On Oct. 14, 2023, an annular, or “ring of fire,” solar eclipse passed over parts of North, Central, and South America. NASA
Update: My mother continues to decline despite the fantastic efforts of the therapists. I do not expect her to survive much longer. She refuses to eat except for some ice cream and pudding. She takes small sips of ice water and juice. My son is getting married one week from today, thankfully in the Raleigh area. We will host the rehearsal dinner next Sunday. Joy and sorrow happening at the same time. I will do my best to keep up with posts. I am behind in commitments to some to write their stories, for which I am sorry. Thank you for your kind expressions of prayer and support.
There is an understanding among the Calvinistas that it is best to get rid of everyone in the church that don’t march lockstep with the theology du jour. Years ago, I read that one leader of these theodudes said it would be best if the church shrank to two people since they agreed on how the church should be run. The church would be “pure” when the riff-raff gets off the bus. I have watched as this system of understanding is applied in painful ways, causing many to sour on belonging to churches. Many of these theodudes have a childlike intolerance for thoughtful adults who ask questions or express hesitation about the unjust application of church discipline.
There is little question that the SBC is now controlled by those who prefer autocratic control. Mark Wingfield at Baptist News Global wrote the aptly title Picking Up the Pieces of the SBC. It appears that Wingfield agrees with my thoughts surrounding the Calvinista ascendency in the SBC.
One of the most common questions I’ve been asked over the past week is why SBC leaders would take such an off-putting stance on women when they know it will drive more people away from the church — when numbers already are declining.
My answer is simple: Because they do not care.
Does the “theology of election” contribute to this blasé approach to the declining numbers in the SBC?
They do not care because the theology driving the far right of the SBC today is Calvinism. Calvinism teaches that God has preordained who will be saved and who will be damned, and all the “elect” will be saved by God’s irresistible grace anyway. The only reason missionaries are needed is to round up the elect, which apparently an omnipotent God needs some help with.
Could it be that these leaders in the SBC think those who have questions are not saved, so it is good to cut them loose? Quite possibly. One only needs to look at the Reformed theologians who became Catholic. Whispers on the street included derogatory comments such as “He wasn’t really saved” or “I always knew there was something “off” about him.
In the confirmation classes in my LCMS church, the kids are taught that Baptists, nondenominational churchgoers, Catholics, Presbyterians, etc., are all Christians. Lutherans disagree with them on matters such as communion and the sacraments. Not so for the hardcore SBC Calvinistas. Now, entire churches will be given the left boot of fellowship since they do not march to the prominent clarion call of “my way or the highway.” As I look into the future, there will be more. First, it’s the problem with women pastors. I wonder what will come next. Sex abuse has undoubtedly taken a back seat. The SBC would rather have a pedophile male pastor than a godly woman pastor.
How many churches with women pastors will be kicked out of the SBC?
Marv Knox wrote If you bet on how many churches the SBC will kick out, take the ‘under’ for Baptist News Global. The latest mantra for the Calvinist leaders of the SBC is “women can’t be called pastors.”
The SBC’s recent move to clarify the term “pastor” and to restrict convention membership to churches that employ only men for positions described by that word extends its never-ceasing quest for purity.
It was assumed that the faithful knew only men could be pastors, especially the senior pastor. Twenty years ago, most Baptist churches had only one pastor, and it was a male pastor. As churches grew (back when churches were growing), titles were given to all the others working there. “Worship Leader” and “Director of Women’s Ministries” are a couple of usual titles. Then things changed. The “Director” became “Minister,” and then the “Minister” eventually became “Pastor.” Marv noted that title inflation became rampant.
Think of this as title inflation — changing what an employee is called to a more important-sounding title. It’s not exclusively an ecclesiastical phenomenon. You may not know any secretaries and janitors anymore, but you probably have friends who are executive assistants and maintenance engineers.
Literalism is the key.
Literalism is a pillar value for people who have decided to stay in the convention. They fought over biblical literalism and won. They support judges who claim to be literalists. Words in their dictionary mean what they say, with no room for nuance.
So, if the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message says women can’t be pastors, and churches hire women to be any kind of pastor, then those churches have got to go.
But they probably won’t.
The churches with women pastors will probably cave and say, “Whoops, we didn’t mean it.” So they will do what everyone knows what they will do.
That’s why most women in the SBC called “pastor of ________” today will be called “minister of _________” this time next year. By then, the SBC won’t have all that many churches to kick out because they won’t be able to find them.
There are few churches with Rick Warren, who courageously stood his ground.
That’s because churches that have stuck with the SBC the past 30 years want to be there. They may have followed a title trend and started calling women on their staff “pastor of such-and-such.” But they don’t mean it — at least not enough to get kicked out of their beloved SBC over a staff member’s title.
Will the former women who were named “pastors” easily switch to being called “minister” or “director?” And then what?
I expect people to be upset with my answer. These women will do so in a heartbeat to keep the jobs or positions they love. How will they justify this deep down in their souls? Were they ever pastors? Will they claim their experience as former pastors on Linked In? Did they actually think they were pastors? If so, what part of their job description changed when they became directors?
The dirty little secret for the women who are in this situation.
Their jobs will not change. They will do the same things they did when they were called pastors. It’s a name game.
What will happen when this inevitable action is taken throughout the SBC?
- More people will leave, which will not matter to the literalist leaders.
- The SBC will throw its attention and money towards assimilating individual, small churches into megachurches. Resistance is futile. Disagree, and your church might be booted for not following the program.
- Most nondenominational churches will join forces with the SBC while hiding their affiliation in order not to scare away new members. Running mission programs and retirement funds as a single, lonely church is difficult.
- Many women will do what Beth Moore did. Join liturgical churches (Anglican, Lutheran, etc.) These churches do an excellent job at keeping the main thing the main thing.
- The theodudes don’t give a hoot that the US will see declining numbers in conservative churches. Remember, if only two are left, the church will survive.
- What if the churches that survive are not the ones run by theodudes?
Final question: What is cooperation?
Does your church associate with other churches outside of their wheelhouse? My church participates in a weekend lunch bag program with a Catholic church. They take a certain number of weekends, and so does my church. I still remember some folks in Dallas who had “proof” that the Roman Catholic Church’s pope would be the anti-Christ. How many in the SBC hold similar views?
Dee, I am so sorry to hear about your mom. You really do have joy and sorrow happening at the same time.
Does anyone else think that the current female “pastors” may experience a reduction in salary when they become a “minister” or “director?” Or perhaps be offered less in a new position? This situation just feels ripe for gendered pay levels for the same/similar work.
Praying for you and your mom Dee.
SBC is done … it just hasn’t quit yet. Church history will record that the New Calvinists finished it off … a once-great evangelistic organization, with a worldwide mission outreach is no more.
Based on the close relationship you appear to have with your mother, she raised you well and I imagine she has been very proud of you for the sacrificial work you have done for others. She seems to be choosing her ‘end of life’ decisions. A bittersweet time for your whole family. Prayers….
Praying for you and your family, Dee.
I’m onboard for you and your family too dee.
Family first, Dee.
Dee, so sorry to hear about your mother’s struggle. This is a tough time for everyone in your family.
We were lucky enough to be in Navajo country last week around the time of the eclipse, which we saw from Farmington. I got a few nice photos with my cell phone.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/cPtAiwBAxrP1r5H96
Thought of you and your husband’s time serving the Navajo people. Going back there feels like coming home.
“Could it be that these leaders in the SBC think those who have questions are not saved, so it is good to cut them loose? Quite possibly.”
Hmmm… This would explain quite a lot. Thanks. I’ll ponder this a bit.
Has anyone noticed that those who believe most strongly in “unconditional election” also believe just as confidently that they themselves are among the elect?
Ted,
I agree…
Share all the other encouraging words for Dee..
Dee, I’m so sorry about your mother. I pray that these next few days are precious ones both with her and with your son, and that tears of sadness and joy can co-exist.
I thought this was so poignant and sad and true:
“The dirty little secret for the women who are in this situation.
Their jobs will not change. They will do the same things they did when they were called pastors. It’s a name game.”
Yep. It’s just about pretending to still put women in their place. That’s all it’s ever been about.
Dee,
The Lord bless you and keep you,
The Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
They have an equally strong belief in “limited atonement” and that they are among the limited. While Scripture is clear that God’s love is not limited … He is not willing that any should perish … whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. God is still in the electing business for those who put their trust in Him, not the theologies of mere men.
Loren Haas,
Used to live just outside of Farmington. Thanks for your reply/post. Sure brought back memories!
Praying for you and your family, Dee!
And as to the SBC, or any other group: sometimes God decides it is time for an organization, a country, or a culture or religious group to exit the stage. (Think AD 70 and the whole temple system of Judaism.)
When that happens He can allow, cause, orchestrate, use the natural actions of humans, whatever, but His will WILL be done!
I suspect many church organizations, such as the SBC, are facing their time to exit. It is ok. We worship Christ, not any group.
To “the leaders behind the curtain in SBC” (= New Calvinists), it’s all about control of female believers in every compartment of life through manipulation, intimidation, and domination. They call their ugly belief and practice “the beauty of complementarity.” If they don’t get their way about the title change, the theodudes will scream like women. 🙂
Max,
If a wife is not submissive and obedient to her husband, she surely must not be saved (or one of the “elect”).
God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit …. none of them…. have any place in the live of females, married ones in particular. Their is no Comforter for married women, unless you count the sinful mortal men who rule over them, and that’s no comfort.
As far as the Neo-Cal intrusion and the man-made wall between God and women…… I had already had enough of that the last Sunday of February, 2016. I walked out and haven’t been back. That was way before the “sex abuse was exposed and all of the current mess happened.
Yep. It’s just about pretending to still put women in their place. That’s all it’s ever been about.
Sheila Wray Gregoire,
I think women should just walk out.
Let them replace us with part-time day care workers, caterers, cleaning services, book keepers, and so on.
Aside from having their little trick show ponies to lead to church behind them for each service, they’ll never notice we’re gone.
Susan,
Yes, I think it will. And “pastor” becoming “minister” or, more likely in my opinion, “director,” is just semantics since the job responsibilities won’t change. I know two fantastic young ladies who were raised in Southern Baptist churches, got college degrees in children’s ministry, and now can’t find a job that will pay them a living wage. Churches — some of them big enough and well known enough that you’d know them if I mentioned them — are perfectly to let these gals be interns indefinitely, at either no pay or very low pay. It’s despicable. I would be hard pressed to recommend a young lady I care about try to go this route. They’d be better off moving to a denomination where their opportunities would be greater.
Most Southern Baptists are not Calvinists, and in fact, Southern Baptist seminary professors wrote a book called Whosever Will: A Biblical-Theological Critique of Five-Point Calvinism. Calvin himself did not believe in limited atonement. David L. Allen (who was the editor of both editions), who was at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and is now at Mid-American Baptist Theological Seminary, has written two books on the extent of the atonement. One was 848 pages. Most Southern Baptists are in reality Arminian in theology, even though most won’t accept the label. The S in FACTS stands for Security of the Believer, and most Arminians believe in the possibility of apostasy, but there is allowance for those who do not (I’m not a Baptist, I’m Pentecostal).
Go to evangelicalarminians.org to find the FACTS acronym and what it stands for. My work computer will not allow me link to the to the article on the website.
From the OP:
Final question: What is cooperation?
Does your church associate with other churches outside of their wheelhouse?
My congregation does both ecumenical and interfaith work with other congregations, mainly funding and staffing a shelter, and providing meals for unhoused people. The building is available for community groups to use, and has a Head Start program. We are also active (in a low-key way) with local concerns such as changes in parking regulations.
We have a professional counseling service for people who are struggling—shared among several congregations from our tradition. I mention this because a lot of congregations don’t offer any services to non-members.
Catholic churches don’t need popes for lunchbag ministries, or any other pure purpose.
Friend,
And that, IMO, is exactly what a church is supposed to do to shine the light of the gospel in the world.
Dee, may you and your family value these last days with your mother. Bittersweet as it is, saying goodbye in a graceful and meaningful fashion will bring a sense of meaning and completion when you look back on these days in the future. Faith brings it all full circle.
“The theodudes don’t give a hoot that the US will see declining numbers in conservative churches. Remember, if only two are left, the church will survive.” – this is the entire issue; “doctrinal purity” as they define it.
That.
Don’t give a hoot (from the TWW marqee) about how many leave?
Sounds like hyperbole to me.
Butts in seats means wallets and purses in seats too.
Let’s not be hasty, when the reality of revenue sourcing sinks in, they’ll make adjustments.
First, Dee, I’m praying for your mother to pass peacefully when it’s her time, and for comfort for your family now and them. We just went through the passing of my wife’s mother after a long bout with dementia, and we sympathize.
Back in the early 2000s we were members of what a normal (for then) Baptist church; not too small, not too large, but growing slowly. I was a deacon, and we began dealing with a new pastor who started moving things toward a leadership model that excluded the congregation from decisions and placed it in the deacons (AKA “elders”). The deacons were divided, and I eventually stepped down along with some others. At the time, one of the deacons on the “other side” of the issue told me, “I guess it’s just better if some people leave the church” if they didn’t agree with the new direction. Little did I know I would do just that a few weeks later, when the pastor called for a “standing vote” to affirm the new leadership model and, specifically, hiding the salaries of the leadership in the budget; I stayed seated, and that was the beginning of the end there for me and my family.
Fast forward a few years and we’re in a smaller church, one that provided a covering for us to home school our youngest daughters. (One daughter, who was dealing with epilepsy, needed more attention and care than the public school could/would give her, and the other daughter wanted to be included.) The pastor was “Reformed Baptist,” but he was also a live-and-let live guy on primary matters of the faith. We were happy there for a few years until we brought in a new, “preacher boy” associate pastor to help run the home school group. He was more hard-core Calvinist, and he was also very much of a “men run things women submit” mindset. It took a few years, but things devolved, including the school covering, which had been thriving before. Eventually the pastor (who had founded the church) was essentially forced to leave by the associate pastor and the elders, who judged him unfit to leave. He become a “biblical counseling minister” (shudder) at another church…. and we left too, as our daughters had graduated high school that year. (There’s a wild story about the associate (now senior) pastor accosting us a couple of years later demanding forgiveness from us, but that’s a tale for another time.)
We stayed out of church for several years after that. We didn’t want to be in a megachurch, and it seemed every church we visited, including Baptist churches, were all going Calvinista. During the time when most churches were closed due to the pandemic madness, we began following a Baptist church online that seemed to be congregational, non-Calvinista, and accepting of women in leadership. Early this year we joined, and we’ve been happy and busy there ever since. This church is “dual allegiance” – SBC and CBF – though it leans more CBF, I think. I keep wondering if/when the church will leave the SBC, as women are not kept away from teaching or running committees and teams or (GOOD HEAVENS!) preaching or…
(Apologies for the lengthy dissertation – it just felt good to share our journey away from the SBC/Baptist “reformed/Calvinist” universe into something more Christ-like.)
Cobber2076,
In the third paragraph, “unfit to leave” should be “unfit to lead.” The elders most assuredly deemed the pastor FIT to leave. 🙂
Cobber2076,
Forgot to note that the first church I mentioned above is now full Calvinista, with a membership class and covenant and the whole ball of unbiblical wax. Glad to be long gone.
Yep, NeoCal modus operandi … indoctrinate them to reformed theology in the membership class, get them to sign their spiritual lives away in the member covenant, and then unroll the rest of the ball of unbiblical wax to stick them to. It’s all about power and control for the theodudes at the top … very little to do with Jesus and the Great Commission. Jesus has no authority and influence in NeoCal churches.
Cobber2076,
Your story is becoming far too common. The New Calvinists have made a royal mess of the SBC. The Done ranks are swelling with ex-SBC members who saw the light … done with SBC, but not done with Jesus. I was a Southern Baptist for 70 years, bailing out when Mohler and his Mohlerites brought in New Calvinism.
Glad that you have found a place to worship and not having to fight this mess any longer. There are still some good SBC churches like the one you are in now, which have not surrendered to the NeoCal movement. I’m not sure how much longer they will be able to remain affiliated with SBC and the Kingdom of God at the same time.
It takes beaucoup bucks to run those places, they ain’t about to let it go.
Cobber2076,
I did time in the Calvary Chapel cult.
The time came when I could no longer deal with the authoritarian dictatorship and so I left.
I’m now ensconced in the liberal wing of Lutheranism (ELCA) and I’m happy as a clam.
Aaron,
And yet in 1552 we find this –
“A TREATISE
on the ETERNAL PREDESTINATION OF GOD,
ETC., ETC.
THE CONSENT
of the pastors of the church of christ, at geneva, concerning “the eternal predestination of god;”
by which, he has chosen some men unto salvation, while he has left others to their own destruction;
and also, their consent concerning “the providence of god,”* by which he governs human affairs; set forth
BY JOHN CALVIN”
from which the following is a quote
“ Moreover, I can, with all truth, confess, that I never should have spoken or written on this subject, unless the Word of God, in my own soul, had led the way. All godly readers will, indeed, gather this from my former writings; and especially from my “Institute.” But this present refutation of my enemies, who oppose themselves to me, will, perhaps, afford my friends some new light upon the matter.
But since the authority of the ancient Church is, with much hatred, cast in my teeth; it will perhaps be worth our while to consider, at the commencement, how unjustly the truth of Christ is smothered, under this enmity: the ground of which is, in one sense, false, and in another frivolous”
And thereby prove their manhood.
Princess women and toxic manhood. Disney and classic American Christians. Chollywood.
Oh you mean finagling and sophistry?
Aaron,
Thank you – very informative.
Indeed! The majority of Southern Baptists remain non-Calvinist in belief and practice. I know … I was one for 70 years. Unfortunately, millions of non-Calvinist members slept as the New Calvinists took over the SBC … they now control all SBC entities (seminaries, mission agencies, publishing house, church planting program, etc.). Not to mention that thousands of traditional (non-Calvinist) churches have been taken over by the new reformers through stealth and deception. In the meantime, the majority millions continue to finance this theo-rebellion through their tithes and offerings. A once-great evangelistic/mission-minded organization has been stripped of its identity by the New Calvinists who are now solidly in control. I suppose the non-Calvinist majority will awaken some day and ask “What happened?!” It’s as if as long as you don’t mess with their potluck dinners, they don’t give a big whoop about the theological shift and ecclesiological drift in SBC. It’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen!
Just like that one neo-Nazi I encountered during my college days.
Whenever someone divides people into Herrenvolk und Untermenschen, they ALWAY?S count themselves as one of the Herrnvolk.
I did time in a smaller but similar One True Church.
It never got bigger than one cult compound of an old large Craftsman house and one fourplex in Whittier and apparently self-destructed around 1980, while Calvary Chapel grew and grew and gfrewto Dominate Christianese airwaves in the Eighties and are now as plentiful as Starbucks in Seattle. Where Muff & I am, There Can Be NO Salvation outside of Calvary Chapel. “HAIL PAPA CHUCK!”
The ultimate theoretical End State of Protestantism, the One True Church of One.
(i.e. “All are Heretics and Apostates except MEEEEEEEEEEE!”)
Type example Calvinist A.W.Pink.
Purity of Ideology, Comrades.
Ask Comrade Pol Pot how far that can go.
Just like the ever-changing Correct Newspeak of the old USSR.
ChEKA becomes OGPU becomes NKVD becomes KGB becomes FSB.
Loopholes. So many loopholes. Well women cannot be pastors so we will just change the title. Or not pay them for their work. Or both. I have asked the Redeemed folks when a person says the sinner’s prayer, do you declare them saved? Or do you say something along the lines of “I hope you are saved but time will tell.” I mean if they were never saved in the first place, why give false hope?
Dee, such sorrow and joy at the same time. I said a prayer for you and your family.
Cobber2076,
We were part of a non-Calvinist church that went full Calvinista when the senior pastor retired, complete with deception regarding pastoral salaries, too. It stinks. I’m sorry you and your family went through this, too, and glad to hear you’ve found a better place.
Well, take it from an ex-Southern Baptist who spent over 70 years in SBC ranks … if the current leaders were to remove women from ministry (regardless of what you call them), most SBC churches would have to close their doors. It’s common knowledge in SBC life that women carry the mantle of ministering to the needs of folks both in and outside the church … they are Sunday School teachers … they visit the sick … they pray with those in nursing homes … they do the work of the ministry.
Which would NOT be that bad an outcome.
A cross between Lysistrata and Leopards Ate My Face (subreddit).
And the Dudebros can wank each other off as they all go down the drain, their Holy Testosterone forever safe from femoid contamination.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
… except the me-clones in all the denominations I’ve got “relations” with as church bosses (false top down ecumenism)
Dee, I can relate to “joy and sorrow” at the same time regarding your son’s wedding. My father died of ALS four weeks before my wedding. Probably the most macabre experience I’ve ever had is accepting congratulations on my upcoming wedding with my father’s coffin just a few feet away.
I also lost my mother after a long decline. I have heard that the last thing to go is hearing, and I’m sure that you’re talking to your mother as you’re there with her. This must be so hard for you. Take the time you need. We’ll be here when you come back.
That’s assuming they were being paid at an equitable level to male pastors in the first place.
Jim K
I am a dispensationalist, not a Calvinist, and left the Southern Baptists over their ecumenical doctrines and practices, but Romans 16:17 requires separation from those with different doctrines. I think Heath Lambert is a great Baptist CEO and politician but a mediocre Bible teacher, but I respect that he reduced FBC Jacksonville’s membership from 31,000 to 2,100.