The Controversy Over Josh Butler’s Book, Beautiful Union, Rightly Embarrasses TGC’s The (Tim) Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics, The Gospel Coalition Editorial Staff, and Various Theobros and Theogals

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“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” CS Lewis

I love the term “moral busybodies.”


Good night! Perhaps you missed the hoopla surrounding Joshn Butler’s book, Beautiful Union, on Twitter, and I will try to explain it to you. Let’s start with the book’s full title, which will begin to describe the controversy for many readers. Beautiful Union: How God’s Vision for Sex Points Us to the Good, Unlocks the True, and (Sort of) Explains Everything.

Sex “sort of” explains everything? Everything refers to the gospel, which some of these folks enjoy defining in unusual ways. The definition of this author is so bizarre that I would never be able to share it with a confirmation class studying “What is the Gospel.” So The Gospel Coalition, the Tim Keller for Cultural Apologetics, and a bunch of the typical hangers-on endorsed the book. Some of the involved theobros and theogals are claiming, “Whoops, I never really read it.” This answers for me how so many books have so many busy endorsers. The endorsers just don’t read it. This case involved some of the current names du jour who hang out in these rarefied circles.

I’m sure some of you are thinking, “Why would Tim Keller get involved with this mess?” Josh Butler, until this weekend, was one of the Fellows of The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. His name was quickly removed from the list of Fellows, which TGC calls the list of” the inaugural class of 26 fellows,” but today, there are only 25. Count them. Also, he is OUT as a speaker for TGC23.

So what happened? Forgive the graphic nature of the following. I call it the “problem of the hospitable vagina.”

The Gospel Coalition has removed “Sex Won’t Save You (Bit It Point to One Who Will.” Don’t go looking for it. It was removed quickly with a sort of explanation from TGC.

The Christian Post wrote The Gospel Coalition Takes Down Sex Won’t Save You; Rick Warren calls for apology.  TGC editor’s note says the adapted book excerpt ‘lacked sufficient context. No, it didn’t. That’s why endorsers are becoming former endorsers. Josh Butler, until last week, was one of the rising stars of Keller’s Center mentioned above. His article for TGC was headlined by a banner touting the Keller Center.

Butler then quotes Taylor Swift and asserts that “sex is an icon of Christ and the church.”

…What happens in the honeymoon suite afterward that speaks to the life you were made for with God.”

Get ready for Butler’s “gospel bombshell” (his words.)

sex is an icon of salvation” and uses the sexual act to describe our relationship to Christ: “Generosity and hospitality are both embodied in the sexual act.

The husband pours out his generosity in an orgasm.

And what deeper form of self-giving is there than sexual union where the husband pours out his very presence not only upon but within his wife?

The wife is hospitable, preparing a place for that “generosity.”

what deeper form of hospitality is there than sexual union where the wife welcomes her husband into the sanctuary of her very self?

At this point, I had to pick myself off the floor and wondered if I was the only one banging my head on the kitchen table and scaring the pugs. This is not the gospel, theobro. What were you thinking? Wait…maybe I don’t want to know. Butler admits to a checkered past involving sex, and it appears he is not over it yet.

Butler, who pastors Redemption Church Tempe, starts out by confessing that he used to “look to sex for salvation” before realizing that “idolizing sex results in slavery.” As he recounts a series of failed romantic adventures

Redemption Church, beware. There is something not right about this.

Baptist News posted a great article: How viewing sex as an icon leads to the pornification of Christian women and the church as Christ’s bride and added further assessment of Butler’s ill-chosen allegory.

Butler’s metaphor depends upon the binary view that during sex, men are always active and never can be passive, while women are always passive and never can be active. In this view, men always should initiate and play the dominant role in sex, and women always should be welcoming of their partner’s sexual advances, avoiding acts that would require dominance, such as initiating sex or rejecting a husband’s sexual advances.

For Butler, men’s sexual roles should be viewed as representative of the power Christ has to enter and control the church. In contrast, women are representative of the church, which is constantly anticipating Christ’s presence within her.

Strange enough for you? This goes deeper.

What does this say about TGC’s perspicuity in choosing Fellows for the Center, and why did Tim Keller lend his name to this ill-thought enterprise? What does this say about the editorial oversight at TGC?

Sheila Gregoire followed this mess carefully.

The Keller Center doesn’t really review the theobros they choose as Fellows.

The Keller Center’s resources equip Christians with answers developed in collaboration between leaders in the academy, marketplace, and church. We have begun to develop creative and accessible apologetics content on platforms such as TikTok and YouTube, where many young people first encounter arguments against Scripture and faith.

Yep, you can spin your wheels and sign up to get some fabulous teaching from this Center. They are even going to have “microevents” at TGC23. But, I wonder how much it costs.


The Gospel Coalition editorial staff and leaders don’t spend much time reviewing what they publish on their website, and the Board of Directors and Council, all men, appear to be figureheads.

I have been following this crowd since I started writing 14 years ago. There are many people in the above lists who were fans of Mark Driscoll, who taught weird things about sex, Doug Wilson (they may still post things by him who had a penetrate and conquer brouhaha,) and then there was CJ Mahaney, whose church is still in good standing with the SBC. I suspect that some of these folks still secretly like all of them.

Here is a repeat link to their quasi-apology.

To our fellows and our readers, please forgive us. The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics is a new effort by TGC, and we are still learning how to work with our directors and our fellows to produce content that will serve our readers in a way that is trusted and wise. To ensure greater accountability with our fellows, we will develop better review systems for our work together. We will also review our publication processes more broadly at TGC and develop plans to ensure greater accountability to you, our readers.

TGC staff theogals remained silent.

In other words, TGC is in charge of the Keller Center, and they didn’t really review Butler’s article because, after all, he was a fellow. I don’t buy this. What annoys me is that there were no female editorial staff members who objected to the article posting, as far as we know. As things still stand, they are still quiet. Does anyone carefully read these articles before they are posted?

Sheila Gregoire found the following endorsements of Butler’s book, and I question whether or not they read it.

I have often thought that some endorsers stick their names on books because they are part of a particular evangelical celebrity group. I think that may be true for the following. Let’s start with a theogal who writes quite a bit at TGC, Jen Pollock Michel. She was literally in tears from the beauty of this book. What?? Remind me not to read anything that brings her to tears in the future. This is nonsense.

Here’s one by Collin Hansen, who has been around since Mark Driscoll got play at TGC. He’s the Editor in Chief at TGC. He wrote the book on the new Calvinist movement: Young Restless and Reformed. Now he is old and writing over-the-top endorsements for his circle of New/Now Old Calvinists. He says that Butler’s book is good biblical theology regarding God’s design for sex because “large numbers of folks will turn to Christ because of the church’s view of sex?” Folks, did he really read it? is this just more nonsense to fill his review?

Sheila Gregoire found the following “unendorsement,” along with an admission of not really reading the book. I told you so.

I am frankly surprised that Rich Villodas crossed over into TGC endorsement territory since he is part of the Missio Alliance and also wrote a book with Ann Voskamp, who TGC appears to view with a jaundiced eye. He admits to reading only 25-30% of the book and didn’t read the section that was posted at TGC. He also admits that what Butler wrote is dangerous, even if there were some nice things said in the book. I’m glad he apologized. He should have. His admission that he had not really read the book is essential. I believe that this is true for many endorsers. I would venture to guess that some endorsers don’t read any of it.

Deenae Pierre has done the same and expressed her concerns that TGC posts articles that specifically harm women. If you click on the picture, it will take you to the tweet, where you can read it more clearly. Click the tweet again for an expansion. Her husband is a TGC Council member.

Sheila Gregoire was quoted in Butler’s book, and she is not pleased. Here is a link to her response.

This is one of the dangers of overspiritualizing everything, and why writing about sex like this is not a good idea. If you’re going to write about sex, then get the parts about sex right.

Finally, listen to NT Wright for some rational thinking.

I’m sure many of you are sincerely glad that you missed the recent Twitter storm. However, I thought you might like to know what is happening at The Gospel Coalition, which owns the Keller Center of Apologetics, etc. Once again, I tend to believe that the young, restless, and reformed group are now old but haven’t grown up. They publish piece after piece throughout the years, which have the power to hurt women. They then remove many posts and rarely say a word about it.

Recently, I discovered Ask NT Wright Anything Podcast at Premier Insight. Here is one he did about women in the church. I needed to hear something that reflected on issues calmly and reasonably.

Enough said!

 

Comments

The Controversy Over Josh Butler’s Book, Beautiful Union, Rightly Embarrasses TGC’s The (Tim) Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics, The Gospel Coalition Editorial Staff, and Various Theobros and Theogals — 200 Comments

  1. This guy is messed up on so many levels ……
    I can shoot him down just with a brief general comparison to a human groom and bride:
    As a man, he can only understand and describe sex from a man’s experience.
    Jesus is the groom (man) the church is is bride (woman). Does he realize that, as a man, he is describing things from Jesus’ perspective???
    And the honeymoon suite thing…… yeah, for a virgin bride that can be uncomfortable, even painful.

    This stuff came out of a really twisted mind.

  2. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. Hence this book. These guys spend so much time focusing on the stupid things that others with different views have that they forget that they can be equally as stupid. Enough said…

  3. Where were all these guys when I was 15 and needed something a little more engaging in my CCD class?

  4. Is nothing sacred?

    They had temple prostitutes back in the old days, in some of those goyischer lands, bringing men closer to the gods. Or so it was thought. And the practice brought in the tithes.

    Sells books too.

    Look, Mr. Butler, Song of Solomon has already been written, and we don’t need you to interpret it.

  5. I think this is a better title:

    “Beautiful Union: A Whole Dang Book that Nobody Asked For about a Male-Centric View of Sex that Points to a Phallic Obsession, Unlocks a Whole New Level of Creepy, and (sort of) suggests Writer Is No Good In Bed but Doesn’t Know It.”

  6. This is what happens when you turn a bunch of sex-crazed, immature, know-it-all NeoCal complementarians loose on the church. The new reformers keep talking themselves into a deeper hole. The old guys who endorse them need to be unendorsed; they should be censoring these characters not encouraging them. Female believers ensnared by New Calvinism have enough problems without unspiritual juvenile teachings like this adding to their misery.

  7. I prophesy that “Beautiful Union” will shortly become a “Beautiful Onion” as the book is relegated to the Christian-porn trash heap, to join Driscoll’s “Real Marriage” and assorted other titles that should have never been written.

  8. The Gospel Coalition has included any number of dubious theodudes. Unfortunately, I’m not surprised that many of those who endorsed Josh Butler’s book hadn’t bothered to read it thoroughly, if at all. While TGC might have started with good intentions (I’ve met several of the pastors on the Council and/or read their books), it quickly slid down a slippery slope by drifting away from solid, biblical teaching. The Butler controversy reminds me of Mark Driscoll deciding to resurrect his earlier, explicit sermons on the Song of Solomon.

  9. Hi Max, couldn’t agree with you more. Female believers in neo-Cal churches are third-class citizens, or worse.

  10. Old Timer: The Butler controversy reminds me of Mark Driscoll deciding to resurrect his earlier, explicit sermons on the Song of Solomon.

    Driscoll’s SoS sermons pale in comparison to his “Real Marriage” book … whew, that thing approaches pornographic! I figure Mr. Butler read it and endeavored to top it.

  11. What got me about this book is how it’s described as “How God’s Vision for Sex Points Us to the Good, Unlocks the True, and (Sort of) Explains Everything.” And then I read the excerpt.

    I’m not going to comment about the way wives are treated, except to note that this is just a more flowery version of Mark Driscoll’s “p*n*s homes” or Doug Wilson’s “A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes, plants. A woman receives, surrenders, accepts.”

    What I do want to comment about is how this “gospel,” this “theology” excludes those of us who are not married (or whose marriages, while legal, are not recognized by some Christians). I mean, think about it. Go read that subtitle again, it’s cast in how sex “(sort of) explains everything.” Well, what does that do for those of us who are, from an Evangelical point of view, not supposed to have sex because we’re not married?

    And it’s not like we’re some tiny group of people out here. While I do not know the percentages for adult not-married men (single, divorced, widowed), I do know that slightly over 50 percent of adult American women are single, divorced or widowed. That is a LOT of people! But *wow*, it never seemed to occur to anyone involved in this, whether the author, Josh Butler, his agent (said to be a woman), his publisher (Waterbrook Multnomah, a division of Penguin USA), The Gospel Coalition, The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics, or Tim Keller that the exclusion of around half the adults in the USA from this “theology” or “gospel” might be problematic.

    But am I truly surprised? Those of you who know me know that I’ve been a one note trumped for quite a long time now about the way single adults are seen and treated in the churches. You can add to that the way that complementarianism (something pushed by the TGC crowd; Keller was part of the founding of CBMW) does absolutely nothing for us not-married women.

    I speculated elsewhere that this book was actually for a large but relatively limited audience: (male) leaders of complementarian churches and their (male) followers, who are looking for ways to prop themselves up through this crazy theology. At the same time, this book would tell their wives and women in general that our purpose is to, uhm, “lie back and think of England” while our husbands act out Christ to the church in the marital bed. (I can’t believe I wrote that.)

    Personally, I should have expected this to come out of this particular guy, as he pastors a church over in Tempe. And why yes, I picketed his church in November 2021 after he wrote a completely shallow article about deconstruction for TGC. He basically said there was no excuse for not going back to church, even for “church hurt,” we just have to gut it up and go back. I don’t think he wanted to understand how much hurt the churches have poured out on people. But once I figured out that the writer of the “sex gospel” was Josh Butler, so many pieces fell into place.

    *sigh* This has been an extremely rough day for me. I had to put my kitty Nicki to sleep this morning after she basically collapsed overnight. I have to go back to work tomorrow. Thinking about this other stuff has, in a weird way, been a welcome distraction from the sorrow I feel from losing my feline buddy of the last decade.

  12. *sigh* This has been an extremely rough day for me. I had to put my kitty Nicki to sleep this morning after she basically collapsed overnight. I have to go back to work tomorrow. Thinking about this other stuff has, in a weird way, been a welcome distraction from the sorrow I feel from losing my feline buddy of the last decade.

    I am so very sorry about your kitty…..

  13. It didn’t take long for TGC to throw Josh under the bus.
    He was only agreeing with their doctrine, raising the bar, and applying it to sex.
    I don’t buy it that so many of them didn’t read the book. They gave him a huge advance and made it one of the first books to come out of their shiny new Tim Keller Centre. I don’t believe they were that careless. I think more of them read it and agreed with it than will admit.

  14. 1. In Amazon, it is already #1 new release. The book will be available on April 11, 2023.

    What string do you have to pull to be #1 new release even before the book is available?

    2. Not only the yuk writing but the premise of the book is smack of fertility cult theology.

    When TGC was doubling down claim “out of context”, I downloaded and read Chapter 1 from TGC website. It was an eye opener.

    Josh tried to form a theology through sex instead of the other way round.

    From the introduction,

    The love of God is the endgame of this book, for it is
    what the icon points to. God designed sex to reveal his love for us in technicolor.

    This is the table of content (“Order of Ceremony”)

    Order of Ceremony

    Dearly Beloved | ix
    Introduction: Of Trampolines and Icons | xi

    I. The Beauty of Sex
    1. Sex as Salvation | 3
    2. Why Sunsets Are Beautiful | 21
    3. Lover, Beloved, Love | 34
    4. Wedding on a Mountain | 48
    5. Brace to Be Born | 62

    II. When God Says No
    6. Civil War Amputees | 81
    7. The Great Exchange | 93
    8. Sex Isn’t Cheap | 111
    9. Cheating on God | 124
    10. Welcome the Children | 137

    III. A Greater Vision
    11. Splitting the Adam | 153
    12. Triune Symphony| 169
    13. A River Runs Through It | 186
    14. Royal Wedding | 203
    15. The End of the World | 215

    Conclusion: The Divine Flame | 221

    After reading chapter 1, all I think of is this from Peter

    “[Paul’s] letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction
    2 Peter 3:16

    Dee if you want read Chapter one, I can email it to you.

  15. Sowre-Sweet Dayes: 1. In Amazon, it is already #1 new release. The book will be available on April 11, 2023.

    What string do you have to pull to be #1 new release even before the book is available?

    To answer your question, probably based on number of pre-orders.

    I’d suggest skipping “Beautiful Union” and waiting a week for Gregiore’s newest book, “She Deserves Better: Raising Girls to Resist Toxic Teachings on Sex, Self, and Speaking Up.”

  16. Dee wrote: The husband pours out his generosity in an orgasm.

    Quote from book: And what deeper form of self-giving is there than sexual union where the husband pours out his very presence not only upon but within his wife?

    I laughed out loud. So for all these years men weren’t really complaining about how condoms decrease their pleasure (while protecting their female partners from STDs and pregnancy). No, men actually think that condoms interfere with their “generosity.” Thanks, theobros, for letting us all know that a man’s orgasm is purely self-giving and there’s nothing in it for them! (I would have put my entire paragraph in sarcasm font, if it existed)

  17. Mara R: I don’t buy it that so many of them didn’t read the book. They gave him a huge advance and made it one of the first books to come out of their shiny new Tim Keller Centre. I don’t believe they were that careless. I think more of them read it and agreed with it than will admit.

    Even bad press is publicity, so marketing. Scheme. $$$.

  18. Mara R: He was only agreeing with their doctrine, raising the bar, and applying it to sex.

    Power, sex, and money. The authoritarian trifecta. For their “gospel”, which is what the Coalition is all about. The “high calling” of the lowest values possible in the totally committed to self-indulgence life that makes a joke of and shatters authentic relationships. Cheap and shallow.

    OTOH, there is the vow of humility, chastity, and poverty. For the Gospel. For love of God and fellow humans. For the higher calling of Eternal purpose during our temporary life on Earth before Jesus returns. Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus.

    “Therefore since we are surrounded by such a great crowd of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders, and the sin that so easily entangles, let us run with perseverance the race set out for us.” Hebrews 12, preceded by the Hall of Faith, documenting those seeking a higher calling in Hebrews 11.

    Before the Reformation, chastity for the sake of a life of godly service was spiritually superior. Post Reformation, marriage and family are revered as higher spirituality. Both are insane extremism that marginalize the other, IMHO. Arrogance. Divisive.

  19. I don’t understand how a person shows “love,” let alone the love of Christ, by using another person to satisfy an extremely urgent physical urge.

  20. Regarding endorsements of books that have not been read, Dallas Willard said that the most often told lie in academia was, “yes, I’ve read that book.” Evidently that also is the case in the celebrity/church industrial complex as well.

  21. CMT,

    I read her book. I was proud that I didn’t throw up. “Incredibly selfish” to choose, say, sleeping over servicing the husband’s genital urge.

    To be fair to Ms. Wray Gregoire, she may not even know she’s doing it.

  22. And we are suppose to respect/listen to these clowns?
    The longer I live, the more I see how shallow/superficial so much of fundamentalism/evangelicalism/ NeoCal is.. Also, the longer I live, and more I understand the cultural context of Christ’s example is, the more I see the wisdom of not listening to “men” and instead attempt to follow Christ’s example….which, leads to a very different outcome than what we continue to played out here on TWW and much of current American culture

  23. Jeffrey Chalmers: wisdom of not listening to “men” and instead attempt to follow Christ’s example….which, leads to a very different outcome than what we continue to played out here on TWW and much of current American culture

    Now, if we could just get church folks (in both pulpit & pew) to do that! Following personalities instead of the person of Christ just ain’t cutting it!

  24. CynthiaW.:
    I don’t understand how a person shows “love,” let alone the love of Christ, by using another person to satisfy an extremely urgent physical urge.

    With theology as ammo to back that up.

    How much “theology” is simply an argument couched in Godspeak or Gospelspeak so me and my demographic can demand and get what we want? Dare we mention Theobros on this one?

  25. Sowre-Sweet Dayes: Josh tried to form a theology through sex

    New Calvinists sell books by sensationalizing their theology to attract a crowd. Looks like they are running out of ideas. Their books are starting to show up at yard sales … I hope it’s a sign that the NeoCal movement is winding down.

  26. Ava Aaronson: How much “theology” is simply an argument couched in Godspeak or Gospelspeak so me and my demographic can demand and get what we want?

    Look what happened to Israel when they got what they demanded … “Give us a King!” … “Release Barabbas!” … etc. Today’s successful church leaders ask the pew what they want and then get out in front to lead them. That has been the strategy of seeker-friendly church, mega-mania, and other movements that appeal to shallow American churchgoers.

  27. “To our fellows and our readers, please forgive us. The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics is a new effort by TGC, and we are still learning how to work with our directors and our fellows to produce content that will serve our readers in a way that is trusted and wise. To ensure greater accountability with our fellows, we will develop better review systems for our work together. We will also review our publication processes more broadly at TGC and develop plans to ensure greater accountability to you, our readers.”

    “Oopsie… mistakes were made… we good?”

    What exactly does a learning curve have to do with vetting something to reasonable standards, especially with a lofty title behind the purported initiative? How about dealing with the fact of people can assess your judgment from this as well as other things?

  28. What a shock that endorsements might not be a heartfelt thing but perhaps on occasion be a quid pro quo system of selling things. Maybe we can chalk that one up to the learning curve as well rather than look at what obvious invitations might be.

  29. JDV:
    What a shock that endorsements might not be a heartfelt thing but perhaps on occasion be a quid pro quo system of selling things. Maybe we can chalk that one up to the learning curve as well rather than look at what obvious invitations might be.

    *implications

  30. Dan: Regarding endorsements of books that have not been read, Dallas Willard said that the most often told lie in academia was, “yes, I’ve read that book.” Evidently that also is the case in the celebrity/church industrial complex as well.

    Celebrity Christians endorse books to maintain their celebrity status. It’s necessary in the Christian Industrial Complex to stay visible and to hold position and power. It’s just part of the game of playing church, without experiencing the meek and humble Christ.

  31. JDV: “Oopsie… mistakes were made… we good?”

    New Calvinism is developing quite a track record of “Oopsies.” In a movement with so many narcissists, one of them is always opening his mouth and saying stupid stuff.

  32. Max,

    They can’t let the truth ( or even the Way the Truth and the Life) interfere with the cash flow.
    I don’t think this book is going to bring in the cash this whole cult was hoping for…. those ‘endorsements/unendorsements’ would look like a bad joke if they hadn’t been callously and carelessly done in Jesus’ name …… all for the love of money, power, and fame.

  33. Okay, some of y’all know I have a tendency to go off on tangents. My mind just goes to strange places sometimes, and it did it again. My letter to Pastor Josh:

    Dear Pastor Josh,
    If sex is representative of Christ and the church, why do animals have sex and what does it mean to and for them???
    Sincerely,
    One dumb farm girl.

  34. Max: This is what happens when you turn a bunch of sex-crazed, immature, know-it-all NeoCal complementarians loose on the church.

    I seriously question the depth of their MDiv classes.

  35. Jeffrey Chalmers: The longer I live, the more I see how shallow/superficial so much of fundamentalism/evangelicalism/ NeoCal is.. Also, the longer I live, and more I understand the cultural context of Christ’s example is, the more I see the wisdom of not listening to “men” and instead attempt to follow Christ’s example….which, leads to a very different outcome than what we continue to played out here on TWW and much of current American culture

    Great comment.

  36. JDV: “Oopsie… mistakes were made… we good?”
    What exactly does a learning curve have to do with vetting something to reasonable standards, especially with a lofty title behind the purported initiative? How about dealing with the fact of people can assess your judgment from this as well as other things?

    Well said!

  37. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Dear Pastor Josh,
    If sex is representative of Christ and the church, why do animals have sex and what does it mean to and for them???
    Sincerely,
    One dumb farm girl.

    I hadn’t thought about this angle.

  38. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: What I do want to comment about is how this “gospel,” this “theology” excludes those of us who are not married (or whose marriages, while legal, are not recognized by some Christians). I mean, think about it. Go read that subtitle again, it’s cast in how sex “(sort of) explains everything.” Well, what does that do for those of us who are, from an Evangelical point of view, not supposed to have sex because we’re not married?

    This is a critical comment. I agree with you. This theology leaves many behind.

  39. He’s not doing so well over here.

    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: 179,185 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
    173 in Christian Ethics

  40. It seems to be something of a thing amongst the Reformed at the moment. This is from The introduction to Iain Duguid’s commentary on the book (part of the the Reformed Expository Commentary series).
    “ The church has often done the same thing with sex. We have focused on all the ways in which the Bible tells us not to have sex, even adding some extra regulations of our own. The early and medieval church glorified virginity and celibacy as higher spiritual states than marriage. Yet when the woman in the Song dreams of her boyfriend, she does not imagine them sharing an inductive Bible study and praying together, but thinks about his kisses and caresses. It is precisely this desire that her community celebrates and rejoices in. Such thoughts are not aberrant and dirty, but good and right. Sex is not merely permissible under the proper circumstances; it is a wonderful and glorious gift in the context for which God designed it, which is within marriage. It is therefore good and right for us to long for it. After all, God himself crafted all the relevant body parts and the various biochemical reactions that make sex such fun. We should celebrate and rejoice in that fact! Even when our desires for sex are unable to be satisfied or are disordered in their object, the desire itself is something that God made good.”

  41. CynthiaW.,

    Which book? I know she has changed her thinking and publicly retracted/rewritten a lot of her older work for exactly this reason. I’ve found her more recent stuff really helpful personally. If there is still guilt based messages coming from that quarter that would be a huge bummer.

  42. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    I’m sorry, too…. truly. As a country/farm girl, I’ve experienced that sort of loss (dogs, mostly, but other animals , too.) so many times…… each of them different, some of them so special…… so many memories. One of my best buddies for a few years was and old stray, feral, crazy, yellow bob-tailed barn cat who just showed up one day. On rainy days, we would sit in the hayloft together and watch it rain. He was a character.

  43. dee,

    I just had a creepy thought…….. I’m having a hard time sorting through my thoughts and translating them into words …… but Butler, whether intentionally or not, puts a man in the place of Christ…….. giving the gift of salvation to his bride????

  44. Apparently he’s been saying these things for a couple of years now.
    “ As early as March 17 2021, on the Proven Ministries webshow, he was teaching them and working them out with host Shane O’Neill.

    Butler: The Bible is less prudish about its language than we are. You know, one bodily union (unintelligible) it’s actually describing what’s happening in the act. And historically that’s often been called like the ‘active’ and ‘passive’ roles in the equation, right? That on the male side of the equation has active role of penetrating one’s spouse, one’s bride. And then the female sex is kind of the passive/ receiving your spouse within yourself.

    And I think that’s significant when we look to our union with Christ and the nature of salvation
    is while there’s a mutual self-giving between Christ and the church, there’s also a sense where
    Christ penetrates his bride with the seed of his word, with the presence of his Spirit. And the bride here is a corporate figure. It’s like the church cosmically, like the whole church whatever. ……
    “ Butler: “Yeah, it’s in 1 John. I have to go back and find the exact, but it talks about us being conceived by the Sperma of God. (Ah Yes) Yes. You know, but it’s literally the word ‘seed’, which in Greek and Hebrew, like, seed can refer both to like plant seed or human seed. And so, when Jesus is telling the parable of the four soils and the planting of the seed like it’s the Sperma, you know? (Ah, Ok)

    But then it’s also the word that’s used for human and so in the context of 1st John there, the imagery is birth imagery- that we have been conceived by the sperm of the seed of God, which is in reference to I believe his word. It’s been a while since I’ve like that passage. But yeah, (Man that’s helpful)”

  45. Rich Villodas’ apology is a little masterclass in how to apologize. He actually admits his embarrassing mistake (not reading the book) and commits to not doing something like that again. He further acknowledges that his endorsement could help promote dangerous theology. It’s refreshing to see a church leader actually admit he’s wrong about something. Also, IMO, it’s not a huge mistake, and Villodas’ apology is appropriately short and non-flowery. I think if a person can apologize for small stuff like this, it’s likely he can apologize for bigger things if need be. I have never experienced that from a pastor that I can recall.

  46. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): This stuff came out of a really twisted mind.

    It really is creepy.
    To me, the whole ‘Church as bride of Christ’ metaphor is creepy.
    I wouldn’t have dared and admit this to anyone at one time.

  47. Max: I prophesy that “Beautiful Union” will shortly become a “Beautiful Onion” as the book is relegated to the Christian-porn trash heap

    Remember those who HAVE to buy it because it’s CHRISTIAN(TM)!

    “You used to love reading science fiction by Orson Scott Card and Ursula K. Le Guin, but now you read Left Behind.”
    — Internet Monk, “Selling Jesus by the Pound”
    https://imonk.blog/2011/09/22/selling-jesus-by-the-pound-2/

  48. dee:
    Ted,

    Ah, the old Song of Solomon interpretation. Reminds me of Mark Driscoll.

    “Deep Throat” Driscoll?
    “Bee Jay” Driscoll?

  49. Lowlandseer:
    He’s not doing so well over here.

    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: 179,185 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
    173 in Christian Ethics

    Shoulda forked over 200 grand to ResultSource.

  50. CynthiaW.: “Incredibly selfish” to choose, say, sleeping over servicing the husband’s genital urge.

    You know where you only find that attitude/trope?
    Outside of Christianese?
    PORNOGRAPHY.

    Where the female exists only to service the Urrrrges in the Man’s Aaaaaareas. Anyhow, Anywhen.

  51. Susan: Quote from book: And what deeper form of self-giving is there than sexual union where the husband pours out his very presence not only upon but within his wife?

    Filling his Quiverfull breeding stock with his Precious Bodily Fluids and Sacred Testosterone.

  52. Butler left Imago Dei Portland in 2018 for “new season” of pastoring in Arizona:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20211024183236/https://tempe.redemptionaz.com/jrbintro/

    The above link records Josh Ryan Butler’s elaborate tale how he had a dream that the city of Portland, Oregon was under missile attack. How his wife Holly (whom he says is a prophet [insert joke here]) and God let him know that he was to resign from his Portland church and move to Arizona to pastor at ‘Redemption Tempe’.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20211024191940/https://tempe.redemptionaz.com/further-info-and-faq-on-josh-bulter-joining-us/

    “We are excited to have Josh and Holly Butler move to Arizona to be with us at Redemption Tempe . . . Two years ago, Riccardo had the opportunity, along with several other Protestant Pastors, to take a trip to Rome to meet with Pope Francis. The experience with the Pope was amazing, but it was Riccardo’s more in-depth time with Josh and Holly that he remembers the most . . . Since then, Josh and Riccardo kept in touch over the phone”.

    “FAQ:
    What will be Josh’s role?”
    “Josh will help share a great deal of leadership with Riccardo. He will be the Pastor of Mission and Spiritual Formation, which means he will cast vision and oversee ministry, pastors, and leaders in those areas of our church. Josh will also share the load of preaching, teaching, and leadership development”.

    “Is this Riccardo’s exit plan?”
    “Quite the opposite . . . Riccardo will continue to lead, preach, and cast vision for Redemption Tempe, he will also be able to focus on pastoral oversight”.

    [Riccardo Stewart did leave soon afterward, and he’s been a football coach at the University of Nevada Reno for several years now]

  53. CMT,

    The Great Sex Rescue. And people have different reactions. What’s helpful for some isn’t for others, and that’s fine.

  54. Headless Unicorn Guy: You know where you only find that attitude/trope?
    Outside of Christianese?
    PORNOGRAPHY.

    Headless, my thoughts exactly.

    One wonders if the neo-Cal youth get their ‘inspiration’ from ‘sources’ other than ‘The Song of Solomon’ . . . from the looks of things, I too would bet on it.

    Well, I guess if a young lamb is to be converted to a wolf who preys on the innocent, only the most inappropriate training would suffice. . . . makes you wonder what the course names are at the neo-Cal seminaries

    Misogyny takes many shapes, but this one is gothic in its creepy-ness.

    Good call, Headless

  55. Headless Unicorn Guy: Where the female exists only to service the Urrrrges in the Man’s Aaaaaareas. Anyhow, Anywhen.

    Yes, and only his. If a wife has any sexual desires that aren’t convenient for the man, she’s “just driven by her hormones.”

  56. Final comment from me. I have been perplexed by TGC’s association with and promotion of this man because he quite clearly promotes (in my opinion) views that don’t accord with Scripture. So I looked up references relating to the Song of Solomon in Beal and Carson’s book “Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament” and here is what I found.
    In commenting on Mark 3:4 where Jesus heals the man with the withered hand, they refer to Solomon 5:4 and state –
    “Mark again represents Jesus as upholding the law. J.D.M. Derrett (1984a), on the basis of several shared terms, sees here a threefold midrash on Deut.30:15, the reversal of the covenant all curses of the powerless “hand” in Deut.28:20,32 and the promises in Isaiah 56:3-5 to the Sabbatn-observing and covenant-keeping eunuch (“hand” being a euphemism for male genitalia[Song 5:4; Isaiah 5:]) who is not to see himself as a “dry tree”, but rather will be given “a hand” in God’s house and within God’s walls.”

    On that interpretation Song 5:4 reads “my beloved put his male genitalia by the hole of the door, and my bowels were moved for him”.

    And Iain Duguid’s assessment of 5:3-4 -“ This doesn’t even rise to the level of “Not tonight, dear; I have a headache.” Is this the same woman who in chapter 1 was willing to brave the midday sun and the scorn of the shepherd boys just to be with her lover? Is this the girl who was fainting with love in chapter 2? Is this the woman who summoned the wide winds to blow on the oasis of her love in the previous chapter? Now it seems that she is quite content to leave him outside in the cold and rain rather than make the slightest effort to get out of her comfortable bed. As one writer has pointed out, “The tragic opposite of burning love is not necessarily fierce hate: it can be a simple bored indifference to the desires and needs of the loved one.”
    There is presumably a reason for this coldness and indifference on her part, though the poet doesn’t record the details. We don’t hear of a knockdown, drag-out fight in which she throws a plate at his head, then slams the door in his face, and then bursts into tears. But there is something going on here, something to which she seems perhaps to be responding in a passive-aggressive way, rather than its simply being a matter of laziness or apathy. Instead of seeing sex as a beautiful gift that she can give to serve her spouse, the woman seems to be using it as a weapon against him, a way of punishing him.
    Even then, the man makes a final attempt to bridge the gap from his side by reaching an arm through the peephole in the door (Song 5:4). It was an attempt that was always likely to fail given any reasonably designed locking system, but he at least made the effort to reach out to her, in spite of her coldness. For her part, she is once again a locked garden, as she was in chapter 4. But now, that is no longer a positive assessment of her situation. Perhaps she simply wanted to make him beg for a while.”
    In other words, it’s the woman who is to blame.

    Is there no end to their dangerous nonsense?

  57. Muff Potter:
    To me, the whole ‘Church as bride of Christ’ metaphor is creepy.

    Yeah. it is hard to wrap your head around a metaphor based on social practices and customs that haven’t existed in most of the world for centuries……. when a man saw a girl he liked and made a business arrangement for marriage with her pater-daddy, basically bought his bride (though in Israel, a girl was allowed to opt out). (Hmmm, “whosoever will”?)
    This is very rudimentary, but:
    The church/bridegroom comparison point was, Jesus paid the ultimate price for His Church. And He didn’t stop there. He washed us of our sins, white as snow, like a bride in a pristine white gown. And, someday, Jesus will come for his people and take us to His Father’s house – like a Jewish bridegroom would come for his bride to take her to his father’s house.

    I get it, but I still have to pause and think, and I’ve been neck deep in this stuff my whole life.
    When I was an adolescent, it made no sense at all…. and no adults could explain it to my satisfaction.

  58. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I mean, think about it. Go read that subtitle again, it’s cast in how sex “(sort of) explains everything.” Well, what does that do for those of us who are, from an Evangelical point of view, not supposed to have sex because we’re not married?

    I was contemplating the same thing when I looked at the photos of those on “The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics.” Pastor Butler, prior to being unceremoniously dumped from the group by those who endorsed his book, then unendorsed it, had his photo right next to Sam Allberry’s photo. Allberry is, for those not familiar with him, the same-sex attracted British man whose star has been on the rise in the Neo-cal world over the last few years. Since Sam reportedly doesn’t act on his same-sex attractions, does he still get pointed to Jesus?

  59. dee: I seriously question the depth of their MDiv classes.

    How deep could they be with folks like Bruce Ware teaching them?! SBC seminarians are swimming in shallow water. New Calvinism is one mile wide and one inch deep.

  60. The entire episode makes me ill; the excerpt themselves, the reviews that were lies, and TGC’s response. Christians?!

  61. “I’m sure some of you are thinking, “Why would Tim Keller get involved with this mess?””

    In my humble, but accurate, opinion, Christendom thinks way too highly of Tim Keller. Just because someone is educated, articulate, and highly respected, doesn’t mean he has anything to say. I heard him in a Q&A period after a speaking engagement when a young man essentially asked “What must I do to be saved?” … Keller stumbled through an answer without presenting the Gospel (the real one) to the poor soul.

  62. Headless Unicorn Guy: dee:
    Ted,

    Ah, the old Song of Solomon interpretation. Reminds me of Mark Driscoll.

    “Deep Throat” Driscoll?

    Yes, I think the bottom line is to make money. Sex sells. It worked for Driscoll. And he is trying to do it again. So maybe they want their own non-Driscoll version.

    Also Sheila Gregoire’s more egalitarian books, blogs, and tweets are going like gangbusters in Evangelical circles. Perhaps they are wanting to put out their “Me Tarzan, you jane” version in more poetic terms to fight against what she’s doing. Because liberating women from the dudebros abusive and oppressive teaching needs some sort of answer besides, “Sheila’s an uppity woman who isn’t saying things right.”

  63. Mara R: I think the bottom line is to make money. Sex sells. It worked for Driscoll. And he is trying to do it again. So maybe they want their own non-Driscoll version.

    At one time, Driscoll was a prominent member of the NeoCal tribe. He was a darling of the movement, even with his narcissistic behavior, potty-mouth, and porno sermons/books. But when the potato became too hot to handle, they dropped him. When his liabilities exceeded his assets, it became “Driscoll who?” The NeoCal elite will distance themselves from Butler, too.

  64. Jerome: which means he will cast vision

    Isn’t this “vision casting” stuff getting really old by now? And really annoying?

    Who talks like that, apart maybe from mega pastors and management consultants?

    Anytime anyone uses that phrase anywhere they should be laughed out of the room!

  65. When a coyote is caught in the teeth of a steel trap, it will chew its leg off to escape. I bet a lot of NeoCal women ensnared by “the beauty of complementarity” are about ready to do that right now.

  66. Kristin Kobe Dumez has a very good article on how endorsements work in academic, trade, and christian publishing. (Surprise: christian publishing does not have the highest standard of integrity here. Not surprised)

    As it is, she is very generous and sympathetic in what she writes – more so than these guys deserve.

    After reading a number of her posts, I have to admit that she calling herself an evangelical is much better than most of evangelicalism deserves.

  67. Gus,

    Thank you for the link. I was once asked to endorse a book I knew I wouldn’t have time to read thoroughly, so I didn’t. It didn’t seem right even though I knew the person.

  68. Todd Wilhelm,

    Okay. That clears things up for me. I couldn’t figure out whether the guy was tryin’ to rock some kind of cave man thing or an Einstein, minus the IQ.

  69. Lowlandseer: He’s not doing so well over here.

    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: 179,185 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
    173 in Christian Ethics

    Currently at 11,182 in books.
    38 in Christian Social Issues
    372 in Christian Spiritual Growth.

    That’s not bad for a not yet released book but Beth Moore’s “All My Knotted-Up Life” is #4 Most Sold this week on Amazon, just after Prince Harry’s “Spare”!

  70. Pastors and Christian speakers often act reluctant to speak about the delicate topic of sex. But does anybody believe they really don’t want to control bedroom activity? It’s an absolute obsession in many parts of Christendom, and always has been.

  71. Considering the things happening at Asbury University and related developments elsewhere, could it be that God is moving us toward revival and spiritual awakening in America? If so, the New Calvinists are going to miss it completely as they focus on worship of dead & living reformed icons, preaching aberrant belief & practice, ungodly oppression of half the human race, and writing/endorsing teachings like this.

  72. Max,

    It’s been twelve years of marriage and two openly sexist (so much so that even my complementarian husband recognized it as sexist) churches later, but we just started attending an egalitarian church. That my husband found. And wants to keep returning to. Keeping fingers crossed!

  73. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): I get it, but I still have to pause and think, and I’ve been neck deep in this stuff my whole life.
    When I was an adolescent, it made no sense at all…. and no adults could explain it to my satisfaction.

    I get it too, but still, I too had to pause and think, how much of that stuff from that when and where do I wanna’ try and extrapolate into this here and now?

  74. Muff Potter: I get it too, but still, I too had to pause and think, how much of that stuff from that when and where do I wanna’ try and extrapolate into this here and now?

    Not much, Muff. Not much.
    After all these years, I still have a problem coming to terms with the fact that the Church is being compared to a very young bride who, in most cases, would probably be under almost unbearable pressure from her family to say yes to a proposal from an older man she barely knows…… and scared senseless on her wedding night.
    Paul’s words about husbands and wives in Ephesians messes with my head on this, too. He instructs wives to respect their husbands…… just respect, no mention of love.
    In that metaphor, how can the Church, the Bride of Christ…..each soul that is a part of the Church…….. not love Jesus Christ???

  75. Sarah (aka Wild Honey): we just started attending an egalitarian church.

    Sounds wonderful.

    Regarding another theodudebro with another theodudebro book to hawk, is following Jesus a self-help book industry? And church is capitalism? Jesus tossed out the Temple marketeers.

    Is self-help the lowest common denominator in the trifecta? Satisfy self? Or self-sacrifice?

    Our three grand lifestyle choices are relatively straightforward but with enormous consequences:

    1. Invest in faithful relationship including intimacy or go for raw sex.
    2. Be fruitful & productive doing something worthwhile with your life or make money for conspicuous raw consumption with self-indulgence leading to vice.
    3. Develop purposeful community life or exhibit raw power over others (patriarchy).

    Jesus turned over the tables in the Temple, but the theodudebro book hawkers have turned those tables back up again for marketing in our churches.

    We have the great privilege of freedom of religion. How we choose our religion also has enormous possibilities and consequences.

  76. Sarah (aka Wild Honey): we just started attending an egalitarian church

    Hope that works out for you and your husband. Treating genders differently shouldn’t be any different in church than how we treat race and class … Galatians 3:28 instructs us to be one in Christ.

  77. Gus: He used to have cute hair, too.

    NeoCals look at themselves too much in the mirror. Remember the spiky hairdos they all used to have? They seem to have gotten over that, but are still stuck on skinny jeans.

  78. Ava Aaronson: Jesus turned over the tables in the Temple, but the theodudebro book hawkers have turned those tables back up again for marketing in our churches.

    But there are no examples in Scripture where Paul turned over tables. The NeoCals follow Paul, not Jesus. They don’t talk much about Jesus.

  79. Ava Aaronson: We have the great privilege of freedom of religion. How we choose our religion also has enormous possibilities and consequences.

    When the fascination in New Calvinism blows over (and it will), thousands will be left confused and disillusioned over the choice they made. Consequences.

  80. Max:
    When a coyote is caught in the teeth of a steel trap, it will chew its leg off to escape.I bet a lot of NeoCal women ensnared by “the beauty of complementarity” are about ready to do that right now.

    ALready anticipated you, Max.
    Either “The DEVIL entered into her — WITCHCRAFT!!!!” or “God Hath Predestined This Before The Foundation of the World”.

  81. Max: They seem to have gotten over that, but are still stuck on skinny jeans.

    HIPSTER Jeans.
    Do they also have the Ironic Beard, Ironic BCD Glasses, and Ironic Hairstyle (that took two hours of Ironically primping each monring) they keep hidden under an Ironic Woolcap?

  82. Max: Considering the things happening at Asbury University and related developments elsewhere, could it be that God is moving us toward revival and spiritual awakening in America?

    That assumes this Asbury thing is legit.

  83. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): Yeah. it is hard to wrap your head around a metaphor based on social practices and customs that haven’t existed in most of the world for centuries……. when a man saw a girl he liked and made a business arrangement for marriage with her pater-daddy, basically bought his bride (though in Israel, a girl was allowed to opt out).

    Some CHRISTIANS still do it that way.
    I vaguely remember some article or comment from a bride who got away.
    At the time the going price for a Submissive Christian Wifey was $2000 cash up front.
    It’s probably higher now.
    Or a discount price because Biblical Manhood groom was Daddy’s best bud.

  84. Todd Wilhelm: Since Sam reportedly doesn’t act on his same-sex attractions, does he still get pointed to Jesus?

    Said Sam’s doing a successful balancing act being Fashionably Gay while still staying tight with the Christian Purity Crowd? Virtue-signalling in both directions at once?

  85. CynthiaW.: Yes, and only his.If a wife has any sexual desires that aren’t convenient for the man, she’s “just driven by her hormones.”

    Again, straight out of PORNOGRAPHY.

    Just like Douggie ESQUIRE’s favorite Act on his Handmaid, I never heard of this happening IRL outside Pornography – except in CHRISTIAN Culture. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???

  86. Ava Aaronson: Headless Unicorn Guy: WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???

    It’s all wrong.

    What you wind up with is “Just like Porn Culture, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

    At which point there is no getting away from Porn, only whether “Do you want Godspeak and Virtue-Signalling with that?”

  87. Max: When the fascination in New Calvinism blows over (and it will), thousands will be left confused and disillusioned over the choice they made.Consequences.

    To the point of “Take Your God and Shove It!” enraged Atheism.
    When they get stuck at the Rage phase of reaction to a burn job.

  88. Max: Considering the things happening at Asbury University and related developments elsewhere, could it be that God is moving us toward revival and spiritual awakening in America? If so…

    V.V.Putin could Arm and Launch everything – now THAT would force a Big (but short-lived) Revival!
    And what matters the collateral damage, if Souls Will Be Saved and It’s All Gonna Burn anyway?

    Because that’s what it eventually comes to when you mix “Revival and Spiritual Awakening in America” (at all costs) with Rapture Ready “Christians For Nuclear War” – a combination I ran into during my time in-country in the Dispensation of Hal Lindsay. (Almost 50 years later, the damage is still there.)

  89. Headless Unicorn Guy: That’s a REAL title?

    It is. And it’s a good book.
    The authors are rescuing sex from the clumsy, male-centric, obligation preaching men like Mark Driscoll, Emerson Eggerichs (Love and Respect) and a whole hose of bad teaching that hurts marriages and married sex.

    It’s for marrieds and those who will be getting married soon.

    Yeah, out of context it does sound a bit crazy.
    But in context (the totally screwed up Evangelical sex culture of which Driscoll is only a small but loud part of) it is totally needed and the title it totally appropriate.

  90. CMT: I think this is a better title:

    “Beautiful Union: A Whole Dang Book that Nobody Asked For about a Male-Centric View of Sex that Points to a Phallic Obsession, Unlocks a Whole New Level of Creepy, and (sort of) suggests Writer Is No Good In Bed but Doesn’t Know It.”

    🙂 🙂 🙂

  91. Max,

    I believe that remark was made by the late Dr J Packer when speaking of American evangelicalism (specifically its theologians). It didn’t go down well with them.

  92. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: *sigh* This has been an extremely rough day for me. I had to put my kitty Nicki to sleep this morning after she basically collapsed overnight….the sorrow I feel from losing my feline buddy of the last decade.

    Muslin,

    I’m so sorry for your loss….

  93. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Nothing would surprise me as he is taking the same line as Vaughan Roberts,former rector of St Ebbe’s Oxford and a product of the Iwerne Camps under the tutelage of Jonathan Fletcher. Also the same as Roy Clements former pastor of Eden Baptist Church, Cambridge whose right hand man at one time was Don Carson and intern Mark Dever. It’s a small world and the relocation to the USA for Allbery gives him a louder voice in and for Revoice. ……slow march through the institutions, imo.
    You can get a flavour of their argument from this correspondence between Clements and the late John Scott.
    http://www.psa91.com/royclements03.htm

  94. Lowlandseer: theologians

    That title is tossed around too lightly in Christendom. IMO, you earn that honor through years of disciplined study, significant contributions to interpretation of Scripture, accurate exegesis, and recognition by respected peers. You don’t self-declare “theologian.”

  95. I first heard about the Butler article and book on a YouTube site called “Evangelical Dark Web”. The young man who ran the site, Ray, read some of the article, and then banished Butler to Horny Jail.

    The article was major cringe.

    But in my opinion the article was as bad as most of the content published on TGC. Why anyone would read that site is beyond me.

    Then I saw the backlash against Butler.

    It reminded me again of how vindictive and self protective Big Eva can be.

    Butler was a fair haired child in Big Eva. And just like that, he’s canceled.

  96. Max,

    As Herman Witsius wrote in 1675 – “ The Theologian, as I use the term, is one imbued with the knowledge of God and divine things, under the teaching of God himself; who celebrates his adorable perfections, not by words alone, but by the ordering of his life, and is thus entirely devoted to his Lord. Such, of old, were the holy patriarchs, the inspired prophets, the apostles by whom the world was enlightened, with some of those luminaries of the Primitive Church, whom we denominate the Fathers. Their knowledge consisted, not in the acute subtleties of curious questions, but in the devout contemplation of God and of his Christ. Their chaste and simple method of instruction did not gratify the itching ear, but by sealing the impression of sacred things on the heart, enkindled the soul with love of the truth. Their blameless life was apprehended even by their enemies, and being in correspondence with their profession, fortified their teaching with irrefragable evidence, and was a manifest token of intimate communion with the Most Holy God.”

  97. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,

    Muslin/Dee-thank you for stepping up for the single ladies (of whom I am one and I am not seeing a change in status due to my now senior citizen age). I almost choked on my coffee when I read a review of the article on a different web site.

    I am very sorry about your cat. That is hard (I have been there a couple times). My cat sends you a lot of comforting purrs and biscuits.

  98. Sowre-Sweet Dayes,

    The chapter titles read like really raunchy B romance movies or Harlequin novels. I lost it at “A River Runs Through It.” (Pull back the curtain and cue the fireworks).

  99. dee,

    As I continue read comments, and reflect, I think Max hits the nail, when he in the past ask the rhetorical question… how many times these “types” really talk about Christ, and what Christ actually said… typically not very much..
    Here in lies the “rub”…. If one really trys to follow Christ, as Christ said it meant, so much of what these “preachers” say just melts away…

  100. Lowlandseer,

    Thanks Lowlandseer. A great definition of “Theologian”! Unfortunately, very few that I have known in my long tenure in the American church could live up to that description.

  101. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Yes, it’s the real title. And I think it’s a well-intentioned book that may be really helpful to some people, in spite of what I think the messages are. We’re all the product of our own experiences.

  102. LInn: I am very sorry about your cat. That is hard (I have been there a couple times). My cat sends you a lot of comforting purrs and biscuits.

    Thank you, it’s been a rough couple of days. I worked at home today and every time I thought I heard a little sound that sounded like Nicki jumping down from something or batting something around…yeah, it was hard.

  103. CynthiaW.,

    In marinating on Butler’s “theology” more, I’m realizing he’s attributing the sacrifice to the wrong gender. At least considering the mortality rates for women due to pregnancy and childbirth complications throughout all but the most recent history, women have the risk/potential for a lot more sacrifice than men when it comes to sex.

  104. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    This is priceless. Exactly the question which needs to be asked of Mr. Butler and the whole TGC gang.

    For anyone wishing to read an excellent response to the Butler article & book I found the following to be well informed, measured and spot on:
    https://bethfelkerjones.substack.com/p/protestant-bodies-protestant-bedrooms

    Was particularly struck by Felker Jones’s discussion of ancient fertility gods and how the current “evangelical” discussion of sex looks far too much like those pagan religions. Insightful.

  105. Butler’s book and the Gospel Coalition’s damage control response show us in clear relief with no shadows what those of us at TWW have always known, that for these “reformers” the right anatomy is key to reigning and ruling. In a way I’m grateful it’s come out like this- it will make my conversations with church leaders this coming season much easier.

    Had a brilliant conversation today with some friends who have been receiving a stipend from NAMB for the past five years for leading an inner city church in a large metropolitan area. They received an email last week asking the husband to sign a statement saying he agreed with the SBC complimentarian position, and would never have a woman pastor in his church. They deleted the email without answering it.

    After laughing I tried to explain to them the background to why there were getting that email. Took over twenty minutes. They really had no idea because they’ve been too busy telling people about Jesus, training disciples and helping the poor and needy in their immediate low income neighborhood. Max, you would love this couple. They’re the kind of leaders you talk about knowing in the “old days”- ordinary servants of God who love Jesus and help other people connect with Him. Leaders like this do still exist, but of course practically no one knows them because they’re not interested in a stage or a name.

  106. Sarah (aka Wild Honey): women have the risk/potential for a lot more sacrifice than men when it comes to sex.

    Typically, a man gets a substantial, if brief, payoff of intense physical pleasure from sex acts of all kinds. That in itself makes his having sex, in any context, the exact opposite of “sacrifice.”

    Christ is the one who is sacrificed, not the one who enjoys intense physical pleasure and the relief of a powerful urge. Christ is the one whose body is consumed – “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.” – not the one who consumes another’s body.

  107. Fisher: Max, you would love this couple. They’re the kind of leaders you talk about knowing in the “old days”- ordinary servants of God who love Jesus and help other people connect with Him. Leaders like this do still exist, but of course practically no one knows them because they’re not interested in a stage or a name.

    Fisher, your friends are rare and “endangered” species in SBC these days. Not signing the complementarian statement will probably put them on NAMB’s hit list. IMB, under David Platt’s leadership, recalled 1,000 career missionaries; he cited a funding shortage, but his bud Kevin Ezell over at NAMB spent $60 million the same year to plant 1,000 churches with fresh graduates out of SBC’s NeoCal seminaries. These folks are in the business of cancelling SBC’s 150 year history of non-Calvinist belief and practice. For missionaries tossed out by the NeoCals, I’m sure Jesus will go looking for them.

  108. Fisher: Leaders like this do still exist, but of course practically no one knows them because they’re not interested in a stage or a name.

    There’s no Bizz like the Jesus Bizz.

  109. CynthiaW.,

    I don’t think you’d find a single man, probably worldwide, who could claim that a male orgasm was an “act of sacrificial giving” with a straight face.

    Except, maybe, the TGC dudebros. Tongue in cheek, of course.

  110. Fisher: Butler’s book and the Gospel Coalition’s damage control response show us in clear relief with no shadows what those of us at TWW have always known, that for these “reformers” the right anatomy is key to reigning and ruling.

    Just like Andrew Tate, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”

  111. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: At the same time, this book would tell their wives and women in general that our purpose is to, uhm, “lie back and think of England” while our husbands act out Christ to the church in the marital bed. (I can’t believe I wrote that.)

    “Christ to the church” or “Baal to Asherah (and her sacred temple prostitutes)”?

    As all the Fertility Cults that surrounded the ancient Jews can attest, humans have a real poor track record mixing the Sacred and the Erotic.

  112. CynthiaW.: Typically, a man gets a substantial, if brief, payoff of intense physical pleasure from sex acts of all kinds.

    Commonly called a “WHAM! BAM! THANK-YA MA’AM!”
    And once spent Penetrating/Colonizing/Conquering/Planting (for a couple minutes tops), the Man just pulls out, rolls over, and starts snoring.

  113. Fisher: They received an email last week asking the husband to sign a statement saying he agreed with the SBC complimentarian position, and would never have a woman pastor in his church.

    I thought NAMB and IMD can only request people in the their program to be in agreement with BFM. Never expect them to enforce specific theological view point and ptactices.

    This authoritarian behavior is very disturbing. SBC has gone to the deep end.

  114. Swore-Sweet Dayes,

    For a long time now, missionaries and church planters have been required to sign contracts stating that they agree with the BF&M 2000 in it’s entirety. For a married couple, the husband is a “missionary” while the wife is a “missionary” wife; the husband is a “church planter”, while the wife is a “missionary wife”. The Both the husband and the wife must sign contracts. The SBC hands out books for specifically for “missionary wives” and “planter wives”…… duties, expectations, etc.
    I think I still have a “planter wife” book in the attic. I need to check and see….. then, if it’s still there—— burn it!
    It really would not surprise me is some associations start requiring (or already do require) people to sign similar contracts as a membership requirement.

  115. Swore-Sweet Dayes: This authoritarian behavior is very disturbing. SBC has gone to the deep end.

    There’s gotta’ be a gene that passes control-freakism down through generations.
    I could never understand why some people can’t be happy unless they’re controlling others.

  116. I’m a bad person.
    I take a perverse pleasure in seeing TGC, Tim Keller and the rest of the reformed crowd destroy their credibility (such as it is) in real time and great detail. I’ve learned:

    a. no qualifications are required, to opine in print on God’s purposes, if you’re reformed;
    b. there is absolutely NO limit on the lunacy these people will pursue, if given the opportunity;
    c. there is a certain one-ups-man-ship operating in reformed circles that drives them further and further from Christian orthodoxy.

    God help me, except for the very real cost in confusion, disillusionment and pain of their followers, I’m rather enjoying it.

  117. Believer,

    The one thing that will get you cancelled at the TGC or in Big Eva is the expressing an opinion with force against a dominant cultural narrative.

  118. Believer: there is a certain one-ups-man-ship operating in reformed circles that drives them further and further from Christian orthodoxy

    One of the reasons why 90+% of Christendom worldwide has rejected the tenets of reformed theology and its band of leaders for the past 500 years.

  119. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Even in cases where there’s a great deal more to it, the bowels of the matter (so to speak) of sexual activity is intense physical pleasure for the man. That’s the point, as it were.

  120. Friend,

    Swore-Sweet Dayes: I thought NAMB and IMD can only request people in the their program to be in agreement with BFM. Never expect them to enforce specific theological view point and ptactices.

    This authoritarian behavior is very disturbing. SBC has gone to the deep end.

    How do we know the message came from the SBC?

  121. Max,

    I know Max, I know.
    I have never been part of the SBC or NAMB or IMB, but I have plenty of friends who have been. I take heart because after after the IMB purge I watched various workers go on to fruitful service elsewhere. SBC’s loss. Or not, because I doubt they even noticed it. Much like what Ezekiel saw in his vision when the glory lifted from the temple- the priests were still doing their abominable “worship” in the building but God was gone.

    dee,

    I’m wondering the same thing.

  122. Fisher: Much like what Ezekiel saw in his vision when the glory lifted from the temple- the priests were still doing their abominable “worship” in the building but God was gone.

    Ichabod

  123. Fisher: Was particularly struck by Felker Jones’s discussion of ancient fertility gods and how the current “evangelical” discussion of sex looks far too much like those pagan religions.

    Yes, Jones sys it well. An excerpt:
    “ The article is fundamentally pagan and idolatrous. It flirts shamelessly with the boundary between Creator and creature, overstepping often, emanating panentheist spirits and demonic Zeus-like false gods. Idols exchange “the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles” (Romans 1:23). Figuring God as a sexualized human male is idolatry. It’s a insult to the glory of the immortal God.

    While pagan cults used sex for ritual and worship, Israel and the church condemned the practice. Israel was to be different from its neighbors by refusing the making of idols, and a lot of those Canaanite idols were phallic symbols and fertility goddesses.”

  124. Does he not know that cows, dogs, etc. do sex the same way? Is that all sacred metaphor, generosity, hospitality, and sanctuary of their very selves?

  125. Raswhiting: “Figuring God as a sexualized human male is idolatry. It’s an insult to the glory of the immortal God. While pagan cults used sex for ritual and worship, Israel and the church condemned the practice.” (Felker Jones)

    The root of complementarian use and abuse of women can be traced to pagan culture. The Church of the Living God – the Kingdom of Heaven in the here and now – needs to condemn such theology.

  126. Fisher: after the IMB purge I watched various workers go on to fruitful service elsewhere. SBC’s loss.

    Recalling 1,000 foreign missionaries stripped SBC of the little that remained of genuine evangelism in Jesus’ name within the denomination. Not surprising that many of those Christian workers remained fruitful … when SBC threw them out, Jesus went looking for them.

  127. Max: The root of complementarian use and abuse of women can be traced to pagan culture. The Church of the Living God – the Kingdom of Heaven in the here and now – needs to condemn such theology.

    Who are the pagans, in your view?

    Everybody should respect boundaries.

    We can point out abuse and bad thinking without maligning non-Christians as “so much worse than we are.”

  128. I agree with Sheila Gregoire about misdiagnosing the problem. Do you see anywhere in that “apology” where they express remorse specifically to the women harmed by this book’s broken theology, and their endorsement of it? I don’t. The word “women” doesn’t even appear in it. The message is: Sorry, we failed in our editorial review gatekeeping.

    But they bent over backward to say this:

    “And thank you for your patience while we took the time to […] care for our friend Josh […] Josh remains a beloved brother and friend whom we respect and care deeply about”

  129. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    I know that IMB candidates need to sign an agreement on BFM (whatever the current vision). I did not know IMB assign specific roles between husband and wife. My brother-in-law’s family was IMB missionaries and never heard them mention about the handbooks. Thanks for the info.

  130. Swore-Sweet Dayes,

    I’m not sure about handbooks for the IMB “missionary wives” —— I think they get books.
    I know for a fact that “planter wives” get them. Hubby and I went to Louisville to attend 3 day church planter conference in Nov. 2011, and every woman there (yeah, all three of us) were given the books.

    That conference really made an impression on me. Richard Land was there, he shook hands and spoke with all the men…. ignored the women. I was supposedly part of a team with hubby and 3 other men. When we broke out into group projects/discussions, I was completely shut out. One day I was even crowded out at the team lunch table – had to go sit elsewhere.
    On day 3, I took a Louis L’Amour book with me. I scooted my chair over 8 or 10 feet so I could curl up against a wall and read.
    Nobody noticed. That laid the foundation for my SBC exit.

  131. Honestly, a Keller endorsement immediately makes a book/author/speaker suspect to me. I don’t understand the fascination with Keller – a guy who sounds orthodox one day and completely heterodox the next in his attempt to appeal to intellectual elites and secular power brokers.

  132. bendeni: “And thank you for your patience while we took the time to […] care for our friend Josh […] Josh remains a beloved brother and friend whom we respect and care deeply about”

    Very true.
    But they still threw him under the bus, publicly, as the whipping boy for the push back they got.
    Josh was just saying what they say, knocking it up a notch, Piper style, in order to get a rise out of people. It got a rise, all right. Not sure it was the one he/they all wanted.

    But you’re right. Josh was at least worth mentioning with love.
    The women were not worth mentioning at all.

    Except by the likes of D. Wilson who call the women she-bullies and called the TGC guys pencil necks for caving to the she-bullies.

  133. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): On day 3, I took a Louis L’Amour book with me. I scooted my chair over 8 or 10 feet so I could curl up against a wall and read.

    I’m bettin’ Louis L’Amour’s stuff was wayyyy more engaging than any of their books.

  134. Muff Potter,

    Yep! I like western movies/tv shows and L’Amour books. So, I was quite happy in my own little world. I have no clue what went on at the conference on day 3 and I don’t care.

  135. Right before I responded to Muff, I went up into the attic and checked ……. I still have the NAMB church planting stuff……
    even my official “Certificate of Completion”, in spite of Louis L’Amour and the Sacketts!

  136. Raswhiting: “Israel was to be different from its neighbors by refusing the making of idols, and a lot of those Canaanite idols were phallic symbols and fertility goddesses.”

    Christian architecture over the centuries has featured spires, towers, Gothic vaulting, Moorish arches, and various other suggestive shapes. Even when churches reject fancy architecture as idolatrous, they still tend to elevate the almighty male figurehead.

    And that’s leaving aside Eve and Mary as fertility symbols.

    Personally, I’d rather admit that Judaism and Christianity have unique histories, and that both religions were influenced by the societies around them, even the religions they disavowed. I grew up in a strict Protestant church that rejected idolatry—spare, clean architecture, no statues, no representational art at all. Still, my goodness, the design of our free-standing bell tower…!

  137. Andy: I don’t understand the fascination with Keller

    or Piper … or Mohler … or all of the NeoCal elite, for that matter

  138. Friend: Who are the pagans, in your view?

    My comment was in reference to the “pagan cults” of Bible days mentioned in Raswhiting’s comment … those who were condemned in Scripture by Moses as Israel moved toward the Promised Land: “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations.” I would never call anyone “pagan” these days, although some religions expressions border on “abominable practices.”

  139. I note that he is still saying that he is a Fellow of Keller Centre for Cultural Apologetics.
    Is he just slow or is his resignation only for “a season” before being restored to that position?

  140. Max,

    I know you love to say that Max, but remember this –

    “ The population of the colonies at the time of the Revolution was about three million. Historian Paul R. Carlson estimates that of that number: “900,000 were of Scotch or Scotch-Irish origin. 600,000 were Puritan English. [O]ver 400,000 were of Dutch, German Reformed, and Huguenot descent. That is to say, two thirds of our Revolutionary forefathers were trained in the school of Calvin.”

    Presbyterian clergy joined the Revolution in droves. As Carlson observed: “When Cornwallis was driven back to ultimate retreat and surrender at Yorktown, all of the colonels of the Colonial Army but one were Presbyterian elders. It is estimated that more than one half of all the soldiers and officers of the American Army during the Revolution were Presbyterian.”
    “ Famous American historian George Bancroft summed it up this way:
    The Revolution of 1776, so far as it was affected by religion, was a Presbyterian measure. It was a natural outgrowth of the principles which the Presbyterianism of the Old World planted in her sons, the English Puritans, the Scotch Covenanters, the French Huguenots, the Dutch Calvinists, and the Presbyterians of Ulster.”

    Looks like the Presbyterians did a lot to help establish your great country with one of them, John Witherspoon – the former minister of the church in my small town – contributing to and signing the Declaration of Independence.

  141. Lowlandseer: I know you love to say that Max

    I also love to say this. During my long tenure as a Southern Baptist, I knew and worshiped with many classical Calvinists. I found them to be civil in their discourse and respectful of other expressions of faith. I counted some of them friends. Today’s hyper-Calvinists and New Calvinists are a totally different tribe than “Old” Calvinists. Perhaps that’s why there was a drift away from reformed theology over the past centuries, as the hyper and neo threads of Calvinism became more prominent. My comments are typically focused on the New Calvinists who are disrupting the Church through stealth, deception, and aberrant belief and practice. I may not agree with the tenets of reformed theology, but classical Calvinists don’t cause me the heartache that their neo-brethren do as they run roughshod over God’s children, thinking that they alone hold the key to truth.

  142. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    “If sex is representative of Christ and the church, why do animals have sex and what does it mean to and for them???”
    ++++++++++++

    i once saw 2 snails doing it. saw the donger of generosity, even. it was weird. but maybe jen pollock michel would have been in tears overcome with meaning of snail bodies in sexual union.

  143. Lowlandseer: principles which the Presbyterianism of the Old World planted in her sons … Looks like the Presbyterians did a lot to help establish your great country

    I wish we could say that about the New Calvinists and their New World. I’m sure that stealth and deception were not principles planted in the sons of yesteryear. Praise God for all who helped established our great country … it’s a battle on numerous fronts these days to keep it that way.

  144. Max: I wish we could say that about the New Calvinists and their New World. I’m sure that stealth and deception were not principles planted in the sons of yesteryear.

    In the words of the Prophet MC 900 ft Jesus, “Truth. Is. Out Of Style.”

  145. Max: Today’s hyper-Calvinists and New Calvinists are a totally different tribe than “Old” Calvinists.

    CHAIRMAN CALVIN’S RED GUARD.
    If that reference is too old for you, CHRISTIAN TALIBAN.

  146. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    So many evangelicals do not understand the difference between metaphor, allusion, and allegory. All metaphors are untenable when pushed too far, and metaphors are not allegories. They are more like parables, meant to delineate a single point or idea.

  147. Nancy2(aka Kevlar): On day 3, I took a Louis L’Amour book with me. I scooted my chair over 8 or 10 feet so I could curl up against a wall and read.

    You might like Stephen King’s Gunslinger series.

  148. apocalipstick: So many evangelicals do not understand the difference between metaphor, allusion, and allegory.

    List Saruman Curunir, “they have minds of wheels and metal” that can only see SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! FACT! FACT! FACT!

    “When you point at something, the dog sniffs your finger. To a dog, a finger is a finger and that is that.” — C.S.Lewis

    Muff Potter:
    apocalipstick,

    Which is why I find the Church as ‘Bride of Christ’ metaphor creepy.

    Especially the “Bridal Mysticism” of the late Medieval/early Renaissance, which described spiritual ecstasy in full-honk Erotic language — “Thrust me through with Thy Divine Love! Fill me with Thy Holy Spirit as with Child!”

    Like a Twilight fangirl gushingand fantasizing over Sparkling Eddie, with all the OCD enthusiasm of those who’d been sworn to celibacy at age six.

    Once again, humans have a lousy track record of mixing the Sacred with the Erotic.

  149. CynthiaW.,

    i learned snails can do both functions, and have not 1 but 2 dongers, that come from their heads, no less…

    yeah, i can just see TGC men taking several months to dream up some way to tie this in to God & Jesus– as a guise for making it about them. and they’d be totally serious & think they were geniuses.

    (pure comedy gold, that one)

  150. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    Serious answer to your scoffing question: all of creation reflects and expresses the perfect Communion of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.- every living thing in creation according to and limited by its Nature.

    Birds, bees, flowers, trees, animals reproduce.

    Man procreates by virtue of his intellect, will and capacity to love gifted in Human Nature.

    When we reject that gifting and merely copulate like an beast, it is an act lower than a beast.

  151. Muff Potter,

    Creepy?? Oh my…

    I have no prior knowledge of this organization or author, but Jesus as the Bridegroom is solid orthodox Christian theology built on solid orthodox Jewish theology.

    The Church didn’t create it. It even pre-dates St. Paul and Jesus.

    Jesus is the *fulfillment* of the prophetic promise marked in too many texts to list, but including…
    -Ezekiel 16:8, 15-22: The Betrothal of God and Israel; The Sin of Spiritual Adultery

    -Isaiah 54-8, 10: Your Maker is Your Husband

    -Hosea 2:15-20: Prophecy of a Future Marriage Covenant

    -Song of Songs 1-8: The Love Story of God & Israel

    -John 3:28-30: John the Baptist “Friend of the Bridegroom” (“Shoshone”)

    -Ephesians 5:21:33 – Christ “washes” His Bride with “Water” and the “Word”

    -Revelation 19:6-9: The Wedding Supper of the Lamb

    -Revelation 21:1-22: The New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ

    A trustworthy biblical treatment of creeps is Jesus the Bridegroom by Dr. Brant Pitre.

  152. CynthiaW.:
    Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Even in cases where there’s a great deal more to it, the bowels of the matter (so to speak) of sexual activity is intense physical pleasure for the man.That’s the point, as it were.

    Where’s the COMPANIONSHIP in that?

    Paraphrasing the prophet Dilbert, you can get Intense Physical Pleasure (Orgasm) without the participation of any other physical human. So why even have Widdle Christian Wifey to lie back and accept?

  153. Gus: straight face

    RCC clergy and movement / quango operatives.

    This blasphemes the souls of boys not only who attend churches but from secular agnostic families who increasingly overhear this through dominionism.

    Instead of leaving their private affairs to be their private affairs.

  154. Michael in UK: Instead of … affairs

    Correction:

    Instead of leaving private affairs to be the private affairs of those involved / affected upholding consideration uppermost.