An astronaut aboard the International Space Station (@ISS) shot this photograph as the station orbited at an altitude of more than 250 miles over Australia on Oct. 8, 2018. The golden hue enveloping Earth is known as airglow- NASA
“Titles served their purpose in creating necessary boundaries, reminding people of their place in life. Once, she hadn’t realized how vast the chasm was between the highborn and lowborn, but she’d spent the last few years learning better. It was a vast chasm indeed, uncrossable.” ― Onyx and Ivory.
I couldn’t decide between these two stories in the SBC, so I thought I would share them for your comments.
Immoral Pastors Get Standing Ovations While Women Pastors Are “Daughters of Stan.”
I have enjoyed interacting with the good folks at SBC Voices. The SBC pastors involved with this blog were early supporters of the abuse initiatives, although they have differing thoughts on the implementation mechanisms. When I first discovered their blog, I hesitated to comment, fearing they wouldn’t appreciate my ideas. Instead, they have been thoughtful in their replies. They wouldn’t agree with me on some things but would on others. Early on, they commented on my thoughts on membership contracts. Several visited the protest outside of the SBC a few years ago. Dwight McKissic even spoke of his concerns at that event.
Today, William Thornton asked an interesting question.
TWO standing ovations?
Here are some of his thoughts to chew on. If you visit his site, you will see comments that disagree with him and others who agree.
A larger church pastor, hearty and robust representative of the male species, came to his church recently and declared he was stressed out, exhausted, burned out and needed a break from church responsibilities. He received his first STANDING OVATION. Alas, as information percolated among the congregants it was revealed that he was not only burned out but having an immoral relationship, as in not with his beloved, betrothed wife to whom he made vows before God.
But, as these things go, there was a period of predictable and presumed repentance, rehabilitation, recovery, and restoration. The poor pastor was able to rest, recalibrate and recall his marital vows. Later, the immoral pastor/elder/overseer has a humble, informal Q & A with any in the congregation who care to come. Questions are finessed with an appropriate self-deprecating attitude and the immoral, intemperate, non-self-controlled, and nonrespectable brother is given his SECOND STANDING OVATION. Any questions?
Lawd! The poor man is now a victim! We must do what we can to see that his giftedness remains available to the unwashed masses!
Dee commented. I remember predicting on Twitter (or X) that Andy Savage would get a standing ovation. My prediction was proven correct. It caused such a controversy that I traveled to the NYT with Jules Woodson and Amy Smith as they filmed an Op-Ed regarding this standing ovation. Savage and his church were members of the SBC until they removed their affiliation to 3-4 weeks after the uproar. Here is a link to that video.
My thoughts
- Could the leaders want to divert attention from the Abuse Implementation Task Force? I think things are not going too smoothly for that group.
- Is the Executive Committee aware of the number of abusive pastors in the pulpit? Could it be that they cannot do much about it since the churches are supposedly autonomous?
- How many abusive pastors get Standing Ovations from their clueless members? How many pastors specifically ask the members not to do that? How many of them secretly like it?
- Why are churches becoming the next mediocre musical venue with standing ovations and phone flashlights waving? Funny aside: Why do pastors always say that their music leaders are widely known in the music world? Several churches I attended had mediocre groups that claimed to be experienced professionals supposedly vying to become the next “known” group on “Christian radio.”
- How do these standing ovations for mediocre or abusive pastors look to a watching world? Frankly, I laughed at all the church members in Savage’s church. Then, I felt sad for them, knowing they had not been taught well. Many of them view church like a Luke Bryan concert. Good music and feel-good interactions are the name of the game. Drop some money on some merch if you can afford it.
- The SBC lost 1/2 million members last year. Some of it is due to the “Great DeChurching,” which we will discuss soon. However, if one looks at the Catholic church, people started leaving well before now, and much of it was due to the uncovering of abuse.
- The SBC will be challenged to defend its view that each church in the SBC is autonomous. Given its recent removal of some churches with female pastors, while knowing that female pastors have been involved in the SBC for years, I think the SBC will be challenged on this viewpoint. I think they will lose in court in the near future.
- Given that the SBC closely aligns with Scripture, where is the repentance for their actions and the offer of reparations?
Let me end it this way. I still remember Jules Woodson calling me, crying her eyes out, that the church attendees gave Andy Savage a standing ovation after he confessed he did it and was sorry, kind of, sort of. Now, think about how widespread abuse is in the SBC. There are many Jules Woodsons out there.
So go ahead. Get rid of female pastors and prepare for female directors or ministers or whatever…The game will be played, and everything will go on just like it has been going on for a long time. To help out in this area, here is a link to some synonyms for a minister, just in case that word is too strong for a woman to bear.
- parson (I really like this one (Dee Parsons the parson.)
- Holy Joe
- curate
- confessor
- sky pilot
- high priestess
- oblate
- divine
- dean
Years ago, we joked here that I should have the title of Mid-right Reverend. I kind of liked that. Please feel free to come up with titles for yourselves.
In the meantime, the SBC sure knows how to shoot themselves in the foot. This issue should have been resolved years ago, and they know it. They quietly accepted that a few churches had women pastors. Then came the Calvinistas and Theodudes. Those dudes think they are making the SBC more pure. They aren’t. They are just overlooking the problems that they don’t like.
“Given that the SBC closely aligns with Scripture, where is the repentance for their actions and the offer of reparations?”
++++++++++++++
actually, i should have just pared the quote down to
“Given that the SBC closely aligns with Scripture..”
.
.
closely aligned with scripture…. ha
i’m laughing on the inside (as bitter as brussel sprouts with a side of radishes and a demi-tasse of espresso),
with the world’s most ironic facial expression on the outside.
everyone says they are.
and no one is.
closely aligned means “nope, that’s too much.”
too inconvenient
too threatening
too uncomfortable
too icky
elastigirl,
“Given that the SBC closely aligns with Scripture, where is the repentance for their actions and the offer of reparations?”
++++++++++++++++++
at least they seem to have realized that “biblical” is a logical impossibility.
but i knew that years ago.
they’ll just shoot for close enough.
just love how they rationalize what that means. 😐
(still ironic, here)
basking in the praise of clueless people, … maybe deep down these narcissists really are insecure.
How about Bible Babe??
“In what universe . . . ?”
The depraved universe of organizations that put self, money, power, and position (entitlement) before the concerns of congregants, staff, victims, and perhaps that guy Jesus.
Count the SBC as one of said organizations.
Holy Josephine
or DEEP (Deborah, Esther, Eunice, and Priscilla all in one)
These “pastors” need to play the role of David and the elder boards/theobros/deacons/God’s special pets (thanks HUG for that one) need to play the role of Nathan. Condemn his actions and his sin, tell him how God’s name will be mocked because of their actions (2 Samuel 11:14), then leave (verse 15) and let God deal with him/them.
Abigail,
Love this!!
Immoral pastors???
Ha! Here’s one for that I was actually told by someone (my words, a bit more blunt and to the point instead of being tactful and condescending all at the same time as the man who told me) —-
The SBC can kick out churches with women pastors and ban women as pastors because having women pastors is antithetical with the BF&M 2000. But, there’s nothing in the BF&M 2000 about immoral and/or abusive pastors (or abusive men, in general), so they can’t do anything ‘bout that on the national level.
Yeah. And they have had, what, 5 years to do something about that “we can’t” problem…….. and not a single proposal has been put before the convention, or any committees. Yet, they voted to ban women as being pastors of any sort.
Hahaha!
Silence women.
What those who attack and violate women do as they go about their business of predation.
No voice … nothing happened. Nothing of consequence, in any case.
The immorality of their male leaders does not concern them. Their male leaders can live their lives pretty much between their legs, and it’s normal, yawn, nothing of consequence. Stuff “happens”.
Women having a voice is evil, in their world.
So what’s a person of conscience and integrity to do? Shake the dust off their sandals and run from this orgy called church, that even violates a teen down a dirt road into the forest as the youth pastor shoves his sacred blessed member down her throat.
This is their world of biblical manhood doing as his lowest desires lead him while the biblical women shut their mouths and do not speak. But oh yeah, the pastor shoves his member in her mouth. Not metaphorically. Nothing metaphoric about this. No voice allowed. But oral rape is applauded.
Biblical manhood and womanhood couldn’t get more vulgar, gross or evil.
I still think daughter of Stan is best……. It speaks volumes on so many levels
Episcopal Bishops
https://religionnews.com/2023/09/05/bishop-michael-curry-responds-to-complaints-of-free-passes-for-accused-bishops/
Southern Baptist men would do well to look at spiritually-gifted women in their midst as Priscillas rather than Jezebels … anointed women who could instruct them in the way of God. Lord knows we need to give the mic to someone who has something to say, rather than some of the characters who are in SBC pulpits.
“Then came the Calvinistas and Theodudes. Those dudes think they are making the SBC more pure.”
I believe God would have an entirely different definition of “Biblical Womanhood” than the NeoCals. After all “there is neither male nor female; for you who believe are all one in Christ Jesus – no one can claim a spiritual superiority” (Galatians 3:28 AMP).
Purity in SBC may only come after the Theodudes have done their damage and move along.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
I agree with you. I still remember reading that screed email from that man who ended by calling the group of us “Daughters of Stan. I laughed out loud and realized he made a more significant mistake than a simple misspelling.
The weakness of the ‘theodudes’ and ‘neo-Calvinists’ in exhibiting massive amounts of misogyny (contempt towards the dignity of women) tells us that these ‘men’ are far from strong indeed.
If they ‘have to’ put women ‘in their place’ to feel ‘superior’, then they are like a gang of bullies formed to shore themselves and their power and control up. But they cannot even control their own miserable treatment of them they consider ‘less than’ themselves. A profoundly rotten lot? From the core.
Southern Baptists are the most contentious churchgoers on the planet. I can say that with accuracy – I was one for over 70 years. They are always fighting about this or that … right now, what to do with “Daughters of Stan” are at the top of their list.
A verse that describes every SBC business meeting I attended: “The people were all shouting, some one thing and some another — everything was in confusion. In fact, most of them didn’t even know why they were there.” (Acts 19:32)
Whataboutism.
“WE THANK THEE, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOORD THAT WE ARE NOTHING LIKE THOSE FILTHY EPISCOPALIANS OVER THERE!!!!!!!”
From a long-ago Internet Monk comment thread:
“Evil is the side most obsessed with Purity.”
Max–had an SBC pastor who used to tell us that where there were two Southern Baptists there would be at least 3 opinions on any topic.
And about the guy stranded on a desert island. When rescued the rescuers spotted 3 buildings the guy had erected. He explained one was for living in, one was his church, and the other was the church he used to go to.
Not much has changed regarding being contentious.
Max,
I learned form 3 instances way back in the late 1970s that if a man had an extramarital affair, and it was a pastor or a deacon, it was a “keep your mouth shut” thing. If it was anyone else, the church exploded! ……. And, it was always the woman’s fault…. that hussy!
dee,
Yup….
My money would be on the RCs who are only really staying together for the sake of the children, sorry I meant, because they’ve got to stay in communion with the Bishop of Rome. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t think the divorce is coming though.
Some of them are even getting round this by making out that the pope isn’t a pope so they don’t think they need to stay in communion with him.
Stop slandering Stan!
“Please feel free to come up with titles for yourselves.”
Eshet Chayil – woman of valour
Max, great to see you back and commenting.
Article submitted today, Sept. 7:
https://www.baptistpress.com/resource-library/news/mike-law-says-constitutional-amendment-meant-to-provide-clarity/
“At the end of the day, placing women in the pastoral office is fundamentally a rejection of biblical authority, and that’s why we want to encourage in the life of our convention, really a joyful submission to the sufficiency in the authority of the Bible,” he said.
Dear Mike Law,
I am a woman. So I would like to know if I will have kitchen duty at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb?
Jeffrey Chalmers,
I’m still somewhat embarassed that the “Daughter of Stan” epithet evokes such a strong response in me. I guess I’m shallow like that. It just encapsulates so much! I can’t help but chuckle everytime I see it. A holier than thou dude tries to type out the worst moniker he can think of to hurl at another child of the King and he unknowingly reveals so much of his own character. I just can’t help but imagine God Himself with a small, knowing smirk on His face.
… or even a more rational but neglected variant; that the pope is indeed a pope but one doesn’t need to stay in communion with him, whatever one’s churchmanship.
Mr. Law is the right name … it’s all law with him and no life. Focused on jots and tittles with his “joyful submission” mumbo-jumbo, he misses knowing the joy of the Lord when God is allowed to work through the whole Body of Christ by releasing the unique spiritual gifts of each believer rather than chaining them to the pew.
He appears to be SBC’s new Calvinista hit man. He’ll go far in NeoCal ranks, while distancing himself from the heart of God.
Jesus is the ultimate authority, not some theodude’s interpretation of the Bible. The authority and influence of Jesus are waning in the American church. The Calvinistas have made sure of that.
We need more ‘Daughters of Stan’.
Please feel free to come up with titles for yourselves.
— Muff the Magnificent —
And that’s exactly what it is, mumbo-jumbo.
I’m still amazed at what you (generic you) can conjure up from a bunch of Greek letters all jammed together on crumbling parchments.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I clicked that link and now I want to wash the sanctimoniousness off my phone screen.
But hey, I guess all the women just trying to do some good in the SBC can be reassured that Law et al just want to be super, super bibley here. No misogyny, just have to be clear about how biblish and submissiony everyone is. Can’t have any churches being unbiblicated, that confuses people. After all, it would be really bad if folks weren’t sure about the proper biblified authority to submittify themselves to. Joyfully, of course!
There are reportedly 30,000 distinct Christian denominations/organizations on planet earth … set apart from one another by how some theologian assembled those letters to support his personal view of Scripture. Who’s got a corner on Truth? Only Jesus.
Max,
CMT,
The large majority of SBC women have been fooled into believing that they go to church to serve and worship Jesus/God.
They’re so wrong. If they’d just pay attention to what goes on, what they are actually allowed to do, and how things are done, how much a “part of church” women are NOT, they would learn that women are in the churches to make things easier and more convenient for the men, and to serve the men. Women also must obey men, especially married women. For women, they have replaced God and Jesus with fallible human males.
CMT,
Have you ever heard of the fictitious Landover Baptist Church? It’s a parody of fundamentalists churches. They believe women don’t have souls.
The SBC is coming closer all the time to making Landover a reality.
Believer,
““Daughter of Stan””
+++++++++++
it’s totally funny.
especially because it really happened. the truth is funnier than fiction. (well, fiction is loaded with truth)
SBC will soon be down to a handful of churches with only one member each … and that being the pastor! The Body of Christ has more important things to do than attend my-way-or-the-highway churches.
Max,
If you read Josephus’ work “Against Apion” and/or Philo’s work “On the Contemplative Life” you’ll see that the Hebrew canon was established early on before Christ’s birth and he quoted from it regularly – no crumbling parchments involved. And most of the NT canon -22 out of 27 books – were circulating in the church as authoritative before the end of the second century a.d.
And there’s an interesting take on the diversity of denominations that has been on the go for some time now and that is they’ve all helped to spread the Gospel so they’ve not necessarily been a bad thing. But to be able to accept that argument you need to have a broad view of what constitutes the “Church” and be less inclined to criticise those denominations you disagree with. (and it would take away the platform for so much repetitive, uncharitable criticism – just think how much more irenical watch blogs would be)
The ultimate theoretical end state of Protestantism – the One True Church of One.
In an Age of Extremes like today, it becomes impossible to do parody.
Because as over-the-top crazy as you can make a parody, there will be True Believers out there more over-the-top and more crazy than you could ever imagine – and Dead Serious.
And SERVICE the men – or at least the Urrrges in his Arrrreas.
It’s like Andrew Tate with a Christian coat of paint.
As Joyful as North Korean Objects dancing Joyfully with Great Enthusiasm for Comrade Dear Leader.
Before there was a Hebrew canon, there was the Word … His name is Jesus.
“In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself … And the Word (Christ) became flesh, and lived among us.” (John 1 AMP)
I would never criticize the “Church” only the “church.” Much of what we call church is not really the Church at all. But Praise God, there has always been the Church within the church. I run across it every once in a while … an encounter which is refreshing, indeed!
Why am I being expected to act like male property? I mean, seriously, people, at bottom, women in the Biblical period and for LONG AFTER were considered *property* of their male relatives. I’m no man’s property–no person is property of another–and I wish this would stop!
Mike Law wouldn’t be like this if it had been *men* oppressed for centuries. He’s reminding me yet again why I’m glad to be outside the charmed circle of the ecclesia. *scowl*
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Sometimes I wonder what Law, and men like him, would say if I just put yokes over their necks or bits in their mouths and hitched them to covered wagons!
Or, maybe take them to the stockyard and see if I get any bids.
I truly do get the itch sometimes to ask some men how high of a bride price they had to pay for the women they own, and tell them it was a shame there wasn’t a BOGO sale.
Don’t give them any more ideas! The NeoCals are messed up enough as it is!
Max,
Apologies Max. The comment was addressed to Muff.
I agre with your subsequent comments and that is why the Bible is called “The Word of God”
Glad to see you back
Lowlandseer: Apologies Max. The comment was addressed to Muff.
Please re-submit your comment to me.
Mayhap we can dialogue.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
If honest, that’s infinitely better than all the dissembling and shifting we see from them. I’ve always been glad to see where I stand. Sometimes, a church was prepared to have me around as semi-detached.
Lol
Lowlandseer,
Maybe we could even get Jon Stewart to moderate.
“Daughters of Stan”?! Heck no … I’m more worried about the “Sons of Stan” in leadership positions who have taken the American church greatly off-track! The early church would not recognize what we call “church” … very little in it that resembles Jesus.
Wrong criticism is shallow and avoids the point, e.g “they do / talk the wrong kind of prayer” conveniently avoiding how almost everyone weaponises prayer (or whatever other issue); the weaponising against ordinary parishioners being the justifiable subject of criticism.
Not to mention Sons of Ollie who rant about the “fine mess” that everyone else has “got us into”.
And not only of protestantism – seeing the spread of the view, Landover style, that not a lot of us have got souls (ESS) . . .
“… a larger church pastor … declared he was stressed out, exhausted, burned out and needed a break from church responsibilities. He received his first STANDING OVATION … it was revealed that he was not only burned out but having an immoral relationship … the immoral, intemperate, non-self-controlled, and non-respectable brother is given his SECOND STANDING OVATION …”
I shudder to think what the brother would have to do to get a THIRD STANDING OVATION! I suppose some congregations love pastors who behave no differently than they do; it makes them feel better about themselves … so let’s applaud the bad-boy rather than send him packing! The American pulpit is a mess because the pew is a mess.
Who is Jon Stewart ? I’d much rather have PJ O’Rourke. Unfortunately he’s no longer with us and I don’t have the number for the witch of endor. (Shed’dno doubt bring a fake to the table)
Pass-through-the-fire Child sacrifice?
Example is this posting on the “InsanePeopleFacebook” subreddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/insanepeoplefacebook/comments/16eyqqo/my_cousin_sent_me_this_screenshot_from_his_boss/
https://imgur.com/Sx2CTNe.png
Every Redditor at Insane People Facebook and Herman Cain Awards is pretty sure this one’s a hoax (the PNG image is from one of the Men In Black movies), but in an Age of Extremes you never know. All I can say is when I traced it I found that Evangelical Christians were very well represented on r/InsanePeopleFacebook.
As one othe Herman Cain Awards commenters put it, “There is no Conspiracy Theory too crazy for Evangelicals.”
On the Biblical status of Men and Women (and flesh and spiritO, here’s a recent YouTube video from Metatron (linguist from Sicily), who approaches it specifically from the direction of original language (which was NOT Kynge Jaymes Englyshe):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP_Gb70chEQ
It’s NOT as clear-cut as the Biblical Manhood/Womanhood and Ken Ham types preach it. And a lot more physical and earthy than spiritual and otherworldly, which would match the attitudes of a Jewish origin.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
For “species” read clan. The others were the same species. We are a mixture of clans. Is he a dispensationist posing as a philologist?
Otherwise a good smattering of additional hints of layers of meaning adding to my own hermeneutic.
In fact he is saying that women are more “hip” as well as a core intelligence in mankind.
Tree of lives = kingdom of trading of Holy Spirit filled talents following on the receiving of the distinct Good News (bought dearly from another realm, pictured in last 21 verses of Proverbs)
Tree of k of g & e = trying to cope with contingency and distress without having the above first.
Also k of g & e is when Adam said he was right and she was wrong and in any case she was more wrong than he was.
Something was wrong with their boundaries so that’s why Gen 3:16 warns us not to mess with others’ boundaries as the victim can find it difficult to extricate themselves: the preposition is “for” not “against”.
Nearly all evangelicalismn etc and much catholicism has gone the route of the second tree without Holy Spirit (re) infilling (s), quashing the indwelling.
Or fake (re) infilling (s), distorting it.
“Muscular christianity” = works of the flesh.
“Influencing” = works of the flesh.
“Body theology” as ultimate political fix = works of the flesh.
“Gender theology” as ultimate political fix because above backfired = works of the flesh.
The first covenant recorded (subsequent to the covenant of the tree of lives of course) was when God is said to have sewed for them (doubtless people helped). The next few was when God set limits to punishment for murderers (that is helpfully brought into the video).
Prior to the juxtaposition of mixed hunters, farmers, herders, in a solely hunting-gathering region, population traditionally stayed sparse and people only needed clothes if it was cold. Adam and Eve had grown aloof, like most Romans.
Tree of k of g & e = trying to trigger events unintelligently; pushing people around, including in marriage and especially church.
In the Bible “he shall” and “you shall” are not carte blanche, they are descriptions of nature or easy predictions. Likewise St Paul says “some people generally found themselves getting into things even the Roman society doesn’t like” (listing exploitive angles to behaviours, cautioning believers to not be exploitive or selfish).
Eve copying Adam to beat him = abandoning intelligence under pressure.
To be in Christ and live in Holy Spirit strength is to join a new “species” that doesn’t need to push people around (currently and still open to jews and gentiles alike, as the law itself, prophets and Jesus had always stressed).
“Daughters of Stan” is pure accidental genius. It makes me smile. I am proud to be among TDOS at TWW. Dee, I think you may be hesitant in the area of merch? But I would proudly wear a shirt with that moniker! ♥️
Rain Girl,
I have been asked before. My son in law made me one. Maybe I should try to offer something.
Dee, I sent you an email!