We are grateful to Julie Anne Smith, ace reporter, who texted us about this breaking story. We will cover it this evening. In the meantime here and here are links to the developing story. The Gospel Coalition and Al Mohler will have their hands full dealing with this.Click on title to access links.
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They made a TODDLER have a reconciliation meeting with her abuser?? WTF? W.T.F.?
Eagle
God is for the afflicted and he will eventually punish the wicked, if you catch my drift.
What no mention of C.J.? Are the girls dabbling in dementia? Did they forget?
G.E.
They have been dodging this for years. Since the inception of TWW, we have recorded the stories of these victims on this blog. We even begged a local big dog Reformed pastor to talk to the leadership of SGM and all we got was accusations of character assasination. We stand with these victims. We have for years. May justice be done and may those involved repent.
The Gospel Coalition and Al Mohler (and Mark Dever and so many others) have had a heads up on this situation for months and months. They chose to “extend grace” to CJ all along because – – – -you know those survivor blogs – – -they are full of slanderous, grumbling, and divisive people who break up churches. (JA’s sarcasm in case you don’t know me well.)
Time and again, we are seeing that the voices on survivor blogs are true testimonies. In this day and age, one person’s voice crying out on the internet can have a powerful effect on the bigger church. Bravo to those brave souls who have filed this lawsuit. They speak for the many others who have been injured. These folks were first victimized by sexual abuse and then victimized for a second time by church leaders who spent time doing damage control rather than caring for them, wounded sheep. It’s disgusting behavior. It needs to stop.
Jimmy
How about we leave who is involved up to the lawsuit? I imagine that CJ will be mentioned a time or two in relation to this situation.But perhaps it will only be as a deeply concerned leader, hmmm? Jimmy, once again you show no compassion for the alleged victims and you know the stories.How sad.
@ Jimmy. Had to chuckle as my dyslexia kicked in and messed up my mind while I read your comment …
I find that Dee and Deb do mention both J.C. AND C.J. whenever warranted. Cheers, bro — Brad
Brad . . . . . . . you CRACK me up! I need your humor amidst this chaos! Thank you!
Jimmy –
Do you take anything seriously? You are a moron.
I left this comment over at Survivors, thought I’d paste it here as well…
“And here’s the irony…so many people were willing to forgive SGM if they would acknowledge their failings, deal fairly with the victims, and put new policies in place to help inform staff on how to best deal with this sort of situation.”
doubtful
The only thing that seems to work with some of these snotty Calvinistas is when Uncle Sam comes calling. We have advocated for this sort of thing for a long time It is the only thing that will get the churches to do the right thing. But, I am sure they will say that they are being persecuted for following the Lord. Blech!
Persecution for stupidity and criminal heartlessness is called justice in my book.
doubtful
There are some similarities between the allegations in this case and the Sandusky mess. I would imagine sales of Zantac are on the uptick in Louisville. I cannot wait to hear all the justifiers taking to the airwaves and saying that SGM is a wonderful ministry and CJ is such a great guy. Who the heck cares about a group of abused kids?
This is good news indeed.
anonymous
Pray for justice. I remember a guy from a seminary that said I should not expect justice in this world. He, of course, was worried for the sake of the church about some allegations of child sexual abuse in a church where he served as an elder. He told me my “trajectory” was wrong. As you can well imagine, old Dee laughed and continued to expose the problems.
“The Gospel Coalition and Al Mohler (and Mark Dever and so many others) have had a heads up on this situation for months and months. They chose to “extend grace” to CJ all along because – – – -you know those survivor blogs – – -they are full of slanderous, grumbling, and divisive people who break up churches. (JA’s sarcasm in case you don’t know me well.)”
Oh, they protected him big time. They ran interferance for him. Mohler even told a reporter right after CJ stepped down that the bloggers just did not like “strong leadership”. He had NO reason to discuss this with a reporter. It was ON purpose. He was making it public his protection. Sending a message to the Reformed. Mohler is an EMPLOYEE of an SBC entity. And we let him get by with protecting the shepherding cult of PDI/SGM. They ahve access to the same information we do and you know what? They AGREE with Mahaney. It is about controlling people so they can be “in authority”. It is about them. It is a man centered “religion”. (Oh, don’t forget all the money SGM/CJ have donated to SBTS)
It is about time we deal with these charlatans in the court system. Kudo’s to these women taking on the deep pockets of CJ. They are blights on our love feasts.They are wolves who devour people.
It is GREAT news. EVen if nothing comes of it, it will alert the public to
STAY AWAY from anything SGM. I plan to make it well known in areas around their start up church. When the money dries up– they go away and have to start over again. They are masters of reinventing themselves. Ministry is stage for them.
And picked up by the AP, too. So much for only a few gossipy women and bitter victims being concerned about SGM…
Jimmy, A Three year old girl was molested and SGM told the parents to forgive right away and not call the authorities. So, that is what you have to say about that? Man, your heart is cold and hard.
In once instance (not sure if part of lawsuit) a mother was told to make her teenage daughter, who had been raped by the dad, leave the home so the dad could be the “head” of the home. Oh and don’t call the authorities, let the church handle it. That is how SGM the shepherding cult works, folks. It is sicko.
I am going to do all I can to make sure it hits the local press here….in the new church plant country.
Jimmy, Three year old girls have value to Christ. Perhaps not to you.
I have no problem with Ambassadors of Reconciliation looking bad. The Sovereign Grace report was a whitewash.
While some individual AoR employees have integrity, it wasn’t a well kept secret that Ted Kober is a long time CJ buddy.
I suppose outcome will depend on state reporting laws during the time of the offenses etc. Whether or not the plaintiffs win, this case is an important step and I hope this becomes a larger class action.
Churches and para-church organizations need to hear the message that their policies and practises have to get up to speed, and the days of excuses (such as spiritualizing) for not protecting children are over.
Kudos to the families who have taken this difficult step of filing, I pray as they hunker down for the long journey through the legal system, they find determination, stamina and support.
Anon1
And in the new plant territory, what will Al Mohler do? He has a real hot potato on his hands.His best buddy, CJ, has been protected at all costs. This will show how manly these men really are?
And as for CJ-I have been thinking about the hit song “Too Late to Apologize.”
“Oh, they protected him big time. They ran interferance for him. Mohler even told a reporter right after CJ stepped down that the bloggers just did not like “strong leadership”.”
Reviewing what was said…because his statements were so disturbing:
“The Sovereign Grace network is separate from the Southern Baptist Convention, the affiliate of Southern Seminary, but Mohler praised Mahaney’s group as “one of the most vital movements of church planting and evangelism and church development in this generation.”
Mohler added: “Any time you’re going to take on the role of leadership, you’re going to have critics.”
Mohler also supported Sovereign Grace’s highly centralized leadership structure in its churches, with “very strong pastoral direction” and internal discipline.
“It’s something clearly called for in the New Testament,” he said.
Mohler said he knew this practice has had online critics for years.”
http://blogs.courier-journal.com/faith/2011/07/12/mohler-backs-mahaney-dismisses-accusations-of-abusive-leadership/
And Ligon’s incredible words which are forever ingrained in my mind:
“I would then encourage you to ignore the assaults of wounded people on attack websites and blogs, and that you discount the opinings of those who have no real knowledge of these matters or relation to SGM or authority to comment upon them, and that you refrain from assuming that you (or they) are in a position to render judgment on these things.”
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2011/07/a-word-about-cj-mahaney-and-so.php
Giving thanks as well that someone is listening to the assaults of wounded people. Praying for all those involved.
The chickens are coming home to roost.
Do any of these celebrity “ministers” ever stand up for justice? Seems all they do is cover each others’ backsides, creating more cynical agnostics and atheists in the process.
“One of the three plaintiffs, a high school student in Virginia, alleges she was sexually assaulted when she was 3 years old and that the mother of the boy who abused her revealed the molestation to the church. But church officials discouraged her family from reporting the allegations to police and, instead, repeatedly interviewed the alleged abuser and worked with him and his mother to determine how best to prevent any prosecution and publicity regarding the abuse.”
I just can’t….in any conceivable way…understand why they would try to hide this…If they REALLY wanted to help this situation…encourage the family to press charges…surround the victim with love and support…and allow the abuser to get proper counseling via the justice system as he faces the consequences of his actions…
All they did was show this young man who comitted this crime that there are no consequences to what he did…
Hope justice will be done…as it should have many years ago…
CJ will burst into tears and wonder why these cases weren’t reported to him. Then we’ll see who, besides his acolytes, will believe him.
I hope the plaintiffs are rewarded in some way, but I hope just as much that SGM will be busted up. Yes, I know this won’t completely solve the problem of their terrible influence, but it will be a good catalyst for bringing truth to bear on the situation.
Diane –
Thanks for reprinting those pathetic words. If Mohler and Duncan say anything, it will probably be along the lines of, “Well, of course this is terrible, but these are just a few isolated cases. We cannot extrapolate from these to condemn SGM, blah, blah, blah.”
“And in the new plant territory, what will Al Mohler do? He has a real hot potato on his hands.”
Not really. Mohler has total power in the SBC. EVeryone is bowing to him. He just made sure another SBC seminary has a new very young and inexperienced Cavlinist president who used to be his personal assistant.
Mohler announced that some who signed the Trad statement need to be “marginalized”. Seems his bosses agree as he was not censored for that statement nor saying that his peers did not know what they were signing and it was semi heresy. EVen after all that and MORE, he was appointed to the “unity” committee for the SBC to bring Calinvists and Trads together.
Nevermind, he is the poster boy for dividing the SBC. See how that works? Mohler already owns and runs the place. It is only a matter of time before everyone sees it. My guess is that SGM as it is left now, will somehow be merged with some church planting group that receives NAMB funds since Mohler’s guy is running that, too.
“Well, of course this is terrible, but these are just a few isolated cases. We cannot extrapolate from these to condemn SGM, blah, blah, blah.”
I think CJ will be protected by his lofty position and the pastors who he trained and followed his teaching– thrown under the bus.
I decided to ask Mohler and Duncan what their thoughts are on the lawsuit. Figured I might as well go directly to the sources.
https://twitter.com/DefendTheSheep/status/258699420076482560
I think that all the SGM acolytes/supporters are going to ignore the content of the lawsuit and instead focus all their attention on the awful sinfulness of taking fellow Christians to court. Why address your own sin when you can try to distract everyone by pointing out everyone else’s?
Yes, Jenn – that is the typical response. And of course the bloggers and those who comment on blogs will be called out as divisive, allowing gossip, etc. It’s so predictable.
Previously, SGM leaders told SGM members to not read the survivor blogs. What are they going to say now? Don’t watch the news?
Jenn,
BINGO!
Julie Anne, You go, girl!
SGM could probably use recommendations for good millstone companies right about now. Maybe ones that gives bulk order discounts? [sarc off]
May God give comfort and strength to the victims, and may they receive from the court the justice they did not receive from the church.
They’ve issued a statement:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Statement-by-Sovereign-Grace-Ministries-on-Reported-Lawsuit.aspx
It has come to the attention of Sovereign Grace Ministries through media outlets that a lawsuit has been filed against Sovereign Grace Ministries related to allegations of child abuse apparently arising in the 1980s and 90s. To date, Sovereign Grace Ministries has not been served with any such lawsuit nor does it have a copy of the lawsuit. Sovereign Grace Ministries is not in a position to comment on the allegations of the reported lawsuit. Child abuse in any context is reprehensible and criminal. Sovereign Grace Ministries takes seriously the Biblical commands to pursue the protection and well being of all people, especially the most vulnerable in its midst, little children.
Victorious –
Hmmm . . . why is the mention of the years so important?
At the bottom of that notice they state that they have over 80 churches, a few days ago it was 100.
Hey Eagle,
The local SGM church near us is right next to a Mormom bookstore. On the other side of the bookstore is a Mormom temple. We drove by them the other day and I told my husband about your comparison of SGM and Mormonism.
Interesting it came to their attention via media.
Bridget, you know what is interesting about the years? the victims grew up and are seeking justice. that is exactly what happened with the Catholic Church.
G. E. –
“They made a TODDLER have a reconciliation meeting with her abuser?? WTF? W.T.F.?”
This is what happens when you have screwed up doctrine where every sin is as bad as the next and you have cherry picked scripture to make it say what you want it to say. When you do this you end up insisting that a toddler (who can’t and shouldn’t HAVE TO process any of what has happened to them yet) forgive a perpetrator. All so the perpetrator can have some feeling of forgiveness – sick.
Anon 1 –
Yes, they have. The victims and their families have tried to get resolve with these pastors for years and have been pushed aside. They can’t ignore them now.
If you want further reading and background, read at SGMsurvivors and SGMrefuge. They have stories on these very cases.
I just want to point out that the news article states that the defendants are “about a half-dozen pastors and church officials”(individuals), not SGM Corporate. That’s probably why the SGM statement says that they have not been served a lawsuit and can’t comment on it.
the victims grew up and are seeking justice. that is exactly what happened with the Catholic Church.
Anon 1, yes because the effects of abuse linger and continue to cause pain in the lives of the abused. Sometimes, they try to bury it by rationalizing it happened so many years ago….but in the end, it’s very much a factor that still hinders their well being.
Thanks, Moniker! Makes sense now.
anonymous
Pray for justice.
Oh, I am absolutely praying for justice Dee! Most certainly I am. As for what your seminary friend said, on the contrary: For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God….
The past few months, I have made the argument that the scrutiny of American non-profits of all kinds has been irrevocably changed in the post-Penn State world. I’ve suggested that the social overseeing applies not just to issues of dealing with sexual abuse perpetrators and advocacy for those victimized, but also to the system issues of peers, administrators, and boards of directors. In the case of Penn State, investigators found that these other parties held some significant levels of responsibility for the damage done to a host of individuals and their families.
Because of the allegations raised in the just-reported class action lawsuit against churches related to the Sovereign Grace Ministries association, I thought this might be a particularly instructive time to take another look at the Freeh Report on Penn State. So I re-read the 7-page press release, which gave a summary of the investigative team’s findings. You’ll find the press release (7 pages), the full report (267 pages), and press conference video of July 12, 2012, at this site:
http://thefreehreportonpsu.com/
As an organizational developer, some of my main concerns for the future of churches, ministries, and Christian non-profit agencies are at the systems level – such as passive boards/trustees and failure to act, lack of holding leaders accountable, active attempts to protect image and reputation at the cost of perpetuating injustice, and ignoring and revictimizing those already harmed by people in the organization. These are exactly the kinds of core problems that were uncovered in the Freeh Report and have come back to haunt Penn State in ways that may never be overcome. And these are exactly the kinds of indicators I have personally witnessed of toxic systems and malignant ministries in multiple Christian settings.
The courts will now sort through the facts and impacts of what happened with those involved in this SGM lawsuit. But if our own organizations are at risk because of deficient and/or unethical systems, what will we do to bring those issues into the light and deal with them … lest we bring on our own lawsuits for our gross negligence and/or active victimization?
So, the Freeh Press Release and Report – worth a reading or re-reading as both a cautionary case study of what NOT to do, and for concrete suggestions on how such system failures can be addressed constructively.
Guys, there’s no need to go calling Jimmy names.
Eagle, I disagree with you with all respect. There are plenty of churches where Christians just get on with the “boring, humdrum” business of being Christians, trying to live as Christians and become more like Christ without big conferences, big initiatives and big doctrinal debates or stances on secondaries. But of course they’re the ones that never get into the news. But I agree that this sort of stuff is grist to the hardcore atheists’ mill, and understandably.
Interestingly I’ve just been reading Charles Colson’s Born Again. Tonight I read the part where he felt as a Christian that his testimony would be damaged by continuing to defend himself in court, so to the horror of his lawyer he made a guilty statement in order to make a clean break with his old life as “Nixon’s hatchet man”. It cost him a sentence of 1-3 years in prison, but it seemed to bespeak the sincerity of his conversion.
This is completely awful. But I have to say coverups are not just the M.O. of megachurches. This happens in small churches too. No one wants to admit this $h*t happens in their churches. I knew a woman who was molested by her father when she was growing up, he was also the PASTOR of her church. Her own family shut her up by (through use of scripture of course!) to keep their reputations clean and keep the father’s ministry from being damaged. She was not only sexually abused, but spiritually abused as well.
There’s no end to the whitewashing tombs in performance-based churches. Do you know how many church-going girls get abortions so no one in the church finds out? Guess who funds it and takes them for the abortions? You guessed it: their outspoken pro-life parents who sit in the pews and pretend the have perfect lives and perfect children and live in perfect peace.
Perfect love casts out fear, but you can’t find a perfect love in a performance-based church. Just lies.
“Anon 1, yes because the effects of abuse linger and continue to cause pain in the lives of the abused. Sometimes, they try to bury it by rationalizing it happened so many years ago….but in the end, it’s very much a factor that still hinders their well being”
That is why it is a heinous crime and SHOULD be prosecuted— those who protect perverts are guilty,too.
If I recall reading about ONE of the incidents, the SGM pastors involved said the perp was only “experimenting” . That is how highly they think of little innocent girls.
“As an organizational developer, some of my main concerns for the future of churches, ministries, and Christian non-profit agencies are at the systems level – such as passive boards/trustees and failure to act, lack of holding leaders accountable, active attempts to protect image and reputation at the cost of perpetuating injustice, and ignoring and revictimizing those already harmed by people in the organization.”
this is key. I have long understood that many of these systems “breed” that sort of response because it becomes about perpetuating and maintaining the system/institution at the cost to the people who fund it. I saw this sort of thinking all the time in the seeker mega churches. They really do think protecting the institution/system is the more moral/ethical thing to do. They believe it serves a “greater good”. I know, they told me and they believe it. That is why I don’t do guru’s or celebrity Christians. I do not trust them. I KNOW what it takes to build that system and make that last. And it is not pretty nor is it of Christ. I have long maintained if folks could see behind the stage and in the meetings, they would be shocked.
Would it not be total irony if the Judge turns out to be a….woman!!!
I think when you get to the heart of it, the problem of any organization involved in abuse scandals is a complete lack of empathy for the victims. Their reaction is not “OMG, that poor [victim]”, it’s “OMG what will this do to the church?”
“Love thy neighbor” is supposed to be the bedrock of Christianity but it is often ignored. Stories like these are the result of that ignorance.
Preach the love.
JeffS, The response that absolutely floors me every time is this one: This will only make an unbelieving world turn against Christ. (or something similar)
I simply cannot understand how people think this way.It seems they are parroting what they have been told.
If anything, it will make an unbelieving world think there are believers out there who care for Justice, truth and seek to protect the most vulnerable of our society. Our children.
The unbelieving world already knows most of what they see coming out of Western Christianity is fake.
There’s no doubt the filing of this lawsuit has been in the works for quite a while and news of it reached SGM headquarters long before today. I can’t help but think this was another reason why CJ hightailed it to Louisville. Now that the news has hit the Washington DC area newspapers, it’s simply easier for him to go out to Starbucks without being recognized or, heaven forbid, questioned about any of this in public.
“I disagree I see the cover up and the harm being pepetuated by Christianity”
I am a believer. Please do not lump me in there.
Eagle, I am hoping others see us here advocating for the victims and know that as believers we love Justice and truth. Personally, reading your comments for a long time here, I find you more compassionate and ready to stand up for those who have been harmed that most institutional Christians because they are too busy defending their guru. You are way past that. You saw through it and paid a big price concerning your mother.
I just do not blame Jesus for the fakes and their followers. They are responsbile for their behavior and actions. And there will be a strict accounting one day for those who “teach” and “lord it over”. I quake in my boots when I think of the accounting for using Jesus for personal gain. Like a box of soap or something.
I am really praying the unbelievers will separate us from the institutionalized version of Christianity. I pray this often after coming out of the institutionalized version of Christianity and seeing some sick stuff.
I will admit, I am kind of sick of the totalitarian niceness movement in Christianity which says we are not to be angry over this sort of heinous sin in what is falsely called a “church”. YOu would not believe the people who “see it” but think it is a sin to talk about it. What did Wendy call them? The Genovese bystanders? Boggles my mind they think it is “Christian” to enable evil. We should be angry and we should do something about it. Mainly we should warn others and tell them, that is not how the REAL Kingdom of God.
All I can do is encourage you not to blame Christ. This is the part where I really get angry about Calvinism which basically teaches God is directing all of this. So, no matter what they do, God is directing it. No, man has total free will and the ability to make choices.
“There’s no doubt the filing of this lawsuit has been in the works for quite a while and news of it reached SGM headquarters long before today.”
What makes you think that sgm knew about it long before today, Evie? I am just curious.
Call it what you like, karma, comeuppance, poetic justice, what goes round comes round. Bloody hell, you can even call it Hosea. They have sown the wind and now they’ll reap the whirlwind.
Great news!!!! Thank you to the three ladies with the courage behind the lawsuit!
SGM is even more exposed now and this will do a lot of good keeping potential members away. I find it interesting that when I left, I told one of the pastors that I was leaving because they are a cult. He then threatened me with a law suit. Now, they are getting sued for the damage that they have cause to the three ladies (and sadly they are not the only three that have been sexually abused in SGM and then have SGM try and cover it up)
To add – I was told that if I ever told anyone that I thought they were a cult, they would come after me with legal action in the form of a lawsuit for slander. FYI – I still say they are a cult.
Freedom, That is unbelievable. But only a threat. What Judge would believe that the former “People of Destiny” with a “lead Apostle” is not just a cult that changed its name? :o)
Anon 1,
It's my guess that SGM knew this was in the works long before it became a reality. When you consider the stories that have come out of SGM, and based on my own experience, the lines of communication are well oiled within the organization. While they preached against members questioning leadership or discussing any decisions they made, they jumped on any negative talk or impressions, calling it gossip & slander – but all the while being incredibly fastidious about knowing everything that was said or done. Case in point: how online accounts of SGM were all glowing, with people quickly going on the attack.
Also, with SGM being as lawyered up as they’ve always been, I’m sure they were forewarned of the very real possibility of a law suit. And with the plaintiffs being known by SGM, you know they had they’re spies watching out for this.
Mahaney relocated his entire family to Kentucky to protect them. By the way, what are the chances his little Miss Biblical Womanhood daughters have trust funds? Any educated guesses?
Freedom – – to save yourself some time and legal fees, try one of these phrases: “I believe they are a cult” “it is my opinion that they are a cult” “they exhibit cult-like behavior” “it is apparent they are a cult” “to my knowledge they are a cult” “by all appearances they are a cult” “I have deduced they are a cult” “I think they’re a freakin’ cult!”
Signed, the Victorious Non-Defamatory Blogger
To add – I was told that if I ever told anyone that I thought they were a cult, they would come after me with legal action in the form of a lawsuit for slander. — Freedom
Sounds like SGM’s been taking lessons from Scientology. “Fair Game Law” and all that.
“It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.” (1 Corinthians 5:1, 2 ESV)
It shows a complete lack of understanding of this text that people go on and on about the need for church discipline for people who divorce or sleep with their fiancées rather than child/spouse abusers.
Bridget –
You’re totally wrong. To SGM every sin isn’t as bad as every other, Egalitarianism is FAR FAR worse than any sin EVER. Which is why little GIRLS are treated so inhumanely. I mean, obviously they’re just little temptresses who probably deserved it. Eve sinned first…after all.
But seriously. Sick. It is my full belief that patriarchy leads to disgusting views on women which in turn leads to even sicker views of little girls. And though as far as I know none from the strict Complementarian camp HAVE called Egalitarianism a sin yet, I’m just waiting for the day.
All of this just serves to show the need to bring in mandatory reporting of ALL abuse allegations AND suspicions. Screw this ‘we need to keep everything in-house’ attitude, it is the worst thing to hide it. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil does not make the evil go away – it lets the evil have a party.
G.E. I’d say referring to it as heresy is pretty much the same wouldn’t you? That’s what Rachel Held Evans has been referred to as. And in CJ Mahaneys most recent sermon he questioned whether someone was actually regenerated who didn’t agree with his perspective on what was considered “important” vs “secondary.” He says so much between the lines – the guy is in deep trouble. He’s scared but pretending like he’s all into what God’s will is – and defining it for anyone who listens. The master of Groupthink. “Think like me! Talk like me! Follow me!” No. Thank. You.
Haha he’ll probably encourage his wife to take the lead and say something about Rachel Held Evans book about her year in “biblical womanhood.” He gives them the job of keeping the ladies in line.
This quote from the SGM website concerning the lawsuit irks me "Sovereign Grace Ministries takes seriously the Biblical commands to pursue the protection and well being of all people, especially the most vulnerable in its midst, little children."
Oh yeah right….they take serious the "protection and well being" of children my left foot! Like when one of my PDI/SGM pastors taught a class of new parents that we should spank with glue sticks and be sure to ask him about a physician that wouldn't check your child's backside because he understood "Biblical" discipline.
And by spanking, were not talking about older children, this was a new born/ toddlers class based on Ezzo with just a smattering of Ted Tripp thrown in for good measure.
I’ve recently been transferred to Louisville from Anchorage and was looking for an evangelical church for my family and I to attend. A co-worker of mine is a member of the SGM church in Louisville, but after reading this site, SGM Refuge, and SGM Survivors, I have my doubts about the church, not the members themselves, but the leadership and how it seems to be an utterly insular institution, sitting in their positions of power and not even feeling a need to answer to God or allowing a questions of faith or dogma by the congregation.
So if you are in Louisville, is there a good Evangelical church to attend?
DC, I was a member of SGM churches for 30 years. Believe me, you are wise to stay away.
DC, you have every reason to be concerned about the people who are members of an SGM church, especially the people who are part of the new plant in Louisville. A counterfeit bill looks real, that’s for sure, and appears to fit right in.
Julie Anne – LOL!!!!!!! SGM won't ever actually take anyone to court, they were always too worried about the perception of the organization (and I knew that at the time!) They also threatened to find me at any church I ever attend in the future and "warn the pastor about me". All these organizations that "exhibit cult-like behaviours" all seem to be reading from the same shepherding manual.
Eagle
The machinations to protect Mahaney and others will be fascinating. Let the games begin.
Evie
You know, that guy at the Lousiville Courier does not seem to be overly impressed with CJ’s problems. Let’s add a little alleged pedophilia coverup into the mix and I think there will be some reaction. CJ may need to invest in a wig.
Freedom
He threatened to sue you for saying it was a cult? May they reap what they sowed. Boy were those guys drunk with the power in their little kingdoms. This will not play well in the court of public opinion. But first, they have to protect Mahaney.
Freedom
Would you like to a write a post about that? It might be very timely.
Evie
Roger Olson wrote a great post on RHE's book. CJ does not have the theological background to approach Olson.
This new "you might not be regenerated if you don't agree with me" is becoming rampant amongst the Cavinistas. A local Reformed pastor said that about two friends of mine. He is not fit to tie their shoes.
doubtful
We have written quite a bit on this despicable punishment of babies. You know, it might be interesting to let some newspapers know about SGM’s commitment to obedience by teaching parents to whack babies.
Anon1
DC is looking for a good church in Louisville. Don’t you know some folks in that area?
Dee – Let me think about that and get back to you!
DC
If you’re in the East End I know a really great little Baptist church (~120 on Sunday mornings) that would love to have you. The worship minister is a total dork though. 😉
Anon1
Hey, is there any way I could get in touch with you? I have a feeling we have either met each other or at the very least have mutual friends (through SECC).
While this is not on the subject of SGM, it is on the subject of pedophilia–and some churches (not just Mormon, btw) sponsor scout troops.
This is (I think) the third in a series of articles about the Boy Scouts covering up pedophilia.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-scouts-patterns-20121017,0,906096.story
Julie Anne – LOL!!!!!!! SGM won’t ever actually take anyone to court, they were always too worried about the perception of the organization (and I knew that at the time!) — Freedom
“Perception of the organization”? Is that the same thing as Chesterton’s turn of phrase in that one Father Brown Mystery, “Not Heavenly Virtue but Hellish Respectability”?
P.S. From experience in real-life Dilbert Zones, “The Organization” is a buzzword used by Yes-Men in devotions to their REAL Personal LORD and Savior. One guy where I used to work used it all the time in his pep talks. We called him “Smithers” (after the mousy yes-man from The Simpsons) behind his back.
They also threatened to find me at any church I ever attend in the future and “warn the pastor about me”. — Freedom
Just like little kids threatening to Tattle on You to Mommy or the Teacher. “BE *NICE* TO ME OR I’LL TELL ON YOU!!! I’LL TELL ON YOU!!!! I’LL TELL ON YOU!!!! I’LL TELL ON YOU!!!!!”
And by spanking, were not talking about older children, this was a new born/ toddlers class based on Ezzo with just a smattering of Ted Tripp thrown in for good measure. — Doubtful
With the twelve-inch glue sticks because they don’t leave marks. Worn openly by parents so the kid never forgets. Were there any fatalities in this newborn/toddlers’ class?
This new “you might not be regenerated if you don’t agree with me” is becoming rampant amongst the Cavinistas. A local Reformed pastor said that about two friends of mine. He is not fit to tie their shoes. — Dee
What happens when two of these Truly Reformed One True Way Calvinistas come together? The Universe cannot have two centers.
I just want to point out that the news article states that the defendants are “about a half-dozen pastors and church officials”(individuals), not SGM Corporate. That’s probably why the SGM statement says that they have not been served a lawsuit and can’t comment on it. — Moniker
No, Moniker, that means they TECHNICALLY have not been served.
Technicality, Technicality, Technicality.
Semantics, Semantics, Semantics.
Just like a lawyer who got caught and is trying to talk his way out.
“It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”
HUG – Okay, maybe I don’t understand how these things work. But SGM and CLC have both issued statements saying that they haven’t been served with or received a copy of the complaint. Does the media sometimes publish a story like this before the defendant is actually served with a lawsuit? I’m just trying to figure it out. We don’t have much to go on – just the AP story and SGM’s and CLC’s brief statements.
Moniker: Based on my recent lawsuit. We knew about the lawsuit before I was served. AP would never have published the story if it was not filed – – too much risk for them. Someone must have notified AP after the suit was filed. Anyone local could probably go to the courthouse and find the court papers for a small fee. They are public. It took about a week after we “heard” about the lawsuit until the process server hand-delivered the official papers at our home.
Thanks, Julie Anne.
It is going to be very interesting to see what law firm is going to be retained by SGM, CLC and any other of the SGM member church that may get hit by the legal buckshot.
(oops) fired from Burke’s shotgun
Headless Unicorn-
I’m not aware of any deaths at SGM due to these parenting practices,but I am aware that many of the children I knew as youngsters rebelled mightily when they hit the teen years…the very thing that these pastors were saying was avoidable by these draconian parenting practices.
I had Care group leaders offering me up glue sticks to spank my oldest son when he was a little testy at a chruch event. I politely declined and we left the church soon after.
Dee, sadly I would be reluctant to recommend any evangelical Church in Louisville. SBTS’ influence is everywhere. there are tons of seminary students looking for jobs and they cannot plant Reformed churches fast enough. therefore the pool for staff pastors like youth ministers children ministers….. are coming from SBTS. and these young men have learned the drill. they are quick to tell search committees they are not like those other YRR guys but when they get in position they are promoting Piper, Mahaney, etc. so you end up getting the same effect.
the most interesting aspect about all this…. is how the young restless and reformed are even infiltrating Wesleyan churches and schools raising havoc!
it is uncanny how much it is like what is described in the Book of Jude.
As I understand it, you file a suit, then YOU hire a process server to track down the people involved and serve them a copy of your suit. Or in some areas the local sheriff gets to do the serving. But if you, the one who’s filing the suit, want to get ahead of the media coverage you file and then go to the media. Which will almost always mean the one being sued is at least a day or two behind in the details.
And to be honest, I don’t care who you are, if you think you’ve been sured you should keep you mouth shut until you get the papers AND talk to an attorney. Any other course of acting is likely an exercise in hole digging. Because you, the one being sued, should never say anything at that point without a clear understanding of what the issues are.
Which is why almost every news report of a suit against a business of any kinds elicits the “we haven’t seen it and have no comment at this time” response.
MikeO
Pedophilia is a very difficult issue. There is a gut reponse to both those who abuse children and to those who cover it up. Joe Paterno and Penn State discovered that. If this gets to court, I think an attempt will be made for an out of court settlement. If not, it will be ugly. SGM will be deeply wounded.
Any readers who can help us with details of what the “discovery” process might involve here? I suspect lawsuits like this may happen in the future as well, and I’d like to understand better.
Given this is apparently aimed at specific individuals rather than churches, what would discovery likely delve into?
Although, since these are all apparently staff members of non-profits/churches, does that also put the church’s records and documents and electronic documents under the umbrella of potential discovery?
Does it alter the process, given the state the suit was filed in, or the states in which the alleged incidents took place?
How does a class action suit change the discovery and litigation process, if at all?
Other questions I/we should be asking or issues we should be watching for in order to get better informed on what discovery entails?
Thanks …
In most states:
Timing issues: When a suit is served, a clock starts. The defendant must answer or file a motion to defeat the suit without even having to file an answer.
Either with the suit or shortly after the suit is filed, the plaintiff’s attorney will send discovery requests (the defense attorneys can also send these to the plaintiffs). These come in the following forms. (1) a request for basic information, called disclosure, which ids the parties and any possible other parties the recipient of the request may seek to add to the suit, theories of the case and potential witnesses. (2) a request for documents and other things — called production, potentially relevant papers, pictures, diaries, computer files (may include getting access to the actual computer). (3) a request for admissions, which if any are not answered become deemed admitted as true. (4)Interrogatories — basically questions to be answered by the party.
After some time to digest all of the above, depositions can be scheduled where the party or other witness is asked questions under oath, with a transcript prepared and usually a video taken. There can also be inspections of property, vehicles, etc.
Any changes made to evidence after the suit has been filed/served can be labelled spoliation, which means that it is presumed that any destruction or change was made to enhance that parties chances in court under the presumption that the evidence was more damaging before than it is now.
Of course, each side has some tools to limit what the other side can get, etc., but generally, pre-trial, everything becomes an open book to the other side if the attorney is competent and diligent, and the delaying and limiting tactics can be used against the party so acting.
Hope this helps.
Many thanks for the tutorial, An Attorney. That helps a lot with what to be watching for. Thanks for taking the time to do that for us …
Yes, very helpful, An Attorney. Thanks!
Anon1
Hey, is there any way I could get in touch with you? I have a feeling we have either met each other or at the very least have mutual friends (through SECC).”
Craig, I will email dee or deb and ask them to pass it on to you. I would like to hear about your church.
Eagle
I fail to see how an incidence of pedophilia is “playing into the hands of atheists.” Or how it is some cause of celebration because the pedo happens to be a Christian.
All I have to say is there are a variety of reasons for some people being atheist as there are a variety of reasons for some people being Christian. I’m not going to go into any deep analysis, but If you go at it from the skeptical angle, as I do, one fails to see how a 2,000 year old text, rife with all of the clues of being written by earthly humans during a period when superstitious beliefs were grossly taken for granted, should be considered truth. Why is it that the unbelievable claims from this text should be taken more seriously than the thousands of unbelievable claims from other sources, other than the fact that the unbelievable claims from this particular text has a strong cultural and historical influence in the Western world, I fail to see one.
That’s all I wanted to say. Whether Christian’s are acting in a way that is moral or immoral is irrelevant to the truth of the divine claims within their holy book. I am just surprised that you would think that the rape of children is somehow playing into the hands of atheists as if it is to somehow affirm our thoughts on religion. Personally, it doesn’t move my position one iota.
Mikey1
I spent a number of years reading the anittestimonies over at ExChristians along with reading Dawkins, Hitchens,Ehrman, Harris and Tarico. I learned much by listening. You comment rings true from what I heard. It appears that many atheists reject the faith on intellectual grounds.
Although I understand that you perceive that the claims of the Bible are unbelievable, there are many really smart people who do believe the claims. So, it is difficult to say that the claims, in general, are unbelievable because many do so believe. Perhpas you meant that for you the claims are unbelievable.
For me, the Christian faith provides the best explanation for the world and the people that I see around me as well as for the narrative of human history. I don’t have all the answers and I struggle with some of the specifics but it still makes the most sense. Somehow, I believe that, in the end, justice will be achieved. That the children who starve to death today will one day experience their fill. That there is more to life than living a few years and dying-the end, the bitter end. I believe that we long for eternity because we were created with that longing.
Thank you for your comment. I enjoyed reading your thoughts. They are challenging.
"I fail to see how an incidence of pedophilia is “playing into the hands of atheists.” Or how it is some cause of celebration because the pedo happens to be a Christian. "
I would disagree that one who practices the molestation of children is "Born Again", a "New Creature" in Christ or any other descriptor Christ used. I know many Christians disagree with me on this. I happen to believe that practicing sin that harms other people is inconsistent with the indwellling Holy Spirit which believers receives. Do we sin? Yes, of course.
But to think we are raping, wiping out people, molesting children, protecting evil toward others is beyond my scope when I read the Gospels. Makes me want to hide the silver and lock up the kids when the "Christians" are coming over.
I get weary of hearing folks try to explain how Born Again believers can murder, rape, molest children, etc, etc.
I have been gone for several weeks and am delighted to come back and find all this! I’ve got some serious catching up to do!
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