“I have lived all my life among shadows and broken images.” ― C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.
Recently, The Gospel Coalition posted Calvinism Is Getting Me Through Cancer. The article’s title caught my eye, and this is my response. My heart goes out to the author of this post, Jenna DiPrima. She has been diagnosed with
“stage 3 HER2+ breast cancer.”
I hope and pray that her cancer is treatable and that she will be among the many who eventually go into remission with her type of cancer.
A diagnosis of cancer is both painful and life-changing. As many readers know, I get it. My daughter, Abigail, was three years old and diagnosed with a huge, rare brain tumor. We had been given little hope of her long-term prognosis since the 12 or so case reports in the medical literature were far from positive. We went through a time when we prepared for her not to survive. I will never forget the night my husband stood in the room with my daughter and me after she had endured long hours of brain surgery. He looked at me and said, “The train has stopped.” At the time, he was immersed in basic research (adenosine receptors for you science types.) He would enter private practice, eventually allowing us to return to Raleigh.
After about nine years, the neurosurgeons told us she was most likely a cure that many involved did not expect. To this day, she gets annual MRIs but is now a critical care nurse working on her Master’s in Nursing. I have never forgotten the pain I experienced (I was pregnant at the time) attempting to grapple with my daughter’s disease, which required further surgery.
So, here we are. Jenna with breast cancer, and me trying to understand why my child had cancer. Jenna is married to Alex DiPrima, a staunch Calvinist since he was young. My husband and I had no preconceptions of Calvinism versus Arminianism. That was not due to sticking our heads in the sand. I, especially, was well-read on Calvinism since I vowed to figure it out. Assume I read the “right” books because I did. I even read Piper, MacArthur, and others, even though Calvin’s Institutes almost did me in. I have never “figured it all out” and am amazed around those who claim the truth is obvious…
Jenna believes that God gave her cancer “for His glory,” and she is comforted knowing that God wanted her to have this disease, “for His glory.” Therefore, she can see the good in her situation. However, there are some situations in which it might not be as easy for many people, myself included.
Why I See It Differently Than Jenna
I still remember my daughter, just out of surgery, with her head wrapped in bandages and her eyes swollen shut. She heard my voice and said, “Peek a boo,” as she used her little fingers to hold her eyes open. I almost lost it. She had received so many stuffed animals that when she felt better, she insisted on going next door and giving a couple to a baby with amputated arms. Have you ever walked the corridors of a floor dedicated to treating cancer in little children? Have you ever heard little ones crying because they were subjected to scary and painful treatments? Have you ever listened to them whimpering in pain through the long night? Then there were the little ones who died, their bodies spirited away, and their devastated parents, crying as they left for the last time. Then there were the little ones who had no family who were present. Their silence was even more heart-wrenching.
I have a thing for children and animals. My other daughter was profoundly impacted when she was a teen and saw kids living near a garbage dump in another country. The kids were sick and emaciated, many barely existing, most without parents to love and comfort them. Is this supposed to show God’s glory? Try telling that to a child who is starving to death. What about those animals tossed out on the streets who cannot even rationalize why they are in constant pain and dying? Is this God-glorifying?
Thankfully, I didn’t have anyone telling me I needed to believe such theology back then. This caused me to search for other answers. That answer is a fallen world which is our fault.
Look at this tweet from a woman who was a victim of child sex abuse (CSA.) She has encountered “those” Calvinists who seem to have pat answers for everything. I wonder if any of them have ever watched a child being raped for the sexual enjoyment of those who purchase child pornography. They enjoy watching a child crying for her absent mother. Is this, too, “for His glory?”
There is another way I began to look at this issue, which is one positive thing that came from my experience. There seemed to be no shortage of women who would approach me and ask, “Why did this happen?” One even asked if maybe the uranium deposits in New Mexico caused it. (I was a nurse on the Navajo Reservation for two years.) I still remember standing in a Tom Thumb, being asked for the umpteenth time, “Why?” when it dawned on me. I looked at the woman who asked and said, “You caused it.” Then I pointed to the parking lot and said, “They caused it too.” I would explain that we live in a fallen world, and things are not what they should be. My husband said that the Fall affected everything, including our genes, which is why we have cancer and other illnesses.
Within this messed up world, our Savior came. He deeply loved us and didn’t want little kids to suffer. God didn’t want a little child to cry in pain alone in a hospital room to show His glory. CS Lewis said:
“The Christian has a great advantage over other men, not by being less fallen than they, nor less doomed to live in a fallen world, but by knowing that he is a fallen man in a fallen world.”
Jenna gets comfort from believing God gave her cancer and pain. She is an adult and can reason it out to suit her paradigm. I get comfort in knowing that bad things happen in a fallen world, but God is still God and loves us dearly. My daughter left for college (I never dreamed she would go to college when she was sick. I wasn’t sure she could go to kindergarten, but, as usual, she defied predictions.) While cleaning her room, I saw a collection of posters, necklaces, etc., with verses most likely well-known to most readers. Some may think it’s cheesy, but it meant something to my sick daughter.
Footprints in the Sand Poem – Version 2
One night I dreamed a dream.
As I was walking along the beach with my Lord.
Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life.
For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand,
One belonging to me and one to my Lord.After the last scene of my life flashed before me
I looked back at the footprints in the sand.
I noticed that at many times along the path of my life,
especially at the very lowest and saddest times,
there was only one set of footprints.
“I don’t understand why, when I need You most, You would leave me.”He whispered, “My precious child, I love you and will never leave you,
Never, ever, during your trials and testings.
When you saw only one set of footprints,
It was then that I carried you.”
I asked her why she had this collection. She said that’s how God worked in her life. She often imagined God carrying her during some tough times.
I hope that Jenna experiences that sort of love from God. Jenna said that Calvinism is getting her through her cancer. I finally realized why the title was off-putting. Calvinism, Arminianism, or Whateverism is not what it is getting us through life’s tragedies. It is God who gets us through. God pursues and carries us through those times because He loves us.
Here is a greater truth. Although I have not had some “conversion to Calvinism” moment, I know God loves me. I sensed His presence in my life when I was at my lowest. He gave me an awareness of His constant presence and life-giving peace. One time, my little daughter shared with me a story of how she believed that one time Jesus came and rubbed her back and helped her headache go away while I was caring for my newborn son and my frustrated five-year-old. She said to me, “I know what Jesus looks like.” I don’t fully understand what she experienced, but I realized Jesus somehow comforted her, even when I was stressed. He cared for us even though I never had a “come to Calvin” moment. He loved my daughter, who didn’t know who Calvin was. I don’t think Calvinism is necessary for us to experience His love. Calvinism is not required for God to intervene. Maybe He didn’t cause the brain tumor after all…Perhaps his glory shines in the darkness due to his love for all of us.
Things to remember or think about:
- I do not believe that God gave my child a large brain tumor. I do not think he gives little children horrendous illnesses “for His glory.”
- Never ask a mother why her child “had a brain tumor.” Gosh, don’t blame her for something she had no control over. Whatever you do, don’t try to blame it on “uranium deposits” or something else that may or may not have been in the area where she was working, serving an underserved population.
- If a person believes that God deliberately causes a painful illness in a child or adult “for His glory, get them to explain what that looks like.
- God helped me find His peace during my daughter’s illness, even though I am not a Calvinist. Does God love and intervene lovingly in the lives of those who are not Calvinists?
- Does God deliberately send a pedophile to molest a child? If so, explain how this exhibits “His glory?”
- Does God allow an abusive husband to batter his wife “for His glory?”
- Does God help a person to use their abuse to help others? How is this different than God allowing a man to abuse a child for His glory?
- Could a church that teaches children or adults that God could deliberately send them a serious illness that will cause them to die “for His glory” be accused of teaching an abusive theology? Would you send your child to such a church?
- What does “for His glory” mean? How is that manifested in the lives of children in hospitals undergoing painful procedures or in children who are starving and living in garbage dumps in some countries?
- Could it be that His glory is made manifest by a God who does not deliberately send pain and suffering into the lives of His creation?
- Could it be that the pain and suffering that we and our children experience in this world are due to the fallen nature of the world in which we live? Do we each take ownership of our own part in that fallen world?
I thought about these verses as I wrote this post. Matthew 7:9-11 NIV:
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
Jesus came to this messed up world to demonstrate His love for us. He is a God who so wanted to be with us that He died and rose again to make that happen.
When the following verse comes up, I tell children to stress the word “love.” I never, ever want them to forget it. John 3:16 NIV:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Great post Dee, why does God have to create suffering to get glory? Did not God have glory before the creation of man and woman? I believe that we do live in a fallen world and things happen because of that. Yes God is in charge and can allow and cause things to happen. The sub that imploded this week, did God cause it to implode or was it a poor design flaw that caused its demise? So much food for thought.
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Thinking out loud…
I am glad that Mrs. DiPrima is able to find comfort in an unbearable situation. But I worry that her particular method of finding comfort is not going to be helpful to others.
Mrs. DiPrima says, “God receives glory when I’m more satisfied in him than in my husband, my children, a healthy body, or anything death might steal.” Reading this through the lens of a (recovering) control freak, the implication is that “God gave her cancer” (which she baldly states) because she wasn’t focused enough on Him. If she’d been more focused on Him, He wouldn’t have needed to give her cancer. Therefore, the cancer is her fault. I think it was Brene Brown who said that we become so focused on finding whose fault it is because it gives us an illusion of control.
I think the miracle is less that God gives us suffering in order to make something beautiful (aka “His glory), than that God can make something beautiful even through or in spite of tragedy.
After all, sometimes tragedy breaks people.
My much-loved grandfather is in the throes of dementia. And not the happily-blissfully-unaware dementia, but the paranoid-that-everyone’s-out-to-get-me dementia. This has stressed my grandparents‘ 60+ year marriage (one that I used to aspire to) more than poverty, more than the stillbirth of a child, more than caring for elderly parents, more than the suicide of an adult child, more than a cancer diagnosis, more than a broken femur at age 83 that required months of recovery. It is not beautiful to watch, and I frankly hardly see how God is being glorified in his dementia. Sometimes you do things just because it’s the right thing to do, with little thought for whether or not it “glorifies God.” (No offense, God. It’s just that right now Grandpa needs our energy more than You do. I’m sure You know how it is, having been a member of a very human family once, also.)
Sorry if that got a little blasphemous toward the end.
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I see Calvinism from afar.
I see a people who are CERTAIN of their OWN salvation and who also firmly believe that ‘the lost’ were condemned by their ‘god’ for his own ‘glory’ even before they were born. Pre-destination . . .
Pre-destining an infant to hell with NO CHANCE of salvation seems to make ‘the neo-Calvinist god’ a monster.
There is so much evil in this perverse religion that it now has become the basis for a dominionist viewpoint of political government . . . where ‘the saved’ can punish ‘the lost’ in the name of their ‘god of wrath’.
In the words of author Anne Lamott,
‘You can safely assume you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.’
therein lies hatred for the poor and the helpless, a hatred that renders them as ‘disposable beings’, already doomed by THE ‘god of wrath’ to a misery that permits the rest of us to be free of any efforts to help them
. . . . a page right out of Le Guin’s dark story: ‘The Ones Who Walked Away From Omelas’
trumpism beckons to those who want to cheer at hate rallies, who find joy in the mockery of a helpless handicapped individual, who see no purpose in serving ‘the losers’ or in honoring our war dead
so much hate . . . you have to ‘create’ a ‘god’ to anoint such a preacher of hate, and the golden image of ‘God’s Anointed One’ was seen being carried through the halls of the MAGA, a golden statue worthy of the worship of such a self-righteous following
soon, even the MAGA may have power again to enact policies against the more helpless of our kind, and that will be a sad day if it comes in ’24
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Read The Innocence of God by Udo Middelmann, son-in-law of the late Francis Schaeffer. Better yet, listen to his lecture you will find at the Lanier Theological Library 2013 page. He knows God doesn’t cause cancer.
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God gave her cancer, and Calvinism is getting her through it??? God harms and Calvinism heals???
I read the TGC post. She gives me the distinct impression that she believes that God is torturing her (one of His “elect”, no less) for His own satisfaction, and Calvinism is the only thing that can save her.
I think she has that backwards. Since it was posted on TGC website, I assume the whole TGC crew has it backwards.
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A cancer diagnosis is one of those classic low points in life used by dodgy religious groups* and quack therapists to hook people. Like all the religious conversions in prison. It is sooo manipulative.
*Not just ones that might be considered ‘cults’ either.
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Believing that God is torturing you is unironically one way (a bizarre one) out of the problem of evil. If God hates you and wants you to suffer there’s none of this messing with trying to explain why God allows suffering.
Westboro Baptist church are, of course, Calvinists and have perfected this approach.
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It takes a MORE sovereign God to create a contingent universe containing us in His image. Adam and Eve were the longest ago people who could be remembered. God created us humans in a joint category contrary to the claims of the serpent (i.e worm) cult operative.
When means of subsistence and organisation changed, when metallurgy changed, there were more Falls. Culture heroes were people who were given glory but mostly underwent a nemesis.
Creation groans because it too is contingent. That is, neither random nor fixed. Eternity is a ground against which limits are set to possibilities (as A N Whitehead found from his maths).
There is no grace without providence. “Reformed characters” don’t talk about setting the example of beseeching and imploring our God to send His good angels.
In St Paul’s parlance, Jesus’ crucifixion, resurrection and Ascension stand in for each other. That’s why we can’t have Jesus, without Holy Spirit inbreathing PLUS the gifts unvetoed (strengthening soul competency like discernment in hard times).
God’s good angels are constantly joining in events in ways small (especially) and big. The outcome for your daughter was the actual outcome, not a statistic. Waves map possibility densities.
Our God desires all people’s integrity to be safeguarded and He came in order to ascend and show that if we bring sins (including our forebears’ and betters’) to Him we can be part of His help to those around us.
This poor woman’s and her husband’s codependency don’t show “so great a salvation”, but rather an excuse for becoming implicated.
Calvinism (the ironically named “work ethic” and high handed possessiveness) and its several theological twins =
1 – setting example of lack of attention to detail, hence London Transport outsourcers not maintaining the tram tunnel and trying to put their driver behind bars, hence the club in Durham making that fence fall down twice in one evening; designer frisson as profitable business modelling
2 – affecting the body image of all throughout society
3 – turning back the theology clock to Nimrod
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Remember that Luther himself (following Paul and Augustine) was, if anything, a stronger presdestinarian than Calvin; it was later Lutheranism that considerably softened Luther’s teaching.
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I was young and now am old. I’ve been a Christian the greater part of a century. I have never heard a non-Calvinist believer say “Arminianism is getting me through cancer.”
Herein is the thing that bothers me most about the New Calvinists. You hear them talk a lot about their theology, about “Big God”, about Calvin, about living icons (Piper, Mohler, Dever, etc.) … more than Jesus. I’ve been through some tough bouts with health … my wife is going through one now … we both know that Jesus is helping us through it all, not our theology. Knowing Him is better than doctrinal propositions about Big God; the living Christ in our lives is more precious than gold.
I pray the best for Jenna and that she can experience Jesus carrying her through the tough days.
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I wonder if any of the New Calvinists ever sit down and think this through? … that Holy God had to develop a theology with power to overcome what He was doing?!
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I wondered if anyone else was thinking this. That was my first impression when I saw the title of the article … a sick way to promote “Big God” theology. I’m sure that TGC and Mrs. DiPrima are passionate about this, but it is a misplaced passion.
His name is Jesus … not Calvin!
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As a cancer “thriver,” I totally agree with Dee. What kind of half-a$$ed (sorry, I’m really angry here) theology is DiPrima espousing? I don’t know why God allowed my cancer and other ongoing health issues, except that we live in a fallen world. God got me through everything, not Calvin, Piper, Dever, et al. And there are some days it’s still hour by hour on His strength.
My prayers are that God draw me closer to Him with all these experiences. That I come out of it a more compassionate, kinder person. And no, I don’t see God being glorified in my painful experiences. I sure didn’t want them.
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Yep, before there were Calvin, Piper, Dever, et al. there was Jesus. As the old hymn goes:
My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
but wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand:
all other ground is sinking sand;
all other ground is sinking sand.
I dare not trust Calvin and his theology … but wholly lean on Jesus’ name. Why do you need Calvinism, when you have a solid Rock in Christ?
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Well said. I was a bit of a control freak until my daughter got sick. There’s nothing like a possible terminal illness to wipe away any thoughts one can control things.
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Godith,
I will do that today. Thank you.
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You are right. It is a bizarre and very sadly expressed belief system. Cancer is hard enough. God is will her, not Ca;lvinism.
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I always seem to forget about the basic belief system of WEstboro Baptist. I am so glad some of the kids and family got out.
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I am going to disagree with both Dee and Mrs. DiPrima. I agree that we live in a fallen world, and so tragic (from our point of view) things happen. Being Lutheran I accept the idea of paradox, which means that I think even those bad things are under God’s sovereign control. I also was taught that as a Wesleyan Arminian, so it isn’t exactly a Lutheran or Calvinist thing. In fact, dh was taught it as a child in the RCC.
When these bad things happen, and they will, our theology DOES either help us cope or not help us cope. If we assume we have the power to change the outcome through prayer we make God into our slave. If we assume we are NOT to pray and believe He CAN change the situation, we make Him an impotent God.
So what do we do? Like any trusting child of a wonderfully loving Father, we run to Him with the hurt and fear and the bad situation. We beg and plead for Him to change it. And then we wait to see what His answer is. Sometimes we get things fixed up (like Dee’s daughter) and sometimes we don’t (like my childhood school mate who did die of the brain tumor). In some situations that wait may take a long time…..like our son who has a brain not likely to be healed until heaven.
We can take heart if the answer is no healing that God is doing the kindest, most loving thing possible. And yeah, while some suffering is due to living in a fallen world (like three year olds with brain tumors) some suffering really is God dealing with us to better fit us for eternity (like some adults who find great purpose revealed to them in the midst of the suffering.)
And much as I hate to admit it, there are times God does, I believe, let the child with the tumor or cancer die not because we live in a fallen world, but to spare that child something down the road. My humanness wants to cry out to God “Well why not fix the kid now AND fix that situation?” but the situation itself down the road may be part of God’s plan.
As to the Titan, yes we live in a fallen world. From some of the news reports a case could be made the very human sin of hubris may have contributed to the implosion. That would be cold comfort to me if one of my family had been on it. It is one of those things that Christians should never say to the grieving family and yet, one of those things that may be a teachable moment on how sin infests our world for those not part of that suffering family.
In the same way, I would never have told Dee sin was causing her daughter’s issues, although the fall was an act of sin, and therefore in a sense sin really was the root cause of the disease.
Paradox.
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You are spot on. It is always about their heroes. Even the title of her post was bizarre. “Calvinism is getting her through?” Umm, isn’t it Jesus who is getting her through? I had to write this post when I saw that at TGC. She reflects the beliefs of the theodudes and doesn’t understand why it doesn’t sell.
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Their god (calvinists) is a cruel and petulant monster.
And their religion really is sick.
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I am sorry for what you have been and are, going through. I am grateful that you survived cancer. Wrestling with that disease is life-altering in many ways. My daughter’s suffering was brutal for me. Yet she remembers very little of the lengthy surgeries. Much of what she remembers is good, like the obligatory stop at the gift shop at the hospital to buy beanie babies and all the presents kind people gave her.
But God used the experience in her life to lead her to the nursing profession. She is a fantastic nurse, and the children love her. It made me more sensitive to the pain people experience in their lives. That pain is genuine to me.
God did not cause her brain tumor. But, He took the experience and had us use it to care for others.
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It continues to amaze me that so many otherwise intelligent people fall for New Calvinism.
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Apparently, New Calvinists prefer to think of the essence of Christianity as a set of rigid doctrines about “grace” rather than a direct experience of Grace. A dead Calvin vs. a living Christ.
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“I dare not trust Calvin and his theology … but wholly lean on Jesus’ name. Why do you need Calvinism, when you have a solid Rock in Christ?”
Thank you, Max. Amen and Amen.
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Praying for you Old Timer. Praise God that you know Jesus and have put your trust in Him, rather than some old stale theology.
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I dare not trust Calvin and his theology … but wholly lean on Jesus’ name. Why do you need Calvinism, when you have a solid Rock in Christ?
Yup! The Son of God suffered and died for us. He did not inflict suffering on others for His own glory, and He never will.
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And another thing. Those rascals are some of the most mean-spirited characters the church has ever seen. Why would I want to follow them?
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So how does this god glorify himself by hurting a little child?
I can see how Molech and Chemosh get off on it, so somebody help me out here, how does that work?
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This is horrific, but you know what’s just as bad or even worse? The Word of Faith approach to suffering, which essentially denies that it even exists. (And if it does happen to strike you, that means you don’t have enough faith, didn’t say the right words, or have a demon.)
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dee,
2 Corinthians 1-4
He comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any kind of affliction, through the comfort we ourselves receive from God.
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I think the author of the article relied too much on John Piper, TGC and Orlando Saer who wrote Big God and endorsed by TGC, 9Marks, The Good Book Company and other New Calvinist outlets.
JP has written any articles on cancer over the years, as has TGC. All of them push the following points, neatly summarised by Justin Taylor in 2009. (He is summarising a JP article written after his (JP) brush with cancer in 2006)
To quote –
“ Here’s the outline:
You will waste your cancer if you do not believe it is designed for you by God.
You will waste your cancer if you believe it is a curse and not a gift.
You will waste your cancer if you seek comfort from your odds rather than from God.
You will waste your cancer if you refuse to think about death.
You will waste your cancer if you think that “beating” cancer means staying alive rather than cherishing Christ.
You will waste your cancer if you spend too much time reading about cancer and not enough time reading about God.
You will waste your cancer if you let it drive you into solitude instead of deepen your relationships with manifest affection.
You will waste your cancer if you grieve as those who have no hope.
You will waste your cancer if you treat sin as casually as before.
You will waste your cancer if you fail to use it as a means of witness to the truth and glory of Christ.”
Truly mind boggling (and massive distortion of Scripture teaching)
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“Jenna believes that God gave her cancer “for His glory,””
+++++++++++++++
just starting out reading the article, and got this far.
totally honest questions:
-What is ‘His glory’?
-What does it mean for a person to do something to or for ‘His glory’?
-What does it mean that God does something ‘for His glory’?
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elastigirl,
If a person says these things and believes them, surely they can articulate the what, why, and how.
(actually, i doubt very many can.
seems to me christians, like people of all religions, exist in a sort of candyland game-world loaded with idioms instead of lollypops, gumdrops, and ice cream floats.
they repeat the meaningless phrases they hear and then export meaning into them to make sense of their lives.)
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Some of Calvinism’s odd attraction is that it provides a sense of “black and white” order for those who need everything to add up to 100. “God’s will” is such a pat answer for those who are unable to accept that life has random, unexplainable moments that are often unhappy, unfair, and heartbreaking. If everything is “God’s will”, what need is there for faith? Because everything that occurs is “God’s will” one merely needs to accept whatever is before them – be it good or bad – because God “made it happen.” Faith plays no role in such a system of belief.
Last year a 3 year old child of an extended family member accidentally drowned in the family swimming pool. A terrible, terrible tragedy. The funeral service was one of denial. The child died “for God’s glory” and “many will come to know Jesus” because of this moment. There was singing and praising God. It seemed that crying was out of place. Normal grief did not appear to be allowed.
Calvinism creates a sense of denial that I, as a psychotherapist and former pastor, find troubling. The failure to face reality because there is some huge “purpose” behind it
is not a healthy walk with God or expression of faith.
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Lowlandseer,
Truly they are the New Pharisees. Christ says “ “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
They on the other hand “do not practice what they preach. Theytie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.” Matthew 24:3-4
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They wouldn’t dare and do otherwise.
The fear of eternal hell can do wonders to keep them in line.
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elastigirl,
I agree.
It’s a lot of meaningless horse poo-poo.
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yeah, all this desperate need for certainty and answers…
imagine, taking the hugely complex complexities of life and solving all of them down like math. where all the variables are bible verses.
or idioms.
…i feel like i did when i first smelled fermaldehyde in biology class, age 12.
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elastigirl,
To glorify God is to honour Him in our hearts by acknowledging how great He is in His being and works, by proclaiming that greatness with our lips and evidencing it by our deeds.
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Dee, thank you so much for your kind words to me. “God did not cause her brain tumor. But, He took the experience and had us use it to care for others.”
You nailed it in that sentence. I would NEVER choose ill-health or other serious challenges. Nevertheless, without spending a lot of time overthinking this, my prayer has been (and continues to be), may God use this and somehow bring good out of whatever I experience, good or bad. And, please, engrave it deep in my heart. I do not want to repeat this particular lesson(s).
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Calvinism appeals to those who want certainty because of its (supposedly) tight doctrinal consistency. As someone wrote above, Calvinism’s god is a most cruel deity. That god is not worthy of worship.
The most profound glory God brought from your daughter’s ordeal, Dee, was her caring heart toward, and vocation of hands-on actions for the benefit of, children who are suffering. Anyone with a lick of sense can see that.
In EO, the greatest display of God’s glory is Christ on the Cross. We know from the Gospels what Pilate ordered to be written on the titulus of the cross, but on Orthodox crosses what is found is the phrase “The King of Glory”.
D.
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We live in a fallen world.
If each of us does what we can in this life to make our little corner of the world a little brighter we will be happier, and I believe God will be pleased with our efforts.
https://youtu.be/uaWA2GbcnJU
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“If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled.”
― R.C. Sproul, Chosen By God: Know God’s Perfect Plan for His Glory and His Children
______
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What Jenna has done is completely understandable given the circumstances she’s facing: she’s seeking meaning and justification for her suffering. She’s chosen to attribute it to God, which gives her the ability to categorize and diminish the seemingly random and pernicious nature of cancer. Reformed theology, for all its positive attributes (I’m mostly a fan), doesn’t leave a lot of room for mystery. In Jenna’s situation, mystery is not considered a friend because it cannot be tamed or predicted. I would be surprised if she thought through the implications of her statement, which were accurately presented by Dee.
I pray she finds emotional, spiritual, and physical peace and healing, and that she genuinely draws closer to God.
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Lowlandseer,
“To glorify God is to honour Him in our hearts by acknowledging how great He is in His being and works, by proclaiming that greatness with our lips and evidencing it by our deeds.”
-What is ‘His glory’?
-What does it mean for a person to do something to or for ‘His glory’?
-What does it mean that God does something ‘for His glory’?
++++++++++++++++++++++
ok, i understand. (truly)
that’s sort of an oblique answer to #2 above.
i’ll rephrase the question:
how does one go grocery shopping for His glory?
or do laundry for His glory?
or a bookkeeper prepare someone’s taxes for His glory?
or a dermatologist remove a skintag for His glory?
what would be a direct answer to questions 1 and 3?
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Burwell Stark,
i appreciate your kind & compassionate comment. i feel the same, despite not articulating it.
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That is a good point, suggesting that there is no evil. Or, it gets the serpent off the hook, assigning all evil to God.
Both of these possibilities are, as they say in seminary, “untenable.” That word comes up a lot.
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Anyone ever read Erich’s Fromm’s critique of Calvinism in “Escape From Freedom”? I will try to summarize – feel free to correct. With the transition from the middle ages to the modern, and the subsequent loss of communal organizations like the guilds, the feudal system, and the Catholic church, individuals felt increasingly more insignificant and anxious. Many tried to assuage this anxiety by submitting themselves to an overwhelming authority, Luther’s and, especially, Calvin’s God. The anxiety of insignificance was replaced by the significance of existing inside the irresistible will of a sovereign God in which everything was part of his plan. Later, with this anxiety increasing, another sovereign came along and offered the significance of existing inside his overwhelming will: Hitler.
Take it up with Fromm!
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OK, that exactly sums it up, in my experience. Doctrines about grace rather than grace itself. They even call the 5 Points of Calvinism (the TULIP thing) “The Doctrines of Grace.”
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“Come to Calvin” moment! HAHAHA!
Interesting… my husband is a passionate, 5-point TULIP Calvinist. (I’m not.) We were both raised in the Christian Reformed Church. He is refreshingly unaware of guys like Piper, MacArthur, Sproul, orgs like TGC, or the YRR movement. He’s not complementarian.
He’s also been around illness his entire life.
His brother has bipolar, paranoid schizophrenia. His dad died of cancer when he was 19 (he dropped out of Calvin halfway through to take up his dad’s landscaping business & support the family, and as a result, it took him 10 years of working full time to get his bachelor’s degree at NJIT). His son as Asperger’s Syndrome. His mother had a chronic health condition from having had scarlet fever as a child, and was on death’s door many times over the years before she passed away.
And then his first wife passed away after a brutal battle with ovarian cancer.
I think Calvinism does genuinely give him peace, as a Christian. Maybe part of it is how his brain works, as an engineer. He likes order, systems. He’s spent his adult life working as a systems control engineer, while knowing that you can never control life. Or God.
But I’ve never heard him say that any of his struggles and grief in life gave God glory. Nor has he tried to find explanations for why things happen the way they do, either to himself or other people. He’s a very unassuming, and accepting person.
His late wife had prayed that he would live life fully, and love again, after she was gone. I do not believe that God gave her cancer for His glory. I don’t think (along the lines of Romans 8:28) that marrying my husband somehow made her death or her horrendous suffering “good.”
I do believe that my marrying him was an answer to her loving, faithful prayers. (Mine too, although I was only very sporadically praying for a Christian husband, without him in mind.)
I do think God can bring good out of evil, but I would never call that evil “good,” in the way that glorifying God is good. I think that cancer is evil, in the sense that it’s one of the many devastating effects of living in a fallen world. God did not design the world for cancer. He did not redeem the world through cancer. There will be no cancer in the new heavens, or the new earth.
I think we can glorify God IN our suffering. But I don’t think that the cause of our suffering is ever good.
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Dana nailed it.
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I only skimmed the article, but the title is heresy. Someone at The Gospel Coalition should have picked up on that.
Jenna has clearly been reading John Piper.
About the only scriptural justification that comes to my mind, aside from Romans 8:28, which has been mentioned, is in John 9 where Jesus is asked, “Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” And Jesus answered, “Neither this one sinned, nor his parents, but that the works of God might be revealed in him.” And then Jesus healed him.
But it was Jesus who healed him, not any theology. And that appears to be a one-off, to show the works of God in that case. Can we apply that to all cancer cases?
One more glib saying that comes to mind: Calvinism, like Marxism or any ideology or theology, can make a useful servant, but it makes a terrible master.
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Agreed. Thank you, Elizabeth.
While watching a loved one dying, the visitation pastor said, “Well, Ava, now that Plan A is not working out, what is Plan B?”
First of all, we are all on Plan B subsequent to the Fall in the Garden of Eden, I believe.
Secondly, God has graciously given us 1) Himself as revealed through His original Creation. Subsequently, after the Fall, God has given us 2) His Covenant as revealed through Abraham et al, 3) His Law as revealed to Moses and through His people, 4) His prophets as revealed through His Word, 5) His Son Jesus as revealed through the Gospels, 6) His Holy Spirit as revealed through His indwelling among God’s people, and 7) His people or elect (not predeterminedly, I believe) as revealed through the Body of Christ from the disciples up until now and through the future to Eternity.
Thirdly, God is bigger, greater than cancer et al. Throughout all of these revelations of God (Creation, Covenant, Law, Prophets, Messiah, Holy Spirit, Elect), God has proven he is greater. Sometimes, we go through Hebrews 11 faith experiences, to get to Hebrews 12, but like the Hall of Faith-ers in Hebrews 11, by faith in God, we get there.
Thank you, Jesus.
“… all my academic study, while invaluable, would have remained purely abstract, if I hadn’t been there, on the ground.
“[[When] I saw things for myself, [then] I knew how to read what I was seeing.” – Alexander S. Vindman, from his book, “Truth Matters”.
The Bible and the testimony of the saints, these inform us so we can know how to read what we are seeing, in real life. However, those teachings only remain abstract, until we are there in the moment, boots on the ground. Cancer is definitely boots on the ground.
I want to be informed by God’s Word and the testimony of God’s saints who have been there and remained faithful, loving God first while loving their neighbor as themselves. Thank God for being our loving God, and for the love of His saints.
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elastigirl,
Try and work it out
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TULIP – “Doctrines of Grace” … rather than Grace – an encounter with the Living Christ
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Beware of any theology that has all the answers by putting God into a neat little box.
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Lowlandseer,
“Try and work it out”
+++++++++++++++
ah…
.
.
what i find so frustrating about these words is how abstract and lofty they are, sort of defying one’s ability to pin them down to something concrete, yet tossed around in a very utilitarian, even affected way.
like saying “let’s fellowship with one another, unlike the normative disembodied pattern in this postmodern milieu” instead of “hey, come on over”.
.
.
hard to see how I can go throughout my day (which for most of us is a long series of mundane tasks, with 1 or 2 little fun ones) in a way that evidences God’s greatness.
if I do a special “deed”, like something kind or generous, i’m thinking about the person and how I can best be of service. God’s greatness is not on my mind at all.
It’s about the other person, not God.
If it makes God happy and has something to do with God’s greatness, well, that’s a good thing. but that’s not my motivation – it would be sick to use the other person for my own ends, so that I can do something for God.
.
.
another angle: when atheist A does the exact same deed of kindness or generosity so they can be of service to person A the best way they can & for no other reason than love for their neighbor, seems to me God is just as happy and it’s just as much about God’s greatness.
.
.
i think christians get caught up in a vortex of taking-themselves-so-seriously-glorifying-God’s-glory-for-the-glory-of-God (& other lofty & unpractical things)…
…when really, they are simply doing the same charitable & kind things that most people (the goblins of the evil worldly world) are also doing every day, for nor reason other than it’s right and kind.
(speaking as a christian no longer in the emerald city)
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Thank you, Ava. So much to chew on here.
Yes, and amen!
My husband actually had a close friend of his read portions of Hebrews 11 for our wedding! One of his fave chapters in the Bible.
<
So true. We also had an Advent-themed wedding because of what I learned from Rev. Fleming Rutledge about Advent really being a 7-week season, really starting at All Saints’ Day and focusing on Jesus’ 2nd coming before narrowing in on his 1st coming at Christmas.
So much to learn from blessed saints who have gone before us.
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Elizabeth,
Oops, I didn’t succeed in re-quoting you! Oh well…
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Ava Aaronson,
Thank you Ava. Reading what we are seeing.
But designer frisson does sell. Unknowing outsiders model economic, mechanical and social crashes on their spiritual one (the power of dominionism already).
Exactly. (Applying to their high profile twin denominations as well.)
They did, that’s why it stands! They aim to attract what they will call disputaciousness (and isn’t). Carson and Keller trade on their deceptive image.
Ecumenism should be ground floor only. Seniors should stay in their own lanes and not “coalesce”.
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Senecagriggs,
We should all be doing a lot more running around loose.
In your tongue in cheek way, your authority for God’s Sovereignty is Sproul Senior, not God!
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“Fleming Rutledge (born 1937) is an American Episcopal priest and author. Ordained to the diaconate in 1975, she was one of the first women to be ordained to the priesthood in the Episcopal Church.
“Rutledge is widely recognized in the United States, in Canada, and in the UK as a preacher and lecturer who teaches other preachers. Her particular expertise is the intersection of biblical theology with contemporary culture, current events and politics, literature, music and art. She has often been invited to preach in prominent pulpits. She is a noted Tolkien scholar, bringing a Christian perspective to the study of the writings of J. R. R. Tolkien, who was a devout Roman Catholic.” – wikipedia
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That is a sad yet hilarious statement.
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I was raised with and by Calvinists. Their theology allows them to emotionally detach from reality and grief…and in so doing…often allowing themselves to take a pass on getting real and sharing the pain of others. Their indifference is tragic.
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Then Sproul worships a very small, insignificant god.
Because God is God and Jesus came to show us who God is, is enough reason for me to believe His promises are true. He doesn’t need to control every molecule for me to trust in Him.
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Quoting a former pastor of mine whom I highly respect, “It’s not WHAT you know, it’s WHO you know.”
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Marci Preheim has an interesting post in which she theorizes why intellectuals are drawn to Calvinism: “My parents were attracted to the ‘intellectual’ aspect of the Bible teaching in the cult I was raised in. They were deceived into thinking they were smart enough to find the narrow path—as if the Kingdom of God is found that way. They believed they had found the corner on Biblical truth, and were selected as the chosen people to go out and proselytize all those poor ignorant [bleeps] living in hedonism.” (http://www.marcipreheim.com/2018/03/07/the-theology-of-fear/)
This also fits with my experience in similar churches.
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Ava Aaronson,
Fleming Rutledge’s book The Crucifixion is very good.
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elastigirl,
Well put elastigirl, well put, and I concur.
As a father and a grandfather, I revel in the exploits of my kids and grandkids.
I have no need to bask in their glories and claim them as mine.
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Thx. For the recommend.
“The Crucifixion: Understanding the Death of Jesus Christ”, won Christianity Today’s 2017 Book of the Year Award – FWIW – not all CT’s award selections make sense.
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I think Sproul worships a puppet master.
I believe God has the absolute ability to control every molecule, but I believe that most of the time, He chooses not to control anything. I believe God gave us free will. I believe Adam and Eve had free will —— I don’t believe that God’s promises would been necessary if He had controlled them Adam and Eve …… and if He controlled us.
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I think both sides are doing the best they can to wrestle with a mysterious subject that our finite minds cannot fully comprehend or grasp.
One side is trying to deal with the problem of suffering by rooting it in God’s sovereignty over all things and his working everything for the good for those who love love him and for his own glory. But this approach raises difficult questions about the character of a God that would ordain suffering in some way for his own glory
The other side attempts to avoid this by rooting suffering in the fall, sin, and corruption of the world and human beings but this also raises character issues for God. How could God just sit and watch us suffer and do nothing, even if it is our fault? As a father, if one of my young daughters gets hurt or is suffering, I take action (whether they’ve brought it on themselves or not) because I love them and can’t bear to see them in pain. What would you think of me if I just stood there, saw them, and did nothing?
I think there is truth on both sides of this equation, but that in the end, we are trying to find a way to know the unknowable (from a human perspective). Job never got an answer to his question of “Why?” Essentially, God’s reply was “I’m God and you’re not.” But the ending of that book foreshadows the ultimate promise that God has made to all who are resting in Jesus Christ for eternal life… That no matter what we have to endure in this life, all will be made right and restored in the end.
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Exactly. It all works in a way that is beyond human comprehension. To attempt to put the mind of God into a neat theological box is to stand in arrogance before Him.
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Most intellectuals I know are not very smart. There’s a vast difference. Education does not produce one ounce of revelation.
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I call this the “God willed it, so get over it” syndrome, which explains why so many Calvinists come across as cold-hearted.
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The problem may be more acute than that. It appears that the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo implies that God is responsible for the suffering that arises in the world He creates — He chose that outcome (assuming absolute sovereignty) or was willing to run that risk (assuming genuine contingency in the created world). I don’t see the flaw in David B Hart’s analysis of this (in his God, Creation and Evil: The Moral Meaning of creatio ex nihilo ). Hart doesn’t use this argument to reject absolute sovereignty, though. He uses it to argue that God will put everything right in the end (and, for Hart, this means “universalism”).
I think that theodicy remains a significant challenge for consensus Christianity.
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As I develop many of my comments, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. The American church has taken so many detours I don’t know if we will ever find our way home.
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“Don’t Waste YOUR Cancer.”
— The Pious Piper
Apparently God’s Glory is in our Death, Destruction, and Misery.
Just Because He Can.
In’shal’lah.
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I see “God’s Speshul Pets”.
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BINGO! (And I ain’t talking about Bluey’s little sister.)
Who needs Christ when you have CALVIN?
CALVIN who alone Has God All Figured Out.
Do they even know what they’re screaming from their rooftops?
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There’s a story of an interview with one of Fred “GAWD H8S FAGS” Phelps’ ilk – Either a relative or follower.
When asked point-blank “What do you believe in?”, she literally SPAT out “We Believe in the Doctrines of Grace.”
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I just pulled it out of the pile. It’s a thick read, over 600 pages, but reader-friendly. She also recommends John Stott’s The Cross of Christ.
MOD: You put up your email address as your name. I changed it making a command decision it was likely a typo. GBTC
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“O GREAT CHEMOSH! O GREAT BA’AL! SEND DEATH AND DESTRUCTION DOWN ON THESE MY ENEMIES!”
— Imprecatory Prayer from a Fifties Bible-Epic movie, at a (Hays Code-cleaned up) child sacrifice to Baal-Chemosh
Incidentally, I found out much later that “Ba’al” can be translated as “Lord”. Think about that next time you encounter a walking Jack Chick tract whose every other word is “The LORD, The LOOOOOORD, The LOOOOOOOOOOOOORD”.
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Calvin (like Mohammed) solved the Paradox of Evil by putting God beyond Good and Evil, i.e. God Wills What God Wills, and who are we to call it Evil? Corollary: If God Wills It, It is Automatically Good. Even if it makes god into a Cosmic Horror like Cthulhu.
The Paradox of Evil:
1) God is All-Powerful.
2) God is All-Good.
3) Evil Exists.
Any two of the three, no problem.
All three, you have a Paradox.
(Paradoxes exist. Deal with it. Preferably not like Calvin or Mohammed.)
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Yes, her pastor-husband Alex DiPrima is a 9Marksist. I thought the name sounded familiar, I ran across this skewed article written by him when it was being promoted anew in the run-up to the votes at this month’s SBC Anuual Meeting.
https://twitter.com/9Marks/status/1209125052760887302
“Five faithful women in Spurgeon’s life”
Alex DiPrima’s article left out entirely Spurgeon’s beloved oldest sister Eliza Jackson, who was a preacher!
https://books.google.com/books?id=zzcrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA601
“A LADY PREACHER.⸺A sister of Mr. Spurgeon is preaching with much success at Willingham, in Cambridgeshire, where her husband is a Baptist minister. The cases from Willingham tried before the local bench have decreased to such an extent, that the police authorities have expressed their thanks to the lady preacher as being the instrument of the improvement.”
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But who needs “So-Called ‘Saints'” when you “Have SCRIPTURE(TM)!!!!!”
That was the drill when I was In-Country, not Calvin.
I kept having this mental image of those Uber-Christians actually finding themselves in the presence of God, and turning their backs on Him so they could use His Shekinah as a reading light for their Bible Study.
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“The world is broken.”
— Chief Bogo, Zootopia
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Max, have you ever heard the filk of that that goes:
“My hope is built on nothing less than
Freeze-dried foods and Smith and Wesson.”
Was real popular around Y2K, even in the churches.
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The DiPrimas were sent out by Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Mebane, NC to plant ‘Emmanuel Church’ in Winston-Salem:
https://www.grbc.net/missions/church-plant-2017/
‘Emmanuel Church’, sounds so much better than ‘Reformed Baptist’, doesn’t it?
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“Everyone’s got a perfect plan.
Until the first time they get hit.”
— boxer Mike Tyson
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While (in the words of Rich Buhler) “God Lives in the Real World.”
No wonder they keep missing Him.
They’re in an Alternate Reality of Alternative Facts.
Alternative Facts pulling that little Faith train from the Four Spiritual Laws tracts.
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“In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.” (Dwight D. Eisenhower)
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Not “funeral”, O Ye Of Little FAITH (unlike MEEEEEEE).
A Homegoing Celebration(TM).
“HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
“HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!
HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! JOY!”
— Ren & Stimpy, “Stimpy’s Happy Helmet”
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In this, he agrees 110% with Mohammed abu-Hamid al-Ghazali’s Incoherence of the Philosophers, where when a piece of cloth “burns”, Al’lah is Willing the cloth out of existence and Willing the flame, smoke, and ashes into existence, No Connection Whatsoever.
P.S. Did Wondering Eagle actually kick you off, or did his blog (and/or Jack from Canada’s counter-trolling) just get too hot for you?
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Isn’t that what you get when two ThD theologians debate the things of God?
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Woo.
Been on a roll this morning.
Who needs drugs when you have insomnia?
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Bible Verses are not variables or idioms, they’re FIXED CONSTANTS.
A Party Line of one-liners rewordgitated without engaging a single neuron above the brainstem.
Chaplain Mike over at Internet Monk speculated that the one-two punch of the Age of Reason and Industrial Revolution caused a paradigm shift in how we view the Bible. From the Old Stories of God and Man to a “Spiritual Engineering Manual” and checklist of Fact, Fact, Fact, Check, Check, Check.
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“A [protest] demonstration is thoughtfully planned but organically executed.”
— Garry Trudeau, early Doonesbury
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“Always use Proper Code Words.”
— Hauptsturmfuehrer-SS/SD Eric Dorf, Holocaust (Seventies miniseries), Babi Yar scene
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Jesus died and rose from the grave, to sit at the right hand of our God in Heaven.
OTOH, who is Calvin? And who resurrected the Calvin skeletal remains, to place his sorry-a** dust and ashes on a pedestal as their idol to rule their churches beyond the grave, where he actually still resides? So, the dead now worship the dead? Pathetic. The dead ARE worshipping the dead. Have at it, I guess. It’s a choice. Dead end, going nowhere fast, choice.
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How did this mindset get started and woven into evangelical protestantism to the point where the Almighty gets cast as a self-absorbed cosmic narcissist?
Anybody?
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It comes down to biblical literalism.
This is God’s creation. Everything in it is in his control. He can intervene, Jesus proved that but he doesn’t (unless you’re Pentecostal and believe he’s raising the dead in India) or if you believe your prayers have been answered, it’s very arbitrary.
In the cases of abuse by those who serve him, he does not intervene, or even when the most heinous crimes are committed from the Holocaust, to the killing fields of Cambodia, to serial killers and on and on.
A past murder case has been in the news. Paul Bernardo was a serial rapist and killer. In 1992 he abducted, tortured and killed two teenage schoolgirls. One was held for 24 hours, the other for three days. You can spout the “free will” argument at me all you want, but if Jesus can provide wine for weddings and curse fig trees, I don’t think intervention here is entirely out of line.
If god is in control and has demonstrated he can intervene in the past for trivial events like a wedding, can feed the five thousand, and rain food for the Israelites in the desert then none of this makes any logical sense.
So the conclusion is, god allows it. And since god cannot be evil, there must be some good purpose to it. So these events happen for his “glory”.
For strict literalists there can be no other way or the whole thing collapse like a game of Jenga.
This is not to denigrate the happy endings of those who survive events like cancer (I’ve had a medical scare with my son so I get it) but now I’m in inclined to believe that God/Jesus/spirit doesn’t really play a role.
It’s up to us to act in the face of injustice and adversity. As that great prophet Smokey the Bear states “only you can prevent forest fires”
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Thanks! I was in a hurry to get out the door.
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Projection. By the self-absorbed grifting theo-bro narcissists.
Parishioner: “My young friend died in a car accident.” Or, from cancer, whatever.
Preacher-boy: “There, there, Dear. It’s for the glory of God [Projection], and for MY spectacular event of the preaching of the Gospel, with attendees or giving units, right here down in front of my pulpit.”
With Theo-boys that use the church for grift: Everything is leveraged for narcissistic supply. (But not for God; He doesn’t need this.) Theo-boys, the middlemen, live on the dole, using their church to “pay” for their “gift” of pastoring given by the Holy Spirit to their church, so everything is all in for their paychecks.
Jesus was never a narcissistic showman like what we see in churches. Jesus often said, “Tell no one,” after performing a miracle. He would also refuse to talk about certain subjects that have been used for Evangelical marketing purposes in our day (End Times literature & films & conferences & tapes, ad nauseum, for example):
Matthew 8:4; Matthew 9:30; Matthew 12:16; Matthew 16:20; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 21:27;
Mark 1:34; Mark 1:44; Mark 3:12; Mark 5:43; Mark 7:24; Mark 7:36; Mark 8:26; Mark 8:30; Mark 9:9; Mark 9:30; Mark 11:33;
Luke 4:41; Luke 5:14; Luke 8:56; Luke 9:21; Luke 9:36; Luke 20:8.
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Ted,
Thx, again.
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I am beginning to delete comments surrounding political figures. I have done that the 3 comments this weekend.
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Jack,
I concur.
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Like the one intellectual snob I encountered many-many years ago who lived so detached in his head that he described all-out nuclear war as “only a three-point-seven gigadeath situation”.
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Which probably already has a church on every corner, like Starbucks in Seattle.
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Or, the interpretation is that the one who suffers and is not divinely rescued, somehow deserves it. They’ve brought a curse on themselves.
Or, the interpretation is that the one who suffers NEEDS the suffering as some type of character lesson, to get them in shape, as their character is deficient (similar to carrying a curse, like above).
Bah, humbug.
Job never got the why answered. But it certainly wasn’t either of these two aforementioned.
The long game is the presence of God throughout. And resolution with God in Eternity, where the unfortunate rich man burns with thirst and the anawim like Lazarus can’t reach him as it’s too late. (It behooves the blessed to share with the qualified needy now.)
We also are witnesses to the sufferings of the saints throughout history, and the sufferings of Jesus. We belong. It’s a blessed belonging.
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They definitely have it backwards.
She can be forgiven since she’s in the middle of a nightmare. TGC? Not so much.
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I’m very grateful to Dee for this heartfelt post.
Rather than the volumes upon volumes of effective work that destroys calvinism, I rely upon a verse that clarifies and underlines the loving character of God:
“…the last enemy to be destroyed is death.”
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Max, I hope that as you develop your comments you’ll remember how comforting and refreshing they are to at least this tired old soul.
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At one point I had to tell the preschool staff I might not live to see Christmas with our little boy.
How dare anybody tell me what to think about life-threatening illness.
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Friend,
must have been so rough. i’m so sorry.
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“I will still be the same
when you are old and gray,
and I will take care of you.
I created you. I will carry you
and save you.”
(Isaiah 46:4)
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elastigirl,
Thank you. I’m grateful to be here.
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Here’s a prayer that helped me enormously:
This is another day, O Lord. I know not what it will bring forth, but make me ready, Lord, for whatever it may be. If I am to stand up, help me to stand bravely. If I am to sit still, help me to sit quietly. If I am to lie low, help me to do it patiently. And if I am to do nothing, let me do it gallantly. Make these words more than words, and give me the Spirit of Jesus. Amen.
—Book of Common Prayer
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Jack,
So these events happen for his “glory”.
+++++++++++++++++++++
A. his glory: the wondrous light-filled radiance emanating from God’s magnificence and greatness
B. tortuous pain & concomitant devastating grief
C. “for his glory”: pumping up, adding to, and enhancing the wondrous light-filled radiance emanating from God’s magnificence
i’m climbing the walls with perplexity as to how A + B = C, and how A + C = B.
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Friend,
Beautiful. Thx for sharing. Very helpful.
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Friend,
Praise God you made it through the valley! The Wartburgers wouldn’t know what to do without you!
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Ava Aaronson,
You are most welcome.
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Max,
Aw, such kind words! Thank you, Max. I don’t know what I’d do without the Wartburgers.
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I find the problem of evil and suffering deeply troubling. It is the central challenge to Christianity.
I’ve found the most peace and comfort by letting go of a engineer’s perspective of searching for cause and effect in the question “Why?” and replacing it with a focus on “Who.”
Who? Jesus: past, present, and future. So far, mostly the future has been mentioned in this thread, where Jesus will “wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”
But there is also Jesus past and present.
Jesus past:
His life and character: He is the “image of the invisible God” and as He said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Compare any mental construction of who God is with Jesus who came to us so that we see God’s character in terms we could understand.
His suffering: He suffered the things we suffer : rejection and betrayal and abandonment by his own family and community, physical pain, sexual humiliation while being beaten and mocked while naked, spiritual separation from the Father on the cross. He understands.
His death : Whenever I’ve heard Is 53 taught, the focus has been on Christ’s death for our sins. I am not a theologian, but when I read vs. 3-5, it seems to me that he bore on the cross, not just our sins, but our suffering. (I’ll use words from several translations.)
He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows (suffering, great pain) and acquainted with grief; (familiar with pain, familiar with sickness)
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely our griefs (suffering, sicknesses) He Himself bore,
And our sorrows (pain) He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
(On Biblegateway, you can search parallel translations for a few verses. Since I can’t read Greek or Hebrew, I find it helpful to see the various ways a word can be translated. )
I’ve never seen this expounded on (though it wouldn’t surprise me if the Eastern Orthodox teach on this
dainca, Do you know?), but it seems to be saying that not only did he lead a life where he, too, suffered, but that in addition to our specific sins, he also bore our specific sufferings on the cross.
Jesus present. Several places Jesus makes it clear that He experiences our suffering Himself: “Inasmuch as you did it to the least of these (sick, in prison, hungry, homeless, stranger,etc) , you did it to Me.” “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?” Emmanuel. God with us. God suffering with us.
Focusing on Jesus past, present, and future is the only answer I have to the great question of “Why?” I can’t answer the “Why?” but I can love and trust the “Who.”
I hope that Jenna experiences Emmanuel, Himself. He is not an “ism” whether Calvinism or any other kind.
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I’m with you.
I wanna’ be charitable with the pre-school staff and say that they most likely meant well, but on the other hand, my other side wants to tell em’ where they can stick their platitudes and pep talks.
The last thing a person who’s in a cauldron of $h|t needs is preachy poo-poo.
What they need is just a real human being to be there with them and for them.
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Eyewitness,
“but it seems to be saying that not only did he lead a life where he, too, suffered, but that in addition to our specific sins, he also bore our specific sufferings on the cross.
Jesus present. Several places Jesus makes it clear that He experiences our suffering Himself…
Focusing on Jesus past, present, and future is the only answer I have to the great question of “Why?” I can’t answer the “Why?” but I can love and trust the “Who.”
+++++++++++++++++
hi, Eyewitness.
yes, i, too have gotten comfort and encouragement from Jesus past, present, & future.
i love that he’s a human, just like me. like in tarzan (the Disney animated feature), he notices that his hand doesn’t quite fit his adopstive ape-mom’s hand, as a reminder that he doesn’t quite fit in. he’s an outsider.
then when he meets Jane, he finally finds someone just like him – whose hand matches his.
i take great comfort in that Jesus’ hand matches mine. He’s just like me.
quite frankly, I think Jesus feels the same. i am just like him. (& just like you, & all of us). he belongs.
i can conceive that God/Jesus/HS can be lonely. there really is no lone like them.
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Eyewitness,
Eyewitness,
i’d like to hear more about how Jesus’ past impacts you on a practical level.
i do take stock in the passage “by His stripes we are healed”, as relating to physical/psychological/emotional injury & infirmity.
i’ve lost quite a bit of my…, oh, perhaps vision or conviction on that, and many other ‘christian’ things, too.
i’ve purposely drained myself of as much magical fancifulness and faith in idioms…and faith in faith itself… in search of the few brass tacks that it all boils down to – that i can apply in a practical way.
i think i’ve found a few of the few of them.
i’d like to find the practical brass tack that stems from “he also bore our specific sufferings on the cross” (Isaiah 53).
can you comment on your thoughts on that?
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I’ve also found it helpful in some situations I have encountered to focus on “What?” What are you saying to me, Lord?
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I concluded that God was saying the same thing all the time: God is with me in good moments and bad.
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Immanuel: “God with us”
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But that’s the First and Last and Only thing you’ll get in the Christianese Bubble.
“SHINY HAPPY PEOPLE”, just like that Duggar Documentary that’s swamping YouTube.
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I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “practical” and your question has made me think further. So let me know if I’m not answering your actual question and some of my answer may well be “I don’t know.” I will probably have to share in pieces as I am likely to be interrupted soon and later, will be preparing for potentially dangerous weather.
I think actual beliefs translate into actions, so I think there are implications for our own behavior of Jesus taking on our pain, affliction, sorrows, etc. on the cross in addition to our sin versus if the cross was only about sin.
The practical application that it’s NOT is that we can therefore expect instant physical healing in this life if we have enough faith. He died for sins, yet nearly all streams of belief allow that we still sin in this life. So scratch that one.
One practical application would change the church’s understanding of the reality of pain, affliction, suffering and therefore how the church responds to pain and the seriousness with which God treats it.
Suffering is deep, it’s real, and not some shallow thing that is glossed over by God and therefore shouldn’t be glossed over by us, either. (Human beings, not just Christian human beings, have a tendency to gloss over pain of others and offer a “cheer-up, dearie” or “buck-up son” “comfort” to the afflicted. I remember being shocked as a young adult when a friend’s spouse died, and people started in with the false comfort at the memorial service. “You’re still young. You’ll find a new spouse!” And within a couple weeks, people expected things to be getting back to normal and began to verbally chastise. False comfort, platitudes and blaming others for their pain are ways to make ourselves (not the sufferer) feel better and relieve us of the burden of caring.
But wouldn’t Jesus bearing pain/afflictions/suffering on the cross give it the kind of weight that would as a practical matter cause us to also weight it heavily too and walk alongside them for as long as needed?
I think another practical application would be how the church deals with survivors of abuse.
If a church or an individual doesn’t have a category for a problem in this world other than “sin”, then it feeds into sin-leveling and “both-sidesing” in abuse situations. (Yes, he hit you and that was wrong, but he was tired from a hard day of work and came home to a messy house and the dinner he was expecting wasn’t ready. You need to own your part of the sin.) It’s a horrible mistake to treat a wound as a sin issue. It is guaranteed to cause a larger, deeper wound. If Jesus bore sin only, then abuse is reduced to a sin and forgiveness issue. So the survivor’s role is to forgive and presumably that fixes everything and she or he can “move forward.” And if the survivor isn’t moving forward, it’s therefore sin. Some churches categorize anyone recognizing the impact of afflictions as getting that insight from “modern psychology” as opposed to “biblical counseling” and therefore that can be dismissed. But what would be the difference if churches instead had a rich understanding of how God views suffering? Wouldn’t their care be more victim-centered? Would it not follow that we should be doing all we can to dress the wounds?
Need to go for now.
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You’ve got that right! We live just a few miles north of Winston-Salem, and I worked for many years in Winston-Salem itself.
To paraphrase Bertie Wooster, you can’t bung a brick around here without hitting a church.
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It’s hard to imagine that people can’t just keep their pieholes shut and realize that they’re only sprinkling salt on the wounds.
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In my own life—not how you reach out to hurting people, but in my OWN life—one of the things I ponder is the very definition of evil. Suffering I get, btdt and have the tshirts to prove it. But there have been some times, when a severe situation of suffering did prevent even more suffering down the line. Sometimes I think God must view me like I viewed my children as infants in need of vaccinations. They really did hurt, really were scared, really did not like the pediatrician giving the shot or dear old mom holding them for it, but in the long view, what to a baby is a time of horror and pain is lifesaving. So I did it anyway.
I’m not very good at it, but I am working on understanding that God is fitting us for heaven, and sometimes He uses suffering and what seems evil to me to knock some granite off my form. He really does intend for me to conform to the image of Christ. And I am so far from it, sometimes the chiseling hurts. I am trying to learn to trust that when the bad stuff (from my perspective) stuff happens, since God could have prevented it and did not, maybe He allowed it for my ultimate benefit. Maybe from His perspective it is a good thing.
And sometimes I wonder if we need this vale of tears in order to fully enjoy heaven? And is the evil I find in myself, which does hurt other people at times (we all do), there so I really understand my own need for grace? Jesus taught that the one who is forgiven much loves much.
So I go on, wondering how much our perspectives will change once we reach Glory?
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This speaker terms it, “Spiritual Bypassing”:
https://youtu.be/b9T9s6DUcIo
… using the spiritual (verses, teaching, some sort of spirituality) to ignore or bypass or override instead of addressing human need, pain, suffering, mystery, and such.
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Job may not have known why but the writer of Job was privy to the conversation between god and Satan where a bet was made on how job would react to adversity.
In the process god allows Satan to afflict job and kill his children (who are completely innocent).
Unfortunately this bolsters the case that god is in control of all suffering and evil because he allows Satan free reign to inflict this suffering.
Personally, I interpret job’s suffering through the lens of a time when death and ruin were much closer than many of us in North America experience. Most children did not live to adulthood, women died in childbirth, if you lived to 40 you were considered old, and such living was hard. In mythology gods routinely interacted with the mundane so two supernatural beings playing Vegas odds wasn’t so far fetched.
Look at the happy ending, job got new kids. This seems callous to us but we aren’t living in the early iron age.
As for spending an eternity watching people get punished, that doesn’t appeal to me. I take no joy in contemplating the torture of others much less sitting and watching it in comfort in heaven.
My brother is a drug addict and basically a bad apple. I don’t what he does but I couldn’t gleefully watch him thirst for all eternity.
I don’t know what eternity holds but I believe that we must be kind in this reality to our fellow humans, regardless of what our punishment may be in the next.
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When Dr Michio Kaku was asked what lies beyond the event horizon of a black hole, he stated “a singularity”.
When asked what that is, he said “it’s a nice way of saying – we don’t know”
I’m sure there’s an answer, and I have my own thoughts but ultimately – I don’t know.
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I think Calvinism is not the only version of Christian belief that uses spiritual bypassing to avoid coming face to face with the incredibly dark and agonizing realities of life, but it does intellectualize that spiritual bypassing. (Just learned that term recently and cannot stop seeing that behavior everywhere!)
My sister has lost her twenties to a horrible combination of chronic health conditions that will be with her for the rest of her life without a miracle. The road back to some semblance of health has been long and extremely difficult and is far from over. My entire family has sustained massive damage as a result of her illness – it’s difficult to put into words how all of us as individuals and the web of relationships that makes up our family have been affected, let alone the ways her life has been destroyed by her suffering.
And yet in a conversation about why does God let bad things happen, a friend (who is not a Calvinist) told me that my sister’s twenties were not lost, that God allowed her illness for good, because look at how strong my sister’s faith is and how strong a person she is. I do see how some good has come from my sister’s suffering, but I refuse to believe that God decided my sister was due for a character arc that would help her to grow and change, as my friend described it, referencing Romans 8:28. Within the same conversation she said how she hoped her own sister would have a comfortable life, and somehow did not realize how cruel that was to say to me when she had just used my sister as an example of the opposite. Apparently God thinks only some people need suffering in their character arc! My dad was just diagnosed with brain cancer and I am expecting similar comments to come my way from people who are deeply uncomfortable with allowing suffering to just be, without some kind of higher purpose behind it.
It’s behavior similar to when people can’t manage to talk about their future hopes or plans without caveating every sentence with “Lord willing!” or attribute every single major life event to God’s orchestration. I wrestle with the paradox of God being active in the world and in our lives and yet that so much that happens, good and evil, seems totally random. Prayer is not a magic spell, God does not dictate our lives, but when does he intervene on our behalf and when does he just allow the nature of a broken world and ordinary life to take its course? Let alone getting into the perplexing waters of free will or good coming out of suffering and evil…
I have come to the place where if someone wants to sugarcoat life with spiritual bypassing or hand off responsibility for life decisions to God, I do not trust their faith or anything they have to say about God. It’s dishonest and frankly, not remotely Christlike. I think they are lying to themselves and to whoever has to listen to their nonsense.
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Eyewitness,
Thank you, Eyewitness, for taking the time to share your thoughts. I can see you put a lot of effort into that. I appreciate your thoughts on caring (without platitudes & pat answers) for people in pain.
“I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “practical””
yes, what do i mean…
well, i just went down a wormhole putting together this grand Scooby Doo metaphor…
but for now i’ll just say not all truths have practical application (like, ‘the glory of God’).
i’m interested in the few truths that actually have application that is first possible, then practical. do-able, & actually helpful to me & others.
and it seems like an excellent way to do God proud.
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Jack,
i’m interested to know your thoughts.
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As a lifelong Christian, I will venture one suggestion.
When you’re gravely ill, the person you need to focus on is YOU.
If you focus outward—on your family’s hardships, on the work you struggle to do, even on Jesus—you might be too upset to cooperate fully in medical decisions, and to rest as you undergo treatment.
Patients deserve the best treatment available to them, without guilt or pressure. They deserve love, comfort, and help. Jesus understands this. He is not a narcissist. I daresay he wants you to show up for appointments and get as much sleep as you can.
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Dee—could God have prevented any of the pain and suffering that you describe in your post above?
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Interestingly enough, the understanding of God’s providence and evil according to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is not substantially different than the classic Calvinist understanding of God’s providence of evil as given in the Westminster Confession of Faith
http://cyclopedia.lcms.org/display.asp?t1=P&word=PROVIDENCE
https://opc.org/wcf.html#Chapter_05
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Muff Potter,
“How did this mindset get started and woven into evangelical protestantism to the point where the Almighty gets cast as a self-absorbed cosmic narcissist?
Anybody?”
++++++++++++++++
from time immemorial, leaders of underleaders using scare tactics to control people.
some of the underleaders recognize this means of effective control as desirable for their own ends.
everyone else falls under the spell of leaders playing the God card, turning off their common sense, gut instinct, and self-respect.
…plus whatever degree of superstition is woven into the culture at the time.
well, it’s a shot, at least.
class dismissed.
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Looking at 3 different responses:
1. Biblical Literalism, from Jack.
2. Projection: God is every much a self-absorbed narcissist as the TheoBros perceive/project him to be. (yours truly)
3. Scare tactics to control people, from elastigirl.
All food for thought.
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If there is a god then they work through our hands and actions.
In a Christian context, take what is good and then apply it.
And what’s good? Things that don’t harm others. Providing comfort to those in need, not being so full of yourself as to think you have a manifest destiny. You’re unique – just like the 8 billion humans on this planet.
I don’t think these are necessarily Christian ideas, the “golden rule” was documented by Confucius 500 years before Jesus but hey however you follow it….
But if your sole motivation is to secure a place in heaven because you fear heck then you’re in it for the wrong reasons. That’s just rats trying to leave the cosmic sinking ship. Do the right thing because it’s the right thing whether your sure of your eternal destination or not.
Like the great prophet Wilfred Brimley stated “it’s the right thing to do.
Of course he was talking about Quaker oats, but they can pretty righteous….both Quakers and oats…
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Jack,
“But if your sole motivation is to secure a place in heaven because you fear heck then you’re in it for the wrong reasons.”
+++++++++++++++++
It seems to me that much of christianity amounts to doing what’s right because “the bible tells me so”, and to please God.
The christian avoids sin because God wouldn’t be pleased with them.
It seems so very self-centered. “How many God-points can i rack up?! How shiny can I keep my crown?! How happy can I make God?”
At the very least, it’s so God-centered.
I don’t think God gives a rat’s a$$ about God’s so-called glory. I think God would prefer it if people forgot about themselves & “Guys, quit with all flattery and adulation and just do the right thing. You’re making this much harder than it needs to be.”
.
.
I look at my agnostic cousins… they are very honest (they don’t permit themselves to lie – “because that would be wrong”, in A’s own words.) And they are very compassionate – because they feel compassion for someone suffering.
Imagine that.
Someone in the evil, worldly world feels compassion and acts on it. For no other reason than they care about the other person. They didn’t need any book or any pastor or so-caled devotional or christian how-to book to tell them these things.
this is old news. but felt like sayin it.
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Eyewitness,
They don’t undergo sanctification (they are only a few comfortable upper middle class indolents so it’s all easy for them and always will be because the establishment will always see them right) because they don’t believe the gifts were sent (and Stott taught like this though he tried to fudge the issue sometimes). That’s why they don’t believe there should be any providence for anybody else’s “non needs”.
Torrey, Ryle (bishop of Liverpool), Winnington-Ingram (bishop of London), imposed draconian stoicism and when in the last 30 years it was decided faux “charismatic” would be trendy it all became further poisoned. This was unlike Martyn Lloyd Jones (not upper middle class) who was genuine charismatic and genuine sanctification all along, and sensed the needs and strategies for strengthening, and respected all.
Result: person who gave me a lift the other day, herself a mother, when I explained my long term and worsening crisis details, said “it will work out”, instead of promising to implore Our Lord. And her fellow congregants are indifferent to the amount of real compassion she still manages towards me.
(She does take cancer seriously because that comes to people previously unflawed / unblotted, like it did to her and it looks good for such a congregation to do so.)
They all deny there is a crisis on, in theology and churches’ teachings, in the milieu their children’s minds have to cope with (never mind their neighbours), the instability of establishments, etc.
Because of the effectiveness of their cherished dominionism, which cherishes them so well, the secular establishment is sanctified in entrenching the exact same attitudes and policies.
This is the cause of the disrespectful lack of prayer of “christianity”. They claim those different from them are out to compete and destroy. Oh no I am not a healthful resource for them at all. There is no gospel in Malawi or Land’s End, because there is no gospel in the X household (where I saw who is suffering) or when pretending to converse with me
If they are not sick to their stomachs, there is something wrong with them. And there is.
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Denial = a river in Egypt AND AMBIGUOUS LOSS OF DOCTRINE.
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Your questions are all typical questions for those who hate Calvinism. “Why would God send a man to molest my daughter?” etc. I do not have answers. But Joseph did. “You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. Genesis 50:20. That paradigm says that God controls everything, even what Satan, or evil men, mean for evil. He has good purposes in everything. Everything, eventually. Joseph suffered, really, not pretend suffering. He was not molested, but he suffered. So did Job. And how did Job respond? “But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold.”
I do not apologize for my frame of reference. And I am sure Max and all the rest of you will scorn me, but I’d rather believe in a God who had absolute control over Satan and the world and the universe than a God who only reacts. I cannot explain your daughter’s cancer. I am not God. He can. And I have seen suffering, just as painful as yours.
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Bob M,
“I do not apologize for my frame of reference. And I am sure Max and all the rest of you will scorn me,”
++++++++++++++++++
is it scorn to say i observe that you are very insensitive?
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Why weaken your (apparent) point by imputing? Obviously I (like Elasti, and anyone else that is going to say the same as us this afternoon) stand apart from your “sweep”!
Given that almost all of christianity nowadays is calvinism and its identical twins, and that you gave straight Scripture quotes, why not just let the point make itself?
All the religion I most gravitated to, partly resembled calvinism. God didn’t name it and doesn’t manage it, so if its quality lowered and it’s still called by the same name, then its quality lowered.
Are you admitting that your frame of reference is to impute, and not to talk to us about Jesus?
The actual quotes you give, in fact say exactly the same as our comments so far.
Your best strategy for self defence (good motive) is not attack at delicate moments.
God doesn’t directly micro-control most things. It takes a more sovereign God to create a contingent universe and us in it in His image. Eternity is the backdrop on which possibilities find limits. God sends many good angels. Our calling is to intercede and supplicate (as some calvinists forgot).
Localities and nations are in mourning for social and material destruction. Mourn with those who mourn.
I wrote my self-debriefings from some of my bad churches. Then I recycled the lot because I felt spooked. Now that certain authorities have started signalling a willingness to listen, I can only recall in fragments. Never let anyone be told not to keep their own written debriefings.
Supposing a person with chiari formation (not called that) had a proposed support plan cancelled, inappropriate orthodonty, continual gaslighting (some of it not malicious) about their relative strengths, headaches, loneliness, lack of contact with prayerful religions, etc.
Suppose a shamed parent of the same person already suffered the loss of a close relative who mustn’t be talked about (war, race etc).
Just for me myself, I don’t attribute my survival to any brand name or faction. Why would anyone join Stoicism to Christ (Who was its opposite) and try to disguise that by calling Him Calvin? Would Calvin be uneasy with that?
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Bob M,
Here’s the thing, unless you all are going to deny God’s omnipotence and/or omniscience, you have the same hard questions that all theists have. Why is it better for God to merely allow someone to suffer something horrible than it is for God to ordain it for a good purpose that we often cannot fully explain on this side of glory? When God allows the murder or whatever of an innocent person, do you really think He has absolutely no purpose behind it? Somehow I doubt that.
This isn’t unique to Calvinism. The problem of evil is something all forms of Christianity must deal with, be they Arminian, Calvinist, Molinist, Thomist, or something else. And the only answer possible if you don’t reject God’s omniscience and omnipotence is that God has a good reason for allowing evil to take place. And a good reason that is almost always beyond our grasp.
Did those infant boys “deserve” to be killed by the angel of death in Pharaoh’s day? God sent death. What about the disease, etc. that was unleashed by the plagues in Egyptians, including children who presumably never owned an Israelite slave? God sent plagues. What about the children in the cities of Jericho and Ai? God told the Israelites to kill everyone in those cities.
These are hard questions that even non-Calvinists have to deal with. A strong doctrine of original sin and a purposeful providence has some answers, though not exhaustive ones. And there are plenty of non-Calvinists who teach both. Including Lutheranism, many forms of Arminianism, Thomists, Molinists, etc.
Maybe Calvinists at times can be faulted for too quickly providing a pat answer, but that’s it. Every other form of historic Christian theism has to deal with these questions, and the answers they provide aren’t going to be any “better” than Calvinism.
If God in no sense whatsoever intends for a child to get cancer, why doesn’t he stop it?
I have a child with a rare genetic disorder that has required multiple risky surgeries and who is also autistic and may never be able to live on his own or have a “normal” life. Does God have a good purpose for this even if I cannot fully explain it? The alternative is that God has no good purpose or that He has an evil purpose for it. The second is a non-starter; the former is a God who can’t keep His creation under control and therefore can’t actually help me or save me. Maybe something is going to happen that he didn’t anticipate or can’t control to throw his whole plan off track.
I have no great love for the Gospel Coalition, but this post seems very wrong-headed. When the woman says Calvinism is getting her through cancer, she means that the doctrine of God she has received is giving her comfort and peace—that is, God is getting her through cancer. That is what she means on any charitable reading.
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Predestined cancer? Predetermined abuse? Prearranged suffering?
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I don’t scorn ‘you’, Bob … I just have trouble with your theology as I read the whole of Scripture.
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God planned your attempt to establish yourself as a better Christian than the rest of us. Bravo.
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Jesus never promised that things would be easy. But, He did promise that He would always be there for us. Immanuel … “God with us”
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Some of you would be shocked to know that I have Calvinist friends! But they are “Old” Calvinists, not “New” Calvinists. I have found classical Calvinism to be populated for the most part by followers who are civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. These new boys on the block are a totally different breed … they move by stealth and deception, worship dead and living reformed idols, and proclaim Calvinism to be the one true gospel. They talk more about Piper than they do Jesus. Christians have every right to be concerned about the NeoCal movement and to speak into it. I don’t hate anybody ensnared by this rebellion, but I do hate what it is doing to the American church.
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All is as Allah wills it.
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The best commentary on these kinds of things I’ve ever read is:
The Fed-Up Man of Faith by Shmuley Boteach (a rabbi).
It makes way more sense than Piper piffle, MacArthur malarkey, and Dever drivel.
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Wow. A woman struggling with a cancer diagnosis and the treatment it requires writes a simple article about her experience trusting God, and the WW crowd piles on! There is some pretty nasty stuff in these comments. I think the title that she chose (if she chose it at all) was ill-advised and misleading. Most of her thoughts are fairly conventional and devotional and, for the most part, well within the bounds of historic Protestant piety. I wish she didn’t quote John Piper, whose ministry has bent too far in the ‘sovereignty of God’ above all else direction (unlike his hero, Jonathan Edwards). I do not pay any attention to TGC, YRR, Mohler, 9Marks, Dever, or anyone else in the neo-Calvinist circles, so I am not defending anyone except the woman who wrote that article. Having said that, the venom and spleen-venting that runs through so many responses is, in my mind, inexcusable and way out of touch with basic NT ethics. If anyone reads my response, I’m prepared to be on the receiving end of it myself. Bring on the caricatures, stereo-types, and guilt-by-associations that I’ve seen so often in the WW responses. I think the repsonses, over the years, have redirected a valuable contribution to accountability in American evangelicalism toward some weird group catharsis.
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G Smith,
Hi
Welcome to TWW since your comment was tagged as a new commenter. I am glad you have spent much time reading TWW over the years. It seems like we touched a nerve.
Could you please be more specific as I was in my post? I find it difficult to understand such a generalized critique.
As you may have noticed, I was most specific regarding my commentary. I am also one person who has lived through a similar experience and interpreted God’s role in my daughter’s life quite differently than the “Calvinism got me through cancer” approach. Also, I believe that God gives us peace that passes all understanding when experiencing pain and suffering, unlike Calvin.
Since I wrote the post, why don’t you direct specific complaints toward me instead of those who comment? Hardcore Calvinist groups have deeply hurt many people who come to this blog, and their pain is helped by expressing comments.
I am grateful you have followed this blog so carefully through the years. I guess that it has proven somewhat meaningful to you. Thank you.
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Bob, thanks for the reminder. There was a time in my life when I could not conceive of anyone being comforted by the God you describe. Your comment reminds me that, truthfully, many are comforted by a god who controls every moment and molecule. While I do not believe that is the One scripture describes, or life reveals, I’m reminded that many require a deterministic god to see him as sovereign and powerful.
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G Smith,
I am certain everyone here has great compassion for her. But I’d say people are responding not to her but to a philosophy or mindset, the significance of which they have found devastatingly unbearable. and so cruel as to be immoral.
She said, “He ordained my cancer before I was born…To be blunt, God gave me cancer, and he gave it to me for his glory.”
Growing up christian in multiple churches & denominations, this is not standard or typical, and very shocking to read.
.
.
To dissect the significance:
Cancer is horrific. Substitute child rape. Torture and murder.
God decided that ‘my daughter would be and should be raped, tortured, and murdered.’ (not my daughter, but precious daughters of other parents)
Is this the God you worship?
It is enough to destroy people a second time irreparably.
It is simply not normal to be chipper by any degree about these things, for the glory of God. my view is that one has to be brainwashed and warped to embrace this.
It is astonishingly heartless & cruel to expect people who are suffering to adopt this kind of mindset, and to shame them for not doing so by implying that this is the standard and they don’t measure up.
this mindset proliferates because leaders teach their underlings to repress and suppress normal, healthy responses by all manner of inference and implication. they teach them to silence their common sense, gut instinct, and intuition. they teach them to be passive & compliant to accept the program.
Yes, this deserves a strong response.
Jenni deserves all our compassion. It is our fault for not conveying that. (presuming to speak for others, here)
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“Stealth and Deception” — You mean LYING? Angel of Light Mask or not?
Max, who do you know who’s described as The Father of Lies, and can Appear and an Angel of Light?
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Robert,
G Smith,
I agree with the charitable interpretation vis a vis the individual person behind the core writing. Who knows how it has been edited without her consent. A little bit of unobtrusive headline adding maybe? As Baudrillard, McLuhan and others warned, the medium owners hijack her as deflector and image.
The actual case is similar to when my grandparents were converted to their neighbour’s “Catholic” faith when she lost her husband and son in the Great War. That’s another brand name with an unstable value of meaning.
(They had already been nonconformists turned C of E. My other grandmother had been Jewish turned C of E before she was “Catholic”.)
(I didn’t know any of my grandparents.)
My mum is now thought to have last seen the brother we didn’t know she had, when she was 16 and he 12.
The only gospel we knew was that Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit want us to ask them for help.
Though I was a slow child, I just like my neighbours was sophisticated enough to know what contingent universe means AND what “image of God” means. Several of you need to do wider secular reading: try commentators on Kant, Fries, Whitehead, R L Ellis.
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I fear he has taken up residence in much of the American church.
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Yes. I would say that the Wartburg community wholeheartedly agrees with that assessment of Dee’s post and comment thread. The only folks that “the WW crowd piles on” are the NeoCal leaders who influence/indoctrinate such aberrant positions about the things of God.
G Smith,
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Headless Unicorn Guy,
Well said elastigirl, and I concur.
I can no longer acknowledge a god whose only goal is to aggrandize himself with notions of ‘glory’. What does that mean anyway?
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, isn’t anything like the hardcore reformed claim He is.
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Sorry, I pulled the wrong commenter ID.
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The Book of Job is not an instruction manual.
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Good point. There was only one Job.
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dee,
While I disagree with some of the Biblical arguments in Dee’s post, it is the content and tone in *many* of the comments (not all!) that I find off-putting. If I were editing the original article, I would have strongly recommended some changes in the title and the wording. At the same time, I think the author is trying to articulate a doctrine of God’s providence, which is widely held by Protestants of most stripes. It is a wholly Biblical doctrine. It is an effort to hold together God’s sovereignty over all that He has made and human suffering–especially when the sufferer belongs to God’s family. This is a delicate subject because it touches our emotions so directly. So I would edit the TGC article *and* I would respectfullyu challenge a few of Dee’s points, which represent her effort to get answers to the same or similar questions. All of that is fine and can be done charitably. My concern is with the free-for-all nature of the comments section, which contains a number of comments that are hardly charitable and are often nasty. I’ve been in and out with WW for years now, but more out than in for the last couple of years because–so it seems to me–many of the commenters strike me as waiting for the latest post so that they can start in on how much they hate X, Y, Z. I am a Reformed pastor (I’ve distanced myself from ‘Calvinist’ because that term has become useless and a stumbling block) and I endorse whole-heartedly many of the causes championed by WW. But I wince when I read so many angry comments that sound to me disconnected from Jesus’ own way of responding to error among his people. I don’t want WW’s good work to be spoiled by them.
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Tells you who’s REALLY All-Powerful, don’t it?
“Socratic Atheism”: If there is something more powerful than the gods which controls the actions of the gods, then the gods are not gods, whatever controls them is.
Specific Application: If God only Wills what He Hath Been Predestined to Will, then God is Not God, PREDESTINATION is.
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That. As well as all the TWW commenters’ comments.
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Could God have prevented or stopped any of the evils Dee mentions in her post?
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elastigirl,
All those things are indeed terrible. Could God have stopped them?
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It means when your God is like that, you are going to be a sucker for any Utterly Selfish Egomaniac with Power. After all, He Acts Just Like God, He Must Be GOD! (Or His Anointed Channeler!)
THAT is the type of God and Faith an egomaniac dictator would cultivate among his Objects.
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That.
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Not to be content with abstract criticism … Here is a partial list of quotations that 1. create crude stereotypes of Calvinists or 2. misrepresent what the writer actually wrote or 3. are just nasty for the sake of it (?).
I’m a Calvinist (strictly speaking), but I prefer to find my place in the Reformed tradition. I’ve read thousands of pages of John Calvin’s writings and thousands of pages of (for example) N. T. Wright’s writings. None of these comments indicates a direct knowledge of Calvin’s faith and piety. These comments certainly do not describe me! Westboro Baptist is Calvinistic? Maybe, and the Ku Klux Klan’s membership is white only!
“Believing that God is torturing you is unironically one way (a bizarre one) out of the problem of evil. If God hates you and wants you to suffer there’s none of this messing with trying to explain why God allows suffering. Westboro Baptist church are, of course, Calvinists and have perfected this approach.”
Mrs. DiPrima says, “God receives glory when I’m more satisfied in him than in my husband, my children, a healthy body, or anything death might steal.” Reading this through the lens of a (recovering) control freak, the implication is that “God gave her cancer” (which she baldly states) because she wasn’t focused enough on Him. If she’d been more focused on Him, He wouldn’t have needed to give her cancer. Therefore, the cancer is her fault. I think it was Brene Brown who said that we become so focused on finding whose fault it is because it gives us an illusion of control.
I see Calvinism from afar.
I see a people who are CERTAIN of their OWN salvation and who also firmly believe that ‘the lost’ were condemned by their ‘god’ for his own ‘glory’ even before they were born. Pre-destination . . . Pre-destining an infant to hell with NO CHANCE of salvation seems to make ‘the neo-Calvinist god’ a monster. There is so much evil in this perverse religion that it now has become the basis for a dominionist viewpoint of political government . . . where ‘the saved’ can punish ‘the lost’ in the name of their ‘god of wrath’. In the words of author Anne Lamott, ‘You can safely assume you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.’
therein lies hatred for the poor and the helpless, a hatred that renders them as ‘disposable beings’, already doomed by THE ‘god of wrath’ to a misery that permits the rest of us to be free of any efforts to help them . . . . a page right out of Le Guin’s dark story: ‘The Ones Who Walked Away From Omelas’
God gave her cancer, and Calvinism is getting her through it??? God harms and Calvinism heals???
I read the TGC post. She gives me the distinct impression that she believes that God is torturing her (one of His “elect”, no less) for His own satisfaction, and Calvinism is the only thing that can save her. I think she has that backwards. Since it was posted on TGC website, I assume the whole TGC crew has it backwards.
This poor woman’s and her husband’s codependency don’t show “so great a salvation”, but rather an excuse for becoming implicated.
Their god (calvinists) is a cruel and petulant monster.
And their religion really is sick.
Apparently, New Calvinists prefer to think of the essence of Christianity as a set of rigid doctrines about “grace” rather than a direct experience of Grace. A dead Calvin vs. a living Christ.
Some of Calvinism’s odd attraction is that it provides a sense of “black and white” order for those who need everything to add up to 100. “God’s will” is such a pat answer for those who are unable to accept that life has random, unexplainable moments that are often unhappy, unfair, and heartbreaking. If everything is “God’s will”, what need is there for faith? Because everything that occurs is “God’s will” one merely needs to accept whatever is before them – be it good or bad – because God “made it happen.” Faith plays no role in such a system of belief. — Last year a 3 year old child of an extended family member accidentally drowned in the family swimming pool. A terrible, terrible tragedy. The funeral service was one of denial. The child died “for God’s glory” and “many will come to know Jesus” because of this moment. There was singing and praising God. It seemed that crying was out of place. Normal grief did not appear to be allowed. — Calvinism creates a sense of denial that I, as a psychotherapist and former pastor, find troubling. The failure to face reality because there is some huge “purpose” behind it is not a healthy walk with God or expression of faith.
Calvinism appeals to those who want certainty because of its (supposedly) tight doctrinal consistency. As someone wrote above, Calvinism’s god is a most cruel deity. That god is not worthy of worship.
I think Sproul worships a puppet master.
I believe God has the absolute ability to control every molecule, but I believe that most of the time, He chooses not to control anything. I believe God gave us free will. I believe Adam and Eve had free will —— I don’t believe that God’s promises would been necessary if He had controlled them Adam and Eve …… and if He controlled us.
Jesus died and rose from the grave, to sit at the right hand of our God in Heaven. — OTOH, who is Calvin? And who resurrected the Calvin skeletal remains, to place his sorry-a** dust and ashes on a pedestal as their idol to rule their churches beyond the grave, where he actually still resides? So, the dead now worship the dead? Pathetic. The dead ARE worshipping the dead. Have at it, I guess. It’s a choice. Dead end, going nowhere fast, choice.
God planned your attempt to establish yourself as a better Christian than the rest of us. Bravo.
Friend: God planned your attempt to establish yourself as a better Christian than the rest of us. Bravo. — All is as Allah wills it.
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“Why should I stop people from doing something when they are perfectly capable of stopping themselves?
— God”
— David Hopkins, Jack (DARK online webcomic), “Short VI: The Chalkboard”
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Robert,
just make your point directly.
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it’s the usual Calvinist debate point to throw your comment off … they ask deep questions … their faith is primarily an intellectual pursuit about the things of God without ever having experienced God
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I’m going to disagree.
Nobody has anything but compassion for Jenni. That’s clear to me in the post and in the comments.
This is commentary on a worldview.
This worldview twists reality. People get to heaven because they were elected, nothing is earned.
Predestination – that god is glorified in events like Holodomor or the killing fields or the Rwandan genocide or even more mundane events like a automobile accident or aneurysm is as much clockwork universe as any atheist could conceive.
It tells me clearly that nothing matters.
I can’t imagine anything more hopeless or nihilistic.
This worldview had no justice in it. Abusers, criminals and monsters have no accountability. Worse, they could be one of the “elect”.
Yes, you could spend eternity with such “great” men as Adolf Hitler and Pol Pot. They were into torture so would have a hoot of a time watching the darned burn!
Jesus isn’t speaking to me, so hopefully I’m not elected into this version of paradise.
Is this what Christianity is heading to?
The coffin containing my faith has so many nails in it that you can’t see the wood anymore.
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We have a tornado warning today. Any ideas how to stop one? Apparently God’s expecting me to do something about this.
I’m planning to drive in opposite circles really fast. Good thing my 20 year old Camry has new tires!
Or I know…. I’ll pray…
Or do nothing since it’s all predestined.
Praise be…
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That is a mischaracterization of my point.
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I profoundly disagree. At a funeral for a young mother who left behind a devastated husband and small children, the whole congregation was told to rejoice and celebrate God’s Perfect Plan in taking her to heaven at age what… 25? No, the demand of rejoicing and betrayal were depraved, horrible for the family, a betrayal.
The rush toward “good purposes” leaves out the very same human emotions that God gave us. When a beloved and needed person dies, we suffer. The shortest sentence in the King James version is “Jesus wept.” He wept for his friend who died. Yes, I know what happened next. But remember, “Jesus wept.”
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Sorry, should say “the demand of rejoicing and celebration was depraved.”
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If God didn’t stop it but he could, then you still have the same problem you’re getting upset with the Calvinists about. The only way out is to say God could not have stopped those horrible things.
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Well, there’s a haphazard poor way to make an ill-timed comment about God’s plan. You don’t do it the second a tragedy happens.
But if a tragedy happens and God could have stopped it but didn’t, don’t we assume that He had a good reason for not doing so even if we do not know the full reason on this side of glory?
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Robert,
not stopping horrific events is much different than dreaming them up, wanting them to happen & thus putting plans together to orchestrate them with maximum pain and torture.
the problem of evil sucks. but what you propose is a different kettle of fish.
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Actually, no it’s not.
If God could stop it and yet did not stop it, then in *some* sense he wanted it to happen more than he didn’t want it to happen. And you’re left with the same problem.
As far as the other comments, who said God “dreamed them up” ? No classic Calvinist confession of faith says that.
Some of the horrible events that happen in this world are in themselves maximum pain and torture on this side of heaven. So if God doesn’t stop them, He is in *some* sense orchestrating them, even if incorporating them into a plan. Of course, I guess you could say God doesn’t have a plan. Which would make it worse than Calvinism.
Any historic Christian view of the problem of evil must say that for *some* reason, God wanted a world, where horrible tragedies happen more than He wanted a world where no child ever would die of cancer. Only way out is to deny God’s omnipotence. Even denying omniscience really won’t do because even if God couldn’t see the future, He could still intervene once the evil starts so as to make it not as bad as it could be.
But if you deny God’s omnipotence, then he can’t help us.
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That is, in my considerable experience, total nonsense.
When I was gravely ill, I did not want omnipotence. I wanted comfort and love. I wanted to reconcile myself to whatever happened. God offers these things always through the words of Scripture and through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Yes, of course I wondered “why?” and “why me?” But I spent precisely zero minutes wondering why an omnipotent God would proactively strike me with a life-threatening illness. Still less did I wonder why he would let Satan do this to me. Illness is a thing in the world, not an anvil that God and Satan scheme to drop on our heads to test our reactions.
My three grave illnesses stole a great deal of time from my life, traumatized my family, and left me with invisible but chronic medical problems. I see only one benefit: I can talk to frightened new patients and tell them that I am still here. That can take the edge off their initial fear—and yet it does not guarantee their recovery or survival.
I was robbed. God held my hand. That was enough.
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Robert,
“who said God “dreamed them up” ? No classic Calvinist confession of faith says that.”
++++++++++++++++
the main point people are responding here is the statement, “He ordained my cancer before I was born…To be blunt, God gave me cancer, and he gave it to me for his glory.”
if God ordained horrific circumstances… if God gave someone cancer or caused someone to be r—- and t——- and m——- (can’t say all the words anymore), then in *some* sense he dreamed them up & orchestrated the circumstances to happen just as they did.
of course no classic Calvinist confession of faith says that. but it is the logical significance of the words.
just like all the other times i’ve observed christians defending themselves or their influencer hero by saying “i never said that!” “he never said that!”.
of course not. saavy marketing would never present something in terms that would discredit & disqualify it, and repel & repulse the buyer.
‘That’ (whatever self-disqualifying thing) was couched in some christianese jargon like a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down, the implied significance of which is not lost on a scrutinizing audience.
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Your truthful argument falls on deaf ears to a determinist. In their world, there is only a set of rigid unrevisable doctrines about God, rather than an encounter with a Living Christ who indwells believers by the Spirit and speaks through Scripture to all who have ears to hear.
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Well spotted, I lost sight of that.
As I keep saying, God shows more sovereignty by making us IN HIS IMAGE IN A CONTINGENT UNIVERSE.
Either that was inserted after Jenni handed over her piece or she is obediently copying received sloganry.
So called “confessions” (not a concept Jesus taught) are all poisonously imbalanced.
Even “better” calvinists are denying my God’s (perhaps not their god’s) sovereignty. They are asserting their own sovereignty.
As I keep saying, the ONLY glory of God is the fruit of the gifts of ordinary believers, unvetoed.
Sproul (Senior, the possessive and “righteous” one) condemns the honest Kant which shows me Sproul instantly.
Falwell (Senior: possessive and “righteous”) the teacher of materialism shows me Falwell instantly.
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G Smith,
I note you don’t support the wrong emphases the possessive TGC imposes on everything. Calvinism doesn’t mean Calvin, (who’s he?), it means TGC.
While not all the quotes fit your 1, 2, 3, I see you as on our side because of your recommended amendments to the article and its surrounds (our point).
An article and its surrounds are about who they are to as well as who they are from. Many readers don’t know what contingency and sovereignty are, and think they are incompatible, and are relieved when someone appears to come down on the “pious” side.
If a replacement organisation to TGC wanted to do good, it would actually explain how contingency and sovereignty are compatible and what glory actually is. We were taught to settle for less.
I’ve always mixed with “reformed”, but like Bereans I research truth and not Calvin. Parts of Wright I read didn’t make sense because they weren’t “telling it like it is”, not a recommendation for the rest. The Bible needs much personal teaching.
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“Yes, God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so.”
— William of Conches, 11th Century (prob after hitting his breaking point in a theological debate)
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You are new to TWW and were not here in the early years. When I started this blog, I used to limit negative comments. Over time, I realized that the church has deeply hurt many people. That hurt is seen in the words. It is also seen in my blog, which was started due to a sexual abuse crime in my church.
I decided not to limit the comments because it might make someone like you, a pastor, uncomfortable. I decided it might be a learning experience for you and other leaders. Finally, you hear what people never tell you face to face. I hope you will take a minute and look differently at those comments.
I see many things in those comments, and not one appears awful to me. I see beyond them into the lives of those making them. I even see them in your comments. I see beyond the concern for “nasty” comments into fear for such raw truthtelling. I allow all comments, even the negative ones.
PS It was the original author who chose the title that Calvinism is what helps her during her illness. I used her words so I wouldn’t be accused of putting words in her mouth. I sure hope you get that I get what it is like to face a terminal diagnosis. We were told we had a less than 10% chance of survival.
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Comments here do not spoil Dee’s work or Todd’s. Each comment reflects the person making the comment. Together on TWW we get somewhere, even if we sometimes annoy each other. I’d rather read honest, civil challenges than the cookie-cutter agreement found (enforced) on many Christian blogs and accounts.
Grave illness and death create strong emotions and thoughts. People need and deserve to air their struggles, to make sense of new hardship, even to cry out in blame and anger. Jesus met all of these reactions as he approached Lazarus’s home. Even knowing that he would raise Lazarus, Jesus absorbed the anguish, and felt it himself.
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If what you say is true then God’s not doing a good job. Capital “f” for this deity.
That’s why I no longer believe.
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In my young day every agnostic child knew the way round the paradoxes AND felt no obligation (even from families hurt by churches) – because the agnostic teachers had no problem with it. It’s only since the power grabber Stott substituted his non-Christ that newer generations haven’t had the chances we had. Since I looked into what those who study Nature and time found – such as A N Whitehead – I see we kids of then had been right all along.
Jack, I always understood your good reasons to be a sort of agnostic, and this is also why I am a Trinitarian Henotheistic Cafeteria Agnostic – agnostic as to distortions and poisonous baggage – for some “unfortunate” reason that has me not going with almost all “christianity” in England these days.
Asking our God for help for everyone in a contingent world is our calling UNLIKE what intrusive and possessive religious superiors preached (who want us to be their inert playthings and not in our God’s image). The Psalms and “morning and night prayers” and Dan 9: 3-21, are meant to serve the world through believers thus.
The only glory will be if we see the relation gifts will bear to providence, once upper middle class England gets to resemble Ukraine / Belarus / Syria / Honduras (places that aren’t on far continents).
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Better than the word “once”: “before”, and “instead of”.
Jesus didn’t and doesn’t lose hope. (I mustn’t turn myself into the new Seneca G.)
Asbury has real revival and I heard that is spreading to Londonderry.
This week I’m saying to my nice elders: stop gatekeeping prayer intentions.
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TWW is on a mission to inform and warn. Many commenters have experienced abuse, including spiritual abuse of aberrant belief and practice. Their comments sometimes have an edge of raw truth-telling as they attempt to prevent others from wandering into the valley they traveled through. The teachings and traditions of mere men have done a lot of damage to folks. TWW commenters share their experiences here for those who have ears to hear.
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There’s a difference between saying God is obligated to help us exactly in the way we think he should every time we ask and saying that God can’t help us at all.
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Well, it’s contra classic Calvinism to say that God gave her cancer directly, which is really why TGC isn’t the best source for classic Calvinism.
But again, even if one says God gave cancer for some good purpose that we cannot yet fully understand, that’s not substantially different ultimately than saying God saw cancer was coming and He allowed it for some good purpose that we may not yet fully understand.
I guess you could deny that God has some good purpose in allowing evil to happen, but I’m not sure how that’s a comfort.
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I’m grateful that you seem to have come through or are coming through a hard providence gracefully. I don’t mean to make light of anything; the only context I have is your words. These are very difficult things we’re talking about.
Yes God offers comfort and love always. But did you really never ask God to heal you? Do you believe cancer is an eternal thing that you will have forever that God can’t and won’t stop even in the new creation?
What I’m saying is that actually omnipotence is something you need and look for, unless you believe this life is all there is or that God simply isn’t going to cure all cancer in the new creation. I’ve never met a professing Christian who believes either of those things.
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Amen! Max, Amen!
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Healing is different from a medical cure. I certainly did receive healing: I was prepared to face any outcome. Do not dismiss the importance of that.
I also received effective medical treatment. Doctors generally hesitate to use the word “cure” for certain conditions. The treatment was available to me through health insurance, facilities in my region, a high degree of clinical skill, evolving treatment protocols, helpful neighbors, a reliable car, an ambulance, the interstate highway system, and other miracles of faithful collaboration.
God has given me one mortal life. Life expectancy in America in the 1700s was about 35 years. Does the more-than-doubling of life expectancy show God’s omnipotence? If so, perhaps that is because God inspired humans of all backgrounds and beliefs to work together worldwide.
Regarding God eliminating cancer in the new creation, I am probably too dumb to understand what that means. Have faith in one thing: I do not ponder or yearn for proof of God’s omnipotence. Please do not tell me what I need.
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i.e. Schrodinger’s Cat on a cosmic scale?
i.e. Reciting The Party Line?
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There is only a Party Line of Perfect Ideology, and Ideology must always prevail over Reality.
Does God live in the Real World or not?
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Amen Friend!
Amen!
So many of them are like Job’s ‘counselors’.
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Not “Funeral”.
The Proper Christianese Code Words are “HOMEGOING CELEBRATION”.
“HAPPY! CLAPPY! JOY! JOY! HAPPY! CLAPPY! JOY! JOY!”
When I first heard that term, I KNEW sh*t like you described was going to go down.
It was only a matter of time and entropy.
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Jack,
You’re NOT helping my case, Jack.
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We live in a fallen world. Things are broken. Trials and suffering are realities. God loves us and helps us through it all as we journey to our eternal home where there will be “no more tears, no more death, no more sorrow, no more pain … those things will pass away” (Revelation 21:4).
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Max,
Amen.
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dee,
I respect the work that you are doing, but you may be a bit shortsighted in what you hope to accomplish if that includes providing a learning experience for people like me and other leaders. “Raw truth telling” seems to cover a multitude of sins! I’m not uncomfortable with the comments, I’m surprised by their malice, their mean-spirited attacks, the way they create caricatures of believers in other traditions, then mock them, insult them, and dismiss them. You may not be able to educate as many leaders as you hope to educate if, when they come on your blog, they see so much uncharitable vitriol directed against their traditions being passed off under the supposed virtue of raw truth telling. I have been careful, for example, to refer to *some* of the comments that I read here. I don’t attack the commenters directly in an ad hominem way, nor do I refer to ALL the comments that I read here as troubling because many are not at all. Yet *some* of the comments that I have read on WW over the years (I’m not new to reading this blog) make no distinctions at all. People who disagree with ‘Calvinism’ are well within their rights to say so and to say why they disagree. It’s the nastiness that I see as counter-productive to the blog’s mission. And that’s all I’ll say. I believe that I am writing as a friend of WW.
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Just a thought….and omitting details partially because it’ll keep my comment shorter, and partially because so many of you are well-versed in the Bible. And I’m intentionally condensing and simplifying parts of the Bible.
No offence to anyone intended, and my apologies if my words don’t express my thought clearly….
A Christophany is when Jesus appears in some way in the Old Testament, although He has not yet been born.
In the Book of Job, God allows Satan to do many bad things to Job.
Satan is the god (lower case “g” intentional) of this world.
Many people ask questions like “why do bad things happen to good people?”, or question why God allows things like wars, and many other bad things.
Could it be that the example of Satan and Job is to prepare people for what life will be like in the New Testament when Satan is the god (lower case “g” intentional) of this world?
Perhaps people forget or don’t know that Satan is the god (lower case “g” intentional) of this world? And I’m NOT writing that sentence to provide an excuse for people who use the “Satan persecution card” — the one(s) that so many Wartburgers are familiar with, read about, hear, etc.
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No, god isn’t obligated to help me but if I’m reduced to nothing more than an ant he can burn with his magnifying glass when he feels a need for glory, then the Christian definition of good has really gone off the rails.
And this explains why abuse is so rampant in the church, there’s not even any moral equivalency, it’s all planned. And God’s gospel gangsters get a free ticket to heaven.
The hypocrisy is astounding. Why does anyone follow this? The only thing keeping Christians good is the fear of having your chestnuts roasting on open fire while your co-relgionists laugh in comfort at the glory of it all.
This is so repugnant that I no longer have words.
Sure explains evangelical hatred of pretty much anything not evangelical.
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Sorry about that, but the tornado warning lifted without a single tornado touching down
Happened while we slept…. doing nothing works!
I finally understand the meaning of it all….
Praise be!
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I’m a universalist cultural Christian. Raised in Christian culture – although no evangelical, but I renounce all the hatred parts, and I don’t think the events happened exactly as written.
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Geoff Smith,
I appreciate your comment. what about telescoping out a little and seeing a more holistic picture.
as i see it, comments are addressing not individuals but the practice of religion that is manipulative, dishonest, & corrupt on the one hand,
using God and scripture for self-serving ends,
and passive, compliant, and enabling of the former on the other hand. also for self-serving ends.
(being passive in this context is easy, convenient, and seems to be motivated by an overriding concern to keep oneself as sinless as possible — caring more about oneself than what is right and the human beings harmed by wrong)
it’s all just beyond egregious.
especially because christian practitioners as described hide behind God and Jesus in their self-centered actions/inactions that have cruel consequences for others… not unlike a human shield.
comments are not aimed at individuals so much as addressing what have become intolerable facets of our religion.
Our religion, which has been a huge part of our lives full of meaning and community
which influencers have hijacked & destroyed so much so that many of us have had to leave it (in various ways).
.
.
a question for you: what warrants anger? something(s)? nothing?
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1. I don’t know where you are getting the first point from. It’s certainly nothing taught in the Calvinist confessions.
2. “God’s gangsters get to heaven”? Don’t know what that means or what you are alleging.
3. Abuse, sadly, is rampant everywhere. Why is it rampant outside the church in secular spaces like the public schools?
4. “Why does anyone follow this? The only thing keeping Christians good is the fear of having your chestnuts roasting on open fire while your co-relgionists laugh in comfort at the glory of it all.”
I’ve yet to meet another Calvinist, let alone any kind of Christian, that says the ONLY thing keeping Christians good is hell. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist, but maybe you can produce some Christian confession of faith that teaches this?
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Friend: Healing is different from a medical cure. I certainly did receive healing: I was prepared to face any outcome. Do not dismiss the importance of that.
Not trying to dismiss that. But did you never pray for a complete physical remission? BTW, I am a cancer survivor. It was a very treatable cancer that has a very high cure rate, but nevertheless I do know something about which you speak.
I also received effective medical treatment. Doctors generally hesitate to use the word “cure” for certain conditions. The treatment was available to me through health insurance, facilities in my region, a high degree of clinical skill, evolving treatment protocols, helpful neighbors, a reliable car, an ambulance, the interstate highway system, and other miracles of faithful collaboration.
God has given me one mortal life. Life expectancy in America in the 1700s was about 35 years. Does the more-than-doubling of life expectancy show God’s omnipotence? If so, perhaps that is because God inspired humans of all backgrounds and beliefs to work together worldwide.
The Calvinist doctrine of God’s providence would say that God works through all these things to provide effective treatment for at least some people who have cancer or another disease. God’s omnipotence doesn’t force a choice between God does everything and humans do nothing and humans do everything and God does nothing.
Regarding God eliminating cancer in the new creation, I am probably too dumb to understand what that means. Have faith in one thing: I do not ponder or yearn for proof of God’s omnipotence. Please do not tell me what I need.
You’re not too dumb! Let me explain myself better. I assume that as a professing Christian, you belief in the resurrection of the dead and the final, ultimate state of creation to be a restored heaven and earth in which there is no sickness whatsoever (or any tragedy). This is the historic biblical and Christian teaching. It’s not uniquely Lutheran, Calvinist, Roman Catholic, etc.
Assuming you believe that (cause if you don’t, there are bigger problems), then you believe God will one day produce a creation in which there is no cancer because there is no sickness. And part of the Christian hope historically is looking forward to that day of resurrection and the new heaven and earth. The alternative would be that you will have cancer forever. I’m almost certain you don’t believe that and are, in fact, looking forward to a day in which you won’t have to worry about tests for cancer markers, tumor growth, chemotherapy, radiation, etc. because you know there’s a day coming in God will wipe out all cancer forever.
Now, if God is not omnipotent, then all of that is mere wishful thinking. Moreover, if God is not omnipotent, then whatever healing you have received thus far is pure happenstance. I suspect you hold to neither point, which is why I said you actually do need God’s omnipotence.
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I have to say as one who also appreciates what Dee does in calling abuse to attention that this comment is very spot on. I’m a Calvinist, and I can tell you all that a huge majority of people who call themselves Calvinist and stumble upon this blog are going to take one look at the comments and conclude that the reporting cannot be taken as seriously as it could be because of some of the vitriol among the commenters here. The result is that you largely end up preaching to the choir.
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1. You’re saying that bad is good because it glorifies god.
2. See post on Andy Savage or pick one of the many Catholic priests over the years or mark Driscoll or Jim Bakker or swaggart or Falwell or any of the other comeback kids.
3. When I did go to an evangelical church, much was made of the standard being higher but since bad is good and it’s all preordained then no standard is needed.
4. If you don’t follow Jesus you go to heck… it’s punishment vs rewards. It’s right in the bible. Multiple entries. So that doesn’t figure into the Christian worldview? That super sucks if you’re not elected. Wasting all that time and money but god still sends you to heck. All for his glory so it must be good.
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I did pray to have my health restored, and I also prayed for strength and wisdom to face every day, every decision, and the possibility of my death.
You are still trying to persuade me that I need to share your belief about God’s omnipotence. My faith is strong and whole despite a lifetime of hardships I will not detail here, except to mention abuse in church and parachurch settings.
I assume you are not telling me that I must share your view or be damned. I’m a lifelong Christian. Please accept that.
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There are, however, occasional comments aimed at individuals such as NeoCal icons like Piper, Mohler, Dever et al. who have promoted intolerable facets of our religion. Is this not OK on Christian watchblogs which inform and warn about such aberrations of faith? There are thousands, perhaps millions, of New Calvinists who would not agree that they are off-track. But, by and large, Christendom has opted out of this radical fringe of reformed theology with their numbers representing a miniscule percentage of all Protestants worldwide. In this particular blog piece, the majority of comments have been directed at the ideology which prompted Mrs. DiPrima to proclaim that Calvinism is getting her through a health crisis, rather than Mrs. DiPrima herself.
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Max,
“There are, however, occasional comments aimed at individuals such as NeoCal icons like Piper, Mohler, Dever et al. who have promoted intolerable facets of our religion. Is this not OK on Christian watchblogs which inform and warn about such aberrations of faith?”
++++++++++++++
why, yes. promote something dumb and cruel for others (it’s always hunky dory for the promoter) in public, expect to pay in public.
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Robert,
I know that is what you think and you are entitled to your opinion. I have seen otherthing at work in 14 years. That”s why I like having my own blog. In some churches, they would attempt to silence me and my thoughts. Thankfully, Luther taught about freedom of conscience. BTW, have you ever read some of Luther’s comments? He didn’t influence people with his niceness, for sure. Somehow, he reached moe than his choir. Some things will be happening that might cause you to rethink your pat comment. But I look forward to hearing from you no matter.
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Anyone who looks out at the stars knows that God is omnipotent. That is not the point. The question is whether God can allow things to occur that, in the big picture, will not change His overall will. However, arguing with a Calvinist or Reformed or whatever name feels best is a task left up to optimists. I know. I tried. And it isn’t worth the time. Instead, I fight abuse, sexual, physical, and spiritual, and continue to read.
Now I am turning my eye to the Calvinist PCA crowd, which seems to think that someone must believe in God to bear witness to the abuse. Too bad the men who are judging aren’t tellingthe truth even though they believe in God. Fascinating crowd.
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Geoff Smith,
I am so sorry that it causes you such distress to read the pain in the comments on this blog. Did you know that nastiness is usually an expression of pain, much of which has been caused by abuse by the church? Goodness knows that there are few blogs in which Christian and former Christian people who church and Christians have hurt can express their true feelings. I know that you have rules for righteous living. I’m not so sure I buy some of those rules. After all, I grew up in Salem, MA, and am well aware of the issues surrounding the very rules-oriented Puritans.
There are all kinds of blogs in which people speak nicely and rarely say anything to upset those with a deep sense of propriety and a love for all things Reformed or Calvin or Spurgeon or whatever. That’s not how things are around here. It is free for all, and I am comfortable with what I do. I read love in many of the comments. I hope you can find peace and not be continually confronted by people who don’t say things as nicely as you do.
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There’s not one gram of blasphemy in your comment Sarah.
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By their standard of “interpretation” which is the only “true” one yeah.
I’ve met some, and “confessions of faith” are so variable in content and status AND difficult to interpret that what we are told takes precedence and IS the “confession”.
You don’t need Robert’s “view of God’s omnipotence”, you need mine instead, which is the same as you have got already. Taking his words literally traps you in his template and doesn’t address the issue. How many times have I explained how language carries meeanings?
But you’re not “called to do” anything like that. Gifts (unvetoed) to humanity (which does include some who aren’t like TGC) are diverse. That is the beauty of true agnosticism surely!
I think you need to critique the TGC because the TGC is who people I know follow. The TGC is constructed to not be answerable and to appear invisible.
The TGC IS the “other tradition”. High handed, possessive and improvident.
Also “new creation” is supposed to tell us something about God’s values, not specific concretes (agnostic children knew this 55 years ago).
I wonder more and more what is “behind” the empty-headed cold hearted sloganeering I encounter around me. Stott, a Holy Ghost denier and politician, copied the snobbish possessiveness and improvidence of bishops Ryle and Winnington-Ingram, and that is how he has sunk all the denominations. Lloyd-Jones, from a poor background, loved all the denominations and wanted to strengthen everybody.
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I don’t know how you understand Schrodinger (or Godel or Heisenberg). Their famous sayings were arrived at by fresh means AND they accord with what honest people accepted for thousands of years. A N Whitehead (who has got nothing to do with “process theology”) pondered greatly on limits TO possibility.
I infer from my secular reading that the “first” three things to appear were person, light and time. I think Stott for example has a dishonest view of time. (Some say there is conservation between light and gravity.)
In your comments you cite many acquaintances who experienced a depersonalising process from bad religions. I did myself also.
Schrodinger, Godel and Heisenberg spoke of snapshots of little pieces of knowledge and combinations of them. If by “cosmic” you mean indeterminately large numbers of interlocking but distinct such pieces about separate individuals each of intended supreme worth, and things in nature with their rightful worth, then sort-of yes.
Everything personal is indeterminate in quantification of quality, because it is about individuals. The Holy Trinity has space for the other other and this needs more than lip service.
Bad religions hijacked what rightly belongs to secular good sense, and damned agnostics. Top marks from me HUG, for your breaking out of the uncomprehending cycling of most of the others.
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R L Ellis (1817-59), and William Whewell (inventor of the word “scientist”) sought to relaunch Francis Bacon balancing both induction and deduction because they found Bentham was shoddily reacting to his deficits. Bacon broke off his “Instauration” when he found that truth conflicted with his dictatorial politics. Bacon was like Macbeth on a bad day and Hamlet on a good day. The shadowy elements hiding behind Jenni need to try which cap fits them, and publicly rectify their stances. It’s our duty to pray with trembling, that our spiritual betters don’t blaspheme Holy Spirit by utilitarianism.
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Bentham was all the “pragmatic” and Gradgrinding days that Bacon was having in the 19 th century, but Oliver Twist wanted more. TGC is all the bad days Calvin is having now, and God’s children want something better than their panopticon-like interfering.
While Bacon in person faded, some commenters preach Calvin And Him Crucified; if he be not resurrected and ascended to distribute gifts differing that makes them the most wretched of creatures.
Fear is grief. No-one should disrespect it.
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And it’s the same old tired argument. I know of no other expression of faith in which adherents are indoctrinated with canned Q&A. Do they go through some sort of Sunday School training for that?! Arguing with one of them is like arguing with all of them. I learned a long time ago that debating jots and tittles is not preaching the Gospel … no use wasting a lot of breath doing it. But sometimes you just have to shout to try to get their attention when they are obviously on the wrong track … New Calvinism being the most recent example of reformed belief & practice gone awry. Sometimes they listen … their Eternal Subordination of the Son doctrine hasn’t gained much traction … Christendom spit up on that one!
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No, I’m not saying you have to share my Calvinist view or be damned. I’m saying that you must believe in the resurrection of the body and the new heaven and new earth to be a Christian. And that if you do believe in that, you actually share my understanding of God’s omnipotence even if you don’t recognize it.
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If you look at the stars and know that God is omnipotent and believe that God allows things that are not going to disrupt His “overall will,” then you also know that God is ultimately behind cancer in *some* way because He very well could have stopped it but did not. In *some* sense he preferred a world with cancer in it than one that does not have it. And so, you’re still left with the same questions as the Calvinist. God wanted a world in which I would have cancer and in which I would have a child with severe developmental delays, autism, and other problems more than he didn’t want me to endure those things. God wanted a world in which your daughter had cancer more than he didn’t want her to have cancer.
Why? Well there’s only so much we can say, but the non-Calvinist position doesn’t make the question go away or answer it any better than the Calvinist one does.
Turning to the PCA crowd, you’re actually not representing what was decided at the general assembly, at least not entirely. The stuff about background checks was not “rejected.” It was sent back to the presbytery for more work on the proposal. I don’t agree with all of the reasons the overtures committee suggested that the proposal be rejected, but some of them are worth considering. If you’re going to say “must do a background check,” which I’m in favor of by the way, you better specify what that means exactly or it’s going to be useless.
As far as the atheist testimony, I’m still torn on it. I would suggest that you watch the assembly debate about it before you opine on it. Have you done that? Do you realize that the man who gave the report suggesting that the PCA reject the overture publicly testified, to near tears, to the fact that his own daughter was assaulted and yet still thought it was unwise to allow atheists to testify **in church courts.** Make of that what you will, but don’t make of it the big old mean PCA doesn’t care about abuse survivors.
As far as the other stuff in the article, I don’t know enough about the specific cases to comment intelligibly except to say, IF the accusations are true, then there has been a failure. IF the accusations are true, the victims should also be pursuing civil criminal action. I don’t know if they are doing that. And I haven’t heard the testimony or seen the evidence.
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It is wording like this that gets Calvinistas in trouble. It is self-congratulatory, a nod at your superior understanding of God’s omnipotence. Darn, this frustrates me. Did they teach you how to say things in love and humility in Calvin School? This comment shows me why you do not understand why I look at the comments differently.
I am a conservative Lutheran. I get omnipotence. I have loved the God who created this fantastic universe since I became a Christian. That is why you see so many pictures of the universe in my posts. You appear to be saying that it is your way or we are just simpletons.
I am not going to debate you. I know exactly how that conversation will go since I’ve had it many times. If you haven’t read this blog, let me tell you that I have read all the usual Calvinists/Reformed crowd and a great deal of Calvin’s Institutes. I have not experienced the “burning in the bosom” conversion to Calvinism, but I have experienced that in my turning to our Lord. You can do better.
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Downright ridiculous. The man is a true believer and it is very sad indeed.
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vs. conversion to Christ … a world of difference
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1. That does not follow because the teaching is not that badness in itself glorifies God. What glorifies God is how He works through even bad things to achieve good purposes. Surgery in and of itself isn’t good because it causes pain and suffering. But it can be used to accomplish greater goods such as the removal of cancer.
2. Well I see no evidence that any of those men have actually repented of their sins, so I have no good reason to believe any of them is a Christian. The people following them may think otherwise, but I would say they are either ignorant, deluded, or fools.
3. None of that follows.
4. It figures into the Christian worldview, but it’s not the only reason why people should do good. We should do good because doing good is actually how we fulfill our nature or created end. We should do good because other people are made in God’s image and thus have an inherent dignity. On the other hand, if there are no rewards or cursing in an afterlife, then the most you can say about any evil thing is “I don’t like that” and the fact that you are against abuse is mere personal preference.
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Finally, one thing that I can agree with you. It doesn’t make it go away. However, I believe my position better represents the love of a God who can go way beyond a simple binary “this or that” response.
However, I am writing a critical post about a woman a well-respected pastor abused, and I need to work on it for a few more hours. Understand this. I know your arguments. I know what you will say if I say one thing or another. This is nothing I can say that will change your mind. It is primarily useless, but I try a bit now and then.
I have to laugh. Whenever I mention Calvinism in a title, men (mostly men) prove to that little blogger who is causing so much uproar why she is wrong about not being a Calvinist. Look at the number of comments on this post. It’s the same old, same old.
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If you get omnipotence, then you know that God very well could have chosen to stop your daughter from getting cancer and yet did not do so for some good purpose even if you may not know what that good purpose is. That isn’t a uniquely Calvinist view. It’s the LUTHERAN view for crying out loud. God can doing anything that is logically possible and consistent with His holiness. That’s just basic Christianity—Roman Catholicism, Arminianism, Calvinism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, Lutheranism.
I don’t care about converting you to Calvinism. I want you to have better critiques of Calvinism. We Calvinists need it.
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Sure. Luther also taught that the human will was like a horse that either Satan or God was riding and in some ways was more fiercely determinist than any Calvinist, bordering on fatalism.
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dee,
I do appreciate that you let me comment here. And honestly, I’m not looking to change your mind. I know it’s very unlikely. I just think that if you’re going to critique Calvinism, you can do a much better job. You assume a whole lot in the post about what Calvinists think and do based on what this one woman wrote.
I do like the questions at the end of your post, and they’re worth thinking about, but they seem to assume some things about Calvinism that just isn’t reflected in our confession. Not looking for you to respond, but I’ll answer them as best I can:
• I do not believe that God gave my child a large brain tumor. I do not think he gives little children horrendous illnesses “for His glory.”
I don’t believe God reached his hand down and gave your child that tumor either. Scripture does say that God can and does send disease at time (look at the plagues), but making the one to one connection between disease and sin today is essentially impossible. In light of the Bible’s teaching that God does everything for His glory and because God’s glory is good for His children, I would say God allows some children to have illnesses, though I also cannot fully explain on this side of glory why and how the illness will ultimate manifest His glory. It will never do so in itself but only part of a wider plan. Even if you don’t accept that, you at least believe God had some kind of good purpose in mind. Non-Calvinists usually say God’s good purpose was to have a world in which love can be “freely chosen” and that necessitates a world in which sin and evil and disease can happen. Whether that’s your position or not, I don’t know, but it’s a greater good defense for the problem of evil, which Calvinism has. The only difference is in what one might say is God’s good purpose.
• Never ask a mother why her child “had a brain tumor.” Gosh, don’t blame her for something she had no control over. Whatever you do, don’t try to blame it on “uranium deposits” or something else that may or may not have been in the area where she was working, serving an underserved population.
Indeed.
• If a person believes that God deliberately causes a painful illness in a child or adult “for His glory, get them to explain what that looks like.
Can’t fully answer this. In part, though, his glory will be seen in his ultimate destruction of said illness.
• God helped me find His peace during my daughter’s illness, even though I am not a Calvinist. Does God love and intervene lovingly in the lives of those who are not Calvinists?
Of course he does. Is there a Calvinist who says He doesn’t?
• Does God deliberately send a pedophile to molest a child?
No, but He does allow it.
If so, explain how this exhibits “His glory?”.
Can’t fully answer it on this side of glory and Calvinists who claim that they can haven’t thought hard enough about it. We could say that ultimately, God will provide justice and the justice manifests his glory, but not the act in itself. But even that’s only a partial answer.
The most evil thing that happened in human history was the crucifixion of Jesus. It’s far more evil than any other horror in history. Yet, we know God ordained it specifically (see Acts 2, 4, etc.) If God can get glory and work good as a result of that, He can do the same with any other tragedy.
Does God allow an abusive husband to batter his wife “for His glory?”
See above previous question about the abused child.
• Does God help a person to use their abuse to help others?
Yes. Don’t you think he does? Some of your stories have featured testimonies from victims and these testimonies have led to people having to leave their present church—e.g., Andy Savage. In this case, as sad and evil as the victim’s abuse was, God used it to get Savage out of that church he was in. That’s a good thing.
• How is this different than God allowing a man to abuse a child for His glory?
How can God ordain or allow evil without being guilty of evil? No one can answer that question fully. This is where we just have to believe God when He says He is not guilty of evil. God is capable of some things we are not. He’s the Creator, we’re the creature. There is no fully satisfying answer to this question today on this side of heaven. But it’s also why the non-Calvinist Christian theist has the same question as the Calvinist does. If I don’t stop an evil I know I can stop, I’m guilty of that evil even if I didn’t do evil directly but simply, by my non-intervention, allowed it to happen. Why is God not likewise guilty in a non-Calvinist system?
Rejecting Calvinism doesn’t get God “off the hook,” as it were.
• Could a church that teaches children or adults that God could deliberately send them a serious illness that will cause them to die “for His glory” be accused of teaching an abusive theology? Would you send your child to such a church?
This is too broad. It depends on how you teach it. Paul says that God sometimes sends illness and death on people who do not discern the Lord’s body in the Eucharist, and you are LCMS, which doesn’t allow just anyone to take in part because they are protecting non LCMS people from this. Does the LCMS teach an abusive theology?
The Bible in many places says that God sends disease. If you’re telling people that God sends disease because you want to get them in line or to facilitate abuse or if you’re saying that you know certainly why a person has a disease has a disease—that’s abusive theology.
• What does “for His glory” mean?
Manifestation of His love, power, wisdom, etc.
• How is that manifested in the lives of children in hospitals undergoing painful procedures or in children who are starving and living in garbage dumps in some countries?
This is an answer that we’re largely going to have to wait for heaven for. I’d say, however, that the tragedies mentioned aren’t in themselves a manifestation of God’s glory. His glory will be manifested in how those things contribute to His larger plan.
Could it be that His glory is made manifest by a God who does not deliberately send pain and suffering into the lives of His creation?
Sure. But what’s the difference between “deliberately sending” and “deliberately allowing”? Does God do anything not deliberately? I don’t think so, because that would mean he isn’t all-wise.
• Could it be that the pain and suffering that we and our children experience in this world are due to the fallen nature of the world in which we live?
Absolutely, but God doesn’t allow all of us to experience the same level of pain and suffering. Why? (I don’t think it’s a question we can fully answer)
• Do we each take ownership of our own part in that fallen world?
Not often enough. Thankfully, God is gracious.
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Max,
I know of a number of Christian traditions that use the Q&A format to teach, aka a catechism. The Lutherans, the Anglicans, and the Roman Catholics all have catechisms.
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… but not designed to arrogantly corner believers with “I gotcha with my superior theology”
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That sort of stinkin’ thinkin’ about the character of God is the reason that 90+% of Christendom worldwide have rejected the tenets of reformed theology for the last 500 years. Just give me Jesus … you can keep Calvin.
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Robert,
“In light of the Bible’s teaching that God does everything for His glory and because God’s glory is good for His children, I would say God allows some children to have illnesses, though I also cannot fully explain on this side of glory why and how the illness will ultimate manifest His glory.”
++++++++++++++++
wope….stop the presses….
i’m getting dizzy with all the glories, here.
maybe you can answer (as directly & concretely as possible):
1. what is His glory?
2. how is His glory good for his children?
3. “on this side of glory”…. a new kind of glory! is this different from ‘His glory’?
4. “manifest his glory”… so, i take it this is another way of saying “for His glory”. is this not so totally & completely mega-ultra abstract on steroids as to be sort of useless & meaningless and better left alone?
why be so preoccupied with something like this, with zero practical application except staring at one’s navel & mumbling “…for the glory of God…mmm….God’s glory…glory….glorious glory…”?
which no one can possibly decipher even though they pretend to?
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Max,
Can God stop any evil He wants to?
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elastigirl,
1. what is His glory?
The manifestation of His full character—perfect love, perfect justice, perfect holiness, etc.
2. how is His glory good for his children?
We were made to participate in the eternal relationship of love between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To participate in a relationship you have to know the other person, so we have to know God’s glory in order to fully participate in that relationship of love.
God is also the most wonderful thing in existence. It’s good for us to enjoy the fullness of that which is most wonderful. Is it good for your soul to experience the beauty of creation, of love, etc. That’s just a very faint glimpse of the good that will come with experiencing the fullness of God (insofar as we can as creatures.)
3. “on this side of glory”…. a new kind of glory! is this different from ‘His glory’?
Think on this side of the new heaven and earth, before Jesus returns. We cannot fully explain before we see Jesus face to face why evil happens.
4. “manifest his glory”… so, i take it this is another way of saying “for His glory”. is this not so totally & completely mega-ultra abstract on steroids as to be sort of useless & meaningless and better left alone?
I don’t think so. We receive our fullest joy when we delight in others—our children, our spouses, our friends. And our delight in them grows the more we know them and their character. It’s the same thing with God, but multiply that by infinity. Our fullest joy will be in seeing God face to face and for all eternity coming to a deeper knowledge of Him and His character.
why be so preoccupied with something like this, with zero practical application except staring at one’s navel & mumbling “…for the glory of God…mmm….God’s glory…glory….glorious glory…”?
The New Testament continually points to the life to come and the glory of God as that which will make all the suffering of this age somehow worth it.
“This light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison.” (2 Cor. 4:17)
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I’m with you elastigirl.
Most of the stuff I’ve read about ‘God’s glory’ paints him as a self-absorbed cosmic narcissist who cares for nothing except aggrandizing himself.
And woe unto you if you (generic you) don’t see it the way they see it.
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All of those things have specific terms and conditions. I’ve encountered too many people who started out by calling me a “wonderful woman of God” and ended up deciding that my beliefs did not check all of the boxes on their mental checklist of necessary Christian traits.
Stop telling me what to think.
Stop telling me I secretly adhere to your beliefs.
Begin to develop respect, as you currently have none.
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Robert,
OK NOW WE’RE GETTING SOMEWHERE! or, maybe nowhere at all quite yet.
.
.
“1. what is His glory?
The manifestation of His full character—perfect love, perfect justice, perfect holiness, etc.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
how do you know that’s what it means?
————————-
“2. how is His glory good for his children?
We were made to participate in the eternal relationship of love between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To participate in a relationship you have to know the other person, so we have to know God’s glory in order to fully participate in that relationship of love.”
++++++++++++++++++
then i must have glory, too.
to participate in a relationship with me one has to know me, so one has to know my glory in order to fully participate in that relationship of…say, fun, friendship, art & music, and deep conversations deep into the night about any topic with beverages of choice and a candle. and chocolate and cheese…sprigs of herbs…cigars…
—————————
“3. “on this side of glory”…. a new kind of glory! is this different from ‘His glory’?
Think on this side of the new heaven and earth, before Jesus returns. We cannot fully explain before we see Jesus face to face why evil happens.”
+++++++++++++++
yes, the hereafter.
why do you call it glory? is it a different kind of glory? it’s weird to use the same abstract term for 2 separate categories that have completely different meanings.
———————
4. “manifest his glory”…
We receive our fullest joy when we delight in others”
++++++++++++++
did mark twain say that?
well, really, not even Mark Twain has the power to declare what my greatest joy is. or anyone else’s.
————-
“The New Testament continually points to the life to come and the glory of God as that which will make all the suffering of this age somehow worth it.
“This light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison.” (2 Cor. 4:17)”
++++++++++++++++++++++++
maybe Paul was reminiscining about the ‘suddenly a light shone around him from heaven’ as he neared Damascus.
maybe glory is amazing light from an inherently powerful source (nuclear explosions have amazing light – how much moreso God).
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There is a point where a hyper-Calvinist crosses a mental/spiritual no-return red line and becomes a navel mumbler for the rest of his life. It’s a sad thing to behold.
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Robert,
If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
(P.S. are you John Piper?)
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Friend,
It’s not me. The resurrection of the dead is an an ecumenical Christian belief shared by all Christians. It’s in the Apostles and Niceness Creeds, which are about the only things all Christians have believed.
This isn’t a Calvinist thing. If you don’t believe in the resurrection of the dead, that’s extremely serious.
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I’m not John Piper. Can God stop any evil or do you believe his power is limited to only some evils? This isn’t a hard question.
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elastigirl,
In context, Paul is talking about his post conversion suffering preparing him for a glory ahead of him. It’s not about conversion.
As far as the others, it would take more exegesis than us reasonable in a comment box. But:
1. You do have glory. All people do as we are the image of God.
2. You don’t find most fulfillment in doing good for others? I’ve never heard a professing Christian say that before. The entire tenor of the New Testament is toward serving others as our greatest end. Phillipians 2 is a ready example. Jesus says to become great we must become servants.
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1. Not talking about surgery, I’m talking about events like the Holocaust but then the argument is that’s godless men so we’ll stick with pediatric cancer or pick your poison. You’re talking moral equivalency. That there is no good or bad just god. If it’s just a god and nothing else and it’s all preordained then your existence is pointless because he doesn’t need you. It becomes like the comic of Jean Paul Sartre’s answering machine “I’m not here, you’re not here, there is no beep, don’t leave a message”
2. They say they did and apparently it was all planned before creation, so they’re Christian, so am I, so was Ayatollah Khomeini. Gonna be a very crowded heaven!
3. Sure as cursed fig tree it does!
4..” On the other hand, if there are no rewards or cursing in an afterlife, then the most you can say about any evil thing is “I don’t like that” and the fact that you are against abuse is mere personal preference” – your words make my point and yes abuse is most definitely not my personal preference! And I don’t need fear of heck to say that. But since evil is God’s way of creating good or is it the other way around? Lol – this human thinks suffering is bad and that it’s not ordained and god doesn’t have good purpose in evil. and I don’t know why he can make animals talk or fig trees die but let his believers burn in a Rwandan church during that terrible time.
Or maybe it’s because, it’s not real?
Thunk the final nail goes in and that’s it for Jack.
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Muff Potter,
That would be true if God weren’t the highest good in existence and the most wonderful and beautiful thing/being of all.
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Robert,
I can’t speak for God, Robert. I’ll leave that up to you.
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Max,
You’ve never been afraid to speak for God before in letting us all know how much he hates whichever Calvinists you think are secretly plotting to take over the SBC, an issue not addressed in Scripture, what’s the hesitation now?
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Jack,
Should everyone share your personal preference that abuse is bad?
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Arrogant comment. You are still questioning my faith and making implications. I did not ask you to teach me.
You are in fact a Calvinist sea lion.
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This will be your occasional reminder that not all Christians are/were Trinitarians. Oneness Christians exist, along with Quakers and others. Beyond this, Trinitarians have various strains and subtleties of belief.
Also (sigh) “We were made to…” omits Jewish people.
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I’m not questioning your faith. I’m saying that denying the resurrection of the body is a serious matter. Whether you do or not, I have no idea. If you do deny it, that’s very serious. If not, then great!
It shouldn’t be controversial to say, on a Christian blog run by a professingly orthodox Lutheran, that denying the resurrection of the body is a serious matter.
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Trinitarians don’t recognize non-Trinitarians as Christian and they show that by requiring those not baptized in the triune name of God to be baptized in the triune name. Again, not a controversial comment on a blog run by a member of a confessional Lutheran body. If you were to apply for membership in Dee’s church and had been a member of the Oneness Pentecostals, they’ll baptize you before membership because they would believe you aren’t a Christian.
And of course my statement includes Jews. God made humanity for the purpose of sharing in that triune fellowship. Will Jews who reject Christ reach that purpose. No. But neither will atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Again, shouldn’t be a controversial statement on a blog run by a confessional Lutheran.
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Folks, I believe we’ve struck a nerve with Robert. In a weird way, he might be coming to the light.
“There are six things the Lord hates — no, seven: arrogance, lying, murdering, plotting evil, eagerness to do wrong, a false witness, sowing discord among brothers” (Proverbs 6:16-19)
God doesn’t hate the New Calvinists, but their behavior has included several items on that list as they have sought to takeover the SBC and other expressions of faith.
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This will be your occasional reminder that not all Christians baptize; and that many Christian groups generously recognize baptisms that do not precisely resemble their own.
You are a gatekeeper in addition to being a sea lion.
I know, I know, I’m saying serious things. I also think that Heaven will have a tremendous variety of people. It won’t be like Costco turning folks away because they only have a BJ’s card.
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“I felt I had to write about men who would dearly love to lead you astray. Yet I know that the touch of his Spirit never leaves you, and you don’t really need a human teacher. You know that his Spirit teaches you about all things, always telling you the truth and never telling you a lie. So, as He has taught you, live continually in Him.” (1 John 2:27)
When you are taught Truth, it’s easy to detect a lie. When you have experienced the genuine, the counterfeit is easier to spot.
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Robert,
“In context, Paul is talking about his post conversion suffering preparing him for a glory ahead of him. It’s not about conversion.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, really he’s talking about how he envisions being where God is.
We know Paul experienced blinding bright light and the voice of God, thus it’s reasonable to assume he associated bright light with being where God is.
Why get into fanciful conjecture beyond that?
————-
.
“As far as the others, it would take more exegesis than us reasonable in a comment box.”
++++++++++++++++
How much conjecture would you say is woven into said exegesis?
———————-
.
2. Your wording was “We receive our fullest joy when we delight in others”. it’s hard to relate to those words. too… lofty, floaty,…
You follow up with ‘find most fulfillment in doing good for others’. Sure, I love people, and I love making a difference in their lives through any of various means.
Most people of all faiths or no faith fit in this category.
all my atheist and agnostic, muslim and hindu friends and family certainly do.
in my world travels every place I’ve gone, from ultra remote to ‘top destination’, is full of people who are ready, willing, and very happy to help strangers with great kindness and generosity.
i can’t say i find my most fulfillment in doing good for others…. it’s a big question, ‘what fulfills me the most?’. it’s probably a combination of things.
really, the complexity and variety in human beings defies categorizing them into the “we find our fullest joy & greatest fulfillment in X” box.
Thank you, Robert, for the engagement. Let’s see if we can find the brass tacks together.
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Whosoever will may come … predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son … chosen to be holy and blameless … called according to His purpose … elected to salvation by belief in the Truth … saved through faith.
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No Trinitarian group that I know of recognizes non-Trinitarian baptisms. As far as those other groups, again, Trinitarians don’t recognize them as authentically Christian.
So yeah, a confessional Lutheran Church will recognize a believer’s baptism performed in a Trinitarian Baptist church. But it won’t recognize a Oneness Pentecostal baptism.
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Max,
Whosoever will believe in Christ will be saved.
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Ahhh, but the call for all to believe is pointless with them having no genuine free will if God must regenerate them first in order for them to believe.
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If anyone is curious about the type of troll known as a sea lion, look at the Wondermark website. It’s a lovely old drawing, number 1062. Also easily found on your favorite search engine with a phrase like “sea lion wondermark.” Enjoy. 🙂
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I keep seeing these charging stations at highway rest stops.
There are no coincidences. 😉
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Human beings have genuine free will. Their decisions are not coerced.
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That’s a funny strip thanks for sharing it. I don’t mind that you sealioned into the conversation between elastigirl and me.
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Short answer. Yes.
But seriously, you’re punking me now …. right?
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This is clearly trolling, and sadly typical of certain engagingly sadistic church types. Seeing it in the wild can be good detachment practice, and a handy reminder of why some of us now seek out loving congregations, or stay home, or leave the faith behind altogether. They fancy it’s about winning, but it never is.
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As an apostate, sometimes I wonder if I’m making the right choice. A lifetime of programming is hard to break. You used to know and then you circle the drain. And then it falls off like a heavy coat in summer.
But you leave a community you used to share common ground with. A bit like stepping off a ledge.
Good thing I have friends outside Christianity.
I engage in discussion like this, and I know I’m on the right track.
But I think I’ll keep Christmas though, always did enjoy Christmas.
Great discussions over the years so thanks for that. You do get interesting insights.
Peace.
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G Smith,
Some of whom chop and change them (if not inconsistent enough already)
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Christian isn’t a category in God’s eyes. It’s a loose social label.
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Robert,
Robert,
– your forked tongue about affairs outside your own denomination
– your exclusively toying with those who called your bluff by their pretending to not believe in their own version of omnipotence
I have mentioned how honest agnostics can have an omnipotence hypothesis without feeling under obligation (less in fashion now)
TGC are not a church so are not nominally answerable but they still teach wrongly. Why have you defended their wrongdoing? TGC are the go-to. TGC set out TO be the go-to.
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So painful, but you did what you needed to do.
Your words have caused me to reflect on why I still belong to a church, after some of my own experiences. When I did step back, I did not intend to leave. I just lacked the energy to attend services quite as often, and my attendance tapered off to nothing.
Slowly I processed things that had happened not at that church, but much earlier. After five years away, I felt brave enough to return, and prepared to look for signs that my congregation was reasonably safe and committed to kindness. I still keep an eye on things, and pose challenges.
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Jack,
No. Just curious how you can consistently expect others to share your mere personal preferences without an external moral standard to ground them.
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Robert,
i think you’ve been brainwashed to some degree by your theology & faith community (since brainwashing typically happens in corporate settings).
believing your system of ideas because you believe the system is true–
i call this having faith in faith itself–
and not able to see and recognize observable data that contradicts your system.
you seem to be unable to see that human beings outside the christian bubble share the primary moral code: it is wrong to lie, deceive, cheat, extort, be selfish, be lazy & irresponsible, cause harm to others, steal, murder,…
all my family and friends who are atheist/agnostic/muslim/hindu have superior personal integrity to any christian family & friend I have.
It’s utterly striking, and bowls me over like bowling-ball-hits-bowling-pins. like ice water in my face.
something is off if you either can’t see such things, or simply don’t know anyone outside the christian bubble.
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Robert,
OK, Robert, it’s like this. You are miffing off a bunch of people and doing so by complaining that they are somehow not answering you in the manner with which you expect. You remind me of a bunch of guys that have come to this blog and are convinced that they will argue the local populace into the Kingdom of Calvin.
Friend, you must calm down and learn to converse, not fight. You will argue against what I plan to do and call me all sorts of descriptors, but I won’t respond.
I am pulling out something I used to do that was effective. You are going into slow moderation. I will need to approve each of your comments, and sometimes I am too busy to do so, if you get my drift.
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Where have I said that? Of course all people do share that basic moral framework. I’m just asking why that is the case and why we expect people to share it.
You don’t have to be a Calvinist, let alone a Christian, to live an ethical life. I just don’t think one can consistently expect others to do the same apart from theism.
I’m not questioning anyone’s moral integrity. I apologize if anything I’ve said would indicate otherwise.
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And this is a common Christian hubris. That without Christianity I have no external moral standards. There are lots of moral standards and throughout my life i’ve been influenced by many of them.
Generally speaking evil is when people commit acts against each other with malicious intent. And yes there is necessary evil. War is evil but can be necessary and I’m not debating any country’s foreign policy, this is a general statement. Soldiers and other military personnel are not evil people – they’re people who run the gamut like everyone else.
But in my moral wasteland I set my standard as I don’t wilfully harm others. Abuse of all kinds is repugnant. I don’t think weather events are evil, there is no intelligence behind them, nor do I think cancer is evil for the same reason. But these things are not good, people suffer and I don’t see any good in the suffering.
I admire people who live through traumatic events. I’ve lived through traumatic events, it is part of being human.
I respect people who have faith and they feel that belief helps them. Maybe there is a greater good out there, I’ve experienced things I cannot explain. I believe there are many roads to truth. Hindus, Muslims, Jains Jews, Buddhist Wiccans and those of us with no fixed religion are on it with Christians.
I wasn’t joking. If there’s a heaven, you may be sharing it with many diverse people.
In the meantime we must act to fight injustice when we can. If there is a force for good, then we are it’s agents. No outcome is preordained, you CAN prevent forest fires.
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Jack,
And, yes, when it comes to hurting others, I do expect people to share my “personal preference”. Most of them do. C’mon, they say there’s no such as a stupid question, but really?
I still think you’re punking me with that one.
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1. Honestly don’t know what you’re talking about in the first point.
2. Historically in classical Christian theism, omnipotence means God can do all that he purposes to do and that one signal evidence for this is the resurrection. Historically, belief in the resurrection is required to be a Christian/be saved. Paul says as much. There’s nothing distinctively Calvinist about any of that. Wrapped up in this is the belief that God can stop any evil he chooses to. Again, historically this is just the case.
This is a blog wherein a confessional Lutheran has defended Lutheranism. What I have just said is inherent to the orthodox Lutheran tradition. It just is. This is not the difference between Calvinism and Lutheranism. Now, I have assumed that those who comment here and call themselves Christian believe what I just said is the historic, catholic view of omnipotence. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable expectation. If Dee were an open theist or a process theologian-and she isn’t, then my expectation would be unreasonable.
And historically, if one denies the resurrection or God’s omnipotence, then the catholic tradition-Lutheran, Calvinist, Roman Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, Orthodox, etc.-would say that person is in serious danger. That’s just the truth.
I don’t know anyone here personally, so when they claim to be Christian, my assumption that they believe in the resurrection and know they must do so to be Christian seems charitable to me. I could interrogate people about all their beliefs before taking them at their word, but why? And before anyone says you should just accept them as a Christian on their say so even if they deny cardinal Christian doctrines, ask yourselves if I should believe someone who says he loves his wife simply on his say so if what he says or does is not in line with his profession of love.
3. I missed that bit about agnosticism. I apologize if it’s here on the thread.
4. What wrong-doing from TGC have I defended? I’m honestly flummoxed by this.
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Not at all my claim, at least not on purpose. There are many transcendent external moral standards. Islam, Judaism, and other theisms that have a personal God have them.
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Robert
We have a rule. Do not ask questions about moderation. We know more than you do about what is going on behind the scenes. Comment not approved.d
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Thank you, Dee and GBTC, for every single thing you do.
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Robert,
“Where have I said that? …I just don’t think one can consistently expect others to do the same apart from theism.”
++++++++++++++++++
your words: “Just curious how you can consistently expect others to share your mere personal preferences without an external moral standard to ground them.”
i’ll explain the significance of your words, and how insulting they are for those who perceive (whether correctly or incorrectly) that you see them in the inferior out-group (& not welcomed in your superior in-group):
–you, Joe Bloe, not being in my superior tribe, have no sense of morality, no sense of right and wrong, but are only capable of mere preferences w/all the understanding required for making preferences from the drop-down menu on a hotel website. A few steps up from a hamster.
–the odds are at least some people in the evil worldly world will also have your same mere preferences — like by chance finding people who also think pickles and ice cream are good together. but none of you have any concept morality or of right & wrong, because you are not capable of it. Of course I’m capable of understanding these things, as are those in my in-group.
These are the take-aways of your antagonizing statements, whether accurate or not.
————————
“I just don’t think one can consistently expect others to do the same apart from theism.”
++++++++++++++++
then i marvel where employers’ codes of conduct come from, & the laws of the land in countries around the globe, all of which uphold things like honesty, don’t lie, don’t cheat, do not harm others, etc.
I marvel where my kids’ public school got their ideas for the peace path which is painted on the blacktop and which all students learn:
taking responsibility for one’s feelings and one’s behavior in being honest with what was hurtful, apologizing, forgiving, agreeing to do better.
there is more maturity on the public school playground than i’ve seen in many christian communities.
my view is that being made in the image of God is the imprint of a common sense of morality and of right and wrong within all human beings.
How else could the human race have survived otherwise?
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Robert is very typical of other hyper-Calvinists I have encountered. They just don’t know when to quit with their one-upmanship arguments to support their theology. The more they defend their doctrines to paint it as the one true gospel, the more mean-spirited they get in their exchange with others. They are so thoroughly indoctrinated that they can’t accept or be instructed by other expressions of faith. After a while, it’s a hole they can’t climb out of. It must be very frustrating. I actually feel sorry for Robert.
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Amen and Amen!
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Robert,
Robert is completely off the point by his own choosing. And hasn’t addressed his TGC fixation.
Are you praying Dan 9: 3-21 and Ezk 36?
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I never once said that non-Christians have no sense of morality. In fact, I explicitly said above that they do.
then i marvel where employers’ codes of conduct come from, & the laws of the land in countries around the globe, all of which uphold things like honesty, don’t lie, don’t cheat, do not harm others, etc.
With Paul the Apostle I say they are implanted on the conscience by the one true God.
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Mean-spirited? Can you please point me to where I have been mean spirited? I haven’t belittled anyone’s intelligence, called anyone any names, or anything of the like. Literally all I’ve done is asked questions and assumed that the professing Christians here all share the common historic Christian doctrine of divine omnipotence and the resurrection that all Christians historically have confessed whether they are Calvinists or not.
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Again, Dee, it’s your blog and you can do whatever you want. It would be nice to know your standards so I don’t violate them. I’ve had reasonably good interactions here in the past.
MOD: When you were typing this an any other comment on this blog there is a link immediately above where you’re typing.
Did you ever click this and read what it says?
GBTC
Literally all I’ve done is ask questions and assumed that professing Christians here share the historic Christian understanding of the resurrection of the dead and the classic Christian view of divine omnipotence that is found in your own Lutheran tradition, as well as the Roman Catholic, Reformed, Anglican, etc. Am I supposed to view other professing Christians with suspicion until they pass a theological exam? I’m not being snarky; I honestly don’t understand.
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Friend,
I needed this today. Thank you.
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So a personal god is the requirement.
Now we’re getting somewhere.
Then the only road is not Christianity and Jesus is not the only way to the father. So the resurrection happened and Muhammad is also the true prophet of god. And since Jews don’t believe either, and they’re right too!
And hey! So are the Mormons, and the Jehovah’s witnesses!
I had no idea Calvinism was so ecumenical….
Just a heads up, the humans in those other faiths will be a little disappointed in the whole god is evil but for a good reason schtick.
From what I understand it’s pretty binary, evil is bad but god is good.
I mean it’s going to be a hard sell that the Holocaust in any way shape or form glorified god and happened for some cosmic greater good.
They have more common ground with me than with your crew.
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Dude, you said my dislike of abuse was a personal preference and why do I expect everyone else to agree to a personal preference.
Because I don’t have a “personal god” (whatever that means) I don’t have morality.
You’re parsing your words, you mean by “non Christian”, the Abrahamic religions.
The Hindus and I apparently don’t rate on any human scale.
Dehumanization leads down some very dark roads
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Robert,
1 – You were also rude to several of us, in front of the rest of us, and in front of worldwide readership – and noticed yourself being so.
2 – You pick easy targets like Elasti (whom you are not effective in telling off) and ignore my accurate accusation that you are covering for the dominionist TGC. 3 – A phrase you used is “share the common historic Christian doctrine of divine omnipotence and the resurrection that all Christians historically have confessed” which you have now got to live up to by believing in Ascension.
4 – You didn’t get to the point of what God’s glory is.
5 – You apparently aren’t serious about what Christ wants for us: which isn’t what you think I think about what He wants for us.
6 – My generic prayers include you; do you pray generic prayers?
7 – That you didn’t stop when you were saying almost the same as some of us has led to our having question marks about the state of your sought out background knowledge.
8 – Slow down and look lots of things up! Best wishes! Hoping This Helps!
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Robert:
Get an intellectual grip. God created the world the way it needed to be created. Contingency is neither random nor fixed. He and His angels constantly intervene, in small as well as big ways. Have you ever pondered what suffering is for itself, without any religious trappings? I have known (mostly in person but sometimes by reading) contingency and any other topic described the way you do in all the settings you listed and more, which is why I don’t talk about “C of E doctrine”, “RCC doctrine” etc as those are so liquid. What happened to Jonah? Paul? Daniel? The father of Belshazzar? Who saved the men of Sodom and what from? You claim to say God is “logical” while proving you don’t believe He is. Please don’t presume to talk about the meanings of our lives according to your template. Do you understand the role of the Holy Spirit gifts in providence? Of prayer? Perhaps you are influenced by an imbalance in sacramental teachings as Augustine was (overstressing hierarchy). How can you embrace and affirm priesthood of believers and soul competency? Has Holy Scripture got any meanings? Do you get anything out of the Psalms? Do you know what image of God is as to epistemology and logic? You have potential to learn how to understand others’ comments accurately.
elatigirl,
Most of your comments are apposite but you shouldn’t stay within his template or cite conditions outside squirrel dumpling eating districts (everything is under threat here and there are things we are not allowed to talk about) lest it give Robert a maximum to fall below. God wants you to develop the spirit of a sound mind and a renewed mind, that means fresh forms of thinking, that means finding out.
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Robert,
“I never once said that non-Christians have no sense of morality. In fact, I explicitly said above that they do.”
++++++++++++++++++++
that clarification came later, in response to being challenged.
I was addressing your earlier comment, which would have have stood unless you had been challenged, and the takeaways for people outside of your group.
you won’t always have the opportunity for addendums and to clarify previous statements. Your audience, whether of one, a few, or many will be left with the implications of your initial words.
.
.
i notice that when many christian leaders and influencers cobble together their theology & new spins on theology, and then talk about said theology, it’s all done in glib way–
without awareness of (1) the impact the theology has on others (never them – the theology always favors them); (2) the insulting, degrading, at times harmful implications of their statements.
very careless, without seeing the bigger picture.
if i were the one doing this, I’d want to know so I could find a way to do things better, in communication and assessing to what degree to I prioritize principle over people.
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Michael in UK,
i wish i understood what you wrote but i haven’t a clue what any of it means.
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elastigirl,
everyone knows that squirrel dumplings will help your mental faculties
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Michael in UK,
Of course there’s contingency. My confession affirms it. I’m glad you affirm God intervenes. Sometimes he doesn’t when he very could have. Which means, at the end of the day, anyone who believes God can and does intervene hasn’t any other answer than the same one a Calvinist does.
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Max,
yeah, i missed that one.
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Michael in UK,
1. I apologized for miscommunication. I’m still waiting for someone to show me my rudeness. I still don’t know how assuming basic Christian orthodoxy of professing Christian interlocutors or assuming that professing Christian interlocutors would agree with the basic idea that we NEED the historic Christian doctrine of omnipotence (since the Bible repeatedly has us put our hope in God’s power) is rude.
To put it another way, do you want me to be like other Calvinists who wrongly think that there’s no such thing as a true orthodox Christian outside of Calvinism?
2. I have explicitly said I’m not a fan of TGC. Your accusation is not accurate.
3. Of course I believe in the Ascension.
4. I explicitly gave my view of God’s glory to elastigirl: the full manifestation of God’s character/being.
5. Not exactly following you here. What Christ wants for us is what God wants for us. Christ wants to make us children who share fully in his relationship with the Father and know that He loves us with the very same love as the Father does, all to God’s glory. That’s John 17.
6. Yes
7. I’m sorry but I don’t understand this. Did you inadvertantly miss a word or something? I’ve done it myself.
8. I really wish what you said did help, but I’m honestly still confused.
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elastigirl,
In any conversation, things are going to be missed. That’s why you ask questions.
Every conversation takes place in a context which will include shared assumptions. When people tell me they are Christians, I assume they hold certain beliefs that Christians historically have held in common. For shorthand, it’s the Apostles Creed.
How does one measure the harmful effects of one’s theology?
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Golly, 323 comments! Well done, gang. 🙂
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Robert,
“How does one measure the harmful effects of one’s theology?”
+++++++++++++++++
for starters, imagination.
and empathy (assuming it hasn’t been theologized away as anathema, and atrophied away for lack of exercise).
imagining what would it would be like to be in someone else’s shoes.
then reading what others have to say, talking to them & listening with an open mind, compassion & empathy. if compassion & empathy don’t kick in on their own, then allowing yourself to open up to these God-given responses.
.
.
theological systems go high on certain things, while de-emphasizing or ignoring other things completely. some piece(s) of scriptural information of necessity is (are) always excluded & left out in every theological system.
since it’s not possible to embrace it all in an air-tight, leak-proof, “biblical” kind of way at any given point in time, we all err on something.
why err on what destroys human beings by degrees?
why not err on something else?
like giving up theological points that feed one’s need for control & predictability (that’s a big motivator in making the choices that eventuate into theology) for the sake of other human beings, instead of vice versa.
or giving up one’s need to be the alpha, or one’s need for significance.
(again, it is *other* human beings that are at ground zero & receiving the full weight of not their theology but someone else’s.
not many christians embrace theology that destroys parts of their own lives, even in small ways.
and for those that do, then i wonder why the need for self-flagellation that would prompt such a thing.)
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Robert,
“I apologized for miscommunication. I’m still waiting for someone to show me my rudeness.”
++++++++++++++++
i believe i did this on Sat Jul 01, 2023 at 05:39 PM.
maybe it was more lack of awareness than rudeness… but the former is often the cause of the latter.
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Robert,
there won’t always be opportunity for your audience to ask questions. therefore, better to understand the implications of one’s words ahead of time.
i reckon most commenters here subscribe to the apostles’ creed. which allows for a wide array of perspectives.
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elastigirl,
That may be true, but I didn’t realize that it would be such a problem to assume that professing Christians believe in the resurrection of the dead or that God is Almighty, both of which are confessed in the Apostles Creed and don’t really admit to varying interpretations.
Historically, all Christians have agreed on the fact of what he purposes to do. The differences have to do with what God wills to do with that power. The difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists lie there, not in the possession of power itself. So, when I say that someone who professes to be a Christian shares the same understanding of divine power I do but they might not realize it, it’s not a gotcha, it’s me saying, “hey, our views are really not as different as you might think.” A non-Calvinist could say the exact same thing to me on other issues.
Based on what I’ve read from Dee, for instance, we probably agree on 90-95 percent of things theologically even if one or both of us don’t realize it.
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That is: Historically, all Christians have agreed on the fact that God can do all he purposes to do.
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elastigirl,
I don’t see anything rude about saying that I don’t understand how one can consistently expect others to share a personal preference or moral code apart from theism. It’s an expression of an opinion. Others jumped in and assumed I said “you can’t have a moral code if you’re not a Christian.” Those words were never said by me, nor are they implied by my statement.
Why not extend the assumption of Christian charity?
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When everyone leaves it behind.
Calvinism is small potatoes in the grand Christian scheme of things. It doesn’t match the power and influence worldwide of the Catholic Church.
That doesn’t mean Catholicism is better but at least they have a pretty good handle on the concepts of good and evil – too bad the official church sucks at implementation but they are being smitten by the stark fist of enlightenment one lawsuit at a time.
Calvinism will only grow by breeding more Calvinists, it’s too rigid to grow any other way. I don’t think there’ll be any mass conversions any time soon.
And the apostles creed? You said upstream that it’s about a personal god – no Jesus required. So what’s up with that?
I suppose you could say that in the Trinity they’re all one but according to you I can get morality being Jewish or Muslim – so again you don’t need Christianity.
Your evangelism isn’t convincing but you’re going to be laughing with Hitler and Pol Pot in heaven while I’m experiencing God’s glory in heck.
But since my morality is just personal preference, I’m probably not worthy of heck any more than the family pet. Just artificial intelligence that speaks like an Abrahamic human.
Yep, me, Lassie, Morris the cat, Rin Tin Tin and a few billion Hindus and Buddhists – left behind on earth.
Good thing I like Bollywood movies, and milk bone treats.
Your theology rests on blind obedience to a god who runs a clockwork universe. There is no point to existing but for his glory.
Whatever floats your boat.
Last comms on this thread. I’m declaring victory and going to pull a Max and go on hiatus from commenting for a while.
Taking the family to see Spider man. Cleanse the palate with something nice and secular….
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I am inclined to stop comments on this post on Monday. Some may want to wrap up the arguments.
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Robert,
the point is others felt insulted, (and rightly so if you hadn’t clarified.)
implication is not necessarily intent.
“implication: the conclusion that can be drawn from something although it is not explicitly stated.” (the meaning i had in mind, at least)
you made it clear the implication people picked up on was not your intent. Thank you for that.
i intended nothing uncharitable, but rather wanted to point out problematic communication – and I took a direct, plain-spoken approach.
i appreciate plain-spoken, because it reduces misunderstanding and rules out the possibility of manipulation.
my delivery may have been prickly, but if it was hurtful, i apologize. it was not my intent, and never want to hurt anyone.
thank you, dee, for letting this conversation play out as long as i has.
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The intent sometimes is to create uniform thought, or an illusion of agreement, through various wiles. If someone shows a little pique or forgets to say “excuse me” in the middle of discussion, the calmer person “wins.” Still, the calmer person can be completely wrong.
Jesus himself got annoyed a couple of times, and that probably delighted the Pharisees.
I don’t understand everyone’s words and intentions well enough to know if that applies here. Civility matters, but 2 + 2 will never equal 5, no matter how calmly the wrong answer is repeated.
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Max,
While they last 😉
elastigirl,
Base yourself on some fragments you understand, think round them, enquire further in context. Wording is allusions to keys for looking into / perspectivising. The word is not the thing (essentialist fallacy). You have understood me sometimes, and I you, often.
Thank you Robert
Michael in UK,
…
2. I have explicitly said I’m not a fan of TGC. Your accusation is not accurate.
3. Of course I believe in the Ascension.
4. I explicitly gave my view of God’s glory to elastigirl: the full manifestation of God’s character/being.
5. Not exactly following you here. What Christ wants for us is what God wants for us. Christ wants to make us children who share fully in his relationship with the Father and know that He loves us with the very same love as the Father does, all to God’s glory. That’s John 17.
6. Yes
7. I’m sorry but I don’t understand this. Did you inadvertantly miss a word or something? I’ve done it myself.
8. I really wish what you said did help, but I’m honestly still confused.
2-3 we’ll never exhaust the providential meanings of Ascension. As TGC don’t exhibit comprehension, I was on the lookout whether you had picked up on this. Subliminally, this is probably at the bottom of others’ worries on the issue, but they aren’t (yet) good at saying how. (As also point 7)
4-5 We’ll never exhaust the providential meanings of “glory”.
6 I knew it! (Specific ones are often so complicated)
7 It came to me in the night that you in fact agreed with us all along about the irrelevance of what was probably REPRESENTED TO Jenni as Calvin.
8 Similar to my appeal to Elastigirl et al. I would do no less for anyone else’s comments. Occasionally I choose a proposition to be countered rather than to rephrase in enquiry format. Apologies. And thank you for your helpful atomising here.
(In some countries, the “reformed” don’t look to Calvin but
to MLJ.)
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Michael in UK,
last section – my comment entirely
previous sec tion – partly duplication of Robert’s points 2-8
elastigirl,
Tip top points!
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I don’t see this as true. You’re simply caught in a logical trap. God seems to limit the exercise of His perfect will regularly. Perhaps not so as to violate the autonomy of His creatures, for example. I have no problem understanding how the loving God Who does this is also grieved over the disease sin has caused.
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Sadly nearly all do, over here, the last few years. That’s why I rephrase EVERYTHING.