An Example of Flippant Things Christians Say When They’re Trying to Sound Spiritual for Their “Gospel” Peers.

Taken by @NASAHubble, an expanding halo of light around a distant star named V838 Monocreotis. NASA

“Words are too easy. Therefore, never speak them unless you intend to act upon whatever they’re saying.” ― Craig D. Lounsbrough.


I am willing to cut people some slack if they are…Wait a minute. Most people living in countries like the US and other “First World” countries should not need me to cut them some slack. Unless they are impoverished and cannot access the internet, there is no reason not to understand the tragedy surrounding well-known pastors, priests, and an assortment of others who have been caught in situations that would constitute sexual abuse.

“Affairs” should be consensual, but this is often not true.

Consensual sex is found between two individuals who have passed the age of consent and in which there is not an unequal power differential. If there is an unequal power differential, thoughtful people will report that relationship to Human Resources or lawyers, who can determine if there is an issue. For example, Jesse Watters on Fox News had a relationship with someone on staff. They reported it to Human Resources, which moved the woman into a different company section. I have not approved of this relationship since Watters was married. Eventually, he divorced and remarried this woman. However, they went out of their way to prevent a misunderstanding. I wrote about this in Stop Calling These Affairs Unless There Is Proof It’s Consensual. Consult Jesse Watters For Advice.

Obviously, Christian leaders know that they would be disqualified if they reported such a relationship, so they usually try to “wing it,” often with disastrous outcomes.

Sadly, some of the boys think that outright sexual abuse is a mere temptation.

Was Ravi Zacharias’ hidden life just a temptation to be overcome with optimism instead of cynicism?

The Gospel Coalition published Cynics in the Hand of a Living God: How to Shake a Cynicism Habit. This book was written by Hayden Hefner, whose last name is rather unfortunate for the topic we are about to discuss. Here is what he had to say.

Cynicism is tempting when Christians around me fall into serious sin. I still remember when I learned about Ravi Zacharias. My stomach sank. I remember thinking, If Ravi couldn’t stand against the Tempter’s arrows, how can I?

By God’s grace, I haven’t engaged in any disqualifying sin. But I thought, How can I be sure I won’t disqualify myself in the future? Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it in my bones.

…as I looked around at the myriad failures of other Christian leaders and considered the wander-proneness of my own heart, I was tempted to despair.

Antonyms for cynicism are optimism and cheerfulness.

Christian hope is believing that, regardless of the apparent odds, God will keep those who hide under his wings and cry out, “My refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust” (v. 2). It’s believing the resurrected dead will live forever.

What Hefner didn’t see is that Zacharias was not just a roving philanderer; he was an abuser. Here is what I said about this on Twitter.


RZ did not have consensual sexual relationships. He was a serial sexual abuser.

Ravi Zacharias was a prolific sexual abuser of women. Zacharias was not afflicted with mere temptation. He was an abuser who, as he lay dying of cancer, kept photos of hundreds of women in his phone. Here is one post on RZ. Ravi Zacharias’ sins of sexual abuse went undetected for years. Here are the lessons the Church needs to learn.

In September 2020, three women came forward accusing the leader of sexual misconduct. All worked in spas frequented by Zacharias – for the supposed purpose of relieving his chronic back pain. Over a period of five years, they said he had groped them, exposed himself and masturbated during regular treatments.

The posthumous report commissioned by RZIM confirmed “significant evidence of sexual misconduct” over many years and in multiple contexts, as well as “text- and email-based relationships with women who were not his wife”.

Christianity Today wrote Ravi Zacharias Hid Hundreds of Pictures of Women, Abuse During Massages, and a Rape Allegation. 

Even a limited review of Zacharias’s old devices revealed contacts for more than 200 massage therapists in the US and Asia and hundreds of images of young women, including some that showed the women naked. Zacharias solicited and received photos until a few months before his death in May 2020 at age 74.

Zacharias used tens of thousands of dollars of ministry funds dedicated to a “humanitarian effort” to pay four massage therapists, providing them housing, schooling, and monthly support for extended periods of time, according to investigators.

…One woman told the investigators that “after he arranged for the ministry to provide her with financial support, he required sex from her.” She called it rape.

She said Zacharias “made her pray with him to thank God for the ‘opportunity’ they both received” and, as with other victims, “called her his ‘reward’ for living a life of service to God,” the report says. Zacharias warned the woman—a fellow believer—if she ever spoke out against him, she would be responsible for millions of souls lost when his reputation was damaged.

While the report did not interview sources abroad, investigators uncovered evidence that Zacharias routinely met massage therapists when he traveled

…In Bangkok, he owned two apartments in the early 2010s, sharing a building with one of his massage therapists, the investigators found. The notes app on his phone included Thai and Mandarin translations of phrases like “I’d like to have a beautiful memory with you,” “little bit further,” and “your lips are especially beautiful.”

There is more, much more. There are even accusations surrounding possible human trafficking. However, he died too quickly for this to be investigated.

RZ is a man who hid a prolific deviant lifestyle that involved the abuse of an untold number of women.

This is not a typical “temptation” that can “come on at the drop of a hat” due to a simple temptation. This is about a man who used his so-called Christian lifestyle and widespread admiration in Christian circles to hide his abusive lifestyle. I wonder how many more are like him? He was a deviant with an apparent profound psychiatric disorder. His aberrations led him to harm untold numbers of women. Some of these women lived in Thailand and were particularly vulnerable and possibly impoverished.

This was not just a simple temptation.

My stomach sank. I remember thinking, If Ravi couldn’t stand against the Tempter’s arrows, how can I?

Unfortunately, this statement demonstrates one more Christianese practitioner who didn’t take the time to learn about his “hero.” On the off chance that Mr. Hefner feels “tempted” by the lifestyle of RZ, he needs to stop what he is doing and go to a psychiatrist who is versed in caring for those who think they could be tempted to become sexual abusers.

PS Don’t the editors of The Gospel Coalition know the difference between typical temptation involving consensual behavior and the temptation to become a sexual abuser of many, many women?

Comments

An Example of Flippant Things Christians Say When They’re Trying to Sound Spiritual for Their “Gospel” Peers. — 71 Comments

  1. Good post. Sin-leveling helps no one. Yes, all sins are abhorrent to a holy God, which is why He needed to send Jesus. But all sins are decidedly not the same and do no have the same impact.

  2. My stomach sank. I remember thinking, If Ravi couldn’t stand against the Tempter’s arrows, how can I? ~ Hefner

    As I read that, I thought, What an idiot. Ha! There but by the grace of God go I?????
    My, oh my! I wonder how many other shady crimes this poor soul is tempted to commit? Embezzlement, bribery, blackmail……”

    PS Don’t the editors of The Gospel Coalition know the difference between typical temptation involving consensual behavior and the temptation to become a sexual abuser of many, many women? ~ Dee

    I honestly don’t believe they care, unless of course, the abuse directly involves their wives and/or daughters.

  3. Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it in my bones.

    …as I looked around at the myriad failures of other Christian leaders and considered the wander-proneness of my own heart, I was tempted to despair.

    His wife will find this information quite reassuring.

    Staying faithful can be quite easy for most people, it’s not some giant effort, it’s one small decision after another.

    For those affected by “total depravity”, however, …

  4. I think that rather than being tempted by RZ’s lifestyle, normal human empathy would cause most people to recoil in dismay — whatever “benefits” one might receive from living that way would be outweighed by the burden on one’s conscience of the harms one was inflicting on others. Doubtless there are some, people who are willing to pursue their own pleasure at the cost of others’ suffering, who find it appealing; these are IMO scary and dangerous people, and it is important to identify and avoid people like this within one’s own social circle.

    While I think that there is some validity to the idea that “power is corrupting” — perhaps the experience of control over others erodes conscience and empathy — I also think that among people who desire power but have not yet attained it, there are many whose reasons for desiring it are not public-spirited. Martha Stout, in her The Sociopath Next Door has written that people with subnormal conscience and empathy tend to desire power over others, and that the upper reaches of power hierarchies have a greater proportion of people with subnormal conscience and empathy than are in the general population.

    I think there is warrant to regard the powerful with a default posture of “verify before trusting.” And there is warrant to regard with a measure of skepticism one’s own desire for power, if one does desire that; the subjective reasons may seem virtuous at the outset, but perhaps the end toward which one is heading is a terrible one.

  5. IMO, TGC makes resources available like this because they know there is a great number of young reformed pastors in their ranks who “struggle” with temptation and sin. They would do well to read the words in red rather than books like this. Of course, the NeoCals prefer twisted versions of Paul’s epistles rather than the Gospels.

    Men who are “Prone to wander” don’t need to be in the ministry! Hybels was prone to wander, Bickle was prone to wander, Tullian was prone to wander, hundreds of SBC pastors reported by the Houston Chronicle are/were prone to wander, etc. etc. Good Lord, at the rate these reports hit the news, one would think the better part of the American pulpit is out there wandering where they shouldn’t!

  6. Was Ravi Zacharias’ hidden life just a temptation to be overcome with optimism instead of cynicism?

    “HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
    HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
    HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
    HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
    HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
    HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
    HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! JOY!!!!!!!”
    — Ren & Stimpy

  7. Max: there is a great number of young reformed pastors in their ranks who “struggle” with temptation and sin. They would do well to read the words in red rather than books like this.

    But they already have the Words of CALVIN —
    Who needs “Christ” when you have CALVIN?
    CALVIN who alone Has God All Figured Out!

  8. Dee asks, “Don’t the editors of The Gospel Coalition know the difference between typical temptation involving consensual behavior and the temptation to become a sexual abuser of many, many women?”

    The obvious answer? No, they do not.

  9. “The Gospel Coalition published Cynics in the Hand of a Living God: How to Shake a Cynicism Habit.”
    +++++++++++++

    well, i got that far.

    cynical is really just being realistic and practical. and perhaps direct/blunt in speech.

    i don’t see the problem.

    unless it is now a sin to be from a region where these communication styles are normal and typical.

  10. “Antonyms for cynicism are optimism and cheerfulness.”
    +++++++++++

    got a little further.

    ‘cheerful’….

    my aunt from brooklyn’s sincere cheerful feeling and disposition would measure as ‘harsh’ on what i imagine the memphis ‘cheerfulness’ scale to be.

    (just thinking back to when I watched John Grisham’s “The Firm”)

    my son sees the glass as half empty. (i see it as half full) he’s the more realistic one between the 2 of us.

    he has a wisdom component that i might be slower at perceiving.

    thank God for how he’s wired.

    how ridiculous to spiritualize these things with the inherent message that these things are sin issues that God frowns on.

  11. Sin-leveling can sound absurd, but what if it has a practical function? When pastors, teachers, or other prominent Christians are caught in a pattern of abusive behavior, the whole system in which they operate is implicated. But a lot of other people are deeply invested in that system. The “there but for the grace of god go I” pious nonsense protects the abusive system from scrutiny. It keeps the focus on the supposed generalized, incurable human depravity rather than the system’s potentially fixable power dynamics.

  12. “…prone to wander, Lord…”

    First off, Hayden, you don’t have to tell Him, He already knows you are, and no one else is impressed with your fake humility.
    Second, since you are prone to wander, you shouldn’t be writing Christian books.
    Third, your wife should insist on full lab reports before any further intimacy with you…you know, because of your wander-prone ways.

    A search of this guys internet browsing history would reveal some interesting things.

    Just ick. My mostly-atheist boyfriend isn’t prone to wander. What’s wrong with you, Hayden?

  13. CMT: It keeps the focus on the supposed generalized, incurable human depravity rather than the system’s potentially fixable power dynamics.

    This.

  14. elastigirl: unless it is now a sin to be from a region where these communication styles are normal and typical.

    No but it’s convenient for it to be a “sin” to “cynically” question the evangelical industrial complex that enables and profits from abusive teachers…

  15. CMT,

    “No but it’s convenient for it to be a “sin” to “cynically” question the evangelical industrial complex that enables and profits from abusive teachers…”
    ++++++++++++

    indeed.

    this was decided either in a shadowy conference room, or in the shadowy recesses of the mind(s) of those on a power conquest. whether articulated to themselves & others, or not.

    those trying to build their brand & writing career (& curry favor with TGC) are following the model,

    minus the critical thinking bit.

    (which would have alerted them to the control freakery, and other nonsense that serves to fill up a book)

  16. elastigirl: (which would have alerted them to the control freakery, and other nonsense that serves to fill up a book)

    It’s no wonder really, when God himself is characterized (in some circles of fundagelicalism) as the ultimate control freak.

  17. Ariel: Hayden … since you are prone to wander, you shouldn’t be writing Christian books

    And all Christendom shouted AMEN!! (or should have)

  18. “An Example of Flippant Things Christians Say When They’re Trying to Sound Spiritual for Their “Gospel” Peers”

    To my knowledge, no one has accused the NeoCal tribe as being spiritual. The “Gospel” peers cling to another gospel, which is not ‘the’ Gospel … anything goes with this bunch.

  19. Gus:

    For those affected by “total depravity”, however, …

    LOL. I sure am glad I didn’t have a mouth full of drink when I read that!

  20. Gus: For those affected by “total depravity”, however, …

    I have known New Calvinists who use this as a crutch to act totally depraved … “I can’t help myself; I suffer from total depravity after all.” Total depravity actually means total inability for these characters.

  21. This site has been very important to me for a very long time as hidden sins of abuse have become publicly known. Uncovered. They are not secret any more. Removal from positions has occurred. I have rejoiced. And, I am very grateful to Wartburg Watch’s well-researched posts.

    I knew one abuser personally. My pain has included Dr. Donn Ketcham, who, while serving with The Association of Baptists for World Evangelism in Bangledesh, sexually abused, for years, both adults and children while on the mission field. And, Liberty University’s Jerry Fallwell, Jr.. And, the failure of Bob Jones University to report. And Hephzibah House. Doug Phillips. Bill Gothard. Jack Hyles and Jack Schapp. Then there is my Cedarville University with its ongoing issues. All now exposed. Many fundamental Baptists.

    What I do not understand is the blanket dislike of some at The Wartburg Watch of The Gospel Coalition. I have personally known two Council Members for many years. Both are honorable, intelligent, learned, wise, respected, trusted. Why the blanket dislike here?

    Thank you for reading.

  22. jojo,

    “What I do not understand is the blanket dislike of some at The Wartburg Watch of The Gospel Coalition.”
    ++++++++++++

    hard to collect my thoughts at the moment (i’m studying for a test)

    but here goes:

    it’s full of both self-important people and wannabe’s trying to make a name for themselves,

    all building their brand by finding new & novel ways to

    *nitpick, find fault with & criticize everyone and everything not in the charmed circle

    *invent sins which they alone have the answer to fix, to highlight how enlightened & clever they are

    (when all it amounts to is a spiritualized version of Father Sarducci’s Mr. Tea)

    (a coffee maker with no coffee filter, no coffee grounds, no coffee pot, but a teacup with a teabag in it in its place = a ridiculous non-solution to a non-problem)

    but amazingly enough, people take them seriously, and start worrying about these non-sins and non-problems.
    .
    .
    TGC preys on christians’ fears, worries, hopes and dreams

    with stupid nonsense

    and by creating common enemies to all rally against,

    and in-groups to feel a part of, and out-groups to look down on,

    …exploiting human beings, all to build their careers and in a quest for power

  23. Riffing a bit along the lines of CMT’s thoughts about self-interested defense of power structures, I wonder whether some of the “there but for the grace of God go I” rhetoric might be a kind of defense mechanism to conceal the degree to which Evangelical thought leaders are, just like the clueless masses in the pews, taken in by modern-day equivalents of what Paul called “superapostles.” They seem to have little discernment.

    Further, to acknowledge that profoundly bad people can rise undetected to the top of the Evangelical movement raises the question of “how do we know that any specific Evangelical leader, for example HH, is not doing depraved things?” “There but for the grace of God go I” signals that “I haven’t gone there (yet)”. I think it also signals that “people who have stumbled as badly as RZ were not bad at the outset; they arrived in a bad place by degrees, so don’t regard with suspicion anyone whose transgressions have not yet been made public. Extend the judgement of charity.”

    This rhetoric protects powerful individuals as well as power structures.

  24. jojo: The Gospel Coalition … Why the blanket dislike here?

    While I echo Elastigirl’s response, the root cause of my concern is that first, and foremost, TGC is a Calvinist Coalition not a Gospel Coalition. Their primary mission is to promote reformed theology by indoctrinating and encouraging a young army of New Calvinists to accomplish their goal, as they take over unsuspecting traditional (non-Calvinist) churches by stealth and deception. Much has been written on TWW and elsewhere about the modus operandi of the new reformers. It is a form of spiritual abuse of God’s people that fits well with the overall objective of TWW to inform and warn the Church of wayward ministers and ministries.

  25. Max,

    This seems to be equivalent to an argument that God has given the person “faith”, but for reasons known only to Him, He has declined to produce in that person the spiritual fruit “self-control.”

    The Holy Spirit may be “with” someone like that, but I highly doubt that the Spirit in “in” that person.

  26. jojo: What I do not understand is the blanket dislike of some at The Wartburg Watch of The Gospel Coalition. I have personally known two Council Members for many ye

    Many are not; CJ Mahaney and Mark Driscoll were members for years. CJ is still respected by some. My former pastor, David Horner, was a founding member, and I’ve written enough about my story. Joe Carter accused me of libel in print, sticking up for his good friend, CJ Mahaney, and he has never apologized.
    TGC has a unique way of dealing with fallen or embarrassing members. They disappear, and no word is spoken. We have commented on this over the years and documented a number of names.

    I’m glad your friends are honorable. I wish they would employ that characteristic in the running of their organization.

    Ask what the many members of TGC supported Mahaney, wrote and publishined letters of support yet have never apologized for misleading people or for calling out those of us who spoke out about that situation.

    I am not impressed with TGC and this post is another reason why.

  27. Samuel Conner: I think there is warrant to regard the powerful with a default posture of “verify before trusting.”

    The thought occurs that ” ‘cynicism’ is an optimist’s term for a pessimist’s realism.”

    Levity aside, I do think that cynicism is problematic, but the alterative to it is not ingenuous credulity and unconditional trust.

    Perhaps a fruitful alternative would be what in other contexts has been called “epistemic humility.” One doesn’t know whether any specific new acquaintance is trustworthy. A cynical assumption that a person whom one does not know well is untrustworthy is arguably unfair to the other, but it is also arguably dangerous to assume, without good warrant, that the person is trustworthy. Hence, “verify before trusting.”

    In times past, ministerial and other religious vocations came with the presumption of good character and trustworthiness, and I hope that was justified. It appears that the profession has not done a good job of ‘policing’ itself (and, as far as I can tell, there are not strong structural mechanisms which could undertake such policing) and the pendulum is swinging, to the apparent chagrin of stakeholders in the system, away from presumptive trustworthiness. This is unfair to the many (I would think almost assuredly the great majority) of workers in the field who indeed are people of good character, but the bad actors are the ones who, when discovered, dominate the news. I would think that it is in the interest of the majority to devise ways of policing themselves.

    Can one envision changes that would make religious vocations more amenable to early discovery of the “leaven” of people of bad character?

  28. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): My, oh my! I wonder how many other shady crimes this poor soul is tempted to commit? Embezzlement, bribery, blackmail……”

    He’s CHRISTIAN.
    Only the Pelvic Issues count as crimes, and only if he gets caught.

  29. Gus: Staying faithful can be quite easy for most people, it’s not some giant effort, it’s one small decision after another.

    For those affected by “total depravity”, however, …

    Don’t forget the bragging rights of “More Utterly Depraved than Thou”.

  30. CMT: The “there but for the grace of god go I” pious nonsense protects the abusive system from scrutiny. It keeps the focus on the supposed generalized, incurable human depravity rather than the system’s potentially fixable power dynamics

    FEATURE, NOT BUG.

  31. “I remember thinking, If Ravi couldn’t stand against the Tempter’s arrows, how can I?”

    Well, off the top of my head:

    * Identification/healing of past hurts/traumas and unmet needs that could lead to poor choices
    * Personal growth with a focus on humility, healthy boundaries, and willingness to accept feedback (may involve work with a qualified/licensed therapist)
    * Development of strong, healthy relationships with others
    * Accountability within a Christian community that values integrity and honesty and is willing to confront the “bad behavior” of its members instead of engaging in cover ups

    I’m sure there’s more to add, but this would be a good start.

  32. elastigirl: (when all it amounts to is a spiritualized version of Father Sarducci’s Mr. Tea)

    Now there’s a clergyman I like!
    (Father Guido Sarducci)

  33. Gus: Are there contests where you can prove your superior depravity? Asking for a friend.

    Attending any New Calvinist church in your area should provide your friend plenty of opportunities for that!

  34. Max: that’s why they call it “self” control

    Well said.
    “Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us.” Ephesians 3:20

  35. dee: TGC has a unique way of dealing with fallen or embarrassing members. They disappear, and no word is spoken. We have commented on this over the years and documented a number of names.

    They just Disappear into the Night and Fog, never to be seen again.
    Never to be spoken of again, just like Cowslip’s Warren in Watership Down.
    Or the 1940s BBC way of firing people that Orwell wrote into 1984; you’d come in one morning and there’d be someone else sitting at the desk. Nobody asked what happened to the guy whose desk it was the day before, or they would Disappear next.

  36. Susan,

    That sounds like a lot of work. Why not just try praying it all away?

    *end snarkasm* spiritual bypassing SEEMS easier than doing the hard work of knowing yourself, healing, and being part of healthy communities, but it doesn’t get you to a good place. Been there, bought the t shirt, don’t need to visit again.

  37. I saw the title of the post again today. Tragically, it appears to me that the NeoCals have turned the word “Gospel” into an adjective. As if “gospel” is roughly equivalent to “new and improved”. They will have much to discuss on Judgement Day.

  38. Believer: Tragically, it appears to me that the NeoCals have turned the word “Gospel” into an adjective.

    Oh yeah, they have gospel-centered everything! Gospel-centered families, gospel-centered entertainment, gospel-centered coffee, etc. etc. They talk a lot about the “Gospel” without ever preaching it! It’s another gospel which is not ‘the’ Gospel at all.

  39. Muff Potter,

    Oh my word Muff you hit the mail right square on the head. Can’t count how many discussions I’ve had with Christians who are sure God has mapped out every detail of our life and is “in control”. No, he’s not. He’s the Almighty king, yes. He can and does intervene in our lives at times but not usually as often as we’d like. In reality he gave us free will and like any good parent He’s sitting back waiting to see what we’ll do with what we’ve been given.

    Men who are control freaks cast God in their own image. Not a whole lot different from my Buddhist neighbors who make and bow down to Buddha images which look just like them.

  40. Fisher: In reality he gave us free will and like any good parent He’s sitting back waiting to see what we’ll do with what we’ve been given.

    God is sovereign. Man has free will. Why is that so hard to understand?

  41. Fisher: Can’t count how many discussions I’ve had with Christians who are sure God has mapped out every detail of our life and is “in control”.

    It’s a very debilitating way of life, and in my opinion, very cultish.
    I escaped the Calvary Chapel cult some 30 years ago and haven’t looked back.

  42. Max: God is sovereign.Man has free will.Why is that so hard to understand?

    Because it can create a paradox.
    And True Believers do NOT like paradoxes.

  43. Muff Potter: It’s a very debilitating way of life, and in my opinion, very cultish.
    I escaped the Calvary Chapel cult some 30 years ago and haven’t looked back.

    And where both of us live, “nondenominational” or “Christian” without any modifiers means Calvary Chapel or Calvary Chapel Clone.

  44. Max: Oh yeah, they have gospel-centered everything! Gospel-centered families, gospel-centered entertainment, gospel-centered coffee, etc. etc.

    Gospel(TM) is the new “Smurf” or “Marclar” or “Like, You Know” – meaningless words used all the time.

  45. Max: Oh yeah, they have gospel-centered everything! Gospel-centered families, gospel-centered entertainment, gospel-centered coffee, etc. etc.

    Like the 1976 novelty song “Bicentennial”:

    “We’ve got Bicentennial cocktail glasses,
    Bicentennial rings,
    Bicentennial stripper’s pasties
    And other Bicentennial things…”

  46. PS Don’t the editors of The Gospel Coalition know the difference between typical temptation involving consensual behavior and the temptation to become a sexual abuser of many, many women?

    Hard to see something when seeing it conflicts with “WHAT I WANNA”.

  47. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    And Jerry Pournelle’s & Larry Niven’s update of the First Circle of Hell in their updated take on Dante’s Inferno:

    Not only are the Lustful being constantly blown to and fro by Neptune-force winds, but there are others (InCels?) constantly running around on the ground below flapping their arms and yelling “THAT GUY UP THERE’S GOT A DOZEN!!!!!!!”

  48. Ariel,

    I think claiming false humility here is unfair. It is possible, but it’s really not something we can know. Also, “prone to wander” is a line from a hymn and isn’t meaning to stray from marital faithfulness…though I can totally see how in the context of the subject it could seem that way.

  49. Marie,

    “I think claiming false humility here is unfair. It is possible, but it’s really not something we can know. Also, “prone to wander” is a line from a hymn and isn’t meaning to stray from marital faithfulness…though I can totally see how in the context of the subject it could seem that way.”
    +++++++++++++++

    seems to me the context of Hayden saying “prone to wander” is Ravi Zacharias – which is entirely about betraying one’s wife scaling up to predator activity, lying & exploiting on a massive scale, and institutional corruption.

    also seems to me that false humility is more something that others perceive in a person’s communication than it is something the person intentionally operates with.

  50. Max,

    i think evangelicalism has messed nice and good-intentioned people up so much they don’t even realize how arrogant their perspective is. how arrogant they come across.

    if ‘humble’ is a priority (clearly not with many strains of evangelicalism), i observe the net result is arrogance dressed up with humble-type language.

    in my life-long experience, it’s a rare evangelical christian who doesn’t conduct themself with false humility.
    .
    .
    (and then I wonder what’s the dividing line between an arrogant person and a non-arrogant person — arrogant is as arrogant does?

    which applies to so many categories.

    misogyny is as misogyny does?

    racism is as racism does?

    does a misogynistic belief system that values shackling women with cute pink handcuffs,

    with cute patterned duct tape over their mouths,

    or at the very least treating them like a child and a token,

    make its adherents misogynists?

    does intention even matter when the end result is arrogant? is destructive to women? is destructive to those at a disadvantage…

    and what does it mean that my silly religion produces these & other despicable end results?)

  51. elastigirl: what does it mean that my silly religion produces these & other despicable end results?

    Jesus in Matthew 7 addresses “silly religion” with its “despicable end results” when He talks about Narrow and Wide Gates … True and False Prophets … True and False Disciples … Wise and Foolish Builders. It doesn’t end well for those who practice silly religion.

  52. elastigirl: Max,

    i think evangelicalism has messed nice and good-intentioned people up so much they don’t even realize how arrogant their perspective is. how arrogant they come across.

    And if they should ever get a clue, it’s immediately dismissed as PERSECUTION!!!!!!! from the Pit of Hell, Orchestrated by Satan Himself.

  53. Max: Jesus in Matthew 7 addresses “silly religion” with its “despicable end results” when He talks about Narrow and Wide Gates … True and False Prophets … True and False Disciples … Wise and Foolish Builders.It doesn’t end well for those who practice silly religion.

    But what if the Narrow Gate gets defined as “Always ME, Never Thee” and the Wide Gate as “Always Thee, NEVER ME”?

  54. Max,

    “Jesus in Matthew 7 addresses “silly religion” with its “despicable end results” when He talks about Narrow and Wide Gates”
    +++++++++++

    yeah.

    well, as i see it, that vaunted ‘narrow road’ is license for all manner of stupidity and cruelty.

    i observe christians & their influencers obsessed with doing everything just right,

    …scrupulously making sure they are on the narrow road. making sure they are air-tight ‘biblical’.

    mining the bible for every possible algebraic equation and solving for ‘biblical’.

    i think it’s part paranoid fear, and part ego, wanting to win — the pleasure of pursuing the advantage over all the lesser christians who aren’t as insightful.

    the result:

    rulesrulesrules that suck any lingering joie de vivre out of living souls,

    and all the other forms of stupidity and cruelty daily on display.

    usually with a sweet smile.

  55. Max:
    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Glad I’m not the gatekeeper.

    But there are a lot of Christians who will gladly line up to be The Gatekeeper.
    Another example of “What Would God Ever Do Without ME?”

  56. elastigirl: and what does it mean that my silly religion produces these & other despicable end results?)

    Our silly religion is dying out, and that’s a good thing.

  57. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    But who is the Keymaster? Rick Moranis? The Keymaster recalled during the Third Reconciliation of the Last of the Meketrex Supplicants, they chose a new form for him (Gozar), that of a giant Sloar.

  58. elastigirl: belief system that values shackling women with cute pink handcuffs,

    with cute patterned duct tape over their mouths,

    Just as they did the boys

    (read Charles Spencer on muscular christianity)

  59. Temptation

    As long as we call it that and not rape or abuse it gives life to the meme that it is not all the abuser’s fault.

    After all, if not tempted, then it would not have happened? So we must also blame, persecute, discipline, whatever, the person who created the temptation.

    Or that’s the implication of such language.

  60. Max: Their primary mission is to promote reformed theology by indoctrinating and encouraging a young army of New Calvinists to accomplish their goal, as they take over unsuspecting traditional (non-Calvinist) churches by stealth and deception.

    And their primary tactic has been to reframe the word “gospel” by narrowing its meaning to the good news of Calvinist predestination.