Pensive Woman link
“I give you this to take with you: Nothing remains as it was. If you know this, you can begin again, with pure joy in the uprooting.” ― Letters to My Daughters.
I remember when I first heard about Karen Swallow Prior. She was a well-liked professor at Liberty University who showed particular kindness to students who were struggling with their identities. I read about it in the Atlantic and decided she was a decent person who maintained her dignity throughout her stay at Liberty. She wrote about it here at Christianity Today: The Unremarkable Call to Love Our Gay Neighbors.
Not long ago, a former student of mine wrote an article for The Atlantic describing his experience coming out as gay at Liberty University, the evangelical school where I teach. He described how, after confiding his secret to me, I responded by saying, “I love you.” After the story was published, I received messages from across the country, some taking issue with my response, some affirming it. Either way, the messages indicated that assuring a gay student at a Christian university that he was loved was somehow remarkable.
Around the time of the mess surrounding Falwell, it did not surprise me that she decided to leave LIberty to accept a job at SEBTS, which is located near me: Karen Swallow Prior leaving Liberty after 21 years to join SEBTS faculty. I remember being curious about her decision. Although SEBTS is no Liberty, it is a died-in-the-wool, politically-inbred, SBC seminary. But to each his own. She continued to care about the students she left behind at Liberty, and Newsweek picked up that story: Former Liberty University Professor Says Students’ Doubting Their Faith’ After Falwell Scandal.
Professor Prior said students at Liberty and Christian colleges across the country are now struggling to keep the faith after it was revealed Falwell ignored his own stringent sexual morality rules while imposing them strictly on staff, students and followers.
“Not only me personally, but I have many students who are aware of these things [with Falwell] who are hurt and struggling and doubting their faith now. So, the consequences are dire but ultimately it does point to the fact that the core of our belief—that we are to put our faith in God, not in men,” the longtime former Liberty University professor told CNN Tuesday.
…The kind of arrogance and authoritarian leadership that we experienced as faculty was really just a symptom of this lifestyle that was one in which that he thought he could do anything and get away with it.
Two days ago, I saw the following thread from Swallow Prior on Twitter.
An update:
It has also become clear to me that I am simply not well-suited to the politics of institutional life in the SBC.
Therefore, I have made the difficult decision not to return to SEBTS in the fall.
2/3
— Karen Swallow Prior (Notorious KSP) (@KSPrior) March 20, 2023
I don’t know what the Lord has next for me, but I’m excited to see how he directs my steps.
3/3
— Karen Swallow Prior (Notorious KSP) (@KSPrior) March 20, 2023
I am sad to say that I was not surprised, especially by the following statement:
“I am simply not well-suited to the politics of institutional life in the SBC.”
Baptist Press endeavored to understand her resignation by posting Karen Swallow Prior to leave Southeastern Seminary. I found myself disagreeing with the following assessment.
Although a theological conservative, Prior has drawn occasional suspicion from male leaders in the Southern Baptist Convention. She also came under intense fire last year from the pastor of a small East Texas Baptist church who accused Prior of leaking a draft column previously written by his wife about her experience with abuse.
Prior vehemently denied leaking the draft and was cleared by seminary President Danny Akin. The pastor and his allies — part of the most conservative wing of the SBC today — broadened their attack to include both Akin and Prior. The same pastor was responsible for scuttling the SBC presidential campaign of Florida pastor Willy Rice last year.
The drama of this story played out in several Baptist News Global stories last year.
KSP is far stronger than this minor dispute and Dr. Akin strongly supported her. I venture to guess that the disagreement was broader, but we will have to wait for a future explanation.The Roys Report posted Professor and Author Karen Swallow Prior to Leave Prominent SBC Seminary. In addition, I found the following statement of interest.
In a statement to The Roys Report (TRR), Prior affirmed her present congregational affiliation with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC). “I currently continue to be a member of an SBC church and have made no decision one way or the other regarding that,” she said.
She has not made a decision one way or the other as to whether or not she will continue to be a member of the SBC. That is not the strongest endorsement of one’s church membership I’ve ever heard. But since I’m accused of being a “discernment blog,” let me make a discerning guess. It sounds like KSP has had a tough time in the SBC, and I, for one, get it.
Since there is little else to say about this decision as I write this, readers might enjoy this discussion with her on the following podcast. The Notorious KSP has just resigned. So what’s next for her?
Dr. Karen Swallow Prior, professor and author and monthly columnist of Religion News Service, just announced her resignation from the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. She joined Brian & Aubrey for the very first interview about her book coming out in August, The Evangelical Imagination: How Stories, Images & Metaphors Created a Culture in Crisis.
Since there is not much more to say, I discovered this podcast in which she was interviewed. Her segment is found between marks 9:40- 28:52. The reader might find it interesting.
I wish Karen well. I know many students will miss her.
PS Writing this on the fly. Please read this post from SBC Voices. It Is Time to Stand.
How does the old saying go? “All the good people are leaving?” Sounds like that is not so far from the truth according to the SBC Voices article linked to above.
“Professor Prior said students at Liberty and Christian colleges across the country are now struggling to keep the faith after it was revealed Falwell ignored his own stringent sexual morality rules while imposing them strictly on staff, students and followers.
“Not only me personally, but I have many students who are aware of these things [with Falwell] who are hurt and struggling and doubting their faith now. So, the consequences are dire but ultimately it does point to the fact that the core of our belief—that we are to put our faith in God, not in men,” the longtime former Liberty University professor told CNN Tuesday.“
It’s been brought up before, but since nothing reportedly has happened in light of this, it seems time to bring up again.
From September 26, 2020:
‘President’s Viewpoint — In a time of transition, the mission remains unchanged‘
https://www.liberty.edu/journal/article/season-of-renewal-new-president-upholds-his-promise-to-carry-out-the-original-goal-training-champions-for-christ/
“Some have voiced concerns that (interim Liberty University president) Prevo had worked too closely with Jerry Falwell Jr. in the past to lead Liberty University well today, but it’s clear he’s his own man, and his first priority is to honor God. One of the leading forensic teams in the world has been retained by the Board of Trustees to conduct a thorough investigation into university operations during Falwell Jr.’s tenure as president. Prevo is ready for it.”
“ TO THE EVANGELICAL COMMUNITY: “You might not know me. You might only know the name of Liberty University, and what you’ve seen in the news has saddened you. It’s broken any trust you may have had in a big Christian institution like ours.
“It’s easy to make assumptions when you’re looking in from the outside. But what’s been in the spotlight is not who we really are.
“I’ve believed in the mission and vision of this school for decades, but as I’ve gotten to know the faculty, staff, and students who are here right now, who make up the Liberty community today, I want you to know they are extraordinary. They serve one another. They pray for one another. They love the Lord Jesus Christ, and they love each other. They are the church of today becoming the church of tomorrow. And it’s such a privilege to know them.“
“So please don’t let your assumptions about Liberty University expand to include them — they don’t deserve it.“
What is written appears to point to thoroughly addressing actions that the writer indicates may have broken trust, specifically in the evangelical community looking in from the outside.
So…
Where are any hints, words, reports, findings, conclusions, follow up actions, stakeholder discussions, etc. two years after this claim that the Board of Trustees retained “one of the leading forensic teams in the world” in order “to conduct a thorough investigation into university operations during Falwell Jr.’s tenure as president”? Why don’t we start with the name of this leading forensics team, or is that too hard?
Perhaps part of the answer is elsewhere in the article:
“Recent events involving Liberty’s fourth president, Jerry Falwell Jr., have broken trust for most in Liberty University, and some question Liberty’s commitment to its nearly 50-year mission of Training Champions for Christ. “Prevo acknowledges their frustration. Then he shifts the focus.“
Might some be apt to contend that what was done by someone — who just about a month before had chaired the Board of Trustees and thus known and worked with the person in question — has seemed to largely amount to letting people talk for a while, letting the talk die down, letting time pass, and shifting the focus? I’m open to be persuaded otherwise, but the radio silence seems deafening — that, and what might look like further flares of a prairie fire.
Not only a “brain drain”, but a “grace drain.”
Definitely the worst part, and even more sadly true for it.
I honestly was surprised that KSP decided to leave SEBTS. I thought it was a pretty good fit for her. But, to be honest, given how much the SBC powers that be are attacking women these days, I shouldn’t have been surprised. Or maybe it became clear very recently that some SBC pastors are bound and determined to shut women up however they can.
For example, a list of something like 127 churches with women pastors is circulating right now, and there are SBC types who say these churches should be expelled. My response to that is, first, check and make sure they’re actually SBC churches, because when you guys did that earlier this year, one of the churches wasn’t even SBC. And second, keep doing these centralized actions, it will go further towards proving that the SBC is more a denomination rather than a loose association of churches, and thus, possibly piercing the corporate veil and making them financially liable for covering up sexual abuse.
Speaking of which, Robert Downen, who has moved from the Houston Chronicle to the Texas Tribune, has a blockbuster article today about how a prominent political type in Houston allegedly knew that Paul Pressler had been accused of sexually assaulting boys and men. But the part that got my attention was the letter sent by the First Baptist Church of Houston to Pressler in 2004 about allegations Pressler had gotten naked with a man a third his age (which would have meant the man was in his early 20s at the time). Anyway, the letter is attached as part of the story, but the point here is the First Baptist Church of Houston did nothing more than slap him on the wrist.
Here’s the story: https://www.texastribune.org/2023/03/27/houston-jared-woodfill-gop-paul-pressler-southern-baptist/
The email is a PDF link in the story.
This here is like exhibit 9,876,543,210 in the many exhibits of how churches cover up sexual abuse. (And yes, being pressured to skinny dip with a powerful man, a former judge, a lawyer, yeah, that’s abuse.) *shakes head*
The guy compiling the blacklist of churches with women pastors, was a 9Mark Dever intern, and a pastoral assistant under him at Capitol Hill Baptist Church:
https://www.arlingtonbaptist.com/shepherds
“Prior to serving as the Senior Pastor of Arlington Baptist Church, Mike Law Jr. served as…a Pastoral Assistant to Mark Dever at Capitol Hill Baptist Church”.
https://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/visit-us/sister-churches/
“Sister Churches…churches in this area who share both our doctrinal distinctives and our philosophy of ministry—and who have received staff, members, and money from CHBC…”
“Arlington Baptist Church…Mike Law Jr.”
Her teachings and speaking engagements have shown she clearly diverges from what the SBC teaches, so no surprise she won’t be working with them. Would be the same thing if it were a male, not a female.
Female faculty at SBC schools have been challenged on a lot of fronts. I’m reminded of Al Mohler’s brutal termination of Diana Garland, Dean of Church Social Work, Southern Seminary. She had challenged his decision to reject a candidate for a faculty position because the candidate believed women could serve in pastoral ministry. Dr. Garland went on to be successful equipping professionals in social work at Baylor University – the program bears her name, the Garland School of Social Work.
Indeed!
Afterburne,
Well…
The sergeant is sad and the piper is fey,
There’s no shot of Tully we’re having today,
The sky above us is cloudy and grey,
And it rains on the day that you’re leaving —
So march, march, down to the landing
And sit on your pack while the ferry’s away,
And fare thee well, you green hills of Liberty,
All of the good ones are leaving…
— adaptation of filksong “Green Hills of Harmony”
Ditto in the Jehovah’s Witnesses; check out the comment thread on this Telltale video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V973ipi2VfM
The comments should sound very very familiar.
Karen has a side to her that I don’t like or find helpful. She was spectacularly rude to me about an issue, and factually wrong.
Let’s hope this was just a bad moment for her.
I cannot imagine how she thought teaching here would end well. Surely that there is more to the story. Perhaps a lawsuit is pending?
What specific teachings of hers were not SBC and which Speaking engagements should she have said not to?
Are you saying since she was “rude” to you she was likely “rude” to others?
JDV,
I completely agree with you.. but again, we are just “discerning bloggers” and are taken the focus off the SBC “Faith and Mission Statement”, which according to PResident Greer is most important.. Never mind that that the “leading Christain Univeristy” is morally bankrupt and can not come clean with the truth…
i.e. The Calvinist Manifesto?
Well, sure he would say that! Greear is a New Calvinist. Al Mohler revised the Baptist Faith & Message in 2000 to allow wiggle room on belief and practice in order for him to launch his army of young reformers to Calvinize the SBC … a mission which is now largely accomplished … a mission which has never received the blessing of millions of non-Calvinist Southern Baptists (SBC’s default theology for the last 150 years, pre-Mohler). But while the pew slept and non-Calvinist pastors remained silent, Mohler took over.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
In further JW News of the Weird, this morning someone showed me a meme with the headline:
“Naked Woman Chases Jehovah’s Witnesses Down Street Yelling ‘Succumb to My Devil Vagina Magic!'”
(No context, no further details.)
1) “How to Troll JWs” was a cottage industry during my early days in SF/D&D fandom. They’d actually exchange How-To notes. This woman has made herself into a Legend with her method.
2) JWs are as humorless as any Fundagelicals. The guy who showed me the meme thinks they’re probably all barricaded in their houses, utterly terrified of the Invisible Pink Flying Vagina Monster coming for them.
3) Don’t you wish the IPFVM would pay some of these Biblical Manhood types a visit?
“Where else are they gonna go? I mean, what options are there? If you’re a theologically minded, deeply convictional young evangelical, if you’re committed to the gospel and you want to see the nations rejoice in the name of Christ, if you want to see gospel-built and structured and committed churches, your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed, basically being something like this New Calvinism or you’re gonna have to invent some other label for what’s just gonna be the same thing. There just are not options out there. And that’s something that I think frustrates some people. But when I am asked about the New Calvinism, I will say just basically, where else are they gonna go? Who else is gonna answer the questions? Where else will they find the resources they need? And where else are they gonna connect? This is a generation that understands, they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.” (Al Mohler, 2010)
Max,
There are a lot of Evangelical flavors that fit the list of desires you mentioned but which are not Reformed. The Pentecostal and Charismatic swaths seem to lean away from Calvinist thought. I am sure there are others as well.
Afterburne,
Oh wait, I see you are quoting Mohler.
‘ “……… they want to say the same thing Paul said. They want to stand with the Apostles. They want to stand with old, dead people. And they know they are going to have to if they are going to preach and teach the truth.” (Al Mohler, 2010) ‘
Max,
Yeah, Al. Who needs Jesus when we’ve got Paul, the Apostles, and old, dead people, right?
No, wait……
I’m a married woman, so I guess I gotta see what my husband says about that…… Paul and the BF&M 2000 wives submit, and all that……..
Nancy2(aka Kevlar),
I vote for Jesus
Yeah, don’t blame that nonsensical rambling on me!
“There just are not options out there”?! Come on, Al!
Southern Baptists (I spent 70 years with them) were distinctly non-Calvinist for 150 years, before Big Al came along to take them back to the theological roots they rejected after the Civil War.
As Dr. Mohler would say “There just are not options out there.”
But Jesus said “the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things”
Max,
Al Mohler surely did use a whole lot of words just to say, “MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!”…. didn’t he?
Ole Anthony word for word.
Poets priests and politicians
Have words to thank for their positions
Words that scream for your submission
And no-one’s jamming their transmission…
— The Police 1995 —
Afterburne,
Why has evangelicalism banned repenting by proxy (Dan 9: 3-21)?
Max,
The HS will teach… Only after the Neo Cal pecking orders has the “officially” followed.,
How else can you interpret his words?!
“if you’re committed to the gospel … your theology is just gonna end up basically being Reformed … like this New Calvinism”
Thus, in Mohler’s mind, any other expressions of faith (90+% of Christians worldwide who have rejected the tenets of reformed theology), are not committed to the gospel. Such arrogance!!
Max,
Which explains why they ignor Christ’s teachings… their doctrine trumps some basic teachings of Christ.. such as:
John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
We can debate what “loving one another” means, but I think there is plenty of examples of the Neo Cal crowd/leaders not following this..
Slightly off topic, but nonetheless it’s on TWW’s side-bar about Michelangelo’s ‘David’.
I could not believe what I was reading.
I had no issue with KSP.
I did not like that she endorsed the Revoice conference in the PCA. She later retracted that after some pressure I understand.
Her handling of Jennifer Buck’s personal history of abuse, which Ms. Buck had written down in a manuscript, was troubling for the lack of clarity. The Bucks said they gave it to her for help in editing etc. KSP says she showed it to a few people to see if it was publishable etc. KSP says she didn’t “leak” it.
Later, the manuscript was found floating all over SBC land, with efforts to hurt the Bucks in the process. There is even one recording of Tom Buck questioning 2 SBC Voices guys, Todd Benkert and Jay Adkins, about whether they had the manuscript, with whom they had talked about it etc. There’s a super hilarious part when Benkert and Adkins say a bit too much and inadvertently show that they had lied. KSP was in the middle of that.
Finally, I hear that more may be going on at SEBTS and that may be the issue for KSP versus general SBC controversy.
There’s a history there I’m sure
(Bold done by me.)
That.
And thank you, Muslin, fka Dee Holmes, for the link to The Texas Tribune article Houston GOP activist knew for years of child sex abuse claims against Southern Baptist leader, law partner.
Muff Potter,
I know. God created it all, yet so many can’t stand to see it. Very weird and unbalanced.
Yeah, I think it’s the same ole, same ole. I got an alumni letter that amounted to “We are looking for a new celebrity chancellor who has the right name.” They need to look for an educator with university experience and a passion for students, not someone famous. But I bet they will just go with someone like Jr.
Love is not the primary descriptor of New Calvinists … arrogance is.
And to fit this thread into the topic of this post, we shouldn’t be surprised at the unloving mistreatment of faculty at SBC institutions.
Never underestimate the Arrogance of God’s Special Elect Pets.
It’s literally impossible to exaggerate.
Said CHRISTIAN GOP Activist:
1) Kept on using Pressler’s name in the firm as a Celebrity lead in.
2) Supplied Pressler with a steady stream of Young Male Assistants/Interns (who worked out of Pressler’s home).
3) While out-Phelpsing Fred Phelps with pious GAWD H8S FAGS.
Sure sounds CHRISTIAN to me!
How about you?
My husband’s term is: “The Beautiful People”. Same idea. The Lookers. The Ones to Look At. But sure don’t want to engage with them. Shallow. Empty. Pointless. Meaningless. “White-washed tombs” – Jesus’ term.
More like 10 % in England nowadays.
Karen’s stated reason for leaving is her differences with her bosses on “how” to carry out “The” great commission, she is an English professor, she understands that there must be an objective reality of what God gave in Jesus and Holy Spirit and Holy Scripture.
SEBTS bosses have a small commission (an irrelevant and poisonously misleading mini-salvation) which they happen to call “a” or “the” “Great” one. Is this the same place that wasn’t good for Ashford or am I mixing everything up?
All kudos to Karen for being at two disaster zones running, and for treasuring language whether she’s allowed to or not.
Oracle at Delphi,
What I’m stating is without prejudice to these reports of mishandling against the Buck family. A faculty needs more than one (mostly) kindly person on it.
Oracle, please can you point to detail on this conference and its relations with the PCA, it is something I have become very interested in of late (because of probable parallels).
In my interpretation of Jeremy Carrette’s interpretation of Michel Foucault’s interpretation, accepting individuals’ own intuitive ways of doing religion (a sort of toned down “exomologesis”) has been abolished, and replaced by demanding verbiage and self “incrimination” based on presumptuously judging appearances (without an “orientation” we are denied a place in society) (a sort of hyped up “exagoreusis”).
Foucault traces this back to before Augustine (and Roland Barthes highlights the role of Loyola in industrialising confession) but I have found the trend gaining catastrophic speed since my young day. Hence “coming out” something less shameful than any of the meanings of “gay”, coming out “drag queen”, coming out in the new “catechumenate” or “synod”, etc.
Martha Nussbaum has also written extensively about this sort of thing. A kind of compulsory “self-othering”. I wonder if Nate Collins is trying to turn the dial back to a healthier setting by stealth and tact. In other words, it should “matter” less, how or if we speak, because our meanings invite respect.
ishy,
Yup… and violates a primary principle that Christ teaches
Jeffrey Chalmers,
OPPs.. my response was supposed to be to Max’s, which is just under yours..
Tom Parker,
Hi Tom. I’m not making any predictions in that space. I can be pretty darned irritating, all on my own! LOL
Eric Bonetti,
Michael in UK,
Michael in UK,
Oracle at Delphi,
Further to aforegoing, I’ve come up with:
https://sbcvoices.com/there-should-be-peace-a-response-to-tom-ascol/
https://medium.com/christian-intellectual/christian-you-must-learn-to-distinguish-friend-from-foe-31b2420ebc05
https://spiritualfriendship.org/2017/07/20/a-response-to-rosaria-butterfield/
The people I knew had a very simple idea: to set a chaste example without undergoing “reparative therapy”. Perhaps KSP had hoped Collins would take that route and added to her prior statement when it became clear Hill was muddying the waters. But she needs to get clearer about why other individuals may want to relate with her.
Butterfield (who has the PCA connections) appears not to have abandoned the essentialist usages of language commonplace in her previous milieu (where they in fact were earlier tutored in this fallacy by the evangelicals). That is why she can’t see beyond sentimentality, to the providential meanings of Holy Scripture and the unvetoed Holy Spirit gifts in the orphans and widows. She needs to fall silent until she has studied this.
I agree strongly with Libolt’s and Leake’s criticism of Ascol and Hill for playing fast and loose.
I hadn’t been specifically aware of “sides A, B and X” though I knew of these so called “positions” existing. Providential teaching on Holy Scripture and Holy Spirit meanings won’t get anywhere with so many (essentialist) saboteurs and their acolytes on every hand.
We are all far lonelier now than three years ago. One day a lot of populace will turn round to the cessationists and ask them why they didn’t tell them about providence.
You are correct. It’s the same place.
Michael in UK,
Done more digging. I see some commenters accuse “Revoice” of imposing the same essentialist / imperialistic psychoanalytical script as themselves. I think the phrase is best seen as a paradoxical expression.
My acquaintances had personal experience of attracting those who have previously been firmly told they “were gay”, to the virtue of situational chastity.
I haven’t checked out yet, whether the organisers had tried to “rationalise” anything about Christ.