Did I offer peace today? Did I bring a smile to someone’s face? Did I say words of healing? Did I let go of my anger and resentment? Did I forgive? Did I love? These are the real questions. I must trust that the little bit of love that I sow now will bear many fruits, here in this world and the life to come. Henri Nouwen
We are still working with victims and will have more stories in the coming week or so. Continue to pray for Elisha as things develop on that front as well.
But what can a woman do?
SBC Voices, which tends towards complementarianism, posted What CAN Women Do in the Church? (Stephanie Jones). This provocative post challenged my thinking on this subject in the following way.
The question I started asking was, “What, then, can women do in the church?”
As complementarians, we are quick to make lists, and they vary from church to church: women cannot preach, women cannot teach mixed group classes, women cannot be ordained, women cannot baptize, women cannot be the worship leader, women cannot be deacons, women cannot be in authority over a man.
That last one gets me. Paul wrote it in 1 Timothy 2 and because the Bible is the inspired word of God, I respect it and want to obey it. But how?
In 1 Timothy 2:12, how literally are we to take, “she must be silent”?
Does it mean women shouldn’t serve on the personnel committee because that group has the authority to recommend to the church that a pastor be let go if need be? Does it mean women shouldn’t serve on the church finance committee because that group has the authority to say what the staff (mostly or all male) can and cannot spend money on?
Yes, I get the pastor title thing, but what does it mean in day-to-day practice for women who are creative thinkers? This subject gets muddied when current pundits and quasi-thought leaders in the complementarian movement make all-encompassing statements,
Mike Stone of the Conservative Baptist Network has rules for women at his church, and it goes beyond the title of “pastor.”
Bill Wilson, writing for Baptist News Global, posted Get ready for a third Baptist alternative to emerge. In the article, he quotes Mike Stone’s list of how to limit the functions of women in his church. (PS This BNG post raises even more questions about the SBC for the future.It’s worth the read.)
For clarity, one need only listen to Mike Stone’s description of how women are excluded from nearly any leadership role in his understanding of congregational leadership: “We have male leadership, the pastoral staff, the ministerial staff, our deacon ministry, as well; we do not even allow women to teach in our couples’ classes. Anytime there are adult men in the group, we have men that are leading in that capacity.”
While Stone was defeated in his quest to become president of the SBC, his philosophy won the day as the body thoroughly embraced an amendment to the SBC Constitution radically narrowing acceptable female leadership. If approved again next summer at the SBC annual meeting, this extremist approach to female leadership will become the norm and a litmus test for defining those churches that are in “friendly cooperation” with the denomination.
John Piper: Women cannot lead parachurch groups because a woman should not get too personal in giving directions and orders. Piper goess waaaay beyond (into infinity and beyond) the title of pastor.
Coincidentally(or not), Desiring God on 6/26 /03 (think SBC convention and Mike Stone’s statements) posted audio at Desiring God, which addressed the question, “Can Women Lea a Parachurch Ministry?” Never a group to mince words, the moderator said, “No,” and Piper backed him up. The article based on the podcast seems to claim that such a scenario is symptomatic of a society in freefall! Yikes!
The culture as a whole is in a free fall of denial. Nobody in this free fall has on a parachute. It’s all going to end tragically, the evidences of which are all around us. They make you want to weep when you see what’s happening to young people, what’s happening to relationships, the kind of remorse and regret and carnage that is being unleashed on our culture as a penalty for the free fall denial of God and his ways.
And the gravitational pull of this free fall is in almost every movie, every online drama, every advertisement, every newscast, so that a person who stands up and draws attention to God’s word or the teaching of nature and questions the wisdom of undifferentiated sex roles will not only be thought a fool, but also unjust and, very likely, soft on abuse, even though all the while the sex-leveling egalitarian impulses wreak havoc at every level of our culture, mocking and distorting the very kind of strength and responsibility and leadership that we so need from men.
So what does this mean for the parachurch organization?
With regard to men and women in parachurch organizations, I think Paul would say, “I have taught, Moses has taught, nature teaches that it goes against man’s and woman’s truest, God-given nature to place a woman in a role of regular, direct, personal leadership over men.”
So what in the world does he mean by this? In his book, What’s the Difference(which can be downloaded for free), Piper expresses concern for any woman showing leadership over any man. Here is the case in point. A woman has to be careful giving road directions to a man. Wut?!
For example, a housewife in her backyard may be asked by a man how to get to the freeway. At that point she is giving a kind of leadership. She has superior knowledge that the man needs and he sub- mits himself to her guidance. But we all know that there is a way for that housewife to direct the man that neither of them feels their mature femininity or masculinity compromised. It is not a contradiction to speak of certain kinds of influence coming from women to men in ways that affirm the responsibility of men to provide a pattern of strength and initiative.
But as I said earlier, there are roles that strain the person- hood of man and woman too far to be appropriate, productive and healthy for the overall structure of home and society. Some roles would involve kinds of leadership and expecta- tions of authority and forms of strength as to make it unfitting for a woman to fill the role. However, instead of trying to list what jobs might be fitting expressions for mature femininity or mature masculinity, it will probably be wiser to provide several guidelines.
Now he’s going to clear things up, or so he assumes.
Here is one possible set of criteria. All acts of influence and guidance can be described along these two continuums:
Personal NonPersonal
Directive NonDirective.
To the degree that a woman’s influence over man is personal and directive it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order.
A woman may design the traffic pattern of a city’s streets and thus exert a kind of influence over all male drivers. But this influence will be non-personal and therefore not necessar- ily an offense against God’s order. Similarly, the drawings and specifications of a woman architect may guide the behavior of contractors and laborers, but it may be so non-personal that the feminine-masculine dynamic of the relationship is negligible.
On the other hand, the relationship between husband and wife is very personal. All acts of influence lie on the continuum between personal and impersonal.
Now do you understand? I sure don’t. It appears he’s making it up as he goes, and his fan club is buying what appears to be nonsense to me.
As a female non-pastor: What can I do?
- If I understand a Scripture passage better than a group of males in a Bible study, do I share since it would mean I was teaching them something?
- If a male friend grilling at my house is burning the steak, do I point that out to him and show him how to cook better?
- Can I sing a song of Scripture when it might teach a man something about those verses?
- Why is Mary’s Magnificat, which a woman entirely spoke, allowed in Scripture? What if a man learns something from Mary? Or was this an exception to the rule? How do I know this?
- At what age should I have stopped giving my son directions?
This is the one that stumps me. The SBC motion says a woman can never be called a pastor. But what if she is inadvertently doing something only a pastor can do?
- Can a woman baptize-why or why not?
- Can she lead a mixed group of high school kids in a Bible study? Why or why not?
- What if an 18-year-old male in her group of high school kids learns something from her?
- What happens if a woman (This happened to me) knows that the pastor preaching is telling a story that isn’t true? Should she tell him?
- What happens when three months later, he repeats the provably false story? I told the lead pastor, and he told me that telling stories is how they train pastors. He was not amused when I said, “So they teach them to lie?”
- The Bible says a woman should be silent in church. It does not give parameters. Does this mean I must never sing inside a church?
One final question: Can anyone define what authority looks like and why women don’t have it in many church environments? I have seen authoritarian pastors like CJ Mahaney who claim authority and have caused much hurt. Authoritarian pastors supported him. They. were all wrong. So did they have authority or not? What about pastors who screw up abuse situations but still claim authority. Should women have obeyed them anyway?
I don’t understand all of these rules. If I must be honest, I believe John Piper sounds a bit unhinged.
What are your questions? What are your answers? I need lots of input.
Piper: “To the degree that a woman’s influence over man is personal and directive it will generally offend a man’s good, God-given sense of responsibility and leadership, and thus controvert God’s created order.”
David to Abigail (1 Samuel 25:32-34, NIV): “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, who has sent you today to meet me. May you be blessed for your good judgment and for keeping me from bloodshed this day and from avenging myself with my own hands. Otherwise, as surely as the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, who has kept me from harming you, if you had not come quickly to meet me, not one male belonging to Nabal would have been left alive by daybreak.”
Dee, you think to much…
Susan,
Susan, you DEFINITELY think to much…
Whew! Even Paul wouldn’t be this rough on female believers! In his wildest dreams, he would have never visualized church leaders stretching his epistles this far off track.
“Can anyone define what authority looks like …”
= Jesus
Unfortunately, the authority and influence of Jesus are waning in the American church. Mere men and their aberrant theologies are now on the throne.
I grew up in the Plymouth Brethren aka Open Brethren, and there was very, very little women could actually do. Most of the things you listed wouldn’t even be a question. Women could only teach Sunday school up to about 3rd grade. They couldn’t speak at all , including prayer or scripture reading , in a meeting where men were present. (The exception was congregational singing, and, oddly enough, singing solos in front of the church.) Women could meet together for prayer or “Bible study,” which consisted of reading patriarchal marriage books. I finally got out at age 36 when they banned “ladies Bible study” because some women wanted to study the actual Bible. It was then determined that women should not be teaching other women because Eve was deceived . Instead they should only learn from men , and the women’s group became a time to do cooking, sewing, and cleaning projects. This was in 2013, not 1813, by the way.
I’ve learned that Jesus is nothing at all like those men (and women who enable them.) I’m still grappling with the effects of decades in that abusive system. Thankfully I have an awesome therapist.
Can anyone define what authority looks like and why women don’t have it in many church environments?
Now, Dee. You know it’s a basic anatomy thing. You have to be endowed with a special kinda scepter made of flesh to have authority in church. You cannot make, or buy, or even earn one of those scepters in God’s kingdom: you must be blessed by God with one as part of your fleshly body. Either ya have one, or ya don’t, and never will.
Re. John Piper and the whole “a woman cannot speak with direct influence to a man” theory, reminds me of the first few months of my marriage. I’d been raised in churches that held to Mr. Piper’s theory, and so spoke this way to my husband. He finally got tired of trying to read my mind and told me, “Can you please just tell me what you want?!” It was not the easiest habit to break, but was a definite improvement.
Even the Babylon Bee realizes the problem of indirect communication: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=voPXuIeJOCY
“I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church in Cenchreae. So you should welcome her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints and assist her in whatever matter she may require your help. For indeed she has been a benefactor of many — and of me also.”
Romans 16:1-2 CSB
I never hear complementarians talk about women in this way.
John Piper speaks prettily, but when one sifts through the optical illusions to see what he is actually saying to and about women, his advice is, frankly, dangerous. Case in point, his advice to the mother of a newborn:
https://www.whyhavewefasted.org/john-pipers-advice-for-exhausted-new-moms/
Cuz’ according to them, women are only good for marital sex, child bearing, child rearing, cooking, and cleaning up the fellowship hall.
Or preach on the OT prophetess Hulda, who said to (male) officials sent by the (male) king, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, ‘This is what the Lord says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people—all the curses written in the book that has been read in the presence of the king of Judah. Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and aroused my anger by all that their hands have made, my anger will be poured out on this place and will not be quenched.’l
I wonder how that fits into John Piper’s non-personal non-direct directives for women.
I remember when conservatives Steve Gaines and Jim Richards were urging the selection of a woman for the top spot at ‘Lifeway’, the SBC’s publisher of Bibles, theology books, Bible studies, Sunday School lessons, etc.
Steve Gaines (SBC President, 2016-2018) twittered Apr 15, 2019:
“Why shouldn’t the next President of LifeWay be a competent, Godly woman? I see no biblical reason LifeWay has to be led by a man or a former pastor.”
https://twitter.com/bellevuepastor/status/1117839021999296512
And again April 25, 2019:
“Great article by Dr. Jim Richards re: new leadership in the SBC. And I agree with him 100% re: new leadership possibilities at LifeWay.”
https://twitter.com/bellevuepastor/status/1121392634998734848
Gaines was referring to this article by the Executive Director of the ‘Southern Baptists of Texas Convention’:
Jim Richard, “New Leadership in the SBC”
“At LifeWay I would even advocate for a woman to be considered for the president’s position. There have to be hundreds of Southern Baptist women who are capable of running the business/ministry of LifeWay. Diversity has to be intentional.”
https://www.texanonline.net/articles/sbc/new-leadership-in-the-sbc-2/
[Two months later, Ben Mandrell was made President of Lifeway]
Happily married in a thoroughly egalitarian marriage for more than three decades, I weep for regret every day. /s
As much as they like to quote the Bible, they don’t read the whole Bible. Cherry-picking is how they get to where they are. Selective reading. Filtering.
The more Baptists marginalize women, the less relevant they will be to the wider culture.
I also expect an uptick in sexual abuse scandals, the more unfettered authority their patriarchy grabs for itself.
“For example, a housewife in her backyard may be asked by a man how to get to the freeway.”
How did this guy get into my backyard? Bug off, fella. Ask for directions at a gas station.
Of record, even his own sons don’t take his advice. Yet Desiring God attracts young men under his wing, for the father they never had? To be the “sons” who lockstep dutifully follow?
His sons seem to have long ago put dear old dad with his religious crackpot teachings in the corner. Telling. Putting his own family situation up against what the whole Bible teaches about men and women gives a whole different picture of this so-called “icon”. Nothing to be followed or admired. Nothing to see here. A lot of nothing-burger.
Look beyond the words. Observe what they do; turn off the sound to see what’s really going on. Empty words that in no way pan out in real life. Men are not all follow-me leaders that cannot tolerate listening to a woman – how weak and pathetic is that? Women are not all subjects with nothing to say, no voice, no initiative, nothing to offer other than servitude. This very theory reduces men and women to paper cardboard cut-outs unreflective of both being made in the image of God with dignity.
A man who lived out what he believed with purpose, dignity, and great practical impact was Casper ten Boom. He and his whole family, men and women, saved lives. Both his daughters and sons were leaders that were agents of love and courage in their communities. Casper ten Boom was far more than a voice with crackpot religious theories tantalizing the ears. His relationships were spot on Christlike. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Profoundly simple and straightforward. Turns out, it was Casper ten Boom’s daughter, Corrie, that traveled the globe with a message, books, and a Hollywood film about her work and her family.
Instead of John Piper putting women like Corrie ten Boom in the corner, the rest of need to put John Piper in the corner, just like his own sons do, and move on from the nothing-to-see here.
Hi Melissa,like you I was in an ultra, ultra-dispensational church after being saved as a young teenager. They boasted about their similarities to the Plymouth Brethren churches. Thankfully, after about ten years I was able to get out. This was decades ago and while I wasn’t harmed as deeply as you were. Nevertheless, like you, I’m still sorting out the pieces. You are in my prayers for peace and healing. May we both find churches where we are loved and accepted as women.
I had a great night of sleep which doesn’t happen often anymore at my age and I woke up refreshed and happy . . . . . and then I started to read this post! I couldn’t even finish it. But yes, I do believe Piper is becoming unhinged along with all the other dudes who think they are losing their authority. God is judge. But like Max says, there are probably many small congregations out there who are faithfully following God’s word and ignoring the sound and fury. I pray it is so. Me? I will try to follow Henri Nouwen’s advice at the top of the post.
Piper’s comments about ‘women’ are toxic in the sense that he does not regard women as ‘persons made in the image of God and therefore deserving of dignity because of their Creator who made them and sustains them in being’.
It’s the classic mis-interpretation of ‘the Fall’ where Piper sees pursuing the isolation of women from authority as the correct ‘order’ of Creation rather than as one of the actual resulting curses of the Fall.
He has missed the point . . . unable to see his own ‘humanity’ as victim of prideful arrogance and elevating the male sex to levels that demand of it that it ‘looks down’ and holds in ‘contempt’ the full dignity of persons who are female. . . .
his pride ‘shines’ in its arrogant self-importance . . . and condemns him utterly as a failed interpreter of the causes and the consequences of ‘the Fall’.
I’ve never understood why a woman can stand in front of a church and sing the Gospel message and an invitation to profess faith in Christ — but she can’t say it.
In my own personal Bible study on this topic, I didn’t get out of Genesis without seeing 4 basic realities:
God speaks to men through men.
God speaks to women through men.
God speaks to women through women.
God speaks to men through women.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
You mean, “Just roll with it?” 🙂
He would need some cheerleading/support and encouragement to find the courage to ask at a gas station. And you would be to blame if he remained lost… if I’m understanding Piper and Eggerichs rightly/not.
“We have male leadership, the pastoral staff, the ministerial staff, our deacon ministry, as well; we do not even allow women to teach in our couples’ classes. Anytime there are adult men in the group, we have men that are leading in that capacity.” (Mike Stone)
IMO, bible study classes benefit most when the most spiritually equipped to lead the study are allowed to do so … regardless of race, class or gender. I personally have benefited during my 70+ years of doing church in America by sitting under excellent women teachers who knew the Word with the ability to exposit truth clearly (and those were in Southern Baptists churches of old!). The Body of Christ misses so much when those who are gifted are silenced.
Oh my! (Chuckle) What’s he doing in your back yard anyway! Tell him where to go! In a way which doesn’t offend his god-given masculine feels, of course. And if he doesn’t go, call the coppers!
“this extremist approach to female leadership will become the norm and a litmus test”
IMO, this is also a litmus test for God to determine if He can use a body of believers or not. Will church leaders lay their teachings and traditions down long enough for God to work through them and every believer they have been entrusted with? Will they surrender their authority for His and simply trust Him? Will the new “norm” become so abnormal in the Kingdom of God that God doesn’t recognize them anymore?
“a housewife in her backyard may be asked by a man how to get to the freeway. At that point she is giving a kind of leadership. She has superior knowledge that the man needs and he submits himself to her guidance” (John Piper)
I have sat in mixed Bible study classes where everyone in the room knew that there was a “housewife” present who was disciplined and mature in the Word. Yet, she was not allowed to offer “superior knowledge that the man needs” because he refused to “submit himself to her guidance.”
“So, brothers and sisters, what should you do? When you meet together, one person has a song, another has a teaching, and another has a new truth from God. One person speaks in a different language, and another interprets that language. The purpose of whatever you do should be to help everyone grow stronger in faith.” (1 Corinthians 14:26)
Who are we (men) to determine which believer should offer their gifts to help us all grow stronger in faith? Get out of the way and let God!
Any man who will not take driving directions from a woman when she knows the way deserves to get lost.
“Personal NonPersonal
Directive NonDirective”
Well, “personally” I prefer folks in my life who steer me right in a personal and direct way. This nonpersonal/nondirective stuff is for looney-tunes like Piper to sort through.
“It appears he’s making it up as he goes …”
Ahhh, now you have discovered Pied Piper’s secret!
“… and his fan club is buying what appears to be nonsense to me”
And the more nonsensical he gets, the more they idolize him. It’s the darnedest thing I’ve ever seen.
“If I must be honest, I believe John Piper sounds a bit unhinged.”
“Call me sick. Call me deranged. I’m gonna be your worst nightmare. I’m gonna be your hero whether you like it or not!” (Randy Orton, professional wrestler)
I just finished the memoir by Beth Moore “All My Knotted Up Life”. What an amazing book – one of the best books I have ever read.
I have known about Beth Moore for a long time, but have never gone through any of her studies. I might have to do that. I wonder if Piper might consider excommunicating me from the faith since I, a male, am “tempted” to follow one of her studies and did actually read a book by her.
I do wonder though. God obviously raised Beth Moore up to write and conduct Bible studies – for women at least.
I guess the reason that God raised her up is that there was not a man to be found in all the land that was up to the task. 😉
There is one person absent in the question of what can women do, and that is the Holy Spirit.
How do you react when God is doing something that goes against your understanding of the Scriptures? Do you say, “He can’t do that, since the Bible says…”, or do you say, “God is doing this, my understanding must be wrong.”
Jesus came to set us free, He said the last shall be first and the first last, He said we were not to lord it over those under our care like the Gentiles, but rather that the greatest would be a servant.
How do you square that tone with “women can’t…, women can’t…, women can’t…”?
The Spirit of God is not leading the charge in the SBC.
Women run gas stations. Or, is that off-limits, too, since a guy may walk in and ask for directions? Oh my, dangerous move – a guy asking directions from a woman.
As these old men age, and come under the care of women nurses and doctors, what will they do? Refuse care? Not follow the directives of their female physician?
LOL, their gender theories fall apart real fast in real life. Their gender theory is indeed a very small world. Daily we go about our business under the influence of the accomplishments of women throughout the ages. From Mary announcing the resurrection of our Lord, to Madame Curie’s contributions to the healing of cancer, we all benefit from the work and knowledge of women, whether we want to admit it or not.
There is probably a term for this foolishness: ignorant gender theory comes to mind, but surely there is an official diagnosis. The blind leading the blind?
Wasn’t there a WW2 guy who said something like, the bigger the lie, the better?
Churchmen would do well to acknowledge that God sends women, too … with gifts ‘He’ gives them not roles assigned by men. Spiritual giftings are not gender-specific.
If he excommunicated you from ‘his’ faith, it would be a “Praise the Lord” moment for you!
Don’t forget Piper’s other judgement – women aren’t allowed to work out at the gym or lift weights, because that leads to men wanting fast sex.
Nevermind the fact that lifting weights is literally one of the healthiest things we can do to help our bone density later in life. But I guess he just doesn’t care about those things.
What can a woman do? She can run out the door of any church that does not treat her as a fully adult human being. She can find one that does. (Wesleyans, and Wesleyan Holiness, are sort of famous for treating women as equals.)
“Come ye apart” before they make you come apart!
As these old men age, and come under the care of women nurses and doctors, what will they do? Refuse care? Not follow the directives of their female physician?
Ava Aaronson,
Or …… what if a woman gives one of these guys a ticket for a minor traffic violation? …… issues their church a citation for some city code violation?…. drives the tow truck if a deacon’s or elder’s car gets reposed?
Oh my! What if one has to testify on behalf of an accused sex offender and the arresting officer, the judge, the prosecuting attorney, and 3/4 of the jurors are women!!!
That’s just the trouble. Life would be so much easier, more comfortable, and more failed-macho-ego-satisfying if women would just stay in their restricted lanes.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Repossessed, not “reposed”…… Spell check….. I typed in “repoed”.
Piper and his followers should definitely not get on an airplane. If one of the pilots is male and the air traffic controller is a female, yikes!
So air travel needs to be added to the baddy list with hospitals and gas stations.
Are they all forgetting that without a woman, they would not even exist??
1 – Piper creeps out EVERYBODY’S masculinity and femininity.
2 – Piper isn’t in authority. He just likes to sell the Pick of his Piquant Piper Peppercorn Preserve.
3 – Dee, you don’t get the women pastor bit. There was a woman who had recently been an exotic initiator and the grammar is “a” woman. There were several whose husbands (who have been christian prior) wouldn’t talk to them, leaving them behind. According to the apostles, the church and Holy Spirit were supposed to make the husbands abandon Roman stoicism if they had been christian prior.
4 – Women’s position is a genuine decoy (headline) issue.
5 – The TGC / Stott-Fletcher tendency / New Apostolics / Church Society / Archbishops Council and all too many similar crews are out to make us subject to Roman law AS WELL AS a Judaising spirit. Sadducees = resurrection, Ascension and Holy Spirit deniers and hence no Christ = dominionists.
6 – I am not (and this is solely me) going to refuse to join a church because of the way they organise clergydom if they get almost everything else workable to my standards – there aren’t the churches.
linda,
An old-style Assemblies of God I visited in 1973 or 1974 was ministered to by Miss Fisher and Miss something else and the music was lots of trumpets!
I think many Christian leaders, like Piper, imagine God to be obsessed about God’s own power and authority. They imagine God to be constantly thinking about who should be in authority, who gets to tell who what to do, and what is the exact, specific thing he wants everyone to be doing all the time.
I think they relate to God as if he is an authoritarian dictator. They really, truly think God is like a micromanaging, insecure boss constantly looking over their shoulder and more concerned about getting everyone to like him than with the big picture.
For anyone who’s worked for someone like this, you know it’s terrible. Sometimes, I think these Christian leaders must hate God. They must hate feeling the burden of pleasing an impossible-to-please deity who really, really cares they get everything “right” with no grace for their own limitations. I think that if they’d read this paragraph they’d think, “I don’t think about God that way because I know God’s not like that,” but they actually don’t know it.
You know what offends my “mature feminine personhood”?
Having my identity mansplained to me, that’s what.
Piper’s latest remarks are silly and obnoxious, but he has been saying misogynistic things for a long time. In a weird way, I’m grateful for his habit of saying the quiet part out loud. I was raised in a soft comp church. Until I heard the widely respected Piper taking the subordination of women nearer its logical extreme, I didn’t realize how deeply affected I was by even that comparatively mild patriarchy.
6 or so years ago, I read a blog post of Piper’s stating women shouldn’t be police officers or otherwise have “authority” of any sort over men in public contexts, as well as home and church. Including, of course, the dire warnings about social disintegration following such violations of the created order. It was a gut punch. I was already juggling a career, spouse, and kids, and lugging around the constant guilt of not being perfect at it. I knew if Piper’s kind of subservience was what it really meant be a Christian woman, I just…wasn’t one. I couldn’t be. That realization catalyzed a crisis of faith that had been quietly building for what now feels like half my life. I ended up questioning a lot more than gender roles, and it was pretty awful and depressing for a few years. But, I’m working my way out the other side now, and God knows I won’t go back for anything.
TL:DR: Piper’s misogyny made me deconstruct, and I’m much happier and more secure in my faith now.
I don’t know about leaders or teachers, but I’ve certainly felt that myself. It’s bizarre, how people can talk endlessly about the grace, mercy, and love of God in such a way as to produce a felt experience of profound shame and inadequacy.
Quoting Piper above:
“The culture as a whole is in a free fall of denial. … It’s all going to end tragically, the evidences of which are all around us. They make you want to weep when you see what’s happening to young people, what’s happening to relationships, the kind of remorse and regret and carnage that is being unleashed on our culture as a penalty for the free fall denial of God and his ways.
“And the gravitational pull of this free fall is in almost every movie, every online drama, every advertisement, every newscast, so that a person who stands up and draws attention to God’s word or the teaching of nature and questions the wisdom of undifferentiated sex roles will not only be thought a fool, but also unjust and, very likely, soft on abuse, even though all the while the sex-leveling egalitarian impulses wreak havoc at every level of our culture, mocking and distorting the very kind of strength and responsibility and leadership that we so need from men.”
I first encountered this type of hysteria in youth group, decades ago. Societies always have real problems as well as vague anxieties. Some pastors use this rhetoric to help isolate church members, pump them full of fear, and assert control over every big and small decision they make.
It can be tempting to nod along if you really have a Christian objection to some social issue. However, the preacher is not really talking about that one thing. He wants you to join him for the whole experience. It might start, for example, with hating “weird” or “immoral” city people, but it will ultimately end with members of your family, who have questionable hair. Perhaps you yourself will be found wanting.
Beware.
Paul K,
“…I never hear complementarians talk about women in this way.”
++++++++++++++++++++++
You mean Phoebe, the diakonos? elsewhere translated as deacon?
so,’complementarianism’ is a religion within a religion. a system invented by a group lead by Wayne Grudem and John Piper.
the inventors of a religion are the expositors the religion.
everything i’ve read by these nutkins is about promoting men and relegating women to an ever-shrinking box. and calling it beautiful, of course.
as to “I never hear complementarians talk about women in this way”, it’s simply not compatible with the religion, nor a logical outflow of the practice of the religion.
Good point. Maps are a thing, though, and signage. If he doesn’t find the highway, maybe that’s a sign that God wants him to spent the rest of his life here in Boring.
I could scream that there’s a strange man in my back yard and I’m terrified that he’s going to rape me, because (iirc) John Piper et al don’t want a man to be alone with a woman because he’s likely to rape her.
emr,
“I’ve never understood why a woman can stand in front of a church and sing the Gospel message and an invitation to profess faith in Christ — but she can’t say it.”
++++++++++++++++
window dressing.
even the men don’t want a men’s club.
the Rotary Club and Howard Cunningham’s Leopard Lodge from Happy Days get tired of looking at each other in their funny hats.
and they certainly don’t want to deal with food, clean the kitchen or clean the bathrooms either, so after the women sing they can do those things.
although said men will be very noble with chair-straightening & make an exact science of it, straightening and straightening again….
which coincidentally gets all sorted as soon as the women finish cleaning up the church kitchen.
(the above is based on years of direct experience. but certainly no men here would behave in such a way)
CynthiaW.,
““For example, a housewife in her backyard may be asked by a man how to get to the freeway.”
How did this guy get into my backyard? Bug off, fella. Ask for directions at a gas station.”
++++++++++++++++++
huh… do men ask for directions? what with their magic member & all?
Friend,
Christianese for: If we good and righteous men don’t keep women roped, branded, corralled, and bridled with double-bits and short reins, they’re going to destroy everything God created
It’s hard to fathom Piper’s rules, more rules, and rules within rules.
It’s as crazy as Orwell’s 1984.
The thing that really pisses me off with these guys, is that they try to give it a ‘Biblical’ coat of paint.
Try the ELCA brand of Lutheranism.
elastigirl,
Almost everyone has GPS and Google Maps now, but I suppose men ask for directions to the bathroom or the county clerk’s office or whatever, if there isn’t clear signage.
I’m not sure what Mr. Piper was visualizing when he imagined a man’s finding a woman in a back yard to ask for directions. How did he even know she was there?
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
“Or …… what if a woman gives one of these guys a ticket for a minor traffic violation?”
+++++++++++++++++
i think i just updated my bucket list.
CMT,
“TL:DR: Piper’s misogyny made me deconstruct, and I’m much happier and more secure in my faith now”
++++++++++++++
same here. like you, it had been brewing for a number of years.
(although not over gender roles – i was in a very egalitarian place which was good in that respect – but very hierarchically controlling nonetheless.
layer after layer of nonsense kept opening up like a pop-up birthday card, Pennywise-themed.)
after that church imploded, i moved on… into a full frontal assault of gender roles at every church door i darkened, in some kind of last ditch effort at hope against hope.
it was shocking.
yeah, the smiley faces were kind of like Pennywise there, too. i don’t think they realized, though.
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” (Joseph Goebbels, Chief Propagandist for the Nazi Party)
It’s the same technique used for centuries by false prophets in the church. Movements and heresies within Christendom have been based on half-truth, mistruth, and big lies … the “beauty of complementarity”, “Eternal Subordination of the Son” being recent examples.
The last thing any woman should want is finding Piper in her backyard! The guy creeps me out!
All heretics do that.
Women who run gas stations typically have muscles. Piper would be scared to stop there and ask for directions.
I’ve always wondered that very thing about this strange quote. There was a time when servants, children, and the milkman were supposed to go to the back door, but that’s over a half-century ago. It almost reminds me of tales of hoboes in the Great Depression, sincerely asking a woman alone at home for help, or perhaps looking for a victim.
But maybe Piper just thinks women are not to be seen in the front yard, because that would look too much like leadership.
CynthiaW.,
“I’m not sure what Mr. Piper was visualizing when he imagined a man’s finding a woman in a back yard to ask for directions.”
+++++++++++++++++
i reckon depicting a woman surrounded by a fence on owned property was the most convenient way to illustrate that a woman’s existence is contingent on being within the bounds of & under the authority of a man.
if said lost man asked a woman walking down Main Street for directions, she is depicted as free.
if that thought had even occurred to John and he attempted to follow through with it in his illustration, his internal computer would have spluttered, made a crashing sound, & then a final Pac-Man jingle of the descending tones of demise.
he sees no women as free. all women as under the authority of at least some man somewhere at all times — i don’t think even he could convince me this is not in his purview.
Right, and she’s supposed to be non-directive in giving directions to the lost guy. She’s supposed to show submission.
Tell ya what: when a strange man asks me for ANYTHING, I am friendly and helpful as can be, and also very assertive.
This reminds me of a story I recall about my Mama who, over a half century ago and in a very rural area, was working out in our FRONT, UNFENCED yard when a man stopped to ask for directions. The first thing that came out of her mouth was, ‘Please?’ – probably because she was always drilling us kids with the need for manner. But I always loved how she corrected an unknown man’s manners before she gave in to his request.
That sounds so strange … so strange that it could indeed be a Piper rule.
“One of the curses of our modern day is that everything John Piper says is immortalized on the web.” (John Piper)
You wonder if Piper requires every man to change Siri to one of the masculine voices.
‘Complementarianism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their pastors, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.’
…if it’s not careful
I’m not sure what Mr. Piper was visualizing when he imagined a man’s finding a woman in a back yard to ask for directions. How did he even know she was there?
CynthiaW.,
Sounds to me like Piper’s making up a lame excuse for a would-be peeping Tom!
And yet the man is the only one trusted to be a spiritual leader in the church or the home.
Go figure.
What must it be like to be Piper’s wife?
That’s the exact specific thing I’ve always observed in those kinds of churches.
In those places, the Almighty requires constant genuflection, and to have his ego stroked constantly too.
It’s too much like Scarecrow before the great and powerful OZ.
I no longer sign on to that rigmarole.
Micah 6:8 makes way more sense.
It makes about as much sense as screen-doors in a submarine.
this business of ‘under a man’s authority at all times’ seems beyond archaic and more of a symptom of some kind of irrational thinking tinged with emotional immaturity. . .
there seems to be some kind of ‘fear’ of women who are allowed their full potential as human persons . . . but there also seems a bit of malignancy in the insistence on women being ‘lesser’
seems to me Piper suffered from ‘little man’ delusions . . . trying to cut women down to a place where they could be controlled –
you have to feel some pity for Mrs. Piper, yes, if only by inference from some of his stranger attitudes towards women (?)
Knowledge (i.e inference) is luxury, to the wrong kind of puritan.
And in other places it is “the women” referred to, i.e those.
Generic woman is a separate word in greek and the three usages aren’t sloppy like sometimes in colloquial English.
Not all foreign languages are like French where the generic singlular or plural has the same grammar as the specific.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
To me, it’s more like he was trying to think of an example for his instruction, and he came up with something that, as soon as you think about it for a minute, doesn’t make any sense.
There’s a lot of cognitive dissonance in Patriarchy.
R,
Long ago lost to self-deepfaking and self trolling. It’s beyond tragic.
> But What in the World Can a Woman Do?
Taking OT as precedent, perhaps the list of permissible female occupations could include “assassination under cover of hospitality”.
Perhaps it isn’t the nature of the work, so much as the location of the workplace.
Tailoress of fig leaves, a timeless occupation.
I heard that Noel has to walk up three flights of stairs to deliver hot tea to the Pied Piper when he rings a little bell. I’m sure she loves submitting to the tyrant in that way … day after day after day.
I’d be concerned if I was Pastor John that she will become muscle-bound with all that exercise and will someday get tired of the beauty of complementarity … and will put that little bell where the sun don’t shine.
The only hope I have for those poor Piperites is that some morning they will wake up, look at where New Calvinism has taken them, and declare “What the heck were we thinking?!!”
I’m hoping that female believers ensnared by this trap will wake up first and, en masse, will shout “Enough is enough!” and begin dragging their sorry husbands/boyfriends out of the mess.
Max,
People don’t always figure it out, though. Bullies and enforcers punish family members more often than they recognize their own mistakes. The spouse, usually a wife, does what she can to survive. The kids grow up and don’t attend church with zeal. They might even cut off all contact.
Sure, it would be kind of them to tell the bully why, but they remember the time Dad found out they were holding hands without Dad’s authorization.
So bitter old Dad can console himself with the loving and timeless wisdom of Piper: “… a person who stands up and draws attention to God’s word or the teaching of nature and questions the wisdom of undifferentiated sex roles will … be thought a fool.” (Please note sarcasm.)
This should never be in the Church of the Living God. Men who create that environment in their families don’t know God, IMO. America could experience a revival and spiritual awakening if it weren’t for the sorry spiritual condition of men in the church … in my humble, but accurate, opinion.
They probably didn’t notice the balloons either.
Max,
When I was in college, a friend got pregnant during her freshman year. Her boyfriend, a loud, unintelligent bully, proposed to her. Their families supported a quick wedding. I attended.
The pastor preached that God put husbands in charge of wives, because two is an even number, and somebody needs to cast the tie-breaking vote in any disagreement.
In one sense this couple did the right thing, but I still wonder how much choice my friend had before this pregnancy and especially after, given the pastor’s marching orders. At a minimum, my friend lost her chance for a college education.
Lie back and Accept while the man PENETRATES! COLONIZES! CONQUERS! PLANTS!, what else?
Just like in Pornograph, but CHRISTIAN(TM).
I understand John Nelson Darby (inventor of The Rapture), founded the Plymouth Brethreh.
And infamous occultist Aliester Crowley, AKA “The Great Beast” was raised STRICT Plymouth Brethren.
Crowley’s entire adult life seems to have been one long “F!U!” to that upbringing.
Sez the ManaGAWD who looks like a 5’4″ skinny wimp and acts list a feminine histrionic with a constant case of The Vapors.
Reichshsminister Goebbels.
(Similar in stature and build to the Pious Piper.)
Who also invented today’s common Christian Witnessing tactic:
“Effective Propaganda consists of Simplification and Repetition.”
AKA “Masculine Musculatyre in women begets Unnatural Arousal in a man.”
Besides being yet another unwanted look into a ManaGAWD’s sexual kinks, also brings to mind Julie Brown’s “Johnny, Are You Queer?”
You mean just like HOMOSEXUALITY(TM)?
Considering the Pious Piper’s size and masculine musculature, any woman – even a non-Muscular one – should have no trouble folding him up and tossing him in a dumpster.
As in this dirty schoolyard rhyme from the early Sixties?
“Close yo eyes
And spread yo legs
So Ah can fertilize yo eggs”
(Which I remember being said in some sort of pseudo-Ebonics accent; it was always the absent ethnicity who gets to be the butt of any race jokes.)
Same way he knew about all those young people saddened by making out “at the river”; a set of binoculars and some good concealment.
You serve him his tea when he rings the servant’s bell for it.
Up three flights of stairs to his study where he’s studying Theology.
An All-Powerful Egomaniac whose murderous Wrath is always on a hair trigger, where you stay alive by constant Flattery, Praise, and Adoration.
If that were a mortal parent or caregiver, wouldn’t he/she be a Psychopath and Raging Abuser?
No, DOUBLETHINK.
Friend,
Yup
Max,
I just about spit my coffee out on that one
I have to disagree here. In no sense did they do the right thing unless they actually loved each other. The child is better off with parents apart if one is a bully.
You mean just like HOMOSEXUALITY(TM)?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
HUG, on SBCVoices a male commenter posted, just last night, that, “Feminism always leads to homosexuality.”
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Why are some Christians so obsessed with human sexuality?
Some random truly Biblical man and women thoughts (I think lol):
God did not put man in charge in Eden. He put humanity in charge, male and female. And He did not put Eve in subjection after the fall. He pointed out the fall meant males would be sinful and want to dominate, and that while childbirth would be painful women would still desire men. And no, don’t get into Cain and sin desiring him as a cause to blame women for wanting to rebel. You cannot rebel against someone who is not your authority now can you?
But guess what? Jesus passed the tests Adam and Eve flunked. He completed the tasks the “elder son” Israel failed at doing. And He reversed the curse.
In Christ there is no male or female, Jew or Greek, slave or free.
Just saved human beings.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
We need a “eye roll” meme on this blog..
Muff Potter,
That is a great queston Muff.. What I always find interesing is that in Dante’s circle of hell, Lust is second of eight levels, with “eight” the worst… American Christainity has VERY different levels..
Ah, good point.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Good explanation, thanks.
Jeffrey Chalmers,
you’re welcome 🙂
I don’t mean to be crass, but this NeoCal bunch makes me lose my Christianity every once in a while. When will this madness end?!
I don’t mean to be crass, but this NeoCal bunch makes me lose my Christianity every once in a while
Max,
With all due respect, I think you are wrong, Max. You do not lose your Christianity. You are truly and righteously indignant with that bunch.
As far as Piper and his bell: (Though I wish his wife would ring his bell, and good!). I have come to the conclusion that John Piper never been strong enough, nor had the “manly” endurance, to make it up and down those stairs more than once or twice a day, so he needs someone to cater to him when he gets thirsty. His wife is probably the only person available to cater to the invalid on a regular basis.
(Tee hee. Three flights of stairs???…… bats in the belfry???)
Bridget,
I’ll be indirect here and say there were several possibilities other than marriage for the sake of legitimacy—which was what the couple and their parents had in mind. It certainly looked like a mismatch to me.
When it comes to NeoCal idols and their aberrant teachings, I try to be angry but sin not (Ephesians 4:26-27) when I think of all the damage they have done.
Don’t your really mean “nondirect”? 🙂
Headless Unicorn Guy,
He and his empire built a tower to try to reach heaven: the theology of Nimrod, a mighty brigand against the Lord.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Surely he makes a good living and could hire someone to fetch for him. It’s not impossible, though, that – for all he seems like a real turkey in public – his wife loves him and is happy to make herself useful to him … or enjoys a sense of superiority because she can climb stairs and he can’t.
Hear tell, by the man himself in one of his talks, it was actually a doorbell installed in his 3rd floor study, that rang in the 1st floor kitchen while he was upstairs working and he wanted something. God’s work required uninterrupted focus. He mentioned this in one of his talks. It was one of their piety practices as a couple.
However, he retired, they sold their 3-story home, and moved somewhere. So what is their system now? He’ll have to update us sometime. He speaks with pride about this type of thing.
He and his wife are proud of their little systems. His sons? Not so much, and the sons are very public about this. The DG boys follow after their mentor, however, so there’s that.
In our home, we have no such internal doorbell systems. We just yell or do a dance to get someone’s attention. And everyone can serve themselves tea OR all take turns serving everyone. No hierarchy. Especially not for tea. Doorbell commanding tea would not be good tea. Funny taste.
How about y’all?
Ava Aaronson,
Had that been my household Ava, I would have long ago equipped that 3rd floor office with a microwave, mini fridge and tea supplies!
On another note, I think it may have been you Ava, who mentioned Sam Powell and his ministry before and commented that he was ‘one of the good guys’. In that vein, he has on his heart to begin a study possibly leading to a book on marriage. You can check him out and support as led at sampowellministries.com. I have found his teaching to be on spot and very encouraging and helpful.
it was actually a doorbell installed in his 3rd floor study, that rang in the 1st floor kitchen while he was upstairs working and he wanted something. God’s work required uninterrupted focus.
Ava Aaronson,
What’d he do if he had to go potty……. wear diapers???
“Bring me my tea NOW, woman!”
Ava Aaronson,
Black coffee … three pots per day … it’s kept my wit and wisdom sharp for decades … no doorbells, no yells, I make it and get it, fix my wife a cup and take it to her. We have a complementarian marriage – our spiritual gifts complement each other, she preaches at me, I preach at her, it’s worked for 60 years.
AMEN !
Max,
Ava said Piper ringing a bell for his wife was part of their piety practices……..
So, Piper thinks a wife’s piety is at least partially dependent upon a Pavlov’s dog type of response from her when hubby rings a bell???
Linda, it’s truly amazing that so many churchmen just don’t get that … that their desire to dominate and oppress female believers with rotten theology is greater than their love for Jesus and each other.
“By this shall all men know that you are My disciples, IF you have love for one another.” (John 13:35)
Sadly, so many church folks fail that spiritual litmus test. As an old song goes “Thinking they are heaven bound, but living life upside down.”
the “beauty of complementarity”?!
Or send out the dogs! Pepper spray might also work.
Amen!
Proverbs 31. King Lemuel’s mother’s words that she taught him! I hope you told him all of that before he was 10, 11, 12, 13 ….. wait what is the cut off age where teaching boys is a “no no?”
That Biblical Allusion sounds like a real stretch.
Not everything has to have Biblical Allusion/proof.
Ring his bell or clean his clock?
Because Christians are as screwed-up sexually as everyone else; they just show it different.
(COme to think of it, both Dr. Freud and FBI Profilers would have a field day with some of these MenaGAWD.)
Except maybe as a Freudian slip.
2,000 years after the Resurrection was first proclaimed by two women in Jerusalem and 100 years after women got the vote, we are dealing with this insanity? Any woman hearing this nonsense from her husband or pastor needs to apply a cast iron frying pan to the side of his head. As for me, every time I hear it I become more determinedly egalitarian.
Such hypocrisy!
Guess which Southern Baptist bigwig’s wife was the recipient at this year’s SBC Annual Meeting, of the award named for a lady preacher?
CynthiaW.,
So much for John Piper being a gifted theologian and a deep thinker…….
Personally, I love John. However I struggle with this one. Joni Erickson Tada is the case in point. Piper has had her speak at his Desiring God Conference. I was there.
She was speaking to men. I understand it was not a church service, but there were hundreds of pastors there.
https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/hope-the-best-of-things
Plus, she leads a fairly large organization, Joni and Friends. She is over men. Is that wrong?
I’m no theologian, but I suspect God divvied up authority among humans so that we can help and protect and encourage one another. So then, all this authority and power comes with responsibility and an expectation that there will be good fruits (good results). Since some of these church “leaders” have grabbed power from other believers, these church “leaders” may be expected to produce the good results that went with the stolen power. There may come a Day when they will have to answer some hard questions.
In the Kingdom, power and authority always comes with an expectation of results that will benefit the whole Body. God doesn’t give authority just to make us look important. For all their years of grasping for power, have these people made the Church better…..or worse?
These clownheads are single-handedly clearing out the churches of people who love God, people for whom Jesus died and gave His life and blood, turning them away from God, in exchange for more and more power. And no matter how much power they keep stealing from women and others, it never satisfies them; next month they’ll come up with more rules to silence and disempower them further.
They still live in that house, 1801 11th Ave S Minneapolis. Google maps will show it to you. It’s public information. He’s lived there since 1980. They moved to Louisville for 1 year and moved back.
I disagree with the comment that he does not believe that women are made in the image of God.
Plus, just so you know, Bethlehem Baptist has female Deacons. 4 of 10
https://bethlehem.church/about/staff/campus/undefined/position/deacon/
Unfortunately, you are incorrect. He has been a runner for at least 40 years. He ran 3 miles a day until his 76 year old knees starting giving out. He’s in very good shape.
Every time a lifelong runner summons his wife with a doorbell, an angel gets his wings.
Then he should have been running up & down those stairs to get his own tea, rather than summoning Noel. But, I understand they’ve moved to a new place, so hopefully he is closer to the teapot now to fix his own brew. I do.
Bob M,
If I understand it, it was a Piper-style practice of male leadership and female submission:
He says, “Jump!”.
She meekly asks, “How high?”
He says, “3 stories.”
……. and she humbly submits.
Max,
“We have a complementarian marriage – our spiritual gifts complement each other, she preaches at me, I preach at her, it’s worked for 60 years.”
+++++++++++++++++++
yin and yang. fluid & always tilting and changing. sometimes more yin and less yang, sometimes more yang and less yin, occasionally equally matched.
.
.
-here’s an unnecessary visual, but i’m bored:
my grandparents had a coffee table curiosity – a clear, flat oval full of two-tone sand;
you’d tilt it one way the sand would shift so one color was more prominent;
you’d tilt another way & the sand would shift another way and the other color would be more prominent;
move it around weird and the colors would mingle.
always changing, rearranging.
so is close human relationship (say, marriage).
Then here’s another visual for you! Noel goes to the bathroom … Pastor John rings the bell … Noel has business to do .. the bell keeps ringing and ringing and ringing … Pastor John wants his tea NOW! … what’s a complementarian to do?! … at that moment, the beauty of complementarity is just too much to take … there must be a Scripture for times like this?
I’m surprised that those pastors didn’t stand up and turn their back on Sister Joni when she began to speak! Hundreds of “pastors” did that to Anne Graham Lotz once. But, I suppose it’s harder to do the wrong thing when the female speaker is sitting in a wheelchair.
Joni is an obviously gifted “preacher.” A great multitude have benefited from her ministry over the years, have come to Christ through her testimony, have grown in faith under her teaching. One only has to know her story and see the fruit of His work in her life, to know He put her in a position of leadership for such a time as this. There is nothing wrong about it. Praise God for her. Shame on men who think she needs to be silenced … she’s on a mission for the Master … her critics are not.
Envy.
Max,
Glad you posted this comment, Max! I missed the “over men” part.
She is over men. Is that wrong?
Bob M,
Well Bob, can you see her going up and down 3 flights of stairs to meet the expectations of a John Piper wannabe dear hubby?
I think you’re onto something.
You know, that was what a CHRISTIAN marriage was supposed to be.
NO companionship, just preaching at each other.
Purely a tongue in cheek comment, HUG. I was young, now am old. My wife and I have been companions since high school. After becoming Christians, we have learned from each other as we read Scripture and share – “preaching” at each other. I suppose it’s a form of “complementarian” marriage because our spiritual gifts complement each other, with neither one feeling superior to the other and no patriarchal hierarchy nonsense around here.
You’re funny. At least.
Bob M,
When I think about John Piper, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.
I’ve decided that crying is the better response. Not from feminine weakness or wiles, mind you. Piper uses a formula of hyperbole, conflations, wacky notions, and occasional facts. He stirs people up and leads them from love and understanding to destructive dominance. This is propaganda in the home, compatible with violence there and elsewhere.
Unfortunately, a whole movement has been birthed under his influence … New Calvinism. The damage has been done … Piperites are now occupying pulpits across America. No one ever uses “love” to describe NeoCals … “arrogance” is the first word that pops to mind, with “heresy” a close second. Piper has caused a generation seeking God to drift off-course, living up to his nickname “Pied Piper.”
Max,
In the past, when people left churches for unhappy reasons, they were often hurt or worn down, and therefore kept their reasons to themselves. Churches trained people not to complain—not good. More laudably, they trained members to temper their own worst inclinations.
Now, though? Some church leaders relish a fight. They encourage aggressive behavior. What happens when irrationally angry members leave? Does their departure help or hurt the church they left? What do they do with their curated resentments?
Friend,
I’m still firmly convinced that these guys hate women.
Well, they certainly don’t acknowledge and respect their spiritual gifts … or they would release them to fulfill their true roles in the Kingdom of God rather than the kingdoms of men.
Bob M,
But she sits down so she doesn’t count towards this.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Ah but, for a Pied one, to be a mighty brigand, might take a dark art . . .
Good Lord! I’m surprised that women even want to go to church these days! Sit down, shut up, oppression, suppression, mere derivatives of men, theo-baloney regarding their roles, can’t exercise spiritual gifts, abused in various ways … definitely not heaven on earth for them in the miserable condition of certain corners of the American church.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
(continued)
It’s secular as well. The legends of the Lords (or Lady) of Aratta (near Eden) were protests against the takeover of their religions by YRR-like hegemony.
It’s about not supporting attempts at eliminating by strangulation (same point as Max was making at 6.17). Don’t worry, it’s a raw nerve for me as well.
Muff Potter,
The shame of those compromising with materialism up to 1983, which they offloaded onto innocents in that form.
Bob M,
Eternal Submission Of The Son of course – his “god” is too small!
Ariel,
Exactly my point about Nimrod, well put by you.
Is he named after John Wayne?
Max,
Of course, there are churches where women can participate fully, but they have that all-important terrible baggage: acceptance. We can’t accept acceptance, now, can we?
I appreciate you, Max.
Except the ones “listening” there like cabbages, of course. The aspiring fringes, looking in. Living in the inner circle of their “gods” in their fantasies.
By overdosing on William James’ corner cutting and Bismarckian high handedness, most religious bodies (over here as well) have abandoned the principle of principle.
That’s known as the Body of Christ … where there is no distinction in race, class or gender … one in Christ. Anything less than that is doing church without God.
Maybe not a verse, but a song. “You can ring my bellllll, ring my bell!!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsBak0oCgdY
Bob M,
I see your “Ring My Bell” and raise you one “Ding-a-Ling”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiCSSIEUukk
Not going to happen. It’s all about power and control; nothing to do with distance and reason. Wifey is on a tether. The lie of the godly tether. Nothing godly about it.
Man and woman, God created them both in His own image. Whether from dust or a rib bone, both were created in God’s image with equal dignity and agency.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
“Bye, Bye Johnnie”
https://youtu.be/zdNH78oEHpE
With agency, just like God created both man and woman.
We go with God, and in the dignity of being made in the image of our Creator God.
Would make a good title for a book … revealing the ails of complementarianism … full of horror stories about authoritarian patriarchal church leader monsters, women in theo-bondage, and a great multitude of victims left in their wake.
A major reason I’m a 67 years old and my only girlfriend was 40 years ago is because I was longing for COMPANIONSHIP when everything around me (including pressure from my family) was pushing for SEX. There can be no Companionship with a necessary piece of equipment for the SEX.
On the Christian end, there also can be no Companionship with an Utterly Pure Angel in the House or in the Beauty of Complementarity – How can you have Companionship with a totally spiritual being or with some THING you have to keep on a leash and under your feet 24/7?
When it comes to SEX, Christians are every bit as screwed up as everybody else. They just show it differently.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Why would God not inspire Scripture to include secular references?
In fact I had this written but cut it out:
Nimrod’s force seized the Lords or Lady of Aratta (region near Eden) (symbol for a remnant hint or echo of true religion) not to just place them / her alongside other captive statues but to assimilate that religion entirely. (This was approx 1,000 years prior to Abraham.) Don’t be superstitious or sensationalist because our God isn’t. An incompatible influx of peoples dispersed once more, amid miscellaneous disaster as it happened contingently in that scenario. (It was an era of land reclaiming.)
Nabuna’id father of Belshazzar may have been the particular so called “Nebuchadnezzar” in the grass eating story (names got changed if they were sensitive, e.g Dr Foster, or Athens in Plato). Eat grass = worship Sin (moon) (complex relation with “luna” -tic) in Tayma instead of governing in person; discerned as religious deception in this case interspersed with periodic acknowledgements of a true God. Though there had been a battle upriver, Cyrus’ troops “delivered” the city unopposed.
The genuine purpose of scholarship (by those that did this) is not to pooh-pooh scholarship. Reviewing literature is incremental.