“There's a phrase, "the elephant in the living room", which purports to describe what it's like to live with a drug addict, an alcoholic, an abuser. People outside such relationships will sometimes ask, "How could you let such a business go on for so many years? Didn't you see the elephant in the living room?" And it's so hard for anyone living in a more normal situation to understand the answer that comes closest to the truth; "I'm sorry, but it was there when I moved in. I didn't know it was an elephant; I thought it was part of the furniture." There comes an aha-moment for some folks – the lucky ones – when they suddenly recognize the difference.”
African Bush Elephant (Wikipedia)
The Gospel Coalition has an impressive website. In addition to the blogs of reformed leaders, the website provides a plethora of information to keep its readership up-to-date on matters that concern them. For example, there is a section on the website with the heading You Should Know where news items are shared. As I compose this post, the latest You Should Know article is:
Billy Graham's Website Removes Mormonism From Cult List
As many of our readers know, news broke last week that a class action lawsuit has been filed in Montgomery County, Maryland against Sovereign Grace Ministries and eight other defendants. A vast array of news sources has covered this development, including The Washington Post, The Associated Press, The Christian Post, Associated Baptist Press, Christianity Today and even The Guardian in the United Kingdom, just to name a few. Even though the news has gone viral, The Gospel Coalition has failed to inform its readership about a serious matter that involves one of its council members who will be a speaker at 2013 TGC National Conference.
That is why we have added a new feature on the right hand side of our blog. Here it is:
We Wonder…
How long will it take for The Gospel Coalition/Al Mohler/Ligon Duncan/Mark Dever to mention the SGM/Mahaney 'situation?'
In a previous post we explained that three young ladies have brought legal action against Sovereign Grace Ministries and eight individual defendants. We were not familiar with all of the names, so we thought it might be helpful to gather a little information on each of them.
When we began investigating Sovereign Grace Ministries back in the fall of 2008, we started with the Wikipedia article. There was so much wrangling over the information in that article that it became almost humorous. Someone would add incriminating information about SGM, then the article would be scrubbed and sanitized. This went back and forth, back and forth, back and forth so many times that the Wikipedia editor became exasperated! If you click on the Wiki link you will see a flag at the top of the article stating that the "neutrality … is disputed".
What follows is information on the eight individuals named as Defendants (in the order that their names appear in the lawsuit).
CHARLES JOSEPH MAHANEY
"is the president of Sovereign Grace Ministries (formerly People of Destiny International or PDI co-founded with Larry Tomczak), a network formed to establish and support local churches, and was one of the founding pastors and leaders of Covenant Life Church, in Gaithersburg, Maryland and presently is the senior pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville." (link)
GARY RICUCCI
Gary is the brother-in-law of C.J. Mahaney. He is married by C.J.'s sister Betsy. What follows is information from the website of Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville.
Who are the pastors of this church? What are their roles?
Let me begin with the man who has served by my side in various capacities for over 35 years – Gary Ricucci. Gary will serve as an elder of the church and continue to provide pastoral care for those coming to the Pastors College. I anticipate his pastoral gifting and heart will be experienced by every member of the church. I look forward to how he and Betsy will serve the marriages of the church through their teaching and example. (link)
DAVID HINDERS
Community Life Pastor at Sovereign Grace Church Fairfax
LOUIS GALLO
Community Life Pastor at Sovereign Grace Church Fairfax
* Before the lawsuit was filed, it was rumored that Covenant Life Church and Sovereign Grace Church Fairfax might leave SGM to start their own network of churches.
FRANK ECELBARGER
As far as we can determine Frank Ecelbarger does not serve in any pastoral capacity. However, it appears that he recently led a Bible study at Redeemer Church (located in Florida), which is part of SGM. Here is an excerpt from the church website:
"Join us as we learn how to grow in our relationship with God through prayer on Sunday nights throughout the month of March. Frank Ecelbarger will be teaching this series and equipping us as a church to be a people dependent on the grace of God. We want to be a church that not only recognizes our need for God's grace and help in our lives, but aspires to demonstrate that dependence through humble prayer."
Redeemer Church is pastored by Benny Phillips who started this church in 2011 after leaving Metro Life Church in Casselberry, Florida Meetings are held at the Ultimate Power Martial Arts and Fitness Center. Here is some information from the church website:
"Redeemer Church is a group of believers committed to reaching the Lake Nona area with the gospel by building a gospel-centered church family.
We want to proclaim the message of hope: A message that changes lives and brings redemption to the brokenness of our humanity.
What people really need is not just a change of circumstance, but real hope. Hope that can only be found in the gospel; the message of our Redeemer sent to rescue us from our sins, mistakes and failures."
JOHN LOFTNESS
Chairman of the Board of Sovereign Grace Ministries and Senior Pastor of Solid Rock Church. You may recall that C.J. Mahaney left Covenant Life Church and attended church Capitol Hill Baptist Church for several months. After that he attended Solid Rock Church prior to the big move to Kentucky.
Here is the bio of SGM's Chairman of the Board:
John Loftness received a B.A. from Houghton College in 1978 and has studied extensively at the Masters degree level at Fuller Theological Seminary and Reformed Theological Seminary. He began his career as a pastor in 1981 when he joined the staff at Covenant Life Church. Over the years has served in a variety of roles in local churches and in SGM, primarily as a pastor. From 1990-2007 he served exclusively at Covenant Life. In 2007, John left Covenant Life to become the senior pastor of Solid Rock Church in Riverdale, Maryland.
GRANT LAYMAN
Serves as a pastor at Covenant Life Church. (link) He is also Carolyn Mahaney's brother.
LAWRENCE TOMCZAK
"is a pastor and preacher based in the USA. He is the co-founder of the group now known as Sovereign Grace Ministries and of several prominent churches." You can read about his departure from SGM here.
Just to give you a head's up, we are currently in touch with the plaintiffs and/or their parents. Please keep them in your prayers.
Lydia's Corner: Leviticus 6:1-7:27 Mark 3:7-30 Psalm 37:1-11 Proverbs 10:3-4
“Meetings are held at the Ultimate Power Martial Arts and Fitness Center.”
Nothing of substance, only a silly thing, to add here (as I’ve had a really long day). This makes me think of a storefront church in my town. For years it’s been in a space between a fitness center/martial arts place and a sex toy/lingerie store. Get fit, get saved, get laid, I guess. One-stop shopping at its best.
Like I said, I’ve had a really long day…
Come to think of it, maybe Mark Driscoll should come preach at that church. I think he’d appreciate the neighbors.
Hester – ROFL on that Driscoll comment!
“ROFL”
Nothing to laugh at here, really.
This is all just so grievously sad.
If there is even a smidgeon of truth to the allegations in the lawsuit, then there are precious lives that have been crushed by heinous evil masquerading as “godliness.” ROFCOTG – rolling on the floor crying out to God, “Why?”
Ezekiel 34 should be required regular reading for anyone who wants a pastoral role. Do they not know to Whom they must answer?
It looks like very few people are in attendance at C.J. Mahaney’s new church in Louisville, KY. No surprise since C.J. finds himself in the midst of a civil suit claiming sexual abuse of children in his denomination. What surprises me is a man of the stature of Thomas Schreiner would speak at C.J.’s church, and further, that in his introduction he would be liberal in his praise of C.J. and SGM.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SGCLouisville/status/260417200320569344/photos
http://sgclouisville.org/sovereign-grace-church-louisville-sermons
Dee & Deb – Benny Phillips was at SGM Fairfax for many years – a matter involving his adult daughter resulted in his being “de-gifted”.
See SGM Survivors for more…
Phillips was there as early as 1985, probably before that. he officiated at one of my friends’ weddings back in 1985.
What would help solve this kind of problem would be for being a christian to be a dangerous thing, where being a christian leader would mean poverty and significant trials. Then only those truly called with a passion for Christ and His church would become pastors, and the folks looking for fame, fortune, and power would go elsewhere.
Zeta
I wonder what kind of damage control is going on behind the scenes right now among the TGC/YRR crowd.
TW,
Yes, I have noticed the growing friendship between Thomas Schreiner and C.J. Mahaney.
On August 5, 2012, Mahaney delivered one of his canned sermons – Cravings and Conflicts – at Clifton Baptist Church, where Schreiner serves as Pastor of Preaching. In fact, it is the very message Mahaney gave the Sunday Dee and I went to hear him at the SGM church in our area back in January 2009 (two months prior to the launch of TWW).
Who knows, maybe Schreiner and Mahaney are collaborating on a book together. I would expect that.
Hester,
That’s an interesting ‘observation’ coming from someone who goes by the moniker ‘Hester’. đ
Mr.H
Agreed! First it was James MacDonald (of Elephant Room fame) and then Mark Driscoll who caused The Gospel Coalition problems. Now Mahaney appears to be a conundrum. It will be fascinating to see how all of this plays out.
TW,Â
Thanks for putting Clifton Baptist Church on my radar screen. I decided to investigate where Bruce Ware worships, and I wasn’t surprised to discover the following:
“Thomas Schreiner is the James Buchanan Harrison professor of New Testament interpretation, and associate dean of Scripture and Interpretation at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Bruce Ware is professor of Christian theology at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Both are members of Clifton Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky.” (link)
Birds of a feather, definitely!
I really should slog through those Detweiler documents… From what I have read (mostly SGMSurvivors) it’s clear that there’s a problem in SGM – too many almost exactly parallel stories of molestation by teenage boys who are then sheltered – but I don’t have that great of a handle on the “macro” issues like the other commenters here do.
And Deb – heehee. : )
“Then only those truly called with a passion for Christ and His church would become pastors, and the folks looking for fame, fortune, and power would go elsewhere.” -Orion’s Belt/Zeta
Over the past 10 years, I have become increasingly intolerant of pastors with large salaries, luxury homes in gated communities, wives don’t need to work (or they work at the church a few hours a month and make a salary reflective of their relationship to the pastor instead of actual work hours).
Pastors, whether in megachurches or small churches, are celebrities in our culture. This month – the whole month of October – is Pastor Appreciation Month. Some churches do special things for their pastors every day of October; some donate generous gifts; some send their pastors on getaways or vacations to show their appreciation.
Not to take away from all the good that great pastors do. But it seems that, with the constant adoration, deference, submission, money, and fame, it would be hard not to get on a power trip and think you’re untouchable. Without significant accountability measures, a pastor quite easily could become corrupt.
I have long been an advocate for bivocational ministry – or at least reasonable salaries for ministers. There is biblical support for it, and there are numerous advantages – like humility. I read one blog by a minister who said his colleagues call their prayer time âworkâ, their study time âworkâ, their coffee conversations âworkâ, their attendance at church functions âworkâ, their involvement in community meetings âworkâ, their volunteering âworkâ. Laypeople don’t do that. We make time in our schedules to do all those things AND work jobs to pay the bills.
Hester,
It’s not necessary to slog through Brent Detweiler’s documents to get a grasp of what was/is terribly wrong with Sovereign Grace Ministries (formerly known as PDI). Here is the heart-wrenching testimony of a former member named Pia: (link)
Â
âI remember calling John Loftness, Gary Ricucci, Larry Tomczak,etc.âmen I looked up to and who were my pastors at CLC and bosses when I was a loyal employee at PDI. âWhat do I do if Iâm being physically abused by my husband?â was what I wanted to ask them. Only John Loftness (whom I so respected and loved) bothered to call me back. And even he could not give me a straight answer. For years, even after I left PDI, I carried my shame and guilt in secret for obviously not âcutting itâ as the perfect PDI wife and being unceremoniously kicked out (after my divorce). I also carried so much hurt and anger because no leaderâŚnot anyone I reached out to anywayâŚbothered to really help me or give me wise counsel during that crucial period in my life. The best help eventually came from a secular counselling center for battered wives. For years, it was ingrained into me by my leaders, âDo not go to secular counselors or professionalsâŚcome to us, we have a corner on Godâs truth, we will tell you exactly what you need to do.â For almost 10 years, I followed their instructions to the T and still got abused. The first time I went to a therapist, my sisters had to trick me into seeing him, saying I was going there for the sake of one of my sisters. That man probably saved my life! That my PDI leaders acted like they were the experts on every single area and could tell me how to live my own life (because only they could accurately hear from God for me) was a lie I cannot now believe that I completely bought into. I was a magna cum laude graduate with a degree in Economics from George Washington University (I am now an Economics teacher). But that was before I sold my soul to PDI. By the time I left the system, I was a completely broken woman. Lost all my fire and passion for the Lord. Lost all my trust in church leaders. Lost my self-respect, dignity, sense of worth, etc., etc. I thought I was stupid and I thought I was going crazy.
Now that these latest events are unfolding and the big Humpty Dumpty (C.J.) who sat on his high lofty wall (whom I once thought was simply untouchable) is finally fallingâŚand as I watch all the kingâs horses and all the kingâs men desperately trying to put Humpty together againâŚI do have to say, âThank you God!â Thank you, on behalf of all the faceless, nameless victims of this once âpowerful empireâ for validating all our voicesâŚfinally! Thank you for showing so many of us that we werenât crazy, wrong or sinful just because we didnât agree with the system. In fact, in my case and in the case of so many, we were dying a slow deathâŚand leaving was a matter of our survivalâand that of our kids! Thank you that there are finally intelligent and caring lawyers, journalists, high-profile Christian leaders, professional counselorsâsane, normal, healthy peopleâwho are now peering into the hell hole I was once a part of and are starting to blow the whistle and crying out loudly, âFoul!â for all to hear.”
Hello Wendy and Zeta, good points. I appreciate that for a pastor probably prayer is work, as is study time. And if you have a parishioner over for coffee to find out how they’re doing, then maybe that’s work too, or rather, part of the vocation. On the other hand as you say as laymen we probably feel that prayer is our duty too, but we can’t call it part of our “day job”.
But I agree completely that there are temptations these days in rich countries in a pastor’s calling, namely to celebrity status (even if the rest of the world hates you) and riches. This can be the case even in some African and Asian countries, especially if prosperity theology is being taught.
Pia’s story is heartbreaking for me because I knew her at the time she was going through that nightmare at CLC but I had absolutely no idea of what was going on. We were even in the same care group for a time and I didn’t know. So much secrecy. I haven’t seen her in over 20 years, and I only found out what happened to her when I read her story at SGM Refuge. I thank God for how He rescued her. (Note to Pia: If you read this and you’d be willing, I’d love to reconnect with you. Dee knows my real name and email address and she has my permission to give them to you privately.)
Moniker,
You are so kind to try and reach out to Pia. It’s so difficult to read these painful testimonies.
May the truth about SGM be revealed to the world.
Interesting that the recent You Should Know article is “Billy Graham’s Website Removes Mormonism from Cult List”. I largely agree with the author of the post. The BGEA is compromising the Gospel (sorry) and putting political ideology and candidate endorsement before biblical truth. It’s a huge disappointment. The comments on the post are a mixed bag; some are grateful the BGEA scrubbed their website and are clearly thrilled with the green light from Billy Graham to vote a Mormon for President.
The culture wars and the Religious Right commandeering evangelicalism has my attention. But it isn’t more important that the lives of innocent children and families who’ve been ripped apart by sexual abuse and SGM cover-ups.
Like all of us here, I’m waiting for a response from those who’ve sung the praises of CJ Mahaney and put him on a pedestal for the rest to follow. Are they hoping it will die down or go away? Are they hoping their followers will stay uninformed about the massive scope and severity of the crimes committed against these children and their families? Are they waiting until there is so much public pressure or so much information available to their followers that they’re forced to respond?
What a powerful testimony by Pia! It’s true that “no one knows what goes on behind closed doors.” It’s obvious she got no support from church leaders, but I’m wondering what of her Christian brothers and sisters? I pray we (like Deb and Dee) strengthen, encourage, and comfort one another rather than depending soley on church leaders.
Victorious,
I suspect that the church leaders told Pia not to discuss her marital problems with other church members, so they had no idea of what was really going on behind closed doors. Shame on leaders who enforce the “Don’t Talk” rule!
If there is such “don’t talk” advice being given, it’s completely unbiblical. It denies the body of Christ the opportunity to weep with those who weep, rejoice with those who rejoice, and just plain “one-anothering” ministry.
I know Carl E. Trueman was on the initial “committee”, along with Thomas Schreiner, that gave a cursory thumbs-up to C.J. Mahaney’s fitness for ministry, but I just came across this interesting quote from him in “Risking the Truth: Handling Error in the Church” and I thought it quite applicable to Mahaney:
“Downes: How should a minister keep his heart, mind and will from theological error?
Trueman: No magic bullet here. The minister needs a good theological education, and then needs to maintain the basic disciplines of the Christian life – prayer and Bible reading, love to God and to neighbor. Of course, the minister does not sit under the preaching of the Word week by week, so accountability is even more of a problem for him than for others in the congregation. Presbyterianism has a structure of ministerial accountability in its church courts, but these are often impersonal and rather procedural gatherings. Even the Presbyterian minister still needs to make himself self-consciously accountable to others, a small group of one or more intimates.
One of the secrets of great leadership in any walk of life is to place those close to you who are not simply yes-men but who are prepared to be honest with you when they see you making a mistake. This is absolutely critical in the church: having true friends who speak the truth in love is vital.
I think of church leaders who simply became such objects of adulation by their people and by the wider evangelical world that, when they fell, it was clear that they had simply come to be regarded as too big to be held accountable. Nobody dared call them to account; nobody ever even suspected they needed to be held to account. I can think of others who simply started to believe their own propaganda and saw any and every criticism as a personal attack. Such people were disasters waiting to happen; and their problem was that they lost sight of the basics of the Christian life and made themselves accountable to no one. And I am always amazed at the cronies such people manage to gather around themselves: there is always someone willing to stroke the ego of such types, to tell them how wonderful they are whatever shenanigans they get up to; yet a true friend knows the necessity of speaking the truth out of love in all circumstances.”
-pages 30-31
TW
AMEN and AMEN!!!!
Deb & Victorious – Not talking about relational problems is part of the SGM culture. It’s not just that someone in a counseling situation is told by the pastor not to talk about it with others. We were taught that it’s a sin to “gossip” or “slander” others. Gossip was defined as participating in conversation about something of which you are “neither part of the problem nor part of the solution.” It was really emphasized in teachings for women that above all we were to show absolute loyalty and respect to our husbands and never ever talk about them in a way that might make them look bad to others. Never. So we kept our mouths shut and we didn’t ask questions if we suspected that something was wrong. Of course, this was all backed up by select Bible verses and quotes from select authors. It sounded oh so godly and right to me at the time. Now I realize how wrong much of what they taught me was and how wrong I was to go along with it.
And it’s so hard for anyone living in a more normal situation to understand the answer that comes closest to the truth; “I’m sorry, but it was there when I moved in. I didn’t know it was an elephant; I thought it was part of the furniture.” — Steven King
i.e. It’s What’s NORMAL.
Giving Pia instructions on how SHE could behave to stop her husband’s abuse and not allowing her to discuss it in her care group was another way to them to keep a tight reign and control over her. That is not Christian love or love of any kind. Can any of us here imagine knowing that our friend or sister or daughter or niece was being abused by her husband and encouraging her to change HER behavior and keep the abuse secret?
Just like in dysfunctional families, secrets keep you sick. And those secrets allow the abusers (in this case, CLC and Pia’s husband) to stay in control and appear godly and loving on the outside. The leaders at CLC and PDI who knew of Pia’s abuse are complicit in the abuse she suffered at home. They knew and did nothing. The enabling and betrayal by those in a position to help hurts almost as much – and in some cases more – than the actual physical (or sexual) abuse itself.
Ezekiel 34 should be required regular reading for anyone who wants a pastoral role. Do they not know to Whom they must answer? — Lynne T
Not if they’re the Predestined Elect, Predestined as God’s Speshul Pets before the creation of the world, waving their “Get Out of Hell Free” cards.
Remember we’re talking Hyper-Calvinists.
It’s All Predestined, just like Hyper-Islam.
What would help solve this kind of problem would be for being a christian to be a dangerous thing, where being a christian leader would mean poverty and significant trials. Then only those truly called with a passion for Christ and His church would become pastors, and the folks looking for fame, fortune, and power would go elsewhere. — Orion’s Belt
Problem is, OB, that sounds too much like “Longing to Live in North Korea”. There’s this thing with a lot of American Evangelicals about the Blessings of Persecution, when those Christians in Third World countries where the government and culture ARE murderously set against them would much rather be here where they won’t get stomped on. (Maybe we could arrange an exchange — they come here where they won’t get stomped on and we can go to their countries where we can be Godly through Persecution.)
During the Cold War, I remember preaching about how Persecution Hath Built a REAL Godly Underground Church in the USSR and Warsaw Pact (instead of us soft spoiled-rotten baby-fat Americans — actually sounded a LOT like the editorials of Guns & Ammo or Soldier of Fortune magazines translated into Christianese).
Then with the Second Russian Revolution, we heard about how all these Fire-Strengthened Uber-Christians from the East would now come and show us spoiled-rotten baby-fat American Christians How To Truly Serve The LORD. We’re still waiting.
I didn’t know Pia until recently but there are many similar stories that I could cite as well and, yes, unquestioning loyalty to your husband was expected of wives. In fact, we were defined by our role as wives. It was crushingly oppressive and I felt stupid, unworthy, and pathetically sinful all the time. There were times I was frightingly depressed.
We are all (our family) much healthier.
And, by the way, I remember the wiki wars with SGM loyalists. They kept disputing my story (can be found here on TWW) I could document the facts but the SGM drones don’t seem to be influenced by such trivial matters.
But, then again, considering the most recent lawsuit, my situation was trivial by comparison.
Wendy
Great comment at 7:31AM. Your brain functions better than mine at that early hour.
Moniker, thank you for your explanation of the reason behind the lack of transparency in the SGM culture. Framing it as gossip is very clever I must say and it’s understandable how that seemed reasonable.
Not long ago I did a study on the words, “one-another” using e-sword and found that phrase over 100 times in the NT. That phrase alone reflects the overall ministry of the body of Christ. It saddens me and makes me angry that such scripture twisting takes place in churches today.
Giving Pia instructions on how SHE could behave to stop her husbandâs abuse and not allowing her to discuss it in her care group was another way to them to keep a tight reign and control over her. That is not Christian love or love of any kind. — Wendy
But it IS Complementarian love(TM): “WOMAN! SUBMIT!”
Wendy
They (TGC, Mohler, Duncan, Challies) are in a real pickle. They know if they defend him, they could get smeared with “protect the pedophile” label. If they don’t defend him, then they must answer for their effusive groveling at the feet of all things SGM. They have been put in a far more difficult situation than the Driscoll deal thanks to the folks behind the lawsuit. They have done a very good thing.Â
My guess is they will hunker down and be silent showing themselves to be less than manly.:) Shame on them. They should stand for the victims instead of patting each other on the back. Where is their courage and humility? Shame on all of them.
“…unquestioning loyalty to your husband was expected of wives. In fact, we were defined by our role as wives.” -Debra Baker
A way to control and keep women in their place. And there are undoubtedly numerous bible verses twisted to maintain that control. Children aren’t protected. Abuse is enabled and covered up. Secrecy and “forgiveness” are demanded. That’s two groups down. And somehow they manage to get otherwise good men to go along with their program.
TW
Each week, I think every pastor should pick two members/attenders of the congregation who are nmot involved in any leadership position and meet with them to hear their thoughts. Said pastor should then resolve to do something kind for each of these folks. Many of these pastors only spend time with the “influential.”
Wendy, I agree with you that it is very disappointing how the Billy Graham Association has whitewashed Romney’s Mormonism. I’m not saying that being a Mormon makes Romney unfit for president as that is a political question, not a theological one. But I do believe that Mormonism is a cult or heresy in the theological/technical definition, and I am pretty certain that most Christians would feel the same way.
TW, that’s a very sound set of advice from Mr Schreiner. Thank you.
HUG, I remember the sort of thing you mention in the Cold War. I do get a bit annoyed when some zealous folk pray for persecution, as I think they tend to know not what they ask for. Persecution can strengthen the church in some ways, but it also damages it in others, causing loss of leadership and teaching (best/most faithful leaders thrown into prison or killed), division (between those who compromised and those who didn’t) and temptations to compromise, whether through threat or bribery. The effects of the KGB’s interference in church affairs still reverbrate today. Also while many Russian Christians and esp priests were brave men, some held opinions that were later seen to be closer to Solzhenitsyn’s nativism and autocracy rather than what we fondly imagined were leanings to liberal democracy. Those in the US who complain about the separation of church and state should look at the mess the Russian Orthodox church has sometimes found itself in through its close relationship with governments past and present.
Moniker
We have all been there-quoting our pet Bible verses, defending the church even though we knew something was wrong. Most of us have had a “come to Jesus” moment-in a very real sense. We now know that anyone, including pastors, head apostles, seminary presidents, etc., are capable of great sin-really, really bad sin, the type of sin that deeply hurts children and famiiles. Once our eyes are opened, we can clearly see the issues-including the selectivity of the Bible verses quoted.
Look at this time as a time of growth in which you can question what you have been taught and reread the Scriptures for a deeper understanding. You will end up far, far smarter, happier, and freer than Mahaney and gang.Â
Wendy
Something you said really hit home. “Giving Pia instructions on how SHE could behave to stop her husbandâs abuse and not allowing her to discuss it in her care group was another way to them to keep a tight reign and control over her.”
Â
How like Adam and Eve’s response to their sin. They tried to run and hide from God, hoping if they just covered themselves, the secret would be kept. This is exactly what Satan wants. “Shhhh, don’t tell anyone and it will be alright.”
“My guess is they wil hunker down and be silent showing themselves to be less than manly.:)”
Where is DominionMandate Victorious Manlyman the 3rd when you need him.
“Shame on them. They should stand for the victims instead of patting each other on the back. Where is their courage and humility? Shame on all of them.”
YES. By their silence, which continues to day by day embarrass them, they are, imo, shouting loud and clear to the world exactly what they think of victims of abuse. Nothing.
That is horrible. They are figuring this story will last about a week-10 days at the most and then people will be on to something else. So they think. That will not be the case.
Where is DominionMandate Victorious Manlyman the 3rd when you need him? — Diane
Slapping around his Little Woman, where else?
And admiring his Victorious Manly Manliness in the mirror:
“I CAN BEAT YOU UP!!!! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!!!! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!!!!”
Debra
SGM’s wicked emphasis on sin has caused this lawsuit. We could spend our days, all day, every day, focusing on our sin and never plumb the depths of it. That is why Jesus died-to forgive all of it and that is why he rose again-you are free. It is done. We are to live our days joyful in the freedom of forgiveness. We deal with the sin that comes up but we must be very careful not to get bogged down in our sin because, if we do, that is all that we will see. We will become depressed and feel it is hopeless.
This will negate all that Jesus has done on for us. He died so that we could be free. So when the Evil One (and those pastors and leaders) hound you day in and day out about your sin, tell them to get lost. Grace gives us freedom and the very fact of grace is an ackowledgement of our need for it. Don’t stop at the Cross. Dial in the Resurrection and the joy. As Deb said in her evaluation of The Cross Centered Life by Mahaney- CJ put a period at the Cross-Jesus still hanging there. Instead put a comma after the Cross and put the period after the Resurrection.
He loved us enough to get us out of our mess. Let’s not linger in the mud.
But wait . . . Tim Challies is discussing CJ on his blog today. He’s talking about how he and his wife listened to CJ’s keynote address: Strengthening Your Marriage in Ministry on his post Is My Wife’s Job Harder Than Mine? (http://www.challies.com/christian-living/is-my-wifes-job-harder-than-mine)
As if CJ is the expert on marriage and the Biblical role of wives. ::::I’m getting sick already::::
There’s no mention of a lawsuit in the post OR in the comments. Elephant?
A manly man stand up for, defends, protects, seeks help for (etc., etc.) anyone who is abused or harmed by another, REGARDLESS OF WHO THE OTHER IS!!!! Why is it that the same people who pilloried Clinton for an affair with a younger adult woman (who appears to have been the initiator, btw), act so strenuously to protect a man or teenage male who rapes little children or repeatedly beats up a woman (once should be the trigger to oust the louse!)? These guys need to change the gender on their license to WIMP!
Mr. H
Challies prints a puff piece of the glorious teachings of the great bald one. check-done. They are calling focus groups to see what apporach works best-silence or quiet acknowledgement from a nobody at TGC in order to protect the “image” of the glorious leaders.
“Thereâs no mention of a lawsuit in the post OR in the comments. Elephant?”
It’s gossip/slander to talk about a TGC member. We must all remember that.
But it’s ok to talk about Rachel Held Evans or D’Souza and one can post away to one’s heart’s content about them.
TW
I would imagine that there are many who would avoid Mahaney like the plague. So, here is what I bet will happen. To help him pretend that he is still successful, SBTS and Mohler will offer seminary credit to any of the students who attend Mahaney’s new enterprise.Â
Anon on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 01:13 AM –
I was specific about what I was laughing about. And, yes, I needed a laugh.
I most certainly wasn’t laughing about this post or the actions of SGM leaders over the past 30 years. They have left a wake of abuse in their path due to their pride and arrogance in thinking that they have everything figured out.
Their pride and arrogance has been furthered along with their belief that only “men” are called to lead. Now you have everyone “not a man” or “not an elite man chosen by God” on a different status level. So, from the get go, where did that leave women and children and men who fell short of someones(?) expectations? Their fates were determined by the “elite” few. No wisdom or care was afforded to them by their brothers and sisters – the priesthood of believers. SGM leaders have actually operated by destroying the “function” of the Bride of Christ.
I know far more about SGM than I really want to know. Hopefully, this will help know me a bit better.
Debra,
I can relate to feeling unworthy and pathetically sinful. I don’t remember much about complementarianism as a kid growing up in conservative churches. I don’t even remember hearing much on it as a grad student at Liberty and in my circles there. Then again, I wasn’t married then. It wasn’t until the mid-90’s that I began noticing a lot of books and teaching on complementarian marriages. It does seem, to me, that the push began around that time, but maybe it’s where I was then (life stage and Christian/church circles).
I’ve been to numerous women’s conferences, read several books, heard teaching from the pulpit and bible study groups on what we now call complementarianism. Though not nearly as rigid as your experience in SGM, we were given the same information – discussing problems with your husband and marriage is wrong, sinful, hurts God, hurts your Christian witness, and so on. “Gossiping” about your husband/marriage drives a wedge in your relationship with your husband and with God. God can repair a broken relationship, but if there’s gossip and mistrust, it’s more difficult and things may never be what they could have been. It’s frightening, and with that much hanging in the balance, you come to believe it’s best to keep everything secret. I believe this the reason I didn’t tell anyone about the abuse I was experiencing with my first husband. Until things got so bad and he convinced me that he was going to kill me or have me killed, I kept it quiet. I/we acted like everything was fine. I finally told a co-worker, because I was scared for my life.
I remarried, with complementarianism fully ingrained. Though my husband and I enjoy our egalitarian marriage now, we tried to do things the way were being taught in the beginning. I was determined to have a godly marriage and “be the helpmeet God had called me to be” (as I often heard). My husband didn’t put any pressure on me, but our church and Christian circles did. I would finish a book or leave a conference or leave a bible study feeling so depressed and deflated, resolve to do better, fail to “submit” in one way or the other (After nursing an infant, caring for a toddler, preparing meals, and doing laundry all day, I didn’t put on a fresh, attractive outfit to welcome my husband home from work, for instance), and the cycle would repeat itself. There were a couple of books that overwhelmed me so much, I wanted to burn them. I DID trash them but now can’t remember the author.
Thanks for the thoughts, all and it isn’t that way it hasn’t been for a long time and I think that can be traced back to the change in how I related to my children when I finally ginned up the courage to question the teaching that their eternal souls’ fate rested in my parenting methodology and that teaching placed a heavy emphasis on draconian punitive parenting. The natural outcome of the change in outlook was a grace-based approach that I was well aware of my status before God because of Jesus’ finished work on the cross.
It is amazing how the manipulative ways of these disturbing trends in Christianity have no attractiion to people who have been given the opportunity to bask in the sunshine of His grace!
Yes, there are times when self doubt pays me a visit but it isn’t part of my core as it was back in the day. I am thankful that God created me female and gave me five daughters. I am not a second class citizen that has been created to be someone’s helpmeet (or any other cut of meat.)
Unfortunately, this SGM sin-sniffing sort of teaching has turned my older children away from church but my younger children (the ones nurtured in grace not the tedium of legalism) freely go to church and are not jaded against Christianity but are, by their own volition, Christians that participate in church.
@ Deb:
I started the Detweiler reading program this morning from page 1… Trying to keep it all straight.
“Pastors whether in Mega churches or small churches are celebrities in our culture” Totaly agree.
Jesus was not a superstar. Men despised him.When he walked this earth, he had no wealth and neither did his disciples.Most of his followers were not wealthy. What we see in the culture today are “pastors” not representing the true Christ but an image of a false one.
I don’t call prayer, going to church functions, going for coffee,etc work either. That’s how they justify to themselves a salary.
Julie Anne, I noticed how Tim Challies complimented his wife for taking the “lead” in a number of tasks (all of which are centered in the home, of course.) That, no doubt, enables him to say that both the husband and wife lead….in their respective roles. How clever!
This deal with the Billy Graham doesn’t surprise me. He has said a few things in the past that were red flags for me. His son Franklin makes a ton of money off of his dad’s ministry plus his own. Not to mention he (Franklin) is friends with Paul and Jan Crouch. Paul and Jan also give to Franklin’s ministry.
Okay, gonna engage in a just a little threadjacking here… How many of these big-name complementarian groups push the idea that friendships between boys/girls and men/women either can’t happen, shouldn’t happen or are VERY DANGEROUS (because they lead to affairs, etc.)? I’m dealing with some people spouting this classic patriarchal-comp fiction on my FB at the moment and I was just curious. Did SGM promote this too? Because whenever I’ve seen it, it tends to make all interactions with the opposite sex (outside of family members) become “sexual.” Which, you know, couldn’t POSSIBLY contribute to sexual abuse of minors at ALL.
Hester –
SGM does promote complementarianism. I’ll copy from my own comment above.
“Their pride and arrogance has been furthered along with their belief that only âmenâ are called to lead. Now you have everyone ânot a manâ or ânot an elite man chosen by Godâ on a different status level. So, from the get go, where did that leave women and children and men who fell short of someones(?) expectations? Their fates were determined by the âeliteâ few. No wisdom or care was afforded to them by their brothers and sisters â the priesthood of believers. SGM leaders have actually operated by destroying the âfunctionâ of the Bride of Christ.”
Comps claim that this is not true for “all” comps. They claim that abuse does not happen when it is lived correctly. I have just never seen it done “right” (I guess?).
How many of these big-name complementarian groups push the idea that friendships between boys/girls and men/women either canât happen, shouldnât happen or are VERY DANGEROUS (because they lead to affairs, etc.)? — Hester
Exploring male/female friendships was the main theme of the (old name) Faith Dance blog.
Hit “post comment” too soon.
In fanfic, there is the term “Shipping” (short for “relationship” — I think the term originated in anime fandom). This involves (usually erotic) stories between two characters, often taken to the point of absurdity. “Shipping” became so associated with SEXUAL relationships that a separate term — “Friendshipping” — had to be coined to distinguish “shipping” stories without meat-in-meat action.
And as for “everything being sexual”, that explains a LOT of my aloneness. I don’t want sex, I want COMPANIONSHIP, and all I can find is Sex.
Without reading the other comments to see if this has been mentioned already:
I think that if a close associate and long time friend of mine faced such allegations, and let’s assume for the sake of argument that they were true, it would take a bit of convincing to persuade me of my friend’s guilt. This is natural, normal, and healthy: We shouldn’t throw our buds under the bus the first time somebody points a finger. Even if they are wrong, as their friend, it’s our job to support them through it, which will involve holding their feet to the fire and walking through the consequences with them.
So, perhaps many Calvinista bigwigs are waiting for a trial verdict before knowing how to respond. They have a friendship and relationship to consider here. But I will certainly concede that does not bar them from any conversation about the topic whatsoever. They could at least mention something about their shock, their skepticism, and their trust that God will bring the truth to light and execute justice. But complete silence does seem strange.
Comps claim that this is not true for âallâ comps. They claim that abuse does not happen when it is lived correctly. — Bridget
Just like True Communism?
âThereâs no mention of a lawsuit in the post OR in the comments. Elephant?â
Itâs gossip/slander to talk about a TGC member. We must all remember that. — Diane
“TOUCH NOT MINE ANOINTED!!!! DO MY PROPHET NO HARM!!!!”
— Benny Hinn (and his Holy Ghost Machine Gun)
This deal with the Billy Graham doesnât surprise me. He has said a few things in the past that were red flags for me. His son Franklin makes a ton of money off of his dadâs ministry plus his own. — Stormy
There’s a lot of speculation as to whether Franklin is the one calling all the shots and just signing the old man’s name to it.
Not to mention he(Franklin) is friends with Paul and Jan Crouch. Paul and Jan also give to Franklinâs ministry. — Stormy
One Hand Washes the Other…
Victorious on Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 12:36 PM said: [[Julie Anne, I noticed how Tim Challies complimented his wife for taking the âleadâ in a number of tasks (all of which are centered in the home, of course.) That, no doubt, enables him to say that both the husband and wife leadâŚin their respective roles. How clever!]]
Then again, if she is “taking the lead” in response to his letting her take the lead, she is still situated by leading through response, not responding to situations through leading. So, I guess there’s a convoluted set of “realms” or “domains,” some of which allow for primary lead-leading (i.e., his), and some with secondary response-leading (hers). Which perhaps just goes to show that seemingly reasonable systems of relationships — at least on the surface of things — may prove more “elephant” than “elegant” when one looks at the paradigm beneath. And so, for instance, who are children ultimately responsible to, since Mom is not really The Ultimate Leader, but only a derivative one in the family domain? Exasperating …
TGC isn’t going to say anything. I imagine many were caught like deer in headlights. For all the bluster of many about being bold, I suspect their fears have paralyzed them.
BTW, Denny Burk is bashing RHE again.
How many of these big-name complementarian groups push the idea that friendships between boys/girls and men/women either canât happen, shouldnât happen or are VERY DANGEROUS (because they lead to affairs, etc.)? Iâm dealing with some people spouting this classic patriarchal-comp fiction on my FB at the moment and I was just curious. Did SGM promote this too? Because whenever Iâve seen it, it tends to make all interactions with the opposite sex (outside of family members) become âsexual.â Which, you know, couldnât POSSIBLY contribute to sexual abuse of minors at ALL.
And taken to its logical conclusions, it leads directly to … Islam. Total segregation of the sexes in normal daily life.
Kolya: “[L]ook at the mess the Russian Orthodox church has sometimes found itself in.”
Part of the problem is that it keeps being referred to by those in the West as the “Orthodox” church. It is anything but. It should be referred to as the “state-approved” church of Russia, or the Russian “state” church.
So true, Brad! But Tim wouldn’t be so bold as to convey it that way or he would prove himself to be a narcissist. The way he worded it…he gets to appear a benevolent benefactor. lol
Miguel, that is a very good point.
Hester, I remember for a few years at my church this sort of rather strange teaching seemed in vogue. I’m not naming any names but I found rather disturbing, not just for myself (having reached middle age it was no longer such an issue, even though I’m single) but for the youngsters who I felt were being almost infantilised by this sort of subtle segregation. Fortunately it seems to have improved a fair bit since then. But to me it definitely seemed that cross-sex friendships were regarded as either an oxymoron or the pathway to either marriage or sex.
Hi TedS,
That’s a good point. Their basic tenets are correct but they have gone off on some rather odd tangents which at best have no basis in Scripture, such as some of the Marian doctrines which are also found in Roman Catholicism. The icon thing goes back much further, to Byzantine days, so it’s probably a bit harsh to blame them for that, though it shows that holding on to “tradition” can be a two-edged sword. I confess I have been very disappointed with the way that the Orthodox Church in Russia has elbowed everyone else to one side now that they themselves are no longer being oppressed by the Communists.
Julie Anne
Saw that post and will put up a short blurb. I call it a “puff” piece. No mention of the problems.
It seems the pickle The GC guys are in reminds me of a certain group of religious elite in Matthew 21:23-27.
If we defend we will be hated, and if we speak against we will have to answer for our actions.
“There Is Something Wrong With da Church’s Pulpit, Notz My Bible?”
hmmm…
“It is amazing how the manipulative ways of these disturbing trends in Christianity have no attractiion to people who have been given the opportunity to bask in the sunshine of His grace!” Â Debra BakerÂ
hum, hum, hum…
“You are my sunshine”, You are my sunshine, You make me happy when SGM sky’s are gray…You’ll never know how much I love you, Lord!  Pleze take da bad SGM pastors away!
Whew!
S“㥔py
Nathan
Well stated.
It looks like very few people are in attendance at C.J. Mahaneyâs new church in Louisville, KY.
That’s a day-brightener!
Hi All
âIs The Gospel Coalition Ignoring the Elephant in the Room?â
Seems to me – TGC is Ignoring at least 6 Elephants in the Room. đ
TGC posted info from Pew Research about the decline of Protestantism in the USA.
â6 Reflections on Protestant Decline in Americaâ – Oct. 11, 2012.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/10/11/6-reflections-on-protestant-decline-in-america/?comments#comments
I thought Iâd give them my opinion, my 6 reasons for; â the decline of Protestantism in the USA.â
They didnât like what I said and removed the comment. Go figure…
In my experience… These 6 reasons also relate to SGMâs so-called Leaders messing up – And…
Why there are so many âPastors who Abuseâ âPastors addicted to Exercising Authorityâ
âPastors addicted to – Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Reputation – Recognition.â
And we know – Power Corrupts – And – Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutly
This comment removed from…
âTGC – 6 Reflections on Protestant Decline in Americaâ – Oct. 11, 2012.
Thanks for this info….
Seems lots of folks are recognizing and leaving – âThe Corrupt Religious Systemâ of today. Many never leave The Church of God. aka The Body of Christ. (I love His Church.) Most have left âThe Corrupt Religious Systemâ – That has damaged so many. The 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation, the IRS calls church.
Should His Disciples call an IRS Corporation âHis Church?â His ekklesia? đ
Corrupt – Dictionary
1- showing a willingness to act dishonestly in return for money or personal gain.
2- in a state of decay; rotten or putrid.
3- debased or made unreliable by errors or alterations.
Hasnât The Whole Religious System, for 1700 years, been *Totally Corrupt?* With…
1 – Elder/Overseers who do NOTâmeet the qualifications found in the Bible?
…..(1. Must be Blameless. 2. Holy? 3. Just? 4. Rule well their own house? etc.)
2 – Multiple thousands of denominations – NOT found in the Bible?
…..(Baptist, Presbyterian., Catholic, Lutheran, Assembly of God. etc.)
3 – Multiple Movements – NOT found in the Bible?
…..(Reformed, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Emergent, etc.)
4 – Abusive Heirarchy – Abusive Authoritarians – NOT found in the Bible?
…..(Who Exercise Authority like the gentiles and lord it over Godâs heritage.)
5 – Traditions of men – NOT found in the Bible?
…..(Money as a Tithe, Go to church, Join a church, church membership. etc).
6 – Titles/Positions – NOT found in the Bible? (Pastor/Leader/Reverend?)
…..(Clergy, Doctor, Right Reverend, Cardinal, Senior Pastor, Lead Pastor. etc.)
Isnât âTodayâs Systemâ filled with those having âa willingness to act dishonestlyâ
And are after…
1- âmoney and personal gainâ (Celebrity Pastors, Authors, Confrence speakers.)
3- and make âTodayâs Religious Systemâ âunreliable by errors or alterations,â
to the Bible, how the Bible describes âHis Church.â Qualifications for Overseer?
And because of these errors and alterations to the qualifications of Elder/Overseer
2- The Corrupt Religious System is in a state of decay; rotten and putrid.
And folks are leaving by the millions. And turning to Jesus.
————
Yup – NO disagreement from TGC – Just deletion.
Maybe they are upset because I refrenced the Bible – Or NOT found in the Bible.
But they had to read it to delete it. đ
Hester, in regards to your “threadjacking”, I saw that stuff start to infiltrate my college church and the on-campus worship service probably in the fall of ’08. Fortunately for me, I graduated not long after. Fortunately for the church and on-campus group, I graduated not long after. đ I tend to be a little outspoken and that would have caused some problems had I stuck around much longer. I also lost my home to a natural disaster during that time period so my responses to the nonsense were not quite as “vivid” as they normally are.
I can remember the preacher for the on-campus worship service start to mention things like “guys and girls need to be careful about praying together – it forms a powerful spiritual bond”. Or, “guys if you meet a girl who is a non-believer, introduce her to some sisters in Christ ASAP so they can lead her to Christ”. The one thing that really got me annoyed was when he said “guys, be careful about spending too much time with girls who aren’t your girlfriends. When you speak with girls one on one, their first thought is ‘oh my gosh he likes me, i wonder if he’s going to ask me out’ so you need to be cautious if you don’t want to marry her.”
Um, by this point, I’ve made it over 20 years talking to guys and remaining single. The leader’s logic doesn’t work for me. I like having conversations with my guy friends because they bring a different perspective and tend to be very blunt, something I appreciate. Nothing sexual about it at all. I don’t remember specific book titles brought up but I do remember Nancy Leigh DeMoss, the Mahaney girls, Beth Moore, Al Mohler, and the SBTS being quoted that last year I was in college. The guys were encouraged to give up everything to attend SBTS and girls were supposed to marry the guys and be happy little homemakers, regardless of degrees earned. It seems their strategy is to hit up the young foolish college kids. At this point, I can’t find the dividing line between SGM and the Southern Baptists in theology.
Amos, Just my opinion but they delete because they fear that the truth will be known and more people will leave “their kingdoms.”
For those who NO longer trust âThe Corrupt Religious Systemâ of today.
You are NOT alone.
Hereâs an interesting book by George Barna – âRevolutionâ
http://www.amazon.com/Revolution-George-Barna/dp/1414310161/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1350061196&sr=1-1&keywords=revolution+-+george+barna
Barna is a christian Pollster –
He has tracked the millions who are leaving âthe Corrupt Religious System.â
The 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation, the IRS calls church.
In order to find – {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
For those diapointed with todays âPastor/leader/Reverendsâ – a “Title” NOT in the Bible.
Or whatever fancy âtitleâ they come up with, thatâs NOT in the Bible, to control and minipulate.
And those who are disapointed in todayâs so-called church…
And have left…
You are NOT alone.
Itâs Worth reading the reviews.
————
From the Back Cover
Millions of believers have stopped going to church…
and chosen to be the church instead.
Research by renowned pollster George Barna points to a hidden Revolutionâone that will impact every Christian believer in America. Millions of committed Christ-followers, dissatisfied with the church experience, have stopped attending on Sunday mornings. Why are they leaving? Where are they going? And what does this mean for the future of the church?
In this groundbreaking book, Barna examines the state of the church todayâand compares it to the biblical picture of the church as God intended it to be. He documents how and why a new brand of devout âRevolutionariesâ is abandoning the local church building while attempting to become the church that Christ commissioned us to be.
This Revolution will challenge you with
the straightforward biblical guidelines for the church
7 core passions of a Revolutionary
a daring redefinition of the church as we know it.
Maybe youâre afraid of the changes to come.
Maybe youâve been waiting for this moment to arrive.
Either way, the Revolution is here.
————
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear My voice;**
and there shall be âONEâ fold, and âONEâ shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
It seems the pickle The GC guys are in reminds me of a certain group of religious elite in Matthew 21:23-27. — Nathan
“If we defend we will be hated, and if we speak against we will have to answer for our actions.”
Didn’t that certain group solve their dilemma by “Let’s get the Romans to kill this guy! They’ll even bring the wood and nails!”?
I confess I have been very disappointed with the way that the Orthodox Church in Russia has elbowed everyone else to one side now that they themselves are no longer being oppressed by the Communists. — Kolya
Because now they’re the 400-pound gorilla with the sweetheart arrangement with the government who can throw their weight around. An old, old pattern in Russia. Autocracy, whether State or Church.
HUG and Stormy,
Since Billy Graham lives in the same county I do, I watch his life and ministry very closely. I know when he’s sick, when he goes to the hospital, and so forth. Living close by and being a pillar of the faith, Billy Graham and his family have been admired by my family for generations.
Franklin Graham has been involved in several controversies (financial and political) since he began working more closely with his father. Franklin Graham is a very wealthy man due to receiving two lucrative full-time salaries from the BGEA and Samaritan’s Purse – simultaneously.
I believe this is the reason folks are theorizing that Franklin is using his father’s image (branding, if you will) to push his political ideologies. This was something Billy Graham has spoken against, as recently as 2011.
In case anyone is interested in a review, here is an article entitled, appropriately, “Franklin’s Purse”.
http://www.worldmag.com/2009/10/franklin_s_purse
Stormy
I think I would enjoy meeting you over a cup of coffee.
I think the Jesus in me would recognize the Jesus in you.
Much agrrement When you write @ Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 12:26 PM…
âWhat we see in the culture today are âpastorsâ not representing the true Christ
but an image of a false one.â
And, NOT one of His Disciples was called pastor/leader. Or, called themself pastor/leader.
Hmmm? Things that make you go – Hmmm?
And, Much agrrement when you write @ Tue Oct 23, 2012 at 12:37 PM…
âBilly Graham… He has said a few things in the past that were red flags for me..â
Oy Vey !!! – Another of my âHeros of the Faithâ who have fallen.
Billy has said some – ehhh – Letâs just say Iâm NOT interested any more with the Franklinâs. đ
I guess God knew what He was doing when he said…
Jer 17:5
Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm…
Ps 118:8-9
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.
When you believe the lie you start to die…
HUG
“And as for âeverything being sexualâ, that explains a LOT of my aloneness. I donât want sex, I want COMPANIONSHIP, and all I can find is Sex.” well said.
Franklin Graham has been involved in several controversies (financial and political) since he began working more closely with his father. Franklin Graham is a very wealthy man due to receiving two lucrative full-time salaries from the BGEA and Samaritanâs Purse â simultaneously. — Wendy
$1.2 MILLION a year…
Quite a contrast with his father, who when asked once about his income, replied without hesitation “$35,000 a year, our house, and travel expenses for the Crusades.”
Miguel
All of them have been well aware of the porblems for a very long time. They consistently ignore the numbers of alleged victims throughout the years. If you had a friend who was spawning blogs with serious reports of absue, I am sure that you might start asking questions. You are very intelligent.
So, either i have to conclude that these guys are stupid, which does not seem to be the case, or they have a bigger agenda in which it is perfeectly fine to overlook abuse. Why is the question.
Regarding Denny Burk….
He hasn’t said much of anything about ol’ CJ over the years, so he’s the perfect mouth-piece to go after Rachel right now when other SBC/TGC leaders need to be quiet.
Even still, his posts don’t interact with Rachel at all. He’s just angry cause she said things he doesn’t like.
âAnd as for âeverything being sexualâ, that explains a LOT of my aloneness. I donât want sex, I want COMPANIONSHIP, and all I can find is Sex.â
well said. — Dee
It’s why these days I end up streaming My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic from YouTube, mooning over Twilight, Rarity, and Fluttershy, and wishing they were real and I could have what they have.
Juniper
TGC has been aware of the numbers of complaints and reports throughout the years. This should be of no great surprise to them. But, they never thought it would result in a lawsuit on child sex abuse. They  will be tarred if they don’t say something and they will be looked at negatively if they defend SGM.Â
Off to visit Denny Burk. It’ s sure easier to bash RHE who has some differing perspectives yet they will not bash those who allegedly hurt children, hmmm?
LOL, Thanks, Amos.
I think of those verses all of the time about putting your trust in the Lord only. I’ve heard so many people say just the opposite. Even the Christian psychologists tell you that you have to learn how to trust people. But as a person gets older I think that reality starts to set in when you’ve had a lot of things happen to you in the “church”(and outside) and you realize why God said to trust in Him only.
Not only are these people not preaching the real Christ but they are flat out lying to others. Even if some are truly convinced that scripture says this and that. It’s still a lie. This is how people end up questioning God when life doesn’t work out exactly how they told you it would.
A question that perhaps someone with legal background could answer: If a leader or member in one organization hears directly or indirectly about an allegation of child sexual abuse (or other criminal activity) — or coverup — happening in another organization, what is their legal responsibility? Or does that depend on the state’s laws on mandatory reporting, or other factors (such as if the suspected abuse happened in a different state)?
Also, any suggestions about ethical responsibility, regardless of what legal responsibility would be?
HUG, I read were it was something around 80,000 a year. Maybe that came later in his life but from what I can tell, Billy lives pretty well financialy.
Nathan said,
“It seems the pickle The GC guys are in reminds me of a certain group of religious elite in Matthew 21:23-27.
If we defend we will be hated, and if we speak against we will have to answer for our actions.”
Nathan,
I had that very same thought earlier today when Dee and I talked. Thanks for this comment!
Ethically, anyone who hears an allegation of sexual abuse (or other abuse) of a child should report it to the proper authority for investigation. Protection of children is an obligation of the entire society!
Legally, it depends on the state reporting law. First, some laws require that the report be made directly to the obligatory reporter or to a subordinate of that reporter. But some laws make everyone in certain categories mandatory reporters. Second, some laws require that the child have made an outcry or otherwise displayed symptoms of possible abuse, where as others set a lower standard of suspicion based on some verifiable fact. An example that can be treated differently is Jane saying “Susie said that her uncle did some things to her he should not do.” which could mean a little or a lot. It is hearsay, second hand, and unclear as to what is meant exactly. Or “Susie said her uncle was playing doctor with her.” That one is really fuzzy.
But if it were me, I would report what Jane said that Susie said and let the child abuse investigator with the training and experience in handling such matters sort it out. That way, one is not sitting on info that may indicate that a child has been or is being abused, and possibly contributing to more abuse of that child or the abuse of another.
On Franklin Graham’s Compensation
TWW wrote a post on this. Here.  It’s not pretty.
Â
Thanks Arce … that was clear, concise, and helpful!
From Mandy’s post above: (BTW – if you click the link on the words “post above” it’ll take you to Mandy’s post; then if you hit backspace on your browser it SHOULD bring you back to this one. Works on Firefox for Mac, at least…)
Picture, if you will, a 44-year-old father of two spraying tea several feet across the room (in the process, making a noise like a yak trying to sing soprano down its nose) having tried to swallow and laugh reflexively at the same time.
Mandy – do you recall much else about the chap in question? Was he, for instance, greasy-haired and single? If he wasn’t single, did you meet his girlfriend/fiancee/wife, and if so, did she strike you as being particularly bright?
I don’t know how old he was at the time, of course, but to be fair, I was pretty much as clueless as that too when I was a student. And (surprise, surprise) single.
Re: the Tim Challies blog post.
Darrell Dow (Benevolent Dictator of Stuff Fundies Like) posted a serious comment on it basically asking if this was Challies’s way “to test the waters on how his circles are feeling about Mahaney these days”.
It was deleted within minutes.
HUG – I find it hard to hear of your struggles for companionship…there are loads of women in the world who don’t see sex as the be all & end all, rather as the icing on the relationship cake. You always come across as eminently fascinating & befriendable.
This whole thing about males & females not spending time together is nonsense, based on the idea that being with the opposite gender always leads to sex. Maybe it does for some, but not for others. I have always had male friends, & I can spend infinite time with my brothers without getting a single frisson. This just paints women as simple-minded marriage machines, who will marry anyone nice enough to talk to them. Or it could paint some men as arroagant enough to think all the ladies would like to marry them.
SOme of these ideas are ultra-Freudian – the idea that all relationships are either legitmately sexual or illegitimately sexual, no space for gendered-but-non-sexual interaction. When I see the shennanigans of those who put these ideas forward mostly I see males (sorry, not against males, just these particular ones) who don’t seem to want to develop any self-control.
I taught some very different stuff to this when I was leading church Youth Groups, & a lot of it had to do with self-awareness of your own weaknesses & needs, & with treating other people properly. For those who couldn’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, for those who can, make coffee.
@Hester wrote:
How many of these big-name complementarian groups push the idea that friendships between boys/girls and men/women either canât happen, shouldnât happen or are VERY DANGEROUS (because they lead to affairs, etc.)
It’s not very far from that to saying that men and women shouldn’t be together in the same places of work because of the temptation. What then occurs is that women are forced into either being “homemakers” or into lower-paying “pink collar” jobs. Or, like Saudi Arabia, there are entirely separate workplaces for men and women, but the men’s workplaces are privileged and the women’s workplaces are an afterthought.
Reminds me of a story I read about four women in remote Saudi Arabia who taught at a girl’s school. They had to be brought by a taxi, driven by a man, because of course, Saudi women aren’t permitted to drive by law. (Thank you religious nutters.) Well, a lot of eyebrows were raised over that. The women worked around their problem in an ingenious way–they married their taxi driver. I read this story in one of the Saudi English language newspapers within the last five years and it has stuck with me.
That’s the kind of world (minus the polygamy) these “complementarians” are marching us toward. Over my dead body!
@Tikatu
Re: the Tim Challies blog post.
Darrell Dow (Benevolent Dictator of Stuff Fundies Like) posted a serious comment on it basically asking if this was Challiesâs way âto test the waters on how his circles are feeling about Mahaney these daysâ.
It was deleted within minutes.
Wow. Darrell Dow and SFL is read by A LOT OF PEOPLE who don’t even know or care who Tim Challies is. I’m thinking the Benevolent Dictator of SFL will find a way to bring this up on SFL and light a fire under Challies in a way that will be most uncomfortable. But I’m not surprised Challies deleted Dow. It’s typical of Challies’ obnoxious hubris.
Tikatu
I think I may add your comment to the above post. Thanks.
Hester – good luck on getting through the “Detweiler docs.” I chose to read excerpts only for a number of reasons – the 1st being that I have old friends who are still members at CLC and Sov. Grace Fairfax. As I have my own issues, I just didn’t need to see all the stuff that might be triggering for me, both about my friends *and* that would remind me of what I went through.
somewhat ironically – one of my SGM friends saw right through what the people at That Church did to me, and 99% of what they said to me about it was super-accurate. It’s so hard to see the forest for the trees sometimes… (i.e., afaik, this person is still part of SGM Fairfax, unless there have been some very recent changes re. that.)
Dee,
I just had quite a chuckle.
Guess who's coming to speak at the upcomIng 20/20 Conference at SEBTS?
C.J. Mahaney
It's just 100 days away according to the countdown. The LOVEFEST continues . . .
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@Nick Bulbeck, this was actually coming from a couple different guys. One was the preacher for the on-campus worship service, the other was the new college minister at the church I attended. Both guys were young (late 20’s-early 30’s), married to attractive women, not long out of Baptist seminaries. The on-campus minister was married to his worship leader who was successful in her own right. Matt Chandler was a frequent guest speaker at the on-campus worship service. I had not heard any of this nonsense prior to my last year of college. For whatever it’s worth, I live and attended a secular college in the deep South where the predominant denomination is usually Southern Baptist (might as well be called Southern SGM now).
Southwestern Discomfort:
Remember both Hyper-Calvinism and Wahabi (Saudi) Islam are heavily into God's Sovereignty and Predestination. Both Calvin and al-Wahab were heavily into Restoring the Pure True Faith which had been corrupted and apostatized between its founding and their time. Both believed the Faith should rule as the State.
And both are into Women Shall Dress Modestly. Remember the news story years ago about the fire at a girl's school in Saudi with lots of fatalities? How when girls tried to flee the burning building, whip-wielding Religious Police ("Suppressors of Vice and Promoters of Virtue") whipped them back into the flames because they weren't dressed modestly enough?
HUG – not all Saudis are Wahabis by a long shot; quite a number are moderate Sunnis, and there are even Shi’ia Muslims there as well. (Mostly low-paid workers from nearby countries in the last case.)
I have known some Saudis who were only nominally Muslim – and they were *not* oil sheik types by any means.
@ Mandy:
“The one thing that really got me annoyed was when he said ‘guys, be careful about spending too much time with girls who arenât your girlfriends. When you speak with girls one on one, their first thought is “oh my gosh he likes me, i wonder if heâs going to ask me out” so you need to be cautious if you donât want to marry her.'”
Yes! This is exactly what these women were talking about, only about girls not talking too much with boys. Most of them were mothers of middle schoolers or young high schoolers. Apparently their girls are allowed to have male friends, but only interact with them in person – they aren’t allowed to text them or have male FB friends because the parents can’t “monitor” these media. They also used the phrase “guarding your heart” to a head-exploding degree (insert barfing emoticon here).
Now I don’t object to parents paying attention to their kids’ friendships, but there are SO many negative things wrapped up in “guarding your heart” – the idea that you’ve committed “adultery” by having a crush on a boy because he’s another woman’s future husband (no assumptions there AT ALL), the idea that your father needs to “guard your heart” for you, etc.
I’ve encountered these people before, of course (I grew up in the homeschool community, how could I not), but it still p***es me off every time… I had no female friends (except one on the other side of the country) during my middle school years because I wasn’t girly enough for the other girls. It’s seriously only in the past few years (I’m now 22!) that females my own age have started to acknowledge my existence to any meaningful degree. So these people are essentially advocating for my friendlessness and loneliness under the guise of “Biblical” principles about “not awakening love before its time.” Sorry, but two words: Bull. Crap.
Never mind that by striving desperately to “not awaken love before its time,” these people are doing exactly that by sexualizing boy-girl friendships that 90% of the time, weren’t sexual to begin with. Imagine being the poor girl who just wants to talk to her guy friend (whom she was allowed to have before puberty because they “didn’t have hormones” then), but is now told by her parents that she can’t because she has to “guard her heart” and “intimate conversations can only lead one place.” So now you have two innocent kids, already caught up in pubescent hormonal changes that are hellish enough to begin with, now being given the extra curveball of being told there is “more” to their relationship than they even realized. Their parents, meanwhile, will have ruined a perfectly good friendship because of THEIR hangups and self-control issues/baggage. Sorry, but in my universe, you’re not allowed to do that to another person…and I don’t really give a damn that you happened to give birth to/sire them. (Note I’m talking parents interfering with normal, healthy friendships, not destructive ones, which would be a problem no matter the gender of the participants.)
Also, how these people think their kids are ever going to have a healthy relationship with their spouse if they’re not allowed to interact with people of the opposite sex is beyond me…let alone how some of the more extreme forms of “emotional purity” can possibly lead to a healthy marital sex life. I mean, do they really expect these poor kids to go from hand-holding to sex in one night? Talk about discouraging. They put you through the abstinence circuit all through high school, keeping you on board with the “consummation will blow your mind” sales pitch, but then they limit physical affection to such a point that it might cripple you on your wedding night. So much for “mind-blowing.” (There are multiple stories online of courtship couples who had disastrous, embarrassing wedding nights because of these “Biblical principles”… And no, I am NOT advocating premarital sex!)
…(long frustrated sigh)… Sorry for the rant. But these people really have p***ed me off since I was about 13.
Hester – I’ve had the singularly humiliating experience of being in my *30s* and *still* getting that line about not awakening love, etc.
xtian culture infantilizes everyone who isn’t married, imo.
@ Beaker:
“This just paints women as simple-minded marriage machines, who will marry anyone nice enough to talk to them. Or it could paint some men as arroagant enough to think all the ladies would like to marry them.
Some of these ideas are ultra-Freudian â the idea that all relationships are either legitmately sexual or illegitimately sexual, no space for gendered-but-non-sexual interaction. When I see the shennanigans of those who put these ideas forward mostly I see males (sorry, not against males, just these particular ones) who donât seem to want to develop any self-control.”
You’re right, it’s demeaning to both men and women. Men are hypersexual walking phalluses who completely lose their capacity to make rational decisions as soon as they see something pretty (sorry to be crude but that’s what it ultimately boils down to); and women are just silly emotional fluffheads who fall in love with anything male that smiles at them and says “Good morning.” Both those descriptions, I think most sensible people would agree, sound much more like The Twilight Zone than reality.
Interesting that you’ve mostly heard men promulgate this idea. I’ve heard it come mostly from mothers. They always mean well – they don’t want their kids to get dumped, hurt, pregnant, etc., and they want a foolproof “Christian” way to prevent that from happening. Except, you’re never promised a foolproof way to prevent pain and trials in Scripture…in fact, often you’re promised the exact opposite. The early Christians certainly had much bigger problems than whether their girlfriend had just ditched them. Like being fed to lions and crucified.
Hester – yes on your most recent post as well.
Hester,
I could have written that rant, everything from being pissed off about it at 13 to not being girly enough to have any girl friends. I always identified more with the boys, but I was discouraged from having friendships with them because of “Oh noes! The horrmooonessszzz”
The ridiculous purity culture views every teen as a sex crazed maniac who can’t possibly talk to or look at a member of the opposite gender without jumping all over them and going at it like monkeys. (That’s actually insulting to monkeys, many species have a complex courtship ritual that takes place before any copulation… they don’t just look at each other and “go at it”.)
Has anyone besides me seen the South Park episode where the homeschooled kids who want to go to public school are ultra-smart but have no social skills and/or sense of boundaries?
it’s very compassionate towards those kids, btw – maybe the best thing i’ve ever seen on the topic. (though profane, like all of SP, but i really don’t mind. đ
Searching and Hester – you sound like you could be *my* kids, though I hope to God that I wouldn’t have raised you in those circles!
. When I see the shennanigans of those who put these ideas forward mostly I see males (sorry, not against males, just these particular ones) who donât seem to want to develop any self-control.â
This is how Islam operates. It is the woman’s fault for turning them on. That is why the woman is stoned or beheaded for losing her virginity before marriage when she was raped. The men are not expected to have self control.
Numo, the church I grew up in was infected with that way of thought. I wasn't an adult (not a real adult) until I was married. Never mind that I was grown, had a job, supported myself, had a car, had an apartment, etc. etc… all the things that are considered to be marks of an adult person in society. I didn't have my "Mrs", so I wasn't a real person.
When I got married, the change in how I was treated was so radically different, it was like a switch flipped and suddenly I was a person! With thoughts of my own! Unreal.
@ Numo:
I’m so sick of that verse… Interestingly Song of Solomon 2 seems to be replacing 1 Corinthians 13 as a standard reading at (non-liturgical) conservative Christian weddings, at least the ones I’ve been to. I don’t know if this is their way of being racy/sexy, or what. (After all, one of the instances of the “awakening love” phrase is only a verse or two after the infamous, Driscoll-approved “sitting-under-my-love-and-eating-his-fruit” verse…)
Dudes(-esses), I’m in my mid-50s and have never married. thus, i never attained full adulthood in That Church, or in any other that thought in that way.
it’s VERY demeaning. have only been happy about myself and state in life since recovering from getting booted, which happened 10 years ago… recovery is still ongoing, though am through the worst, I believe…)
Searching – Freudian slip, eh?
Anon 1 – I think you could say the same about followers of most religions – Islam is actually not at all monolithic, and the cultures of Muslim/predominantly countries are quite varied.
Yes, it IS true of SOME Muslims, but by no means all. and it seems much more the norm in countries where few people have anything beyond a basic grade school education – *if* they have that.
Example: the Taliban originated among the Pashtun hill tribe. the post-Soviet power vacuum – unfortunately – favored their ascendance. now Afghans of all backgrounds are in the Taliban, though it still seems very Pashtun at its core.
@ Searching:
“I could have written that rant, everything from being pissed off about it at 13 to not being girly enough to have any girl friends. I always identified more with the boys, but I was discouraged from having friendships with them because of ‘Oh noes! The horrmooonessszzz'”
I still to this day get the impression the many of the other parents in the homeschool group didn’t/don’t know quite what to do with me… I was friends with their sons and on the one hand, that made some of them kinda nervous because THE WHOREMONEZ! But on the other hand, some of them didn’t quite want me to be friends with their daughters, either, because I might be a bad influence. I was, after all, “out of control” because my parents let me have my own opinion at 13, and I played with dinosaurs instead of dolls. (Even at 14/15 I knew Vision Forum was populated by varying shades of legalistic freaks even if I didn’t know why.) I can’t prove any of this, of course, but I always seemed to be slightly out of step and awkward in some circles. In the end I still emerged with two or three good guy friends and no really good girl friends, so maybe headstrong daughters were more frightening to them than hormones in the final analysis…
meant to say that the Taliban’s ideas about Islam come directly from Pashtun cultural and religious practices. They use proof-texting of the Qur’an and hadith in the same way that xtian fundies use the same tactics with the Bible.
SW Discomfort, Darrell described the incident on the SFL Facebook page and was called out by more than one commenter for attempting to “derail” the discussion on Challies’s blog. He equated Challies’s action to the fundy techniques he’s so familiar with even though the YRR/SBC/evangelical circles are supposed to be so different.
Believe me, the SGM mess has not escaped SFL’s eye, though I doubt it’ll make the actual blog — at least, not while the Jack Schaap/FBC Hammond saga continues to unfold. Check out the forums for the discussion there.
When I got married, the change in how I was treated was so radically different, it was like a switch flipped and suddenly I was a person! With thoughts of my own! Unreal. — Searching
The last time this subject surfaced over at Internet Monk, one of the comments in the thread put it this way:
“Then you get married and are allowed to sit at the grown-up’s table with the other grown-ups.”
Others spoke of Christians so desperate to get married (and sit with the other grown-ups) that they were searching for “A Wife(TM)” and the girl was just an interchangeable piece of equipment to achiever that.
Me? I figured this might be one of the reasons why Evangelicals have such a high divorce rate. When you’re THAT desperate to get married and under that much pressure to, you’ll grab for the first opposite-sex warm body you come across, just to Get Married and finally be accepted. No matter who or what he/she is. And that does not sound like a recipe for a long-term marriage.
HUG: “Me? I figured this might be one of the reasons why Evangelicals have such a high divorce rate. When youâre THAT desperate to get married and under that much pressure to, youâll grab for the first opposite-sex warm body you come across, just to Get Married and finally be accepted. No matter who or what he/she is. And that does not sound like a recipe for a long-term marriage.”
That and the “Wait for marriage to have sex and it will be the Most Mind Blowing Awesome Thing EVAARRRRrrrrr!” formula. Mix in some rigid sexual rules (No looking! No touching! No thinking! Thinking a girl is pretty is a sin!), add some messed up modesty rules (If you wear a skirt that’s too short, you’re a slut! Pants? WHORE. Laugh too loudly? You’re drawing inappropriate attention to yourself and you’re obviously trying to seduce the men around you, Jezebel!) add two people who were raised in that environment together, and see what happens when they go from 0 to 100 in one stressful night! No way that will cause any problems in the bedroom for the newly married clueless couple. I’m sure everything will work out in the end. After all, the newly appointed patriarch can just make his wife submit to his every sexual whim, and she’ll do it because let’s face it, women are actually whores at heart that have nothing better to do than fulfill all of their husband’s dirty little fantasties that have been storing up for years, and years, and years!
One more thing on Denny Burk’s blog…
If the comments are representative of American evangelicalism, then I want absolutely nothing to do with it. One dude compared Rachel to Satan – I can’t even comprehend how sick you have to be to think that way.
When I look around at Burk, CJ, SGM, Mohler, Piper, Challies, Driscoll. Justin Taylor….makes me sick to my stomach. They can use the word gospel 1,000 times in a 1,000 different ways. But, they’re promoting their culture, their own form of politics, and their own systems of power. I used to think it was due to pride. Now I’m starting to think they’re maybe just ignorant. Even worse, they’re probably both.
@ScotT – ooh those DB blog comments were just…words fail me. I think I have to watch some South Park now for a mental wash-out, they’re much more tame.
ScotT wrote
One more thing on Denny Burkâs blogâŚ
If the comments are representative of American evangelicalism, then I want absolutely nothing to do with it. One dude compared Rachel to Satan â I canât even comprehend how sick you have to be to think that way.
I am sickened at this, and agree with you re. American evangelicalism, twisted thinking – all of it.
(Which is one of many reasons that I’m a happy revert to Lutheranism.)
Haitch – hey, that’s one of the reasons I watch South Park, too! (not j/k; I can laugh in relief after reading the painful stories posted on TWW and similar blogs.)
@numo and the other funny thing is that I’ve been such a square that I couldn’t do South Park and these crazies now make me crave SP !
I watched “All God’s Children” on YouTube this morning and my heart just aches. Need something to lighten the mood. Maybe I’ll pull out Black Books or Father Ted (again). Best scene is Bill Bailey’s ablution scene in the bathtub with the hairdryer on and making toast. Very silly. Also my Treme DVD’s (HBO) – might pull them out too. I love me some Treme. Any other suggestions appreciated !
Haitch – I think I would have been very offended if I'd tried watching South park when it first aired, but now – Well, howdy hi!!! đ
Haitch – I like the music on Treme, but I gave up on it during season 2, when Khandi Alexander’s character was assaulted. Just too much to take. (I didn’t watch that ep.)
mmm, season 2 was a bummer all round and that was a horrific scene. She does get the chance to lay in the boot on him later, small good though it was. I think they should have left it at season 1. Music was brilliant.
Bill Bailey in the bath – superb!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhpH9JhNZ04
Hester
This comment has the makings of a post. Would you consider doing one, based on your experiences?
Numo
One day these men are going to have to answer for the marginalization of women in the church-especially the alienation of single women. You have so much to offer the faith but priggish men prevented it. I am so sorry.
Tikatu
I am setting up a page that will post comments deleted or not allowed from other blogs. Just doing my part to keep the info stream alive!
HUG
Awesome.Â
“I figured this might be one of the reasons why Evangelicals have such a high divorce rate. When youâre THAT desperate to get married and under that much pressure to, youâll grab for the first opposite-sex warm body you come across, just to Get Married and finally be accepted. No matter who or what he/she is. And that does not sound like a recipe for a long-term marriage.”
ScotT
I, too, believe they are ignorant. They have substituted their brand of doctrinalism for love and grace. Jesus had no use for the Pharisees. We now have our 21st century brand of Pharisees- they may have tattoos, drink microbrews, and speak lingo but make no mistake, they are Pharisees. The Bible speaks of the remnant of the faithful in every age. Look for that remnant. There are quite a few who visit this blog!
This —–> “If the comments are representative of American evangelicalism, then I want absolutely nothing to do with it. One dude compared Rachel to Satan â I canât even comprehend how sick you have to be to think that way.”
I am just wondering why they continually miss the whole point of her book. Then, again, when I was a patriarchalist, er, um, excuse me, a complementarian, I drank that Koolaid and believed whatever the high powers that be told me to believe. If you are so threatened by someone who comes to different conclusions than you regarding Scripture, then you must not be very sure of your faith.
No More Perfect
They do not care what her book is about. They just need one more target to “prove” liberals are invading the church. I fully expect to see the following comments on the blogs. “I would never read such an ungodly book. I will only read Mary Kassian…”
Dee – there are one hell of a lot of priggish women in the equation, too!!!
That Church’s culture wasn’t nearly as patriarchal as SGM’s – sort of “soft comp.” Even so, some people flaunt their married status.
Vanity is a human failing, after all… just like wanting to find a scapegoat and/or group of people to kick around, though in the latter case, I think LGBT folks are the ones who *really* bear the brunt of it.
The siege mentalty that modern fundagelcials has reminds me of what I read of Joseph McCarthyâs infamous witchhunts for communists of the 1950s. — Eagle
And the Purges for Capitalists and Reactionaries under Comrade Stalin. And all the Witch Hunts and Smelling-Outs before those.
Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory is coming into effect, after which their siege mentality becomes a completely-closed system, completely self-referential. Where evidence against The Conspiracy becomes PROOF of The Conspiracy. Where lack of evidence for The Conspiracy becomes PROOF of The Conspiracy. “THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”
Awesome. — Dee
âI figured this might be one of the reasons why Evangelicals have such a high divorce rate. When youâre THAT desperate to get married and under that much pressure to, youâll grab for the first opposite-sex warm body you come across, just to Get Married and finally be accepted. No matter who or what he/she is. And that does not sound like a recipe for a long-term marriage.â
There’s another factor involved, Dee. Christianese ideas as to what makes a couple compatible.
Once during a Christian Singles retreat (on a cruise ship, no less), I was told directly by the main speaker that the only thing that matters in a Christian marriage is “Common SCRIPTURAL Values, Common SCRIPTURAL Values, Common SCRIPTURAL Values”. Nothing about emotional companionship or initial attraction factors. In fact, initial attraction factors (looks, personality, common interests, and what Rabbi Boteach called “the seven dimensions of a woman — her voice, feel, scent, taste, looks, personality, and soul”) were denounced as Fleshly and Worldly. The only thing that mattered was what I can only interpret as Perfectly Parsed Theology.
And Perfectly Parsed Theology does not sound like what would forge a strong long-term bond between male and female. Unless you’re like two Communist Party Ideologists – “Our Duty to The Party (TM).”
Spin…
Plausible Deniability…
Why do these churches bring to mind the terminology of Political Corruption and Dirty Tricks?
It’s not only in Christian circles that you get this kind of thing – by which I mean superstition, ideology and guesswork presented as teaching. To give but one example; the “nutrition” industry, which is more or less unregulated in the UK, makes a lot of money out of quackery and junk science presented as science, usually by models in labcoats.
But I stray… In the areas of sexuality, relationships and marriage, it seems to me that the church hasn’t yet fully recovered from centuries of theocratic rule by (in significant measure) a celibate clergy. There’s something vitally important about an eldership that actually obeys the biblical “prime directive” of eldership, namely not to rule by diktat but to lead by example.
20-something is really too young to be teaching on marriage. There is much better stuff out there, though.
(… unhits the Post Comment button, and continues with…)
A celibate clergy cannot hope to present biblical teaching on marriage. That, if I understand matters aright, is because truly biblical teaching is not the processing of scriptures into lectures. It is the giving out of living water from the innermost being, and that can only be done by someone who’s lived the process through death and resurrection.
“Anon 1 â I think you could say the same about followers of most religions â Islam is actually not at all monolithic, and the cultures of Muslim/predominantly countries are quite varied.”
I agree with you especially since I have quite a few extended family members who are missionaries in Muslim countries. Some quite dangerous. However, the Quran is not benign. It says what it says and there is no “peace” if one does not convert. I have heard you defend Islam before. How do you square such a thing as leaning liberal with how women are treated overall in Islam? I have never understood how liberals have reconciled their defense of Islam with their problems with how fundys treat women. I thin they are on the same side of the coin.
Numo, Also, my cousin speaks Pashtun and spent quite a bit of time over there after we were allowed in. She brought back contraband films she took in a land rover while visiting one city there. One was of a woman being beat by a man with a large stick near a market. I mean it looked the consistency of a long walking stick. No one dared intervene. Everyone just walked by like it was an every day occurence. It was chilling. it would be a miracle if her ankles were not broken. She just stood there and took it.
Pray for the lost women of Islam. They have no choices.
the only thing that matters in a Christian marriage is âCommon SCRIPTURAL Values, Common SCRIPTURAL Values, Common SCRIPTURAL Valuesâ
God disagrees.
I know this for a fact because of the way He engineered my marriage from the get go, actually from well before. He knew who He wanted me to marry and was quite concerned that I find my husband attractive. This was important as my husband (whom I had yet to meet) fell outside my preferences in 2 areas. Through an interesting sequence of events at a church function He dealt with both of them at once. Thus I was unhindered from finding my husband attractive in these areas when it was time for him to enter my life. Neither of these areas had anything whatsoever to do with common Scriptural values. God made it very clear He is concerned that we find our spouses attractive and pleasing in other areas besides common Scriptural values.
HUG: I could imagine that would be preached at churches where they have a particular brand of doctrine to promote. If False Gospel Woman marries False Gospel Man, then they’ll produce False Gospel children without stress or conflict and said children can help Take Dominion Of America! More numbers for the army.
If the marriage goes wrong in the meantime, they’ll just tell them that God hates divorce and everything is because the wife isn’t submitting enough. Marriage therapy in a can.
Anon 1, I had a big long reply for you and accidentally deleted it!
I think I’ll try and rewrite off-list and post it later.
Bedrock, though: I have friends who’ve been working on Bible translation in several predominantly Muslim countries for many years. I learned a *lot* from them about not prejudging peoples’ beliefs and lives… and frankly, I know supposed xtians who are very bit as horrible to their families as the man in the film who beat his wife with the stick (horrific, no question!!!) and Muslims who are probably the most peaceful, tolerant people I’ve *ever* met. (many of them are accomplished professional women, too.)
Islam is not monolithic re. beliefs (other than the basic statement of faith + the 5 pillars, though there are sects that add other things to the pillars), jurisprudence, language, or much of anything else. A lot of Muslims come from highly pluralistic societies (India, parts of East and southern Africa, southeast Asia, parts of the M.E.) where *many* religions are practiced. Frankly, those folks have a lot ore interest in what xtians believe – and more respect for those who live out their faith (same for Jewish people) than most supposed “xtians” ahve for those of differing doctrinal persuasions.
My pals who work as translators are running into some real roadblocks – in terms of thigns that need to be explained to readers unfamiliar w/the bible – now as they are working on some excerpts from the OT. Most of the folks who read their drafts and comment (also do proofing and editing) are native speakers (Muslims). My friends said in their latest update that several of their readers are deeply shocked by the violence in the OT and the apparent cruelty on God’s part, asking where is the mercy, love and compassion? (i.e., that they were taught about God, as Muslims.) I can’t say I blame them for their reactions, and I have problems with a lot of the same passages – even books (like the genocide in Joshua) myself.
I do find it interesting that I’m seen as a “liberal” by some here, but I guess i do qualify… though labels don;’t mean much to me, and I don’t much care about them in. re. myself. đ
Hope that help[s – I could go into more, but will save it for later. this turned into an essay as is! đ
Also… I would not for a second doubt that you could easily find plenty of supposed xtians in the West (including central and South America) who treat women and children every bit as badly as the beaten woman was treated. I am *not* saying that to justify such behavior, only to point out that it exists and that the West is far from blameless, no matter how “advanced” we think we are. (Take the history of the M.E. and set it side-by-side with European history and the history of the Americas and I *don’t* think we get any prizes for being more “civilized.”)
xtianity has shifted, anyway, in terms of populations who are
Whoops – “populations” referring to the shift of professing xtians in the world from the US< Canda and Europe to developing countries everywhere. In other words, the world face of xtianity is no longer white, nor – in certain regions – has it ever been. (Ethiopia and south india, for example, not to mention the Middle East. ;))
I am reading the lawsuit filing in Montgomery Court. I do wonder if this will be a public or private hearing based on the individuals involved? Will the transcripts of the hearing become public at some point, or are they sealed to protect the minors or victims? I hope that the legal counsel for these girls will be able to admit into evidence the many communications from SGM even over the past several months regarding their responses to all this. Some of it will definitely be incriminating and help prove the case. Just my two cents.
After reading the complaint of “Robin Roe”, I hope all these fools get locked up and that they throw away the keys. This is unbelievable!
Numo, I still do not understand why people want to compare Islam with the OT when we are living in the New Covenant and Islam was invented in the New Covenant. It kinda sorta stops any meaningful convo. And no, I don’t think Christians are just as bad. Even patriarchal ones because if they beheaded women here, they would be in prison.
Well, OK – let me put it this way. It is a different religion, full stop. it has nothing to do with the old covenant vs. the new covenant, imo.
I honestly am not sure I understand the reasoning behind your beliefs re. Islam and the new covenant, etc. Abuse is abuse is abuse, no matter who commits it, and no matter what they do or don’t know.
but this all gets into very deep waters re. cultures, interpretations of the Qur’an and the hadith, etc. etc. and there is just not space enough in *any* comment to try and address all of that. People have written many books and still not come close.
If you cannot accept what those readers say, then why? They are unfamiliar with the bible – period. They do *not* have any context, and previous translations into their language contain many, many errors (linguistic errors, are basically unreadable, etc.).
How can anyone translate without getting information and input from those for whom they are translating?
I wish i could put you in touch with my friends, as they would be the ones to speak with, in general 9re. the questions you just posed) and for details of life and culture where they are as well. I wish I could be more helpful with that, but i do not have the experience that they do in language, culture and daily life – let alone in addressing the needs of the people around them.
I hope that makes some sense!
Let me put the 1st part of my most recent reply another way: for Jewish people, there is still only one covenant.
Does that make *their* beliefs and perspectives any less real or valuable?
It is much too complicated, I agree. I just do not understand the view of liberals and this need to accept Islam as multicultural when it is so degrading to women. We discuss this all the time when it comes to fundys but there is this real push back if something is said about Islam. And the problem is the Quran does affirm it. In fact, one of the laments of Bin Laden was that more Muslims did not know and follow the Quran.
Jay Smith is an Islamic scholar in London and has some great teaching vids on a youtube channel called pfister films. He has many Muslim friends and debates them all the time in Hyde Park. He knows the Quran inside and out. It is NOT a religion of peace. It is a religion of subjugation. Ali Hirish is a great source also for the effects of Islam on women.Her books are important She has had to go into hiding even though she escaped to Holland. Her life was in danger there from Muslims for speaking out!
One of the ironies is that the hated Laura Bush took on this issue and is still working on it. Where are the liberals when it comes to Muslim women????
“Let me put the 1st part of my most recent reply another way: for Jewish people, there is still only one covenant.
Does that make *their* beliefs and perspectives any less real or valuable?”
I would not know how to put a “value” on their beliefs. I would think they are valued as humans made in God’s image as are Muslims. They, the Jews, are still waiting for Messiah even though many are secular Jews and rarely give that part of it a thought.
Which brings me to ask why so many liberals do not seem to value Muslim women as they defend Islam and tend to lean toward the view that anyone saying anything negative about it as “hating Muslims”. It is just the opposite.
Eagle
I cannot! There is no widget function that let’s me do it. I wanted to!
Anon 1 – I feel like I have been trying to answer your questions.
I am sorry that we seem to be misunderstanding one another.
all the best to you!
n.
One other thought is that I believe *many* societies are in great need of change regarding the treatment of women and children, child labor, care for the elderly,e tc.
But the change needs to come from the inside. I believe that greater access to education (public schools, but also medical and other practical skill-type education) can potentially make a great difference.
Most people in this world are trying to survive from day to day, and I think it is *very* hard for most N. Americans and Europeans to understand what’s going on “on the ground” in other parts of the world. We are unbelievably rich and privileged, though we (I) do not realize it or have much awareness of it. What we (I) take for granted regarding housing, appliances, etc. is almost unimaginable luxury for most of the people in this world.
” In wake of Sandusky scandal, Penn State holds child sex abuse conference:”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/27/us-usa-pennstate-abuse-idUSBRE89Q06W20121027
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In the wake of the SGM lawsuit SEBTS holds conference and invites “the gifted” CJ Mahaney to speak to young people:
http://www.sebts.edu/news-resources/conferences/20-20_collegiate_conf/default.aspx
PSU Removes Key Players Who Were Complicit
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SGM Works To Keep Complicit Staff on Board, Allows CJ To Take SGM & Relocate
PSU Begins Tough Task of Healing Following Swift Reprisals
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Unrepentant SGM Issues Statement That Denies Allegations, Characterizing Them As False & Misleading.
PSU Forces President to Face the Music
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SGM President Flees Country With Approval From Board As News of Lawsuit Breaks. Coincidence?
Evie
When I saw your last line there I thought, oh, have I missed some news? So I googled “SGM President Flees Country”.
The first line to display in the search engine is “Idi Amin Biography”.
So there you go.
Which brings me to ask why so many liberals do not seem to value Muslim women as they defend Islam and tend to lean toward the view that anyone saying anything negative about it as âhating Muslimsâ. — Anon1
1) Because Islam isn’t CHRISTIAN. It’s Exotic.
2) Islam is the religion of those Poor Brown Third Worlders, NOT the Rich White Capitalist Imperialist First Worlders.
3) Get Whitey! Stick it to The Man!
4) We’re Still Mad at Mommy & Daddy for saying “NO!” to us, and that goes for their Imaginary Sky Fairy, too.
Regarding the initial post and the defendants named in the lawsuit, Frank Ecelbarger used to be a pastor at the SGM church in Fairfax, VA. I believe he was one of the pastors who was “de-gifted.”
lol Haitch that’s hilarious. It just so happened that CJ was in Germany when the lawsuit hit the news. I’d say he was able to avoid the spotlight at a time when he would have been sought after for comment. He has still not issued a statement. And this coming from a guy who went to all the effort to be reinstated. You’d think he’d show some courage since he’s been exonerated, right? Instead he seems to be hiding out, staying in the shadows. And I think he probably had a relatively good idea of when the lawsuit would hit the news. That’s why I said he left the country. It’s my theory it was no coincidence. Mahaney is slick.
Possibly related?
A “breakout session” scheduled for the Pastor’s Conference.
“All pastors need evaluation, whether it is to ordain them to ministry or to help them improve or to handle charges of wrongdoing.”
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/John-Loftness-Evaluating-Pastors-Common-Mistakes-What-Weve-Learned-and-What-Scripture-Calls-Us-To-(Audio).aspx