In order to protect and support the healing process of the victim and her family, we have removed this post. There are no legal matters or concerns associated with removal of this post.
Pleaase contact Dee with any questions.
The Wartburg Watch 2024
Dissecting Christian Trends
Christ Covenant Church, under Harry Reeder, seems to have had a culture of sexual abuse as we see in this story and the story of many male victims of youth pastor David Lee Wood. Christ Covenant Church has tried to cover up the facts of this case that involves a number of abuse victims who were youth members at CCC. For years CCC tried to discourage the men from telling their truth and Dr. Ross, one of the Sr. Pastors at CCC told one of the victims not to come on the property again. I hope the courts in NC let abuse victims file civil suits against the organizations who also abused them. The case was just heard in the Court of Appeals. I am very hopeful these victims will get their day I’m court and no longer be silenced.
Thank you, Elisha for sharing your story. Thank God you have your voice to tell the truth about another Youth Pastor user and abuser and what you, unfortunately experienced firsthand (for real) with him. It’s very disturbing, utterly gross, incredibly selfish on his part, all from memories a young woman never forgets. Your story reads like an experience with a guy who is full of himself, an ego-maniac. Do all guys treat young inexperienced women like this as a rite of passage? No, absolutely not.
The Youth Pastor walked all over a young woman and then moved on, demanding silence on the young woman’s part. She was just supposed to disappear? Really? After all the hand jobs he orchestrated, using her hand?
God doesn’t diminish the Youth Pastor violating a young woman. God doesn’t forget. God knows who grabbed whose hand and put it on his privates, so who didn’t keep his privates private. God knows who insisted that the woman he violated keep his abuse private. It is not a secret. A man pulls out his thing on an unsuspecting woman, and then that private thing is now public. On a plane. In a family home. Etc. She didn’t see it coming. In all of these inappropriate situations. It is a violation. At the very least it is sexual harassment.
The part from the now-established pastor and his cohort regarding:
-everybody sins so what’s the big deal with “a line was crossed” (he used the young woman to perform his hand jobs …)? From the soccer superstar? (Athletes that violate women are no superstars.)
-a right of passage for an up-and-coming pastor, don’t they all orchestrate hand jobs with a young woman then put her down and walk away? Use her family home and then demand she disappear? (No, they don’t.)
-the pastor is all good now, see he’s married with children & pastoring our church, but PLEASE keep his inappropriate hidden past of using people hidden?
-though the pastor is in a public position, don’t go public with his true self, his secret self, what he does when no one is looking, how he treats vulnerables as he climbs his ladder to successful pastoring, how he degraded a young woman, walking all over others on the way to the top …?
– not buying it.
If the Youth Pastor had robbed a bank, he’d owe the money. In this case, he violated a young woman, then demanded she disappear. That’s wrong. He doesn’t remember. That’s even worse. Either he’s got loss of memory or no conscience.
What a Youth Pastor does to young women matters. What an established pastor (even one now married with kids) did to young women when he was a Youth Pastor, matters, even years later. The young woman has had to deal with those land mines he planted in her life. She’s had to deal with the land mines on her own for a long, long time. A man who walks all over others on his way to the top does not belong at the top. That’s not character, that’s bullying.
Jesus was no bully nor is the Body of Christ led by bullies. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control are the fruits of the Spirit. These are the qualities of leadership in the Body of Christ. These qualities are in no way evident in the story of what this Youth Pastor did to Elisha.
Whoever is supporting and paying for no conscience, no memory, lack of character leaders in church is complicit. God expects more. We can set the expectation by following Jesus’ example. God doesn’t need superstar athletes. He needs superstar characters that don’t walk all over young women with their privates, then dump women, then demand women’s silence, and then demand that the women disappear.
Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself, with kindness, dignity, grace, and honor. That’s Jesus and the Body of Christ. It’s also leadership, the real leadership, in the Body of Christ.
The legal ramifications of all this I do not know, but ecclesiologically, Elisha should contact the presbytery over these issues if she does not believe the repentance to have been demonstrated.
TS Griffin,
Would you be willing to tell me more about this? You can email me dee@thewartburgwatch.com.
Robert,
You can be sure they are being contacted since this post has been made public.
Dee, I believe you exercise sound judgement, but something does not sit right in my mind with this being posted. It is the first time I have felt this way and cannot put my finger on it. I do appreciate the work you do and I believe it is necessary.
After reading the story, I am thinking about the countless women over the years that have endured all kinds of abuse like this and never had a voice or a mechanism like the internet to help shine a light into the darkness. Even in my family, in the generations before mine, some accounts have come to light that are like 70 years in the past. It was just ignored at the time.
Cliff Notes version of the responses from Payne and the church elders: **Sheeeesh. Boys will be boys. Get over it, already.**
It’s unholy how they use such holy words to say something so crude and heartless.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I understood it more as that Mr. Payne knows what he did was really bad, but it’s been buried a long time, and accepting any consequences would cause a huge disruption in his life as he knows it. He put it way down under many layers of concrete, like a murder victim in the basement, and he thought it would never come up again.
I’m interested in the timeline. It sounds like he was already in a relationship with his now-wife at the time of the something-under-a-year duration of his involvement, including engagement, with Elisha Boggs.
He doesn’t remember the details. That’s what happens when you’re just using another human being as an object. It didn’t even leave enough of an impact on him for him to recall.
“But in our relationship there began to be physical affection; and, on a few occasions, lines were clearly crossed.”
He deflects responsibility implying mutuallity by using “our relationship” and then going into the passive voice “lines were clearly crossed.”
Doesn’t sound repentant to me. You cannot repent of that which you do not take responsibility for. Repentant words would be “I clearly crossed lines that never should have been crossed.”
Plus, the timeline suggests cheating. My cheater used almost verbatim words when finally confessing sexual crossing of lines.
I never stop being amazed at how these dirt-bags still get away with it.
We are living in a time when this kind of s|-|it is no longer tolerated in the secular world.
It is my fervent hope that the church world will smell the coffee and realize that they can no longer conduct business as usual with regard to sexual abuse.
Only halfway through the post and have to say,
Nope Nope Nope.
What he did to Elisha is not “crossing the line.” “Crossing the line” would have been something MUTUALLY agreed to in the heat of the moment. What he did was use her body for his own selfish pleasure.
And since he’s the one who brought his wife into this discussion, I’m going to throw this out there. But this does NOT bode well for his marriage, either.
Exactly.
Nowhere in God’s Word is it ever said or implied that “boys will be boys”. Nor does it say, “Get over it” to the person who was violated. Never.
Sin is never: “lines were crossed” or “something happened”, passively. Never.
On the other hand, twice it is written both in Luke 3.8 and Acts 3.8: Repentance requires fruit. Evidence.
The dirt bag told the young woman to disappear. That’s how he got away with it.
Fortunately, for goodness sake, she’s back. Sunlight cleanses. Walk in the light as God is light, and we have fellowship with one another. The woman is walking in the light. She came forward and put everything into the light. The pastor, her former Youth Pastor and fiancé, is still in the shadows, dodgy – where he demanded she go and stay there. She did not. He still expects her to live in darkness. Fortunately, she has refused, and has taken the high road. It’s difficult and painful for her, but she has brought everything into the light. God bless her. May God cleanse his church, the Body of Christ, and fill the church full of light.
1 John 1:5-7, World English Bible, Public Domain
“This is the message which we have heard from Jesus and announce to you, that God is light, and in God is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with God and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. But if we walk in the light, as God is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, God’s Son, cleanses us from all sin.”
“Two months later you told me you were getting married.”
My opinion: He had two women at the same time, but they didn’t know about each other. He is a player. He was using one for his sexual gratification so he could pretend to be pure for the other one while pursuing his/their future in the church.
I knew men like him.
1 What have the joint and several Board of Trustees for Westminster Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Newcastle, England, and the Banner of Truth Trust, Edinburgh, Scotland (hesitantly quoting wording given above as exactly as I can) said and done and what are they going to?
2 How many “Westminster Seminaries” do we have to have on this planet?
2-Timer with a double image of public image but private real life:
1 woman for his superstar Christian chaste image of pastor purity & decency and her hand in marriage.
1 younger inexperienced innocent adoring woman for trashing her with his raw sex hand-jobs, using her hand, but neither kisses nor affection nor kindness, then tossing her aside & disappearing her after using her, discarding her, swearing her to secrecy (which he still demands, he and his cohort’s “don’t make this public” outcry to squash the truth of his secret user and abuser self), not even remembering what he did to her – supposedly.
The devil is the guy with the forked tongue.
Jesus and His followers walk in the light.
Question 1:
Who is the real guy?
Question 2:
Who knows the real guy – the wife & his play-along constituency paying-his-salary congregation OR the woman that had her hand grabbed to stroke/stoke his thing thereafter he told to disappear and please don’t tell my public what I did/do?
This duplicitous lifestyle is neither new nor uncommon. Look at our celebrities, CEOs and public figures living in glamorous shadows with their 50 shades. Any guy with money can afford a mistress and a lot of guys grant themselves this (albeit filthy) privilege.
The problem is when a charming attractive superstar athlete PASTOR claims to follow Jesus and walk in the LIGHT, but there’s a dirty Dark Side that is very real to those who are unfortunate enough to be deceived, confronted, and assaulted by the wolf in shepherd’s clothing. Yikes! Take a shower, and scrub one’s hands after filthy contact with a deceiver.
Does anyone want their daughter going through this experience with a pastor/deceiver? Never. Neither does Jesus desire this for His daughters of the Kingdom of God. Jesus is light and has nothing to do with a guy pulling out his thing then grabbing an unsuspecting woman’s hand in completely inappropriate places while demanding secrecy of the woman then discarding her. Disappear & make my dirty deeds go away, too, girl.
Jesus doesn’t operate that way. Jesus loves and respects women for real, not as a disguise while doing dirty in the background. There is NO dirty superstar celebrity golden guy background with Jesus, but only truth and light.
‘I guess there is more to Jon’s life that has not been communicated to the elders.’
Guaranteed.
1 – Thank you Dee for drawing the English “presbyterians” to my attention. It turns out I am closer to them than I had thought (but no doubt some of them will disagree on that).
2 – (details pasted from a few hours ago)
https://www.presbyterianseminary.org.uk/consultants-advisors
Extracts from trustee descriptions:
Dr Donald John MacLean is an elder in Cambridge Presbyterian Church where he preaches regularly. He is a Trustee of the Banner of Truth and editor of Foundations, the theological journal of Affinity … (hereby omitting family details)
Rev Dr Jon Payne … serves as the organising pastor of Christ Church Presbyterian in Charleston, South Carolina. He previously served for ten years as pastor of Grace Presbyterian Church in Douglasville, GA. He is the Executive Coordinator of the Gospel Reformation Network and also a trustee with the Banner of Truth Trust.
{ This may be a different person with the same name. No family details omitted. Specific link:
https://www.presbyterianseminary.org.uk/trustees/rev-dr-jon-payne }
Rev Benjamin Wontrop … minister of All Saints Presbyterian Church, completed his theological studies at Edinburgh Theological Seminary, Westminster Presbyterian Theological Seminary and Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. In 2016, having obtained a Masters of Divinity, he took up a call at the Presbyterian Church of Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk. In the spring of 2019, he was called back to the Northeast and to All Saints … (hereby omitting family details)
And consultant descriptions:
Rev Dr Joseph Pipa … was the Director of Advanced Studies and Associate Professor of Practical Theology at WTS in CA from 1990 until February 1998. There he directed the Doctor of Ministry program and also taught systematic, historical, and practical theology on the Master’s level. He was also the pastor of Trinity Presbyterian Church in America in Escondido, CA. As of January 1, 1998, Dr. Pipa became the first President of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Greenville, SC, where he and his wife now live.
Rev Dr David Garner … is Academic Dean, Vice President of Global Ministries, and Professor of Systematic Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary.
A graduate of the University of North Carolina (BS, 1987), Dallas Theological Seminary (ThM, 1992) and Westminster Theological Seminary (PhD, 2002), David Garner has served in theological education, pastoral ministry, missions, and parachurch ministries since 1986. He has lived and taught in various parts of the world, including Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Asia.
Mr Joe Fowler is an attorney at Hartley Rowe & Fowler, PC. His legal practice is concentrated in the areas of general civil litigation, wills, estates and trusts, as well as local government. For many years, he has served as General Counsel to several local county governmental bodies responsible for industrial development, utility services, and public and senior housing.
TS Griffin,
Agreed. My heart is broken and angered for all of those who suffered abuse that was swept under the rug at CCC. The response from the current elders at Jon’s church exemplifies how deep the dysfunction in the PCA goes.
The story is especially heartbreaking for me since I knew everyone named. I was a member of CCC from the mid 1980s to the early 2000s. The reformed theology was preached in such a manner it always came across as part of the good news. Which, obviously it isn’t but sadly for me I was like a frog in the kettle and slowly boiled into reformed theology, until I truly became a Pharisee. I am ashamed of some of my thoughts and attitude towards others who were not of the reformed theology. When I finally left the church in the early 2000s and went to another church, I felt like I had been freed from such small, petty, narrow, thinking regarding the Good News. I was truly free to bask in my salvation and the Christ God sent.
On a separate note, probably about four or five years before the Jon Payne incident there was a very similar incident with a married youth pastor and one of the high school students. That was covered up. So I would assume during that time there was definitely a culture of protect the church at all costs.
This is a devastatingly heartbreaking story and I weep for Elisha, who as a young naive girl, was used and abused by that man, while at the same time, I applaud her for speaking out about it now. May God be near to her. As for ‘Pastor Jon’, what is the likelihood that he treated or now treats his wife any differently? Can a leopard change his spots?
This story is so dark. That Elisha carried this burden alone for 25 years and has the fortitude to bring it to light just to be met with “my life turned out great so don’t spoil it” is terrible.
The youth pastor sounds like the kind of guy that beats up prostitutes.
What I found most fascinating is that he only claims to have failed in the “honor and respect” department. What exactly does that encompass? If someone was apologizing to me for “honor and respect” infractions I would assume he gossiped or embarrassed me, not sexually abused me. Plus, he’s only dealing with sins of omission. Dudes need to think broader and wrap in those sins of commission too.
The abusive PCA pastor I encountered was too famous to be faulted for anything by the denomination. But some of his elders were pointed out to have exhibited a “lack of wisdom.” Uh huh. There’s that omission side again. They “repent” for one half of an equation and not for the half containing the much more serious sins of actually hurting someone.
The PCA seems to have elders that don’t just refuse to repent but also don’t seem to know how.
TS Griffin,
I look forward to speaking with you about these horrific events. Maybe we can bring some attention to it.
Ava Aaronson,
Thank you for your lovely and thoughtful comment. I wish I had said some of those things. That happens a lot when I read your comments.
George,
Let me know if you come up with why this shouldn’t have been posted. I cannot think of one. It is a story buried and then resurrected.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I know this is what they think, which is what they thought in my former church. That is. The reason I made sure they understood exactly what occurred. I think other lessons are coming.
Jesus said they used all kinds of ‘holy wurdz’ when they forclosed on widow’s houses too.
CynthiaW.,
The elders did sound like they wanted to blow this off while using appropriate pious language. Payne was in a Reformed seminary, learning to be a pastor while doing this. If they had known, they might have booted him.
If he did this, he may have done it to others. That is my experience. The church, seminary, etc., now have a hot potato on their hands.
This is a fantastically insightful comment. I will make sure Elisha sees this.
Great insight. Did you read the CS Lewis quote at the top of the post? I bet you would agree with it. I am so sorry for what happened to you and am always glad to see you here on this soul-crushing blog. 🙂
Muff Potter,
I am as frustrated with the church in this area as you are.
I loved your comment. I agree with you.
Well said. I wonder if it was only two? I don’t believe anything he says.
Thunder only happens when it’s raining
Players only love you when they’re playing…
— Stevie Nicks 1977 —
LOL!!
We will find out what they say or if they say anything. I plan a follow-up when other info becomes available.
John Berry,
You made me laugh.
Given their refusal to act on some abuse measures this week, they will find this post very difficult. God planned this timing.
Holly,
Thank you for this information. Would you be willing to share with me what you know? It will be totally confidential. If you are willing, send me a note at dee@thewartburgwatch
jojo,
Good analysis.
You speak the truth here. I wonder the same.
I agree. The elders sound out of their depth. They obviously want to defend their guy, but unless they’re completely oblivious – which is not out of the question – they have to know that this is really bad and very likely to get worse.
In a way, it’s all Mr. Payne’s fault, but in another way, other people in his milieu should have seen red flags in his talk about his pre-ordination “sinful” lifestyle. “What, exactly, do you mean by that?” would have been a good question, more than 20 years ago. “What sorts of specific things did you do that are potentially going to wreck your whole life 20 years from now?”
I would love to hear more about this story.
Sounds like nothing has changed.
Sounds like nothing has changed.
Todd Wilhelm,
Given their recent statements and their recent vote, I am completely convinced that they do not want anything to change. The only “sin” that could ever possibly damage the “peaceful and pure” status of the PCA would be giving women a voice.
FYI… Steven Furtick’s Elevation Church has left the SBC.
https://baptistnews.com/article/another-megachurch-leaves-the-sbc/
the enemy wants to keep things hidden in darkness, God’s way is the light!
John 3:19-21
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
dee,
May the force be with you.
Westminster Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Newcastle, England was founded in 2013 though didn’t become a formal charity until 2020 (England requires a few hoops for official charitable status). It seems to have been a plant of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary. Since he is a trustee it is only the trustees who can get rid of him. However the board of trustees is only three men. The others being Donald John MacLean (who like Payne is a trustee of Banner of Truth) and Benjamin Wontrop
Banner of Truth Trust, Edinburgh, is a publishing house/event organizer established in 1958 in London and moved to Edinburgh in 1972/3. It has 10 trustees
Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia split from Princeton Theological Seminary in 1929 (it was on the conservative side of an argument). Unlike the other two seminaries, women can pursue non-pastoral degrees. Also Payne is adjunct faculty here. All WTS need do is not renew his appointment though it isn’t even clear he has a current appointment.
Not surprisingly all trustees are men.
I’m left unclear what Payne–prior to any leadership position or ordination–did “wrong.” If he had light intimacies with a fiancé, there is no violation. The woman conjures her “purity” violation and tries to infantilize herself at age 20!!!
As I read her narrative, Payne seems to have become concerned they were sexually incompatible for whatever reason, and the woman wasn’t catching on to his lead. This is a private matter to them and her effort to shame him publicly is itself shameful.
He has not told his account and he may remember something quite different. There is no objective verification. This should give you pause even in your rabid state.
The Bible does not give you oversight over this man. His church elders considered the matter and decided it was history, atoned for and forgiven. This looks to me like your own sinful crusade.
You are consciously in violation of the church elders’ decision, when they have access to the pastor’s story and you do not. You are being offensive and unforgiving. These are biblical violations. I will personally work to hold you all accountable.
LOL!
There is no way the sort of serious sexual assault alleged here wasn’t preceded by other incidents which weren’t dealt with. And sexual offenders rarely have one victim.
As you know reports of abuse are frequently followed by a flood of other complaints but I doubt very much that the PCA is facing the reality of what that means for them.
Does it have anything to do with the fact that it happened a quarter century ago? Or that the rejected woman is the one providing the testimony? Those are the objections I could envision sone parties raising to this story. (For the record, I think good men do not do this stuff even when they’re young. I believe Elisha.)
So abuse that happened 25 years ago is not wrong or a crime?
So if a person is rejected, that means it is not abuse or that a rejected person cannot provide truthful testimony?
I believe this story in the NYT is worth looking at:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/08/us/willow-creek-church-resignations-bill-hybels.html
“The lead pastor and the entire board of elders resigned on Wednesday night from Willow Creek Community Church, one of the nation’s most influential evangelical congregations, saying that they had made a mistake by failing to believe the women who accused the Rev. Bill Hybels, the church’s founding pastor, of sexual harassment.
“To all the women who have come forward,” said Missy Rasmussen, one of nine elders, speaking to the hushed congregants, “we are sorry that we added to your pain.”
“We have no reason to not believe any of you. We are sorry that our initial statements were so insensitive, defensive and reflexively protective of Bill,” she said, while some in the church’s cavernous auditorium, in South Barrington, Ill., wept openly. “We exhort Bill to acknowledge his sin and publicly apologize.”
================================
It seems with every new revelation of a celebrity pastor’s sexual abuse there is a large contingency of close friends and church members that immediately rush to the pastor’s defense. Their defense of the abuser is generally the same – they know the man and he would never do that, or that happened 20 years ago -Jesus forgave him and so should you. This took place with Ravi Zacharias, Tullian Tchividjian, Johnny Hunt, Brian Houston, among others.
It has already happened in Jon Payne’s case. Just read the emails the elders sent to Elisha Boggs.
Todd Pruitt, a PCA elder and likely a friend of Payne’s, Tweeted this out earlier today:
“The scandal mongers vandalizing the church are involved in a wicked enterprise. Reject them. Attention is their drug. Gossip is their trade.”
In another Tweet today Pruitt wrote:
“I am not who I was 25 years ago. Praise God for the grace of sanctification.”
It seems rather obvious that his Tweets were in response to Dee’s blog, but Pruitt doesn’t have the courage to say who he is referencing.
And let me state that it matters little that Jon Payne sexually assaulted Elisha Boggs 25 years ago, or that Andy Savage sexually assaulted Jules Woodson 20 years ago – neither one should be a pastor today.
But I must remind myself that Pruitt had high praise for pedophile Tom Chantry prior to his conviction. I hope to write an article on Pruitt later this week.
I’m going to stop you right there. These actions by Payne are not intimacies, they are abuse. If you don’t understand this, I suggest you read one of Diane Langberg’s books.
I will not allow any comments by anyone who attempts to downplay abuse. You will be put into permanent moderation.
So What Else Is New?
This IS the New Normal when it comes to Anointed MenaGAWD.
“RIGHTEOUS and PIOUS Are WE (NOT Thee!)”
dee,
Dee, I think “R” is agreeing with us and misunderstood my comment.
IMHO, it’s far different from a “protect the church at all costs” culture.
The culture is: pastors, youth pastors in particular, taking out their dingdong, thrusting it at an unsuspecting, inexperienced, and uninformed young woman or teen girl, then threatening her for secrecy.
Public Service Announcement: Hey fellas, pastors in particular, young women and girls are in NO WAY interested in your dingdong – seeing it, touching it, tasting it, massaging it. They also have no clue what to do with it, when you pull it out and go after a teengirl/young woman with it. Moreover, they don’t want training with regard to pastor’s dingdong.
There are women trained for this, however.
Obviously, these so-called pastors (using that word very liberally), are totally into their dingdong.
Get a clue, theoboys, the girls & women are not. Please publish this in every church bulletin and on every church website. Include this in seminary training:
“Young women and girls are in NO WAY interested in seeing, touching, tasting or massaging pastor’s dingdong. Young women and girls also have no clue what to do with it, when the pastor pulls it out and goes after a girl/young woman with it.
There is an industry to address this and meet the pastor’s dingdong need. Experienced working girls will deal with the pastor’s dingdong for a fee. They know exactly what to do. The pastor can also request that business transactions be kept confidential. Will the working woman keep pastor’s secret? One imagines a lot of working women keeping a lot of men’s secrets.
The youth group girls? The young women seeking Jesus? No. They want nothing to do with dingdongs. Get a clue, guys. A pastor’s job is NOT to train/teach teengirls and young women in what to do with pastor’s dingdong. Yes, the young women and teengirls are uninformed and untrained with dingdongs but they are NOT seeking this training. So stop. Jesus never trained teengirls and young women regarding his or any man’s dingdong.
Young women and teen girls participate in church to be disciples of Jesus, not the keeper of the pastor’s dingdong, and certainly not in secret.
It happens on blogs like this every time they blow the whistle on some ManaGAWD.
The comment threads fill with Defenders of the Faith (and the Mighty ManaGAWD) doing drive-bys, denouncing the whistleblower bloggers as Bitter, Gossip, Heathen, Scoffers, Demon-possessed, SAY-TANN-IC, Bla, Bla, Bla. Sometimes with Bible Verse after Bible Verse recited without engaging a single neuron above the brainstem.
Todd Wilhelm,
Thx, Todd. Well stated.
They like to play (and plow) the field.
“Specialization is for Insects.”
— Robert Heinlein
Like Don Juan in Hell.
The Devil would let him out of Hell if he could remember the name of any one of the thousands of women he’d done. He couldn’t. Not a single one.
dee,
Thx, Dee. We greatly appreciate your work and the opportunity to weigh in. These stories are so important. God bless you. God bless those who share their stories.
Todd Wilhelm,
I am familiar with Mr. Pruitt from when he was podcasting and blogging with Aimee Byrd and Carl Trueman. Mr. Pruitt seems to have a very grandiose conception of “the ordained clergy,” and himself as one of these very special beings, congruent with some of the extremes of clericalism found at times in the Catholic Church.
What kind of response from Payne would have prevented publication of this correspondence?
Also, maybe I missed this in the article but what does Elisha hope to see happen now that this is published?
“… teenage girls develop crushes on older men, which may include youth leaders … It is, therefore, essential to have people in spiritual leadership who do not take advantage of this situation.”
Speaking from my SBC experience, “older men” youth leaders are in their 20s-30s. Most are fresh out of seminary, with little ministry experience. These are flesh-baby accidents waiting to happen. Numerous SBC youth leaders were on the Houston Chronicles’ sex abuser list. The American church needs to rethink its youth ministry model. Scripture says that we are to put youth under older saints to mentor them, who are mature in the faith (implying age and spiritual maturity). Maybe it was just the SBC churches I journeyed through over 70 years, but I never knew a Youth Pastor who was spiritually mature.
“He called her immature and denigrated the faith of her family, which coincided with the start of his classes at Reformed Seminary.”
Very common in the young, reformed and restless New Calvinist crowd. They have “arrived” … other expressions of faith haven’t. Disparaging non-Calvinist believers comes with reformed indoctrination, apparently.
“He never wanted to be corrected, but always had corrections to give. He became a reformed nightmare.”
Hmmmm … I wonder if he has ever been a TWW troll?
The best youth leaders I ever had as a youth or have seen as an adult have been people of at least age 35 who have kids of their own.
“his threatening sermon speaks to HIS characteristics and actual history”
Those who preach the hardest against a particular sin have personally walked in it and/or still living that way. Yet, the hearer never knows they are talking about themselves.
“Elisha, Greetings from Charleston.”
Given the nature of the correspondence, not exactly a proper salutation.
“the soul-crushing and ruinous platforms of the public square”
“You can’t keep your true self hidden forever; before long you’ll be exposed. You can’t hide behind a religious mask forever; sooner or later the mask will slip and your true face will be known. You can’t whisper one thing in private and preach the opposite in public; the day’s coming when those whispers will be repeated all over town.” (Luke 12:3 MSG)
Praise God Holly … you escaped from the snare … you are free in Christ now!
the “abused” woman has provided this testimony … a victim speaking about her abuser
There are certainly exceptions, where being young is not a handicap in ministry. I’ve known some youth leaders like that, too … solid young men with spiritual maturity.
2 questions. 2 responses. IMHO.
1. He’s a public figure presenting himself one way, preaching of walking in the Light, when the truth is quite different in hiding a tremendous Dark Side, in what he did to that young woman, and whatever else he is hiding. It’s a major no small matter disconnect. She knows and his public is deceived. He could have published the truth himself about himself, instead of living a lie disappearing young woman that he blitzed with his privates. His behavior is an enormous contradiction with his controlled narrative and public image. She knows the truth. He could have cleared this up, clarified, and confessed both to the woman he offended and to the public he is lying to. What this pastor did/does with his privates (and threats) is an affront to his public image. Lies. Not little white lies. Enormous life-destroying lies. Bring in Light to make it right, to both the public who have been deceived and to the young woman who was destroyed. Why is it a public affair? Because he went after an uninformed, unsuspecting, inexperienced young church woman with his projectile. That is dangerous and criminal. Particularly in a community that thrives on trust – the church. He is a LEADER in such a community while he himself is completely untrustworthy. Telling the young woman to disappear is particularly evil, degrading, and full-on denial. Hey Evangelicals: A Catholic parish may love and adore their Catholic priest but should the boys who were assaulted just keep silent as men when they know the truth about the adored priest? It takes Attorney Jeff Anderson and Associates to clear the air and bring in light when they hold a press conference with the man who tells the truth about the priest who blitzed young boys with his projectile. Protect the image? No, tell the truth and clear the air. Pastor should have protected his own image with truthful behavior that respects women. He blitzed with his projectile and buried a young woman. What else is he hiding? He is a public figure, paid by the public, trusted by the public, who betrays the public. She is evidence. She knows. Bring it all into the light to confess, clarify, cleanse. Both to the deceived public and the destroyed individual lives. When he was 2-timing, even his now-wife was betrayed. If he is lying about that now, changing times & dates of history to control the narrative in his favor, what else is he lying about?
2. One can’t speak for the young woman who was betrayed. Her testimony is a tremendous Public Service Announcement: Don’t be blitzed by a superstar athletic golden boy pastor. He may use this as leverage to then blitz unsuspecting, uninformed, inexperienced teengirls and young women with his projectile while swearing them to secrecy and degrading them as less than human so they will never be listened to or believed in public regarding the truth about golden boy and how he uses his projectile. Every parent, every church participant should take note here. Be aware and protect yourself and your loved ones and your church community from the snakes with pastor garb and title who behind closed doors and underneath blankets projectile pounce on women and children then bury them to hide what they have done with their projectile.
“This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.” I John.
Warning to all new commenters and others:
I will not accept any comment that denigrates a victim of sexual abuse. I will NOT approve those comments, and I will not explain why. I have been doing this blog for 14 years, and I rarely, far more rarely than any blog, allow for all kinds of comments. But heaping scorn on women who are abused, in my opinion, and many others, will not be allowed.
I guess I’m getting some PCA types desperate to hold onto the apparent unwillingness of the PCA to deal with sexual abuse. See the post before this one to understand.
You can call me names and show how I’m discriminating against a commenter, whatever. It won’t work.
Some folks out there need to take a long look in the mirror.
The Holocaust happened decades ago. It is through testimonies of those who survived that we understand and know what happened. Yes, there are Holocaust deniers.
At the link, he specifically preaches on DUPLICITOUS as evil. That’s is exactly his deal, his practice, his life: duplicitous.
God is Light. In Him there is no darkness at all. Thanks to Elisha, the darkness and duplicitousness of this anti-duplicitousness preaching but NOT practicing pastor is being brought into the light.
Ava Aaronson,
In addition to being true, your comment is also hilariously funny in the tradition of black comedy.
You have to wonder what they think they’re going to achieve, when their efforts merely reinforce the impression given about their own attitude towards sex, consent, women, misuse of power, rape, sexual assault, etc.
For example the act described at No 2 in the blog post has been ruled in a VERY prominent lawsuit in the US as recently as this year, to be sexual assault. To have a commenter refer to it as ‘light intimacies with a fiancé’ does not give any confidence in that commenter’s understanding of these things.
Jonathan Poletti wrote: “ The woman conjures her “purity” violation and tries to infantilize herself at age 20!!!”
Key words that got my attention – “infantilize herself at age 20”
Elisha attended a Christian school and was involved in an evangelical church where infantilizing females is a top “gospelly” priority. I may be assuming too much (Dee, Elisha – correct me if I’m wrong), but I get the impression that Elisha lived at least a somewhat sheltered life.
At age 20, I doubt that her social experiences and social maturity were at the same level as someone who functioned and was educated in a more worldly environment. I suspect that at age 20, Elisha was probably more innocent and vulnerable than an average 14 year old.
Throw in an athletic, handsome, supposedly godly young man who has no qualms about crossing lines and it’s trouble just waiting to happen.
And, judging by the way Payne treated Elisha all along, I believe that he was in it for his own gratification and cared nothing for her. I believe he simply took advantage of her, used her, used her family. I believe Elisha was too innocent, too infatuated, and too inexperienced to see that.
Emotional scars like that on an innocent young person do not go away.
(I used the word “infatuated” – I almost used “in love”, but had second thoughts. I believe Elisha did love the man she thought he was, but he is not that man.)
Jonathan Poletti,
Mr. Poletti, Jon Payne is not under the judicial authority of his church Elders. He is under the judicial authority of his Presbytery. He is not a member of the church he pastors; he is a member of the Presbytery.
They are following SBC’s lead.
I’ve been to Alaska two times to fish; I remember every detail of those fantastic adventures in America’s last wilderness. On the other hand, I’ve been on so many fishing trips in America over 70+ years that I can’t recall details. Guess there’s a point where you’ve been fishing so much, that you can recall every fish you catch.
meant to say “can’t recall”
Not something that should be in the heart of someone preparing for ministry via the avenue of youth pastor. That’s what we call “The Savage Way.”
Jonathan Poletti,
I’m afraid I have to disagree. I have allowed your comment to stand, but I believe you are contributing to her abuse. I read your piece on Medium, and I appreciate that you quote heavily from my post. So glad that I happened to know it was mine. Sadly, it appears that you do not understand Christian culture in certain circles, nor do you seem to understand abuse. I have let your comment stand but will plan to moderate all future comments from you.
I particularly noticed your assessment of my blog as an “abuse” watchdog blog. “Abuse?” LOL.
By mistake I posted this in the previous post.
“ The Church is Christ’s precious bride. He loved her to death on Calvary.9 It’s no surprise, then, that in His Word are revealed remarkably high standards for those ordained officers who would instruct, serve, and shepherd the church in His name. Those standards or qualifications are set forth in I Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:5-9. Elders, for example, are called to be “above reproach” [unimpeachable in character] and “dignified” [worthy of respect]. Later Paul exhorts Timothy — and all subsequent ordained officers — to flee sinful desires and ruinous behavior, and to “pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness” (I Tim. 6:3-11). He is charged to “train [himself] for godliness” (4:7).
The focus on qualifications for elders in Scripture is not primarily centered on competence, gifts, personality, or intellect. It’s centered on character. It’s focused on holiness. It’s concentrated upon integrity and sincere piety.
This might lead us to ask if our presbyteries, in general, place this level of emphasis upon godly piety and personal holiness in the examination of candidates for ordination. How much actual time is spent with candidates exploring important aspects of their personal piety compared to inquiry about their theological knowledge and perspectives on controversial matters facing the PCA?
“I’ve been serving on PCA credentials committees for almost twenty years, and I must confess that time spent examining a candidate’s piety has often been brief and insufficient. To be clear, I’m not saying that equal time be given to soundness of doctrine and soundness of life—just more time. Maybe I’m wrong, but there seems to be, at times, a growing sense that we shouldn’t press a man too hard on his home life, marriage, and the nature and practice of his personal godliness, lest we are perceived as being heavy-handed, pharisaical, or unnecessarily intrusive. The result is that this portion of the exam is carried out in a hasty fashion, and men who are not above reproach and pursuing personal holiness are approved for ordination.” (Jon Payne, 16 Dec 2021 see https://byfaithonline.com/recommending-overtures-23-and-37/ for context, but it is applicable here)
*cutting because the attempt to shame Dee for publishing this account gets completely overwhelmed with manure*
That’s not what the narrative says. He used parts of her body to pleasure himself even when he said he was no longer interested in her.
On top of that, one can be 20 years old and be quite ignorant. To tell on myself, I was 24 years old and had just graduated from university when I discovered what I’m going to tastefully describe as “self-pleasuring.” And this was from a scholarly book checked out from the UT Austin library. Seriously, I had no idea. (It took a few more decades to figure out that I’m asexual.)
So yeah, I *completely* believe Elisha when she tells this story. You, sir, can put a sock in it. Moreover, I find it *disgusting* how you’re trying to protect a guy who sexually assaulted a woman who grew up in a relatively sheltered community and used her as his sex toy. You should be mortified. STOP IT.
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
Thank you for this beautiful and vulnerable comment. I, too, at 20, was quite naive and would have been shocked by this behavior. I, too, would most likely have frozen, as did Elisha. Many victims like Jules and Elisha realize better that they experienced abuse as they go into their mid to late 30s. Some, like one man whose testimony I heard, couldn’t admit what happened until he was 80. So few people truly understand the dynamics of abuse,
I agree with you totally.
Devastating. Thank you.
At the time, Mr. Payne held the position of “Youth Pastor”, a spiritual leadership position. A pastor must be “self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined” (Titus 1:8).
Oh my!
Muff Potter,
These events are so utterly absurd, that, yes, they are almost laughable but in truth, totally tragic, criminal, and evil.
Apparently it needs to be explicitly stated:
Pastor, do NOT pull out your thing then shove it into the face, hand, mouth, or privates of a church teengirl or young woman. She is shocked, dumbfounded, terrified, horrified, traumatized, and completely out of her element. She is clueless. How dare a pastor do this. It’s not normal and it’s completely on him.
There are experts who can handle the pastor’s thing and this type of pastor probably knows full well where to find the experts since he is into his thing. This is normal. It’s business as usual with a fee but there is no shock and trauma.
Often when one person with evidence (a victim perhaps) goes public, other testimonies with evidence come forth. This completes the picture of what’s really going on, and who this person (the culprit) really is.
A church leader is a public figured, salary paid for by public donations. Is there a need to have an accurate public picture of who he (or she if women pastors are permitted) really is? Absolutely. Thanks to Elisha the public picture of who the Rev. Dr. is, is now more accurate.
Others may come forth. All steps in the right direction. Unfortunately, RevDoc didn’t do this on his own. Did he tell others to disappear?
A public figure has a public image. The more truthful it is, the better for everyone. A leader trying to hide who he is, is an incorrect application of the Bible.
Jesus was not this type of leader. Jesus was completely transparent. Jesus had nothing to hide. Paul was transparent even though he had a lot to hide. As Jesus’ follower, Paul published the truth about himself voluntarily.
The story of Payne getting her to service him under the secrecy of a blanket in the middle of the room is the perfectly disgusting metaphor for the way so many of these stories go. These men love to cover up and then keep trying to cover up their loads of misdeeds.
Nor is there shock and awe.
I agree. I guess I wasn’t clear enough. Those were objections I could see *others* raising. I believe Elisha, and I shudder to think he felt it was fine to skip off into the ministry after what he did to her.
I agree. I wasn’t clear enough in my original comment.
1 . FYI:
Read this and all the comments on this:
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/pilgrimsroadtrip/2013/05/he-kissed-the-secret-of-his-childhood-sexual-abuse-goodbye/
(I can’t get some of the hyperlinks to work)
My followup comments on this angle later.
2 . Is it true that some protestant seminaries are multi-denominational or interdenominational, and some are monodenominational? Does anyone besides me find this confusing? How can we tell which is which? Or even, when it doesn’t matter which?
3 . Jonathan Poletti,
Christianity is a public principle and one isn’t bound, even within an organisation.
A pastor or pastor-in-training pulls his projectile out of his pants and underwear unannounced then shoves it into the hand of his unsuspecting church young lady fiancée. In very inappropriate places such as under a blanket on a plane. She is shocked and clueless so pastordude grabs her hand to force her to work his now thick thing. This is no light intimacy. It’s neither intimate nor light. It’s a professional skill for some women and he would have to pay her well, cash. He should have hired such a women.
For the unsuspecting untrained clueless young church women, even a fiancée, it’s sexual assault. Never light, never intimate. Especially on a plane under a blanket.
I’m thinking of “joining” (to some degree) a presbyterian church. Should anyone have agreed to be a trustee outside their own local “presbytery”?
As a victim of abuse and someone who is currently involved in a similar situation as Elisha, I feel qualified to make a remark regarding Paul’s questions. Paul, the system doesn’t work for victims of sexual abuse. For so many reasons. And when your abuser is someone who controls a pulpit or other position of influence, the victim loses all power to relay a narrative that even closely resembles the truth. I would like to take your questions at face value, but it’s hard to do so. I think you’re being a bit disingenuous and relaying a bit of condescension, so I will treat your comments as such. There are people, like you, who believe our aim is to smear the individual, or maybe receive a monetary reward for our suffering. But these are collateral and secondary outcomes to getting our voice back. Years may have passed for the abuser, but for the abused it was like yesterday. Actually, it’s like today. Because when you are abused by someone in authority, when your power is taken away, you live with the trauma daily. And the system doesn’t give us the ability to get our voice back. We are fighting to this day to even let our voices be heard in a court of law. I can’t answer directly for Elisha, but I can tell you that people who are in power over you, who abuse you, they steal from you something that you miss every single day of your life. And you’re right, there probably is no response Jon could have given that would have made a difference. The person who took your voice can’t give it back. At this point, whatever the victim feels needs to be done, toward any measure that isn’t illegal or unjust, let them have their way. Put down your elementary thought patterns and try to understand something that may be beyond you. Your questions and the way they are positioned don’t shine a very good light on you as someone who cares for others and values empathy.
Certainly, good youth pastors don’t!
From Boz Tchividjian as interviewed for HBO’S Hillsong doc, 3 quotes:
1. What I’ve consistently heard from abuse survivors from faith communities has been the following: “The abuse that was perpetrated against me by the perpetrator was traumatic and it’s going to take a lifetime for me to process it and heal from it. But what was worse than that, was the response of the very community that I thought was going to be my greatest advocate: they turned their back on me. That I don’t know I’ll ever heal from.” That’s really profound if you think about it. What it’s saying is that the failed response of the church or faith community has a greater impact on the victim than the abuse itself.
2. It tends to be a common tactic where, when there is HISTORICAL abuse in a church or organization and that person steps forward 10, 15, 30 years later, you will hear oftentimes from the church or organizational leader in their response, they make sure to include the fact that it was 10, 15, 30 years ago. It’s just this whole method of minimizing a criminal traumatic act. It’s part of the strategy.
3. The very Gospel that churches and preachers preach is about a God who sacrificed Himself to save the individual. What’s happened at these churches is the polar opposite. Sacrifice the individual to save the churches.
Boz is addressing what’s happening right now in some of the faith community members’ responses to Elisha’s story of her experience with the RevDoc.
Mr. Payne had 25+ years to repent and seek forgiveness from Elisha … while he was preaching to others the need for repentance and seeking forgiveness from those they might have wronged.
Agree. There are lots of really good men.
Unfortunately, a community is only as safe as its most vile monster (who often presents as a gentleman, hiding reality).
Young church women need to be educated about the dirt-bags that seem to infest Protestantism these days.
How to identify them, what to do, what not to do, etcetera.
How many evangelical outfits will have the courage to do this rather than pretending they (dirtbags) don’t exist in ‘our’ church?
Muff Potter,
Exactly. The question.
Honestly surprised by this question!
As a young theology student in one of the Selly Oak Colleges I lived in one (Baptist/Council for World Mission), used the library in others (Anglican one, Methodist one and the Quaker one), and did courses in the Quaker one, as well as being a student of the generically Nonconformist one.
Honestly, they would say what denomination was behind them, and the students would tend to say.
It reminds me of the Black Country village I grew up in that had no fewer than five Methodist churches and you would soon know which was Primitive, Wesleyan, etc, despite these distinctions having ceased to exist in the 1930s. Or the way when you talk to members of the URC it’s never long before you find out if their church was ‘Presby’ or ‘Congy’ before they united.
But of course if you’re suggesting that if you can’t find out the denomination or backers of a theological college or seminary it’s not a good sign.
Merely that I’ve not mixed sufficiently in Black Country style milieux, and also not studied theology formally. I assume that most protestant seminaries (if not labelled “baptist”) are multi- or inter-. But some institutions and individuals have an accent. Yet some newer alumni and officers seem shy about all that. And there are “movements” within and across denominations.
What’s wrong with ecumenism is that seniors won’t stay in their own lane, while parishioners fail to equip themselves to mix as they should want secure in their identity. It’s totally topsy turvy. All churches are (differently) mixed in calibre, but some of those I’m temperamentally drawn to, used to (I’m told) value Martyn Lloyd Jones whom Dee called “wrong”.
One can find out “backers” (if tongues are loose enough) but not readily the “meaning” of the backers. The main point now is that (due to perverse attempts at acceptance) religion was since the 1980s especially wrongly made to equate with sex so that I’m with Muslin’s viewpoint almost alone amongst regulars here.
I fondly remember the Midlands in 1973-4. I could see and hear “Big Brum” from my window in Summer Row but stupidly NEVER inspected the premier Egyptology collection within. I can still hear the no. 82, 84, 86 buses idling at the corner facing my window.
I was “house fellowship material” that year. (I was supposed to study at Franchise Street which had a lovely “paternoster”.) One Sunday we visited by vanload (no seats or windows) Hockley AOG: the ministers were Miss Fisher and Miss something else, and the music was LOTS OF trumpets!
I can’t travel much of late (and older haunts are well distant from me).
In my native town in the south east (growing from 12,000 populace) we had 3x C of E (two historic, from constituent villages), one RC and one Methodist (flavour unspecified). The next village had a URC. In my “born again” days some 6 th formers would go to the Methodists in the town the other way as it was reputedly “live”.
I had had much of my best “catechesis” from secular “nominally agnostic” teachers from ages 10-13, and the RC churches my family were allowed to stay on the fringes of then seemed in line with that also. C of E churches tended to be good fun because of concerts or quaint history and because most vicars were both believing AND easy going.
My Elim pal quipped about the “evan-gellymould” and he also brought to school at lunchtimes a couple of quite good speakers. I remember how repellent I found the writings of John Stott which some classmates were circulating.
My Elim pal and also that house fellowship used to sing “choruses” which I’ll try and write down some day.
Other writers I’ve seen through when reading include: J Vanier (superiority complex), H Nouwen (ditto), T Virgo (waffle), R Zacharias (non sequiturs about cricket AND wrong footed at age 17 – read in 2011, but didn’t bother to tell anyone).
That aspect – doing the acts in a public setting, even with children present, is the biggest example of what a creep Mr. Payne was. Even a much more experienced woman would have a hard time knowing how to react. (I have some excellent ideas, but I wouldn’t have had them when I was 20.)
It’s the whole picture that makes this situation so abusive: the pre-existing pastor-student relationship when she was a minor; the significant difference in age, maturity, and experience; the religious element, including theological bullying of her whole extended family; the control, including her college choices; the public (and private) sex acts involving only her hand, while excluding any closeness or romance; and finally, the dismissal, with the additional element of his having had another relationship at the same time.
It’s not the kind of disagreeable sexual experience lots of women go through. It’s twisted and gross.
Marla Payne has gotta be asking a ton of questions right now about the timeline of her whirlwind ‘rebound’ romance. If JP kept Elisha around for sexual favors, just long enough until he could move on to ‘more mature’ pastures….oh boy. Talk about some Payneful, sloppy seconds…
Some powerful men in the PCA complained that the DASA report was raising too many hypotheticals that we don’t know even exist. Well, folks, add this to the appendix! We need women like this to come forward when seminary students are doing this in secret!
With behavior like this, what made the young Payne think he was fit for ministry?!
Ministry buds stick by their man until the potato becomes too hot to handle … when their own reputations are at stake … then it becomes “Payne who?”
Seriously, I assume it was his belief in his theological absolute rightness.
It’s of great significance to me as I read this, that Jon Payne is quite outspoken against homosexuality and a champion of purity in marriage. He ruined a young lady’s life and tossed her away because of his lack of sexual impulse control, and though he claims he has been forgiven, the damage was done, and yet he wants the public to believe he should be the one to speak the Truth of sexual attraction.
It’s always with suspicion that I look upon folks who claim that actions performed, even in reckless stages of youth, such as almost killing another girl/woman by drinking and driving- and yet there are no true consequences. Forgiveness is a little more complicated and nuanced than poofing away misdeeds and “struggling to recall” abusing folks while out of the other side of your mouth, you cast judgment upon others. Telling.
There’s an old ditty:
Don’t blame you,
Don’t blame me,
Blame that fellow
Behind the tree!
The magical part is twofold: 1) someone has surely wronged you and me at some point; 2) the fellow behind the tree, or somebody like him, has probably done something wrong in his life.
To the dismal names catalogued in your piece on Andy Stanley, I would add the tragic Long family and R C Sproul. Also numerous protestant and non-protestant preachers with their emotional offspring who together with the others have pulled down billions by their harmful words.
The disingenuous critiques of Trueman and Carson and gift vetoing by Macarthur and by successors of Stott are abhorrently disbelieving after the generation listed had presented their false attempts at acceptance. Josh Harris did right to stand down.
I like most of the men from their pictures and wordings on that seminary page. Sticking my neck out to pray in the midst of “discussion” that they’ll act tactfully and smoothly. Also I appreciate almost all the publications listed for Banner Of Truth. It may be worth pondering how to appreciate a trustee role thoughtfully and not lightly.
I sincerely hope this blog makes it to social media with a broader readership such as Facebook, local news etc.. because there may be more victims out there who will step forward. Honestly I would never even have known about this story (even though I know well everyone named) if someone who was at ground zero hadn’t sent it to me.
BTW the letter from the church elder was horrific. He needs to step down immediately! His lack of sensitivity to the victim and his praise of the perpetrator was truly disgusting. It made me wonder what was in his past.
There are church folks who love to hear that Pastor has a past … it makes them feel better about themselves. And it’s even better if elders write bad behavior off as “no big deal”, “boys will be boys”, “it was just a little hanky panky when he was young”, “nothing to see here, move on.”
It’s like we aren’t – as Christians – living in the Kingdom of God in the here and now … where purity and holiness are required.
“In passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, have practiced the very same things.” (Romans 2:1)
Predestined for the pulpit, no matter what.
The more I think about this, the more nervous it makes me.
Jon Payne, in addition to sexually abusing this young lady, was mentally and spiritually abusing her. They say rape is about power, and honestly, in this situation, it seems 100% based on that. From the proposal that he knew Elisha wouldn’t say no to, to the fact that he pre-courted her when she was underage.. and the situations in which the abuse occurred, as she said, took place when she really couldn’t object without calling attention to what was happening.
It almost seems like something from a book– an attractive sports star used to getting what he wants, acting with little consequences for very bad decisions, getting a “change of heart” in jail and seeing that he had a good lucrative future so heard a “calling”.. he seemed to really get a thrill from forcing himself on someone when she was in a position to be less likely to say no. Those are not normal sexual relations, those were points of control to keep her in line.
My anxiety comes from the fact that someone exploiting a powerless individual usually doesn’t do it once. The elders covering it up? Protecting him? Using the “viper” verse? That also smacks of experience. Wonder how many times they’ve gotten used to protecting a “golden boy” who exploits other people this way. I wouldn’t want him around my children. Or anyone’s. Nor would I at this point trust the elders to protect anyone’s children.
This whole situation really grinds my gears. Yes, a lot of guys are this cruel and callous, but they usually don’t go on to the ministry. As this case shows, though, when they *do* go on to ministry, they exhibit zero remorse for having nearly ruined someone’s life.
Well, practically everything in real life reminds me of either novels or operas, and this reminds me of *Madama Butterfly*: the charismatic charmer callously using one girl while intending to marry another. “E un’ facile vangelo.”
Exactly. You have just summed up the Catholic doctrines of temporal punishment and the need for restitution. If I sincerely repent after throwing a rock through someone’s window, I am forgiven. But the other person still has a broken window!
They all find each other, don’t they?
Luke 3.8 and Acts 3.8 = repentance requires evidence (fruit). Zacchaeus is the example.
The predator preacher not remembering his predation (no conscience, no memory) is a red flag:
1. Were there so many others that he doesn’t recall what he did to this particular woman, that he had even presented with a ring?
2. Was he working the church women (plural) over as candidates to then finally select one to be his trophy wife as he launched his career?
3. Is each woman leveraged as a particular tool – for his dingdong dalliances on the one hand (her hand) OR his public image career, on the other hand? Jekyll and Hyde is not a new phenom.
Yes. Next level. Culminating with commanding her to simply disappear forever. Yikes.
It took time, but she’s back, thank God, to set the record straight.
As in so many other extreme cases (Weinstein, Lauer, Charlie Rose, Cosby – America’s Dad, etc.), others may come forth.
In any case, the whole phenom of predator nice guy superstar hunk (Crossfit, soccer, etc.) pastors with one or more teengirls/young women on the side to blitz with their prominent attention-demanding appendage while upholding the public image of purity to shareholders (church donors) needs to be blown wide open. Church teengirls and young women need to educate themselves to steer clear of THAT GUY. Let the working women handle the pastor’s appendage, for a fee. Halt the church predation cold.
Is the RevDoc the poster guy for purity that he loves to preach about? Absolutely not. He is the poster guy for preacher predator. Legacy. Evidence? The woman or women he blitzed.
Over 2 decades, quarter of a century, of time to work up a conscience and finally do the right thing. Never happened. Lots of opportunity for a so-called man of God to live up to his verbage, to quit the forked tongue. He didn’t.
Yes, exactly.
Lots of broken windows out there camouflaged by stained glass windows.
There are those who do the deed where they could easily get caught because it heightens the Experience(TM) — the added Thrill of Danger, of ALMOST Getting Caught.
And when you don’t get caught, it heightens the Satisfaction and Proves your Superiority.
Add God-talk and you KNOW you’re Divinely Protected so It Must Be Right.
Again, Don Juan in Hell.
These five Kings said one to another:
“King unto King o’er the world is Brother!”
— G.K.Chesterton, “Ballad of the Battle of Gibeon”
“HE SCOOOOOOORED! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH! HEH-HUH!”
— Beavis & Butthead
“More mature” or “More RESPECTABLE”?
In the Godly Old Days, I understand it was common for a RESPECTABLE man to slake the Urrges in his Arreas with prostitutes before he found and courted and married his RESPECTABLE virgin bride/angel in the house.
And to this day, a common shtick for bachelor parties just before the wedding is to take the groom to a strip joint (and occasionally even a whorehouse).
GOD’s Speshul Enforcer, eh?
In Christianese “Hold YOU Accountable” a threat of Eternal Hell. I had it used on my by American Life League telemarketers during the Bork Nomination Fiasco in the Eighties. Back then it was if I didn’t send them money to get Bork on the Supreme Court, “GOD WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR ALL THE MURDERED UNBORN BABIES!”
Using power to exploit the powerless is the definition of evil. In the pulpit, leading the church, in this case. Sounds like the religious elite of Jesus’ day, who executed the Son of God.
In the end, Jesus rose from the dead.
For us, in the meantime, we have to deal with this on the side of right, or wind up on the other side for Eternity.
In the HBO Hillsong doc, a reporter notes: How can these church leaders abuse and use everyone for “glory, gold, and girls*” and yet preach that God holds us to account? Do they actually think that, come the day, they are going to get away with it? When they preach about God and salvation but their personal priority is showing their a** on Instagram in pricey sneakers & ripped jeans, don’t they see the disconnect? Is this a game with God? Do they not listen to their own preaching? [At which point the reporter, a guy, says he needs a moment, tears.] It’s revolting, horrifying, and tragic.
*In the case of Hillsong’s Pastor Frank Houston, he was a serial pedophile of boys, however. Pastors and churchmen prey on girls, boys, and women. Meanwhile, by and large, men run the church. Most men are good men, IMHO, but the good men need to step up and stop being part of the problem which is predators in power with free reign in churches.
Lots of $aved $oul$ to cash in for Brownie Points at the Bema, maybe even a Crown of Glory.
(During my time in-country during the Dispensation of Hal Lindsay, it was a general belief that your position in Heaven would be entirely measured by how prolific a Sou-Winning Witness you were. Looking back, I recognize this as a local folk belief endemic to that culture.)
In the supernatural adventure fiction of Manly Wade Wellman (based on Appalachian lore) and folktales of the Pennsylvania Dutch, you find lots of tales of “those who know how to do more than bake bread”: Conjure-men/Witch-men/Hexen who use their supernatural powers to extort money/goods/services from the powerless people around them. Often by threatening them with curses and hexes, using their Familiar Spirits or Friends on the Other Side as Enforcers (“Sic ‘Em!”).
Max,
“Called” and “privileged.”
Ava Aaronson,
Excellent comments.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
You are correct.
In the Hillsong doc, a journalist mentioned that there are seven mountains of influence where Christians need to take over, so say some Christians:
“The seven areas which the movement believe control society and which they seek to control are family, religion, education, media, arts & entertainment, business & commerce, and government.” Dominionism.
The Catholic Church teaches there are three communities we collaborate and live in: Family, Church, and Civil Society.
Historically, Emperor Qin designated 5 classes: Civil Servants, Academics, Artisans, Farmers, Merchants.
CynthiaW.,
Thank you, and I appreciate your comments, too. God bless.
Does he have daughters? Would he like them to be treated this way?
The Classics, IMHO, as in novels or operas or theatre, are real life, with proper nouns replaced.
“Anne of Green Gables” changed adoption forever. A adopted child is to love not for free labor. Charles Dickens changed the plight of children of debtor prisoners. Anna Sewell changed the treatment of horses via “Black Beauty”. All vulnerables that needed someone to tell their story.
That’s how I wrote a novel, “Legal Grounds”. I’d had enough of seeing real life that was never properly discussed. I wrote down what happens in news clips and crime reports, but changed the names. It’s on Amazon. (I’m updating my website.)
Regarding Gatekeepers, Christian publishers weren’t interested. Their Editors liked the writing and recognized the story, but couldn’t get their publishers to print. Then, several literary lawyers greenlit for printing. So, there it is.
The question.
I’ve noticed that it’s always women who answer God’s call for humane treatment of animals.
In San Francisco, it was women who started ‘Muttville’ for abused and abandoned dogs.
TS Griffin,
I am personally familiar with abuse in the church, and my questions were absolutely sincere. I’m going to chalk up your antagonistic response to the fact we aren’t sitting face to face and it’s impossible to read my tone. Also, my wording could have definitely been taken as judgmental.
I’m not condemning Elisha or saying she “did it wrong” or anything even remotely like that. I’m genuinely curious about the time period between sending that first letter to Payne and the eventual publication of correspondence on TWW. Was she hoping Payne would voluntary step down or his presbytery would remove him from leadership? Did she want the congregations Payne pastored to be informed? If either of these things happened would the correspondence been posted on TWW?
I’m also curious as to what Elisha hoped would happen going forward. Did she want Payne’s abuse made public regardless of Payne and the presbytery’s response? Did she want a third-party investigation? From my reading on sexual predators, and considering Payne’s behavior, I would be surprised if there weren’t more victims. But I can’t conclude that; there’d have to be an investigation. Perhaps, as you’ve stated, the system doesn’t work for the victims so there was no hope of transparency.
In the end, Payne brought this disclosure upon himself through his despicable behavior. His response, and his presbytery’s, didn’t help matters. I’m just wondering what Elisha wanted to see happen. Perhaps, she didn’t even know what she wanted except for transparency. That’s fair.
I just wonder what other victims of abuse should demand from their abusers going forward.
Elisha, you did a brave and right thing. Sometimes I think about doing something similar myself.
I don’t know anything about this man’s thoughts.
A general comment: a lot of these hypocrites also proclaim that they are Grand Protectors of their own daughters. This amounts to a lot of theater and/or forbidding the daughters from having any control over their own lives. Nothing is really about protection. It’s about control.
BINGO.
Paul K,
Chances are, Elisha has only recently been able to come to terms with what happened and gained the courage to speak of how he treated her.
Have you ever met a war veteran who refuses or were never able to talk about the war??? I have known several from WWII, Vietnam, and the Gulf/Iraqi.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
Yes, my grandfather, who fought with the Allies in Germany in WW2.
I’m still left wondering what Elisha wanted – or what any victim should want. Based on the correspondence, I’d say “repentance” (ie, the goal of the Matt 18 dialogue). But what does that look like in this situation? Payne openly admitting what he did? An investigation? Termination from employment?
I’m starting to think we all just want justice. An open reckoning with the facts and then accountability for the guilty.
Here’s what I’d want: 1) immediate leave of absence for Payne 2) third-party investigation paid for by church 3) results of investigation published and action taken after that.
It’s crazy the presbytery did none of these things and instead tried to defend him, so I understand the publication of that correspondence. I’m just trying to think through the practical steps that need to be taken. If the PCA has any wisdom, they’d immediately implement a checklist of things to do in situations like this, similar to the one I suggested.
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I knew a World War I vet who still went silent when the topic came up in the 1970s.
World War I vets were sometimes officially discouraged from discussing the war, for particular reasons. Something roughly comparable to this “laudable” silencing happens to many people who are abused in churches.
Paul K,
Sorry, Paul. I owe you an apology. Sometimes I read into things about this subject that aren’t intended.
I know, for me, I stayed quiet for a long time. I did press criminal charges against my abuser in my early 20s and he did go to jail and he is still on the sex offenders registry in NC. But the church wouldn’t acknowledge that they had culpability. And they went very far as to deny what happened to me and they actually said that I must have met the man somewhere else. So sitting back and hearing them spread a narrative that wasn’t true, I felt the need to push it as far as I could so the truth could ultimately come out. The church was unwilling to acknowledge the truth – even when many others who had no stake in the situation told the same story. I followed the Biblical steps and all I received was denial of the truth and blame. So I got very involved in the SAFE Child Act and I am pursuing a civil case against the church. To me, depositions seem to be the only way to get the truth to come out. I felt I had exhausted all other steps.
Again, I apologize for the antagonistic message – truly.
Yes, justice is what people want, and what they should be supported in seeking.
At best, survivors are often guided toward seeking closure or comfort, and assured that God will ultimately get the bad actor. That might be true, but the Bible does have examples of earthly justice. Jesus was a proponent.
Well, abuse is not confined to Protestantism, although I get your meaning.
Girls and boys alike should be taught how to protect themselves from predation. Parents will not always be there, and a slick predator will deceive parents too. Unfortunately it’s always been hard to have such discussions with youngsters, and public opposition to teaching the related topics has been around for decades.
A while ago I mentioned that our school district has excellent materials to educate young teens. It teaches simple things to say, to avoid being alone with someone who makes them uncomfortable. One unit discusses beverages, telling youngsters not to accept a drink in a cup, but to get their own can of soda and open it themselves.
The Bible doesn’t give you oversight over anyone here.
It’s a threat. An actual threat.
Unfortunately Jonathan Poletti (whoever he/you are) might be foolish enough to try to make life uncomfortable for a few people here, but not ALL of us. He/you should bear in mind that lurkers outnumber commenters by a large percentage.
Paul K,
Unless I missed it, there’s no evidence from the correspondence that the presbytery has been contacted over this matter.
Excellent list.
Add to the list:
4. Church database of church predators. Forgiven not forgotten. Withholding future opportunity.
5. Yes, results of investigation published so full disclosure of each incident, for a full profile of each predator.
6. Professional care services (such as counseling) for victim(s), paid for by the institution and the predator.
7. Whenever incidents like this come up, broadcast an immediate call for other victims to come forward. Schools do this re: predator teachers and staff, in the news.
TS Griffin,
No worries – comments on blog posts are so hard to evaluate sometimes.
I’m really impressed with how far you went to pursue justice in your case (NOT taking away ANYTHING from people who remain silent). I can only imagine how difficult that would be. Is there anything about your background that you think enabled you to do this?
Yes. And, it’s accountability completely in the wrong direction.
(One of Jesus disciples had it all backwards, too.)
So absurd. Is this a joke? Threatening to “hold accountable” those who seek accountability for a predatory pastor? So hold accountable the people that actually do right and seek righteous leadership?
Equally absurd as the “light intimacy” of a guy pulling out his raw naked pumped up frenzied thing to force it on a young church woman in public places. Shock but no awe. Gross.
Excellent point.
Paul K,
I’m an 8 on the Enneagram. Naturally I lean toward confronting injustice. And I also believe diplomacy and Christianity have somehow become mistakenly intertwined. Jesus wasn’t diplomatic. You have to crack some eggs to make an omelet. The men who are typically the abusers and the ones who cover it up are all ego-maniacs. So I just keep it in mind that as long as I don’t give up, they can’t win. Fighting for justice regardless of what consequences it has for me personally, is a very small price to pay.
Do it. I will just point out how this is JUST LIKE what the cult of greed and power (that’d be Scientology) does when you do so, and this is NOT what Jesus told his followers to you. And yes, Scientology has a sex abuse problem too, even though it is most assuredly NOT a Christian organization.
Max,
Yellow perch from the Great Lakes are the best eatin’ fish there is.
Friend,
Well expanded from my original comment, and I agree.
“She changed her belief in God to a belief in a theology that you prescribed.”
++++++++++++++
reading…. so stunning. so revolting.
so many things struck me. this one especially at the moment.
i feel my religion has left me – this really articulates it well.
it is not faith in God. it is faith in theology. faith in a formula, a system. it is faith in faith itself.
it makes me sick. the sheer arrogance of it.
almost as sick as jon payne’s astonishing alleged arrogance and selfishness.
Ava Aaronson,
The more I think about situations like this, the more I think there needs to be a contract already in place with a trusted third-party, so victims can go directly to that party with accusations. Then, that third party contacts church leadership and the ball starts rolling. But I think everything needs to be agreed to beforehand.
It seems like Payne’s church had no plan in place and not even a thought of a plan for when a scenario like this would take place. I would guess most churches have no plan, but they need to put one in place.
“Pastor Jon has expressed deep repentance and sincere remorse for not treating you with due honor and respect”–The elders at Christchurch, Charleston, South Carolina
++++++++++++++++++
give me a break. ignorance and stupidity are breathtaking.
how about, “Pastor Jon cruelly used you like an appliance, a thing, for his own gratification, without regard for your humanity.
He threw you away like an empty cup he crushed after he drank the contents.
He is fooling himself that he has repented – he never apologized to you either because it was too inconvenient or because it didn’t occur to him. after all, you were long gone in the trash.
He is a sexual offender and his continued stupidity and selfishness over these past 25 years disqualify him for any title, role, or function as pastor.
We value you as a human being and woman of God and we will prioritize what is right over and above our own convenience, our church, and what it means to us. You and what is right are much more important.”
“I hope, in some small way, that the letter serves to show God’s faithfulness and sanctifying grace over these past twenty-six years.”–Jon Payne
++++++++++++++++++++++
the stun-gun keeps firing more and more…
i’m blown away at the how supremely self-centered & self-involved he is. and how supremely clueless.
jojo,
“He was using one for his sexual gratification so he could pretend to be pure for the other one while pursuing his/their future in the church.”
++++++++++++++++++
goodness, yes.
so stark, but yes, that is what he was doing. using Elisha for sexual gratification so he could pursue Marla in purity, having spent his sex beans & forcing it on someone else.
the significance just keeps unfolding more and more.
About sums it up. On point.
Paul K,
The third party for this type of behavior in this case is already in place, and it is Law Enforcement in our civil society. As some have already indicated, this was sexual assault, at the very least sexual harassment. Going directly to LE is required.
Men have been arrested for urinating in a cup on a plane, let alone taking their thing out of their pants and forcing it on a woman, under a blanket. This is neither civilized nor legal.
Church communities would set even higher expectations than our civil societies, one would think, but that seems to not be the case, as one reads the public records each week of church leaders that force their appendage on unsuspecting church girls, boys, and young women.
A church covering for this? Then it’s time to be the Body of Christ elsewhere.
Too bad that Elisha didn’t experience that expression of “deep repentance and sincere remorse” from Pastor Jon at some point over the past 25 years. Repenting only after you are exposed is not genuine repentance, IMO. It’s like getting caught with your hand in the cookie jar: “Sorry, Mama.”
Therein is another reason that watchblogs exist. If a church/denomination is not going to do the right thing – to be prepared to handle bad actors in their midst – the blogosphere serves to force their hand. It’s an oversight by the Body of Christ that I don’t have a problem with. When these things happen, it’s just not an individual church or denominational problem, it casts a shadow on the greater Christian community … giving the world yet another reason for saying “See, there’s nothing to it.”
“oversight” in the sense of overseeing the matter, with watchful and responsible care
Robert,
There are things happening behind the scenes and, at this moment, Elisha is not discussing it.
I would guess that Poletti posted a “Poe” to parody Presbyterian potentates like Pruitt. The linked website looks like the opposite of a Pruitt fanboy. I could be mistaken (but I’m not).
But what is the right thing? I’d argue it’s probably to immediately hand any investigation and fact-finding to a competent third-party. I’m just starting to truly realize how dismissive of sexual abuse so many churches are simply because of the absence of a plan for dealing with allegations. Churches seem to try to deal with these things on the fly with no plan, no training, and years of grooming by the predator.
It blows my mind the elders would take at face value an expression of “deep repentance” from Payne… whatever that means.
I’ve hammered this point again and again on here but…it seems to me that churches need a plan already in place for when allegations are brought forth. Otherwise, it’s a free-for-all, on-the-fly mess by a bunch of unqualified, uneducated people who have no business running a criminal investigation.
What a brave, vulnerable, and Christ honoring soul you are, Elisha. As a young bride whose husband roomed with Jon Payne and worked at Christ Covenant from 1994-1998, I wish I could turn back time and expose Jon Payne as the single most arrogant “Christian” I have ever met, and Christ Covenant as the most fruitless church I have ever attended. I’m heartbroken Elisha was a victim of both and thankful the Lord prevented you from marrying him. I’m also thankful we were rescued out of the PCA.
Paul K,
One last thing: I am not qualified to run a criminal investigation or come to a conclusion regarding what happened in this situation based on correspondence I’ve read on this site. I’m guessing the same goes for most other readers.
But if churches don’t have a plan in place, this is exactly what they’re inviting: a yahoo like me reading all their dirty laundry on a public forum and drawing my own conclusions.
elastigirl,
As always elastigirl, you’re right on target, and right on point.
No flowery bull-poo-poo and no 3000 words of obfuscation.
i suspect jonathan poletti is something of an amalgam.
Max,
The PCA Book of Church Order runs to over 400 pages and covers all manner of things, including ordination into the ministry. The process is a lengthy one and in at least four stages the suitability of the candidate is assessed including Christian character. In this particular case both the assessors and the candidate had ample opportunity to uncover the truth, either by investigation or by personal confession. So the “I don’t recall the exact details” doesn’t stand up. Even 20 years later,it is hard to believe. As for the present, the matter should be investigated by the presbytery, not the local church and given the seriousness of the allegations, the person should be suspended pending the conclusion of the investigation. It’s all there in the handbook –
“34-1. Process against a minister shall be entered before the Presbytery of which he is a member. However, if the Presbytery refuses to act in doctrinal cases or cases of public scandal and two other Presbyteries request the General Assembly to assume original jurisdiction (to first receive and initially hear and determine), the General Assembly shall do so.
34-2. As no minister ought, on account of his office, to be screened in his sin, or slightly censured, so scandalous charges ought not to be received against him on slight grounds.
34-3. If any one knows a minister to be guilty of a private offense, he should warn him in private. But if the offense be persisted in, or become public, he should bring the case to the attention of some other minister of the Presbytery….
34-6. If the Presbytery find on trial that the matter complained of amounts to no more than such acts of infirmity as may be amended, so that little or nothing remains to hinder the minister’s usefulness, it shall take all prudent measures to remove the scandal.
34-7. When a minister, pending a trial, shall make confession, if the matter be base and flagitious, such as drunkenness, uncleanness, or crimes of a greater nature, however penitent he may appear to the satisfaction of all, the court shall without delay impose definite suspension or depose him from the ministry.
34-8. A minister under indefinite suspension from his office or deposed for scandalous conduct shall not be restored, even on the deepest sorrow for his sin, until he shall exhibit for a considerable time such an eminently exemplary, humble and edifying life and testimony as shall heal the wound made by his scandal. A deposed minister shall in no case be restored until it shall appear that the general sentiment of the Church is strongly in his favor, and demands his restoration; and then only by the court inflicting the censure, or with that court’s consent”
Lowlandseer,
It’s all there
A good plan for dealing with these issues. But as President Eisenhower said “In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.”
A person by that name does write about Christian things. However, the commenter here using that screen name might be an entirely different individual.
Break the law, one and done, for pastors. Or so it’s written. Whether they do what they say is reality.
On a Saturday night, a coach called a HS principal to state that parents had called this coach to say their son reported team hazing after the Friday night game.
The principal hung up the phone to immediately report to LE. He phoned the local police.
That’s procedure in place. At every level. And followed. By every link in the network.
Textbook.
Neither hubris nor hiding. Everyone stayed in their lane and did exactly what they were supposed to do, except for the hazers & witnesses who didn’t report, the criminals.
Cite the criminal is the only way to deal with the crime, the only way to make it go away.
Cover-up sinks and never saves any institution. It all goes down the drain taking all complicit along down, too. In the long run, truth will take the stairs while lies fly up the elevator.
Even in this HS hazing case, there was due process that took time, took the stairs. But the sooner the truth starts going up those stairs, unimpeded, the better for all.
Soccer Athletic Superstar and the tremendous church org that hired their Superstar.
Bright and shiny, but like Jesus? Maybe not so much. Jesus was never bright and shiny.
Jesus: ” … he was neither attractive nor good looking; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.” Isaiah 53.2.
Exactly. It is a criminal investigation. Maybe a crime was committed, maybe not. But when there are allegations, those trained to address criminal allegations, LE, should be contacted immediately to take over.
LE and the DOJ are not perfect. John Grisham points this out. But LE and the DOJ are the best experts we have with criminality, and many of these experts are actually Christians, successful in their fields of expertise.
No, that’s SECULAR.
HEATHEN. WORLDLY. FLESHLY.
No of the SPIRIT like the Mighty MenaGAWD.
“We Thank Thee, LOOOOOOOORD, that WE are nothing like those filthy secular HEATHEN over where…”
Fair Game Law LRH?
With or without Directive R2-45 LRH?
Church or Christian celebrity is an oxymoron. Jesus was a servant who laid down his life to be executed for only doing right.
By God’s power, Jesus rose from the dead to sit at the right hand of God.
As Jesus’ followers, we live, serve, and die, to be one day raised to glory with Jesus.
Live the glory life now? Not if we desire to share glory with Jesus in Eternity.
The live-the-glory life now is an egotistical self-aggrandizement joyride to an Eternity with neither God nor glory. Lots of churches and church leaders seem to be on this joyride.
The Future holds lots of surprises warned about in our Bibles.
LOL. There’s never “one last thing” at TWW.
After each comment, someone brings up something else, then someone adds more info, Jerome adds his research, more responses, Max gives us chapter and verse, an expert shares from their field of expertise, and so on. Before you know it, there’s another new post.
Too bad when churches, not every church, allow only one booming voice in the room, the room that the voice and his sycophants control. They are definitely missing out on the Body of Christ.
(I dare anyone to write one last thing at TWW and stick to it. Not going to happen. This discourse just may take us right into Eternity where we all meet, and keep sharing. No one here gets the last word. Moreover, our voices in Heaven are mentioned in Revelation, so there’s that.)
A thought for all those who bear witness in the deafening silence of indifference.
“We are having trouble finding Auschwitz III, also known as Buna. The last trace of the camp has disappeared. All that is left is a small plaque. A priest points toward a group of houses and buildings: “There.” So close? Yes, the camp was that close. How does he know? He lives in the street that was next to it. From his window he could see everything. Everything? Yes, everything. The “roll calls”? Yes. The “exercises”, the punishments and the hangings as well? And it didn’t prevent him from eating in the morning, sleeping at night? The priest shrugs his shoulders.”
“From all sides I am told to turn away from the past, to wager on the future. I am advised not to look back, to come out of ‘there’, to change key, to deal with other themes. Enough I am told. You have done enough. Let others take over. Let them be the ones to be insulted. You have been hurt by the cowardly, vile insinuations, admit it. You are entitled to rest. Should I listen to them, Father? Tell me”
“It is you I want to listen to since they refuse to hear you. Let them snicker, I shall speak nevertheless. As long as I can breathe, I shall say the words that belong only to you. “Open a door for us” says a prayer in the. Elijah service, before the end of Yom Kippur, “open a door for us at the hour when all the doors are closing, for twilight is upon us.”
(Elie Wiesel, ‘And The Sea Is Never Full’.
I would be very interested in learning more about your novels!
Great question!
Brava! Beautifully put!
Ava Aaronson,
Haha! True!
Friend,
his on-line presence is triggering a sense of manufactured to some degree.
After mulling it over for a couple days I’ve decided to share my Facebook comment that I posted when sharing this blog post. I’ve received quite a bit of support for Elisha to include a private message from a recently retired PCA minister who shared these words: “I’ve told people for years, “there is something deeply wrong with Jon Payne.”
Here is my post:
I’ll never forget the first time I saw Jon after he and Elisha had broken up. I was a student athletic training intern over the summer for the Charlotte Eagles, and Jon was next up in line to get his ankle taped before a game. I had trouble making eye contact when he sat down. I’m sure he could tell by my short replies that I took issue with him and how he had treated one of my best friends.
Finally he decided to break the ice and said “I hope that what happened with Elisha and me won’t negatively impact our friendship”.
I looked him squarely back and said “As long as she is ok with you, then I am ok with you”.
That is the last time I ever remember talking to Jon Payne.
Little did I know, she was NOT ok. I had absolutely no idea of the abuse that went on in their relationship. Did I have concerns when he proposed to her after six dates? Yes. But at the time I couldn’t see that his proposal came after a period of grooming Elisha, and then preying on her, knowing that her adoration for him would keep him safe from any repercussions for his actions.
When she called me almost 10 months ago to tell me that she was coming to terms with the fact that she had been abused at Jon’s hands, I felt ill. Now I’m angry. Angry at his refusal to take responsibility for the full implications of his actions, and of his session’s efforts to circle the wagons and protect at all costs.
Elisha’s story is painful. But important. Sharing here with permission.
*Background: When I was a freshman in high school Jon Payne swept onto the youth group scene at Christ Covenant like a demi-god. Here was a former Clemson all star soccer player with surfer blond hair, a million dollar smile, and a redemption story that would knock any good girl’s panty’s off. The swoon was audible. After a time I lost interest and developed a new crush on another member of the Charlotte Eagle’s who, like the grown man he was, was kind but completely platonic and appropriate to me at all times. But Elisha had a crush on Jon from the start, and it is now clear to me that he preyed on the crush of a 16 year old girl, waited until she was of age, and then swept in as her knight in shining armor, only to use her and leave behind a broken woman, warning her to never to contact him again. I am so proud of her courage. She is not broken.
Thank you. One novel, “Legal Grounds”, found on Amazon:
“When a small-town’s most attractive, ambitious and conservative girl graduate goes missing from her big city college campus, her Bible study girlfriends from high school back home step up to find their beloved BFF. Of course, the town folk are not at fault, are they? They only want to help, right?
“Amos Tversky and Nobel Prize winner Daniel Kahneman document in ‘The Undoing Project’ (authored by Michael Lewis) that impression and bias are flawed. We do not see the monsters among us until it is too late.
“‘Legal Grounds’ unpacks #MeToo and #ChurchToo in comfortable average America.
“Meanwhile, the town coffeeshop book club – Bonfire Books – discusses a novella: ‘Out from the Jaws of the Dragon’. They discover criminal violation of the vulnerable in their safe places, even while their own local mystery unfolds.
“Small communities, families, and faith friends are safe havens. Yes? The question.”
Thank you for sharing. Never forget.
Never forget: #ChurchToo, which are the forever life-altering holocausts of individuals at the hands of church predators. To those individuals, these church predators are every much as deadly as the WW2 strongmen. Jesus does not forget.
Elie Wiesel’s “Night” shows us what happens when we don’t listen to the still small voice, like the beadle or rabbi in his town that was arrested, imprisoned, then escaped and returned to warn. They did not listen. The beadle was not the One Booming Voice in the Room, drowning everyone else out. And no one listened to him, heeded his warnings, to save their lives and their families.
Lisa Ellensburg you comment about CCC being a “fruitless” church, really hit home with us. TRUTH!!! We were there for tooo long ( about 18 years) but when we finally walked out the door it was if our hearts had been freed.
The glory, girls, and gold god-guys seem to have a formula: choose, subdue, delude, use, abuse, bruise, reduce to nothing, then vamoose.
Is this in seminary training? A formula? This is not just one guy. There seems to be a practice and a network, as they have each others’ backs.
Regarding systems, is there any theologian that addresses this practice? If not, why? They write their systemic theology books and never touch on the reality of church communities, how all their god-stuff plays out in real life? Does it matter? Yes. Absolutely it matters.
Does a theology actually encourage this practice? Both Kristin Du Mez and Beth Allison Barr touch on this in their bestsellers.
Where are the theologians to address with candor, a preacher guy going after girls, boys, and women with their dingdong, in public places, and in private but where it doesn’t belong? The void of honesty is cryptic. Trust, then be assaulted, seems to be the experience. The drama is Stephen King novel worthy. The shock is horrifying, baffling, and a life of nightmares for the witness. No awe.
“I will lie down and sleep in peace, Oh Lord, for you alone make me dwell in safety.” Psalm 4.8. Jesus does not support this practice. Jesus is altogether safe and transparent, totally in the Light of God’s goodness. Jesus is Who He says He is. Jesus is never shocking, and absolutely never a duplicitous blinking Jekyll and Hyde hologram.
Well, if we don’t have the theologians with their grand systemic volumes of theology addressing this, we certainly have 1 John. Good enough.
That sounds like a genuine page-turner! I love mysteries and detective fiction. Will purchase!
It’s like a Cold Case being solved.
Cold cases can go to Court decades after the event. Time doesn’t make a Cold Case go away. Even if the perpetrator demands that the victim disappear.
I have a different spin.
I don’t think the verse is referring to Jesus’ physical looks.
I think it refers to a Hebrew idiom about the trappings of those whose seats of power are everything.
I personally believe that Jesus as the last Adam (and God’s only begotten Son), and therefore equal to God, was the best looking physical specimen of human man ever.
Referred to in the Bible as “dead works” (Hebrews 6) … because there is no spiritual life and fruit in them.
Indeed.
We disagree. However, I present neither a flag, nor a following, nor fundamentals such as a doctrine (in this regard). Do you?
Disagreement can be a good thing because it presents different angles to stuff that is not always monolithic and homogeneous.
And no, I have no flag, no following, and no country so to speak.
My previous comment was just a personal opinion, nothing more.
Absolutely. The difficulty is that it isn’t clear what happened here. If Payne denied any or all of the specifics of what was said that might be criminal, what would be the right response for an allegation that is 25 years old about things that happened between two adults who were dating/engaged? If any of our spouses or friends were accused of a crime from decades ago that occurred within the context of an adult relationship but the allegations seem so out of character for the alleged person and we sincerely don’t think a crime happened, are we obligated to go to the police? Has Elisha gone to the police? Does she want to? If she doesn’t want to, should she?
Muff Potter,
“My previous comment was just a personal opinion, nothing more.”
+++++++++++++++++
seems to me Albert Einstein operated on such things. \
Same here. My original comment.
In trying to figure out the who/what/where of this “PCA”, it appears Presbyterian has innumerable splits, so choose your brand?
“The nation’s largest Presbyterian denomination, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) – PC (USA) – can trace its heritage back to the original PCUSA, as can the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA), the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC), the Bible Presbyterian Church (BPC), the Cumberland Presbyterian Church (CPC), the Cumberland Presbyterian Church in America, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC), and the Evangelical Covenant Order of Presbyterians (ECO).
“Other Presbyterian bodies in the United States include the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America (RPCNA), the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP), the Reformed Presbyterian Church in the United States (RPCUS), the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly, the Reformed Presbyterian Church – Hanover Presbytery, the Covenant Presbyterian Church, the Presbyterian Reformed Church, the Westminster Presbyterian Church in the United States, the Korean American Presbyterian Church, and the Free Presbyterian Church of North America.” – wikipedia
Robert
I found your comment in response to me filled with errors. For example, you misunderstood Jule’s Woodson/Andy Savage situation, how that transpired, and how long it took for Savage to step down.
Even worse, you mention that Elisha should have appealed to the presbytery. Except, any situation that involves assault: sexual and physical should not be assumed as belonging to the presbytery but as belonging to law enforcement. Good night! Does the presbytery patrol the streets and judge other crimes as well?
Please think long and hard about that. A bunch of uneducated to the law and crime) seminary students have no place in ever, I mean ever, dealing with such a situation, and I don’t care if they got training from ACBC or some other half-rate groups about which I have written extensively and not in a positive fashion.
Beyond that, there is more to this story, and I hope to bring that to you and others shortly.
Your comment was not approved.
Robert
I wouldn’t be so sure about Andy’s situation, and you don’t understand what should happen, nor can you guess what might happen and what has been done. There is more that you don’t know. Your one comment has play, but once you hear the rest of the story, maybe we can talk about it. Your comment will show up in that context. You could learn a lot by hanging around here.
dee,
Dee, just so we’re clear:
1. Yes, the state/police should be contacted in criminal matters. Nothing I’ve said should be interpreted to mean otherwise. If Elisha believes she was assaulted, that’s where she should go.
2. I mentioned the presbytery only because Elisha went to the session first and you and her were complaining about how the session handled it. That’s her recourse ecclesiologically.
Thank God, we all do. Learn a lot by hanging out here.
Thanks again for your work, Dee. God bless.
Max,
All that old wisdom (tried and true) is out the window these days.
It’s looked down on with amusement at best, and with smug contempt at worst.
Muff Potter,
It (wisdom) has been replaced (for the most part) with phone APPS and Twitter accounts.
Proverbs 4:6-7
6) Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you.
7) The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
In the words of the prophet MC 900 ft Jesus:
“TRUTH. IS. OUT OF STYLE.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mj_R4lbHHI
I resemble that remark. I’ve had young reformers write off Ole Max saying “There he goes again.” Age and gray hair do not necessarily = wisdom … but it helps.
Piper, Patterson, Wilson, Maxwell and their ilk weren’t born yesterday. They’ve been at their game a long time.
Who dug up Calvin first, and why? NeoCals can be old geezers.
John Piper is affectionately referred to by the young reformers as the “Father of New Calvinism” … he’s an old geezer.
Anonymous
My family and I attend a church within Payne’s current presbytery. When I saw the article late last week, I immediately texted my pastor and asked him what is going to be done about it. It turns out that your sharing of Elisha’s story is the first they’ve been made aware of this.
Needless to say, our pastor (who has proper training in addressing issues of abuse and neglect) has referred this situation to the Presbytery.
Please let Elisha know that many of us in the pews are disgusted by what happened to her and the response she received. I am personally praying for true justice and accountability.
Oh, Dee, let him answer.
IMO, too many religious hierarchies (elder boards, presbyteries, denominations, etc.) approach moral failure by church leaders with “How are we going to fix this?” … “How do we protect our reputation?” … “How can we cover this up and move on?”, etc. Few run to the side of victims.
Elisha, you are a brave and bold woman speaking out! You have my support and I hope you can find some healing and justice by speaking the truth publicly. I was appalled, but not surprised by the response you received from Jon and the elders, and I believe it indicates that the PCA is complicit in covering up crimes and causing more harm to victims of abuse.
I am an ex-member of Christ Covenant Church, a k-8 Covenant Day student, and I happened to be involved with the Charlotte Eagles too, as my parents housed some players (teammates of Jon Payne) for a few seasons in the late 90s. For many years our guest room was also available “to bless” RTS pastors and seminary students visiting Charlotte for meetings or conferences who did not want to pay for lodging at hotels. From age 5-18, I was deeply entrenched in the Reformed community of Matthews, NC.
When Jon Payne was on the roster, I was a preteen, and I’m commenting here because I CANNoT EMPHASIZE ENOUGH the “swoon factor” that these players held for us young girls going to the games. My first crushes were on various Eagles players. If one looked my way or talked to me, it was enough to make me smile the rest of the month.
Christ Covenant also had a tendency to hire very good-looking male youth leaders, typically in the 23-28 age range, so there was major swoon factor going on there too for the young girls going to youth group on Wednesday nights. By the end of my senior year of high school in 2004, the male youth group leaders were also coaching football at Providence High School and had become objects of affection for all the popular cheerleaders there as well. In fact, I have multiple memories of the leaders coming into PHS as visitors to have lunch with us. (Yes, mid-twenties males coming into the local public high school to eat lunch with 17 year old girls.) …Both the Eagles players and the youth leaders knew they were hot stuff and they *loved* the attention.
By the end of high school, I remember feeling completely discarded. I was actually a member at Christ Covenant, but the youth leaders, BOTH male and female, seemed to only care about talking to and reaching the “lost” popular kids at Providence, East Meck, & Butler. This was during the John Sittema “seeker-friendly” era, so it made sense the youth leaders were investing their time and energy into non-Christians as part of a larger church effort, instead of discipling and mentoring those of us who were years-deep regulars.
I got into modeling, and somehow the youth leaders got ahold of my comp card that my agency would send out to book me jobs. They shamed me for the outfits and poses in my pictures (SO TAME and all shot in front of my parents btw) and I was told I’m no different than a prostitute, because I was selling my body for money. Out of sadness, isolation, and embarrassment, I eventually stopped attending Christ Covenant’s youth group.
The shame was so hard for me to grapple with, as I was publicly committed to waiting until marriage for sex (also under a form of psychological abuse but not going there in this comment thread…), yet I was still being shamed as if I was seducing all the boys and sleeping around. They said I was acting like a “stumbling block” to my brothers in Christ by being involved in fashion and booking modeling jobs. (I was SO pure, I didn’t even have my first kiss until after high school when I was 18.5) The love & acceptance of Jesus was certainly not something I experienced at Christ Covenant.
This is nothing compared to what Elisha experienced with Jon Payne, but I share it to provide some context to others and illustrate the sorts of attitudes and behaviors that were common in this circle at the time.
My heart breaks for you, Elisha, and I can’t fathom the pain you’ve endured psychologically and emotionally living with the deep wounds inflicted in your life by Jon Payne. You were taken advantage of by someone who had power and influence and went on to gain much more power and influence. He needs to be held responsible. What a pathetic, weak, and arrogant response he gave. I believe churches who protect their leaders and blame victims are institutional abusers themselves. Good for you for standing up to them all!
Key to building a large youth group … youth “pastors” don’t have to be spiritual, they just have to be cool, humorous, and good-looking … a working knowledge of the Bible is good, but not required.
i.e. The HS Ubermenschen – The Muffies, the Buffies, the Chads, and the Stacys.
Is there a God for all the rest of us?
Paul K,
If churches don’t have a plan in place to investigate sound belief and promulgate it, this is what we get, whether it meets state criminal standards or not.
What about the oppression X (5.32 p.m) experienced for 18 years?
And yes, it IS for ordinary people in pews to know what is sound belief.
Employ Payne intending it to blow up = welcome designer diversion from doctrine needs.
Ava Aaronson,
I agree wholeheartedly but an even more vital criterion is to not stand for church authorities imposing their theft of truth on us, for which LE are not appropriate third parties.
anon,
The frisson a k a pay-off: they get to abuse us twice: in doctrine, and our bodies.
He believed wrong. Furthermore, those who taught him to believe wrong did wrong.
Max,
I don’t care if Calvin invented Kidz Church. Jesus and the apostles didn’t.
There used to be (into my adult years) a room for a parent to take a child typically up to mid toddlerhood, plus others according to need, where the main sound proceedings were relayed, and simple story books read, saint dolls (or plant / property bricks) played with, or drawings drawn.
I myself had sat quiet in the main space with a little book sticking to the normal proceedings in my vocabulary, a genuine privilege.
(When I was littlest we would often send dad to church on his own.)
Sunday schools were always a separate occasion for those who wanted it.
“Kidz Church” insults the young who are the very ones Jesus still cares for.
At the end of my current services the “kidz church” leaders give a very gabbled so called “account” of “work” done. (And this is since my hearing returned to good.)
Four years ago when I was first there, one child from each group joined in
reporting, which was a good ploy, I don’t know why it was stopped.
I am going to start getting the teens on one side and quiz them whether the church authorities expect them to “believe” in some sort of muscular, stoic thing. Because I can see they are worried and their imaginations are stunted.