicated answers that do work better.

    This leads to the entire legalistic Christian mindset and why people are willing to follow legalistic churches and leaders.

    The few successes are trumpeted and the many failures tossed out for any reason they can make up. Cause and effect are twisted beyond all recognition.

  67. @ Monica:

    From the Voskamp article posted by Monica, and in relation to Eagle’s question about Welch on anti-depressants:

    There are some who take communion and anti-depressants and there are those who think both are a crutch.

    Come in close — I’d rather walk tall with a crutch than crawl around insisting like a proud and bloody fool that I didn’t need one.

    Emphasis hers.

  68. “When tragedy strikes, that is NOT the time to critique someone’s theological beliefs…What would compel a brother or sister in Christ to write such horrendous comments?”

    Deb,

    If I could draw a distinction here. There is a difference in 1) saying, “He experienced a tragedy. Well, he’s just a [insert theological belief system here] after all” because you think him less of a person because of their beliefs, and, 2) believing he experienced tragedy BECAUSE of his theological beliefs, that is, the beliefs were the cause of the tragedy. The negative comments you gave seem to fit #2 rather than #1.

  69. “Anchored In Hope: Bundled In Prayer”

    The heavens are open, the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God!

    May He wipe away all the tears of the Warren family. 

    We here morn their “loss.”

    I am reminded that nearly 1 million Twitter followers and hundreds of thousands of Facebook followers so far (as of April 11, 2013) have flooded social media with Warren Family consolation and their prayers. May these thoughts, consolation and heart-felt prayers, bring hope and comfort to the Warren Family.

    Sopy

  70. @ Bridget: I have to disagree… here’s part of the article in question –

    Mad at an astonishing satanic force that stoops viciously and swoops in unscrupulously to attack children and to prey on their weaknesses as they grow up, shooting so relentlessly at one spot that they can barely get to their feet between arrows. I’ve been that child and many of you have, too. Madder still that the devil in all likelihood delights in nothing more than targeting the children and dearest loved ones of true servants of God. Nothing tries our faith like the suffering of our children.

    That is SO “strategic-level spiritual warfare/NAR/Third Wave/dominionist talk, not to mention (imo) outrightly superstitious and (again, imo) not really true – is the devil so very powerful? Does mental illness come from the devil? Is mental illness really mental illness, or an infliction of demons? (and so on.)

    I heard directly – from many people – that my own struggles with depression and anxiety were caused by demons, unconfessed sin, and a few other things I won’t go into here.

    Thank God I did not listen to them – or rather, I heard them out, said nothing, and went for treatment anyway.

    Guess what’s worked out and what’s proved to be phony?

  71. @ numo: I do agree with her re. suffering over seeing the suffering of one’s own children, though. (A sentence I hadn’t intended to leave in the bit I quoted.)

  72. @ Eagle: I hear you, and I’m afraid that the number of military suicides in Afghanistan actually is higher than the combined casualty figures.

    So it has been happening for a while now… I don’t have the stats at hand, but Google should pull that up for you.

    Eagle, I despair of most evangelical approaches to mental illness, trauma, grief and other emotional pain. And I have personally been running into those attitudes since the 1970s.

    The best thing that’s happened to me – in some senses – has been to be removed from the places where I was continually told that I could never be “good enough” and looked on with suspicion for seeking medical treatment and therapy. Granted, the trauma of being booted is something I’d never wish on anyone (myself included!) again, but learning to think freely and being able to learn to stop the endless self-destructive tape loop in my head (the “you’ll never be good enough” spiel) has brought me new life, hope and a much less painful emotional life.

    I have a lot of people to thank for that, including one very gifted therapist who specializes in grief counseling.

  73. @ numo: The greatest support I’ve ever had did NOT come from church or church people, though I do believe that God has been there with me (even when it felt like he was absent) all along.

  74. @ Eagle: Oh Eagle, I probably have just as many stories as you, if not more – after all, I was in the charismatic world from the early 70s til just over 10 years ago.

    Am a veteran of more than a few “deliverance” sessions myself (being prayed for, that is). I’ve seen and heard people insist that things as diverse as eating disorders, depression and tobacco smoking were caused by demons. In my case, one of the things I was told was that a “demon of nicotine [was] running up and down [my] chest.”

    Not joking.

    I’ve even had people pray for me for deliverance from demons caused by familial involvement in Freemasonry. (This is part of the “curse” theology that many of these folks so firmly believe in.)

    All superstition. None of it true.

    I know that now, but for decades I lived with two very different ways of thinking – and worlds where I lived – side by side. One was the real world outside these churches; the other was what went on inside them.

  75. @ numo: In the case of the eating disorder, I actually saw someone forcibly “prayed over.” She didn’t want it and was crying and screaming for them to stop.

    They didn’t.

  76. @ Jeff S: Gotta admit, our views of illness (etc.) are quite different!

    At one point, I believed as you do, but it just doesn’t work for me re. much suffering and illness, let alone things like genocide (where I do believe the darkness comes from human hearts and minds, not the devil).

  77. @ numo:
    We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one- I think she was using vivid word pictures to illustrate that this wasn’t his fault. I will say that Beth Moore isn’t known to be a huge spiritual warefare type. And with all of that, I don’t see anything that suggests she doesn’t believe in seeking treatment for mental illness.

    I really think, especially given the broader context of her piece, that she was trying to defend this boy from detractors who want to blame he or his family. But I do understand where you are coming from, and maybe there are hints in her language that I just don’t see because I haven’t been where you have.

  78. @ numo:
    Well I think that ultimately all bad things that happen in the world delight the devil and are at least partially his work. Not trying to excuse the dark hearts of men, but I believe the devil was definitely working in Nazi Germany.

  79. @ numo:
    But so you know, if someone tried to kill themslves or was suffering depression, my first stop would be to take them to the hospital. Would I pray? Of course, but I also would take care of the immediate physical/emotional needs as well.

  80. @ Jeff S: I’m not referring to the rest of the piece, but to those early ‘graphs, which I think are very unhelpful (to put it mildly).

    You could say – fairly – that that kind of hyperbole and imagery are *very* triggering for me personally, due to what I’ve been through.

    I think she’s not so subtly communicating a view of mental illness that’s bound to have bad (even potentially disastrous) repercussions, and I wish she had talked to some actual mental health professionals before making such an over the top (and again, imo) glaringly inaccurate statement.

    No worries on our divergence in views, Jeff. I just can’t see something like that without wanting to holler back hard. (And not in a “You go, Beth!” way.)

    She is so influential… that’s part of the problem with such statements.

  81. @ Jeff S: oh hey, I never doubted that for one second!

    You seem very well-informed and empathetic. I just wish others had the information and education on mental illness that you clearly do.

  82. @ Jeff S:

    Jeff S,

    I remember that song The Edge. It really spoke to me when it was new as I know the place he’s talking about.

    I’ve always appreciated Michael Card.

  83. @ Jeff S.:

    “There was a checklist of things she had to acknowledge she was giving up her “right” to (including the right to be loved).”

    Here’s a quote I found sometime last year from a female patriarchal blogger (Laura Grace Robins). I’m so glad I wrote down the source when I found it because I never would have remembered it.

    “Love is not something a woman deserves from her husband, but something she earns through obedience.” (http://fullofgraceseasonedwithsalt.blogspot.com/2010/06/submitting-love.html)

  84. numo wrote:

    I’ve even had people pray for me for deliverance from demons caused by familial involvement in Freemasonry. (This is part of the “curse” theology that many of these folks so firmly believe in.)
    All superstition. None of it true.

    I think these guys are LARPing without realizing it, playing Mighty Magic-Users and Demon-hunting Clerics in a live version of D&D (Call of Cthulhu for the REAL fringie Deliverance Ministry types).

    Either that or they’re Making Mighty Magick with a Christianese Coat of paint. (We used to call occult fanboys “Masters of Mighty Magick”; it wasn’t a complement.) I can see how that can get to be pretty heady — “I’m A Master of Mighty Magick! If it weren’t for MY Discernment and Mighty Spiritual Warfare, the Devil would win!” Sometimes I think these guys have made the Devil more Mighty than God — otherwise, why would God need Mighty Spiritual Warriors (or a starship)? And maybe that explains why they’re often so shrill — they’ve made the Demons so Powerful, maybe deep down inside they’re wondering if they chose the losing side?

  85. Warwick wrote:

    I still get up every day, and face the unrelenting joyless grey, and keep inching forwards. I keep praying to a God that I believe is there, but I don’t hear. Sometimes my prayer is just “have mercy on me, a sinner, o God.”

    This sounds like what I also live with. But seeing what you wrote encourages me to believe our lives make a difference, at least partly because we are willing to say these things. If your comment encourages me, maybe I can in turn encourage someone else even from my joyless grey. If people like us had all killed ourselves, who would be able to speak from experience in a time like this?

  86. Hester wrote:

    “Love is not something a woman deserves from her husband, but something she earns through obedience.” (

    Sounds just like Jesus. (sarcasm alert)

  87. Patrice wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs.

    …and Won’t be Taken In.

    I first started using that line of Lewis’s a couple years ago to describe the
    “invincible ignorance” of Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory types, when Conspiracy Theory becomes a completely-closed system without any opening for or possibility of a reality check. Lewis pegged the attitude dead on.

  88. Hester wrote:

    @ Rachel:
    “I think some people’s filters somehow drop when they are online.”
    It’s easy to dehumanize someone you can’t see. It’s the same reason a lot of teenagers break up with their boyfriends/girlfriends via a text rather than doing it in person. It’s a lot easier to be a jerk when you can’t see the hurt, angry, etc. expression and body language.

    I’ve heard it called “Net Drunk Syndrome”. And being safely out of fist range or other retaliation makes it a lot easier.

    (Remember the phrase “Instant A-hole, just add alcohol”?
    Well, this is “Instant A-hole, just add broadband and a handle”.)

  89. I have never been involved in any Charismatic movement or third wave or whatever. So I really cannot speak to that. I do not think mental illness is a demon.

    However, I think scripture in the NT makes a case that Satan does roam this earth looking to devour and uses anything he can against us. I also believe that most all of the evil on earth comes from humans whom Satan delights in. If that makes me some sort of third wave wacko I guess I have to allow some to think of me that way.

    I am concerned that there is a false dilemma of “No Satan at all or Wacko Charismatics thinking all sin or evil is Satan/Demons”

  90. @ Jeff S:

    Jeff. Thanks for the link to your article. Scary scary stuff. How fatalistic. How damning. NOuthetic counseling was all the rage at SBTS a few years back. Not sure if it still is but I would not be surprised. That method is especially horrible for someone who has been abused.

    However, it might be perfect for a narcissistic sociopath but then, they rarely go to counseling! They might, however, use the method to control others. And there ya go!

  91. Anon 1 wrote:

    I am concerned that there is a false dilemma of “No Satan at all or Wacko Charismatics thinking all sin or evil is Satan/Demons”

    “There are two errors mankind can fall into regarding the race of Devils. We either deny their very existence, or not only acknowledge their existence but take an unhealthy interest in them.”
    — C.S.Lewis, Preface to Screwtape Letters (from memory)

  92. @ Anon 1:
    It’s definitely alive and kicking. We get a HUGE number of domestice abuse survivors at our blog who tell us about their Nouthetic Counsling experiences. It’s sickening.

    And yes, while I shielded my ex from being subjected to it while we were still married, my therapist (who didn’t even know of Nouthetic Counsling before he met me) told me it would probably be good for my ex based on my description!

  93. @ Eagle:

    Wait . . . Challies writes at Discerning Reader?!?! I’m starting to have real reservations about this guy. He is a critic of Christian books elsewhere besides his blog? I wonder how many of the books are from Reformed authors (at that “Christian” site?) versus non-Reformed writers? (No offense meant JeffS.)

    Discernment blogs are bad and shouldn’t be read, but HE is qualified (by who/what?) to recommend (or not) “Christian” books at Discerning Reader. (eye-roll)

  94. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    There are two errors mankind can fall into regarding the race of Devils. We either deny their very existence, or not only acknowledge their existence but take an unhealthy interest in them.”
    – C.S.Lewis, Preface to Screwtape Letters (from memory)

    Thank you Hug. That is exactly what I was thinking of but too lazy to look up the quote. It is funny, I recommended Mere Christianity to friend who is Agnostic and he also bought Screwtape letters. He ended up reading Screwtape first after trying to read MC and it really made him think deeply. He said it made him think: Who am I serving?

  95. @ Anon 1:

    I skimmed the post quoted originally by Laura Grace Robbins. In it, she makes a comment that is perhaps more telling than she realises:

    Don’t necessarily look for a Christian woman, but a submissive woman. If she is not a Christian, but you would like her to be, there is a good chance that her submissive nature will gravitate toward Christianity with just some guidance on your part. In fact, I’d say my submissive personality led me to Christianity, before Christianity ever lead me to submission.

    What seems to’ve happened is that her submissive personality attracted to certain aspects of Christianity, taken out of context and presented to her so that she could recast an exaggerated and carnal submissiveness as a virtue.

    If I understand the whole process of “being saved” (or “sanctification” as a properly educated theologian mightest understandeth unto thereof), the greatest threat to our growing in Christ is not the facets of our personality that were obviously sinful before we called Jesus “lord”. (You know the list: swearing, drinking, smoking, swearing, listening to heavy metal and swearing.) It’s the things that we believe were basically pretty much “christian” already before we “got saved” and that we therefore don’t need the cross, the Holy Spirit, or any kind of new creation to fix.

  96. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Don’t necessarily look for a Christian woman, but a submissive woman. If she is not a Christian, but you would like her to be, there is a good chance that her submissive nature will gravitate toward Christianity with just some guidance on your part. In fact, I’d say my submissive personality led me to Christianity, before Christianity ever lead me to submission.

    Nick, that is the sickest thing I have ever read to date concerning salvation for women. She would do well to meet some of the women I have had the honor to correspond with through my missions work who became bold for Christ after salvation in countries where that is not permitted. One of them served time in prison in China for witnessing!

  97. Oh, how I wish some ‘christian’ people would just stop pontificating & shut up for a while. Why do we do anything at a time like this but cry for them & pray for them? That poor young man was in huge pain & now the family are – utterly tragic.

    We have an open door policy for depressed friends at our house – if they need to turn up in the middle of the night & sit on the sofa in a sleeping bag for the next two weeks waiting for suicidal urges to subside that’s what they get to do, if they need to go to hospital I will (& have)fought to get them admitted late at night. Friends took me in day after day to just be with people when I had a break down when my Mum died, no rubbish spiritual talk, just love & kindness. I could barely function, but christian friends (wise ones, very wise ones) were there for me. They all know how close a call my surviving that breakdown was, & I have no sympathy for those who choose such times to offer their ‘opinions’, rather than just being kind. And as for nouthetic ‘counselling’…well, don’t get me started, that is the epitome of reductionistic ‘let’s be cruel to be kind’ crud, except there is no kindness, only cruelty, a hideous redefinition of a familiar kind. I hope the Warren family survuve this time, & unlike me, with their faith intact.

  98. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    P.S. “Swearing” is known, for some reason, as “cussing” in some parts of the English-speaking world.

    Cussing = cursing I expect…

  99. @ Beakerj:
    I must be really tired because I replied to a joke…weary Beaks!

    And that submissive thing made me shudder. Seriously, the authoress is surely a case-study on co-dependence & some form of pathological masochism, she is very extreme, & seems personality led rather than anything else. I despair when I read this stuff because I am cut from other cloth, I don’t mean screamingly dominant, just into equality, & secure men.

  100. Beakerj wrote:

    Oh, how I wish some ‘christian’ people would just stop pontificating & shut up for a while. Why do we do anything at a time like this but cry for them & pray for them?

    Beaker, I have a term for this pontificating cruel Christianity: Darwinian Christians. Survival of the fittist.

    The entire mega industrial complex subscribes to this brand of Christianity. Because bigger is better and powerful. Slap on your smile and come worship with the cult of personality. (leave your troubles at home. If you are not happy do not show it)

  101. @ Hester:

    Hester, the post at the link you gave is chilling.
    This woman doesn’t get Jesus or that God is love.
    She gets Islam, which means submission and she has stamped “Christianity” on it.

  102. Warwick,
    I’ve thought about your comment all day and also read the link you provided. Please don’t intrepret this as a burden in any way, that is not my intention. But I want you to know that it’s voices like yours that are teaching the church/world how to care, how to see, how to listen and how to be better human beings. I’ve learned more from my child who suffers from PTSD/depression than any other human on this planet. Please hear this only as encouragement and not a yoke, brother, we need your brave voice. You’re in my prayers.

  103. Mara wrote:

    This woman doesn’t get Jesus or that God is love.
    She gets Islam, which means submission and she has stamped “Christianity” on it.

    1) When Christianity goes sour, it tends to curdle into something resembling Islam. When Extreme Christianity goes sour, it resembles Extreme Islam.

    2) Peculiarity of Semitic languages such as Arabic — all nouns with the same three-consonant root have related meanings. Islam (submission) and Salaam (peace) both have the same root of “SLM”. Does this mean in Arabic that Peace is related to Submission, as in the Weak must Submit to the Strong? If so, it would partially explain the obsession with dominance hierarchy (a trait of all primates).

  104. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: Yep (mostly).

    I think too many xtians – and not just the more extreme charismatic types – take far too much of an “interest.”

    in other words, when bad things happen, they chalk it up to the action of demons, or to sin, or both.

    cf. Job.

    Personally, I think Jesus’ death and resurrection put paid to much of the stuff people attribute to the devil/demons – “Now is the ruler of this world cast out,” anyone?

  105. @ Beakerj: yes.

    and beaks – you are so right about what you’re saying re. people on the brink, as well as what it really *is* to show them love and compassion.

  106. @ Mara:

    I just came back from reading that link and some of the comments. That was scary and unbelievable. I noticed that a women wrote the post but many of the commentors were men — talking about the issues they were having with their wives 🙁

  107. Anon 1 wrote:

    Thank you Hug. That is exactly what I was thinking of but too lazy to look up the quote.

    And that passage actually ends with “The Devils hail a Materialist or a Magician with equal delight.”

    It is funny, I recommended Mere Christianity to friend who is Agnostic and he also bought Screwtape letters. He ended up reading Screwtape first after trying to read MC and it really made him think deeply. He said it made him think: Who am I serving?

    Even if you’re not Christian per se, you can understand Screwtape Letters as a description of how “the Dark Side” can appeal to you and do its dirty work in you. Told in personified form (Screwtape) as a story instead of a treatise of abstract principles and axioms.

  108. @ numo:

    Sorry you were put through all that nonesense, Numo. I’m not unfamiliar with depression or dealing with children struggling with it. It is not a straightforward or easy illness to figure out. It is complicated and life changing without the beat down from Christians.

  109. * Please feel free to get rid of that repeat comment.

    I seem to be stuck in moderation, for whatever reason…

  110. @ Bridget: Thanks, Bridget!

    The thing is, I ultimately came out of it OK, but not everyone does – especially because of the virulent anti-psychotherapeutic biases of so many who ought to know better.

    That and… part of my problem ended up being SAD. Light box purchases and used daily – problem solved. (Though the thought of living without a good light box makes me shudder.)

    Simple biological problem; elegant, simple solution.

    NOT “sin” or “demons” or “rebellion”…

  111. However, I am about 90 billion miles away from the whole Frank Peretti-ish views of these things espoused by so many Third Wave/dominionist types.
    Evil is evil… but you know, I have yet to see any writing by Holocaust survivors, Jewish theologians, etc. that attributes the Holocaust and the Nazis (who killed many others prior to their implementation of the “final solution” – most of them gentile) to the devil or demons.
    While demons figure in European Jewish folklore, Judaism has never, ever taken the view of “Satan” that xtianity takes. The satan (small s, btw – it’s just “adversary,” not THE adversary, in Hebrew) in Job is viewed as a member of the heavenly court who is raising questions to God – a kind of literary set up.
    At least, so far, that seems to be the consensus – for centuries past – of Jewish scholars, and I’m not going to protest that.
    I know Wenatchee the Hatchet has recommended a series of books (3, by the same author) on the development of ideas about demons during the intertestamental [sp?] period and after, and I have them stashed somewhere (but cannot recall the author’s name off the top of my head). There are some other good sources on the history and development of the theology of “the devil and his angels” that I want to investigate as well.
    Re. “the devil and his angels,” Revelation is apocalyptic and full of symbols. I think we get overly literal about it at our peril.

  112. I suggest that the responses to Matthew Warren’s death quoted above in Frank Viola’s article say more about the people making them than they do about Rick Warren.

  113. I don’t have documentation for this but years ago I read a statement that Ruth Bell Graham supposedly made on hearing of a young man’s suicide, and I think it applies to Matthew Warren: “God may not have called him home, but He surely welcomed him.”

    I have seen how proper treatment (including medication) for mental illness gave my child his life back. Our Christian psychiatrist said, “Christians have no problem taking insulin for diabetes, or oxygen for emphysema, or antibiotics for an infection. Why should we think that the brain is the only organ in our bodies not affected by the fall?”

  114. @ Nick & Anon 1:

    “Don’t necessarily look for a Christian woman, but a submissive woman. If she is not a Christian, but you would like her to be, there is a good chance that her submissive nature will gravitate toward Christianity with just some guidance on your part.”

    In other words, we learn what her real priorities are. Submission first. Christianity second.

    Also, make sure she is weak-minded enough that she will conform to your beliefs just to fit in and go along with the crowd. Trouble is, if the husband ever “loses control” somehow, she will go just as easily with the first shiny idea that walks by after Christianity, as long as there is a strong enough personality attached to it. Or if he ever de-converts, she will go along with it follow him to the next religion simply because he’s going there.

    The “model” woman described in the quote has no internal voice…maybe even no conscience. She listens only to the external voices around her. My personal guess, she probably used “everybody else was doing it” as her excuse for caving to peer pressure in some way in high school and/or middle school. We (rightly) demonize it at that age so why should we encourage it in adult women?

  115. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    HUG: “The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs…and Won’t be Taken In.”

    “Well, at any rate there’s no Humbug here.”

    Marvelous app to many groups inside the Christiania Stable.

    Heehaw.

  116. Kindakrunchy wrote:

    I’ve encountered many who view judging others this way. It’s very twisted to normal people, but this is how they view it. [i.e. “telling the truth in love”]

    I’ve seen that before – Christians who use the Bible to bash and beat someone, but who then say they were providing a service or doing the Lord’s work(*).

    I’m reminded of part of a book I read by a psychiatrist (‘The Disease to Please: Curing the People-Pleasing Syndrome’ by Dr. Harriet Braiker) who discusses the secular equivalent in her book under the heading Can “Total Honesty” Disguise Anger?, and she condemns the behavior.

    (I don’t believe the Bible supports clubbing and beating people with truth or criticism.)

    Here’s a quote from Braiker’s book about the same phenomenon among everyone, not only Christians:

    Understandably the recipient of an unsolicited, gratuitously hurtful, but supposedly candid communication often responds angrily or demonstrates hurt feelings.

    The speaker then compounds the pain by rhetorically asking, “What’s wrong with you? I’m just being completely honest,” implying that the response should have been appreciation or even gratitude.

    …. Using the word honesty as a shield to rationalize cruelty is a corruption of moral intent. Kindness, too, is a moral virtue.

    I think her comments can also apply to Christians who misuse the Bible to beat other people.

    *Which also brings to mind (from John 16, Christ speaking to his disciples about their opponents):

    “They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.”

  117. Eagle wrote:

    Gail…got your message from JA Smith.

    Thanks Eagle- no hurry or pressure, but I look forward to hearing from you.

  118. Kindakrunchy wrote:

    If you point out how very twisted this is, they’ll attack you and tell you how messed up YOU are because you are not willing to state God’s true word, and tell you that you are not loving.

    Something else just occurred to me about this. Out of all the people Jesus approached, or they approached Him, you will notice he treated them differently.

    Even though the Pharisees were outstanding in some regards – their theology was right on, in many areas (even Jesus said so) – but they treated people horribly and showed no mercy, and Jesus chewed them out like nobody’s business for that.

    When talking to prostitutes, I don’t recall Jesus screaming at the prostitutes for committing sexual sin and beating them over the head with Old Testament passages condemning fornication.

    Jesus let the women caught in adultery know that He was not fine with her sexual sin, but He also forgave her and didn’t rub her nose in the sin.

    Even the Apostle Paul didn’t go all freak out, condemnation, hostile, judgmental mode when talking about people’s sins when he wrote letters to the churches correcting them on their sexual sins and other sins. He seemed to show more anger over the Judaizers (people working against the teaching of grace).

    I’m not opposed to Christians making appeals to Scripture to make a point about behavior or morality, but they really should try harder to be more caring or polite when they do refer to the Bible at those times.

  119. @ Kindakrunchy:

    Daisy, this was to your first comment to me, but I also agree with your second!! He called the pharasees “white washed sepluchres” and “brood of vipers”. Harsh.
    He never once called the prostitutes, women in adultery, tax collectors, or party guys that.

    And Paul said to mourn with those who mourn. Right before he said to not be proud and be willing to associate with those of low position. And to not be conceited.

    Somehow that fits, doesn’t it?!!

  120. @ StillWiggling:

    I’m not familiar with that one, and I’ve watched lots of Christian television (which runs movies too) the last several years.

    There’s a site called IMDB that might have information about the movie you’re looking for, if they carry Christian movies. If they have a search field, you can try looking up terms such as “masks” in the Christian film category.

    The only movie I found that sounds even a little close to yours, after a very brief search was, “Behind the Mask” from 1999.

    There’s a site with the URL christianmovies.com that might have information on the movie.

    Some of us were just discussing Christian entertainment here a few days ago (some of these posts were for Headless Unicorn Guy):
    My post about Christian movies and shows (and another right below it)

  121. Eagle wrote:

    Guys…what do you know about Edward Welch?
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-counselor-depression-demands-living-by-faith-not-by-sight-93701/
    Is this Neuretic (sp?) counseling and is he opposed to medicine? I’m curious. I read the above link in the Christian Post. Its my understanding that his material is used in Sovereign Grace churchs…can anyone confirm that?

    I’ve read one of Ed Welch’s books, not on depression, but on another topic.

    I’m not sure if Welch considers himself a nouthetic counseler, but, if I remember correctly, he believes that secular counseling is worldly or wrong, and that Christian counselors should use only the Bible alone to treat patients.

    Welch also practices blaming the victim, even of sexual abuse.

    He tells his sexual abuse patients (this is recorded by himself in his book that I read) that they are to admit to their part in their abuse, to admit that their personal sin played a role, even if they were only 9 or 10 years old when they were abused by an adult. I find that abhorrent.

    Welch does not believe that people have psychological needs or a need to receive love from humans or from God. He says so on one page in the book of his I own.

    You know how the Bible tells Christians to look to God/Jesus to get their needs met? Welch says (in the book of his I have) that this is idolatry. I found that bizarre.

    Most of Welch’s views are awful, and his book did nothing to help me with the particular problem I had – I had to turn to another book by another set of Christian author, and one by a Non Christian author to get help.

    Eagle, in the page you linked, they quote Welch as saying (and I do not believe this is bad advice):

    “Welch encourages the people he counsels to speak to God, and “if the pain is too strong, and there are no words, to read from the book of Psalms.”

    He occasionally makes a good comment like that, but some of his other views are strange or can be hurtful to someone with a mental health problem.

  122. “He tells his sexual abuse patients (this is recorded by himself in his book that I read) that they are to admit to their part in their abuse, to admit that their personal sin played a role, even if they were only 9 or 10 years old when they were abused by an adult. I find that abhorrent.”

    This is exactly what a mega church pastor told a woman I know who was abused so badly by her ex husband she needed 6 operations to fix the damage. She was 21 Years old and he was the typical sociopathic type who hid his demeanor under charm until he had her under his control.

    Years later, this same mega church pastor (still is today) was beat up badly while out of town when his car broke down. He was so angry about it the elders had to keep him off stage for a while. When it happened to him, he was outraged but he was NOT to blame.

    Funny how that works.

  123. Eagle wrote:

    So are we going to tell a combat veteran who survived an IED attack, spent months in Walter Reed, having prosetic limbs applied, etc… who deals with mental scars, depression, PTSD that all they need is to love Jesus to overcome their mental health issues born from war?

    Oh Eagle, no, no, it’s worse than that if you saw the post I just did about another Welch book I read.

    Unless Welch has changed his views since he published the book I read (and maybe he has, I don’t know), he’d say that:

    > These marines, soldiers, air men, and sailors returning from tours of duty don’t need Jesus’ love, (or love of other people);

    > they don’t have psychological needs (that’s a worldly invention, he says);

    > and that them turning to Jesus for love/ comfort is idolatry.

    (So why Jesus insisted that “loving God” and “loving other people” were the first and second most important commandments, I don’t know – Welch’s views makes those commandments null, void, and pointless)

    That was what Welch had to say in a book I read about people who have been sexually abused and those who have anxiety attacks, etc., so he’d probably apply the same reasoning to war veterans.

    I think I still have his book around, but I’d have to look around for it, unless I threw it away. I think I still have it somewhere.

    Welch even has specific terms for his view that your personal sin played a role in causing you to be abused/ hurt.

    If you want to suggest a book to Christians who are going through depression, one by an actual Christian doctor (I think he’s a psychiatrist), I’d go with Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded? by Dwight L. Carlson, M.D.

    There were one or two small points I didn’t see eye to eye on with Carlson, but over all, his book was quite good, and he has genuine empathy for Christians who have depression and anxiety.

    In that book, Carlson does not blame people for having depression or blame it on personal sin, and he defends why Christians should see doctors and take medication for depression and anxiety. He also refutes the arguments of anti- medication usage, anti- psychology views by other Christian authors.

  124. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Don’t necessarily look for a Christian woman, but a submissive woman.

    Yikes that is creepy on many levels.

    I’ve read many blogs and several books where some that discuss domestic abuse (specifically men who abuse their wives), and the authors (mental health professionals, many of whom who have been in counseling for 20 – 30 years) all tell (and warn) women that abusive men intentionally seek submissive, shy, compliant, passive (i.e., codependent) women because they are so much easier to control and manipulate.

  125. Anon 1 wrote:

    Funny how that works.

    Oh yeah, it’s something I mentioned in my post at I-monk.

    Christians can be very heartless in talking to people with depression, sexual abuse in their past, (or whatever they may be suffering from), if they themselves never suffered from it.

    The moment these types of Christians do suffer from whatever ‘it’ is, they all the sudden have a change of views on that topic.

  126. Daisy wrote:

    Even though the Pharisees were outstanding in some regards – their theology was right on, in many areas (even Jesus said so) – but they treated people horribly and showed no mercy, and Jesus chewed them out like nobody’s business for that.

    I know what you mean… Except I’m struggling to think of where and when Jesus even said their theology was right on. If anything, it was their theology – the very thing they prided themselves on – that he most often took them to task over. They nullified the word of God with their traditions, for instance, and the traditions in this case were theological ones. And Jesus described broad concepts like justice, and the love of God, as being the weightier matters of the law.

    I like the way Bill Johnson (and probably others) once put it: Jesus Christ is perfect theology. Those who put the cart before the horse – i.e. trying to reach Jesus by first calculating the perfect theology – end up with neither. The first thing that put me off Park Fiscal was listening to a sermon series of his. This was before I knew anything of his misogyny, pride or lording it over his fellow elders. It was the sheer volume of crude and banal inaccuracies as he pontificated (or, as he claimed, “taught”) on the topic of “spiritual gifts”.

  127. I think a theology that addresses suffering is vital, being a Christian does not protect a person from suffering , we follow a Saviour who suffered physically and emotionally. I have spent all my adult life living with chronic pain, it has caused me to long for death at times. Few people can stay with you through it as it is upsetting and , I think, people recoil from it. Maeve Binchy wrote that you have to careful who you discuss it with for this reason. Paul spoke of despairing even of life itself. For me I am blessed to have a supportive church, good friends and family . I struggle to understand why , I have been disabled all my life and I spent years in an orthopaedic hospital as a child. I have always believed in God and my situation has caused me to cry out to Him, question Him etc I’m grateful I got married, had children , can work despite my body. The one thing I would encourage people to do is be kind to one another especially to those who struggle

  128. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    “But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. (Luke 11:42 ESV)”

    He says they are right in the way that they tithe, but that they neglect justice- this can easily be understood as having right theology, but poor treatment of others.

  129. @ Mollycar: Physical pain is so draining. I cannot imagine what it is like to feel such pain day in and day out. And then, all of those surgeries as a child?! You may talk about your pain all you want on this blog and know that you will be welcomed and prayed for every time you comment.

  130. @ Mollycar:

    Do many people tell you that you don’t have “real” pain or that you’re just trying to get sympathy or attention?

    Also, have you had people tell you that if you just had enough faith that you’d be healed?

    Chronic pain does not fit into a nice neat box that God “fixes” if you follow the right principles or have the right kind of faith.

  131. Hester wrote:

    Maybe he’s SDA. That was the way the crazy SDA I had a runin with thought. I think bacon really is equivalent to adultery in their theology.

    I thought exactly the same about whoever wrote that, mainly because I was a SDA and that quote pushed all the right keys. For some members of the SDA church, not all, eating a ham sandwich would be, in a sense, equivalent to fornication or other types of sins… If you do that, you’re basically breaking God’s law.

  132. Dee, thanks so much for your kind words, I really appreciate them. I has both knees replaced in February and I’m recouperating . I have already had both hips replaced so I’ve got the complete set !!

  133. I have had some crazy comments especially from people who get frustrated and want God to ” fix ” me, I think they trash about for an explaination and it is easy to blame my lack of faith . I have found , however, that most Christians are caring and supportive . I do find it difficult that many people ask me how I am but are not able to cope with negative feedback so I often say ” I’m grand thank God ” . I was once berated by a supervisor for the emotional toll it took on her when I experienced acute pain in her presence !!!!!!b>@ Kindakrunchy:

  134. @ Mollycar:

    O, Mollycar both knees replaced, was that done at the same time? I can only imagine how difficult that has been. I will pray for you. My husband is almost a bionic man…

  135. A friend told me, “You should treat everyone you meet like they are hurting, because most of the time you’ll be right.” Something I try to keep in mind …

  136. Gail wrote:

    My husband is almost a bionic man. I should have added He has had surgery after surgery getting parts replaced.

  137. @ Bene Diction:

    “Cousar rightly points out that Moore does what she is critical of and he lists the names she calls the critics of Rick Warren:

    Hateful
    Relentless
    Bullies
    Mud slingers
    Mean
    Careless
    Self seeking
    Haters
    Mockers
    Slanderers
    Snide
    Self serving
    Enemies”

    I just got around to reading what Moore and Cousar wrote. Experiencing the loss of a child is something I pray I will never have to deal with and find it just awful that people would not have anything grief and compassion for anyone, no matter who he/she is, who has lost a child.

    After the above list of names, Cousar wrote:

    “That’s a stunning number of insults for one article to contain. I would challenge anyone to find a prominent Christian critic of Warren’s who has used any of these kinds of insults against him. And I would further challenge anyone to find a prominent Christian critic who has used this many insults and slurs in a single article.”

    Challenge accepted and article found. Here is my list taken from a prominent professing Christian informer of the reformed discerner and blogger’s recent article he wrote about discernment bloggers who are nameless:

    not truthful
    unloving
    operating in fear
    intimidating
    speculators
    fabricators
    willing to destroy a reputation
    playground bullies of the internet
    operating by lies/halftruths
    defamers
    tabloid level scurrilous accusations
    gossip tactics
    hungry sharks
    foul
    thriving on attention
    fools
    angry
    of little integrity
    little concern for truth and love
    violators of conscience
    polluters of minds
    disrupters of love for others

    I think it is shocking to see the words in a list like that. Where is the love in his article (that he laments the nameless discernment bloggers lack)? Nowhere.

  138. Mollycar wrote:

    The one thing I would encourage people to do is be kind to one another especially to those who struggle

    I heartily agree, kindness will actually change the world, one person at a time. I now reject standard Christian teaching about human suffering because in my opinion, the Jewish view makes more sense:

    In Judaism, however, suffering is anything but redemptive. It leads to a tortured spirit and a pessimistic outlook on life. It scars our psyches and brings about a cynical consciousness, devoid of hope. Suffering causes us to dig out the insincerity of the hearts of our fellows and to be envious of other people’s happiness. If individuals do become better people as a result of their suffering, it is despite the fact that they suffered, not because of it. Ennoblement of character comes through triumph over suffering, rather than its endurance.

  139. I’m going to speak cautiously, have raised a mentally ill son myself.

    We of course want to give nothing but compassion to the Warren’s in this time of grief.

    But that said, I’ve personally watched the whole purpose driven culture/mindset/theology drive people into deep depression. Never doing enough, always more to do, yet expected to find the faith rather “burger king” as in have it your way.

    This two minded works salvation can be an added burden on those susceptible to depression.

    So while holding the Warren’s in prayer and compassion, perhaps Matthew’s death really is a time or cause to speak up and reevaluate the theology.

    There is nothing mean or hateful about saying it is wrong to give your child poison.

    And there is nothing mean or hateful about questioning if the theology we give our children is poison to them also.

  140. Linda, I spent quite a few years around the celebrity mega industrial complex Christian world. If there was one thing that I was always concerned about were the children raised in the middle of that world in a fishbowl where building huge churches and having large followings were the end all goal because it was for God. A lot of energy was spent in those circles trying to keep the teens problems out of sight. I am not saying this is the case here but I did see it quite a bit in those circles while building huge churches, speaking all over the place and writing books.

    There is no need to bring it up during a time of crisis. To me, it has less to do with the doctrine than the methods employed. You have a kid with serious problems? You give up everything but the basics of earning a living and pour yourself into that situation.

  141. I hesitated to read this thread because I knew that there would be a lot of pain shared.

    I have seen the complete lack of compassion by Christians for those struggling (and failing in their struggle) with mental illness. It was a co-worker, and I was the one who called our boss, who was out of town at the time, when the behavior crossed the intensity line between normal-acceptable to not acceptable-worrisome. It still hurts and there was a very rough month when I was so aware of the spiritual issues involved.

    I don’t know what has happened to those involved because that job was long ago and in a now distant state. But, even now thinking about them, my prayers are for the sufferer, and my co-workers.

    I believe that there is a special place in heaven for people like Matthew; a place of peace and healing. And when they are ready those who love them will be waiting just outside the gates of hope and healing, waiting just for them.

  142. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Except I’m struggling to think of where and when Jesus even said their theology was right on.

    In that Jesus told the people that the Pharisees sat in Moses seat – I can’t recall the exact quote – Jesus said the Pharisees were good in some of what they taught but did not practice what they preach, and that was His fault with them. I’ll see if I can find which passage that was.

    Oh, sometimes, when Jesus debated the religious guys, he favored one school over the others, the Pharisees interpretation of something vs the Sadducees.

    Like, both religious factions would quibble over ‘do people re-marry in heaven,’ (and other topics) group A said “Yes they sure do,” group B said “No, they do not,” and Jesus would say “group thus- and- so was correct on that particular argument.” So Jesus did not always fault the religious groups for having bad theological beliefs.

    This is one of the passages I was thinking of:

    Matthew 23, Jesus on the teaching of the Pharisees

    Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

    That seems to me that Jesus was giving his approval of most or much of their teaching.

  143. @ Kindakrunchy:

    Chronic pain does not fit into a nice neat box that God “fixes” if you follow the right principles or have the right kind of faith.

    People with mental health problems get those cliches too, that you mentioned above that sentence.

    The other part of your post I liked (that I quoted), was that some Christians don’t want to address that a Christian can or will suffer from the same problem for years (as in chronic problems).

    I find many Christian testimonials on television depressing, because 9 out of 10 times, they interview people who had a problem for weeks or years who were delivered of it within minutes, hours, or days (whether it was physical pain, psychological health problems, financial problems, relationship problems).

    I have seldom heard Christians on Christian television shows (or in Christian magazines) interview Christians who have said, “I had problem X for weeks (or years), and after 30 years of praying, I still have not been delivered of ‘X’ and am still under going X.”

    Also, those guys who pray for people on Christian TV, a few of them keep telling their audience that it’s “not God’s will not to deliver you from healing. It’s God’s will to heal you.”

    I don’t know if it’s in “God’s will” or not (I don’t care to debate all that), but I find it misleading to reassure people of a healing when it may never happen.

    We have all known Christians who prayed for years or decades for a healing (or for something else) and never received what they prayed for, or many years went by before the situation was resolved.

    Christians do not want to discuss or tackle unanswered prayer, or, if you are the Christian who has not had answered prayer, you will be blamed for it, as in something like, “if God has not answered your prayer after all this time, it’s probably because you have unconfessed sin in your heart.”

    For someone who is / was sincerely living the Christian life as best he/she knows how, those sorts of answers create so much pain.

    What if you do not have unconfessed sin in your heart, you are not holding a grudge, you’re not living in sin, you are reading your Bible daily, you are trusting God, you are praying daily and doing all the other stuff Christians say you are to do, but God is still not responding? Preachers never, ever broach that subject.

    They just like to assume you’re not hearing from God because you are at fault in some way.

  144. @ Anon 1:

    A lot of energy was spent in those circles trying to keep the teens problems out of sight

    I read some comments a few years ago by people who were former members of the Joel Osteen church in Houston.

    One former Osteen church member said there was such an emphasis on being upbeat and sunny in Osteen’s church, that some people there felt as though they could not be “real” and admit to other believers if they were going through a struggle.

    Personally, I like the fact that Osteen reminds people that many of his sermons are upbeat and reminds people that Jesus loves them – the man gets hounded by other Christians who think he should be more ‘hellfire and brimstone.’

    On the other hand, his constant upbeat and sunny demeanor can be depressing after awhile.

    I’ve seen other Christians and preachers who are the same way. They stress being optimistic and sunny so much you wonder if they have every experience set backs and pain in life, if they can relate to you or anything you’ve gone through, or if they will blame you in your periods of anger, depression, etc, for not being more upbeat.

    I think there’s an overall propensity among the majority of American Christians to live in denial about pain in life, and to distance themselves from people who are undergoing type of pain, loss, or grief.

    The realization that bad things do happen to good people seems to frighten most of them, or with some, they can’t be bothered to give up an hour or two of their time a week or month and let a hurting person discuss their situation over a cup of coffee.

  145. A correction to my last post where I said,
    “Personally, I like the fact that Osteen reminds people that many of his sermons are upbeat and reminds people that Jesus loves them”

    I meant, “Personally, I like the fact that many of Osteen’s sermons are upbeat and that he reminds people that Jesus loves them…” but I didn’t edit it to say that before submitting the post.

  146. @ numo:

    “in other words, when bad things happen, they chalk it up to the action of demons, or to sin, or both.

    cf. Job.

    Personally, I think Jesus’ death and resurrection put paid to much of the stuff people attribute to the devil/demons – “Now is the ruler of this world cast out,” anyone?”
    ****************

    numo,

    that makes interesting sense. I wonder…. there is such a thing as ghosts — one in the centuries-old home my husband grew up in (a female in victorian dress who is very talkative who makes a filmy appearance now and then — this has been happening since the time my husband lived there).

    I’ve wondered if experiences like these are “echos” from the past. Time is bigger, more complex than our experience of it.

    my husband had another experience — doing the water in crystal glasses thing where you rub your finger around the rim of the glass and it generates a pretty sound. They had several glasses with differing water levels to match tones. They recorded the music they created. on the recording, there were sounds of doors slamming and screaming and shouting. The home where they were doing this musical experiment was the site of a woman’s prison long, long ago.

    So, perhaps echos of the past, that can get triggered by the present somehow.

    I wonder if a sense of the demonic (legitimate or imagined) in bad circumstances, or the bad circumstances themselves, is somehow an echo of a past reality — since we do have the statement “Now is the ruler of this world cast out”.

    Exploring off-topic, here.

  147. @ Beakerj:

    “We have an open door policy for depressed friends at our house – if they need to turn up in the middle of the night & sit on the sofa in a sleeping bag for the next two weeks waiting for suicidal urges to subside that’s what they get to do, if they need to go to hospital I will (& have)fought to get them admitted late at night.”
    ************

    beakerj — this is just absolutely awesome. This is the most poignant example of kindness, brotherly/sisterly love I’ve ever come across. I will never forget this.

  148. Thanks for all the wonderful comments.

    I understand some of the reasons for why I’m this way; they’re the same reasons I’m drawn to TWW.

    I experienced spiritual abuse for a large chunk of my life which was very different to some of the things, but simultaneously, has so much in common. I’m probably not making a lot of sense here, but I’m still picking through it all.

    But thank you all for being so supportive.

  149. Numo/Elastigirl

    One of the best descriptions about the role of demons and the faith I have heard was this. We sin and do bad things. The demons are there, fanning the flames. I believe that Jesus’s death and Resurrection did change some the dynamics with the demonic. Most (not all) Prostestant theologians do not believe that Christians can be indwelled by demons and I believe that as well.

  150. I’m not a big demon or Satan guy in the sense that there is some other entity that is encouraging us to do evil. Instead, I think it’s all on us as individual humans and our ability to choose between good and evil. We are created by God in his image, which includes the gift of the power of choice, to make our own decisions in life unlike other creatures, but only God is perfect and able to choose good all the time.

    For a biblical perspective, I’ve always been intrigued by Matthew 16.23:

    But he turned and said to Peter, ‘Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling-block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.’

    To me, this means that Satan is merely a representation of our tendency to focus only on ourselves to the exclusion of what God has called us to do, so in this instance, Jesus was calling Peter Satan in the sense that Peter was appealing to Jesus’ human nature and it’s predisposition to self-preservation even to the exclusion of others. We don’t need a third party to encourage us to do the wrong thing, we have that within ourselves already as human beings.

    I know this view makes me a heretic to many, but I guess that’s the way I see it.

    On the issue of mental illness, it’s no different than any other medical illness, be it influenza, leukemia, ebola virus, etc. Sometimes it is treatable, sometimes not, but it’s a medical condition nonetheless, not a spiritual one.

  151. On morning drive-time radio this morning (April 15), they reported that Matthew Warren’s funeral was Private; his father explained this was “because of all the haters”.

  152. The Warren’s tragedy has reinforced for me the absolute necessity of being careful not to let our religion mess up our lives.

    I do not know if the Warren’s religious practices in any way whatsoever negatively impacted their son. However, we have a new pastor at our church and he is bringing in many ideas straight out of Saddleback. I can definitely see it negatively impacting one of the children in our family. I see this lovely child so devoted to Jesus losing her sense of His love and struggling with the constant fear she doesn’t measure up as good enough for God.

    We figure yesterday was our last day there.

    For good or ill we once again leave an evangelical church and return to a mainline one where at least she will hear of God’s love and watchcare.

    Beyond that we can teach at home.

    I was also saddened that in all our prayers, there were none for the Warren family. I don’t think “failure” is an option in the megachurch mentality. (A mentality a quite small church can have, and am not labeling the Warren’s as failures. Just that some perceive mental illness that way.)

    Perhaps the greatest legacy that will come from all of Rick Warren’s teachings is that this tragedy, the haters, the supporters, and all will pause, breathe, evaluate the good and toss the bad.

  153. JeffT wrote:

    I know this view makes me a heretic to many, but I guess that’s the way I see it.

    JeffT,
    You’re not alone. Although we’ve had atheists & agnostics comment here at TWW, I’m probably the only heretic that visits periodically. Over the last decade or so, I’ve come to believe that humans are also endowed by their creator with a divine nature and not just a “sin” nature. Which one we choose to cultivate is our own affair entirely. I’m also convinced at this juncture in my faith journey that Pelagius got a bad rap and got steamrolled by Augustine and the early church power brokers.

  154. Muff Potter wrote:

    I’m also convinced at this juncture in my faith journey that Pelagius got a bad rap and got steamrolled by Augustine and the early church power brokers.

    I agree.

  155. elastigirl wrote:

    “We have an open door policy for depressed friends at our house – if they need to turn up in the middle of the night & sit on the sofa in a sleeping bag for the next two weeks waiting for suicidal urges to subside that’s what they get to do, if they need to go to hospital I will (& have)fought to get them admitted late at night.”

    elastigirl wrote:

    We have an open door policy for depressed friends at our house – if they need to turn up in the middle of the night & sit on the sofa in a sleeping bag for the next two weeks waiting for suicidal urges to subside that’s what they get to do, if they need to go to hospital I will (& have)fought to get them admitted late at night.”

    Beaker, I am convinced Christians like me talked too much in such situations. Over the last several years, I have learned not to be a problem solver but to listen and love and provide whatever material help I can.

  156. Muff,

    CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) protested Paul Young when he spoke at NNU with signs saying Shack was heresy and Young went out to talk with them. Guess what the Carm guy accused him of? Being a Pelagian. :o)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMLvmsG2VqQ

    (CARM is same group that went after Cheryl Schatz of women in ministry with a vengeance)

  157. Muff Potter wrote:
    I’m also convinced at this juncture in my faith journey that Pelagius got a bad rap and got steamrolled by Augustine and the early church power brokers.

    I second that.

  158. Anon 1 wrote:

    Guess what the Carm guy accused him of? Being a Pelagian. 😮 )

    To be called a Pelagian by a Calvinist means they put you in the same category as murderers and rapists. 😮

  159. JeffT wrote:

    To be called a Pelagian by a Calvinist means they put you in the same category as murderers and rapists</blockquotes

    Tell me about it. The Calvinista leaders in the SBC are throwing it around a lot implying some of their peers are Pelagians or semi Pelagians. It is the in thing. I am just glad that burning at the stake is illegal.

  160. elastigirl wrote:

    @ Beakerj:
    “We have an open door policy for depressed friends at our house – if they need to turn up in the middle of the night & sit on the sofa in a sleeping bag for the next two weeks waiting for suicidal urges to subside that’s what they get to do, if they need to go to hospital I will (& have)fought to get them admitted late at night.”
    ************
    beakerj — this is just absolutely awesome. This is the most poignant example of kindness, brotherly/sisterly love I’ve ever come across. I will never forget this.

    I’m really touched by this, but people have done more for me. This approach is not so unusual amongst my christian friends, but I would say most of them (like me & hubs) save spent significant time in the shadows, & it’s easier for us to know what to do. My sofa comes with hot & cold running food (both junk or healthy), 2 snuggly dogs, box sets, books on tape or real books….we can also arrange for all sharp objects or hazardous chemicals or pharmaceuticals in our house to disappear magically, & to ‘hold’ your cutting box for you (if you don’t know what that is, don’t ask)if needed. It’s gotten hairy a couple of times, but nothing yet we couldn’t handle, mostly because we know our limits. I would also say that most of the people I know who take this approach are not particularly bound by convention…& so aren’t freaked out by having people randomly appear. Seriously, how can we say we love people if we don’t accompany them through life’s crap when we can? People stood between me & the edge of the abyss, it’s the least I can do for others.

  161. Anon 1 wrote:

    CARM (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) protested Paul Young when he spoke at NNU with signs saying Shack was heresy and Young went out to talk with them. Guess what the Carm guy accused him of? Being a Pelagian. )

    I assume Pelagian is Calvinispeak for Goldsteinism?

  162. Anon 1 wrote:

    Tell me about it. The Calvinista leaders in the SBC are throwing it around a lot implying some of their peers are Pelagians or semi Pelagians. It is the in thing. I am just glad that burning at the stake is illegal.

    So far. Though that could change if the Calvinista Reconstructionists get their way.

  163. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    So far. Though that could change if the Calvinista Reconstructionists get their way.

    That’s why I’m glad that our nation was founded by Enlightenment era thinkers who were well acquainted with the human misery and suffering caused by ecclesiastical polity mixed with government and who also took steps to ensure that it doesn’t happen on these shores.

  164. Please take this question as genuine and serious, not as a reflection of my ignorance and fear! Perhaps, did Matthew feel as if his own father will be responsible for demolishing Christianity, after finding out his father’s affiliation with the One World Order as a memeber of Council of Foreing Relations(CFR)???