James MacDonald/Mark Driscoll: Sacrificial Servants or Serving It Up

“Not fond of sordid gain”- One of the requirements for deacons at a Harvest Bible Chapel

yvonne and joel trimble-Haiti for Christ.
Yvonne and Joel Trimble
Haiti for Christ

Update to post 7:40 PM

From Yvonne 

FYI: the PaP airport reopened on February 17, 2010. The crusade that I am referring to was held on the one year anniversary of the earthquake January 12, 2011! The airport was not only open AA airlines has 5 flights a day from Miami and Fort Lauderdale. Delta flies from NY and Atlanta. There are and were on the day of the one year anniversary plenty of flights with open seats for these men that knew of the crusade over 6 months in advance. Did I tell you they arrived with body guards? Imagine how that makes me, a lowly woman, feel. After all I raised my four children in Haiti, two of them were born here. I have never carried a gun or had a body guard. I have prayed a lot and learned to depend 100% upon the Lord not only for my physical protection but for my financial support.

This will make sense after you read the post and comments.


 

Over the weekend, I received an email from Yvonne Trimble who is with the mission group “Haiti for Christ.”  Last January,  we did a post Mark Driscoll/Acts 29: Haiti Relief Denied Because of a Woman Preacher Link. Here is a short synopsis of her encounter with Mark Driscoll.

"My husband and I are missionary evangelists and have lived in Haiti since 1975. Two of our four children and one of our nine grandchildren were born there. We host Haiti’s most popular TV show that features the beauty of Haiti with a gospel message. Currently we are aired in 13 US Haitian markets and over 100 TV stations in Haiti. We do not pay for airtime as our content is in such demand.Over 2 million Haitians, all age groups and economic strata, view our show.

We came in contact with Mark Driscoll shortly after the quake I had posted a comment on an Act 29 blog. Mark Driscoll via Acts 29 gave to the one-year anniversary which we organized and hosted. 100K Haitians answered our call to worship in front of the ruined Palais Nationale.

Driscoll arrived in a private plane, I picked him up and he wanted to leave when the crowd was peaking. I sent a Haitian driver to take him back to the airport as I was not leaving the outpouring of God’s Spirit.

Not long after that Driscoll flew us to Orlando he wanted us to head up their Acts 29 mission work in Haiti since they had no experienced missionaries and we are experienced soul winners. Right before we were “signed on” to their 400 supporting churches, something we really could use. I said, “Wait I preach. I planted an English worship service in my living room for missionaries and business people.” That brought a icy response from Grudem, Mark’s right hand man, and it was the last we heard from them.

They needed us in Haiti but when they realized we were egalitarian they dropped us like a hot potato! We were crushed: innocent and in need of the fellowship and financial support. “

I found myself irritated at Driscoll. At the time, every pastor and famous actor (or are they one and the same?) made the obligatory trip to Haiti to show “compassion” for the destitute in that devastated country.

Just as Driscoll was about throw some Acts29 money in their direction, the brakes were put on because Yvonne, who has given her life in service to the people of Haiti, made the “heretical” mistake of preaching. Please read the full story in which we share our thoughts on the matter.

However, there was more to this story. Here is the email that Yvonne sent to me yesterday. I have the distinct feeling that we are not the only ones to be made aware of the following wretched event. This will not sell well in the court of public opinion.

"My husband Joel and I are missionaries in Port Au Prince Haiti. We have served here as soul winning missionary evangelists since 1975. We produce, direct and host a Creole Christian TV show that proclaims the uncompromising word of God to 2,000,000 viewers daily. After the 2010 earthquake that brought Haiti to international attention, I posted a comment on a Churches Helping Churches blog.

Months later a CHC representative Tom Kim contacted me that he would be in Haiti and wanted to meet us. The short of this story is that CHC funded a city-wide crusade organized by my husband Joel Trimble. NPR reporters estimated the attendance at 100,000 Haitians.

Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald flew into Port au Prince the morning of the event on Bob Coy’s, Calvary Chapel Ft. Lauderdale, private jet. I picked them up at the airport. They traveled with body guards, film crews were already on site. They spoke for 15 minutes each and left the crusade before the crowd peaked. I sent a driver to return them to the airport.

In the months following the historic crusade Mark Driscoll flew us to a Resurgence Conference in Orlando where Elliot Grudem was assigned to sign us on as Acts 29 missionaries in Haiti. Please note we never received any personal support or remuneration from either of these men or their organizations. All systems were go until I told him, “I preach.” The pushback was confounding for men with no mission experience and no evident burden for the lost. Uncompromisingly complementarian and unashamed filthy lucre."

Here is her devastating assessment of James MacDonald and his participation in this event.

“I am not surprised that James MacDonald is a money man sidling up to TDJakes.

True Pharisees strain at a gnat and swallow a camel, thus MacDonald arrives in the world’s poorest country aboard a private jet yet disdains the 35 year soul-winning service of a woman who obeys God’s written word to preach the gospel to the poor.

Egalitarianism will not put you in hell but the love of money will! Complementarianism is not scripturally or biblically supported. It is American culture; as is the prosperity gospel to which MacDonald gravitates. As Jesus Christ healed on the wrong day for the Pharisees, I have obeyed and preached from the wrong gender. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees!”

Note how she perceives MacDonald and Driscoll. These are rich men who arrive in a private jet, complete with body guards and film crews. They spoke for a whopping 15 minutes each and then took off back to their aircraft.

She had served these men, picking them up at the airport and arranging for others to take them back when they needed to leave after speaking for 30 minutes. They had apparently offered some potential financial help which was withdrawn since a woman, who has sacrificed herself by living in the poverty of Haiti, just like her Savior chose to live among the poor, had the audacity to preach.

I wonder. Could they have possibly decreased their entourage by one person and thrown a little money in her direction as a taxi tip? Women can drive taxis, can't they?

MacDonald teaches on money

In the meantime, it is business as usual at Harvest Bible Fellowship (HBF). MacDonald, emerging from his lovely mansion, decided to give his people some tips on money management.

I took a look through the extensive online website of Harvest Bible Fellowship (HBF). Lo and behold, on October 15, 2012, MacDonald has made a resource available on how to be “wise” with your money. Please visit the following link in which you can listen to MacDonald talking about the dangers of money. Could he be talking from experience?

Here is the synopsis on WISE UP ABOUT MONEY – PART 1

“Money — blessing or curse? Check out what the book of Proverbs says about money and how you should handle it. James MacDonald teaches on this important subject area with candor and practical insights that can transform your family.

When every voice in this crazy world wants to push you into its pattern, the Bible tells you the truth . . . about what brings satisfaction, about the power of friendship, about the allure of money, about what will enslave you. Come study the book of Proverbs with James MacDonald and learn how to make the choices that will make you wise.”

Is MacDonald the permanent man in charge at HBF, no matter what?

Is MacDonald being questioned by his elder board? It seems like some have left the church. Could it be due to statements like the following? At the following website, Barkma link, I found a report of this unbelievable comment. (MacDonald sounds a lot like his buddy Driscoll. )

MacDonald said to the elder board in a meeting:

“If you want to remove me, you’re going to have to sue me to get me out of here.  And gentlemen, I have two things you don’t have: control of the pulpit and the control of the money.  So good luck.”

There seems to be some monetary needs at HBF.

At this link on the financial needs of HBF, we learn that money is a bit tight.

"We have prayed, consulted with leaders, selected and prayed some more about what and how to share these needs with you. We have reached capacity in regards to budget, so(to) pursue these things right in front of us, we need help. We are passionately pursuing Christ's promise to build His church and pursuing qualified opportunities to support new church planters, help existing churches and provide more resources to our pastors."

A suggestion for those in churches with globe trotting, high living pastors.

Jesus modeled true leadership. He was the suffering servant who drew people to him by His alternative lifestyle. This servant had no place to lay his head. He could have traveled Israel on the wings of angels and built Himself a mansion like never seen. Yet, He chose to live life amongst His people, the poor, the outcast and the noninfluential. He didn’t seem to have much regard for those who reveled in their wealth.

Frankly, I am tired of the stories of some pastors and their access to private planes, million dollar homes, expensive clothes, and entourages consisting of body-guards and film crews.

I anticipate the “my super rich friend donated his jet for my personal use” response. Think about it. Why didn’t Jesus take advantage of all the riches available to Him? He could have. It seems like He declined a whole bunch of comfort.

Read your Bible and take a look at the lifestyle of Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc. Then take a look at the lifestyle of your pastor. Do not be deceived when he says that he does not believe in the prosperity gospel. Instead look at his life. Does he live way above the median income of those in your church? I mean a rich lifestyle-million dollar homes, gated communities and really expensive cars.

Could it be that we misunderstand when some pastors call themselves servant leaders? Could it be that some of you are being used for something more than promulgating the “gospel?”   For a possible explanation, I take you to a 5 minute clip from my favorite Twilight Zone episode, “To Serve Man.” Think about it.

Lydia's Corner: Exodus 37:1-38:31 Matthew 28:1-20 Psalm 34:11-22 Proverbs 9:9-10

Comments

James MacDonald/Mark Driscoll: Sacrificial Servants or Serving It Up — 128 Comments

  1. Dee-

    FYI: Following the earthquake & at the time of their travel, commercial air travel was closed to Port au Prince. Only way people got there was in private planes. Neither man owned a plane, but they knew someone who did.

  2. I had the misfortune of hearing MacDonald speak when I was in college. I remember finding him to be arrogant and presumptious, and at one point specifically saying that if God hadn’t spoken to you through his message, you needed to seriously reconsider whether or not you were a Christian. Seriously?! At the time, hearing this from the stage was enough to convince me that I was absolutely in the wrong place (I wasn’t – the number of sincere, genuine faculty and staff far outnumbered MacDonald), and I dropped out after my freshman year.

    …fortunately I’m cleverer than MacDonald, and I realized that the problem with his grandiose statement wasn’t my own lack of faith. So I went back. But the thought of what my life would be like, in every single aspect, had I not made that decision terrifies me, and I would have held him partially responsible for that. The only other thing I remember about his message was his continual bragging that he’d met Tiger Woods. Classy.

  3. I say with Tevya –

    “Perchik: Money is the world’s curse.
    Tevye: May the Lord smite me with it. And may I never recover.”

    Fiddler on the Roof 1971

  4. So often it seems that preachers who are living off the gifts of others, love to preach “how to manage your money” to the congregations that support them. The point of the “how to manage your money” is usually, “Give! Tithe! Give more! And then God will bless you like He blessed me!”

    I used to believe this and give lots of money to preachers like this. And guess what? They continued to get richer and richer off my money and the money of those like me, while I never got a sniff of the lifestyle they assured us all God would give us too if we were faithful. If questioned, the answer always was that there had to be something wrong with us– with the way were were living and handling our money.

    Well, yes, there was something wrong with the way we were handling our money. We were giving it to preachers so they could live high on the hog, while we scraped along!

    Nowadays when I do have money to spare, I give it mostly to those poorer than me.

  5. Joe
    You said exactly what I thought you would say. And I would imagine that there were restrictions on talking only for 15 minutes as well? Thank you!

  6. I got a good laugh out of your Twilight Zone pick. When the last Twilight Zone marathon ran, I thought it would be a great idea to have my kids watch the show. I thought they would enjoy it and gain something culturally relevant by watching. This happened to be the first episode they watched. They couldn’t get past the huge heads of the aliens and they laughed and guffawed through the entire episode. That was the end of Twilight Zone for them.

  7. Sarah, did you perchance attend CU when you heard him? If so, I’m SMH. That’s my alma mater and when I was a member of HBC about 12 years ago, is when he first started to forge ties with the college.

  8. Dee –

    You might have to start charging Jimmy advertising fees for continually putting Mahaney’s name on the top line 🙂 Jimmy must eagerly await every new post!

  9. Bridget:

    Jimmy must watch this blog all day long and have to be the first to post. I’m just kidding, but is Jimmy kin to Mahaney?

  10. We are passionately pursuing Christ’s promise to build His church…

    How in the world does one “passionately” pursue the promise made by Jesus by “passionately” pursuing money?? Jesus said that HE would build His church. And if “HE was lifted up, HE would draw all men to HIMSELF.”

    I must admit I would be truly embarrassed to be associated with that group.

  11. Jimmy,
    These good things about Piper and Mahaney– neither has been caught with his hand in the sexual or financial cookie jar. Neither’s teaching emphasizes getting smitten with money and not recovering. I understand Piper lives a relatively modest lifestyle, and takes advice from his elder board. And when Mahaney degifts elders, at least he doesn’t threaten to punch them in the nose! So…could be worse!
    Dee,
    We visited a very small church yesterday, which is working to raise money for Haiti missions. We like it already!

  12. 15 Minutes-enough time to get a couple of sound bites to show back home and plead for money because of all the “work” they do. Most of these celebrity ministers are nothing but silver-tongued leaches who suck money out of people to fund a grand lifestyle and proclaim their own “greatness”

  13. I took a look through the extensive online website of Harvest Bible Fellowship (HBF). Lo and behold, on October 15, 2012, MacDonald has made a resource available on how to be “wise” with your money.

    What’s the advice? TITHE TITHE TITHE TITHE TITHE?

  14. Jimmy must watch this blog all day long and have to be the first to post.

    I recognize the pattern from bitter experience in comics, anime, and furry fandom. The No-Life Fanboy. Who can spend 24/7/365 online, always ready to indulge his obsession or defend/counterattack any blasphemy towards his idol. While those of us with jobs and lives taking up our time cannot.

  15. Doctrine over people. In this case, many people of Haiti, not just two missionaries. No grace, no exceptions, just purity of ideology.

    What cold, stoney hearts these men must have.

  16. Kathi

    I so wish that some enterprising film maker would take on an updated Twilight Zone. They were fantastic. Did you know that Rod Serling’s unique voice was due to his paralysis from polio? He learned a technique, I think it was called frog breathing, in which he swallowed air in a gulp and burped it back up in order to speak.

  17. Doctrine over people. In this case, many people of Haiti, not just two missionaries. No grace, no exceptions, just purity of ideology. — Anne

    Purity of Ideology.
    Just like Citizen Robespierre.
    Just like Comrade Pol Pot.

  18. In response to this:

    FYI: Following the earthquake & at the time of their travel, commercial air travel was closed to Port au Prince. Only way people got there was in private planes. Neither man owned a plane, but they knew someone who did.

    FYI: the PaP airport reopened on February 17, 2010. The crusade that I am referring to was held on the one year anniversary of the earthquake January 12, 2011! The airport was not only open AA airlines has 5 flights a day from Miami and Fort Lauderdale. Delta flies from NY and Atlanta. There are and were on the day of the one year anniversary plenty of flights with open seats for these men that knew of the crusade over 6 months in advance. Did I tell you they arrived with body guards? Imagine how that makes me, a lowly woman, feel. After all I raised my four children in Haiti, two of them were born here. I have never carried a gun or had a body guard. I have prayed a lot and learned to depend 100% upon the Lord not only for my physical protection but for my financial support.

  19. FYI: the PaP airport reopened on February 17, 2010. The crusade that I am referring to was held on the one year anniversary of the earthquake January 12, 2011! The airport was not only open AA airlines has 5 flights a day from Miami and Fort Lauderdale. Delta flies from NY and Atlanta. There are and were on the day of the one year anniversary plenty of flights with open seats for these men that knew of the crusade over 6 months in advance. Did I tell you they arrived with body guards?

    So much for missional.

    Or is this missional, American style?

    Or is the the New Missional, to go with the New Calvinism?

  20. Thank you, Yvonne for publicly speaking out about this issue. I read your story a couple days ago and was saddened, but not shocked because I’ve read enough stories like this. Sometimes it takes someone like you with a real name and face who has factual information in order for skeptics to really take a closer look. I hope your boldness causes people to really pay attention to what is going on.

  21. Well, I liked Jimmy’s Fiddler On The Roof quote. Incidentally I love the musical too 🙂

    Seriously, this is a sad story. Then again, who am I to preach about mission? But my heart and my respect go out to the Trimbles and those like them who are long-term missionaries in countries like Haiti. May the Lord bless your work and keep you safe.

  22. Did I tell you they arrived with body guards? Imagine how that makes me, a lowly woman, feel. After all I raised my four children in Haiti, two of them were born here. I have never carried a gun or had a body guard. — Yvonne

    Probably because CELEBRITY Megachurch Pastors on a 15-minute photo op are FAR more Important than a mere missionary woman who lives long-term in-country. And they’re called “Armorbearers”, not “bodyguards” or (more accurately) “Enforcers” for the Man-o-God’s intimidation games.

  23. The film crew was for a purpose. I wonder what the footage was used for?

    Since only 15 minutes worth of oration, i’m guessing the purpose wasn’t to record the oration, but to document the fact of their sheer presence onstage at the large scale crusade,

    Has anyone seen any of this footage in promotional things?

  24. This reminds me a little of a story I heard years ago. A friend who was a fairly new Christian offered to do some work for a small missionary society (never heard of them before or since) and set up their computer system. Meanwhile the ‘leader’ of this society was making regular plane trips to the most touristy Pacific islands (and this was before the era of cheap flights) “looking into the potential for missionary work”. My friend, who never got paid for his efforts, named this behaviour “jetting for Jesus”, and the phrase has stuck with me ever since as a label for the hypocrisy of a certain type of Christian ‘leader’.

  25. Dave AA,

    Yesterday, my pastor began by asking us to pray for some missionaries in one of the most unchurched cities in America – Seattle.

  26. Hi Yvonne!

    The world, and especially the Christian world, is getting smaller as the blogosphere expands.

    Keeping you and your ministry in my thoughts and prayers.

  27. “…Probably because CELEBRITY Megachurch Pastors on a 15-minute photo op are FAR more Important than a mere missionary woman who lives long-term in-country…”

    Since when have ticket-punching field-grade brass and above ever cared about lowly grunts out humpin’ the bush?

  28. As long as the pew sitters sit in the pews and listen to the drivel and not demand accountability, this will continue. what is amazing is how many people fall for these guys and support them. That is who we should be concerned about because there are so many of them. From my experience in the seeker mega world, they were constantly recruiting new people because as many came in, 2 would leave. I say “recruiting” because that is what it was.

  29. Deb,
    At the end of Driscoll’s Sept 30 sermon, he gives an update on Mars Hill’s new church buildings, and says, “we are preparing and hoping to enter in a few months and to see more people meet Jesus in what used to be, but no longer is, the least churched city in America. In addition—you can clap for that if you’d like. [Congregation applauding]”
    This is is the same sermon where he describes Adam’s fall,
    “Adam, our first father’s sin was he didn’t say or do anything.”

  30. anonymous: “Is this missional, American style?
    Or is the the New Missional, to go with the New Calvinism?”

    Neither. It’s missional to go with private jets, million-dollar buses, your body-guards and your posse – just like Jesus. It’s all about him.

  31. ok, I’m obviously far too dumb to belong to any of these groups 🙂 I can’t for the life of me figure how kids meeting other kids “furthers the gay agenda” (whatever that actually is). I would have thought it was just, you know, about being friendly.

  32. @Deb “Yesterday, my pastor began by asking us to pray for some missionaries in one of the most unchurched cities in America – Seattle”.

    Reminds me that we often have missionaries and ministers here from the Pacific and Africa. I like the evolution of it. Maybe one day they’ll become as angsty post-enlightenment humanist as us when they become as affluent?

  33. Dee-

    I stand corrected. On their first trip PAP airport was closed, but 1 year later it was definitely open.

  34. Dee-

    Just throwing another thought out there that probably contributed to the decision, but perhaps A29 did not partner with Joel & Yvonne due to their pentecostal leanings or particularly simple doctrinal statement (found on their website) since doctrine is hugely important in A29. No offense to Yvonne or Joel and their work in Haiti.

  35. Pam,
    To be fair, I took Driscoll’s Adamic statement out of context. I’m pretty sure he was NOT saying that Adam did NOT eat the forbidden fruit. Well, kinda sure. But he WAS saying that Adam sinned BEFORE that, by failing to protect Eve from the snake or stop her from eating the fruit. As Mordecai sinned by not keeping Esther away from Xerxes or forbidding her competition in the contest. As a father should protect his grown daughters from snakey “guys” by “dumping” them. Patriarchy.
    His statement about seeing “more people meet Jesus”, in the firm context of adding more and more church buildings may, at least subtly, be saying “give us more and more money and you’re saving more and more of humanity”. (congregation applauding)

  36. One last thought: what is wrong with sending money to legitimate NGOs that will rebuild infrastructure and the many other basics that an organization like churches helping churches is not able to do? Why do we have to be so sectarian?

  37. Caleb W, I would really like to see some thorough development critiques of this. I need to know more about the circumstances of their visit, but my first impression is uncomfortableness if indeed tragedy is being used as the gateway to ‘bring the gospel’. And do you think that Christians there were being preferenced over others? The Salvation Army had or have a ‘soup, soap, salvation’ ethos. It was about meeting people’s physical needs before the spiritual. I find the whole concept of ‘mission’, structural and otherwise, fascinating.

  38. @ Dave:

    “Adam, our first father’s sin was he didn’t say or do anything.”

    Then why didn’t he realize he was naked until after he ate the fruit? I don’t understand the recent patriarchal penchant for saying Adam sinned before the Fall…

  39. We’ve been talking with our kids recently about “men of God” who live high and mighty. We don’t mention any names b/c I’m not giving these men any more attention. However, we do mention men/women that we feel are living for God. Francis Chan is one of them. Our Sunday group is going through his book “Crazy Love” right now. Below is his take on tithing.

    Francis Chan – Says No to Tithing

    We have lived and worked overseas for 15+ years and it’s discouraging when you hear these big names saying one thing and living another….but there are folks out there trying to live right.

    I have a lot of admiration for Yvonne and her family. I don’t know if I could have made it that long in Haiti, but then folks might say the same thing about where we’ve lived and worked for so long.

    The good news is that God is in control of everything (finances, etc) and He is at work, in spite of men like Driscoll and MacDonald!

  40. Yvonne, I admire you and your husband. Thank you for being willing vessels and trusting God with your lives and ministry.

    Forgive me if I’ve missed something, but I have a similar question as Elastigirl. If Driscoll arrived in his private plane with bodyguards and posse and stayed long enough for a photo op, does anyone know if he used the footage to garner financial support for Haiti from his congregants? If there was money collected and he pulled promised funds from Yvonne and Joel, where’d the money go?

  41. DaveAA

    My response to Driscoll is Adam’s sin was: pride, seekingto be like God, eating the apple, not diagreeing with Eve, etc. He is trying to dumb it down to a comp take on the sin. Adam was a screwup, and not for just doing what Eve asked him to do.

  42. Pam

    Great article. I am going on a trip in a couple of weeks and I won’t be able to write so i am going to use that one for a “do ahead” post. Thanks.

  43. Joe

    Baloney. Driscoll believes that cessationism is wrong. She does as well. Stop trying to defend the indefensible. He USED her to do his little film of the great rich pastor deigning to visit Haiti.

    This was about women preaching. You know it. It is comp this and comp that. And comp is part of their doctrine which is so HUGELY important. And yes, it is offensive to people who are really doing the work of God as opposed to writing sex manuals for Jesus. I am offended that Driscoll and MacDonald would use people to get their filming done.

  44. Kristen,

    I used to believe pastors who said tithe! give more! trust God! only then will you be blessed like me! We were members of a megachurch in our area for many years. A common phrase from the pulpit was “Give ’til it hurts!”

    Implicit in these messages to those who struggle financially (and in other areas) is that we’re doing something wrong. God isn’t blessing because we’re not giving enough, trusting Him enough, loving Him enough, being good enough Christians.

    I bought into this for a long while, and unfortunately, when we left for a smaller church, the message was much the same. Eventually, I began questioning where the money was going, how staff could afford to live such luxurious lifestyles, why we needed ANOTHER building campaign. A “middle school pastor” whose wife doesn’t work shouldn’t be able to afford a $400,000 home. Something is really wrong.

    You said, “Nowadays when I do have money to spare, I give it mostly to those poorer than me.” This is exactly what we do now. Fortunately, we’ve found a church that has an amazing number of ministries to the poor in (and outside) our community. That’s where we contribute.

  45. DaveAA

    I liked your omment at 1:58AM. Driscoll, in order to push his agenda, blames Adam for not being the man. Adam wanted to be like God-plain and simple and he was in total agreeement with Eve. Now, take a look at Driscoll and his Jesus sex book. He trashed Grace and then forced her to do the round with him to the talk shows. He talks the big game of “protecting her” by monitoring her emails, etc. Then he trashes her is in a book about sex. Talk about a flaming hypocrite. Mark is Adam.

  46. Haitch

    Yvonne and Joel have slogged in Haiti for years. They live among the people and have developed relationships over a long period of time. These “famous preacher” trips are about the famous preacher. What they said to the people. What they did for the people. This is about them. Then they can do a press release “Our church sent x tons of food to Haiti.” 

    Then we get people trying to justify why said preachers really, really need a priavte jet and large homes. They are different you see. Privileged. Tortured men of God serving Christ in the depths of misery. They deserve the tithes paid from poor peopel so they can have a Benz. I am not in a good mood this morning.

  47. Jen

    We have written positively about Chan on this site. He certainly does not march to the same drummer as many of these guys. Thank you for your service. In fact, it is the folks like you who are queitly living out the faith unlike the big boys who strut around the world in their private jets. You are the ones who will be honored in the new Kingdom.Thank you for commenting here.

  48. Driscoll, in order to push his agenda, blames Adam for not being the man. Adam wanted to be like God-plain and simple and he was in total agreeement with Eve. Now, take a look at Driscoll and his Jesus sex book. He trashed Grace and then forced her to do the round with him to the talk shows. He talks the big game of “protecting her” by monitoring her emails, etc. Then he trashes her is in a book about sex. Talk about a flaming hypocrite. Mark is Adam. – dee [Hope those italics worked!]

    Adam: “My sin is the woman’s fault Lord, she made me do it.”
    Mark: “My marriage was Grace’s fault, she made me frustrated.”

  49. Caleb and Dee –

    These videos were simply Christian commercials to promote Churches for Churches. I, too, was struck by how both men spoke on the video in 2010. They were describing heartbreaking scenarios yet sounded like they were doing a promo, which they were. They talked about fleeing some areas in this first video (with or without body guards?). Maybe that is why they had them on the return trip. It is very sad. My guess is that they brought supplies on the first trip and checked out the situation, but they don’t seem to make any connection with people at all.

    Thank you, Yvonne and Joel, for your life of service to the people of Haiti.

  50. So the argument was basically give us money or you’ve damned humanity? — Pam

    Sounds like the Christianese junk mail that was clogging my mailbox years ago. Add “And GOD WILL HOLD *YOU* ACCOUNTABLE!!!!!” to the end of the argument and it’d be a near-exact match. Talk about Extortion…

  51. Empathy? Empathy is for wimps. Driscoll is a MAN! — Dee

    Because Driscoll Can Beat You Up!

    (Or at least order his Armorbearers to Beat You Up…)

  52. Dee,

    I’m curious. You hold and MBA and are far better qualified to opine on the business aspect of the mega-biggies than most of us here. What is the dynamic involved in keeping themselves solvent and with a high enough cash flow to sustain their enterprises? I think Anon 1 has touched on it by saying that they must have a high turnover rate of those in the pews who are willing to fork over their hard earned cash to these guys.

    Once the exhuberance wears off I would suspect that they need more and newer bodies with fairly high levels of disposable income for any chance at sustainability. Common sense would argue that they cannot rely on poor widows on social security putting their last mites into their coffers.

  53. What is the dynamic involved in keeping themselves solvent and with a high enough cash flow to sustain their enterprises? I think Anon 1 has touched on it by saying that they must have a high turnover rate of those in the pews who are willing to fork over their hard earned cash to these guys. — Muff Potter

    Sounds like Sheep Rustling to me.

  54. Per Francis Chan – I haven’t read anything he’s written, but it is my understanding he is Neo-Calvinist. Is that correct? Also, what little I have heard about Crazy Love from other people is that many have wondered whether they are truly saved after reading the first chapter/early chapters. Personally, a book by a Neo-Calvinist that demolishes the reader’s assurance in the early chapters makes me pretty leery – it tends to be a tactic to get the reader to blindly accept everything that follows out of fear – but like I said, I haven’t heard much so I am reserving judgment at this point until I know more.

    I really don’t mean the above to be offensive or provoking. I’m basically in the habit now of putting all Christian authors on automatic probation until they’ve proven themselves non-crazy (and I ALWAYS read the 1-star reviews first!).

  55. That canard about Seattle being “unchurched” is, well… dreck, bs, whatever you want to call it.

    I suspect those who make that claim are refusing to acknowledge all the Lutherans (tons of Scandinavian L’rans out there), Episcopalians, Catholics, Orthodox – even Methodists. 😉 (No offense intended toward Methodists; I think the intentional blindness of MD and others toward xtians who don’t believe exactly what they believe is insulting and truly arrogant.)

    I haven’t been in Seattle for a while, but there sure were tons of churches out there when last I went, as well as churches (again not acknowledged by MD) who work with the poor, homeless folks, etc.

    If MH put even one tenth of their energy and money into *not* talking about themselves/drawing attention to themselves and gave that time, money and energy to those who have little money, need literacy tutoring, need help re. domestic violence issues (!!!), Seattle *might* be better off for it. I say “might” only because I truly wonder how many MH members would be willing to give up their “It’s all about us!” attitude and forget about their church and be willing to work with ministries and missions that have been established by others…

  56. Hester, I have not read the book, but others have said the same to me about it, too. I do admire Chan for leaving his cushy mega church. He said he heard his name more than Christ’. His leaving his cushy celebrity position really upset some guys like DRiscoll and Josh Harris. I read some YRR blogs at the time that compared him to trying to be a monk and thinking it make him holy.

  57. BTW Hester, I have heard the same sorts of things about Platt. People trying to live up to what he teaches and getting horribly burned out and even wondering if they are saved.

    I really think we are going to see some serious fallout from the YRR/NC movement in the next 10 years and it won’t be pretty. This is different from the shallow seeker movement in how it affects people.

  58. Numo

    Well, I don’t know about that.  I am not sure that the pornovision sermon and thvecage fighting stuff constittutes church. I would recommend setting up shop next to MH and bringing them some, let’s use one of their words, “gospel.”  🙂

  59. Anon1

    I love it when some within the inner circle shake things up a bit. Thabiti has now advanced to a much higher plane in Dee’s assessment.

  60. I’m wondering what the fiscal transparency is of Churches Helping Churches.

    Something about the notions of autocracy / secrecy / huge debt asssociated with James Macdonald & Mark Driscoll (with less debt) combined with asking for money for a charity doesn’t sit well with me.

  61. @ Joe,

    Sadly, I was at an A29 church during the time when Driscoll and Jimmy Mac went to Haiti (I’m no longer there, thanks be to God). We were forced to watch the churches helping churches video. About 15 seconds into the video, my thoughts were: A) why are these two clowns going down there and getting in the way of people who actually know what they’re doing? B) Why can’t we, as a church, send money to people who’ve been faithfully laboring in Haiti for years and actually know the Haitian people and the culture, and know what’s happening there? People who will still be there long after the cameras are gone.

  62. I was emotionally drawn into the Haiti Earthquake situation a while back and followed a few blogs of missionaries who were there and were dealing with the aftermath of death, no shelter, water, basic essentials. I remember the blog owners mentioning their frustrations with celebrity pastors (I didn’t know that word then) who came to Haiti to give the image of helping, yet created more disruption and drama. It would have been better for them to not have gone at all so that actual work could be accomplished. This kind of facade of helping those in need is disgusting.

  63. The City was sold to Zondervan which marketed it to a bunch of places. Selling The City was what kept MH from sinking in the hole financially. No idea where Hubert is now other than that he’s no longer a pastor at MH. So, technically, The City does not necessarily indicate that a church is all that directly affiliated with MH, though it may be the majority of participant churches are A29 in some fashion. I wouldn’t lay great odds that The City is a popular device with United Methodists quite as much as A29 member churches.

  64. It would appear Zondervan sold Seattle-based division “The City”, the church networking technology, to ACS Technologies, a leader in church software solutions, in 2011. Zondervan who owned and operated “The City” sold it after the acquisition less that three years  prior. Zondervan CEO Scott Macdonald said in 2011 that since acquiring the technology in 2008 from MH, his company had worked to grow the service for churches. “The City’s” innovative community and communication engagement tools is said to be a good fit for the South Carolina-based ACS Technologies’s portfolio’s church office solutions.”The City” uses social networking technology to help more than 600 churches keep in touch with their members throughout the week. “The City” allows churchgoers to engage with one whether they’re scheduling events, sharing prayer requests or information, connecting for outreach, using a community calendar, giving, or keeping contact information accurate.

  65. There is so much wrong about that 2010 video. The upload date is January 20 – the earthquake happened on January 12. So soon after a major disaster is not the time for tourists (which, frankly, is what they were) to be there. For crying out loud, the country was still in the immediate response phase – people were still being pulled out of the rubble! During this period after such an event the only people who should be heading in are those involved in response and recovery.

  66. @ Anon 1:

    It wouldn’t surprise me if Platt does the same thing. I haven’t read Radical either, but there’s a long and pretty devastating 1-star review of it on Amazon that doesn’t get my hopes up. Basically the reviewer claims Platt sees the rich young ruler as normative for everybody (instead of Jesus giving advice specifically to a man who idolized his wealth). Of course, this leads directly to the conclusion that it is basically a sin for rich Christians to use any of their wealth for themselves – except at that point one has to ask, why weren’t Lazarus and Joseph of Arimathea commanded to sell everything? (And they WERE most definitely rich, as they could both afford burials in tombs.)

    Per the not living up to Platt’s standards thing, most authors don’t actually include a “Top 10 Reasons You Aren’t Really Saved” list in their book – most of them opt for the (much more subtle) “Why You Might Want to Examine Your Spiritual Condition If You Don’t Agree With Me” chapter. Now whether Platt did this or not, I don’t know. And I know it’s hardly denominationally specific, but when Neo-Calvinists do it it makes me doubly nervous, because it was very important to their Puritan ancestors that “hypocrites” not be permitted to have assurance…with the net result that many Christians weren’t allowed to have it either.

  67. Hester, One was a couple at his church who took all his teaching and put it into practice. Problem was it was never enough. You hear this week after week after divesting yourself of most of your material things, money, etc, it wears you out. They got to the point of dreading church and finally left. Thing is, they had been at the church before Platt came. At first they were very excited.

    Platt does not seem to have a problem hobnobbing with celebrity, wealthy Calvnistas who don’t follow his teaching. I have always wondered about that. It is as if they use Platt because he is popular and it will rub off on them by being seen with him on stages. Personally, I find him a bit strange to watch. As if he is “affected” or something.

  68. What bothers me the most about these Calvinistas is that they claim to hold Scripture in high regard, but when they blog, write books, or stand in the pulpit….they’re full of hot air. Many of them aren’t gifted in the languages, or at least haven’t bothered with them. They don’t teach the text, they create their own narrative. They rarely walk through a biblical book, more often they dwell on topics (many of which are predetermined around themes of manhood & being “missional”). Even when they attempt biblical exegesis, it’s patched together with tons of quotes from their inner circles.

  69. “Basically the reviewer claims Platt sees the rich young ruler as normative for everybody (instead of Jesus giving advice specifically to a man who idolized his wealth)”

    Hester, sorry to jump in on yours and Anon1’s discussion, but I have read Radical myself. In my opinion, this reviewer you mention has a rather wrong interpretation of Platt’s point in the book. In the book and sermons I have heard of his elsewhere, he is not making the rich young rulers abandonment of wealth normative for all Christians, He is however pointing out that IF Christ confronts you and asks you to abandon your wealth or other things that your heart is devoted too, are you radical for Christ enough to let it go?

    The point of the book is to look at what we are Radical to the most….do we reflect a radical lifestyle to Christ or reflect a radical lifestyle to our American culture…His point is not to bash everybody over the head who owns wealth..

    I think many would say Platt is advocating works based righteousness… I disagree with this.. I think Platt is trying to confront those in the church who have a mediocre commitment to Christ and a more “radical” commitment to the American dream and American culture…

    My take from the book…Others may vary.

  70. Seeker, I think the problem is that all that sounds really good in a book but how does it work in practice in a large church. Will folks try to out “radical” each other to show their devotion. it is one thing to say how it works in a book and quite another to live it out in a group. That is exactly what this couple was talking about… all the while seriously concerned they were not listening close enough to God to be more radical, yada yada, yada.

    The problems I have with the whole idea or “Radical” group think is found in Matthew 6. It is not about hanging on to anything or seeking the American dream (which I do not think is a bad thing) it is about how we go about giving and sharing what we have..Matthew 6 makes it clear.

    We have too many pastors trying to be the Holy Spirit FOR people. I often wonder if pastors do certain things so they can write a book about it. Perhaps not. But who knows? It sure has projected Platt to stardom in certain circles.

  71. Deb: “At least two churches in our area utilize “The City” as a communication tool.”

    But in the hands of self-appointed prophets, priests, and kings who sit atop a hierarchical leadership structure, “The City” is an ideal communication control tool. It was developed for that reason.

  72. “But understand this – these Fat Cats want YOU to finance THEM! They are busy building an empire and it is your job to be the cannon fodder. Well, okay, maybe it is not that bad, but note that it is YOU who are expendable. YOUR money, your time, your talents…. all part of THEIR plan.

    Question: Is your money going to the Lord Jesus Christ? Or to a Fat Cat who is building a Cash Cow Empire?”

    http://herescope.blogspot.com/2012/10/cah-cow-fat-cat.html

  73. WTH-

    Hubert is at Ministry Centered Technology, a small church software company that makes Planning Center Online, since Zondervan sold “The City”.

  74. Hubert used to head up The City with Zondervan for a while. When Zondervan sold The City he’d have probably needed to transition to something. He’s probably not going to want for work with the skill set he’s got. Doesn’t seem to have been in the pastor scene for a while.

  75. @ Seeker:

    “I think Platt is trying to confront those in the church who have a mediocre commitment to Christ and a more ‘radical’ commitment to the American dream and American culture.”

    Like I said, I haven’t read the book, but this still raises some questions for me:

    1. Is the only way to be “radical” in America to willingly be less wealthy/poor? In some parts of the country, being committed to a church body at all is pretty “radical.” In some communities, it’s “radical” for the parents of a child to actually live together and raise the child. In some parts of the Philadelphia ghetto, it might a “radical” decision to not buy illegal drugs. So yes, I agree, in a white upper-class suburb, willingly giving away half your income would be “radical.” But once again, you have to examine whether God has actually called you to do that. Maybe that was your whole point, but I still felt this needed to be said.

    2. From what little I have read, Platt seems to be defining the American Dream as the acquisition of lots of money/stuff. But that’s a pretty reductionist view of the American Dream. The American Dream is “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness,” which yes, can include bettering yourself financially, but also includes things like the equality of all men, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc. – ironically, the very things that allow Platt to spread his message. So if Platt really does define the American Dream solely in terms of money/stuff, he is missing the point and propagating ignorance.

    Also, there are many people who are “radically” committed to the (real) American Dream precisely BECAUSE they are committed to Christ and believe in human worth and freedom. The two are not necessarily contradictory and you can be committed to both. Yes, ultimately, your loyalty to Christ should trump your loyalty to your country, but often it takes a pretty extreme situation to warrant making that decision.

  76. @ Anon 1:

    “Will folks try to out ‘radical’ each other to show their devotion. it is one thing to say how it works in a book and quite another to live it out in a group. That is exactly what this couple was talking about… all the while seriously concerned they were not listening close enough to God to be more radical, yada yada, yada.”

    You are exactly right per the connection with Matthew 6. And these were his own congregants trying to “out-radical” each other? Did Platt ever point out that they were taking his message the wrong way by trying to do “one-upsmanship piety”?

  77. Scot T

    You said “Even when they attempt biblical exegesis, it’s patched together with tons of quotes from their inner circles.” That is a good observation.

  78. Seeker

    I agree with you take on Radical. I have read the book. i also have attended his church in Birmingham on a number of occasions and his sermons appear to reflect your thoughts.

  79. Hester

    I think Platt is trying to get people to reconsider their goals. Don’t get me wrong. I live a comfortable life. I get to travel, have nice clothes, and free time. I have decided to use my free time in pursuing the issues that we write about on this blog. Many women in my situation use their time going to lunch at the club and aimlessly entertaining themselves, assuaging their consciences by the occasional “women’s Bible study.”

    I think Platt would challenge us to do something with our lives beyond the mundane. Does he occsaionally overstep? Yes.. However his book, Radical, encouraged me with what we are doing here. We are putting ourselves on the line for something that we think is valuable. Should everyone start a blog? Absolutely not. Each of us have an area that God is nudging us in and we should walk down that path. For example, visiting an elderly person in a nursing home who has no relatives left alive. Tutoring a kid in a low income setting. Helping out a single mom  who is struggeling.

    BTW, I think fighting for liberty of conscience a worthy and radical goal. Think of the women in some countries who must hide behind a burka and never go out in public alone. 

     

     

  80. I went to ACS Technologies’ website. In addition to “The City,” they also have lots of other software solutions for mega, medium and small churches. Here’s the link to the megachurch page:

    http://www.acstechnologies.com/enterprisechurches

    Why yes, that’s “enterprisechurches” in the link. Make of it what you will.

  81. Jeneral Lee, I did indeed. This message would have been around 2002-2003 so that fits. He was there a few days. I remember not liking him much for a while but once he went as far as to accuse anyone who didn’t agree with his message as not being Christian I was pretty much done with him (and, at the time, Christianity and the school. I went back to those, but I’ll stay far away from MacDonald, thanks).

  82. Sarah, so sorry you had that experience. Do you recall if anyone at CU (staff, faculty or students) disagreed with him on that point? I don’t have kind words for James myself, and consider the performance based “gospel” he preaches to not be gospel at all. And, if what you say is true about his assertion about anyone who disagreed with him (and I don’t doubt you), then he has set himself up in the place of God. I find that HBC now fits the sociological definition of a cult. I also find that he has spiritually abused many, many people. Unfortunately, I think he began forging ties with college bc so many of us grads attended Harvest at the time (many of us were in our early 20s then and in the Young Adult Ministry there).

  83. The City is being used by Dirty Girls Ministries to provide an online community for women struggling with pornogrphy and other sexual addictions. I have personally benefitted from this community. No one there is trying to control anyone.

  84. @ Dee:

    I agree with what you said and I’m glad you took the book that way. The other people I’ve seen/met/read who have read it, for the most part, have gotten from it “God wants me to give away all my money and be poor.” No discernment, just less money = better Christian. Like I said, I haven’t read it, so maybe that’s not what Platt was saying and these people really are missing the point.

    The first place I ever saw Radical was sitting on a sideboard at my ex-pastor’s house. He absolutely refused to be bivocational, even though the 5-family church was 5 figures in debt and couldn’t pay him. He wasn’t disabled or anything; he just refused to get a job. So this is the image that pops into my head when I think of the book – pastors refusing to work to support themselves (contra the explicit example of Paul) and then getting hold of Radical. Not sure if he was hoping we would up our giving (since he was poor) or what, as he was let go shortly afterwards.

    I haven’t read the book, and I try not to let the above situation color my impressions of it too much – but I’m pretty sure using it to glorify poverty/dependency or wring money out of people is not the way it was intended to be used. 2 Thessalonians 3:10 does kick in at some point.

  85. Jimmy is going to get his wishes fulfilled. A lawsuit was just filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries for failure to report sex abuse, etc. I’m on my phone. Maybe someone can grab the link from my current blog post and post it. I’m on the middle of mom busy-ness. Thx!

  86. To Our Readers

    Breaking story on lawsuits brought against SGM regarding mishandling of alleged pedophile incidents. See TWW front page. We will do a full story this evening. Julie Ann Smith scooped us! Yay Julie Anne!

  87. Hester:

    (this may be a bit long)

    “Is the only way to be “radical” in America to willingly be less wealthy/poor? ”

    I don’t think this was his point…The first half of his book concerns “radical abandonment” to Christ….NOT radical abandonment of wealth…His concern with the American Dream/Culture is not found in liberty, freedom, etc…In fact, if I remember correctly, He praises the latter things in America in many sections of his book…

    His concern is the co-mingling of the American culture/dream with the American Church (Bigger Crowds, Bigger Budgets, Megachurches..all the while ignoring what is most important)…He begins his book with his dilemna as a megachurch leader, and his realization that Jesus often spurned what many churches in America seemed to find most important…

    He says and I quote “…if Jesus is who he said he is, and if his promises are as rewarding as the Bible claims they are, then we may discover that satisfaction in our lives and success in the church are not found in what our culture deems most important but in radical abandonment to Jesus”…After this quote..he begins to discuss the latter..radical abandonment to Jesus..which covers far far more than abandoning wealth..

    So to answer your question…he considers being “radical” to be primarily devoted and faithful to Christ..not to some specific “righteous” work…

    In regards to wealth/poverty…I can remember one chapter where he discusses Blind Spots that we may have..and he shares a blind spot that God was dealing with him as he traveled around the world on missionary journeys…that blind spot was worldwide poverty..

    Let me quote you what he says and see what you think:

    “Anyone wanting to proclaim the glory of Christ to the ends of the earth must consider not only how to declare the gospel vebally but also how to demonstrate the gospel visibly in a world where so many are urgently hungry. If I am going to address urgent spiritual need by sharing the gospel of Christ or building up the body of Christ around the world, then I cannot overlook the dire physical needs in the process”

    He then goes on to discuss the need to be considerate of the least of these..This is where the rich young ruler comes in..and Christ asking him to abandon his possessions..

    Platt admits people makes two errors with that passage..

    1. People misinterpret this passage to mean that ALL should abandon their possessions and give it to the poor and follow Christ.

    or

    2. People misinterpret this passage to mean that Christ would NEVER ask us to sell our possessions and follow Him…Platt says, rightly so, He could.

    He then ends with this: “Jesus never intended to be one voice among many counseling us on how to lead our lives and use our money. He always intends to be THE voice that guides whatever decisions we make in our lives and with our money”…

    Here, Platt leaves it up to the reader and the Holy Spirit’s guidance on what to do with their wealth…Platt NEVER says to abandon wealth to follow Christ, but he DOES say we should be pray/consider the least of these in our lives as the Holy Spirit leads us!

    The thing I respect most about Platt..this is not all talk..He has followed his convictions on many of the things he has discussed…unlike other Celeb pastors…

    I know this was long..but I hope this clears up some questions you may have.. 🙂

    This book is not without its flaws..and I don’t agree with all in it..but it certainly raises some good points that I think American Christians should consider…For some, the topics in this book may be nothing new…for others..many would be enlightened I believe…

  88. Anon1

    I can’t really say how all this will work out in a large church..I have read the story on the couple you mentioned, and it makes me wonder if Brook Hills took the whole “radical” idea too far. Based on what I have heard from his sermons on the “radical” series, Secret Church, and his book, I don’t believe Platt ever intended to normalize people to abandon all their wealth..or coerce people to do so..or coerce people to “out” radical one another within his own church…

    We can all be a bit stubborn at times..so maybe his church, in light of the budget changes they made and commitments they were following with adoption, poverty, etc…found themeselves caught up with too much Zeal…So what started out as a Holy Spirit led thing turned into a self-righteous competition among the members of the church…That particular couple seemed to think so…makes me wonder if they were alone in their perspective or if others shared it?

    And about Matthew 6: You may be right..In the confines of Brook Hills, the idea of “radical” may have evolved into self righteouss trumpeting of people trying to outdo one antoher…I can’t say for certain because I was not there…However, for my wife and I, it allowed us to take a deeper look at FIRST: Our overall devotion to Christ…and TWO: Blind Spots we may have in our life..including poverty..We have not and will not announce how we approach the poverty issue as a “show” for others…

    In regards to pastors being the Holy Spirit for people…I really don’t think Platt was doing that with this book..BUT, I know many pastors ahve done this and will continue to do this…With Platt, I saw him doing what a good teacher should…Pointing us back to certain things in scripture regarding our devotion to Christ and Christ’s approach for the least of these…

    Many times in his book..Platt left it up to the reader to take these things BACK to the Holy Spirit to pray/reflect…Platt has certainly risen to stardom…Not sure that was his intention either with Radical…However, one can hope that he retains the priorities he promotes in his book…

  89. I am no fan of McDonald or Driscoll. I totally agree that they have become Pharisee's to the hilt. McDonald on the 1st Elephant tried to destroy Platt and his view on missions and money. Mc had to comeback and give somewhat of an apology to Platt. Somewhat of one is not an apology. On women in the pulpit, just have not studied it much, not sure I will. Also have not read the comment stream here so this may be a repeat. But, I do have a question: Did the missionary lady not know what Mc and Dris believe or Acts 29 for that matter? I mean when you say what she said to them about preaching, did she think they would embrace her? Maybe, but I doubt it. Did she think they would ignore at least that portion of what they say they believe about women in the pulpit? Since she did believe different than they do then why would she want their money in the first place? Why would she ever want to connect with them? She bears some responsibility in that I am sure she thought she was getting much needed money and connection and failed to either research what they believe or did not care.

  90. Coach

    This woman is slogging, caring for the desperately poor in Haiti. here in the US, we have the luxury of time to study and learn. I am sure that the finer points of the Acts 29 belief structure did not occur to her. TWW did a story on the actual statement of belief by Acts 29 and even people who thought they knew them were surprised. In fact, have you read them through yourself?

    These guys have been functioning a bit under the radar until the past few years in which the blogs are revealing alot of this stuff. How many people would know of Driscoll’s pornovisions or macDonalds $1.9 million house without them.

    Secondly, they used her. She drove them around, got them face time for the crowds, and they used her and then didn’t even toss her a crumb. They got what they needed.Who cares about her-a nothing unbiblical woman who actually preaches to the poor instead of pretending whe cares about the poor.

  91. …. And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation

    How in the world do we think anyone is forbidden from preaching the gospel??

  92. Victorious

    These men interpret the Scripture to say that only men can preach the Gospel. By the way, this is being raised to a primary issue, and they will fight for this as vigorously as they defend Jesus' Resurrection. 

  93. @Jeneral Lee,

    Unfortunately I don’t, but now I’d be pretty confident in saying that I know plenty who WOULD – or would at least agree that the tone he took (setting himself up as God, because you’re absolutely right, in saying that it’s exactly what he did) was inappropriate. At the time I was a fairly angsty and disillusioned 19-year-old and didn’t know of anyone who did. I vaguely recall the majority of my small social circle liking him with the exception of one guy, who never said why but I appreciated the fact that he wasn’t as taken with MacDonald as everyone else.

    On the other hand, though, I spent more time on that campus than MacDonald, and the people who were constant there (staff, faculty, many other students) were the opposite and far outweighed his nonsense. 🙂

  94. “My friend, I believe that you can judge the religious racketeer by his standard of living. A friend of mine heard me make the statement that people should check up on radio broadcasters and see what kind of homes they live in and what cars they drive. He thought I was wrong to make a statement like that, but he decided to check up on one man. He found that man living in a very costly home with two Cadillacs parked in front and an expensive swimming pool behind it. My friend had also heard about certain other excesses in that man’s live, and so he decided that he was supporting the wrong broadcaster. “The way of Balaam” – covetousness. This is one of the ways a false religious teacher can be identified, and God will judge him for it.”

    J. Vernon McGee, commentary on II Peter 2

  95. J vernon

    Awesome quote. One that is certain to be ignored by many! I believe that people create pastors in their own image. If they want to be rich, they do not want some upstart telling them to take care of the poor. So they find themselves a pastor who lives like they want to live. Then they do not have to worry about difficult and convicting sermons on the dangers of wealth.

  96. dee

    Much agreement when you write…
    “I believe that people create pastors in their own image. If they want to be rich…”

    2 Tim 4:3
    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
    *but after their own lusts* shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    And I’ve noticed, in the Bible, when folks ask God for stuff, “after their own lusts”
    God will often give what is asked for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.” 😉
    And often, that “A Little Bit Extra” ain’t much fun. 🙁

  97. dee

    Hear – are a couple of examples, in the Bible, of “a Little Bit Extra.” 😉
    The Israelites, in the wilderness, wanted something they thought was good for them.
    Something God hadn’t intended for them.

    1 – God’s people asked for meat. Hmmm?

    Num 11:20
    They waited not for His counsel. But lusted and tempted God.
    He gave them flesh till it was coming out of their nostrils.

    So, God gives them meat – And – “A Little Bit Extra.” – He sent leanness to their soul.

    Psalm 106:15
    And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.
    ————

    The Israelites, in the promised land, wanted something they thought was good for them.
    Something God hadn’t intended for them.

    2 – God’s people asked for a King. Hmmm?

    God gave them what they asked for… And “a little bit extra.”

    1 Sam 8:7
    And the LORD said unto Samuel,
    Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee:
    for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me,
    that I should not reign over them.

    God was willing to give them what they asked for… And “A Little Bit Extra.”
    Samuel warned the people.

    1 Sam 8:11
    This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you:
    He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots,
    and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

    Your King will take your sons.
    Your King will take your daughters.
    Your King will take your fields.
    Your King will take your vineyards.
    Your King will take your oliveyards.
    Your King will take the tenth of your seed.
    Your King will take your menservants.
    Your King will take your maidservants
    Your King will take your asses.
    Your King will take the tenth of your sheep.
    and you shall be the Kings servants…

    1 Sam 8:19 -20
    Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel;
    and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us.
    That we also may be like all the nations…

    So, The Israelites, wanted a king – to “be like all the nations.” And rejected God. 🙁

    God gives them what they asked for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”

    The Kings, Mere Fallible Humans, were NOT God’s best for His people.

    God wanted to lead His people… How do Kings look now…

  98. dee

    James MacDonald – Mark Driscoll – And ALL these “Pastors who Abuse.”
    ALL these “Pastors addicted to – Power – Profit – Prestige – Recognition – Reputation etc.”
    Are getting what they ask for – And – “A Little Bit Extra” is on the way.

    Many Pastors suffer from – Burnout – Depression – Failing Maraiges – “Leaness to their soul.”

    The people often want a king, a Leader, a famous Leader, a pastor, a famous pastor…
    And God gives them what they ask for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.” 🙁

    There might be lots of pain – But – The Abuse causes them to – NO longer trust in man…
    The Abuse drives them to Jesus. 😉

    And when I complained to God about the Spiritual Abuse I suffered through…
    I heard – “You can’t cheat an honest man. I just gave you what you wanted.” 🙁

    I had to admit – I wanted this – Power – Profit – Prestige – Recognition – Reputation
    I just didn’t like what went with it – “A Little Bit Extra.”

    In His Mercy – He sent “Leaness to my soul.” And I had NO place to go – But – to…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}} 🙂