Doug Wilson on Doing The Dishes and Discernment Blogs

When we quarrel with the way the world is, we find that the world has ways of getting back at us. In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts. -Doug Wilson 

800px-Dirty_dishes

Over at the Reformed Singles website (Motto: Prepared, Prequalified and Predestined- you cannot make this stuff up) Doug Wilson wrote a rather bizarre "advice" post (I am sure it was not a discernment post because he is well reviewed by TGC types or is it? ) titled Not Where She Should Be link. After spewing my coffee all over the table and immediately cleaning it up,  I realized that this post is a great illustration for a discussion that we want to have with heavy reader input.

What is, or is not, a discernment blog?

While doing my dishes this morning, I was mulling over the whole brouhaha regarding "discernment blogs" aka "watchblogging." 

Here is where it got totally confusing for me. This is not a diatribe on the person who wrote this post. Instead, I want to figure out what in the world folks, who are associated with certain movements, are talking about because obviously "they" know and "we" do not. These comments link outline why I have a problem.They are in chronological order.

Comment 1-Reader

xxx IS my discernment blogger! I agree, Anna, that I don't know what he's on about here because I must not read the ones that blasted him. Good for us that we don't read that junk!

Comment 2-Reader

Agreed on all counts, but this is only somewhat helpful unless you name names. Does that include Pyro? Certainly not?Apprising Ministries? Possibly. Peter Lumpkins of the SBC or other crazies? Definitely. I can't comply unless I know who's off limits.

Comment 3-Blogger

I don't know that we will always find that clear and obvious line we want, which is one of the reasons I did not name names. I agree with you about Pyro, that they do not fit the definition. 

Comment 4-Reader

So Pyro is good and others are bad? Why is that? Is it based on criticizing doctrine vs behavior? Verifiable fact vs discussion of opinion and experiences? What's the criteria?

Comment 5-Reader

Thank you, xxx. PyroManiacs is one of the better discernment blogs out there. This certainly says so much about the integrity of the writers. I almost wish you could have given us your source.

So, does the blogger claim that Pyromaniacs does or does not fit the definition of a discernment blog? I am not sure. Some other bloggers are called "crazies" by a reader which apparently is not discernment or is it?  But, the blogger did not disagree with a reader who enthusiastically called him a discernment blogger. Color me stupid while I wipe down my kitchen cabinets. There appears to be a contradiction in terminology going on within just a few comments. 

While trying to figure out the ins and outs of "discernment blogging," a blog post, written by RC Sproul Jr, in 2012, is one of the most quoted posts on the subject link. It was commended by James MacDonald as well link. Read that again. Sproul Jr who was defrocked  and whose ministry sued a blogger (we will discuss this on Monday) and James MacDonald who is up to his eyeballs in debt his own controversy link are really put out by bloggers. Oh dear….

So, I continued to clean my kitchen counters while thinking:

  • Who gets to decide what is a discernment blog?
  • What is a discernment blog? 
  • Is it good, negative, or both?
  • Why do some excoriate discernment blogs and then, promptly, promote discernment blogs?
  • Can we come up with some universal blogging code so that readers can  determine when discernment blogging is good or bad? Or would merely knowing who is a member of certain coalition and a circuit conference speaker suffice?

Request for our readers

Can you help us determine:

  • an accurate description of discernment blogs and watchblogs
  • which are good or which are bad
  • if bias figures into this 
  • and anything else that you think might be helpful?

On Monday, Deb will look at RC Sproul and Ligonier Ministries (while insuring that Junior does not try to sue us). On Wednesday we will look once again at Doug Wilson and his discussion with Thabiti Anyabwile on racism and slavery. Then we will discuss, using these posts as examples, the idea of "discernment" blogging. That is where we will use the input from our readers. 

Doug Wilson

Doug Wilson retracted this post on 4/16/13 here. Good for him!

We start our exploration with Doug Wilson who is universally admired by many in The Gospel Coalition which probably has something to do with discernment but I won't go there. He has received great reviews on some of his books by the usual book reviewers but book review blogs apparently do not involve discernment, even if they are called discerning…Am I confused or what?

We have both have read a lot about, and by, Doug Wilson and have found a number of things that disturb us. We wrote a few posts about him here, here and here. So, the following post does not seem out of character. We believe it adds one more piece to the puzzle that is called Doug Wilson.

We also believe that it highlights the current controversy over gender expectations and helps to explain why some men and women could feel that the church in America is becoming rather weird.

Doug Wilson and the Dishwasher wife who won't do the dishes.

He starts the conversation about by discussing some practical examples of what construes a woman who is rejecting her husbands "godly authority." At this point, the husband is experiencing "distress."

The symptoms can of course vary. He may be distressed over her spending habits, television viewing habits, weight, rejection of his leadership, laziness in cleaning the house, lack of responsiveness to sexual advances, whatever. But however the problem is manifested, what should a husband do? Suppose for a moment that he really wants to serve God in their marriage, and she appears to be distinctly unenthusiastic about changing. What course should a man pursue?​

Wilson says that he wants to help the husband to help her

 learn to do her duty, and to lead her as she learns what is, for her, a difficult lesson. 

Now, if the woman is a total loser, he does say to start with just one problem at a time, bless his heart.

She can learn on a representative problem. She would be overwhelmed with a requirement that she change everywhere, all at once. If, for example, the problem is one of poor housekeeping, he should require something very simple, i.e.. that the dishes be done after every meal before anything else is done.

So, he then takes the reader through the "steps" to insure obedience. It sounds a whole lot like Ezzo's "First Time Obedience" but it can't be since that is for a little child or is it?

Step One 

The first time the dishes are not done, he must sit down with his wife immediately, and gently remind her that this is something which has to be done. At no time may he lose his temper, badger her, call her names, etc. 

 Step 1 Caveat #1 The husband is the real problem since he didn't whip her into line sooner.

He must constantly remember and confess that she is not the problem, he is. By bringing this gently to her attention, he is not to be primarily pointing to her need to repent; rather, he is exhibiting the fruit of his repentance.

Step 1 Caveat #2 If at first you don't succeed, you have a rebel on your hands!

He does this, without rancour and without an accusative spirit, until she complies or rebels.

I cannot help myself. Can you imagine rebellion being defined as refusing to do the dishes??? ROFLx15 minutes.  OK, back to the topic while mopping my floor to hide all evidence of floor rolling…

Step 2 For the little woman who has learned her lesson, it's on to the next issue. It appears that there could be many, many issues needing intervention.

If she complies, he must move up one step, now requiring that another of her duties be done.

Step 2 For the little woman who continues to rebel, call in the elders! I kid you not.

If she rebels, he must call the elders of the church and ask them for a pastoral visit. When the government of the home has failed to such an extent, and a godly and consistent attempt by the husband to restore the situation has broken down, then the involvement of the elders is fully appropriate.

Seriously, can you see a group of elders sitting in a kitchen, inspecting the dirty dishes??? ROFLx30 minutes! How can I clean while reading this stuff? My dirty kitchen is Wilson's fault. Repent, Doug, repent!

It appears that Wilson cannot begin to imagine all sorts of reasons that might be at the root of this "rebellion." The husband's only problem appears to be tardy rule enforcement.

  • Depression
  • Exhaustion
  • Abuse
  • Poor division of labor
  • Too many kids and not enough help

Years ago, I was in a church which had trouble staffing the nursery, despite numerous appeals. One Sunday, the pastor was not in the pulpit. He had an elder fill in. The congregation was told that the pastor would be helping out in the nursery until it was adequately staffed. I still remember handing over my daughter to him. He was most pleasant and seemed to be enjoying himself. The nursery had all of its shifts filled within the week.

Wilson appears to overlook the idea of sacrificial love and radical servanthood in coming to a true resolution to this situation. Oh yeah, and what's a few dirty dishes in the life of a loving marriage?

Now, what the heck is the classification of this post? Discerning, not discerning, or embarrassing to certain groups of people?

Lydia's Corner: Judges 19:1-20:48 John 3:22-4:3 Psalm 104:24-35 Proverbs 14:22-24
 

Comments

Doug Wilson on Doing The Dishes and Discernment Blogs — 404 Comments

  1. I am speechless. I hope to recover enough to answer your request as to whether this is discernment but all I can think of now is this – is this what Jesus died for? For men to instruct women on how to serve them? I think I am going to be sick!!

  2. Yet again, “Me Man! Me Want Fill-in-the-Blank! You Woman! YOU! SHUT! UP!”

    Woman as Cooker, Cleaner, Breeder, and F-toy.

    All Prepared, Prequalified, and Predestined by God, of course.

  3. Here is the T-1000’s reaction to Wilson’s twaddle:

    “…Hasta La Vista… Baby…”

  4. Oy! Reminds me of Mark Driscoll saying this:

    “Proverbs 19:13 further stresses the correlation between the type of mother you choose for your children and the kind of children you will have, saying, “A foolish son is ruin to his father, and a wife’s quarreling is a continual dripping of rain.” These two miseries simply go together. If a wife is a nag who disrespects her husband by chirping at him all the time, then the children in that home will follow her example and become fools who ruin their lives by similarly disobeying and dishonoring their dad. Wicked women not only fail to restrain their tongues in front of their children, but often intentionally attack their husbands in an effort to get their children’s allegiance, undermine the authority of their father, and bring anarchy to the home. Proverbs rightly calls this rottenness in the bones…. Whose responsibility is it? Ultimately, it is men who are responsible because they chose their wives, they let them continue in sin, and they let them destroy their children.”

    As quoted from my blog post here:
    http://watchtheshepherd.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-im-not-fan-of-mark-driscoll-real.html

  5. Eagle- After these last couple of posts I need comic relief. I’m going after those naked gun movies.

  6. Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but, does anyone not find it odd that some Calvinists complain about certain “discernment blogs,” but fail to complain about the Calvinist discernment blog Apprising Ministries ? Why is that? Why do their discernment blogs get a free pass? I’m just sayin’ . . .

    The disturbing sentiments of this post by Doug Wilson have been articulated by the likes of John Piper et al. in that group. Seriously, my heart breaks for the women caught up in such a context. God help us.

  7. I discern that I would be unequally yoked if I chose a man who believed that this is how a marriage should look.

  8. “Suppose for a moment that he really wants to serve God in their marriage, and she appears to be distinctly unenthusiastic about changing. What course should a man pursue? First, the husband in his capacity as a private person should confess to God his own individual sins as an individual which have contributed to the situation. For the typical husband, such sins will be numerous, and may even include the initial decision to marry her.”

  9. @ Virginia Knowles:
    Wow. I knew of a man who turned his daughters against their mother when he and she weren’t getting along (when she wouldn’t bow to his every Southern Baptist demand). Perhaps, then, turning Mark Driscoll’s words on himself, “Proverbs rightly calls this rottenness in the bones. . . . Whose responsibility is it? Ultimately, it is [the women] who are responsible because they chose their husbands, they let them continue in sin, and they let them destroy their children.” Ugh.

  10. Notice how all of these people that are the subject of criticism by discernment blogs those who give a damn do the following:

    1) Characterize themselves as victims of persecution;
    2) Claim the criticisms of them are gossip, lies, slander, etc.; and
    3) NEVER provide any information that would actually disprove the criticism

    In short, they believe they shouldn’t have to defend any of their actions or opinions much less actually engage in any meaningful discussion of them. People are just supposed to accept what they say as truth without question. Well, you can fool some of the people some of the time….

  11. Sergius Martin-George wrote:

    “For the typical husband, such sins will be numerous, and may even include the initial decision to marry her.”

    Wait…but what about courtship? Wilson wrote at least one book about how to do it. So despite heavy-handed courtship, a Christian couple could have sinned by getting married because the wife doesn’t keep the house spotless? He might as well tell men to have concubines that used to be maids. Then they can have someone to order around and treat like a sex slave.

  12. Bridget wrote:

    I discern that I would be unequally yoked if I chose a man who believed that this is how a marriage should look.

    I discern that if the survival of the species depended on me marrying someone like Wilson, I would say, “So long, humanity!”

  13. All sorts of obscene and unsavory words ventured to the tip of my tongue as I read through the “steps” a hubby must take if the wife doesn’t do the dishes. Need to collect myself…ok…I think I’m good…

    I have been trying to figure out what “discernment” blogs are myself. And this is what I’ve come up with.

    •an accurate description of discernment blogs and watchblogs – In my estimaation, a discernmnet blog or “watchblog” is one that seeks to point out truth and error in an effort to warn its readers about bad or dangerous theology.
    •which are good or which are bad – It depends on who you ask. You can google well-known pastor, speaker, author, theologian, and you will find a “watchblog” out there that is convinced they are the spawn of the devil. All of them convinced that their flavor of doctrine accurately and perfectly reflects true doctrine and if the accused pastor strays on even one point, they are heretics leading countless innocents into the very pits of hell.
    •if bias figures into this – I believe that there is a bias. We all come to the theological exercise with our own set of experiences and presuppositions. Bias is inevitable. The best writers know this and write with that reality in their conciousness at all times.
    •and anything else that you think might be helpful?

    I don’t know if any of this was helpful…but I had to get it off my chest… 😉

  14. Eagle wrote:

    This reminds me of so much of Mormon History. Consider….

    I wish they would hurry up and publicly promote polygamy so people would finally wake up and see how crazy they are.

  15. Here is Jr.’s definition of discernment blog-

    “We read an attack site (discernment blog, as they like to call themselves) . . . ” RC Sproul, Jr.

    Dee and Deb — do you like to call TWW a “discernment blog” or do you consider TWW an “attack site?”

    “There is someone wrong on the Internet. It’s probably you. Log off, hug your kids, kiss your wife, and go get some of His rest. The world will not only be there when you get back, it will have been made better.” RC Sproul, Jr.

    I wonder if Sproul, Jr. ever takes his own advice.

  16. Sergius Martin-George wrote:
    As long as it doesn’t lead to an egalitarian cleaning party.

    Yeah, we can’t expect men to do their own laundry or dishes. It might make them impotent or something.

  17. This kind of “discernment” on the part of Doug Wilson is classic patriocentricity as it is played out in real life.. I have been kicked off of a “godly womanhood” forum for having the nerve to share my own story of my wonderful husband who sees helping with household chores and caring for children as part of our teamwork through the years. When our children were small he always took them to the park before dinner so I could have a much needed break. We washed dishes and cleaned the kitchen together and he read to the children and put them to bed. Today my sons do the same with their wives and children. I have heard the testimonies of Wilson Boy wives and it looks nothing like teamwork or even sacrificial love. Rather, one young man informed me he would NEVER submit to his wife or children, telling me she was the one required to do what he told her to do, which included having a baby every year.

    I remember another time when I was behind a small boy in line at a potluck and his dad was in front of him. The boy spilled his bowl of soup on my foot and his dad turned around and glared at him. He then scolded him and did not help the crying boy or clean up the sou, even as he saw it spilled all over me. He continued through the line enjoying his meal while I comforted the child who felt humiliated and embarrassed. We were merely a woman and a child so of course it was left up to us to do this alone.I was my role as a woman and of course children have no feelings to consider in their economy!

    I also know of a poor older woman from one of these Wilson following families who is belittled and talked down to by her husband in front of others, having been repeatedly warned that she has “never been a faithful wife.”

    These are but a tiny sampling if stories from the Wilson follower pages. The man makes me sick. And he is just about the worst example of Christian discernment I can think if. The blind is leading the blind and they will all end up in the ditch!

  18. Eagle, some of these folks are already practicing polygamy. I heard from a homeschooling support group leader a while back who was trying to figure out how to prevent the polygamist homeschoolers from participating in their family activities. They wanted to recruit some of the stay at home daughters as second wives. The real kicker is that when she expressed her concerns to other leaders, she heard from several who had no problem with it. They were all the Phillips/ Wilson patrio types who are trying to pattern their lives after the NT patriarchs so why not?

  19. HoppyTheToad wrote:

    Bridget wrote:
    I discern that I would be unequally yoked if I chose a man who believed that this is how a marriage should look.

    I discern that if the survival of the species depended on me marrying someone like Wilson, I would say, “So long, humanity!”

    I discern that Doug Wilson encouraged a convicted child molester to pursue and eventually marry a sheltered young woman in his cult, I mean church … which makes him — literally — the. last. person. anyone should take marital advice from.

  20. Ugh! My son didn’t leave his wife’s side during the entire labor process. He cut the umbilican cord. They both work outside the home; both grocery shop together; both cook and both do dishes. Both clean the house each Saturday and both decide on weekend entertainment.

    She has thanked me more than once for raising such a sweet, sensitive, caring son and I’ve thanked her for loving him!

  21. Needlesstoday….that’s umbilical… LOL

    They do everything together. There are no male and female jobs in their home.

  22. I think the patriarch types would all change their tune in about 3 days…….if these women just bolted en masse from their homes for a weekend, leaving the husband to do all the childcare, all the teaching, all the cleaning, and running the bunch to Aldi in the Chevy Sururban, and then doing the dishes before bed…it would all change. These turkeys have no idea of the work it takes to run a home, particularly with homeschooling and a large number of kids. For crying out loud, keep your mouth shut, help her out, and if she is really overwhelmed get her a housekeeper one day per week. And while you are at it, keep it in your pants for a while to give her a break between babies. Nuff said!

  23. I witnessed a Gothard family at a church potluck where the child spilled their food on the floor and the “male leader, the umbrella of protection” stood and called his wife’s name out loud over and over, so she would come and clean the mess up so he could eat. Nobody bothered to help him, I don’t know where his wife was, because we all knew what a fool he was. We finally had to ask the family to either leave Gothard or leave the church because they were causing so much trouble in the church. I tell young women who ask about how to be submissive to their husband that I follow the two greatest commandments and so does my husband. We have never talked or needed to address “submission in our marriage” – we have been married almost 30 years. Love the Lord and love your neighbor as yourself – who you are married to is your “neighbor”. My husband and I are a team. I really don’t understand why people even acknowledge those like Wilson, Piper, Machaney,Gothard etc…they have done far more damage than good.

  24. 1. That Wilson step-by-step guide infantilizes the wife big time. It’s almost exactly the same as many child-training procedures. And all these guys claim to not infantilize women. (Granted, Wilson is an extreme example.)

    2. Pyro is not a discernment blog? That’s funny. All the anti-Emergent discernment blogs I was reading back in ’07/’08 (including Apprising) linked to it as one. Also I think it’s kinda hilarious that they think Apprising is okay but Ken Silva is now, thankfully, beginning to pick on John Piper (with good reason). My guess is Apprising will not stay “approved” for long.

  25. @ thatmom:

    It’s seriously just blowing my mind that polygamy would seriously be a problem. Though I suppose it shouldn’t since it is an actual Old Testament patriarchal practice and they are, like, patriarchs and stuff…

  26. ” A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.” My pastor-father believed this s**t. In the conservative wing of Christian Reformed-om and a Gothardite, back in the 70s. He also said that I was “made for suffering”, a nice little extension of the whole stupid meme, to seal the deal on everlasting abuse.

    These people have no clue what “discernment” is. How could they? They have three problems: sickness, stupidity, and hate.

    IMO, discernment means smelling BS a mile away, having enough of a brain to correctly analyze it, and a loving heart willing to work against its destructive effects.

    I’d not heard of Pyromaniacs so today I read some of their posts. They can’t smell BS when they eat it, and they have only enough heart to “discern” ideas that don’t cohere to their tiny little theology. And since they’ve tied their (formerly decent) brain capacity to proving the internal perfection of a book written thousands of years ago, rather than to the God who made the universe as well as that book, the only value in their site is their wit, which is mean.

    All these people pontificate smugly about half of humanity’s second-class status and then get sniffy when some poor shleppette rides into their comment section with anger. That pomposity also drives their contempt for the “common” “uneducated” “gossipy” “foolish” bloggers who criticize their actions/words. There is no difference between them and the “Christians” before, during, and after the civil war. Sick, stupid, hateful.

    Especially Doug Wilson. “When we quarrel with the way the world is, we find that the world has ways of getting back at us. In other words, however we try, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party.” So Wilson goes on about how women were created for subservience even though “the world” sees it differently, but when he wants to, he makes that world inevitable and right. On the same issue! How stupid is that?!

    I am sure God made these people beautifully. I don’t know what awful thing happened to them on the way to the Colosseum but it turned them into monstrosities of their former selves. I will be delighted when God does whatever He/She does to reduce them back to their original size/shape. I wish it would happen tonight!

    Sorry for the length. And the rant. Bah.

  27. @ Liz:

    “I witnessed a Gothard family at a church potluck where the child spilled their food on the floor and the “male leader, the umbrella of protection” stood and called his wife’s name out loud over and over, so she would come and clean the mess up so he could eat.”

    This what this reminds me of:

    http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/32366-lion-feeding-frenzy-lion-feeding-hierarchy-video.htm

    “Alpha” males eat first, then “beta” males, then females and children. They could at least try to rise above this.

  28. Stepping around the nicompoopish assertions on how Conan the Barbarian is empirical science, and on the proper way a young married man should teach his concubine to be a domestic servant, I’ll take the liberty of addressing the question: i.e. what is an attack blog, discernment blog, or whatever.

    There exist, certainly, blogs that purport to expose deception, false teaching or wrong doctrine generally. They’re generally called something like everyonesdeceivedapartfromme.net; some of them are set up to attack particular ministries or individuals. I have little time for them, to be honest. 99 times out of 10 they simply expose the theological prejudices of the bloggers, who are no more Christ-like, thoughtful or qualified than Park Fiscal or Jerry Global. If anything, they fit the description “haters” very well.

    Then there are blogs that call attention to wrong behaviour, generally aimed at professional clergymen who are prominent and influential enough that you’ve heard of them. This can sometimes take the form of fault-finding after the manner of the teachers of the law, who watched Jesus to find a basis for accusing him. On the other hand, even that should be counted a blessing to these famous ministers. They generally have generous salaries, lucrative and gratifying careers, and hordes of people patting them on the back and telling them what great men of God they are; their brand strength often means that in their home churches or seminaries they have little real accountability. And in some cases they are downright corrupt.

    There are loads of others, but it’s bedtime over here.

  29. And by sick, I mean ethically ill. Sometimes also mentally, narcissism being the most likely.

    And by stupid, I mean they haven’t learned to think/process, to be coherent, or to use creativity. Almost anyone can learn to think, if desired, but they don’t want to learn, they perceive that they know it all already and therefore they have made themselves stupid.

    And by hate, I mean contempt, derision, disgust for others.

    Any of these things will produce hopeless bias. In order to minimize normal human bias, a person needs to be able to walk in another’s shoes, and to love that which is different from one’s self as well as that which is similar. One needs to be able to see from a little distance outside of one’s self, so that the biggest picture can be obtained. Bias can’t be totally overcome, of course, and that’s where humility kicks in.

  30. Okay. I haven’t read the second half of the the post or any of the comments, but wanted to post this while it’s still in my head…..

    What constitutes a discernment blog…. I think any blog that opines on any topic concerning human beings (including those inside the church bubble) is a discernment blog. To opine is to discern. Whether the discenment is good or not is another topic. 😉

    As to how to tell th difference between the good ones an the bad ones, well….that is going to entirely depend on the reader exercising their, *ahem*, discernment. Unless, of course, you’re comfortable allowing someone else to exercise their discernment for you and save you the development…I mean trouble.

    Watch blogs are a little different animal. They target (usually) a specific segment of social issues and ‘keep a watch’ on problems. Again, telling the good from my the bad requires that troublesome personal discernment….

  31. Hester wrote:

    @ thatmom:
    It’s seriously just blowing my mind that polygamy would seriously be a problem. Though I suppose it shouldn’t since it is an actual Old Testament patriarchal practice and they are, like, patriarchs and stuff…

    Remember harem-system herd animals. The Alpha Male takes ALL the females he can for his harem, to the point of even driving off the Beta-to-Omega males, thus maximizing his DNA transmission. Just DNA and Darwinist reproductive success in action. And the more females in your harem, the greater your reproductive success and status.

  32. Wow. He comes off as the theological version of those internet trolls who think responding to a woman’s comments with “Make me a sandwich” is the pinnacle of wit.

  33. justabeliever wrote:

    I think the patriarch types would all change their tune in about 3 days…….if these women just bolted en masse from their homes for a weekend, leaving the husband to do all the childcare, all the teaching, all the cleaning, and running the bunch to Aldi in the Chevy Sururban, and then doing the dishes before bed…it would all change.

    LYSISTRATA?

  34. thatmom wrote:

    I have heard the testimonies of Wilson Boy wives and it looks nothing like teamwork or even sacrificial love. Rather, one young man informed me he would NEVER submit to his wife or children, telling me she was the one required to do what he told her to do, which included having a baby every year.

    And does he beat her if she ever gets Uppity?

    “WOMAN! DO AS *I* SAY OR I BEAT YOU!”

  35. HoppyTheToad wrote:

    Yeah, we can’t expect men to do their own laundry or dishes. It might make them impotent or something.

    I’ve been doing my own laundry and dishes for 40 years — what are they bitching about?

  36. Eagle wrote:

    I wonder if Doug Wilson has a Confederate Flag and a statue of Jefferson Davis in his church? Does anyone know? He could start a plantation in Idaho as well.

    I’d like to see him try to acquire some Animate Property for his Peculiar Institution…

  37. Dee, I think we’ve been in each other’s heads about “discernment” blogging. I found the same websites and couldn’t resist more discernment snark today in my post. The hypocrisy of these people! And I thought we were supposed to be discerning. Frankly, I don’t care what kind of blogger they want to call me.

    I find my stomach in knots when I read some of this garbage. They have everything all planned out for a wife’s “bad behavior”, yet who is a wife to turn to when a husband “misbehaves”? Oh right, she can’t tell anyone because that would be gossip. She just needs to submit and pray that God would change his heart. She might be called to a life of suffering. Bless her godly submissive heart.

  38. I was sick for a year … my husband found out almost how much work I did. I say almost, because when I finally got back on my feet there were some things that were totally neglected. Never-the-less, he learned a lot, did a lot, appreciated me more than ever, and we were a much better team after that.

  39. Hester, blogged a bit about the polygamy stuff a while back. Documentation is tricky. There are some websites promoting “Christian polygamy” and some online forums across the country. I not convinced it is more widespread than we imagine given their militant fecundity teachings.

  40. Dee, when you said you spew your coffee after reading Doug Wilson’s advice, I thought you were being cute. Then I began reading and actually spewed my coffee! I’ll take your warning more seriously next time. 😉

    Doug Wilson wrote: “When a wife neglects her duties, the guilt of the sin is hers. The responsibility for her negligence is her husband’s.”

    Why do we do this to men? I suspect many men would really begin to shine in their lives if we didn’t put so much unneeded pressure on them. My husband cannot possibly be responsible to make me live as he’d like me to live. He can, however, be responsible for loving me as he loves himself.

  41. thatmom wrote:

    This kind of “discernment” on the part of Doug Wilson is classic patriocentricity as it is played out in real life.. I have been kicked off of a “godly womanhood” forum for having the nerve to share my own story of my wonderful husband who sees helping with household chores and caring for children as part of our teamwork through the years.

    Good for you, That Mom! I’ve enjoyed your blog, as well. 🙂

  42. Hester wrote:

    Addendum @ thatmom:
    Please tell me you’re going to document and publicize this polygamy thing in the near future.

    Polygamy? Are you serious? Ugh … I know a couple women who secretly confide in me that they are afraid their husband/pastor is going to take another wife. I really thought they were just too far into a legalistic sub-culture to be thinking clearly. Looks like something really is up and they are picking it up from their husbands. Nooooooooooooo!

    But as long as there is no voice of dissent allowed (no “gossip” -their definition; no “slander” – their definition; no public push backs, no “discernment blogs” that are in opposition to their way of thinking ….. just silence, then they can keep moving in the direction they want to without anyone being able to wake them up.

  43. @ thatmom:

    “I not convinced it is more widespread than we imagine given their militant fecundity teachings.”

    Well, if it’s just a numbers game then it does make sense. Had 8 kids with wife #1 but wanted a minimum of 13, so how are you going to make up for those “missing” 5 children? Also could be a convenient “placement program” for all those unmarried 30-something girls, since already married patriarchs have already passed muster per those 100+ courtship questions.

    And what’s even scarier is that the above actually makes good sense within their thought system.

  44. @ Katie:

    “I know a couple women who secretly confide in me that they are afraid their husband/pastor is going to take another wife.”

    ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

  45. Hester wrote:

    @ Katie:
    “I know a couple women who secretly confide in me that they are afraid their husband/pastor is going to take another wife.”
    ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

    Yeppers … IFB and SBC pastors.

  46. Frankly, I’m all for the concubine thing. I could use some help around here … oh, but then there’s that other part I’m not fond of.

  47. @ scooters mom:

    What scooter’s mom said. Love your wife and get her a dishwasher for heaven’s sake.

    Comic relief…

    I am dying laughing…talk about rotflol, Dee. Picture the father as the church elder, and the little girl as the “rebellious dish flinging not gonna do them dirty old rotten dishes” wife. The little girl in this video better not end up in a Wilsonian church or she and the elders have a long row to hoe. I forsee many an elder meeting in this one’s future. Besides, I liked her excuse for not helping with the dishes…they’re tooooo heavyyyyy. lol oh…I am so easily entertained.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ycoXiEDBZk

  48. Obviously a (bad) discernment blog is anything that criticises The Untouchables (i.e. anybody Challies likes).

  49. Oh my gosh. Well go ahead and count my family as heretics. My dad has been the chief housecleaner for years because he simply obsesses about it more. And he washes the dishes and does laundry. Not because he really wants to but my mom has fibromyalgia. The only gender issue we learned growing up was the fact that boys and girls have different private parts.

    I can clearly see the influence of Gothard spreading in my region. Only we call them Duggarites since their homeschooling conference is not too far away. Everybody shudders when an entire Duggarite family is seen in public. Its easier if its just the mom and kids.

  50. @ lilyrosemary:

    gag…no kidding…but~

    (sarsasm) You forget Doug cured Sitler. Yep…a mere 6 meetings with him while he was in jail and Doug felt he had truly repented. Even wrote the judge for leniency.

  51. Diane wrote:

    @ lilyrosemary:
    gag…no kidding…but~
    (sarsasm) You forget Doug cured Sitler. Yep…a mere 6 meetings with him while he was in jail and Doug felt he had truly repented. Even wrote the judge for leniency.

    Yes, sexual predators get leniency, but wives who don’t do the dishes fast enough or good enough or submissively enough need to be sternly reprimanded.

    I am guessing the difference is that Sitler flattered Wilson’s ego, whereas uppity women threaten his ego. Letting your ego be your sole moral compass does tend to lead to some dark (and stupid) places.

  52. Oohhh, the characteristic splitting of split hairs, in which neo-puritan calvinistas are so practised.
    Bad bloggers who think. Bad women bloggers who think.

  53. thatmom wrote:

    Hester, blogged a bit about the polygamy stuff a while back. Documentation is tricky. There are some websites promoting “Christian polygamy” and some online forums across the country. I not convinced it is more widespread than we imagine given their militant fecundity teachings.

    This all reminds me of *Christian* domestic *discipline*, likely more widespread than we imagine.

  54. Dave, someone recently sent me photos from a wedding shower of a fundamentalist couple. The man is considerably older than the young woman and he is opening a gift to him..,,, it was a large wooden paddle and the look of delight on his face was horrifying!

  55. Hester wrote:

    That Wilson step-by-step guide infantilizes the wife big time. It’s almost exactly the same as many child-training procedures. And all these guys claim to not infantilize women. (Granted, Wilson is an extreme example.)

    Hester, I was involved with comp doctrine for quite a few years because quite frankly it was a HUGE money maker for the mega industrial complex. I was not raised in it so it was not really something that I was indoctrinated in. And it was not patriarchy but i saw it inching closer and closer as time went on. This was about the late 90’s when I decided to start having some fun with it after seeing couple after comp couple be totally different backstage than they taught on stage. I started to see it was basically an income for them in speakign gigs, books, literature (the ever present personality assessments), etc.

    So I started planting seeds with the staff pastors. I would very nicely say things like, ” I can understand why some men would be intimidated by an intellectual woman” or “It must be a relief for men who work out in the real world not to have to come home and deal with a challenging woman”. IT NEVER FAILED. The next week, they would speak to this…..a submissive wife is still an intellectual and challenging woman….blah blah blah.

    See, their egos cannot stand the fact that anyone would think they married an ignorant door mat because they could not handle the intellectual stimulation of the wife. But that is exactly where this stuff is going. Emerson Eggerich tried to soften this and became very popular with the ridiculous “Love and REspect. (as if women don’t really care about being respected only men do)

    So, let us just say Doug Wilson and his new BFF’s in the Gospel Coalition circles cannot handle thinking independent women. They need a daughter/wife as they are daddy/husband. It is disgusting.

  56. Eagle wrote:

    I wonder if Doug Wilson has a Confederate Flag and a statue of Jefferson Davis in his church? Does anyone know? He could start a plantation in Idaho as well.

    Off topic, since Wilson isn’t involved (that I know of) and it won’t be a plantation, but some folks plan to break ground on a heavily-armed, fortified “planned community” not far from Moscow this summer. They’re probably OK. Probably just patriots. I’m probably just paranoid after living near Richard Butler and his Aryan Nations compound.

  57. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Good Morning, Nick! I think your assessment is spot on. I’m thinking CONTEXT is a really critical thing for discernment blogs to remember if they want to be helpful. For example, Sproul’s article linked by Dee really did say quite a few good things. His example of a schoolyard bully, a victim, and onlooking cowards is true, in the proper context. But 2 days ago, he made it clear he thinks blogger xxx is a victim and Dee and Deb are bullies (which makes us da cowards, of course). But blogger xxx is NOT a victim. Blogger xxx makes his living by writing a discernment blog, where he’s free to discern what he likes. Blogger xxx attracted criticism by suggesting everyone stick their heads in the sand regarding ministry yyy. And by claiming objectivity when he’s an obvious fan of and makes money off ministry yyy. Then Wednesday, he didn’t even clarity for his readers what was the CONTEXT of his remarks. Many readers were just confused. Back to Sproul’s article. He did say some good things about taking care of responsibilities at home rather than spending too much time on blogs. (I noticed he had time to read and respond to blogger xxx’s attack blog right away– comments were closed by the time I could read it!) Anyway, I gotta go– those dishes won’t wash themselves!

  58. Dave A A wrote:

    They’re probably OK. Probably just patriots. I’m probably just paranoid after living near Richard Butler and his Aryan Nations compound.

    What’s not to be afraid of? They want the whole enchilada back the way it was. Divine right of potentates, slavery, horrific forms of torture and execution, they want it all. You know, a righteous society, based on the Word of God.

  59. This is ridiculous! I don’t do the dishes because my husband declared it to be one of my chores, I do it for the chocolate he gives me every time I do them!

    JK JK JK… But seriously, being treated like a child much? Why NOT just give your wife a chore chart with promises of chocolate at the end when she earns enough stickers?

    This all makes me sick, and it makes me sad to know how many of my friends are in this environment/under this teaching.

  60. A slave’s place is on the plantation. A woman’s place is in front of the kitchen sink.
    And Doug Wilson’s place is up his own a$$.

  61. @ Katie:And I thought that I had heard it all. Now I need to look into this polygamy stuff. And Deb was worried that we wouldn’t have enough to write about.

  62. Dee,
    Mrs. Muff will attest to the fact that I am a dish-doer extraordinaire and first class kitchen cleaner-upper. I loath new fangled dishwashers though and prefer to wash up & dry the old fashioned way. By the way, I think Dawn blue-concentrate works the best and makes the best suds.

  63. I’m surprised Wilson hasn’t started warning his flock and his fans about the inherent dangers of “The International Jew” yet.

  64. @ justabeliever:

    Justabeliever, I did see that happen a few times on those “Swap Wife” shows.

    There were a few episodes with sexist, selfish husbands who thought it was wimmins’ work to raise the kids, do the dishes, etc. They would get home from work, crack open a beer, flip on the tube, and not lift a finger to help their wives at all.

    When the wives were swapped out, and the new wife made the husband clean, cook, baby sit etc, most of these guys would buckle from exhaustion within hours to a day or two, depending on the guy.

    At the show’s end, when both couples meet to discuss things, the formerly sexist, selfish husbands would always admit they never realized how tiring it was to do the housework / kid raising stuff with no help.

    Some of them teared up, cried, and said they don’t take their wives for granted any more.

    When my mom got real sick, my dad and I helped care for her, including doing all housework, and we had to help her with her personal hygiene.

    She was too weak, and had fallen and sustained injuries at one point, leaving her incapable of stereotypical 1950s house wife duties, in the months before she died.

    My dad and I helped her with bathroom tasks, (changing adult diapers, cleaning / emptying her potty chair – at times she was too weak to make it to regular bathroom).

    My dad can be a gruff guy, he and I have a bit of a rocky relationship, but not once did my father ever complain at all -not in private, to my mom, to me or any one -about doing any of this work, not even the “nurse maid” stuff.

    My dad stepped up and did what needed to be done (I helped out too) because my Mom could not care for herself let alone housework.

    I don’t think the Doug Wilsons of the world really understand love or what marriage is or how it should be.

    When your wife is dead, you’re going to want her back, and you’re not going to care how often she did the dishes.

  65. Sorry, haven’t had time to read the comments, but

    1) How is Doug Wilson’s explanation of making a wife do something different from emotional abuse? It’s funny/ridiculous in the abstract, but imagine in reali life bringing the (all male) eldership around to inspect his wife’s housekeeping? Humiliating and degrading are words that come to my mind. Also, some women are very bad housekeepers but are brilliantly talented in other spheres, and, if allowed to exercise those talents would be able to pay for professional housekeeping. But I guess that would be rebellion (I suspect anything that empowers a woman is rebellion)

    2) there seems to be some sort of dissonance between the meanings of the word discernment as a noun (Tim Challies is an expert on ‘discernment’. He wrote the book) and when used as an adjective (‘discernment’ blogs are terrible. They’re all written by women who want to destroy our revered leaders) Hence the cognitive leapfrog going on .. e.g. Pyro have true ‘discernment’ so they are not a ‘discernment’ blog. And yes, it does my head in, but maybe because I’m not practiced in some of their mental gymnastics

    PS Dee, how on earth do you read this stuff and clean up at the same time? I think this confirms how super-human Dee and Deb must really be .. but if I notice am I in danger of discernment?

  66. Eagle wrote:

    Dee/Deb make sure you’re sitting down and not eating or swallowing anything. None of us want you guys to choke when you read this…
    http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/legalism-gender-roles-exhibit-c-piper-commentary

    I just got through reading that… was having frustrations with disqus not loading comments properly/in order, so was temporarily distracted from the pain in my brain from reading Piper’s nonsense… Honestly, with my first reading of that Piper quote, my momentary assumption was that it was satire. I didn’t think it was actually something that Piper had actually said, and I am NO Piper fan (so can’t blame rose-coloured glasses). But it wasn’t satire!

    from the post:

    Regarding a woman who has written a biblical commentary, he explains:

    “She’s not looking at me, and directing me…as woman. There is this interposition of this phenomenon called ‘book’ that puts her out of my sight and, in a sense, takes away the dimension of her female personhood, whereas if she were standing right in front of me and teaching me as my shepherd…I couldn’t make that separation”

    ….

    As if there wasn’t enough crazy to be found in this particular blog post care of Doug Wilson, the Wife (Dishwasher?) Whisperer.

  67. Hester wrote:

    1. That Wilson step-by-step guide infantilizes the wife big time. It’s almost exactly the same as many child-training procedures. And all these guys claim to not infantilize women. (Granted, Wilson is an extreme example.)

    I agree. The complementarian gender role and patriarchal teachings is codependency (“fear of man”) under other labels.

    The Bible does not support codependency in either males or females, it actually warns against it.

  68. Anon 1 wrote:

    Emerson Eggerich tried to soften this and became very popular with the ridiculous “Love and REspect. (as if women don’t really care about being respected only men do)

    Thank you.

    I’ve been hearing this a lot on Christian television shows the past ten years, and I see it on some Christian blogs.

    Supposedly, women only want to be loved and don’t give a fig about being respect, but with men, it’s vice versa.

    It sounds like bunk to me, much like the trope in Christian and secular environments about “men are visually oriented” (i.e., only men desire physically attractive mates, women, can or should or usually, only desire unattractive men as partners, as long as those partners have some other trait to compensate).

    I’ve been dis-respected before (by males and females, in friendships, on jobs, on the internet), and I dislike it quite a bit. I don’t think wanting to be respected is a male-only trait.

  69. @ Searching:

    I just read the RHE post about Piper.

    I’m struck by how often Piper and many of these gender comp guys, who claim the Bible is their utmost authority, base some of their arguments on their feelings, and not on what the Bible says.

    Piper has said every so often in discussing or writing about gender that a woman doing “X” only becomes wrong when it makes him personally, or whatever male, “feel” bad or not in authority. (RHE has some of those quotes on her blog page.)

    I guess Piper doesn’t realize that other people are not responsible for his feelings.

    (Believing that they are responsible, or believing that you are responsible for theirs is another sign of codependency, btw.)

    Piper could claim that me, a woman, inhaling oxygen makes him feel less manly or authoritative, so I should what, go drown myself (deprive myself of oxygen) to satisfy him, so his male ego doesn’t feel threatened? I have no control over how my actions or words may impact him or not. To ascribe that much power to me is ridculous.

    I think Piper and a lot of male gender comps have unhealthy views towards women and are obsessed with all things gender. I also suspect they are afraid of women.

  70. I didn’t say this earlier, but nobody else seems to have brought it up in the comments. Wilson’s list of ‘bad things’ a disobedient wife does is ridiculous, but one of them is especially disturbing – his comment about ‘refusing sexual advances’. If we apply the same sort of steps as he uses in his dishwashing example, he’s at most two steps away from advocating rape.

  71. Pam wrote:

    Wilson’s list of ‘bad things’ a disobedient wife does is ridiculous, but one of them is especially disturbing – his comment about ‘refusing sexual advances’.

    I caught that too. I was thinking of maybe returning here tomorrow or in a few days to comment more, but I did notice that.

    Also the one about “weight.”

    Apparently Wilson thinks a husband can or should nag or chastise his wife to get thin. Nobody has ever been nagged, shamed, or harassed into losing weight, not in marriages or families. The person has to want to lose weight him- or her- self.

    I sure hope Wilson (if he’s going to be fair) also has a similar list for wives, where he tells them, “this is how you handle an overweight husband who won’t slim down, here’s what you do with a husband who won’t help clean house…”

    My thoughts on the overall dish washing bit of his post:

    If a man is that disturbed by dirty dishes in the sink – he should clean them himself.

    I also thought the part about him saying church elders should be called in was totally ridiculous.

    It’s interesting how lots of these gender comp pastors think it’s okay for their church to stick their nose into someone’s sink of dirty dishes, but if a wife comes to them saying, “my husband beats me,” they do little to nothing about it; they don’t want to get involved with that.

  72. dee wrote:

    @ Katie:And I thought that I had heard it all. Now I need to look into this polygamy stuff. And Deb was worried that we wouldn’t have enough to write about.

    I really hope I’m wrong, Dee. That’s just a whole new level.

  73. There are people who do their dishes after every meal? Interesting concept really… (pondering this).

    nahh…

    I read this to my 18 yo dd who quipped, “Mom, if those elders visited you, you’d make them do the dishes, and then probably mop the floor and vaccuum while they were at it.”
    She’s an astute young lady.

    Seriously, I watched my sweet older father take care of my mother, who had a debilitating disease for years, never complaining, just sweetly serving her when she could no longer care for herself, and at the end, didn’t even recognize him.

    People like Dough Wilson and his ilk are reprehensible.

  74. Eagle wrote:

    Dee/Deb did you hear the latest from Piper? Scot McKnight pointed this out and Rachel Held Evans is talking about it today.
    Dee/Deb make sure you’re sitting down and not eating or swallowing anything. None of us want you guys to choke when you read this…
    http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/legalism-gender-roles-exhibit-c-piper-commentary

    Eagle, the comments over there are hysterical and reminded me of something my mom told me back in the early 90’s when comp doctrine was becoming the “new” thing. She would say how strange that it seems to make grown men like little boys. She thought it devalued men as being childish. The comments over there caught on to this. I cracked up at this one:

    you know, the more I encounter this “absurd legalism”, the more I wonder if Piperesque complementarianism is mostly about coddling extremely fragile men and treating them similarly to how we treat young boys (“Who’s a big strong man? You are!”). it’s like it’s less about “men leading” and “women not leading” and more about women running backwards or pretending to trip so that men can feel like they are the fastest runners and always win the race! What a sad and silly way to understand life and relationships!

    So true, so true. It is what my mom was talking about!

  75. Eagle,

    So we can look at Wilson and say, Now who’s a big strong man now! You are! (patting his big belly)

    We can look at Piper and say, My goodness, you are growing and will soon be a big strong man! (musing his hair)

    Sorry, could not resist. They are so insecure, though. they need to be reminded and we can do that for them to give them confidence. hee hee

    I think they will like that, don’t you? (wink)

  76. @ Pam:
    I was just thinking about that one. Similar to the TGC 50 shades discussion. Back then I questioned whether he thought it wrong for the wife to make any advances at all. He said something about her submission to his authority OVER her being the main thing in sexual matters, but the husband still had to be nice about it. However he put it sounded to me like he was advocating marital rape, and I said this. Unfortunately, Doug got distracted by Pam’s need of remedial ESL classes at that time. 🙂

  77. kindakrunchy wrote:

    Seriously, I watched my sweet older father take care of my mother, who had a debilitating disease for years, never complaining, just sweetly serving her when she could no longer care for herself, and at the end, didn’t even recognize him.

    I have often wondered about this. What if their wives became very ill for years? What would happen to women like Grace Driscoll who was no longer useful for sex? Doug Wilson’s wife? It is all about serving them and now they can’t. Chilling.

  78. Eagle wrote:

    Enjoy Naked Gun, they have some racey stuff but are quite good. How can you go wrong with Leslie Nielson at all? PERIOD! 😛

    …You haven’t seen the movies he did later in his career, have you? (Yes, he somehow managed to find films that even he couldn’t save.)

  79. @ Anon 1:

    One would hope he would do the right thing.

    I’ve heard tho that there are men out there that well…get a little tired of the first wife who is all worn out from having child after child refuse medical care. The first wife dies, so he marries a new, young wife that can handle all the kids. Much less messy than a divorce. These are the ones that wouldn’t be able to serve as elders if they had multiple wives.

  80. @ Anon 1:

    I wrote much the same thing in a post above.

    My dad and I had to care for my mom, and I helped with household chores, in the months before she died.

    My Mom could not bathe herself or use the restroom solo, let alone scrub dishes and do other tasks like that.

    My dad (and I) took care of my Mom, and my dad never once complained.

  81. Is the LT who posts here the same one that posts on RHE’s blog?

    I just saw a new post on her blog page about Piper and gender roles (here), and he (or she? – “LT”) claimed to be a gender comp and dressed down RHE for supposedly only using name calling in her argument against Piper.

    He/she said on the blog, “what about gender comps who are not threatened or afraid of strong women?”

    I refreshed that page and cannot find LT’s posts any longer. RHE’s blog layout has always been a little confusing for me.

    I don’t know how to link to comments there. I was trying to figure out how to link to LT’s comments when I refreshed the page and can’t find them anymore.

    I think LT at RHE blog needs to be more concerned that some gender comps are using their feelings to argue against women serving or speaking up, than with RHE calling Piper out on things like that.

    Piper should be told that his support for gender compism is weak in places; don’t fault RHE or people such as me for pointing it out.

    Piper doesn’t ground all his objections to women by pointing to biblical support, but to how women make some men “feel” (feel less manly, feel ashamed, whatever).

    I don’t know if RHE deleted LT’s post(s) or if they’re still there somewhere.

  82. “études dé discernment!?”

    “What constitutes a discernment blog…. I think any blog that opines on any topic concerning human beings (including those inside the church bubble) is a discernment blog. To opine is to discern. Whether the discenment is good or not is another topic. ” -Jeannette Altes

    “Watch blogs are a little different animal. They target (usually) a specific segment of social issues and ‘keep a watch’ on problems. Again, telling the good from my the bad requires that troublesome personal discernment…”Jeannette Altes

    @ Jeannette Altes

    •an accurate description of discernment blogs and watchblogs – In my estimaation, a discernmnet blog or “watchblog” is one that seeks to point out truth and error in an effort to warn its readers about bad or dangerous theology.
    -Just Sayin’ @ Just Sayin’

    HowDee,

    hmmm…

    The true gift of ‘discernment is’ not in a blog,  it is in a human mind, a hunan heart, and a in a human soul. 
    That is a gift that can only be silenced, if you let it. A blog is just a medium. As such, naturally. it is only as good the mind, heart, and soul behind it. Hence, if you were to say, add glory to God, your soirée , shall we say, would show eminent promise.

    huh?

    “The Piano Concerto for the Left Hand in D major was composed by Maurice Ravel between 1929 and 1930, concurrently with his Piano Concerto in G. It was commissioned by the Austrian pianist, Paul Wittgenstein, who lost his right arm during World War I.
    Wittgenstein gave the premiere with Robert Heger and the Vienna Symphony Orchestra on 5 January 1932. Before writing the concerto, Ravel enthusiastically studied the left-hand études of Camille Saint-Saëns. The first French pianist to perform the work was Jacques Février, chosen by the composer himself.” -WiliP

    Maurice Ravel composed pieces written for one hand. He met a ‘need’; it was a very striking one.

    What?

    The point here being that everyone does not have to wait to be an ‘arrived’  person to opine or discern, however imperfectly.

    If you are to be a watch person on the wall of Christ’s church, each have a sacred obligation, and trust.

    You know what they say, practice makes perfect!

    Ho!

    The stewardship that comes from God that is by faith, aims at a love that issues from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith. 

    Those who possess these things, have pocket’d pure gold! 

    The rainbow, is another story…

    Sopy

  83. Sopy,
    I think that’s important point. To the degree that each one has wisdom or insight, we are all called to be watchers of different things And you see that here, where different people have expertise or insight in different areas. F’r instance, I’m trained in theology and know a bit about the psychology of abuse, but I know zilch about money trails or legal matters (especially American ones which are a bit different to ours) That is why the nature of the conversation Dee and Deb allow here is so important. Not just because there is affirmation that we all need when the craziness gets to us, but also because, as a body, we all bring our different gifts and insights to the table and enlighten one another

  84. Dave A A wrote:

    @ Pam:
    I was just thinking about that one. Similar to the TGC 50 shades discussion. Back then I questioned whether he thought it wrong for the wife to make any advances at all. He said something about her submission to his authority OVER her being the main thing in sexual matters, but the husband still had to be nice about it. However he put it sounded to me like he was advocating marital rape, and I said this. Unfortunately, Doug got distracted by Pam’s need of remedial ESL classes at that time.

    Oh yes, I still need to get around to those ESL classes. Maybe after I finish my PhD.

  85. This is a little off topic as Doug Wilson hasn’t been sued…but if CJ or others end up doin’ some serious TIME….they won’t be around to run their households…or lead their families…the WIVES will have to do it…AND they also won’t have their little wifey there to meet their needs…if you catch my drift..how sad…

  86. @ Anon 1 & Eagle:

    I find Piper’s comments in that RHE article amusing because I know there’s been times when I could tell whether a book was written by a man or a woman (via intangible stuff that I cannot describe, not the name on the cover). And when I pretended that it was written by the other sex, it just felt weird and wrong on every level. So sometimes people’s “personhood” comes through a text loud and clear. Maybe Piper can’t sense these things.

  87. Spiritual echinoderms, having varying diets and expel food waste through their mouths, perhaps?

    What?

    …we are all called to be watchers ?

    …the nature of the conversation allow’d  here is so important?

    …positive affirmation?

    …bringing our different gifts and insights to the table and enlighten one another? 

    huh?

    …An environment where each is encouraged to have an opinion and to express it. Where fear of expression, simply does not enter into the equation. Where all are made to feel, they too have a contribution however small and seemly insignificant?

    hmmm…

    If you examine the present religious environment spawn’d for the most part from religious lunch milk, where the spiritual individual is fed intravenously, some weird religious concoction seemly designed to keep one compliant (as it were) and not encouraged to grow spiritually on one’s own and feed one self spiritual meat from the Word of God, the Bible. How can anyone prodigiously protruding from this gangus type of environment be ever so opion’d or discerning? 

    Go fish?

    ha!

    …suffering a proverbial spiritual malnutrition, half-blind, and starved, seen in certain quarters as mere pathetic worms.

    A parade of methodical progression or nefarious design, perhaps?

    Time to wake up and smell the spiritual pap, pushing the proverbial religious pap pushers aside?

    hmmm…

    could b.

    Thy word is a lamp unto my widdle feet, and a consistent light upon your path for me, Oh Lord!

    Sopy

  88. @ Daisy:
    And wanting to be loved is not a female only trait.

    I agree with you 100%, and it drives me nuts when I hear men talk about this subject because they have these sweeping generalizations about women that are just so ignorant- that women never want sex, that men are the only ones who struggle in this area, that men are the only ones who are visually stimulated, etc. You know, it’s very presumptuous to talk this way and we may be missing a huge dimension to the women in our lives with these assumptions.

    I struggle with this topic a lot because of how my ex treated me- and it is true that if a wife doesn’t do anything around the house at all, does not work out of the house, never wants sex, and doesn’t care about making herself attractive to her husband at all, that is very painful to the husband. He certainly does not feel loved. However, even at that point it would be wrong to bring in the elders to try and get her to get it together. In my case the church told me they wanted to send the older women if the church over to help her learn how to be a better wife, and I refused. I didn’t want a slave or an obedient doormat- I wanted my partner. Of course the church blamed me for trying to address her behavior via the mental health route (which ultimately did not help, but I still think it was the appropriate avenue).

    But along the way I learned one really key point: we should not do for others what they can do for themselves out of anything but love. Not fear and not obligation, but love. Convincing my ex to be a “better wife” by threatening her was not on my agenda.

    Christians need to move away from this idea that it is a spouse’s right or responsibility to change his or her marriage partner through submission/love (depending in gender). It doesn’t work that way. If a marriage partner consistently neglects the marriage and is not willing to take steps to change, threats aren’t going to make the situation any better.

    In the end, I stopped doing for her what she could do for herself (which was enabling her), and started doing for myself the things she said she would do but wouldn’t. Once I did this she lost control of the situation and she became more clearly emotionally abusive, and then I ended the marriage. But if course, for all of Wilson’s talk of how to fix broken marriages, divorce is never an option. You just have to keep trying to fix your partner.

  89. I’ve obviously hit my limit with this kind of utter ridciculousness that Wilson advocates & Piper creepily has feelings about becasue it’s just making me laugh. I’ve been reading over at RHE & one of her commenters – Kristen Rosser who has visited here & deserves many A*s for her writing, & I can’t stop laughing. These mean are ludicrous & the comments on their folly are hilarious…seriously the picture of these guys as labradors & people going ‘who’s a lovely strong boy then?’just hits the nail on the head. And so I laugh.

    Until I look out at the big wide world & see how much love & kindness it needs, & how much good could be done if these patriarchal idiots stopped talking & started doing. I don’t think many of them even know what servanthood is – they are so used to trying to get their women to serve them they have never actually done much of it themselves, or it’s once again that familiar tactic – evangelical redefinition of words where it mean the diametrical opposite of normal usage. Rant over. P.S. I often criticise myself for talking & not doing…I am a hypocrite too.

  90. Jeff S wrote:

    I agree with you 100%, and it drives me nuts when I hear men talk about this subject because they have these sweeping generalizations about women that are just so ignorant- that women never want sex, that men are the only ones who struggle in this area, that men are the only ones who are visually stimulated, etc. You know, it’s very presumptuous to talk this way and we may be missing a huge dimension to the women in our lives with these assumptions.

    Implying that the ladies never desire their men might not be so far from the truth in these circles!!! Who would want a guy that treated you like a child, demanded, conquered, etc.? Kinda makes the skin crawl.

  91. You won’t believe this…type in Christianpolygamy.com. Seriously. There’s a KJV Bible verse on the first page.

  92. Anon 1 wrote:

    it’s like it’s less about “men leading” and “women not leading” and more about women running backwards or pretending to trip so that men can feel like they are the fastest runners and always win the race! What a sad and silly way to understand life and relationships!
    So true, so true. It is what my mom was talking about!

    Anon 1, I think you already know about my blogpost concerning this concept. I coined the term “Jock Strap Religion” to express this. It’s about protecting the weak areas of men rather than actually calling upon them to strengthen themselves in the Lord.

    http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/05/jock-strap-religion.html

  93. I apologize for yesterday’s rant–I do actually know better than to respond when I’m in half-flashback territory, but I forgot. Wilson/Piper on top of Furtick, Evangelicals’ stylin’ Mephistopheles, did me in. I am fine today, but I’d like to explain. I hope that’s ok.

    My mother came to me after my father died, saying he’d told her, in his last month, how sad he was that I had been “made for suffering”. She asked if I’d ever heard that before. I had, many times. She’d heard it too, before, but conveniently forgot, as she did again immediately after asking me about it.

    I mentioned it because it is a logical extension to the crap preached by these men. By its extremity, it sets the crap into high relief:
    1. It pulls God into it (He purposely made you this way)…
    2…and makes abuse (“you are not fully human” is abuse) an inevitable part of your entire existence…
    3….while labeling it “suffering” and “submission”, which all humans endure for the sake of “love”.
    4. It also says that God ordains it so that you will become “improved” for His glory and that you must “count it all joy”.
    5. If you are not content with it, you are refusing God, which will only create more suffering and abuse.

    Thus God is the Abuser and the abuser is only serving God’s greater purpose. It is spiritual abuse, plain and simple. From there, the door is open for physical/mental/sexual abuse, if that’s the way the cookie happens to crumble. My dad’s cookie did.

    It is one of the more evil constructions out there. Who in her right mind would ever be drawn to such a god? Who, once inside, could emerge unscathed?

    I will never ever again enter the church proper until these men’s ideas are formally thrown back into the cellar from which they came. And given how long they and (others like them) have been given rein/reign regarding this evil, I’m not waiting breathless.

    PS: I am grateful for those here who’ve recounted men who’ve loved their spouses through hard times. It helped!

  94. “A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.”

    So is that what goes on in Research and Development? Ewwww….No thank you! 😉

  95. @ Eagle:
    Love-not-force Christian polygamy is just another extremity that throws into high relief the corruption at the core of complementarian beliefs.

    The lesson isn’t how shocking it is that people could come up with such a travesty but that the core beliefs preached everywhere will sometimes result in such.

  96. Honestly, if Doug Wilson can’t make it into an “egalitarian pleasuring party”, he’s doing something wrong. Maybe that’s the problem.

  97. I have not really understood the purpose of “roles” in a marriage. What I do for my wife, I do because I love her, not because it is my “job”. There are many tasks in our home that we share. We share out of love and service. I cook, clean, do wash, and do dishes (as does my wife) because:

    1-They need to be done.
    2-We love each other and wish to serve each other.

    Somehow, love and service are left out of the equation. In my church, if I went to an elder to complain that my wife wasn’t doing the dishes, I might get bitch slapped. I know the laughter would be deafening. Our Senior Pastor tends to be the cook in his house AND is well known for his curry dishes (he’s British).

  98. justabeliever wrote:

    You won’t believe this…type in Christianpolygamy.com. Seriously. There’s a KJV Bible verse on the first page.

    Just the book cover there is priceless! The manly, strong, white Prince of Sumba stands tall, Bible in hand as his harem of 7 women in 7 clingy dresses adoringly clings to him. Reminds me of Isaiah 4:1, “And taken hold have seven women on one man, In that day, saying, ‘Our own bread we do eat, And our own raiment we put on, Only, let thy name be called over us, Remove thou our reproach.’” Of course, the “that day” foretold by the prophet was NOT paradise– rather the destruction of Jerusalem, with all the gal’s finery gone and the other 6 guys killed by the Babylonians.

  99. He, Doug Wilson is ridiculous!! I would despise being married to a man like him. I actually do my husbands dishes because I love him. If I don’t get to the dishes he actually loves me enough to not overreact about it and flip out like apparently Mr. Wilson encourages husbands to do. Talk about bondage, he knows just how to help you live there. Run women from men like this, or those who embrace these kinds of teaching. Why do leaders think they need to give married couples advice on how to do their dishes. Good grief!

  100. Correction– looks like the clingy wives aren’t sporting dresses, but harem pants instead.

  101. @ Eagle, justabeliever & Dave:

    All I can say is: who let the nuts out?

    That Prince of Sunda book cover is seriously hilarious. Mr. Man with his Bible and seven ladies literally falling all over him, with a big dumb smile on his face.

  102. Doesn’t Christian polygamy fall at the first fence anyway, namely that Jesus taught one man, one woman (correct me if I’m wrong!) and Paul certainly taught it, particularly for ministers!

    Severe reality check obviously required, I think!

  103. Anon 1 wrote:

    See, their egos cannot stand the fact that anyone would think they married an ignorant door mat because they could not handle the intellectual stimulation of the wife. But that is exactly where this stuff is going. Emerson Eggerich tried to soften this and became very popular with the ridiculous “Love and REspect. (as if women don’t really care about being respected only men do)

    Emerson Eggerich was my X Pastor, and though he may have tried to soften this, he is a hard hearted man. O, the stories I could tell…

  104. Whoops, i forgot to respectfully call him Dr. Emerson Eggerich. Way back in the day, people called him pastor Eddy, but that handle was frowned upon when he became DR.

  105. @ Hester:
    LMIACF (Laughed myself into a coughing fit)
    The new look at marriage guy linked by Eagle has an almost verbatim quote from pastor JP– the husband leads, protects, and provides while the wife(s) follows, supports, and assists.
    Of course he uses King David as a good biblical example of polygamy. Tough luck, old boy, if you happen to be Nabal (yes, he deserved it), Uriah the Hittite, or Paltiel son of Laish (II Sam. 3:15-16).
    The excess of young men in a polygamous society is why *prophet* Young sent *Danites* off on gentile-killing missions, I believe.

  106. @ Gail:

    Oh, my! Someone recently mentioned that “Love and Respect” is some new material that they were going to be using. I had never heard of it. The investigation will begin. I have to say that I don’t like any teachings that espouse women are “thus” and men are “thus” therefore men need “this” and women need “this.”

  107. Gail wrote:

    Emerson Eggerich was my X Pastor, and though he may have tried to soften this, he is a hard hearted man. O, the stories I could tell…

    Does not surprise me one bit. I personally thought his teaching reeked of arrogance while twisting Ephesians like everyone else in that world. Love and Respect was a big hit with “professionals” in the comp world because a lot of the other books did not resonate with professional women who were in comp churches but his did. It is like he found a niche within a niche. These guys are really something. I can remember going to his website years ago and of course you paid a monthly fee to be in his “community”.

    It is all in the marketing. Comp stuff was a huge money maker for years.

  108. Patrice wrote:

    1. It pulls God into it (He purposely made you this way)…
    2…and makes abuse (“you are not fully human” is abuse) an inevitable part of your entire existence…
    3….while labeling it “suffering” and “submission”, which all humans endure for the sake of “love”.
    4. It also says that God ordains it so that you will become “improved” for His glory and that you must “count it all joy”.
    5. If you are not content with it, you are refusing God, which will only create more suffering and abuse.

    Sorry to hear that you lived under such tyranny. I’ve often wondered what compels people to want to follow a monster god (small ‘g’ intentional) like this. Is it fear? Fear of being consigned to the fires of hell for not knuckling under and getting with the program?

  109. ok. Here is my take on your discernment blog questions. It seems clear to me that TGC loyals use this phrase in both the positive and the negative. When referring to one of their own, that is a blog that criticizes or “discerns” poor doctrine or practice (from their perspective) about another leader or entity outside of their band of gospel allies while simultaneously lauding and shamelessly endorsing (for monetary gain) the work of their TGC pals, this is a worthy positive use of discernment blogging. However, when a blog outside the inner circle of the calvinist, complementarian back-scratching club dares to bring intelligent, factual critique of policies, doctrines, and attitudes… this would be a prime example of the negative connotation of the phrase “discernment blogging.” In their minds, this type of blogging is so very bad because it brings criticisms and poor publicity their way, and potentially has a power of influence rivaling their own. Unquestioningly agree with me = good discernment blogging. Disagree with me and make me look bad = bad discernment blogging. Plain and simple.

  110. Bridget wrote:

    Oh, my! Someone recently mentioned that “Love and Respect” is some new material that they were going to be using. I had never heard of it. The investigation will begin. I have to say that I don’t like any teachings that espouse women are “thus” and men are “thus” therefore men need “this” and women need “this.”

    I don’t know how to share links properly, but thought this might be food for thought!

    Book Review: Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerichs August 10, 2009
    Posted by philangelus in family, religion, writing.
    51 comments

    As part of the Thomas Nelson Book Review program, I received a free copy of Emerson Eggerichs’s “Love And Respect.” The book’s premise is that all marriages can be strengthened by doing what God commands: namely, that a wife should give respect to her husband and a husband should give respect to his wife.

    I have very mixed feelings about this book. Eggerichs gives some advice that I believe could save many marriages, but his premise has one irredeemable flaw.

    For the good: Eggerichs lays out “the Crazy Cycle,” whereby a woman feels unloved and denies respect to her husband; denied respect, he denies her love; feeling unloved, she denies him respect. Round and round they go. He bases this on Ephesians 5:33. His solution is the Energizing Cycle, whereby she gives her husband the respect he needs, and then feeling respected, he gives her the love she needs.

    Eggerichs says that women don’t understand a man’s basic need for respect and think loves solves it all. He says the basic gender differences between men and women cause this difficulty in communicating needs.

    He gives men and women six different areas to work on (each) to make their spouse feel either loved or respected. Those are all good areas.

    He uses imagery to get across his meaning. Pink and blue sunglasses, for example, or love/respect being like a person’s air hose, and when that’s denied, a person reacts to get what s/he needs.

    The book is ostensibly written to the couple, but 95% of it is directed toward the woman giving respect to her husband because that’s the aspect he feels is ignored in most marriage therapy and marriage books.

    Now for the bad: despite stating that men and women can often say the same word and mean different things, Eggerichs never defines respect. Never. When he started talking about “unconditional respect” I couldn’t fathom what he meant: I’d though the was talking about admiration, but then I thought maybe he meant dignity. Later on I wondered if he didn’t mean honor. By page 59, he’d ruled out any of the above three. “Respect” is never defined in a 300 page book which is all about respect. This is a glaring omission and left me trying to decipher what on earth he meant.

    Secondly, he repeatedly puts the entire burden of both love and respect on the woman. To whit: the woman needs love and freely gives love; but the man is merely described as needing to receive respect. There is not once in 300 pages a single mention that women also need and are deserving of respect or that men freely give respect to their wives (whereas wives are always described as freely giving love). Not once. Instead it’s always that the woman should give her husband both love and respect, but he should only give her love.

    This lack of parallel happens often enough that it must be deliberate. And considering the number of marriages I’ve seen that have suffered because of the husband’s disrespect for his wife, that’s a huge omission.

    He states that for women, love is an organic non-compartmentalized thing, that they equate receiving love and receiving respect. If that were the case, then the women he’s talking about would all be perfectly respectful since they’re so intent on giving love. His theory falls apart.

    Men may well value respect more than women do; men are more hierarchical in mind. But there’s no excuse for devaluing a woman’s need to be respected and have her efforts bolstered by her husband. In fact, I’d say he’s right on the respect issue being a huge problem in marriages, but that men and women are equally disrespectful toward one another.

    His statement that “all couples have this dynamic” is so far off base that I laughed. My husband and I have never had issues with mutual respect. He has never been cold and unloving in an effort to make me into a respectful and dutiful wife; I’ve never belittled him in order to make him act more loving. Period. (And my Patient Husband agrees.)

    Because of the unforgivable failure to define they key terminology of his premise, and because of his failure to state that women need respect from their husbands, I cannot bear to give this book five stars. But because his techniques for love/respect are all keepers, I can’t bear to give it less than three. So this is a four-star review, keeping in mind that I like his application and have serious reservations about his premise.

  111. Sopwith wrote:

    If you examine the present religious environment spawn’d for the most part from religious lunch milk, where the spiritual individual is fed intravenously, some weird religious concoction seemly designed to keep one compliant (as it were) and not encouraged to grow spiritually on one’s own and feed one self spiritual meat from the Word of God, the Bible. How can anyone prodigiously protruding from this gangus type of environment be ever so opion’d or discerning? 

    Hmmm….makes me think of ‘The Matrix’……how many of us have taken the red pill?

  112. Anon 1 wrote:

    I personally thought his teaching reeked of arrogance while twisting Ephesians like everyone else in that world.

    Thank-you… I have been hiding behind the name scared over at SSB because the IMPACT of sitting under Dr. E. E. for fourteen years, it took a little bit of guts here to speak out, he is such the darling in F.O. F. So, I am thankful to you for posting about Love & Respect…

  113. That review on Love & Respect is from: Seven angels, four kids, one family

    Sometimes life is its own satire

    The only thing I disagree with is the 4 star review.

  114. Oh. My. Word. I am so thankful that I am not cursed with the kind of marriage Doug describes. What foolishness. I need a wife, not a child. My heart actually hurts for him, because he is by no means experiencing a full life. I just wish he weren’t trying to pawn his dysfunctional (and – ahem – unbiblical) marriage on others.

  115. From Post: “Suppose for a moment that he really wants to serve God in their marriage, and she appears to be distinctly unenthusiastic about changing.”

    No one has said much about this line, unless I missed it somewhere.

    So serving God for him making sure she obeys, and serving God for her is… obeying him.

    Yeah, I know. We’ve already talked about this gender gospel. Or for women, the suckstobeyou gospel. It’s just still amazing to see the blatant misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Who Jesus was and why He came to this earth.

    Doug Wilson, buddy, I don’t know if you are saved. That’s between you and God. But I tell you what I know. Your doctrine is not saved. It if fallen and needs to be redeemed.

  116. You cannot make this stuff up. It’s unbelievable.

    About the only cure that I know of is to expose it to broader circles (as you have done,) and to offer alternative testimonies from families, pastors etc. who do it differently. Examples from the Reformed community are most effective.

    I wonder if these guys went to RUF at any of the major universities? Lots of the women there are studying for careers etc. I do not see this type of behavior being repeated en masse by many people, thankfully.

  117. I am male, married 30+ years, in a very egalitarian marriage. We have swapped chores over the years. We shared child care responsibilities, with me primary when she was teaching school and I had my own business and controlled my own schedule, and her primary when she was not teaching and my business needed more attention. Same with managing the family finances, etc. She does the lawn care and has me help with digging holes and trimming trees and larger shrubs. I climb the ladder to change the light bulbs — she has dizzy spells and doesn’t belong on one. I do most of the grocery shopping, she does most of the dishes, but I often will wash them when she has a project working. I have done 95% of the laundry — my chem background made me an expert at getting stains, food, soil etc. out of kids clothes (no bleach involved) and she has dissolved a few things in chlorine bleach! I do the car maintenance stuff, she repairs clothes. She tears out the walls when we remodel, I put them up. We split family prayers and bible study, whoever feels led on any given time. There are no gender driven roles in our house, just skill and capabiilty, interest and time available when the need arises.

    One comment about marital sex. A man who does not consider it a high priority to ensure that his wife is sexually satisfied before he is is falling down on his responsibility to his wife. BTW, it makes his experience much better as well.

  118. This is why women end up leaving the church and give up their faith altogether. How can you ever measure up? When one perceived “sin” is corrected, then it’s on to the next? How can you ever achieve “perfection”? Excuse me while I go throw up (maybe that’ll help me lose the last few pounds)!!

  119. Daisy wrote:

    I caught that too. Also the one about “weight.”
    Apparently Wilson thinks a husband can or should nag or chastise his wife to get thin. I sure hope Wilson (if he’s going to be fair) also has a similar list for wives, where he tells them, “this is how you handle an overweight husband who won’t slim down…”

    Given that the original words were penned by a man who resembles a bearded Fred Flintstone, the irony is, well, rich to say the least.

  120. Steve D wrote:

    Our Senior Pastor tends to be the cook in his house AND is well known for his curry dishes (he’s British).

    The “Conan and his concubine” fantasies peddled by the lunatic fringe of complementarianism haven’t made very many inroads here in Blighty, but it is certainly cool for a man to be into cooking. The latest series of Masterchef is on at the moment, for instance, and if anything there are more male entrants than female.

    I should clarify: it’s not cool for a man to throw a meal incompetently together. That probably would be considered girly. But a man who makes really good Indian grub would certainly not lack friends. Long live the subcontinent, say I!

  121. What happened to using the gifts you’ve been blessed with? If the man can cook better or the woman can do whatever manly thing better, are they both sinning? Just because I’m a woman, I should be able to bake/cook/do laundry? I really thought that if you didn’t know how to do something, you either found someone to teach you, or read a book or something. You know – research. That’s sort of the approach I took to getting through college. Oops, I forgot I should have stayed at home under my fathers covering, waiting for my husband to come “rescue” me!

  122. Nick and Steve,
    Ever noticed how a common like of good ethnic food dishes cuts across all boundaries of race, color, creed, national origin, and unites us on the basis of our humanity? In my opinion it’s straight out of Schiller’s Ode to Joy.

  123. Mara wrote:

    Doug Wilson, buddy, I don’t know if you are saved. That’s between you and God. But I tell you what I know. Your doctrine is not saved. It if fallen and needs to be redeemed.

    Mara, thanks for having the guts to say that. The fruit of what he teaches is ROTTEN to the core. So what else are we to think? We have no choice but to warn folks.

  124. Does Piper believe a real fourteen year old unwed pregnant girl spoke the Magnificat? The obsession with silencing women is just bizarre.

  125. Gail wrote:

    Thank-you… I have been hiding behind the name scared over at SSB because the IMPACT of sitting under Dr. E. E. for fourteen years, it took a little bit of guts here to speak out, he is such the darling in F.O. F. So, I am thankful to you for posting about Love & Respect…

    You go, girl. Oh, I know what it is like when someone becomes an icon and you are right smack dab in the middle of it…surrounded by it. There is really no way to even approach it. The delusion becomes so strong. FoF is ridiculous, too. Remember how they promoted the Wild at Heart guy with his depressed wife wanting to be a princess rescued by her knight? I cannot think of his name but he was more of a flash in the pan. (He used to work at FoF).

    I have not been around Eggerich folks in a while but back then he was seen as a more intellectual type. A far cry from a lot of the comps who were making the speaking gig rounds with their books where the wife had to stay stupid. He seemed to appeal to the upper middle class mega christians where both were professionals. And of course, in our view this was about market niche’s so milk it for all it is worth.

    You are among friends here! Thank God you are coming out of that Talmudic thinking.

  126. Muff Potter wrote:

    1. It pulls God into it (He purposely made you this way)…
    2…and makes abuse (“you are not fully human” is abuse) an inevitable part of your entire existence…
    3….while labeling it “suffering” and “submission”, which all humans endure for the sake of “love”.
    4. It also says that God ordains it so that you will become “improved” for His glory and that you must “count it all joy”.
    5. If you are not content with it, you are refusing God, which will only create more suffering and abuse.

    I have a question about what Patrice wrote. This sort of thing makes me furious because of what it does to children and adults. It literally makes me angry.

    How many of you think that it is a sin for me to be angry when I read stuff like this? I am talking basic anger NOT acting on it.

  127. Thanks guys for input. I am asking because I was at a dinner party last Thur when a pastor was talking being angry over injustice in the church is a sin, too. It was quite a lively discussion. I have my theories on why this thinking is out there. There is very little understanding of “justice” within the kingdom here on earth. EVeryone is looking to justice being fulfilled at all in the New Kingdom. I disagree. We are to love and work for justice now. Of course, there are disagreements on what constitutes justice and we should have those convos. But they are hard to have when “kingdom” people say anger over injustice is a sin. I totally disagree and think it is even more horrible if folks DON’t have anger over this sort of injustice. It makes me want to not be around such people as they are obviously not to be trusted.

  128. @ Hester:

    Your post reminds me of this very good post about Piper’s comments about female authors by someone calling herself Brenda here

    Here is one part of Brenda’s post:

    So how on EARTH does she lose the “dimension of her female personhood” just because Mr. Piper can’t see her?! If female or male personhood is intrinsic, how can it be negated (in relation to the complementarian view of gender roles) simply by going into another room? This bothered me more than anything else in the whole podcast – the implication that femininity or masculinity can be “taken away”, when their entire viewpoint rests on the belief that it can’t.

    As far as RHE’s blog is concerned, there are at least two Daisy’s posting there: myself and some other lady.

    So if you see someone posting as “Daisy” at RHE’s blog it may or may not be me.

  129. Followers of Jesus are CALLED TO:
    Have Authority
    Be with HIM
    Account
    Be set apart for the Gospel
    Belong to Jesus Christ
    Be saints together
    The fellowship of God’s Son
    Peace
    Freedom
    Hope
    Be saved
    Eternal life
    A holy calling
    Receive the promised inheritance
    Go out to an inheritance 
    His marvelous light
    Endure suffering
    Repay evil with good
    His eternal glory in Christ 
    And more!

    Followers of hubbies are called to:
    Watch yer spending
    Watch not Too Much TV
    Watch yer weight
    Watch not to reject hubby’s leadership
    Watch da housework
    Watch hubby’s erotic necessities
    Watever…..
    Watchblog and Mablog

    Choose ye this day…

  130. @ Beakerj:

    One of the things I mentioned under the RHE post about Piper and women authors, is I don’t understand why some Christian men feel that Christian men, or their egos, should be coddled by Christian women, as though these men are delicate little flowers (which in turn seems like a stereotypical female quality).

    There doesn’t seem to be any concern by the gender complementarians (especially among the males) on how their actions or words, or gender complementarianism itself, may hurt the egos of females, or be an affront to their ‘feminine natures’, or to them as a person.

    Like Piper’s notion that if I’m an expert at karate and get mugged on a date, I’m supposed to just stand there and do nothing? That bothers my ego right there.

    Or that I have to bat my eyelashes, act stupid, and inept and can’t show up a man (if I might be better at something than that male), because it might hurt his ego? That offends my ego.

    Why does the male ego get predominance over the female one in gender complementarianism, or, the female ego doesn’t even get considered?

  131. @ Daisy:

    You can substitute some other word in place of “ego” in my last post, such as “sensibilities,” or something else.

    My point is that there is this double standard where the male’s feelings (or ‘ego,’ ‘reputation,’ ‘feelings,’ or ‘nature,’ or whatever one wishes to call it) is routinely taken into consideration, but the female version of ego/ nature/ reputation (whatever) is not considered, because I guess the female and her feelings/ reputation and how she feels about any of it does not matter.

  132. Daisy wrote:

    Why does the male ego get predominance over the female one in gender complementarianism, or, the female ego doesn’t even get considered?

    Because in their world, females are not supposed to have egos…..

  133. @ Eagle:

    Many years ago, I was a moderator on a Christian series of forums.

    A few guys who be Christian polygamists dropped by.

    I had mentioned in one post in one of the forums to someone else that I don’t believe the Bible supports polygamy, and one of the guys from a Christian polygamy cult began sending me PMs at that forum.

    I had no interest in debating him, because nothing productive ever comes from debating kooks, and you can’t change a crazy person’s mind.

    I’m not totally sure, but I think the guy sending me the PMs was a member of Darwin Fish’s cult.

    Here a site about the Fish cult – I don’t know the person(s) behind this site, or how accurate it it, but it does give you a bit of background on at least some of these pro polygamy guys:
    A True Cult (Darwin Fish)

    Another page about him/ his group:
    Tektonics site (Re: Darwin Fish)

    Also, if memory serves, Darwin Fish believes there is no such thing as “secondary doctrine” or “secondary issues” (if not him, there was some other group of kooks I read about who believe this).

    He thinks teaching this concept means you are saying that some parts of the Bible are not important. He believes 100% of the Bible is true and equally important.

    I agree that it is too (if you’re going to be an orthodox believer), but human nature and imperfection being what it is, no two groups of Christians are going to 100% agree on interpretation of the Bible, hence the belief that secondary doctrines should not cause division of other Christians.

  134. Previously I said,
    “A few guys who be Christian polygamists dropped by.”

    ‘Who be?’ LOL.

    I meant,
    “A few guys who were Christian polygamists…”

  135. The term “discernment blog” is interesting. To me it doesn’t take a ton of “discernment” to conclude that, for example, churches covering up child abuse is bad.

  136. Dave A A wrote:

    The excess of young men in a polygamous society is why *prophet* Young sent *Danites* off on gentile-killing missions, I believe.

    That also fits in with herd animal harem behavior. The Alpha Male drives all male offspring away at puberty to eliminate competition; after puberty, his offspring are now adult males and therefore threats to his harem.

    Though I recently saw on HBO’s Game of Thrones marathon the ultimate version of this; a lord of a frontier steading near the Wall who “married” all his female offspring for his harem and sacrificed all his male offspring at birth (handing them over to the White Walkers).

  137. Daisy wrote:

    So if you see someone posting as “Daisy” at RHE’s blog it may or may not be me.

    That’s why I started using my handle. When you have a name shared by several other commentors…

  138. Kathi wrote:

    “A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.”

    So is that what goes on in Research and Development? Ewwww….No thank you! 😉

    Does the woman hold her Handmaid on her lap while her Lord and Husband “penetrates, conquers, colonizes, and plants”?

  139. @ Dave A A:

    You’re right. What a ridiculous book cover (book cover, “Prince of Sumba, Husband to Many Wives”).

    I note at the top of their site’s home page, they quote Isaiah 4:1 approvingly.

    Doesn’t Isa 4:1 speak of a time when most of the Israelite guys were dead, or carted off in captivity, and in that day, a woman was shamed if she remained unmarried, and single ladies had no financial support without a husband, which is why the females were willing to share a spouse?

    In other words, God was not giving his stamp of approval to polygamy but merely saying that would be a result of the Jewish dudes being killed off in droves, or shipped off as prisoners.

    It’s quite scary how some Christians confuse descriptive biblical passages to be prescriptive.

    There’s another, similar passage some where discussing how the Jewish ladies ate their own babies, because there was a famine and stuff. Would these crack pots suggest that adults eating human babies become the norm too?

  140. @ Kolya:

    It’s like the Christian Reconstructions who want the USA to enact Old Testament laws (adulterers would be stoned to death, etc), when Christ fulfilled all those Laws and ushered in the era of grace. I can’t figure out why so many of these guys are so keen to return to Old Testament rules, living, and culture. Christ came to set us free from that stuff, among other reasons.

  141. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I should clarify: it’s not cool for a man to throw a meal incompetently together. That probably would be considered girly. But a man who makes really good Indian grub would certainly not lack friends. Long live the subcontinent, say I!

    I have never understood why cooking is considered “feminine” or “wifely” by some. I’ve had this discussion with my wife. We’d like to see Dougie tell Emeril Lagasse that cooking is a womanly thing. Would not be a pretty sight.

    I’ve not had the chance to taste the Senior Pastor’s curry. He will sometimes cook for some smaller church events. Unfortunately, my schedule has never matched when he is doing the cooking.

  142. Muff Potter wrote:

    Ever noticed how a common like of good ethnic food dishes cuts across all boundaries of race, color, creed, national origin, and unites us on the basis of our humanity? In my opinion it’s straight out of Schiller’s Ode to Joy.

    We have a Brazilian congregation who have sponsored picnics. They are a very popular gathering. Food has always been a unifier. It’s hard to fight with your mouth full.

  143. @ Daisy:

    “In other words, God was not giving his stamp of approval to polygamy but merely saying that would be a result of the Jewish dudes being killed off in droves, or shipped off as prisoners.”

    …and having to resort to said polygamy is considered such a horror that it’s included as part of an apocalyptic description. Just like the cannibalism, astronomical food prices because of famine, etc.

  144. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    It’s odd that American gender complementarians appear to assume that cooking, or the kitchen, is, or should be, a female-only province.

    In addition to watching lots of Christian shows, I watch cable cooking shows a lot, even though I don’t cook much.

    The genders of chefs seem split pretty evenly on one channel I watch.

    For every female chef (Ina Garten, Anne Burrell, Paula Deen, Alex Guarnaschelli, and Giada De Laurentiis)…

    There is a male (or two!):
    Bobby Flay, Guy Fieri, Alton Brown, Robert Irvine, Mario Batali, Ron Ben-Israel, Emeril Lagasse, Tyler Florence, Anthony Bourdain (on Travel Channel), Justin Warner, Aaron McCargo Jr. (aka “Big Daddy”), Jeff Mauro (“Sandwich King”), Chris Santos, Aarón Sanchez, Scott Conant…

  145. @ Daisy: In her own book (co-written with her husband and, I suspect, largely ghosted by him) Stasi Eldredge talks about how wonderful it is to imagine herself as Sacajawea, “Indian princess.”

    If she’d said “Sacajawea, intrepid guide and explorer,” I’d be a little bit more sympathetic toward her, but… Sacajawea was kidnapped during a raid and enslaved by another tribe; was a teenage bride/mom (married to a fur trapper),etc

    She had a tough life and was definitely *not* a “princess,” though that whole fantasy does ring a bell for many Native folks, since lots of white people seem to believe that they had an ancestor who was an “Indian princess” of some kind. (comes up a lot on powwow-related boards and blogs… I guess a lot of people seem to feel like attending is an excuse for telling those stories to Indians.)

  146. Kristin wrote:

    The term “discernment blog” is interesting. To me it doesn’t take a ton of “discernment” to conclude that, for example, churches covering up child abuse is bad.

    Bingo. But in their world it is about who has the right to discuss it. Only the leaders can have discernment on such things. They tell us what to think and do. The Holy Spirit is not enough for us to discern right from wrong.

  147. Patrice wrote:

    My mother came to me after my father died, saying he’d told her, in his last month, how sad he was that I had been “made for suffering”.

    I just came across this while looking for something else on CBE’s site and thought you might be interested:

    Tolerating and Staying, pdf

    See the part under “Suffering For Christ.” Basically, he winds up discussing codependency there (women believing their needs are not important, and are reluctant to get them met), but the introduction talks about how some Christians have an incorrect view of suffering.

    Also discusses (as I’ve mentioned before) how women being encouraged to be codependent (which gender comp teachings do) makes women go after what they want or seek redress by using passive aggressive means or manipulation.

  148. Pastor Rick Warren’s Son Matthew Commits Suicide After Lifelong Battle With Mental Illness

    “But only those closest knew that he struggled from birth with mental illness, dark holes of depression, and even suicidal thoughts. In spite of America’s best doctors, meds, counselors and prayers for healing, the torture of mental illness never subsided,” Warren wrote in the letter to the Saddleback congregation.

    I’m sorry to hear his son killed himself.

    I used to have clinical depression (for decades). Most Christians have no idea how to help people with depression and other mental disorders.

    Christians with mental health problems get blamed for having whatever disorder they have, or told a Christian can’t have one (so you’re either not “saved” or it’s all in your imagination), and anti depressants and competent counseling are discouraged.

    And some will give you simplistic, cliched advice if you admit to having a mental health disorder, such as, “Read your Bible daily!,” or, “Serve others. You’ll be so busy meeting other people’s needs, you won’t have time to feel depressed.” etc etc etc

  149. numo wrote:

    She had a tough life and was definitely *not* a “princess,” though that whole fantasy does ring a bell for many Native folks, since lots of white people seem to believe that they had an ancestor who was an “Indian princess” of some kind. (comes up a lot on powwow-related boards and blogs… I guess a lot of people seem to feel like attending is an excuse for telling those stories to Indians.)

    One thing I think all can agree upon is that Sacagawea was definitely a woman of valor as Rachel Held Evans would put it.

  150. Anon 1 wrote:

    What if their wives became very ill for years? What would happen to women like Grace Driscoll who was no longer useful for sex? Doug Wilson’s wife? It is all about serving them and now they can’t. Chilling.

    Pat Robertson has told Christian men they can divorce their terminally-ill wives… Do you think Driscoll, Wilson, et al. would take him up on that?

  151. Daisy wrote:

    It’s like the Christian Reconstructions who want the USA to enact Old Testament laws (adulterers would be stoned to death, etc), when Christ fulfilled all those Laws and ushered in the era of grace. I can’t figure out why so many of these guys are so keen to return to Old Testament rules, living, and culture. Christ came to set us free from that stuff, among other reasons.

    Amen. But these men don’t want freedom. They want power.

  152. Tikatu wrote:

    Pat Robertson has told Christian men they can divorce their terminally-ill wives… Do you think Driscoll, Wilson, et al. would take him up on that?

    Robertson said that about people with dementia / Alzheimers (at Robertson Says Alzheimer’s Makes Divorce OK), and…

    ‘You have got to fix yourself up – look pretty, look alert:’ Christian conservative T.V. host Pat Robertson blames ‘awful-looking’ women for failed marriages

    But on other Pat Robertson hosted 700 Club episodes, he has despaired that (white) Evangelical Christians are not marrying young and/or not having babies.

    He’s sending an inconsistent message on marriage: Marriage is godly and all should do it; but, if your marriage becomes an inconvenience, or your wife gets what you feel is dumpy-looking, divorce her.

    How can evangelicals, the YRR, Baptists, or whomever in Christianity, get anyone to honestly believe they value marriage when they hold these sorts of views?

  153. numo wrote:

    @ Headless Unicorn Guy: The thing is, for the herd animals (and walruses!) who act in that way, it’s normal behavior and part of their social structure.

    For humans, not so much

    Actually, Numo, the real question is “Whay are all these Man-o-Gawds acting like ANIMALS?” Was there never a Torah? Was there never a Christ? Have they never Transcended the Animal?

  154. Daisy wrote:

    It’s like the Christian Reconstructions who want the USA to enact Old Testament laws (adulterers would be stoned to death, etc), when Christ fulfilled all those Laws and ushered in the era of grace. I can’t figure out why so many of these guys are so keen to return to Old Testament rules, living, and culture. Christ came to set us free from that stuff, among other reasons.

    They’re keen on it because they see themselves as God’s Speshul Pets who will be the Holy Commanders of Gilead giving all the orders by Divine Right. Kind of like all the Young Restless and Truly Marxist Activists of the Sixties who “Come the Revolution” saw themselves as Party Commissars giving all the orders. Anyone would be keen on a system where they’re personally benefiting from said system.

  155. Bridget wrote:

    Do you think she did some “leading” in her day?

    Ya dern tootin’ she did! Lewis & Clark’s party would have perished in abject misery were it not for her.

  156. Daisy wrote:

    I’m sorry to hear his son killed himself.

    I used to have clinical depression (for decades). Most Christians have no idea how to help people with depression and other mental disorders.

    Christians with mental health problems get blamed for having whatever disorder they have, or told a Christian can’t have one (so you’re either not “saved” or it’s all in your imagination), and anti depressants and competent counseling are discouraged.

    And some will give you simplistic, cliched advice if you admit to having a mental health disorder, such as, “Read your Bible daily!,” or, “Serve others. You’ll be so busy meeting other people’s needs, you won’t have time to feel depressed.” etc etc etc

    Daisy- You probably wont remember, but I remember how you responded to me a long time ago at Internet Monk. You were gentle, gracious, supportive, & your comment impacted me… I understand that I might have the wrong Daisy, but after lurking here for awhile, & now posting, I am 99.5% sure you were the voice of compassion at I.M. saying that you would pray for me, and now here you validate what I was told about taking anti-depressant, praying more, reading the bible, & serving others to receive my healing… Which didn’t work out.

    What worked was making a complete break from my church albeit ten years in the making & recently discovering blogs that help make sense out of the nonsense that I submitted myself to. And HUG & Eagle also opened my eyes over at I.M…. Just a thank-you, and a amen, that most Christians have no idea how to respond to depression or mental illness. Yup.

  157. Daisy wrote:

    Previously I said,
    “A few guys who be Christian polygamists dropped by.”
    ‘Who be?’ LOL.

    Argh! We be on board with the pirate talk, matey!

  158. @ Muff Potter:

    It’s amazing how those manly men explorers 200 years ago had no problem following a female Indian. I’d love to see the likes of Piper in a dugout with Sacagawea 😉

  159. I read this blog post to my husband and he’s been threatening to call the elders every time he finds some chore not yet done. I have to say it’s been very funny!

    Can you imagine if this was the job of elders … to intercede in silly marriage issues? No one would ever volunteer again to be an elder.

  160. “The New Paradigm: Proverbial Truth Taste Testers?”

    TWW: Can you help Wartburg determine:

    What is an accurate description of the discernment blogs?

    hmmm…

     In the context of christiandom…

    What is a ‘real’ discernment blog?

    Ans: ‘Truth’ as Jesus declares it in Scripture, has today, become un-palatable. 

    What?

    But that there is this nagging itch, and one has this overwhelming desire to scratch it. 

    huh?

    Hence, this present-day descent into spiritual madness. 

    Scraaaaaaaaaaaatch!

    Playing fast and loose with Biblical Truth today (biblical abandonment), will tomorrow, become the ‘new’ church paradigm:

    “Church Truth is relative”

    R we ‘there’ yet?

    Where ‘churches’ are numerical tinderboxes for the proverbial ‘un-saved’. 

    (It is the age old elevation of these ‘high places’ that will ultimately have nothing to do with Almighty God, or His Son.)

    (sadface)

    Discernment blogs: anti-anti-truth detectors?

    hmmm…

    I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father, but through Me… -Jesus

    Real discernment blogs are saying Jesus is the ‘truth’, that the Bible declares this ‘truth’, and one must examine Biblical truth for oneself. That your Eternal Soul hangs in the balance. That you are encouraged to be careful how you handle the ‘Word Of Truth’…that the Spiritual “Life’ save’d, may be your own!

    Discernment: “Back to basics?”

    To ‘discern’ is to read the Scriptures for yourself , and to trust in Jesus Christ for your salvation from the power of sin and death, who was crucified, who was buried, who rose from the dead, who now sits at the right hand of God Almighty. 

    Jesus has done His part, and now He sits in heaven interceding on your behalf.

    Jesus’ purpose on the Roman cross has, as He said” It is finished.” 

    It is ‘now’ your move…kind folk!

    Eternal Life is the offer,

    Sweeeeeeeet!

    …discernment is to reach forth your proverbial heart and take life. Jesus is that “Life” Reach for Him today?

    Best ‘discernible’ hope?

    you got it, baby!

    don’t get no bedder…

    (grin)

    —-> Da gates O’ hell shall not prevail!

    hahahahahaha

    Yahoooooooo!

    >-((S“㋡”py((º>™    

  161. Ok, that Wilson article was eye-opening (and depressing). I had no idea it was an creation order obligation of femininity to clean the kitchen promptly after every meal. Why, I’ve even done them myself a few times over the years. Have I been robbing my wife of her God given duties? Good grief, heaven forbid the wife get a career and actually make more money!

    The Sproul Jr. article did not trouble me nearly so much. He did have a a good point or two to go with his ulterior motives. I’ve heard much more childish complaining against internet blog bullies. But I’ll wait to hear what you have on Monday.

  162. Steve D wrote:

    I have never understood why cooking is considered “feminine” or “wifely” by some. I’ve had this discussion with my wife. We’d like to see Dougie tell Emeril Lagasse that cooking is a womanly thing. Would not be a pretty sight.

    Indeed; or Gordon Effing Ramsay (presenter of “Hell’s Kitchen” and “The F Word” of which at least the former has a US version, though Ramsay himself is Scottish). I’d quite like to see tubby little Park Fiscal try and go old testament on him.

    Bit of a tangent here, but Ramsay’s views on women in the kitchen are interesting. In a nutshell, he wants more women to learn to cook (as in, master the art of cooking, not cook so their husbands don’t have to) precisely because he regards cooking as a high-status, challenging, and therefore ultimately rewarding activity.

  163. @ Daisy:
    I know this is probably difficult ground between you and I because I divorced my wife who was diagnosed with depression (though I think there was more than that going on), but I completely back up what you are saying. The church has no idea how to handle depression, and what’s worse is they don’t know that they don’t know it. I felt like I got stuck in the middle of things because at the same time I was trying to protect myself from my wife, I was trying to protect her from the church. I remember one Sunday where our pastor spoke out against people going to secular therapists- this was the first time I’d ever heard him say that, and I had just finished leading the worship for the church while my wife was in a mental hospital. I felt like I betrayed everyone when he said that. My wife for leading worship at this church, and the church for turning to secular therapists for help.

    When I left that church and went to a new church, imagine my surprise when a woman got up to giver her testimony and it was about overcoming depression. She said whe went for years not taking medication because people gave her scriptures to find her delight in the Lord, etc. Finally she got desperate enough to try it “the world’s way” and it made a huge difference. With medication and a lot of work, she became a different person, and she attributed this to God’s grace in her life. She praised God for the medication and therapists! What a difference, and this church was supportive enough that they asked her to give a public testimony.

    I was brought to tears because I found a place that truly saw this issue in a healing way rather than condemning, but also because I saw a woman who handled the issue of depression in a positive way rather than the way my ex did (who did not follow through on her therapy and used her diagnosis always as an excuse to hurt rather than a direction to heal).

  164. Miguel wrote:

    …I had no idea it was an creation order obligation of femininity to clean the kitchen promptly after every meal…

    The crackpot superstitions peddled by these people are increasingly reminiscent of their medieval counterparts. Check out the following excerpts from “Horrible Histories” (a childrens’ educational series which, whilst obviously played for laughs, is actually quite well-researched):

    Paramedics from the Stuart era;

    Ancient Egyptian science (it’s funnier if you know Brian Cox, of whom this character is a parody);

    George III’s doctors.

    Deebs – maybe you should start a comedy page, in parallel with “my comment was deleted”, in which actual claims by complementarian fundamentalists can be properly laughed at.

  165. After reading the Doug Wilson article, I wonder if women get their own. The first time hubby comes home and flakes out on the couch with the tv on can wife follow the same agenda. And take it from there. How about after the first beer, or the first time hubby yells at the kids, or he beats someone up. This stuff is unbelievable.

  166. @ Muff Potter:
    “I’ve often wondered what compels people to want to follow a monster god (small ‘g’ intentional) like this.” I ‘m fairly certain that you are correct about it being essentially fear-driven. I suspect you know it because the points I laid out are fundamental to complementarianism, an ocean we have been swimming in. My experiences were only an extreme version of same.

    Fear of what? This is perhaps a little weird, but I think, humans, at bottom, have a terror of annihiliation. That fear is deepened by bad childhood treatment (even if “only” low-grade dismissal), the pain of a broken relationship, the loneliness of being rejected by one’s community, a career failure, loss of a child, etc, etc. Humans cannot bear the suspicion that self-annihilation might happen, and the abuse/pain/suffering seems to point towards it, so they will do ANYTHING to “make it ok”.

    The usefulness of a nasty little god such as the one that complementarians hold (even if they don’t mean to, or even if they don’t see Him/Her like that in other ways), is that he embraces abuse and makes it into the good and right thing. It flips the whole thing on its head. It turns truth inside out, the most obvious lie.

    This allows the sufferer to feel that she is back in management of the destruction—-it becomes instead, constructive, and a way to actually maintain a self. “I am someone because I am being abused. I am someone because the abuse is for my good. If I now follow the rules, I will be ok.” It is delusional, of course, and subconscious. And it’s repulsive to healthier people because it is opposite to reality. But it is a way to bear what is unbearable.

    This kind of thinking comes out of the broader idea that Christians must “die to self”. God doesn’t want us to die to ourselves but to *become* ourselves for the first time and learn how to thrive with others in Him/Her. When I hear Christians chiding each other in their various ways regarding dying to self, it reminds me of the “divine rape” discussed last week. These are metaphors for turning destruction into a good thing.

    Anon 1: It seems to me that when people say it’s wrong to be angry, they are “denying themselves” and evading their humanity. Emotions are automatic responses to a situation, part of our marvelously-created selves, immensely useful. When anger occurs, it is because the person senses something is very wrong and wants to take action. That is lovely and right! Nothing wrong will change if we do not first become angry. I spent a whole year in rage and sheesh, how glad I am it is over! But I could only feel it after I recognized how wrongly I’d been treated. Anger takes its path, which is usually longer and more dreary than anyone wishes.

    Sometimes I wonder whether our culture, both inside and outside the church, is slowly destructing partly because we see things going wrong but don’t get plain angry about it. I don’t mean the narcissistic rants of our leaders and media figures but the activating righteous anger that is governed by love. Instead, we clam it all up and wander along in increasing bewilderment and pain.

    IMO

    Thanks for your kindness, all of you. It is a damp warm day in Detroit and I’m going to go outside and dig in the dirt. Whoop!

  167. Patrice wrote:

    Sometimes I wonder whether our culture, both inside and outside the church, is slowly destructing partly because we see things going wrong but don’t get plain angry about it. I don’t mean the narcissistic rants of our leaders and media figures but the activating righteous anger that is governed by love. Instead, we clam it all up and wander along in increasing bewilderment and pain.

    Oh, I agree with this totally. I remember someone coining a term for it years back, I think it was undermucgrace.com where I read it: Totalitarian Niceness.

    It is a thinking where something is wrong with you if you get angry at things other expect you to be silent about or accept. The most prized attributes are “being nice” and of course others get to define what is nice. You see a lot of this sort of thinking in churches where everyone pastes on their plastic smiles because the best Christians exhibit “joy” (their definition of joy) which is always outward behavior.

    This lack of being allowed to be angry over injustice sets up a horribly false dilemma dumbing down sin and evil. Those who point out injustice are accused of being angry which ends up being a bigger sin than the injustice!

    You see the same type of tactic in politics. If you are concerned or point out problems with some policy you are automatically labeled as a hater or racist and want to kill people.

    So what happens is we can have no reasoned discourse in either venue of life over very important issues. Justice and Fairness become one sided based upon which side claimed the moral highground by calling you angry and bitter for daring to speak up or disagree.

  168. Eagle wrote:

    (HUG) – Long one

    O my goodness Eagle,

    Holy macaroni you just made my day. Your heart is something else, plus you are wicked funny. Returning the hug. My 2 year old grand daughter is hooked on cho cho trains, as I scour you tube for trains, at times I think & pray for you (:

  169. Acts 20:30 (NLT):
    Even some men from your own group will rise up and distort the truth in order to draw a following.

    If the teaching of sacrificial love does not draw the target audience, dominance and submission will appeal to the carnal nature…

  170. Yes, the whole idea of having passion and zeal about some important issues brings up the anger issue. If people do not get angry about injustice and inequality, things will pretty much remain the same.

    I wrote an article for my Church Exiters.com site entitled: Spiritual Abuse and Zeal–Going Right or Going Wrong?

    I introduce the article with the thought that: “Being zealous about something often makes people nervous. On the other hand, when it is connected to sports or outdoor activities it takes on a positive spin. Having zeal can be equated with being a fanatic, which of course, can have a positive or negative connotation depending on the context. Nevertheless, having zeal or passion for something can be a good thing.”

    I consider Jesus, the ‘Zeal Man’ by noting the response from the people: “As the people watched the new prophet, Jesus of Nazareth, they saw a man who had passion, they often exclaimed: He is not like the religious leaders; he is different! Christ’s life manifested passion and zeal.”

    Jesus modeled ‘anger turned right’!

  171. Patrice,
    Thanks for your thoughtful and well reasoned reply. It resonates with me as a humanist because its starting point is not the dualism of Western/Augustinian theology but rather the real life world of the human experience.

  172. @ Gail:

    That may have been me. I have posted there at I-Monk, as “Daisy”, a few times.

    That’s one blog I hardly ever post to, or even lurk at. I have been visiting I-Monk more often lately, the last couple of weeks, but sometimes, I go for months between visits. I usually don’t comment, but it depends on the topic being discussed.

    But yes, most Christians do a pitiful job about dealing with, aiding, or merely showing compassion to Christians who have mental health problems.

    This has caused some Christians to stop attending church or leave the faith.

    A good book on the topic (by a Christian psychiatrist – or he may be a psychologist, Dwight L. Carlson) is “Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded?” He is one of the very few who “gets it.”

    There is a lot, and I mean a lot, of ignorance about mental health disorders in American Christendom.

    The most prominent myths seem to be-

    1. a “real” Christian will never have mental health problems;

    2. you can correct mental health problems by yourself, by sheer force of will
    (which consists of things like, but is not limited to:
    just choose to be happy; choose to be well-adjusted, read your Bible more; serve other people; pray and have faith in God for a healing; don’t see a mental health professional; you don’t need medications)

    The hypocrisy is astounding. The preachers who preach 1. or 2., if they get a broken leg, I guarantee you the emergency room, to get pain medications and a cast, will be the first place they visit.

    They will not try to tough out a broken leg all alone, or read a Bible verse to mend their leg, nor will they say to themselves, “I must not be a genuine Christian, because a truly saved Christian would never get a broken leg.” They will not try to heal their broken leg or negate the physical pain they feel by working in soup kitchen feeding the homeless.

    But they almost always subject Christians who have depression (or other psychological problems) with the same advice.

  173. “When the government of the home has failed to such an extent … ”

    Way late to this party, and apologies if its already been brought up in the thread, but Wilson’s term “government of the home” really creeps me out.

    On first read, the average person may immediately equate “government” with Western-style democracy.

    However, as we all know, Wilson’s concept of “government” is closer to that of, say, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, or North Korea.

    As evidenced by the need for the Totalitarian Master Head of the Family to call in the elite security goons, oops, I mean the church elders, to punish, er I mean lovingly restore, the Rebellious Female and Her Dirty Dishes.

    This is madness, pure and simple.

  174. @ John:

    🙂 It does sound like pirate talk. I at first though I sounded gangsta, but I see pirate, now that you mention it. There is an “international talk like a pirate day.” (falls on Sept 19)

  175. Jeff S wrote:

    Sunday where our pastor spoke out against people going to secular therapists

    I’d tell him, “Great, if you ever have a heart attack, git bit by a rattle snake, or get hit by a car while I’m watching, I won’t call those secular 911 emergency guys. I’ll just pray that the Lord heal you on the spot and hope he decides to heal you supernaturally.”

    I bet he wouldn’t go for that, but Christians who suffer psychological problems, or with personality disorders, are supposed to suck it up and just deal, or read the Bible. It’s a double standard.

    I was once engaged to a guy (let’s call him “Frank”) who, after I informed him in a bit more detail later about having depression, he told me there is no such thing, it’s “all in your head.”

    His friend who introduced us also had depression (and other issues). This same friend told me, “Frank told me the same thing a couple of times, that depression is ‘all in my head.’ I don’t think he knows how much his attitude about it hurts me.”

    I apologized to this friend, told him I had gotten the same spiel from “Frank” too.

    A couple of years later, this friend of Frank’s and mine committed suicide.

    Depression is very real, it does cause people to kill themselves, or it makes it hard for them to concentrate, do every day tasks, hold down a job, etc. It’s not a figment of people’s imagination, due to a character flaw, or caused by personal sin.

    Panic attacks / disorders! I almost forgot. Christians are hideous when dealing with those who suffer from anxiety, too.

    I had social anxiety disorder and sometimes got panic attacks. Christians think they’re being helpful when they quote, “perfect love casteth out all fear” at you, but hearing the verse never helped me. (I don’t even quite understand what the heck that verse talking about. It never stopped me from having panic attacks.)

    Carlson explains in his book (“Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded”), that most anxiety is based on biological causes, it runs in families, and many times, it can only be treated by medication.

    No amount of Bible quoting at an anxiety sufferer, or them reading the Bible, will “cure” them or stop panic attacks or feelings of anxiety.

  176. @ Rafiki:

    Not sure who coined “government of the home” but I know the Puritans had a similar concept. The whole family is a “little church” deal. And Reconstructionists are pretty clear that civil government and household government are parallel.

  177. @ Muff Potter:
    I laughed when I read “resonates with me as a humanist” because I remember the 70’s, when humanism was the “spirit of secularism” that intellectual evangelical Christianity fought tooth&nail.

    It seems to me that God is a humanist, too, in that He/She actually went out of His/Her way to become one in order to save them. That makes us tiny creatures pretty dang important, which bewilders me sometime but I gladly accept it.

    Another funny thing about the 70’s Evangelical intellectuals is that they were still fighting the arrogance of the Enlightenment even though everyone else had rejected it by WWI. Thus while they celebrated art, they could not begin to address 20th century art, that looonggg tale of despair.

  178. @ Hester:I’ve heard that the Puritans had someone called a talisman that sat in on families and reported if the man was doing his job. Don’t know if that’s true. But it’s disgusting if it is. Why would anyone want to identify with the Puritans?

  179. rachel wrote:

    When referring to one of their own, that is a blog that criticizes or “discerns” poor doctrine or practice (from their perspective) about another leader or entity outside of their band of gospel allies while simultaneously lauding and shamelessly endorsing (for monetary gain) the work of their TGC pals, this is a worthy positive use of discernment blogging. However, when a blog outside the inner circle of the calvinist, complementarian back-scratching club dares to bring intelligent, factual critique of policies, doctrines, and attitudes… this would be a prime example of the negative connotation of the phrase “discernment blogging.”

    This is right on, Rachel. Double standard to the max.

  180. Patrice wrote:

    I laughed when I read “resonates with me as a humanist” because I remember the 70′s, when humanism was the “spirit of secularism” that intellectual evangelical Christianity fought tooth&nail.

    Patrice, over the years and especially over the last decade, I have come to regard humanism and Christianity not as irreconcilable opposites, but as ideas that have much to offer the individual “shopper” so to speak. You don’t have to buy into everything both sides have to offer, and indeed not all humanists and not all Christians believe the same things.

  181. @ Daisy:
    I suffer with a panic disorder – Panic Disorder with Avoidance (otherwise known as agoraphobia), I’m not housebound but I am limited on travelling & have issues with lots of stuff. The last time I mentioned this to someone, my former Pastor’s wife, she actually patted me on the head. I know she meant well but I could have punched her. Anxiety’s a tough one to admit to if you’re a Christian, especailly as sometimes being a Christian makes it worse. It certainly gives you a lot of very big things to worry about.

    I am so sorry for the Warren family, & their poor son in all his suffering. I had entire decades when I didn’t want to live, but I didn’t want to die & see God either,(or hurt my family) so, here I still am.

  182. Oh yes, “Women, Know Your Limits”…. classic Harry Enfield affectionate satire of the mores of the British middle-class in the 1930s (he often talks to his friend “Mr Cholmondely-[pronounced Chumley!]Warner in these sketches, which are as I remember usually in Pathetone black and white). His self-important working-class bloke sitting in the pub talking about the big issues of life with his mate was also quite funny when he worked himself up into an artificial (or real) rage.

  183. @ turtle:

    I think you mean tithingman. They were also the ones with those infamous sticks that they used to poke, tickle and whack people who had fallen asleep in church.

    “The tithingmen had other duties than awakening the sleepers…and the duties and powers of the office varied in different communities. In Newbury, in 1688, there were twenty tithingmen, and in Salem twenty-five. They were men of authority, not only on Sunday, but throughout the entire week. Each had several neighboring families (usually ten, as the word ‘tithing’ would signify) under his charge to watch during the week, to enforce the learning of the catechism at home, especially by the children, and sometimes he heard them ‘Say their chatachize.’ These families he also watched specially on the Sabbath, and reported whether all the members thereof attended public worship.”

    http://www.reformedreader.org/puritans/sabbath.puritan.newengland/sabbath.puritan.newengland.chapter6.htm

  184. Sorry, that was a bit OT. I saw the article about Rick Warren’s son, which is tragic. I really would commend John White’s book “Masks of Melancholy” on this issue.

    The whole area of depression and mental illness is actually vast and people suffer from different things for different reasons, sometimes biological, sometimes cognitive. Biblical counselling (note I didn’t say nouthetic counselling!) can be helpful, but I don’t think most mental health issues should be seen in purely spiritual terms. Indeed part of the added pain for religious believers (White cites this for both Christians and Jews) is that when depressed they feel they have failed in religious terms, whereas there may be no spiritual failure at all. Some people for example in these northern latitudes are simply affected by the winter darkness, a recognised syndrome now.

  185. Tikatu wrote:

    Anon 1 wrote:

    What if their wives became very ill for years? What would happen to women like Grace Driscoll who was no longer useful for sex? Doug Wilson’s wife? It is all about serving them and now they can’t. Chilling.

    Pat Robertson has told Christian men they can divorce their terminally-ill wives… Do you think Driscoll, Wilson, et al. would take him up on that?

    That’s just sick!!!

    Having watched my dad take care of my mother for all those years, loving her, giving her as much dignity as possible, he is a supreme example of Christ-likeness. To say it’s OK for a man to divorce his wife like that is sick.

    I guess “In sickness and in health” doesn’t mean much anymore.

  186. After living in San Antonio for years, we spent a couple of years in NE Ohio. From gray for parts of only 3-4 days a month, and with longer days in the winter, to gray most of all but 3-4 days a month. Both wife and daughter suffered from Seasonal Affective Disorder, which has the appropriate acronym SAD. Both needed therapy, which includes exposure to sun lamps, bright colors, not missing the sunny days, which you get out as much as possible, some talk therapy, and mild medication. Both are wonderful Christians who, when in Texas, do not suffer depression.

  187. Off-topic, report from the field:

    I and my husband just had the pleasure of spending a delightful afternoon with WW’s very own Eagle. He visited our hometown of Annapolis, and we toured the Naval Academy, visiting monuments, the chapel, John Paul Jones’ crypt, and the Academy museum. Eagle and my husband are both history buffs, so they had a lot to talk about. Anyone who doesn’t think the Internet can foster “real” relationships and community is dead wrong.

  188. For what it’s worth, there are times when a really good Naturopath can help with depression and panic attackes. There are good ones and bad ones out there.
    Having come out of a religios system that thought that yoga was demonic, going to an NP was quite scary the first time. However, she helped me realize that the panic attacks I was having was a result of a messed up thyroid. Getting on the proper supplements made a world of difference. I went from having wild, racing, uncontrolled thoughts to a calm, controlled, and peaceful mindset within about two weeks. I’ve been very stable since then.

    I was lacking in 3 basic minerals, which when added back in to my system, made a world of difference. I also discovered I don’t do well on gluten, but that’s a whole nuther story.

    And for the record, I really enjoy yoga now. And go to an NP. Hence the name KK.

  189. @ Daisy:

    Daisy,

    I looked for your comments over at I.M. after the way you responded, and poof you disappeared.

    I remember buying Dwight L. Carlson’s book a good 15 years ago. I remember trying to share it with my x pastor, he didn’t have much use for psychology, because after all, I had Christ and the sufficiency of the scriptures.( So, I put the book on my book shelf & tried harder to be a Proverbs 31 women) major fail

    I was horribly broken and still am a little broken… My heart was broken by abuse when I was a little girl, broken by sin, broken by being shamed into submission by bully tactics from sermons, broken by how my pastor responded when I poured out my story to him, and he said to me: Well, I don’t know anyone who has suffered more than *Sally* in her childhood, and she is fine”. (Which I knew Sally & her horrid story and she wasn’t fine, she was cutting herself in places I will not name here) Then he finished up with the all too familiar message about the Word, prayer & learning to submit to authority and Trust.

    He also ranted from the pulpit one time about the high use of anti-depressants among Christians- my doc had just put me on a few weeks before that sermon and his ignorance sent me into a tail spin…

    It breaks my heart that I stayed at that prisonchurch for 14 years… O, those panic attacks I had back then, I thought Jesus was weak, or I was in too much sin so that was the reasons HE wasn’t giving me His peace.

    I look at it differently now, those panic attacks were screaming at me to get the heck out of there. Its been ten years since I have attended there. My story isn’t unique, so many wounded by these leaders.

    I am slowly putting the pieces together, and my heart is grateful that I can see now that it was “spiritual malpractice” He, that church duped me.

    I am sad but no longer ashamed that my heart turned as hard as stone towards Jesus when I left that church. I was bewildered, confused, couldn’t measure up and sick of Christians.
    But a lovely & surprising thing happened as I was pewless for six years, Jesus somehow wooed me back into His tenderness, starting when I read wretched urgency at I.M.

    From here on out it will be only the voice of my Shepherd that I will follow…

    Hope that wasn’t too long winded, it feels so right to tell the truth, and know that I am in safe & glorious company here.

  190. @ Daisy:
    I am so sorry that someone you were that close to you said that to you. It makes me ill to think about.

    I think “depression” as a word is hard for average people to deal with because not only is it used very commonly to mean something non-clinical (“I got a ‘B’ on my paper- I am so depressed”), but it’s also the go-to catch-all diagnosis for people who have emotional disorders. Add to the mix a religious distrust of mental health and depressed folks don’t have a chance to get understanding.

    I spend a lot of time educating myself as I tried to cope with my ex’s depression. That I and my bilogical family were alone trying to support her did not help things, though ultimately I don’t know that it ended any differently. I absolutely believed Christians can be depressed and that secular medicine and therapy can help. I also think that depression cannot be used to excuse hurtful or neglectful behavior, especially if the person suffering from depression does not take steps to address it. So a spouse of someone suffering depression is going to have to be very understanding and take on responsibility he or she might not otherwise have, but he or she should still be able to expect effort on the part OT the depressed person toward making the relationship safe.

    I held on a long time because I didn’t want to leave my ex due to her depression, but ultimately it became the go-to excuse for her behavior and she would not follow through on any of her therapy. It’s also with noting that it was the opinion of multiple people in the medical field that depression was not the whole story with her. As I’ve said, I’ve met people who’ve done the work and have had successful relationships and families, even while living with depression. My hat is off to those (and to you) because it’s a really raw deal- depression is not easy for anyone. The church could help the situation a lot if it would stop confusing clinical depression with the common usage of the word.

  191. As someone who has experienced chronic, low grade depression for decades, I can indeed testify to the fact that naturopaths can help, as kindakrunchy recommended. I had autoimmune thyroid disorder that went undiagnosed for DECADES and was finally diagnosed 3 years ago. For years I thought the hypothyroid-induced depression was a character issue with me. That I was lazy or something. The few times I shared with Christian friends how I was feeling, I got “Jesus is sufficient for all things.” The suggestion from the Christian quarter is often that depression is a “spiritual problem.” It is not. It is a lack of certain brain neurotransmitters. I could not see it for what it was, and neither could my loving family, who had no experience with it. I beat myself up for years. Recovering has been like peeling an onion. The greatest help has come from alternative/progressive doctors (who fix the underlying disorder instead of prescribing drugs) and from a wonderful, wonderful book called The Mood Cure by Julia Ross.

  192. @ Muff Potter:
    I agree. It is fun to wander through one’s days and find, in an unexpected place, a bit of truth peering out with a small grin. Or getting a tap on the shoulder and turning around to find its been tiptoeing behind. Or being startled when it leaps out of the bushes with a bang.

    Sometimes the bits of truth need shaking out or scrubbing down or polishing up, and sometimes they’re pristine as is. It’s a treasure hunt but the treasures are alive and play hide&seek while one pokes around. I can think of no more enjoyable way to live this life.

  193. Beakerj wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    I suffer with a panic disorder – Panic Disorder with Avoidance (otherwise known as agoraphobia), I’m not housebound but I am limited on travelling & have issues with lots of stuff. The last time I mentioned this to someone, my former Pastor’s wife, she actually patted me on the head. I know she meant well but I could have punched her. Anxiety’s a tough one to admit to if you’re a Christian, especailly as sometimes being a Christian makes it worse. It certainly gives you a lot of very big things to worry about.
    I am so sorry for the Warren family, & their poor son in all his suffering. I had entire decades when I didn’t want to live, but I didn’t want to die & see God either,(or hurt my family) so, here I still am.

    BeakerJ, that was an incredibly brave thing for your to tell your pastor’s wife. I think her response comes from not only not understanding the issue you suffer with, but more importantly not knowing how to say, “I don’t know anything about panic disorders, could you explain it to me?” Can you imagine if people felt comfortable in saying they didn’t know and what a gesture of real relationship/love it would be to inquire so as to learn?

    I long for leaders to see “sheeple” as valuable simply because we breathe. I also long to see leaders recognize they are “sheep” too. I know one pastor and his wife who actually do this. It gives me hope. The rest I’ve known make me want to expose their fake exterior of love bombing behaviors, which yield to being bothered by a person’s presence once they’ve been “acquired”.

  194. Leila wrote:

    As someone who has experienced chronic, low grade depression for decades, I can indeed testify to the fact that naturopaths can help, as kindakrunchy recommended. I had autoimmune thyroid disorder that went undiagnosed for DECADES and was finally diagnosed 3 years ago. For years I thought the hypothyroid-induced depression was a character issue with me. That I was lazy or something. The few times I shared with Christian friends how I was feeling, I got “Jesus is sufficient for all things.” The suggestion from the Christian quarter is often that depression is a “spiritual problem.” It is not. It is a lack of certain brain neurotransmitters. I could not see it for what it was, and neither could my loving family, who had no experience with it. I beat myself up for years. Recovering has been like peeling an onion. The greatest help has come from alternative/progressive doctors (who fix the underlying disorder instead of prescribing drugs) and from a wonderful, wonderful book called The Mood Cure by Julia Ross.

    Read the same book, got the same help. Normal thyroid tests for years only masked my thyroid problems. Once discovered so much was fixed! My “character issues” melted away. My irritations turned into easy situations for me to deal with. Things that used to hurt, were no longer issues. Talk about an eye opener! Never knew how many “spiritual issues” can be fixed by simply propping up the thyroid and associated physical issues.

  195. Katie wrote:

    Read the same book, got the same help. Normal thyroid tests for years only masked my thyroid problems. Once discovered so much was fixed! My “character issues” melted away. My irritations turned into easy situations for me to deal with. Things that used to hurt, were no longer issues. Talk about an eye opener! Never knew how many “spiritual issues” can be fixed by simply propping up the thyroid and associated physical issues.

    Katie, thanks for posting this. I am not there yet. It has been three steps forward, two steps back. Because my problem went undiagnosed for so long, it is going to take a long time to figure out completely and heal it. But I am starting to find what you describe above – that everything gets so much easier. Stories like yours have been my lifeline as I have navigated through these waters.

    It has really humbled me, too. I can look around and when I see so many people and families in distress and dysfunction, I am thinking much of it could be improved with the right nutrients and neurotransmitters. But that kind of help and insight is really hard to grasp hold of. I was one of the lucky ones who kept seeking answers for years. I am MUCH less judgmental than I used to be. This type of distress, IMHO, is part of the fall. Things just don’t work the way they should, including brain neurotransmitters!

  196. Btw, when one’s thyroid is not functioning properly, one’s dishes tend to be stacked on the counter and laundry on the floor. Can you imagine how many times my husband could have just called the elder instead of lovingly helped me in sickness and in health, for better or for worse? He’s sitting here kicking himself for having done so much “women’s work” when I was ill!

    I wonder how many women have actually been through this process all the way to the point of being labeled “rebellious”, only to find out later that there was an underlying medical issue?

    What if the husband gets hit with cancer and can’t work, should the wife call the elder after she explains her expectation that he be the provider of the family?

  197. @ Daisy:
    I really like that CBE pdf! Thanks.

    People might be willing to be persecuted for righteousness’ sake, but being “persecuted” for someone’s power-hunger is meaningless. And one might decide to turn the other cheek to an enemy but it is never a good idea to live with one. lol

  198. @ Katie:

    I’m surrounded by thyroid patients – my dad (cancer survivor who hasn’t a thyroid since ’94), my aunt, my flute teacher, my cat, and lots of family friends. It can definitely have a huge influence on behavior. People always look at my mom funny when she says that but it’s true. Totally disproportionate for such a small organ…

  199. Beakerj wrote:

    I suffer with a panic disorder – Panic Disorder with Avoidance (otherwise known as agoraphobia), I’m not housebound but I am limited on travelling & have issues with lots of stuff. The last time I mentioned this to someone, my former Pastor’s wife, she actually patted me on the head. I know she meant well but I could have punched her. Anxiety’s a tough one to admit to if you’re a Christian, especailly as sometimes being a Christian makes it worse. It certainly gives you a lot of very big things to worry about.

    There are times that I wake up in a panic.Sometimes it’s related to circumstances. Sometimes I can’t explain it. Thanks for posting this. I think I will talk to a doctor friend and see if she can make a referral.

  200. Exactly!!!

    I have several friends that were told they were lazy and rebelling because their houses were messy when they were so exhausted they could barely function. I know what that’s like!!! I’ve been there. I’ve been so exhausted that going to the grocery store put me on the couch for the rest of the day. Heck yeah, I was depressed. Ya think???

    Once I got the right kind of iron in my system and my thyroid was working again, the world became a much better place.

    I just keep thinking of these younger women who have one baby after another which severly stresses the adrenals and depletes the system of calcium and other nutrients which supply the thyroid. Then they have several small children, may be nursing or pregnant, and then repremanded because the dishes aren’t done after every meal. And on top of all that, they aren’t allowed to be depressed.

    What kind of bondage is being placed on these sweet young mothers? Can we add another weight to their already burdened shoulders? Oh, don’t get me started!!!!

    @ Katie:

  201. SteveD,

    It’s hard to find docs who actually deal with thyroid issues. Here’s the litmus test: Ask if the doc will prescribe dessicated natural thyroid meds? If not, they most likely don’t deal with thyroid other than their one size fits all answer of a drug. When you tell them you have any anxiety or panic disorder, they won’t connect the dots to the thyroid and other related suffering organs.

    Leila & Steve, try the Thyroid Support Group in Yahoo Groups. The ladies over there are very helpful in helping you know what tests to get, how to read the results if you have symptoms but a “normal” blood test, and some suggestions of how to find a doc.

    Sorry for the departure from the topic.

  202. @ Jeff S:

    I was lucky. Not too long before Matthew was diagnosed with autism, I went forward at my church to ask for prayers. (“Going forward” is a term used in several Christian churches meaning, to walk to the front of the church, usually to ask for prayers or to “recommit your life to Christ” or to “commit your life to Christ”. Some churches use the term “altar call.” These days, I usually say “go down front” because the term “going forward” does have some unhealthy connotations for me.)

    I was surrounded by a large group of people, and my prayer request was read aloud. This is the way it’s done at many churches that practice altar calls. Several years ago, we stopped making public announcements of prayers of people that went down front. Nowadays, if someone goes down front, they are given the opportunity to pray with an elder and their request is not publicly announced unless the person asks for it to be.

    Anyway . . . the request I made was that I was “drowning in a sea of depression”.

    During the last song we sang before church was over, my minister came up to me and he told me, “I was where you are one year ago. And I’m still here.” It meant a great deal to me that he would say that. And afterwards, I remember being “drowned” by a lot of support. The one comment that got through to me was from someone who said, “I’m so sorry. This must be so hard for you.”

    I wish I could say that I was miraculously healed of depression. I’m still on meds, and I have my nasty moments, but things are not quite as dark as they were back then.

    I share this to show that there are churches out there that at least do try to understand. But having said that, I also agree that plenty of churches and Christians have NO clue how to deal with depression.

  203. Katie, the Stop the Thyroid Madness and the yahoo thyroid (and adrenal fatigue) groups have been a godsend for me. Mainstream doctors are in the dark ages when it comes to thyroid treatment and they poo-poo the very idea of adrenal fatigue. Endocrinologists, who who should know better, are the worst. Most of us thyroid patients have to go to literally about 12 different doctors before we get the help we need. Thyroid problems are vastly under-diagnosed and undertreated, to the tune of an estimated 8 million people in the U.S. So it’s easy to see how so much of what these patriarchal types label “rebellion” is in fact a very real illness.

  204. Katie wrote:

    SteveD,
    It’s hard to find docs who actually deal with thyroid issues. Here’s the litmus test: Ask if the doc will prescribe dessicated natural thyroid meds? If not, they most likely don’t deal with thyroid other than their one size fits all answer of a drug. When you tell them you have any anxiety or panic disorder, they won’t connect the dots to the thyroid and other related suffering organs.
    Leila & Steve, try the Thyroid Support Group in Yahoo Groups. The ladies over there are very helpful in helping you know what tests to get, how to read the results if you have symptoms but a “normal” blood test, and some suggestions of how to find a doc.
    Sorry for the departure from the topic.

    Don’t be sorry. I’ve been on thyroid meds for a while and I may just go to the online group you mentioned.

  205. Leila, I’m so glad you’ve already found good resources.

    I’ve made progress in segments. Just found a doc to deal with thyroid only this year after 20+ attempts in 3 or 4 states.

    I never had any success with any Endocrinologists.

    If my husband had not been loving, kind, gentle, patient, understanding …. I wouldn’t have made it this far. This is why Doug Wilson’s approach hits a nerve with me.

  206. Searching wrote:

    Eagle wrote:
    Dee/Deb make sure you’re sitting down and not eating or swallowing anything. None of us want you guys to choke when you read this…
    http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/legalism-gender-roles-exhibit-c-piper-commentary
    I just got through reading that… was having frustrations with disqus not loading comments properly/in order, so was temporarily distracted from the pain in my brain from reading Piper’s nonsense… Honestly, with my first reading of that Piper quote, my momentary assumption was that it was satire. I didn’t think it was actually something that Piper had actually said, and I am NO Piper fan (so can’t blame rose-coloured glasses). But it wasn’t satire!
    from the post:
    Regarding a woman who has written a biblical commentary, he explains:
    “She’s not looking at me, and directing me…as woman. There is this interposition of this phenomenon called ‘book’ that puts her out of my sight and, in a sense, takes away the dimension of her female personhood, whereas if she were standing right in front of me and teaching me as my shepherd…I couldn’t make that separation”
    ….
    As if there wasn’t enough crazy to be found in this particular blog post care of Doug Wilson, the Wife (Dishwasher?) Whisperer.

    One of my FB friends posted this and commented on it. She quoted Scot McKnight, who referred to Piper’s response as “exigetical gymnastics.” She then said, “I personally think that exegetical gymnastics sound far riskier than reading a commentary written by a woman.” (BTW, the young lady is my minister’s daughter, she is studying for a master’s in Biblical studies.)

    I couldn’t resist. I wrote back, “I can just see it now: uh, 9.0 for form but a little deduction on the landing.” 🙂

  207. dee wrote:

    @ Tired:Make sure you clean up thoroughly or the elders will come.

    One elder told a friend of mine that it was possible that the way she kept her house would have a bearing on whether or not her husband would be elected an elder himself. My mouth almost fell open, and my friend was nearly in tears because she–by her own admission–is not a good housekeeper.

  208. @ Tina:
    Thank you for sharing your story- it always encourages me to hear those who fight depression successfully; I know it isn’t easy. It also makes me sad at the same time, because I wanted so badly for my ex to fight it too. If she had, I was right there by her side, but I couldn’t do it all for her.

    I am very blessed to have been to two churches (both PCA) that have had a healthy attitude about both depression and my divorce. The pastor of the first told me that he was terrible at counsling and understanding mental and emotional health issues, so he had therapists to refer people to. I appreciated the humility. A little more of that attitude would go a long way in Christiondom- the realization that a pastor can admit there are things he doesn’t know.

  209. @ Patrice: I hear you – all that Hans Rookmaaker-style Doom And Gllom about artists like Miro -??!!!

    (I say this as a former Rookmaakerite, though I was already questioning his ideas while at Swiss L’Abri, of all places…)

  210. @ Leila: Hmm… looking back, i’m very grateful for the M.D. (internist) who pinpointed my thyroid problem, but i have to admit – she’s an exceptional doc, period.

    sorry to hear that so many people aren’t getting the medical care – and compassion – they/you deserve. It just doesn’t make sense to me that clearly obvious things (including fatigue and depression) *aren’t* being viewed as possible indicators of physiological problems.

  211. @ Leila: i’m really shocked that T3 and T4 aren’t run routinely – ???!!!

    that makes NO freakin’ sense whatsoever!!!

  212. Patrice wrote:

    @ Muff Potter:
    I agree. It is fun to wander through one’s days and find, in an unexpected place, a bit of truth peering out with a small grin. Or getting a tap on the shoulder and turning around to find its been tiptoeing behind. Or being startled when it leaps out of the bushes with a bang.
    Sometimes the bits of truth need shaking out or scrubbing down or polishing up, and sometimes they’re pristine as is. It’s a treasure hunt but the treasures are alive and play hide&seek while one pokes around. I can think of no more enjoyable way to live this life.

    I love this – am smiling. So many people from my past are frightened of this concept, but I have found God communicating Truth to me from any and every source available. Sometimes. I’ll be watching a movie and he’ll highlight something and it’s like it shines out from the rest around it. Other times, he’ll tell me he wants me to read a spevific book now. And when I do, he talks through the whole thing….and they are rarely ‘Christian’ books.

    Truth is not locked in the four walls of builds, or in the limits of man-made doctrines or creeds. And the human heart knows Truth when it hears/sees it. How much more does Truth sing from all facets of crreation when the very Spirit that created us (and it) is in us guiding the tour….

  213. Hmmm…the whole mental illness issue in the relegion I grew up in was bad. They taught that most, if not all mental illnesses was the result of demonic possession. Period. Lovely thing to teach a child that suffers from depression and is suffering from undiagnosed or treated PTSD before puberty because of the abuse endured. The pastor of the cult I used to be a leader at often taught that depression was a sin.

    When I finally reached the point where I knew I needed professional help, it was definitely and added layer of fear to break through – when I told my mother I was going to get counseling, she got very upset and tried to scare me away from it by warning me they would brainwash me and make me accuse people of things that never happened. Now, of course, I recognize she was afraid I would start putting the pieces together and see what she had done…which is exactly what happened.

    A year and a half ago, I had started attending a little fellowship and was beginning to feel a little sfae…then, about a year ago, the pastor preached a series on demonology – I only heard one – that was enough. He taught that “there was no such thing as mental illness – you couldn’t do blood tests and say, “see, there it is.” He said, “all mental illness and even epilepsy were demonic oppression/possion and the only cure was to take the “Wordd of God” and pound people with it like a hammer on rock until the demonic hold breaks.”

    That sent me into a PTSD flashback right there in the service. Inside, I was screaming, “No! No! No!” And it took all the effort I could muster to hold it together on the outside because I knew that if I started ‘manifesting symptoms’ of the PTSD – shaking, crying, acring scared and saying, “No!” – they would attribute it to the presence of demons and begin trying to exocise them out of me, And that, I think, would have pushed me over the edge.

    So…church is not exactly the safest place for those of us with battle wounds – or even scars – and so I stay away. Sigh.

  214. Sorry – I’m not trying to laugh at anyone else…

    I have ADHD (as we put it: I have ADHD, and my wife therefore suffers from it), I have in the past suffered from depression – whilst religious, which indeed gave me a whole load of unhelpful preconceptions – so I do know the symptoms. Oh, and I’m Type 1 diabetic. So I don’t really know what that says about my “level of faith”. Nevertheless, a good way to manage ADHD symptoms is to have a good chuckle at oneself from time to time.

    For anyone who didn’t find my last post funny – I do get you. Please accept my apologies, and humour me…

  215. Glad to see the links and info about thyroid problems. Depression is a recognised clinical feature of hypothyroidism, the diagnosis of which is often missed in middle-aged women complaining of symptoms such as tiredness, weight gain, or depression, or carpal tunnel syndrome.(Davidson’s Principles and Practice of Medicine, 1991).
    An easy way to check oneself if one’s thyroid is under performing is to take one’s basal temperature on waking for several consecutive mornings. If the average temperature is below 97.8 deg F (36.6 deg C) then further investigation by suitable professionals is needed. See http://www.thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testing/basal_temperature.html for more detail.
    I hope everyone who suffers with an underactive thyroid receives the help they need.

  216. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Nick – were you very badly affected by your ADHD as a kid? I’m looking for some wisdom about how to help several young people on my case load whose ADHD (medicated) massively impacts their sleep, mood , impulse control etc. Was there anything particular that helped you?

    If you have wisdom can you ask Dee for my email address? I feel frustrated for these guys & want to offer more to them. Heavens, we could even talk on the phone, being on the same sub-continent & all!

    P.S. Will be looking at those thyroid sites everyone 🙂

  217. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    Especially given the idiots we have running the state government. Cut taxes, starve schools, no Medicaid expansion, 13 different crimes involving oysters, lock em up and provide no in prison services to help with reentry. The asylum is being run by the inmates here. But there are a lot of good people, and the state is moving to the center slowly due to demographic shifts that may allow some decent governance. But the SAD proved that it is biological as well as psychological, and that the external social environment is not the issue (e.g., church won’t cure it.

  218. Estelle wrote:

    An easy way to check oneself if one’s thyroid is under performing is to take one’s basal temperature on waking for several consecutive mornings. If the average temperature is below 97.8 deg F (36.6 deg C) then further investigation by suitable professionals is needed. See http://www.thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testing/basal_temperature.html for more detail.

    Not to hijack the thread, but I have a question about this. I chart my basal temps. every morning (Fertility Awareness Method), and my average temps. before ovulation are always well below 97.8 deg F (usually around 97.2 deg F). Though I looked at the symptom checklist and don’t seem to really have any of the symptoms (muscles aches and pains seem to be it), should I be concerned? I almost sound like a hypochondriac, but the basal temp. comment really hit me.

    To others, please forgive my TMI! 🙂

  219. @ Beaks: I wasn’t diagnosed as a wee yin, in large part because I was academically bright. Since I was generally top of the class, there weren’t any obvious problems to diagnose, and my limited social development and impulsive behaviour were just put down to willful immaturity – which I got away with as I was top of the class. And an inability to focus didn’t trouble me pre-university because I grasped nearly all the subject matter without having to focus too much. I passed the Cambridge entrance exam (in 1985 – the last year it was set), albeit narrowly, without doing much in the way of work for it.

    However, once at Cambridge and studying for a demanding subject compressed into 8-week terms, the wheels came off suddenly and catastrophically. So my own story of ADHD is very much one of adult ADHD. I’m in regular contact with a local support group based in Glasgow/Edinburgh, though, and between us we’ve probably got some stories to tell. If you think that’ll be useful, we can certainly pick this up separately.

  220. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    A year and a half ago, I had started attending a little fellowship and was beginning to feel a little safe…then, about a year ago, the pastor preached a series on demonology – I only heard one – that was enough. He taught that “there was no such thing as mental illness – you couldn’t do blood tests and say, “see, there it is.” He said, “all mental illness and even epilepsy were demonic oppression/possession and the only cure was to take the “Wordd of God” and pound people with it like a hammer on rock until the demonic hold breaks.”

    Or more likely the person breaks — into a complete psychotic break and/or suicide. At which point, the preacher/demonologist washes his hands, wipes his mouth, and solemnly works it into his next series on demonology as “The Debbil Made Him Do It.” Wash, Rinse, Repeat; Wash, Rinse, Repeat…

  221. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    So many people from my past are frightened of this concept, but I have found God communicating Truth to me from any and every source available. Sometimes. I’ll be watching a movie and he’ll highlight something and it’s like it shines out from the rest around it. Other times, he’ll tell me he wants me to read a spevific book now. And when I do, he talks through the whole thing….and they are rarely ‘Christian’ books.

    Coming from a church whose preferred way to flake out is “Mary Channeling”, I am normally skeptical of claims of “private revelation”, i.e. “God Hath Revealed Unto Me…” But years ago in an Internet Monk comment thread about “Jesus Junk” in the creative arts, I came across a claim that seemed credible.

    Said private revelation claimed that because of the abysmal track record of Christianese media, God was withdrawing his mantle from the entire Christianese media machine — “Mene, Mene, Tekel, Uparshim” — and was bestowing it upon SECULAR writers and artists and moviemakers. Henceforth secular arts would begin to say what God wanted said.

  222. Muff Potter wrote:

    Patrice wrote:

    I laughed when I read “resonates with me as a humanist” because I remember the 70′s, when humanism was the “spirit of secularism” that intellectual evangelical Christianity fought tooth&nail.

    Patrice, over the years and especially over the last decade, I have come to regard humanism and Christianity not as irreconcilable opposites, but as ideas that have much to offer the individual “shopper” so to speak.

    You DO know that Humanism began as a Christian movement in the late Middle Ages? It was a reaction against “worm theology” and Docetism of the time that emphasized the Spiritual(TM) and especially SIN to the point that the people in the Body of Christ (and all that comes with being human) were being ignored and denigrated. Humanism emphasized that people were important.

  223. Anon by Choice wrote:

    After living in San Antonio for years, we spent a couple of years in NE Ohio. From gray for parts of only 3-4 days a month, and with longer days in the winter, to gray most of all but 3-4 days a month. Both wife and daughter suffered from Seasonal Affective Disorder, which has the appropriate acronym SAD. Both needed therapy, which includes exposure to sun lamps, bright colors, not missing the sunny days, which you get out as much as possible, some talk therapy, and mild medication. Both are wonderful Christians who, when in Texas, do not suffer depression.

    This is interesting to me. I grew up in Florida and never experienced SAD or depression of any kind. Moved to Texas and I get depressed very easily and I experience SAD from October/November to April of every. single. year. It is probably just where in Texas I live, though I confess I have no great love for this state. 😉

    So glad to see all this info on thyroid problems. I tried to get my doctor to diagnose me with this but because my thyroid levels were “within the normal range,” he decided to put me on birth control pills and anti-depressants instead. :-/ Sigh. As soon as this pregnancy is over, I am finding a new doctor.

    Oh, and I a proof positive why having lots of kids close together can be bad for a woman’s body. This pregnancy was a major surprise and is definitely the last one. I can never do this again. I feel for all these women stuck in patriarchal lives who are ruining their health by being baby-factories.

  224. Hester wrote:

    Not sure who coined “government of the home” but I know the Puritans had a similar concept. The whole family is a “little church” deal. And Reconstructionists are pretty clear that civil government and household government are parallel.

    i.e. both Absolute Dictatorships by Divine Right.

  225. I love how one of the things Wilson’s hypothetical husband may be upset about is HIS WIFE’S WEIGHT.

    BECAUSE NO OVERWEIGHT WOMEN ACTUALLY HAVE A WEIGHT PROBLEM, THEY ARE JUST LAZY AND THEIR WEIGHT COULD TOTALLY BE CHANGEABLE.

  226. sad observer wrote:

    Doug’s post is so offensive on so many levels.

    And just think sad, now that Piper has embraced Wilson many young indoctrinated skulls will automatically think Wilson is credible. and the problem grows and perpetuates itself. The question to ask is why did Piper think Wilson, who was not long ago considered fringe wacko, is credible. Tells us a lot about Piper that many missed cos they were hypnotized with his “passion”, verbosity and flailing arms.

  227. sad observer wrote:

    I love how one of the things Wilson’s hypothetical husband may be upset about is HIS WIFE’S WEIGHT.
    BECAUSE NO OVERWEIGHT WOMEN ACTUALLY HAVE A WEIGHT PROBLEM, THEY ARE JUST LAZY AND THEIR WEIGHT COULD TOTALLY BE CHANGEABLE.

    And while they’re working on their weight (under their Penetrating Colonizing Conquering Planting Christian Hubby), how about working on enlarging their boobs, too?

  228. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And while they’re working on their weight (under their Penetrating Colonizing Conquering Planting Christian Hubby), how about working on enlarging their boobs, too?

    While having a quiverfull, too.

  229. Jeannette Altes wrote:

    Hmmm…the whole mental illness issue in the relegion I grew up in was bad. They taught that most, if not all mental illnesses was the result of demonic possession. Period. Lovely thing to teach a child that suffers from depression and is suffering from undiagnosed or treated PTSD before puberty because of the abuse endured. The pastor of the cult I used to be a leader at often taught that depression was a sin.

    I had demons cast out of me several times, it didn’t do a lot good. Left that church only to get into one where the leaders didn’t cast out demons, but said depression was a sin, and taking meds was undermining Christ & the sufficiency of the scriptures… In my case, it wasn’t my thyroid, I went down that road desperate to figure out what was wrong with me.

    I went through several therapists, each one helping me to a degree to unpack my childhood trauma. I was in my 50’s when I asked my husbands doctor to refer me to a support group for people who cared for spouses that had chronic illness, my husband had been in a wheelchair for a year after several surgeries & I was worn out. She referred me to a Psychiatrist, and it only took about 5 sessions & my telling her about my recurring nightmares, that she explained that I suffered from PTSD…

    Please to all who who suffer from ptsd or serious depression, please don’t read the following if you are easily triggered.

    Watching your mother repeatedly get thrown down the basement stairs, getting beat on a bare bottom, being chased as siblings a couple of times by dad with a gun saying he was going to kill us, have a creepy ass uncle rape your little sister,and you were the one who held her as she cried, and then the straw that broke this little girls back was seeing your best friend twin find dad’s gun under seat, think it is a toy & accidentally kills his brother while I sat next to them. And to be told by the church that I had demons. And to be told that depression was a sin. That I tried to put my past in the past, pretend that Jesus had made me a new creation, that I played the game, makes me sick.

  230. @ Anon 1: This worries me as well. Unfortunately, Piper has demonstrated enough strangeness in some of his declarations (muscular women, for one) that Wilson provides some camaraderie in the very odd department.

  231. @ Dee:
    After watching THE IRON LADY I was fascinated by her and looked her up on google. I feel somewhat relived that her struggle with Alzheimer’s is over.

  232. Back to the discernment topic. Dee and Deb – – how ’bout us bloggers attend this: http://gfbchurch.com/2011/12/a-call-to-discernment-registration/

    Frank Turk tweeted about it. Maybe they give out certificates “Passed our Discernment” test and we can put a button on our sidebar to “prove” that we have their approved kind of discernment – – kind of like the Good Housekeeping seal of approval.

    Wait – – I have another idea. Maybe we can put on our own Discernment Diva conference. We can surely come up with a list of workshops/ with “breakout sessions” and all. I’m trying to figure out how we can do live tweeting if we are speaking. You need to call me so we can work out the details.

  233. @ Gail:

    I’m sorry for all you’ve suffered. I’m glad someone was finally able to give you a diagnosis. Never let anyone make you feel guilty for feeling depressed after going through so many horrible events.

    I wonder, do these “depression is always a sin” types believe that soldiers coming back from combat can have PTSD? So many American Christians seem to glorify war. I wonder if the same people are judgmental of the problems their “beloved” soldiers return home with.

  234. @ Eagle:

    Don’t forget about how they rewrite history and peddle it as “providential history” books for homeschoolers. Several families at my previous FIC (family-integrated church) owned “The Light and the Glory” and thought the Puritans were the greatest thing since (or before) sliced bread.

  235. @ Eagle: I think you’ll find that members of the Labour Party (and not a few people from the north of England) have a somewhat different view.

    ‘Nuff said.

  236. @ Julie Anne:

    Well I’m sure we won’t see Tim Challies anywhere near that seminar!! He might be contaminated by the discernment crowd. 🙂

    As for me, aftet reading up on the speakers and subjects, I’m glad I’m thousands of miles away from that group!

  237. sad observer wrote:

    I love how one of the things Wilson’s hypothetical husband may be upset about is HIS WIFE’S WEIGHT.

    BECAUSE NO OVERWEIGHT WOMEN ACTUALLY HAVE A WEIGHT PROBLEM, THEY ARE JUST LAZY AND THEIR WEIGHT COULD TOTALLY BE CHANGEABLE.

    Yes.

    And adding a little to this, when you’re pregnant, your body holds onto weight to protect the baby. It’s designed to do this. And for many ladies who have one little one after another, there is not enough time in between to lose the weight from the previous pregnancy.
    Add to that if she’s not taking in the nutrients required to support herself and the baby, the baby takes what it needs, leaving her further depleted. This leads to adrenal issues. Furthering the issue, add in the sleep loss related to pregnancy and sleep loss from caring for a newborn and nursing. Added to that is the stress from small children and a demanding husband, and you’ve got a poor lady who is struggling to survive.
    And when you add to all of that blood sugar issues, and cravings from nutritional deficits and foods like sweets and caffeine that make you feel better just for a little while, but are not so great long term, it’s just heartwrenching.

    All of this is going to mess up the thyroid, which is going to hinder the ability to lose weight. Sometimes thyroid function can mess up fertility, so now she has the added burden of NOT being able to lose the weight or get pregnant which will probably be blamed on her as well or a miscarriage which will also be blamed on her because of an obscure OT verse about God’s blessing and not miscarrying the young.

    And then the men tell the women that THIS is what she’s created for and she’s supposed to rejoice in her suffering. Ugh.

  238. @ sad observer:

    Not only that, but hello!!! He isn’t exactly at goal weight himself.sad observer wrote:

    I love how one of the things Wilson’s hypothetical husband may be upset about is HIS WIFE’S WEIGHT.

    BECAUSE NO OVERWEIGHT WOMEN ACTUALLY HAVE A WEIGHT PROBLEM, THEY ARE JUST LAZY AND THEIR WEIGHT COULD TOTALLY BE CHANGEABLE.

    Not only that, but Mr. Wilson hasn’t exactly reached goal weight himself.

  239. HoppyTheToad wrote:

    Don’t forget about how they rewrite history and peddle it as “providential history” books for homeschoolers. Several families at my previous FIC (family-integrated church) owned “The Light and the Glory” and thought the Puritans were the greatest thing since (or before) sliced bread.

    Anyone remember how Comrade Stalin (inspiration for so many Third World dictators) had Russian history rewritten almost continuously for his own Glory? Stalinist history revisionism was SO over-the-top G.Orwell did a very nasty parody of it as a major theme of his book-length political cartoon, 1984.

    (Note: When he wrote 1984 in 1948, Orwell just took how Stalin actually ruled Russia and transferred it to a near-future England with a little additional SF technology and different (but obviously derived) buzzwords. EVERYTHING The Party did in 1984 was being done in 1948 Russia. Orwell did NOT have to make anything up.)

  240. Bridget wrote:

    @ Julie Anne:

    As for me, aftet reading up on the speakers and subjects, I’m glad I’m thousands of miles away from that group!

    I was surprised to read that Scott Brown would be there. What an interesting mix of topics/people.

  241. @ Julie Anne:
    Grace…..family………bible……………..church
    All 4 may be very good individually, no?
    Why do I feel sick seeing all 4 together?
    Am I right that Turk and Johnson are vehemently opposed to spiritual gifts (graces) being for today?
    And one of those defunct gifts is discernment?
    But they believe every good and perfect thing is a gift– by grace– from the Father of lights, right?
    And they believe in and practice lots and lots of *discernment*.
    So where do they get their *discernment*, I might ask, and is it good?

  242. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You DO know that Humanism began as a Christian movement in the late Middle Ages? It was a reaction against “worm theology” and Docetism of the time that emphasized the Spiritual(TM) and especially SIN to the point that the people in the Body of Christ (and all that comes with being human) were being ignored and denigrated. Humanism emphasized that people were important.

    Indeed HUG,
    I once argued in an ELCA (Lutheran) adult Sunday School class that Erasmus’ critique of Luther’s Bondage of the Will carried the day over Luther’s impetuous Jihadist style in several places. Needless to say, it went over like a fart at the communion rail.

  243. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    Not sure why this in,particular reminded me, but I saw a movie about Stalin’s movie-projectionist.
    MP to wife: Who do you love more, darlink, me or Comrade Shtaleen?
    Wife: Why, Comrade Shtaleen, of course, darlink!

  244. @ Julie Anne:I would far prefer to just do a glam blogger seminar. “Adorable and to the point” is my motto.

    So, how does this work? Discernment is good unless you discern something that upsets me then it is bad? I have got to be frank. They sound as if they do not know what they are talking about!

    I have been wondering…can you imagine the conversations at TGC? “Do you know what blog he was talking about?” Then they start whispering and looking for it on line. Then, there will be a little gathering in the corner of the room made up of those folks we discussed. They might even have T-shirts “We survived discernment blogging”

  245. I haven’t read all these posts sonthis may have mentioned before, but, although this is fascinating like gazing at a cobra,, howbdoes it affect normal people? Many years ago I stumbled onto his website and had kind of jaw dropping experience, due to his paranoia and manipulation. Sorry for his followers but they, as all, get payoffs for their devotion and it will take a light bulb moment for them to see the light

  246. @ dee:

    I find it amusing (if a bit sad) that we have Tim Challies rsnting about and refusing to listen to what he calls “discernment bloggers” one week and the following week we see a Discernment Seminar being advertised by folks who are of the same vein theologically and in TGC along with Challies’ church. (shaking head now)

  247. Bridget wrote:

    I find it amusing (if a bit sad) that we have Tim Challies rsnting about and refusing to listen to what he calls “discernment bloggers” one week and the following week we see a Discernment Seminar being advertised by folks who are of the same vein theologically and in TGC along with Challies’ church. (shaking head now)

    Getting rid of the competition?

  248. Eagle wrote:

    can’t remember where or how I read it, but at some Neo-Cal website they were talking about the death of Adolf Hitler. It was to make a theological point. Anyhow, they said that he died at his Mountain Retreat “Kehlsteinhaus” (To the west it was known as The Eagle’s Nest). I was stunned when I read that becuase it was historically off. Hitler died in his bunker in Berlin shortly after marrying Eva Braun att he end of April in 1945.

    I have not read Challies book on Discernment but I think I recall that he is the one that wrote that in his book and it was one of the early criticisms of it. I mean, it is pretty bad when you get something that well known so very wrong. it does not take much discernment to check facts. :o)

  249. @ Lola:

    I had heard the “danger” temperature cutoff as 96.8, not 97.8 and my family has been dealing with thyroid issues for 20 years. My body temp tends to sit in the mid 97s and I have no symptoms of thyroid malfunction/underperformance either.

    My mom’s go-to book for thyroid stuff is The Thyroid Sourcebook. And sorry everyone here seems to have had such bad experiences with endocrinologists – my dad’s longtime endocrinologist was awesome but sadly she just left the area…

  250. Muff Potter wrote:

    You DO know that Humanism began as a Christian movement in the late Middle Ages? It was a reaction against “worm theology” and Docetism of the time that emphasized the Spiritual(TM) and especially SIN to the point that the people in the Body of Christ (and all that comes with being human) were being ignored and denigrated. Humanism emphasized that people were important.
    Indeed HUG,
    I once argued in an ELCA (Lutheran) adult Sunday School class that Erasmus’ critique of Luther’s Bondage of the Will carried the day over Luther’s impetuous Jihadist style in several places.

    Great stuff, guys. If there is one thing I am noticing in the current YRR movement is this laser like need to dehumanize people. When these sorts of things are brought up they almost always resort to example the French Revolution to show how any sort of humanism turns out. So they take an “overcorrection” and make it the poster for humanism forgetting the reaction to the Divine right of kings and state church which in France was just as bad and corrupt. They also forget Napoleon was in power not that long after the Revolution. (taking a big pic view)

    This is an area I would love to dive into more especially the historical aspect as HUG mentioned.

  251. Dave A A wrote:

    Grace…..family………bible……………..church
    All 4 may be very good individually, no?
    Why do I feel sick seeing all 4 together?
    Am I right that Turk and Johnson are vehemently opposed to spiritual gifts (graces) being for today?
    And one of those defunct gifts is discernment?
    But they believe every good and perfect thing is a gift– by grace– from the Father of lights, right?
    And they believe in and practice lots and lots of *discernment*.
    So where do they get their *discernment*, I might ask, and is it good?

    I used to read Pyro a lot and they are mainly cessationists. What I think that means is the specially anointed guy with a title will tell you what you can discern or not and when and if the Holy Spirit is guiding you or not. :o)

  252. “lack of responsiveness to sexual advances”

    I just re-read the actual post because my mom wanted to hear about the dishes…and as I read the line above this is what popped into my mind. A husband, pouting and whining like a toddler, on the phone with his pastor, stomping his foot in frustration: “PASTOR JONES, SHE WON’T HAVE SEX WITH ME! MAKE HER HAVE SEX WITH ME!”

    It’s just the sick, twisted, adult version of a tempter tantrum. With God frosting.

  253. Ranting about “humanism” has been going on since the 1970s – Patrice referred to that upthread, as did I.

    It looks like both of us encountered it early on, via the writing of Francis Schaeffer, Os Guinness and Hans Rookmaaker.

    At the time, I wondered about many things that all three of them wrote, but didn’t yet know enough (or trust myself enough) to feel comfortable voicing a dissenting opinion – especially not while staying at Swiss L’Abri! (I had just turned 21 a few months prior to my time there…)

  254. @ numo: I also heard a lot of “humanism is bad” carrying on from discipleship movement/dominionist types in the 70s, 80s and 90s.

    They’re still at it, fwiw… although by the late 70s-early 80s, the discipleship/dominionist types were calling it “secular humanism.”

    the odd thing is that they seemed to know just about zero re. actual Renaissance (and post-Renaissance) humanism. If they had, their arguments would have been blown to shreds.

  255. @ Eagle: Have you ever seen the movie “Brassed Off!”?

    If not, I highly recommend it – it’s about a colliery brass band competition during the Thatcher era… although the band keeps going in spite of the fact that the mine had closed and that nobody in the town has a job anymore.

  256. @ Eagle: In a lot of ways, what happened in the mining/other industrial parts of England during Thatcher’s time reminds me a *lot* of what happened during the same time period here in my home state (PA) per steel and coal towns.

    They were company towns and nobody had a job anymore. *Very* disturbing and painful times.

  257. HoppyTheToad wrote:

    I wonder, do these “depression is always a sin” types believe that soldiers coming back from combat can have PTSD? So many American Christians seem to glorify war. I wonder if the same people are judgmental of the problems their “beloved” soldiers return home with.

    Thanks Hoppy,

    Just a guess, but if the beloved soldier is a Christian probably cannot have PTSD according to these nut jobs.

  258. HoppyTheToad wrote:

    I wonder, do these “depression is always a sin” types believe that soldiers coming back from combat can have PTSD? So many American Christians seem to glorify war. I wonder if the same people are judgmental of the problems their “beloved” soldiers return home with.

    Hoppy, I’ve honestly heard some evangelicals muse that combat/trauma-related PTSD is the result of being exposed to demonic forces overseas. No kidding.

    If I’m trying to be gracious I’d just say that most people have little understanding (and that in itself is understandable) about the dysfunctional response of a brain that short circuits one’s ability to process trauma that is the root of PTSD.

    Also, regarding the Rah-Rah-Go-USA-We-Love-The-Troops-You’re-Heroes rallies/sentiments: while well-meaning (and appreciated by many, I’m not condeming it!) I would gently note that for those with PTSD and survivor’s guilt, such celebrations can exacerbate things quite a bit.

  259. @ Anon 1:

    Eagle and Anon: are you serious?!

    Someone (perhaps Challies) didn’t know the historical facts surrounding Hitler’s suicide in the bunker?

    And it got by an editor?

    Links please! I’m not doubting either of you but that is just … astoundingly ignorant!

  260. dee wrote:

    They might even have T-shirts “We survived discernment blogging”

    Yes, in addition to that, they can blogroll with Chuck O’Neal and that other mystery blog that is against me. Jezzy Belle blogger is such a threat. Ouch.

  261. Dave A A wrote:

    Grace…..family………bible……………..church
    All 4 may be very good individually, no?
    Why do I feel sick seeing all 4 together?
    Am I right that Turk and Johnson are vehemently opposed to spiritual gifts (graces) being for today?

    Hmm, my former church was ______ Grace Bible Church – – 3 out of the 4
    Let’s see and there’s Sovereign “Grace.” That seems to be something to look for.

    You are correct that they (Turk/Johnson) are definitely against any kind of charismatic gifts.

  262. numo wrote:

    the odd thing is that they seemed to know just about zero re. actual Renaissance (and post-Renaissance) humanism. If they had, their arguments would have been blown to shreds.

    I find it hilarious that a pastor at the local IFB will have a diatribe against humanism, then raise up his KJV bible to declare that it’s only the word of God you can depend on. Ummm…does he not realize that Erasmus, a key figure of humanism during the renaissance, gathered and published the Greek texts that are currently used for the KJV? It seems to me that they are just spouting the party lines and aren’t doing any research into what they are saying!

  263. Daisy wrote:

    I’d tell him, “Great, if you ever have a heart attack, git bit by a rattle snake, or get hit by a car while I’m watching, I won’t call those secular 911 emergency guys. I’ll just pray that the Lord heal you on the spot and hope he decides to heal you supernaturally.”

    What a great comment! It is so sad that so many so-called ‘Christians’ have so little empathy and refuse to acknowledge mental illness as a medical condition and instead see it as some sort of self-imposed behavior.

  264. Eagle wrote:

    The glaring historical error is on page 12 of his introduction

    I can’t highlight and paste as Google Book won’t let me so let me type it quickly….

    What got me was that the British and Americans are said to be armies, but it’s “hordes” of Russian soldiers! Wonder if Attila was leading them!

  265. I haven’t read any new posts since I was last on here, but I got to thinking about the dirty dish issue.

    Most men (certainly not all, my dad is a neat freak), have indicated in marriage seminars I’ve watched on television, or read about online, that they aren’t bothered by dirt.

    I had female roomies before who were total slobs, by the way, so there are exceptions to both sides of this.

    Anyway, on these marriage seminar shows, these men say their wives have to nag them to take the trash out (this is true for my sister and her long time boyfriend), or I hear on these shows that the wives have to nag their hubby to pick the dirty underwear off the carpet and toss it into the hamper.

    The general consensus in our culture (American) is that (most) men are slobs and (most) women are neat freaks.

    If these gender complementarian guys are so bound and determined to stick with strict gender roles (stereotypes), wouldn’t that mean that Doug Wilson should not even notice, let alone be bothered by, a stack of dirty dishes in the sink? %)

    It might be funny to mail Wilson some bottles of Joy or Ivory liquid dish washing soap, maybe with a pair of those yellow, rubber dish washing gloves, with a scrub brush, and make sure it’s addressed to him, not his wife. 🙂 If he’s one of those Grinch-type pastors, he might not have a sense of humor about it, though.

  266. @ Eagle:

    I’m a history nerd too, though I went to grad school for French instead! Most of my read are either historical fiction or histories. My current read is Former People by Douglas Smith – about the Russian aristocracy after the 1917 Revolution. Very interesting!

  267. @ Eagle:

    I’m assuming you mean the part about the “mountain fortress”? Granted, I’ve never been to Berlin, but I was under the impression that it was rather flat. Not really any mountain fortresses there! 🙂

  268. Anon 1 wrote:

    The most prized attributes are “being nice” and of course others get to define what is nice. You see a lot of this sort of thinking in churches where everyone pastes on their plastic smiles because the best Christians exhibit “joy” (their definition of joy) which is always outward behavior.

    It’s especially ingrained in females, from a young age, in secular and Christian culture. (It’s called codependency, and it creates a lot of problems for a female as she gets older.)

  269. @ Hester:

    I’ve only just glanced at the first part of your post so far (“The Blessed Marriage”), but I hope you addressed the fallacy of people having a “gift of celibacy” that Phillips mentioned in your quote.

    There’s a classification of Christians who are not addressed by Christians, and I don’t think the Bible does either, not really, which is: Christians who desire marriage, but for whom it did not happen (or may never happen).

    I fall into that group, and I don’t believe I have a “gift of celibacy (or a “gift of singleness”),” or that it should be thought of as such.

    God does not take away any and all sexual desire, or desire for a spouse, from all, or I’d say even most, people in their 40s who have never married.

    I cringe when I see Christians refer to marriage as “normative” or “God’s best” or the only “building block for society.”

    Despite Phillips’ qualifiers in passing, he’s still making it out to sound as though being single is somehow weird, not acceptable, or some other negative quality (by making marriage sound superior or more desirable).

  270. @ JeffT:
    If it is a head injury, place a small Bible on the head and pray that the healing power of the gospel will be made manifest in the pastor’s life, and if not, ask God to remove from the pastor the demon that is blocking his healing.

    If it is a broken bone, same treatment.

    If it is a stroke, same treatment.

    If it is a heart attack, that is different. A heart attack is clearly irrefutable evidence that his heart is demon possessed, and an exorcism is required. Need a bell, a candle and a Bible, as well as prayer and commanding the heart occupying demon to come out of him. If it does not, then his damaged heart will shorten both his life and that of the demon, and he should not be allowed to expose some innocent doctor or nurse to the demon.

    wink, wink.

  271. @ Gail:

    That iMonk blog is one I hardly visit. I sometimes just forget about it, since I hardly visit there, so I was not intentionally ignoring you at that blog.

    I’m so very sorry for the abuse you suffered, and that it was compounded by unfeeling, ignorant preachers.

    I’m also sorry to hear you’re still enduring some lingering problems.

    The thing that sets me off (for some reason) is the “comparison game” some Christians play, and you mentioned it in your post.

    You know, you tell a Christian, for example, that you have a painful paper cut, and they have to one-up it by telling you they once got an arm crushed by a falling piano, or, they will remind you of orphans in India or Africa, to suggest your pain means nothing next to theirs.

    I think what gets me more upset than a tragedy or problem happening to me is how other people, specifically, other Christians, react to it (or don’t react), and seeing how Christians do this to other hurting people.

    After going through a death in the family, (which broke my heart), I expected an abundance of support, affection, and attention from Christian friends and family… and got about none (or, from some, criticism, or lectures and reminders about orphans in India).

    This is something I’ve mentioned on this blog before, so I’ll not belabor it.

    Christians need to learn that offering hope and comfort to hurting people means listening to them talk- without lecturing, condemnation, comparing their pain to someone else’s, or giving solutions or advice…

    Not blaming the person for his / her situation, not trying to find reasons “why” the pain/ abuse happened (which usually gets into blaming the victim in some fashion).

    You mentioned bullies. I have never, ever liked bullies. I have despised them since childhood.

    While my mom taught me to be a passive doormat, she taught me to allow others to abuse me verbally or physically (which I usually did – I was taught that self defense was wrong), I almost always confronted bullies who I saw picking on other people, from the time I was a kid, and as an adult, even if the bully was physically bigger (or in a position of power over me). They always stopped.

    Bullies do not like being called out by a by stander.

    Heading For The Light

  272. Jeff S wrote:

    @ Daisy:
    suffering from depression does not take steps to address it.

    I want to say that even if a depressed person is sincerely trying to find a way out of depression, he or she may not be able to.

    Secular therapy and medications didn’t help me (but I don’t discourage others from using those or trying them).

    I did not enjoy being depressed, and nothing helped.

    I read the Bible. Prayed. Asked God for a healing. I read books about depression by Christians and Non Christian mental health professionals. I took psychology courses while a college student, some addressed depression. Tried taking my mind off things by serving, studying, etc. None of that worked.

    This is part of what leads some depressed people to commit suicide: they don’t see a way out of it. That and living with the deep, emotional pain day in and day out – you just get so tired of hurting all the time.

    I think I’m pretty much over depression.

    One key to my recovery: realizing my depression stemmed from codependency, and I was conditioned to be codependent by my mom (who came from an abusive family, which is why she was that way), and that I could chose to live differently if I wanted to.

    (Depression and suicide also run in both sides of my family, as does anxiety, but I think being socialized by mom to be a loving doormat played a big role in my depression).

    Ironically, and very sadly, I see codependency being upheld in a lot of general Christian teachings (‘be nice, agreeable, never show anger, never get your needs met – that would be selfish’) and especially in gender complementarianism teaching towards females, as being laudable or biblical, and it’s not.

  273. Leila wrote:

    The few times I shared with Christian friends how I was feeling, I got “Jesus is sufficient for all things.”

    Oh yes, that old canard. I got it as a depression sufferer, but also as a single lady who wanted to get married. It’s quoted so often by Christians in the face of life difficulties and heartaches that it’s become a cliche’. I have also come to detest Romans 8:28 for the same reason.

    In the book I mentioned above, “Why do Christians Shoot Their Wounded?,” the Christian author, who is a doctor, mentions the mis-use and abuse of the “Jesus is sufficient to meet all your needs” verse, and how it is often distorted by Christians, and why Christians need to stop assuming that verse a catch-all and end solution for any and all life’s problems or health problems.

  274. Daisy wrote:

    I want to say that even if a depressed person is sincerely trying to find a way out of depression, he or she may not be able to.

    I agree with this, and I agree because you say “sincerely trying to find a way out”- this shows a desire to get real healing. If this had been the attitude of my ex, I could have made it work. I wanted to support her and I wanted to walk beside her the whole way. The problem was that she didn’t want me beside her, but to carry her. And she liked the power that her depression diagnosis gave her over others. In some ways she wore it like a badge. That is not someone who is sincerely trying to find a way out 🙁

  275. Daisy wrote:

    Ironically, and very sadly, I see codependency being upheld in a lot of general Christian teachings (‘be nice, agreeable, never show anger, never get your needs met – that would be selfish’) and especially in gender complementarianism teaching towards females, as being laudable or biblical, and it’s not.

    Yes, this is spot on. This is the reason I basically will read no more Christian relationship material- it is too steeped in teaching codependency.

  276. Jeff S wrote:

    This is the reason I basically will read no more Christian relationship material- it is too steeped in teaching codependency.

    I totally agree with this but they have sold like hotcakes for years which is scary. I would see folks get the latest one. I came to call it “bullet point living”.

  277. @ Daisy:

    “preacher claiming that the downfall of society is due to what posture men take when relieving themselves”

    That’s funny because I once saw this used on a conservative website as an example of the alleged sissification/metrosexualization of Europe. They claimed it was considered uncouth in Sweden for a man to urinate standing (no idea if it’s true but that’s what they said). We all know what real red-blooded American men do, of course…

    I didn’t get into whether a “gift of celibacy” exists, but frankly Doug undercuts his own position anyway because he doesn’t actually acknowledge such a gift’s existence in his practical advice later in the lecture.

  278. @ Lynne T:

    One quote from the page you linked to was,

    The problem many Christian psychologists think is the problem really isn’t the problem…

    In my opinion and experience, one huge glaring problem among Christians who are ineffective at helping those who suffer with mental health problems is that they want to address religious/ theological/ sin issues, and not actually comfort the person, or help him/her confront the problem itself and resolve it.

    I’ve often found secular therapists (their their blogs and books) much more effective than their Christian counterparts.

    Most secular therapists (aside from the Freudian types) are simply interested in helping you fix your problem and in giving you relief.

    Your average Christian therapist (or layperson or pastor), however, usually wants to address what caused your problem, which they almost always assume is religious in nature

    (e.g., you have mental health problem ‘X’ because you must have unconfessed sin in your heart; you are refusing to forgive someone from your past; you never really accepted Christ as Savior; you are not fully trusting Christ; etc).

    I think this is also why I find Non-Christians easier to talk to when I’m hurting, angry, or depressed.

    Most of them won’t blame me or guilt me for having negative emotions or for having problems, won’t judge me, wont’ try to find a religious reason for my suffering, but just pat me on my hand and say, “I’m sorry.”

  279. Okay, Wartburg men (including Mr. Deb and Mr. Dee). I need your help for the next Big Box post.

    I’m listening to “The Wise Woman’s Guide to Blessing Her Husband’s Vision” and Doug Phillips makes some statements about men’s thought processes. I think it might be beneficial to get the male perspective on this, me being a single female. Here’s the quotes. Let me know if he’s even remotely on point. I think you’ll have fun with these.

    “There’s something you need to know about men. Women desperately need to be loved, and God commands the husband, ‘Love your wife.’ Men need to be reverenced. A man’s understanding of who he is, his mission, his ability to execute his responsibility to God, presupposes responsibility and authority within the context of the household. Where there is no reverence, he cannot be a man, and he knows that. He may not even articulate it, it may not come together, but in his spirit, if he is not honored as the head, the whole world falls apart. He becomes broken in his spirit and less manly…”

    “The faithfulness of a wife is part of God’s ordained tool for expanding the vision of the household and and the vision of the man. How many of our dear wives today are very, very good at critiquing and picking apart every single problem their husband has and think nothing of sharing that with the community and that is a reproach to their husbands. When a husband knows that his wife is critiquing, is criticizing before other men, it puts a dagger in the heart of a man and it twists it and the man wants to die. If a woman’s countenance is such that her countenance demonstrates that she is grieved, she is unhappy. She’s not happy with her husband, she’s not happy with her life. It’s like a dagger in the heart of a man that twists and turns and kills that man’s spirit because wherever he goes, his wife stands there as an ever-present example, ‘I am miserable. I am unhappy. He doesn’t make me happy.’ You might as well just take the sword and lop off his head.”

  280. @ Jeannette Altes:

    Those kinds of preachers are absolute idiots and have no idea what they’re talking about.

    I was perhaps one of the world’s biggest goody-goody Christians, and I used to read my Bible regularly, but it didn’t make my depression stop.

  281. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    I didn’t have SAD, but used to live in Ohio, where the skies are cloudy and over cast about 99% of the time, and I do think (for me anyhow) gloomy weather can contribute to an already-existing depression condition.

    I later moved back down south, where the skies are actually blue (in northern US states, the sky is a very washed out blah grey, and the sun hardly ever comes out).

    Now that I’m coming out of a lifelong depression, I actually prefer gloomy days. I like rainy days better than sunny ones. I don’t know why why that is exactly. 🙂

  282. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    SECULAR writers and artists and moviemakers. Henceforth secular arts would begin to say what God wanted said.

    I do think God sometimes can and does talk to Christians outside of the Bible. I do think people should ultimately go to Scriptures as the final judge of all things, but as long as what you were told personally by God doesn’t contradict the written word, I don’t see the harm in it.

    This does not mean I have always uncritically accepted all private revelations from Christians who claim they heard from God.

    Anyway, about your media comment. Most Christian entertainment is cheese.

    The production values, acting, story lines, are more often than not embarrassingly cheesey, second rate, and heavy handed.

    Particularly annoying to me personally are the Christian films where a Christian character has to stop the story to give a “sermonette” of sorts. It’s so force, out of place to have a character stop the regular flow of the narrative or action to start explaining the Gospel message or quote Bible verses at another character.

    Ironically, most Christian entertainment for kids (even if the quality is cheese) is more bearable to watch because it’s so innocent… they’re not trying to make any grand statements about life and death or morality, but addressing very basic concepts.

  283. No More Perfect wrote:

    just where in Texas I live, though I confess I have no great love for this state

    Oh no! Bite your tongue! LOL. 🙂

    (I miss Texas. I lived by the Gulf Coast area of the state.)

  284. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And while they’re working on their weight (under their Penetrating Colonizing Conquering Planting Christian Hubby), how about working on enlarging their boobs, too?

    Because I’m busy trying to grow my hair long and sexy the way all men, especially Christian men, like it, so I can attract one and get married.

    I can only work on one thing at a time!

    (So yes, my dirty dishes are being neglected.)

  285. @ Gail:

    I’m sorry all that happened to you, the part under your trigger warning.

    A lot of what you wrote (with some minor variations on some details) is what my mother went through in her childhood.

    Oh and yes, that’s something else, what you mentioned – some Christians with mental health problems are told that because they are a “new creation in Christ” that means they should not have any problems from their past.

    So a lot of them try to suppress and ignore childhood trauma / pain.

    I never had that happen to me personally, that particular cliche, but I did read about it in the Carlson book “Why Do Christians Shoot Their Wounded.”

    He explains that being a ‘new creation in Christ’ doesn’t automatically erase pain from the past, or remove consequences from past experiences.

  286. @ Hester:
    Well, there’s a lot to say about all of this.

    First off- I was absolutely reverenced in my marriage. I mean, she essentially worshiped the ground I walked on, and I believe it to this day. She thought I was the most spiritual Christian, the greatest man, the best singer, the most amazing songwriter, and the most talented guitar player to ever walk the face of the earth.

    The problem is, I am none of those things, and I lived for years in desparate fear she’d figure it all out. It was exhausting. And then one day I realized that it was all an image, and that I didn’t have to keep up the pretense. I think if I’d wanted to, I probably could have slept around, stopped going to church, and become a drug addict, and her opinion of me wouldn’t have changed. She always saw me as that knight in shining armor. And to have affection for that man was not affection for me. She had reverence in spades- she would never dare say an ill word against me in public- but it was hollow. Her actions were not loving, as much as she revered me.

    And you know, there’s a part of this where he’s right. I LOVED it at first. I mean, what guy doesn’t want to be Lancelot rushing in to save the princess and cure all of her demons? Yes, men love to be saviors of women (I suspect many women love to be saviors of men, too) and I fell into that trap. But once I figured out it was all fake and false, the bottom dropped out. When I really needed her to be there and support the real me, not just the image, she wanted no part of it. In fact, anything that challenged the fairy tail sent her into a tailspin that wounded a lot of people.

    No, I am a man and I need to be loved. I DO want to be looked upon highly and built up (I don’t think “reverenced” is the right word), but without love- well, there’s no point. It’s just hot air at that point.

    And yes, public criticism is damaging. Of course it is. Wouldn’t it be to a woman whose husband criticized her in public? In fact, done a lot and without apology, we call that emotional abuse. Now this is different than saying a spouse can never be unhappy in public- that’s part of just being real. But no one wants a spouse to run them down constantly. I have a feeling that Phillips does not extend his protection of being publicly run down to women, though.

  287. @ Lola:

    Erasmus (who is behind theTextus Receptus) was also a Roman Catholic, if I recall correctly, and many AV (KJV) Onlyists have a rabid hatred of Catholicism, and claim that modern “per”versions have been tainted by Catholicism.

  288. @ Eagle:

    That was a good article (“My Take: How churches can respond to mental illness“), but I’m afraid it and the death of Rick Warren’s son, via depression/suicide, won’t shake American Christians out of their denial, prejudices, or ignorance about the mentally ill.

    I also hold out no hope that churches will learn to show real compassion for Christians who are grieving or for the unmarried who wish to be married.

    Churches and preachers run around crying and wondering why church attendance is down, and the reasons are staring them right in their faces, they’ve been told repeatedly how to stop the decline, but they don’t want to hear it or change.

  289. @ Jeff S:

    That’s a very tricky area for me to address.

    Sometimes depressed people do have to lean on someone else quite a bit. I don’t know if it would be accurate to say they have a choice in the matter.

    Is it possible some people are exaggerating about their depression and milking it for sympathy? I guess so. But I don’t think that’s true of most.

    I leaned on my parents (my mom especially) a lot.

    In my case though, there was a lot of codependency going on too, which adds another layer of issues for my particular situation, which my not be true of your ex wife.

  290. @ Anon 1:

    I think the dating / marriage books (and the “how to live life / be successful” books) and advice columns are largely a waste of time.

  291. @ Daisy:
    You are 100% different from my ex wife. I do not think poorly at all of depressed people or that the majority are milking it for sympathy. In fact, my time visiting and trying to support her in the institution had me meet a lot of people who were survivors making their lives work. My heart goes out to them because I know it is hard. In fact, my heart goes out to my ex. I’m really not angry with her, just very sad.

    I completely understand that depressed folks have to lean on others. The problem is when it’s more than just leaning. As an example, after she left the institution, my ex was supposed to attend two meetings a week. I found them and figured which ones would work for her schedule and then drove her there. My therapist said I shouldn’t do this. That I should drive her if she asks and try to work my schedule out to support what she was doing, but she needed to own finding and getting the schedule organized. So I dropped back and she immediately stopped going to the meetings.

    And I think her problem goes beyond depression anyway (I have my suspicions, but I’m not going to voice them on a public forum). Though I will say codependency was also a factor for her- I think it’s a huge part of any relationship that involves depression. That’s why they talked about it so much at the institution.

    Anyway, I fear I’m talking too much about this because when I don’t go into specifics I know I can come off sounding like an unsupportive husband, but I just don’t think it’s right to talk about those details publicly.

  292. @ Hester:

    I know you were looking for male input, but I wanted to chip in a little to say in my parent’s marriage, it was the opposite from the quote you gave, of the wife who criticizes her husband all day.

    My dad did a wonderful job caring for mom in her last months of life (and I helped with care taking), but dad could be a very, very critical guy. He would nit pick and criticize Mom (and my siblings and me).

    I also don’t understand why the gender comps pressure wives to “respect” their husbands.

    You’re basically telling men their ego or self image should rely on how their wives treat them (shades again of codependency).

    It should only matter to you how God views you and how you view yourself (and this is the healthiest approach). You should not base your well-being or self esteem on how others perceive you, whether they respect you or not, etc.

    If you’re a man who demands his wife respect him, you are giving her power and control over you.

    What if the wife decides not to respect you (the husband)? You can call the church elders to your house all day long to tattle on the wife, and she can blow them off too.

    You cannot change people, you can only change how you react to them.

  293. @ Jeff S:

    I understand if you don’t want to go into too much detail.

    Another thing with codependency (for me), is that I didn’t even realize I had choices.

    I was under the impression that to be a good Christian daughter to my Mom, to honor her, I had to clear all decisions with her first – at times she found this a bit annoying, but overall, I think she enjoyed that I went to her constantly for life guidance.

    I was not encouraged to make my own decisions or be my own person. I did not realize I even could.

    None of the psychologists or psychiatrists I ever saw for my depression ever diagnosed with me the codependency, which bothers me in hindsight.

    I tried explaining all this to my older sister a few months ago, but she reads it as me placing blame on mom and dad for my problems and not taking personal responsibility, which is not what I was trying to do.

    My sister wears rose color glasses with dad and refused to see him as anything as less than ‘Perfect Dad.’ I don’t know why she cannot or will not accept that Mom and Dad did indeed influence my problems.

    My point is that for some people with codependency, they get blamed for making wrong choices and stuff, but sometimes it is truly not their fault because they did not even realize they could make choices to start with, but thought they had to defer to every one around them, if they wanted to be a good Christian or be selfless.

    It’s kind of the same concept with people accusing depressed people of “being lazy,” as though they are deliberating choosing to sleep all day, or be unable to hold a job, etc.

  294. Daisy wrote:

    That iMonk blog is one I hardly visit. I sometimes just forget about it, since I hardly visit there, so I was not intentionally ignoring you at that blog.

    Daisy- I understood that you were not intentionally ignoring me… People move on for whatever reasons…

    Yes, I looked for your comments after you responded to my confusion & hurt…
    There isn’t a lot of feedback over at I.M. so I was impacted that you took the time to be respond with compassion…

    And yes & amen to your icky reaction to how some respond to our stories. It is sad & loss imho.

    It can be such a shame not to enter & be with the person that is pouring their heart out… It diminishes both the teller & the one who listens.

    If I learned anything from my encounter- it was to never to ask a hurting soul to compare their pain/abuse to another, that doesn’t help anyone.

  295. Daisy wrote:

    I didn’t have SAD, but used to live in Ohio, where the skies are cloudy and over cast about 99% of the time

    Glad to hear your depression is lifting, Daisy. Living in Scotland, I’ve come to suspect that the weather gets me down not so much when it doesn’t stop raining, as when it just doesn’t change for days on end.

  296. Jeff S wrote:

    I do not think poorly at all of depressed people or that the majority are milking it for sympathy.

    Agreed, Jeff. If anything, the fact that someone is milking their put-upon and unfortunate state for sympathy (and they do exist!) is a strong indicator that they don’t have depression.

  297. @ Hester:

    Like a lot of drivel, the drivel in those quotes sneaks in behind a significant grain of truth, I think.

    Obviously, a nagging, critical, belittling wife will over time destroy her husband emotionally if he doesn’t take comprehensive steps to defend himself emotionally. That’s no different, I presume, from the effect on a wife of constant criticism from her husband.

    I don’t doubt that, broadly, men and women are different psychologically as well as physiologically (there is ample evidence, for instance, of subtle neurological differences between male and female brains; and this must have an effect on temperament and personality). But not all men are the same, and not all women are the same. Men do need to be respected; but maybe that’s not a male need as such – maybe it’s just an adult need.

    …if he is not honored as the head, the whole world falls apart. He becomes broken in his spirit and less manly

    As the late Margaret Thatcher once said: if you have to say you’re strong, you’re not. The above quote speaks of a rather confused, immature and insecure man. It also perhaps describes the attitude of some “strong” leaders who, like Diotrephes, “love to be first”, and require obsequious submission [sic] from everyone in “their” churches, including their fellow-elders. If they’re not honoured as the head of the church, their world falls apart.

  298. @ Daisy:

    Ah yes, that’s my next favorite sermon moment: the anti-catholic rant about how they (and I was raised catholic and my entire family is still catholic, so this really gets my goat!) don’t even read their own scriptures and the catholic church does not encourage it, but a good christian reads their entire bible (of course, picking and choosing which parts to follow from the OT), not even realizing that the Textus was compiled by…..a Catholic!!!!!

  299. @ Nick Bulbeck: I think the longing to be respected and appreciated is a universal human need.

    So many people are completely ignored by those around them, including those who should be caring and loving toward them… from childhood onward.

    Or, as Aretha said, “R-E-S-P-E-C-T – find out what it means to me!”

  300. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    But not all men are the same, and not all women are the same. Men do need to be respected; but maybe that’s not a male need as such – maybe it’s just an adult need.

    I think respect is a human need. Children and teens want (and deserve) respect.

    Childism is a real thing, and unfortunately was rampant in the circles I grew up in… As well as forced or coerced perpetual adolescence. I was not treated as an adult worthy of respect until I earned my “Mrs.”, this despite the fact that I was a full grown human being who supported herself independently… It’s incredibly dehumanizing to have someone smile patronizingly at you and give you a verbal “pat on the head”, when you express a desire to make your own decisions about your own life.

  301. Eagle wrote:

    Watch Downfall. It’s all in German..

    Ah, “Downfall” (Der Untergang) with the always-brilliant Bruno Ganz (the actor who portrays Hitler).

    I’m a Wim Wenders superfan 🙂 going way back to the 80s and it was in “Wings of Desire” that I first saw Ganz.

    “Downfall” was the subject of serious debate in Germany when it was released – Ganz’s acting was superb but people were uneasy (to put it lightly) with any “humanizing” depiction of Hitler.

  302. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    If anything, the fact that someone is milking their put-upon and unfortunate state for sympathy (and they do exist!) is a strong indicator that they don’t have depression.

    I agree with this statement strongly.

    When outward-focused manipulation of others becomes the primary behaviour, i.e. “milking”, then I believe it is a narcissistic personality disorder, with depression perhaps a secondary symptom, which is an altogether different beast.

  303. Rafiki wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    If anything, the fact that someone is milking their put-upon and unfortunate state for sympathy (and they do exist!) is a strong indicator that they don’t have depression.
    I agree with this statement strongly.
    When outward-focused manipulation of others becomes the primary behaviour, i.e. “milking”, then I believe it is a narcissistic personality disorder, with depression perhaps a secondary symptom, which is an altogether different beast.

    Yes. I may not go as far as specifically identifying NPD, but there’s definitely something deeper.

    And this is the thrust of what I’ve been trying to say, although probably badly. Depressed people want to get better- they do not want to hurt those they love. And they cannot do it alone- they need a great deal of support around them.

    But there are some with deeper issues who don’t want to get better- they want others to fix their problems and serve them.

  304. Lola wrote:

    Ah yes, that’s my next favorite sermon moment: the anti-catholic rant about how they (and I was raised catholic and my entire family is still catholic, so this really gets my goat!) don’t even read their own scriptures and the catholic church does not encourage it, but a good christian reads their entire bible (of course, picking and choosing which parts to follow from the OT), not even realizing that the Textus was compiled by…..a Catholic!!!!!

    The only reason these Born-Again Bible-Believers (TM) HAVE a Bible to Believe In is the bishops of MY church prevented all the Shirley MacLaines of the time from rewriting it in their own image back when years AD were in the low three digits.

    Chesterton had a thought-experiment where a religious procession was coming down the street — vestments, bells, incense, some carrying sacramental and symbols, some carrying relics, some holding aloft a Holy Book. Then he postulated (from memory) “would not the Atheist reaction to it — “This is all bunk!” — be more honest than running in, grabbing the Holy Book out of the one priest’s hands, holding it up and announcing “THIS IS THE WORD OF GOD!” then denouncing all the rest as Satanic in the name of that Word of God”?

  305. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    As the late Margaret Thatcher once said: if you have to say you’re strong, you’re not.

    op cit various Third World dictators trying to build their own Bomb:

    “WE HAVE NUKES! WE ARE STRONG!”

  306. Daisy wrote:

    Particularly annoying to me personally are the Christian films where a Christian character has to stop the story to give a “sermonette” of sorts. It’s so force, out of place to have a character stop the regular flow of the narrative or action to start explaining the Gospel message or quote Bible verses at another character.

    Yeah. It’s the worst sort of Breaking the Fourth Wall — Breaking the Fourth Wall to preach to the viewer/reader. AKA “The Captain Planet Lecture”. AKA John Galt’s chapter in Atlas Shrugged preaching Objectivism for 20-30 pages in one run-on sentence.

    “Wheel of Morality, turn, turn turn,
    Tell us the Lesson that We Must Learn…”
    — Animaniacs

    And regarding secular media now saying what God wants said… I have been involved in My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic fandom for the past two years, primarily interested in the secondary derivative works of the fandom — fanart, fan-made comics, original music, and fanfics. And I have encountered My Little Pony fanfics with more Gospel and spiritual truth in them than anything you’ll find on a Christianese best-seller list. Mene, Mene, Tekel, Uparshin…

  307. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    AKA John Galt’s chapter in Atlas Shrugged preaching Objectivism for 20-30 pages in one run-on sentence.

    The lecture was 100 pages in my paperback . . .

    This is why I laugh when people tell me its great literature. It may be a lot of things, but a 100 page monologue can hardly be excused.

  308. Hester wrote:

    “Blessing Her Husband’s Vision”

    A thought on the title. Notice how they always want the wife to support, help, affirm bless etc. her husband’s ‘whatever’ (masculinity, leadership, ministry, vision) rather than blessing a HIM as a person? They call a wife to bless a wish-dream, a concept, an ideal, a movement etc which PERTAINS to her husband– not the man himself. He’s dehumanized. He’s irrelevant, really. It’s all about the “vision” (forum). If the poor guy’s spiritual leader determines that he’s not fulfilling his roles properly, the wife may be encouraged by Pastor to divorce him.

  309. Jeff S wrote:

    The lecture was 100 pages in my paperback . . .

    OK. I knew it was long, but that sounds worse than I thought.

    And there’s a reason why it resembles Bad Christian Fic. Atlas Shrugged IS “Scripture(TM)” for Objectivists. I even heard it quoted chapter-and-verse as Fulfilled Prophecy when the housing bubble popped and Wall Street started lining up for Too-Big-To-Fail bailouts. Chapter and Verse.

    And when you analyze it, both Atlas Shrugged and Left Behind are actually the same core story, pitched and fanservicing different audiences. An Apocalyptic Escape Fantasy (raptured to Heaven or spirited away to Galt’s Gulch to ride out the Apocalypse) followed by a Revenge Fantasy (the Apocalypse itself, once the Leaven of the Righteous has left) ending in a Wish Fulfillment (where the Righteous — those Just Like You, Dear Reader — return to inherit their Kingdom Which Has No End).

  310. Dave A A wrote:

    They call a wife to bless a wish-dream, a concept, an ideal, a movement etc which PERTAINS to her husband– not the man himself. He’s dehumanized. He’s irrelevant, really. It’s all about the “vision” (forum). If the poor guy’s spiritual leader determines that he’s not fulfilling his roles properly, the wife may be encouraged by Pastor to divorce him.

    Ever heard of the phrase “Our Duty to The Party”?

  311. HUG, I have a friend whose husband had mental issues (garbage hoarder,) and he was not working. The pastor of their reformed church encouraged the wife to not provide the husband with food and a roof if he wasn’t going to work. The man left. Lived under the board walk, but neither of them filed for divorce for about 3 years. They wanted it to work, just didn’t understand the mental health issues ( the husband is a very bright man, wife, too.). They didn’t know what to do, so the wife obeyed the pastor. It’s so sad! They are divorced today and both painfully broken!

  312. Gail wrote:

    Yes, I looked for your comments after you responded to my confusion & hurt…
    There isn’t a lot of feedback over at I.M. so I was impacted that you took the time to be respond with compassion…

    It seems to be a popular blog and even though it gets a lot of comments, there doesn’t seem to be too much back and forth exchange.

    I don’t know. I try not to spread myself too thin by getting heavily involved in too many blogs or forums. I find one or two and post at those.

    YOu said,

    If I learned anything from my encounter- it was to never to ask a hurting soul to compare their pain/abuse to another, that doesn’t help anyone.

    That is very true.

    I do see some value in the philosophy of “count your blessings” and “other people have it worse than you” but when you’re in the middle of a heartache, those sorts of views can be more hurtful than helpful, more often than not. I wish more Christians would understand that.

  313. @ Nick Bulbeck:

    It’s kind of funny and contradictory that the gender complementarians are basically telling men that their value or their manliness/manhood is dependent on women, or how women treat them. It takes a woman to make a man feel like a man, or to be a man seems to be their under-girding assumption.

    I’d like to be married and have a husband, but I don’t feel that I need one to be a woman or feel like one, or whatever.

    Strange the gender complementarians are teaching men opposite things concerning gender.

  314. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    And I have encountered My Little Pony fanfics with more Gospel and spiritual truth in them than anything you’ll find on a Christianese best-seller list.

    I have seen similar things in secular books, films, and television shows I watch.

    I do believe that many Non Christians in Hollywood hold values or beliefs that flat out contradict what the Bible teaches (and some intentionally insert anti-Christian views into their entertainment, which I find annoying), but, on some occasions, Non-Christians actually produce content that (unwittingly) supports, or illuminates, values that are also Christian – and usually better than Christian film makers / authors do.

    I don’t mean to knock all Christian entertainment, by the way. I have seen the occasional Christian- made cartoon, movie, or program that is quality, but I’d say most of it is low-quality cheese, or heavy handed.

  315. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    Post Script: I don’t mean to condemn this as being wrong, it’s only a pet peeve of mine: how Christians think they have to have a “Christian equivalent” to everything. And it’s usually ten years after the secular trend, to make it even more annoying.

    For example, over five years ago, Harry Potter books and movies were popular.

    I saw a Christian author interviewed on television a few months ago. She’s just written a book for teenagers, similar to Harry Potter (containing dragons and other fantasy elements).

    Her goal is to use these fantasy books to reach teenagers who are into wicca and so on.

    I’m sure the author’s heart is in the right place, but I wince when I see and hear of Christians doing this, pandering to Non Christians in this way.

    I’ve seen this time and again in Christian TV shows for children.

    Several of the cartoon programs on one Christian network are watered- down, poor man’s copies of the secular kid’s movies made by Disney.

    The Christians first began copying the animated films made popular by Disney in the 1990s, even down to the formula of having one character break out into song, usually with an animal side kick.

    Later, after CG kid entertainment became popular, with Pixar making a CG movie about talking cars, some Christian company made a TV show about CG talking cars, only their show had the cars teaching morality lessons. It is so cheesy.

    Why don’t Christians make their own shows instead of producing ten year old copies of secular ones?

  316. @ Daisy:

    Have you seen “The Croods”?

    It was very humorous and visually stunning.

    But what impressed me the most was the basic plot of a father’s love, strength, and self-sacrifice for the family he adored.

    I never saw “Courageous” except for the creepy father-daughter dinner date where the father asks his daughter for her heart.

    “The Croods” was far more satisfying and uplifting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBdiFU6DgpE

  317. @ Mara:

    No, I’ve not seen of it, but I will watch the video. 🙂

    I’ve not seen ‘Courageous,’ but I read a review of it on CBE’s site, and the review mentioned the skin-crawling “daddy daughter” dinner date scene.

    The only way I’d watch the Courageous movie is if it comes on TBN. I’d only watch for the rubber necking aspect of it, the same way you’re horrified by car accidents but morbid curiosity causes you to turn and look.

    A tiny bit off topic, but, for some reason, the TBN Christian channel has been running repeats of the movie “Fireproof” this week.

    Valentine’s Day was 2 – 3 months ago, and I don’t know of any holidays with romantic overtones this month. I don’t know why they are running repeats of a movie about a man trying to save his faltering marriage.

  318. Eagle wrote:

    DEE!!! You and Deb still need to look into Neo-Calvinism being cranked out of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Deerfield, IL. Its the missing component and contributes to the problems and is linked to SBTS, SEBTS. It’s linked by TGC and is where TGC. That’s where D.A. Carson reigns.

    You guys can’t ignore that facet. A lot of people don’t know this except for those who have a background in the Evangelical Free Church and have watched their denomination be hijacked.

    Is that where the Calvinism came from? About 13 years ago, my husband and I started going to an E-Free church, thinking it was wonderful, allowing for differences in theology as long as you hold to the basic statements of faith. Then the Calvinism crept in. We left in 2004. I couldn’t find Calvinist doctrines in the statements of faith, so it felt like a bait-and-switch. Then I read some of the versions of a revision of those statements, in the mid-00’s; sure enough, there was Calvinism in there.

  319. Daisy wrote:

    I don’t know of any holidays with romantic overtones this month.

    There’s one – Lesley’s got the day off on Monday (when the wee ones are back at school) and although we are working together on several job-creation projects, we’ll also make a romantic day of it, I’m sure.

  320. Daisy wrote:

    Why don’t Christians make their own shows instead of producing ten year old copies of secular ones?

    That’s a large, and interesting, question. It’s historically been the same over here in the UK; “Christian rock music” in the 80’s was a sort of fusion between folk, and contemporary music from the 50’s. I think it’s simply that Christians who are not musicians, directors or artists, attempt to use the arts to “get the message across”.

    But “the message” they’re trying to get across is crude and incomplete: you’re a sinner, but you can be “saved” (from, presumably, destruction and hell). It contains nothing of adoption and sonship/daughtership, so the people who carry that message don’t truly understand the need to understand the people they’re trying to “reach”. Thus, a cheesy imitation of their culture will be quite good enough.

    I’m not explaining this terribly well, but I don’t want this to be a long post – it’s a nice day out there and I’ve some concreting to finish!

  321. Thank goodness Doug Wilson already has a wife. We’re grateful that she keeps him off the streets **************** (ed.) Can you imagine being married to him?

  322. Yes, copying the world and doing it badly has a glorious past in the art of Christians. For a long time that’s all CCM was. It always sounded about five years too late. I do think CCM has evolved its own sound in the last ten years or so- not that I listen to it much. I really appreciate current bands like Flyleaf, Red, Fireflight, and Skillet that have managed to make music on par with their secular counterparts, even touring with those groups.

    Veggietales stands out from all of this as something that is very unique and fresh- they definitely get my respect for that.

    I do think one of the issues is that Christian artists are attempting to ride two horses at once- their passion for the art and their passion for their mission. The worldly artists can focus all of their attention on the former, and there are some Christian artist that all but ignore the art side of things with good intention. The results are not good. In these cases the secular artist win every time and the Christians try to guilt people into consuming their art instead. Christian art becomes about being “safe, not compelling.

    But I don’t think art should be “used”- if it’s not a language you have a passion to speak in, then just don’t do it. In my case, I do write and perform Christian music. I don’t think my sound is necessarily contemporary or compelling, but I’m not trying to use it either. Its just what I have to get out, and I know it does resonate with some people, so that’s why I do it. I figure if it can bring encouragement to even a handful of Christian and it allows me to get it “out” of me, then it’s worth the investment of my time and money. But I hope I never give a sense that my music is better because if the message- the message is just a part of the art. It’s all what I have to say.

    I am VERY passionate about music, not just the message. And honestly, I have no great need to use music for my Christian faith. If I were inspired to write a love song for a woman, I would do that. But the thing is, all I seem to be able to do is write music about God. It’s not something I force into music, it’s just what is. Not sure if that’s a blessing or curse! I don’t think I’m riding two horses though. I write what I write because I feel passionately about it. it’s all very natural for me.

  323. @ Jeff S:

    ” But the thing is, all I seem to be able to do is write music about God. It’s not something I force into music, it’s just what is.”
    ************

    You are very honest. Your music is honest art.

    I, too, have a lot of passion for music and art. It is creative crime to exploit music and art for any purpose other than art itself. Art for its own sake. (meaning, the expression of art)
    ************

    “I do think one of the issues is that Christian artists are attempting to ride two horses at once- their passion for the art and their passion for their mission.”

    –A 3rd horse: the commercial factor. The need for producers to sell = reshaping art according to trends, numbers, demographics, fussiness (watering it down so as not to offend the fussy)…

    –A 4th horse: the celebrity factor. Art/music as a means for the artist to make his/her name great.

    good grief…. art is alive, a living being — distorting it, mutilating it, using it for these reasons… not letting it just “be”.

    Dishonest art is not art at all.

  324. Daisy wrote:

    Post Script: I don’t mean to condemn this as being wrong, it’s only a pet peeve of mine: how Christians think they have to have a “Christian equivalent” to everything. And it’s usually ten years after the secular trend, to make it even more annoying.

    Yeah. It’s at the point when you can tell when the original jumps the shark and is on its way out because that’s when the “Just like fill-in-the-blank, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)” knockoffs start appearing. Not before.

  325. P.S. Search the Web for an essay called “Sex, Death, and Christian Fiction” by Sf writer Simon Morden.

  326. Anon 1 wrote:

    Great stuff, guys. If there is one thing I am noticing in the current YRR movement is this laser like need to dehumanize people. When these sorts of things are brought up they almost always resort to example the French Revolution to show how any sort of humanism turns out.

    Oh? I thought the French Revolution was a better example of DEhumanization in the name of A Cause. A Cult(TM) doesn’t need to be based on a religion per se.

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