Two spiral galaxies in the process of merging. NASA/James Webb
“The main question is not ‘How can we hide our wounds?’ so we don’t have to be embarrassed, but ‘How can we put our woundedness in the service of others?’ ” Henri Nouwen
This was always the inevitable outcome. This announcement was no bombshell for those of us who have survived Mark Driscoll and his acolytes, along with Doug Wilson and his fanboys. What became curious for many was the theodudes, along with their theo-galpals, who attempted to soothe the expressed angst by making it seem OK. In early March 2023, I wrote The Controversy Over Josh Butler’s Book, Beautiful Union, Rightly Embarrasses TGC’s The (Tim) Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics, The Gospel Coalition Editorial Staff, and Various Theobros and Theogals.
The Gospel Coalition, acting just like they did with Driscoll, Wilson, and Mahaney, jumped at the chance to share a delightful excerpt from his book Beautiful Union: How God’s Vision for Sex Points Us to the Good, Unlocks the True, and (Sort of) Explains Everything (Stupid title, BTW.)
As they have in the past, they acted like little boys, getting to discuss sex acts. I forgot that women editors at TGC also allowed this nonsense to be published. I guess if one is a member of TGC, a “fellow of TGC’s own “Keller Center,” then one’s publication will never be questioned since “he is one of our own.” So even “complementarian female authors” fall for this nonsense. And that is the most problematic of all.
Get ready for Butler’s “gospel bombshell” (his words.)
sex is an icon of salvation” and uses the sexual act to describe our relationship to Christ:
“Generosity and hospitality are both embodied in the sexual act.
The husband pours out his generosity in an orgasm.
And what deeper form of self-giving is there than sexual union where the husband pours out his very presence not only upon but within his wife?
The wife is hospitable, preparing a place for that “generosity.”
what deeper form of hospitality is there than sexual union where the wife welcomes her husband into the sanctuary of her very self?
At this point, I had to pick myself off the floor and wondered if I was the only one banging my head on the kitchen table and scaring the pugs. This is not the gospel, theobro. What were you thinking? Wait…maybe I don’t want to know. Butler admits to a checkered past involving sex, and it appears he is not over it yet.
Butler, who pastors Redemption Church Tempe, starts out by confessing that he used to “look to sex for salvation” before realizing that “idolizing sex results in slavery.” As he recounts a series of failed romantic adventures
Note what I said at the end of this section.
Redemption Church, beware. There is something not right about this.
TGC endorsers don’t read the books they are endorsing, including women.
You can read the post and see examples of this nonsense. What caused me to bang my head on the table is that the women either kept their mouths shut or said something so stupid that one has to wonder if they even read the book. For example, Jen Michel Pollock said she cried when supposedly reading this book.
Thankfully, the women of The View did not invite Butler, and his “egalitarian” wife to appear on the show. Can anyone forget Driscoll’s wife clutching his hand in what looked like abject terror? Unfortunately, the appearance is not currently on their website, but here is an article about it.
I am deeply disappointed that TGC women, taking a cue from their TGC theodude husbands, largely kept their mouths shut. Thankfully Sheila Gregoire, not one of the theogals, did not: MY V@GINA IS NOT MY “MOST HOLY PLACE”: A RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL COALITION.
TGC and related fanboys did their awesome best to Driscollize the book.
As before, when Driscoll was doing his dance and the TGC boys joined the conga line, they tried to make all of us, who knew this theology was whack, join the line dance.
Josh tried to make it seem like we were nuts, and he was unwise to release only a portion of his book since if we read the whole thing, we would love it: Josh Butler Addresses Criticisms of His TGC Article About ‘God’s Vision for Sex.’
“I was unwise to allow that excerpt to be used in a short article,” said Butler, who shared that his “heart has been extremely heavy the last few weeks.” He added later in the episode that the excerpt makes more sense within the context of his book,
I particularly loved this response:
expecting people to give Butler’s book a chance after being repulsed by the excerpt is like expecting them to buy a whole box of cereal at Costco after being disgusted by the sample they tried, said user Erin Harding.
Preston Sprinkle did his best to stand by his man.
Preston Sprinkle, the president of the Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender and who has also endorsed the book, tweeted “Killer book!!” when the controversy erupted and has stood by his endorsement.
…Preston Sprinkle said that he wanted to have Josh Butler on his podcast in order to “have an in-depth, thoughtful conversation” about what had happened. Sprinkle stated that he has been good friends with Butler for some time and that he did read all of his book. While Sprinkle does not agree with everything Butler wrote, he thought the book was “extremely good.”
Jared Wilson did it again. He said it and then removed it. But there is always Wayback.
TGC doubled down with a follow-up post by Jared Wilson where he claimed the “outrage” simply didn’t understand his larger context.
Efforts to redeem him failed miserably.
Unfortunately for Butler and fortunately for us, the outcry of his nonsense was thorough.
Women took umbrage at his “Man is dominate” language. However, this particular passage made me laugh. It was the first time I ever heard of the “sacrificial” aspect of the sex act.
on her wedding night the bride “gladly receives the warmth of [her husband’s] presence and accepts the sacrificial offering he bestows upon the altar within her Most Holy Place.”
Here is a post that looks at the broad spectrum of those who were not impressed “Inappropriate, gross and completely offensive”: TGC article controversy explained as Joshua Butler new book sparks outrage.
Butler wrote more as he attempted to defend himself, which failed miserably: The Ethics of Contraception.
Darn, the diaphragm, prevents the full reception of the husband’s sacrificial gift. Who knew?
Contraception interrupts the full consummation of “one flesh” union. A condom dams up the “river of life,” preventing its life-giving waters from reaching the opposite shore. With a diaphragm, a barrier is placed at the most intimate point of contact, preventing a full reception of the gift within the generative holy space of the womb. Birth control intentionally denies a fruitfulness that points forward to the future hope of the kingdom, in the eschatological abundance of the new creation. (For the biblical background to the imagery in this paragraph, see particularly Chapters 5 and 13 – 15 of Beautiful Union).
Josh Butler was forced to resign from the church that he pastored.
Enough of this codswallop. Anyone with half a brain knew where this was going to end up. The TGC crowd once more demonstrated their foolishness.
Why did I use the word “forced?” Here is your assignment. Read his resignation letter and see if you can read between the lines.
Begin letter
A Personal Update from Josh Butler
Dear Redemption Tempe,
I love you. You are my church family, and I want to share an update with you. In a recent members’ email, we updated you on an unfolding situation regarding an excerpt from my forthcoming book that generated some controversy. We provided a summary of the events and how we realized that, rather than make any hasty decisions, it would be wise to take some time to pray and process together.
Now, I want to update you on where we’ve landed: I am resigning as co-lead pastor of Redemption Tempe. I have processed this with our elders and am writing this together with them, with a desire to share my reasons for resigning with you.
We have found ourselves in an impossible situation. On the one hand, I feel called to step more into these public conversations. I desire to be humble, charitable, winsome, and wise. There are some mistakes I’ve made I wish to own but also deep convictions I hold that I wish to contribute to the broader conversation. Our elders have been unanimous, alongside multiple mentors and leaders I trust (within Redemption and beyond) in affirming this sense of priority in this season.
On the other hand, I don’t want to drag Redemption into that public conversation with me. The toll of this controversy on many of our staff and leaders this month has been intense, at both Redemption Tempe and other Redemption Arizona congregations. While they have borne that burden well, I am concerned that my continuing to step into this public conversation would generate distraction from the primary ministry God has called us to as a local church. As elders, we’ve affirmed this assessment together.
There is also a time factor, with the book releasing this week. Over the last month, I have prioritized being present to Redemption in our local context over the broader national conversation. As the book officially launches, however, I desire to be present to that broader conversation and to create some healthy distance from Redemption congregations being so closely identified with my voice and perspective.
I want to affirm that this resignation is a joint decision between the elders of Redemption Tempe and I, in conversation with broader Redemption Arizona leadership, not something that is being forced upon me. We explored multiple options to make something work, and we have undertaken this in prayerful discernment over many conversations together this last month. We agreed to a “Discernment and Repair” process. We have concluded together that the Discernment process (regarding my sense of direction for the season ahead and whether I would remain a pastor at Redemption Tempe) is complete. The Repair process is something I will continue to be committed to as a member of Redemption Tempe.
I want to affirm that I am committed to a process of repair with any members of Redemption who desire it. For some of you, my lack of greater pastoral nuance in areas of the excerpt evoked pain, particularly for some women with histories of sexual abuse. I want to apologize for not showing greater consideration for how my words in this section could be heard from within your shoes. I’m truly sorry.
I’ve worked with the publisher to make revisions to the excerpt based on a dozen additional sensitivity reviews I commissioned this last month from women (including sexual abuse survivors, counselors, and those who grew up in purity culture). These revisions will be incorporated into the next printing of the book.
I will still be available to any of you in our church who are confused, hurt, frustrated or angry over anything I’ve written, said, or done. The calendar link we set up last month will still be available for the Repair season ahead, where you can set up an appointment with me (email Jackie Bolitho: jackiebolitho@redemptionaz.com). I care about your pain and your story and commit to simply listening, not seeking to explain, defend, or justify. I care about you. Also, please know the leadership of Redemption Tempe is always available to you.
Finally, if you are interested in keeping up with what I’m up to, I’ll be updating my website and newsletter with interviews, articles, and key projects I’m working on: HERE.
I’ve loved leading at Redemption Tempe, love you all as my church family, and am looking forward to what God has in store for the season ahead. I look forward to worshiping together with you next Sunday.
In Christ, Josh
End letter.
OK, folks, I’ll give your my first take on this letter.
- He plans to become more public with his thoughts—more writings.
- I think he was forced to resign due to this wish for more public exposure.
- There is a reason that there were “problems.”
- He has discerned that his season at Redemption is over. Shades of CJ Mahaney! He’s still wrapped up in the jargon.
- He will remain a Redemption Church member while seeking more “public conversation.” That’ll be fun for the members.
- There appears to be some damage in his relationships with the members, which he will “seek” to repair.
- He’s revising his book, which means the book will continue to achieve controversy.
- There is no such thing as bad publicity when one wants to make money and be in the public eye.
In the meantime, I hope that the “complementarian women” who cried tears over the supposed beauty of this book do some thinking. The female editors of TGC kept their mouths shut. Do they have agency when a stupid book like this comes along? Did they not realize how this could harm the “public conversation?”
Brett McCracken said Butler’s book was a magnum opus demonstrating that he has no idea what that term means.
Finally, Brett McCracken, Senior Editor and Communications Director of TGC, had this to say.
When Butler’s article was first published, McCracken tweeted, “One of today’s best Christian thinkers on the theology of sex and gender is @ButlerJosh. His forthcoming book, ‘Beautiful Union,’ is the Protestant magnum opus on sexual ethics we’ve been waiting for.”
Through my many years of religiously reading articles at TGC, I have concluded that there are serious flaws in their editorial department. It seems to me all one has to do is be part of the theodudes and a member of the right churches, including Sovereign Grace Churches, to get an article published.
Maybe he should start by studying the great works of great writers of which Butler is not one.
Last?
“We agreed to a “Discernment and Repair” process.“
How often does that largely equate to letting headlines die down and then proceeding, perhaps in a more guarded or potentially stealthy way?
That letter is the biggest bunch of cow poop I have read in years.
“ There appears to be some damage in his relationships with the members, which he will “seek” to repair.”
My imaginary friend “Fred” is very distraught right now over his relationship with Pastor “Sam”. Seems Pastor thinks Fred and his wife “Frieda” have been praying wrongly about one of Sam’s kids. But we – I mean they, if they existed- have only prayed in the closet except one time Frieda prayed with Mrs Sam and another lady at Mrs Sam’s request…. So Pastor confronted Frieda after a meeting while Fred was at work. Fred asked Pastor Sam to get together so we – I mean they- could discuss the matter and find out just what we’ve done to damage the relationship… Fred suggested a couple times — sorry I’m out of town til Sunday was Sam’s reply. Well, I’m available first part of the week… crickets it’s now Friday and they’ve heard gossip and slander that Pastor Sam is sorry about what he said — but from him — crickets! Does he want them to leave the church? Did they do something so horrible it can’t even be discussed?
“I finished these pages in tears”–Jen Pollock Michel
+++++++++++++++++
now, i’m not a gambling woman by nature, but i have no hesitation saying to Jen,
No, you didn’t.
And you know you didn’t.
From the original post:
“Butler, who pastors Redemption Church Tempe, starts out by confessing that he used to “look to sex for salvation” before realizing that “idolizing sex results in slavery.” As he recounts a series of failed romantic adventures”
As someone who isn’t, and who has never had sex, used to be a serious Christian (my current spiritual status: unknown), I can say that too many Christians have made sex into an idol, when they’re not idolizing marriage or the nuclear family.
All the marriage ‘n sex talk can be very alienating to celibate adults, never married adults, etc. (Also, frankly, it’s very WEIRD.)
Sex doesn’t become less an idol just because a man exchanges secular, “worldly” sex for married sex – and that sounds like what Butler and a lot of other Christians (especially complementarians) have done.
Sex is still an idol to them, only now it’s all about _married_ sex, and I don’t see how that is a big improvement.
Maybe tears as in the word that rhymes bears? Maybe she finished the pages by tearing them up?
elastigirl,
Well, I wouldn’t have finished those pages, but I would have been in tears……… I would have laughed until I cried!
This is like a Saturday Night Live spoof!!!!
John Belushi with a Bible??????
“TGC women, taking a cue from their TGC theodude husbands, largely kept their mouths shut.”
++++++++++++++++
to be associated with TGC is an embarrassment.
and a measure of active self-promotion at the cost of integrity, intelligence, reason, & most importantly destructive impact born by others.
so cavalier & glib in what they rattle off with ease… it’s always *others* who bear the brunt it. all the TGC-ers seem to be aware of is their own brand & career enhancement.
all their stupid nonsense, preening themselves with how profound they think they are.
.
.
it’s like reading the transcript from a multi-level-marketing convention
(which i reluctantly once attended at the invitation of a friend…. i endured a few hours of it, then found the most convenient way to bail.
really, it was just like church & christian culture. so had to bail on that, too, to maintain my own integrity)
.
.
women at TGC, raise your personal, professional, and moral standards. if you’re going to don the influencer hat, we expect from you.
(not addressing TGC men– can’t see they’re capable of anything better)
elastigirl,
women at TGC, raise your personal, professional, and moral standards. if you’re going to don the influencer hat, we expect betterfrom you.
(d*mn, missed the key word)
I don’t know on this one Dee. Perhaps it is another example of these guys turning their backs on a colleague when the heat gets turned up.
I admit I am a complementarian and more on the “elder rule” side than most of your readers, but that leads me to take issue with the other elders not having this guy’s back. Wise leaders would have their finger on the pulse of the congregation and know how a book like this might become a lightning rod and a distraction.
Let’s see if others distance themselves from him. That would prove that they did not read the book like you say.
Daisy,
“All the marriage ‘n sex talk can be very alienating to celibate adults, never married adults, etc. (Also, frankly, it’s very WEIRD.)”
++++++++++++++++++
they’re like young men trying to prove themselves by pretending to be dr. ruth westheimer.
(odd couple of the century… it’s just insufferable)
Thanks for this article Dee. I have a few thoughts. First, you linked to a great article by Rick Pidcock, here is the link again: https://baptistnews.com/article/we-dont-need-more-context-to-understand-josh-butlers-article-on-sex-and-the-church/
I think Rick Pidcock is an excellent writer, he seems to churn out consistently great articles. In this article he quotes David Morris (who has 25 years of experience in publishing). Morris was honest and confirms what many of us already knew about Christian publishing.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“In an interview with Baptist News Global, David Morris of Lake Drive Books shared his thoughts on the topic based on his 25 years of experience in publishing. Morris said this aspiration is where things get complicated, leading many authors to opt for finding endorsers with whom they already have a relationship. And because of that relationship, the endorser “might decide not to read every word of a book, which you have to imagine happens more than you might realize,” Morris said.
At root, book publishing is a business that relies on platforms and marketing, he added. “Evangelical publishing is big business, bigger than most people realize. There are large sums of money paid by publishers to pastors, parachurch speakers, social media influencers, and today, more celebrities than ever, not necessarily people who are writers, experts or more authentic spiritual thinkers, who bring more substance and are less concerned about form or appearance. As a result, the temptation to lean on individuals with larger platforms and aspire higher is hard to resist, and the temptation of an endorser to get their name on someone else’s book is also strong. That’s when it becomes easier to operate without a real relationship between the author and the endorser, and that’s perhaps when the trouble starts.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
My second thought is actually a question. Who is Josh Butler’s hair stylist?
JDV,
“I finished those pages in tears”, she said in her book review for the world to see.
“Maybe tears as in the word that rhymes bears? Maybe she finished the pages by tearing them up?”
++++++++++++++++++++
well, that would be some delicious passive resistance.
if only it were true.
but i much prefer direct & plain-spoken.
These days, can you expect anything else from professional Christians?
And just like Dune, The $pice Must Flow.
As Big Eva grows into House Harkonnen.
Sounds like Jen Pollock Michel needs to GROW UP.
Because that expression just reeks of Drama-Rama.
George,
“Wise leaders would have their finger on the pulse of the congregation and know how a book like this might become a lightning rod and a distraction.”
++++++++++++++++++
my honest response is that typical male leaders would be oblivious to such things.
women are the ones with keen powers of observation & discernment. their gatekeepers are not worthy of them.
Sprinkle, Wilson?? ..How can people read those excerpts and not know something is wrong?
And what deeper form of self-giving is there than sexual union where the husband pours out his very presence not only upon but within his wife? ….
what deeper form of hospitality is there than sexual union where the wife welcomes her husband into the sanctuary of her very self?
I could fill a page with my thoughts about these excerpts, but I’ll be considerate and keep it brief. Butler needs to take in several foster children; work at a homeless shelter; mow lawns for elderly home owners or volunteer at a nursing home; donate blood, bone marrow, and maybe even a kidney.
Maybe he will rethink what it means to be ‘self-giving’, and what ‘hospitality’ means.
This one was a no-brainer … Butler’s days in the ministry were numbered. He should have never been in a pulpit in the first place (pulpits used to be reserved for the holy and pure). I’m not even sure the public is ready for his conversation.
Apparently all manor of people read those excerpts (even the entire book) and praised that hideous book.
It’s disturbing that so many people buy into this nonsense
Is there something in the water in Arizona that just makes people weird??
Nothing in the water that makes the residents weird, but we do draw our share of “Christian” wackos. James MacDonald, Mark Driscoll, and now we can add Josh Butler. Sedona reportedly is a “spiritual vortex” that New Agers and such come to from all over the world. Maybe those spiritual forces drew the above mentioned individuals here!
https://visitsedona.com/spiritual-wellness/what-is-a-vortex/
It’s about power, and that’s where the high comes from.
True.
Most men are clueless.
My second thought is actually a question. Who is Josh Butler’s hair stylist?
Todd Wilhelm,
I know I shouldn’t say this, but I’ve been a thinkin’ it ever since I read your question hours ago, so I’m gonna say it anyway.
If Butler was in my neck of the woods, I’d be convinced that his hair stylist was a lineman with Pennyrile Rural Electric!
Resident of Arizona here and I don’t think Arizona is that crazy. Or at least it doesn’t hold a candle to the crazy that is Utah. I used to say that there was more crazy per inhabited square mile (very important, most of Utah is quite wild, beautiful and empty) in Utah.
Now about Joshua Butler. I don’t know how he’s going to be able to have public conversations when he blocks people on Twitter who call him out, as I did in late 2021 after he wrote a very shallow, dismissive article (again for TGC) about deconstruction.
The other thing that COMPLETELY and UTTERLY frustrates me about this whole situation–and I think it says volumes about Evangelicalism–is that Josh Butler’s theology only works for married men and their wives, and really only for married men. You can’t have the revelation of Josh Butler’s theology unless you’re married, because in Evangelicalism, it is a given that one should not be having sexual relations unless one is married.
What Josh, his publisher, his editors, the initial readers of his book, the people who wrote endorsements (oops, they didn’t really read it), TGC and theobros in general fail to realize is that this book cuts out anyone who is not married. And while I don’t know the stats for men, I do know that slightly over 50 percent of US adult women are either single, divorced or widowed. So this book, with the subtitle “How God’s Vision for Sex Points Us to the Good, Unlocks the True, and (Sort of) Explains Everything” is a slap in the face to us not-married people. It’s a false gospel because it excludes us.
I know I have been a one note trumpet about this in various places, but seriously, everyone, and I mean everyone, has missed this. I can only put it off to emphasis on marriage within Evangelicalism, and alternately, the way not-married people are treated.
/end of rant
A man’s “generous” gift poured out as “sacrifice” is (a) idolatrous and (b) simply inaccurate.
Women deal with the very physical discomforts and risks of pregnancy and childbirth, not men. This is anecdotal evidence, but hardly a statistical anomaly: I had a life-threatening complication during labor with my oldest AND my tailbone broke during delivery. Next pregnancy left me with mild sciatica.
When you add evidence of the orgasm gap (thank you, Sheila Gregoire) between men and women, it is women making the sacrifices during intercourse, not men.
Is it weird so say that some of the excerpts from “Beautiful Union,” like the one Dee quoted about the wedding night, read like over-spiritualized porn?
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
I don’t think it’s just unmarried people Butler cuts out. Seems to me he cuts out all females.
And what deeper form of self-giving is there than sexual union where the husband pours out his very presence not only upon but within his wife?
This statement from his book gives me a creepy vomit-taste-in-the back-of-my-mouth feeling that he equates the ejaculation of a male to Jesus dying on the cross! Eeeewwww…….. But there, I said it.
Christianity, are you okay?
(It’s a rhetorical question.)
That guy is walking around with a god level dose of warped thinking.
“he equates the ejaculation of a male to Jesus dying on the cross”
+++++++++++
well, if a 12-year old boy could wax theologic in his preoccupation with his member while reading something like Romans 8, this would be it.
gadzooks good grief and oh gaaaawwwwwwwd
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Some folks live their lives between their legs and that’s all there is to it. Even their theology ends up there. They subjugate and violate women there. They drag and violate children there. Sick lives. It’s subhuman, really. Ferals roam streets as predators.
Jesus, the Son of God, walked this earth. He had nothing to do with this. He lived, was executed, rose to life, and reigns – never having anything to do with this. We are Jesus’ disciples. As Jesus’ disciples, we also have nothing to do with this.
Yes, there is marriage for some of us, some of the time (people live and die). Jesus, however, never married and never had children.
Marriage and children fall under the 2nd commandment of Jesus: Love your neighbor as yourself. However, the Love your neighbor as yourself requires neither marrying or having children. Jesus never did either and He completely fulfilled both commandments (Love God with all, love neighbor as self). Jesus also fulfilled completely the Divine purpose of His life while here on Earth.
We are Jesus’ disciples with God’s Divine purpose for each of us. This may include marriage and children (unlike Jesus). This may NOT include marriage and children (like Jesus). In any case, we are called to love God with all, love our neighbor as ourselves – exactly like Jesus.
With or without marriage and children, we are called to walk and live in love, in fellowship with God, filled with God’s Holy Spirit, with the fruits of the HS, gifted by the HS for the Body of Christ, and in fellowship with Jesus’ other disciples.
IMHO.
Ava Aaronson,
Right now I am listening to James Patterson’s book, “Filthy Rich”. James Patterson, a successful writer, was a neighbor of Jeffrey Epstein in a wealthy neighborhood. Patterson observed that Epstein was off, even as his uninvolved neighbor. Much of the material for this book about Epstein is pulled from public records. The book details a man, Epstein, making choices and using his talents to end up completely feral, along with his partner in crime, the woman Ghislaine Maxwell. Power, money, vice.
Epstein started out as an academic, particularly talented with mathematics from a very young age. He ended up on Wall Street, solving the financial entanglements of the extremely wealthy, using algorithms or math in the process. Epstein was so good at this, his fee became $50M per contract. Yes, that’s fifty million dollars from each client (billionaires). He saved them so much money in not paying taxes and such, that Epstein was worth it to them.
From there, Epstein and his moneyed clients can have anything they want, via dollars, so Epstein sets up a lifestyle for himself of girls ages 13-16 servicing him 3x a day. He manipulated, violated, and degraded girls 3x daily. Feral, evil, demonic.
Some, but not all, of the moneyed clients of Epstein, also participated in violating girls. With power and money, they go for what their most base desires seek, they sink to a sick, evil, criminal lifestyle. Epstein lived his life between his legs. To do so, he violated hundreds of girls whom he paid.
People who use theology to service their base desires for power, money, and vice are no better. They are worse. They use God to get what they – not God – want. They have nothing to do with God. They are tools of the devil, manipulating, violating, and degrading others for the purposes of their desires. I believe this is why Jesus was so angry with the business people in the Temple.
When we love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, AND we love our neighbor as ourselves, we distinguish ourselves from the power/money/vice lifestyles of the rich and famous. We live humble and holy lives in fellowship with God and Jesus’ disciples. By the grace of God, we choose the blessed life of love, joy, and peace with our God.
Ava Aaronson,
Think about it. Epstein + Maxwell and the Falwells have similar trajectories. From power to money to vice. When Epstein and the Falwells can have anything they want via dollars, they become predators that service their most predatory base desires, targeting and using innocent young people. Manipulating, violating, degrading, controlling. The predators supposedly offer the young people their young people dreams while they as predators entrap the young people in their predatory nightmares.
Bill Cosby also offered to help aspiring young women and girls, leading to entrapment, violation, and degradation.
Mothers – stop your boys (as well as girls) going to such churches and it’s your duty to turn your sons against any father that endorses that mindset.
Following the lessening of prayer by the RCC in the 1940s and the C of E in the 1960s, JP II turned us into cattle. I’ve resumed remembering what that did to my state of mind (following the attack on us by our schoolteachers).
Religions should stay the ____ out of our sex lives. Edgar Hoover told Carl Henry that was how they will have political power over us (see Prof Lerone Martin’s outstanding book The gospel of J Edgar Hoover).
When did any theodudebros do any supplicating? Don Carson (TGC boss) who wrote a book apparently against superapostles, has shown himself up for what he really is.
Anthony Bradley quote: The profit-marketing-platform tail now wags the theological dog.
For providence’ sake renewing of your mind and having the spirit of a sound mind means ditching the thinking framework of designer outlet religion and seeking out honest logic and ALL (not just some) of the meanings of Holy Scripture.
elastigirl,
Oh, I don’t know. Maybe she threw up first and then cried. That would be one normal response for a woman whose experiences include having to pretend a man is doing her a salvific service by using her to satisfy his urge to ejaculate.
I am light years away from being a complimentarian or even a Christian, but even I was thinking that you would think it should work the way you describe.
And my next thought was that I honestly am not surprised these churches rake in the dosh if people are fool enough to be taken in by that letter. Even beginning with the words ‘I love you’ is a massive red flag that readers are being manipulated.
Words fail me.
Is this a “South Park” episode?
But why are we not surprised? These idiots adore the old testament.
You know that holy scripture chock full of kings n concubines, offering your daughters up to save angels from being….well the names in the town.
Drunken naked patriarchs, slave girl a go go.
Next they’ll be at the zoo trying to get the wombats to talk. Tell me, Clarice? Can you hear the marsupials screaming?
“Sunday School”…. “Coming” to a cathouse near you…
Glad I’m done with it.
The Scriptures do use marriage as a metaphor, for YHWH and Israel in the OT and for Christ and the Church in the NT. But the imagery is relatively muted.
Perhaps this episode is an illustration of the wisdom of Paul’s counsel in 1 Cor 4 to “not go beyond what is written.”
The metaphor is about commitment and devotion in a shared mutual collaborative noble respectful relationship of integrity and free will, no entrapment strings attached.
It is never about a man (think Epstein) or a woman (Becky Falwell) living a life of vice between their legs. Vice, evil, base desires, feral, manipulation, entrapment, violation, degradation.
The entrapment and degrading of another human being to serve base desires has nothing to do with the devotion of two people in a mutually respectful committed relationship.
A hammer that builds a safe and comfortable family home (marriage of collaborative integrity) has nothing to do with a hammer that bashes in someone’s skull while obliterating their agency (entrapment, violation, degradation). Let’s not confuse the two. No bait and switch.
That letter was codswallop! So many words, signifying nothing.
Somewhere along the way, it appears that Christ fell out of favor in the 21st century version of Christianity. He is now little more than a beloved symbol. The authority of Jesus is waning. The Great God Theology now sits on the throne in many “gospel” churches.
How long do we have to wait before the physical union passes from sanctifying to sacramental, and those leaders who espouse such doctrine begin to advocate the use of “temple (gospel?) prostitutes”?
Todd Wilhelm,
Todd,
I’m a lifelong Californian and I’ve always been told how weird we are. But, AZ seems off, too. I have a relative in the southwest corner who lives in a county with the highest number of independent militia members in the nation, people of color are not welcome, and there was a place called MAGA pizza. I just wanted to come home.
Daisy,
Totally agree, Daisy. If we don’t have a compelling place in our theology for celibate singles, our theology is seriously off.
Btw, I loved The Sexual Reformation: Restoring the Dignity & Personhood of Man & Woman by Aimee Byrd. Sex isn’t an icon of salvation; men & women are living icons – made in the very image of God.
If only Byrd’s book had gotten a fraction of the attention Butler’s book has gotten!
But why should they? If the church is in disarray over his book, and he keeps talking, maybe it’s time to cut the cord. Isn’t that what elders need to do sometimes.? He is still a member of that church.
I walked all around Sedona and did not find the vortex. Pretty rocks, though, and one gorgeous RCC church built into the rocks.
I didn’t think it was possible to be that absurd, but I guess it is.
These guys have lost any claim to sane moorings
Ava–spot on posts!
I wonder what look will be on the faces of the theodudes who worship sex when and if they are admitted to heaven, and find out “They neither marry nor are given in marriage” there. Can you just see the shock and horror on those faces?
CynthiaW.,
“I finished these pages in tears”–Jen Pollock Michel
“Maybe she threw up first and then cried.”
++++++++++++++++++++
well, if she didn’t plenty of others did.
the others… who bear the brunt of people like Jen Pollock Michel, JB, and the other dizzy folks signing on with TGC to exploit God and Jesus to make a name for themselves & turn a good dollar.
just so sick of it all.
This made me laugh so loud that I startled Tulip.
Muff Potter,
oh,i’m already imagining how jb will seek to extend his publishing contract further and further by extending these metaphors further and further beyond ad absurdum.
…some drug-free psychedelic place where the hallucinations aren’t even interesting but as stupid as rocks.
elastigirl,
I am sick of it as well. She has gotten lots of looks due to being Chandler’s gal pal. And she lives very, very well, from what locals have told me.
I dunno, Dee. Given all of the scandals that have come to light in the past few years, temple prostitutes might just suit some of these “Christian” leaders to a tee.
Spot on. Reading the quotes from Butlers book made me feel like I’d crawled through a pile of slimy filth in the garbage dump. Nothing beautiful about it; merely ill disguised porn.
Beautiful is a word I reserve for those who engage the homeless, comfort grieving families of actual martyrs ( I know 14 such families personally). Or care for the mentally ill or aged who can not care for themselves. These actions are noble, beautiful and sacrificial. I assume Butler does not write about these because such a book wouldn’t make him money. Lasting joy however comes from such interactions.
If they worship sex, why would they be admitted to heaven?
Well, actually, the orgy will be happening in the other place. Theodudes + their galpals can continue their preferred lifestyle there, the Other Place, where there are no healthy relationships, no human dignity, no nobility, no integrity, no respect, no Jesus and His disciples, no God our Father, no Holy Spirit with fruit and gifts. Good grief, this is what they are opting for now, so they should be happy there in the Other Place with their colleagues. They will all find each other.
1. From the letter, “I’ve loved leading…” translates “I love spilling my hyper spiritualized theological opinions to an audience that loves hearing my spills”
2. On his web site, he also sells a study guide for “yourselves and group”. For “GROUP”, …. I have no words for it.
Sowre-Sweet Dayes,
“On his web site, he also sells a study guide for “yourselves and group”. For “GROUP”, …. I have no words for it.”
+++++++++++++++++++
maybe nowz a bad time to give church another try….
LOL. I like it.
Theo-dudes have their followers, their groupies, their molls. This is present day. It’s inappropriate, it’s misguided, it’s spiritual abuse, it’s discipleship with benefits, it’s even illegal in some States. However, there are women volunteers who desire to be chosen, to be special, to provide the benefits. If the theo-dude travels, he may have a follower providing benefits in every venue. Kept women? Or, just available for her special duties meeting the “essential needs” of the theo-dude man of god who has such a tough challenging life being a charmer and passing the collection plate wherever he goes. All for the kingdom, but never for King Jesus.
We’ve heard Christian leaders preach about how the women of the New Testament met the needs of Jesus and his disciples throughout the Gospels, Acts, and so forth. They don’t quite specify, but in action, this extends to intimacy needs. Discipleship with benefits.
Faithful followers of Jesus women are called upon to meet those essential man-of-god needs. Maybe it starts with or it’s called a massage ‘cuz the man of god has back issues and the man of god needs relief. RZ and Epstein were fronted with the backpain-massage narrative.
Hybels, poor guy, suffered in his marriage and needed extracurricular relief so he could go on to do his important work of leading the church. How many preacher boys go off the rails cheating on their wives since wifey back home just doesn’t do it for him – and he’s got to have it good if he’s gonna stand up there on stage with his booming mic, the only voice in the room, charming the socks off everyone as he collects the voiceless wage-earners’ paychecks to build his empire back home. This appears periodically in our town when the covert liaison is outed.
The woman finds fulfillment in serving God, or is it in serving the man-of-god as he does his stage show and builds his empire. He serves the church; molls serve him with discipleship benefits. A life of service. For the Gospel. Not.
Jesus and His disciples had no molls. They had mature relationships with fellow disciples of Jesus, both male and female, filled with and gifted by the Holy Spirit.
Personally, the only discipleship benefits I want are the ones provided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit vacates anything less than a life of humble holiness that denies the lusts of the flesh:
“Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.”
– from Galatians 5, World English Bible, Public Domain.
Despite Rome and Roman colonial cities like Corinth being filled with extremely explicit statuary etc., it was unseemly, especially for Jews, to be overly descriptive about the details of sex in public discourse.
As a culture, we no longer have any sense of “seemly”, and for many years have sacrificed the beauty of sex on the altar of commerce. It appears that people like Butler and those who agree with him are trying to be “winsome” and “relevant” by linking the excitement of the sex act with Jesus in such a way as to attempt to sell Christianity to the surrounding culture. In this, there is essentially no difference between what they preach and the use of implied sex in advertising to market a product. As others have pointed out above, this simply demonstrates the captivity of Christianity by the culture in the idolatry of sex (never mind, for the moment, the aspect of idolatry of marriage family).
Again, this leaves out single people, especially those who are trying to live celibately (God bless and help them!!!), widows and widowers, and those who are married and still deeply love one another but through circumstances can’t or don’t want to have sex. There is no place for any of these people in this depiction of Christ and the Church – which is about the whole concept of union – which was ultimately defined by Paul and the rest of the early Church as being effected in Baptism into the death of Christ – of which the sex act was never a part. Baptism was rather seen as a birth – the ultimate fruit of the union not of males and females but of Divinity and Humanity in and through Christ.
It’s a shame that these folks bring down to an advertising ploy such an exalted understanding of what human beings are meant to be.
D.
I recall reading about a popular Victorian book that was supposed to prepare young men for marriage. It had an extended metaphor about a woman’s body as a cathedral, with portals to be approached with reverence.
To which one Victorian bride said, “I am not a building.”
dainca,
Thanks so much for your insightful comment, Dainca.
Capitalism and sales to make money from a so-called titillating Gospel have nothing to do with Jesus and His Good News. The Gospel Sex Coalition is cheap, shallow, and offensive, not only to singles, but to all who desire mature relationships.
Thank you.
I’ve long thought that church discourse on marriage would be more persuasive and attractive if it primarily emphasized Paul’s call to the more powerful (in his context, typically husbands) to spend themselves in the interests of the less powerful (in his context, typically wives and, of course, children). The intent, I think, is that families and indeed societies would be ‘inverted hierarchies of self-giving love’, instead of the ‘hierarchies of control’ that we actually see most of the time.
Patience, I counsel myself. Maybe next year in Jerusalem.
I love Sedona, just love it. When I was in Tokyo in November, I stayed at a guest house and the manager was thrilled I was from Arizona and had been to Sedona because that is a bucket list item for her. Seriously, my first view of Sedona something like 25 plus years ago sticks in my mind. Driving north on Highway 89A, through hilly, scrubby country, then going around a curve and THOSE RED ROCKS. Definitely worth a side trip if you’re in Arizona and visiting the Grand Canyon!
Excellent summary.
I’ve heard good things about that book, I’d like to read it eventually.
There’s really no space in the Baptist faith tradition, evangelicalism or Protestant Christianity for single celibates and not really for widowers, the divorced, etc.
The expectation is that everyone will or should be married with children, but marriage does not happen for everyone, not even for those of us, like myself, who had hoped and expected to marry.
I’ve been pointing all that out for eons now, even on this blog when I joined here several years ago.
Many Christians are so consumed with marriage, parenthood, and the nuclear family, they end up making anyone who is not married or has no children feel overlooked.
Some Christians (such as Al Mohler) actively insult single adults for being single.
Christian gender complementarianism is largely meaningless to any woman, unless the woman is married with children.
I’ve noticed if you visit any Christian or denomination site that pushes complementarianism, for every article they have about singlehood and/or celibacy, there are a billion for marriage and motherhood.
Complementarians have nothing to say for or about single, celibate, childless or childfree women (nor for divorced or widowed ladies).
The majority of the Complementarian cause is finding rationalizations that sound biblical to keep males at the top of their hierarchy, so the only true ‘roles’ they give to women are “wife” and “mother.”
Most of the Complementarian articles (for or about women) are about marriage and motherhood, and the occasional “women shouldn’t be preachers!” type twaddle.
If you follow surveys, polls, and studies, more Americans are staying single now, either by choice or circumstance.
Instead of meeting single adults where we are, the majority of Christians choose to shame or scold singles for being single and fear monger us into getting married*
-which won’t attract more single adults to the Christian faith or into attending church weekly, and we’re getting to a point where there are, or shortly will be, more single adults than married-with-kids married couples.
*(which ignores the women who’d LIKE to be married but who cannot find the right guy)
Regarding the following, to quote the Mandalorian (from the Star Wars show “The Mandalorian”):
“This is the way.”
American Christianity needs to take a cue from the CoE on this matter:
Jesus Was Single and Single People Should Be Valued, Says Church of England
C of E report says church should not regard singleness as lesser than living in couple or family
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/26/jesus-was-single-single-people-should-be-valued-church-of-england
…The church should “not regard (singleness) as lesser than living in a couple relationship”, the report said, pointing out that Jesus was single.
…The report acknowledged the “growing number of people who do not live in a couple relationship or with family members”.
…The report said: “Singleness can be a deliberate choice – sometimes the right partner has not been found, and sometimes separation, divorce or death has resulted in the loss of a partner.
…“The Commission believes strongly that single people must be valued at the heart of our society. Jesus’ own singleness should ensure that the C of E celebrates singleness and does not regard it as lesser than living in a couple relationship. Loving relationships and being able to give and receive love matter to everyone.”
…While most of the children, young people and adults the commissioners spoke to defined family as close relatives, “many also described friends, work colleagues, neighbours and members of faith communities as being ‘like family’…
The Pope is single and he seems to be doing OK. On mission.
King Charles took an oath today that the Church of England will always be Protestant, or something like that.
Scrolling through the comments…I am a single, mid-sixties, totally unattached woman who has been busy in churches in my 50 years if faith. My theological background tends toward complementarian, so that may make it easier for me. However, I look for churches where single women are valued and where I can use the gifts/skills God has given me. My current church keeps me busy with teaching and cross-cultural ministry. My answer when people ask me about my singleness is 1 Corinthians 7.
Most of my experiences at this church have been very positive. Forty years of teaching gives me a lot of credibility with parents and I’m fluent in Spanish so I translate sermons a few times a year and direct our ESL class. It does help that my church is not radically reformed by theodudes, but by a mix of leadership with different points of view.
Linn,
This is wonderful. Thanks for sharing where relationships work well in the Body of Christ and people value people (including a single mature woman), their gifts and giving. Very encouraging. God bless.
Ava Aaronson,
I think there are more of us out there than people realize. Many of us appear to be former missionaries and I think we’re hard to boss around!
I agree – more people than we realize. Sometimes, it’s get busy and do the job without fanfare – wherever possible. “Hard to boss around” is the way to be, while true to the Holy Spirit, following Jesus, with humility and holiness. This gives me joy. Thanks for your encouragement.
Just plain sick and unnecessary.
Well said. Thank you.
. . . the concept is probably such a completely foreign concept to him that he can’t even concieve (wink) of such an idea.
dee,
That’s because you were prayer walking too hard.
Since my teens I only find women who are wondering whether I am wondering how quick I should get into _ with them.
This started in England when instead of praying, major church leaders cosied up to Savile and gang. I was there in my classroom.
Elizabeth Klein,
Michael in UK,
Nancy and Elastigirl, you have included the word “most” or “typical”, nominally good move. Almost all the married men I’ve met in 35 years (admittedly most in churches) are weird.
This topic always brings out (or barely misses) crazy dynamics among commenters. My elder acquaintance and his wife have three intuitive sons. I daren’t watch.
Singles aren’t “celibate”, except in the rare case it is a policy (see my 2.54 a.m). In French and German they only have the one word for both. We have separate words.
Ava Aaronson,
Juxtaposition but in separate paragraphs signals irony right? There’s often an outbreak of ignorance around this blog but I place irony highly. My friend’s friend, who wasn’t married, was induced.
I .
Elizabeth Klein,
While on the subject of recommendable books:
The strong sensitive boy: Help your son become a happy confident man
By Ted Zeff Ph D
2010
ISBN 0 9660745 2 9
(For the dense: sensitive = good already)
II .
Btw I think it’s time all of you decided to stop giving Muslin a hard time. It doesn’t just hurt her if that’s all you were aiming at.
No-one ever reacts when I mention Falwell Senior (who was big over here). Why not?
For bad measure the Heideggerist Sproul Senior hated Immanuel Kant, one of the biggest sticklers for justice and honesty, because Kant wasn’t a theocrat / dominionist.
Indeed. The dudebros can have a dirty dialogue with each other all they want to at the coffee shop, but don’t drag their trash talk into the pulpit.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
You live in a beautiful part of the country. I am pushing Bill to come back this year for a conference. I would enjoy spending some time with you.
Michael in UK,
So, I should have sat on a rock and communed with the vortex? How does one talk to a vortex? LOL
Many of whom have unrealistic expectations of what the ‘ideal’ partner should be.
dee,
if there are any conferences near where I am, i’ll take you out for great food and beautiful locales.
I’m exceedingly glad that our Founders took steps to ensure that we’d never have a ‘national church’.
Michael in UK,
“Almost all the married men I’ve met in 35 years (admittedly most in churches) are weird.”
++++++++++++++++++
well, religious culture makes people weird —
neurotic-like worried and neurotic-like overcareful about things that people outside of such subcultures simply take in stride with relative ease.
and since people outside religious subcultures are not so worked up / wound up / wired so darn tight about so many things, they perceive and assess more clearly and quickly. and perform better.
i see it in christian and muslim people i know.
the pressure each of these religions puts on men in so many categories of life is especially onerous.
it’s quite a thing to behold.
here are all these faith practitioners who believe they have secret special knowledge that puts them in an elite category of human being, living in enlightened ways that all the goblins in the evil worldly world should aspire to.
and they’re more stressed & perform poorly & less effectively than all the poor goblins they look down on and/or feel sorry for.
Not where I’m at.
It’s a small Lutheran (ELCA) congregation, old folks (like myself), young couples with kids…(diverse spectrum)
We follow along with the Liturgy, sing a hymn or two, listen to a tame homily, take Communion, and that’s it.
No weirdness, no alpha-male strong-man in the pulpit (we have a lady pastor), coffee and donuts afterwards with great people.
I’m happy as a clam there.
Muff Potter,
More of this, please.
Thx for sharing Good News.
When they do, it’s time to vacate the seats.
From the Berkshire Hathaway Annual Shareholders Meeting yesterday, May 6th, with Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger talking together, no monologue:
“The toxic people, who are trying to fool you or lie to you, who aren’t reliable in meeting their commitments, the great lesson of life is get them the h3ll out of your life, and do it fast. Do it fast.” – Munger
“And I would add, but Charlie would agree with me, do it tactfully if possible, too. But do get them out of your life.” – Buffett
“Well, I don’t mind a little tact, or even a little financial cost. But the question is, do get them the h3ll out of your life.” – Munger
From 2 guys talking who have real jobs and careers. They have accumulated their own wealth with neither begging, nor fundraising, nor collection plates.
Buffett lives a simple lifestyle in his family home in Omaha, purchased in 1958 for 32K now worth 650K. Modest for a billionaire. Humble and unpretentious.
Muff Potter,
you’re right.
i paint it all the same color as my great gripe, but i agree – some are neutral, and some really do bring out the best in people.
so, what causes all the weirdness…. taking it too seriously?
i mean, God being God & all, we want to take God seriously.
perhaps recognizing that common sense and gut instinct are God-given, and employing them is an expression of taking God seriously?
(there’s more to sort out, here)
Wisdom … let the NeoCal dudebros see nothing but your elbows and your rear-end exiting the premises more quickly than possible.
elastigirl,
“so, what causes all the weirdness”
++++++++++
using one’s religion / faith as a vehicle to feed base intincts, needs & desires that are better off left shriveling rather than indulged?
reverse engineering theology to feed our needs/wants?
losing sight of “love your neighbor as yourself” as top priority? (which, seems to me, will never be in tension with loving God with one’s soul, strength, mind)
elastigirl,
Agree.
elastigirl,
Or, on the part of the theo dudebros:
Not taking things seriously, at all.
Using religion to feed greed…. and/or a hunger for fame and attention?
Shallow theology….refusal to dedicate the personal time and work to take a deep, lengthy dive into the Bible, history, and culture?
Loving self more than anyone or anything else, including Jesus?
I agree totally.
I’ve heard Calvary Chapel (non-calvinist) pastors say that you can’t trust your gut feelings because you’re (generic your) too tainted with a sin-nature.
An ideology which I now flatly reject.
Most dudebro pastors couldn’t swing a hammer and drive a nail if their lives depended on it! They depend on the gullible to finance them. There are the truly called who expend their lives to serve the Body of Christ, but it’s a small percentage of the 21st century pulpit, IMO.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
“Shallow theology….refusal to dedicate the personal time and work to take a deep, lengthy dive into the Bible, history, and culture”
++++++++++++++
it’s funny… you don’t know what hard work is until you have to do it because there is no other alternative.
(i look at my kids… i’ve tried to instill a good work ethic, telling them nothing comes on a silver platter, so get a job if you want something and learn how to cook if you’re hungry. but even so they don’t know hard work quite yet.)
i mean, life deals and the buck stops with you. i know how to work pretty d*mn hard & go without. but it’s all relative…
i think of a national geographic issue i have… a place in a 3rd world country, where the women walk several miles just to get water for their community.
-they carry very large orange containers on their shoulders.
-they walk to a water hole of some kind.
-they climb down inside, fill their containers, work together to lift them back up to the path,
-then carry them back several miles to their community.
ha…. and i think i know how to work hard.
they put me to shame, these heroes.)
elastigirl,
I need to come in your direction one day. When I do, you will be first on my call list.
After being here at TWW and other places, and hearing all the various convos, I’m convinced that these guys (neocals, and others) are more like adolescent boys than they are mature men.
It’s almost like a real life sci-fi flick isn’t it?
Living in the lap of luxury like we do, all the while knowing that the downtrodden hordes outside the gates can’t even get clean water.
Muff Potter,
it’s rotten. i went to india some years ago. large swathes of city made up of corrugated metal lean-to’s. well, that was the end of shopping for the sake of shopping for me.
brings to mind another national geographic issue-
a woman who lived with her family in one such lean-to. she had made it a home – colorful framed art hanging somehow, colorful small rugs, simple furniture, flowers in a vase… she kept it immaculate. laundered clothes by hand, all immaculate.
she took pride in it. as well she should. another hero to me.
humble realism is a good mindset to have.
Thank you for the link to the article, Daisy. 🙂
This is just plain nuts! Reading into the text (eisegesis) to support some pretty wacky stuff.
“I DON’T WANNA GROW UP!
I’M A NEOCAL KID!
WAAAH! WAAAH! WAAAAAAH!”
Did “our founders” ever conceive of a CHRISTIAN Supreme Court giving the One True National Church everything they want by six-to-three Decree?
AKA like thousands of liturgical church parishes across the country.
You know, Mystery Babylon Satanic Counterfeit Lukewarms (TM)?
And the WEIRDEST Unreaistic Expectations came from the women in CHRISTIAN dating services.
After flushing high three figures down the crapper on them back in the Nineties, I figured there was no chance to find Companionship there, either. There can be no Companionship with a walking Jack Chick Tract.
Why go where you’re not only NOT wanted, but actively HATED?
(Answer: Fear and Guilt Manipulation; the Threat of Eternal Hell can be quite a motivator.)
= NeoCal doctrine of “Eternal Subordination of the Son” among other wacko dogma.
“They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules” (Mark 7:7)
It’s the Christianese version of “Just Get Laid, that’ll Solve Everything” — except because it’s CHRISTIAN, Getting Laid has to include the Ring and the Ceremony first.
Sedona is the Weird Religion Capital of Arizona, just like upstate New York some 200 years ago and Mount Shasta around 100 years ago.
Their “sermons” are mostly canned stuff. I’ve heard some that parrot Piper and other NeoCal icons. They preach the party-line.
Great way to put every attempt by man to put God in a box. New Calvinism pops to mind as the latest kid on that block. Designer theology … artificially created and modified Scripture to fit in the box.
“To whom much is given, much will be required” (Luke 2:48)
“He who shuts his ear to the poor man’s cry shall himself plead and not be heard” (Proverbs 21:13)
“HOW WEIRD CAN YOU GO?”
(And it isn’t even GOOD Weird!)
More like CYBERPUNK.
i.e. .00001% Infinitely Rich, 99.99999% Infinitely Poor, and everyone either living in Virtual Reality(or on Social Media) or worshipping The Algorithm! The Algorithm! The Algorithm!
Designer theology
Max,
Creating God in their image.
I had to call someone, who is the denomination head over our church, about 6 months ago. Our pastor was on a much needed sabbatical and the elders decided to send out a very heavy handed email, telling us what to do about a church situation, and reminding us that they are in charge. Denomination guy admitted on the phone that in our pastor’s absence, head elder guy copies him on all emails, but he only glances at them. So I am not surprised that people endorse books without reading them. Where are the good and godly leaders? (And Sedona is beautiful!)
Exactly … and that never ends well. Aberrant theologies and personality cults come and go, but Truth has endured the test of time. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” … “Choose Me!” shouts Jesus (if you can hear Him above the religious noise).
My English prof. from the olden times of my youth would have had a field day with her red pen.
Any authors with at all realistic expectations welcome critics – because critics mean their book is getting attention. They can converse with the critics to try to win them over. And it seems this is exactly what Butler wants to do. Kevin DeYoung OTOH, believes Butler has been persecuted. https://clearlyreformed.org/so-what-about-that-tgc-article-on-sex/
“ Six, the article was not good. The mob was worse. Butler did not deserve to be pilloried…. This ordeal quickly moved away from theological sharpening to pitchfork-toting and axe-wielding. I fear that an apology for “hurt,” without naming any identifiable sin, sends the wrong message: it canceled Butler…”
IMO it’s impossible for critics to “cancel” Butler. Only his gospelly friends like Carson Keller and Kim could do that. Did DeYoung follow Matthew 18 about their sins I wonder?
BTW, DeYoung said. “ What Butler was attempting to do was appropriate. In my estimation, however, the language he employed was not.”
I could not disagree more. The language employed naturally follows from the big picture, that, as Russell Moore put it “Marriage is an embedded icon of Christ and the Church”. Sooo we’re supposed to think about the ideal marriage and then “oooh THAT’S how much Jesus loves us and we’ve got to submit to him!” And further, we’ve got to model this to our neighbors so they think “Look how George lovingly leads Mary and she respectfully submits to him! We wanna be Christians too!”
But they have it backwards. We submit to one another following the example of Christ and the church. And for Paul this worked out in various relationships including parent/child and master/servant. No one has to be married to fully participate in this.
Max,
Let me be fair, there are Christian orgs who drill deep wells for clean water in Africa.
Orgs who place a higher priority on clean water than religious conversion.
“I don’t want to drag Redemption into that public conversation with me.”
I think “Redemption” has already decided not go there with you, Mr. Butler. Jesus has more important things to do.
Yes, we have supported one of those ministries for years.
Mount Shasta is STILL weird. There’s a whole crew of people who go there for the same reason people go to Sedona, for the vortexes. And the channeling. And the aliens.
That said, I knew someone who will tell you she got tired of selling homes to the rich and famous in West Palm Beach. She went out to Sedona and sat on Bell Rock (which is large, and you really can’t sit on top of it) and she will swear up and down the experience changed her life. She quit selling homes and instead moved on to designing amusement park rides.
Me, I just find the rocks fascinating.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
“Mount Shasta …vortexes. And the channeling. And the aliens.”
+++++++++++++
can’t leave out Sasquatch. (but nothing weird about them)
Yes. Good explanation. Thx.
Better to have drilled wells than to have Jesus say to you (generic you) on judgement day:
Depart from me, I never knew you…
I knew a guy years ago who claimed to have seen Sasquatch on a fishing trip.
And the aliens.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
https://www.history.com/news/little-green-men-origins-aliens-hopkinsville-kelly
Kelly (uhm, not even a wide spot in the road) is about a 35 minute drive for me. There’s a Kelly Little Green Men Days Festival every August……. not much to it. I go mostly for the bbq ham and the red velvet funnel cakes with cream cheese frosting. Sometimes there’s a good band – one band called “Crash Landing” did a good job on Styx “Come Sail Away“ the year before COVID hit.
I do have a couple of green men t-shirts and a pin that says: “I invaded Kelly, KY!”
Note: We locals believe there might have been some moonshine involved that night. Moonshine was a big thing around here back then.
LEMURIANS!
I loved King Julian in Madagascar….
I’m so jealous…aliens & moonshine.
Only ever seen a UFO once, no aliens though….
Sasquatch are everywhere. My optometrist saw one. It’s even reported on the BFRO website, 1999, Canadian class A sightings.
The Hopkinsville Goblins, AKA “Aliens vs Rednecks”, one of the WEIRDEST moments in Fifties UFOlogy:
Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A24YEOdnMvI
Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ71y-1AmxE
P.S. They were silver, not green.
Max,
“Supports” novel downloads only!
Most likely in the Missouri/Arkansas Ozarks … there are locals who look like that … they are harmless, unless you are in their fishing hole!
something to do with artificial intelligence most likely
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Silver, not green. Yeah, we know…… but there are always several people walking around in green alien costumes. I have heard that this “incident” is how the color ‘Kelly green’ got it’s name – not true.
HUG, I also go to the Thresher-men’s Show in Adams, TN…… Bell Witch territory. The Bell family cemetery is directly across the road from the show grounds.
Jack,
Aliens and moonshine …… start with the moonshine – it will increase your chances of seeing aliens.
But it makes for a good story.
Back in 2019, I was planning on my usual 2020 trip back east to detour into West Virginia and visit the sites of two other High Weirdnesses — Flatwoods (home of the other craziness of 1950s UFOlogy, the Flatwoods Monster) and Point Pleasant and the Mothman Museum (with the only hotel in town right across the street and haunted to boot). This got sabotaged by COVID and I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to make it back east again.
Monster Quest. History Channel.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
In the Lower Sixth we had to be disciplined for “stickers”.
History Channel = All Ancient Aliens, All The Time.
What Hath Von Daniken Wrought?