What Is (White) Christian Nationalism? An Attempt at a Polite Discussion Without Being Ghosted.

Photo by SHVETS production:

“Blah, blah, blah, we’re never going to agree, but I respect your viewpoint even though I think you’re an idiot,” ― J.M. Darhower, Ghosted


This is not a fight about Donald Trump. Some love him, some hate him, and some endure him because they don’t think they have another choice. I get all of them. I have changed perspectives on this mess and feel like I represent many people. I may be foolish for posting this discussion, but I think we all (myself, most of all) can learn something from this. I was so nervous about it that I  ate an entire package of Acai Blueberry Cashews. (550+ calories.)


About twenty years ago, a pastor in a large Baptist church handed out a form with his recommendation for whom the good people of this SBC church should vote. Still in “La La” land, Dee complained to the head pastor, who said he didn’t have a big problem with it since he gave it out “after class.” I was appalled. I voted for some of those characters but knew this shouldn’t be brought into the church.

Can we discuss this without devolving into another discussion of Trump? I sure hope so. Otherwise, I may find myself beating my head on the kitchen table and scaring the pugs. I don’t want to stop comments, so please help in this endeavor. A candidate might inevitably be mentioned. Please help me avoid another bag of blueberry cashews.

Ghosted?

Have friends ghosted you over politics? It has happened to me and it still hurts. I never thought something like this would happen. Nancy French just penned a book to be released in April called Ghosted: An American Story.

Nancy’s family hails from the foothills of the Appalachians, where life was dominated by coal mining, violence, abuse, and poverty. Longing for an adventure, she married a stranger, moved to New York, and dropped out of college. In spite of her lack of education, she found success as a ghostwriter for conservative political leaders. However, when she was unwilling to endorse an unsuitable president, her allies turned on her and she found herself spiritually adrift, politically confused, and occupationally unemployable.

Republicans mocked her, white nationalists targeted her, and her church community alienated her. But in spite of death threats, sexual humiliation, and political ostracization, she learned the importance of finding her own voice–and that the people she thought were her enemies could be her closest friends.

Have you been ghosted by friends who’ve gone down another path? Are you having trouble understanding why this happened? Have you changed your party affiliation to Independent because friends and family refused to accept who you were?

Do you wish we could return to the days when Tip O’Neil, a staunch Democrat, and Ronald Reagan, a conservative, could fight for their policies, go out to dinner, and still be good friends?

I know I do. I was recently told by a former friend that I could not be friends with “liberals.” I must fight at all times. I refused, and I was ghosted.

Here are a few thoughts.

Is it white?

As time has progressed, things have gotten worse. I have watched friends get sucked into the movement called (White) Christian nationalism (CN). I have a problem with the “White” designation. I listen a lot to talking heads, and I have observed many men and women of color who espouse the values of CN. I agree that said movement is mainly white, but that is changing. I am open to correction on this point.

What is Christian nationalism?

From PBS

Wikipedia states:

Christian nationalism is a type of religious nationalism that is affiliated with Christianity. It primarily focuses on the internal politics of society, such as legislating civil and criminal laws that reflect their view of Christianity and the role of religion/s in political and social life.[1]

…Christian nationalism supports the presence of Christian symbols in the public square, and state patronage for the practice and display of religion, such as Christmas as a national holiday, school prayer, the exhibition of nativity scenes during Christmastide, and the Christian Cross on Good Friday.[5][6] Christian nationalism draws political support from the broader Christian right, but not exclusively, given the broad support for observing Christmas as a national holiday in many countries.[7]

Christianity Today posted “What Is Christian Nationalism? ” by Paul Miller, which explains how CN differs from other forms of nationalism, patriotism, and Christianity. I found the following particularly helpful since I consider myself patriotic while I also reject Christian nationalism.

What is patriotism, and is it good?

Patriotism is the love of country. It is different from nationalism, which is an argument about how to define our country. Christians should recognize that patriotism is good because all of God’s creation is good and patriotism helps us appreciate our particular place in it. Our affection and loyalty to a specific part of God’s creation helps us do the good work of cultivating and improving the part we happen to live in. As Christians, we can and should love the United States—which also means working to improve our country by holding it up for critique and working for justice when it errs.

What is nationalism?

There are many definitions of nationalism and an active debate about how best to define it. I reviewed the standard academic literature on nationalism and found several recurring themes. Most scholars agree that nationalism starts with the belief that humanity is divisible into mutually distinct, internally coherent cultural groups defined by shared traits like language, religion, ethnicity, or culture. From there, scholars say, nationalists believe that these groups should each have their own governments; that governments should promote and protect a nation’s cultural identity; and that sovereign national groups provide meaning and purpose for human beings.

What is Christian nationalism?

Christian nationalism is the belief that the American nation is defined by Christianity, and that the government should take active steps to keep it that way. Popularly, Christian nationalists assert that America is and must remain a “Christian nation”—not merely as an observation about American history, but as a prescriptive program for what America must continue to be in the future. Scholars like Samuel Huntington have made a similar argument: that America is defined by its “Anglo-Protestant” past and that we will lose our identity and our freedom if we do not preserve our cultural inheritance.

Christian nationalists do not reject the First Amendment and do not advocate for theocracy, but they do believe that Christianity should enjoy a privileged position in the public square.

There is also a tie-in with the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR.)

This article is an interesting read: Pentecostal Leaders Disavow Christian Nationalism in Stark Statement.

Stung by recent media coverage linking Pentecostal and charismatic Christianity to Christian nationalism, a group of Christian leaders has thrown down the gauntlet.

They’ve created a new website, www.narandchristiannationalism.com, that went live Wednesday – a mini-declaration of war.

What are the signs that you may be a Christian nationalist?

I found this list helpful: 10 Signs You’ve Fallen for Christian Nationalism.

  1. You think America’s founders were evangelical Christians.
  2. You want your church to fly an American flag in the sanctuary.
  3. You think America is God’s chosen nation.
  4. You call yourself an evangelical, but you don’t go to church. (Ryan Burge says that 27 percent of self-identified white evangelicals don’t attend church. To this group, the term “evangelical” isn’t describing their Christian convictions but their political convictions.)
  5. You think government zoning laws should allow churches to be built, but not mosques.
  6. You want mandatory Christian prayers in public schools.
  7. You think immigrants aren’t as good of Americans as those who were born in the country. (Dee adds: Even if your parents immigrated!)
  8. You think spiritual revival will be ushered in by a new president.
  9. You believe the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are divinely inspired.
  10. You think it’s wrong to criticize America.

I found another article that was very helpful in clarifying a few things for me: ” You might be a Christian nationalist if... ” by Kenneth Tanner.

You may be a Christian nationalist if…

  • you believe that one nation on earth has a special vocation to be a Christian nation as an example or sign for all other nations.
  • you believe that God founded your nation as a superior nation among the nations to uniquely enact his will in the earth.
  • you believe the founding documents of your nation reflect the teachings of Scripture accurately, that God was involved in their creation as in the creation of Scripture, that the writers of those documents were primarily interested in expressing Christian principles, and that, like Scripture, they are timeless. (Dee thought the “timless” argument was fantastic)
  • your church removes the national flag of the nation in which it is located, and that removal makes you anxious or angry, or if its services fail to offer a venue for displays of national patriotism, and that absence disturbs or alarms you.
  • you have a low tolerance for an honest assessment of your country’s national sins, or when pastors do the difficult, necessary work of identifying those sins (for sin is personal, familial, and tribal) you refuse their humble discernments. (Dee: the friend who ghosted me became agitated when i pointed out the very real sins of a particular candidate.)
  • the orienting realities of your life or your family’s life are not the apostles’ teaching, a table of bread and wine, fellowship with the poor, and the prayers but your partisan loyalties, and the so-called thought leaders of that loyalty.
  • ou do not recognize that the gospel is pan-national, encompassing all peoples everywhere, all cultures, all languages, where all armaments become gardening tools, where the peace won by the weakness of the human God on the cross reigns.

Finally…

I watched as a former friend took to waving mini flags at political rallies of her chosen hero. This hero has clay feet, and I caused problems by pointing out the very real moral and ethical issues. But there are many moral and ethical issues on the other side of the fence as well. You know that old song, “Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle, etc.” This dichotomy has caused me an internal struggle for the last eight years. Many years ago, I thought I might run for a state-level position. As I watched politics and the world devolve, I became discouraged. Thankfully, my Lutheran church has helped to center me. We are all simultaneously saints and sinners, and to think otherwise is ignoring the need for a Savior.

That means all who run for office are both saints and sinners. No matter your political bent, it might be worth remembering this as the fur starts flying.


Comments

What Is (White) Christian Nationalism? An Attempt at a Polite Discussion Without Being Ghosted. — 194 Comments

  1. re: the vulnerability of relationships to destruction on account of disagreements, while I find this distressing, I think it’s very understandable. If one thinks “what is at stake” is vital enough, it can seem almost obligatory to break fellowship with people who are on what one considers to be the “wrong” side; this rhymes with the issue in the prior post over whether to stand in a posture of kindness toward people who don’t adhere to one’s vision of biblical morality.

    It might be valid to regard Christian Nationalism, as described, to be a response (IMO one of the more extreme possible responses) to the collapse of Christendom and the decline of Church influence in society. My private view is that a better response would be for the churches to recover the ethos of the early centuries, when they were not culturally dominant but were confident that had a better vision of “how to be human” than the prevailing pagan culture. IMO, the moral influence of exemplary life is better able to change people than is control of the law and the instruments of state power.

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  2. Welp…. LOOOONGGG time lurker, first time commenter, but I had to thank you for posting this.

    This pretty much covers all the points I need to share when I have to explain yet again why I can’t subscribe to the political ideals I used to.

    And I so appreciate the voices like yours, and David and Nancy French, and Tim Alberta as well, who put truth over everything. Thank you!

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  3. I can’t help but think of Jeff Foxworthy — “You might be a Christian Nationalist if…”

    Anyway, regarding the signs:

    1. Ever seen a Jefferson Bible? Read any Ben Franklin? Hardly evangelical.
    2. Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this world.”
    3. God already did the chosen nation thing. But the New Testament makes it pretty clear that His chosen “nation” is now his people scattered throughout the world.

    5. That’s gonna go really well for the Christians when we cease to be the default religion.
    6. How does mandatory prayer on the part of non-Christians glorify God?
    7. Ever met any actual immigrants? Sone of the most motivated people I know are immigrants and their children.
    8. [expletive]
    9. Care to cite the Bible passage?
    10. Every nation on this earth, including God’s expressly chosen nation of Old Testament Israel, has messed up. If we aren’t willing to acknowledge that a human institution has flaws, we haven’t taken to heart anything God says about the nature of sin.

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  4. Maybe America came into the world in 1776 “for such a time as this”, but the time as this is just about over.

    Consider: “Based on most reports and those who have done the research, the average country will survive approximately 150 years … since the United States of America established its independence in 1776, it means it will be soon approaching its 250th year. What makes this interesting is that the average length of most empires, is 250 years.”

    https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/how-long-does-a-country-last

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  5. Thank you so much Dee for fearlessly addressing this huge topic.

    I agree that ghosting is a real problem with many facets and ramifications. We’ve all experienced way too many uncomfortable dinner table conversations with family and friends. But, we don’t want to throw people away because we don’t agree with them. What to do?

    On a practical level, I am very willing to have any one speak of their views in my home at any time. The only time we draw the line and stop extending fellowship is when someone stops speaking in love. When cruel words are used, when derogatory names are used, when love is absent. Then, the door is not open to admit people who may hurt others in my household.

    Members of our family, including myself, come from a history of severe emotional and physical abuse. This informs the lines that we have drawn in our home. We must make our home first and foremost a safe haven.

    If folks want to enter into debate in print, speak out in a public forum. That’s fine. I might join in. In fact, I often do so.

    But, in our home, we firmly say that ‘Love is spoken here”. Period. End of discussion. We have to hold the line at love, respect, and civility in our homes, our families and in our church families.

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  6. Jeffrey Chalmers: I have been ghosted

    I have been ghosted by local church members because of my views on New Calvinism … I have been ghosted by family members because I’m not “woke” enough on certain cultural issues … I have been ghosted by neighbors because of my Christian witness … heck, I suspect there are some Wartburgers who ghost me because of my comments … guess I’m just an old irrelevant ghost.

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  7. Jeffrey Chalmers: been ghosted..

    Nope, not here, not recently.

    Within our immediate family … we agree on broad overriding values.

    We were all ghosted long ago before this present culture war,
    -by the group that espouses morality and family values but preys on children and others, and supports predators.
    -by the manly guys and their princess wives that degrade women as less.
    -by the heavy collectors of wealth via church initiatives, in the name of the Gospel, and thus degrade poor church people that can’t pay for the Gospel.

    Long before predator Potus 45 and his birther Flotus 45, we were completely ghosted by such groups as the three above, among others. It didn’t take #45 for this to happen. It happened a long time ago.

    Long time acoming. Nothing new here. This has all been around for decades, even centuries?

    Falwell Jr + wifey with the poolboy… they’re part of this whole deal. Did they just turn out to be perverts recently? Not a chance. Long time coming. They’re the ones who endorsed #45 and brought the church on board. Falwells delivered the church vote at large to 45 to win. But this all did not start with 45.

    How long have Piper, Wilson, Haggard, Swaggart, Copeland, Driscoll, Hinn, etc., been in business? They’re all old now, having nurtured followers over decades.

    Frank Schaeffer writes of the history. So do Kristen du Mez and Beth Allison Barr.

    Long time coming.

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  8. Molly245,

    Molly,

    My best friend of 40 years dropped me during the 2020 election because I carefully explained why I wasn’t voting for a certain candidate. She really thought I had gone to hell in a handbasket. We had a couple of card exchanges over the next few years, and then we finally talked last summer. Politics never came up. It’s still a little strained because at one time we could talk about anything, but given that she is in her 70s and I am in my 60s, we both know that our lives are only getting shorter. So, time, boundaries and understanding seemed to have worked for us.

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  9. When someone ghosts you for months and months and then comes back to haunt you, say, a year or two later …. acting as if they’ve been your bestest buddy the whole time, is is ghosting if you ignore them completely?
    If so, I have ghosted a couple of people, and I’d do it again, too!

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  10. Samuel Conner: It might be valid to regard Christian Nationalism, as described, to be a response (IMO one of the more extreme possible responses) to the collapse of Christendom and the decline of Church influence in society. My private view is that a better response would be for the churches to recover the ethos of the early centuries, when they were not culturally dominant but were confident that had a better vision of “how to be human” than the prevailing pagan culture.

    Agreed.

    On a related note, one of the several people Mike Cosper interviewed in this podcast made the observation that we’re not really in a post-Christian society, but more of a neo-pagan one. People are back to worshiping power, sex, wealth, etc. That made a lot of sense to me.

    https://m.soundcloud.com/the_devil_and_the_deep_blue_sea/the-devil-and-the-deep-blue-sea-pilot-episode

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  11. Soooo many thoughts, but I will try to limit them.

    I am neither liberal / progressive or super conservative (although I do lean slightly more to the right). I went “independent” in the late 1990’s or early 2000’s as I became more and more uncomfortable with the strident language of many in the church to say nothing of the public discourse. I couldn’t vote for Trump in either election. Nor could I vote for Clinton or Biden.

    I think Christian Nationalism is a huge problem as it has greatly contributed the widening divide in this nation. The view from the middle seems to have become lonely. I have been left (pun intended) with fewer friends as so many have taken a sharp and hard turn to the right.

    My brother and sister only listen to extreme right outlets. My sister thinks Trump is going to save America from the left-wing satanic baby cabal. My brother and his wife attend a church run by DR. J. B. Hixson who has a ministry that provides some “interesting” end times materials. We completely avoid political discussions.

    It is way too complex, lengthy, and nuanced for me to express in much detail my path. Plus it would involve discussing the behaviors of specific politicians which seem to have grown in numbers and become more and more extreme every year.

    I am P1$$3d at what has happened to Christianity the last 20 or 30 years and this is one of the bigger things that bothers me about what has happened. Although not as much as the abuses that have been going on for even longer.

    I am sure I have, at the same time, said too much and not nearly enough.

    Lord have mercy on us. We surely need it.

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  12. I can’t help but think of Jeff Foxworthy — “You might be a Christian Nationalist if…”
    R,

    I’ll mimic Jeff Foxworthy, if you don’t mind:
    If you think the inscription on the base of the Statue of Liberty has more typos than it has letters of the alphabet, you might be a Christian Nationalist.

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  13. Can we discuss this without devolving into another discussion of Trump?

    Well, he HAS become the focal point for a lot of Christian Nationalism, the Anointed One who WILL either restore a Christian Nation or Jump-start End Times Armageddon.

    And the reversal of Roe v Wade just poured gasoline (if not hydrazine) on the fire.

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  14. Sarah (aka Wild Honey): People are back to worshiping power, sex, wealth,

    This is exactly what the immoral materialist Falwell clan especially Senior did, what the muscular christianity / works of the flesh / body theology Fletcher and Smyth clans did (is “pyjamas junior” still at large somewhere, recycling among various brand named identicartels, not yet qualified in a non-clergy job?), what the materialist bishop Ball and Bash Nash (mentor of Stott) did.

    Religion big shouts discredited:

    – prayer
    – Scripture
    – providence
    – belief
    – the gifts
    – inference
    – boyhood AND girlhood together
    – all language whatsoever

    The popes are dominionists from the 1490s (Leo XIII not really) and especially since 1946, NF look to Wagner who with Bentley declared worldwide dominion in 2008, “christians” condone the unrepentance of the gender theologians who are enabling contractors in causing anguish to millions of children and adults.

    This entire thing has devastated British politics and personal life which while atheistic, have melded seemlessly with the strongarming which we are talking about. Americans don’t be lulled that it is merely a matter of putting your extremists in their place much as they fuel this worldwide just as much through their stated opponents. The followers of W James have enforced pincer movements (Catch 22, ratchet effect, one way valve). Everyone (especially outside the US) who doesn’t call for the repentance of our spiritual betters and (if possible) forebears is going along with dominionism.

    Make no mistakes, the NAR pretend to be pentecostals but don’t believe in spiritual gifts (nor does Dr Brown that I’ve observed). The AOG went almost totally over to dominionism, the C of E holds to a barely muted and virulent version, NF operatives personally known to me spoke of looking up to Wagner (as does everybody into “church planting” – does that remind anyone of ACNA or the “pretend SBC”?)

    Religion is just memes. Churches have no distinct Holy Spirit teachings and hence no prayer, unlike the teachings and practice of Jesus and the (real) first apostles and what is in the real Bible.

    Gender theology which is dominionism, is destroying huge numbers of wouldbe agnostic boys and girls through contractors. The world is the semi-unwitting proxy of all-powerful religion. I want Wartburgers to protest! (Griggists are exempt) Not just tut tut about the status of ladies of uncertain age in churches and churchy households (and I’m not thinking of anyone here). No I am not calling for persecution like a cynical priest I knew did, I don’t want to see how he would cope. Gender / body theology is not as good for any boys (along with girls) as christian mothers believe it to be.

    If there are typos blame it on some glitches! My review of the Newsweek article to follow.

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  15. 1 – Complicity in power by religion is what set worldly elements preying on me and my peers in our youth. With devastating ever more compounded effects. Dominionism = totalitarianism and terror by all means, no matter how anodyne and melt-in-mouth they make themselves look.

    2 – Please don’t “package deal” the same ensemble (raft or envelope) of policies as these undesirables lump together (which is what they want you to do). In other parts of the world there are genuinely blood curdling policies implemented or threatened which need case by case honest critiquing. Some religious Americans who don’t critique religious leaders enough, may have well placed concern about a few details of policy but don’t know how to articulate this or to tell real friends from false ones. In the UK at any rate, it’s not really safe to discuss policy (in any matter) all, any more. I think that if you (anyone) make yourself look (on a religion blog such as Dee provides) as if you are package dealing then you destroy credence in your views on religion, that’s my opinion.

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  16. Christian Nationalism is the church’s equivalent of Jesus’ temptation on the mount: worship the devil and the devil will give you all the power, in this case, in one nation.

    The Church has been traditionally bad at resisting this temptations.

    Like all nationalisms, CN is also logically impossible: in Russia, many orthodox think Holy Russia is God’s chosen nation, in the US, many Americans think the same about their country.

    The history of both countries does not seem to support either claim.

    In 1914, German and French priests and pastors blessed the cannons and troops of their respective sides.

    “Patriotism is a lively sense of collective responsibility. Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on its own dunghill.”
    – Richard Aldington (https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/acref/9780191826719.001.0001/q-oro-ed4-00000195 )

    Love of country should be expressed as a sense of responsibility and acting on that sense, not jingoistic display.

    My favourite quote in this context is by Gustav Heinemann, President of West Germany from 1969-1974, a dour Lutheran, member of the anti-nazi “Confessing Church” (which cost him his career in the 1930s, when so many German Lutherans followe the pro-Hitler “German Christians”), who, when asked if he did love his country, answered, brusquely, “I love my wife.”

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  17. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I have ghosted a couple of people, and I’d do it again

    New Testament teaching allows Christians to “ghost” certain people:

    “I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.” (1 Corinthians 5:11)

    “Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?” (2 Corinthians 6:14)

    “I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.” (Romans 16:17)

    “Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.” (2 Timothy 3:5)

    “If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thessalonians 3:14)

    etc. etc.

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  18. As a psychotherapist, I have experienced a marked rise in family conflict in which families “face off” against one another on the question of Christian Nationalism (one side for, one side against.) Too often the result are family members who “opt out” of their families or other family members that break total fellowship. Also, individual and family trauma is increasing because of issues such as CN.

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  19. Max,

    it’s like jr. high. (or middle school).

    what makes being part of a group so soothing and rewarding is being able to exclude others at your whim.

    well, i remember this on the playground circa age 7.

    whatever this thing called social media is, it’s regressed emotional intelligence back to age 12,…9….7…

    This is all really, really dumb.

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  20. Sorry I was interrupted while posting my previous comment, but will elaborate a tiny bit.

    Supporters of CN in my area, among my friends, and among my family favor one particular political party and the presumed nominee for president. There was a time in my past I favored that nominee, but with all that person’s actions over the last 8 years have revealed, his legal issues, and the things he says, I no longer support him. Beyond ghosted. Even by some close family.

    Supporters of his opposition in my area are against CN, as am I. However, I take some stands they detest such as a general but not absolute rejection of abortion, a refusal to support gay marriage, a refusal to see straights living together like married couples when not married, and a belief girls and women’s sports and bathrooms should both be restricted to those born with female dna and living as females. Conservatives call me liberal because I recognize not all people are born xx or xy. Liberals call me fundy because I realize most are, and do not see society needing to tie itself in knots for the desires of the truly very few.

    So both the liberals and the CN crowd ghost me. But you know what? That is ok. I will continue to speak the truth as I understand it. I will continue to believe I have the right to change my mind on policies, parties, and politicians. I will continue to endeavor to understand “thus sayeth the Lord” and ignore the silly idea right and wrong are determined by popular vote of puny human beings.

    And if ghosted, well I guess I will be ghosted. The thing is, if someone is willing to ghost me for disagreeing with them politically, there was no real relationship.

    And Max is right: there are some we SHOULD be ghosting. Not with a mean spirit, but praying with sorrow for them and begging God to lift their delusions.

    As the kids say, haters gonna hate. That shows more about them than about who they hate.

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  21. Max,

    base human nature, i guess. when being pulled down, instead of being pulled up.

    maturity is allowing yourself to go in the upward direction.

    when no one’s there to be the impetus (consequences), maturity is pulling your own self up with no outside forces.
    .
    .
    (i’ve had some success in encouraging my young adult kids to make better choices with the line “pull up to age 30, instead of being pulled down to age 12” — they want nothing more than to get as far as they can from silly, embarrassing age 12.

    even so, that social media operates at age 12, or even worse age 7 — and trains people to behave this way outside of social media — is lost on them)

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  22. I’ve definitely been ghosted by many former Christian friends and acquaintances. It seems it was fine for me to hear and see their viewpoint, but they didn’t want to see or hear mine, or anything that differed from their viewpoint.

    Very discouraging to be treated this way by people who call themselves Christians. I can almost understand non-Christians doing this, but Christians are supposed to be different . . .

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  23. Is Christian Nationalism actually ever going to be a realistic option? Oh heck no. If Mohler, McArthur, Dever, Piper, Greaar, conservative Evangelicals start calling for it; let me know. They won’t because none of them think there is a political answer to a spiritual/moral problem.
    However, for those who despise Evangelicals, C.N. is a convenient, but untrue, cudgel to convince the average man as to the dangers of C.N.
    __________

    But let me clear about this; any country who adopts Biblical morality as their set point WILL PROSPER. Biblical morality leads to human flourishing.

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  24. Christian nationalism is about power. Christian symbolism and patriotism are both used to acquire/retain power while shaming anyone who disagrees with CN ideology.

    Christianity should be about love. As the old song goes, “They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love.”

    This is an important discussion to have, I appreciate you starting it.

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  25. Susan: Christian nationalism is about power. Christian symbolism and patriotism are both used to acquire/retain power while shaming anyone who disagrees with CN ideology.

    And after the Coup comes the Cleansing(TM).
    “On the night that Ernst Roehm died voices rang out
    In the rolling Bavarian hills
    And swept through the cities and danced in the gutters
    Grown strong like the joining of wills

    “Oh echoed away like a roar in the distance
    In moonlight carved out of steel
    Singing “All the lonely, so long and so long
    You don’t know how I long, how I long
    You can’t hold me, I’m strong now I’m strong
    Stronger than your law”
    — Al Stewart, 1973, “The Last Day of June 1934”

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  26. Muff Potter: Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Do they think all of that was God-ordained and righteous?

    At the time they did, and they lined it all up with Joshua’s conquest of Canaan as being perfectly ‘Biblical’.

    If you’re talking the New England Puritans, they were Live Action Role Playing without realizing it:

    Book of Joshua: The Role-Playing Game:

    Led out of the Pagan False Apostate Church of England, CHECK.
    Crossed over the waters to a New World Promised Land flowing with Milk and Honey, CHECK.
    A Promised Land where they could live out God’s Law as a Godly Chosen People in a Godly Nation, CHECK.
    Heathen Canaanites already occupying their Promised Land, CHECK…

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  27. I agree that said movement is mainly white, but that is changing. I am open to correction on this point.

    While maybe not explicitly, at least outside of private conversations, the movement is mostly about the Protestant Revolution which comes out of Norther Europe. So paleness is baked into the history.

    Look at the loathing of southern Europeans by Protestant faiths in this country for the last 200 years. Most of it based on Catholic vs. Protestant conflict.

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  28. Evangelicals love their codes. Christian Nationalism has become a code for white nationalism.

    Both of these concepts are a reaction to a changing demographic as both Christians and Whites have seen decrease in real numbers and their control of the conversation.

    So you get replacement theory and other ideas mixed in and out comes “Diagalon”, the takeover of certain states etc.

    For these folks, Christianity is a convenient label, what they want is a return to the good old days (for them) without realizing the outcome of the “good old days” are these days.

    There’s whole swaths of the population that had no voice in North American democracy. Their children are the product of a radically different history and they are coming to the table expecting to be heard.

    For some folks, democracy was great as long your demographic was calling the shots.

    If there was a golden age, a good chunk of North America never lived in it.

    Welcome to the post colonial world.

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  29. Muff Potter: They (Native America) were burning, flaying, and bashing each other’s brains out with war clubs long before the white man arrived.

    Some were. Hard to say how much as our disease wiped out so many. Like 95%. And in North America where there wasn’t really a stone record in writing it’s hard to say.

    What I take from what happened in the various South American empires pre Columbus is that most empires seem to exist only with a hard does of brutality to others.

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  30. Gus,
    Gustav von Osterriech:
    Is “German Christians” the period name for “Patriot Churches”?

    If so, these German Christains/Patriot Churches were on a winning streak, with a Strong Leader who Won the Culture War against the Pornographic HOMOSEXUAL Decadendce of Weimar Berlin (don’t forget Stopping ABORTION). A Strong Leader who was making sure their enemies could never rise again. A Strong Leader who could only be an (if not the) Anointed One, sent by God.

    The Barman Declaration, on the last day of May, 1934.
    Exactly one month before their Anointed Leader figured he didn’t need them any more.
    On the Last Day of June, 1934.

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  31. NC Now: Look at the loathing of southern Europeans by Protestant faiths in this country for the last 200 years. Most of it based on Catholic vs. Protestant conflict.

    During the heyday of Scientific Racism and Eugenics (given Cosmic Authority by Darwin instead of the Bible), the border between the More Evolved Races (such as the Anglo-Saxon) and the Less Evolved Races (everybody else) matched almost exactly the division between Protestant and Catholic national groups in Europe at the end of the Reformation Wars.

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  32. Max,

    Funny you mention this..

    I was thinking that in some ways, I have been “ghosted” for over 40 years.. when ever you do not hold to a specific doctorine (i.e. young earth, TULIP, non-TULIP, etc) behavior, non-behavior, (i.e. don’t drink, etc, etc), many “hollier than thou” types will practice some level of “ghosting” on you.. or at least, make you feel “compromised”
    But what has changed, IMHO, is how “unchristian” “Christain NAtionalism” is, and how so much of fundamentalism and Evangelicalism has bought into it.. I am just baffled by it..

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  33. “The stranger on the sociological and human level, is someone who suggests the unknown, the prohibited, the beyond; he seduces, he attracts, he wounds – and leaves. He is someone who comes from places you have never visited – and never will – sent by dark powers who know more about you than you know about them, and who resent you for being what you are, where you are, or simply – for being. The stranger represents what you are not, what you cannot be, simply because you are not he. Between you and him no contact seems possible, except through suspicion, terror, or repulsion. The stranger is the other. He is not bound by your laws, by your memories; his language is not yours, nor his silence. He is an emissary of evil and violence. Or of death. Surely he is from the other side.
    Thus in many traditions he was, in fact, rejected, isolated, condemned. He was the nomad looking for water and wine; the gypsy asking for a place to sing; the beggar searching for a roof; the fugitive seeking shelter; the madman haunted by shadows. Whether seeking consolation or forgetfulness, the stranger was sent away or somehow disposed of. The tribe wished to stay closed –unified. Pure. The stranger, bearer of an evil omen, could only undermine the established order. He had to be expelled. Or exorcised. Or even killed.
    Or, in more enlightened civilisations, he had to be absorbed, meaning –assimilated. Disarmed, undressed, transformed. He would be welcome to stay, but only after giving up his name, his past, his memories, his bonds with his own people. He would be offered the possibility of living, and living happily, provided that he paid the inevitable rite of passage, which was a kind of metamorphosis or transubstantiation. You wish to be with us? Be one of us.
    There was yet another, more radical, method, when practised and perfected by the Nazis.”
    (Eli Wiesel, From the Kingdom of Memory: The Stranger in the Bible).

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  34. Max: Perhaps America is the mystery Babylon of Revelation 17, the great prostitute who sits by many waters.

    There is also a symbolic interpretation of Revelation where The Beast represents a corrupt political system, The False Prophet a corrupt religious system, and The Whore of Babylon a corrupt economic system, all in cahoots.

    And then this dead lamb stands before them, speaks Words of Truth (the sword from the mouth, the scrolls, the bowls), and they are all swept away.

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  35. Max: Our children are being stunted by social media. Babies sucking on bottles are cute, but when they are still doing that in their 20s-30s, it’s an ugly thing to behold.

    And the majority of those children want to grow up to e Social Media Influencer.
    “GANG-GANG! GANG-GANG!”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGnY5Dp9Ekk

    (“NPC” means something different than the usual “Non-Player Character”; in this context it means a video-game bot NPC with a limited repertoire of a few tag lines and gestures repeated over and over.)

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  36. Jeffrey J Chalmers: But what has changed, IMHO, is how “unchristian” “Christain NAtionalism” is, and how so much of fundamentalism and Evangelicalism has bought into it.. I am just baffled by it..

    I’m not.
    It’s a combination of “On the pinnacle of the Temple, shown all the Kingdoms of the World and told how they can all be Yours…” and “We didn’t win the world by talking; break out the AR-15s”.

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  37. They (Native America) were burning, flaying, and bashing each other’s brains out with war clubs long before the white man arrived.
    Muff Potter,

    Yeah, they were ……. kinda similar to what the English, Scottish, Irish, Germans, Russians, French, Austrians, Swiss, Greeks, Romans, Macedonians, etc. we’re doing to one another on the other side of the big pond … except “Christian”.

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  38. Muff Potter,

    Bridget: Actually they do. It has even been taught on a national level through the idea of Manifest Destiny. It is wide spread in Christian publishing, especially in the homeschooling arena.

    (Yeah. I know….. 5th grade for me in public school, secular American history books…. a chapter all about Monroe…. but just history, nothing in a religious context.)

    In comparison to the conquest of Canaan: the sun did not stand still in 1776, nor during any of the Indian Wars.
    However, in contrast, there surely was some powerful shakin’ goin’ on in the bowels of the Earth on the New Madrid fault line…… rang church bells in Boston and made the Big Muddy flow backwards (the western edge of the American frontier at that time). Hmmmmm…

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  39. Jeffrey J Chalmers: how “unchristian” “Christian Nationalism” is

    It’s sort of like the New Calvinists attempting to restore the one true gospel to the church (Calvinism = gospel) by exhibiting unchristian behavior taking over churches through stealth and deception, authoritarian rule, and aberrant theology. Both think God is on their side; therefore, anything they do is OK.

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  40. Headless Unicorn Guy: I’m not.

    While I understand your saying “ I’m not surprised” given all the hypocrisy and corruption we talked about on TWW, I still think back to all the exhortation to “purity” ( not just sexual), being a “good witness”, etc, etc, that was rammed down our throats ( think of good old Johny Mac, for example), from my days in fundy land and evangelical land, and then turn around and endorse MAGA and CN, which does not even try to “cover up” its blatant violent nature/strong man/fascist direction…… sigh…

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  41. Jesus (remember Him?) said we are to first of all, seek His kingdom. Pliny the Younger, when writing about the heretics (failing to worship Roman gods) he was persecuting to death “were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and [weekly] bound themselves by solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, BUT NEVER TO COMMIT ANY FRAUD, THEFT, OR ADULTERY, NEVER TO FALSIFY THEIR WORD, NOR DENY A TRUST…” If Christians could once again not worry about power and being right, but focus on Christ, we may actually once again win the world for Him. If we continue to act like the world, there is no hope the Kingdom will come from our efforts.

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  42. Headless Unicorn Guy: The Barman Declaration, on the last day of May, 1934.
    Exactly one month before their Anointed Leader figured he didn’t need them any more.

    The Barmen Declaration was made by those that thought the church should not be a willing partner of the nazi regime’s political goals and deification of their “Führer”, and also opposed the “Führerprinzip” (strong-arm leadership by 1 person) in the church.

    The Confessing Church (with its Barmen Declaration) were the opposite of the nazi party’s useful idiots, the “Deutsche Christen”, unlike today’s Jeffress, Graham, Morris, …

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  43. Jeffrey Chalmers: I still think back to all the exhortation to “purity” ( not just sexual), being a “good witness”, etc, etc, that was rammed down our throats ( think of good old Johny Mac, for example), from my days in fundy land and evangelical land, and then turn around and endorse MAGA and CN, which does not even try to “cover up” its blatant violent nature/strong man/fascist direction……

    And the very same types who played Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist 24/7 glibly quoting “And GOD Shall Send Them Strong Delusion, That They Might Believe a Lie – Tsk. Tsk.” are the first to fall on their knees before the gold-plated fiberglass statue or cardboard-cutout standee intoning “MY LORD And MY GOD!”

    Remember Luke 4:5-6?
    Mene, Mene, Tekel, Uparshim.
    (They could have least held out for the White Witch’s Turkish Delights…)

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  44. Max: It’s sort of like the New Calvinists attempting to restore the one true gospel to the church (Calvinism = gospel) by exhibiting unchristian behavior taking over churches through stealth and deception, authoritarian rule, and aberrant theology.Both think God is on their side; therefore, anything they do is OK.

    Just like Islam’s Salafi, Wahabi, and Talibani restoring the One True Koran to al-Umma.
    By Any Means Necessary.

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  45. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): They (Native America) were burning, flaying, and bashing each other’s brains out with war clubs long before the white man arrived.
    Muff Potter,

    Yeah, they were ……. kinda similar to what the English, Scottish, Irish, Germans, Russians, French, Austrians, Swiss, Greeks, Romans, Macedonians, etc. we’re doing to one another on the other side of the big pond … except “Christian”.

    “Grasshoppers” by Bruno Bozetto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijcuXh-Lk9E

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  46. Max: America is in debt to China for around $1 trillion. That communist country is a-whistlin’-dixie all the way to the bank!

    More like a standoff. All that debt held means that if the US economy tanks, they’re hooped. Likewise China needs the us market way more than the us needs them, so far Asian and African markets don’t have the spending power. I went to China in 2007, it’s definitely not sunshine and lollipops. Massive corruption and a disposable workforce. With it’s economic power and diversity, in an economy war the us would win, and China knows that. Here I’ve noticed an increase in goods on the shelf made in North America and a lot of electronics are starting to come from Mexico, Indonesia and Malaysia. Particularly Mexico – it’s a partner in NAFTA or whatever it’s called now. Manufacturing is starting to return to north america.

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  47. The day of the J6 riots, I had the TV on CNN and was posting links to their coverage. I got an instant message from a friend informing me that my postings were “divisive and unchristian.” When I asked why, she said I needed to let people make up their own minds, and had I posted anything from Newsmax or Fox?

    I told her I was too upset to talk about that subject and dropped it. We are no longer FB friends, and she and her husband have stopped attending the church I go to.

    Between COVID and political/social unrest, we’ve lost a lot of people and many of them have gone to another church of my particular denomination. In effect, we’ve had a church split and it breaks my heart. Several people who left were people I considered friends. Although I have FB connections with some of them, I feel like I have to tiptoe around certain issues.

    I have a friend I can’t talk women’s roles with because she is much more conservative than I am. She can pull the arguments out of her head instantly while I’m sitting there going “uh-uh-uh”. She has told me flat out that she thinks our congregation is making a couple of mistakes; when I asked her, did she still consider me a sister in Christ, she said yes. (The “mistakes” I think she’s referring to are allowing instruments in the worship service and giving women full participation in leadership with the exception of the eldership. The first part of that sentence should tell you that I attend a Church of Christ, where singing is traditionally acapella.)

    I’m even having to tiptoe around my husband because we’re not seeing eye to eye politically these days and that also hurts. He commented some time back that a candidate for governor in my state had “never conceded defeat in the last election”. It took all the self-control I had not to say, “That’s rich, considering that a certain Presidential candidate refused to do the same thing!”

    I have wanted out of the US for years because I’m terrified at what’s happening to the US. But I can’t go because 1) my husband doesn’t see the need, and 2) both my son and I have medical needs that might be considered a drain on the system. My son is autistic and I have a number of physical/mental conditions.

    I know the phrase, “God is in control,” and that we Christians win in the end. But sometimes that just does not help because it may be years before we win the final battle (or rather, God wins the final battle.) In fact, when I shared with a group of people that I was really scared about a particular Presidential election coming up, I was greeted with a chorus of, “God is in control.” My first thought was, Of course you can say, God is in control. Your candidate’s going to win!

    I hate and despise what certain politicians have done to this country, and I hate how so many people have turned on each other. In 2016, I seriously voted for Snoopy. I didn’t trust one candidate and I didn’t think the other was qualified, and I didn’t want to sit out a vote because I didn’t want to forfeit my right to complain. (That particular day, it took around FIVE HOURS in line – it was the first day of early voting – and I was barbecued by the sun.) In 2020, I voted for Biden to keep Trump out of the White House. Now I’m scared that Trump may get back in, and we are going to have discord at the least and flat-out violence at the worst. And I am afraid of losing more friends to political madness.

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  48. As regards the “whiteness” or lack thereof of CN, that gets complicated. I think it’s important to remember that whiteness has as much to do with who is in and who is out of the dominant culture as it does with pigmentation. When my Polish great-grandfather came through Ellis Island about a hundred years ago, he was a “Slav,” not “white.”

    I wonder if the presence of people of color in CN is similar to the way patriarchal, misogynistic structures co-opt the voices of women. In those spaces, a woman can never be a true, inner circle insider. If she toes the line, she can achieve a degree of security, even influence. She can feel like an insider, even though her status is actually tenuous and dependent on her conforming to the role the men in power allow her. She is useful to them because she helps keep other women in line, and they can point to her to deflect accusations of misogyny. “Hey, we don’t keep women down, see how well she’s doing? We love women [as long as they are the right kind of women].”

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  49. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): (Yeah. I know….. 5th grade for me in public school, secular American history books…. a chapter all about Monroe…. but just history, nothing in a religious context.)

    If you’re of my generation you got that bit in Sunday School and Wednesday night Royal Ambassadors.

    And for those of us not in the big cities, a sizable chunk of our school teachers went to church with us on Sunday. Or down the street.

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  50. NC Now: If you’re of my generation you got that bit in Sunday School and Wednesday night Royal Ambassadors.

    And for those of us not in the big cities, a sizable chunk of our school teachers went to church with us on Sunday. Or down the street.

    I was a Royal Ambassador … and some of my school teachers were Sunday School teachers … the good ole days, when God and Country meant something.

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  51. CMT: I think it’s important to remember that whiteness has as much to do with who is in and who is out of the dominant culture as it does with pigmentation. When my Polish great-grandfather came through Ellis Island about a hundred years ago, he was a “Slav,” not “white.”

    As were my mother’s family when they came from somewhere in Northern Italy around 120 years ago. They were NOT White; Subhuman immigrants – Wops, Dagos, “White N*gg*rs” – forced into their own “Little Italy” ghetto by the REAL Whites.

    And those REAL Whites included the Irish, who 50 years before were NOT White, just other Subhuman immigrants mongrelizing the Race Purity of WASP “Native Americans” as in Gangs of New York.

    This was a recurring pattern, each wave of Subhuman immigrants (whose existence would destroy America) stomped on by the Pure Race of REAL Americans (including the second/third generation of the last wave of Subhumans, PROVING their Whiteness by stomping on the new wave off the boat. “White” was defined much more narrowly than today.

    I wonder if the presence of people of color in CN is similar to the way patriarchal, misogynistic structures co-opt the voices of women.

    Ever heard of “Token Blacks”?
    Same dynamic.
    The tokens get better treatment as a publicity stunt, and in turn they’re better treated (kind of like pets) and will side with their masters against the others because those others could threaten their favored position. You saw this during slavery with “House vs Field”.

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  52. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    “When someone ghosts you for months and months and then comes back to haunt you, say, a year or two later …. acting as if they’ve been your bestest buddy the whole time, is is ghosting if you ignore them completely?

    If so, I have ghosted a couple of people, and I’d do it again, too!”
    ++++++++++

    Sounds like reasonable boundaries to me. (for the record)

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  53. Tina: I was greeted with a chorus of, “God is in control.” My first thought was, Of course you can say, God is in control. Your candidate’s going to win!

    Because THEY knew THEY wold be the ones sitting at His Left and Right Hands.
    Like Doug Wilson’s Southern Slavery as it Really Was, they see themselves becoming The Massa in the Big House. Sprinkle in a little Prosperity Gospel and Great Chain of Being and of course God is In Control – See How He Hath Blessed ME!

    This is the attitude of a Grievance Culture, a culture whose only reason for existence has become Revenge Upon The Other. All Grievance Cultures have three axioms:
    1) Once WE Were Lords of All Creation, and Everything Was Perfect!
    2) Then THEY Came and Took It All Away. PERSECUTION!!!!!!!
    3) PAYBACK TIME! WITH INTEREST!!!!!

    And since Roe v Wade (and Stonewall), Evangelicals have been groomed by a growing diet of “Persecution P*rn” with (1) and (2). (1) is the image of the Perfect Christian Nation and (2) the Terrible PERSECUTION!!!!!!!!(TM) Everywhere Today. (Remember a lot of churches formed echo chambers of Holiness and Separation long before Social Media Algorithms.) Let ferment for a couple generations and all that was needed was a focus to release the Face-Eating Leopards and kick off (3). And in 2016 they found a focus.

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  54. NC Now,

    I didn’t hear of Royal Ambassadors and Girls Auxiliary until I was grown……. But as a lifelong rural Kentucky farm girl…. yeah, our teachers went to church with us.
    Just the thought of my HS geometry teacher teaching a SS class was frightening. In geometry class, teacher would say, “Do problems (fill in blank) on page (fill in blank)”…. then she would sit at her desk and read the newspaper. Glad she lived over 10 miles away from me and we did not go to the same church!

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  55. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    This is an Internet Monk essay from 2009, “The Limbughization of Evanglicals”:
    https://imonk.blog/2009/03/14/the-limbaughization-of-evangelicals/
    Let Entropy set in for a generation or two, then introduce a New Messiah, and you get what’s happening today.

    I’m sure Gus recognizes the pattern of a Grievance Culture; one Strauss-Howe Cycle (90 years) ago, the country just to the north of his actually became the best-known textbook Type Example of a Grievance Culture gone all the way. And the Christian Culture Warriors and Patriot Churches of that time and place cheered it on; the New Messiah Figure had Won The Kulturkampf.

    And the kicker was, at least those former Central Powers countries had legitimate hard times in the aftermath of World War One; they were Truly Desperate. In comparison, what American Evangelicals are going through are (in the words of the prophet Alfred Yankovic) “First World Problems”, minor to trivial in comparison.

    But when the only problems you have left are First World Problems, the survival wiring in the brain will still react to those First World Problems as life-or-death us-or-them Survival. And act accordingly.

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  56. Debbie Eickmeyer: If Christians could once again not worry about power and being right, but focus on Christ, we may actually once again win the world for Him. If we continue to act like the world, there is no hope the Kingdom will come from our efforts.

    And after a generation of such a Godly Christian Nation, the name “Jesus Christ” will carry the same baggage as the name “Adolf Hitler”.

    Like an entire nation (other than the Christians in Power) becoming vaccinated against anything Christian as if it were smallpox. Vaccinated against the Cross as all Europe was vaccinated against the Hook-Cross. Ask Gus about what would happen in his country if you hoisted the Hakenkreuz in public.

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  57. Jack: Manufacturing is starting to return to north america.

    And that’s a good thing.
    A liberal democracy cannot survive without a strong manufacturing base.
    We here in the states almost learned the hard way by allowing Wall Street to gut it (manufacturing) and ship it offshore.
    Thank God it’s coming back.

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  58. Max: and some of my school teachers were Sunday School teachers

    Many of those teachers took the point that the mostly black students that wanted our high school to drop “Dixie” as a fight song (1970 or so) need to just shut up and go along with the majority who liked the song. (A near quote but it WAS 5 decades ago.)

    I liked the song and wanted to keep it but the comments by my at my church, Cristian teachers at the school took me aback. I changed my mind not too long after that.

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  59. Muff Potter: We here in the states almost learned the hard way by allowing Wall Street to gut it (manufacturing) and ship it offshore.

    Anyone remember Sears, Roebuck, & Co? Commonly called Sears?
    Invented the mail-order business in the 19th Century, the Amazon of its time?
    Had its department stores in every major urban area?
    The WalMart of its day with its mail-order filling in where its stores weren’t?
    Sears appliances, Craftsman tools, warranty repair shops?
    With Sears Tower (their corporate HQ in Chicago) the tallest building in the world?

    Well, in the Eighties they got completely out of the mail-order business and gutted their retail network. Henceforth they would go where the REAL money was — Wall Street Arbitrage, High Finance a la Gordon Gecko (the Crypto of its day). And when the Stock Bubble crashed, they went into a Death Spiral and never recovered. They’d Downsized(TM) ALL their mail order fixed assets – the buildings, the equipment, the inventory, the distribution, the repair customer service, the trained personnel, the entire infrastructure – so there was no going back.

    Sears is still around, but as a shadow of its former self. They lost most everything, including the tallest building in Chicago. I know I haven’t seen a Sears store in my urban area in years, just like K-Mart.

    And around a decade after Searx destroyed their mail-order infrastructure, then came Dot-Com E-Commerce. Online E-shopping, remember?

    What is Amazon but a Mail-Order Business with the ordering and payment all done Online?

    Amazon had to build its distribution infrastructure from scratch.
    Sears already had the entire infrastructure – the distribution network, the customer service, the warranty repair shops – for a century, up and running. ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS MOVE THEIR SEARS CATALOG ONLINE AND ADD ONLINE PAYMENT CAPABILITY! SEARS COULD HAVE MOVED INTO THE 21ST INSTEAD OF AMAZON SPRINGING UP TO TAKE OVER! But they had to follow Gordon Gecko and all the Yuppies into Wall Street and ONLY Wall Street. Like a Pre-Internet Y2K DotCom with NO actual physical assets, only Other People’s Money wheeling and dealing.

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  60. How is this article relevant today? Very few people are Christian nationalists. The unsuitable President is not a Christian nationalist and the vast majority of conservatives are not Christian nationalists. The comment that you are a Christian nationalist if: You think immigrants aren’t as good of Americans as those who were born in the country., is ridiculous. No one believes this, not even true Christian nationalists. A country has a right to defend their borders. Illegal immigration is wrong and hurts this country. Just because I believe this does not mean I view immigrants whether legal or illegal as inferior people. These kinds of comments trivialize complex issues. Nancy claims she was ghosted because she would not support an unsuitable president. So all her family, friends and acquaintances are just gullible idiots that easily fall for unethical and unsavory business men who run for President. She’s above the fray and more intelligent than that! And by the way, the other candidate on the ballot was suitable? So her friends and family are supposed to treat her with kid gloves, and let her bash the unsuitable President and his supporters. While the unsuitable President may have his weaknesses, he exposed and threatened the underbelly of a very corrupt Washington system. He and his supporters have been endlessly vilified and investigated with unsubstantiated allegations ever since. Speaking of clay feet. Irrespective of what his motivations were for doing this, he was the only person of prominence and power that reported Jeffery Epstein to the authorities! He’s has also performed numerous simple kind gestures for little people, without a lot of fanfare. For instance, giving loans to numerous African American businesses that were struggling in the late 80’s and then subsequently forgiving the loans. No one is perfect, but to claim he has feet of clay is a bit much. Everyone, has a lot of assumptions about him, but when you look into the facts, they tell a much different story.

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  61. NC Now,

    I was fortunate enough to grow up in a Midwestern (slightly Southern) town where white Christians got along with African Americans. I counted many black students as friends … we played together, ate together, worked together. I didn’t ghost them and they didn’t ghost me. I don’t remember any racial prejudice in our community, but there were some folks who hated everybody the same.

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  62. Longhorn Fan: A country has a right to defend their borders. Illegal immigration is wrong and hurts this country.

    The key word being “illegal.” I’m old enough to remember the term “illegal aliens” before some politician thought that sounded too outer space and changed it to “illegal immigrants” … then someone else complained that all our ancestors were not officially legal until they were citizens … so they changed it to “undocumented immigrants” … until a politician complained that they couldn’t have documents until they had documents, so changed the term to “dreamers.” At the end of the day, “illegal” still looms over this migration.

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  63. Max: I don’t remember any racial prejudice in our community,

    Great.

    But either hard to believe (and I may very likely be wrong) or your idea of getting along was mistaken (and again I may be very wrong).

    My father lost some friends (many in our church) over the years in the later 60s into the 70s as he was considered liberal on race. Today he would be considered a racist.

    My friends and I did not have considered ourselves racist in high school. But in hindsight we totally were.

    On a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is fully racist and 10 is fully not, we thought by being a 5 or 6 instead of a 2 or 3 we were not racists. We literally couldn’t imagine the numbers 7 to 10 existed.

    To the point. About 10% of my graduating class was black. None of them were in any classes but the basics. No chemistry, physics, trig, etc… And in our band of 100+ students in a school with over 900 students, only 1 black in the 4 years I was there. A freshman my senior year.

    Things started changing as my brother came through 4 years behind me as he was in classes with “them” as many of the adults would say.

    From where I sit, CN, is an outgrowth of the way white folks went from being in charge in government, schools, little league, etc… to being on just one of many.

    People seem wired to want to be above someone (think off all the sports teams chanting “we’re number 1”) and when those below get to move up, some folks get upset.

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  64. “Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle, etc.”

    Americans all over the map on issues of the day. Like Southern Baptists, they just like to fight about something. Reminds me of the Scripture:

    “The assembly was in confusion: Some were shouting one thing, some another. Most of the people did not even know why they were there.” (Acts 19:32)

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  65. NC Now: either hard to believe (and I may very likely be wrong) or your idea of getting along was mistaken (and again I may be very wrong)

    My parents raised their children to believe and live Scriptures like: “Treat others just as you want to be treated” (Luke 6:31).

    They also taught us that we were not to show distinction between race, class or gender (Galatians 3:28).

    I’ve done my best to live that way.

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  66. NC Now: From where I sit, CN, is an outgrowth of the way white folks went from being in charge in government, schools, little league, etc… to being on just one of many.

    People seem wired to want to be above someone (think off all the sports teams chanting “we’re number 1”) and when those below get to move up, some folks get upset.

    Which (when added to the Zero-Sum attitude everybody thinks like nowadays) triggered the Grievance Culture behavior and attitude I have described above.

    My grade school (1960-69) was pretty much all-white. My high school (1969-73) not so much, but the “non-whites” were brown (Hispanic, primarily Mexican). This was due to local demographics; whites-only neighborhoods and sundown town mentality probably had something to do with that, but said influence was indirect, not direct. Blacks were just “off the radar” more than anything else, and by their absence ended up the most popular butt of race jokes at both schools.

    I think I was raised kind of color-blind for the time, but the boundary of What’s Racist has shifted around on your scale of 1 to 10 since then. To the point I find myself “trapped in a world I never made” like Archie Bunker and Howard the Duck, mitigated by my lifetime interest in SF, Fantasy, and their Alien Cultures.

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  67. NC Now: From where I sit, CN, is an outgrowth of the way white folks went from being in charge in government, schools, little league, etc… to being on just one of many.

    People seem wired to want to be above someone (think off all the sports teams chanting “we’re number 1”) and when those below get to move up, some folks get upset.

    The Zero-Sum Mentality is also in play.

    Zero-Sum is the idea that since there is only so much to go around and the only way to get more for ME is to Take It Away From YOU. And the only way for YOU go get more is to Take It Away from ME. No such thing as a Win-Win situation, only Win-Lose and the easiest way to Win is to Make You Lose. You find that attitude throughout history.

    With everybody thinking Win or Lose (including the subject of this thread), can anybody present a Win-Win situation?

    During the Black Lives Matter Phantom Attacker scare (which hit my town bad courtesy of a couple internet trolls), I thought if I ever found myself sitting across from a BLM type, I would describe Zero-Sum to him and have him explain to me how what he’s doing could be a Win-Win situation for both of us instead of the Win-Lose situation everybody’s thinking.

    Oh, and there is something worse than the Zero Sum Game.
    The Spite Game, where Lose-Lose is completely acceptable as long as you Spite the Other.

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  68. Longhorn Fan: Nancy claims she was ghosted because she would not support an unsuitable president. So all her family, friends and acquaintances are just gullible idiots that easily fall for unethical and unsavory business men who run for President. She’s above the fray and more intelligent than that! And by the way, the other candidate on the ballot was suitable? So her friends and family are supposed to treat her with kid gloves, and let her bash the unsuitable President and his supporters.

    Excuse me, but where in the world did you read this? I don’t see Nancy saying this at all. It seems you just filled her mouth with words. Please point me to where she said this if I missed it.

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  69. The problem is the lack of intense research and reading AND the happy acceptance of media by both sides. WCN is a derogatory term that is applied as a sweeping characterization — it’s propaganda. It’s how various people groups throughout history have been marginalized with derogatory labels. I read these comments where everyone’s an expert on what they’ve “seen on TV” or read online. Who composed those images and reports? You don’t actually know the individuals behind those, yet you trust their portrayal of the situation. You are award of social media influencers? It is a lucrative industry — look it up! https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/23/biden-campaign-social-media-influencers-00136389
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/fans-lash-out-at-travis-kelce-after-20-million-dollar-deal-with-pfizer/ar-AA1mfeUo

    This is part of it. We’re influenced to think our opinions are critical on a blog post like this. Maybe they are. Maybe the people you really need to hear from don’t visit this site all that often. I do as part of my read everything and everywhere and think for myself plan. Maybe everybody here thinks January 6th was a riot and potential coup; maybe a few think it was cover for a coup. Read more. Read original documents, listen to entire interviews, find the scientific paper getting fluffed in the online pithy ‘news’ source you’re reading. Talk to people who believe differently from you, ask deep sincere questions, and LISTEN carefully to what they say and watch what they do. Rely on the Holy Spirit (not your biases) for discernment and you will find the truth.
    (BTW, I teach physicians to assess the quality of published medical literature — don’t believe everything you see in print. That’s why retractions . .)

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  70. Is it too late to comment on this? I agree with the criticism of the lists under “you might be a CN if ….” (esp. e.g., one nation being chosen, etc). The difficulty I have is when it comes down to how we are to engage with policy and law-making as Christians. Surely we want to advocate for a society in which murder, stealing, etc, is punished and in which it is okay to encourage a reminder of the one behind the BC/AD (or even BCE/CE!) calendar at Christmas by saying “merry Christmas,” etc. When it comes down to the nuts and bolts, and forgetting whether or not the founding fathers were “evangelical” or not, don’t we all as Christians believe that the ethics of Scripture are healthy and good, and therefore they inform our wishes for the culture around us? Genuine question. Happy to be helped to understand the pros & cons of what is being argued for.

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  71. My wife is from a culture. We’ve experienced a few things over the years. The bank wouldn’t give her access to our joint account because she didn’t look like her married name (and yes she had government id), I get asked if “those are my children” because the kids have mixed heritage, my son was told he couldn’t possibly be of viking descent by his teacher because he looks Asian, and if you ever want to make an enemy, just ask my wife if she’s a mail order bride (yep, people went there).

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  72. Tina,

    We have had people leave our church because the pastor was not “doing his job” to inform the congregation about all the “shenanigan’s” being pulled by liberals.

    Of course, in their eyes, the only correct information could come from Alex Jones and other sources even more far right than he is.

    Although, to be fair, if our church took a long hard left turn and became kooky woke focused or a long hard right turn and became kooky conspiracy focused we would probably have to leave . . . .

    “Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right”
    I feel stuck.

    But, of course, there is nothing at all odd about me and my beliefs since I am, in my mind, the final arbiter of all that is correct.

    Just the same, it is maddening and saddening.

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  73. Afterburne,

    “because the pastor was not “doing his job” to inform the congregation about all the “shenanigan’s” being pulled by liberals.

    Of course, in their eyes, the only correct information could come from Alex Jones”
    +++++++++++++++

    that seems pretty hard right to me.

    and devoid of what is reasonable and sensible.

    it’s intensely disappointing that this clocks at merely having a conservative bent.

    the conservative perspective needs the liberal perspective, and vice versa.

    if by some science fiction phenomenon the influence of the liberal perspective vanished, conservative people would not like it.

    many things they appreciate about living life in the world would deteriorate into a shambles.

    (and vice versa)

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  74. Bridget: Excuse me, but where in the world did you read this? I don’t see Nancy saying this at all. It seems you just filled her mouth with words. Please point me to where she said this if I missed it.

    I’m getting a vibe from Longhorn Fans that resembles the Defender of the Faith troll comments defending a ManaGAWD that gets exposed on this or other blogs. Like the political version of that.

    First, his entire comment is one long paragraph. This appearance immediately hurts his presentation, as such run-on singl- paragraph postings are also characteristic of kook rants. (Or the John Galt Speech chapter at the end of Atlas Shrugged.) At the very least, the one solid mass makes it harder to read.

    The first half is rapid-fire accusations against Nancy in the manner of a Gish Gallop, followed by a second half with the following talking points in the same quick succession:

    1) “…he exposed and threatened the underbelly of a very corrupt Washington system.”
    2) “He and his supporters have been endlessly vilified and investigated with unsubstantiated allegations ever since.”
    3) “Irrespective of what his motivations were for doing this, he was the only person of prominence and power that reported Jeffery Epstein to the authorities!”
    4) “He’s has also performed numerous simple kind gestures for little people, without a lot of fanfare. For instance, giving loans to numerous African American businesses that were struggling in the late 80’s and then subsequently forgiving the loans.”
    5) “…but to claim he has feet of clay is a bit much.”
    6) ” Everyone, has a lot of assumptions about him, but when you look into the facts, they tell a much different story.”

    Of these quick successsion:
    1) The “Drain the Swamp” claim.
    2) The Persecution of the Great Man card; I heard this a lot from my SIL regarding the whole HydroxychloroOAnon mess during COVID (she was extremely Pro HCQ, with all the accompanying Conspiracy baggage).
    3) This is a claim I have only heard once before, and that was from a True Beleiver fanboy trying to Witness(TM) to me. Can anyone trace or confirm this?
    4) Again, can anyone trace or confirm this claim?
    5) Bridge statement between (4) & (6).
    6) These days when somebody spouts Facts(TM) rapid-fire, I have to ask “Whose Facts?” We have been receiving two completely contradictory TRVTHs about anything involved with the guy, and there’s distinct smell of Propaganda. In the word of MC 900ft Jesus’s best-known rap, “Truth. Is. Out of Style.”

    The general impression I come away with is that of a Fanboy whose idol has been blasphemed instead of praised and adored, a Defender of the Faith, or a political Truth Squad hitting the talking points. (From 2015 to 2021, Wondering Eagle had a regular troll who was like that, and nasty to boot.) Again, every church corruption whistleblower blogger has seen a similar dynamic in action in the Christian realm.

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  75. Max: The key word being “illegal.” I’m old enough to remember the term “illegal aliens” before some politician thought that sounded too outer space and changed it to “illegal immigrants”

    As an ex-pat in South Korea many years ago, my Korean ID listed me as a “registered alien.” I was pretty bummed when I had to surrender it at immigration services when I left.

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  76. NC Now,

    In 1971, this is almost exactly what happened at a high school near me. Their name was Dixie Hollins; the school was named after a male school superintendent. But when you have Dixie in your name …

    My county desegregated public schools in 1971 through forced busing. When Black students said they were uncomfortable with the Rebel flag and the principal sided with them, forbidding the Rebel flag on school property, all heck broke loose. There were riots on campus for almost a full week.

    It wasn’t until just a few years ago that the school rebranded as Hollins High and are now known as the Royals.

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  77. Tina: I’m even having to tiptoe around my husband because we’re not seeing eye to eye politically these days and that also hurts.

    A broom is drearily sweeping
    Up the broken pieces
    Of yesterday’s life
    Somewhere, a queen is weeping
    Somewhere
    A king has no wife
    And the wind, it cries
    “Mary”

    — James Marshall Hendrix 1967 —

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  78. Modern nationalism is a response to increasing globalization, and it is happening in a number of countries now. In the U.S., there is an ongoing debate between white nationalists and Christian nationalists. The whole situation is in flux, and it is not very amenable to definitive characterizations.

    Many news articles I’ve read about American far-right politics contain substantial errors.

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  79. Jack: Apathy is the enemy of democracy.

    And these Christians are showing over and over that they LOVE dictatorships.
    As long as they are CHRISTIAN Dictatorships.
    “HE SHALL RULE THEM (NOT US!) WITH A ROD OF IRON! AND HIS KINGDOM SHALL HAVE NO END!”

    Remember the Millenial Kingdom in Left Behind: Volume 13, where the two Author Self-Inserts junket around the New Earth throwing their weight around as God’s Enforcers, lording it over the surviving mortals.

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  80. Dr J: You don’t actually know the individuals behind those, yet you trust their portrayal of the situation.

    Sorry. I KNOW these people. Some are (well were) close relatives. I’m too dumb to have a valid opinion due to my lack of agreement so they have ghosted me. With prejudice. I don’t believe in some of the nonsense so I’m just wrong. And my wife’s family experiences in 30s and 40s Germany don’t count. They know the TRUE history of Germany at that time.

    Not all of us come to this conversation by watching the cable news between 7pm and 11pm EST.

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  81. Afterburne: We have had people leave our church because the pastor was not “doing his job” to inform the congregation about all the “shenanigan’s” being pulled by liberals.

    Russell Moore, Chritianity Today’s Editor-in-Chief, has, on one of his you tube videos, talked about pastors getting chewed out by parishioners after a sermon based on something like “Sermon on the Mount”. They want to know why he’s preaching on such liberal nonsense. And if it was by Jesus, well that dog don’t hunt any more.

    Big sigh.

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  82. Max: They also taught us that we were not to show distinction between race, class or gender

    In general so was I.

    But we were swimming in a pool full of subtle discrimination. Let form a coop and build a community pool. It was decades later that I realized this started just after the local public pool desegregated.

    Look at this new school to address the short comings of the local public schools. Sooooo many of them started after desegregation came to an area.

    I wasn’t paying attention at the time but now I realize there were no doctors, dentists, school board members, restaurant owners, etc… that we saw that were not white.

    My point is the absence of active discrimination doesn’t mean people are not racists.

    Swinging this back to CN. It gets messy. At the end of the day the WN’s and CN’s have a lot of overlap. And have made peace (temporary I think) with Catholics, LDS, etc. But like the SBC conservative resurgence, I suspect the narrowing of the field will never stop.

    And while Dee doesn’t want this to devolve into politics, I don’t see how going any deeper in the conversations can happen without doing so.

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  83. NC Now: I wasn’t paying attention at the time but now I realize there were no doctors, dentists, school board members, restaurant owners, etc… that we saw that were not white.

    My point is the absence of active discrimination doesn’t mean people are not racists.

    In addition to the vile, foaming-at-the-mouth racism that’s easy to recognise there is often a lot of unconscious, under-the-surface cultural prejudice that needs to be unlearned. In my country, it has been mostly antisemitism, in yours, it’s anti-black.

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  84. John,

    “When it comes down to the nuts and bolts, and forgetting whether or not the founding fathers were “evangelical” or not, don’t we all as Christians believe that the ethics of Scripture are healthy and good, and therefore they inform our wishes for the culture around us?”
    +++++++++++

    well, who’s interpreting it?

    one of the main reasons I no longer attend is because of the cruelty of beliefs & behavior, as informed by scripture (how it’s interpreted, that is).

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  85. NC Now: Let form a coop and build a community pool. It was decades later that I realized this started just after the local public pool desegregated.

    Whites Only Private Community Pool.

    Look at this new school to address the short comings of the local public schools. Sooooo many of them started after desegregation came to an area.

    Whites Only Christian School.

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  86. elastigirl: the conservative perspective needs the liberal perspective, and vice versa.

    True, that.

    With one caveat, that I would like to add as an outsider, as someone who is not American: most of what passes for “conservative” in US politics or church politics bears not even the tiniest resemblance to what “conservative” used to mean. And don’t even get me started on all the crazy! Nobody needs that, because there is no serious conversation and no bona-fide compromise possible with that. (Not that the reactionaries posing as “conservatives” these days even want serious conversations or bona-fide compromise.)

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  87. Gus,

    no disagreement.

    i kept it at ‘conservative perspective’ because to me that implies an open mind able to see what is valid and reasonable wherever it lands on the horizontal scale.

    my parents and their peers were this way. they registered with a political party, but often voted contrary to the party line.

    it was normal.

    nobody freaked out.

    criminy,…

    i’m having trouble finding the words to describe what’s it like observing people who used to be reasonable become freaks.

    it’s like they’ve been baptized and born again into freakdom. a tranformation (or transmogrification, really — it’s all sort of science fictiony), complete with righteous fervor.

    like invasion of the body snatchers.

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  88. elastigirl,

    my silly religion is full of scaredycat freaks.

    have a different perspective (or different way of praying or doing anything) even by degrees and it’s like they get spooked, & make the sign of the cross with 2 fingers and slowly start backing away from you,

    fixing their eyes on you as if you’re going to spring on them.

    good grief.

    (it’s like a cold war of brainwashing…)

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  89. Gus: most of what passes for “conservative” in US politics or church politics bears not even the tiniest resemblance to what “conservative” used to mean

    AMEN! That indeed goes for ministers/ministries who call themselves “conservative.” That word really means mean-spirited fundamentalism in many churches. And, of course, we have SBC’s “Conservative” Resurgence, which has proven to be a “Calvinism” Resurgence. It’s all how you spin the word.

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  90. Dr J,

    What??? You actually believe the entire universe does not revolve around TWW?…. GASP!
    Not only that, you can read our minds, too!

    I a white female who attended and all white elementary school (‘70-‘78) and I still live in a predominately white, rural, evangelical area. In my county, we have never had a sheriff, a police officer, a judge, a lawyer, a doctor….who was not white. I did not have a teacher who was not white until I went to college.

    Hispanics started drifting into the area on visas about 20 years ago to work, and there is one Asian woman who lives about 5 miles from me. Wanna see a house that a black family lives in? Get in the car and drive 9 miles – oh, and drive south…. if you head north, it’s more like 40 miles (east-20, west-25)
    Believe me, I have seen racism and WCN (through a white, evangelical lens), all of my life (as well as male superiority) up close and personal, at least on a local level. Now, it just has a name.

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  91. Jack: I get asked if “those are my children” because the kids have mixed heritage, my son was told he couldn’t possibly be of viking descent by his teacher because he looks Asian, and if you ever want to make an enemy, just ask my wife if she’s a mail order bride (yep, people went there).

    I’m with you Jack.
    These kinds of things really gall me too.
    Why do some people hafta’ make careers outta’ being a$$holes?

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  92. Gus: (Not that the reactionaries posing as “conservatives” these days even want serious conversations or bona-fide compromise.)

    No, they do not, and they DO NOT want a democracy.
    My third grade Teacher’s (Miss Feiker) parents left Germany in 1936 and settled in South Eastern Wisconsin. They knew what was coming and they knew it would be the end of all that was good in German society.

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  93. Darn. I thought I was the center of all that is good and beautiful. It’s a sad day to learn that I’m not.

    dee,
    Well, dee. You are good, and you are beautiful, inside and out…….. but sometimes I have to make some really heartbreaking decisions involving prioritizing. I had a dr. appt. today, but, hey, I got back to TWW as fast as I could – it’s such a good place to be! 😉

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  94. elastigirl,

    I’m thinking of basic examples like laws against murder & stealing, etc, and just punishments for crimes, etc. We want to encourage involvement in the political process because as Christians we believe that what God has revealed is good. It would be a shame if the CN discussion ended up discouraging Christians from advocating in the political world.

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  95. Peggy: Many news articles I’ve read about American … politics contain substantial errors

    Easy picking: fight on the same ground (material dialectic) wherever that might appear to be at any moment (shifting goalposts). Trouble is it doesn’t get ordinary people anywhere or maybe that was the whole idea in the pretend “rival” factions (identicartels) hogging power and counter power over media?

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  96. elastigirl: (good grief, i never knew this verse was there)

    There’s something in the Bible for everything/everybody!

    There’s even a verse for folks who comment on contentious blog topics:

    “Some were shouting one thing and others something else, because the assembly was in complete confusion, and the great majority didn’t even know why they were there.” (Acts 19:32)

    🙂

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  97. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
    Your life in your community is yours and where God set you. I was fortunate to grow up and live elsewhere in a diverse society — His blessing. I don’t think my comment touched on racism. The focus was critical thinking with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I can’t read minds and I can’t understand herd mentality.

    I despise garbage bag terms like WCN — throw anyone you want to in the bag and you don’t have to look at them anymore. Everyone has a story — talk to people and listen. I think the use of the term WCN is a cop-out for those who pride themselves on their superior choices: “God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector”. It’s same as it ever was, Pharisees labeling the Other just with new names ala white Christian nationalist.

    MOD: It looks like you’ve made a typo in the email of one of your two comments. Send an email to me and I’ll fix it. Looks like a typo. But as an FYI we strongly prefer people not use multiple email addresses.

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  98. Max: “The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.” (Ecclesiastes 10:2)

    This is one where I’d like to know the translation history going back to ancient Greek and how Jewish translations handle it now.

    Societies around the world have made being left handed an evil thing to be fixed for centuries. I have to feel this refers to this kind of thought vs our current political debates.

    But I’m sure a huge number of pastors and congregants take it as a litmus test on modern politics.

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  99. Tina: Yes, that one. When then-GA governor Roy Barnes decided that the Starry Cross would be taken off the GA state flag, you should have HEARD the screaming from certain people!

    And after a flag fiasco that got on South Park, they ended up with an 1861-pattern Stars & Bars with the State Seal added to the canton. Ending up with a flag just as Confederate as the old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3UUS1kx5oE

    I would have gone back to the pre-Starry Cross flag, which used a red-white-red horizontal tricolor instead of the Starry Cross.

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  100. There’s also sometbing we have seen in the aftermath of the Roe v Wade overturn, where CHRISTIAN states like Texas and Florida are passing a flurry of new laws to outlaw abortion. (Including “Let Bubba Do It” Bounty Hunters in the CHRISTIAN State of Texas.)

    ALL THESE LAWS ARE TARGETED AT THE END STAGE OF THE ABORTION ITSELF. NONE AT REDUCING THE DEMAND HIGHER UP THE STREAM. ALL PUNISH THOSE WH*RES! PUNISH THOSE SINNERS! PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH! PUNISH!

    Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God by Proxy.

    Like Minister Shcherbina threatening to throw Academician Legasov out of the helicopter in that scene from Chernobyl, they can think of no other way to motivate than Threatening Punishment. Like the Fasces – axe for beheading wrapped in vine rods for beating – showed the POWER of the Roman State.

    So is God glorified – OR ELSE!

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  101. One reason left or left handed became associated with being unclean is that in some societies that don’t have our first world amenities like toilet paper, the left hand and some water is used to cleanse oneself. So you never offer the left hand to shake hands, never eat with or touch another with the left hand.

    And may I add, absolute power plus utter righteousness plus total stupidity is not only dark but dangerous. Just got out of a conversation with a person who desires we elect a “strong man” aka dictator type next time and figures we need to elect that party due to his “godliness” AND is absolutely convinced mrna shots or any other vaccine are letting Bill Gates put chips in peoples brains.

    I am beginning to think covid brain is a real thing. I’ve already witnessed first hand pot brain when we lived in Colorado. Put brains on drugs damaged by a disease in power or the voting booth or at the helm of a church and all hell celebrates.

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  102. I’ve been ghosted by both sides. On one side by my church and friends when I challenged the incessant political rhetoric during church services and cautioned against the knee-jerk reaction to endorsing a certain political candidate without reservation. On the other side by other Christian friends and family for reluctantly endorsing said political candidate. It was painful.

    But to a few of your points in your commentary: It was less Tip O’Neil and Reagan getting along than O’Neil and Bob Dole and others. GOP leaders were content with the status quo – democrats had retained control of the house for decades. So when you are resigned to losing and your differences are mostly about rounding errors in the federal budget of course you can go out for dinner in the evening.

    It seems to me there is a disconnect between how each side self-defines.
    >> Christian nationalists do not reject the First Amendment and do not advocate for theocracy, but they do believe that Christianity should enjoy a privileged position in the public square

    everything hinges on “privileged” – it seems that’s a loaded term that may not be entirely accurate. For example, Douglas Wilson is often lumped in with Christian Nationalism and yet his simple definition is thus:

    “Rather than the religious right’s golden calf, Christian nationalism is the idea that people in the same place and culture should live together and seek one another’s good. The grace of the gospel does not eliminate our geography, our people, and our neighbors. Instead, it restores us to pursue local needs and local leadership freely and without apology.”

    The sticky part is in the details. He follows Francis Shaeffer’s logic: politics is not a morally neutral category. Either there is a God above the state or the state is God. And if there is a God above the state there is either a false god or a true god. Advocating (and advocating fiercly) for your position is not a morally negative category.

    But even Wilson has flat out said that bilboards which equated Trump with “unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulders” should be grounds for excommunication.

    And therein lies the problem. Christian nationalism is turning into a boogeyman. A wide-enough label to ensnare almost everyone by mere connotation but upon closer examination applies to a small cohort (hopefully). But hey – i live in the PNW so maybe I’m simply not exposed to excesses in other parts of the country.

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  103. linda: AND is absolutely convinced mrna shots or any other vaccine are letting Bill Gates put chips in peoples brains.

    When people / relatives started positing this I did some research. About the size of the needles used in COVID and other vaccines, smallest RFID chips one could buy, how the vaccine was being distributed, etc. And, well, it just can’t be done.

    Vaccine is distributed in multi dose vials so the site where you get the vaccine is splitting each does into 5 or 6. So the chips couldn’t be in the distribution. Or there would have to be a few 100 to 1000s to make sure they got into each shot. But creating unique RFDI chips means everyone would get a few 100 to a few 100 IDs. And just who is keeping these records?

    The size of the needles is such that you couldn’t get the chips down the needle. Unless there is a secret factory turning out RFID chips smaller than anyone else on the planet. In the billions. (And keeping it a secret.)

    Of course if you could get small enough chips. (And more than a few could sit on the TIP of a sewing pin.) Then the pharma tech is going to put these individually into a shot and track the numbers. In 1000s of locations around the country and keep it a secret?

    And so on…

    But then again, facts never do get in the way of a nice conspiracy theory.

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  104. linda: Just got out of a conversation with a person who desires we elect a “strong man” aka dictator type next time and figures we need to elect that party due to his “godliness”…

    Electing The REAL Second Coming of Christ (guess who) to crush the Beast and his Cabal in the Armageddon of The Storm.
    (Ad I’m not exaggerating that.)

    Historically there have been TWO archetypes of The Antichrist: The Fanatic Persecutor and The Slick Deceiver. And in fleeing from the Fanatic Persecutor you seek refuge with (and embrace) of the Slick Deceiver.

    Today, all you hear about is the Fanatic Persecutor; the Slick Deceiver has been completely forgotten/ignored. Guess with a lot of these MenaGAWD the Slick Deceiver hits a little too close to home.

    … AND is absolutely convinced mrna shots or any other vaccine are letting Bill Gates put chips in peoples brains.

    You forgot about how The Jab (the Deep State Cabal Kill Shot) rewrites your DNA and turns you into a Nephilim, forever banned from Salvation.

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  105. NC Now: The size of the needles is such that you couldn’t get the chips down the needle. Unless there is a secret factory turning out RFID chips smaller than anyone else on the planet. In the billions. (And keeping it a secret.)

    “If your Conspiracy Theory doesn’t fit the facts, Invent a Bigger Conspiracy.”
    Kooks Magazine

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  106. Bryan: The sticky part is in the details.

    Just like the French Revolution after they chopped the King:
    The Hebertists denounce & behead all the Royalists (real and imagined).
    The Dantonists denounce & behead all the Hebertists.
    The Jacobins denounce & behead all the Dantonists.
    The Thermidorians denounce & behead all the Jacobins.
    (At that point, Le Terreur burns itself out.)

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  107. NC Now: Societies around the world have made being left handed an evil thing to be fixed for centuries.

    Still a reside of that in the 20th.

    I am strongly left-handed. I vaguely remember my mother may also have been, but she grew up in the 1930s and the schools of the time forced her to write right-handed. By cracking her left hand with a ruler every time she used it. (Both Parochial and Public Schools did that, so it wasn’t necessarily “The Nun with a Black Belt in Ruler.”)

    And I remember Guns & Ammo and Soldier of Fortune magazines in the Cal Poly bookstore racks (1975-1978), both of which were obsessed with “In The Good Old Days, they would have been taught to shoot right-handed but that causes psychological trauma in the recruits of Today.” i.e Alpha Males (Including Rugged Communist Supermen) shoot Right Handed, Beta Cuck Sissies (including Spoiled-Rotten Milquetoast Americans) shoot Left Handed. (Gunpowder Jock All The Way.)

    On a lighter note, many years ago at a “Southpaw Shop” in San Diego I bought a left-handed pair of scissors (the right-handed ones wreck out my scissors hand). Whenever someone right-handed needed scissors, I’d hand them mine and watch the fun.

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  108. Bryan: But even Wilson has flat out said that bilboards which equated Trump with “unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulders” should be grounds for excommunication.

    How about the other famous billboard that made it into Snopes:
    “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”?

    And Pat Robertson’s alleged Vision of being caught up into Heaven to be shown Trump seated at the right hand of God?

    Or that book that surfaced several months ago, Donald J Trump – The Son of Man – The Christ?
    Now THAT’s Blatant…

    Or those Prophecy books by that Firefighter-turned-Prophet which pretty much say the same thing?

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  109. NC Now: Why does it matter?

    Because the Starry Cross is THE Go-To Confederate Flag used by white supremacists (like the Florida Man photographed in the Capitol on 1/6); the Stars & Bars is the LEAST likely to be used.

    Hobby Day at the Knights of Columbus Hall is a local meetup point for miniatures wargamers, including the Civil War. I’ve gotten pairs flags to hang up on the walls over the gaming table, including a 36-star Union flag and the Stars & Bards for Civil War games. I chose the Stars & Bars for the above reason.

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  110. Bryan,

    This is one of the many exceedingly strong reasons why Francis Schaeffer is way off beam, not christian at all. He is out and out materialist and together with Falwell Snr and the popes has ruined the world along a backdrop of watered down Stott / Nouwen et al. I knew his books were bad when I read them in my teens. People who claim to look up to him are a giveaway.

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  111. Dr J,

    I think Dee’s throwing in the word “(white)” devalues the thread topic because all the “reasonable” extremists plausibly deny being part of it. It is “reasonable” to hold dominionism and gender theology and cancel Holy Spirit. Pope Pius overburdened America’s Manifest Destiny in 1946 and Bentley and Wagner inaugurated world dominionism in 2008. There is no male or female in the kingdom of God (Prov 21: 10-31); I have tried daily to share about the kingdom of God on Dee’s blog; male AND female He created them, in other words acting together, not asunder as Grudem’s reprints have it.

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  112. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    I said to myself from my distant vantage point in 2015: it sounds as if the tangerine man is working for the other side.

    A few of his policies are slightly better, I gather. But the general thrust of the wider enterprise is to discredit.

    Just as the contrived wokism discredits real intersectionality (my meaning and the image of God are intersectional).

    I saw clips of a wardance in a government building from 6 1 21. Staff who hadn’t been given an advance tip-off lost their lives.

    One side is content with the electoral college when they win, and call for “a halt to counting of electoral votes” another time. The reality is that elections are always stolen by the electoral college. Add to that the presence of voting machines to create an unreliable atmosphere.

    On all sorts of forums and blogs since about 2008, I have repeatedly many times called for the abolition or drastic reform of the electoral college and drastic reforms to all primaries.

    There also needs to be legislation (that will stick) on counting. Are Americans good at “math”? And on provision of voting places and times, and who is allowed to handle advance voting (here it was the Royal Mail up to now). And to discourage gerrymandering which horrifyingly has increased here.

    Hoping the pugs pass this because at pug level they wouldn’t know what I’m talking about 😉

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  113. linda: I’ve already witnessed first hand pot brain when we lived in Colorado. Put brains on drugs damaged by a disease in power or the voting booth or at the helm of a church and all hell celebrates.

    We’ve seen this in the UK with the cushioned families who go on holiday while they hand Afghanistan over to their allies the Taliban. Atheistic dominionism is not pretty. You’ve read partial accounts of a few issues, but I predict that things that are already announced in the wider world where we are townies and not self reliant will catch up with squirrel dumpling munching districts in 60 years maximum. (An Australian masters’ level researcher wasn’t told she was working for unspecified specified commerce and left when she discovered it. The Fijitsu computer firm boss doesn’t read Computer Weekly which got to the bottom of his company’s derelictions 10 years before he left office not reading it. Except in Scotland which was slipshod and craven, prosecutions don’t require a prosecutor, representation etc.) In many countries it’s not longer safe to discuss issues openly. And don’t underestimate the possible evolution of technology, and the extravagant diversionary propaganda its owners emit. In my young day corner newsagents sold to children objective explanations of technology. The Religious Wrong (who wear a “nice” face here) and the antihumanists alike stand for intrusion (the bad side of puritanism / jesuitry) and the crushing of all wealth.

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  114. NC Now:
    Headless Unicorn Guy,
    Harking back to the passive racism of my youth.

    How can almost any “pride” emblem from the Confederate States not be offensive to those descended from the enslaved? Outside of history classes and similar.

    Other pairs of flags in my repertoire include:
    British White Ensign & German Imperial Naval Ensign for WW1 naval.
    American 48-star flag & Japanese Naval Ensign for WW2 in the Pacific.
    Briitsh Union Jack (England/Scotland) & French Tricolor for Napoleonics.
    (Going to acquire a Grand Union Flag or 13-star American for next time someone does Bunker Hill, Trenton, or Brooklyn Heights…)
    I don’t know what I’m going to do when it comes to WW2 European Theater; any alternative I can think of either breaks history or gets me in a lot of trouble…

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  115. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBzlRIpw8xI

    12 YO Escapes Death Cult Minutes Before Massacre | The Case of Tracy Parks
    Unseen
    725K subscribers
    3.9M views 7 months ago

    approx 25 min vewing. Very difficult viewing.

    Ever since Falwell Senior’s fake body theology and gender theology, religion bosses no longer have to confiscate passports, or point guns at their own.

    I remember the upbeat reception committees that my movements would mount for “scrutiny”, these were composed of those of us who had not settled into jaundiced knowing yet.

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  116. Michael in UK,

    Jones wasn’t paranoid. His calculated cultivating of Carter-Vance gifted the other side with a pretext to cosy up to nominally more straight laced religion variants. The heritors of Carter’s party pretend to be the nearest the US gets to agnostic. Parallel pincer movements in concert.

    I was in several iterations of the UK fringes of this. A material view of private organs, moralising, bossiness, a too hazy idea of the charismatic, a too hazy idea of public good. Excellent marketing. Low calibre secular oragnisational results and almost no-one notices that, but social strife and personal anguish of millions of young are normalised.

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